f



RISC OS in schools

Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
anything about it on the dfes site.
-- 
Kevin Corney, Emley, West Yorkshire, HD8 9RG
 Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten. - W. Ulbricht
0
Kevin9813 (9)
4/13/2005 4:39:32 PM
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Hi,

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Kevin Corney wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
> anything about it on the dfes site.

The claim is possibly an oversimplification of the rules: it could be that
RISC OS may not live up to the standards set by the DfES and schools are
urged or told to drop it.

However, some independent schools are still happily using RISC OS, and won
school that uses RISC OS for deaf children recently a recognised IT award.
You may wish to chat to the staff interviewed in this article:

 http://www.drobe.co.uk/features/artifact1269.html
 http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1294.html

Most schools complained of the lack of a decent web browser. That may soon
be rectified:

 http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1297.html

Although I can't directly answer your question, I hope this helps,

-- 
Chris Williams | http://www.diodesign.co.uk/

0
esvmd (244)
4/13/2005 4:57:05 PM
"Kevin Corney" <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com...
> Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
> anything about it on the dfes site.
Interesting question - I suspect that there isn't a position. However if you
look at the current requirements/demands and sample teaching units, it's not
just a web browser problem. Many of the sample teaching units assume pupils
will use MS Office. As part of the KS3 strategy process I have received
comments like "pupils using non-standard software" (It happened to be
Textease studio running on Windows.)

However the major problem is the online testing at the end of KS3. RM
received the contract to develop the system, and have set "standards". In
the pilot stage it's not even possible for Mac users to take part in the
project.

A really interesting question would be to ask how long it takes in a school
that has moved from RISC OS to Windows for pupils to reach the same level of
independence, competency and breadth of activity as they had previously. I'm
at 2 years and counting! Again the KS3 strategy, and it's rigid
interpretation of modelling = spreadsheet hasn't helped.

Of course the schools that spend their budget  on MS Office are then
frequently unable or unwilling to invest in other software. Best of luck if
you want to try and use OpenOffice or Star Office - "it can't be any good if
it's free"

One way of living with the - almost - inevitable is to identify your
favourite RISC OS apps that have been re-written for Windows and argue for
these! As an example, an platform upgrade to a PC version of Ovation Pro
(from the RISC OS version) cost my school 40UKP.

If I was in the position of re-equipping a school I suspect I would now
advocate the Mac route.

Regards

David


0
David
4/13/2005 5:48:07 PM
In message <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>
          Kevin Corney <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct

[minor snip]

Given the present government's enthusiasm for all things American, and
noting the warmth with which our Prime Minister periodically welcomes Bill
Gates, I would not be at all surprised. Education in our country is
basically viewed as training nowadays, anyway, so why depart from the
'industry standard'?

George

-- 
0
4/13/2005 6:03:34 PM
In article <5b82125b4d.acld75@tiscali.co.uk>, george
<george.greenfield@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com> Kevin Corney
>           <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> > governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> > allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct

> [minor snip]

> Given the present government's enthusiasm for all things American, and
> noting the warmth with which our Prime Minister periodically welcomes
> Bill Gates, I would not be at all surprised. Education in our country is
> basically viewed as training nowadays, anyway, so why depart from the
> 'industry standard'?

I think the problem isn't so much that you can't use RISC OS, it's that
some gov depts have purchase deals that prevent deployment of RISC OS so,
as old units die, they can only be replaced by specific systems agreed
under these central agreements, and those agreements effectively mean
MuckySnot. No Linux, No Apple and certainly no RISC OS. HMG keep making
encouraging noises about allowing choice and competition into the process,
but still ends up making these deals with the beast of Redmond.

The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually doing
the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools for the job.

-- 
 //\  // Chika <zvlhxv@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
//  \//  Hitting Googlespammers with hyper-hammers! 

.... I am. Therefore, I think.  I think.
0
miyuki1 (1402)
4/13/2005 6:26:59 PM
In article
<Pine.SOL.4.44.0504131751260.6418-100000@primrose.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
   Chris Williams <esvmd@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> Most schools complained of the lack of a decent web browser. That may
> soon be rectified:

>  http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1297.html

There's little chance it will get round most of the problems RISC OS users
find like the lack of additions or plug ins like Java etc or streaming
audio - needed for example for BBC sites.

-- 
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
4/13/2005 6:31:21 PM
In article
<Pine.SOL.4.44.0504131751260.6418-100000@primrose.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
   Chris Williams <esvmd@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hi,

> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Kevin Corney wrote:

> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At
> > a governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no
> > longer allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I
> > can't find anything about it on the dfes site.

> The claim is possibly an oversimplification of the rules: it could be
> that RISC OS may not live up to the standards set by the DfES and
> schools are urged or told to drop it.

As far as I know there is no such rule from the DfES. If there is, then
we're currently breaking it :-)
and we've got an Ofsted inspection in a few weeks...

[Snip]

Sue

-- 
Remove .cut.invalid from email address to reply.
0
clamp2401 (68)
4/13/2005 6:41:56 PM
> The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> for the job.

Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS
?

-- 
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.millport.net
0
sandy5822 (221)
4/13/2005 7:28:56 PM
In message <5b82125b4d.acld75@tiscali.co.uk>
          george <george.greenfield@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>
>           Kevin Corney <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> > governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> > allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct
> 
> [minor snip]
> 
> Given the present government's enthusiasm for all things American, and
> noting the warmth with which our Prime Minister periodically welcomes Bill
> Gates, I would not be at all surprised. Education in our country is
> basically viewed as training nowadays, anyway, so why depart from the
> 'industry standard'?
> 
> George
> 
DfES does not advocate any operating system. Their interest is in
children's achievements in using ICT.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/13/2005 7:55:14 PM
On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:

> 
> > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> > doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> > for the job.
> 
> Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS
> ?

Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or would be
allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to be on a sound
commercial basis, and only we can provide that.

If you want to quiz the candidates about anything, ask them if they beleive
in the right of presumption of innocence, the right not to be detained or
restricted without trial, and right not to be fingerprinted like a common
criminal and every aspect of your life cataloged by the government for the
bogus ID scheme.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
4/13/2005 8:10:59 PM
> > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk
> > > actually doing the work aren't the ones making the decision
> > > about the tools for the job.
> > 
> > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a
> > British OS ?

> Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or
> would be allowed to do to promote it.

I do not understand this comment - why would our Government not be
allowed to do anything in our Country?

> Any future for RISC OS has to be on a sound commercial basis, and
> only we can provide that.

We?

> If you want to quiz the candidates about anything, ask them if they
> beleive in the right of presumption of innocence, the right not to
> be detained or restricted without trial, and right not to be
> fingerprinted like a common criminal and every aspect of your life
> cataloged by the government for the bogus ID scheme.

Parts of this I understand and agree/disagree with but I feel that it
is very OT for this ng.

Since you castigate people regularly for misusing the ng I think that
you should withdraw the statement - after correcting the grammatical
and spelling errors.

-- 
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.millport.net
0
sandy5822 (221)
4/13/2005 8:42:51 PM
In article <4d5b160558clamp@dsl.pipex.com.cut.invalid>,
   Sue <clamp@dsl.pipex.com.cut.invalid> wrote:
> In article
> <Pine.SOL.4.44.0504131751260.6418-100000@primrose.csv.warwick.ac.uk>,
>    Chris Williams <esvmd@warwick.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Hi,

> > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Kevin Corney wrote:

> > > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At
> > > a governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no
> > > longer allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I
> > > can't find anything about it on the dfes site.

> > The claim is possibly an oversimplification of the rules: it could be
> > that RISC OS may not live up to the standards set by the DfES and
> > schools are urged or told to drop it.

> As far as I know there is no such rule from the DfES. If there is, then
> we're currently breaking it :-)
> and we've got an Ofsted inspection in a few weeks...

As I understand it, the only systems that can be counted in a school's
pupil:computer ratio are systems that meet the minimum technical
specification. Inevitably this is based upon a pc system with its RAM
hungry OS and high speed processors. I can't remember the exact numbers but
I think we can only count machines which are in excess of 800 Mhz with a
minimum of 128 mb RAM. The Governement have set a target, I believe, of
achieving a pupil:computer ratio of 8:1 by sometime soon.
Its not that you can't use RISC OS or any other operating system, just the
machine it is run upon has to meet the criteria if it is counted in the
pupil:computer ratio. 
Of course as long as a school can meet its pupil:computer ratio, then it
can have any number of other systems, and in my opinion, more diversity of
ICT tools can only improve childrens' understanding.

HTH
John

-- 
John Myers

0
johncmyers (28)
4/13/2005 8:47:14 PM
In article <4dbb1c5b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
   David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> DfES does not advocate any operating system. Their interest is in
> children's achievements in using ICT.

Yet they ignore the fact that computers in schools are not simply put
there as ICT training tools. They are used for many different things, yet
still the people holding the purse strings regard computers in the same
way as they once regarded typewriters. Once upon a time there was any
amount of new ideas for teaching people (not just children either) all
manner of things with the aid of computers, yet there appears to be this
persistant view that all you do with them is teach people to use M$
Office. 

This is more than just banging the drum for a British OS, this is a
serious perception problem on the part of people who are supposed to be in
charge of giving our next generation the best possible start. I don't
believe that the current thrust within educational acquisition is geared
up for that. (PLEASE somebody prove me wrong!)

-- 
 //\  // Chika <zvlhxv@penfuarg.bet.hx. - ROT13>
//  \//  Hitting Googlespammers with hyper-hammers! 

.... No artist sees reality, if he did he wouldn't be an artist.
0
miyuki1 (1402)
4/13/2005 8:47:43 PM
In article <1113414488.45621.0@doris.uk.clara.net>,
   David Carmichael <davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:

> "Kevin Corney" <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com...
> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> > governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> > allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't
> > find anything about it on the dfes site.
> Interesting question - I suspect that there isn't a position. However if
> you look at the current requirements/demands and sample teaching units,
> it's not just a web browser problem. Many of the sample teaching units
> assume pupils will use MS Office. As part of the KS3 strategy process I
> have received comments like "pupils using non-standard software" (It
> happened to be Textease studio running on Windows.)

It seems pointless to me to train and test kids with specific software as
by the time they get out into the big wide world it will of all changed
anyway. They should be concentrating on general computing skills and 
basic understanding, things that are achievable with any relatively modern
system. Kids of today are going to have even more problems adapting to
other systems than I did trying to cope with Windows after being DOS
trained at college, at least using RISC OS at school helped cushion the
fall.


Regards
Ian K

0
news9662 (281)
4/13/2005 8:54:26 PM
In article <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>,
   Kevin Corney <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
> anything about it on the dfes site.

I suggest that you speak to the person who made that statement and ask
where they got the information from. Perhaps you could suggest that, as the
information is almost certainly going to be wrong, the companies whose
business they are damaging might want to take legal action.

RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well as
Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.

And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only interested
in delivery of the NC.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/13/2005 9:38:03 PM
In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
<news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:

> > 
> > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> > > doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> > > for the job.
> > 
> > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to quiz
> > all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS ?

> Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or would
> be allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to be on a
> sound commercial basis, and only we can provide that.

Rubbish.
The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an unreasonable
and illegal preference to Windows systems.

[Snip]

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/13/2005 9:41:26 PM
On 13 Apr 2005 John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>>> The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually doing
>>>> the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools for the
>>>> job.
>>> 
>>> Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to quiz
>>> all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS ?
> 
>> Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or would be
>> allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to be on a sound
>> commercial basis, and only we can provide that.
> 
> Rubbish.

You beleive RISC OS doesn't have a future on a commercial?

> The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an unreasonable
> and illegal preference to Windows systems.

Thats a separate issue that has nothing to do with RISC OS.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
4/13/2005 10:17:38 PM
On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:

**** Please DO NOT snip attrribution lines ****

> > > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk
> > > > actually doing the work aren't the ones making the decision
> > > > about the tools for the job.
> > > 
> > > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a
> > > British OS ?
> 
> > Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or
> > would be allowed to do to promote it.
> 
> I do not understand this comment - why would our Government not be
> allowed to do anything in our Country?

EU.
 
> > Any future for RISC OS has to be on a sound commercial basis, and
> > only we can provide that.
> 
> We?

Who else?

>> If you want to quiz the candidates about anything, ask them if they
>> beleive in the right of presumption of innocence, the right not to be
>> detained or restricted without trial, and right not to be fingerprinted
>> like a common criminal and every aspect of your life cataloged by the
>> government for the bogus ID scheme.
> 
> Parts of this I understand and agree/disagree with but I feel that it is
> very OT for this ng.

I am not proposing to discuss any of those matters further.
 
> Since you castigate people regularly for misusing the ng I think that
> you should withdraw the statement - after correcting the grammatical
> and spelling errors.

I think you should either refrain from such petty nonsense or go in to
politics.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
4/13/2005 10:22:09 PM
In article <4d5b267488john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> > > > doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> > > > for the job.
> > > 
> > > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to quiz
> > > all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS ?
> 
> > Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or would
> > be allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to be on a
> > sound commercial basis, and only we can provide that.
> 
> Rubbish.
> The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an unreasonable
> and illegal preference to Windows systems.
> 
As there is no longer any mainstream manufacturer in a large scale of
RISC OS computers, there is very little opportunity to prefer anything
else. Having been shafted comprehensively by Apple and Acorn, all I can
say is that the support I am getting from the PC manufacturer for whom
we are a reseller partner is streets ahead of anything either of them
gave us. Ditto Microsoft.

I'm quite happy to tell people I still use a RiscPC daily, and most of
them see no issue with that. Nor do I have any problem supporting
integrated systems in schools with a high percentage of RISC OS boxes,
but we ain't going to be selling many more. To be brutally honest, the
only additional RISC OS machines the two large secondary schools we
work with who use RISC OS have had have been recycled from other
schools. With the honourable exception of one Iyonix each, though those
came direct from Castle.

As far as Open Source goes, there's no demand worth talking about, and
sod all decent educational software resource base.

And I really do not think it matters a tinker's damn what the ethnic
origin of software is. All this "British" business is nonsense. Your
empire went a long time ago, guys, get used to it. If Castle and
Tematic are out there flogging RISC OS as an embedded OS, I can
guarantee that some nostalgic nonsense about its cultural origin has
very little to do with the sales pitch. People buy stuff because it
does what they want at a price they want to pay.

The greatest joke around at the minute is that I'm now selling vanilla
Windows systems successfully against RM. Once, we were told "We're
buying RM, because the Acorn boxes don't have Windows like they do at
home". Now, of course, RM CC3 bears very little resemblance to Windows
at all, and taking their business is a pleasure.

Whinging about Bill Gates won't achieve anything. Go create. And do it
in a way that means people can actually sell what you create.

All IMHO, of course.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/13/2005 10:30:11 PM
In article <4d5b1f06d4johncmyers@ntlworld.com>,
   John Myers <johncmyers@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I think we can only count machines which are in excess of 800 Mhz with a
> minimum of 128 mb RAM. The Governement have set a target, I believe, of
> achieving a pupil:computer ratio of 8:1 by sometime soon. Its not that
> you can't use RISC OS or any other operating system, just the machine it
> is run upon has to meet the criteria if it is counted in the
> pupil:computer ratio. 

VA ?

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
SW_NOSPAM (1409)
4/13/2005 10:42:31 PM
In article <e2c4295b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
<news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 13 Apr 2005 John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> > <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> >> On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:
> > 
> >>> 
> >>>> The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> >>>> doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> >>>> for the job.
> >>> 
> >>> Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> >>> quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British
> >>> OS ?
> > 
> >> Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or
> >> would be allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to
> >> be on a sound commercial basis, and only we can provide that.
> > 
> > Rubbish.

> You beleive RISC OS doesn't have a future on a commercial?

Yes. But you misunderstand the problem - as stated below.

> > The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an
> > unreasonable and illegal preference to Windows systems.

> Thats a separate issue that has nothing to do with RISC OS.

As that unreasonable and illegal preference severely damages the RISC OS
market I wonder if you consider anything to be relevant to RISC OS. If
ignorant or corrupt people hadn't made false and damaging statements in
school governors' meetings the RISC OS market would now be 10 or 100 times
larger than it is at present.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/13/2005 11:56:21 PM
In article <4d5b1f06d4johncmyers@ntlworld.com>, John Myers
<johncmyers@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> I can't remember the exact numbers but I think we can only count
> machines which are in excess of 800 Mhz with a minimum of 128 mb RAM.
> The Governement have set a target, I believe, of achieving a
> pupil:computer ratio of 8:1 by sometime soon.

When the government asks silly questions the appropriate response is to
give the appropriate answer:
"Whilst you appear to have sent us the criteria for only one computer
system we can confirm that the school has 112 computers that match the
equivalent standard as laid down by the department."

Head teachers get to be head teachers by being able to misanswer questions
in their sleep.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 12:23:14 AM
In message <4d5b262563john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>,
>    Kevin Corney <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> > governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> > allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
> > anything about it on the dfes site.
> 
> I suggest that you speak to the person who made that statement and ask
> where they got the information from. Perhaps you could suggest that, as the
> information is almost certainly going to be wrong, the companies whose
> business they are damaging might want to take legal action.
> 
> RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well as
> Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.
> 
> And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only interested
> in delivery of the NC.
> 
Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without
the ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia
Director and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that can.
As I've said many times before, that's all we need to be back at the
races!
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/14/2005 6:05:50 AM
In article <4d5b2226fdnews@iank.org.uk>,
   Ian K (N) <news@iank.org.uk> wrote:
> It seems pointless to me to train and test kids with specific software as
> by the time they get out into the big wide world it will of all changed
> anyway.

Indeed. Things seem to change all the time - in my day the phrase would
*have* been something like
"by the time they get out into the big wide world it will *have* all
changed anyway."

even in the playground...

0
4/14/2005 6:50:39 AM
In message <1113414488.45621.0@doris.uk.clara.net>
          "David Carmichael" <davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:

> Of course the schools that spend their budget  on MS Office are then
> frequently unable or unwilling to invest in other software. Best of luck if
> you want to try and use OpenOffice or Star Office - "it can't be any good if
> it's free"

StarOffice isn't free, though.  It comes in a nice box!

"StarOffice 7 Office Suite is the world's leading office productivity suite
on Linux and the Solaris OS, and the leading alternative office suite on
Windows.

StarOffice software is affordable, easy to use, and based on open standards.
It offers word processing, spreadsheet, presentation, drawing, and database
capabilities. Its familiar interface enables quick productivity and results
for the business user, and elegant output for the consumer."

Sun sell it at, for example, 8400 ukp for a 250 RTU licence (whatever RTU
stands for, "Run Time User"?).  Licences go from 25 to 10000 RTUs.  I think
schools would also be buying the right for the users to have the software at
home or on a laptop at no extra charge, thus saving parents and teachers
money.  There's probably special licences for schools, I didn't look.

Simon

-- 
Eiffel and RISC OS - Better alternatives.
0
4/14/2005 7:51:47 AM
In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
responded to:

> > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well
> > as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.
> > 
> > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > 
> Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without the
> ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia Director
> and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that can. As I've
> said many times before, that's all we need to be back at the races!

Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:

1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been altered to
suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and adding items that
only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they haven't yet managed to
change the subject to WCT.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 9:00:16 AM
In article <4d5b1f06d4johncmyers@ntlworld.com>, John Myers
<johncmyers@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>  I can't remember the exact numbers but
> I think we can only count machines which are in excess of 800 Mhz with a
> minimum of 128 MB RAM.

  Here we go back on the old 'How do you measure performance Gig' I have a
Mac well under 800MHz and my Faithful RPC even further under.  Both are
faster at bringing up a Word document than my 1600MHz PC!!!  The RPC is
slower on printing and burning CD's - but most everywhere else it is highly
efficient.


  John


-- 
 __  __  __  __      __ ___   _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ mijassoft@argonet.co.uk


0
mijassoft (73)
4/14/2005 9:38:04 AM
In article <ant132211bc89GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
<michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> Whinging about Bill Gates won't achieve anything. Go create. And do it
> in a way that means people can actually sell what you create.
>

  My pet dream is that someone would come up with even a tiny fraction of
the cash poured into M$ software by officialdom in order to finance Browsers
etc on RISCOS.  Considering the relative size of the market and the current
cash available RISCOS software writers have created wonders.  With even a
small cash boost they could do far better than the opposition.

  I spend almost no time on the Internet using a PC, prefering to use RISCOS
- but I spend hours preventing and fixing the havoc wrought by bugs on my PC
but almost no time cleaning up my RPC.
  

  John

 

-- 
 __  __  __  __      __ ___   _____________________________________________
|__||__)/ __/  \|\ ||_   |   /
|  ||  \\__/\__/| \||__  |  /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
___________________________/ mijassoft@argonet.co.uk


0
mijassoft (73)
4/14/2005 9:48:02 AM
In article <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> responded to:

> > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as
> > > well as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are
> > > lying.
> > > 
> > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > 
> > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without
> > the ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia
> > Director and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that
> > can. As I've said many times before, that's all we need to be back at
> > the races!

> Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:

> 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been
> altered to suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and
> adding items that only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they
> haven't yet managed to change the subject to WCT.

Could you please tell us all which items Windows fails to deliver the
national curriculum and what alterations have been made to the NC to
accomodate items which Windows can't do.

Specifics please and not generalities.

And also up to date ones.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/14/2005 11:01:28 AM
In article <4d5b267488john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:

> > > 
> > > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk actually
> > > > doing the work aren't the ones making the decision about the tools
> > > > for the job.
> > > 
> > > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British
> > > OS ?

> > Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or would
> > be allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to be on a
> > sound commercial basis, and only we can provide that.

> Rubbish. The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an
> unreasonable and illegal preference to Windows systems.

I cannot think offhand what the superlative for rubbish might be without
resorting to Anglo Saxon.

Your arguments are just so full of holes, without substance or foundation,
it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

Teachers themselves set the IT agenda by promulgating the notion that
learning and, therefore, teaching should not be the *damned hard work*
that learning actually is and that all teaching and learning could and
should be done through play.

This as much as anything set the form for IT. The notion was also pushed
that the internet was *the way* to all knowledge and learning. In point of
fact there are, demonstrably, huge holes in the the internet knowledge
base and a large proportion of what is there is questionable. Pupils and
their teachers do not have, and are not taught, how to discriminate
between fact and faction.

I illustrate this by two examples,

I have had mathematics teachers seriously argue that precision did not
matter in calculations and that approximation was completely acceptable.

I was told by a senior physics teacher that ship's compasses needed
compensation because ships were riveted in their construction. The fact
that all ships for, probably, the last 45 years have been of all welded
construction seemed to be completely outside his knowledge.

As a retired engineer, with marine and nuclear experience, this just fills
me full of dread for the future of our technology base.

Teachers themselves did not and do not have exposure to the commercial and
technical environment which would and should have enabled them to fight
their corner. They work in what is clearly a very narrow culture and are
also quite clearly oblivious to that fact. The school governors, of
course, by and large, have had that commercial experience but without
exposure to the teaching environment. Teachers were and are in consequence
unable to fight their corner. It the teachers who have the responsiblity,
no one else.

My argument is no where complete, but the sham notion that IT could be
used to fill the gap in the failure to teach literacy and other skills,
which would be the cure of all teachings ills, was put forward by teachers
themselves and contributed greatly to the basic failure to teach literacy
effectively.

Certain commercial interests merely latched on to that notion.

With regard to the failure of RISC OS in that environment, the fault very
clearly lies at the door of Acorn's management, whose appalling decisions
led directly to their failure to compete in the educational environment
and so led to the, quite inevitable, consequence, Acorn's demise, no one
else was responsible.

The tick box, "toys are us" culture in teaching has led directly to the
quite inevitable, appalling, literacy situation where, I think, 30% of all
children leaving school can barely read and are virtually unemployable.
Don't take my word for it, read what the director of the CBI says *every
year*, without fail.

I'm truly sorry for the kids, they just have no idea how far they have
been sold short, or by whom.

Rant over, but very far from complete!

0
bbailey (247)
4/14/2005 11:07:02 AM
Hi

"druck" <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:cf2e2a5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net...
> On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:
>
> **** Please DO NOT snip attrribution lines ****
>
> > > > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk
> > > > > actually doing the work aren't the ones making the decision
> > > > > about the tools for the job.
> > > >
> > > > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > > > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a
> > > > British OS ?
> >
> > > Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or
> > > would be allowed to do to promote it.
> >
> > I do not understand this comment - why would our Government not be
> > allowed to do anything in our Country?
>
> EU.
>
> > > Any future for RISC OS has to be on a sound commercial basis, and
> > > only we can provide that.
> >
> > We?
>
> Who else?
>
> >> If you want to quiz the candidates about anything, ask them if they
> >> beleive in the right of presumption of innocence, the right not to be
> >> detained or restricted without trial, and right not to be fingerprinted
> >> like a common criminal and every aspect of your life cataloged by the
> >> government for the bogus ID scheme.
> >
> > Parts of this I understand and agree/disagree with but I feel that it is
> > very OT for this ng.
>
> I am not proposing to discuss any of those matters further.
>
> > Since you castigate people regularly for misusing the ng I think that
> > you should withdraw the statement - after correcting the grammatical
> > and spelling errors.
>
> I think you should either refrain from such petty nonsense or go in to
> politics.
>

God, don't get him started...

He WAS in politics.

Doug



0
news1597 (2)
4/14/2005 11:24:42 AM
In article <1113476505.15acf702b02c4eb5d23ffdbab4671719@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Could you please tell us all which items Windows fails to deliver the
> national curriculum and what alterations have been made to the NC to
> accomodate items which Windows can't do.

> Specifics please and not generalities.

> And also up to date ones.

That will need a fair bit of detailed checking. I'll do it but it will take
time.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 11:37:02 AM
In article <4d5b7035d1bbailey@argonet.co.uk>, Brian Bailey
<bbailey@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5b267488john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <702c1e5b4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> > <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > > On 13 Apr 2005 Sandy Morton <sandy@millport.net> wrote:

> > > > 
> > > > > The problem has been in there for some time now; the folk
> > > > > actually doing the work aren't the ones making the decision
> > > > > about the tools for the job.
> > > > 
> > > > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > > > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British
> > > > OS ?

> > > Absolutely pointless, there is nothing the goverment could do or
> > > would be allowed to do to promote it. Any future for RISC OS has to
> > > be on a sound commercial basis, and only we can provide that.

> > Rubbish. The problem is *not* to prefer British systems but to stop an
> > unreasonable and illegal preference to Windows systems.

> I cannot think offhand what the superlative for rubbish might be without
> resorting to Anglo Saxon.

You manage to get the insults across quite well without resorting to the
Low Dutch which is much more insulting than the so-called 'Anglo-Saxon'
words - that aren't.
[you really should be more precise!]

> Your arguments are just so full of holes, without substance or
> foundation, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

But you keep missing!

> Teachers themselves set the IT agenda by promulgating the notion that
> learning and, therefore, teaching should not be the *damned hard work*
> that learning actually is and that all teaching and learning could and
> should be done through play.

Some do. Some don't. I never did.

> This as much as anything set the form for IT. The notion was also pushed
> that the internet was *the way* to all knowledge and learning. In point
> of fact there are, demonstrably, huge holes in the the internet
> knowledge base and a large proportion of what is there is questionable.
> Pupils and their teachers do not have, and are not taught, how to
> discriminate between fact and faction.

Some may fit your 'stereotype'. I never found any. Of course there are
plenty of people who are willing to make such accusations on no evidence.

> I illustrate this by two examples,

> I have had mathematics teachers seriously argue that precision did not
> matter in calculations and that approximation was completely acceptable.

There are calculations where approximation is appropriate and so-called
precision is not. Getting pupils to make approximations in Maths (and real
life) is often quite hard and kids will typically calculate to ten places
of decimals the time in seconds at which a train will enter a station or in
grams the flour to add in a recipe.
Getting kids to make appropriate calculations is a hard task. You clearly
don't understand the problem or its solution.

> I was told by a senior physics teacher that ship's compasses needed
> compensation because ships were riveted in their construction. The fact
> that all ships for, probably, the last 45 years have been of all welded
> construction seemed to be completely outside his knowledge.

So from one esoteric sample you condemn all teachers?
Bad logic. Back to school?

> As a retired engineer, with marine and nuclear experience, this just
> fills me full of dread for the future of our technology base.

If only retired marine and nuclear engineers would put back some of their
experiences in a positive form rather than trying to demolish others - the
world would be a far better place.

> Teachers themselves did not and do not have exposure to the commercial
> and technical environment which would and should have enabled them to
> fight their corner.

Some don't - some do. Your logic is severely wanting. I'm now worried at
the safety of our ships and nuclear installations if you used such logic in
your employment.

> They work in what is clearly a very narrow culture and are also quite
> clearly oblivious to that fact. The school governors, of course, by and
> large, have had that commercial experience but without exposure to the
> teaching environment. Teachers were and are in consequence unable to
> fight their corner. It the teachers who have the responsiblity, no one
> else.

You move from unwarranted generalisations to total confusion.

> My argument is no where complete, but the sham notion that IT could be
> used to fill the gap in the failure to teach literacy and other skills,
> which would be the cure of all teachings ills, was put forward by
> teachers themselves and contributed greatly to the basic failure to
> teach literacy effectively.

So you read somewhere something by someone who may have been a teacher
saying that IT could replace literacy &c. Despite training as an IT teacher
and teaching as an IT teacher I have never heard any teacher suggest such
rubbish. Proper use of some computer programs may well help teachers to
diagnose learning problems and may well provide another media for
introduction of interest into certain areas and improve literacy thereby -
but your bitter diatribe totally misses these more complex possibilities.

> Certain commercial interests merely latched on to that notion.

Certain commercial interests were behind such false notions.

> With regard to the failure of RISC OS in that environment, the fault
> very clearly lies at the door of Acorn's management, whose appalling
> decisions led directly to their failure to compete in the educational
> environment and so led to the, quite inevitable, consequence, Acorn's
> demise, no one else was responsible.

Rubbish. Whatever Acorn may or may not have done (not arguing about that)
RISC OS machines would today be in far more schools but for false and
damaging statements made by school governors in ignorance or other reasons.

> The tick box, "toys are us" culture in teaching has led directly to the
> quite inevitable, appalling, literacy situation where, I think, 30% of
> all children leaving school can barely read and are virtually
> unemployable. Don't take my word for it, read what the director of the
> CBI says *every year*, without fail.

Rubbish.
The current literacy tests at Y6 (top juniors) are a reasonable test for
literacy. As it happens I'm just dealing with such results for one inner
city school with 87% gaining level 4 or above. If you think that represents
failure then you're stark staring bonkers.
If you think you could lift the results for the 13% (7 boys) 'only'
achieving level 3 then I'd like to see you try.

> I'm truly sorry for the kids, they just have no idea how far they have
> been sold short, or by whom.

By you. They achieve good results and you and your like put them down.

> Rant over, but very far from complete!
And even further from any semblance of reality.

[Those currently teaching might feel they cannot suitably reply to your
unwarranted attack on their profession. I have no such scruples.]

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 12:10:59 PM
In article <425e5127$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>,
   dougie <news@REMOVE.smartfart.co.uk> wrote:
> > I think you should either refrain from such petty nonsense or go in to
> > politics.

> God, don't get him started...

> He WAS in politics.

At least it gives us all a phrase to use whenever druck says somehting
really annoying:
"Oh, go into politics!" ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 1:15:58 PM
Sandy Morton wrote:
> Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS

There's me at http://www.libdems.f9.co.uk/brightside
There's Paul helping out at http://www.carolinedinenage.com/

A quick rummage through Google hasn't turned up any Labour PPCs
mentioning RISC OS.

-- 
JGH
0
jgh2 (975)
4/14/2005 1:21:35 PM
In article <4d5b7610b2john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Rant over, but very far from complete!
> And even further from any semblance of reality.

> [Those currently teaching might feel they cannot suitably reply to your
> unwarranted attack on their profession. I have no such scruples.]

I am sure that those with discrimination will,if they care to, easily
recognise the generalizations and specifics of what I have said, and what
I really meant, without any difficuly

0
bbailey (247)
4/14/2005 1:24:54 PM
In article <73210e4c.0504140521.202d97e8@posting.google.com>,
   J.G.Harston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Sandy Morton wrote:
> > Possibly OT but with an Election coming up isn't this the time to
> > quiz all candidates about the support they would give to a British OS

> There's me at http://www.libdems.f9.co.uk/brightside

I'm very happy to wish you a resounding 2nd place above the Tories and
frighten the Labour candidate - but winning might be a touch optimistic... 
    ;-)

Best wishes!

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 2:23:46 PM
In article <73210e4c.0504140521.202d97e8@posting.google.com>,
   J.G.Harston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> There's me at http://www.libdems.f9.co.uk/brightside There's Paul
> helping out at http://www.carolinedinenage.com/

I amy not agree with the politics but for your good work - good luck!

-- 
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.millport.net
0
sandy5822 (221)
4/14/2005 4:10:20 PM
In message <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> responded to:
> 
> > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well
> > > as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.
> > > 
> > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > 
> > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without the
> > ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia Director
> > and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that can. As I've
> > said many times before, that's all we need to be back at the races!
> 
> Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:
> 
> 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been altered to
> suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and adding items that
> only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they haven't yet managed to
> change the subject to WCT.
> 
Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal. As
long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right levels
or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need some
decent software too, like Textease Studio+.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/14/2005 5:45:59 PM
In message <4d5b262563john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>,
>    Kevin Corney <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At a
> > governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no longer
> > allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I can't find
> > anything about it on the dfes site.
> 
> I suggest that you speak to the person who made that statement and ask
> where they got the information from.
I did. There was no reply. 

-- 
Kevin Corney, Emley, West Yorkshire, HD8 9RG
01924 848882
Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten. - W. Ulbricht
0
Kevin9813 (9)
4/14/2005 6:34:01 PM
In article <4d5b32cad4john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> As that unreasonable and illegal preference severely damages the RISC OS
> market I wonder if you consider anything to be relevant to RISC OS. If
> ignorant or corrupt people hadn't made false and damaging statements in
> school governors' meetings the RISC OS market would now be 10 or 100
> times larger than it is at present.

I do tend to agree with John here. I know from first hand experience of
working in education for several years that there was definitely a
'conspiracy' going on whereby school governors and local LEAs would take
back-handers from Microsoft and PC dealers in exchange for installing PCs
in schools.

In one school, I know of an ICT manager who was paid 40 quid per (PC)
computer sold to the school. With a couple of hundred computers in the
school I worked in, this would be a huge incentive to 'switch' to PCs.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

Humour is such a subjective thing, wouldn't you say?
0
4/14/2005 7:03:37 PM
In article <425e5127$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>,
   dougie <news@REMOVE.smartfart.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> He WAS in politics.

Some of us still are. ;-)

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

I don't approve of political jokes...I've seen too many of them get elected.
0
4/14/2005 7:04:13 PM
"David" <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:16bc945b4d.dswis@freeuk.net...
> In message <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
>           John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> > responded to:
> >
> > > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well
> > > > as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.
> > > >
> > > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > >
> > > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without
the
> > > ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia Director
> > > and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that can. As
I've
> > > said many times before, that's all we need to be back at the races!
> >
> > Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:
> >
> > 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> > Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been altered
to
> > suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and adding items that
> > only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they haven't yet managed
to
> > change the subject to WCT.
> >
> Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal. As
> long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right levels
> or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need some
> decent software too, like Textease Studio+.
> -- 
> Dave Wisnia, Leeds

Yes - but. . .
I have an OfSTED report referring to Textease Studio as "non standard"
software...
I have a KS3 Strategy Consultant's report referring to "non standard"
software...

Personally I consider the phrase "non standard software" to be an oxymoron.

Unfortunately those of use who teach in the state sector are victims of a
bizarre form of logic.
"These requirements are non-statutory, but if you don't follow them you will
have to prove that the results your pupils obtain are as least as good as if
they had been followed."

Bit like having to prove that I didn't break a speed limit, or that someone
hasn't got WMD.
Oops - sorry, gone OT!

Regards
David


0
David
4/14/2005 7:07:15 PM
In article <na.1f68fa4d5b.a903c0mijassoft@argonet.co.uk>,
   Mr John FO Evans <mijassoft@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>   My pet dream is that someone would come up with even a tiny fraction of
> the cash poured into M$ software by officialdom in order to finance
> Browsers etc on RISCOS.  Considering the relative size of the market and
> the current cash available RISCOS software writers have created wonders. 
> With even a small cash boost they could do far better than the opposition.

Once Orpheus Internet becomes the dominent ISP in the country, I shall be
ensuring that RISC OS gets the support (and publicity) that it deserves.....

(well, if you can dream, so can I.... :-))

>   I spend almost no time on the Internet using a PC, prefering to use
> RISCOS - but I spend hours preventing and fixing the havoc wrought by
> bugs on my PC but almost no time cleaning up my RPC.

I no longer use a PC at all for internet stuff, and having sold my Mac, I
now use RISC OS exclusively for my internet access as well as for running
my company.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

Who are you?
0
4/14/2005 7:07:31 PM
In article <73210e4c.0504140521.202d97e8@posting.google.com>,
   J.G.Harston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> There's me at http://www.libdems.f9.co.uk/brightside

Wow! Extra brownie point there for mentioning RISC OS on the official
website. :-)

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

51 things to do in a lift.... 
 5. Sell Girl Scout cookies.
0
4/14/2005 7:12:44 PM
In article <4d5b8238dajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm very happy to wish you a resounding 2nd place above the Tories and
> frighten the Labour candidate - but winning might be a touch
> optimistic... 
>     ;-)

I was just thinking that myself - but at least his Party is the only one
that was against the war in Iraq and is also against ID cards. I'm still
working on convincing Michael Howard that ID cards are a seriously bad
idea.... ;-)

Perhaps I ought to blackmail him with the dodgy photos I took of him years
ago, one of which is in my weblog at
http://www.paulsdomain.co.uk/?ref=20031030

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

Betreff: Fw: Fun stuff to read
0
4/14/2005 7:15:52 PM
In article <na.7968104d5b.a903c0mijassoft@argonet.co.uk>, Mr John FO
Evans
<mijassoft@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> The RPC is slower on printing and burning CD's - but most everywhere
> else it is highly efficient.

However the likelihood of getting a document out of the PC that matches
what appears on the screen within days seems a bit sad when compared with
the speed from the RPC :-)

Actually, given the difference in rendering systems between screen and
print the PC may never do it so the comparison isn't really fair.

