Hi Everyone,

Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people 
choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?

Is it an issue of running liking a particular BBS program that is only 
available on the C-64/C-128?

Is it an issue of running a program that supports PETSCII and 40 column 
screens?

Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"

Maybe because it's more fun?

Something else?

It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their 
C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS. 
Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?

Just wondering...

I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and 
maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something 
like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since 
it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.

Has anyone tried (not sure if technically possible) to run a Telnet BBS 
program from WinVICE?

MikeC

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 19:00:23 -0400, MikeC <MikeC@nospam.com> wrote:

>Hi Everyone,
>
>Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people 
>choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?
>
>Is it an issue of running liking a particular BBS program that is only 
>available on the C-64/C-128?
>
>Is it an issue of running a program that supports PETSCII and 40 column 
>screens?
>
>Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"
>
>Maybe because it's more fun?
>
>Something else?

Probably for the same reasons we still use our C-64's and other 8-bit
stuff in the first place.  Sure, the modern machines do things faster
easier, and have a lot more storage, but for many, the sheer challenge
of doing it with an "old, antiquated" piece of hardware is worthwhile
in itself. Sort of like a certain subset of us Ham radio operators
that still use CW (Morse Code), RadioTeletype (using original model 33
TTY terminals!) and other old transmission modes in this modern age of
digital and satellite communications. 

>It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their 
>C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS. 
>Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?
>
>Just wondering...

The famous 3-word answer applies:  "Because its there." <g>

As soon as I get some disks in so I can run in true hardware mode with
1541's, I'm going to try to find an ISP that still offers shell
accounts and allows 1200/2400bps connections, and get on the net with
DesTerm. <g>

>I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and 
>maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something 
>like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since 
>it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.

Actually, I want to get eother Andy Milners old "Remote Access" or
"WildCat BBS" running and perhaps, telnettable.  It's old DOS, not
Commodore, but I like bith packages. I intend to make it mostly a
Commodore oriented BBS, but running on a 386 or 486 with maybe 200mb
worth of hard drive. I don't relish destroying my 1571's and 1581's
ruinning them and a Commie box 24/7/365.  I remember the late 80's
when I ran one on a C-128, and 4 1581's.  Dang, I forget the
software's name, though...

>Has anyone tried (not sure if technically possible) to run a Telnet BBS 
>program from WinVICE?

Hmmm...That;s an idea....



>MikeC

MikeC wrote:
> 
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people
> choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?
> 
> Is it an issue of running liking a particular BBS program that is only
> available on the C-64/C-128?

Yes, for many reasons:
- PC BBSs I've used have lousy message subboards - all the junk loped
into one group without any good order. Many of the Commodore BBSs go
initial post,response,response,response; very logical.
- PC BBSs usually aren't user modifyable most of the code for 'doors'
are encrypted or compiled, etc.  Everything a sysop would like to do on
their BBS always seemed to cost something.  BBSs like C-Net and Image
used BASIC modules, easy to write, tweak or debug.
- PC Boards didn't support Commodore U/D protocols (especially Punter)
which many Commodore Callers would require for a hassle free U/D.

> Is it an issue of running a program that supports PETSCII and 40 column
> screens?

Yep, PETASCII is such a cool standard a lot more compact then IBM
graphics/ANSI escape codes.  And with a little BASIC programming you
could do some cool programatic stuff.

> Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"

More like: We were here first, so why change.  I started my BBS in 1987
back when Commodore, Apple and Atari BBSs were more the norm.  I saw the
'beemer boards flood the BBS lists and after a few years disappear just
as quickly when AOL and the internet started taking hold. 

> Maybe because it's more fun?

I think Commodore BBSs lend themselves to a more close knit community,
on a PC BBS you get a lot of what the internet is flame wards and
messages flooding via FIDOnet.  Commodore networks were between
commodore BBSs and the messages were more manageabme and usually well
moderated.  The people were usually local which lends itself to BBS
parties.  It was fun.

> Something else?
> 
> It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their
> C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS.
> Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?

Yes, but it was like the 90s, were there were hundreds of WWIV and
Wildcat BBSs, no real identity.  Even on a stock commodoe BBS you stood
out from the crowd.

> Just wondering...
> 
> I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and
> maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something
> like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since
> it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.
> 
> Has anyone tried (not sure if technically possible) to run a Telnet BBS
> program from WinVICE?

Haven't heard of anyone.. I know Image is kinda picky about running on
Commdore hardware (something in the drive access coding). 

Larry

-- 
01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101
   Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS  (209) 754-1363 
300-14.4k bps
       Set your 8-bit C= rigs to sail for http://www.portcommodore.com/
01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011

MikeC <MikeC@nospam.com> wrote in news:vobq5dqmdfi061@corp.supernews.com:

> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people 
> choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?
<<< Snip >>>

Simply put, more of the Commodore BBS software are by far more 
sophisticated than even the PC based BBSs. I for one have been on both PC 
and C= based BBS. C= BBSs support PETSCII / Commodore C/G (PETSCII in 
Color). Most PC BBSs are limited to 7 or 8 colors due to the ANSI 
protocol whereas C= BBSs supporting Commodore C/G gives both 16 colors 
and full PETSCII text support.

BBS programs like Centepede for the C-128 supports a more functional 
Message Base system and often better Security level system. Most C= BBSs 
are virtually hack proof if key sysop features are set local and at sysop 
level and have its own password. This is considered a key piece that a 
GOOD Sysop does. Also many of the new BBSs for C= are supporting HDs and 
support for IDE HDs and eventually the future generation BBS system for 
the C= 8 bits and especially the C-One will also be FAR more capable than 
anything we have ever imagined before. For example 256 color text for 
starters and perhaps support for HTML or something somewhat similar may 
come to existance. 

"MikeC" <MikeC@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:vobq5dqmdfi061@corp.supernews.com...

Hi Mike,

> Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people
> choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?

I've been wondering the same thing...and I'm running one :-)


> Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"

Mostly this.  I ran a C64 BBS way back in the 80s in Manitoba with a friend,
and it was a lot of fun.  We felt so high-tech and pioneering - electronic
messaging and so on, which everyone takes for granted today but was just
emerging in those days. Plus, we were offering a service to our community
which was rewarding.  Now that I have the know-how, I just wondered if it
would be possible to put it on the Internet without massive effort (new
hardware, etc.)  So I tried it just for the challenge.


> It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their
> C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS.
> Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?

It's really quite easy to run the C64 BBS over Telnet, and inexpensive as
well.  I had a C64 and 1541 that I wasn't using.   I got a VIC 1011A serial
interface from eBay for around $5, and bought a null modem cable from Radio
Shack for around $8.  The bridging software (which I wrote myself) is really
not that complicated, it's Visual Basic and I wrote it in about 3 evenings.
The only real ongoing expense is $5/month from my ISP for a fixed IP, and
the few cents of power the 64/1541 use.

Here's the most interesting part, though:   I set it up back in April for
fun, and made a posting here along the lines of "If I get 20 callers, I'll
keep it up for a while".   As of last night, I had 723 callers to the board,
with over 300 people registered!  I've had to prune the userlist twice to
make room for new users :-)

So as it turned out, it's been worthwhile for more than just my own
curiosity.  I get some very emotional feedback from users who appreciate the
nostalgic experience of calling a C64 BBS again.  So I keep it running for
them.  I've already done what I set out to do.  :-)


> I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and
> maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something
> like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since

Someone else is setting up a Color 64 BBS using my software, I'll let you
know how he makes out with it.

> it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.

You're also in Toronto??!  I'm in North York.   If you're serious about
setting a BBS up, I could drop by and give you a hand with it.

Regards
Leif

--
Call Negative Format BBS - Hosted on a real C64!
Telnet to  c64bbs.no-ip.com  or 209.151.141.59   Port 23
http://home.ica.net/~leifb/bbs/

Hi Jack,

Jack wrote:

> worth of hard drive. I don't relish destroying my 1571's and 1581's
> ruinning them and a Commie box 24/7/365.  I remember the late 80's

Yeah...that's exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure a BBS, when getting 
a fair number of calls, will eventually take its toll on your 15xx 
drives so is it really worth it?

Mike

Hi Larry,

Larry Anderson wrote:
> Yes, but it was like the 90s, were there were hundreds of WWIV and
> Wildcat BBSs, no real identity.  Even on a stock commodoe BBS you stood
> out from the crowd.

Yes, that's a good point. My very first experience with a BBS was 
visiting a friend's house, he was an Atari guy, and he logged into The 
Bat Cave. Let me tell you, this site was amazing! It had such character! 
  I bought a modem within the week and jumped right into the scene.

I was always impressed by the various BBS persona's, if you can call it 
that. Which is another reason why I was so turned on by boards using 
color, such as Color 64 and DarkStar. I was like entering a new world.

