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Write CBM disk in IBM floppy drive?

Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM 360K 
floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe

Thanks!
JT 


0
Jack
1/26/2010 5:56:02 AM
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Hi!

Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
a chip on the PC.

However it is possible with 3.5" 1581 and a 3.5" PC-drive, as both
uses MFM-encoding.

This is why we for decades have connected a 1541 to the PC-printerport
with a X1541-cable. Newer versions of these cables exist today, even
som with USB-support. I think OpenCBM is the newest thing here.

/mrtinb


On 26 Jan., 06:56, "Jack Tseng" <tse...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM 360K
> floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe
>
> Thanks!
> JT
0
mrtinbspam
1/26/2010 9:00:17 AM
mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
> Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
> Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
> a chip on the PC.

That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named 
"Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II 
disk images for example.

Regards
  Peter
0
Peter
1/26/2010 11:38:19 AM
Peter Dassow wrote:
> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named 
> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II 
> disk images for example.

Small correction: It's written "Catweasel" (don't know why).
See also here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel

Regards
  Peter
0
Peter
1/26/2010 11:40:23 AM
In article <4b5ed42d$0$6555$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net>,
 Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> writes:
|> mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
|> > Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
|> > Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
|> > a chip on the PC.
|> 
|> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named 
|> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II 
|> disk images for example.

The truth in here is that people should properly differentiate between
the drive and the controller.

Rainer
0
buchty
1/26/2010 4:31:13 PM
Rainer Buchty wrote:
> In article <4b5ed42d$0$6555$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net>,
>  Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> writes:
> |> mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
> |> > Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
> |> > Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
> |> > a chip on the PC.
> |> 
> |> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named 
> |> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II 
> |> disk images for example.
> 
> The truth in here is that people should properly differentiate between
> the drive and the controller.
> 
So what's the point here ? I didn't mix it, you did.
He (Jack) can take almost any PC diskette drive, the drive itself does 
not have any limitation what format it can use, if an appropriate 
controller like the mentioned 'catweasel' controller is used.
0
Peter
1/26/2010 5:08:47 PM
On 2010-01-26, Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
> mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
>> Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
>> Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
>> a chip on the PC.

Commodore uses FM but it takes advantage of the greater circumference of
the outter trackers in order to fit in more sectors. This means that
either the 1541 supported different drive speeds or (more likely) the
controller supported multiple baud rates with the R/W head.

> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named 
> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II 
> disk images for example.

Apple DOS 3.2 just used regular FM (i.e. it only used every other bit on
the disk) where as DOS 3.3 used it's own special 6:8 RLL encoding where a disk
byte held 6 bits of data instead of 4. I can only imganine what would
happen if Apple had also allowed higher baud rates for the outter tracks
and a full 40 tracks.

GCR is a error correction system for IBM tape drives.

(q.v. <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_length_limited>)

-- 
				The Doctor
0
The
1/26/2010 8:36:10 PM
The Doctor schrieb:

>>> Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses =
MFM-encoding.
>>> Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
>>> a chip on the PC.
>
>Commodore uses FM but it takes advantage of the greater circumference of
>the outter trackers in order to fit in more sectors. This means that
>either the 1541 supported different drive speeds or (more likely) the
>controller supported multiple baud rates with the R/W head.

By the way: the 1571 can read DOS-Disks.
0
Rudolf
1/26/2010 10:05:23 PM
On Jan 26, 2:36=A0pm, The Doctor <doc...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> Commodore uses FM but it takes advantage of the greater circumference of
> the outter trackers in order to fit in more sectors. This means that
> either the 1541 supported different drive speeds or (more likely) the
> controller supported multiple baud rates with the R/W head.
>
> GCR is a error correction system for IBM tape drives.
>
> (q.v. <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run_length_limited>)

Commodore used GCR on their floppy drives up to and including the
1571. Only the 3 1/2" drive (1581) used MFM. The format is documented
in the manual that came with a Commodore drive.

The Commodore GCR format is similar to the IBM GCR format:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_code_recording#GCR_for_floppy_disks
0
James
1/27/2010 12:29:18 AM
Am 26.01.2010 06:56, schrieb Jack Tseng:
> Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM 360K 
> floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe

 You are looking for http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/ which can read many
native encoded formats in a simple PC drive.

 Yes, you read this right: NO CATWEAZLE REQUIRED!!!

 It bitbangs the �PD765a floppy controler and can read even strange
formats like old DD apple drives.

 Christian Brandt
0
Christian
1/27/2010 7:06:33 AM
> Commodore used GCR on their floppy drives up to and including the
> 1571. Only the 3 1/2" drive (1581) used MFM. The format is documented
> in the manual that came with a Commodore drive.

Not quite.  The 1571 can read/write *both* CGR and MFM.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Commodore_1571

Tom Lake 
0
Tom
1/27/2010 10:48:09 AM
* Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
> 
> Peter Dassow wrote:
>> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller
>> named "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded
>> Apple II disk images for example.
>
> Small correction: It's written "Catweasel" (don't know why).

Because weasel is spelled ...well, weasel?

-- 
Lars Haugseth
0
Lars
1/27/2010 11:32:37 AM
On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:06:33 +0100
Christian Brandt <brandtc@psi5.com> wrote:

> Am 26.01.2010 06:56, schrieb Jack Tseng:
> > Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM
> > 360K floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe
>=20
>  You are looking for http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/ which can read many
> native encoded formats in a simple PC drive.
>=20
>  Yes, you read this right: NO CATWEAZLE REQUIRED!!!
>=20
>  It bitbangs the =B5PD765a floppy controler and can read even strange
> formats like old DD apple drives.
>=20
>  Christian Brandt

Sounds like a fabulous idea, but I'd suggest this be ported to Unix-like op=
erating systems as well (Linux, BSD, etc), if possible.

--=20
"There are some things in life worth obsessing over.  Most
things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves."
http://starbase.globalpc.net/~ezekowitz
Vanessa E. <vanDEesLEsaTEezTHekISowitz@gmail.com>
(Delete the obvious to email me)


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---
0
Vanessa
1/27/2010 4:25:12 PM
Peter Dassow wrote:

> mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
>> Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
>> Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
>> a chip on the PC.
> 
> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named
> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II
> disk images for example.

was ? its still available :)

-- 

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ftp.pokefinder.org

volltrunkenheit - ��hnlicher Begriff: vollkommenheit 
<wikipedia>


0
Groepaz
1/27/2010 6:10:03 PM
The Doctor wrote:

> On 2010-01-26, Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
>> mrtinbspam@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Imposible, as 1541 uses GCR-encoding, and PC-drives uses MFM-encoding.
>>> Unfortunatly it cannot be overrided, as the MFM-encoding is done with
>>> a chip on the PC.
> 
> Commodore uses FM but it takes advantage of the greater circumference of
> the outter trackers in order to fit in more sectors. This means that
> either the 1541 supported different drive speeds or (more likely) the
> controller supported multiple baud rates with the R/W head.

commodore uses GCR, really :) and the speedzones have nothing to do with it.

>> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named
>> "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded Apple II
>> disk images for example.
> 
> Apple DOS 3.2 just used regular FM (i.e. it only used every other bit on
> the disk) where as DOS 3.3 used it's own special 6:8 RLL encoding where a
> disk byte held 6 bits of data instead of 4. I can only imganine what would
> happen if Apple had also allowed higher baud rates for the outter tracks
> and a full 40 tracks.

both the AppleIIe and the Macintosh 800k (and 400k) formats use GCR (apple 
variant, different to commodores)

fyi: GCR typically uses a 4:3 encoding

> GCR is a error correction system for IBM tape drives.

right!

-- 

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ftp.pokefinder.org

Wir wissen alle, dass Fernsehen dick, dumm, traurig und gewaltt�tig macht. 
<Ursula von der Leyen, CDU>


0
Groepaz
1/27/2010 6:13:49 PM
Vanessa Ezekowitz schreef:
> On Wed, 27 Jan 2010 08:06:33 +0100
> Christian Brandt <brandtc@psi5.com> wrote:
> 
>> Am 26.01.2010 06:56, schrieb Jack Tseng:
>>> Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM
>>> 360K floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe
>>  You are looking for http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/ which can read many
>> native encoded formats in a simple PC drive.
>>
>>  Yes, you read this right: NO CATWEAZLE REQUIRED!!!
>>
>>  It bitbangs the �PD765a floppy controler and can read even strange
>> formats like old DD apple drives.
>>
>>  Christian Brandt
> 
> Sounds like a fabulous idea, but I'd suggest this be ported to Unix-like operating systems as well (Linux, BSD, etc), if possible.

Unfortunately it can't be used to read GCR formatted disks, since even 
direct access to the 765 controller won't help with that.
0
Dombo
1/27/2010 6:22:38 PM
Christian Brandt wrote:

> Am 26.01.2010 06:56, schrieb Jack Tseng:
>> Can you find the DOS program that write the C1541 formatted disk in IBM
>> 360K floppy drive from the D64 image? Like Writeatr.exe
> 
>  You are looking for http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/ which can read many
> native encoded formats in a simple PC drive.
> 
>  Yes, you read this right: NO CATWEAZLE REQUIRED!!!
> 
>  It bitbangs the �PD765a floppy controler and can read even strange
> formats like old DD apple drives.

uh? maybe before making such claims you should actually understand what you 
are talking about ....

while fdrawcmd.sys (and the known frontend "omniflop") are quite nice 
software, they can NOT do the impossible. that is, they can obviously only 
read (and write) what the controllerchip in the pc is capable of. and that 
means: standard FM and MFM formats, at their standard bitrates. NO apple2e 
disks, NO amiga format, NO commodore 1541 format. 
yes it allows, with some heavy trickery and using a second modified drive, 
some limited access to these formats - however, no transfer software that 
actually uses this method exists. (there exists disk2fdi, which works 
similar, but in plain DOS)

(last not least, notice that neither fdrawcmd nor disk2fdi can *write* those 
non standard formats, which was what the OP asked for)

-- 

http://www.hitmen-console.org    http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org        http://ftp.pokefinder.org

The universe is simple; it's the explanation that's complex.


0
Groepaz
1/27/2010 6:27:14 PM
In article <20100127102512.09a42290@rainbird>,
 Vanessa Ezekowitz <vanessaezekowitz@gmail.com> writes:
|> 
|> Sounds like a fabulous idea, but I'd suggest this be ported to Unix-like op=
|> erating systems as well (Linux, BSD, etc), if possible.

fdutils is there for years, including "superformat" for creating big-sector
and MSS formats.

Rainer
0
buchty
1/27/2010 9:09:23 PM
"Rainer Buchty" <buchty@atbode100.lrr.in.tum.de> wrote
in message news:hjqa23$51d$1@news.lrz-muenchen.de...
> In article <20100127102512.09a42290@rainbird>,
> Vanessa Ezekowitz <vanessaezekowitz@gmail.com> writes:
> |>
> |> Sounds like a fabulous idea, but I'd suggest this
> |> be ported to Unix-like operating systems as well
> |> (Linux, BSD, etc), if possible.
>
> fdutils is there for years, including "superformat"
> for creating big-sector and MSS formats.
>
> Rainer

I know that this is purely lame, and has nothing to
do with the topic, but.................

'fdutils': fuh-doodles, uh, yeah, just purely lame.

Bill



0
Bill
1/28/2010 12:26:27 AM
Lars Haugseth wrote:
> * Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
>> Peter Dassow wrote:
>>> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller
>>> named "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded
>>> Apple II disk images for example.
>> Small correction: It's written "Catweasel" (don't know why).
> 
> Because weasel is spelled ...well, weasel?
> 

Ok, I thought about a british TV series named "Catweazle"... I guess you 
have never seen this.
0
Peter
1/29/2010 1:37:28 PM
"Peter Dassow" <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote in message
news:4b62e49b$0$6566$9b4e6d93@newsspool4.arcor-online.net...
> Lars Haugseth wrote:
>> * Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
>>> Peter Dassow wrote:
>>>> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller named "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR 
>>>> coded Apple II disk images for example.
>>> Small correction: It's written "Catweasel" (don't know why).
>>
>> Because weasel is spelled ...well, weasel?
>
> Ok, I thought about a british TV series named "Catweazle"... I guess you have never seen this.

"Poor Catweazle! All he wanted was a spell that would make him fly."

Gotta Love Google, right?  :-)))))

Bill



0
Bill
1/29/2010 4:15:52 PM
* Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
> 
> Lars Haugseth wrote:
>> * Peter Dassow <z80eu@arcor.de> wrote:
>>> Peter Dassow wrote:
>>>> That's not the whole truth. There was a special disk controller
>>>> named "Catweazle", which made it possible to write also GCR coded
>>>> Apple II disk images for example.
>>> Small correction: It's written "Catweasel" (don't know why).
>>
>> Because weasel is spelled ...well, weasel?
>
> Ok, I thought about a british TV series named "Catweazle"... I guess
> you have never seen this.

I don't think I have, it was made the year I was born, so if I've seen
it I can't remember it. Your spelling comment makes a bit more sense
now though, thanks.

-- 
Lars Haugseth
0
Lars
1/30/2010 8:29:42 PM
Reply: