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booting from CF-Card as IDE hard disc

 	Hi there!

Has anyone done this successfully?

My setup:

- Atari Falcon
- IDE44<->CF-Slot (pure wiring) adapter
- SanDisk 128 MB Compact Flash Card

HDDriver 8.1 installed successfully, as on any hard disc before. The "card 
disc" is fully functional.

BUT: I am not able to boot from the card disc, have to load HDDriver from 
floppy though it is installed on card disc drive "C".


I guess there is something with the TOS boot routines that makes them 
unable to recognise the card disc.

Maybe I should try another CF-Card brand?

Or do I have to patch the TOS boot routines?

Has anyone made some experience in these fields?



 	Best regards,

 		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/26/2006 10:54:32 PM
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Hallo Alexander!


AB>Maybe I should try another CF-Card brand?
AB>
AB>Or do I have to patch the TOS boot routines?
AB>
AB>Has anyone made some experience in these fields?

I've got the IDE card reader from Reichelt in my Falcon. It's an ATAPI device,
and IIRC my Falcon was able to boot from a SD card in that device.


mit freundlichem Gru� aus Bubenreuth

Ekkehard

0
Ekkehard_Flessa
11/27/2006 5:39:00 AM
Alexander Beuscher <alexb@jupiter.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de> wrote:

> I guess there is something with the TOS boot routines that makes them 
> unable to recognise the card disc.

> Maybe I should try another CF-Card brand?

> Or do I have to patch the TOS boot routines?

I have a similar set-up on my Milan, it boots from a 512Mb CF-card. It 
wouldn't boot from the 64Mb CF-card I first tried though, so I suggest you 
try another CF-card.

-- 

/*
** Jo Even Skarstein   http://joska.nvg.org/
*/
0
Jo
11/27/2006 6:39:19 PM
	Hi Ekkehard!

EF> I've got the IDE card reader from Reichelt in my Falcon. It's an ATAPI 
EF> device, and IIRC my Falcon was able to boot from a SD card in that 
EF> device.

Interesting. I just searched Reichelt but found only two IDE card readers 
that don't match your description:

- Travla Reader: bootable, IDE-CF adapter, for travla cases
- IDE reader 6in1: not bootable, but hot swappable, multinorm

What's your card reader's labeling?


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/27/2006 10:06:47 PM
	Hi Jo Even!

JES> I have a similar set-up on my Milan, it boots from a 512Mb CF-card. 
JES> It wouldn't boot from the 64Mb CF-card I first tried though, so I 
JES> suggest you try another CF-card.

OK, I'll try to borrow CF-cards from friends, maybe I'll find a shop that 
is customer friendly enough as well.

BTW: What brand/model are the CF cards you have tried?


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/27/2006 10:11:29 PM
Hallo Alexander!


AB>- IDE reader 6in1: not bootable, but hot swappable, multinorm
AB>
AB>What's your card reader's labeling?

Schould be the one quoted above.


From the order confirmation mail:

IDE READER 6IN1  Multislot Kartenleser IDE                 2     59.80 Euro



On the Milan, HDDRUTIL reports the following:
  02.00: GENERIC IDE CARD READER 9350  Direct Access
  "SCSI-Level: ATAPI"
  
On the Falcon, the device is connected via ACARD SCSIDE adaptor to SCSI bus.


mit freundlichem Gru� aus Bubenreuth

Ekkehard

0
Ekkehard_Flessa
11/28/2006 6:35:00 AM
Alexander Beuscher wrote:

> Interesting. I just searched Reichelt but found only two IDE card readers 
> that don't match your description:

I think I sent a previous comment on Ekkehards's posting by e-mail 
instead of posting it to this newsgroup.
I doubt that Ekkehard's reader is an ATAPI device. Even though ATAPI and 
IDE share the same connector the protocols are different. IDE hard disk 
drives are not ATAPI devices but simply IDE devices, and the same most 
likely applies to his reader, because it acts as an IDE hard disk drive.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Dr. Uwe Seimet                           http://www.linkbylink.net/
0
Uwe
11/28/2006 6:46:50 AM
Ekkehard Flessa wrote:

> On the Milan, HDDRUTIL reports the following:
>   02.00: GENERIC IDE CARD READER 9350  Direct Access
>   "SCSI-Level: ATAPI"

That's interesting. (See my previous comments on IDE/ATAPI). Are media 
changes correctly reported with this reader, i.e. does the Atari 
correctly handle changing the CF card?

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Dr. Uwe Seimet                           http://www.linkbylink.net/
0
Uwe
11/28/2006 6:40:46 PM
Alexander Beuscher wrote:

> Funny that you can boot from it while it is specified as "not bootable" 

"Not bootable" most likely refers to a boot mechanism not relevant for 
the Atari. As long as TOS can read single sectors from a drive, in order 
to bootstrap the actual hard disk driver, the drive is automatically 
bootable.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Dr. Uwe Seimet                           http://www.linkbylink.net/
0
Uwe
11/28/2006 8:14:27 PM
	Hi Ekkehard!

EF> Schould be the one quoted above.

Funny that you can boot from it while it is specified as "not bootable" 
;-)

EF> IDE READER 6IN1  Multislot Kartenleser IDE                 2     59.80 Euro

Too bad, currently it's not available.

And it's quiet big - the target system is my STBook where the CF+adapter 
should replace the damaged internal hard disc.

EF> On the Falcon, the device is connected via ACARD SCSIDE adaptor to SCSI bus.

So you already have two IDE devices installed in your Falcon?



	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/28/2006 9:07:48 PM
Hallo Alexander!


AB>And it's quiet big - the target system is my STBook where the
AB>CF+adapter should replace the damaged internal hard disc.

Ah okay. Well, It's normal 3,5" floppy drive size, so no problem at all for me
as both my Milan and Falcon are located in big tower cases :-)


AB>So you already have two IDE devices installed in your Falcon?

No. I've got a damaged IDE port in that Falcon. I once inserted the IDE cable
in a wrong position, which caused a short ciruit in the power lines within the
mainboard.


mit freundlichem Gru� aus Bubenreuth

Ekkehard

0
Ekkehard_Flessa
11/29/2006 4:55:00 AM
Hallo Uwe!


US>That's interesting. (See my previous comments on IDE/ATAPI). Are media
US>changes correctly reported with this reader, i.e. does the Atari
US>correctly handle changing the CF card?

Seems so. If I change the card, and press ESC, the contents of JINNEE's drive
window changes to show that of the newly inserted card.


mit freundlichem Gru� aus Bubenreuth

Ekkehard

0
Ekkehard_Flessa
11/29/2006 4:59:00 AM
	Hi Uwe!

US> "Not bootable" most likely refers to a boot mechanism not relevant for 
US> the Atari.

I agree, still it's funny - and kind of typical for us Atari users that 
rules from the PC world don't apply.

US> As long as TOS can read single sectors from a drive, in order to 
US> bootstrap the actual hard disk driver, the drive is automatically 
US> bootable.

That's why I hope that CF cards from manufacturers other than SanDisc will 
be recognised by TOS - I'll test a couple of manufacturers this weekend.


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/30/2006 11:11:57 PM
	Hi Ekkehard!

EF> Well, It's normal 3,5" floppy drive size,

Didn't get that from the small picture, thought it was 5,25"... I'll keep 
it in mind for the next Atari to be reconditioned...

EF> I've got a damaged IDE port in that Falcon. I once inserted the IDE 
EF> cable in a wrong position, which caused a short ciruit in the power 
EF> lines within the mainboard.

Ouch... You think some copper lines in the pcb are burnt? Or parts of the 
logic chips? The first might be repaired easily...


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
11/30/2006 11:19:33 PM
Hallo Alexander!


AB>Ouch... You think some copper lines in the pcb are burnt? Or parts of
AB>the logic chips? The first might be repaired easily...

I definetely know that some lines in the middle layers of the mainboard are
burnt. There's a large black spot there. The Falcon has been sent to Rodolphe
for CT2 installation afterwards, and even he wasn't able to get the IDE port to
work.


mit freundlichem Gru� aus Bubenreuth

Ekkehard

0
Ekkehard_Flessa
12/1/2006 5:44:00 AM
Alexander Beuscher wrote:

> I think the strange device 00.00 might be the reason for the Falcon not to 
> boot from the CF cards. No idea why it is listed, the CF card plugged into 
> the adapter is the only device on the IDE bus. And it always is recognised 
> as device 01.00 - no matter if the adapter is jumpered as "master" or as 
> "slave".

The master should be 00.00, the slave 01.00. In your case this does not 
seem to be the case. My guess is that something is wrong with the CF 
adapter or the cable.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Dr. Uwe Seimet                           http://www.linkbylink.net/
0
Uwe
12/10/2006 5:41:41 PM
	Hi Ekkehard!

EF> The Falcon has been sent to Rodolphe for CT2 installation afterwards, 
EF> and even he wasn't able to get the IDE port to work.

If Rodolphe can't do anything... But at least you've tried all that was 
possible.


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
12/10/2006 10:23:45 PM
	Hi there again!

(Just as reminder:)

AB> My setup:
AB> 
AB> - Atari Falcon
AB> - IDE44<->CF-Slot (pure wiring) adapter
AB> - SanDisk 128 MB Compact Flash Card
AB> 
AB> HDDriver 8.1 installed successfully, as on any hard disc before. The "card
AB> disc" is fully functional.

Now I've done some additional tests with some (borrowed) CF-Cards (tested 
in exchange with my SanDisk 128MB).

Here a short overview about HDDRUTIL's ID check output:

(Everything listed below "Bus 2 Atari IDE"):

- my SanDisk 128MB
	00.00  p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.  Direct Access  // often
	01.00  SanDisk SDCFH-128        Vdg  Direct Access
	-> device 00.00 vanishes after bus rescan

- borrowed Medion 128MB
	00.00  p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_  Direct Access  // often
	01.00  CF-ATA                   1.1  Direct Access
	-> device 00.00 vanishes after bus rescan
	   (*under*scores should be *over*scores!)

