Hello!  I am looking to purchase a USB floppy drive for my Macintosh in 
order to transfer .d64 files from the internet back to my 1581 and I 
remember a few people on the group here saying that they owned these 
drives and that they worked fine for this.  Would anyone out there who 
has one of these who has used it for this purpose please let me know the 
brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
uses.

Thanks in advance!!!!


Douglas

:)

Hi Douglas, you wrote:
> Hello!  I am looking to purchase a USB floppy drive for my Macintosh in 
> order to transfer .d64 files from the internet back to my 1581 and I 
> remember a few people on the group here saying that they owned these 
> drives and that they worked fine for this.  Would anyone out there who 
> has one of these who has used it for this purpose please let me know the 
> brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
> one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
> with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
> floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
> uses.

I never tested any USB floppy disk drive nor do I own a 1581
disk drive. But from my experiences in developing 1581-Copy
(see http://d81.de) I can say the following:

  * I believe, that I it is very unlikely that an USB floppy
    disk drive can be programmed in a way so that the native
    1581 floppy disk format can be written
  * I see a chance in transferring content from the USB floppy
    disk drive to the 1581 by using the "standard" 720K PC
    floppy disk format, but the drive must be able to write
    to 720K double density floppy disks
  * On the Commodore side you have to use some custom software
    like Big Blue Reader (or Little Read Reader) to read out
    to contents of that disk

I may be wrong here, maybe some of these USB floppy disk drives
can be custom-programmed, so that many foreign floppy disk
formats can be created (formatted), written and read.
But developing the appropriate software wouldn't be an out-
of-the-box solution you are surely looking for.


Womo

-- 
   ------ to obtain more infos about me, look up the page  ------
     ---- http://www.wmsr.de      pwnah (at) d81 (dot) de  ----

Hello Douglas,

> brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
> one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
> with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
> floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
> uses.

I just verified that it works with my drive.  I have an older iBook 
(Indigo G3 366 MHz) with USB and FireWire.

The drive that I am using is not one of the standard USB drives that you 
see cheaply available.  It is a:

Que SuperDisk 240MB / FD 32MB made by QPS.  This drive will write to 
LS-240 floppy disks (240 MB disks).  It will also store 32 MB on a 
regular 1.44 MB floppy disk.  Of course in addition to that, it will 
also write / format MS-DOS 720K & 1.44 MB disks, and Macintosh 800K and 
1.6 (1.4?) Megabyte disks.

The drive is a USB model manufactured in May of 2001 by QPS, Inc.  The 
model number is: LKM-FK73-D.

I use this drive regularly to transfer files between my iBook and 
Commodore 128.  I generally do everything on MS-DOS 1.44 MB disks since 
that format is compatible with both platforms.  My Commodore 128 is 
equipped with a CMD FD-2000 3.5" drive which can read high density disks.

Before you jump right in, there are some things to consider.  First, you 
will need to take into account the particular features supported by your 
version of the Mac OS.

If I remember right, you will need at least Mac OS 8.6.1 to support USB 
devices properly.  Second, the latest version of the Mac OS that will 
properly format (make newly formatted) MS-DOS disks is 9.2.2.

In Mac OS 8.6 through 9.2.2, you can easily format and create blank 720K 
and 1.44 MB disks.  You just choose the "erase disk" option from the 
menu and select your format.

In OS X (10.0 and higher), you can still read and write files to MS-DOS 
720K and 1.44 MB disks.  The ability to properly format (create new 
blank disks) in the MS-DOS 720K and 1.44 MB formats is no longer 
possible in OS X.

Rest assured, OS X will provide you with the option to format these disk 
formats.  It will even allow you to read and write to the disk you just 
formatted.  Unfortunately, no PC or Commodore will be able to read these 
disks.  Although it will claim that it has properly formatted a 1.44 MB 
MS-DOS disk, the disk will be useless in another type of computer.  Keep 
in mind that I have only tested this in OS X versions from 10.0 through 
10.1.5.  Apple may or may not have corrected this in 10.2 or 10.3.

So, essentially, you can format new MS-DOS disks in OS 8.6 through 9.2.2 
using an USB floppy drive.  If you want to make new blank disks, you 
will need to perform this task in version 9.2.2 or lower.

If you already have a MS-DOS formatted disk, then you can read, write, 
and copy files to and from it as much as you like in either OS X (10) or 
any prior OS version.

Now that we've discussed the Macinosh side of things, you need to also 
consider the problems you may face on the Commodore side of the process.

On the Commodore computers, 1581 drives use a different type of read / 
write head than Macintosh and PC high density drives do.  This small and 
seemingly insignificant issue can actually be quite a problem.

Because of these minor differences, some 1581 drives have difficulty 
reliably reading MS-DOS formatted disks (regardless of whether they were 
written on a PC or Mac).  In my experience, the drive would often read 
the directory, but then it was a 50% chance as to whether or not the 
drive would corrupt the data as it read it from the disk.  Note that I 
am simply referring to corrupting what the computer receives, not what 
is stored on the disk.  I found that with the original factory drive 
mechanism installed, it was more trouble than it was worth to transfer 
any files in this fashion.

There is quite a degree of variation between individual 1581 drive 
mechanisms, so while most of them use the same drive mechanism, some 
will properly read disks that others will not.  Even if the heads on all 
of the 1581 mechanisms are properly alighned, some will have trouble 
reading disks that others have no trouble with.

In my experimentation, I verified that this problem was indeed unique to 
the 3.5" floppy drive mechanisms that Commodore used in the 1581 drives. 
  I verified that my heads were properly aligned, and then proceeded to 
experiment with other mechanisms that were available.

I converted two PC 1.44 Megabyte floppy drive mechanisms to function in 
the 1581 drive.  Using both of these converted drive mechanisms, my 1581 
drive was able to read and write MS-DOS formatted disks with 100% 
accuracy.  The main problem is finding suitable drive mechanisms to be 
converted, and then also finding ones who's eject buttons will match up 
with the proper spot on the 1581 drive.  Of course, you can always 
cut-up the front of your case to accomodate the eject button on other 
mechanisms, but that isn't usually desireble.

If you do decide to take on such a task, you will need to locate a 1.44 
MB PC drive mechanism that has a jumper for the drive select.  These are 
usually difficult to find.  You will need to be able to set the drive 
select to "0".  99.9% of the floppy drives I have ever seen are 
hard-wired to drive select 1 (or use very fine surface mount connections 
for making the change).  If you can find one with a jumper or switch 
built-in, that would be ideal.

Now, if you have made it that far, then there is also some soldering and 
  cable modifications, and a resistor to install (can't remember all the 
details at the moment), but you will need to be prepared to use a 
soldering iron (or lots of duct-tape), and do some tinkering with the 
arrangement of the wires on the ribbon cable.

With a PC mechanism installed, the 1581 will read and write 720K MS-DOS 
disks with 100% reliability.  If you chose to stick with your stock 
mechanism, then you may or may not have trouble reading MS-DOS 720K 
disks.  I, personally, would try to read the disks with your stock 
mechanism first and see if you are more fortunate than I was with my 
original mechanism.

In the end, I eventually chose to purchase the CMD FD-2000 so that I 
would have a drive that was not only able to read the disks reliably (as 
I could on my modified 1581), but also able to read and write 
high-density 1.44 MB disks which are not only easier to purchase, but 
also more convenient when transferring lots of large files.

Anyway, hopefully I haven't scared you away from trying this.  I just 
thought you should be fully informed before you spend to much money and 
were disappointed with your results.

Best of luck to you.  E-mail me if you have any further questions that I 
might be able to help you with.  I know that somewhere in my stack of 
papers is the information that details how I modified my 1581 drive and 
1.44 MB PC drive mechanism to work together.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

Douglas Carroll wrote:
> Hello!  I am looking to purchase a USB floppy drive for my Macintosh in 
> order to transfer .d64 files from the internet back to my 1581 and I 
> remember a few people on the group here saying that they owned these 
> drives and that they worked fine for this.  Would anyone out there who 
> has one of these who has used it for this purpose please let me know the 
> brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
> one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
> with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
> floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
> uses.

I guess you are going to use the 720KiB MS-DOS format, right?

I have a USB floppy branded by SONY. It advertises itself on the bus as 
"USB Floppy Drive" only. On the bottom there is (in very small print) 
"Model No. MPF82E". It works properly with the 720KiB format. Just 
remember that you have to format the medium on the 64 and NOT on the Mac/PC.

I am only wondering if you are buying the drive for this particular 
only? If so then I am afraid you might get disappointed about how 
tedious the process is if you have more than one image to be transferred 
to the 1541 that way.

At least it is to me since I have a number of other ways to do it. And 
no, none of them involves MS-DOS and StarCommander... ;-)

Michael Hunter wrote:

[...]


> In OS X (10.0 and higher), you can still read and write files to MS-DOS 
> 720K and 1.44 MB disks.  The ability to properly format (create new 
> blank disks) in the MS-DOS 720K and 1.44 MB formats is no longer 
> possible in OS X.
> 
> Rest assured, OS X will provide you with the option to format these disk 
> formats.  It will even allow you to read and write to the disk you just 
> formatted.  Unfortunately, no PC or Commodore will be able to read these 
> disks.  Although it will claim that it has properly formatted a 1.44 MB 
> MS-DOS disk, the disk will be useless in another type of computer.  Keep 
> in mind that I have only tested this in OS X versions from 10.0 through 
> 10.1.5.  Apple may or may not have corrected this in 10.2 or 10.3.

I can't say about 10.1 because to me it was only worth getting back to 
Apple's machines when they released 10.2, the first (IMHO) OS X version 
"ready for the prime time". And yes, you can format 720KiB on X but you 
won't be able to read it on the 64. Reading on a PC works fine. This is 
_probably_ ONLY due to software incompatibilities. I guess no software 
on the 64/128 can read the "vfat" format, which is what is actually used 
when formatting the medium under OS X. Mounting and using them without 
problems is possible on a PC. Just did the test and the floppy mounted 
fine on the GNU/Linux.

> 
> So, essentially, you can format new MS-DOS disks in OS 8.6 through 9.2.2 
> using an USB floppy drive.  If you want to make new blank disks, you 
> will need to perform this task in version 9.2.2 or lower.

Or just do it on the 64. Should be easier than degrading/rebooting the 
mac. Unless the OP has an older machine with one of the systems in 
question installed.

[... a long description of possible problems snipped ...]

I would say it is bad but not _that_ bad as you wrote ;-) Still I 
wouldn't buy a USB floppy for that particular purpose only.

Hello,

> "Model No. MPF82E". It works properly with the 720KiB format. Just 
> remember that you have to format the medium on the 64 and NOT on the 
> Mac/PC.

As far as I know, there are not any programs available for the Commodore 
that will properly format a MS-DOS 720K or 1.44 MB floppy disk.  I could 
be wrong there, but there are not any that I've seen so far.

If I am wrong about this, let me know.  I would love to be able to 
directly format MS-DOS disks on my C-128 using either the 1581 or fd-2000.

As for 5.25 inch disks, I do know of some that are able to format 360K 
MS-DOS disks on the Commodore using a 1571 drive.

> 
> I am only wondering if you are buying the drive for this particular 
> only? If so then I am afraid you might get disappointed about how 
> tedious the process is if you have more than one image to be transferred 
> to the 1541 that way.

It's not really tedious for me.  Of course I move files around all the 
time.  More than I could even estimate.  Now, this is definitely more 
work (and money) than I would invest for a one-time deal.  If it is only 
for a single file (or a one-time deal), then I would go with one of the 
many other file transfer methods available.

> 
> At least it is to me since I have a number of other ways to do it. And 
> no, none of them involves MS-DOS and StarCommander... ;-)

Yes, there are indeed a number of ways to move files between 
Commodore's, Mac's, and PC's without using Star Commander.  In my 
personal opinion, I prefer using the Commodore for my file transfers. 
It's more convenient than borrowing my wife's PC, exiting Windows to 
boot into DOS mode, and then waiting for Windows XP to reload.  Just 
waiting for Windows XP to shut-down and restart after I've finished 
usually takes longer than the entire file transfer process if I do it 
all on my Commodore 128 using either the FD-2000 or 1571 drive.

Now, as with all things, there are exceptions.  If you intend to 
transfer multiple disks worth of information, or create several 1541 
disks from a D64 image, then Star Commander is the way to go.  It can do 
the job faster than the Commodore can.  Of course, if you are only 
messing with 1 disk image or only have a few files that you want to move 
over, then using the Commodore is more convenient than waiting for 
Windows XP to restart in DOS mode, and then waiting again for it to re-boot.

As for a program that can be used on the Commodore, I prefer Little Red 
Reader for the C-128 and Tiny Yellow Brother for the C-64.  Both can be 
downloaded at:

http://www.csbruce.com/~csbruce/cbm/lrr/

For working with Disk Images (D64's), I like D64it and D128it, which can 
be found here:

http://www.ros.com.au/~errol/d64it.html

Anyway, best of luck to you.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

Hello,

> Or just do it on the 64. Should be easier than degrading/rebooting the 
> mac. Unless the OP has an older machine with one of the systems in 
> question installed.

Which program have you seen that could format 3.5" disks in MS-DOS 
format on the Commodore?  I must have missed that one somewhere.  It 
would definitely be a great tool.

> I would say it is bad but not _that_ bad as you wrote ;-) Still I 
> wouldn't buy a USB floppy for that particular purpose only.

It's not really all that bad.  I do it all the time.  I just wanted to 
make sure that the original poster didn't jump in and spend a whole 
bunch of money without considering the possible problems that he might 
encounter.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

Michael Hunter wrote:
> Hello,
> 
>> Or just do it on the 64. Should be easier than degrading/rebooting the 
>> mac. Unless the OP has an older machine with one of the systems in 
>> question installed.
> 
> 
> Which program have you seen that could format 3.5" disks in MS-DOS 
> format on the Commodore?  I must have missed that one somewhere.  It 
> would definitely be a great tool.
> 

BBR does it. It has a tool for formatting. I still need to find the time 
to dig the BBR inside out and make it more usable in general. But for 
the formatting it works just fine.

>> I would say it is bad but not _that_ bad as you wrote ;-) Still I 
>> wouldn't buy a USB floppy for that particular purpose only.
> 
> 
> It's not really all that bad.  I do it all the time.  I just wanted to 
> make sure that the original poster didn't jump in and spend a whole 
> bunch of money without considering the possible problems that he might 
> encounter.

Yeah. I though so but after reading all you wrote I would rather run 
away :-)

Michael Hunter wrote:

> Hello,
> 
>> "Model No. MPF82E". It works properly with the 720KiB format. Just 
>> remember that you have to format the medium on the 64 and NOT on the 
>> Mac/PC.
> 
> 
> As far as I know, there are not any programs available for the Commodore 
> that will properly format a MS-DOS 720K or 1.44 MB floppy disk.  I could 
> be wrong there, but there are not any that I've seen so far.
> 
> If I am wrong about this, let me know.  I would love to be able to 
> directly format MS-DOS disks on my C-128 using either the 1581 or fd-2000.

As I wrote in another post - I did it a couple of times using 
"format.64.prg", which is a part of BBR distribution.

[...]

> 
> It's not really tedious for me.

With a single 1581 and no FD-2000 around I find it to be rather so.

> Of course I move files around all the 
> time.

So do I :-)

> Now, as with all things, there are exceptions.  If you intend to 
> transfer multiple disks worth of information, or create several 1541 
> disks from a D64 image, then Star Commander is the way to go.  It can do 
> the job faster than the Commodore can.

I don't think it can beat d64copy, which is a part of cbm4linux...

> Of course, if you are only 
> messing with 1 disk image or only have a few files that you want to move 
> over, then using the Commodore is more convenient than waiting for 
> Windows XP to restart in DOS mode, and then waiting again for it to 
> re-boot.

.... especially if you add the rebooting times to the results. Once the 
rebooting is done - can be equally fast I guess.

> 
> As for a program that can be used on the Commodore, I prefer Little Red 
> Reader for the C-128 and Tiny Yellow Brother for the C-64.  Both can be 
> downloaded at:
> 
> http://www.csbruce.com/~csbruce/cbm/lrr/

Hm, I didn't put too much efforts into it but it never worked for me. 
The 64 version I mean. I didn't test the 128 version yet.

> 
> For working with Disk Images (D64's), I like D64it and D128it, which can 
> be found here:
> 
> http://www.ros.com.au/~errol/d64it.html
> 

Yup. Those are the tools to use. On a fast 1541 (like the Dolphin 
equipped ones) the times are quite acceptable.

Hello,

> As I wrote in another post - I did it a couple of times using 
> "format.64.prg", which is a part of BBR distribution.

I never actually got a chance to use Big Blue Reader.  I have a copy on 
order though (it should arrive in the same box as my SuperCPU once it's 
built).

The copy I have on order is the one distributed with the German manual. 
  I ordered it basically to play around with, and because I was always 
curious about it.

Maurice had a limited stock of them available at one point, so I had him 
set one aside to ship with my ever increasing standing order (the list 
of stuff I have on my order list seems to grow constantly).  I also read 
that it had the ability to work with CP/M disks, which may come in 
useful when I get a chance to start tinkering with CP/M on my 128.

> With a single 1581 and no FD-2000 around I find it to be rather so.

I guess I probably have a little more convenient setup.  I have a custom 
-built (by me) flat C-128 with ton's of built-in add-ons.  To round of 
the external portion of the computer, I have a 16 MB RAMLink, 4.5 gig 
CMD Hard Drive, CMD FD-2000, 1571 drive, external SCSI CD-ROM drive (yet 
another method of file transfer that I like), and then of course a Turbo 
232 with a Lantronix UDS-10 (to move files through my network or 
download directly through my DSL connection).

So, I guess I probably have it a bit easier when it comes to options for 
transferring files and places to put them while I'm working with them.

I really like copying them to my RAMLink, and then working with them 
there where I can get an instant reaction as I extract the archives and 
move stuff around.  Of course, the hard drive is pretty fast to, but I 
usually only put stuff on it when I'm done manipulating it.  Then it 
goes on the Hard Drive for regular use or access.

> ... especially if you add the rebooting times to the results. Once the 
> rebooting is done - can be equally fast I guess.

I always figure that into the equation.  Once I consider that time 
delay, all other speed gains are basically lost ;-)


>> http://www.csbruce.com/~csbruce/cbm/lrr
> 
> 
> Hm, I didn't put too much efforts into it but it never worked for me. 
> The 64 version I mean. I didn't test the 128 version yet.

I've only used the 64 version a few times.  Most of the time I use the 
128 version since I have the 128 on my main desk.  The 128 version works 
great.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

> BBR does it. It has a tool for formatting. I still need to find the time 
> to dig the BBR inside out and make it more usable in general. But for 
> the formatting it works just fine.

Where can that be found?

Supertopcheckerbunny wrote:
>> BBR does it. It has a tool for formatting. I still need to find the 
>> time to dig the BBR inside out and make it more usable in general. But 
>> for the formatting it works just fine.
> 
> 
> Where can that be found?
> 

I don't know. I got a copy in order to do the analysis and some fixes to 
it. As far as I understood from another post, if you are prepared to 
wait forever, you might order it from famous Mr. Maurice.

Supertopcheckerbunny <remove-this.lotek64@aon.remove-this.at> wrote in message news:<4131a5d1$1@e-post.inode.at>...
> > BBR does it. It has a tool for formatting. I still need to find the time 
> > to dig the BBR inside out and make it more usable in general. But for 
> > the formatting it works just fine.
> 
> Where can that be found?

Big Blue Reader is copyrighted. An Overview can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/cxfers/cxfers.html

An Alternative is Little Red Reader which can be found at
http://www.csbruce.com/~csbruce/cbm/lrr/

Its a loong Time since I used LRR (c64-lrr->msdos-disk->amiga
crossdos), nowadays I am using womos copy1581 or Linux built-in
support for 1581-disks.

I am not an Apple User, but it might be possible to go the Linux way
on OS X, to read 1581-disks via dd.

Have Fun,
Zed Yago

Michael Hunter wrote:

> Hello,
> 
>> As I wrote in another post - I did it a couple of times using 
>> "format.64.prg", which is a part of BBR distribution.
> 
> 
> I never actually got a chance to use Big Blue Reader.  I have a copy on 
> order though (it should arrive in the same box as my SuperCPU once it's 
> built).
> 
> The copy I have on order is the one distributed with the German manual. 
>  I ordered it basically to play around with, and because I was always 
> curious about it.

Huh, you mean it still doesn't count as abandonware?! I believe the 
company that produced it is out of business for ages, isn't it so? Or is 
it again Mr. Maurice that got all the rights for himself? :-(

> 
> Maurice had a limited stock of them available at one point, so I had him 
> set one aside to ship with my ever increasing standing order (the list 
> of stuff I have on my order list seems to grow constantly).

You know... that's the way it works if you ONLY add things to the 
list... :-)

> 
>> With a single 1581 and no FD-2000 around I find it to be rather so.
> 
> 
> I guess I probably have a little more convenient setup.  I have a custom 
> -built (by me) flat C-128 with ton's of built-in add-ons.  To round of 
> the external portion of the computer, I have a 16 MB RAMLink, 4.5 gig 
> CMD Hard Drive, CMD FD-2000, 1571 drive, external SCSI CD-ROM drive (yet 
> another method of file transfer that I like), and then of course a Turbo 
> 232 with a Lantronix UDS-10 (to move files through my network or 
> download directly through my DSL connection).
> 
> So, I guess I probably have it a bit easier when it comes to options for 
> transferring files and places to put them while I'm working with them.
> 

Well, I don't complain of my setup (I can write the files directly to 
the 1541/71/81 disks or to the IDE64 harddrive/CF plus I can use C2N232 
interface plus, plus... :-) but I guess the OP had a limited number of 
choices since he wanted to buy USB floppy to transfer the files with 
1581. As far as I guessed (out of pure probability being a bit higher) 
that he's got only one of them.

> Big Blue Reader is copyrighted. An Overview can be found at
> http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/cxfers/cxfers.html

Thanks for the link. In other words: It's a piece of software which is 
copyrighted and exclusively sold by Maurice. Sorry to hear that.

Zed Yago wrote:

> 
> Big Blue Reader is copyrighted. An Overview can be found at
> http://www.geocities.com/profdredd/cxfers/cxfers.html

I followed the link to:

http://www.sogwap.net/sogwap/bbr_features.htm

and read in the last paragraph:

"Big Blue Reader is no longer available."

Hello,

> Huh, you mean it still doesn't count as abandonware?! I believe the 
> company that produced it is out of business for ages, isn't it so? Or is 

I think someone posted that it was no longer being sold from by it's 
author a couple of weeks ago in another thread.

It might be possible that the author / distributor (SOGWAP Software) 
might be willing to work out a licensing deal with someone else or 
possibly be so generous as to make it "freeware" if someone were to ask 
him very nicely.

> it again Mr. Maurice that got all the rights for himself? :-(

I think CMD featured it regularly in their old Commodore catalogs (I 
still have a few somewhere around here).  I don't know if CMD had a 
distribution or production license, or if they simply resold packages 
produced by SOGWAP.

If they had a production license, then that may have inherited the 
distribution license.  As I understood it though, the package that he 
has waiting to ship with my order was simply something he found in the 
stuff he purchased from CMD.

> Well, I don't complain of my setup (I can write the files directly to 
> the 1541/71/81 disks or to the IDE64 harddrive/CF plus I can use C2N232 

I've never had a chance to play around with the IDE64 interface.  I was 
really interested in it at one point, and think it is an excellent 
option.  Unfortunately, I spend so much time in 128-mode that I just 
couldn't spend the money on an option that would only work in 64-mode.

For people that use 64-mode more dominantly, or use a Commodore 64 
computer primarily, then the ID64 is probably a great option.

I myself almost gave up on 128 systems several years back, but after I 
sold my 128 and went back to only using my 64, I found that I just plain 
missed my 128-mode.  I guess you never realize how much you use the 
128-mode until it's gone ;-)

I still use 64-mode for some tasks and running C-64 titles, but I really 
like 80-column 128-mode.

And of course, I still have a few C-64 computers setup around the house 
for other uses.  I even have one for my baby girl.  She loves typing on 
the keyboard.  And naturally, she doesn't care if it is on or off.  It's 
great to her either way.

> interface plus, plus... :-) but I guess the OP had a limited number of 
> choices since he wanted to buy USB floppy to transfer the files with 
> 1581. As far as I guessed (out of pure probability being a bit higher) 
> that he's got only one of them.

That would be my guess as well.  Of course, once he gets a whole bunch 
of titles moved over, he may decide he wants a few more toys to add to 
his system.  Isn't that the way it all starts? ;-)

My configuration started out innocently enough several years ago with a 
humble VIC-20 with a Tape drive on a black and white television.  From 
there it just got worse.  I saw a 64 at a friends house and just had to 
have it.

About 5 or 6 years later, when the C-64 was getting older, I was finally 
able to afford one.  That one also started out quite humble (just a C-64 
and 13" color T.V.).  And of course based on my previous post, you can 
guess what that led to.

It all starts with one toy, and then another, and another ......

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

Douglas Carroll <dcarroll14@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<dcarroll14-B16CB2.13081228082004@news4.west.earthlink.net>...
> Hello!  I am looking to purchase a USB floppy drive for my Macintosh in 
> order to transfer .d64 files from the internet back to my 1581 and I 
> remember a few people on the group here saying that they owned these 
> drives and that they worked fine for this.  Would anyone out there who 
> has one of these who has used it for this purpose please let me know the 
> brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
> one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
> with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
> floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
> uses.

Here I am again kvetching about Little Red
Reader.  This time my complaints are more limited.
 
I formatted a 720 KBYTE disk on my old TOSHIBA laptop and wrote a 22
KBYTE
file on the disk. The TOSHIBA was running WINDOWS 98 but I think
TOSHIBA
installed WINDOWS 95 on it originally.  I inserted the disk in a 1581
and
both BIG BLUE READER and LRR from a LOADSTAR disk could read and copy
the
file without problems.  The same version of LRR successfully wrote a
650 KBYTE file on a 720 K MSDOS disk inserted in a 1581 about 3 weeks
ago.
My versions of LRR 2.6 and 2.7 are unable to read the file written by
the
TOSHIBA. A couple of weeks ago, somebody here said he had success
using
LRR2.70 with 3.5 disks. The LOADSTAR program reports that it's version
is 2.0>

My IMATION 120MB SUPER DISK drive excepts the same kind of disks that
are used by 1581's and CMD floppy drives.  Although I used it only
with PC's, I have purchased 120 MBdisks preformatted for MACINTOSH's. 
Unfo

I accidently posted this message before it was complete.
Please pardon my clumsy use of USER FRIENDLY (?) devices.


Douglas Carroll <dcarroll14@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<dcarroll14-B16CB2.13081228082004@news4.west.earthlink.net>...
> Hello!  I am looking to purchase a USB floppy drive for my Macintosh in 
> order to transfer .d64 files from the internet back to my 1581 and I 
> remember a few people on the group here saying that they owned these 
> drives and that they worked fine for this.  Would anyone out there who 
> has one of these who has used it for this purpose please let me know the 
> brand of their drive and possibly the model number so I can purchase 
> one?  All of the drives that I have looked at only state that they work 
> with 1.44 high density 3.5" disks and I want to make sure that the usb 
> floppy that I purchase works with the low density disks that the 1581 
> uses.
> 

Here I am again kvetching about Little Red
Reader.  This time my complaints are more limited.
 
I formatted a 720 KBYTE disk on my old TOSHIBA laptop and wrote a 22
KBYTE file on the disk. The TOSHIBA was running WINDOWS 98 but I think
TOSHIBA installed WINDOWS 95 on it originally.  I inserted the disk
in a 1581 and both BIG BLUE READER and LRR2.0 can read and copy the
file without problems.  The same version of LRR successfully wrote a
650 KBYTE file on a 720 K MSDOS disk inserted in a 1581 about 3 weeks
ago.  My versions of LRR 2.6 and 2.7 are unable to read the file
written by the TOSHIBA. A couple of weeks ago, somebody here said he
had success using LRR2.70 with 3.5 inch disks.

