I've got a real stumper here. A user is claiming that whenever he types
the "@" (at-symbol) on the command line, EVERYTHING he typed in on that
command line previous to that character is wiped away.

Example: He types "mail myname@bogusdomain.com", and sees only
"bogusdomain.com" on the command line.

He claims it doesn't matter how he's logged in, or who he's logged in
as... SecureCRT, xterm, Windows telnet... All the same.

I've tried to replicate the behaviour, and surprise-surprise, I
can't... Nobody, and I mean NO-BODY, even HP, has ever heard of such a
thing. Have you?

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com writes:

> I've tried to replicate the behaviour, and surprise-surprise, I
> can't... Nobody, and I mean NO-BODY, even HP, has ever heard of such a
> thing. Have you?

stty -a

It just might be that the environment is setting the at sign as the
"kill" terminal sequence.

-- 
Atro Tossavainen (Mr.)               / The Institute of Biotechnology at
Systems Analyst, Techno-Amish &     / the University of Helsinki, Finland,
+358-9-19158939  UNIX Dinosaur     / employs me, but my opinions are my own.
< URL : http : / / www . helsinki . fi / %7E atossava / > NO FILE ATTACHMENTS

In article <pgz7jdbiist.fsf@kruuna.helsinki.fi>, Atro Tossavainen wrote:
> mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com writes:
> 
>> I've tried to replicate the behaviour, and surprise-surprise, I
>> can't... Nobody, and I mean NO-BODY, even HP, has ever heard of such a
>> thing. Have you?
> 
> stty -a
> 
> It just might be that the environment is setting the at sign as the
> "kill" terminal sequence.
 
Also, the point about HP never having heard about such can't possibly be
valid, we've had HP-UX servers do that by default. H-class frames at
least. Yes, that'd be ten years old by now. What's more, it's been
discussed here too at least a couple of times in the last 5 years.

Is the FAQ maintainer around? What's the limit for being F enough to be
included in the FAQ?


-- 
Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com>
#include <disclaimer.h>
#Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV. 

Thanks for the suggestions, but I've logged in as this guy, and did an
"stty -a" already... Nothing about an at-symbol, and typing the
at-symbol resulted in "@" being printed on the screen.

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestions, but I've logged in as this guy, and did an
> "stty -a" already... Nothing about an at-symbol, and typing the
> at-symbol resulted in "@" being printed on the screen.
> 

His keyboard mapping maybe? Try it from HIS workstation/terminal
emulator.

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestions, but I've logged in as this guy, and did an
> "stty -a" already... Nothing about an at-symbol, and typing the
> at-symbol resulted in "@" being printed on the screen.

  Let him reproduce the problem and *then* do a "stty -a".

  Also see my response to Mikko Nahkola (which points to this issue in
the comp.sys.hp.hpux FAQ).

Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote:
> In article <pgz7jdbiist.fsf@kruuna.helsinki.fi>, Atro Tossavainen wrote:
> > mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com writes:
> > 
> >> I've tried to replicate the behaviour, and surprise-surprise, I
> >> can't... Nobody, and I mean NO-BODY, even HP, has ever heard of such a
> >> thing. Have you?
> > 
> > stty -a
> > 
> > It just might be that the environment is setting the at sign as the
> > "kill" terminal sequence.
>  
> Also, the point about HP never having heard about such can't possibly be
> valid, we've had HP-UX servers do that by default. H-class frames at
> least. Yes, that'd be ten years old by now. What's more, it's been
> discussed here too at least a couple of times in the last 5 years.
> 
> Is the FAQ maintainer around? What's the limit for being F enough to be
> included in the FAQ?

  It's already in the FAQ, probably since day one (of the FAQ):

<http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hp/hpux-faq/>

FAQ> Subject: 8.14  Why can't I type an '@' character?
FAQ> 
FAQ> If you do a 'stty -a' and you will see that your 'kill' character is
FAQ> set to '@'.  You need to set your 'kill' character to be something
FAQ> other than the '@' character by doing something like 'stty kill '^U''.
FAQ> You should add this to your .profile or .cshrc file.

  And then there is the issue that for some (X) windows environments,
..profile/.cshrc are not executed.

That's not a solution... That's "Doctor, it hurts when I do this," and
the doctor says, "So don't do that."

What's not in the FAQ is WHY is the kill character an "@" in the first
place? That's the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard of...

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> That's not a solution... That's "Doctor, it hurts when I do this," and
> the doctor says, "So don't do that."
> 
> What's not in the FAQ is WHY is the kill character an "@" in the first
> place? That's the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard of...

  Why? Because it's *standard*. That's why. For details, see the
termio(7) manual page.

  I.e. don't assume something is "dumb", just because you don't
understand it.

  *I* consider responding without providing context "the absolute
dumbest thing I have ever heard of..." (but at least *I* *understand*
*why* you are being "dumb").

If I could quote, I would, but then you'd probably go "NetCop" on me
anyway and tell me I quoted too little or too much, or I top posted, or
I bottom posted... You'd find something wrong and attack me for it.

^U is the standard kill character. HP-UX is the only operating system
out there that sets it to @ by default. Again, I ask why?

And yes, it is DUMB. You can't send an email without @. That's like
setting the Enter key as EOF.

Thanks to those who gave HELPFUL responses, and I thumb my nose at
those who see fit to only offer personal attacks.

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:

> That's not a solution... That's "Doctor, it hurts when I do this," and
> the doctor says, "So don't do that."
> What's not in the FAQ is WHY is the kill character an "@" in the first
> place? That's the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard of...
 
Well, at least on 11.11, the man page for termio(7) says that it comes
straight from SVID3. So at least it's compatible, and the dumbness
is someone else's fault ;-)


-- 
Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com>
#include <disclaimer.h>
#Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV. 

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> If I could quote, I would,

  You can. See the Google Groups preferences or whatever they are
called. This issue is also addressed in GG's help.

>			     but then you'd probably go "NetCop" on me
> anyway and tell me I quoted too little or too much, or I top posted, or
> I bottom posted... You'd find something wrong and attack me for it.

  I did *not* attack you. What I gave was a sarcastic counter example of
something which is (not) "dumb".

> ^U is the standard kill character. HP-UX is the only operating system
> out there that sets it to @ by default. Again, I ask why?

  If you had read the reference which I gave, termio(7), you would have
seen that '@' is the (SVID/XPG) standard (see "STANDARDS CONFORMANCE").
If you see something else, then *something/someone* has set it to a
different value. Also in HP-UX, *.profile and friends* [1] set it to a
different value, but if, *as noted*, .profile and friends are not
executed, the kill character will be at the termio(7) default of '@'.

> And yes, it is DUMB. You can't send an email without @. That's like
> setting the Enter key as EOF.

  The standard *predates* the use of '@' in e-mail addresses. So, *if*
anything is "dumb", it's the use of a kill character in an e-mail
address. (*Not* saying it is dumb, just saying *if* ....)

> Thanks to those who gave HELPFUL responses, and I thumb my nose at
> those who see fit to only offer personal attacks.

  I *helped* you, but instead of being grateful for that help, *you*
'attacked' HP-UX and the FAQ, out of ignorance [2]. I only returned the
favor.

  So get off your high horse and start *reading* what people write c.q.
tell you to read.


[1] AFAIK, it's actually /etc/profile and /etc/csh.login which set this
(and some other file(s) for when you're not yet logged in (i.e. for '@'
in user name or/and password).

[2] "ignorance" as in not-knowing, *not* as in stupid.

On 21 Sep 2005 09:30:52 -0700, mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:

>If I could quote, I would, but then you'd probably go "NetCop" on me
>anyway and tell me I quoted too little or too much, or I top posted, or
>I bottom posted... You'd find something wrong and attack me for it.
>
>^U is the standard kill character. HP-UX is the only operating system
>out there that sets it to @ by default. Again, I ask why?

"@" is the default line kill for System V based versions of Unix and is
defined in the System V Interface Definition. Also, erase is # and intr
is Del.  

Ctl-U is the default for BSD based systems.


>
>And yes, it is DUMB. You can't send an email without @. That's like
>setting the Enter key as EOF.
>
>Thanks to those who gave HELPFUL responses, and I thumb my nose at
>those who see fit to only offer personal attacks.

Robert Klute <robert_klute_removethis@hp.com> wrote:
> On 21 Sep 2005 09:30:52 -0700, mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> 
> >If I could quote, I would, but then you'd probably go "NetCop" on me
> >anyway and tell me I quoted too little or too much, or I top posted, or
> >I bottom posted... You'd find something wrong and attack me for it.
> >
> >^U is the standard kill character. HP-UX is the only operating system
> >out there that sets it to @ by default. Again, I ask why?
> 
> "@" is the default line kill for System V based versions of Unix and is
> defined in the System V Interface Definition. Also, erase is # and intr
> is Del.  
> 
> Ctl-U is the default for BSD based systems.

  And since the SVID (and XPG)  are standards, while BSD is an
implementation, the *standard* is (as I said) '@'.

Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola@trein.ntc.nokia.com> wrote:
> mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> 
> > That's not a solution... That's "Doctor, it hurts when I do this," and
> > the doctor says, "So don't do that."
> > What's not in the FAQ is WHY is the kill character an "@" in the first
> > place? That's the absolute dumbest thing I have ever heard of...
>  
> Well, at least on 11.11, the man page for termio(7) says that it comes
> straight from SVID3. So at least it's compatible, and the dumbness
> is someone else's fault ;-)

  Yes, it's probably the fault of those idiots Ken Thompson and Dennis
Ritchie!

Frank "It's all in the headers!" Slootweg

It's not in /etc/profile or /etc/csh.login. That was the first place I
looked, and why I cam here looking for help. The @ setting must be in
one of these "some other file(s)" you mention, but don't go into detail
about...and aren't mentioned in the FAQ either.

....and as for reading the FAQ... What FAQ? I didn't know there was a
FAQ until AFTER someone slammed me for not reading it. How's someone
supposed to know there's a FAQ when it's buried 10 levels deep on a
website that nobody's ever heard of?

....and I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to dedicate to becoming an
H-PUKES guru because I have umpteen-hundred Solaris boxes to take care
of. At least with Sun if you have a question, they at least TRY to get
you an answer with premium support. HP's support couldn't even tell me
where the serial number is on a box! We still can't find the serial
number on this rp3440, and we've literally torn it apart looking. Top,
bottom, left, right, inside, outside... NOTHING! Call HP support,
"DUHHHHH! We can't give you support without a serial number." Well,
Einstein, I'd give you the serial number if you would tell me where it
is!

On 22 Sep 2005 14:11:04 -0700, mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:

>It's not in /etc/profile or /etc/csh.login. That was the first place I
>looked, and why I cam here looking for help. The @ setting must be in
>one of these "some other file(s)" you mention, but don't go into detail
>about...and aren't mentioned in the FAQ either.

@ is the DEFAULT setting for kill if you don't override it!  That is
what the SVID specifies the default to be.  That is what HP sets the
default to be.  If you don't want kill to be @ then override it in your
..profile or /etc/profile, etc. to be whatever you want it to be.


>...and as for reading the FAQ... What FAQ? I didn't know there was a
>FAQ until AFTER someone slammed me for not reading it. How's someone
>supposed to know there's a FAQ when it's buried 10 levels deep on a
>website that nobody's ever heard of?

"man termio" will tell you the same thing and that is available on your
system.

>...and I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to dedicate to becoming an
>H-PUKES guru because I have umpteen-hundred Solaris boxes to take care
>of. At least with Sun if you have a question, they at least TRY to get
>you an answer with premium support. HP's support couldn't even tell me
>where the serial number is on a box! We still can't find the serial
>number on this rp3440, and we've literally torn it apart looking. Top,
>bottom, left, right, inside, outside... NOTHING! Call HP support,
>"DUHHHHH! We can't give you support without a serial number." Well,
>Einstein, I'd give you the serial number if you would tell me where it
>is!

The serial number is found in one of two places, depending on how old
the unit is.

Most likely, nn the left side of the chassis is are the disk drive bays.
To the right of the middle drive bay should be a small pull out card -
the system product label (sometimes called a luggage tag).  The serial
number should be on that card.

Otherwise it is on a label affixed on the right side on the chassis,
usually about half way back.


See page 109 of http://docs.hp.com/en/A7137-96002/A7137-96002.pdf

mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> It's not in /etc/profile or /etc/csh.login. That was the first place I
> looked, and why I cam here looking for help. The @ setting must be in
> one of these "some other file(s)" you mention, but don't go into detail
> about...and aren't mentioned in the FAQ either.

  No. (Again:) *Read* what people write: What I am referring to is where
the setting is *changed* from the (termio(7)/SVID/XPG/standard) default
of '@'.  For a POSIX or Korn shell, the stty command which sets kill to
something *other* than '@' is either in /etc/profile (which I mentioned)
or in ~user/.profile (which the FAQ mentions).

> ...and as for reading the FAQ... What FAQ? I didn't know there was a
> FAQ until AFTER someone slammed me for not reading it. How's someone
> supposed to know there's a FAQ when it's buried 10 levels deep on a
> website that nobody's ever heard of?

  Nobody slammed you,and I pointed you to the FAQ. To the FAQ itself and
to the relevant part of it. So please no fairy tales about things which
did never happen.

> ...and I'm sorry, but I don't have the time to dedicate to becoming an
> H-PUKES guru because I have umpteen-hundred Solaris boxes to take care
> of.

  "H-PUKES"! Very drole and very mature! I'm sure no-one has ever heard
that 'joke' before.

  Reality check: Do you *really* think that people are going to help you
if you slam the systems which they use or/and support?

>     At least with Sun if you have a question, they at least TRY to get
> you an answer with premium support. HP's support couldn't even tell me
> where the serial number is on a box! We still can't find the serial
> number on this rp3440, and we've literally torn it apart looking. Top,
> bottom, left, right, inside, outside... NOTHING! Call HP support,
> "DUHHHHH! We can't give you support without a serial number." Well,
> Einstein, I'd give you the serial number if you would tell me where it
> is!

  And that flame is relevant in exactly which way?

A little earlier I wrote:
> mkirsch1@rochester.rr.com wrote:
> > It's not in /etc/profile or /etc/csh.login. That was the first place I
> > looked, and why I cam here looking for help. The @ setting must be in
> > one of these "some other file(s)" you mention, but don't go into detail
> > about...and aren't mentioned in the FAQ either.
> 
>   No. (Again:) *Read* what people write: What I am referring to is where
> the setting is *changed* from the (termio(7)/SVID/XPG/standard) default
> of '@'.  For a POSIX or Korn shell, the stty command which sets kill to
> something *other* than '@' is either in /etc/profile (which I mentioned)
> or in ~user/.profile (which the FAQ mentions).

  It's in ~user/.profile:

>         stty erase "^H" kill "^U" intr "^C" eof "^D"

  I.e. that stty(1) command *changes* the kill character from the
(termio(7)/SVID/XPG/standard) default '@' to '^U'.

  However, as I said before, the problem, especially with (X) windows
environments, often is that .profile (and /etc/profile) are not executed
if the environment is not configured correctly.

  So, again: Let the user reproduce the problem. Then do a "stty -a". If
that shows that kill is set to '@' then do a "stty kill "^U"" and see if
that solves the problem. If so, figure out why .profile is not executed,
because (then) that is the *real* problem.

[rest of earlier response deleted]