Hi everyone,

I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.

Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
exam could be big trouble...

Thanks!

"dRiAn" <sillybilly@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
>
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...
>

I would keep your 48gx, and maybe buy a 49G+ in addition, but not as a
replacement.

The 48GX is going, and will continue to go up in value in the used market.
The 49G+ is, quite simply, inferior to the 48GX in a number of important
ways, for which there is no replacement! (until Qonos!?):
Serial port (49G+ connectivity with SD is not equivalent--and 48GII iuses a
non-standard serial system)
IR on 49G+ is inferior in range (but is faster as an IRDA but incompatible?)
Port/memory/IO structure of 49G+ makes it impossible to use it as a complete
emulator platfrom for the 41 series---whereas the 48 can completely
emulate.....

Not to mention that a number of surveyors seem to feel that these traits are
indispensible, and are willing to pay for them....

and the keyboard....

So, hold on to it, and you will be blessed!

-Bill


> Thanks!

dRiAn <sillybilly@gmail.com> wrote:
: Hi everyone,

: I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
: year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
: calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
: feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
: screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
: some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.

: Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
: also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
: 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
: exam could be big trouble...

From what I understand HP has fixed the problem with the keyboard. I have one of the
early calculators and with time the keyboard has become usable. I did have to apply the
"wiggle" fix on a few of the keys to get them to work reliably. The only complaint I
have with the keyboard these days is the hollow sounding clunk I get when I press a
key.

On the positve side the 49G+ is a lot faster then the 48GX.
-- 




Keep working millions on welfare depend on you
-------------------
fwp@deepthought.com

"dRiAn" <sillybilly@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
>
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...
>
> Thanks!

Keep the 48GX.  I was so impressed with the quality of the 49G, and the
reports of the 49G+, that I bought a second 48GX as a spare and even picked
up a 48G just in case.

Charles Perry P.E.

Keep the 48gx if it satisfies your engineering requirements.  The
newer models are far inferior in quality.

TomCee

I had my 49g+ stolen at work.  I also have a 48gx.  In spite of the
fact that my g+ was an early model with the keyboard problem I intend
to replace it in the next week or two.  Why?

What is happening with the 49g+ right now reminds me of what happened
when Richard Nelson's HP-65 Club got ahold of the first HP-67's,
HP-41's.  The HP user community fixed problems and extended the
machines far beyond their originally designed functionality.  A good
example of what can be accomplished is the PPC ROM for the HP-41 which
today goes for hundreds of dollars, if you can find somebody that
wants to sell one.  What sells me on the g+ is not its current feature
list but the features it will have after another few months of
community hacks.  Consider native StrongARM code, C compilers, better
support for Linux than HP could have imagined, etc.  It even looks
like there might be a way to execute StrongARM code at 200 MHz!  That
makes the 49g+ a very exciting machine.  You won't be able to do these
things on a 48gx.  And if you are a HP calculator junkie like me (45,
65, 67, 41, 48) that's a compelling reason to upgrade.


Best regards,
Arne Flones


sillybilly@gmail.com (dRiAn) wrote in message news:<fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com>...
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> 
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...
> 
> Thanks!

Since i bought my 49G+ few weeks ago i've come to new knowlege.
it is realy much more than i was buying in the first place,

now when i look back and sum all the information i gathered in this short
time i've come to this conclusion:
It is a shame that HP didn't press kinpo guys for higher quality, because
adjusting the spring force, and contact design, combined with maybe modified
mechanism of keyboard scaning would make this product timeless.
anyway... the product (G+) is much more than what's there at first site,
that's for sure and i would recomend
everyone who's in doubt to buy one.

I think in new series of star treck -they should use G+ instead of their
tricorders and silly stuff ;-)

i do hope that QONOS is going to beat the G+ in quality, speed ... etc, but
honestly, 49G+ is the thing i needed:
just the right amount of memory (for a calculator), ARM delivers just the
rigt amount of computational power.
You can wind up the PLL if you lack the power :-) the display is the right
size and resolution, having in mind it IS
a graphing calculator, not a PDA. And it is (due to emulation) compatible
with well known and wonderfull Saturn
architecture.

becouse of pesimistic articles i was in doubt for a short while thinking
that i realy didn't need it,
but, 48GX is a silly tricorder compared to 49G+ in all ways except for
keyboard.
For most of people there is nothing wrong with the keyboard because they
don't type so fast as others anyway.

now when i'm used to the new look of G+ i don't even think it is too
colorfull, nor the case is too bright and gold-metalic like. I think it fits
the shade of the screen on the daylight almost perfectly. Where i couldn't
say the same about older models. In my opinion the biggest challenge for
design taste in users was with 49G and still lot of people bought it, used
it, and are still using it. G+ IS as Eric Rechlin once said "better than 49G
in every single way" !

case design,
display,
connectivity,
processor (speed),
external storage (standard SD/MMC)

manjo

dRiAn wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> 
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...

If you get one of the later 'fixed' units, (such as 
http://commerce.hpcalc.org supposedly sell) then I think the keyboard 
problems talked about on this group are pretty overblown. The keyboard 
isn't perfect, but the failure rate isn't exactly alarming. I don't 
think I've heard anyone here who has bought from hpcalc.org complain yet?

I'm a student as well and I'm too worried, but I naturally always read 
the screen before pressing enter in an exam anyway, no matter what calc 
I use - it always pays to be careful.

Why exactly do you want to upgrade? The speed increase and screen as 
nice, but I thought the CAS would be a better improvement. I wouldn't 
consider the ARM hacks reason to upgrade, so far these have just been 
minor things (and the 200MHz overclock eats batteries like popcorn if 
you leave it at that speed).

I think if you one of the later ones with the fixed keyboard, you will 
be happy. Just don't buy one from a small store with old stock, without 
a chance to try the keyboard properly. I'd try it out in a store if 
possible.


cheers,

Al

> 
> Thanks!

Arne,
you realy got tears in to my eyes, no realy -i mean it !
(i'm with your thought's all the way)

have a nice day !
manjo

"Arne Flones" <flonesaw@longship.net> wrote in message
news:81a0243e.0407261518.7ecebdc0@posting.google.com...
> I had my 49g+ stolen at work.  I also have a 48gx.  In spite of the
> fact that my g+ was an early model with the keyboard problem I intend
> to replace it in the next week or two.  Why?
>
> What is happening with the 49g+ right now reminds me of what happened
> when Richard Nelson's HP-65 Club got ahold of the first HP-67's,
> HP-41's.  The HP user community fixed problems and extended the
> machines far beyond their originally designed functionality.  A good
> example of what can be accomplished is the PPC ROM for the HP-41 which
> today goes for hundreds of dollars, if you can find somebody that
> wants to sell one.  What sells me on the g+ is not its current feature
> list but the features it will have after another few months of
> community hacks.  Consider native StrongARM code, C compilers, better
> support for Linux than HP could have imagined, etc.  It even looks
> like there might be a way to execute StrongARM code at 200 MHz!  That
> makes the 49g+ a very exciting machine.  You won't be able to do these
> things on a 48gx.  And if you are a HP calculator junkie like me (45,
> 65, 67, 41, 48) that's a compelling reason to upgrade.
>
>
> Best regards,
> Arne Flones
>
>
> sillybilly@gmail.com (dRiAn) wrote in message
news:<fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com>...
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> > year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> > calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> > feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> > screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> > some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> >
> > Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> > also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> > 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> > exam could be big trouble...
> >
> > Thanks!

I like the 49G+ and I'm glad I bought it.  My old 48GX became very
slow, and was maxed out with two expansion cards.  The speed of the
49G+ is fantastic, the keyboard is not bad (if you get serial numbers
higher than 352... or so).  My 49g+ calc misses maybe 1/100
keystrokes, and while the 48 keyboard is clearly better (no contest!),
I'm not too perturbed by the occasional keyboard misses.  Exact
integer arithmetic is very nice and does wonders as far as rounding
errors are concerned.  The Computer Algebra System is great and is a
superset of Erable.

Are there quirks?  Sure, alarms sometimes don't activate when they
should.  The polygamma function doesn't work for certain input values.
 Programs are not accepted as arguments for PS-contour plots (but the
48 also displays this anomaly).  Some flags, such as -1, give the same
results (regardless of setting) for commands such as SOLVE, but work
correctly for commands such as QUAD.  Oh, well.  How many iterations
did it take for the 48 series to be finally (almost) bug-free?  From
Rev A to Revision R (if you count the 48SX versions, too).  And the
49g+'s ROM is flash-updatable, so you don't need to send it into the
factory for a firmware update.

I say go for it.  You'll like it.


sillybilly@gmail.com (dRiAn) wrote in message news:<fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com>...
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> 
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...
> 
> Thanks!

Al Borowski <al.borowski@EraseThis.gmail.com> wrote in message news:<4105a015$0$22416$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>...
> dRiAn wrote:
> If you get one of the later 'fixed' units, (such as 
> http://commerce.hpcalc.org supposedly sell) then I think the keyboard 
> problems talked about on this group are pretty overblown. The keyboard 
> isn't perfect, but the failure rate isn't exactly alarming. I don't 
> think I've heard anyone here who has bought from hpcalc.org complain yet?

Al,

Well here's your first then.  I bought my HP48GII & HP49G+ from
hpcalc.org in April 2004 before becoming a Registered Reseller for HP
myself.

I don't believe Eric sold me any early units and the ones I have are
actually not too bad.  And this is by no fault of Eric.  However there
is still no comparison on the keyboards.  The HP48GX/G+ have much
better keyboards than the new HP48GII & HP49G+. I do miss keystrokes
with these new models from time to time.

Performance and functionality wise the HP49G+ out classes the old 48
series 10 times or more.

Oh, you talk about the failure rate is not alarming.  Think of it this
way, how many times does your PC mouse miss a button click?  Or your
PC keyboard miss a key?  Did I hear you say never?  If it did, you'd
be buying a new mouse or keyboard, wouldn't you?

Your obviously a user that doesn't use you HP calculator at a
professional level as calculated results don't seem too important to
you!!

Regards

Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor)
GEOCALC SOFTWARE
Registered Reseller HP Invent
Cairns, QLD, Australia
Email: noel@geocalc.net
WEB: www.geocalc.net

Noel Causerano wrote:
> Al Borowski <al.borowski@EraseThis.gmail.com> wrote in message news:<4105a015$0$22416$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>...
> 
>>dRiAn wrote:
>>If you get one of the later 'fixed' units, (such as 
>>http://commerce.hpcalc.org supposedly sell) then I think the keyboard 
>>problems talked about on this group are pretty overblown. The keyboard 
>>isn't perfect, but the failure rate isn't exactly alarming. I don't 
>>think I've heard anyone here who has bought from hpcalc.org complain yet?
> 
> 
> Al,
> 
> Well here's your first then.  I bought my HP48GII & HP49G+ from
> hpcalc.org in April 2004 before becoming a Registered Reseller for HP
> myself.
> 
> I don't believe Eric sold me any early units and the ones I have are
> actually not too bad.  And this is by no fault of Eric.  However there
> is still no comparison on the keyboards.  The HP48GX/G+ have much
> better keyboards than the new HP48GII & HP49G+. I do miss keystrokes
> with these new models from time to time.

Well, thats a pity. Until now I had belived the new ones were fine.

> 
> Oh, you talk about the failure rate is not alarming.  Think of it this
> way, how many times does your PC mouse miss a button click?  

No, but there are only 2 buttons, and its a bit hard to miss.

Or your
> PC keyboard miss a key?  

Very rarely, but it does happen.

Did I hear you say never?  If it did, you'd
> be buying a new mouse or keyboard, wouldn't you?

No, my point was I personally mistype a key through my own fault more 
often then the keyboard fails. I make more typos then keys get missed. 
If you can type with 100% accuracy, then great. I can't, so I always check.
 >
  Your obviously a user that doesn't use you HP calculator at a
> professional level as calculated results don't seem too important to
> you!!

I'm an engineering student. Of course the result is important to me. The 
last thing I want to do is make a typo in an exam.

Yes, the early keyboards varied from 'OK' (my first unit that failed), 
to complete crap (the service replacement). However, I honestly feel 
that on the newer calculators, the problem is blown out of all 
proportion. Yes, the keys occasionally miss. My typo rate is higher then 
that, so I don't consider it a problem. On an exam, I think you are 
foolish if you don't check the numbers on the calculator before pressing 
enter, even if you think the keyboard is perfect.

Would I have preferred the calculator to cost a few dollars more, but 
have a better keyboard? Of course. But I think the keyboard on my 
current unit is acceptable.

regards,

Al




> 
> Regards
> 
> Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor)
> GEOCALC SOFTWARE
> Registered Reseller HP Invent
> Cairns, QLD, Australia
> Email: noel@geocalc.net
> WEB: www.geocalc.net

I'm with you Al,

Even if i am one of those who think keyboard handling and quality could be
done better:

I miss a key from time to time, but i agree my typing error rate is far
bigger, and
i do agree 100% that under no circumstance you cant push that ENTER or EVAL
without checking the
data you entered. If you don't -you might as well leave the result on the
stack, and re-calculate once again just to be sure that you didn't make any
mistakes.

I mean you have 9 levels of stack, and oportunity to use nice textbook
notation (if you prefere) so it would be a shame not to use it.
So students, engeneers, ... whatever, please do check your input, just to be
sure after all it IS a good habit ;-)

just as a reminder for those who didn't read my posts about keyboard(s):
try to press curssor up, curssor left and space at the same time on your PC
or similar combination and don't be confused too much if your computer
starts beeping
-it's not a sign that buffer is full, it realy can't handle the combination
once you find the combination which is not working right try to use it in a
game or any sofware. Linux, windows etc.. it won't matter.
it is not about hardware, it is the software of keyboard controller
(basicaly Intel's 8042 or 52 microcontroller)

about 90% of todays keyboards can't handle some key combinations -you could
notice that if you tried to play some games on keyboard (2 players on one
keyboard).
On the other hand some older keyboards (cherry) can handle ALL combinations.
But i do remember those were 2x the price of the "common" keyboards.

The old cherry i'm talking about was about $60 way back in 1991.
-standard 102 keys but it can blow away most of todays keyboards.

i'm not sure if you can buy keyboard like that these days at all.
Why ?
because people more offten decided for lower cost than for full
functionality, not realizing at all that they are in fact buying lower grade
product.

manjo

"Helge Gabert" <hgabert@xmission.com> wrote in message
news:1ec3b640.0407262004.9e44ee@posting.google.com...
> I like the 49G+ and I'm glad I bought it.  My old 48GX became very
> slow, and was maxed out with two expansion cards.  The speed of the
> 49G+ is fantastic, the keyboard is not bad (if you get serial numbers
> higher than 352... or so).  My 49g+ calc misses maybe 1/100
> keystrokes, and while the 48 keyboard is clearly better (no contest!),
> I'm not too perturbed by the occasional keyboard misses.  Exact
> integer arithmetic is very nice and does wonders as far as rounding
> errors are concerned.  The Computer Algebra System is great and is a
> superset of Erable.
>
> Are there quirks?  Sure, alarms sometimes don't activate when they
> should.  The polygamma function doesn't work for certain input values.
>  Programs are not accepted as arguments for PS-contour plots (but the
> 48 also displays this anomaly).  Some flags, such as -1, give the same
> results (regardless of setting) for commands such as SOLVE, but work
> correctly for commands such as QUAD.  Oh, well.  How many iterations
> did it take for the 48 series to be finally (almost) bug-free?  From
> Rev A to Revision R (if you count the 48SX versions, too).  And the
> 49g+'s ROM is flash-updatable, so you don't need to send it into the
> factory for a firmware update.
>
> I say go for it.  You'll like it.
>
>
> sillybilly@gmail.com (dRiAn) wrote in message
news:<fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com>...
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> > year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> > calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> > feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> > screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> > some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> >
> > Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> > also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> > 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> > exam could be big trouble...
> >
> > Thanks!

Arne Flones wrote:
> Consider native StrongARM code, C compilers, better
> support for Linux [...]

Heck, I'm waiting for someone to figure out how to PORT
linux to it...   =)

-- 
..-.    .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-<  >  / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-'  |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html

Noel Causerano wrote:
> However there
> is still no comparison on the keyboards.

General question: how tough would it be to perform a transplant?
To put the guts of the hp-49+ into a 48gx and use the 48 keybd?

-- 
..-.    .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-<  >  / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-'  |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html

Al,

Sorry for being so blunt with you.

I'm sure the keyboards have been improved since first release.  I
really can't comment here, as I never had an early model.

Although you must admit there could still be further improvements
done.  There is no point defending HP's efforts, yes they have made
some major improvements, in my opinion there is still need for some
more fine tuning.  If you tell HP that their keyboards are good, they
are not going to improve on them!!!

I'm used to using my HP48GX at a rapid rate, using up the 15 key
buffer, with 99.9% accuracy.  Yes we all make mistakes typing keys,
although when you know you haven't made a mistake and the key doesn't
register, what do you put this problem down to?  And this happens on a
regular basis that you take notice of which is annoying.

If the HP48GX/G+ weren't so good with their keyboards there would
nothing to compare with, there wouldn't be a problem here.

Regards
 
Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor)
GEOCALC SOFTWARE
Registered Reseller HP Invent
Cairns, QLD, Australia
Email: noel@geocalc.net
WEB: www.geocalc.net

Some more about keyboard:
G+ actualy has some advantages in keyboard compared to 48 series.

-navigating the currsor trough text without need to turn off aplha,
-calculator-like (more less standard) keyboard layout (detached cursor keys)
-nicely arranged functions, once you get used to the layout you must love it
Althoug big enter key of the 48 placed near the middle of the keyboard on
the 48
did minimize hand moovement during the use.

my observation about keyboard
once i stopped whining about the keyboard, and allowed myself to addapt i
found myself
realy comfortable using the new G+ (as they say flagship of new graphing
calculator series)

manjo
i wonder why did they bother to make a 48GII ?

"Larry Smith" <larry@wildopensource.com> wrote in message
news:8-adnR4SNsw-NJvcRVn-rg@adelphia.com...
> Noel Causerano wrote:
> > However there
> > is still no comparison on the keyboards.
>
> General question: how tough would it be to perform a transplant?
> To put the guts of the hp-49+ into a 48gx and use the 48 keybd?
>
> -- 
> .-.    .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix:
www.WildOpenSource.com
> | |__ / | \| |-< | |-<  >  / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
> `----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-'  |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
>
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.htm
l
>

> i wonder why did they bother to make a 48GII ?

Manjo,

Well obviously the HP48GII is the budget end.  There will always be
some users that only want to use these calculators because of the
software that comes with them and that's it.  They won't want to know
anything about how they tick or work internally.  So this is
definitely a good option for those people.

Kind Regards

Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor)
GEOCALC SOFTWARE
Registered Reseller HP Invent
Cairns, QLD, Australia
Email: noel@geocalc.net
WEB: www.geocalc.net

> General question: how tough would it be to perform a transplant?
> To put the guts of the hp-49+ into a 48gx and use the 48 keybd?

Larry,

I'm not asking to have the HP48GX keyboard fitted to the HP49G+.  The
look and feel of the new keyboards is great.  They just don't work
like they're expected to.

Seems like the new design wasn't fully tested before it was released
to market.

And I can understand this is just a teating problem for a new design. 
This is still no excuse, customers demand reliability!!

Regards


Noel Causerano (Registered Surveyor)
GEOCALC SOFTWARE
Registered Reseller HP Invent
Cairns, QLD, Australia
Email: noel@geocalc.net
WEB: www.geocalc.net

"manjo" <not-available-spam@rocketmail.com> wrote in
news:ce6mlf$r3e$1@ls219.htnet.hr: 

> Some more about keyboard:
> G+ actualy has some advantages in keyboard compared to 48 series.
> 
> -navigating the currsor trough text without need to turn off aplha,
> -calculator-like (more less standard) keyboard layout (detached cursor
> keys)

The HP-48's use an "inverse-T" cursor key shape.  One placement of cursor 
keys that I have never seen is a T-shaped one.  One aspect of the detached 
cursor key layout that I do not like is the space it takes up.  What I 
would like to see is a calculator with the cursor keys shaped in the 
following manner, with perhaps NXT or DROP/<== where NXT is shown:

**    **    **    LEFT  UP    RIGHT
**    **    **    **    DOWN  NXT

Hey Sam,
Nice idea although i would go for the layout that would be like
PC keyboard so it would be like:
(basicaly it is the same and i wouldn't mind if it would be your way)

** up **
rt   dn   lt

where ** keys could be anything, but i would love to have purge key
somwhere, rather than in tools menu.

manjo

"Sam Hughes" <hughes@rpi.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns953892DF58D1Bhughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
> "manjo" <not-available-spam@rocketmail.com> wrote in
> news:ce6mlf$r3e$1@ls219.htnet.hr:
>
> > Some more about keyboard:
> > G+ actualy has some advantages in keyboard compared to 48 series.
> >
> > -navigating the currsor trough text without need to turn off aplha,
> > -calculator-like (more less standard) keyboard layout (detached cursor
> > keys)
>
> The HP-48's use an "inverse-T" cursor key shape.  One placement of cursor
> keys that I have never seen is a T-shaped one.  One aspect of the detached
> cursor key layout that I do not like is the space it takes up.  What I
> would like to see is a calculator with the cursor keys shaped in the
> following manner, with perhaps NXT or DROP/<== where NXT is shown:
>
> **    **    **    LEFT  UP    RIGHT
> **    **    **    **    DOWN  NXT
>

"manjo" <not-available-spam@rocketmail.com> wrote in
news:cejjom$j8h$1@ls219.htnet.hr: 

> Hey Sam,
> Nice idea although i would go for the layout that would be like
> PC keyboard so it would be like:
> (basicaly it is the same and i wouldn't mind if it would be your way)
> 
> **   up   **
> rt   dn   lt
> 
> where ** keys could be anything, but i would love to have purge key
> somwhere, rather than in tools menu.

That is what the 48 series had.  (I assume the switching of right and left 
was accidental.)  They even had a purge key (shifted).

My question is this:  Is the 49G+ keyboard the same as the 49G, or is
it more responsive?  The 49G has the worst keyboard, and there is no
way I'd plunk a dime down for another mess like that.

"manjo" <not-available-spam@rocketmail.com> wrote in message news:<ce61s8$hm$1@ls219.htnet.hr>...
> I'm with you Al,
> 
> Even if i am one of those who think keyboard handling and quality could be
> done better:
> 
> I miss a key from time to time, but i agree my typing error rate is far
> bigger, and
> i do agree 100% that under no circumstance you cant push that ENTER or EVAL
> without checking the
> data you entered. If you don't -you might as well leave the result on the
> stack, and re-calculate once again just to be sure that you didn't make any
> mistakes.
> 
> I mean you have 9 levels of stack, and oportunity to use nice textbook
> notation (if you prefere) so it would be a shame not to use it.
> So students, engeneers, ... whatever, please do check your input, just to be
> sure after all it IS a good habit ;-)
> 
> just as a reminder for those who didn't read my posts about keyboard(s):
> try to press curssor up, curssor left and space at the same time on your PC
> or similar combination and don't be confused too much if your computer
> starts beeping
> -it's not a sign that buffer is full, it realy can't handle the combination
> once you find the combination which is not working right try to use it in a
> game or any sofware. Linux, windows etc.. it won't matter.
> it is not about hardware, it is the software of keyboard controller
> (basicaly Intel's 8042 or 52 microcontroller)
> 
> about 90% of todays keyboards can't handle some key combinations -you could
> notice that if you tried to play some games on keyboard (2 players on one
> keyboard).
> On the other hand some older keyboards (cherry) can handle ALL combinations.
> But i do remember those were 2x the price of the "common" keyboards.
> 
> The old cherry i'm talking about was about $60 way back in 1991.
> -standard 102 keys but it can blow away most of todays keyboards.
> 
> i'm not sure if you can buy keyboard like that these days at all.
> Why ?
> because people more offten decided for lower cost than for full
> functionality, not realizing at all that they are in fact buying lower grade
> product.
> 
> manjo
> 
> "Helge Gabert" <hgabert@xmission.com> wrote in message
> news:1ec3b640.0407262004.9e44ee@posting.google.com...
> > I like the 49G+ and I'm glad I bought it.  My old 48GX became very
> > slow, and was maxed out with two expansion cards.  The speed of the
> > 49G+ is fantastic, the keyboard is not bad (if you get serial numbers
> > higher than 352... or so).  My 49g+ calc misses maybe 1/100
> > keystrokes, and while the 48 keyboard is clearly better (no contest!),
> > I'm not too perturbed by the occasional keyboard misses.  Exact
> > integer arithmetic is very nice and does wonders as far as rounding
> > errors are concerned.  The Computer Algebra System is great and is a
> > superset of Erable.
> >
> > Are there quirks?  Sure, alarms sometimes don't activate when they
> > should.  The polygamma function doesn't work for certain input values.
> >  Programs are not accepted as arguments for PS-contour plots (but the
> > 48 also displays this anomaly).  Some flags, such as -1, give the same
> > results (regardless of setting) for commands such as SOLVE, but work
> > correctly for commands such as QUAD.  Oh, well.  How many iterations
> > did it take for the 48 series to be finally (almost) bug-free?  From
> > Rev A to Revision R (if you count the 48SX versions, too).  And the
> > 49g+'s ROM is flash-updatable, so you don't need to send it into the
> > factory for a firmware update.
> >
> > I say go for it.  You'll like it.
> >
> >
> > sillybilly@gmail.com (dRiAn) wrote in message
>  news:<fd3a5d80.0407260737.50121010@posting.google.com>...
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> > > year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> > > calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> > > feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> > > screen resolution).  I also have been reading that there seem to be
> > > some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> > >
> > > Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?  I would
> > > also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> > > 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> > > exam could be big trouble...
> > >
> > > Thanks!

dRiAn wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> screen resolution).

The 49g+ is generally faster than the 48GX, especially when
scrolling through browsers, but isn't the 48GX fast enough for
most purposes? The screen contrast is much better than the 48G
series, except perhaps for late production 48 units, but with
ordinary lighting conditions, I've never had any problem reading
the 48 series. I believe that the screen resolution is the same,
but the fonts on the 49 series are smaller and that partially
offsets the improved contrast. The "minifonts" can be especially
annoying to read. The display on the 49g+ is 25% bigger
vertically, so you can see more stack levels at once, seven by
default, partly because the header is moved up into the new pixel
rows, and partly because of the smaller font. But as far as I
know, graphic displays are still restricted to the old 64 pixel
high portion of the display.

The 49g+ does indeed have some interesting features, but I expect
that the 48GX will get you through your studies just fine.

>   I also have been reading that there seem to be
> some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
>
> Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?

Improved yes, but fixed? Well, I think that that depends a lot on
how you stroke the keys. Bang hard on them and they'll probably
work perfectly, but if you've gotten accustomed to using a light
touch from using earlier models, then you may well have a problem
with the 49 series, especially the 49g+.

And of course, with the calculator still in the extremely
"tamper-resistant" packaging, there's no obvious way to tell
whether it's a very early production unit or from the very latest
production lot.

Which reminds me, I'd advise wearing leather work gloves, a heavy
long-sleeved shirt, and expect to use something like tin snips to
open the package; if you're careful (and perhaps a bit lucky), you
ought to be able to get it open without any bleeding. But HP isn't
alone in this; these days a lot of products seem to be packaged in
a way that makes it very difficult to get to the contents.

>   I would
> also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> exam could be big trouble...

If you can easily afford it, then by all means try the 49g+. Many
of the added features are very nice, and even rather useful.

The CAS should be useful, especially for advanced math, but I
suppose that engineering students would be mostly interested in
getting reasonably accurate numeric results, and not so much in
getting a symbolic formula for a result.

The SD card in particular, along with fast transfers, suggests to
me that it may be useful for displaying huge amounts of plain text
notes on the calculator itself, as well as storing probably all of
the formulas and programs you'll ever want. And of course an SD
card and reader is much cheaper than an SRAM card for the 48
series, and doesn't require a battery in the card.

But hang on to your 48GX at least until you're certain that you no
longer want it. I still prefer the 48 series, even the 48SX, when
I want to get some real work done, although the 49 series is more
fun to play around with.

Be aware that the built-in capabilities of your 48GX can be
greatly extended. See http://www.hpcalc.org/ for some examples.

> Thanks!

Welcome!

-- 
Regards,
James

"Sam Hughes" <hughes@rpi.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9538DAA0948E1hughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
> "manjo" <not-available-spam@rocketmail.com> wrote in
> news:cejjom$j8h$1@ls219.htnet.hr:
>
> > Hey Sam,
> > Nice idea although i would go for the layout that would be like
> > PC keyboard so it would be like:
> > (basicaly it is the same and i wouldn't mind if it would be your way)
> >
> > **   up   **
> > rt   dn   lt
> >
> > where ** keys could be anything, but i would love to have purge key
> > somwhere, rather than in tools menu.
>
> That is what the 48 series had.  (I assume the switching of right and left
> was accidental.)  They even had a purge key (shifted).

How about moving like the chessboard queen:
LU  UP RU
LE   X   RI
LD DW RD

Left Up, Up, Right Up
Left, Select, Right
Left Down, Down, Righ Down

[VPN]

"Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP_vpn@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in
news:cf3173$rtv$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi: 

> How about moving like the chessboard queen:
> LU  UP RU
> LE   X   RI
> LD DW RD
> 
> Left Up, Up, Right Up
> Left, Select, Right
> Left Down, Down, Righ Down

Sounds more like the king to me :)


-- 
In a room with thirty-seven people, never have everybody shake each other's 
hand.

"Sam Hughes" <hughes@rpi.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns953E8DC8A6BEChughesrpiedu@130.133.1.4...
> "Veli-Pekka Nousiainen" <DROP_vpn@MAIL.welho.com> wrote in
> news:cf3173$rtv$1@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi:
>
> > How about moving like the chessboard queen:
> > LU  UP RU
> > LE   X   RI
> > LD DW RD
> >
> > Left Up, Up, Right Up
> > Left, Select, Right
> > Left Down, Down, Righ Down
>
> Sounds more like the king to me :)

until you try to hold her under your thumb
(-:
[VPN]

Thanks for all the replys guys, I haven't had a chance to read them
until now.  Some very interesting points have been made.  If I were to
get a 49G+, I would purchase it from Samson Cables (via e-bay) since
they claim to be selling the newer model with the "fixed" keyboard.

Another thing I have noticed are the rediculous amounts of money 48GXs
are being sold for on e-bay at the moment, they seem to be going for
at least $200US and I have seen some go for over $300.  Quite tempting
considering I only paid $150CAD for my mint GX w/ manual less than two
years ago... I could easily purchase a new 49G+ and have cash to
spare...  Would it be foolish to expect the value of these calcs to
continue to rise or would it best to sell now? (assuming that's what I
choose to do)

My 48GX has served me well and I'm sure I could could continue through
my degree with it just fine.  My main concern is how "sluggish" it
feels; with a constant delay after every keystroke, I grow rather
tired of seeing the hour glass symbol.  I'm not a really a fan of
using older technology and the much faster 49G+ just seems like the
next logical step...  I have no patience for slow PCs and this
attitude appears to carry over to calculators as well... I am now well
aware of the quality issues of the 49G+ and I must decide if my desire
for speed will outweigh the negative aspects of this calc. Anyone care
to comment?

I could buy a 49G+ and keep my GX too, but I dislike this idea of
owning two calcs considering I am a student with little spare cash. 
"Upgrading" to the 49G+ would be free and possibly provide enough
extra cash to buy a textbook or two. Any feedback would be
appreciated.

Thanks

"James M. Prange" <jmprange@i-is.com> wrote in message news:<C6vPc.1205$zC1.1082@fe39.usenetserver.com>...
> dRiAn wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have been out of the HP calc scene for a while but now that my 3rd
> > year of Engineering is only a month away I have been considering a
> > calc "upgrade".  I have been reading a bit about the 49G+ features and
> > feel that there are several I could benefit from (mainly speed and
> > screen resolution).
> 
> The 49g+ is generally faster than the 48GX, especially when
> scrolling through browsers, but isn't the 48GX fast enough for
> most purposes? The screen contrast is much better than the 48G
> series, except perhaps for late production 48 units, but with
> ordinary lighting conditions, I've never had any problem reading
> the 48 series. I believe that the screen resolution is the same,
> but the fonts on the 49 series are smaller and that partially
> offsets the improved contrast. The "minifonts" can be especially
> annoying to read. The display on the 49g+ is 25% bigger
> vertically, so you can see more stack levels at once, seven by
> default, partly because the header is moved up into the new pixel
> rows, and partly because of the smaller font. But as far as I
> know, graphic displays are still restricted to the old 64 pixel
> high portion of the display.
> 
> The 49g+ does indeed have some interesting features, but I expect
> that the 48GX will get you through your studies just fine.
> 
> >   I also have been reading that there seem to be
> > some issues with its quality, namely the keyboard.
> >
> > Have these keyboard issues been fixed in the newer versions?
> 
> Improved yes, but fixed? Well, I think that that depends a lot on
> how you stroke the keys. Bang hard on them and they'll probably
> work perfectly, but if you've gotten accustomed to using a light
> touch from using earlier models, then you may well have a problem
> with the 49 series, especially the 49g+.
> 
> And of course, with the calculator still in the extremely
> "tamper-resistant" packaging, there's no obvious way to tell
> whether it's a very early production unit or from the very latest
> production lot.
> 
> Which reminds me, I'd advise wearing leather work gloves, a heavy
> long-sleeved shirt, and expect to use something like tin snips to
> open the package; if you're careful (and perhaps a bit lucky), you
> ought to be able to get it open without any bleeding. But HP isn't
> alone in this; these days a lot of products seem to be packaged in
> a way that makes it very difficult to get to the contents.
> 
> >   I would
> > also like some opinions, should I stick with my 48GX or upgrade to the
> > 49G+?  Keep in mind I'm a student and a few missed keystrokes on a
> > exam could be big trouble...
> 
> If you can easily afford it, then by all means try the 49g+. Many
> of the added features are very nice, and even rather useful.
> 
> The CAS should be useful, especially for advanced math, but I
> suppose that engineering students would be mostly interested in
> getting reasonably accurate numeric results, and not so much in
> getting a symbolic formula for a result.
> 
> The SD card in particular, along with fast transfers, suggests to
> me that it may be useful for displaying huge amounts of plain text
> notes on the calculator itself, as well as storing probably all of
> the formulas and programs you'll ever want. And of course an SD
> card and reader is much cheaper than an SRAM card for the 48
> series, and doesn't require a battery in the card.
> 
> But hang on to your 48GX at least until you're certain that you no
> longer want it. I still prefer the 48 series, even the 48SX, when
> I want to get some real work done, although the 49 series is more
> fun to play around with.
> 
> Be aware that the built-in capabilities of your 48GX can be
> greatly extended. See http://www.hpcalc.org/ for some examples.
> 
> > Thanks!
> 
> Welcome!

Personally I don't like the HP49G+.  I would MUCH rather have an HP48GX.
I exchanged my origional 49G+ through HP support, but they replacement still
misses a LOT of keypresses.  VERY ANNOYING!

I don't care how much faster it is, or how much better the screen is.
If it misses keypresses it's pretty much worthless.

"Dan" <dankirkland@msn.com> wrote in message news:<9s2dnSAYgrM23rfcRVn-pQ@comcast.com>...
> Personally I don't like the HP49G+.  I would MUCH rather have an HP48GX.
> I exchanged my origional 49G+ through HP support, but they replacement still
> misses a LOT of keypresses.  VERY ANNOYING!
> 
> I don't care how much faster it is, or how much better the screen is.
> If it misses keypresses it's pretty much worthless.


True that.  I guess I will stick with my trusty (but slower) 48GX.
LOL, it's hard to hang on to though; every time I use it I feel like I
have a peice of gold in my hand after seeing how much they go for on
ebay :)