My IMATION 120MB SUPER DISK drive excepts the same kind of disks
that are used by 1581's and CMD floppy drives.  Although I used it
only with PC's, I have purchased 120 MB SUPsks preformatted for
MACINTOSH's.  I don't know how they hook up to a MAC but on PC's,
120 MB SUPER disk drives connect to the computer's printer port.
Unfortunately, IMATION no longer makes these versatle drives/

In the past, I needed to send a 760 KBYTE graphics file from a
Commodore to a PC.  Without A CMD floppy drive, I was forced to use
NOVATERM 10 sending data through a SWIFTLink cartridge which in turn
was connected to a null modem.  You may find yourself needing to
send large files between computers and won't be able to use disks.

Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
> 
> Here I am again kvetching about Little Red
> Reader.  This time my complaints are more limited.
>  
> I formatted a 720 KBYTE disk on my old TOSHIBA laptop and wrote a 22
> KBYTE
> file on the disk. [...] I inserted the disk in a 1581
> and
> both BIG BLUE READER and LRR from a LOADSTAR disk could read and copy
> the
> file without problems.  [...]
> My versions of LRR 2.6 and 2.7 are unable to read the file written by
> the
> TOSHIBA. A couple of weeks ago, somebody here said he had success
> using
> LRR2.70 with 3.5 disks. The LOADSTAR program reports that it's version
> is 2.0>
> 

So is it that the newer versions can't do it while the older one can?

silverdr <silverdr@inet.remove.it.pl> wrote in message news:<4134522f$1@news.inet.com.pl>...

> So is it that the newer versions can't do it while the older one can?

My computer programs are like table cloths.  When smoothing
out the wrinkles in one area, wrinkles turn up in a completely
different location.  Fixing program problems, creats more
problems.  Then when inserting temporary code to clarify
the nature of the problems, the debugging code creats even
more problems.  My disease is that I enjoy this punishment.
I need psyciatric help.  Only the HELP key is available.

Hello Paul,

Paul Rosenzweig wrote:

> My versions of LRR 2.6 and 2.7 are unable to read the file written by
> the
> TOSHIBA. A couple of weeks ago, somebody here said he had success
> using
> LRR2.70 with 3.5 disks. The LOADSTAR program reports that it's version
> is 2.0>

What you describe sounds very unusual to me.  I have never used LRR 2.6, 
so I cannot speak for that version.  I have used LRR 2.70 quite 
extensively with several different C-128 computers (all of them the 
"flat" version), and never had a single problem.  I would estimate that 
I have probably used LRR for around 3 years, and probably transfered 
atleast a thousand or two-thousand disks with it in that time.

Of course, almost all of them in the last 2 years have been using the 
CMD FD-2000.  Prior to obtaining the FD-2000, I used a 1581 drive.  With 
it's original mechanism installed, I had tons of problems as I outlined 
in my previous post (due to the difference between the PC and 1581 
drive's read / write heads).

After converting the 1581 to use a standard PC 1.44 MB drive (still 
limited to reading / writing 720K disks), I never had another single 
problem transferring files using the LRR 2.70 and my modified 1581 drive.

It would be interesting to try and determine where the problem is 
occuring in your setup.

Also, you mentioned problems occurring when you tried inserting new code 
into the LRR 2.70 program.  I myself tinkered with enhancing LRR 2.70 
for a little while.  I also found that the program would become 
partially corrupt when additional program lines were inserted.

I spoke with Craig Bruce about this briefly, and he explained that the 
program utilizes almost all of the C-128's memory.  He further explained 
that you might possibly come up with another 2K (+/-) of usable RAM if 
you were to relocate the machine language routines into another 
location.  Of course, that would also require adjusting the program to 
reflect the new addresses.

It's been quite some time since I've tinkered with modifying the program 
(about 2 years), so I can't remember all the specifics.  Maybe if I ever 
get the time again, I'll resume tinkering with the enhancements I wanted 
to add.  Of course, who knows if the time will ever show up ;-)

I take care of my baby girl, so right now my time for the next 18 to 20 
years is committed ;-)

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

r_u_sure@mybluelight.com (Paul Rosenzweig) wrote in message news:<dda6e12f.0408310736.792eef62@posting.google.com>...
> silverdr <silverdr@inet.remove.it.pl> wrote in message news:<4134522f$1@news.inet.com.pl>...

(concerning reading 3 weeks old 3.5" Disks)
Blame it on the Hardware!
I had extremely disappointing Experience concerning the lifetime of
PC-3.5 Disks, some of them wore out after a couple of Days.
Can you read the Disk back to your PC, or does only LRR have Problems
?


> I need psyciatric help.  Only the HELP key is available.

I need to clean my Home. Pressing CLR/HOME did not help.

Michael Hunter <mhunter@videocam.net.au> wrote in message news:<10j9fekkuii2h0c@corp.supernews.com>...

> Of course, almost all of them in the last 2 years have been
> using the CMD FD-2000.  Prior to obtaining the FD-2000, I used
> a 1581 drive.  With it's original mechanism installed, I had
> tons of> problems as I outlined in my previous post (due to the
> difference between the PC and 1581 drive's read / write heads).

I am using only a 1581.  Our experiences are now consistent.

Hello Paul,

Paul Rosenzweig wrote:

> I am using only a 1581.  Our experiences are now consistent.

O.K., that must be the problem.  It's probably the fault of the 
difference that exists between the low-density mechanism in the 1581 and 
the high-density mechanism in most PC's.  There are two possible 
solutions that may help you out.

The easiest solution might be to obtain a 720K drive mechanism for the 
PC.  This would result in providing the PC with the same type of read / 
write head that you have in your 1581 drive.  You could probably obtain 
one from an early model PC with one of the first generations of 3.5" 
drive mechanisms.  An XT-class machine with a 3.5" drive would be a 
likely candidate.

The other option, is to convert a 1.44 MB PC mechanism to work in the 
1581.  This would provide your 1581 with the same type of read / write 
head used in PC's with high-density drives.  Unfortunately, this method 
requires a bit of tinkering.  If you want to try something like this, 
e-mail me directly, and I will see if I can find the information I have 
on performing this modification.

For the second option, you need a PC-type 1.44 MB floppy mechanism that 
can be configured as drive-select 0 (in hardware) either with a switch 
or a jumper.  In my own testing, I found that adjusting the drive-select 
number using the cable was unreliable.  You'll also need a resistor, and 
a soldering iron for best results.

Anyway, if you want the details for this modification, e-mail me and 
I'll look through my papers.

Short of those two option (and of course purchasing the CMD FD-2000 
drive), I don't know of another viable solution that utilizes 720K 
floppy disks.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

yihq@2nybbles.com (Zed Yago) writes:

>>I need psyciatric help.  Only the HELP key is available.

>I need to clean my Home. Pressing CLR/HOME did not help.

I'm a control freak. Keeping my finger on the CONTROL key, however, makes
it difficult to type printable characters.

--
      Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
                personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
  ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
                  ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **

* Cameron Kaiser <ckaiser@floodgap.com> wrote:
|
| yihq@2nybbles.com (Zed Yago) writes:
|
|>>I need psyciatric help.  Only the HELP key is available.
|
|>I need to clean my Home. Pressing CLR/HOME did not help.
|
| I'm a control freak. Keeping my finger on the CONTROL key, however, makes
| it difficult to type printable characters.

IT IS NOT QUITE AS BAD FOR THOSE OF US WHO WORK SHIFTS.

-- 
Lars Haugseth

Michael Hunter <mhunter@videocam.net.au> wrote in message news:<10jakvc537jb15@corp.supernews.com>...
> Hello Paul,
> 
> Paul Rosenzweig wrote:
> 
> > I am using only a 1581.  Our experiences are now consistent.
> 
> O.K., that must be the problem.  It's probably the fault of
> the difference that exists between the low-density mechanism
> in the 1581 and  the high-density mechanism in most PC's.
> There are two possible  solutions that may help you out.

None of your suggestions is feasable for me.  My solutions are to use
either BIG BLUE READER, LITTLE READ READER 2.00, or use NOVATERM 10
to send the data through my SWIFTLink cartridge and my null modem.

What I don't understand is whats BBR and LRR2.0 doing
right, and whats LRR2.6 and LRR2.7 doing wrong?

Hello Paul,

> What I don't understand is whats BBR and LRR2.0 doing
> right, and whats LRR2.6 and LRR2.7 doing wrong?

That is an interesting question.  I have never used the BBR or any 
version of LRR prior to 2.7, so I can't really compare them myself.

It would be interesting to see what the difference is that allows the 
older programs to read the disks more accurately in your situation.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

Paul Rosenzweig wrote:

> 
> What I don't understand is whats BBR and LRR2.0 doing
> right, and whats LRR2.6 and LRR2.7 doing wrong?

Is BTW your LRR2.0 accompanied by the corresponding TYB? I never had any 
success with TYB. Might be of the same reason...

"Michael Hunter" <mhunter@videocam.net.au> wrote ...

>> What I don't understand is whats BBR and LRR2.0 doing
>> right, and whats LRR2.6 and LRR2.7 doing wrong?
>
> That is an interesting question.  I have never used the BBR or any
> version of LRR prior to 2.7, so I can't really compare them myself.
>
> It would be interesting to see what the difference is that allows the
> older programs to read the disks more accurately in your situation.

I'm afraid that I can only add to the confusion.  Versions of LRR prior to
2.6 would not work at all for me.  2.6 was not reliable with my 1581's.  LRR
2.7 works perfectly for me.

-- 
Best regards,

Sam Gillett

Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!

Michael Hunter <mhunter@videocam.net.au> wrote in message news:<10jbv1k7fgk7h27@corp.supernews.com>...

> > What I don't understand is whats BBR and LRR2.0 doing
> > right, and whats LRR2.6 and LRR2.7 doing wrong?
> 
> That is an interesting question.  I have never used the BBR or any 
> version of LRR prior to 2.7, so I can't really compare them myself.
> 
> It would be interesting to see what the difference is that allows the 
> older programs to read the disks more accurately in your situation.

Maybe Dr. Bruce needed to add an FD-X000 disk drive capability
and wrecked the 1581 code.  Perhaps FD commands are being issued
to the 1581.  Maybe the later versions of LRR are reading stuff
from or writing stuff to the wrong PC sectors on a 1581 disk.
Did you ever try writing a 720 KBYTE disk in your FD 2000?  Your
suggestions for installing a PC mechanism in a 1581 may not
work.  A perfect case where something that worked was "fixed"
or at least enhanced.  Please see my response to silverdr in
this same thread concerning the joys of program development
and debugging.  If you want, I can send you the LRR2.00
update.  IIRC, you are up to your eyballs with other matters.

Hello Paul,

Paul Rosenzweig wrote:

> Maybe Dr. Bruce needed to add an FD-X000 disk drive capability
> and wrecked the 1581 code.  Perhaps FD commands are being issued

I don't remember the specifics regarding how the two drives are handled 
in LRR, but it does seem like I remember reading something that 
indicated that 1581 support was implemented before FD-2000 support.  Of 
course, I could be remembering that incorrectly.

I do know that LRR was discussed in great detail as it was being 
developed in the "Commodore Hacking" e-magazine.  Perhaps revisiting 
those articles would help to clear up the specifics about the code as it 
relates to 3.5" drives.

> to the 1581.  Maybe the later versions of LRR are reading stuff
> from or writing stuff to the wrong PC sectors on a 1581 disk.
 > Did you ever try writing a 720 KBYTE disk in your FD 2000?  Your

Yes, I have produced several 720K floppy disks in my FD-2000.  I 
actually have more 720K disks than I do 1.44 MB disks.  I only use 1.44 
MB floppies to transfer files between the PC or Mac and my Commodore 
128.  Everything else is done on 720K disks so that I can use the disks 
on both my 128 (with it's FD-2000 drive) and my 64 with it's 1581 drive.

I have also verified that my 1581 can read the disks produced in the 
FD-2000 using both the original drive mechanism installed by Commodore, 
and also using the PC-type 1.44 MB mechanism that I had installed in it 
for a couple of years.

For the couple of years that I did have the PC-type 1.44 MB mechanism 
installed in my 1581, it worked flawlessly with standard 720K disks.  It 
also read disks that were produced in the PC 100% accurrately.

Eventually, when my FD-2000 arrived, I removed the PC-type 1.44 MB drive 
mechanism from my 1581 drive and re-installed the original 1581 drive 
mechanism.  This was done only because I now had the FD-2000 to transfer 
files with, and the eject button on the PC-type mechanism did not 
line-up right with the hole in the 1581's case.  This made ejecting 
disks a little inconvenient.

Since re-installing the 1581's original drive mechanism back into the 
1581, it has regained it's unreliable nature when reading 720K disks 
formatted on a PC compatible computer with a 1.44 MB mechanism.

Interestingly enough, the disks that I had written in the 1581 drive 
when it had the 1.44 MB mechanism are still able to be read in the 1581 
with it's factory mechanism re-installed.  Likewise, 720K disks 
formatted and written in the FD-2000 work just fine as well.

The only apparent incompatibility is with 720K disks that were written 
in a high-density drive that was installed in a PC.

Note that this does not include disks written using 1581 copy on a PC. 
I have found that disks written using 1581 copy on a PC read just fine.

> suggestions for installing a PC mechanism in a 1581 may not
> work.  A perfect case where something that worked was "fixed"
> or at least enhanced.  Please see my response to silverdr in

As mentioned above, and in my previous post, I performed such a 
transplant myself and it worked great.  The only thing I disliked about 
it was the fact that the eject button on the PC 1.44 MB mechanism did 
not line up right with the hole provided in the 1581's plastic case.  If 
it wasn't for that one small detail, it would have been perfect.  As 
mentioned above, this minor inconvenience was enough to prompt me to 
re-install the original mechanism in the 1581 when my FD-2000 arrived. 
Since I have the FD-2000, it didn't matter anymore if the 1581 could 
read MS-DOS disks anymore.

> this same thread concerning the joys of program development


As mentioned in my previous post.  LRR uses almost all of the 128's 
available memory.  This does indeed cause problems when or if you 
attempt to add additional lines of code to the basic program.  The only 
way around that is probably to optimize the code further, or remove some 
features.  Otherwise, it might be possible as I mentioned in my previous 
post to free up a few kilobytes by re-locating the machine-language 
routines.

 > and debugging.  If you want, I can send you the LRR2.00
 > update.  IIRC, you are up to your eyballs with other matters.

Yes, I do keep quite busy.  If I get a chance (not likely), I might try 
to re-read the development notes in the Commodore Hacking magazine for 
additional clues that might lead to an explanation as to why you find 
one version more reliable than another.

That is definitely strange, and would lead me to believe that your 
problem may not be 100% hardware related.

Michael Hunter
mhunter@videocam.net.au

"Paul Rosenzweig" <r_u_sure@mybluelight.com> wrote ...

> Maybe Dr. Bruce needed to add an FD-X000 disk drive capability
> and wrecked the 1581 code.  Perhaps FD commands are being issued
> to the 1581.  Maybe the later versions of LRR are reading stuff
> from or writing stuff to the wrong PC sectors on a 1581 disk.
> Did you ever try writing a 720 KBYTE disk in your FD 2000?  Your
> suggestions for installing a PC mechanism in a 1581 may not
> work.  A perfect case where something that worked was "fixed"
> or at least enhanced.  Please see my response to silverdr in
> this same thread concerning the joys of program development
> and debugging.  If you want, I can send you the LRR2.00
> update.  IIRC, you are up to your eyballs with other matters.

Version 2.0 of LRR works perfectly with my flat C128 and 1581 drives.
However, there are a couple of things I learned to avoid doing.

1. Do not format the MS-DOS disk with any Windows version above 3.xx.  You
may use pre-formatted disks on the PC side.  If you can't find any
pre-formatted DD disks (720 kb), download DR-DOS from Digital Research and
boot into that to format your disks.

2. Do not use long filenames on the MS-DOS disk.  If any of the files you
want to copy to your C128 have filenames that do not fit in the MS-DOS 8.3
format, rename them before trying to use LRR with them.

3. Make sure the proper drive types have been selected when setting up LRR
before the actual file transfer.

Hope this helps, because I _know_ that LRR 2.70 works for me.    :-)

-- 
Best regards,

Sam Gillett

Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!

"Sam Gillett" <samgillettnospam@diespammermsn.com> wrote in message news:<3bxZc.4562$_%3.4141@trnddc06>...
> 
> 1. Do not format the MS-DOS disk with any Windows version above 3.xx.  You
> may use pre-formatted disks on the PC side.  If you can't find any
> pre-formatted DD disks (720 kb), download DR-DOS from Digital Research and
> boot into that to format your disks.
> 
Data can be transmitted between my C128D running LRR2.0 and disks
ormatted on my old TOSHIBA SATELITE WINDOWS 98 and IBM THINPAD WINDOWS
95 systemS.  BBR displays the expected file entries from directories
on the same disks plus many spurious file entries that are clearly
systems info used by the PC.  Everything goes ok when BBR retrieves
the files with directory entries that are also recognized by WINDOWS
95.  WINDOWS 95 systems can read files written by LRR2.00 and BBR.
I haven't done all possible operations with my IMATION 120 mb SUPER
DISK drive connected to an XP system but everything's ok so far.