f



2GS ROM1 doesn't see 3.5" floppy disc drives.

So I finally purchased a 2GS after wanting one for years. I arrived fine. N=
o problems with it. Diagnostic self test ran with no errors. Buy 2 5.25" un=
i disks and they work great. Buy 2 3.5" disk drives A9M0106. System does no=
t see them.
I connect the 2 5.25" disk drives, they work great. 3.5" disk drive just si=
ts there with the light on. Connect 5.25" to 3.5", system just hangs at boo=
t up. can't get into control panel. Online and on the doc's for the 3.5" dr=
ives, it says they must be first in line to the computer then the 5.25" dri=
ves.
What settings for the control panel do I use? Slots are as follows: 1 print=
er, 2 modem, 3 built in text display, 4 mouse, 5 smart port, 6 disk port, 7=
 your card, startup slot: scan.

I've tried every thing to get he 3.5" to be recognized. I have 2 drives. ch=
ecked them both on my Mac Classic. they work fine there. 2GS is ROM 1.
no matter what settings I use, I can't get the system to see the 3.25". I"v=
e tried double density disks and the system just doesn't want to see them.

Change settings on the control panel bottom from scan to slot 6 as boot dri=
ve.
Still no changes. I remove the 1 MB RAM card, No changes.
Take the 3.5" drives to my mac classic. It formats the disks fine on both d=
rives.

Can anyone suggest how I can troubleshoot this further?=20
0
dougenstein66
11/9/2014 10:56:28 PM
comp.sys.apple2 11066 articles. 3 followers. antoine.vignau (1077) is leader. Post Follow

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On 11/09/2014 05:56 PM, dougenstein66@gmail.com wrote:

> So I finally purchased a 2GS after wanting one for years. I arrived fine.
> No problems with it. Diagnostic self test ran with no errors. Buy 2 5.25"
> uni disks and they work great. Buy 2 3.5" disk drives A9M0106. System does
> not see them. I connect the 2 5.25" disk drives, they work great. 3.5" disk
> drive just sits there with the light on. Connect 5.25" to 3.5", system just
> hangs at boot up. can't get into control panel. Online and on the doc's for
> the 3.5" drives, it says they must be first in line to the computer then
> the 5.25" drives. What settings for the control panel do I use? Slots are
> as follows: 1 printer, 2 modem, 3 built in text display, 4 mouse, 5 smart
> port, 6 disk port, 7 your card, startup slot: scan.
>
> I've tried every thing to get he 3.5" to be recognized. I have 2 drives.
> checked them both on my Mac Classic. they work fine there. 2GS is ROM 1. no
> matter what settings I use, I can't get the system to see the 3.25". I"ve
> tried double density disks and the system just doesn't want to see them.
>
> Change settings on the control panel bottom from scan to slot 6 as boot
> drive. Still no changes. I remove the 1 MB RAM card, No changes. Take the
> 3.5" drives to my mac classic. It formats the disks fine on both drives.

You probably don't want to hear this, but it sounds like a toasted IWM chip. 
I have a machine here that behaves the same way.


0
Steven
11/10/2014 1:28:43 AM
On Sunday, 9 November 2014 16:56:30 UTC-6, Doug  wrote:
> So I finally purchased a 2GS after wanting one for years. I arrived fine.=
 No problems with it. Diagnostic self test ran with no errors. Buy 2 5.25" =
uni disks and they work great. Buy 2 3.5" disk drives A9M0106. System does =
not see them.
> I connect the 2 5.25" disk drives, they work great. 3.5" disk drive just =
sits there with the light on. Connect 5.25" to 3.5", system just hangs at b=
oot up. can't get into control panel. Online and on the doc's for the 3.5" =
drives, it says they must be first in line to the computer then the 5.25" d=
rives.
> What settings for the control panel do I use? Slots are as follows: 1 pri=
nter, 2 modem, 3 built in text display, 4 mouse, 5 smart port, 6 disk port,=
 7 your card, startup slot: scan.
>=20
> I've tried every thing to get he 3.5" to be recognized. I have 2 drives. =
checked them both on my Mac Classic. they work fine there. 2GS is ROM 1.
> no matter what settings I use, I can't get the system to see the 3.25". I=
"ve tried double density disks and the system just doesn't want to see them=
..
>=20
> Change settings on the control panel bottom from scan to slot 6 as boot d=
rive.
> Still no changes. I remove the 1 MB RAM card, No changes.
> Take the 3.5" drives to my mac classic. It formats the disks fine on both=
 drives.
>=20
> Can anyone suggest how I can troubleshoot this further?



If you are into the DIY fix it

http://www.apple2.org/35Drv/index.html
0
gids
11/10/2014 2:40:24 AM
I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and hea=
d select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show some =
test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to see if they=
 are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk and TP15=
3 for hdsel.
0
Rob
11/10/2014 10:02:58 AM
On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:

> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to see if
> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk and
> TP153 for hdsel.

I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is that 
one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than supporting a Disk 
3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or glue logic - to blame.


0
Steven
11/10/2014 2:40:08 PM
On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>
>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>> see if
>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>> and
>> TP153 for hdsel.
>
> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
> glue logic - to blame.

Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard 
diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?

0
David
11/10/2014 2:58:55 PM
On Monday, November 10, 2014 6:58:55 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> > On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
> >
> >> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk an=
d
> >> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics sh=
ow
> >> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
> >> see if
> >> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
> >> and
> >> TP153 for hdsel.
> >
> > I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know i=
s
> > that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
> > supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
> > glue logic - to blame.
>=20
> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard=20
> diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?

My 2GS passes the onboard test. So this IWM or VGC chip is on the motherboa=
rd of the GS or the floppy drive? Like I mentioned, both drives work fine o=
n my Mac Classic. So I don't think it's the floppy drives. Where are these =
chips on the 2GS and how hard is it to obtain them? I know how to solder an=
d if I got the chips, I could probably depending on difficult it would be r=
eplace them if it was possible.
Any way of testing this? Any other suggestions?
I may just wait for a CFFA3000 card. Anyone heard on when these are going t=
o be redone again?

0
Doug
11/10/2014 6:42:13 PM
On 11/10/2014 1:42 PM, Doug wrote:
> On Monday, November 10, 2014 6:58:55 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>>>> see if
>>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>>>> and
>>>> TP153 for hdsel.
>>>
>>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
>>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
>>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
>>> glue logic - to blame.
>>
>> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard
>> diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
>
> My 2GS passes the onboard test. So this IWM or VGC chip is on the motherboard of the GS or the floppy drive? Like I mentioned, both drives work fine on my Mac Classic. So I don't think it's the floppy drives. Where are these chips on the 2GS and how hard is it to obtain them? I know how to solder and if I got the chips, I could probably depending on difficult it would be replace them if it was possible.

....which is why I asked if Mr. Hirsch's machine also passes the tests. 
That would support my hypothesis that the tests don't catch these failures.

You don't want to replace those chips - you'd have to harvest them off 
of another GS mobo.  By the time you've done that, you've bought frozen 
toast only to have to put the frozen toast in the toaster... just buy 
another GS machine and be done with it.

> Any way of testing this? Any other suggestions?

Nope.

> I may just wait for a CFFA3000 card. Anyone heard on when these are going to be redone again?

Be sure to get on Rich's mailing list.  Only he knows for sure.  Link is 
on his order page:
http://shop.dreher.net/
0
David
11/10/2014 7:58:46 PM
On Monday, November 10, 2014 11:58:46 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> On 11/10/2014 1:42 PM, Doug wrote:
> > On Monday, November 10, 2014 6:58:55 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> >> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> >>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk =
and
> >>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics =
show
> >>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
> >>>> see if
> >>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5di=
sk
> >>>> and
> >>>> TP153 for hdsel.
> >>>
> >>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know=
 is
> >>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
> >>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
> >>> glue logic - to blame.
> >>
> >> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard
> >> diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
> >
> > My 2GS passes the onboard test. So this IWM or VGC chip is on the mothe=
rboard of the GS or the floppy drive? Like I mentioned, both drives work fi=
ne on my Mac Classic. So I don't think it's the floppy drives. Where are th=
ese chips on the 2GS and how hard is it to obtain them? I know how to solde=
r and if I got the chips, I could probably depending on difficult it would =
be replace them if it was possible.
>=20
> ...which is why I asked if Mr. Hirsch's machine also passes the tests.=20
> That would support my hypothesis that the tests don't catch these failure=
s.
>=20
> You don't want to replace those chips - you'd have to harvest them off=20
> of another GS mobo.  By the time you've done that, you've bought frozen=
=20
> toast only to have to put the frozen toast in the toaster... just buy=20
> another GS machine and be done with it.
>=20
> > Any way of testing this? Any other suggestions?
>=20
> Nope.
>=20
> > I may just wait for a CFFA3000 card. Anyone heard on when these are goi=
ng to be redone again?
>=20
> Be sure to get on Rich's mailing list.  Only he knows for sure.  Link is=
=20
> on his order page:
> http://shop.dreher.net/

I don't want to drop another $50 - $100 on the same issue. No one locally i=
n Vancouver Canada has any.
Yes, I'm on the list for the CFFA3000 card.
0
Doug
11/10/2014 8:52:08 PM
In article <6be1ed44-2f65-4310-aa2d-eb16e4845c21@googlegroups.com>,
 Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, November 10, 2014 6:58:55 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> > On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> > > On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
> > >
> > >> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
> > >> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
> > >> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
> > >> see if
> > >> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
> > >> and
> > >> TP153 for hdsel.
> > >
> > > I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
> > > that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
> > > supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
> > > glue logic - to blame.
> > 
> > Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard 
> > diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
> 
> My 2GS passes the onboard test. So this IWM or VGC chip is on the motherboard 
> of the GS or the floppy drive? Like I mentioned, both drives work fine on my 
> Mac Classic. So I don't think it's the floppy drives. Where are these chips 
> on the 2GS and how hard is it to obtain them? I know how to solder and if I 
> got the chips, I could probably depending on difficult it would be replace 
> them if it was possible.
> Any way of testing this? Any other suggestions?
> I may just wait for a CFFA3000 card. Anyone heard on when these are going to 
> be redone again?

IWM (equals "Integrated Woz Machine" - for most purposes, if you think 
of it at all, you can consider it to be a disk controller card (among 
other things) on a single chip) is on the motherboard. Good luck finding 
one anywhere but on the motherboard of another GS. The VGC Chip is a 
support chip for it (among other functions), also on the MB. Neither are 
"do-it-yourselfer" friendly - The IWM is a BGA (Ball Grid Array) chip, 
and if I remember right, the VGC is the same - It's *POSSIBLE* to 
de/re-solder BGA chips, but even with the right jigs and tools, it ain't 
much fun, and it's definitely not something for anybody but someone with 
LOTS of know-how and some specialized tools to attempt. 

That having been said, back around that time period, there were (at 
least) two flavors of 3.5" drives sold by Apple. One was aimed at the 
then new-to-the-world Mac, and simply wouldn't work with a //e unless 
you got a special controller card from a third party to go with it. 
(Later, Apple would offer a card to make it work, but not at first) The 
other came with a card that would make it work in a //e, but nothing you 
could do with it would make it work with a Mac. The controller cards 
*WERE NOT* interchangeable between the two types of drive. The type that 
would work with a //e would also work on the GS. The "Mac-targeted" one 
might or might not have worked with a GS - I never tried. 

I can't remember how to verify which was which, and worse, I can't 
remember if both would work with the GS, or only one or the other. 

Any prayer of finding an "absolutely known to be functional with a GS" 
drive to check?

-- 
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
0
Don
11/10/2014 9:42:37 PM
On 11/10/2014 4:42 PM, Don Bruder wrote:
> Any prayer of finding an "absolutely known to be functional with a GS"
> drive to check?

All has been revealed to Doug here:
http://www.vintagemacworld.com/drives.html
this same thread has been going on in several other fora.  He's got the 
right drives.
0
David
11/10/2014 10:18:15 PM
On 11/10/2014 09:58 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>>> see if
>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>>> and
>>> TP153 for hdsel.
>>
>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
>> glue logic - to blame.
>
> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard diagnostics.
> Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?

That isn't going to be quick to check.  I'd have to swap the mb back into a 
machine and it's somewhat inconvenient to do that at the moment.




0
Steven
11/10/2014 10:38:35 PM
Don Bruder <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote:

> In article <6be1ed44-2f65-4310-aa2d-eb16e4845c21@googlegroups.com>,
>  Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Monday, November 10, 2014 6:58:55 AM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> > > On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> > > > On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk
> > > >> and head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The
> > > >> schematics show some test points for each of these, maybe you could
> > > >> measure these to see if they are correct. The schematic I am
> > > >> looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk and TP153 for hdsel.
> > > >
> > > > I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
> > > > that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
> > > > supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
> > > > glue logic - to blame.
> > > 
> > > Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard 
> > > diagnostics.  Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
> > 
> > My 2GS passes the onboard test. So this IWM or VGC chip is on the
> > motherboard of the GS or the floppy drive? Like I mentioned, both drives
> > work fine on my Mac Classic. So I don't think it's the floppy drives.
> > Where are these chips on the 2GS and how hard is it to obtain them? I
> > know how to solder and if I got the chips, I could probably depending on
> > difficult it would be replace them if it was possible.
> > Any way of testing this? Any other suggestions?
> > I may just wait for a CFFA3000 card. Anyone heard on when these are going to
> > be redone again?
> 
> IWM (equals "Integrated Woz Machine" - for most purposes, if you think
> of it at all, you can consider it to be a disk controller card (among
> other things) on a single chip) is on the motherboard. Good luck finding
> one anywhere but on the motherboard of another GS. The VGC Chip is a 
> support chip for it (among other functions),

A rather major "other function" is implied by its name: "Video Graphics
Controller". It implements Super Hi-res display mode and drives the RGB
output. The 3.5" drive support (basically a couple of digital outputs)
was just a minor detail which happened to be easiest to include in that
chip, since the IWM was already in use and it didn't have any spare
outputs. (The Mac 512K, Plus, etc. uses a general purpose I/O chip - the
VIA - for its head select output.)

> also on the MB. Neither are "do-it-yourselfer" friendly - The IWM is a BGA
> (Ball Grid Array) chip, and if I remember right, the VGC is the same -
> It's *POSSIBLE* to de/re-solder BGA chips, but even with the right jigs
> and tools, it ain't much fun, and it's definitely not something for
> anybody but someone with LOTS of know-how and some specialized tools to
> attempt.

The VGC was socketed on the ROM 00 IIgs, and one of the batches was
faulty (flickering or pink effects in 80-column text and/or monochrome
double hi-res mode); it was replaced at the same time as the ROM 01
upgrade. I don't know offhand if the VGC was still socketed after Apple
started shipping the IIgs with ROM 01.

The VGC is soldered to the motherboard in my ROM 3 IIgs.

> That having been said, back around that time period, there were (at 
> least) two flavors of 3.5" drives sold by Apple. One was aimed at the
> then new-to-the-world Mac, and simply wouldn't work with a //e unless
> you got a special controller card from a third party to go with it.

That is the Apple 3.5 Drive (A9M0106 - the "A9M" implying it was both an
Apple II and Mac peripheral), which is the one Doug has. It works
natively on the IIgs (or should if the IIgs wasn't faulty).
 
> (Later, Apple would offer a card to make it work, but not at first)

That is the "Apple II 3.5 Disk Controller Card", a.k.a. the "SuperDrive
Card". It can be used in a IIe or IIgs

> The other came with a card that would make it work in a //e, but nothing
> you could do with it would make it work with a Mac.

That drive is the UniDisk 3.5 (A2M2053 - the "A2M" implying it was a
peripheral for the Apple II family, not intended for use on the Mac).
The controller is the "Apple 3.5 Floppy Disk Drive Inteface Card",
a.k.a. "Liron".

The UniDisk 3.5 was actually the same mechanism as Apple's other 800K
drives, but it has an integrated controller with its own 65C02, and uses
SmartPort to talk to the host computer, whereas the Apple 3.5 Drive was
controlled directly from the host computer (and its raw bit rate was
twice as fast).

The UniDisk 3.5 is natively supported on the Apple //c (as long as it
has the "UniDisk" or later firmware revision).

The Apple IIc+ also supports the Apple 3.5 Drive.

> The controller cards *WERE NOT* interchangeable between the two types of
> drive.

Not exactly, the "Liron" card only supports SmartPort drives like the
UniDisk 3.5, but the "SuperDrive" card supports the SuperDrive (1.44
MB), Apple 3.5 Drive (800K) and UniDisk 3.5, as well as other SmartPort
drives.

> The type that would work with a //e would also work on the GS.

The UniDisk 3.5 does work on the IIgs built-in disk port, but its
performance is terrible compared to the Apple 3.5 Drive, due to the
slower interface and double buffering via the built-in controller.

> The "Mac-targeted" one might or might not have worked with a GS - I never
> tried.

There was also a Mac-only 800K drive which didn't work on the Apple
IIgs. It depended on getting a timing signal from the Mac to control its
rotation rate (as did the earlier 400K single sided 3.5" drive), which
the Apple II didn't supply. This drive can be distinguished from the
Apple II compatible ones because it doesn't have an eject button, and
its part number starts with "M" (Mac-only).

> I can't remember how to verify which was which, and worse, I can't 
> remember if both would work with the GS, or only one or the other. 
> 
> Any prayer of finding an "absolutely known to be functional with a GS"
> drive to check?


-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
11/10/2014 11:15:09 PM
Make it simple: remote all cards, plug one 3.5" drive and boot from it. Test. Plus the second 3.5" drive. Test.

av
0
Antoine
11/11/2014 12:18:08 AM
On 11/10/2014 6:15 PM, David Empson wrote:

> The VGC was socketed on the ROM 00 IIgs, and one of the batches was
> faulty (flickering or pink effects in 80-column text and/or monochrome
> double hi-res mode); it was replaced at the same time as the ROM 01
> upgrade. I don't know offhand if the VGC was still socketed after Apple
> started shipping the IIgs with ROM 01.
>
> The VGC is soldered to the motherboard in my ROM 3 IIgs.
>

The VGC (located under the power supply) on my ROM 01 IIgs is socketed.

Charlie

0
Charlie
11/11/2014 1:24:01 AM
Steven Hirsch <snhirsch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/10/2014 09:58 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
>> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>>>> see if
>>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>>>> and
>>>> TP153 for hdsel.
>>> 
>>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
>>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
>>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
>>> glue logic - to blame.
>> 
>> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard diagnostics.
>> Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
> 
> That isn't going to be quick to check.  I'd have to swap the mb back into
> a machine and it's somewhat inconvenient to do that at the moment.

The board works fine outside a case. ;-)
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
0
Michael
11/11/2014 7:05:26 AM
On 11/11/2014 02:05 AM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Steven Hirsch <snhirsch@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/10/2014 09:58 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>>>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>>>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>>>>> see if
>>>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>>>>> and
>>>>> TP153 for hdsel.
>>>>
>>>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
>>>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
>>>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
>>>> glue logic - to blame.
>>>
>>> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard diagnostics.
>>> Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
>>
>> That isn't going to be quick to check.  I'd have to swap the mb back into
>> a machine and it's somewhat inconvenient to do that at the moment.
>
> The board works fine outside a case. ;-)

Heh, yes, but the inconvenience is a result of having absolutely zero clear 
bench space due to other ongoing projects!


0
Steven
11/11/2014 1:16:44 PM
Steven Hirsch <snhirsch@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11/11/2014 02:05 AM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> Steven Hirsch <snhirsch@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/10/2014 09:58 AM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>>> On 11/10/2014 9:40 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>>> On 11/10/2014 05:02 AM, Rob Justice wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wonder if it's the outputs from the VGC not working. The 3.5 disk and
>>>>>> head select lines come from the VGC and not the IWM. The schematics show
>>>>>> some test points for each of these, maybe you could measure these to
>>>>>> see if
>>>>>> they are correct. The schematic I am looking at says TP111 for 3.5disk
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> TP153 for hdsel.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I should clarify my comment about a toasted IWM.  In fact, all I know is
>>>>> that one of my GS motherboards works in all respects other than
>>>>> supporting a Disk 3.5 drive.  It could very well be the VGC chip - or
>>>>> glue logic - to blame.
>>>> 
>>>> Steven - the crux of the whole thing will come down to onboard diagnostics.
>>>> Does your bad mobo pass the built-in tests?
>>> 
>>> That isn't going to be quick to check.  I'd have to swap the mb back into
>>> a machine and it's somewhat inconvenient to do that at the moment.
>> 
>> The board works fine outside a case. ;-)
> 
> Heh, yes, but the inconvenience is a result of having absolutely zero
> clear bench space due to other ongoing projects!

I understand!  Horizontal space seems to be the most common limiter. It was
an original motivation for the AppleCrate, which is functionally equivalent
to a (tall) pile of //e's.

3/4" per machine reduces the height considerably. ;-)
-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
0
Michael
11/11/2014 4:08:27 PM
The VGC is socketed in my IIgs also, its a ROM 01.

If you could get one of these, and it did not cost much, then it would be worth a try. I remember these used to pop up on ebay a bit, but I don't see any on there at the moment.

/Rob 
0
Rob
11/12/2014 12:11:25 AM
I have removed the 1 MB RAM card from the case. System still hangs upon boo=
t up.
I read the article on the drives and made sure I purchased a A9M0106 drive.=
 Both drives just hang the system. They kick out any discs in them at boot =
up and the drive light stays on and nothing happens. Both of the 5.25" A9M0=
107 drives work without a problem. I can't even get to the control panel wh=
en a 3.5" drive is connected.
If I connect a 5.25" drive and add the 3.5" behind the 5.25 drive, I can al=
most see the 3.5" drive. When I use copy 2+, it access the 3.25" but I can =
not format or catalog the disc. It seems like it thinks that it's another 5=
..25" disc drive.

Unfortunately, there are NO GS's around locally anymore. The 2 sources whic=
h may have had them look at me and ask me why do I want a 3.5" disc drive. =
So they aren't of any help whatsoever unless you have a current system whic=
h they will look at to repair.

Just wondering what else I can do? Too bad I can't use the 3.5" drive. I wa=
s looking to have some fun with the system. Oh well, probably have to wait =
for the CFFA3000 card.

0
Doug
11/12/2014 11:26:43 PM
I'm in Burnaby. While I don't have any IIgses I want to sell, if you want we could check your drives and IIgs with known working components

Wayne
0
waynejstewart
11/13/2014 12:12:02 AM
On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 17:26:44 UTC-6, Doug  wrote:
> I have removed the 1 MB RAM card from the case. System still hangs upon b=
oot up.
> I read the article on the drives and made sure I purchased a A9M0106 driv=
e. Both drives just hang the system. They kick out any discs in them at boo=
t up and the drive light stays on and nothing happens. Both of the 5.25" A9=
M0107 drives work without a problem. I can't even get to the control panel =
when a 3.5" drive is connected.
> If I connect a 5.25" drive and add the 3.5" behind the 5.25 drive, I can =
almost see the 3.5" drive. When I use copy 2+, it access the 3.25" but I ca=
n not format or catalog the disc. It seems like it thinks that it's another=
 5.25" disc drive.
>=20
> Unfortunately, there are NO GS's around locally anymore. The 2 sources wh=
ich may have had them look at me and ask me why do I want a 3.5" disc drive=
.. So they aren't of any help whatsoever unless you have a current system wh=
ich they will look at to repair.
>=20
> Just wondering what else I can do? Too bad I can't use the 3.5" drive. I =
was looking to have some fun with the system. Oh well, probably have to wai=
t for the CFFA3000 card.



is your 3.5 floppy formatted to Prodos or HFS, and is the system file "PROD=
OS" saved on disk.  Without the PRODOS file and format, your computer will =
also hang, but at the "Check Startup Device" screen with the sliding cursor=
..

Rob
0
gids
11/13/2014 12:32:09 AM
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 4:32:11 PM UTC-8, gid...@sasktel.net wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 November 2014 17:26:44 UTC-6, Doug  wrote:
> > I have removed the 1 MB RAM card from the case. System still hangs upon=
 boot up.
> > I read the article on the drives and made sure I purchased a A9M0106 dr=
ive. Both drives just hang the system. They kick out any discs in them at b=
oot up and the drive light stays on and nothing happens. Both of the 5.25" =
A9M0107 drives work without a problem. I can't even get to the control pane=
l when a 3.5" drive is connected.
> > If I connect a 5.25" drive and add the 3.5" behind the 5.25 drive, I ca=
n almost see the 3.5" drive. When I use copy 2+, it access the 3.25" but I =
can not format or catalog the disc. It seems like it thinks that it's anoth=
er 5.25" disc drive.
> >=20
> > Unfortunately, there are NO GS's around locally anymore. The 2 sources =
which may have had them look at me and ask me why do I want a 3.5" disc dri=
ve. So they aren't of any help whatsoever unless you have a current system =
which they will look at to repair.
> >=20
> > Just wondering what else I can do? Too bad I can't use the 3.5" drive. =
I was looking to have some fun with the system. Oh well, probably have to w=
ait for the CFFA3000 card.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> is your 3.5 floppy formatted to Prodos or HFS, and is the system file "PR=
ODOS" saved on disk.  Without the PRODOS file and format, your computer wil=
l also hang, but at the "Check Startup Device" screen with the sliding curs=
or.
>=20
> Rob

I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5" drive at=
tached. The system just hangs there and the led on the drive stays on.
Nothing else happens.
0
Doug
11/13/2014 7:04:54 PM
On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5" drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the drive stays on.
> Nothing else happens.

Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
another one.
0
David
11/13/2014 8:37:46 PM
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
> > I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5" drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the drive stays on.
> > Nothing else happens.
> 
> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
> another one.

However, the 5.25" drives work fine. Any idea what a mobo will cost me? I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?
Thanks.
0
Doug
11/14/2014 6:03:33 PM
On 11/14/2014 1:03 PM, Doug wrote:
> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
>>> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5" drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the drive stays on.
>>> Nothing else happens.
>>
>> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find
>> another one.
>
> However, the 5.25" drives work fine.

Yep.  A cruel irony.

> Any idea what a mobo will cost me? I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?

That depends entirely on how patient you are.  If you want one RFN, you 
will pay whatever is for sale right now.  A hundred bucks is probably a 
reasonable ceiling to set aside in your mind.  If you take it as sport 
and watch over a period of time, you may get much luckier.  I've gotten 
some for free, and I've given some away for free too.  But just because 
you can get lucky doesn't mean you will get lucky, right now.

Your situation is complicated somewhat by being across a border from a 
country with a fairly abundant supply, but fairly hostile shipping 
policies.  International shipping can be perceived as 
expensive/scary/painful for the lay postal patron, so some are unwilling 
to even try.
0
David
11/14/2014 6:24:29 PM
Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
>>> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5"
>>> drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the drive stays on.
>>> Nothing else happens.
>> 
>> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
>> another one.
> 
> However, the 5.25" drives work fine. Any idea what a mobo will cost me?
> I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?
> Thanks.

Ask someone here in csa2 to sell or give you one. Several people here have
stacks of IIGS computers. Post in comp.sys.apple2.marketplace
0
D
11/14/2014 6:26:54 PM
On 11/14/14 12:24 PM, David Schmidt wrote:
>
> policies. International shipping can be perceived as
> expensive/scary/painful for the lay postal patron, so some are unwilling
> to even try.

These people should get over it. It takes an extra 20 minutes at most 
because you have to fill out a customs form. I was routinely shipping 
copies of my 4 pound dead-weight to Japan and UK and Australia for $50.
And once you've done it a few times, it goes even faster when you're 
more familiar with the form.
0
D
11/14/2014 6:32:55 PM
On 11/14/2014 1:32 PM, D Finnigan wrote:
> On 11/14/14 12:24 PM, David Schmidt wrote:
>>
>> policies. International shipping can be perceived as
>> expensive/scary/painful for the lay postal patron, so some are unwilling
>> to even try.
>
> These people should get over it.

I'm with ya.  It doesn't mean they will.
0
David
11/14/2014 6:35:14 PM
D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> writes:

> Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>>> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
>>>> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5"
>>>> drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the
>>>> drive stays on.
>>>> Nothing else happens.
>>> 
>>> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
>>> another one.
>> 
>> However, the 5.25" drives work fine. Any idea what a mobo will cost me?
>> I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?
>> Thanks.
>
> Ask someone here in csa2 to sell or give you one. Several people here have
> stacks of IIGS computers. Post in comp.sys.apple2.marketplace


Keep your eye on craigslist: vancouver.en.craigslist.ca

These things come by now and again.  Right now there is a IIc (Nov 14
post) for $50 with a few accessories.  A IIgs might be next.

Also watch kijiji.ca.

--
Jerry    awanderin at gmail dot com
0
awanderin
11/16/2014 11:36:33 PM
D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> writes:

> Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
>>> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
>>>> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5"
>>>> drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the
>>>> drive stays on.
>>>> Nothing else happens.
>>> 
>>> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
>>> another one.
>> 
>> However, the 5.25" drives work fine. Any idea what a mobo will cost me?
>> I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?
>> Thanks.
>
> Ask someone here in csa2 to sell or give you one. Several people here have
> stacks of IIGS computers. Post in comp.sys.apple2.marketplace


Keep your eye on craigslist: vancouver.en.craigslist.ca

These things come by now and again.  Right now there is a IIc (Nov 14
post) for $50 with a few accessories.  A IIgs might be next.

Also watch kijiji.ca.

--
Jerry    awanderin at gmail dot com
0
awanderin
11/16/2014 11:36:39 PM
On Sunday, November 16, 2014 6:36:05 PM UTC-5, awanderin wrote:
> D Finnigan <dog_cow@macgui.com> writes:
> 
> > Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 13, 2014 12:37:44 PM UTC-8, schmidtd wrote:
> >>> On 11/13/2014 2:04 PM, Doug wrote:
> >>>> I don't eve get to the "Check Startup" Device screen with the 3.5"
> >>>> drive attached. The system just hangs there and the led on the
> >>>> drive stays on.
> >>>> Nothing else happens.
> >>> 
> >>> Your drive controller electronics on your mobo are fried.  You must find 
> >>> another one.
> >> 
> >> However, the 5.25" drives work fine. Any idea what a mobo will cost me?
> >> I've seen them on ebay for ~$80. what should I expect to pay?
> >> Thanks.
> >
> > Ask someone here in csa2 to sell or give you one. Several people here have
> > stacks of IIGS computers. Post in comp.sys.apple2.marketplace
> 
> 
> Keep your eye on craigslist: vancouver.en.craigslist.ca
> 
> These things come by now and again.  Right now there is a IIc (Nov 14
> post) for $50 with a few accessories.  A IIgs might be next.
> 
> Also watch kijiji.ca.
> 
> --
> Jerry    awanderin at gmail dot com

I have a ROM03 motherboard that I don't need. It's toast.

It was completely messed up by a leaking ROM3 Tadiran 3.6v 1/2AA Battery.

I don't know if there was any additional damage caused by trying to boot up the motherboard after the battery ruined the traces on the motherboard.
0
insanitor
12/1/2014 3:32:40 AM
I notice some IIgs vgc chips on ebay again, they are $10.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-IIGS-Video-Generation-Chip-VGC-Apple-Part-344S0046-C-NEW-/301419246955?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Parts_Accessories&hash=item462dfcb56b
0
Rob
12/4/2014 11:38:53 AM
I saw these. Grabbed my Apple 2c and will try and connect the 3.5" to it this weekend. Just curious if replacing that chip will actually work? Like I said I don't want to drop another $75 - $100 on another system. 
I'll replace the 2 capacitors and the battery on the motherboard as well. Think this will work?
I'd love to get this thing working with the 3.5 drive.
Suggestions?
Thanks.
0
Doug
12/9/2014 2:55:10 AM
On Monday, December 8, 2014 8:55:12 PM UTC-6, Doug wrote:
> I saw these. Grabbed my Apple 2c and will try and connect the 3.5" to it this weekend. Just curious if replacing that chip will actually work? Like I said I don't want to drop another $75 - $100 on another system. 
> I'll replace the 2 capacitors and the battery on the motherboard as well. Think this will work?
> I'd love to get this thing working with the 3.5 drive.
> Suggestions?
> Thanks.

The Apple 2c requires a Unidisk 3.5 drive instead of the Apple 3.5 drive. Your drives will work on a 2c Plus.
0
aalandrepair
12/9/2014 7:03:57 AM
Shoot. I just have a iic not a iic+. Do you guys think replacing that chip might help the problem? It's alot cheaper than another motherboard and case.
Anything else I can do besides get another system? The system was stated as working, but I don't think the seller knew the problem with the 3.5 floppy.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks.
0
Doug
12/10/2014 12:45:26 AM
Doug <dougenstein66@gmail.com> wrote:
> Shoot. I just have a iic not a iic+. Do you guys think replacing that
> chip might help the problem? It's alot cheaper than another motherboard and case.
> Anything else I can do besides get another system? The system was stated
> as working, but I don't think the seller knew the problem with the 3.5 floppy.
> Any suggestions would be appreciated.
> Thanks.

Doug, the only 3.5" drive that will work with the IIc is the rather
hard-to-come-by Unidisk 3.5. 

It is a "smart" drive with an internal 6502 that manages the drive and
transfers blocks to the IIc. For this reason, it is slower than directly
managed Apple 3.5 drives, and it uses a different native sector interleave.

-- 
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
0
Michael
12/10/2014 5:47:36 AM
You don't have really many options available.
1. Buy another mother board and replace what you have. This will resolve th=
e issue.
2. Try replacing the VGC, this is really the only other option available th=
at MAY fix the problem. Its really like taking a $10 bet to fix what you ha=
ve, which may or may not work. If it does not, then you have only lost $10,=
 and you go back to option 1. I think there is some chance it will as the e=
xtra lines that comes from the VGC drive the 3.5 drive select line and the =
head select. Neither of these are used for the 5.25 drive. And the 5.25 dri=
ve works, so the iwm seems to be functioning.(difficult to say that it is w=
orking fully)

my thoughts.
/Rob
0
Rob
12/11/2014 4:58:47 AM
On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:58:49 PM UTC-8, Rob Justice wrote:
> You don't have really many options available.
> 1. Buy another mother board and replace what you have. This will resolve =
the issue.
> 2. Try replacing the VGC, this is really the only other option available =
that MAY fix the problem. Its really like taking a $10 bet to fix what you =
have, which may or may not work. If it does not, then you have only lost $1=
0, and you go back to option 1. I think there is some chance it will as the=
 extra lines that comes from the VGC drive the 3.5 drive select line and th=
e head select. Neither of these are used for the 5.25 drive. And the 5.25 d=
rive works, so the iwm seems to be functioning.(difficult to say that it is=
 working fully)
>=20
> my thoughts.
> /Rob

Well I got a new VGC chip off of ebay for cheap. I looked at the socket the=
 original was sitting in and looked for a way to pull the chip out. Upon cl=
oser inspection, I noticed the upper right corner of the socket is cracked.=
 On top and on the right side. So it looked like someone previously trysted=
 to pull the chip out as well and cracked the socket. So replacing the chip=
 now isn't an option anymore with the broken socket. The machine runs still=
, but doesn't see the 3.5" floppies. This makes sense why the system isn't =
seeing the hard ware. Looks to me that the VGC chip is functioning but not =
100% due to the cracked socket. Looks like I'm going to have to buy another=
 motherboard or GS. Crap, I was hoping this would fix the issues.
oh well. I'll have to look on ebay again.
0
Doug
1/3/2015 11:14:12 PM
Reply:

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FAQ 5.37 Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? #3
This is an excerpt from the latest version perlfaq5.pod, which comes with the standard Perl distribution. These postings aim to reduce the number of repeated questions as well as allow the community to review and update the answers. The latest version of the complete perlfaq is at http://faq.perl.org . -------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.37: Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? Because even on non-Unix ports, Perl's glob function follows standard Unix globbing semantics. You'll need "glob("*")" to ge...

FAQ 5.36 Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? #3
This is an excerpt from the latest version perlfaq5.pod, which comes with the standard Perl distribution. These postings aim to reduce the number of repeated questions as well as allow the community to review and update the answers. The latest version of the complete perlfaq is at http://faq.perl.org . -------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.36: Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? Because even on non-Unix ports, Perl's glob function follows standard Unix globbing semantics. You'll need "glob("*")" to g...

FAQ 5.35 Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? #3 337615
This message is one of several periodic postings to comp.lang.perl.misc intended to make it easier for perl programmers to find answers to common questions. The core of this message represents an excerpt from the documentation provided with Perl. -------------------------------------------------------------------- 5.35: Why doesn't glob("*.*") get all the files? Because even on non-Unix ports, Perl's glob function follows standard Unix globbing semantics. You'll need "glob("*")" to get all (non-hidden) files. This makes glob() portable e...

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