- borrowed Hama 128MB
	// no 00.00 shown
	01.00  1                       2N2-  Direct Access

- borrowed Canon FC 32M
	// no 00.00 shown
	01.00  SanDisk SDCFB-32         Vdg  Direct Access

- borrowed Kingmax 8 MB
	00.00   _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  Direct Access  // often
	01.00  KCF008MP                Ver.  Direct Access
	-> device 00.00 vanishes after bus rescan
	-> device 00.00 reoccurs after reboot
	   (*under*scores should be *over*scores)


I think the strange device 00.00 might be the reason for the Falcon not to 
boot from the CF cards. No idea why it is listed, the CF card plugged into 
the adapter is the only device on the IDE bus. And it always is recognised 
as device 01.00 - no matter if the adapter is jumpered as "master" or as 
"slave".

From what I remember TOS does scan hard disc devices on busses in this 
way:
It starts with device 0, checks if there is a corresponding hard disc and 
breaks if not. Is the hard disc bootable it boots from it, otherwise it 
checks the next device.

If this is true the above mentioned device 00.00 would instantly break the 
"boot from hard disc" routine of TOS, right?

So my job was to

- make the CF card device 00.00
or
- modify TOS to start with device 01.00


right?


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
12/11/2006 4:57:40 PM
In message <Pine.LNX.4.64.0612111732190.1183@localhost>, alexb@jupiter.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de said:

>Now I've done some additional tests with some (borrowed) CF-Cards (tested 
>in exchange with my SanDisk 128MB).
>
>Here a short overview about HDDRUTIL's ID check output:
>
>(Everything listed below "Bus 2 Atari IDE"):
>
>- my SanDisk 128MB
>	00.00  p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.p.  Direct Access  // often
>	01.00  SanDisk SDCFH-128        Vdg  Direct Access
>	-> device 00.00 vanishes after bus rescan
>
>- borrowed Medion 128MB
>	00.00  p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_p_  Direct Access  // often
>	01.00  CF-ATA                   1.1  Direct Access
>	-> device 00.00 vanishes after bus rescan
>	   (*under*scores should be *over*scores!)

--SNIP--

Does this strange 00.00 entry appear every time you try to access 
the card after a cold reboot, or only the first time the card is 
used? In other words, is it perhaps something that is written to 
the card in manufacture?

Regards, /Peter/

0
xlator
12/11/2006 8:57:19 PM
	Hi Uwe!

US> The master should be 00.00, the slave 01.00. In your case this does 
US> not seem to be the case.

ACK.

US> My guess is that something is wrong with the CF adapter or the cable.

That was a good hint. I did some research about IDE 44 interface pinout 
and Master/Slave stuff, then I checked the adapter's wiring...

Result:
My adapter's "Master/Slave"-jumper is a "CableSelect/nothing"-jumper!

I guess that "CableSelect" is not available (in the intended way) within 
Atari Falcon computers, so that something messy happens.

From what I read a "Master" device has CableSelect connected to GND while 
a "Slave" device has it left unconnected (thus the "xxx/nothing"-jumper 
is half way right).

So my next test will be to connect the jumper to GND - I'll give a report 
then!


	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
12/11/2006 9:42:03 PM
 	Hello Peter!

> Does this strange 00.00 entry appear every time you try to access the 
> card after a cold reboot, or only the first time the card is used?

For some cards a device 00.00 appeared only after cold boot, for others it 
reappeared after warm boot from time to time as well.

> In other words, is it perhaps something that is written to the card in 
> manufacture?

Probably not. But see my parallel posting...


 	Regards,

 		Alexander
0
Alexander
12/17/2006 12:36:31 AM
	Hi there!

If anyone using IDE-CF-card-adaptors should ever see "ghost" devices 00.00 
while the CF-card is recognised as device 01.00 then it is probably a 
CableSelect issue:

AB> My adapter's "Master/Slave"-jumper is a "CableSelect/nothing"-jumper!

And Atari computers do not provide a CableSelect.

AB> So my next test will be to connect the jumper to GND - I'll give a 
AB> report then!

I've done this test now: The CF-card now is recognised as device 00.00 
and there is no "ghost" device 01.00 ;-)

And the very helpful effect of this is that my Falcon now boots from the 
CF-card!


Thanks to all the helpful people in this group!



	Regards,

		Alexander
0
Alexander
12/17/2006 12:48:46 AM
Alexander Beuscher wrote:

> I've done this test now: The CF-card now is recognised as device 00.00 
> and there is no "ghost" device 01.00 ;-)

Good to know that. I will add a note on the cable select issue to the 
HDDRIVER manual.

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   Dr. Uwe Seimet                           http://www.linkbylink.net/
0
Uwe
12/17/2006 7:26:05 AM
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