0
4/14/2005 7:42:40 PM
In article <4d5b9cf6d4usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:

> I was just thinking that myself - but at least his Party is the only one
> that was against the war in Iraq and is also against ID cards. I'm still
> working on convincing Michael Howard that ID cards are a seriously bad
> idea.... ;-)

> Perhaps I ought to blackmail him with the dodgy photos I took of him
> years ago, one of which is in my weblog at
> http://www.paulsdomain.co.uk/?ref=20031030

You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've seen that
will actually admit to being in the same room as Michael Howard.

One of those Chianti moments isn't it?

0
4/14/2005 8:30:12 PM
In article <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> responded to:
> 
> > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as well
> > > as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are lying.
> > > 
> > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > 
> > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without the
> > ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia Director
> > and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that can. As I've
> > said many times before, that's all we need to be back at the races!
> 
> Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:
> 
> 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been altered to
> suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and adding items that
> only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they haven't yet managed to
> change the subject to WCT.
>
The issue is not solely with ICT as a subject. (Which it shouldn't be
anyway, IMHO, for much the same reason as Pencils aren't a subject)
Your knowledge of the use of computers in education does seem a little
dated. Taking the things out of the "ICT" ghetto and integrating them
into the whole curriculum is essential if any level of value for money
is to be achieved. What RISC OS lacks is the multimedia tools to give
access to these cross curricular resources.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/14/2005 8:31:22 PM
In article <86555e5b4d.simonwillcocks@home.invalid>, Simon Willcocks
<URL:mailto:simon.willcocks@t-online.de> wrote:
> In message <1113414488.45621.0@doris.uk.clara.net>
>           "David Carmichael" <davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Of course the schools that spend their budget  on MS Office are then
> > frequently unable or unwilling to invest in other software. Best of luck if
> > you want to try and use OpenOffice or Star Office - "it can't be any good if
> > it's free"
> 
> StarOffice isn't free, though.  It comes in a nice box!
> 
> "StarOffice 7 Office Suite is the world's leading office productivity suite
> on Linux and the Solaris OS, and the leading alternative office suite on
> Windows.
> 
> StarOffice software is affordable, easy to use, and based on open standards.
> It offers word processing, spreadsheet, presentation, drawing, and database
> capabilities. Its familiar interface enables quick productivity and results
> for the business user, and elegant output for the consumer."
> 
> Sun sell it at, for example, 8400 ukp for a 250 RTU licence (whatever RTU
> stands for, "Run Time User"?).  Licences go from 25 to 10000 RTUs.  I think
> schools would also be buying the right for the users to have the software at
> home or on a laptop at no extra charge, thus saving parents and teachers
> money.  There's probably special licences for schools, I didn't look.
> 
Check out SchoolOffice on www.logo.com It's available on its own, or
bundled with Logotron's primary and secondary software collections.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/14/2005 8:32:39 PM
In article <4d5b9bd7b2usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<URL:mailto:usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5b32cad4john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > As that unreasonable and illegal preference severely damages the RISC OS
> > market I wonder if you consider anything to be relevant to RISC OS. If
> > ignorant or corrupt people hadn't made false and damaging statements in
> > school governors' meetings the RISC OS market would now be 10 or 100
> > times larger than it is at present.
> 
> I do tend to agree with John here. I know from first hand experience of
> working in education for several years that there was definitely a
> 'conspiracy' going on whereby school governors and local LEAs would take
> back-handers from Microsoft and PC dealers in exchange for installing PCs
> in schools.
> 
> In one school, I know of an ICT manager who was paid 40 quid per (PC)
> computer sold to the school. With a couple of hundred computers in the
> school I worked in, this would be a huge incentive to 'switch' to PCs.
>
I wish we had 40 quid gross margin per PC, to be honest. If it's true,
of course, you should have reported this to the police, Paul. It's
called corruption and is illegal. Or, if you prefer swifter action,
report it to the Inland Revenue, who would be fascinated to hear about
several grand in untaxed income.

I know you won't believe me, but we have never ever offered bribes to
customers to make them buy PCs, nor do Microsoft offer us any
incentives to sell their product, nor have they ever done so.

Cheers

Mike 

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/14/2005 8:37:54 PM
In article <4d5ba3c4e7steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've seen that
> will actually admit to being in the same room as Michael Howard.

Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his politics, as a
person, he's actually a really nice man.
Him and his wife are pretty down to earth, normal people, whom I wouldn't
be ashamed of knowing.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

If it is not right, do not do it. 
 If it is not true, do not say it.
0
4/14/2005 9:52:11 PM
In article <4d5ba3c4e7steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <4d5b9cf6d4usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
> <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:

> > I was just thinking that myself - but at least his Party is the
> > only one that was against the war in Iraq and is also against ID
> > cards. I'm still working on convincing Michael Howard that ID
> > cards are a seriously bad idea.... ;-)

Or, in our case, ID Podules  ;-)

> > Perhaps I ought to blackmail him with the dodgy photos I took of
> > him years ago, one of which is in my weblog at
> > http://www.paulsdomain.co.uk/?ref=20031030

Although I realise this appeared a couple of years ago, I have
nonetheless just made my own entry into this competition.

> You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've seen
> that will actually admit to being in the same room as Michael
> Howard.

I haven't yet, though I have shaken hands with William Hague (back in
2000) and he turned out to be okay, actually.

> One of those Chianti moments isn't it?

I hope it's a nice Chianti.  Now what were those beans called?...

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/14/2005 9:56:29 PM
In article <4d5bab4651usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay (pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>) wrote:
> In article <4d5ba3c4e7steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> > You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've
> > seen that will actually admit to being in the same room as
> > Michael Howard.

> Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his politics, as
> a person, he's actually a really nice man. Him and his wife are
> pretty down to earth, normal people, whom I wouldn't be ashamed of
> knowing.

I've had that confirmed by folk I know very well who have met him, and
have truly great anecdotes I /could/ tell -- but I'd get told off for
doing so(!)

There are lessons here for many of us: don't believe what is served up
to you by the newsmakers, for a start.  This is a prime reason behind
the marginalisation our platform has suffered for many years, and why
(for example) BETT is now so monochromatic and, frankly, boring.

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/14/2005 10:03:12 PM
In article <1113505636.6956.0@doris.uk.clara.net>, David Carmichael
<davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:
> I have an OfSTED report referring to Textease Studio as "non standard"
> software... I have a KS3 Strategy Consultant's report referring to "non
> standard" software...

Can you please let me have a copy of these - or a link if they are on a
site somewhere? Whoever wrote those needs to be confronted with their
reasoning and forced to justify it on educational terms.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 10:12:43 PM
In article <e421995b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>, Kevin Corney
<Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5b262563john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <c9d00a5b4d.Kevin@freeuk.com>, Kevin Corney
> >    <Kevin@kcorney.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Can anyone tell me what the official DFES position on RISC OS is? At
> > > a governors' meeting last night I was told that schools were no
> > > longer allowed to use RISC OS. I'm sure this can't be correct, but I
> > > can't find anything about it on the dfes site.
> > 
> > I suggest that you speak to the person who made that statement and ask
> > where they got the information from.
> I did. There was no reply. 

People who make damaging statements should be required to justify their
words or formally withdraw them.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/14/2005 10:14:14 PM
In article <4d5bab4651usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> > You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've
> > seen that will actually admit to being in the same room as
> > Michael Howard.

> Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his politics, as
> a person, he's actually a really nice man. Him and his wife are
> pretty down to earth, normal people, whom I wouldn't be ashamed of
> knowing.

Thanks pv - my faith in the human race has almost been restored.

-- 
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
http://www.millport.net
0
sandy5822 (221)
4/14/2005 10:35:58 PM
In message <4d5bad27b4john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1113505636.6956.0@doris.uk.clara.net>, David Carmichael
> <davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:
> > I have an OfSTED report referring to Textease Studio as "non standard"
> > software... I have a KS3 Strategy Consultant's report referring to "non
> > standard" software...
> 
> Can you please let me have a copy of these - or a link if they are on a
> site somewhere? Whoever wrote those needs to be confronted with their
> reasoning and forced to justify it on educational terms.

Interestingly I just threw out a couple of copies of Connected yesterday
(Scottish magazine about IT for teachers). On one of them (either Autumn
2004 or Spring 2005) Textease Studio (Pro? or Plus???) was being hailed for
use in primary schools.
There was a whole article (indirectly?) about it.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/14/2005 10:51:23 PM
In article <ant142054b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> I wish we had 40 quid gross margin per PC, to be honest. If it's true, of
> course, you should have reported this to the police, Paul. It's called
> corruption and is illegal. Or, if you prefer swifter action, report it to
> the Inland Revenue, who would be fascinated to hear about several grand
> in untaxed income.

Of course, this was about 10 years ago - when PCs were much more expensive,
and presumably had a bigger profit margin.
Plus, I suspect some other members of this newsgroup will back me up on
this, based on experiences in Hampshire.....

> I know you won't believe me, but we have never ever offered bribes to
> customers to make them buy PCs, nor do Microsoft offer us any incentives
> to sell their product, nor have they ever done so.

Oh, I'm certainly not saying it was necessarily a country wide conspiracy,
but I do know of a several independent and difference cases of the same
thing going on.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
0
4/15/2005 6:46:21 AM
In article <1113505636.6956.0@doris.uk.clara.net>,
   David Carmichael <davidreevect-at-clara.co.uk> wrote:

> "David" <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote in message

> > Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal.
> > As long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right
> > levels or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need
> > some decent software too, like Textease Studio+. -- Dave Wisnia, Leeds

> Yes - but. . . I have an OfSTED report referring to Textease Studio as
> "non standard" software... I have a KS3 Strategy Consultant's report
> referring to "non standard" software...
snip>
 That's a bit strange since the I have in my possession a set of cds
produced by the dfes which uses Textease as an exemplary piece of software
for teaching history.
Of course it is standard software. Its also highly appropriate software for
primary aged children at least. Damn sight more so than MS Turd.

John
> Regards David

-- 
John Myers

0
johncmyers (28)
4/15/2005 7:10:02 AM
In article <ant1420220b09GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
<michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> > responded to:
> > 
> > > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as
> > > > well as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are
> > > > lying.
> > > > 
> > > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > > 
> > > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without
> > > the ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia
> > > Director and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that
> > > can. As I've said many times before, that's all we need to be back
> > > at the races!
> > 
> > Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:
> > 
> > 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> > Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been
> > altered to suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and
> > adding items that only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they
> > haven't yet managed to change the subject to WCT.
> >
> The issue is not solely with ICT as a subject.

True.

> (Which it shouldn't be anyway, IMHO, for much the same reason as Pencils
> aren't a subject)

Pencils are a subject of their own in infant classes - for the short time
it takes to learn to use one. Unless you're capable of teaching the use of
computers and computing and introducing all programs with just a few hours
of practice then you need to do a bit more for IT.

> Your knowledge of the use of computers in education does seem a little
> dated.

It is I'm afraid Mike. I hanker after those days when IT was taught by
someone who knew what they were talking about. I realise that those lesson
were often interrupted by watching the dinosaurs pass the classroom window
and that in these modern days it's deemed much more appropriate to teach
ICT (notice the extra but highly irrelevant letter) with the assistance to
someone who knows only that BG (bless His cotton socks) invented everything
computer-wise and is all-understanding and whose system is not only the
last word but is also the alpha and omega (I wonder if anyone has told
Microdigital?).

> Taking the things out of the "ICT" ghetto and integrating them into the
> whole curriculum is essential

Absolutely essential because that's the only sure way to ensure that IT
(sorry - lost that extra C again) is taught only by those who don't
understand what they are doing.

> if any level of value for money is to be achieved.

Go on then. Explain yourself. What value for what money? Do tell me what
the kids are learning. If they are not learning IT (clearly they are not
because you have very carefully ensured that IT specialists are dragged out
of the equation) then you need to justify your value for money in terms of
literacy, numeracy, English, Maths, Science, &c. And the statistics show
that all that money poured into schools for ICT (found it again) in order
to improve those subjects has been a complete, total, and utter waste of --
well practically everything. Take BETT and all the stultifying monotony of
the companies at BETT selling interactive whiteboards to anything that
moves, dump it all in the sea off Brighton and what do you get?
Kids learning English, Maths, Science, &c just as well as they do today.
Better probably as schools will have enough money to pay for books and
teachers if the BG tax is removed.

> What RISC OS lacks is the multimedia tools to give access to these cross
> curricular resources.

You can't even run an interactive whiteboard. And without that you have
nothing with which to easily impress visiting dignitaries and you'd have to
put on a real good lesson instead.

If IT cannot stand as a subject on its own with a challenging curriculum
and capable teachers then you have no excuse for spending all that public
money.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 7:57:50 AM
In article <4d5bdc2e1dusenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant142054b499GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
>    <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > I wish we had 40 quid gross margin per PC, to be honest. If it's true,
> > of course, you should have reported this to the police, Paul. It's
> > called corruption and is illegal. Or, if you prefer swifter action,
> > report it to the Inland Revenue, who would be fascinated to hear about
> > several grand in untaxed income.

> Of course, this was about 10 years ago - when PCs were much more
> expensive, and presumably had a bigger profit margin. Plus, I suspect
> some other members of this newsgroup will back me up on this, based on
> experiences in Hampshire.....

No knowledge of Hampshire but the money need not come from the gross
margin...

> > I know you won't believe me, but we have never ever offered bribes to
> > customers to make them buy PCs, nor do Microsoft offer us any
> > incentives to sell their product, nor have they ever done so.

> Oh, I'm certainly not saying it was necessarily a country wide
> conspiracy, but I do know of a several independent and difference cases
> of the same thing going on.

It wasn't. Each area had its own ways of dealing with the cash-flow
situation.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 8:04:56 AM
In article <16bc945b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
   David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:

> Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal. As
> long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right levels
> or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need some
> decent software too, like Textease Studio+.

Try telling the Ofsted inspectors or HMI that. They are also interested
in HOW you deliver the NC and if it's not done in the way they expect,
then that will be noted as a weakness - even though the children achieve
high levels.

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/15/2005 8:27:50 AM
In article <4d5b9be5c6usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>,
   pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <425e5127$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>,
>    dougie <news@REMOVE.smartfart.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > He WAS in politics.

> Some of us still are. ;-)

So is Lord Such ...

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/15/2005 8:30:48 AM
In article <4d5b9c3302usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:

> Once Orpheus Internet becomes the dominent ISP in the country, I shall
> be ensuring that RISC OS gets the support (and publicity) that it
> deserves.....

But not until then?  ;-)

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/15/2005 8:32:10 AM
In article <1113553848.fbbef967b442066d0aa0803c16742dda@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5b9be5c6usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>,
>    pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <425e5127$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>,
> >    dougie <news@REMOVE.smartfart.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > He WAS in politics.

> > Some of us still are. ;-)

> So is Lord Such ...

Not recently.  That was Sutch a long time ago...

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/15/2005 8:39:11 AM
In article <1113553848.fbbef967b442066d0aa0803c16742dda@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5b9be5c6usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>,
>    pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <425e5127$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net>,
> >    dougie <news@REMOVE.smartfart.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > He WAS in politics.

> > Some of us still are. ;-)

> So is Lord Such ...

From beyond the grave, presumably...?  But come to think of it, Michael
Howard also has a certain aversion to sunshine...

Cheers

Alan
[Snip]


0
alan.calder (319)
4/15/2005 8:50:04 AM
In article <4d5be2b991john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> If IT cannot stand as a subject on its own with a challenging
> curriculum and capable teachers then you have no excuse for spending
> all that public money.

You don't teach IT to 4-7 year olds - you use IT as a tool. The teacher
doesn't need to know how the computer works, any more than (s)he needs to
know how chalk is made.

As long as the computers can run the software that the school wishes to
use for teaching the national curriculum, and with which the teachers are
familiar, then there is no problem. Oh, yes - internet access with full
multimedia capability is essential.

Very few school would consider using RISC OS software dating back 10
years or more when there is much more competent software available on the
PC platform. The education software market has moved on a lot since the
demise of Acorn and our young children have a right to be taught using
the best available. It's called value for money.

IF Acorn had been better managed and IF Acorn/Xemplar had held on to
their education base it would be a different picture. But they didn't and
those in education have to face reality and use the best tools for the
job. The fact that those tools only run on Windows may be unfortunate,
but education professionals have to think of the children and are not
interested in trying to keep an outdated platform running just for the
sake of nostalgia.

WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in the
nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are NOT counted
in our computer/pupil ratio.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/15/2005 8:54:09 AM
In article <1113555683.cce0374d292bad8e85c0c4bb889bb491@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5be2b991john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > If IT cannot stand as a subject on its own with a challenging
> > curriculum and capable teachers then you have no excuse for spending
> > all that public money.

> You don't teach IT to 4-7 year olds - you use IT as a tool. The teacher
> doesn't need to know how the computer works, any more than (s)he needs to
> know how chalk is made.

The teacher need to know how chalk works on a board. The learning for that
may be trivial but it's not irrelevant. The knowledge required to use
computers with competence is just greater and takes a significant amount of
learning and teaching to get it right.

> As long as the computers can run the software that the school wishes to
> use for teaching the national curriculum, and with which the teachers are
> familiar, then there is no problem. Oh, yes - internet access with full
> multimedia capability is essential.

Name your subject. I'm very happy to put it to the test. You have your
multimedia resources and a class set of Windows PCs and I'll have the
equivalent value in other resources + a couple of RiscStations. See which
class learns best...    ;-)

> Very few school would consider using RISC OS software dating back 10
> years or more when there is much more competent software available on the
> PC platform. The education software market has moved on a lot since the
> demise of Acorn and our young children have a right to be taught using
> the best available. It's called value for money.

Crap. Whilst I'll accept that there could - and should - be improvement in
RISC OS, and would have been if schools hadn't deserted the system, the
idea that kids don't learn from older systems is just salesmen's lies. The
new machines are not there for the kids or for educational purposes and
they certainly do not offer value for money.

> IF Acorn had been better managed and IF Acorn/Xemplar had held on to
> their education base it would be a different picture. But they didn't and
> those in education have to face reality and use the best tools for the
> job. The fact that those tools only run on Windows may be unfortunate,
> but education professionals have to think of the children and are not
> interested in trying to keep an outdated platform running just for the
> sake of nostalgia.

You're confused. The RISC OS systems beat Windows systems in every
department until after schools moved to Windows. RISC OS still beats
Windows in every educational aspect.

> WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in the
> nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are NOT counted
> in our computer/pupil ratio.

That simply confirms stupidity. A3020s in the nursery/reception is a great
idea - but anyone who considers the under 5s to be "where it doesn't matter
so much" doesn't even begin to understand humans.       :-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 9:31:31 AM
In article <1113553845.956591fe25871af6dde1ac4d414b3287@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <16bc945b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
>    David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:

> > Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal. As
> > long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right levels
> > or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need some
> > decent software too, like Textease Studio+.

> Try telling the Ofsted inspectors or HMI that. They are also interested
> in HOW you deliver the NC and if it's not done in the way they expect,
> then that will be noted as a weakness - even though the children achieve
> high levels.

Point out any reports from Ofsted inspectors that make this clear. It
should be easy as all the reports are on-line. I'll take up the matter with
the CI.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 9:33:48 AM
In article <4d5beb4d38john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1113555683.cce0374d292bad8e85c0c4bb889bb491@teranews>,
>    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5be2b991john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
> >    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > If IT cannot stand as a subject on its own with a challenging
> > > curriculum and capable teachers then you have no excuse for spending
> > > all that public money.

> > You don't teach IT to 4-7 year olds - you use IT as a tool. The teacher
> > doesn't need to know how the computer works, any more than (s)he needs to
> > know how chalk is made.

> The teacher need to know how chalk works on a board. The learning for that
> may be trivial but it's not irrelevant. The knowledge required to use
> computers with competence is just greater and takes a significant amount of
> learning and teaching to get it right.

[Snip]
All too strong, John, especially the bits that I've snipped!

I also think that RISC OS had great advantages once in education and I was
greatly saddened by the poorer quality of the work turned out by studenst
when we had to switch to Windows but...

The truth is that IT in school *is* a tool for the rest of the curriculum
and sadly Acorn lost that battle.  

I might also agree that too much money is poured into IT in schools now to
the detriment of other, possibly more valuable, provision but that is the
way of things at the moment.  Unless someone can come up with a way of
providing RISC OS access to all the new educational tools that are
available for Windows and Macs then there is no hope that RISC OS can be
other than a niche market as far as schools are concerned.

Wish it wasn't so.

Cheers

Alan


0
alan.calder (319)
4/15/2005 9:55:27 AM
In article <4d5b7610b2john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John
Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > I illustrate this by two examples,

> > I have had mathematics teachers seriously argue that
> > precision did not matter in calculations and that
> > approximation was completely acceptable.

> There are calculations where approximation is appropriate
> and so-called precision is not. Getting pupils to make
> approximations in Maths (and real life) is often quite
> hard and kids will typically calculate to ten places of
> decimals the time in seconds at which a train will enter
> a station or in grams the flour to add in a recipe.
> Getting kids to make appropriate calculations is a hard
> task. You clearly don't understand the problem or its
> solution.

You understate the problem John.
:-)

It is horrendously difficult to get people in general, not
just school pupils, grasp the idea of orders of magnitude
and the appropriate or indeed the possible degree of
precision required in a particular situation.

And certainly, I would be amazed if the maths teachers
referred to were not talking about the type of situation you
refer to.

> > I was told by a senior physics teacher that ship's
> > compasses needed compensation because ships were
> > riveted in their construction. The fact that all ships
> > for, probably, the last 45 years have been of all
> > welded construction seemed to be completely outside his
> > knowledge.

Did the OP bother to consult the syllabus that the physics
teacher was required to teach? Or the text books (s)he was
required to use?

I suspect that the need for compass compensation in riveted
ships being taught is because the syllabus required it, or
because it was in the text book. If the latter, a teacher
has to be very careful in how they get round this sort of
outdated information because pupils tend to regard subject
textbooks as being gospel truth.

I do not have a lot of experience of physics syllabuses, but
it was certainly not unusual to find outdated truths in
chemistry texts and syllabuses.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/15/2005 10:07:17 AM
In article <4d5b9cf6d4usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:

> Perhaps I ought to blackmail him with the dodgy photos I
> took of him years ago, 

Reminds me of a former colleague in Perth when M******
F****** was the much unloved Education minister in the
Scottish Office.

John had been a contempory at St Andrews Uni and was
lamenting his lack of forsight in not having a camera to
hand when said government minister-to-be was seen falling
drunkenly up steps into his residence.

(The kind of "Saturday-Night-Scare" picture that we all know
and love from the Daily Mail.)

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/15/2005 10:11:05 AM
In article <4d5bac073ejohn@acornusers.org>, John M Ward
<john@acornusers.org> wrote:

> > Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his
> > politics, as a person, he's actually a really nice man.
> > Him and his wife are pretty down to earth, normal
> > people, whom I wouldn't be ashamed of knowing.

> I've had that confirmed by folk I know very well who have
> met him, and have truly great anecdotes I /could/ tell --
> but I'd get told off for doing so(!)

If this is true, presumably he goes miles out of his way to
make me and most of the people I know seriously scared at
the thought of him ever holding public office again.

One has to ask why?

"Something of the night about him" said Ann Widdecombe and
she knew him far better than anyone here I suspect.

I know I was brought up to believe that voting for tories
was only slightly less serious than mass murder (though I
did consider it briefly in the early 1980s when the tories
were the pro-European party and Labour was anti-European),
but the thought of voting for anyone who supports Michael
Howard makes me feel physically sick.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/15/2005 10:18:43 AM
In article <4d5bed7df6alan.calder@argonet.co.uk>, alan.calder
<alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Unless someone can come up with a way of providing RISC OS access to all
> the new educational tools that are available for Windows and Macs then
> there is no hope that RISC OS can be other than a niche market as far as
> schools are concerned.

Agreed. But that's perception far more than educational worth. You've noted
that I have little patience with people who follow the perceived rather
than the real value.    ;-)

Real value = what do kids know, understand and can accomplish - and how
does it empower them for life.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 11:12:05 AM
In article <4d5beb4d38john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Very few school would consider using RISC OS software dating back 10
> > years or more when there is much more competent software available on
> > the PC platform. The education software market has moved on a lot
> > since the demise of Acorn and our young children have a right to be
> > taught using the best available. It's called value for money.

> Crap. Whilst I'll accept that there could - and should - be improvement
> in RISC OS, and would have been if schools hadn't deserted the system,
> the idea that kids don't learn from older systems is just salesmen's
> lies. The new machines are not there for the kids or for educational
> purposes and they certainly do not offer value for money.

John, I'm not sure when you last had contact with computers in a school
or learning environment, but your ideas are way out of date.

Children go to school to learn. Educationalists accept that using IT as a
tool to enhance that learning process is of considerable benefit.
Software writers don't just write for the sake of it - they write
educational software which is aimed at the NC and has input from
teachers. The NT today is vastly different to the days when RISC OS had
viable software in schools.

Educational software runs on PCs. That is a fact and cannot be denied.
(well OK, Macs as well). Trying to use outdated educational software on
4-7 year olds is of no benefit to them and certainly, if it has to be
purchased together with the hardware to run it, doesn't offer value for
money.

You may not be aware of it as you presumably left the education field a
long time ago, but the government gives money for schools for IT
provision and it doesn't come out of the schools budget. That money is,
however, ringfenced and has to be spent on IT hardware and software. The
same applies to Ecredits. Most of our computers have been bought with
Ngfl money, although we have a few legacy ones and a couple from Tesco.
No one in their right mind would recommend equipping a school with RISC
OS machines as they simply can't do the job. OK, keep the old machines
that are still running, but they are only really good for the little ones
to play with rather than doing any serious learning.

Added to that, the Lgfl has been providing broadband access for schools
in our area. To get on that scheme you have to have PCs. If you don't
then your internet access will be cut off. There are very strict rules
about what hardware and software can be used and Acorn certainly doesn't
comply. I had a meeting with the LEA IT manager this morning to discuss
our getting on the fibre optic broadband rollout and he was quite
specific.

The purchase of new PCs for a school is relatively cheap - as is the
maintenance. Anyone who says otherwise is being economical with the
truth. We have a budget of �800 a year for the maintenance of our 40
machines and don't overspend it. This pays for an IT technician to visit
us every month for a half day and sort out any potential problems. If we
need help between visits we can either pay for it separately or replace a
planned visit. We haven't had to do that yet as the machines are very
reliable. OK, I do a fair bit of work on the system myself, but that
doesn't involve any expenditure and is mainly day to day expertise.

I really wish that Acorn had kept its hold in education. But it didn't.
Full stop. Period. Now we have to move on.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/15/2005 1:18:43 PM
In article <1113571199.7edc634d9d2f608c567ce3accf7c43aa@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5beb4d38john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Very few school would consider using RISC OS software dating back 10
> > > years or more when there is much more competent software available on
> > > the PC platform. The education software market has moved on a lot
> > > since the demise of Acorn and our young children have a right to be
> > > taught using the best available. It's called value for money.

> > Crap. Whilst I'll accept that there could - and should - be improvement
> > in RISC OS, and would have been if schools hadn't deserted the system,
> > the idea that kids don't learn from older systems is just salesmen's
> > lies. The new machines are not there for the kids or for educational
> > purposes and they certainly do not offer value for money.

> John, I'm not sure when you last had contact with computers in a school
> or learning environment, but your ideas are way out of date.

Apparently so. Things have clearly changed for the worst over the last few
days...

> Children go to school to learn. Educationalists accept that using IT as a
> tool to enhance that learning process is of considerable benefit.

*Can* be of considerable benefit. So can books - but usually not if you use
them as very expensive fuel. It depends how they are used of course; I'm
making the observation that the use of computers is better taught by
someone who understands computers and how to teach their use - just as
French is best taught by a trained French teacher and not by someone who
once went on holiday to Spainand hence knows foreign languages.

> Software writers don't just write for the sake of it - they write
> educational software which is aimed at the NC and has input from
> teachers. The NT today is vastly different to the days when RISC OS had
> viable software in schools.

NT? Sorry I don't follow.

> Educational software runs on PCs. That is a fact and cannot be denied.
> (well OK, Macs as well). Trying to use outdated educational software on
> 4-7 year olds is of no benefit to them and certainly, if it has to be
> purchased together with the hardware to run it, doesn't offer value for
> money.

So that's why the best and most used pieces of educational software in the
class of 6 year olds that I recently visited run on A4000s and A3020s
whilst the Windows offerings are seen as flashy but not particularly
useful?

> You may not be aware of it as you presumably left the education field a
> long time ago, but the government gives money for schools for IT
> provision and it doesn't come out of the schools budget. That money is,
> however, ringfenced

I know that. My knowledge of the education field is a touch more up to date
than you may imagine. I realise that the government are working hard to
beat some world record for throwing money at a single company - just as a
previous government worked just as hard at starving a more local company.
But what has this got to do with anything - other than schools don't have
the unilateral choice to move money from computers to education?

[Snip]

> Added to that, the Lgfl has been providing broadband access for schools
> in our area. To get on that scheme you have to have PCs. If you don't
> then your internet access will be cut off.

Now details of that would be of interest. please send them to me.

> There are very strict rules about what hardware and software can be used
> and Acorn certainly doesn't comply. I had a meeting with the LEA IT
> manager this morning to discuss our getting on the fibre optic broadband
> rollout and he was quite specific.

What rules are being followed here and who sets those rules? This is the
sort of thing that certainly could be raised in an election month. Details?

> The purchase of new PCs for a school is relatively cheap - as is the
> maintenance. Anyone who says otherwise is being economical with the
> truth.

I have the comparative figures. You clearly don't. You're wrong.

> We have a budget of �800 a year for the maintenance of our 40
> machines and don't overspend it. This pays for an IT technician to visit
> us every month for a half day and sort out any potential problems. If we
> need help between visits we can either pay for it separately or replace a
> planned visit. We haven't had to do that yet as the machines are very
> reliable. OK, I do a fair bit of work on the system myself, but that
> doesn't involve any expenditure and is mainly day to day expertise.

Your work is expenditure - even if you're paying for it out of your own
time/pocket in the same way as I paid for school software out of my pocket
when the Tories were last in power.

> I really wish that Acorn had kept its hold in education. But it didn't.
> Full stop. Period. Now we have to move on.

There is no reason why RISC OS machines shouldn't re-surface in education -
and elsewhere. If you think otherwise then your thinking is out of date.
Windows have a monopoly on the sort of machines that surfaced in the 80s.
Whilst they have held back development there is no reason to assume that
future computers should be anything like the 20 year old concept that we
have at present. That sort of thinking led to the infamous:

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home"

said by the President and founder of Digital Equipment Corporation (Ken
Olson) just one year before Acorn was founded.

You may think that you are part of a RISC OS community that is simply
hanging on to its past. I don't.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 2:14:51 PM
Ray Dawson  <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>pv<usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Once Orpheus Internet becomes the dominent ISP in the country, I shall
>> be ensuring that RISC OS gets the support (and publicity) that it
>> deserves.....
>
>But not until then?  ;-)

Presumably pv's "ISP manager" application has to be run in single-
tasking mode?  (Perhaps to avoid stability problems, although I'm
inclined to suspect that those are often caused by pub-related wetware:)

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
4/15/2005 3:00:40 PM
In message <e0b1b05b4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:


> Interestingly I just threw out a couple of copies of Connected yesterday
> (Scottish magazine about IT for teachers). On one of them (either Autumn
> 2004 or Spring 2005) Textease Studio (Pro? or Plus???) was being hailed for
> use in primary schools.
> There was a whole article (indirectly?) about it.

I found another copy in the staffroom, it was the most recent (Spring 2005)
edition.
It turns out that Dumfries and Galloway think Textease Studio is such the
bees knees that they are recommending it for Early Years (this doesn't
preclude its use elsewhere, it was in the Early Yars section of the mag) and
have a seven unit training course in its use for teachers for their CPD and
IT training.
Platform unspecified.

I've said it before, 'Acorn' lost a big chance of getting a foothold in
Scotland by not realising that we have a totally different curriculum than
E&W. Since we don't have any constraint on using whatever platform 'produces
the goods' for our subject, there was, and still is, an open market. If *good*
software appeared for my subject, I'd have a good chance of having an Iyonix
in place within a month.
(A lot of book publishers don't know that either, and waste money sending us
catalogues tied into curricula 'down south'.

But as things stand, no.
I arrived after the hols on Monday to find a new pc in my room: we're going
on to the iniquitous Click-and-Go system which only runs on XP (IMO it would
be iniquitous no matter what platform). I understand that Seemis only runs
on XP also, but could be wrong about that, I haven't even looked at it yet,
but it's going to be compulsory.

So by losing out on providing software for subject areas (I'm *not* talking
IT here), Acorn/RiscOS lost out on being the predominant platform in school,
ergo, they lost out on having the new admin programs created in it. Also, as
more and more Windows packages came out for other subjects, computing and
business studies moved over to Windows for consistency (previously computing
was Acorn and Business Studies had Macs). Choice of platform is always up to
the individual Principal Teacher, who may be asked to justify it.

Even from the point of view of clip-art, Windows has it.
Although there was some beautiful RiscOS clipart out there, little of it was
subject relevant (to me), and much of it was done several years ago (in many
cases, that matters). Although John has his big drive on 'graphicity', let's
face it, I can either struggle with trying to make my own images with no
artistic ability (I'm not talking flow-charts here, but real illustrations
for secondary pupils) or I can download professionally drawn images from the
Microsoft website (free) straight into (somewhere or other in the depths of)
MS Office where they are catalogued and cross-referenced and more than easy
to find (type in a keyword, up come all the relevant images). Even though I
don't actually like Word much (I *like* Impression, when it isn't crashing),
this advantage has me using Word more now.

'Computers in school' isn't just, or even mainly, about IT.


-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/15/2005 3:58:54 PM
In article <4d5bef9edfsee.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> "Something of the night about him" said Ann Widdecombe and
> she knew him far better than anyone here I suspect.

Then, quite inexplicably, she did a volte-face and supported him; and,
just as inexplicably, her hair turned colour...


-- 
 http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/penny/2d-0.htm
 I do adore Ms Widdlecum,
 Even more than Navy rum,
0
david7030 (340)
4/15/2005 4:03:15 PM
In article <82c40e5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> Also, as more and more Windows packages came out for
> other subjects, computing and business studies moved over
> to Windows for consistency (previously computing was
> Acorn and Business Studies had Macs). Choice of platform
> is always up to the individual Principal Teacher, who may
> be asked to justify it.

You must have been in some enlightened schhol, Liz!

In my last Scottish school we got whatever hardware the
coonsul gave us.

We did have BBCs in computing and DOS in business studies,
then we got Macs in Computing and Win 3.10 in business
studies, then Win95 in both.

Then I moved to the wrong side of the border. All Win95 here
too for the year that I was in a school.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/15/2005 4:44:35 PM
In article <82c40e5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> So by losing out on providing software for subject areas (I'm *not*
> talking IT here), Acorn/RiscOS lost out on being the predominant
> platform in school

Acorn/RISC OS lost out even when it had all the educational software
available. The choice wasn't made on merit, cost, or educational grounds.
Paul V. is close to the real reason.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/15/2005 4:54:39 PM
In article <4d5bab4651usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<URL:mailto:usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
will actually admit to being in the same room as Michael Howard.
> 
> Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his politics, as a
> person, he's actually a really nice man.
> Him and his wife are pretty down to earth, normal people, whom I wouldn't
> be ashamed of knowing.
> 
Sure are :-)


A.Weston
-- 
Staffordshire, UK of GB&NI. 

0
Dr
4/15/2005 4:59:40 PM
In message <4d5c12f334see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
          Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <82c40e5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Also, as more and more Windows packages came out for
> > other subjects, computing and business studies moved over
> > to Windows for consistency (previously computing was
> > Acorn and Business Studies had Macs). Choice of platform
> > is always up to the individual Principal Teacher, who may
> > be asked to justify it.
> 
> You must have been in some enlightened schhol, Liz!
> 
> In my last Scottish school we got whatever hardware the
> coonsul gave us.

We've been on devolved budgetting for about ten years now.

But I've never had anything I wanted in any area refused, but nothing I've
ordered has been controversial enough to be questioned. Generally if we want
anything over and above our allocation, we have to justify it, but it's just
a matter of explaining how it will help us to 'deliver'.

Nowadays because of the admin stuff, particularly Seemis, being windows, you
wouldn't get off with the 'as good as' argument, though, as we all need an
XP machine in our classrooms. I'm not saying Seemis is good, (we haven't
been trained on it yet, but we hear from other schools there are problems
with it), but there isn't a RiscOS alternative in any case.

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/15/2005 8:54:33 PM
snipped

> 
> As long as the computers can run the software that the school wishes to
> use for teaching the national curriculum, and with which the teachers are
> familiar, then there is no problem. Oh, yes - internet access with full
> multimedia capability is essential.
> 
> Very few school would consider using RISC OS software dating back 10
> years or more when there is much more competent software available on the
> PC platform. The education software market has moved on a lot since the
> demise of Acorn and our young children have a right to be taught using
> the best available. It's called value for money.
> 
> IF Acorn had been better managed and IF Acorn/Xemplar had held on to
> their education base it would be a different picture. But they didn't and
> those in education have to face reality and use the best tools for the
> job. The fact that those tools only run on Windows may be unfortunate,
> but education professionals have to think of the children and are not
> interested in trying to keep an outdated platform running just for the
> sake of nostalgia.
> 
> WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in the
> nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are NOT counted
> in our computer/pupil ratio.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ray D
> 

We have 11 RPC SA - they do count and they run the Acorn version of
current PC software that everyone is raving about! We have
a vast range of software supporting all curriculum areas. The reason
that they will be disappearing over the next two years is because of
lack of Macromedia Director and not-capable-enough browser problems.

Interestingly some of the best PC software are rewrites from BBC - RISC
OS. There are of course many pieces of software that we use in our PC
suite too that have no equivalent on RISC OS.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
(Fieldhead Carr Primary School)
0
dswis (522)
4/15/2005 9:48:07 PM
snipped

 OK, keep the old machines
> that are still running, but they are only really good for the little ones
> to play with rather than doing any serious learning.

You need to visit my school, Ray, you are way, way off track.

Our RISC OS machines are attached to a 2Mbit internet connection and
positively fly on the internet with Oregano 2 and Microsoft Exchange.

Textease Studio+ is our staple product which is used for 1001 purposes.

Children take these machines seriously and do serious, first class work
to a good level. In fact they don't really care which type of computer
they're on.

-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/15/2005 9:54:14 PM
In message <1113553845.956591fe25871af6dde1ac4d414b3287@teranews>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <16bc945b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
>    David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> > Incidentally the National Curriculum content is advisory, not legal. As
> > long as you can prove that children are achieving to the right levels
> > or above, you can use any OS you want! However ... you do need some
> > decent software too, like Textease Studio+.
> 
> Try telling the Ofsted inspectors or HMI that. They are also interested
> in HOW you deliver the NC and if it's not done in the way they expect,
> then that will be noted as a weakness - even though the children achieve
> high levels.
> 
> Ray D
> 
Ray, we achieved quite highly in 2001 when the inspectors last came.
One teacher achieved an "excellent" using only RISC OS (small cluster).
Their comments were centred round children's achievements and teacher
competence. They made NO comment about the operating system. Quite
right too!
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/15/2005 9:59:04 PM
In article <08bd2e5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
   David Wisnia <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> snipped

> > WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in
> > the nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are
> > NOT counted in our computer/pupil ratio.
>
> We have 11 RPC SA - they do count and they run the Acorn version of
> current PC software that everyone is raving about! We have
> a vast range of software supporting all curriculum areas. The reason
> that they will be disappearing over the next two years is because of
> lack of Macromedia Director and not-capable-enough browser problems.

The Firefox port should put paid to the latter issue fairly soon,
though I don't know what if anything can be done about the former.

> Interestingly some of the best PC software are rewrites from BBC -
> RISC OS.

I am not surprised -- there was some good stuff around even then, and
much of it can still do a useful job today.  It is all too common for
so many of those not as enlightened as many here to dismiss anything
not bang up-to-date and flashy, whereas we know better than to fall
into that rather obvious trap.

Though not related to schools, it is worth mentioning in passing that
the game "Eve" is currently being touted on the SciFi Channel's
Sci-Gamer feature, and the (new) presenter makes reference to "the
classic game Elite" and this new game's similar basic premise.

> There are of course many pieces of software that we use in
> our PC suite too that have no equivalent on RISC OS.

That's okay.  It looks like a mixed environment would be the best way
to proceed, so that no babies are thrown out with the bathwater,
bridges aren't burned, and any other appropriate saying.

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/15/2005 10:11:08 PM
In article <824c2f5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
   David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> snipped

> > OK, keep the old machines that are still running, but they are
> > only really good for the little ones to play with rather than
> > doing any serious learning.

> You need to visit my school, Ray, you are way, way off track.

> Our RISC OS machines are attached to a 2Mbit internet connection
> and positively fly on the internet with Oregano 2 and Microsoft
> Exchange.

You can access the websites you need to visit that way?  I am not
sufficiently familar with the topic, so stating (as I have done
recently) that I can access more-or-less all the sites /I/ need to
visit isn't at all the same thing (I mention just in case anyone wants
to make something of that!)

> Textease Studio+ is our staple product which is used for 1001
> purposes.

You mean for cleaning a big, big carpet?  ;-)

> Children take these machines seriously and do serious, first class
> work to a good level. In fact they don't really care which type of
> computer they're on.

I am very pleased to read this.  I suspect it might well turn out to
be more important than we yet realise to maintain this kind of
diversity in education.

Extrapolating what has happened here in recent years does not produce
a very pleasant picture for the next half-generation (i.e. within the
next eight to ten years, say) with effectively total American
mega-corporation possession of our education system a likely result,
with all that such a situation would entail.  Think American TV and
its British counterpart in Sky...

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/15/2005 10:21:08 PM
In message <4d5c2fff6cjohn@acornusers.org>
          John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:

> In article <08bd2e5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
>    David Wisnia <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > snipped
> 
> > > WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in
> > > the nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are
> > > NOT counted in our computer/pupil ratio.
> >
> > We have 11 RPC SA - they do count and they run the Acorn version of
> > current PC software that everyone is raving about! We have
> > a vast range of software supporting all curriculum areas. The reason
> > that they will be disappearing over the next two years is because of
> > lack of Macromedia Director and not-capable-enough browser problems.
> 
> The Firefox port should put paid to the latter issue fairly soon,
> though I don't know what if anything can be done about the former.
> 
> > Interestingly some of the best PC software are rewrites from BBC -
> > RISC OS.
> 
> I am not surprised -- there was some good stuff around even then, and
> much of it can still do a useful job today.  It is all too common for
> so many of those not as enlightened as many here to dismiss anything
> not bang up-to-date and flashy, whereas we know better than to fall
> into that rather obvious trap.
> 
> Though not related to schools, it is worth mentioning in passing that
> the game "Eve" is currently being touted on the SciFi Channel's
> Sci-Gamer feature, and the (new) presenter makes reference to "the
> classic game Elite" and this new game's similar basic premise.
> 
> > There are of course many pieces of software that we use in
> > our PC suite too that have no equivalent on RISC OS.
> 
> That's okay.  It looks like a mixed environment would be the best way
> to proceed, so that no babies are thrown out with the bathwater,
> bridges aren't burned, and any other appropriate saying.
> 
We said that too... different platform, same software - why ditch the
older, capable machines because they weren't Windows - so we didn't.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/15/2005 10:39:46 PM
In message <4d5c312244john@acornusers.org>
          John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:

> In article <824c2f5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
>    David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > snipped
> 
> > > OK, keep the old machines that are still running, but they are
> > > only really good for the little ones to play with rather than
> > > doing any serious learning.
> 
> > You need to visit my school, Ray, you are way, way off track.
> 
> > Our RISC OS machines are attached to a 2Mbit internet connection
> > and positively fly on the internet with Oregano 2 and Microsoft
> > Exchange.
> 
> You can access the websites you need to visit that way?  I am not
> sufficiently familar with the topic, so stating (as I have done
> recently) that I can access more-or-less all the sites /I/ need to
> visit isn't at all the same thing (I mention just in case anyone wants
> to make something of that!)

Children can find information and extract graphics to put onto Textease
pages, though not text, as Oregano 2 doesn't do that.

> 
> > Textease Studio+ is our staple product which is used for 1001
> > purposes.
> 
> You mean for cleaning a big, big carpet?  ;-)
> 
> > Children take these machines seriously and do serious, first class
> > work to a good level. In fact they don't really care which type of
> > computer they're on.
> 
> I am very pleased to read this.  I suspect it might well turn out to
> be more important than we yet realise to maintain this kind of
> diversity in education.
> 
> Extrapolating what has happened here in recent years does not produce
> a very pleasant picture for the next half-generation (i.e. within the
> next eight to ten years, say) with effectively total American
> mega-corporation possession of our education system a likely result,
> with all that such a situation would entail.  Think American TV and
> its British counterpart in Sky...
> 

-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/15/2005 10:42:39 PM
In article <4d5c2fff6cjohn@acornusers.org>,
   John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <08bd2e5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
>    David Wisnia <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > snipped

> > > WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in
> > > the nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are
> > > NOT counted in our computer/pupil ratio.
> >
> > We have 11 RPC SA - they do count and they run the Acorn version of
> > current PC software that everyone is raving about! We have
> > a vast range of software supporting all curriculum areas. The reason
> > that they will be disappearing over the next two years is because of
> > lack of Macromedia Director and not-capable-enough browser problems.

> The Firefox port should put paid to the latter issue fairly soon,
> though I don't know what if anything can be done about the former.

If only that was really true!  Without an up to date Javascript, Java and
Flash there is no way that it would be an acceptable match for the PC/Mac
offerings.  Sadly.

Cheers

Alan
[Snip]


0
alan.calder (319)
4/15/2005 11:19:34 PM
In message <4d5c371c71alan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
          alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5c2fff6cjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > In article <08bd2e5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,
> >    David Wisnia <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > > snipped
> 
> > > > WE have a few Acorn A3020s in our school, but they are used in
> > > > the nursery where it doesn't matter so much. These computers are
> > > > NOT counted in our computer/pupil ratio.
> > >
> > > We have 11 RPC SA - they do count and they run the Acorn version of
> > > current PC software that everyone is raving about! We have
> > > a vast range of software supporting all curriculum areas. The reason
> > > that they will be disappearing over the next two years is because of
> > > lack of Macromedia Director and not-capable-enough browser problems.
> 
> > The Firefox port should put paid to the latter issue fairly soon,
> > though I don't know what if anything can be done about the former.
> 
> If only that was really true!  Without an up to date Javascript, 

An integral part of Firefox. The SpiderMonkey library is effectively the 
reference implementation.

> Java 

http://www.kaffe.org/ (of which there already exists a command-line port)

> and Flash 

Try these 4 different possibilities for size:

1) Persuade Oregan to include improved Flash in Oregano3.
2) Port swfdec (http://swfdec.sf.net/) and add ActionScript/Flash5/6/7 
   support
3) Wait for gplflash2 (http://gplflash.sf.net) to get to a sensible state
   and then port that (You'll also need an OpenGL implementation, as they're
   intending to target OpenGL as the rendering backend)
4) License Macromedia's implementation and port it to RISC OS.

I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a non-x86 platform
(this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free player, 
either. RISC OS isn't the only platform without a fully up-to-date Flash
player.

Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either. I've 
lost count of the number of times this has been explained.

So, who's going to stop complaining about things and actually _do_ something
to remedy the situation? All I ever see on these newsgroups (and elsewhere)
is people bemoaning the lack of support for X under RISC OS, someone coming
along with a solution which supports X and then people moaning that it 
doesn't also support Y or Z (without bothering to find out if Y or Z have 
anything whatsoever to do with X). Is it any wonder there are so few 
developers left?


John.
0
jmb202 (301)
4/15/2005 11:51:10 PM
In message <24bb335c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>
          David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:


> 
> Children can find information and extract graphics to put onto Textease
> pages, though not text, as Oregano 2 doesn't do that.

I hope you teach them about the importance of respecting copyright.
It's something my colleagues don't seem to do, so the weans don't believe me
when I tell them that nothing on the web can be copied (e.g. onto projects
or homework) unless the page specifically says it's OK. That, bizarrely,
includes the bbc schools subsite (unless they've changed their Terms since
last I looked).

I've had a few run-ins with our local authority website authors on this precise
issue: they seemed to think that the web is a free-for-all: at one point
they were actually hotlinking images (without permission).

Not being able to extract text would bother me greatly, as it saves so much
time when preparing worksheets, more so if the site is well authored.

It's a cleft stick for pupils: certainly there's a danger that, as Chris
Wilkinson told us, "Nowadays, your differentiation in grading is made
easier: the bright kids are those who tippex out "copyright Encarta"
(cynically highlighting the obvious danger of encouraging pupils to research
homework online.)

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 12:02:48 AM
In article <17013a5c4d.jmb@moose.pipex.net>,
   John-Mark Bell <jmb202@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5c371c71alan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
>           alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4d5c2fff6cjohn@acornusers.org>,
> >    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > > In article <08bd2e5c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>,

[Snip]

> > > The Firefox port should put paid to the latter issue fairly soon,
> > > though I don't know what if anything can be done about the former.
> > 
> > If only that was really true!  Without an up to date Javascript, 

> An integral part of Firefox. The SpiderMonkey library is effectively the 
> reference implementation.

> > Java 

> http://www.kaffe.org/ (of which there already exists a command-line port)

Of which Peter Naull says he will *consider* completing the work needed if
his Firefox port goes well.

> > and Flash 

> Try these 4 different possibilities for size:

> 1) Persuade Oregan to include improved Flash in Oregano3. 2) Port swfdec
> (http://swfdec.sf.net/) and add ActionScript/Flash5/6/7 support 3) Wait
> for gplflash2 (http://gplflash.sf.net) to get to a sensible state and
> then port that (You'll also need an OpenGL implementation, as they're
>    intending to target OpenGL as the rendering backend) 4) License
> Macromedia's implementation and port it to RISC OS.

All of which depend on *someone* doing the work needed and/or paying large
sums of money.  What Oregano3 has to do with I fail to see.

> I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a non-x86
> platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free
> player, either. RISC OS isn't the only platform without a fully
> up-to-date Flash player.

In which case they are hardly in a position to pitch for the education
market either!

> Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either.
> I've lost count of the number of times this has been explained.

And is fully understood at this this end! However you don't need to have
colour to watch television but have a guess which of B&W and colour sells
most!

And I haven't mentioned things like RealAudio...

> So, who's going to stop complaining about things and actually _do_
> something to remedy the situation? All I ever see on these newsgroups
> (and elsewhere) is people bemoaning the lack of support for X under RISC
> OS, someone coming along with a solution which supports X and then
> people moaning that it doesn't also support Y or Z (without bothering
> to find out if Y or Z have anything whatsoever to do with X). Is it any
> wonder there are so few developers left?

Here I am waiting and willing to buy stuff.  I am no programmer so I can't
do the work but I do have ability to hand over the dosh!  Firefox I have
already pledged a largish amount of cash to - Oregano3 I will buy if and
when - Martin Wuerthner has me hauling the old plastic out whenever he
produces something.  No problem here.  Nor am I moaning but I am realistic
in that it is no good trying to sell RISC OS as an equal choice to Windows
by saying that *some* of the software does *some* of  the things that are
needed.  For characters like me that's fine - fiddling about with 5
browsers in an attempt to get somewhere is a bit of fun but try asking a
hard-pressed geography teacher to do that during a lesson with the Ofsted
inspector watching!

And if only it was just the lack of a decent browser that keeps RISC OS out
of schools!  Where's the replacement for Eureka, the Powerpoint equivalent
(yes, I have OHP & OHP2), new versions of Photodesk, the video editor....?
The list goes on and on.

I am daft about my RISC OS machines but having fought for them at school
until way beyond the time it was sensible to stop I know the limitations
for everday school work.  And that was 5 years ago since when what has
changed beyond some hardware updates?  All very nice (and I own some of
them) but the software issue has hardly been addressed.

I am certainly not blaming anyone at all.  Except maybe the wierd behaviour
back at Acorn when there was still a chance to change things! All power to
those few noble guys who are still trying to give us stuff that works - may
their tribe increase!  But it does seem to be a failing of our community
that we think that all we need is new hardware and a few ports of stuff and
hey! all's well!  Too often sour arguments and an unwillingness to pay the
real costs of things (remember the moans over the price John Kortink wanted
for his excellent Viewfinder kit and remember what happened to that!) is
what we get.

Sorry about the rant but it is 5am and the neighbours are still playing
their country music way too high!  I'll feel better sometime.

Cheers

Alan


0
alan.calder (319)
4/16/2005 3:47:55 AM
John-Mark Bell <jmb202@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message news:
<snip> 
> Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either. I've 
> lost count of the number of times this has been explained.
<snip>
Technically this is entirely correct.

However to the user it does not matter *how* the interaction between
the code that displays Flash animations and the main browser program
is arranged on a technical level (for example integrated in O2
separate app in Netsurf).

Browser users *expect* to be able to view all sorts of content via
their web browser. Telling them that some content is viewable by
plugins that have *nothing* to do with their browser won't help the
situation.

All the user wants to be able to do is follow a link to/on a webpage
and see the content in Flash format.

A browser is a browser yes you are correct. But without those
'plugins' a browser isn't much use anymore.

It is not good nor bad it is simply the way things are.
Regards
Stan
0
workstuff (184)
4/16/2005 8:30:37 AM
In article <4d5bdc2e1dusenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>, pv
<URL:mailto:usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant142054b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > I wish we had 40 quid gross margin per PC, to be honest. If it's true, of
> > course, you should have reported this to the police, Paul. It's called
> > corruption and is illegal. Or, if you prefer swifter action, report it to
> > the Inland Revenue, who would be fascinated to hear about several grand
> > in untaxed income.
> 
> Of course, this was about 10 years ago - when PCs were much more expensive,
> and presumably had a bigger profit margin.
> Plus, I suspect some other members of this newsgroup will back me up on
> this, based on experiences in Hampshire.....

Ten years ago the margins might have been a bit fatter, but it was
still illegal. As a member of the Acorn reseller community ten years
ago, and knowing the Acorn area Sales Manager very well, I would
certainly have heard of anything of that sort damaging sales chances.
And I didn't. There was the case in Hampshire where a PC assembler was
selling "naked" PCs, and telling schools the LEA already held Windows
licences. This, obviously, gave them a competitive edge on price, for
which they were slapped down by Microsoft.

Moreover, ten years ago the provision of ICT in Hampshire was very
tightly controlled by the LEA, as it could be. It's only with the
liberalization of the market and the reduction in LEA control since the
introduction of the massive extra ICT funding by the current government
under the NGfL that this could that schools have had much direct
control over their own purchasing strategies.

The fact of the stupid Italians sending the Acorn carriage to the
breakers yard, just when everyone else was hitching on to the NGfL
gravy train, is something that annoys me a lot.  
> 
> > I know you won't believe me, but we have never ever offered bribes to
> > customers to make them buy PCs, nor do Microsoft offer us any incentives
> > to sell their product, nor have they ever done so.
> 
> Oh, I'm certainly not saying it was necessarily a country wide conspiracy,
> but I do know of a several independent and difference cases of the same
> thing going on.
>
If you know and have proof, please report them to the authorities.
Doing anything else is condoning the offence. Having survived in the
education ICT business by being honest for the past dozen or more
years, corruption of this sort has a direct effect on me. We lost a lot
of sales in Cornwall due to a company called Potential, who were
supplying computers with a really nice bundle of software for very low
prices. It turns out that they were stealing all the licences, leaving
the schools with lots of illegal software, for which they were liable.

As far as it goes, there is no RISC OS product at the minute saleable
in bulk to schools. Over the years, I've suggested routes to various
manufacturers whereby they could repackage older hardware to make
something that would create a steady revenue stream. The ideas have
never born fruit. I've kept to the principles of low Cost of Ownership
that I've held since the Acorn days. This has meant selling higher
priced PC systems than competitors, but it has worked over the long
term. We're still here. However, I can now sell a box which exceeds
the WEEE and RHO standards, never mind Blue Angel noise pollution
levels, for around 350 quid. With a pukka onsite warranty for three
years. There isn't going to be a RISC OS box at that point for a vary
long time. Although if Jack or JB know there is and email me, I'll
promise to go away, shut up and work with them to start shifting units
into schools (:-)

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/16/2005 8:36:13 AM
In article <4d5be2b991john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant1420220b09GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
> <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5b649adfjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> > <URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <74a2545b4d.dswis@freeuk.net>, David <dswis@freeuk.com>
> > > responded to:
> > > 
> > > > > RISC OS systems can deliver the National Curriculum at least as
> > > > > well as Windows systems. If anyone suggests otherwise they are
> > > > > lying.
> > > > > 
> > > > > And the DfES have in the past always stated that they are only
> > > > > interested in delivery of the NC.
> > > > > 
> > > > Sorry John, but it is no longer the case in primary schools. Without
> > > > the ability to use interactive content on the web with Macromedia
> > > > Director and Flash (and Java) there is a clear lead for any OS that
> > > > can. As I've said many times before, that's all we need to be back
> > > > at the races!
> > > 
> > > Sorry Dave, but I was careful with what I wrote:
> > > 
> > > 1. RISC OS can deliver the NC as well (at least) as Windows - though
> > > Windows fails to deliver in a number of ways. NB the NC has been
> > > altered to suit Windows dropping items that Windows cannot do and
> > > adding items that only Windows can do - but as far as I am aware they
> > > haven't yet managed to change the subject to WCT.
> > >
> > The issue is not solely with ICT as a subject.
> 
> True.
> 
> > (Which it shouldn't be anyway, IMHO, for much the same reason as Pencils
> > aren't a subject)
> 
> Pencils are a subject of their own in infant classes - for the short time
> it takes to learn to use one. Unless you're capable of teaching the use of
> computers and computing and introducing all programs with just a few hours
> of practice then you need to do a bit more for IT.

Teaching kids how to log on to a computer should not take lots of time.
Learning to use a mouse is not difficult, typing is a bit harder.

> 
> > Your knowledge of the use of computers in education does seem a little
> > dated.
> 
> It is I'm afraid Mike. I hanker after those days when IT was taught by
> someone who knew what they were talking about. I realise that those lesson
> were often interrupted by watching the dinosaurs pass the classroom window
> and that in these modern days it's deemed much more appropriate to teach
> ICT (notice the extra but highly irrelevant letter) with the assistance to
> someone who knows only that BG (bless His cotton socks) invented everything
> computer-wise and is all-understanding and whose system is not only the
> last word but is also the alpha and omega (I wonder if anyone has told
> Microdigital?).

As I said, you are out of touch. And the "teaching of ICT" (yes, I
agree, the C is irrelevant; what's the point of information if you don't
communicate it) is something that doesn't need to be formalised. If
kids can learn to use computers because in creating a piece of work
they need to type something to label an image captured by a digital
camera (something my son wanted to do the other day; we used Textease,
obviously, as Worm is crap at labelling or even handling images), then
they are learning ICT skills.  
> 
> > Taking the things out of the "ICT" ghetto and integrating them into the
> > whole curriculum is essential
> 
> Absolutely essential because that's the only sure way to ensure that IT
> (sorry - lost that extra C again) is taught only by those who don't
> understand what they are doing.

What do you mean? Computers are tools. Okay, so it might be necessary
to show people how to use them, but there is no magic or sacred rite
involved. 

Got to stop now, to take small daughter to fitba.

Bye

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/16/2005 8:51:57 AM
In message <222276e7.0504160030.26743386@posting.google.com>
          workstuff@mail.com (spookje) wrote:


> 
> Browser users *expect* to be able to view all sorts of content via
> their web browser. Telling them that some content is viewable by
> plugins that have *nothing* to do with their browser won't help the
> situation.
> 
And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and for
others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for myself.
Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very soon refuse
to use it.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 8:56:26 AM
In message <4d5c4fadf2alan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
          alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <17013a5c4d.jmb@moose.pipex.net>,
>    John-Mark Bell <jmb202@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> > http://www.kaffe.org/ (of which there already exists a command-line port)
>
> Of which Peter Naulls says he will *consider* completing the work
> needed if his Firefox port goes well.

I don't understand what your point is.  If you're worried about me or
someone else being able to carry it out, then it's in your best
interests to make sure it's possible.   Repeating the need for it over
and over on usenet isn't a useful step in this direction.

> > 1) Persuade Oregan to include improved Flash in Oregano3. 2) Port swfdec
> > (http://swfdec.sf.net/) and add ActionScript/Flash5/6/7 support 3) Wait
> > for gplflash2 (http://gplflash.sf.net) to get to a sensible state and
> > then port that (You'll also need an OpenGL implementation, as they're
> >    intending to target OpenGL as the rendering backend) 4) License
> > Macromedia's implementation and port it to RISC OS.
> 
> All of which depend on *someone* doing the work needed and/or paying large
> sums of money.  What Oregano3 has to do with I fail to see.

Oregano's integration of flash has been explained a number of times.  I
think John-Mark's point is clear enough.   I'm not sure what point
you're trying to make here is either, however.

> > I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a non-x86
> > platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free
> > player, either. RISC OS isn't the only platform without a fully
> > up-to-date Flash player.
> 
> In which case they are hardly in a position to pitch for the education
> market either!

Without knowing who "they" are, this is a bit meaningless.  But x86
Linux clearly does have such a player, as John-Mark has said.

> > Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either.
> > I've lost count of the number of times this has been explained.
> 
> And is fully understood at this this end! However you don't need to have
> colour to watch television but have a guess which of B&W and colour sells
> most!

But the problem is that it seems the distinction of
Java/Javascript/Flash wasn't fully understood as indicated by your
original statement.  Chances are, you do understand it (it's been
explained plenty of times indeed), but making unclear statements about
the distinction (or lack therefore) between them all doesn't clarify the
situation for others who are less sure.

> And I haven't mentioned things like RealAudio...

....please don't.  It's been discussed extensively already.

[snip]

I think you've missed much of what John-Mark's point is.   In the first
instance he's asking for people to not keep on bemoaning ad nauseum the
lack of given technologies, and giving commentary on what does happen
when a given thing does appear - endless complaining will simply move to
the next item.

Secondly, there are _numerous_ things non-developers can do.   No, don't
expect developers to be always be able to tell you what they are - use
your imagination.  After all, users expect developers to use theirs on a
daily basis to solve often inscructable technical problems to bring
these new things to RISC OS.

Finally, and my own point, the rate at which these new things arrive on
RISC OS is proportional to the number of developers.  Given that there
are so few, _any_ increase will bring a noticeable increase.  What are
you doing to encourage new developers, and indeed, ensure that existing
ones stay?


-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drobe - http://www.drobe.co.uk/        | The Premier RISC OS News Site
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/16/2005 9:20:07 AM
In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
> with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and
> for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for
> myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very
> soon refuse to use it.

If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
sites and not others.

If they laugh at you you're doing it wrong.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 9:38:50 AM
In message <222276e7.0504160030.26743386@posting.google.com>
          workstuff@mail.com (spookje) wrote:

> John-Mark Bell <jmb202@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote in message news:
> <snip> 
> > Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either. I've 
> > lost count of the number of times this has been explained.
> <snip>
> Technically this is entirely correct.
> 
> However to the user it does not matter *how* the interaction between
> the code that displays Flash animations and the main browser program
> is arranged on a technical level (for example integrated in O2
> separate app in Netsurf).
> 
> Browser users *expect* to be able to view all sorts of content via
> their web browser. Telling them that some content is viewable by
> plugins that have *nothing* to do with their browser won't help the
> situation.
> 
> All the user wants to be able to do is follow a link to/on a webpage
> and see the content in Flash format.
> 
> A browser is a browser yes you are correct. But without those
> 'plugins' a browser isn't much use anymore.

No, I don't buy this attitude, not for a second.  It's the old head in
the sand.  The paradox is that RISC OS users (and I'm specifically
naming RISC OS users, not users from any other platform) have a very
close relationship to developers and the products and yet want things to
"just work" without understanding.  This contradiction is compounded by
the extensive lengths that have been gone to to explain the details
comprehensively in layman's terms.

If users are going to demand that given technologies work on RISC OS,
then it's very much in their interest to understand them - at least at a
superficial level and the basic interaction with other components.
Given the above explanations (e.g. the articles on drobe about virtually
every aspect of RISC OS technology), this really isn't much to ask.

It's the mushroom adage in reverse.  If you're going to sit in the dark,
don't be surprised if you swallow something nasty.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix Programs on RISC OS               | http://www.riscos.info/unix/
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/16/2005 9:44:16 AM
In article <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
> > with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and
> > for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for
> > myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very
> > soon refuse to use it.

> If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
> way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
> differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> sites and not others.

This is not for an IT class.  If it were, then your suggestion makes some
sense.  If pupils need to get information, then they ned to use a browser
that shows all the facilities of any site they might visit.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 10:18:20 AM
John Cartmell wrote:

> In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
>>with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and
>>for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for
>>myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very
>>soon refuse to use it.
> 
> If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
> way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
> differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> sites and not others.

I think the main point I'd make against most of what you say John is
that in "my" day we were taught computers as a subject in itself - I
enjoyed this.

Times have changed, things have moved on and computers are just a part
of every day life - and as part of this are used to assist with
teaching.

25 years ago the only time you'd use a computer in a school was to learn
about computers (okay, there were exceptions), these days you're much
more likely to use a computer to assist with the learning on another
subject.

Getting back to the point...

Your comment about HTML being rendered differently on different browsers
is a good one - and in an I.T. based lesson I'd hope that this would
be explained if the subject matter was "The Web" (or something loosely
based on it) - but the chances are the lesson isn't anything to do
with computers or the internet - it's just the comptuters are being
used to help learn about whatever the subject might be. So.. the
teacher pops along to some fancy multimedia flash based animation
that explains something to the students...

My basic view on this is a simple one - teaching fundamental I.T.
where /generic/ skills should be taught rather than Microsoft specifics
should be done on whatever platform suits these needs best. Teaching
other subjects where computers facilitate learning should also be done
on the most suited machine - what I would say though is that these
machines needent be the same.

If you want me to be 100% honest I think a variety of computers within
schools is a good thing; if only to show students that not everything
is the same.

The trouble is I guess is that if you have an all singing all dancing
Windows based PC in the classroom and I.T suite full of "old" Risc PCs
isn't going to go down too well.

Cheers,

Stuart.
0
stuart1 (260)
4/16/2005 10:23:08 AM
In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > Absolutely essential because that's the only sure way to ensure that IT
> > (sorry - lost that extra C again) is taught only by those who don't
> > understand what they are doing.

> What do you mean? Computers are tools. Okay, so it might be necessary
> to show people how to use them, but there is no magic or sacred rite
> involved.

Of course there is no magic - except the magic that is present in learning
and understanding anything. You want to take the magic and the
understanding out of the equation and train the kids to press buttons; I'm
crying "thief". You're stealing their chance of understanding and
empowerment. You want to train mill fodder; I want to educate engineers,
teachers, inventors, and citizens.

> Got to stop now, to take small daughter to fitba.

I want your daughter, and my granddaughter, to live in a society that
values knowledge and understanding and empowerment for all.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:30:22 AM
In article <ant1608130b09GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> Ten years ago the margins might have been a bit fatter, but it was
> still illegal. As a member of the Acorn reseller community ten years
> ago, and knowing the Acorn area Sales Manager very well, I would
> certainly have heard of anything of that sort damaging sales chances.
> And I didn't.

In rejecting pv's claim of corrupt practice you actually mention two that
were caught. There were others. The difference between knowing of such
instances and being able to provide the documentary evidence for a court
means that many will not surface. Acorn kept a very tight control (too
tight*) that ensured that cowboys promoted the totally uncontrolled Windows
market - where there was plenty of room for a vast range of support and
repair scams. They thrived when money started to be pumped into IT.

*not that I'm advocating fraud but the Xemplar debacle led to Acorn paying
dealers for work they had not done (because a school was in their area) and
not pay dealers that had sold the equipment. There were multiple reasons
for Acorn's failure in schools at the end of its corporate life.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:40:57 AM
In message <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
          Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:


> Teaching kids how to log on to a computer should not take lots of time.
Gosh!
Come and teach our 'bottom sections', then.
Pleeeeeeeeeeease!

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 10:42:17 AM
In message <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <222276e7.0504160030.26743386@posting.google.com>
>           workstuff@mail.com (spookje) wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > Browser users *expect* to be able to view all sorts of content via
> > their web browser. Telling them that some content is viewable by
> > plugins that have *nothing* to do with their browser won't help the
> > situation.
> > 
> And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
> with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and for
> others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for myself.
> Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very soon refuse
> to use it.
> 
> Slainte
> 
> Liz
> 

We have RISC OS in the classroom (up to 4 machines) and the children
are told they can get information and photos. Interactive sites - use
the PC suite. It isn't a problem as they can reach their personal
folders from any machine in school.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/16/2005 10:54:34 AM
In article <4260e78e$0$304$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Stuart
Marshall <stuart@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell wrote:

> > In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> > <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> >>And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put
> >>up with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A
> >>and for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here
> >>for myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would
> >>very soon refuse to use it.
> > 
> > If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in
> > the way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know
> > of the differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition
> > and properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for
> > some sites and not others.

> I think the main point I'd make against most of what you say John is
> that in "my" day we were taught computers as a subject in itself - I
> enjoyed this.

In 'my' day there was only one computer in the region - but we did get to
visit the corridor outside its air-conditioned suite and watch the computer
operators wearing white overalls, ultra-clean overshoes and hats.

> Times have changed, things have moved on and computers are just a part
> of every day life - and as part of this are used to assist with teaching.

Things have changed slightly.   ;-)

> 25 years ago the only time you'd use a computer in a school was to learn
> about computers (okay, there were exceptions), these days you're much
> more likely to use a computer to assist with the learning on another
> subject.

Good.
But that doesn't mean there is no need to teach how computers work and for
that teaching to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. The
point is accepted for Maths (why not just *do* it in science &c?) and
English (why not just do it in all other subjects?) and PE (why not just do
it play and walking to school?) and Art (why not just do it when the RE
teacher says do me a picture to go with this text?) and RE (why not just do
it as a prayer in assembly?) and...

You get the point?
Every other tool tht we use in school is taught as a subject or as part of
a subject - hopefully by experts.
Except IT.

So why is IT different? Because they didn't have enough experts so -
instead of accepting that problem and doing something about it - they
simply stated that everyone was an IT expert and ICT could be taught by
every teavcher 'across the curriculum'.
It was a lie. It's still a lie. And it's a lie that's short-changing our
kids at massive expense.

Of course there are now less people in schools complaining about all this -
because large numbers of the IT competent teachers that were in there
teaching have given up in disgust.

> Getting back to the point...

> Your comment about HTML being rendered differently on different browsers
> is a good one - and in an I.T. based lesson I'd hope that this would be
> explained if the subject matter was "The Web" (or something loosely
> based on it) - but the chances are the lesson isn't anything to do with
> computers or the internet - it's just the comptuters are being used to
> help learn about whatever the subject might be. So.. the teacher pops
> along to some fancy multimedia flash based animation that explains
> something to the students...

Which is why we need IT competent teachers teaching IT so that kids can
learn and understand.

> My basic view on this is a simple one - teaching fundamental I.T. where
> /generic/ skills should be taught rather than Microsoft specifics should
> be done on whatever platform suits these needs best. Teaching other
> subjects where computers facilitate learning should also be done on the
> most suited machine - what I would say though is that these machines
> needent be the same.

Absolutely. But that's a difficult job to do and needs to be done by that
IT competent teacher with an expert's overview of the subject and not a xxx
teacher who can use one program.

> If you want me to be 100% honest I think a variety of computers within
> schools is a good thing; if only to show students that not everything is
> the same.

Absolutely.

> The trouble is I guess is that if you have an all singing all dancing
> Windows based PC in the classroom and I.T suite full of "old" Risc PCs
> isn't going to go down too well.

The trouble is that the Windows machines are not 'all singing and dancing'
but the curriculum is being changed so that IT becomes what Windows
machines can do and the bits they can't do - or don't do well or do with
difficulty - are being phased out of the curriculum.

That's corrupt. Straight out of Orwell.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:59:46 AM
In message <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
> way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
> differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> sites and not others.
> 
My job is not to teach this to kids.
Luckily, we don't have an 'every teacher an IT teacher' mentality up
here, even if "Connected" would like this to be the case.

In fact, I seldom use computers in the classroom with the kids.
I would only use computers if it improved their experience in my subject,
and there's almost nothing available, and nothing good. 
I don't have the time I need for coveing the syllabus, far less
experimenting with browsers.

By contrast, I'm surrounded by the Modern Languages dept. Lots and lots of
money has been poured into ML multimedia resouces, and training staff on
using it effectively. The programs they use are educational and *fun* -
sometimes when kids are working in the base when I'm in, I'm tempted to push
them off and have a go myself! The attainment in ML has gone up demonstrably
(measured by exam grades) since their introduction. 

However, they are *not* training kids in IT through ML, the IT is only one
tool they use to deliver Modern Languages.

I realise this is a concept you have never really understood.



> If they laugh at you you're doing it wrong.

They wouldn't laugh at me, they'd laugh at the computer which ran the
browsers which wouldn't let them do what they wanted/needed to do, knowing
that other computers/browsers do it no bother.
"Flash (etc) isn't standard? So what? Other (implied: better) computers run it.
We'll use them."

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 11:00:45 AM
In article <4d5c736c55charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> > <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > > And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to
> > > put up with a situation where to see some sites you have to use
> > > browser A and for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well
> > > enough here for myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c***
> > > computer', and would very soon refuse to use it.

> > If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in
> > the way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know
> > of the differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition
> > and properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for
> > some sites and not others.

> This is not for an IT class.  If it were, then your suggestion makes
> some sense.  If pupils need to get information, then they ned to use a
> browser that shows all the facilities of any site they might visit.

That's OK as long as they also have IT classes taken by an IT competent
teacher who does show them the differences and explain why they occur. If
there isn't such an IT class then it's up to the French, English, Art,
Science, &c teacher to do that job. In general I'd say they're not
competent to do that but, when "IT across the curriculum" was first
proposed I was assured that **all** teachers were fully competent to teach
all aspects of IT and each subject would be given time to include all
background work on IT as a subject.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 11:07:12 AM
In message <4260e78e$0$304$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>
          Stuart Marshall <stuart@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:


> I think the main point I'd make against most of what you say John is
> that in "my" day we were taught computers as a subject in itself - I
> enjoyed this.

Computing Studies is taught as a discrete subject in Scotland.


> The trouble is I guess is that if you have an all singing all dancing
> Windows based PC in the classroom and I.T suite full of "old" Risc PCs
....Or even Iyonixes.
           ^^^^^^^^ (is that the correct plural? - pretty dissonant!)

> isn't going to go down too well.
And certainly wouldn't encourage them to buy a RO computer on their own, or
consider them for buisness use.

John must move in totally different circles than I do.
Apart from the computing staff and the IT and AV techs, no-one I know at
s***** has the least interest in how computers work, programming or anything
else, they just want it to do what they want it to do. 

It was a topic of conversation at our Camera Club dinner on Thursday: not
instigated by me, I hasten to add. Generally, the same remarks which come up
here were made, "I don't need to know how my car works to get where I want
to go", "I don't know how my oven works, but dinner comes out every night".
Most of us no more want to get into the innards of a computer than we'd want
to get under the car.

I fully accept that there are people who love programming, or love the
physical side of the innards of computers. Let's hope that the best of them
go into the profession and make improvements which the rest of us want, or
go into repairs etc. Like those who are fascinated by cars can go into
design, production or repair.

The rest of us can enjoy the fruits of their passion.

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 11:11:38 AM
On 16 Apr, John Cartmell wrote in message
  <4d5c748650john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > What do you mean? Computers are tools. Okay, so it might be necessary
> > to show people how to use them, but there is no magic or sacred rite
> > involved.
> 
> Of course there is no magic - except the magic that is present in
> learning and understanding anything. You want to take the magic and the
> understanding out of the equation and train the kids to press buttons;
> I'm crying "thief". You're stealing their chance of understanding and
> empowerment. You want to train mill fodder; I want to educate engineers,
> teachers, inventors, and citizens.

The last time I checked, engineers used computers as tools too.  I
certainly do.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/16/2005 11:14:42 AM
On 16 Apr, John Cartmell wrote in message
  <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put
> > up with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A
> > and for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here
> > for myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would
> > very soon refuse to use it.
> 
> If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in
> the way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of
> the differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> sites and not others.

If you're teaching website design, that is reasonable.  If the lesson is
maths, or geography, or whatever web resources are used in these days (in
my day, computers lived in the computer room and were used for programming
in BBC BASIC), you use a standard, familiar browser.  In reality, that
means Internet Explorer of FireFox at the moment.

Outside of IT lessons, the computer is a tool used as a means to an end,
not an object of interest in itself.  When we used to watch videos in
lessons, I don't recall ever getting hung up over whether the programme
was on VHS or Betamax -- VHS was used as the common standard.

> If they laugh at you you're doing it wrong.

The browsers available on RISC OS at present are a joke.  I hope that
FireFox and NetSurf between them can go some way to changing this.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/16/2005 11:21:16 AM
In article <4d5c773763john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> But that doesn't mean there is no need to teach how computers work and for
> that teaching to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. The
> point is accepted for Maths (why not just *do* it in science &c?) 

I don't think it is any more.  My wife (a, now retired, science teacher)
discovered that maths needed for biology wasn't taught until a year later
than it was needed to be used.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 11:24:58 AM
In message <a77b6f5c4d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:


> If users are going to demand that given technologies work on RISC OS,
> then it's very much in their interest to understand them - at least at a
> superficial level and the basic interaction with other components.
> Given the above explanations (e.g. the articles on drobe about virtually
> every aspect of RISC OS technology), this really isn't much to ask.

Fair enough.
But most buyers don't want to know why something won't work.
They'll just buy something which works.

Car parallel:
It may be that there's a great car which for some reason can't have a
radio/cassette/CD/whatever.
(I can't imagine a reason; that's irrelevant)
You can explain all you like in great detail about why it can't have a sound
system. Maybe the reason is even to do with how great the car is in other
areas.

But unless these other areas are so mega-fantastic that no-one would ever
consider a currently-normal car again, my bet is that most people would buy
the car with a sound system. Even though a CD/cassette has nothing at
all to do with getting from A to B.

Photo editors have a saying: "We don't buy excuses, we buy only results."
It applies to most other walks of commercial life too.
Do you really think a teacher, or anyone else, who is suggested RISC OS as a
platform and wants to know if it will do X, Y and Z is going to rush over to
drobe, read the excuses, and say, "OK, what a shame, we'll buy into RISC OS
anyway out of sheer sympathy? Maybe one day it'll be able to do what we want."

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 11:35:36 AM
In message <6bbd765c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>
          David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:


> We have RISC OS in the classroom (up to 4 machines) and the children
> are told they can get information and photos. Interactive sites - use
> the PC suite. It isn't a problem as they can reach their personal
> folders from any machine in school.

So they learn early that pcs are best, as they do everything, whereas RISC
OS does a subset.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 11:41:45 AM
In message <4d5c773763john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> You get the point?
> Every other tool tht we use in school is taught as a subject or as part of
> a subject - hopefully by experts.
> Except IT.
So the English system is wrong.
Adopt the Scottish system.
A computing specialist to teach computing.
Oh, what a radical idea!
Problem solved.

It won't increase the number of RISC OS computers in schools, though,
because they won't buy in a set of computers just do demonstrate that 'all
computers can't do this'.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 11:44:37 AM
In message <4260e78e$0$304$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>
          Stuart Marshall <stuart@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:

> My basic view on this is a simple one - teaching fundamental I.T.
> where /generic/ skills should be taught rather than Microsoft specifics
> should be done on whatever platform suits these needs best. Teaching
> other subjects where computers facilitate learning should also be done
> on the most suited machine - what I would say though is that these
> machines needent be the same.

You're missing the point of "education". It's not there to let kids learn
about anything, it's to indoctrinate them so they can be churned out off
the school factory line and into little cogs to keep the world of business
running.

-- 
Simon Challands
0
simon_usenet (122)
4/16/2005 11:46:14 AM
In message <3b7f7a5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <a77b6f5c4d.peter@chocky.org>
>           Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> > If users are going to demand that given technologies work on RISC OS,
> > then it's very much in their interest to understand them - at least at a
> > superficial level and the basic interaction with other components.
> > Given the above explanations (e.g. the articles on drobe about virtually
> > every aspect of RISC OS technology), this really isn't much to ask.
> 
> Fair enough.
> But most buyers don't want to know why something won't work.
> They'll just buy something which works.

Then they'll probably already have a PC, nor are we talking "most
buyers" in this instance.  What are you getting at?

> Car parallel:

[snip]

Please don't.  Car anologies rarely add any insigthful points, and only
serve to confuse with inexact comparisons.

> Photo editors have a saying: "We don't buy excuses, we buy only results."

I've not mentioned excuses.  I've mentioned understanding of what needs
to be done.

> It applies to most other walks of commercial life too.

It certainly does.  And that's why people trying to do this for a living
must focus on things which bring immediate income, not pie in the sky
projects that do not and cannot.  

> Do you really think a teacher, or anyone else, who is suggested RISC OS as a
> platform and wants to know if it will do X, Y and Z is going to rush over to
> drobe, read the excuses, and say, "OK, what a shame, we'll buy into RISC OS
> anyway out of sheer sympathy? Maybe one day it'll be able to do what we want."

I don't know, and I've certainly not suggested it was the case.  I've
not suggested that RISC OS is or isn't suitable for schools.  My
comments have to do only with the head in the sand attitude on these
groups and other forums, given the paradox I named in my post.  Again
"excuses" is your word.


-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drobe - http://www.drobe.co.uk/        | The Premier RISC OS News Site
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/16/2005 11:48:11 AM
In article <4d5bab4651usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>,
   pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> > You know there aren't many people I know, and still fewer I've seen
> > that will actually admit to being in the same room as Michael Howard.

> Actually, irrespective of whether or not you like his politics, as a
> person, he's actually a really nice man.
> Him and his wife are pretty down to earth, normal people, whom I wouldn't
> be ashamed of knowing.

The thing that puts me off is that awful braying voice - straight out of
the Thatcher stable. Plus the fact that his record when last in office
wasn't impressive.

-- 
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
4/16/2005 11:56:11 AM
In article <3b7f7a5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]


> Car parallel:
> It may be that there's a great car which for some reason can't have a
> radio/cassette/CD/whatever.
> (I can't imagine a reason; that's irrelevant)

Interesting that it was BL who wouldn't fit "new-fangled" FM radio to their
cheaper models when some programmes were only available on FM.  They also
fitted (poorly working) wing aerials when nearly every other manufacturer
put them on the roof "because that where the stylist wanted it).

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 11:59:54 AM
In article <790c6e5c4d.peter@chocky.org>,
   Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> In message <4d5c4fadf2alan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
>           alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <17013a5c4d.jmb@moose.pipex.net>,
> >    John-Mark Bell <jmb202@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> > > http://www.kaffe.org/ (of which there already exists a command-line port)
> >
> > Of which Peter Naulls says he will *consider* completing the work
> > needed if his Firefox port goes well.

> I don't understand what your point is.  If you're worried about me or
> someone else being able to carry it out, then it's in your best
> interests to make sure it's possible.   Repeating the need for it over
> and over on usenet isn't a useful step in this direction.

Sorry, Peter - I wasn't getting at you - just noting that people with
purchasing power in schools aren't impressed with the concept of "it might
happen if someone gets round to it".  Remember the subject of this thread.

> > > 1) Persuade Oregan to include improved Flash in Oregano3. 2) Port swfdec
> > > (http://swfdec.sf.net/) and add ActionScript/Flash5/6/7 support 3) Wait
> > > for gplflash2 (http://gplflash.sf.net) to get to a sensible state and
> > > then port that (You'll also need an OpenGL implementation, as they're
> > >    intending to target OpenGL as the rendering backend) 4) License
> > > Macromedia's implementation and port it to RISC OS.
> > 
> > All of which depend on *someone* doing the work needed and/or paying large
> > sums of money.  What Oregano3 has to do with I fail to see.

> Oregano's integration of flash has been explained a number of times.  I
> think John-Mark's point is clear enough.   I'm not sure what point
> you're trying to make here is either, however.

Simple. Firefox was under discussion as a possible browser to rescue the
situation - the capabilities of Oregano3 are irrelevant (also note that
'persuade')

> > > I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a non-x86
> > > platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free
> > > player, either. RISC OS isn't the only platform without a fully
> > > up-to-date Flash player.
> > 
> > In which case they are hardly in a position to pitch for the education
> > market either!

> Without knowing who "they" are, this is a bit meaningless.  But x86
> Linux clearly does have such a player, as John-Mark has said.

Except that John-Mark explicitly *excluded* x86 hardware!  My comment was
clear as day!

> > > Neither of the latter two have anything to do with a browser, either.
> > > I've lost count of the number of times this has been explained.
> > 
> > And is fully understood at this this end! However you don't need to have
> > colour to watch television but have a guess which of B&W and colour sells
> > most!

> But the problem is that it seems the distinction of
> Java/Javascript/Flash wasn't fully understood as indicated by your
> original statement.  Chances are, you do understand it (it's been
> explained plenty of times indeed), but making unclear statements about
> the distinction (or lack therefore) between them all doesn't clarify the
> situation for others who are less sure.

Not the point - yes, I do understand as you acknowledge but we were talking
about getting RISC OS machines into schools where they don't care about the
niceties - "No Flash!!! It's rubbish this machine".

> > And I haven't mentioned things like RealAudio...

> ...please don't.  It's been discussed extensively already.

Which is why I didn't! :-)

> [snip]

> I think you've missed much of what John-Mark's point is.   In the first
> instance he's asking for people to not keep on bemoaning ad nauseum the
> lack of given technologies, 

But I don't 'keep on bemoaning'!  John-Mark simply missed the point of what
the discussion was about IMHO.

> Secondly, there are _numerous_ things non-developers can do.   No, don't
> expect developers to be always be able to tell you what they are - use
> your imagination.  After all, users expect developers to use theirs on a
> daily basis to solve often inscructable technical problems to bring
> these new things to RISC OS.

I'd be happy to do as you say but this non-developer has no idea what you
are alluding to!  I could be a tester I suppose, or stick stamps on
packages.  Seriously give me a hint and I'd do my best.

> Finally, and my own point, the rate at which these new things arrive on
> RISC OS is proportional to the number of developers.  Given that there
> are so few, _any_ increase will bring a noticeable increase.  What are
> you doing to encourage new developers, and indeed, ensure that existing
> ones stay?

 Sure I mentioned something on these lines - oh yes

"Here I am waiting and willing to buy stuff.  I am no programmer so I can't
do the work but I do have ability to hand over the dosh!  Firefox I have
already pledged a largish amount of cash to - Oregano3 I will buy if and
when - Martin Wuerthner has me hauling the old plastic out whenever he
produces something.  No problem here. "

Nothing to fight about as I can see.

Cheers

Alan


0
alan.calder (319)
4/16/2005 12:03:23 PM
In message <1a537b5c4d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:


> > Do you really think a teacher, or anyone else, who is suggested RISC OS as a
> > platform and wants to know if it will do X, Y and Z is going to rush over to
> > drobe, read the excuses, and say, "OK, what a shame, we'll buy into RISC OS
> > anyway out of sheer sympathy? Maybe one day it'll be able to do what we want."
> 
> I don't know, and I've certainly not suggested it was the case.  I've
> not suggested that RISC OS is or isn't suitable for schools.  My
> comments have to do only with the head in the sand attitude on these
> groups and other forums, given the paradox I named in my post.  Again
> "excuses" is your word.

This thread is about RISC OS in schools.
The discussion was about whether schools not using RISC OS could be
persuaded to use it, rather than Windows.

Various reasons have been given here as to why RISC OS is not being used in
schools (generally lack of software).
Your post suggested people should go over to read drobe and find out why
that software doesn't exist on RISC OS.
I'm suggesting that that's not of any use in attracting non-RISC OS users to
the platform.

But now you're saying that's not what you were posting about.

Fine.  Now that's 'clear'.

Slainte.

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 12:03:43 PM
In article <7c4d785c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4260e78e$0$304$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com> Stuart
>           Marshall <stuart@spidersoft.co.uk> wrote:


> > I think the main point I'd make against most of what you say John is
> > that in "my" day we were taught computers as a subject in itself - I
> > enjoyed this.

> Computing Studies is taught as a discrete subject in Scotland.


> > The trouble is I guess is that if you have an all singing all dancing
> > Windows based PC in the classroom and I.T suite full of "old" Risc PCs
> ...Or even Iyonixes. ^^^^^^^^ (is that the correct plural? - pretty
>            dissonant!)

Boringly castle insist on IYONIX pcs with the pc bit in italics. Not very
friendly. I *much* prefer the argument over Iyonices/Iyonixes/&c - and
think the personal possession Myonix is great! ;-)

> > isn't going to go down too well.
> And certainly wouldn't encourage them to buy a RO computer on their own,
> or consider them for buisness use.

Might be different if the RISC OS machines were new machines. See the
recent/current? IconBar poll.

> John must move in totally different circles than I do. Apart from the
> computing staff and the IT and AV techs, no-one I know at s***** has the
> least interest in how computers work, programming or anything else, they
> just want it to do what they want it to do. 

Just like they don't want to be taught Maths or English? So what?

> It was a topic of conversation at our Camera Club dinner on Thursday:
> not instigated by me, I hasten to add. Generally, the same remarks which
> come up here were made, "I don't need to know how my car works to get
> where I want to go", "I don't know how my oven works, but dinner comes
> out every night". Most of us no more want to get into the innards of a
> computer than we'd want to get under the car.

That's what education is about - getting to know what goes on in, under and
behind the scenes. It doesn't matter whether it's the English language,
politics, cars, or computers. If Adults have turned brain-dead and don't
want to know then maybe their education was deficient; that's no reason to
ensure that education *is* deficient.

> I fully accept that there are people who love programming, or love the
> physical side of the innards of computers. Let's hope that the best of
> them go into the profession and make improvements which the rest of us
> want, or go into repairs etc. Like those who are fascinated by cars can
> go into design, production or repair.

> The rest of us can enjoy the fruits of their passion.

Having had an introduction into how all these things work at school and
encouraged to learn more for ourselves - in our chosen interests - later.
We won't all want to explore the Riemann hypothesis as a hobby but that
doesn't mean that we aren't all expected to study many hours of Maths at
school.

And just for your Camera Club friends - I'd say that photography should be
on the school curriculum.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 12:29:08 PM
In article <7d4e775c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> However, they are *not* training kids in IT through ML, the IT is only
> one tool they use to deliver Modern Languages.

> I realise this is a concept you have never really understood.

I certainly do understand it. Please explain it to those head teachers that
took the DfES lies to heart and pretended to implement "IT Across the
Curriculum". It doesn't work and it is destroying the lead that England &
Wales had in IT.

When I suggested that non-specialist teachers should not be expected to
deliver IT as a subject I was told that I was "insulting my colleagues'
professional capabilities".

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 12:36:45 PM
In article <580f7b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <6bbd765c4d.dswis@freeuk.net> David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:


> > We have RISC OS in the classroom (up to 4 machines) and the children
> > are told they can get information and photos. Interactive sites - use
> > the PC suite. It isn't a problem as they can reach their personal
> > folders from any machine in school.

> So they learn early that pcs are best, as they do everything, whereas
> RISC OS does a subset.

Which would be a great answer if it were true. It isn't.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 12:38:23 PM
In article <1113553848.fbbef967b442066d0aa0803c16742dda@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > He WAS in politics.

> > Some of us still are. ;-)

> So is Lord Such ...

Isn't he dead?

-- 
*Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle drugs.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
4/16/2005 12:42:54 PM
In article <4d5c7f65ebjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> And just for your Camera Club friends - I'd say that photography should be
> on the school curriculum.

and we had a maths teacher who felt schools should teach bridge, too.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 12:59:19 PM
On 16 Apr, Liz wrote in message
  <7c127d5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>:

> In message <1a537b5c4d.peter@chocky.org>
>           Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> 
> > I don't know, and I've certainly not suggested it was the case.  I've
> > not suggested that RISC OS is or isn't suitable for schools.  My
> > comments have to do only with the head in the sand attitude on these
> > groups and other forums, given the paradox I named in my post.  Again
> > "excuses" is your word.
> 
> This thread is about RISC OS in schools. The discussion was about
> whether schools not using RISC OS could be persuaded to use it, rather
> than Windows.

It's called thread drift, and it happens on Usenet.  It was certainly
clear to me that a sub-thread had evolved which was discussing the
viability (or otherwise) of web browsing on RISC OS.

> Various reasons have been given here as to why RISC OS is not being used
> in schools (generally lack of software). Your post suggested people
> should go over to read drobe and find out why that software doesn't
> exist on RISC OS. I'm suggesting that that's not of any use in
> attracting non-RISC OS users to the platform.

It isn't.  *But* if we want to be able to attract new users, *we* need to
understand the problems and the ways in which they may be resolved.  We
need to understand because we, as a userbase, need to find ways to resolve
them.

I think we can accept that, as it stands, RISC OS obviously isn't going to
be accepted for use in the modern curriculum by 'real' teachers.  Fine:
we can argue until the cows come home about the correctness of modern
education, but it won't change anything.  Peter seemed to be suggesting
the rather radical idea that we accept this, take a step back and try and
work out how we can get the software required to make RISC OS acceptable.

To do this, we need to establish what is *actually* required, whether
providing that is even technically feasible, whether doing so is practical
(time, money, developer availability, etc) and finally how to go about it. 
Sorting this out requires an understanding of the issues, not complaints
that RISC OS is useless or a rant about the victimisation of RISC OS by a
vast network of conspirators.

If you wish for the impossible, you will be disappointed; if you take
time to find out what can be done and wish for that, you stand a much
better chance of seeing a result.  Let's not try and run before we can
walk.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/16/2005 1:02:56 PM
On 16 Apr, Liz wrote in message
  <3b7f7a5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>:


> Fair enough. But most buyers don't want to know why something won't
> work. They'll just buy something which works.
> 
> Car parallel:
> It may be that there's a great car which for some reason can't have a
> radio/cassette/CD/whatever.
> (I can't imagine a reason; that's irrelevant)

From a conversation I was having with a colleague the other day, probably
because it adds weight.  The (road going) sports car we were discussing
didn't have a heater, either, for similar reasons.

I think it's called an "enthusiasts market"...

> You can explain all you like in great detail about why it can't have a
> sound system. Maybe the reason is even to do with how great the car is
> in other areas.

I think that was the general reason (for some people's definition of
"great").  Remind me why we still use RISC OS, again?

:-)

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/16/2005 1:07:20 PM
In article <7a95785c4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
<news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 16 Apr, John Cartmell wrote in message
>   <4d5c748650john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> > In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
> >    <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > What do you mean? Computers are tools. Okay, so it might be
> > > necessary to show people how to use them, but there is no magic or
> > > sacred rite involved.
> > 
> > Of course there is no magic - except the magic that is present in
> > learning and understanding anything. You want to take the magic and
> > the understanding out of the equation and train the kids to press
> > buttons; I'm crying "thief". You're stealing their chance of
> > understanding and empowerment. You want to train mill fodder; I want
> > to educate engineers, teachers, inventors, and citizens.

> The last time I checked, engineers used computers as tools too.  I
> certainly do.

And an engineer who uses a tool that (s)he doesn't understand is a failed
engineer.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 1:09:47 PM
In message <4d5c803ef0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <580f7b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <6bbd765c4d.dswis@freeuk.net> David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > We have RISC OS in the classroom (up to 4 machines) and the children
> > > are told they can get information and photos. Interactive sites - use
> > > the PC suite. It isn't a problem as they can reach their personal
> > > folders from any machine in school.
> 
> > So they learn early that pcs are best, as they do everything, whereas
> > RISC OS does a subset.
> 
> Which would be a great answer if it were true. It isn't.

Well, taking schools: 
Windows runs most subject-specific educational programs, RISC OS does not. 
Windows runs most (probably all) interactive educational websites, RISC OS
does not.

You already know about Photoshop vs Photodesk et al.
Plus our authority has a group licence for Photoshop CS which makes it c�17
per computer, without a manual (which is fine, as then you could buy
some manuals and some copies of the excellent Classroom In a Book and other
great Photoshop books.)

I could go on.
How long have you got???

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 1:13:28 PM
On 16 Apr, alan.calder wrote in message
  <4d5c7d09afalan.calder@argonet.co.uk>:

> In article <790c6e5c4d.peter@chocky.org>,
>    Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> 
> > Secondly, there are _numerous_ things non-developers can do.   No,
> > don't expect developers to be always be able to tell you what they are
> > - use your imagination.  After all, users expect developers to use
> > theirs on a daily basis to solve often inscructable technical problems
> > to bring these new things to RISC OS.
> 
> I'd be happy to do as you say but this non-developer has no idea what
> you are alluding to!  I could be a tester I suppose, or stick stamps on
> packages.  Seriously give me a hint and I'd do my best.

I'm not sure that this is actually what Peter means, but there are many
things that non-programmers can do to help developers.  All applications
need things like user-interface and window designs, graphics,
documentation, beta testing and so on.  If you're not "graphically
inclined", producing these kind of things can take (waste) a
disproportionate amount of time.

Perhaps we need a way of brokering these services, as approaching a
developer and saying "application X is great, but the graphics are rubbish
-- can I do you some new toolbar icons" isn't that diplomatic.

Then there are less hands-on things like financial support and *helpful*
advocacy.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/16/2005 1:14:06 PM
In article <912f795c4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>,
   Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> Outside of IT lessons, the computer is a tool used as a means to an end,
> not an object of interest in itself.

Except that, in England & Wales at least, schools have been pushed to
deliver IT as a subject through other lessons. You know it can't work, I
know it can't work, but that's what the idiots have insisted is a good idea
- and it has appealed to head teachers who cannot find enough qualified IT
teachers, leading to a corrupt curriculum and those specialists who remain
dispirited at what they are expected to teach. It need not be so - but it
does need people who understand what's happening to complain loudly.
Training kids to press buttons is not appropriate education and the monet
spent doing that is wasted money. The additional argument that RISC OS is a
better platform to show kids how computers work is just that - an
*additional* and *separate* argument.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 1:17:27 PM
In article <4d5c822982charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c7f65ebjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > And just for your Camera Club friends - I'd say that photography
> > should be on the school curriculum.

> and we had a maths teacher who felt schools should teach bridge, too.

So did he? It's certainly justifiable as part of the Maths curriculum! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 1:22:16 PM
In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> And the "teaching of ICT" (yes, I
> agree, the C is irrelevant; what's the point of information if you don't
> communicate it)

The C is apparently the result of a buzzword/TLA adoption of a French
mistranslation that crept back into the English speaking world.

Any fule kno that ICT = Inverness Caledonian Thistle [1] (who may or may
not use computer kit in a meaningful way.)

[1] Sadly our new director comes from an Information background, wants
Information in the department title, understands he can't upset all the
techies by leaving out Computers, and likes Technology so much he's renamed
the building as the Technology Centre - so we're "ICT Services" (do
Caledonian need servicing?)

0
4/16/2005 1:28:18 PM
In message <580f7b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <6bbd765c4d.dswis@freeuk.net>
>           David <dswis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > We have RISC OS in the classroom (up to 4 machines) and the children
> > are told they can get information and photos. Interactive sites - use
> > the PC suite. It isn't a problem as they can reach their personal
> > folders from any machine in school.
> 
> So they learn early that pcs are best, as they do everything, whereas RISC
> OS does a subset.
> 
> Slainte
> 
> Liz
> 
.... and that they can produce and print more quickly on RISC OS ... and
that whatever they do in Textease Studio on the PC suite they can do on
a computer in the classroom... and that they can also do SPEX+ and
viewing photos more quickly... and that the staff also know they can
produce letters and Textease files with word banks more quickly and
easily using RISC OS. There are plenty of benefits of using RISC OS in
our very busy real world primary school.

When I'm asked by staff to produce Textease files to support literacy
or numeracy, I'll do it on RISC OS because it is genuinely faster to do
it, test it, alter it etc. Not because I'm more used to using RISC OS,
I use Windows XP on a daily basis too.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
(Fieldhead Carr Primary School, Leeds)
0
dswis (522)
4/16/2005 1:32:25 PM
In article <4d5c831ee5john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > The last time I checked, engineers used computers as tools too.  I
> > certainly do.

> And an engineer who uses a tool that (s)he doesn't understand is a failed
> engineer.

I was taught, at a very good Engineering Dept (of a University on the edge
of the Fens) that an engineer didn't need to know the answer - (s)he needed
to know where to find it.

Sorry, John, there are just too many tools that an engineer needs to use to
know how they all work.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 1:48:22 PM
In article <4d5c844378john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c822982charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
> <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5c7f65ebjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> >    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> > > And just for your Camera Club friends - I'd say that photography
> > > should be on the school curriculum.

> > and we had a maths teacher who felt schools should teach bridge, too.

> So did he? It's certainly justifiable as part of the Maths curriculum! ;-)

Long, long, before the days of formal curricula.

and interestingly, I discovered that my degree course had no curriculum. 
"You were examined on what you were taught!"

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 1:50:27 PM
In message <53e5825c4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>
          Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:


> I think that was the general reason (for some people's definition of
> "great").  Remind me why we still use RISC OS, again?

In my case, it's because I've got so many RISC OS files that are still
useful to me that I would find it very difficult to make a total break.

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 2:00:42 PM
In message <4d5c736c55charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> > <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > > And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
> > > with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and
> > > for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for
> > > myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very
> > > soon refuse to use it.
> 
> > If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
> > way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
> > differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> > properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> > sites and not others.
> 
> This is not for an IT class.  If it were, then your suggestion makes some
> sense.  If pupils need to get information, then they ned to use a browser
> that shows all the facilities of any site they might visit.

There is no such thing.

Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2, but
shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a useful
educational site then schools using only IE would not have the benefit
of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.
Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/16/2005 2:04:30 PM
In article <4d5c80a8d3dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1113553848.fbbef967b442066d0aa0803c16742dda@teranews>,
>    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > He WAS in politics.

> > > Some of us still are. ;-)

> > So is Lord Such ...

> Isn't he dead?

Quite a bit.

0
4/16/2005 2:11:27 PM
In article <4d5c7f65ebjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> And just for your Camera Club friends - I'd say that photography should
> be on the school curriculum.

Drop the "E" :-) and yes that should be in the official curriculum as an
addition to: "recognised good behaviour while socialising"

0
4/16/2005 2:14:00 PM
In message <4d5c83d298john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> head teachers who cannot find enough qualified IT
> teachers, leading to a corrupt curriculum and those specialists who remain
> dispirited at what they are expected to teach. It need not be so - but it
> does need people who understand what's happening to complain loudly.

This is a totally separate issue, and totally OT here:
Suffice it to say:
**Why** can't 'they' get teachers?
It used to be thought it was pay, but even in computing jobs nowadays, the
pay isn't all that different nowadays. Still, the Govt. likes to think it's
pay.

It was obviously different where you taught, John, but in all the secondary
schools in our authority except one, virtually the only topic of conversaton
among teachers is discipline. It's never "what computer platform are you
using?". Compared with the discipline issue, the computer platform issue
(and most others) is pretty much irrelevant.

Discipline dispirits more teachers here than anything else. 
And leads to more 'wastage' from the profession than anything else. 
The government, of course, doesn't want to know.

Sorry: that was an OT, but not totally irrelevant, rant.

But remember, our Computing PT had a free choice what platform to use, and
*chose* to move from RISC OS to Windows. (At the time, I know that Standard
Grade could be delivered via RISC OS, PC or Macs at least, because I saw the
written materials when I was 'please-taking').
However, nowadays he uses KeyBytes and LightBytes: I don't know if they're
Windows-only; certainly *not* Microsoft, but not, AFAIK, available for RISC
OS.

I haven't noseyed around the dizzy heights of Higher Computing Studies.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 2:17:14 PM
In article <4d5c86a728charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c831ee5john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > The last time I checked, engineers used computers as tools too.  I
> > > certainly do.

> > And an engineer who uses a tool that (s)he doesn't understand is a
> > failed engineer.

> I was taught, at a very good Engineering Dept (of a University on the
> edge of the Fens) that an engineer didn't need to know the answer -
> (s)he needed to know where to find it.

Tut, bad tuition. Everyone, engineer or not, needs to know *HOW* to find
the answers. It's the techniques that count not the actual answer. Hell,
you could take a total idiot and provide them with a list of answers close
by but they wouldn't be an engineer - administrator probably.

> Sorry, John, there are just too many tools that an engineer needs to use
> to know how they all work.

General principles and an enquiring mind.

0
4/16/2005 2:18:52 PM
In message <1621885c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

> Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
> displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2, but
> shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a useful
> educational site then schools using only IE would not have the benefit
> of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.


Care to post a URI?
Have you checked it with w3c?
There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.

Only this week, I discovered a problem with a page I'd written in IE, also
Opera and NS - a whole frame in a set didn't show up.

It worked fine on Fresco, but not NS, O2 or Webster.
It was my mistake, a missing comma, which Fresco successfully ignored, which
is why I'd missed it in the first place, plus HTML Edit's validator didn't spot it.

Of course, it isn't a problem if it's a RISC OS site, and only RISC OS
browsers can read it.
Similarly, though I'm not happy about vanilla Fresco not getting onto the Make
Poverty History site, and none of the RO browsers can get on to our Camera
Club site (18 w3c errors on the home page!), and I'm going to try to 'get
something done about it' without landing the job myself, I can't find myself
getting incensed about all of the Adobe site not rendering properly on
Fresco.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 2:40:59 PM
In article <4d5c86a728charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c831ee5john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > The last time I checked, engineers used computers as tools too.  I
> > > certainly do.

> > And an engineer who uses a tool that (s)he doesn't understand is a
> > failed engineer.

> I was taught, at a very good Engineering Dept (of a University on the
> edge of the Fens) that an engineer didn't need to know the answer -
> (s)he needed to know where to find it.

Quite certainly. Which is why my IT teaching was always geared towards
giving the kids the ability to learn how to use a program for themselves
using their unerlying knowledge how how computer hardware and software
works in general.

> Sorry, John, there are just too many tools that an engineer needs to use
> to know how they all work.

They need to know how to learn. Are you telling me that's what's taught in
"IT Across the Curriculum" using Windows boxes? It certainly was what was
taught by me in IT lessons using RISC OS machines.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 2:56:09 PM
In article <4d5c84d0a5steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, Steven Pampling
<steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
>    <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > And the "teaching of ICT" (yes, I agree, the C is irrelevant; what's
> > the point of information if you don't communicate it)

> The C is apparently the result of a buzzword/TLA adoption of a French
> mistranslation that crept back into the English speaking world.

It was the name given to one French conference. Apparently some *&^%$�"! in
the DfES went and thought that was the standard name for the subject. It
was very handy for those working ever so hard to destroy the teaching of IT
as its use came in with the idea of getting non-specialists to teach the
subject. Perhaps someone had told them that learning to use a computer was
a s easy as learning to write with a pencil (yes that was an ad hominem
argument!). Anyway some schools had IT (the real thing) and ICT (MFL
teachers, English teachers, RE teachers, &c pretending to teach the
subject). Then everyone was told that IT was ICT and the curriculum was
corrupted to meet the capabilities of those teaching the 'subject' - ie
mainly people who didn't have any depth or breadth in the subject.
And it was dead easy for 'professionals' on governing bodies and sales
people to tell the (very) amateur teachers that the best systems to use in
education were those that were used in business (no they never did explain
why).

[Snip]

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 3:05:46 PM
In article <9a4b895c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> However, nowadays he uses KeyBytes

A favourite in schools that have teachers who don't know the subject but
get the computer to 'teach' the kids. You truly don't want to know my view
of departments who choose that - rather than are forced to use it in
adverse circumstances.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 3:11:10 PM
In article <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> Care to post a URI?
> Have you checked it with w3c?
> There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
> backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.

How about sites that use vector graphics? Certainly the intranet at my last
school used them intensively but they don't seem to be around on the
internet. Why not? Because Microsoft couldn't produce a decent version of
their own.

And a damned sight more needed than Flash.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 3:14:09 PM
In article <4d5c8dbd1fjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> And it was dead easy for 'professionals' on governing bodies and sales
> people to tell the (very) amateur teachers that the best systems to use in
> education were those that were used in business (no they never did explain
> why).

The explanation at SWMBO's school was very simple.  "We, at work are
throwing out these old computers and feel they should go to a good home
instead .  We know you want computers, so here they are."

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 3:30:42 PM
In message <4d5c8e3b76john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <9a4b895c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
>    Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > However, nowadays he uses KeyBytes
> 
> A favourite in schools that have teachers who don't know the subject but
> get the computer to 'teach' the kids. You truly don't want to know my view
> of departments who choose that - rather than are forced to use it in
> adverse circumstances.

Actually I learned a lot from using the prog.
:-)
It's brilliant and fun.

(He doesn't use that alone: in fact, I think it's mostly for when other
people are 'please-taking' in the dept.)

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 3:32:53 PM
In message <4d5c8e8172john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
>    Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > Care to post a URI?
> > Have you checked it with w3c?
> > There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
> > backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.
> 
> How about sites that use vector graphics? Certainly the intranet at my last
> school used them intensively but they don't seem to be around on the
> internet. Why not? Because Microsoft couldn't produce a decent version of
> their own.

More likely because, unlike jpg and gif, there isn't an interplatform 'standard'.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 3:34:23 PM
In message <a75b905c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <4d5c8e8172john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
>           John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > How about sites that use vector graphics? Certainly the intranet at my last
> > school used them intensively but they don't seem to be around on the
> > internet. Why not? Because Microsoft couldn't produce a decent version of
> > their own.
> 
> More likely because, unlike jpg and gif, there isn't an interplatform
> 'standard'.

Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'.
I suppose a web search would turn up all the info you need - I've never
wanted to use it, so I'll leave it to you.

Slainte

Liz


-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 3:44:35 PM
In article <4d5c773763john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> You get the point?

> Every other tool tht we use in school is taught as a subject or as part
> of a subject - hopefully by experts.

> Except IT.

What, to 4 year olds?

You just teach them to use a computer to write sentences, draw pictures
and click on the nice multimedia pictures and icons.

On the internet you just want them to fetch multimedia pages which help
them in the subject they are learning - which isn't IT.

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/16/2005 4:09:32 PM
In article <d738905c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5c8e3b76john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <9a4b895c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> >    <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > > However, nowadays he uses KeyBytes
> > 
> > A favourite in schools that have teachers who don't know the subject
> > but get the computer to 'teach' the kids. You truly don't want to know
> > my view of departments who choose that - rather than are forced to use
> > it in adverse circumstances.

> Actually I learned a lot from using the prog.
> :-)
> It's brilliant and fun.

It's not too bad for adults who expect training rather than being open to
be educated.

> (He doesn't use that alone: in fact, I think it's mostly for when other
> people are 'please-taking' in the dept.)

Those are the sort of adverse circumstances that I meant. Also useful for
if some child has been off and needs to catch up whilst the rest of the
class gets on with the syllabus.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 4:10:05 PM
In article <a75b905c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5c8e8172john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> >    <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Care to post a URI? Have you checked it with w3c? There's a
> > > difference between something which uses technology which isn't
> > > backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.
> > 
> > How about sites that use vector graphics? Certainly the intranet at my
> > last school used them intensively but they don't seem to be around on
> > the internet. Why not? Because Microsoft couldn't produce a decent
> > version of their own.

> More likely because, unlike jpg and gif, there isn't an interplatform
> 'standard'.

Yes there was. Yes there is. Draw conformed to the first. Draw and ArtWorks
can export to the second.
And it's badly needed - just try looking at room plans from the web where
you cannot read the names of the rooms or the sizes. Microsoft have stamped
all over everything they have touched and have destroyed everything they
cannot exploit.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 4:15:57 PM
In article <4d5c748650john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I want your daughter, and my granddaughter, to live in a society that
> values knowledge and understanding and empowerment for all.

Which they are hardly going to get if they only have access to RISC OS.

When my son was two years old I let him use my Risc PC to play with some
RO toddler software. He found it difficult to use and got bored.

He did however like playing with 'Jump Ahead Toddlers' on the PC and
picked it up very easily. Peter is nearly eleven years old now and a
whizz kid at computers - but he won't touch the Risc PC with a bargepole.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/16/2005 4:19:40 PM
In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <a75b905c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net> Liz
>           <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> > In message <4d5c8e8172john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> >           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > How about sites that use vector graphics? Certainly the intranet at
> > > my last school used them intensively but they don't seem to be
> > > around on the internet. Why not? Because Microsoft couldn't produce
> > > a decent version of their own.
> > 
> > More likely because, unlike jpg and gif, there isn't an interplatform
> > 'standard'.

> Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
> know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'. I suppose a web
> search would turn up all the info you need - I've never wanted to use
> it, so I'll leave it to you.

You could read Qercus issue 271 where Mark Stevens described the SVG
format. Now go and find SVG files being used on the internet or - more
appropriately - go and find the files that SVG replaced. I didn't say that
I didn't know about them - but Bill Gates' ignorance has ensured their
failure to be used on the internet.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 4:20:50 PM
In message <4d5c93a085john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[KeyBytes and LightBytes]
> Those are the sort of adverse circumstances that I meant. Also useful for
> if some child has been off and needs to catch up whilst the rest of the
> class gets on with the syllabus.
And *is* it available for RISC OS??? 

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 4:25:19 PM
In message <4d5c949c4bjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> > Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
> > know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'. I suppose a web
> > search would turn up all the info you need - I've never wanted to use
> > it, so I'll leave it to you.
> 
> You could read Qercus issue 271 where Mark Stevens described the SVG
> format. 

I could, but I have no intention of paying money to find out about something
I have no use for!
In fact, I'm pretty sure it's in one of my web authoring books.
But I'm buried in 'The Zen of CSS Design' at the moment...

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 4:28:34 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> 
> You could read Qercus issue 271 where Mark Stevens described the SVG
> format. Now go and find SVG files being used on the internet or - more
> appropriately - go and find the files that SVG replaced. I didn't say
> that I didn't know about them - but Bill Gates' ignorance has ensured
> their failure to be used on the internet.

In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
browsers are starting to impliment it.

Mr Gates' ideas may have held sway in the past, and to some degree in
the present, but I believe his influence is on the wane.

-- 
Bungee
0
bungee (219)
4/16/2005 4:38:32 PM
In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
> know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'.

Well MS don't approve, so as far as the great unwashed are concerned it
isn't a standard.

0
4/16/2005 4:46:26 PM
In message <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>
          Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
> acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
> browsers are starting to impliment it.
> 
> Mr Gates' ideas may have held sway in the past, and to some degree in
> the present, but I believe his influence is on the wane.
> 
Although not vector, there's also the technology, I've only seen it on map
sites, where you can repeatedly zoom in for more detail. I've no idea how
it's done, and have no need to know, but it works on Fresco.
That would be relevant to John's example.

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 4:49:15 PM
In article <4d5c8cdb88john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> They need to know how to learn. Are you telling me that's what's taught
> in "IT Across the Curriculum" using Windows boxes? It certainly was what
> was taught by me in IT lessons using RISC OS machines.

There is too much emphasis on established "fact" (which usually *theory*)
To quote a work colleague (who has never seen a RISC OS machine so this
isn't anti-anything except possibly bad/irrelevant teaching) speaking of
degree level teaching: "all they do is regurgitate theoretical bollox, if
they had to do a real job they'd be lost"

NB. He passed quite well, by "regurgitating the bollox", but has more
respect for people that think and come up with fast answers than
"fancy-pants answers"

0
4/16/2005 4:55:02 PM
In message <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <1621885c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
>           Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
> > displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2, but
> > shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a useful
> > educational site then schools using only IE would not have the benefit
> > of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.
> 
> Care to post a URI?

It was www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/umbrella/current.shtml

> Have you checked it with w3c?

Apparently it has been validated with W3C.

> There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
> backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.

True, but it's irrelevant to this argument. The point is that, in its
published form, whether out of date or wrong, the site is unreadable
with the latest version of Microsoft's browser.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/16/2005 5:02:04 PM
In message <b962985c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
>           Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In message <1621885c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
> >         Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
> > > displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2, but
> > > shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a useful
> > > educational site then schools using only IE would not have the benefit
> > > of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.
> > 
> > Care to post a URI?
> 
> It was www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/umbrella/current.shtml
> 
> > Have you checked it with w3c?
> 
> Apparently it has been validated with W3C.
I just tried: it shows up seven errors.

 
> > There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
> > backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.
> 
> True, but it's irrelevant to this argument. The point is that, in its
> published form, whether out of date or wrong, the site is unreadable
> with the latest version of Microsoft's browser.
So would, for example, 'slicing and dicing' a page in Sprite form.
Doesn't make that a sensible thing to do, unless only posting to RISC OS
users. Even then, it wouldn't make sense from a bandwidth pov.

 
I presume the authors of the site you name have a good reason for
deliberately wanting their site to be inaccessible to the >80% of netizens
who still use IE (for better or worse)?
It certainly isn't obvious from the content of the home page why they would
want this.

Otherwise, 'shooting themselves in the foot' sums it up.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 6:22:58 PM
In article <b962985c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
> > > displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2,
> > > but shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a
> > > useful educational site then schools using only IE would not have
> > > the benefit of the information that their RISC OS counterparts
> > > would have.
> > 
> > Care to post a URI?

> It was www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/umbrella/current.shtml

Which displays perfectly well in IE 6.0.2900 - the XP SP2 version - and
gives the same information as Oregano.

It may show no useful information, but that's probably more to do with
the green party than any browser :-)

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/16/2005 6:26:24 PM
In article <b962985c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
>           Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> > In message <1621885c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
> >           Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
> > > displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2,
> > > but shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a
> > > useful educational site then schools using only IE would not have the
> > > benefit of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.
> > 
> > Care to post a URI?

> It was www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/umbrella/current.shtml

I find it displays perfectly on IE6. (as well as on O2 and Webster).  
Someone is obviously trying to muddy the waters.

The site itself says that it was created using RISC OS but that Microsoft
products were used for compatability testing.  It wouldn't have been very
compatible if it didn't work on IE6.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 6:55:30 PM
Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> But I'm buried in 'The Zen of CSS Design' at the moment...

Mind-blowing stuff some of it, isn't it? :-)


-- 
Stewart Brodie
0
4/16/2005 7:42:47 PM
In message <gemini.if21ej000f2e402ks.stewart.brodie@ntlworld.com>
          Stewart Brodie <stewart.brodie@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > But I'm buried in 'The Zen of CSS Design' at the moment...
> 
> Mind-blowing stuff some of it, isn't it? :-)

Beautiful sites, but waaaaaaaaaay above my head.
Not the book, it's very readable: even HU, who has never looked at any of
my digital imaging/web development books before, was engrossed in it this
afternoon! But I think he's going to want a lovelier site soon. :-( 

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 7:52:56 PM
In article <1113668349.6e8bea08952103d030b3b603845bbe0f@teranews>, Ray
Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5c773763john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > You get the point?

> > Every other tool that we use in school is taught as a subject or as
> > part of a subject - hopefully by experts.

> > Except IT.

> What, to 4 year olds?

I realise that some people are slow learners - but do you appreciate just
how much hard work it is to keep correcting you? ;-)

You may have noticed that, in England & Wales, Primary school (for kids up
to 10/11) teachers are specialists in the development of young children.
It's generally only from age 11 that subject specialists step in. Now read
again what I said and you'll find that I'm correct; just that I didn't
mention the special circumstances of Primary schools as they aren't
relevant, they don't change the truth of what I said, and I assumed that
everyone involved in the discussion would understand the obvious without it
being pointed out. And just in case you still want to argue for the sake of
argument - yes I know about Middle Schools as well. I've taught in one.

> You just teach them to use a computer to write sentences, draw pictures
> and click on the nice multimedia pictures and icons.

So are you the one that teaches primary school kids to centre text by
careful use of the space bar?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 8:01:47 PM
In article <6005955c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5c93a085john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
>           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> [KeyBytes and LightBytes]
> > Those are the sort of adverse circumstances that I meant. Also useful
> > for if some child has been off and needs to catch up whilst the rest
> > of the class gets on with the syllabus.
> And *is* it available for RISC OS??? 

No.
For that you have a spare Windows machine in the corner, out of the way.   
    ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 8:02:39 PM
In article <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
   Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > 
> > You could read Qercus issue 271 where Mark Stevens described the SVG
> > format. Now go and find SVG files being used on the internet or - more
> > appropriately - go and find the files that SVG replaced. I didn't say
> > that I didn't know about them - but Bill Gates' ignorance has ensured
> > their failure to be used on the internet.

> In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
> acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
> browsers are starting to impliment it.

> Mr Gates' ideas may have held sway in the past, and to some degree in
> the present, but I believe his influence is on the wane.

That's why it's possible to have a touch of optimism about the future.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 8:03:43 PM
In article <4d5ca8eb37john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6005955c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <4d5c93a085john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell
> >           <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > [KeyBytes and LightBytes]
> > > Those are the sort of adverse circumstances that I meant. Also
> > > useful for if some child has been off and needs to catch up
> > > whilst the rest of the class gets on with the syllabus.
> > And *is* it available for RISC OS??? 

> No.
> For that you have a spare Windows machine in the corner, out of the
> way. ;-)

Ah, my method; though it is now placed more conveniently.  For those
without the dedicated space I have allowed for all this stuff I have
here, a KVM switch is helpful, as a number of our users here have
reported over at least the last several months.

Y'know, I still have a gut feeling (and this is quite apart from the
various arguments on both sides in this thread) that a mixed-platform
environment /would/ even today be beneficial in at least the
junior-level schools, and possibly infant schools as well.

There are (currently) far fewer benefits in the mixed approach at
secondary level, though who knows which way the whole business might
turn in years to come?  It would have been very hard to predictany
situation more than five years or so earlier, whichever point in time
one wishes to pick, so I am stating no absolutes here.

I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/16/2005 8:51:13 PM
Alan Wrigley wrote:
> In message <30788b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
>           Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>>In message <1621885c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
>>          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>Someone has just posted a URL to the RISCOSWeb mailing list that
>>>displays correctly on many browsers including NetSurf and Oregano2, but
>>>shows no useful information whatosever on IE6. If this were a useful
>>>educational site then schools using only IE would not have the benefit
>>>of the information that their RISC OS counterparts would have.
>>
>>Care to post a URI?
> 
> It was www.greensocialist.org.uk/ags/umbrella/current.shtml
> 
>>Have you checked it with w3c?
> 
> Apparently it has been validated with W3C.

"Apparently" but:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=www.greensocialist.org.uk%2Fags%2Fumbrella%2Fcurrent.shtml

but as you say next it makes no difference.

>>There's a difference between something which uses technology which isn't
>>backwards compatible and a site which is just 'wrong'.
> 
> True, but it's irrelevant to this argument. The point is that, in its
> published form, whether out of date or wrong, the site is unreadable
> with the latest version of Microsoft's browser.

I wonder how closely related that point is to the third line of the 
page's source:

<!-- SiteMan 0.26 for RISC OS: SiteMan/NeuLisp &copy; 2004 Vermilion 
Sands Software -->

;-)

And full credit to the Netsurf team. Netsurf coped better with that page 
than my copy of the highly lauded Firefox, which doesn't seem to have 
the plug-in required to display the Flash animation.

Andrew
0
nospam3608 (22)
4/16/2005 8:55:15 PM
In message <42617b2f$0$305$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>
          Andrew Donaldson <nospam@adonaldson.freeuk.com> wrote:


> And full credit to the Netsurf team. Netsurf coped better with that page 
> than my copy of the highly lauded Firefox, which doesn't seem to have 
> the plug-in required to display the Flash animation.
Fresco "seemed" to render it all fine except for the Flash animation, but I
didn't look at it in anything else, so I may have been missing some stuff,
and I didn't try to get beyond the front page. I wonder if the applet,
iframe etc (shown by the w3c validation) were really needed?

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/16/2005 8:59:51 PM
In article <b962985c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:


> True, but it's irrelevant to this argument. The point is that, in its
> published form, whether out of date or wrong, the site is unreadable
> with the latest version of Microsoft's browser.

No, it's NOT.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 9:17:40 PM
In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>,
   John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.

I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit BBC
machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they have the
room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs dedicated to
controlling a range of models. The understanding (and pleasure) that's
obtained by getting such things to work correctly beats anything the latest
Windows machines can offer, pound for pound - and probably every other
comparator.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:05:08 PM
In article <4d5cb421f1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> > become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> > school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> > makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> > comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> > narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.

> I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit BBC
> machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they have
> the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs dedicated
> to controlling a range of models. The understanding (and pleasure) that's
> obtained by getting such things to work correctly beats anything the
> latest Windows machines can offer, pound for pound - and probably every
> other comparator.

How much further back do you want to go?  8-bit BBC machines haven't been
marketed for about 15 years.    You won't find schools looking for that sort
of second-hand machine.  Mind you, if you were to start the production line
again, you might find a market but I think it's highly unlikely.  And, of
course firms that used to market models to be controlled by BBC Micros
either no longer do so becasue of lack of demand or because theyhave gone
out of business.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/16/2005 10:28:28 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> > become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> > school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> > makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> > comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> > narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.
> 
> I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit
> BBC machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they
> have the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs
> dedicated to controlling a range of models. The understanding (and
> pleasure) that's obtained by getting such things to work correctly
> beats anything the latest Windows machines can offer, pound for pound
> - and probably every other comparator.

Regrettably, I must disagree with you (these days). Industrial PLCs are
getting very cheap - typically 150ukp and come with the *Windows*
software to program them, monitor, single-step debug  etc.

Ladder logic is quite an easy programming system for control
applications, and some PLCs have a BASIC-like programming alternative.

The PLCs usually have several internal hardware counters as well as a
number of interrupt capable inputs.

There are usually a range of add-ons like analogue I/O, 7segment drivers
and touch sensitive screens (HMI).

Of course, once programmed and debugged the PLCs are stand-alone and the
computer used to set them up is available for other uses.

-- 
Bungee
0
bungee (219)
4/16/2005 10:45:06 PM
In article <4d5cb644dccharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5cb421f1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>, John M Ward
> >    <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> > > become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> > > school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> > > makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> > > comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> > > narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.

> > I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit
> > BBC machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they
> > have the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs
> > dedicated to controlling a range of models. The understanding (and
> > pleasure) that's obtained by getting such things to work correctly
> > beats anything the latest Windows machines can offer, pound for pound
> > - and probably every other comparator.

> How much further back do you want to go?  8-bit BBC machines haven't
> been marketed for about 15 years.    You won't find schools looking for
> that sort of second-hand machine.  Mind you, if you were to start the
> production line again, you might find a market but I think it's highly
> unlikely.  And, of course firms that used to market models to be
> controlled by BBC Micros either no longer do so becasue of lack of
> demand or because theyhave gone out of business.

So why don't schools want to do the sort of education that they once
thought was important? It's not that the learning involved is out of date
or isn't used in industry.
NB I want to go forward - not back. Is there anything better for such
teaching? If not why not - other than the answer that I think is true - ie
that because Microsoft systems don't deliver it cannot be important?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:57:02 PM
In article <gemini.if29v500ibia80j6t.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>, Bungee
<bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>, John M Ward
> >    <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> > > become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> > > school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> > > makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> > > comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> > > narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.
> > 
> > I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit
> > BBC machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they
> > have the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs
> > dedicated to controlling a range of models. The understanding (and
> > pleasure) that's obtained by getting such things to work correctly
> > beats anything the latest Windows machines can offer, pound for pound
> > - and probably every other comparator.

> Regrettably, I must disagree with you (these days). Industrial PLCs are
> getting very cheap - typically 150ukp and come with the *Windows*
> software to program them, monitor, single-step debug  etc.

OK
So how much are BBC Bs? ;-)

[Snip]

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/16/2005 10:59:31 PM
In message <4d5cb421f1john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it has
> > become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I gained at
> > school in learning on and with different tools, such as different
> > makes and types of lathes to mention just one.  Through such breadth
> > comes more general, intuitive and innovative working than with a
> > narrower experience, as I found then -- and it's just as true today.
> 
> I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit BBC
> machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they have the
> room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs dedicated to
> controlling a range of models. The understanding (and pleasure) that's
> obtained by getting such things to work correctly beats anything the latest
> Windows machines can offer, pound for pound - and probably every other
> comparator.
> 
Then you need to see the Spark Island simulations - really good fun and
learning.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/16/2005 11:49:01 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <gemini.if29v500ibia80j6t.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
> Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <4d5cad031fjohn@acornusers.org>, John M Ward
> > >    <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > > > I do hope that the future will not be so one-dimensional as it
> > > > has become in recent years -- I well recall the benefits I
> > > > gained at school in learning on and with different tools, such
> > > > as different makes and types of lathes to mention just one.
> > > > Through such breadth comes more general, intuitive and
> > > > innovative working than with a narrower experience, as I found
> > > > then -- and it's just as true today.
> > > 
> > > I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an
> > > 8-bit BBC machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only
> > > that they have the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite
> > > of BBC Bs dedicated to controlling a range of models. The
> > > understanding (and pleasure) that's obtained by getting such
> > > things to work correctly beats anything the latest Windows
> > > machines can offer, pound for pound - and probably every other
> > > comparator.
> 
> > Regrettably, I must disagree with you (these days). Industrial PLCs
> > are getting very cheap - typically 150ukp and come with the
> > *Windows* software to program them, monitor, single-step debug  etc.
> 
> OK So how much are BBC Bs? ;-)
> 
> [Snip]

How much were they when they were new? 

-- 
Bungee
0
bungee (219)
4/17/2005 6:16:19 AM
In article <4d5cb91c77john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <gemini.if29v500ibia80j6t.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>, Bungee
> <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > I'm still to be convinced that there is anything better than an 8-bit
> > > BBC machine for teaching control. Any school (assuming only that they
> > > have the room to set them up) would benefit from a suite of BBC Bs
> > > dedicated to controlling a range of models. The understanding (and
> > > pleasure) that's obtained by getting such things to work correctly
> > > beats anything the latest Windows machines can offer, pound for pound
> > > - and probably every other comparator.

> > Regrettably, I must disagree with you (these days). Industrial PLCs are
> > getting very cheap - typically 150ukp and come with the *Windows*
> > software to program them, monitor, single-step debug  etc.

> OK
> So how much are BBC Bs? ;-)

Well, I suppose what you'd really be going for (and people do for control
applications) is an easily programmable, small and low cost item.

At first I thought of the old BBC in a matchbox type thing, but IIRC the
processors are a bit passe these days so we're onto newer processors.

It would need to have a low power use (not because the power wasn't
necessarily available but because that removes the need for cooling fans).

The processor would ideally come with additional i/o facilities ready built
in thus saving board space.

The unit would need to have a simple build but be available in a desktop
version for developmental work (anybody wonder what people like Castle are
doing when they aren't selling desktops?)

Now if people *really* want to teach kids to use the stuff they are likely
to use out in industry then teaching them ARM programming is going to serve
them better (the things are *everywhere*).

Mind you the thing that puzzles me is why they insist on teaching kids so
many "facts" these days. Why don't they teach them to think?
Mind you, having said that my sister says it's harder work getting them to
think than just trotting out facts for them to remember. Fortunately for
her pupils she never was one for the easy life.

0
4/17/2005 7:24:35 AM
In article <gemini.if2ur60069ha802ii.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
   Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > OK So how much are BBC Bs? ;-)

> > [Snip]

> How much were they when they were new? 

399 quid in 1982, or cheaper if your neighbour worked at GEC because they
had a cheapo deal for their employees :-)

0
4/17/2005 7:28:20 AM
In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
> know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'.
> I suppose a web search would turn up all the info you need - I've never
> wanted to use it, so I'll leave it to you.
I do like the idea though.  Try looking at an SVG  in a text editor.  Pure
XML, which is surely a very open and accessible system for all platforms to
use.

Wasn't someone compiling some libraries to handle XML things?

-- 
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago
0
rjseago (182)
4/17/2005 7:58:47 AM
snipped

> > OK So how much are BBC Bs? ;-)
> > 
> > [Snip]
> 
> How much were they when they were new? 
> 

BBC A: 299UKP, BBC B: 399UKP - remarkable computers in 1982.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/17/2005 8:06:30 AM
In message <f183835c4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>
          Steve Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> I'm not sure that this is actually what Peter means, but there are many
> things that non-programmers can do to help developers.  All applications
> need things like user-interface and window designs, graphics,
> documentation, beta testing and so on.  If you're not "graphically
> inclined", producing these kind of things can take (waste) a
> disproportionate amount of time.

[snip]

Forgive me, but ntl its great wisdom, never gave me the replies from Liz
or Alan, so I'll reply to them here after retrieving them from Google.

Reply to Alan:

>  In article <790c6e5c4d.pe...@chocky.org>,
>    Peter Naulls <p...@chocky.org> wrote:
> > In message <4d5c4fadf2alan.cal...@argonet.co.uk>
> >           alan.calder <alan.cal...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[kaffe]

> > > Of which Peter Naulls says he will *consider* completing the work
> > > needed if his Firefox port goes well.
>
> > I don't understand what your point is.  If you're worried about me or
> > someone else being able to carry it out, then it's in your best
> > interests to make sure it's possible.   Repeating the need for it over
> > and over on usenet isn't a useful step in this direction.
>
> Sorry, Peter - I wasn't getting at you - just noting that people with
> purchasing power in schools aren't impressed with the concept of "it might
> happen if someone gets round to it".  Remember the subject of this thread.

I'm not suggesting you are getting at me.  But the thread drift has
already been noted by Steve above, and it doesn't matter if I'm talking
about schools or not - I give you the same reply as I did above.  If you
want to see RISC OS used in your favourite niche (or whatever), then you
need to take practical measures to ensure the requirements are met.

> > Oregano's integration of flash has been explained a number of times.  I
> > think John-Mark's point is clear enough.   I'm not sure what point
> > you're trying to make here is either, however.
>
> Simple. Firefox was under discussion as a possible browser to rescue the
> situation - the capabilities of Oregano3 are irrelevant (also note that
> 'persuade')

By you.  But if we look again at the thread - drift or otherwise, the
real issue is software on RISC OS.  John-Mark Bell (and how dare him)
was giving real solutions to problems that have been posed.  I'm certain
that Oregano 3 is not "irrelevant" to those who have said they will
consider purchasing it - whether for its flash ability or otherwise,

> > > > I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a non-x86
> > > > platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free
> > > > player, either. RISC OS isn't the only platform without a fully
> > > > up-to-date Flash player.
> > > 
> > > In which case they are hardly in a position to pitch for the education
> > > market either!
>
> > Without knowing who "they" are, this is a bit meaningless.  But x86
> > Linux clearly does have such a player, as John-Mark has said.
>
> Except that John-Mark explicitly *excluded* x86 hardware!  My comment was
> clear as day!

He did not - read it again, and you have still to explain "they".  The
situation on x86 Linux is very clear - there is a flash player you can
download.

> > But the problem is that it seems the distinction of
> > Java/Javascript/Flash wasn't fully understood as indicated by your
> > original statement.  Chances are, you do understand it (it's been
> > explained plenty of times indeed), but making unclear statements about
> > the distinction (or lack therefore) between them all doesn't clarify the
> > situation for others who are less sure.
>
> Not the point - yes, I do understand as you acknowledge but we were talking
> about getting RISC OS machines into schools where they don't care about the
> niceties - "No Flash!!! It's rubbish this machine".

It is the *crucial* point - you aren't reading things fully.  My comment
wasn't directed towards people who (rightly or wrongly) rubbish RISC OS
because it lacks certain features then move on.  It's directed towards
those RISC OS users who are both taking an active interest in seeing it
used in certain areas, but then at the same time, try to gloss over or
ignore those very issues which prevent this take up.

> > I think you've missed much of what John-Mark's point is.   In the first
> > instance he's asking for people to not keep on bemoaning ad nauseum the
> > lack of given technologies, 
>
> But I don't 'keep on bemoaning'!  John-Mark simply missed the point of what
> the discussion was about IMHO.

He hasn't missed any points.  The dicussion was about (originally) RISC
OS in schools.  To meet the practical requirements of this means
discussing a long list of problems and providing answers for them.
Problem sovling means breaking things into manageable chunks.  John-Mark
has an excellent grasp of the problems which need to be resolved, and he
and I are pointing that repeating over and over (characterise it how you
will, but it's clearly happening) the lack of technologies is unhelpful
and tiresome.  Furthermore, giving inexact explantions of the problems
just compounds them.

> > expect developers to be always be able to tell you what they are - use
                                                                       ^^^
> > your imagination.  After all, users expect developers to use theirs on a
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > daily basis to solve often inscructable technical problems to bring
> > these new things to RISC OS.
>
> I'd be happy to do as you say but this non-developer has no idea what you
> are alluding to!  I could be a tester I suppose, or stick stamps on
> packages.  Seriously give me a hint and I'd do my best.

I have made a huge effort in the past to do this.  It rarely results in
anything.  But no, your question indicates the problem again - you are
looking for me to direction - direction I have no time or wish to give
(since it is a better use of my time to help other developers). Please
see the above underlined part.

> > Finally, and my own point, the rate at which these new things arrive on
> > RISC OS is proportional to the number of developers.  Given that there
> > are so few, _any_ increase will bring a noticeable increase.  What are
> > you doing to encourage new developers, and indeed, ensure that existing
> > ones stay?

> "Here I am waiting and willing to buy stuff.  I am no programmer so I can't
> do the work but I do have ability to hand over the dosh!  Firefox I have
> already pledged a largish amount of cash to - Oregano3 I will buy if and
> when - Martin Wuerthner has me hauling the old plastic out whenever he
> produces something.  No problem here. "

This is not really an answer to the problem I posed.  Cash is all very
well, but it's only one of a number of important items in both retaining
and encouraging new developers.

> Nothing to fight about as I can see.

Then I do not think you appreciate the difficulties which RISC OS
presently faces, nor would this thread have now over 200 posts to it
(ok, over 100 if we discount John Cartmell's typical barrage of
meaningless content)

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RISC OS C Programming                  | http://www.riscos.info/
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/17/2005 9:35:26 AM
In article <4d5ce75a0esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Well, I suppose what you'd really be going for (and people do for
> control applications) is an easily programmable, small and low
> cost item.

> At first I thought of the old BBC in a matchbox type thing, but
> IIRC the processors are a bit passe these days so we're onto
> newer processors.

> It would need to have a low power use (not because the power
> wasn't necessarily available but because that removes the need
> for cooling fans).

> The processor would ideally come with additional i/o facilities
> ready built in thus saving board space.

 = 7500-variants, especially 7500FE.

> The unit would need to have a simple build but be available in a
> desktop version for developmental work (anybody wonder what
> people like Castle are doing when they aren't selling desktops?)

 = A7000+

 ARM7500 and RISC OS (a ROM'd OS) should have had a
 place in industrial/control applications, but few
 people saw the possibilities.

-- 
Tony Williams.
0
tonyw9 (100)
4/17/2005 9:49:52 AM
In message <4d5cafc98acharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <b962985c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
>    Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> > True, but it's irrelevant to this argument. The point is that, in its
> > published form, whether out of date or wrong, the site is unreadable
> > with the latest version of Microsoft's browser.
> 
> No, it's NOT.

Yes it WAS.

It's been updated since I posted the URL.

Which is all, to repeat myself again, quite irrelevant to the point,
which is that there are Web pages out there that display in some
browsers but do not display in IE6. This one has been fixed but there
will be thousands with similar errors that haven't been. It doesn't
matter whether the pages are 'wrong', all that matters for the point of
this argument is that they display in SOME browsers but not others, and
it is not always IE that guesses the author's intentions correctly.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/17/2005 10:16:22 AM
In article <3d14f75c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
   Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
>

[Snip]

> Which is all, to repeat myself again, quite irrelevant to the point,
> which is that there are Web pages out there that display in some
> browsers but do not display in IE6. This one has been fixed but there
> will be thousands with similar errors that haven't been. It doesn't
> matter whether the pages are 'wrong', all that matters for the point of
> this argument is that they display in SOME browsers but not others, and
> it is not always IE that guesses the author's intentions correctly.

However, since the vast majority of sites are created using M$ products, the
number that are unreadable by IE is going to be very small.  The site we
were discussing was created by RISC OS - but how many sites that schools (or
their pupils/students) want to access will be created that way.  The fact
that that site was modified implies it was an error that stopped it being
used by IE and not deliberate.

To create a site which cannot be read by as many browsers as possible tends
to defeat the object of the site - unless it is intended for a closed user
group.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/17/2005 10:42:28 AM
In article <4d5ce75a0esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, Steven Pampling
<steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <4d5cb91c77john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
>    <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <gemini.if29v500ibia80j6t.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
> > Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > > Regrettably, I must disagree with you (these days). Industrial PLCs
> > > are getting very cheap - typically 150ukp and come with the
> > > *Windows* software to program them, monitor, single-step debug  etc.

[Snip]

> Well, I suppose what you'd really be going for (and people do for
> control applications) is an easily programmable, small and low cost item.

> At first I thought of the old BBC in a matchbox type thing, but IIRC the
> processors are a bit passe these days so we're onto newer processors.

[Snip]

> Now if people *really* want to teach kids to use the stuff they are
> likely to use out in industry then teaching them ARM programming is
> going to serve them better (the things are *everywhere*).

As it happens, I decided to have a peek at the web site for a hobby
electronics magazine call Elektor (www.elektor-electronics.co.uk)

Current issue  construction projects: LPC210x "ARMee Development System"
(2) - i.e. part two of the article series.

Their words: 
"Bored with PICs, AVRs and 8051s everyone else is doing? Last month we
covered 32-bit ARM microcontrollers and the undeniable star from all the
devices discussed in that article was the Philips LPC210x. This month the
real thing is upon us: enter ARMee, an incredibly powerful ARM development
board you can build and program yourself."

Of course people could rabbit on about "innustry stannit" stuff but the
truth is this is stuff Philips are putting out to industry as control
development boards. Like most of the rest of the world of embedded control
it is going ARM and the kids need teaching about this.
Bit of a bugger trying to demonstrate anything like that on a PeeCee
(unless you use VA)

0
4/17/2005 11:12:32 AM
> >  In article <790c6e5c4d.pe...@chocky.org>,
> >    Peter Naulls <p...@chocky.org> wrote:
> > > In message <4d5c4fadf2alan.cal...@argonet.co.uk>
> > >           alan.calder <alan.cal...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > > Oregano's integration of flash has been explained a number of times.
> > >  I think John-Mark's point is clear enough.   I'm not sure what
> > > point you're trying to make here is either, however.
> >
> > Simple. Firefox was under discussion as a possible browser to rescue
> > the situation - the capabilities of Oregano3 are irrelevant (also note
> > that 'persuade')

[Snip]

> I'm certain that Oregano 3 is not "irrelevant" to those who have said
> they will consider purchasing it - whether for its flash ability or
> otherwise,

But I'm one of those considering purchasing it!  I wonder if you read my
posting as a whole?  The point of the original was was that if Firefox was
to be our 'great white hope' (and I would very much like it to be) then
Oregano3 is neither here nor there -schools are not going to chop and
change about during lessons.

> > > > > I should probably point out that if you're using Linux on a
> > > > > non-x86 platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64) you can't use
> > > > > Macromedia's free player, either. RISC OS isn't the only
> > > > > platform without a fully up-to-date Flash player.
> > > > 
> > > > In which case they are hardly in a position to pitch for the
> > > > education market either!
> >
> > > Without knowing who "they" are, this is a bit meaningless.  But x86
> > > Linux clearly does have such a player, as John-Mark has said.
> >
> > Except that John-Mark explicitly *excluded* x86 hardware!  My comment was
> > clear as day!

> He did not - read it again, 

Which part of ' using Linux on a non-x86 platform (this includes ia64 and
x86-64) you can't use Macromedia's free player' does *not* exclude x86
hardware from his comments on Flash?

> and you have still to explain "they". 

'non-x86 platform (this includes ia64 and x86-64)'

> The situation on x86 Linux is very clear - there is a flash player you
> can download.

About this there is no argument so where did it come from?

[Snip]

> My comment wasn't directed towards people who (rightly or wrongly)
> rubbish RISC OSbecause it lacks certain features then move on.  It's
> directed towards those RISC OS users who are both taking an active
> interest in seeing it used in certain areas, but then at the same time,
> try to gloss over or ignore those very issues which prevent this take up.

I feel that this is exactly what I was saying but coming from a different
direction.  What I was on about was that declaring that all the missing
features in RISC OS from the schools' point of view was unimportant was
head in sand stuff of the first degree.  It is great that there are people
who are willing to try and reduce the gap in various ways but we shouldn't
try and pretend that there isn't a problem.

[Snip]

> > > expect developers to be always be able to tell you what they are -
> > > use
>                                                                        ^^^
> > > your imagination.  After all, users expect developers to use theirs
> > > on a
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > daily basis to solve often inscructable technical problems to bring
> > > these new things to RISC OS.
> >
> > I'd be happy to do as you say but this non-developer has no idea what you
> > are alluding to!  I could be a tester I suppose, or stick stamps on
> > packages.  Seriously give me a hint and I'd do my best.

> I have made a huge effort in the past to do this.  It rarely results in
> anything.  But no, your question indicates the problem again - you are
> looking for me to direction - direction I have no time or wish to give
> (since it is a better use of my time to help other developers). Please
> see the above underlined part.

Peter, you are the developer.  If there is something that I can do then I
would be happy to try and help but without some steer I (and I imagine most
others) are in the dark.  I really don't think that NASA redesigned the
shuttle on the basis of people sending in their drawings of what a
spaceship should look like - I would guess they issued specifications and
asked for proposals on that basis.

[Snip]

> > > What are you doing to encourage new developers, and indeed, ensure
> > > that existing ones stay?

> > "Here I am waiting and willing to buy stuff.  I am no programmer so I
> > can't do the work but I do have ability to hand over the dosh! 
> > Firefox I have already pledged a largish amount of cash to - Oregano3
> > I will buy if and when - Martin Wuerthner has me hauling the old
> > plastic out whenever he produces something.  No problem here. "

> This is not really an answer to the problem I posed.  Cash is all very
> well, but it's only one of a number of important items in both retaining
> and encouraging new developers.

More than likely but at present I can only offer cash and encouragement
until something more concrete comes along!  I have lots of software that I
have bought in this spirit, much of which I rarely use except for fun. 

> > Nothing to fight about as I can see.

> Then I do not think you appreciate the difficulties which RISC OS
> presently faces, nor would this thread have now over 200 posts to it

Still see no reason for us to fight! I don't claim to have knowledge of all
the problems but I can claim expert knowledge in my own field - education. 
Just perhaps setting up a RISC OS dominated school network from the early
90's until 2000 may give me just a few insights.  We had about a 100 of the
things at its height.  Finally became Head of Department and then had to
begin the process of putting my beloved Acorns out of the door as there was
no way I could justify keeping them in the face of the demands that other
subject areas were quite justifiably making.

Cheers

Alan
[Snip]


0
alan.calder (319)
4/17/2005 11:22:04 AM
In message <4d5cf9781bcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> To create a site which cannot be read by as many browsers as possible tends
> to defeat the object of the site - unless it is intended for a closed user
> group.

I couldn't agree more. But if that site contains material that could be
useful in an educational context then it inadvertently serves two
purposes: it re-inforces the point that schools should not be dependent
on one solution, and it opens pupils' minds to the diversity of the
technology available.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/17/2005 11:29:36 AM
In article <4d5cf9781bcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> However, since the vast majority of sites are created using M$ products,

No, a the phrase you want is quite a few sites are created with MS products
and many of the ones that are not are readable in IE. Mind you most of
those are readable in RISC OS browsers too.

> the number that are unreadable by IE is going to be very small.

More than you'd think. The other half frequents genealogy sites in a quest
to trace her family tree back to the year dot and found a number of sites
that would crash IE6 and others that did the same to IE5.5 but they all
work in Firefox.

Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't reliably work in
Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS update section of the MS site
Firefox is the default browser on that machine.

> To create a site which cannot be read by as many browsers as possible
> tends to defeat the object of the site - unless it is intended for a
> closed user group.

Agreed, but then many of the MS users take the "upgrade your browser"
attitude when in fact they should be correcting their errors.

In terms of IT teaching there is too much reliance on use of GUI based
tools that do the real work and not enough teaching of the techniques
(which can be done on any machine). While actually producing a page that
works is part of the battle the fact remains that the pages produced
frequently have neither good HTML use nor good visual aspect.

Bluntly put: Crap HTML use to produce a crap design.

Yet on the other hand you find rather neat clearly presented pages produced
in what is probably GUI first draft, hand tailored final HTML.
Someone used their brains, maybe they had a good teacher.

0
4/17/2005 11:31:40 AM
In message <3d14f75c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]
> Which is all, to repeat myself again, quite irrelevant to the point,
> which is that there are Web pages out there that display in some
> browsers but do not display in IE6. This one has been fixed but there
> will be thousands with similar errors that haven't been. It doesn't
> matter whether the pages are 'wrong', all that matters for the point of
> this argument is that they display in SOME browsers but not others, and
> it is not always IE that guesses the author's intentions correctly.

This is a discussion hardly worth having.
I had a mistake on my site.
It rendered in Fresco (but not the other 3 RO browsers).
I don't think even our most ardent MS haters would thereby say, "Oh Great,
RISC OS defeats the Evil Empire."

I can't imagine anyone deliberately authoring a general purpose site which
didn't render in IE.
S/he would probably fall foul of DDL if the site offered 'goods' or 'services'.

For a reason I haven't discovered yet, I have to use IE on the s***** network.
(Actually, the AV tech thought I might be allowed to use Firefox, but the IT
tech wasn't so sure. Basically, it seems to be a ban on downloading programs
of any sort, rather than a positive injunction to use IE)

Worse, my sister is on a University network at work, and she *has* to use IE4.
Insanity, and I didn't believe her. I practically pushed her off her chair
to show her how to at least upgrade to IE6, and immediately a screen came up
telling me I was not allowed to upgrade, and if I tried to hack in to do it,
(hahahahahaha) it was a sackable offence.

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 11:50:41 AM
In message <bfc8fd5c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>
          Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <4d5cf9781bcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
>           charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > To create a site which cannot be read by as many browsers as possible tends
> > to defeat the object of the site - unless it is intended for a closed user
> > group.
> 
> I couldn't agree more. But if that site contains material that could be
> useful in an educational context then it inadvertently serves two
> purposes: it re-inforces the point that schools should not be dependent
> on one solution, and it opens pupils' minds to the diversity of the
> technology available.

We can't have it both ways.
If it is authored according to web standards, it will render on IE6.
(Actually, there are some CSS things which cause IE6 problems, but there are
'hacks' to deal with these).
I can't imagine there can be many UK authors of general use sites,
particularly for education, who don't test their sites in IE6 at least.

I don't think it would be 'good practice' to deliberately write sites which
didn't work in some browsers. The point is that if IE doesn't render
something which is correct by w3c standards, IE is wrong - that's the *only*
valid point which can be made, and we'd have to be careful of glass houses
and throwing stones if we went down that route.

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 11:56:50 AM
In article <4d5cfd183calan.calder@argonet.co.uk>, alan.calder
<alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

>  In article <790c6e5c4d.pe...@chocky.org>, Peter Naulls
>    <p...@chocky.org> wrote:

> > I have made a huge effort in the past to do this.  It rarely results
> > in anything.  But no, your question indicates the problem again - you
> > are looking for me to direction - direction I have no time or wish to
> > give (since it is a better use of my time to help other developers).
> > Please see the above underlined part.

> Peter, you are the developer.  If there is something that I can do then
> I would be happy to try and help but without some steer I (and I imagine
> most others) are in the dark.  I really don't think that NASA redesigned
> the shuttle on the basis of people sending in their drawings of what a
> spaceship should look like - I would guess they issued specifications
> and asked for proposals on that basis.

[Snip]

> > This is not really an answer to the problem I posed.  Cash is all very
> > well, but it's only one of a number of important items in both
> > retaining and encouraging new developers.

> More than likely but at present I can only offer cash and encouragement
> until something more concrete comes along!  I have lots of software that
> I have bought in this spirit, much of which I rarely use except for fun. 

[Snip]

I can understand where Alan is coming from on this.  I too have bought
software and hardware in the past sometimes purely to support the
platform.  I am happy (if my time is available and my configuration
suitable) to do beta testing and suggest ideas and improvements.  I have
stayed out of the personality arguments even when I had something to say,
because I thought that they would do more harm than good.  I know that we
have some very talented and dedicated developers still supporting our
platform, and for that I am thankful.  I don't want to get involved in a
long drawn out argument over the rights and wrongs of the points of view
expressed in the newsgroups.

There is still a massive gap between users and developers about the best
way forward.  I can understand the frustration felt by developers who seem
to have to explain everything at least ten times and then still have to
correct misunderstandings.  I can also understand the frustration felt by
users who think that some developers are too interested in the pedantics
of an issue to realise the the perception from a users point of view.

In terms of what we can do as users to support the platform, we can offer
our time to provide testing, cash to support development or cash to buy
products that have been developed (and not to always expect everything to
be provided for free), ideas for development projects (and not always
asking for the same things continually).  Perhaps we need the users
equivalent of sourceforge - like an 'ideasforge' to co-ordinate a central
wishlist and ask developers to contribute to an FAQ on what can and can't
be done and why.  

I personally think we need a single RISC OS version to run on all
'suitable' machines so that the same underlying stable featureset is
available across the board to avoid the requirement for developers to
work-around or redevelop changes between different versions, and to get
the best out of the new features that have been added to the OS.  As users
we should be doing our best to keep up with the current platform -
upgrading to the latest hardware and/or OS versions would give a boost to
the platform and help the developers by having a more uniform target
audience for their products.  I understand that for some this will not be
a practical option due to money and other circumstances, but the more
people who invest in the platform the better the future will be.

We also have to end the continuous sniping at personalities (and
companies) - but it also requires some more understanding on their part to
avoid coming across in a manner that makes others take issue in the first
place.  I would welcome a forum where we could sensibly discuss the future
track for RISC OS development - what can be done, what limitations are
there, what are the priorities, who can do what to help, how can users get
involved and what are the developers wanting from the users?

Cheers (and all IMHO),
Grahame.

-- 
Grahame Parish
maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet
0
spamtrap13 (277)
4/17/2005 12:30:46 PM
In message <4d5cfd183calan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
          alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> But I'm one of those considering purchasing it!  I wonder if you read my
> posting as a whole?  The point of the original was was that if Firefox was
> to be our 'great white hope' (and I would very much like it to be) then
> Oregano3 is neither here nor there -schools are not going to chop and
> change about during lessons.

Yes, I read your points very precisely.  The biggest problem faced by
developers, is that users aren't listening to us, or listening to us
exactly - as you've sadly done for nearly everything I've explained. In
many cases, they've already decided what the answer is, or would prefer
to simply ignore the problems (hence my initial head in the sand
observation). But Firefox doesn't help here either, because as you
earlier stated, it doesn't contain flash.  Oregano 3 at present is the
closest RISC OS is likely to have for some time to a complete flash
implementation - like it or not.   If that's impractical for schools,
then are two possibilities - don't use RISC OS, or implement one of
John-Mark's other solutions.

> > The situation on x86 Linux is very clear - there is a flash player you
> > can download.
> 
> About this there is no argument so where did it come from?

Your sadly inexact statements about flash which didn't seem to have any
relevance to the issue at hand.   John-Mark provided some precise
answers about how to get Flash for RISC OS which you insisted upon
questioning.  

> > My comment wasn't directed towards people who (rightly or wrongly)
> > rubbish RISC OSbecause it lacks certain features then move on.  It's
> > directed towards those RISC OS users who are both taking an active
> > interest in seeing it used in certain areas, but then at the same time,
> > try to gloss over or ignore those very issues which prevent this take up.
> 
> I feel that this is exactly what I was saying but coming from a different
> direction.  What I was on about was that declaring that all the missing
> features in RISC OS from the schools' point of view was unimportant was
> head in sand stuff of the first degree.  It is great that there are people
> who are willing to try and reduce the gap in various ways but we shouldn't
> try and pretend that there isn't a problem.

No, it _wasn't_ what you said at all. It's an entirely different issue,
and it's exceedingly frustating that you insist on arguing me at length
over this and all the other points.  

[huge snip]

> Still see no reason for us to fight! I don't claim to have knowledge of all
> the problems but I can claim expert knowledge in my own field

But Alan, you are saying things that I keep pointing out are
innaccurate. You keep on, as we pointed out in the very first instance,
about the very lack of technologies ad nauseum.   How MANY times do I
have to point how much of a huge waste of time this is?   How many times
do we have to repeat ourselves, and ask you not to bemoan (I use the
word again) the lack of the given technologies and find some practical
answers to the problem?    

Too many.  And I promise to be very disappointed if you continue to
argue what I've said further, or reply without suggesting some workable
solutions to the problems at hand.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix Programs on RISC OS               | http://www.riscos.info/unix/
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/17/2005 12:55:03 PM
In article <4d5d02de8aspamtrap@millers-way.net>,
   Grahame Parish <spamtrap@millers-way.net> wrote:

[Snip]

> We also have to end the continuous sniping at personalities (and
> companies) - but it also requires some more understanding on their part to
> avoid coming across in a manner that makes others take issue in the first
> place.  I would welcome a forum where we could sensibly discuss the future
> track for RISC OS development - what can be done, what limitations are
> there, what are the priorities, who can do what to help, how can users get
> involved and what are the developers wanting from the users?

Would that I had put it so well myself!

Cheers

Alan


0
alan.calder (319)
4/17/2005 1:01:53 PM
In article <f046005d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> We can't have it both ways.
> If it is authored according to web standards, it will render on IE6.
> (Actually, there are some CSS things which cause IE6 problems,

Which I think sums up the situation. IE isn't complying with standards
otherwise it would work.
The fact that RISC OS browsers also have problems with the more recent
content standards is another aspect of the same thing. Mind you the budgets
for development of each side of the equation are vastly different and MS
really have no excuse.


> but there are 'hacks' to deal with these).

0
4/17/2005 1:08:18 PM
In article <f1b6ff5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't imagine anyone deliberately authoring a general purpose site
> which didn't render in IE. S/he would probably fall foul of DDL if the
> site offered 'goods' or 'services'.

Evidence of IE only, and Flash only limited sites here in the UK suggests
that the issue is a non-issue. Or do complaints only count when it isn't an
IE non-compliance?

0
4/17/2005 1:10:23 PM
In message <4d5d0702a9steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>
          Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> In article <f1b6ff5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > I can't imagine anyone deliberately authoring a general purpose site
> > which didn't render in IE. S/he would probably fall foul of DDL if the
> > site offered 'goods' or 'services'.
> 
> Evidence of IE only, and Flash only limited sites here in the UK suggests
> that the issue is a non-issue. Or do complaints only count when it isn't an
> IE non-compliance?

A lot of the accessibility software for websites sits on top of IE, so yes.
(In fact, it seems to be another area where 'we' were once ahead but have
fallen behind, but my info for this is 2nd hand, so ICBW.)

The 'standards rabids' have been screaming DDL on the rest of us muppets who
aren't using XHTML Strict + CSS, but the DDL doesn't appear to have been
falling very hard on the big, corporate sites who don't use even the 'loose'
standards we do, so I would hope that we can breathe easy for a while yet.
:-)

It's been said on one web standards website that rather than scream DDL at
sinners, they'd be better to shout SEO, because a lot of the web sins which
cause accessibility issues will also shut out or partially shut out search
engines, which if people knew about it they'd probably be much more
concerned about. 

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 1:26:24 PM
In article <4d5cfdf913steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't reliably work in
> Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS update section of the MS site
> Firefox is the default browser on that machine.

You can include www.woolwich.co.uk as a site that won't work in Firefox. 
Despite prodding they seem to have no plans to change.

Cheers

Alan

[Snip]


0
alan.calder (319)
4/17/2005 1:26:56 PM
In message <f046005d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> The point is that if IE doesn't render
> something which is correct by w3c standards, IE is wrong - that's
> the *only* valid point which can be made

Unfortunately it isn't the only valid point that can be made. We all
know that there are many, many badly-written sites on the Web and if you
are using a browser to gather information you can't just wantonly ignore
anything that doesn't validate to W3C. If you are using it to teach IT
then there's a case to be made for ignoring it but even in that case
there is a lesson to be drawn from the behaviour of different browsers
to the same page. IE is not wrong if it fails to display a bad page but
the point I am trying to make, again, <sigh>, is that if ANY browser
fails to display ANY potentially useful page, good or bad, then that
gives the lie to the assertion that there is one browser that is
good for everything. It's not a case of whether the rules have been
followed, it's not a case of "my browser/OS is better than your
browser/OS", it's pure pragmatism. If you're researching a topic and
someone writes you a letter with lots of useful information but stuffed
full of grammatical errors, do you throw it in the bin and say "I'm not
reading that because it's not grammatically correct"? Of course you
don't.

We also know that Microsoft are in large part to blame for this mess -
firstly for producing tools that generate crap HTML, and secondly for
bending over backwards to supply a browser that supports crap HTML.
There can't be many other computer languages where the software which
interprets or compiles the code has such a cavalier attitude to correct
syntax.

Alan

-- 
RISC OS - you know it makes cents
0
spamhater1 (1060)
4/17/2005 1:48:52 PM
In message <4d5d0886aaalan.calder@argonet.co.uk>
          alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5cfdf913steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> [Snip]
> 
> > Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't reliably work in
> > Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS update section of the MS site
> > Firefox is the default browser on that machine.
> 
> You can include www.woolwich.co.uk as a site that won't work in Firefox. 
> Despite prodding they seem to have no plans to change.

On the other side:
The Web Standards have an 'acid test' page, against which browsers can be
tested for standards compliance. 
Safari, Opera and Firefox all fail, apparently.
(I presume IE failing is taken as a 'given').
http://webstandards.org/act/acid2

Also, interestingly, but OT, there's a blog from the bloke at Safari who's
working to fix the Safari bugs at http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/hyatt

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 2:29:13 PM
In article <4d5ce75a0esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Mind you the thing that puzzles me is why they insist on teaching kids so
> many "facts" these days. Why don't they teach them to think?

1. It's harder.

2. After they've been taught that facts are all by previous teachers it's
much harder.

3. People don't like doing something different. The hardest thing I've ever
taught is in Maths when I didn't want 'sums' doing but wanted a narrative
commentary. Maths = sums = numbers and trying to get them to produce an
explanation of why something worked and something else didn't was so uphill
that it was more than vertical!

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 2:52:41 PM
In article <4d5d106064john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5ce75a0esteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > Mind you the thing that puzzles me is why they insist on teaching
> > kids so many "facts" these days. Why don't they teach them to
> > think?

Ah!  that would be dangerous.  Imagine all those "thinking people"
coming into positions within society where they could in a few years
from now upset all the cosy positions of power and control...

> 1. It's harder.

"That too."  (Vir Cotto, Babylon5 "Parliament of Dreams")

> 2. After they've been taught that facts are all by previous
> teachers it's much harder.

> 3. People don't like doing something different. The hardest thing
> I've ever taught is in Maths when I didn't want 'sums' doing but
> wanted a narrative commentary. Maths = sums = numbers and trying to
> get them to produce an explanation of why something worked and
> something else didn't was so uphill that it was more than vertical!

Hmm.  Strange for something that is, after all, a "lateral thinking"
approach...  ;-)

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/17/2005 3:08:50 PM
alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5cfdf913steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> [Snip]
> 
> > Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't reliably work in
> > Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS update section of the MS site
> > Firefox is the default browser on that machine.
> 
> You can include www.woolwich.co.uk as a site that won't work in
> Firefox. Despite prodding they seem to have no plans to change.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Alan

Well all the main pages seem to work for me - although i don't have an
account with them so coudn't check the transaction pages.

FF 1.02

-- 
Bungee
0
bungee (219)
4/17/2005 3:33:18 PM
In message <4d5cf9781bcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <3d14f75c4d.spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk>,
>    Alan Wrigley <spamhater@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> 
> [Snip]
> 
> > Which is all, to repeat myself again, quite irrelevant to the point,
> > which is that there are Web pages out there that display in some
> > browsers but do not display in IE6. This one has been fixed but there
> > will be thousands with similar errors that haven't been. It doesn't
> > matter whether the pages are 'wrong', all that matters for the point of
> > this argument is that they display in SOME browsers but not others, and
> > it is not always IE that guesses the author's intentions correctly.
> 
> However, since the vast majority of sites are created using M$ products, the
> number that are unreadable by IE is going to be very small.  The site we
> were discussing was created by RISC OS - but how many sites that schools (or
> their pupils/students) want to access will be created that way.  The fact
> that that site was modified implies it was an error that stopped it being
> used by IE and not deliberate.
> 
> To create a site which cannot be read by as many browsers as possible tends
> to defeat the object of the site - unless it is intended for a closed user
> group.
> 

My school website is produced entirely using Textease on RISC OS. It is
a trivial task to make changes and upload using FTPc.
Sadly, we have now switched to Education Leeds Leeds Learning Net - I
can't get at the web space from home (where I have a little more time
to dedicate to ICT) - so the changes are made, taken into school on a
memory stick and then uploaded using one of the PCs. Changes are no
longer daily, but once every few weeks.

The website is fine in Fresco, Netsurf, IE5 ... but not in Oregano 2.
99% of users will be IE users, so it is OK. We have a site licence for
O2 at school, and will have one for O3 when it appears if it does the
job. Hope they sort out the formatting.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/17/2005 3:43:23 PM
In message <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>
          Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
> acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
> browsers are starting to impliment it.

According to this article about SVG, even IE4+ can support SVG via a plug-in.
http://molly.com/articles/webdesign/2001-04-svg.php
Lots of other SVG info there.

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 4:33:33 PM
In article <809c195d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>
>           Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> > In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
> > acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
> > browsers are starting to impliment it.

> According to this article about SVG, even IE4+ can support SVG via a
> plug-in. http://molly.com/articles/webdesign/2001-04-svg.php Lots of
> other SVG info there.

> Slainte

> Liz

Open Office Draw can also export SVG though like a lot of other apps it
can't import/load SVG.

Cheers
Dave S

-- 

0
dfs (2099)
4/17/2005 5:11:47 PM
In article <gemini.if3kjh003r8ts0n7x.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
   Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4d5cfdf913steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
> >    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > 
> > [Snip]
> > 
> > > Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't reliably work in
> > > Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS update section of the MS site
> > > Firefox is the default browser on that machine.
> > 
> > You can include www.woolwich.co.uk as a site that won't work in
> > Firefox. Despite prodding they seem to have no plans to change.

> Well all the main pages seem to work for me - although i don't have an
> account with them so coudn't check the transaction pages.

That's so - but not much point going there if you can use the on-line
services, which are the pages that don't work!

Cheers

Alan


0
alan.calder (319)
4/17/2005 5:28:07 PM
In article <f046005d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
   Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> If it is authored according to web standards, it will render on IE6.

Actually, that's not true. It's perfectly easy to create a site which
validates perfectly, which doesn't work on IE6. One word - PNG.

I've just created a large website for a nationally renowned client, and was
quite dismayed when they reported that it didn't work correctly, especially
as I'd tested it on every RISC OS browser and every Mac browser (I don't
have a PC anymore).

It turned out that IE6 can't display transparent PNG graphics, which I
thought was pretty basic in these days of flash and Java etc.

Of course, the validation of the HTML is no relevance if the browser can't
even display the images correctly - so another area where RISC OS wins over
Microsoft.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

If the population of China walked past you in single file, the line would never end because of the rate of reproduction. 
0
4/17/2005 5:33:45 PM
In message <4d5d1f1f8eusenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>
          pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:


> 
> It turned out that IE6 can't display transparent PNG graphics, which I
> thought was pretty basic in these days of flash and Java etc.
Bizarrely, I somehow knew this!
Does the (different) Mac version of IE render them?

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 5:47:02 PM
In message <b256205d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <4d5d1f1f8eusenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>
>           pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > It turned out that IE6 can't display transparent PNG graphics, which I
> > thought was pretty basic in these days of flash and Java etc.
> Bizarrely, I somehow knew this!
(because it's well documented in web dev books/sites whicn mentione png at all)
To be honest, despite your personal loathing of everything MS, I think
you're doing your clients a *grave* dis-service if you're not testing
general-use websites on IE on Windows.

> Does the (different) Mac version of IE render them?
Ah, I see that it does.
You might like to add the RO browsers which support them fully to the
official PNG site at: http://www.libpng.org/pub/pngapbr.html

Whoops -
I see that "the nearly defunct Browse", Webster XL and Fresco *are* already
mentioned. I don't see Netsurf or Oregano there - is this an oversight, or
don't they support png fully?

(Or I might have missed them on the page)

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 6:00:09 PM
In article <1113571199.7edc634d9d2f608c567ce3accf7c43aa@teranews>, Ray Dawson
<URL:mailto:Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]


> Added to that, the Lgfl has been providing broadband access for schools
> in our area. To get on that scheme you have to have PCs. If you don't
> then your internet access will be cut off. There are very strict rules
> about what hardware and software can be used and Acorn certainly doesn't
> comply. I had a meeting with the LEA IT manager this morning to discuss
> our getting on the fibre optic broadband rollout and he was quite
> specific.
> 
What a stupid rule. How can he tell if you hang Acorns onto the system,
and why does it matter? The "strict rules" he's telling you about are
local to whatever regional broadband consortium is providing the
service, I assume.

Down in the South West, we've got SWGFL as the provider. They're using
RM IfL, delivered over BT MetroVPN, as the ISP. I've got quite a few
schools still using RISC OS systems on networks that connect to the
Internet via this system. There are no specified constraints on the
client side, or on the servers which may be connected to SWGfL.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 6:17:46 PM
In article <4d5c13deeajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <82c40e5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > So by losing out on providing software for subject areas (I'm *not*
> > talking IT here), Acorn/RiscOS lost out on being the predominant
> > platform in school
> 
> Acorn/RISC OS lost out even when it had all the educational software
> available. The choice wasn't made on merit, cost, or educational grounds.
> Paul V. is close to the real reason.
>
You missed the IMHO, as usual. Acorn lost because Acorn gave up and
didn't invest, because Acorn lost direction (I remember the launch of
the Acorn PC, if nobody else does), because it was run by people with
no interest in the technology and for a multitude of other reasons. Oh,
yes, and because the customers didn't want to buy its product any more.
What the reasons were for that are many and varied, but they are not
dark forces. Stop this stupid conspiracy rubbish, please. If you or
Paul have anything approaching proof of corruption, would you please
publish it rather than making silly wee hints.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 6:24:08 PM
In article <4d5c6fcebejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <e3ec6b5c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > And as already has been said, there's no way a school is going to put up
> > with a situation where to see some sites you have to use browser A and
> > for others you have to use browser B. I hate that well enough here for
> > myself. Kids would just laugh at the 'c*** computer', and would very
> > soon refuse to use it.
> 
> If you don't let them use a range of browsers to see the difference in the
> way sites look then you're failing to educate them. If they know of the
> differences they may well pick amd choose of their own volition and
> properly appreciate that one browser may be better (for them) for some
> sites and not others.

Don't be silly. Investing time and training in multiple browsers to
demonstrate what? You're still banging on about IT being something that
should be taught, in some regimented way. It shouldn't.
> 
> If they laugh at you you're doing it wrong.
> 

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 6:27:59 PM
In article <4d5c748650john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Absolutely essential because that's the only sure way to ensure that IT
> > > (sorry - lost that extra C again) is taught only by those who don't
> > > understand what they are doing.
> 
> > What do you mean? Computers are tools. Okay, so it might be necessary
> > to show people how to use them, but there is no magic or sacred rite
> > involved.
> 
> Of course there is no magic - except the magic that is present in learning
> and understanding anything. You want to take the magic and the
> understanding out of the equation and train the kids to press buttons; I'm
> crying "thief". You're stealing their chance of understanding and
> empowerment. You want to train mill fodder; I want to educate engineers,
> teachers, inventors, and citizens.

Don't put words into my mouth or thoughts into my head. Your arrogance
is unbelievable. You seem to  want to live in some Little England of
your own imagining, where Mr Babbage's great engine grinds ever on, and
the colonies were never lost.

There is a place for everything. Using computers pervades society.
Computers are used in schools for creative purposes. They are tools.
Some few people might be inspired by the way in which they work, most
want to use them. I spend my working life supplying IT systems into
schools. People buy stuff from us because we don't try and wrap it all
up in some safe little box, like RM CC3 or CLassLink (to name the major
competition), and because we work with them as individual schools to
achieve what they want to achieve. I am proud of this. It has taken a
lot of toil and tears. If it weren't for the fact of their demise, we'd
be doing it on Acorn systems. If it weren't for their lack of support
and the fact that they shafted us once we'd be doing it on Apple
systems. So we supply Windows on Fujitsu Siemens hardware. And we make
it work, and we make sure any older systems that can be shoehorned into
a new installation are upgraded so they get the best value out of them.
And that includes Acorns, even now.


> > Got to stop now, to take small daughter to fitba.
> 
> I want your daughter, and my granddaughter, to live in a society that
> values knowledge and understanding and empowerment for all.
>

So do I. Both my kids are creative, intelligent and learn stuff. If
they want to learn about how anything works, I'll tell them. In school,
they're taught how stuff works. They don't get some geek droning on to
them for great chunks of time about bits and bytes and OS and the
history of PARC, though. And I don't think they suffer by it.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 6:42:46 PM
In message <638a215d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> You might like to add the RO browsers which support them fully to the
> official PNG site at: http://www.libpng.org/pub/pngapbr.html

Or even http://libpng.org/pub/png/pngapbr.html

> Whoops -
> I see that "the nearly defunct Browse", Webster XL and Fresco *are* already
> mentioned. I don't see Netsurf or Oregano there - is this an oversight, or
> don't they support png fully?
> 
> (Or I might have missed them on the page)

They're there, along with Arcweb and Webite for good measure.


John.
0
jmb202 (301)
4/17/2005 6:50:06 PM
In article <4d5c757e81john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant1608130b09GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > Ten years ago the margins might have been a bit fatter, but it was
> > still illegal. As a member of the Acorn reseller community ten years
> > ago, and knowing the Acorn area Sales Manager very well, I would
> > certainly have heard of anything of that sort damaging sales chances.
> > And I didn't.
> 
> In rejecting pv's claim of corrupt practice you actually mention two that
> were caught.

As usual, you refer to a part of a post of mine you have seen fit not
to repeat. Is this designed to confuse, or are you just incapable of
following a coherent argument. My examples were neither of fraud or
corruption of the type Paul claimed and you hinted at. I'm happy to
name the companies in question. 

> There were others. The difference between knowing of such
> instances and being able to provide the documentary evidence for a court
> means that many will not surface.

Why not? Because it's hearsay, that's why. Name the school. If you're
so sure of your facts, publish them and be damned, as the man said.
Stop making generalised scurrilous rumours. 

> Acorn kept a very tight control (too
> tight*) that ensured that cowboys promoted the totally uncontrolled Windows
> market - where there was plenty of room for a vast range of support and
> repair scams. They thrived when money started to be pumped into IT.

Gosh, I agree with you! Not that Acorn kept tight control (they didn't
at all), but that the cowboys got in when IT funding started to happen
at a sensible level. All those little companies who thought that they
could make a killing out of building PCs and selling them to schools.
Unfortunately, they hadn't actually costed the support they would need
to provide, nor had they realised that it's harder to look after a lot
of machines than it is the odd one.  
> 
> *not that I'm advocating fraud but the Xemplar debacle led to Acorn paying
> dealers for work they had not done (because a school was in their area) and
> not pay dealers that had sold the equipment. There were multiple reasons
> for Acorn's failure in schools at the end of its corporate life.
>

Acorn moved to a regional Agency model before Xemplar happened, if
that's what you mean. Agents were chosen as the existing dealers best
able to support Acorn in a specific region of the country. They thereby
had exclusive access to schools in that territory, and were paid on
sales in that area. This was a major benefit to both the dealers and to
Acorn. Prior to that the insane situation existed where the LEA tender
could be won by a dealer from hundreds of miles away, solely because
they undercut the local supplier on price. Service was not an option.
Like everything with Acorn, it was too little and too late.

Your information possibly comes from a dealer who didn't get Agency
status and was disaffected by this.

Cheers

Mike 

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 6:55:25 PM
Liz wrote:

[of www.greensocialist.org.uk]

> Fresco "seemed" to render it all fine except for the Flash animation, but I
> didn't look at it in anything else, so I may have been missing some stuff,
> and I didn't try to get beyond the front page. I wonder if the applet,
> iframe etc (shown by the w3c validation) were really needed?

Probably not, along with the table-based layout ;-)

Andrew
0
nospam3608 (22)
4/17/2005 7:01:34 PM
In article <cb9d755c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<URL:mailto:invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
>           Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> > Teaching kids how to log on to a computer should not take lots of time.
> Gosh!
> Come and teach our 'bottom sections', then.
> Pleeeeeeeeeeease!
> 
It's nothing to do with teaching, it's how the network is set up. Many
years ago, I ran a training day at the Royal Masonic School for Girls
(out of interest, it's where Indiana Jones is found lecturing in
Raiders). One of the things to come out of that was that kids should log
on using their forename and the first letter of their surname. We
follow that principle to this day. Also, every kid has an individual
login. I appreciate that in Scotland there might be a lot of surnames
beginning in "M", but the extension to using "Mc" or "Mac" plus the
next letter would probably work.

If they're P1/YearR, then they mostly can't read or write anyway, but
it's a target they can aim at. In the meanwhile, the TA/CA/LSA/whatever
s/he's called this moment can log them on to a generic class group.
After all, they aren't doing much that needs saving anyway.

I don't know how it's structured for you at the minute; that's just the
way we do it.

Cheers

Mike
-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 7:02:31 PM
In article <4d5c84d0a5steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, Steven Pampling
<URL:mailto:steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > And the "teaching of ICT" (yes, I
> > agree, the C is irrelevant; what's the point of information if you don't
> > communicate it)
> 
> The C is apparently the result of a buzzword/TLA adoption of a French
> mistranslation that crept back into the English speaking world.
> 
> Any fule kno that ICT = Inverness Caledonian Thistle [1] (who may or may
> not use computer kit in a meaningful way.)

Responsible for the greatest footballing headline of all time, when
they beat the mighty Celtic a fews years ago:

Super Cally go Ballistic, Celtic are Atrocious

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 7:06:41 PM
In article <b256205d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<URL:mailto:invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5d1f1f8eusenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk>
>           pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > It turned out that IE6 can't display transparent PNG graphics, which I
> > thought was pretty basic in these days of flash and Java etc.
> Bizarrely, I somehow knew this!

Me Too!!!

Spent ages moving all the TME website graphics from GIF and JPEG to
PNG (using a really nice tool on the PC called Axialis Iconmaker).
Discovered that stupid bloody IE displays the transparent as pale blue.
Pleased to say that the site has a white background, so I used !Paint
to fill in the blanks and add a one pixel grey border. Annoying, though.

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/17/2005 7:16:13 PM
In message <4d5cea7bb8rjseago@zetnet.co.uk>
          Robert Seago <rjseago@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
>    Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I don't
> > know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'.
> > I suppose a web search would turn up all the info you need - I've never
> > wanted to use it, so I'll leave it to you.
> I do like the idea though.  Try looking at an SVG  in a text editor.  Pure
> XML, which is surely a very open and accessible system for all platforms to
> use.
> 
> Wasn't someone compiling some libraries to handle XML things?

http://www.riscos.info/porting/libraries.html

While we're at it:

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/faq.html

Just to avoid more guessing :-|

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please Reply Properly - http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html
0
peter4500 (2516)
4/17/2005 7:17:30 PM
Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <4d5cea7bb8rjseago@zetnet.co.uk>
>           Robert Seago <rjseago@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <e34a915c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>,
> >    Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > Sorry, there's SVG, but I don't know anything much about it, and I
> > > don't know how well supported it is, or whether w3c 'approve'. I
> > > suppose a web search would turn up all the info you need - I've
> > > never wanted to use it, so I'll leave it to you.
> > I do like the idea though.  Try looking at an SVG  in a text editor.
> > Pure XML, which is surely a very open and accessible system for all
> > platforms to use.
> > 
> > Wasn't someone compiling some libraries to handle XML things?
> 
> http://www.riscos.info/porting/libraries.html
> 
> While we're at it:
> 
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/svg/faq.html
> 
> Just to avoid more guessing :-|

Anyone who has either Linux or Windows might like to think about looking
at Inkscape, an OS SVG editor. http://www.inkscape.org/

-- 
Bungee
0
bungee (219)
4/17/2005 7:29:28 PM
In article <gemini.if3vh4008c2gw063t.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>,
   Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> Anyone who has either Linux or Windows might like to think about looking
> at Inkscape, an OS SVG editor. http://www.inkscape.org/

Indeedy, Inkscape is a very nice SVG editor, and the one I use on my XP
box.

Dave S

-- 

0
dfs (2099)
4/17/2005 7:51:56 PM
In article <ant1719313459GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> Many years ago, I ran a training day at the Royal Masonic School
> for Girls (out of interest, it's where Indiana Jones is found
> lecturing in Raiders).

Ah yes, I remember that: the full title was Raiders of the Lost Arc
himedes  ;-)

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/17/2005 8:48:02 PM
In article <ant1719313459GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> One of the things to come out of that was that kids should log
> on using their forename and the first letter of their surname. We
> follow that principle to this day. Also, every kid has an individual
> login. I appreciate that in Scotland there might be a lot of surnames
> beginning in "M", but the extension to using "Mc" or "Mac" plus the
> next letter would probably work.

Or the first 7 letters of their surname plus the first initial - creates a
few SmithR1 SmithR2 type entries but there you go.

(Seems to work for setups with 10,000 user accounts...)

Lesson 1:
This is your username, without it you will not work.
It has a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use
a memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.

0
4/17/2005 8:48:36 PM
In message <ant1719313459GWx@riscpc.local>
          Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <cb9d755c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <URL:mailto:invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
> >           Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Teaching kids how to log on to a computer should not take lots of time.
> > Gosh!
> > Come and teach our 'bottom sections', then.
> > Pleeeeeeeeeeease!
[big snip]
> 
> I don't know how it's structured for you at the minute; that's just the
> way we do it.
Ours is very similar.
Log in is for example GilbertM.
Then there's a password.
The bottom sections usually can't spell their names, or remember their login
- even though these particular classes were allowed to choose (middle
classes and above have a random-letter-and-number login).

Teacher and Learning support assistant help each individually with that.
Basically, they have to log each child in.
But with that sort of class, you can't really take your eyes off the class
while helping one kid to log in...and the last one to be helped is getting
awfully bored and fractious...then the first one is bored waiting for the
rest to logon.

Luckily it's not my problem (but I've seen it for myself on a please-take):
It's hard enough getting them to write their names at the top of
worksheets! (We're talking kids who a few years back would have been in
Special Ed with teachers who were trained in Special Needs, but now are
'socially included' in mainstream, where the classes are bigger and the
teachers aren't trained in Special Needs, not even as far as knowing what SN
books or software are worth getting for them. Don't get me started!)

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 10:33:56 PM
In message <4d5d30f626steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>
          Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:


> Lesson 1:
> This is your username, without it you will not work.
> It has a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use
> a memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
> password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.

I'd love to see you try that track with 1G.
(Admittedly we all tried when the special needs kids first came to us,
because we didn't know any better, either.)

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 10:35:47 PM
In message <4262b205$0$290$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>
          Andrew Donaldson <nospam@adonaldson.freeuk.com> wrote:

> Liz wrote:
> 
> [of www.greensocialist.org.uk]
> 
> > Fresco "seemed" to render it all fine except for the Flash animation, but I
> > didn't look at it in anything else, so I may have been missing some stuff,
> > and I didn't try to get beyond the front page. I wonder if the applet,
> > iframe etc (shown by the w3c validation) were really needed?
> 
> Probably not, along with the table-based layout ;-)

Indeed.
Good job the problem wasn't posted to e.g. alt-html or unwa, or they'd have
got the kind of response usually reserved here for someone who top-posts
about Windows.

I read them from a safe distance nowadays.

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/17/2005 11:17:48 PM
In article <ant1718081cb9GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
<michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> If you or Paul have anything approaching proof of corruption, would you
> please publish it rather than making silly wee hints.

So you still don't know the difference between proof and sufficient proof
for a court?

You've already mentioned two occasions yourself - and, in such things,
those that are publicised are just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to
appear totally foolish and say that no corruption happened - then say so.
If not then please accept that a number of people may well have knowledge
of such acts without being able (or feel safe) to act on that knowledge.

When schools started to purchase Windows PCs the Acorn systems had more
(UK) educational software, had a lower TCO, and were better platforms on
which to explain how computers worked. Now if you look back at the
statement of mine you'll find that's what I said - contradicting earlier
statements that Acorns didn't have the educational software, cost more, and
Windows was somehow better.

We could go into details, find exceptions to the rule, and I could append
IMHO at the start of every one of my statements - but that doesn't alter
the truth of the matter.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 11:26:00 PM
In article <ant1718468689GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
<michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> So do I. Both my kids are creative, intelligent and learn stuff. If they
> want to learn about how anything works, I'll tell them. In school,
> they're taught how stuff works. They don't get some geek droning on to
> them for great chunks of time about bits and bytes and OS and the
> history of PARC, though. And I don't think they suffer by it.

You were rather rude about my apparently putting the wrong words into my
mouth. You've just done the same with the above statement. I'd be rather
angry and upset - except that I'm fairly certain that we have almost
identical views and are simply misunderstanding one another.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 11:29:27 PM
In article <ant171825d079GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> publish them and be damned

I prefer not to be damned. It can get expensive. And to help keep the
lawyers at bay - the institutions that I had in mind are none that I've
taught at.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 11:32:23 PM
In article <ant171825d079GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> Acorn moved to a regional Agency model before Xemplar happened, if
> that's what you mean. Agents were chosen as the existing dealers best
> able to support Acorn in a specific region of the country. They thereby
> had exclusive access to schools in that territory, and were paid on
> sales in that area. This was a major benefit to both the dealers and to
> Acorn. Prior to that the insane situation existed where the LEA tender
> could be won by a dealer from hundreds of miles away, solely because
> they undercut the local supplier on price. Service was not an option.
> Like everything with Acorn, it was too little and too late.

> Your information possibly comes from a dealer who didn't get Agency
> status and was disaffected by this.

At the time Xemplar took over and Acorn started paying agencies according
to areas I had just arranged a deal on behalf of my school. The agent that
had done all the work, over a long period of time, received nothing because
his new 'area' did not cover the school. An agent that had never been to
the school, had never done any of the work, and provided no support,
received a payment from Acorn. I received copies of the payment orders.

For those who aren't following this - the agents did not act as retailers.
The school paid Acorn and Acorn sent a payment to the appropriate agent.
That seems to be fairly strict (but haywire) control to me.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 11:40:00 PM
In article <75c63a5d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4d5d30f626steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> Steven Pampling
>           <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:


> > Lesson 1: This is your username, without it you will not work. It has
> > a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use a
> > memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
> > password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.

> I'd love to see you try that track with 1G. (Admittedly we all tried
> when the special needs kids first came to us, because we didn't know any
> better, either.)

That's probably why Acorn produced the Xemplar Launcher. Works quite well
as long as you have appropriate hardware and IIRC it works in the same way
that such kids recognoise their own cloakroom pegs - position, picture,
name.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/17/2005 11:48:41 PM
In message <4d5d41731cjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <75c63a5d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <4d5d30f626steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> Steven Pampling
> >           <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Lesson 1: This is your username, without it you will not work. It has
> > > a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use a
> > > memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
> > > password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.
> 
> > I'd love to see you try that track with 1G. (Admittedly we all tried
> > when the special needs kids first came to us, because we didn't know any
> > better, either.)
> 
> That's probably why Acorn produced the Xemplar Launcher. Works quite well
> as long as you have appropriate hardware and IIRC it works in the same way
> that such kids recognoise their own cloakroom pegs - position, picture,
> name.
> 

Which is why we use the same (almost exact loolalike) on the PC suite
using Winsuite.
-- 
Dave Wisnia, Leeds
0
dswis (522)
4/18/2005 6:02:09 AM
In article <4d5d30f626steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, Steven Pampling
<URL:mailto:steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <ant1719313459GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > One of the things to come out of that was that kids should log
> > on using their forename and the first letter of their surname. We
> > follow that principle to this day. Also, every kid has an individual
> > login. I appreciate that in Scotland there might be a lot of surnames
> > beginning in "M", but the extension to using "Mc" or "Mac" plus the
> > next letter would probably work.
> 
> Or the first 7 letters of their surname plus the first initial - creates a
> few SmithR1 SmithR2 type entries but there you go.

Using "x-letters-of" immediately adds a layer of complexity that isn't
useful for five year olds. Five year olds also generally know their
forename, and learn to spell it quite early, whereas their surname
isn't as important to them. Also, the forename is less useful as an
identifier than a a surname would be, in the case of malicious intent.

> (Seems to work for setups with 10,000 user accounts...)
> 
> Lesson 1:
> This is your username, without it you will not work.
> It has a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use
> a memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
> password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.
>

Never ever insist on passwords for primary age children. On a local
school network they are unnecessary, they add to the learning curve and
they will always be forgotten. The work the kids store on the computer
is an extension of that they keep in their trays. If you don't lock
those, why lock the other?

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/18/2005 6:39:02 AM
In article <059b3a5d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<URL:mailto:invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant1719313459GWx@riscpc.local>
>           Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <cb9d755c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> > <URL:mailto:invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In message <ant1608571cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
> > >           Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Teaching kids how to log on to a computer should not take lots of time.
> > > Gosh!
> > > Come and teach our 'bottom sections', then.
> > > Pleeeeeeeeeeease!
> [big snip]
> > 
> > I don't know how it's structured for you at the minute; that's just the
> > way we do it.
> Ours is very similar.
> Log in is for example GilbertM.
> Then there's a password.
> The bottom sections usually can't spell their names, or remember their login
> - even though these particular classes were allowed to choose (middle
> classes and above have a random-letter-and-number login).

See my reply to Steve - or PamplinS, as his login would be. Above and
beyond what I said there, you normally call kids by their forenames. If
that's the case, why doesn't the computer know their forenames too? And
I bet the bottom sections can spell their forenames. And why do they
have to have passwords? Small kids will choose something that seems
good at the time, but have forgotten by the time they next pass that
point in the swim around the bowl. 
> 
> Teacher and Learning support assistant help each individually with that.
> Basically, they have to log each child in.
> But with that sort of class, you can't really take your eyes off the class
> while helping one kid to log in...and the last one to be helped is getting
> awfully bored and fractious...then the first one is bored waiting for the
> rest to logon.
> 
> Luckily it's not my problem (but I've seen it for myself on a please-take):
> It's hard enough getting them to write their names at the top of
> worksheets! (We're talking kids who a few years back would have been in
> Special Ed with teachers who were trained in Special Needs, but now are
> 'socially included' in mainstream, where the classes are bigger and the
> teachers aren't trained in Special Needs, not even as far as knowing what SN
> books or software are worth getting for them. Don't get me started!)
> 
Individual IEPs via www.the-educator.co.uk

And for an inclusive school look at www.bcps.org.uk

Cheers

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/18/2005 6:46:38 AM
In article <4d5d3f5f21john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant1718081cb9GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
> <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> > If you or Paul have anything approaching proof of corruption, would you
> > please publish it rather than making silly wee hints.
> 
> So you still don't know the difference between proof and sufficient proof
> for a court?
> 
> You've already mentioned two occasions yourself - and, in such things,
> those that are publicised are just the tip of the iceberg. If you want to
> appear totally foolish and say that no corruption happened - then say so.

Snip you go again, John. You're appearing totally foolish yourself by
alleging a massive conspiracy with no supporting evidence whatsoever.
The two cases I mentioned are totally different in all respects to what
you are alleging.

> If not then please accept that a number of people may well have knowledge
> of such acts without being able (or feel safe) to act on that knowledge.

You're a sodding magazine publisher. Show some moral bloody courage
rather than wittering in the twilight.
> 
> When schools started to purchase Windows PCs the Acorn systems had more
> (UK) educational software, had a lower TCO, and were better platforms on
> which to explain how computers worked. Now if you look back at the
> statement of mine you'll find that's what I said - contradicting earlier
> statements that Acorns didn't have the educational software, cost more, and
> Windows was somehow better.

I'm afraid that you are completely and totally wrong in the above
paragraph. At no point in time were Acorn the sole provider of computer
systems to education. RM were the preferred supplier of systems to
about half of the LEAs in the country. I can go to Cornwall or ex-Avon
tomorrow and find someone to post an absolutely contrary view to that
you are propounding.

> 
> We could go into details, find exceptions to the rule, and I could append
> IMHO at the start of every one of my statements - but that doesn't alter
> the truth of the matter.
>
In your opinion.

Mike

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/18/2005 6:52:16 AM
In article <4d5d41731cjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<URL:mailto:john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <75c63a5d4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
> <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <4d5d30f626steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> Steven Pampling
> >           <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> > > Lesson 1: This is your username, without it you will not work. It has
> > > a password, the first time you use it it will be <xxxx> you will use a
> > > memorable item and you will not share the information. Without a valid
> > > password you cannot log in, with out a login you will not work.
> 
> > I'd love to see you try that track with 1G. (Admittedly we all tried
> > when the special needs kids first came to us, because we didn't know any
> > better, either.)
> 
> That's probably why Acorn produced the Xemplar Launcher. Works quite well
> as long as you have appropriate hardware and IIRC it works in the same way
> that such kids recognoise their own cloakroom pegs - position, picture,
> name.

Actually, Acorn produced the Junior Toolbox, which was adopted by
Xemplar. The front end was developed by Launch Systems, a sister
company to Kudlian, who can still supply it for Windows.

The Toolbox concept was pinched from RM, the Launcher was Acorn's spin
on WindowBox. Toolbox moved on to Windows too, and is still available
from Links Education (who picked up the PC side of Xemplar), although in
an updated form.

Cheers

Mike 

-- 
Michael Gilbert: in his own write
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/archiology for old Acorn software items
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/access for Acorn peer-to-peer tools
http://www.lewisgilbert.co.uk/ebay.html for old Acorn hardware items.

0
michael8697 (149)
4/18/2005 6:55:48 AM
In article <4d5d40a756john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> For those who aren't following this - the agents did not act as
> retailers. The school paid Acorn and Acorn sent a payment to the
> appropriate agent. That seems to be fairly strict (but haywire) control
> to me.

Sounds more like a bad business ethic in the RISC OS camp to me.

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/18/2005 9:03:15 AM
In article <1113815556.646cb99e2481685cea54e82eb056644f@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5d40a756john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
>    John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > For those who aren't following this - the agents did not act as
> > retailers. The school paid Acorn and Acorn sent a payment to the
> > appropriate agent. That seems to be fairly strict (but haywire) control
> > to me.

> Sounds more like a bad business ethic in the RISC OS camp to me.

The demise of the Acorn education market was complex. It involved bad
mistakes, bad government policy, hardware that was 'too good', corrupt
practices, conspiracies, &c. All contributed as did RiscStations arriving
just a touch too late and at a lowered spec.

A change in any variable could easily have produced quite a different
situation now.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/18/2005 9:57:53 AM
Liz wrote:
> In message <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>
>           Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>> In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
>> acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
>> browsers are starting to impliment it.
>> 
>> Mr Gates' ideas may have held sway in the past, and to some degree in
>> the present, but I believe his influence is on the wane.
>> 
> Although not vector, there's also the technology, I've only seen it on map
> sites, where you can repeatedly zoom in for more detail. I've no idea how
> it's done, and have no need to know, but it works on Fresco.
> That would be relevant to John's example.

Vector converted to bit map on the server probably.

-- 

               http://www.ollieclark.com/acronyms.html
0
oliverc (232)
4/18/2005 12:46:41 PM
Michael Gilbert wrote:
> Never ever insist on passwords for primary age children. On a local
> school network they are unnecessary, they add to the learning curve and
> they will always be forgotten. The work the kids store on the computer
> is an extension of that they keep in their trays. If you don't lock
> those, why lock the other?

At the age of 5 I would have been quite capable of doing all sorts of 
damage to poorly protected computer systems. And I'd have found it more 
fun than doing the same to some paper...

Luckily my school realised this and I became the computer teachers helper 
so any damage I did would have to have been cleared up by me anyway. :-)

-- 

               http://www.ollieclark.com/acronyms.html
0
oliverc (232)
4/18/2005 2:52:42 PM
In article <ant180616b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> You're a sodding magazine publisher. Show some moral bloody courage
> rather than wittering in the twilight.

And, pardon me for butting in here (that's maybe not the best verb to
use in relation to "sodding"), but I'm curious why John believes his
time is well spent in this discussion.

The last edition of Qercus, like every other one I've examined in
detail, had obvious spelling & punctuation errors, as well as layout
and figure-captioning problems.  Are we to assume that these problems
are now fixed and John actually has time to participate in these long
usenet threads, or does he still not think that details of presentation
in his magazine are important?

I'd much rather the magazine demonstrated the sort of production values
that AP used to have, and, to be honest, the sort that one would expect
from reading John's weighty & considered comments in all these threads.
If it never recovers it will lose subscribers, and when that happens
John won't have the magazine-editor/publisher platform he thinks he has
now, and his usenet contributions won't be worth any more than anyone
else's.  What a waste that would be.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/18/2005 4:42:23 PM
In article <4d5d0886aaalan.calder@argonet.co.uk>,
   alan.calder <alan.calder@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5cfdf913steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > Since the only site I've found to date that doesn't
> > reliably work in Firefox is (surprise, surprise) the OS
> > update section of the MS site Firefox is the default
> > browser on that machine.

> You can include www.woolwich.co.uk as a site that won't
> work in Firefox. Despite prodding they seem to have no
> plans to change.

Yes, there are some iffy bits in at least 2 financial
website that I use.

www.hargreaveslandsdown.co.uk only seems to allow login
using IE6. Not Firefox, not Opera 7.

Window close after log out from the transaction pages of the
German VR banks website works fine in Opera 7, but Firefox
just ignores the command.

Both allow me to do all the transactions I need though.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/18/2005 4:55:58 PM
In message <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
          Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> See my reply to Steve - or PamplinS, as his login would be. Above and
> beyond what I said there, you normally call kids by their forenames. If
> that's the case, why doesn't the computer know their forenames too? And
> I bet the bottom sections can spell their forenames.
No, they can'y.

 And why do they
> have to have passwords? Small kids will choose something that seems
> good at the time, but have forgotten by the time they next pass that
> point in the swim around the bowl. 
We're talking about schools here, the kids go up to age 16+.
They can procreate, but not necessarily spell their names.
Not helped by their parents giving them difficult-to-spell names like jhon,
pol and miek (even if they could remember the mis-spellings it might not be
so much of a problem!
And now Irish names are 'in fashion'...

> Individual IEPs via www.the-educator.co.uk
Don't make me laugh.
I presume that's similar to ILPs that we are about to have imposed?
If so, again, don't get me started...
(A few years back, we became part of a 'community school initiative.
At start-up, they consulted parents, teachers and other related
professionals (police, health care, social work etc) about what they wanted
out of the community schools. Everyone wrote their piece, when it came to
prioritising we all bowed in favour of the request for the parents for
'Parenting classes'. The authority pooh-poohed that, ignored most of our
other suggestions and imposed what were at these point Personal Learning
Plans, with individual contracts etc. 
What a farce.
Just like the 'assurance of good behaviour' which is signed when a pupil
returns after an exclusion, these 'individual contracts' weren't worth the
paper they were written on/computer they were keyboarded into, and
*certainly* not worth the time and effort it took to undertake the
exercise.)
As usual in the education system, pupils have no responsibilities, only
Rights, and we have no rights, only Responsibilities.
 
> And for an inclusive school look at www.bcps.org.uk
It's a primary school, so hardly the same 'issues'.)
(someone should tell them it's "the school has" not "the school have", but
not this 'typo queen'.)
They've obviously thrown a lot of money at the school.
We have all our SEN (formerly in special ed) kids and challenging kids
(formerly in List D etc) with no special training and no special funding.

Our bottom classes are small, but at the expense of larger 'top' classes
(within the limit, which I believe is smaller in Scotland anyway).

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/18/2005 4:57:12 PM
In message <eb9c9f5d4d.LizUKL@liz13.uklinux.net>
          Liz <invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>
>           Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> And I bet the bottom sections can spell their forenames.
> No, they can'y.
I could lie and say that's a new version of 'cannae', but I won't.

Slainte

Liz


-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/18/2005 5:01:50 PM
In article <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> See my reply to Steve - or PamplinS, as his login would be.

Oh, it is.

You just don't know the domain or the password. :-)

Now if I'd said my middle name was actually my first when the accounts were
being created I could have had PAMPLING.

0
4/18/2005 5:16:51 PM
In article <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> And why do they
> have to have passwords? Small kids will choose something that seems
> good at the time, but have forgotten by the time they next pass that
> point in the swim around the bowl. 

And.
Hmmm, wouldn't you say that was an interesting start to a sentence in an
education thread :-)

However to be more precise I thought we were talking about the teachers,
who although IT challenged can usually remember things like passwords for
slightly longer periods than a goldfish.
For people with special difficulties (and the kids too) you can have the
imposed password such as is used on one of our systems at work where the
user can't change passwords. The imposed password is something based on
an anagram of their name or sometimes just the nearest item in the office.
Just prior to lunch today that happened to be a sandwich.

0
4/18/2005 5:22:19 PM
In article <9a4b895c4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:

> But remember, our Computing PT had a free choice what
> platform to use, and *chose* to move from RISC OS to
> Windows. (At the time, I know that Standard Grade could
> be delivered via RISC OS, PC or Macs at least, because I
> saw the written materials when I was 'please-taking').

And even more to the point, it could be done quite easily in
a department equipped roughly 50:50 with windows PCs and
Macs.

Same work booklets, same files, so the kids could become
familiar with both OSs. As the windows machines were more
popular - faster, colour - it was a point of classroom
management to make sure that all got a go on the "good"
machines.

They also got to see the cheap, badly built windows machines
crash and / or fail to boot up, while the macs, by and
large, just kept on keeping on.

I also "delivered" a number of what used to be called
Scotvec (what are they called now? I really ought to
remember!) modules using the same combination of machines.

> However, nowadays he uses KeyBytes and LightBytes: I
> don't know if they're Windows-only; certainly *not*
> Microsoft, but not, AFAIK, available for RISC OS.

During my year of teching this side of the border the books
and worksheet were definitely windows only (though there
could have been other editions, I guess).

I thought that some of the content was pretty good.

> I haven't noseyed around the dizzy heights of Higher
> Computing Studies.

Yes, a looong time since I was involved in that. mainly BBC
Masters...

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/18/2005 5:53:19 PM
In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
<Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I'm curious why John believes his time is well spent in this discussion.

Discussion elsewhere has managed to solve one very specific layout problem
so it certainly works to some extent [and the knowledge learnt will appear
in a future issue of Qercus].
And I'm curious to know how much of my time is bought by editorship of
Qercus. Am I allowed free discussion time after 6 hours a day? 8 hours? 12
hours? Noting that, so far today I've put in 10 hours less about 1 hour for
meals - and I don't think I've spent much time 'chatting'...

Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and - whether
like myself - he works 7 days a week?

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/18/2005 5:58:26 PM
Liz wrote:

> Good job the problem wasn't posted to e.g. alt-html or unwa, or they'd have
> got the kind of response usually reserved here for someone who top-posts
> about Windows.

:-D

Andrew
0
nospam3608 (22)
4/18/2005 6:58:44 PM
On 18 Apr, Ollie Clark wrote:

> Liz wrote:
> > In message <gemini.if1sw70086a4w09pt.bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk>
> >           Bungee <bungee@erodin.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> In worlds other than Windows, there is a slow but steady increase in
> >> acceptance of SVG. There are two SVG editors that I know of and some
> >> browsers are starting to impliment it.
> >> 
> >> Mr Gates' ideas may have held sway in the past, and to some degree in
> >> the present, but I believe his influence is on the wane.
> >> 
> > Although not vector, there's also the technology, I've only seen it on map
> > sites, where you can repeatedly zoom in for more detail. I've no idea how
> > it's done, and have no need to know, but it works on Fresco.
> > That would be relevant to John's example.
> 
> Vector converted to bit map on the server probably.

For the map sites I've used it's nothing so fancy. They just have a
(small) number of bitmap maps at various scales and pressing the 'zoom'
button just selects a map of the appropriate scale. There's no way you
can do a simple vector convserion system for something as complex as a
map; at each scale the detail of annotation (eg. include small street
names?) changes or you'd have a complete mess.


-- 
Sendu Bala http://sendu.me.uk/ | Tori, Kenshin, DNA and my Iyonix

"I tell you with no ego that this is my finest blade. If you should
encounter God, God will be cut."
0
sendu1 (179)
4/18/2005 7:09:44 PM
On 18 Apr 2005 Sendu Bala <sendu@sendu.me.uk> wrote:
> For the map sites I've used it's nothing so fancy. They just have a
> (small) number of bitmap maps at various scales and pressing the 'zoom'
> button just selects a map of the appropriate scale.

Map sites such as multimap use a veriety of digitised maps including some of
the ordinance survey series, mainly due to the familarity with these types of
maps. The oridinace surevy itself is digitising all of its maps, and their
site contained a demo where it rendered the map in 3D with topographic
information.

> There's no way you can do a simple vector convserion system for something
> as complex as a map; at each scale the detail of annotation (eg. include
> small street names?) changes or you'd have a complete mess.

The maps in Satnav systems use vector data and despite the linited size and
processing power, make a fair attempt at determining the level of detail that
is appropriate for the zoom level. We've had similar algorithms in cad
packages for years.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
4/18/2005 7:28:15 PM
In article <4d5da537f8john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
> <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm curious why John believes his time is well spent in this
> > discussion.

> Discussion elsewhere has managed to solve one very specific layout
> problem so it certainly works to some extent [and the knowledge
> learnt will appear in a future issue of Qercus].

> And I'm curious to know how much of my time is bought by editorship
> of Qercus. Am I allowed free discussion time after 6 hours a day? 8
> hours? 12 hours? Noting that, so far today I've put in 10 hours less
> about 1 hour for meals - and I don't think I've spent much time
> 'chatting'...

You're "allowed" as much free time as you want.  But I question your
decision to spend so much time on usenet matters that don't directly
affect your revenue, when - I'd say - poor presentation in Qercus very
definitely does.  And nine hours work today doesn't sound like very
much if Qercus is your business and you're determined to make it the
best publication you possibly can.

Maybe the fact that people subscribe, rather than buy each edition as
it comes out, hides this from you.  But you should consider whether or
not you think we're all going to renew those subscriptions if on the
one hand we see you getting *heavily* involved in usenet threads, and
on the other hand we don't see evidence of improvements in the quality
of what you print in the magazine.

> Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and -
> whether like myself - he works 7 days a week?

a) I don't work at the moment, because I'm long-term sick.

b) Even if I did work, the numbers would be irrelevant because I did
   not flaunt myself in a public forum while simultaneously asking
   the people who could see that to pay me for a product which has
   not reached high enough standards (or maintained those set by the
   previous owner/publisher).

c) I did in fact work very long hours, much of it at anti-social
   times.

d) I regarded myself as responsible for all of the work that the 
   team which I lead performed.  I carried a pager 24h/day, only
   handing that over when I absolutely had to.  I didn't get paid
   to provide that level of cover (though I had previously been
   part of a paid on-call rota in another department) but did so
   because otherwise when there were problems in the area I was
   responsible for my team tended only to hear about it on the
   following day/week, when we'd be blamed.  Carrying a pager, I
   changed that attitude to one where we would not take the blame
   if we had not been called and given a chance to assess whether
   we actually were at fault at the time a problem occurred. If 
   a problem was our fault I'd go in to provide a workaround no 
   matter when that was needed. It was not unusual - though in
   theory we worked normal hours - for me or one of my colleagues
   to be on site at or after midnight any day of the week.  

   We were trying to change a team which had previously had
   lack-lustre performance and low levels of achievement into one 
   which would be well-regarded and trusted by everyone else.

   This job was at a Bank's computer centre, where - because large
   amounts of money were at stake - attention to detail was very
   important as mistakes could cost the Bank or one of its customers
   a great deal of money.

   I did manage to have some activities outside work, eg singing in
   the Edinburgh Festival Chorus & Scottish Chamber Orchestra Chorus.
   Although neither group paid their singers, we had professional
   Chorus Masters & accompanists, and sang either with (EFC) a variety
   of professional orchestras & conductors both in Edinburgh & abroad,
   or (SCOC) with the SCO under various conductors, here & abroad. There
   are also several commercial opera CDs available where I'm in the
   chorus. 

   Nevertheless it's certain that my personal life (and some might say,
   my health) suffered because of the level of perfectionism I brought
   to my work.  However there's no way I'd have put into production any
   code/procedure that didn't match the levels of professionalism I'd
   experienced in other parts of the same organisation.  Choosing to
   cover what we did in the way I chose did make a big difference, very
   quickly, to the manner in which my team was perceived and hence
   treated.

The problem I see with Qercus is that although there's been some fine
words spoken - lots of "we'll do this, and we'll do that", the actual
quality of what is delivered does not match the hype.  For me, each
typo or production error I see inflicts damage on my perception of the
quality of the magazine - probably out of all proportion to the size of
the error.  The problem for you is that you will have to produce many
issues with zero faults before I stop expecting to see faults, and by
then I'll likely have reached the end of my subscription.  My revised
expectation has ruined the enjoyment I used to get from reading AP, and
makes reading each new edition of Qercus more like a proof-reading or
correcting exercise.  I wish I could relax and just let the content
wash over me, but I can't.  I now read Qercus with a pen in my hand,
ringing errors.  It's a pity that someone on the production staff can't
do the same, first.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/18/2005 7:49:50 PM
On 16 Apr, John Cartmell wrote in message
  <4d5cb8e205john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> In article <4d5cb644dccharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
> <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > And, of course firms that used to market models to be controlled by
> > BBC Micros either no longer do so becasue of lack of demand or because
> > theyhave gone out of business.
> 
> So why don't schools want to do the sort of education that they once
> thought was important? It's not that the learning involved is out of
> date or isn't used in industry.

Industry?  What's that?  Has the UK still got any left? :-(

> NB I want to go forward - not back. Is there anything better for such
> teaching? If not why not - other than the answer that I think is true -
> ie that because Microsoft systems don't deliver it cannot be important?

I thought that the LEGO systems were supposed to have (informal) uses in
these kinds of areas.  They have even been used from RISC OS systems,
IIRC.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/18/2005 8:05:53 PM
In article <ant180616b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
   Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> Snip you go again, John. You're appearing totally foolish yourself by
> alleging a massive conspiracy with no supporting evidence whatsoever. The
> two cases I mentioned are totally different in all respects to what you
> are alleging.

I think you are mis-interpreting the scenario too, as to make it sound
simplistic. It's not. Unless you can provide solid, concrete proof then you
are opening yourself to accusations of slander and libel. 
It's easy to win a libel case by proving the truth of the allegations or
(harder) to prove they were in the public interest.

However, most people involved in the back-handers probably ensured that the
paperwork has been 'lost' or destroyed, if it even existed in the first
place. Sure I /could/ name names as I certainly have some very specific
names, not just of companies and schools but even individual people etc.
However, I can't provide proof so don't want to be accused of anything,
even if it IS true.
Microsoft are so big and powerful, I'm sure they could hide evidence of any
level of corruption, or just ignore governments, as they did with
anti-trust cases.

Therefore some of the level of corruption was simply too big to expose. The
large companies had such a level of vested interest that they could hide
their papertrails.

> You're a sodding magazine publisher. Show some moral bloody courage
> rather than wittering in the twilight.

Yes, and face a libel case if he can't provide solid evidence.

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

Live for Today.
0
4/18/2005 10:47:59 PM
In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The last edition of Qercus, like every other one I've examined in
> detail, had obvious spelling & punctuation errors, as well as
> layout and figure-captioning problems.  Are we to assume that these
> problems are now fixed and John actually has time to participate in
> these long usenet threads, or does he still not think that details
> of presentation in his magazine are important?

Although I agree about these (numerous) slip-ups, it is a golden rule
of proofreading that it needs to be done by someone else -- not the
writer, editor or whoever it was who created either the material or
the layout.

Thus it really isn't for John C to do, as he would be certain to fall
prey to that trap of reading what he subconsciously expects to find
rather than what is there.  I, living alone, have to do all my own
proofreading, and -- although I am very good at it -- even I can miss
things occasionally.

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/18/2005 10:49:04 PM
In article <4d5da537f8john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and - whether
> like myself - he works 7 days a week?

Only 7 days..... tut tut. What are you spending all those nights doing?
You're wasting so much time..... ;-) ;-)

-- 
Paul                       __\\|//__            Life,
                           (` o-o ')        the Universe
http://www.vigay.com -----ooO-(_)-Ooo------ & Everything ------
(email address is genuine, to fool junkmailers)

The hardness of butter is directly proportional to the softness of the bread.
0
4/18/2005 10:49:43 PM
In article <4d5daf6ae9Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> And nine hours work today doesn't sound like very
> much if Qercus is your business and you're determined to make it the
> best publication you possibly can.

That was 9 hours by 6pm.
It's been 15.5 hours now less a couple of hours socialising. Probably only
another hour's work though.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/18/2005 11:40:52 PM
In article <4d5daf6ae9Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
<Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> It's a pity that someone on the production staff can't do the same,
> first.

We're working on it. I too am disappointed at the lack of perfection.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/18/2005 11:42:26 PM
In article <43e3b05d4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
<news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 16 Apr, John Cartmell wrote in message
>   <4d5cb8e205john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>:

> > In article <4d5cb644dccharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
> > <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > And, of course firms that used to market models to be controlled by
> > > BBC Micros either no longer do so becasue of lack of demand or
> > > because theyhave gone out of business.
> > 
> > So why don't schools want to do the sort of education that they once
> > thought was important? It's not that the learning involved is out of
> > date or isn't used in industry.

> Industry?  What's that?  Has the UK still got any left? :-(

> > NB I want to go forward - not back. Is there anything better for such
> > teaching? If not why not - other than the answer that I think is true
> > - ie that because Microsoft systems don't deliver it cannot be
> > important?

> I thought that the LEGO systems were supposed to have (informal) uses in
> these kinds of areas.  They have even been used from RISC OS systems,
> IIRC.

I did review the LegoDacta system when it first appeared. In many ways it's
a different beast and almost too complex in its attempt to be user
friendly. The simple Basic programs that I taught the kids to use on the
8-bit BBCs were much easier to cognitively link to the moving hardware. The
big step to take in teaching control is to get the kids to appreciate that
they could transfer their skills to something 'real'. The Lego system is
too insulated.
The best 'working in a window' system that I've used was Complete Control
from CSH but they stopped developing it before they included editing of
Draw files. ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/18/2005 11:58:02 PM
On 18-Apr-2005, pv <usenet-nospam@segfault.co.uk> wrote:

> It's easy to win a libel case by proving the truth of the
> allegations or (harder) to prove they were in the public interest.

AIUI (and obviously IANAL) in England it's not.

The fact that the allegation is true is *not* an absolute defence
under English law. People tend to get this wrong because 99% of the
legal dramas on film and TV are American, where that is the case.

Obviously the fact that you've spoken the truth is an important part
of your defence, but you might still have to pay a lot of damages.

Having said that I think it would be a defence in this particular case
*provided* you could provide absolute proof that your allegations were
true. But that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

-- 
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
0
news5974 (817)
4/19/2005 6:36:19 AM
In message <4d5dbef61ejohn@acornusers.org>
 
         John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:

> In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> The last edition of Qercus, like every other one I've examined in
>> detail, had obvious spelling & punctuation errors, as well as
>> layout and figure-captioning problems.  Are we to assume that these
>> problems are now fixed and John actually has time to participate in
>> these long usenet threads, or does he still not think that details
>> of presentation in his magazine are important?
> 
> Although I agree about these (numerous) slip-ups, it is a golden rule
> of proofreading that it needs to be done by someone else -- not the
> writer, editor or whoever it was who created either the material or
> the layout.

 
But not leave it to the subscribers to proof read it for typographical 
and grammatical errors and rear back aghast at the amateurish layout.  
I for one will not be renewing my subscription unless the magazine 
gets back to the same standard we enjoyed when Mike Williams was the 
editor.  And this will be a shame as I have subscribed since the first 
issue.

David
--
David Love
Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back.
0
zed1 (93)
4/19/2005 6:47:44 AM
In message <4d5da4bff7see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
          Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:


[snip]

> Scotvec (what are they called now?

They were amalgamated with the SEB (Scottish Examinations Board), a
highly respected body. They are now known as SQA (Scottish
Qualifications Authority). IMHO this has been little short of a
disaster.

-- 
Ian Wolfe.
Linlithgow. Birthplace of Mary, Queen of Scots.
Blessed are the peacemakers.

0
ian81 (117)
4/19/2005 8:21:47 AM
In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant180616b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> > You're a sodding magazine publisher. Show some moral bloody courage
> > rather than wittering in the twilight.

> And, pardon me for butting in here (that's maybe not the best verb to
> use in relation to "sodding"), but I'm curious why John believes his
> time is well spent in this discussion.

Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate to be in the centre
of discussions concerning RISC OS? It is one way of obtaining information
from a variety of different users of RISC OS in different situations.

It is after all a discussion with various opinions and John has every
right to express his views. I may not agree with them, but I do uphold
his right to say what he believes.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/19/2005 8:50:31 AM
In article <4d5daf6ae9Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and -
> > whether like myself - he works 7 days a week?

> a) I don't work at the moment, because I'm long-term sick.

Perhaps you should spend more time recuperating so that you can become
gainfully employed again. I'm sure that the stress of involvement in RISC
OS discussions must be detrimental to your health :-)

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/19/2005 8:52:44 AM
In article <4d5df717f6Ray@raydawson.com>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5daf6ae9Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and -
> > > whether like myself - he works 7 days a week?

> > a) I don't work at the moment, because I'm long-term sick.

> Perhaps you should spend more time recuperating so that you can
> become gainfully employed again. I'm sure that the stress of
> involvement in RISC OS discussions must be detrimental to your
> health :-)

Hm. Perhas tese groupsshold carry a Governmen health warning...

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/19/2005 9:20:27 AM
In article <4d5df8bd82john@acornusers.org>,
   John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <4d5df717f6Ray@raydawson.com>,
>    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5daf6ae9Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > > > Perhaps Jeremy will let us know what his working hours are and -
> > > > whether like myself - he works 7 days a week?

> > > a) I don't work at the moment, because I'm long-term sick.

> > Perhaps you should spend more time recuperating so that you can
> > become gainfully employed again. I'm sure that the stress of
> > involvement in RISC OS discussions must be detrimental to your
> > health :-)

> Hm. Perhas tese groupsshold carry a Governmen health warning...

Funny: that left here correct.  Try again:

"Hmm. Perhaps these groups should carry a Government health
warning..."

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/19/2005 9:22:50 AM
In article <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <ant180616b499GWx@riscpc.local>,
> >    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:

> > > You're a sodding magazine publisher. Show some moral bloody courage
> > > rather than wittering in the twilight.

> > And, pardon me for butting in here (that's maybe not the best verb to
> > use in relation to "sodding"), but I'm curious why John believes his
> > time is well spent in this discussion.

> Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate to be in the centre
> of discussions concerning RISC OS? It is one way of obtaining information
> from a variety of different users of RISC OS in different situations.

> It is after all a discussion with various opinions and John has every
> right to express his views. I may not agree with them, but I do uphold
> his right to say what he believes.

Distilled version of my relevant opinions:
Education is more than simply important.
RISC OS systems can (and did) contribute to good education.
Windows is symptomatic of all that is bad in education - rewards passive
rather than active use, emphasises gee-whiz over understanding, makes it
difficult to appreciate what is happening 'under the bonnet'.
I see a future for RISC OS (in education and elsewhere) though not one
copying the Windows style.
I object to people 'talking down' RISC OS because it makes that future
harder to attain.

If you believe in something it's hard to remain quiet when people are
knocking what you believe.

PS For Jeremy: I forgot to clock off (it was 2am) and to clock on (it was
5.32am) and I have to admit that I took a whole hour over breakfast. ;-(

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/19/2005 9:59:32 AM
In article <aa42f45d4d.jwolfe@jwolfe.f2s.com>, Ian Wolfe
<ian@jwolfe.f2s.com> wrote:
> In message <4d5da4bff7see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
>           Russell Hafter
>           <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:


> [snip]

> > Scotvec (what are they called now?

> They were amalgamated with the SEB (Scottish Examinations
> Board), a highly respected body. They are now known as
> SQA (Scottish Qualifications Authority). IMHO this has
> been little short of a disaster.

Of course!

I even worked for the SQA for two years after I moved south
of the border!!

Let us hope that the brain finally re-engages properly!

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/19/2005 10:46:36 AM
In article <4d5df717f6Ray@raydawson.com>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Perhaps you should spend more time recuperating so that you can become
> gainfully employed again.

I spend a great deal of time asleep, in fact.  My 'net presence is
quite large (more so than I'd be able to do if well), because most of
my social life occurs via the computer.  The 'net is very useful for
people with small bursts of energy, every so often.  I can pick up
conversations where I left off hours or days earlier, which doesn't
work in face-to-face real life.

As for recuperation; what's needed is a cure.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/19/2005 10:56:11 AM
In article <4d5dbef61ejohn@acornusers.org>, John M Ward
<john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <4d5d9e4162Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > The last edition of Qercus, like every other one I've examined in
> > detail, had obvious spelling & punctuation errors, as well as
> > layout and figure-captioning problems.  Are we to assume that these
> > problems are now fixed and John actually has time to participate in
> > these long usenet threads, or does he still not think that details
> > of presentation in his magazine are important?

> Although I agree about these (numerous) slip-ups, it is a golden rule
> of proofreading that it needs to be done by someone else -- not the
> writer, editor or whoever it was who created either the material or
> the layout.

I agree, up to a point.  Text written by John clearly needs checked by
someone else, though as his emails rarely have spelling/grammar errors
it's also clear that he is capable of spotting these in his own writing
- or more likely he doesn't make them in the first place.

If the problem is that after he's worked on the layout of other
people's texts, he no longer sees the detail, then perhaps the initial
check for spelling & grammar errors should be done on plain text before
any of it goes anywhere near a DTP package.

Text written by other people is often poor too.  Maybe, John feels that
he shouldn't correct errors in other people's work, in case it annoys
them.  Well, I'd say he should.

Why doesn't every page get put through a spell-checker?  Why doesn't
each family member involved check everyone else's text?

There should be a list of things that get checked, always.  Figure
caption numbers and text should always be reviewed.  References to
other pages need a final check. Page numbers in the index need
checked...  It should be impossible for things like that to be wrong.


> Thus it really isn't for John C to do, as he would be certain to fall
> prey to that trap of reading what he subconsciously expects to find
> rather than what is there.

A good way around that is to read each sentence from right to left;
words that are not spelled correctly still look wrong.

> I, living alone, have to do all my own
> proofreading, and -- although I am very good at it -- even I can miss
> things occasionally.

Yes, we all do.  But in Qercus it's never been occasional.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/19/2005 11:14:41 AM
In article <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate to be in the
> centre of discussions concerning RISC OS?

Perhaps he does.  All I'm trying to say is that he won't be a magazine
editor too much longer if the subscribers abandon him.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/19/2005 11:16:16 AM
In article <4d5e043c06Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
>    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate to be in the
> > centre of discussions concerning RISC OS?

> Perhaps he does.  All I'm trying to say is that he won't be a magazine
> editor too much longer if the subscribers abandon him.

That appears to be a supposition based on nothing other than your
objection to John participating in discussions on c.s.a newsgroups.

I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him. Rather, the opposite
as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the newsgroups - which
is something all responsible editors should do.

All IMHO of course.

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/19/2005 12:25:06 PM
In article <1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him. Rather, the opposite
> as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the newsgroups - which
> is something all responsible editors should do.

You obtain facts by lurking.  Making strong statements is another matter,
unless trying to provoke appearance of further facts.

> All IMHO of course.


and in mine

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/19/2005 12:48:17 PM
In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B
Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Text written by other people is often poor too.  Maybe,
> John feels that he shouldn't correct errors in other
> people's work, in case it annoys them.  Well, I'd say he
> should.

Of course he should. That is what a sub-editor's job is.
John may have to be both editor (deciding on content) and
sub-editor (checking spelling, layout and other things), but
both are important.

If an author were to respond that (s)he did not like John's
version of the spelling, there is always the response "House
Style" available, at least as long as the House Style
includes correct spelling.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/19/2005 12:51:22 PM
In article
<1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>, Ray
Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e043c06Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C
>    B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> >    <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
> >    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate
> > > to be in the centre of discussions concerning RISC OS?

> > Perhaps he does.  All I'm trying to say is that he
> > won't be a magazine editor too much longer if the
> > subscribers abandon him.

> That appears to be a supposition based on nothing other
> than your objection to John participating in discussions
> on c.s.a newsgroups.

> I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him.

Jeremy's problem with Quercus is the appalling sub editing,
something which is painstaking, takes up a lot of time and
is exceedingly difficult for the person who knows the text.

Bad presentation (of the type found in Qercus these days)
does, sadly, inevitably make one wonder if the content is
trustworthy, or whether the content is as poorly checked
before publication as the spelling.

For what it is worth, I too have been wondering whether the
magazine is worth continuing, for exactly the same reasons.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/19/2005 12:55:50 PM
In article <4d5e0ca8c3charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>, Ray
>    Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him. Rather, the
> > opposite as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the
> > newsgroups - which is something all responsible editors should do.

> You obtain facts by lurking.  

I don't see why participation obtains less facts than by lurking.

> Making strong statements is another matter, unless trying to provoke
> appearance of further facts.

But these are newsgroups meant for the discussion of all things Acorn or
RISC OS. There are many strong opinions held and stated by posters from
widely different viewpoints.

John's views, although different to some others, are always politely put
and he doesn't resort to the abusive posts made by some elements of the
fraternity. Maybe some of his posts are provocative, but isn't that what
stimulates discussion?

If you disagree with John, you can either ignore his post or make a
reasoned response. The problem seems to be that some of the opposing
views are held by those who are unable to participate in reasoned debate
and resort to insults to cover their lack of knowledge or any substance
to their viewpoint.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/19/2005 1:16:26 PM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: Distilled version of my relevant opinions:
: Education is more than simply important.
: RISC OS systems can (and did) contribute to good education.
: Windows is symptomatic of all that is bad in education - rewards passive
: rather than active use, emphasises gee-whiz over understanding, makes it
: difficult to appreciate what is happening 'under the bonnet'.

I'm not convinced this is really an Operating System (RISC-OS
versus Windows) issue.  Obviously I have an axe to grind, but
in my opinion running BBC BASIC under Windows rewards 'active'
use in just the way you want to encourage, and also gives a
good insight into what's 'under the bonnet' of Windows.

Right at the heart of what I wanted to achieve with 'BBC BASIC
for Windows' was not only a good degree of compatibility with 
other versions of BBC BASIC but - most importantly - an easy
route into the Windows API (Application Program Interface) to
allow BBC BASIC programmers to adopt the Windows-style GUI and
gain an understanding of the Windows user interface philosophy.

The way to stem the tide of 'passive', 'gee-whiz' computing is
not to hope, Canute-like, that RISC-OS machines will somehow
supplant Windows PCs in schools - it ain't going to happen - 
but to use those ubiquitous Windows PCs for exactly the good
educational purposes you so rightly propound.

It is my claim, however immodest, that running 'BBC BASIC for
Windows' on those PCs is a route to achieving that end.  A
number of enlightened schools do indeed use my product, and it
is approved by the Government's National Grid for Learning:

 http://www.ngfl.gov.uk/search.jsp?sec=23&res=70692

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
0
news1075 (671)
4/19/2005 1:17:54 PM
In article <d430e2$aq7$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>, <news@rtrussell.co.uk>
wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> : Distilled version of my relevant opinions: Education is more than
> : simply important. RISC OS systems can (and did) contribute to good
> : education. Windows is symptomatic of all that is bad in education -
> : rewards passive rather than active use, emphasises gee-whiz over
> : understanding, makes it difficult to appreciate what is happening
> : 'under the bonnet'.

> I'm not convinced this is really an Operating System (RISC-OS versus
> Windows) issue.  Obviously I have an axe to grind, but in my opinion
> running BBC BASIC under Windows rewards 'active' use in just the way you
> want to encourage, and also gives a good insight into what's 'under the
> bonnet' of Windows.

I'm looking at how systems are used in schools - not just how they can be
used. I might have to (slightly) amend my comment if BBC Basic was
available on all school systems.

> Right at the heart of what I wanted to achieve with 'BBC BASIC for
> Windows' was not only a good degree of compatibility with other
> versions of BBC BASIC but - most importantly - an easy route into the
> Windows API (Application Program Interface) to allow BBC BASIC
> programmers to adopt the Windows-style GUI and gain an understanding of
> the Windows user interface philosophy.

I haven't the slightest doubt that what you're doing is pushing things in
the right direction. But that's pushing it in the right direction after the
system itself has moved a long way in the wrong direction.

> The way to stem the tide of 'passive', 'gee-whiz' computing is not to
> hope, Canute-like, that RISC-OS machines will somehow supplant Windows
> PCs in schools - it ain't going to happen - but to use those ubiquitous
> Windows PCs for exactly the good educational purposes you so rightly
> propound.

I've said exactly the opposite of what you seem to assume. See the bit you
snipped:
"I see a future for RISC OS (in education and elsewhere) though not one
copying the Windows style."

> It is my claim, however immodest, that running 'BBC BASIC for Windows'
> on those PCs is a route to achieving that end.  A number of enlightened
> schools do indeed use my product, and it is approved by the Government's
> National Grid for Learning:

>  http://www.ngfl.gov.uk/search.jsp?sec=23&res=70692

If you have a Windows system then there are two good ways of improving it:
1. BBC BASIC for Windows;
2. Virtual RiscPC.

Of course it doesn't negate what I said which, in any case, was a statement
of opinion and a clarification of what was behind discussion over the last
few days.

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/19/2005 2:30:56 PM
In article <1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e043c06Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
> >    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate to be in the
> > > centre of discussions concerning RISC OS?

> > Perhaps he does.  All I'm trying to say is that he won't be a magazine
> > editor too much longer if the subscribers abandon him.

> That appears to be a supposition based on nothing other than your
> objection to John participating in discussions on c.s.a newsgroups.

It appears that you did not actually read all/most of what Jeremy has
actually been saying. Views with which I concur.

> I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him.

Odd turn of phrase that.

I didn't abandon him by cancelling my subscription. He abandoned me by
failing to meet my reasonable expectations, following his much lauded
plans for the future of Acorn Publisher. I saw every reason for
cancelling, especially so after the demise of a very fine professional
journal. I was a subscriber to Acorn Publisher only and, in my view, Qercus was an imposition on that subscription.

> Rather, the opposite
> as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the newsgroups - which
> is something all responsible editors should do.

I pass. It appears to me that his objectives are singularly unclear.

> All IMHO of course.

0
bbailey (247)
4/19/2005 2:47:48 PM
In message <4d5e0d593esee.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
          Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article
> <1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>, Ray
> Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e043c06Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C
> >    B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article
> > >    <1113900689.96f6d8b977195d861fb4487155059a94@teranews>,
> > >    Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > > Perhaps as a magazine editor he feels it appropriate
> > > > to be in the centre of discussions concerning RISC OS?
> 
> > > Perhaps he does.  All I'm trying to say is that he
> > > won't be a magazine editor too much longer if the
> > > subscribers abandon him.
> 
> > That appears to be a supposition based on nothing other
> > than your objection to John participating in discussions
> > on c.s.a newsgroups.
> 
> > I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him.
> 
> Jeremy's problem with Quercus is the appalling sub editing,
> something which is painstaking, takes up a lot of time and
> is exceedingly difficult for the person who knows the text.
> 
> Bad presentation (of the type found in Qercus these days)
> does, sadly, inevitably make one wonder if the content is
> trustworthy, or whether the content is as poorly checked
> before publication as the spelling.
> 
> For what it is worth, I too have been wondering whether the
> magazine is worth continuing, for exactly the same reasons.
> 

I have no problems with Qercus at all.

Then my spelling and grammer is not the best.

But every article is clear and well laid out, plus the meaning gets
thru.
-- 
Kev Wells  http://kevsoft.topcities.com
ICQ 238580561
Useless Fact 04 The number of islands around mainland Britain is 6289.
0
kev.wells (363)
4/19/2005 3:25:44 PM
In a mad moment - Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> mumbled :

> In article <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>,
>    Michael Gilbert <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > See my reply to Steve - or PamplinS, as his login would be.
> 
> Oh, it is.
> 
> You just don't know the domain or the password. :-)
> 
> Now if I'd said my middle name was actually my first when the accounts were
> being created I could have had PAMPLING.
> 


or even ' pam ! '   ;))

-- 
|)    [                             
|)ryn [vans            mail to - bryn@bryork.com
 
http://www.bryork.com

0
Bryn
4/19/2005 4:27:41 PM
In article <1113917367.8ce247f4b1615a7f6d875f6042c45525@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> I don't see why participation obtains less facts than by lurking.

It is rather like the committee secretary/minute taker joining in the
discussions of the committee and missing parts of the discussion. It is
often easier to see the whole by standing back a little.

I achieve many of my better results at work (and elsewhere) by mentally
standing back.[1] When I find myself too locked in to a particular mental
position and suspect I need a little more free thought I visit my favourite
"medicinal" outlet.

[1] Mind you in my case I also tend to be in the centre and a few other
spots too but they aren't going to lock me up, no sir, not me. :-)

0
4/19/2005 6:46:03 PM
In article <13bf205e4d.Bryn@Yo.rk>, Bryn Evans <d@a.invalid> wrote:
> In a mad moment - Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> mumbled
> :

> > In article <ant1806381cb9GWx@riscpc.local>, Michael Gilbert
> >    <michael@lewisgilbert.co.uk> wrote:
 
> > > See my reply to Steve - or PamplinS, as his login would be.
 
> > Oh, it is.
 
> > You just don't know the domain or the password. :-)
 
> > Now if I'd said my middle name was actually my first when the accounts
> > were being created I could have had PAMPLING.

> or even ' pam ! '   ;))

Or this version (if you read headers...) :-)

-- 
SteveP
0
spampling (1)
4/19/2005 6:49:31 PM
In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
<Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Text written by other people is often poor too.  Maybe, John feels that
> he shouldn't correct errors in other people's work, in case it annoys
> them.  Well, I'd say he should.

I've never liked to impose a style on authors - although correcting one
author did produce a negative response! ;-( Some are writing in English as
a second language but that is (I thought) understood by the reader who is
looking for explanation and insight rather than a well-crafted English
essay. Whilst I try to amend errors I also try to keep the author's
personal style; if you go up to an artist and chat about their work you
don't generally complain that the conversation was no good because they
didn't speak perfect RP. You judge it on the insight that they share with
you. In some cases the article is produced as a written version of spoken
ideas or instructions. That's deliberate. Applying 'school grammar' is not
appropriate and if you can get a flavour of the author's natural language
then that's as it should be.

Of course any mistakes are mine - and if the grammar gets in the way of
appreciation then I need to do better.

Now rather than blanket "It's no good" comments please send me details by
e-mail. I'll answer them all and, unlike the general moan, giving me
details can result in a better magazine for everyone. It'll even ensure
that my time is spent productively and that will please Jeremy no end! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/19/2005 9:23:24 PM
In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"... ;-)

Andy Pickering

-- 
********************************************************************
*                 StrongArm RiscPC / RISC OS 4.37                  *
********************************************************************
0
andy1541 (41)
4/20/2005 7:19:09 AM
In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>,
   Andy Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

> Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"...
> ;-)

Or now: "Text written by Jeremy clearly needs to be checked by someone
else..."  ;->

(...which you have done, of course!)

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/20/2005 8:42:04 AM
In article <4d5e78a11fjohn@acornusers.org>,
   John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>,
>    Andy Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

> > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"...
> > ;-)

> Or now: "Text written by Jeremy clearly needs to be checked by someone
> else..."  ;->

> (...which you have done, of course!)

or even:  "Jeremy was writing in Quercus style" :-)

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/20/2005 8:54:11 AM
John M Ward  <john@acornusers.org> wrote:

>"Hmm. Perhaps these groups should carry a Government health
>warning..."

"Warning: RISC OS has not been approved by either Bill or Tony, and
 using it may leave you feeling other computer software is inadequate."

or

"Warning: RISC OS has very low resource requirements, and ignorant
 people will continually sneer at how low the specs of your machine are."

Something along those lines?

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
4/20/2005 9:31:02 AM
In article <4d5e7b1042charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e78a11fjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Andy Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
> > >    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

> > > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"...
> > > ;-)

> > Or now: "Text written by Jeremy clearly needs to be checked by someone
> > else..."  ;->

> > (...which you have done, of course!)

> or even:  "Jeremy was writing in Quercus style" :-)

Thankfully that's nothing to do with the magazine that I edit... 

... or was that a very clever device deliberately misspelling the name and
making an oblique reference to The Grauniad?    ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/20/2005 9:56:05 AM
In article <g3j*vHyMq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
   Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> John M Ward  <john@acornusers.org> wrote:

> >"Hmm. Perhaps these groups should carry a Government health
> >warning..."

> "Warning: RISC OS has very low resource requirements, and ignorant
>  people will continually sneer at how low the specs of your machine
>  are."

Unless you run are considering running Firefox :-)

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/20/2005 10:20:31 AM
In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>, Andy
Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C
>    B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone
> > else...

> Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be
> checked"... ;-)

Sounds like pretty standard Edinburgh English to me.

This is where in a magazine the concept of House Style comes
into play.

Similarly with many other examples of more than one correct
spelling or usage: writers will use which ever they are used
to, but the magazine should stick to just one version.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/20/2005 11:55:22 AM
John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: I'm looking at how systems are used in schools - not just how they can be
: used. I might have to (slightly) amend my comment if BBC Basic was
: available on all school systems.

I wish it was!  BBC BASIC for Windows is cheap, even for
multi-user licences, and of course the evaluation version
(probably good enough for simple educational applications)
is free.  I suspect the problem is that many schools don't
know about it, despite my best efforts.

: If you have a Windows system then there are two good ways of improving it:
: 1. BBC BASIC for Windows;
: 2. Virtual RiscPC.

Again I'm thoroughly biassed, but an advantage of (1) over
(2) is that users can experiment with programming Windows
and learn about the API.  One can argue over the relative
merits of the OS's, but in terms of skills I know which
one I'd prefer on my CV if I was a school leaver!

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/
To reply by email change 'news' to my forename.
0
news1075 (671)
4/20/2005 12:43:21 PM
In article <d45ip9$97r$1@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk>, <news@rtrussell.co.uk>
wrote:
> John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> : I'm looking at how systems are used in schools - not just how they can
> : be used. I might have to (slightly) amend my comment if BBC Basic was
> : available on all school systems.

> I wish it was!  BBC BASIC for Windows is cheap, even for multi-user
> licences, and of course the evaluation version (probably good enough for
> simple educational applications) is free.  I suspect the problem is that
> many schools don't know about it, despite my best efforts.

> : If you have a Windows system then there are two good ways of improving
> : it: 1. BBC BASIC for Windows; 2. Virtual RiscPC.

> Again I'm thoroughly biassed, but an advantage of (1) over (2) is that
> users can experiment with programming Windows and learn about the API. 
> One can argue over the relative merits of the OS's, but in terms of
> skills I know which one I'd prefer on my CV if I was a school leaver!

I'm looking at the experience and understanding that is made available for
most/all pupils. The select few who will gain by having specific platform
experience detailed on their CV will gain that experience in any case. I'd
always support access to a range of platforms - and not limited to desktop
machines. "Co-operated in setting up an experimental network of Windows,
Linux & RISC OS computers" sounds like a good CV entry for a 16 year old.
;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/20/2005 1:31:08 PM
In article <4d5e7b1042charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e78a11fjohn@acornusers.org>,
>    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Andy Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
> > >    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

> > > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be
> > > checked"... ;-)

> > Or now: "Text written by Jeremy clearly needs to be checked by
> > someone else..."  ;->

> > (...which you have done, of course!)

> or even:  "Jeremy was writing in Quercus style" :-)

....Not to be confused with the almost-excellent Qercus  ;->

-- 
John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered!
Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers
0
john6145 (907)
4/20/2005 1:52:09 PM
In article <4d5e80bb0ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5e7b1042charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
>    charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e78a11fjohn@acornusers.org>,
> >    John M Ward <john@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > > In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>,
> > >    Andy Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
> > > >    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...

> > > > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"...
> > > > ;-)

> > > Or now: "Text written by Jeremy clearly needs to be checked by someone
> > > else..."  ;->

> > > (...which you have done, of course!)

> > or even:  "Jeremy was writing in Quercus style" :-)

> Thankfully that's nothing to do with the magazine that I edit... 

> .. or was that a very clever device deliberately misspelling the name and
> making an oblique reference to The Grauniad?    ;-)

You too read Private Eye :-)

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/20/2005 2:25:12 PM
In message <4d5e946b0djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>
          John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:


> I'm looking at the experience and understanding that is made available for
> most/all pupils. The select few who will gain by having specific platform
> experience detailed on their CV will gain that experience in any case. I'd
> always support access to a range of platforms - and not limited to desktop
> machines. "Co-operated in setting up an experimental network of Windows,
> Linux & RISC OS computers" sounds like a good CV entry for a 16 year old.
> ;-)
But more actual jobs are available for people with a 'CDL', which,
rightly or wrongly is a must-have for all sorts of lower-end employment in
our area "must have Standard Grade level C or above in English, Maths
(and....) and a CDL". PCPassport is also a 'valid qualification' sometimes
asked for in job adverts. 
Our school offers both along with the traditional Computing Studies courses.


You may hate this, and I personally don't think schools are only about
'training children for jobs' but it's a fact of life, especially in an 'area
of multiple deprivation' with pretty high unemployment.

Given someone with a CDL or someone who has "Co-operated in setting up an
experimental network of Windows, Linux & RISC OS computers", the former has
more *actual* job opportunities in our area. 

(Things may be different in your area, and college entry for certain
computer-based courses may have different requirements)

Slainte

Liz

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/20/2005 5:01:27 PM
On 19 Apr, Kevin Wells wrote in message
  <f3121b5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>:

> I have no problems with Qercus at all.
> 
> Then my spelling and grammer is not the best.

Those of us who /can/ spell, and like to think we can punctuate correctly
too, seem to find the mistakes very distracting.  I don't go as far as
Jeremy with his red pen, but I stopped subscribing to RiscWorld because
(amongst other things) there seemed to be a lot of confusion over the use
of apostrophes in standard English.  It would be a shame to stop buying
Qercus just for that, but it is becoming a consideration.

> But every article is clear and well laid out, plus the meaning gets
> thru.

That's also a matter of opinion...  I'm with the school of thought that
says that Acorn Publisher (in Mike Williams' days) was better at the
layout thing.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/20/2005 9:01:41 PM
In article <87aca75e4d.ri48000239@liz13.uklinux.net>, Liz
<invalid@v-liz.co.uk> wrote:
> But more actual jobs are available for people with a 'CDL', which,
> rightly or wrongly is a must-have for all sorts of lower-end employment
> in our area "must have Standard Grade level C or above in English, Maths
> (and....) and a CDL". PCPassport is also a 'valid qualification'
> sometimes asked for in job adverts. 

While the concept is quite admirable the actual questions for the ECDL
(it's a Euro thing you see) are, erm, a little limited.

Our then HoD wanted *everyone* to do the course, but the trainers didn't
want to deal with any of the techies since "simple" questions like how to
start Word were met with Start-run-"Winword.exe" and a nice smile[1]

Then there are the multiple choice questions that don't list all the
possible answers and in a couple of case we found actually listed three
wrong options and no correct one (although you'd need to be a bit of a a
tech-head to know that they were all wrong)

As to selecting people to work in the department, I persuaded them some
years ago to include a simple practical test - it isn't whether you
complete it, or even how fast, but *how* you do it.

I can see that the ECDL is useful to let employers know that the candidate
knows which keys to press for the basics and how to drive a GUI - they at
least get someone who isn't afraid of the mouse. 

[1] Crocodiles probably have something similar on their bad days.

0
4/20/2005 9:16:58 PM
On 20 Apr, Andy Pickering wrote in message
  <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>:

> In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
>    Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone else...
> 
> Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"... ;-)

Not necessarily.  Certainly in Scotland, "needs checked" is in common
spoken usage and newsgroups tend to be more informal in their language.

-- 
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

0
news1571 (3486)
4/20/2005 9:44:51 PM
In article <4d5e8ba68asee.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>, Andy
> Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C
> >    B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone
> > > else...

> > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be
> > checked"... ;-)

> Sounds like pretty standard Edinburgh English to me.

Do you think so? 

I thought it was standard Cleator Moor.

Really annoys me!

-- 
 __                               __
/  \ |      _ '   ,      _|  _   /  \  _   _  _|  _       _
|    |/\  |/ /|  / \   /  | /_\  |    / \|/ /  | / \\  //  |
\__/ |  |/|   |_/ _/   \_/|/\_,  \__/ \_/|  \_/|/\_/ \/ \_/|

decordova@ukgateway.net

The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.
0
decordova (467)
4/20/2005 9:48:09 PM
In message <4d5ec1ec14decordova@ukgateway.net>
          someone <decordova@ukgateway.net> wrote:

> In article <4d5e8ba68asee.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
>    Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <4d5e725ca1andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk>, Andy
> > Pickering <andy@surtsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <4d5e04173bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C
> > >    B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > Text written by John clearly needs checked by someone
> > > > else...
> 
> > > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be
> > > checked"... ;-)
> 
> > Sounds like pretty standard Edinburgh English to me.
> 
> Do you think so? 
> 
> I thought it was standard Cleator Moor.
> 
> Really annoys me!

Standard usage here too.
If I were doing a formal grammar exercise, I might pick it up,
but I'd certainly say or write, even formally, 'needs checked' in that
context.

Liz 

-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/20/2005 9:53:00 PM
In article <1113913736.aa9ab34ff5e0c11b4b378d126ee180e8@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> That appears to be a supposition based on nothing other than your
> objection to John participating in discussions on c.s.a newsgroups.

Ray, for several years I subscribed to AP.  When John took that over
there was an immediate drop in quality, which I assumed was largely due
to teething problems he had in taking over someone-else's magazine. Of
course some sylistic changes were to be expected and indeed it took
several issues for John to find a combination of fonts & layout that he
liked.  Personally I think there's some way to go in that respect.

But the big problem for me is that the audience for AP was made up of
people who were interested as much in the quality of presentation in AP
as the textual content itself.  When AP reviewed other publications,
there would be constructive criticism of fonts, colours and layout.  I
find much of what's in Qercus nowadays worse than anything that was
reviewed in the past.  And when I see typos and missing punctuation (eg
missing full-stops, no question marks on the end of questions) and
inconsistencies (eg "watercolour" and "water colour" in the same
paragraph) these say to me that there is not enough attention to detail
in the way the magazine is produced.  It's just ordinary now, rather
than special.

Were you an AP subscriber?   What do you think of the present magazine
compared with the previous one?  

There's another important aspect to this.  Most of what was published
in AP wasn't the "usual" regurgitation of announcements, interesting
threads on usenet/mail-lists etc that you also saw in AU, Archive etc..
Most of that material is of little interest to me, no matter which
magazine it's in, because I've already read it on the 'net.  AP was
interesting because it focussed on people using Acorn machines and
software to run their businesses, and showed that high quality product
was possible even if you didn't use better known machines/software. I
don't think I could impress anyone by showing them an edition of
Qercus, whereas AP was very impressive.
 

John also took over AU.  AU also had pretty bad production qualities.
I'd say that the parts of Qercus that now contain the sorts of things
that AU once contained are improved, but that's only half the Qercus
market.  (Or maybe it isn't; only John will know the proportions of his
subscribers who came from each previous publication.)

> I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him. Rather, the
> opposite as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the
> newsgroups - which is something all responsible editors should do.

I've no objection to John asking questions on the newsgroups or
elsewhere, but it seems to me - and I'm certain to other people - that
he spends much too long on usenet instead of attending to things that
matter to, if not the whole audience for Qercus, at least the part that
previously bought AP.

I know I'm not alone in thinking this, having had emails from other
AP-subscribers with the same views as me.

I also think that there's a difference between ascertaining facts, and
getting embroiled in arguments.  It's inevitable that each time John
gets into a long-running thread, he's going to annoy a few of the other
people involved in the thread.  That's been obvious in this thread, and
certainly in the FireFox one, and quite frequently in other threads. 

That's a risk for a magazine editor who depends on some of these people
for his income.  Think how often you see the editors of the other RO
publications taking an active part in usenet.  Maybe John sees their
absence as an opportunity for him, and to some extent I'd probably
agree with that, but he needs to be careful.  In his shoes I'd be a bit
more circumspect about voicing strong opinions on usenet simply because
it's more or less inevitable that some people will disagree.  You need
to be good at doing that if you don't want to alienate customers at the
same time.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/20/2005 9:54:05 PM
In article <f3121b5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
   Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> I have no problems with Qercus at all.

> Then my spelling and grammer is not the best.

Hmmm, two mistakes in one sentence...   ;-)

> But every article is clear and well laid out,

Have you seen p10 in issue 274?

Maybe you're an ex-AU buyer, rather than an ex-AP one?

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/20/2005 9:59:36 PM
During the course of this discussion, Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
 in message <4d5ebf1124steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> While the concept is quite admirable the actual questions for the ECDL
> (it's a Euro thing you see) are, erm, a little limited.
> 
My employer paid for me to do the ECDL. They were introducing public
access PCs to the libraries at the time, and felt that staff should
have some knowledge, in order to help the public.  I found it to be a
completely worthless qualification. It electronic tests were impossible
to fail. I came to the conclusion that the "marking process" was the
computer deciding how many marks out of twenty to deduct from 100, so
as to make it look even vaguely realistic.

-- 
"Like shooting flies with  a laser cannon, the aims a bit tricky, but
 it certainly deals with the flies."     -     Lord Miles Vorkosigan.
From "Komarr" by Lois McMaster Bujold
To read my Web Log visit http://www.gardd-lelog.org.uk
0
jwcr (78)
4/20/2005 11:14:55 PM
In message <4d5ec2f82bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>
          Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <f3121b5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
>    Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> > I have no problems with Qercus at all.
> 
> > Then my spelling and grammer is not the best.
> 
> Hmmm, two mistakes in one sentence...   ;-)

Only 2 thats not bad for me, at least I'm honest. :)
> 
> > But every article is clear and well laid out,
> 
> Have you seen p10 in issue 274?

Yes.
> 
> Maybe you're an ex-AU buyer, rather than an ex-AP one?
> 

Both.
-- 
Kev Wells  http://kevsoft.topcities.com
ICQ 238580561
I am a lesbian trapped in a big ugly males biker's body.
0
kev.wells (363)
4/20/2005 11:54:16 PM
In article <b9ddc95e4d.jwcr@arce81.dsl.pipex.co.uk>,
   John Campbell Rees <jwcr@gardd-lelog.org.uk> wrote:
> During the course of this discussion, Steven Pampling <steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>,
>  in message <4d5ebf1124steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> > While the concept is quite admirable the actual questions for the ECDL
> > (it's a Euro thing you see) are, erm, a little limited.
> > 
> My employer paid for me to do the ECDL. They were introducing public
> access PCs to the libraries at the time, and felt that staff should
> have some knowledge, in order to help the public.  I found it to be a
> completely worthless qualification. It electronic tests were impossible
> to fail. I came to the conclusion that the "marking process" was the
> computer deciding how many marks out of twenty to deduct from 100, so
> as to make it look even vaguely realistic.

I did say:
>> I can see that the ECDL is useful to let employers know that the
>> candidate knows which keys to press for the basics

You can't really say that it is less useful than the basic literacy test.

0
4/21/2005 6:17:35 AM
In article <ad9ec15e4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be checked"...
> > ;-)

> Not necessarily.  Certainly in Scotland, "needs checked" is in
> common spoken usage and newsgroups tend to be more informal in
> their language.

Trouble is, I simply can't get children in my class to write it more
formally ... and they have their SATs next month!

:o(

-- 
 __                               __
/  \ |      _ '   ,      _|  _   /  \  _   _  _|  _       _
|    |/\  |/ /|  / \   /  | /_\  |    / \|/ /  | / \\  //  |
\__/ |  |/|   |_/ _/   \_/|/\_,  \__/ \_/|  \_/|/\_/ \/ \_/|

decordova@ukgateway.net

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
0
decordova (467)
4/21/2005 6:53:06 AM
In article <4d5ef3d00ddecordova@ukgateway.net>, Chris de
Cordova <decordova@ukgateway.net> wrote:
> In article
> <ad9ec15e4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
> Fryatt <news@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > > Presumably that should have been "checking" or "to be
> > > checked"... ;-)

> > Not necessarily.  Certainly in Scotland, "needs
> > checked" is in common spoken usage and newsgroups tend
> > to be more informal in their language.

> Trouble is, I simply can't get children in my class to
> write it more formally ... and they have their SATs next
> month!

This is IMHO part of a significant problem that native
speakers of English have - the vast majority do not seem to
be able to grasp the difference between spoken and written
forms of the language.

To some extent my feelings are influenced by my German-Swiss
background - there the language kids are taught to write in
school bares only a passing resemblance to the way people
speak.

I believe that a similar situation occurs in Norway.

Here, though, most people assume that if something is
correct spoken English, then it is correct written English.

I am old enough to have been taught, for example, /never/ to
use elided forms in written English, unless writing
dialogue.

Thus 
alright=bad - all right=good
can't=bad - cannot=good
I'll=bad - I shall=good
don't=bad - do not=good

and so on.

These days, though, all these elided forms are in common
written use, making it very difficult to explain that "needs
checked" is fine when speaking, but "needs checking" should
be used in formal written English.

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/21/2005 8:53:56 AM
In article <4d5ec27706Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[snipped rant re JC and Qercus, full of spelling and grammar errors]

> > I see no reason why subscribers should abandon him. Rather, the
> > opposite as he appears to be trying to ascertain facts via the
> > newsgroups - which is something all responsible editors should do.

> I've no objection to John asking questions on the newsgroups or
> elsewhere, but it seems to me - and I'm certain to other people - that
> he spends much too long on usenet instead of attending to things that
> matter to, if not the whole audience for Qercus, at least the part that
> previously bought AP.

I just can't get my head around someone trying to tell someone else that
they consider that they spend too much time on usenet. It's none of their
damn business how any individual divides their time.

As a Qercus reader you have absolutely no right to try and dictate to the
editor as to what his working hours should be and how he should do his
job. Maybe you have too much time on your hands.

Perhaps you would like to pass the same criticism at other posters who
are engaged in all manner of work producing RISC OS goodies, like
browsers and other soft and hardware. Perhaps they shouldn't be writing
usenet articles, but getting on with productive work instead.

BTW, when I were a lad in the '60s ... one of the tasks set us once was
to find a mistake in a national newspaper and bring it to school. Of a
class of thirty plus, there were only a couple brought in. Newspapers
just didn't make mistakes.

Nowadays, it doesn't matter what newspaper you read, it's easy to spot
several mistakes every day. And yes, I include the broadsheets in that.
All edited by long standing professionals.

Get real.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/21/2005 9:44:30 AM
In article <1114077097.6836affea68c668e537d03a2c6577c7f@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> BTW, when I were a lad in the '60s ... one of the tasks set us once was
> to find a mistake in a national newspaper and bring it to school. Of a
> class of thirty plus, there were only a couple brought in. Newspapers
> just didn't make mistakes.

When I were a lad in the fifties, I learnt to proof read using the
Liverpool Echo, which was widely thought of as a suitable vehicle, being
full of typos and errors.

I don't believe it's changed much since, either, though it isn't a
'national'.

I /was/ reading the Echo at four and five, though, so I don't think that
makes me any older than you!

John

-- 
John Williams, Wirral, Merseyside, UK - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject
for reliable contact! Who is John Williams? http://www.picindex.info/author/ 
Send your spam to: sales@electronicsCHINA.com 
0
UCEbin (2771)
4/21/2005 10:15:02 AM
In message <4d5efec1f1see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
          Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

 [snip]

> school bares only a passing resemblance 
> I believe that a similar situation occurs in Norway.

I'd have thought it would have been too chilly there:-))
-- 
Ian Wolfe.
Linlithgow. Birthplace of Mary, Queen of Scots.
Blessed are the peacemakers.

0
ian81 (117)
4/21/2005 11:47:14 AM
In article <4d5efec1f1see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

[Snip]

> This is IMHO part of a significant problem that native
> speakers of English have - the vast majority do not seem to
> be able to grasp the difference between spoken and written
> forms of the language.

[Snip]

However, if you write "formal" English in your correspondence, the result
can be very stilted.  Having spent a lot of my working lfe writing both
letters and reports, I learned, from external courses,  that "write as you
speak" made my output much more friendly and readable.  I also found that
the best way to produce this was to dictate to a secretary; it stopped my
language become to pompous and stilted.  eg I might, if writing, say "At
this moment in time" but when speaking I would say "now".

One of the difficulties in dealing with a language of which one is not a
native speaker, is that you are taught "rules" as known by ones teacher.  If
that teacher is not a native speaker then those are the rules that the
teaher learned some time in the past.  Thus it may be that the student's
knowledge of the language is not what is in current use.

0
charles7889 (2007)
4/21/2005 12:04:02 PM
In article <4d5efec1f1see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> I am old enough to have been taught, for example, /never/ to
> use elided forms in written English, unless writing
> dialogue.

> Thus 
> alright=bad - all right=good
> can't=bad - cannot=good
> I'll=bad - I shall=good
> don't=bad - do not=good

> and so on.

I too was taught exactly the same. But why not elide?

Every* accepted advance in the English language has been done by people
breaking rules. Most was done by Shakespere. Whilst I don't claim that
breaking rules makes you into Shakespere 2 I do want to question the rules
and the reasons behind them. In my lifetime it has been a rule that radio
and TV presenters in the UK should only speak a very limited form of
English. That rule is now breaking down into a more sensible version that
accepts many more varieties of English as long as listeners can understand
what is said. The same is happening in print. Some (like you and me) who
were taught English grammar rules based on a supposed form of Latin grammar
may get hot under the collar - but we have to return to the questions, "Why
does this rule exist? Does it make better sense to replace it with a rule
that has a real foundation?" A BBC English that reflects the diversity of
the UK makes sense - as long as speakers can be understood. Written English
that gives a glimpse of the writer's background, through the words and
expressions used, makes more sense than forcing everyone through the same
'standard English' sieve.

*exaggeration for effect - but surely Shakespere, Johnson and Shaw are
enough to qualify for 'all'? ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/21/2005 12:42:02 PM
On 21 Apr 2005  Ian Wolfe <ian@jwolfe.f2s.com> wrote:

>In message <4d5efec1f1see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>
>          Russell Hafter <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> school bares only a passing resemblance 
>> I believe that a similar situation occurs in Norway.
>
>I'd have thought it would have been too chilly there:-))

They're pretty hardy, these Vikings! We are going on the Norwegian
Coastal Boat in three weeks, and I'll keep a sharp lookout for any bare
Norse >;-)>

With best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter   \   /                 \     Prestbury, Cheltenham,  Glos. GL52
Anne     \ / __            __  \                              England.
and       / /  \ | | |\ | /  _  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/pnyoung
family   /  \__/ \_/ | \| \__/   \_____________ pnyoung@argonet.co.uk.
0
pnyoung (134)
4/21/2005 12:44:40 PM
In article <fb77cd5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
   Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In message <4d5ec2f82bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>
>           Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <f3121b5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
> >    Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> > > But every article is clear and well laid out,
> > 
> > Have you seen p10 in issue 274?

> Yes.

And you still think that every article is well laid out?  Even John
agreed that this page is bad.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/21/2005 12:45:56 PM
On 21 Apr 2005  charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 [snip]

>One of the difficulties in dealing with a language of which one is not a
>native speaker, is that you are taught "rules" as known by ones teacher.  If
>that teacher is not a native speaker then those are the rules that the
>teacher learned some time in the past.  Thus it may be that the
>student's knowledge of the language is not what is in current use.

Or plain incorrect in Standard English. When I worked in Ethiopia years
ago, the nurses spoke very good English, but had mostly been taught by
Indians. One of the things I tried in vain to correct was their
invariable use of the phrase "no any". I tried to tell them that it
should be "not any", but was always told that that was what the teacher
had told them. Perhaps it's standard (and therefore effectively correct)
in Indian English? I don't know.

With best wishes,

Peter.

-- 
Peter   \   /                 \     Prestbury, Cheltenham,  Glos. GL52
Anne     \ / __            __  \                              England.
and       / /  \ | | |\ | /  _  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/pnyoung
family   /  \__/ \_/ | \| \__/   \_____________ pnyoung@argonet.co.uk.
0
pnyoung (134)
4/21/2005 12:51:24 PM
In article <1114077097.6836affea68c668e537d03a2c6577c7f@teranews>,
   Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> I just can't get my head around someone trying to tell someone else
> that they consider that they spend too much time on usenet. It's none
> of their damn business how any individual divides their time.

That's a fair point, I suppose.  But I'm one of John's customers and
I'm not happy with the quality of product I buy from him.  The quality
has dropped.  Am I not allowed to comment on that?  Why shouldn't I say
that I think he should spend his time improving the magazine's quality,
rather than arguing with people on usenet?

> As a Qercus reader you have absolutely no right to try and dictate to
> the editor as to what his working hours should be and how he should
> do his job.

Why not?  I subscribed to a publication which he took over, and then
the quality dropped.  Did I not have a right to expect the quality to
be maintained?  Would you not accept complaints from your customers? 

I don't care whether he spends one hour a day or twenty-four hours a
day on Qercus.  I care about the result.

> Maybe you have too much time on your hands.

I think that you, knowing I'm long-term sick, shouldn't have said that.
I wish I wasn't in the position of having a great deal of time. It's
not my choice.  I do however choose how to spend my limited energy. 

Also, I don't really see the relevance of the remark.  If I had very
limited time I'd still be unhappy about the quality problems.


> Perhaps you would like to pass the same criticism at other posters
> who are engaged in all manner of work producing RISC OS goodies, like
> browsers and other soft and hardware. Perhaps they shouldn't be
> writing usenet articles, but getting on with productive work instead.

If I was buying a product or service from such people and I thought
their product quality was poor, then yes, I would do so.  

Something else is interesting about this discussion of usenet articles
vv productive work.  Not so long ago I made a detailed reply to one of
your usenet posts where you'd asked whether/how something could be
achieved [in the "Moving contents of a folder" thread].  You never
thanked me for that nor made any comment about it. I've emailed you
twice asking if the info was of any use to you, as I normally do
whenever I try to help someone, so that if there's follow-up questions
you feel I'm interested. You've not replied to those emails either.  My
recollection is that this is not the first time you've failed to respond
when I've tried to help you.

Also, a while ago I took over the job of maintainer for AntiSpam. I
found that because of my poor health I was unable to make a big enough
commitment to it - mainly because of problems concentrating - and I had
to withdraw.

> BTW, when I were a lad in the '60s ... one of the tasks set us once
> was to find a mistake in a national newspaper and bring it to school.
> Of a class of thirty plus, there were only a couple brought in.
> Newspapers just didn't make mistakes.

> Nowadays, it doesn't matter what newspaper you read, it's easy to
> spot several mistakes every day. And yes, I include the broadsheets
> in that. All edited by long standing professionals.

And your point is what, precisely?

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
4/21/2005 1:11:28 PM
In article <4d5f167429Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>,
   Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> And your point is what, precisely?

That sending an e-mail to the editor of Qercus detailing what you think are
spg errors in a recent issue might be more productive use of your time? ;-)

We're all open to criticism of one sort or another - and BTW my present
excuse for a quick lurk and comment is that I'm sat recovering from lumping
a dozen boxes of magazines around. Heavy stuff!

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
4/21/2005 2:45:52 PM
In article <4d5f1f1882john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
<john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4d5f167429Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
>    <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > And your point is what, precisely?

> That sending an e-mail to the editor of Qercus detailing what you think
> are spg errors in a recent issue might be more productive use of your
> time? ;-)

> We're all open to criticism of one sort or another - and BTW my present
> excuse for a quick lurk and comment is that I'm sat recovering from
> lumping a dozen boxes of magazines around. Heavy stuff!

You're not allowed to do that - you should be delivering them :-)

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
4/21/2005 3:15:46 PM
In message <1114097338.f593a65a4f3285dd2bf7654d4ba0e4b9@teranews>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4d5f1f1882john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell
> <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4d5f167429Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>, Jeremy C B Nicoll
> >    <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > And your point is what, precisely?
> 
> > That sending an e-mail to the editor of Qercus detailing what you think
> > are spg errors in a recent issue might be more productive use of your
> > time? ;-)
> 
> > We're all open to criticism of one sort or another - and BTW my present
> > excuse for a quick lurk and comment is that I'm sat recovering from
> > lumping a dozen boxes of magazines around. Heavy stuff!
> 
> You're not allowed to do that - you should be delivering them :-)

Not to mention "I'm sat"!!!
(That's *not* standard usage hereabouts, and jars with me, but I know it's
perfectly normal usage 'dan saith')

Slainte

Liz
-- 
Virtual Liz now at http://www.v-liz.com
Kenya; Tanzania; Namibia; India; Seychelles; Galapagos
"I speak of Africa and golden joys"
0
invalid6449 (509)
4/21/2005 3:48:47 PM
In article <4d5f1047a3charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> One of the difficulties in dealing with a language of
> which one is not a native speaker, is that you are taught
> "rules" as known by ones teacher.  If that teacher is not
> a native speaker then those are the rules that the teaher
> learned some time in the past.  Thus it may be that the
> student's knowledge of the language is not what is in
> current use.

True.

But this has nothing to do with the point I was trying to
make.

Which was that in some countries the language that people
speak and the language that they write bear only a passing
similarity to one another.

eg in Switzerland:

in some parts of the country the spoken Swiss German for
"I have been"

can be represented by "i' bi' g'si" or "i' bi' g'sy"

while what they learn to write once they go to school is
"ich bin gewesen".

People do not write the way they speak (because if they did,
few people would be able to understand what they had
written.)

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/21/2005 4:53:37 PM
In article <4d5f13c22bjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>,
   John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > Thus 
> > alright=bad - all right=good
> > can't=bad - cannot=good
> > I'll=bad - I shall=good
> > don't=bad - do not=good

> > and so on.

> I too was taught exactly the same. But why not elide?

Two reasons I can think of to start

Does written "I'll" represent "I shall" or "I will"?

It helps people to understand the difference between
"you're" and "your" - as in "If you keep doing that your
going to get a black eye"

-- 
Russell

http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Holiday specialists for Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, bits of France...
  Tel 01946 861652                     Fax 01946 862085
0
see.sig7767 (1966)
4/21/2005 4:57:19 PM
In message <4d5f141dd7Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>
          Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <fb77cd5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
>    Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> > In message <4d5ec2f82bJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>
> >           Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <f3121b5e4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
> > >    Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > But every article is clear and well laid out,
> > > 
> > > Have you seen p10 in issue 274?
> 
> > Yes.
> 
> And you still think that every article is well laid out?  Even John
> agreed that this page is bad.
> 

It's not the best but I have seen a lot worse.

In a motorcycle mag there was once black text on a dark background.
-- 
Kev Wells  http://kevsoft.topcities.com
ICQ 238580561
24 hours in a day and 24 beers in a case. Hmmm..
0
kev.wells (363)
4/21/2005 5:00:42 PM
In article <1114077097.6836affea68c668e537d03a2c6577c7f@teranews>, Ray
Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>  Of a class of thirty plus, there were only a couple brought in.
> Newspapers just didn't make mistakes.

or children didn't do their homework - just like today!

Rosemary


-- 
Rosemary Miskin    ZFC LVIII  miskin@argonet.co.uk
Loughborough, UK              http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/miskin

0
miskin (141)
4/21/2005 5:29:57 PM
In article <a9702b5f4d.Kevin@pipex.com>,
   Kevin Wells <kev.wells@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In a motorcycle mag there was once black text on a dark background.

If we are discussing such things I'd might as well make the most of it. ;-)

Two future possibilities in Qercus:

1. A series on games. I won't say what but, in the past, AU tended to print
such things on a dark background. I don't