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Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?

Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?

I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
Floppies.. I would hate to see them go in the trash .. So will an
apple drive format these and use them??

K.

0
krauer (73)
2/19/2007 1:54:28 PM
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"KPR" <krauer@rpmtec.com> wrote in message news:1171893268.411041.183420@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
: Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
:
: I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about
: 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k Floppies.. I would hate to
: see them go in the trash .. So will an apple
: drive format these and use them??

There is no reason why they wouldn't. You'd get
140K on side one. Best would be to try one, what
could it hurt?  :o))) Notch it to use side 2 as
a flippy disk.

William Garber
Email Address - willy46pa@garberstreet.com
Alt. Email - willy46pa@comcast.net
Web address - http://www.garberstreet.com



0
willy46pa2 (652)
2/19/2007 2:02:54 PM
On Feb 19, 8:54 am, "KPR" <kra...@rpmtec.com> wrote:
> Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
Absolutely.  Those are double density floppies, perfect for the Disk ]
[.  Be sure to check them for mold or general dirtiness.  You don't
want to wipe that gunk off with the drive head.  Some oxide coatings
will probably have survived better than others, so be sure to try
several.

0
schmidtd (1096)
2/19/2007 3:26:18 PM
On Feb 19, 8:54 am, "KPR" <kra...@rpmtec.com> wrote:
> Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
>
> I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
> Floppies.. I would hate to see them go in the trash .. So will an
> apple drive format these and use them??
>
> K.

If you can, be sure to bulk erase them before using them in your
Apple //.

Ralph Glatt

0
julian814 (581)
2/19/2007 3:53:36 PM
julian814 wrote:
> On Feb 19, 8:54 am, "KPR" <kra...@rpmtec.com> wrote:
> 
>>Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
>>
>>I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
>>Floppies.. I would hate to see them go in the trash .. So will an
>>apple drive format these and use them??
>>
>>K.
> 
> 
> If you can, be sure to bulk erase them before using them in your
> Apple //.

Actually, formatting in an Apple drive will erase anything on the
disk that is anywhere near a data track.  Bulk erasing isn't necessary.

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page:  http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
0
mjmahon (7061)
2/20/2007 10:00:16 AM
In article <1171893268.411041.183420@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
KPR <krauer@rpmtec.com> wrote:
>Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
>
>I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
>Floppies..

At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.

The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one of
those beasts. :-) I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort, let
alone 5.25" floppies.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
 \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

0
scott6 (358)
2/20/2007 7:21:06 PM
"Scott Alfter" <scott@alfter.DIESPAMMERSDIE.us> wrote in message 
news:C-KdnaXNzue_10bYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@giganews.com...

> At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
> System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.
>
> The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one 
> of
> those beasts. :-)

Lucky you!

>I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort,

Bzzzzzz, wrong answer!

IBM invented a floppy disk (8")  for loading microcode into their 370 
mainframes.

-Alex.


0
alexf (262)
2/20/2007 8:03:11 PM
In article <C-KdnaXNzue_10bYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@giganews.com>,
Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.DIESPAMMERSDIE.us> wrote:
>In article <1171893268.411041.183420@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>KPR <krauer@rpmtec.com> wrote:
>>Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
>>
>>I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
>>Floppies..
>
>At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
>System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.
>
>The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one of
>those beasts. :-) 

You should be happy for that!  :-)

>I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort, let
>alone 5.25" floppies.

Actually, the floppy was invented by IBM, back in the early 1970's.
The first floppes were 8" floppies though, holding some 240 KBytes
each (8" SSSD = Single Sided Single Density).  After a while double
density and double sided 8" floppies were introduced.  And still
later the 5.25" mini-floppy was introduced.


>  _/_
> / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
>(IIGS( http://alfter.us/            Top-posting!
> \_^_/ rm -rf /bin/laden            >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
>


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter,  Grev Turegatan 40,  SE-114 38 Stockholm,  SWEDEN
e-mail:  pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW:     http://stjarnhimlen.se/
0
pausch3 (497)
2/20/2007 8:42:16 PM
On Feb 21, 7:42 am, pau...@saaf.se (Paul Schlyter) wrote:
> Actually, the floppy was invented by IBM, back in the early 1970's.
> The first floppes were 8" floppies though, holding some 240 KBytes
> each (8" SSSD = Single Sided Single Density).  After a while double
> density and double sided 8" floppies were introduced.  And still
> later the 5.25" mini-floppy was introduced.

Back in the mid to late 80's we had a couple of Pyramid 90x
minicomputers and they used 5.25" floppy disks to hold their microcode.

0
mcs6502 (519)
2/20/2007 10:19:14 PM
Paul Schlyter <pausch@saaf.se> wrote:

> In article <C-KdnaXNzue_10bYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.DIESPAMMERSDIE.us> wrote:
> >In article <1171893268.411041.183420@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> >KPR <krauer@rpmtec.com> wrote:
> >>Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
> >>
> >>I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
> >>Floppies..
> >
> >At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
> >System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.
> >
> >The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one of
> >those beasts. :-) 
> 
> You should be happy for that!  :-)
> 
> >I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort, let
> >alone 5.25" floppies.
> 
> Actually, the floppy was invented by IBM, back in the early 1970's.
> The first floppes were 8" floppies though, holding some 240 KBytes
> each (8" SSSD = Single Sided Single Density).

I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
per sector, which would be 160 KB. Other systems might have used a more
efficient format with more bytes per sector (fewer gaps) and squeezed in
a little more per track, but I doubt they could have got 240 KB out of
it.

The same system supported DSDD 8" floppies, which used a double sided,
77 track, 17 sector, 512 byte format (1.3 MB).

The double density formats were highly variable and machine-specific,
but the SSSD 8" format was the official and original standard for
distribution of CP/M from Digital Research, and was intended to be used
as a cross-platform compatible format (as long as 8" drives were
available for that platform).

CP/M on an Apple II made things difficult by only using the Apple II
5.25" format, which meant software developers had to jump through some
hoops to get software onto the Apple II CP/M disks in the first place if
they were selling CP/M software for other systems.

The original transfer of the CP/M operating system to the Apple II
platform may have been done using an 8" disk drive and controller card.
Alternatively, DOS 3.3 might have been used as a go-between to copy the
OS and system applications from another platform.

After a working CP/M system was running on the Z80 card with a basic set
of tools, it would be possible to use serial ports to transfer other
files from a "standard" CP/M system, e.g. via XModem. The original
XModem implementation is ideally suited for transferring CP/M files, as
both use a 128 byte sector size and don't care about the exact number of
bytes in the file.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson (3825)
2/20/2007 11:30:59 PM
In article <1htvwo7.i7wl3av17mrN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>,
David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> Paul Schlyter <pausch@saaf.se> wrote:
> 
>> In article <C-KdnaXNzue_10bYnZ2dnUVZ_riknZ2d@giganews.com>,
>> Scott Alfter <scott@alfter.DIESPAMMERSDIE.us> wrote:
>>> In article <1171893268.411041.183420@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> KPR <krauer@rpmtec.com> wrote:
>>>> Will IBM 360 Floppies work in Apple ][ Drives?
>>>>
>>>> I finnaly cleand up my basement and have about 400+  5 1/4 IMB 360k
>>>> Floppies..
>>>
>>> At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
>>> System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.
>>>
>>> The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one of
>>> those beasts. :-) 
>> 
>> You should be happy for that!  :-)
>> 
>>> I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort, let
>>> alone 5.25" floppies.
>> 
>> Actually, the floppy was invented by IBM, back in the early 1970's.
>> The first floppes were 8" floppies though, holding some 240 KBytes
>> each (8" SSSD = Single Sided Single Density).
> 
> I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
> 80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
> per sector, which would be 160 KB. Other systems might have used a more
> efficient format with more bytes per sector (fewer gaps) and squeezed in
> a little more per track, but I doubt they could have got 240 KB out of
> it.
> 
> The same system supported DSDD 8" floppies, which used a double sided,
> 77 track, 17 sector, 512 byte format (1.3 MB).
>
> The double density formats were highly variable and machine-specific,
> but the SSSD 8" format was the official and original standard for
> distribution of CP/M from Digital Research, and was intended to be used
> as a cross-platform compatible format (as long as 8" drives were
> available for that platform).
> 
> CP/M on an Apple II made things difficult by only using the Apple II
> 5.25" format, which meant software developers had to jump through some
> hoops to get software onto the Apple II CP/M disks in the first place if
> they were selling CP/M software for other systems.

At the job I had in the mid 1980's, they bought an Apple II for data
acquisition, and added an extra 8" double floppy drive, mostly to get
larger floppy capacity than the 140K which the Apple II's own floppy
format offered.  Drivers for Apple DOS 3.3 and Apple CP/M came with
that 8" floppy drive.  This enabled me to buy CP/M software on 8" SSSD
disks and then transfer the files to Apple II floppies with just a
file copy command from an 8" disk volume to a 5.25" disk volume.  Much
easier than hooking up two computers through a serial line... :-)

I then switched jobs, ceased using CP/M, and that Apple II is probably
gone now since a long time - don't know what happened to it.


> The original transfer of the CP/M operating system to the Apple II
> platform may have been done using an 8" disk drive and controller card.
> Alternatively, DOS 3.3 might have been used as a go-between to copy the
> OS and system applications from another platform.
> 
> After a working CP/M system was running on the Z80 card with a basic set
> of tools, it would be possible to use serial ports to transfer other
> files from a "standard" CP/M system, e.g. via XModem. The original
> XModem implementation is ideally suited for transferring CP/M files, as
> both use a 128 byte sector size and don't care about the exact number of
> bytes in the file.
> 
> -- 
> David Empson
> dempson@actrix.gen.nz
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter,  Grev Turegatan 40,  SE-114 38 Stockholm,  SWEDEN
e-mail:  pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW:     http://stjarnhimlen.se/
0
pausch3 (497)
2/21/2007 7:12:07 AM
David Empson wrote:

> I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
> 80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
> per sector, which would be 160 KB.

I seem to remember that it was 77 tracks of 26 sectors (or some other
fairly odd numbers). Never had one, but CP/M has some built in tables
for these. That's were those ugly 128 byte records come from that almost
everybody else had to block/deblock in their BIOS, wasting precious space.

Just looked into wikipedia: it was really 77x26x128. Equivalent to 2002
punch cards (2000 was a common box size for those, it seems).

-- 
Linards Ticmanis
0
ticmanis (776)
2/22/2007 12:13:38 AM
Linards Ticmanis wrote:
> David Empson wrote:
> 
> 
>>I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
>>80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
>>per sector, which would be 160 KB.
> 
> 
> I seem to remember that it was 77 tracks of 26 sectors (or some other
> fairly odd numbers). Never had one, but CP/M has some built in tables
> for these. That's were those ugly 128 byte records come from that almost
> everybody else had to block/deblock in their BIOS, wasting precious space.
> 
> Just looked into wikipedia: it was really 77x26x128. Equivalent to 2002
> punch cards (2000 was a common box size for those, it seems).

Although they made smaller boxes for bookstores, etc., the 2000-card
box was the standard.  I remember *walls* of stacked 200-card boxes!

I used to carry one around with me a lot.  ;-)

There were also "file cabinets" for punched cards that had drawers
holding 4000 cards, plus just enough wiggle room for a sliding
"backstop" to keep them in compression.

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page:  http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
0
mjmahon (7061)
2/22/2007 3:05:02 AM
In article <45dce030$0$20288$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>,
Linards Ticmanis  <ticmanis@gmx.de> wrote:

> David Empson wrote:
> 
>> I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
>> 80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
>> per sector, which would be 160 KB.
> 
> I seem to remember that it was 77 tracks of 26 sectors (or some other
> fairly odd numbers). Never had one, but CP/M has some built in tables
> for these. That's were those ugly 128 byte records come from that almost
> everybody else had to block/deblock in their BIOS, wasting precious space.
> 
> Just looked into wikipedia: it was really 77x26x128. Equivalent to 2002
> punch cards (2000 was a common box size for those, it seems).

Since 77*26 = 2002, this corresponds to 128 bytes per punch card.  But
wasn't the standard punch card 80 columns rather than 128 columns?
OK, each column had 12 punch locations instead of 8 - but if we
consider each punch location one but, that's still isn't enough for
128 bytes, only for 120 bytes.