Mike

Hi Leif,

Leif Bloomquist wrote:
> well.  I had a C64 and 1541 that I wasn't using.   I got a VIC 1011A serial

Funny, I've never heard of such a device until now...and I've been using 
Commodore's since the Vic-20 first came out.


> You're also in Toronto??!  I'm in North York.   If you're serious about
> setting a BBS up, I could drop by and give you a hand with it.

Technically, I'm in Leaside so for all I know, you're living right next 
door. ;)

Yeah...getting some help would be great. I have to figure out a bunch of 
things first, like what hardware and software I'm going to run.

Again, I'm not sure if I do want to do this on actual C-64 hardware but 
I'm definitely looking into all the possibilities.

Thanks,

MikeC

MikeC,

Here are some of the reasons I run The Warpzone:

 * I couldn't afford to run a Commodore BBS back in the day.  And when
I did, I ran a large multiline BBS with MajorBBS software.
 * I've tried running PC based BBS's lately, no one uses them. Why
would they, there is still a few of them out there, and there's
nothing unique about them.
 * Nastolgia.  With a great user base now on comp.sys.cbm, it seems
the Commodore 64 community is here to stay.  So it's fun to bring up
all the old software.
 * Also, some very cool games were written for Commodore BBS systems! 
Have you noticed some of them have simularities to modern programs? 
Like Empire reminds me of Barron Realms Elite...
 * Most importantly, besides the multiline BBS, this is the most
successful BBS I've ran to date!

Thank you,

Tommy Watt


I MikeC <MikeC@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<vobq5dqmdfi061@corp.supernews.com>...
> Hi Everyone,
> 
> Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people 
> choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?
> 
> Is it an issue of running liking a particular BBS program that is only 
> available on the C-64/C-128?
> 
> Is it an issue of running a program that supports PETSCII and 40 column 
> screens?
> 
> Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"
> 
> Maybe because it's more fun?
> 
> Something else?
> 
> It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their 
> C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS. 
> Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?
> 
> Just wondering...
> 
> I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and 
> maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something 
> like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since 
> it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.
> 
> Has anyone tried (not sure if technically possible) to run a Telnet BBS 
> program from WinVICE?
> 
> MikeC

Do you folks know of any BBS on dial up in Canada?

The FAQ lists a number in Oshawa, bu it is not in service.

Bubba



On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 13:40:54 GMT, "Leif Bloomquist" <abuse@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

>"MikeC" <MikeC@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:vobq5dqmdfi061@corp.supernews.com...
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>> Not to sound like a troll or anything but I was wondering why people
>> choose to run BBS's off their C-64 or C-128's instead of a PC?
>
>I've been wondering the same thing...and I'm running one :-)
>
>
>> Is it an issue of "I can therefore I will?"
>
>Mostly this.  I ran a C64 BBS way back in the 80s in Manitoba with a friend,
>and it was a lot of fun.  We felt so high-tech and pioneering - electronic
>messaging and so on, which everyone takes for granted today but was just
>emerging in those days. Plus, we were offering a service to our community
>which was rewarding.  Now that I have the know-how, I just wondered if it
>would be possible to put it on the Internet without massive effort (new
>hardware, etc.)  So I tried it just for the challenge.
>
>
>> It seems like a few people are going through hoops to get their
>> C-64/C-128's connected to the Internet and running a Telnet BBS.
>> Wouldn't it just be easier to run a Telnet BBS right from a PC?
>
>It's really quite easy to run the C64 BBS over Telnet, and inexpensive as
>well.  I had a C64 and 1541 that I wasn't using.   I got a VIC 1011A serial
>interface from eBay for around $5, and bought a null modem cable from Radio
>Shack for around $8.  The bridging software (which I wrote myself) is really
>not that complicated, it's Visual Basic and I wrote it in about 3 evenings.
>The only real ongoing expense is $5/month from my ISP for a fixed IP, and
>the few cents of power the 64/1541 use.
>
>Here's the most interesting part, though:   I set it up back in April for
>fun, and made a posting here along the lines of "If I get 20 callers, I'll
>keep it up for a while".   As of last night, I had 723 callers to the board,
>with over 300 people registered!  I've had to prune the userlist twice to
>make room for new users :-)
>
>So as it turned out, it's been worthwhile for more than just my own
>curiosity.  I get some very emotional feedback from users who appreciate the
>nostalgic experience of calling a C64 BBS again.  So I keep it running for
>them.  I've already done what I set out to do.  :-)
>
>
>> I've bee toying with the idea of running a Telnet BBS using EleBBS and
>> maybe even EleWeb, however, I thought it might be cool to run something
>> like Color 64. I do have a special place in my heart for DarkStar since
>
>Someone else is setting up a Color 64 BBS using my software, I'll let you
>know how he makes out with it.
>
>> it was faily popular in its day here in Toronto.
>
>You're also in Toronto??!  I'm in North York.   If you're serious about
>setting a BBS up, I could drop by and give you a hand with it.
>
>Regards
>Leif

Mike,

I can only speak for myself, but I want to put a C64 back online because
BBSing got me into the computer field in the first place.  Working with
vintage hardware brings back wonderful memories and makes my job as a
software engineer more fun (a nice break from stuffy OO programming).  I
made a big mistake earlier this year, I sold all my CMD and commie
equipment, because I decided I'd never do anything with it after failing to
get activity on the board via dial up.

I know a lot of people are having success via Telnet with an intermediate PC
to bridge the gap.  While I think this is awesome, I want to take things one
step further.  Many of us lust for C= -> internet capability.  There are
already solutions to this, and Dunkles' ethernet cart is probably the
coolest thing I've seen done in this area.  However, I don't care to browse
with a C64.

I want to emulate Hayes over Telnet so that I can use existing telcom
software to dial out and answer calls via telnet.  I don't like having to
rely on a PC to establish communications.  My goal is to build a device that
plugs into the cartridge port and connect directly to my router.  Imagine
typing ATDT192.168.1.1 to dialup another commodore on your home lan, for
example.

You need a few things to do this, for example, a chip with an ethernet
device and a tcp/ip stack, embedded software to convert RS-232 <-> Hayes,
etc. There's probably a ton of other technical problems to solve too.  I'm
hoping that by next Spring after I've completed my embedded systems
certificate I'll know just enough to get started on this project.  If I ever
build it, I'll publish the plans for everyone to use.  If I have a lot of
trouble, I'll attempt to get an official project started using the talents
of this newsgroup.

My goal is to revive stand-alone commodore to commodore communications using
the net instead of the phone.  No more hassles with PC->CBM file
conversions, no more windows software, just do it native!  (I'm in no way
criticizing the windows software, I think it's awesome, but I'm a purist I
guess)

My ultimate vision is a modified 1670 modem with the new internet smarts
inside, with a dip switch to configure ports, assign an IP, etc.  Of course
I'll be sure to make it support DHCP since most of us use that.  Just plug
in an ethernet cable into a different jack.  And, in my dreams, the original
modem will still function on phone lines.  Best of both worlds kind of
thing.  It's going to be VERY tough for me to pull this off, I'm a total
hardware newb right now, in fact I don't even know BASIC or 6510 assembler.
hehe, long road ahead!

Well, I'll stop dreaming and sign off now...

-Jeff

MikeC wrote ...

>Yeah...getting some help would be great. I have to figure out a bunch of
>things first, like what hardware and software I'm going to run.

A wide range of Commodore 8-bit BBS programs exist.  From simple ones that
will run happily on a C64 and a single 1541, to much more powerful ones that
require a C128, and will not be happy without a hard drive.

You can learn a lot about the various BBS packages on Bo Zimmerman's
website, starting from this URL:

http://www.zimmers.net/bbs/

Best regards,

Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088

While we're dreaming, how bout making that 1670 WiFi compatible with 802.11b
or g?

THen we don't even need a cable to make it Net freindly.

"microman" <microman@cox.net> wrote in message
news:CGGhb.18397$gi2.11591@fed1read01...
> Mike,
>
> I can only speak for myself, but I want to put a C64 back online because
> BBSing got me into the computer field in the first place.  Working with
> vintage hardware brings back wonderful memories and makes my job as a
> software engineer more fun (a nice break from stuffy OO programming).  I
> made a big mistake earlier this year, I sold all my CMD and commie
> equipment, because I decided I'd never do anything with it after failing
to
> get activity on the board via dial up.
>
> I know a lot of people are having success via Telnet with an intermediate
PC
> to bridge the gap.  While I think this is awesome, I want to take things
one
> step further.  Many of us lust for C= -> internet capability.  There are
> already solutions to this, and Dunkles' ethernet cart is probably the
> coolest thing I've seen done in this area.  However, I don't care to
browse
> with a C64.
>
> I want to emulate Hayes over Telnet so that I can use existing telcom
> software to dial out and answer calls via telnet.  I don't like having to
> rely on a PC to establish communications.  My goal is to build a device
that
> plugs into the cartridge port and connect directly to my router.  Imagine
> typing ATDT192.168.1.1 to dialup another commodore on your home lan, for
> example.
>
> You need a few things to do this, for example, a chip with an ethernet
> device and a tcp/ip stack, embedded software to convert RS-232 <-> Hayes,
> etc. There's probably a ton of other technical problems to solve too.  I'm
> hoping that by next Spring after I've completed my embedded systems
> certificate I'll know just enough to get started on this project.  If I
ever
> build it, I'll publish the plans for everyone to use.  If I have a lot of
> trouble, I'll attempt to get an official project started using the talents
> of this newsgroup.
>
> My goal is to revive stand-alone commodore to commodore communications
using
> the net instead of the phone.  No more hassles with PC->CBM file
> conversions, no more windows software, just do it native!  (I'm in no way
> criticizing the windows software, I think it's awesome, but I'm a purist I
> guess)
>
> My ultimate vision is a modified 1670 modem with the new internet smarts
> inside, with a dip switch to configure ports, assign an IP, etc.  Of
course
> I'll be sure to make it support DHCP since most of us use that.  Just plug
> in an ethernet cable into a different jack.  And, in my dreams, the
original
> modem will still function on phone lines.  Best of both worlds kind of
> thing.  It's going to be VERY tough for me to pull this off, I'm a total
> hardware newb right now, in fact I don't even know BASIC or 6510
assembler.
> hehe, long road ahead!
>
> Well, I'll stop dreaming and sign off now...
>
> -Jeff
>
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 9/29/2003

"microman" <microman@cox.net> writes:

>I want to emulate Hayes over Telnet so that I can use existing telcom
>software to dial out and answer calls via telnet.  I don't like having to
>rely on a PC to establish communications.  My goal is to build a device that
>plugs into the cartridge port and connect directly to my router.  Imagine
>typing ATDT192.168.1.1 to dialup another commodore on your home lan, for
>example. 
 [...]
>My ultimate vision is a modified 1670 modem with the new internet smarts
>inside, with a dip switch to configure ports, assign an IP, etc.  Of course
>I'll be sure to make it support DHCP since most of us use that.  Just plug
>in an ethernet cable into a different jack.

This sounds very similar to a Lantronix UDS-10, which I think is a really
underutilized device. In "modem mode", you just type

ATDTyour.ip.address.here/port

to telnet to your.ip.address.here port. UDS-10's speak DHCP, can be configured
to do modem mode, SLIP or PPP depending on your setup, have a built-in HTTP
and terminal configuration system, and run at 57.6k+ over a Turbo232.

I got mine almost a year ago for $100 something; I'm sure you can do better.
Combined with my T232, it's the perfect solution for getting my Commodore
networked, and it works with all the terminal and browser programs I use,
including HyperLink 2.5/2.5a/2.5e, CCGMS and NovaTerm 9.6.

Plus, it works great for other classic systems as well with a serial port,
or even a dummy terminal, of course.

I think the Lantronix has the greatest potential of any of the networking
devices presently available for the C64. IMHO, natch.

--
      Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
                personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
  ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
                  ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **

Thanks Cameron.  I'll keep a note of that product.  Hopefully I'll win my
ebay auctions tonight and be online soon.

"Cameron Kaiser" <ckaiser@floodgap.com> wrote in message
news:3f8977b6$0$43333$45beb828@newscene.com...
>
> This sounds very similar to a Lantronix UDS-10, which I think is a really
> underutilized device. In "modem mode", you just type
>
> ATDTyour.ip.address.here/port
>
> to telnet to your.ip.address.here port. UDS-10's speak DHCP, can be
configured
> to do modem mode, SLIP or PPP depending on your setup, have a built-in
HTTP
> and terminal configuration system, and run at 57.6k+ over a Turbo232.
>
> I got mine almost a year ago for $100 something; I'm sure you can do
better.
> Combined with my T232, it's the perfect solution for getting my Commodore
> networked, and it works with all the terminal and browser programs I use,
> including HyperLink 2.5/2.5a/2.5e, CCGMS and NovaTerm 9.6.
>
> Plus, it works great for other classic systems as well with a serial port,
> or even a dummy terminal, of course.
>
> I think the Lantronix has the greatest potential of any of the networking
> devices presently available for the C64. IMHO, natch.
>
> --
>       Cameron Kaiser * ckaiser@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
>                 personal page: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/
>   ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for
C64/128! **
>                   ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **