In a posting by Jean-Yves Avenard, he said " I can only fix stuff I can
reproduce myself... Then try to explain it to the developers in China
.... "  Is he joking or does he work for HP?

JB wrote:
> In a posting by Jean-Yves Avenard, he said " I can only fix stuff I can
> reproduce myself... Then try to explain it to the developers in China
> ... "  Is he joking or does he work for HP?

A little assignment..
Do a search on "Meta Kernel", "ACO", "CdB", "49G", "Hydrix", then you
tell us who JYA is.

mk

JB wrote:

> Is he joking or does he work for HP?

Joking? Jean-Yves?? Rarely ;-))

Cheers,
Steen

Steen Schmidt wrote:
> Joking? Jean-Yves?? Rarely ;-))
Oh come on !

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:

> Steen Schmidt wrote:
> > Joking? Jean-Yves?? Rarely ;-))
> Oh come on !

Hehe :-)

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> Steen Schmidt wrote:
> > Joking? Jean-Yves?? Rarely ;-))
> Oh come on !
Mr. Avenard, there are now 5 replies to my posting but none of them
answer my simple question.  Would you please be so kind as to answer my
very simple question.   Do you work for HP?  I am new to this site and
don't know of you so since you write of trying to get the designers in
China to fix stuff, I have to wonder if you are serious.

JB wrote:
> Mr. Avenard, there are now 5 replies to my posting but none of them
> answer my simple question
And if you bothered looking up on the first answer you got (from mk), 
you would have your answer.

No, I am not an HP employee, haven't been for 5 years

JY

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 23:01:12 -0500, JB wrote:

> since [JYA] writes of trying to get the designers in
> China to fix stuff, I have to wonder if [he is] serious.

In 1931, Peek Freans (a very serious product)
established an office in Australia,
where I believe JYA primarily operates,
and he has no doubt been unable to escape from
(if not irrevocably altered by)
this product's pervasive and serious influence
upon the world-wide environment.

"Very serious"
http://www.kraftfoods.com/peekfreans/img/header1.gif

See 1931:
http://www.kraftfoods.com/peekfreans/history

Even more serious (as always, in today's world)
http://www.kraftfoods.com/kf/about/legallawyers

Kraft's Disclaimer:

The materials in our sites are provided as is.
This means that (subject to the exception below)
Kraft disclaims all express and implied warranties
about the material in the sites.

This includes (but is not limited to) warranties...

That the material is of any particular level of quality
or fit for a particular purpose.

That defects will be corrected.
[broken pieces and crumbs?]

That our sites or the servers that makes them available
are free of viruses or other harmful components.
[did you just visit using IE?]

That successful results or outcomes will result from
properly following any instructions, directions or recipes
contained in the materials. (We think our recipes are great,
but we have no control over conditions in your particular
kitchen or household that we don't know about.)
[like "broken keys are your fault"]

In addition to the above, you (and not Kraft)
assume the entire cost of all necessary servicing,
repair or correction.
[how do you service/repair/correct this product?]

[in other words, Kraft is not even responsible
if your belly button falls off after eating this stuff;
furrfu, even HP replaced fallen off buttons :]

[r->] [OFF]

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> JB wrote:
>> Mr. Avenard, there are now 5 replies to my posting but none of them
>> answer my simple question
> And if you bothered looking up on the first answer you got (from mk),
> you would have your answer.
> 
> No, I am not an HP employee, haven't been for 5 years

But he _plays_ one on Usenet.  =)

-- 
..-.    .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-<  >  / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-'  |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|<-this url + /books/list.html

John H Meyers wrote:

> "Very serious"
> http://www.kraftfoods.com/peekfreans/img/header1.gif

You know, I looked at this and my first thought was
"That's no good for me!  I need a _humourous_ cookie."

-- 
..-.    .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-<  >  / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-'  |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|<-this url + /books/list.html

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> JB wrote:
> > Mr. Avenard, there are now 5 replies to my posting but none of them
> > answer my simple question
> And if you bothered looking up on the first answer you got (from mk),
> you would have your answer.
>
> No, I am not an HP employee, haven't been for 5 years
>
> JY

Thank you for the reply JY.  So I asked a simple question that deserved
a simple answer.  You have provided that and I have thanked you.  With
respect to your comment that "if you bothered looking up on the first
answer you got (from mk), you would have your answer."   Why would I do
such a thing when i simply wanted to know if you were an Hp employee
because I was curious to find out if HP employees overtly participate
in this site.  I might add that if Mk wants a report on the subjects he
proposed, then he/she will have to do the research him or herself.  I
try to be helpful to people in need, but I don't do other peoples
research, or run their errants.  -JB  P.S. My interests are in math,
not computer programming.  Are you a computer programmer?

Hi
JB wrote:
> in this site.  I might add that if Mk wants a report on the subjects he
> proposed, then he/she will have to do the research him or herself.  I
MK didn't want to do the research for himself, simply because he knew 
the answer already, and was kindly pointing you in the right direction. 
Giving the items to search can be far more efficient than trying to 
summarize the results in a usenet forum. It was a simple question, but 
the answer isn't simple as there's a lot of history attached to it.

However, if you had bothered looking for yourself and doing what other 
people had suggested you would have had your answers and more: such as 
which people are actively involved in the development of HP calculators. 
Instead you preferred to criticize the answers you got and missing the point

JY

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:28:33 -0500, JB wrote:

> I was curious to find out if HP employees
> overtly participate in this site.

It certainly isn't hard to find a very open,
forthright, centrally involved and helpful HP employee,
who even includes his real HP address, e.g.:

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/86a400340ea411d0
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/929d3abe9d0e7d7

And I doubt very much that anyone from HP posts in disguise
(although anyone can just read and not participate at all).

If you want to look for disguises, check out the TI trolls.

[r->] [OFF]

"JB" <wjbudd@yahoo.com> wrote in message 
news:1156897713.162617.306310@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
> Why would I do
> such a thing when i simply wanted to know if you were an Hp employee
> because I was curious to find out if HP employees overtly participate
> in this site.

In fact HP employees do participate in this site.  It's one of the reasons I 
keep coming, as typical to most of usenet, there are people here who who 
feel that scoring points off each other is fun sport, and they tend to clog 
up the bandwidth at a level more than I'd normally put up with.

It's easy to scan the list of posts for their names and try to take some 
reasonable level of content away from the few minuts per day I spend 
here....

You'll have to follow the given advice and do your research for the names of 
those employees though.. ;-P

Al... 

JB wrote:
  I might add that if Mk wants a report on the subjects he
> proposed, then he/she will have to do the research him or herself.  I
> try to be helpful to people in need, but I don't do other peoples
> research, or run their errants.

JB, you are absolutely correct.  I phrased my message wrong (i.e. "Do a
search.. then you tell us who JYA is").  It should have said something
to the effect of "Do a search.. then you will learn for yourself who
JYA is".  You do not have to report back :-)

I'm afraid I responded in haste because I had just read a post from you
(in a thread titled "HP calc. Customer Service") where you said "I
guess that is the difference between Ti and Hp.  Ti fixes product
problems BEFORE they release the product."

And before that (in the same thread), I read your concern about the 50G
keyboard when you asked [if] "a keyboard problem developes, what
telephone number would I call at
HP for calculator customer service."

>From these postings, the gathered a general impression that 1) you were
not willing to do a little work for yourself (not searching for the HP
support number, and not searching for previous posts from JYA).  I'm
sorry, but my original reply above, was along the lines of a RTFM
response.  The second impression I got was that, being fairly new
around here, IMHO you were being a little too flipant/disrespectful in
your opinion of HP calculators, especially when you're asking questions
in an HP calculator news group.

You didn't ask for it, but a little practical advice.. humility goes a
long way,  and a little work on your part will generally answer a lot
questions.   That being said.. Welcome to the newsgroup, JB!!
(seriously).

mk

"Who is this 'JB,' anyway?"

"Does he overtly work for anyone else?"

"Is he a TI agent, here to plant disinformation?"


and "who shot JR?"
(I've already forgot, so I'm ready for the re-run :)

[r->] [OFF]

John H Meyers wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:28:33 -0500, JB wrote:
>
> > I was curious to find out if HP employees
> > overtly participate in this site.
>
> It certainly isn't hard to find a very open,
> forthright, centrally involved and helpful HP employee,
> who even includes his real HP address, e.g.:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/86a400340ea411d0
> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.hp48/msg/929d3abe9d0e7d7
>
> And I doubt very much that anyone from HP posts in disguise
> (although anyone can just read and not participate at all).
>
> If you want to look for disguises, check out the TI trolls.
>
> [r->] [OFF]
Thank you John for the very helpful reply.  I am amazed at the response
to the question I posed.  I thought probably my question would be
overlooked as non-technical and therefore not worthy of a reply, or
that I would get a one word answer (a yes or a no), but there must be
10 or more replies of various sorts.  Simply amazing.  You mentioned
the TI trolls.  Yes, there are some rude and childish postings there,
but there are also some very valuable postings made by people that
don't want to share personal information on the internet.  In fact, the
most valuable answer that I ever got from the internet, was from gifted
mathematician who didn't want to identify himself.  It seems that some
people shun publicity because it is a distraction, while others do
everything that they can to get attention, i.e., they need that
constant fix.  A psychiatrist friend of mine once told me that the
second personality type is usually compensating for low self esteem
that was caused by an overly critical parent.  In any case, I would
urge you to ignore the trolls on the TI sites and benefit from the
sincere and helpful postings there.

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> Hi
> JB wrote:
> > in this site.  I might add that if Mk wants a report on the subjects he
> > proposed, then he/she will have to do the research him or herself.  I
> MK didn't want to do the research for himself, simply because he knew
> the answer already, and was kindly pointing you in the right direction.
> Giving the items to search can be far more efficient than trying to
> summarize the results in a usenet forum. It was a simple question, but
> the answer isn't simple as there's a lot of history attached to it.
>
> However, if you had bothered looking for yourself and doing what other
> people had suggested you would have had your answers and more: such as
> which people are actively involved in the development of HP calculators.
> Instead you preferred to criticize the answers you got and missing the point
>
> JY
Once again JY, I was after a simple answer not a research project and
you were kind enough to give the answer.  As for doing what other
people suggest.  That would be my decision to make.  And as for the
comment that "you would have had your answers and more."  I was only
seeking for one answer and I don't have time for the "and more."  I
don't know about you Jean, but I am a very busy person, sometimes
getting up in the middle of the night to work for a few extra hours and
I simply don't have time to waste on answers that I am not seeking but
thank you for the concern.  - JB

mk wrote:
> JB wrote:
>   I might add that if Mk wants a report on the subjects he
> > proposed, then he/she will have to do the research him or herself.  I
> > try to be helpful to people in need, but I don't do other peoples
> > research, or run their errants.
>
> JB, you are absolutely correct.  I phrased my message wrong (i.e. "Do a
> search.. then you tell us who JYA is").  It should have said something
> to the effect of "Do a search.. then you will learn for yourself who
> JYA is".  You do not have to report back :-)
>
> I'm afraid I responded in haste because I had just read a post from you
> (in a thread titled "HP calc. Customer Service") where you said "I
> guess that is the difference between Ti and Hp.  Ti fixes product
> problems BEFORE they release the product."
>
> And before that (in the same thread), I read your concern about the 50G
> keyboard when you asked [if] "a keyboard problem developes, what
> telephone number would I call at
> HP for calculator customer service."
>
> >From these postings, the gathered a general impression that 1) you were
> not willing to do a little work for yourself (not searching for the HP
> support number, and not searching for previous posts from JYA).  I'm
> sorry, but my original reply above, was along the lines of a RTFM
> response.  The second impression I got was that, being fairly new
> around here, IMHO you were being a little too flipant/disrespectful in
> your opinion of HP calculators, especially when you're asking questions
> in an HP calculator news group.
>
> You didn't ask for it, but a little practical advice.. humility goes a
> long way,  and a little work on your part will generally answer a lot
> questions.   That being said.. Welcome to the newsgroup, JB!!
> (seriously).
>
> mk

Thank you sincerely MK.  I appreciate the welcome.  As I mentioned to
Jean, my interests are in math as opposed to programming or computer
science, so I am always after the best math machine regardless of
maker.  Similiarly, programming topics are simply not not of interest
to me, even though there is absolutely nothing wrong with others
pursueing such things.  To put it another way, if you had suggested I
research someones background regarding a new method of solving
differential equations I would have been happy to do so and on the task
in a heart beat, but I just don't have the same interest in computer
stuff and while I may be wrong, it looked like the topics you suggested
were computer oriented.

Again, I want the best math machine regardless of maker, and I need to
get one of the new 50g's and put it through it's paces, but I hesitate
to buy at this time, not because of monitary considerations but because
my experience with HP quality and customer service has been, for me,
disasterous in recent years and I don't want to get another faulty
product and have to spend a lot if time on the phone waiting to speak
to a customer service person.  So I question if this is the right time
to buy, or perhaps I should wait a while to see what problems surface
if any.  This translates into (and here I am being honest, not
disrespectful), with the departure of Ms. Fiorino and the advent of the
50g, has HP has improved it's product quality and customer service any,
or perhaps there is just not the corporate desire to do?

Now a couple of final points and then I look forward to any reply you
might have for me.  I am NOT happy with the "desolve" capibility of the
TI voyage 200 for solving differential equations and have brought a
problem to TI's attention and got no response in over a week.  On the
other hand, its hard to beat the typewriter style entry, large screen
and math orientation, which is to say that one does not
"mathematically" take the 30 degrees of sin, one takes the sin of 30
degrees.  So while rpn may be an advantage to programmers, it is a
dissadvantage to someone like me.  Having said that I am still
interested in the 50g, and any comments you can provide are
appreciated.

Sincerely, JB  P.S. If the 50g is as good as some people claim, it
would be dynamite with a larger screen and a qwerty keyboard. I love
that keyboard because I can enter problems quickly using both hands
with no concern for whether I pressed the alpha, or alpha lock keys.

John H Meyers wrote:
> "Who is this 'JB,' anyway?"
>
> "Does he overtly work for anyone else?"
>
> "Is he a TI agent, here to plant disinformation?"
>
>
> and "who shot JR?"
> (I've already forgot, so I'm ready for the re-run :)
>
> [r->] [OFF]

John Meyers wrote: "Who is this 'JB,' anyway?"  I am JB and those are
two of my initials that I go by.  No, I don't work for TI.  Also, don't
own any TI stock, nor have any friends or relatives that work at TI.
My interest is in having the best "mathematical" calculator at my
disposal.  I am using a Voyage 200 TI calc and I prefer it because of
its large screen, qwerty keyboard, and mathematical entry style as
opposed to rpn. HOWEVER, if I find that the 50g has a better diffy-Q
capibility, I will probably use the 50g for those tasks.  I am debating
if I should buy a 50g now or wait and see what bugs turn up, thus my
interest in this forum.   "Is he a TI agent, here to plant
disinformation?" NO, but who did shot JR? - JB  P.S. Are you an HP
agent here to plant information?

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:36:49 -0500, JB wrote:

> I am NOT happy with the "desolve" capibility of the TI
> Voyage 200 for solving differential equations and have brought
> a problem to TI's attention and got no response in over a week.
> On the other hand, its hard to beat the typewriter style entry,
> large screen and math orientation, which is to say that one does not
> "mathematically" take the 30 degrees of sin, one takes the sin of 30
> degrees.  So while rpn may be an advantage to programmers,
> it is a disadvantage to someone like me.

Formulas have been a part of RPL
since long before the HP48 series, e.g. 'SIN(30)'
[quoted formulas are written and interpreted algebraically]

If you want to *permanently* be in "formula mode"
[and simultaneously discriminated against regarding programming]
you can remain in the default ALGebraic mode,
which was specifically designed to make TI users feel comfy :)

[r->] [OFF]

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:03:10 -0500, JB wrote:

> No, I don't work for TI.

But you use AT&T WorldNet Services!
(although I have no idea what that proves :)

> My interest is in having the best "mathematical" calculator
> at my disposal.  I am using a Voyage 200 TI calc and I prefer it
> because of its large screen, qwerty keyboard, and mathematical
> entry style as opposed to rpn. HOWEVER, if I find that the 50g
> has a better diffy-Q capibility, I will probably use the 50g
> for those tasks.  I am debating if I should buy a 50g now
> or wait and see what bugs turn up,
> thus my interest in this forum.

You can try and test a free 50G at any time,
 from http://www.debug4x.com

Classroom educators are offered this substitute
for the old "overhead projector accessory":
http://www.hp.com/calculators/emulators/usemulator.html
[still says 49G+ rather than 50G, but since ROM is identical,
you can expect completely identical math functionality]

> P.S. Are you an HP agent here to plant information?

"I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of HP"
[nor have I ever even met those guys,
nor even attended a meeting, not even of HHC :]

Free calcs (like were handed out at some HHC)
will be gratefully accepted, however,
even though this will not influence my opinions :)

"Who are those guys?"
http://imdb.com/title/tt0064115/quotes

"Butch, you know that if it were *my* money,
there is nobody that I would rather have steal it than you.
But, you see, I am still in the employment of E. H. Herriman,
of Union Pacific Railroad."

[r->] [OFF]

JB <wjbudd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sincerely, JB  P.S. If the 50g is as good as some people claim, it
> would be dynamite with a larger screen and a qwerty keyboard. I love
> that keyboard because I can enter problems quickly using both hands
> with no concern for whether I pressed the alpha, or alpha lock keys.

I suspect there would be a lot of resistance to crossing the QWERTY 
line, for entirely non-technical reasons.  QWERTY keyboards are often 
used as a convenient dividing line for calculators allowed on college 
entrance exams, certification tests, in college math classes, etc.  
There's no good reason for that to be the case, but the line got drawn 
there, and a calculator that includes a QWERTY keyboard is going to face 
an uphill battle in some markets as a result.

I can certainly understand a desire for a larger screen.  I am primarily 
use my calc for the CAS right now, to avoid lugging a laptop around, and 
most of the formulae I work with extend off the screen.  I'd have paid 
an extra $50 or so for something larger... but then, I'm not a typical 
calculator user.  It's been said here (I'd cite sources, but I don't 
recall) that keeping the HP-49G+ price-comparable with the TI-89 was a 
major driving factor in all sorts of decisions, and the 50G would be no 
different in that respect.

(Speaking of QWERTY keyboards, was there ever a decision reached on the 
technical feasibility of enabling host mode on the USB port of the 
50G/49G+?  I know this was discussed a year or two ago.  I have the 
S3C2410X docs here, but I lack the EE knowledge or understanding of the 
USB protocol to reach a conclusion without too much effort.  I'm not 
proposing to work on this; just curious about feasibility.)

-- 
Chris Smith

Chris Smith wrote:
> JB <wjbudd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Sincerely, JB  P.S. If the 50g is as good as some people claim, it
> > would be dynamite with a larger screen and a qwerty keyboard. I love
> > that keyboard because I can enter problems quickly using both hands
> > with no concern for whether I pressed the alpha, or alpha lock keys.
>
> I suspect there would be a lot of resistance to crossing the QWERTY
> line, for entirely non-technical reasons.  QWERTY keyboards are often
> used as a convenient dividing line for calculators allowed on college
> entrance exams, certification tests, in college math classes, etc.
> There's no good reason for that to be the case, but the line got drawn
> there, and a calculator that includes a QWERTY keyboard is going to face
> an uphill battle in some markets as a result.
>
> I can certainly understand a desire for a larger screen.  I am primarily
> use my calc for the CAS right now, to avoid lugging a laptop around, and
> most of the formulae I work with extend off the screen.  I'd have paid
> an extra $50 or so for something larger... but then, I'm not a typical
> calculator user.  It's been said here (I'd cite sources, but I don't
> recall) that keeping the HP-49G+ price-comparable with the TI-89 was a
> major driving factor in all sorts of decisions, and the 50G would be no
> different in that respect.
>
> (Speaking of QWERTY keyboards, was there ever a decision reached on the
> technical feasibility of enabling host mode on the USB port of the
> 50G/49G+?  I know this was discussed a year or two ago.  I have the
> S3C2410X docs here, but I lack the EE knowledge or understanding of the
> USB protocol to reach a conclusion without too much effort.  I'm not
> proposing to work on this; just curious about feasibility.)

>
> --
> Chris Smith

Chris, you are right concerning resistance to the qwerty keyboard.
However, it is so beneficial to use the standard keyboard layout of a
PC that everyone is familiar with, that I believe the resistance has to
fade.  I can remember when calculators were banned from math classes,
any kind of calculator.  Now they are generally accepted except for the
resistance to CAS in U.S. high schools, but clearly that resistance has
to fold, because clearly we are falling behind other countries in math
education.  I read that U.S. educators resist qwerty because students
can copy test questions and share them.  But that doesn't make any
sense.  They can simply memorize the questions.  I have also read that
qwerty is unacceptable because it makes a calculator a computer.  That
also doesn't make sense because without qwerty a calculator is still a
computer, so the resistance has no basis other than "resistance to
change" but change occurs whether people resist it or not, so I'm
thinking that qwerty will to become the standard in a few years because
it is so beneficial.  When I went to the qwerty keyboard it was like a
breath of fresh air.  The confusion of searching for the right alpha
key was totally gone!  I was wonderful.  So I think it simply has to
become the standard.  Am I being to optimistic?   - JB

On 31 Aug 2006 10:50:08 -0700, "JB" <wjbudd@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I can remember when calculators were banned from math classes,
> any kind of calculator.  Now they are generally accepted except for the
> resistance to CAS in U.S. high schools, but clearly that resistance has
> to fold, because clearly we are falling behind other countries in math
> education.

This seems to imply that 1) other countries make more use of calculators
in high school, and that 2) use of advanced calculators in high school is
correlated with math education. I dispute both points but will address
only the first.

I was under the impression that the U.S. was at the vanguard of
calculator use in high school, often requiring graphing calculator
in high school. My experience is limited and it would be interesting
to hear about people in other countries. I am in Canada and we seem
to be in a transition period: most high school teachers use regular,
non-graphing calculators in their class, some forbid calculators
altogether, but some require their students to buy graphing calculators. 

In my experience (I teach math in college), students coming from a
graphing calculator background can, with their calculator, solve more
complicated problems, but they show less understanding of the math
involved. For example (this happened yesterday), given a simple problem
such as finding all real x such that x^4 >= x^2, they will graph the
two functions and read off the answer from the graph (but will often
give the answer as x<=-1 or x>=1, forgetting the third possibility x=0).
Generalizing the question to ax^4 >= bx^2 (with a and b parameters) will
leave them utterly confused because they cannot plot the graph without
giving values to a and b. Other students who know the algebra will be
able to solve the problem.

My other experience is as a high school teacher in Japan four years
ago. Unless things changed drastically in the past four years,
Japanese high school students do not generally use graphing calculators
in class, and often there is no calculator allowed on tests.

I don't know about Europe and would be interested to know whether
high school math is taught with advanced calculators there.

About CAS: at my college, we show students how to use a computer-based
CAS (Maple) during their first calculus course, in two or three
two-hour sittings. But it is mostly in second-year physics that they
are expected to use it for class assignments.

By the way, after using Maple, I never wanted to go back to a
calculator-based CAS, with its crippled keyboard, tiny screen and
anemic processor. I use a calculator (HP 32SII) for simple number
crunching; anything more complicated goes to Maple.

As for my own policy on calculators, I allow my students to bring
non-graphing calculators to tests, but I always make sure that no
calculator is needed on any question. In the past, I would forbid
calculators altogether, but I found that having the calculator on
the desk gives the student peace of mind, even if they never turn
it on. (But most of them do, and how! What is the cube root of
zero? Quick, reach for the TI-89!)

Paul Guertin
pg@sff.net

Hello Paul, you said:
> I don't know about Europe and would be interested to know whether
> high school math is taught with advanced calculators there.

On the home page of this site, click on the "HP calc customer service"
topic on the right side.  Then go way down to the Tues, Aug 29, 5:55am
posting by Michael Kuyumcu.  This post describes a program going on in
Germany using the new TI inspire cas calculator.  Since I not aware of
any similiar program here in the states it seems to me that we are not
even making the effort to see what the advantages are of such
calculators, thus my opinion that we are behind other countries in
teaching math.

With regard to people who use calculators not doing as well
conceptually,  perhaps these same people would do even more poorly
without the calculator.  I think that this really need some study.

I use a TI voyage 200 calculator and it works well for basic algebra
and calculus problems on the high school level, but I find that when I
give it a real challenging problem it either doesn't solve the problem
or it doesn't simplify the anwer and I end up with a mess.  So based on
your comments, I will be getting Maple.  Thanks. - JB

Paul Guertin wrote:
> I was under the impression that the U.S. was at the vanguard of
> calculator use in high school, often requiring graphing calculator
> in high school. My experience is limited and it would be interesting

???? I wonder if this statement should be taken seriously.

There is a reason why many of the graphical calculators are always 
announced first in Europe and if they work there will make there way in 
the US:
TI 92, TI N'spire, HP49 to name a few...

There is still no curriculum based around CAS either

JY

> There is still no curriculum based around CAS either

Why do you think this is? - JB

JB wrote:
>> There is still no curriculum based around CAS either
> 
> Why do you think this is? - JB
> 

I think it's due to politicians and teachers who learned the hard way 
and want to make it just as hard for others (or harder if they could). 
Like: this is how I learned , you'll do the same...

I found that often math teachers want to move from this, but always get 
knocked back by their department of education.

I think the worse example being the UK, where any graphical calculators 
are practically banned, with one education minister clearly stating a 
while back that people had to learn to count like he used to


JY

Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> JB wrote:
> >> There is still no curriculum based around CAS either
> >
> > Why do you think this is? - JB
> >
>
> I think it's due to politicians and teachers who learned the hard way
> and want to make it just as hard for others (or harder if they could).
> Like: this is how I learned , you'll do the same...
>
> I found that often math teachers want to move from this, but always get
> knocked back by their department of education.
>
> I think the worse example being the UK, where any graphical calculators
> are practically banned, with one education minister clearly stating a
> while back that people had to learn to count like he used to
>
>
> JY

I think you are totally right and it is a shame because it just cheats
the children.  I find that every one has an excuse for not updateing
the curriculum.  It's stonewalling pure and simple.

Paul Guertin wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2006 10:50:08 -0700, "JB" <wjbudd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>I can remember when calculators were banned from math classes,
>>any kind of calculator.  Now they are generally accepted except for the
>>resistance to CAS in U.S. high schools, but clearly that resistance has
>>to fold, because clearly we are falling behind other countries in math
>>education.
> 
> 
> This seems to imply that 1) other countries make more use of calculators
> in high school, and that 2) use of advanced calculators in high school is
> correlated with math education. I dispute both points but will address
> only the first.
> 
> I was under the impression that the U.S. was at the vanguard of
> calculator use in high school, often requiring graphing calculator
> in high school. My experience is limited and it would be interesting
> to hear about people in other countries. I am in Canada and we seem
> to be in a transition period: most high school teachers use regular,
> non-graphing calculators in their class, some forbid calculators
> altogether, but some require their students to buy graphing calculators. 
> 

Australia implemented the use of graphic calculators in high school in 
1996, with university entrance exams from 1998 (at least in W.Aust) 
being written in the expectation that all students would have one. The 
original machine (from HP) was the 38G but new students this year are 
now using the 39gs in W.Aust and the 40gs in some other states that have 
implemented the use of CAS in the classroom (as has New Zealand).



> In my experience (I teach math in college), students coming from a
> graphing calculator background can, with their calculator, solve more
> complicated problems, but they show less understanding of the math
> involved. For example (this happened yesterday), given a simple problem
> such as finding all real x such that x^4 >= x^2, they will graph the
> two functions and read off the answer from the graph (but will often
> give the answer as x<=-1 or x>=1, forgetting the third possibility x=0).
> Generalizing the question to ax^4 >= bx^2 (with a and b parameters) will
> leave them utterly confused because they cannot plot the graph without
> giving values to a and b. Other students who know the algebra will be
> able to solve the problem.

I both agree and disagree with this. We are finding that students tend 
to go too quickly to the calculator and we are intending to implement 
more time in the curriculum on algebra. However at the same time as the 
calculator was introduced there were curriculum changes that involved 
less time spent on algebra so it's an open question in my mind as to 
where the cause lies.


> 
> My other experience is as a high school teacher in Japan four years
> ago. Unless things changed drastically in the past four years,
> Japanese high school students do not generally use graphing calculators
> in class, and often there is no calculator allowed on tests.
> 
> I don't know about Europe and would be interested to know whether
> high school math is taught with advanced calculators there.

Europe has also been using them for years (most countries) and, in fact, 
were generally using CAS before most others.  That's why the next model 
up after the 38G was split into two: the 39G which had no CAS but had 
infra-red (for Australia and the US) and the 40G which had CAS but no 
infra-red (for Europe, which was *really* paranoid about the possibility 
of cheating via infra-red).


> 
> About CAS: at my college, we show students how to use a computer-based
> CAS (Maple) during their first calculus course, in two or three
> two-hour sittings. But it is mostly in second-year physics that they
> are expected to use it for class assignments.
> 
> By the way, after using Maple, I never wanted to go back to a
> calculator-based CAS, with its crippled keyboard, tiny screen and
> anemic processor. I use a calculator (HP 32SII) for simple number
> crunching; anything more complicated goes to Maple.
> 
> As for my own policy on calculators, I allow my students to bring
> non-graphing calculators to tests, but I always make sure that no
> calculator is needed on any question. In the past, I would forbid
> calculators altogether, but I found that having the calculator on
> the desk gives the student peace of mind, even if they never turn
> it on. (But most of them do, and how! What is the cube root of
> zero? Quick, reach for the TI-89!)
> 
> Paul Guertin
> pg@sff.net