The punched cards were used well before the computer age, actually as
early as 1725!  The IBM standard 80-column punch card originated in 1928.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_card

A punch card simulator can be found here:

   http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Schlyter,  Grev Turegatan 40,  SE-114 38 Stockholm,  SWEDEN
e-mail:  pausch at stockholm dot bostream dot se
WWW:     http://stjarnhimlen.se/
0
pausch3 (497)
2/22/2007 7:42:00 AM
Paul Schlyter wrote:
> In article <45dce030$0$20288$9b4e6d93@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>,
> Linards Ticmanis  <ticmanis@gmx.de> wrote:
> 
> 
>>David Empson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I used the standard IBM 8" SSSD floppy disks on a CP/M system in the mid
>>>80s. If memory serves, it had 40 tracks, 32 sectors per track, 128 bytes
>>>per sector, which would be 160 KB.
>>
>>I seem to remember that it was 77 tracks of 26 sectors (or some other
>>fairly odd numbers). Never had one, but CP/M has some built in tables
>>for these. That's were those ugly 128 byte records come from that almost
>>everybody else had to block/deblock in their BIOS, wasting precious space.
>>
>>Just looked into wikipedia: it was really 77x26x128. Equivalent to 2002
>>punch cards (2000 was a common box size for those, it seems).
> 
> 
> Since 77*26 = 2002, this corresponds to 128 bytes per punch card.  But
> wasn't the standard punch card 80 columns rather than 128 columns?
> OK, each column had 12 punch locations instead of 8 - but if we
> consider each punch location one but, that's still isn't enough for
> 128 bytes, only for 120 bytes.
> 
> The punched cards were used well before the computer age, actually as
> early as 1725!  The IBM standard 80-column punch card originated in 1928.

Right, and it's 80-column width was designed to approximate the needs
for unit record accounting.  (Remington Rand came to the slightly larger
conclusion that 90 characters would be appropriate.)

The original design was decidedly decimally oriented, and the extension
to alphanumerics through the "zone" punches was a later addition.

When computers came on the scene, cards were adapted as input/output
media, and eventually generalized to first "row binary" (with 24 words
of 36 bits each punched two words to a row--and the last 8 columns left
for a sequence number), and later "column binary".

The 12-row x 72- or 80-column format was never a particularly smooth
fit with the power-of-two world popularized by the System/360, which
led to the introduction (with the System/3) of a smaller punched card
with small round holes (shades of Remington Rand!) with 96 characters
per card, arranged in three rows of 32 characters.  After a brief
flurry, they faded away, as punched cards practically disappeared.

At first, a few terminals showed up in "keypunch rooms", then more
terminals and fewer keypunches, then, within a couple of years, you
could only find a keypunch in the corner of a back room!

Although there were a few earlier attempts (Datapoint, for example)
to replace keypunches with "direct-to-tape" keyboarding, what finally
did the punched card in was the multiplexing of *lots* of terminals
into systems running on-line editors.

Although "glass TTY" editing is certainly much more effective than
keypunch editing, I occasionally reminisce about "thumb edits" on
keypunch machines, in which one could insert and delete characters
while otherwise duplicating a card.  ;-)  And it was great fun
punching "drum" cards for tabs, shifts, and auto-dups!  ;-)

-michael

NadaNet networking for Apple II computers!
Home page:  http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
0
mjmahon (7061)
2/23/2007 9:24:17 AM
Scott Alfter wrote:

(snip)
> At first, your subject line brought up the thought "floppies for a
> System/360?"    Leaving off the "K" from "360K" had that effect.

> The weird thing is that I'm nowhere near old enough to have ever used one of
> those beasts. :-) I suspect they never used floppy disks of any sort, let
> alone 5.25" floppies.

Not S/360, but S/370.  They were invented to hold microcode
for some S/370 machines, which was loaded into RAM control
store from the floppy at IMPL time.  (Initial MicroProgram Load).

Note that you don't boot a 360 or 370, you IPL it.  That is,
Initial Program Load.

-- glen

0
gah (12851)
4/22/2007 9:33:12 AM
Reply: