f



Is IBM killing iSeries? Yes, IBM is the iSeries muderer!!!!!

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IBM should know, it's just herself  is killing iSeries/400. He invest =
too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access and RPG V .... but =
how many users are planing to use them??? almost NONE! IBM should focus =
on how to imporve the running time performance of Websphere on iSeries, =
How let user can build java/web application as easy as SDA. AS/400 won =
in 1988  because compare with the Unix, VAX/VMS and DOS, AS/400 is such =
easy to be used to create application system. but now, Java on iSeries =
is nightmare. Compare with Unix, Linux and Window platfrom. Websphere on =
AS/400 has very low performance, It's very difficult to be install, Very =
bad SQL/JDBC performance, to build application is as difficult as unix =
and other open system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and =
windows..... so Why user choose iSeries????  almost all my customer =
complain as I said above everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build =
a web base application, I'd rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can =
not give me almost none benefit for Web Application! also AS/400 is not =
a very good DB server too.

Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without the OS/400 =
primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as =
pSeries (RS/6000).=20

What do my customer and I need? A box, cheaper, high performance in =
running Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a ingerated DB2(0 =
config, 0 management)  with support DB2 SQL/PL standard, stable, better =
to have a new WYSIWYG web application developement tools. a host side =
GUI is not necessary and useless.

I do see much more AS.400 user jump to other ship one by one in recent 5 =
year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP HOST/Terminal Server, but =
It's not a good Web/HOST application server or DB Server.

AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! IBM is killing iSeries !!!!!  IBM is =
the iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IBM should know, it's just =
herself&nbsp; is killing=20
iSeries/400. He invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web =
Access and=20
RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them??? almost NONE! =
IBM should=20
focus on how to imporve the running time performance of Websphere on =
iSeries,=20
How let user can build java/web application as easy as SDA. AS/400 won =
in 1988=20
&nbsp;because compare with the Unix,&nbsp;VAX/VMS&nbsp;and&nbsp;DOS, =
AS/400 is=20
such easy to be used to create application system. but now, Java on =
iSeries is=20
nightmare. Compare with Unix, Linux and Window =
platfrom.&nbsp;Websphere&nbsp;on=20
AS/400 has&nbsp;very low performance, It's very difficult to&nbsp;be =
install,=20
Very bad SQL/JDBC performance, to build application is as difficult as =
unix and=20
other open system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and =
windows.....=20
so Why user choose iSeries????&nbsp; almost all my customer complain as =
I said=20
above everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base =
application, I'd=20
rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can not give me almost none =
benefit for=20
Web Application! also AS/400 is not a very good DB server =
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just wish I could install Linux and AIX =
on AS/400=20
box without the OS/400 primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the new =
box as=20
cheaper as pSeries (RS/6000). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What do my customer and I need? A box, =
cheaper,=20
high performance in running Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a =
ingerated=20
DB2(0 config,&nbsp;0 management) &nbsp;with support DB2 SQL/PL standard, =
stable,=20
better to have a new WYSIWYG web application developement tools. a host =
side GUI=20
is not necessary and useless.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I do see much more AS.400 user jump to =
other ship=20
one by one in recent 5 year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP=20
HOST/Terminal Server, but It's not a good Web/HOST application server or =
DB=20
Server.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! IBM =
is killing=20
iSeries !!!!!&nbsp; IBM is the iSeries =
muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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0
hr428 (21)
4/19/2004 10:22:41 PM
comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc 9219 articles. 3 followers. Post Follow

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If you think I'm right, please forward my opinions to your colleagues =
and friends. and let them forward it to his/her colleagues and friends =
too!=20



  "HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message =
news:RiYgc.39416$9kJ.11961@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
  IBM should know, it's just herself  is killing iSeries/400. He invest =
too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access and RPG V .... but =
how many users are planing to use them??? almost NONE! IBM should focus =
on how to imporve the running time performance of Websphere on iSeries, =
How let user can build java/web application as easy as SDA. AS/400 won =
in 1988  because compare with the Unix, VAX/VMS and DOS, AS/400 is such =
easy to be used to create application system. but now, Java on iSeries =
is nightmare. Compare with Unix, Linux and Window platfrom. Websphere on =
AS/400 has very low performance, It's very difficult to be install, Very =
bad SQL/JDBC performance, to build application is as difficult as unix =
and other open system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and =
windows..... so Why user choose iSeries????  almost all my customer =
complain as I said above everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build =
a web base application, I'd rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can =
not give me almost none benefit for Web Application! also AS/400 is not =
a very good DB server too.

  Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without the =
OS/400 primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper =
as pSeries (RS/6000).=20

  What do my customer and I need? A box, cheaper, high performance in =
running Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a ingerated DB2(0 =
config, 0 management)  with support DB2 SQL/PL standard, stable, better =
to have a new WYSIWYG web application developement tools. a host side =
GUI is not necessary and useless.

  I do see much more AS.400 user jump to other ship one by one in recent =
5 year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP HOST/Terminal Server, =
but It's not a good Web/HOST application server or DB Server.

  AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! IBM is killing iSeries !!!!!  IBM =
is the iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01C4263C.DDD23290
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dwindows-1252">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you think I'm right, please forward =
my opinions=20
to your colleagues and friends. and let them forward it to his/her =
colleagues=20
and friends too! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV>"<A href=3D"mailto:HR@HIO">HR@HIO</A>" &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:hr@hio.ca">hr@hio.ca</A>&gt; wrote in message <A=20
  =
href=3D"news:RiYgc.39416$9kJ.11961@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com">=
news:RiYgc.39416$9kJ.11961@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com</A>...</D=
IV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>IBM should know, it's just =
herself&nbsp; is=20
  killing iSeries/400. He invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, =
PASE, Web=20
  Access and RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them??? =
almost=20
  NONE! IBM should focus on how to imporve the running time performance =
of=20
  Websphere on iSeries, How let user can build java/web application as =
easy as=20
  SDA. AS/400 won in 1988 &nbsp;because compare with the=20
  Unix,&nbsp;VAX/VMS&nbsp;and&nbsp;DOS, AS/400 is such easy to be used =
to create=20
  application system. but now, Java on iSeries is nightmare. Compare =
with Unix,=20
  Linux and Window platfrom.&nbsp;Websphere&nbsp;on AS/400 has&nbsp;very =
low=20
  performance, It's very difficult to&nbsp;be install, Very bad SQL/JDBC =

  performance, to build application is as difficult as unix and other =
open=20
  system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and windows..... so =
Why=20
  user choose iSeries????&nbsp; almost all my customer complain as I =
said above=20
  everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, =
I'd=20
  rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can not give me almost none =
benefit=20
  for Web Application! also AS/400 is not a very good DB server=20
too.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just wish I could install Linux and =
AIX on AS/400=20
  box without the OS/400 primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the =
new box=20
  as cheaper as pSeries (RS/6000). </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What do my customer and I need? A =
box, cheaper,=20
  high performance in running Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a =

  ingerated DB2(0 config,&nbsp;0 management) &nbsp;with support DB2 =
SQL/PL=20
  standard, stable, better to have a new WYSIWYG web application =
developement=20
  tools. a host side GUI is not necessary and useless.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I do see much more AS.400 user jump =
to other ship=20
  one by one in recent 5 year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP=20
  HOST/Terminal Server, but It's not a good Web/HOST application server =
or DB=20
  Server.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! =
IBM is killing=20
  iSeries !!!!!&nbsp; IBM is the iSeries=20
  muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00F7_01C4263C.DDD23290--

0
hr428 (21)
4/19/2004 10:33:10 PM
HR said: "IBM...invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access
and RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them???"

Web Access is critical.  A machine without it moot.

RPG V?  Have you seen it?


HR also said: "IBM should focus on how to imporve the running time
performance of Websphere on iSeries"

I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the plague.  So,
I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.

HR continued: "How let user can build java/web application as easy as SDA."

SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing easy about
ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen development is
easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.

HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"

I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than other
platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box.  Doing
the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
complexity.

HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"

You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.

HR said: "Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd
rather use Linux,"

I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when I say I
needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop for
it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took 16 Linux
and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000
iSeries.


HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."

Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed an Oracle
shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed a minimum
of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the
Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during the day.
In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA.  And I
can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.

HR said: "Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without the
OS/400 primary partition soon."

Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who doesn't
seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  You seem
to like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek
stuff that isn't productive.

HR requestes: " And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as pSeries
(RS/6000). "

Agreed.  The iSeries, IMO, is overpriced.  But, look at it from IBM's point
of view.  The iSeries makes a boatload of profit.  The pSeries and xSeries
don't.

HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"

It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, it's
about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.  iSeries
sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.  The
iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 Billion in raw
CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries as
their own.

Finally, HR Stated: "IBM is the iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Charming!


chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/20/2004 3:08:58 PM
My customers don't complain. Are you sure the iSeries is the problem or
could it be you?

-- 
Ed

Remove the capital ST spam trap
when replying directly to me.


"HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
news:RiYgc.39416$9kJ.11961@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
IBM should know, it's just herself  is killing iSeries/400. He invest too
much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access and RPG V .... but how many
users are planing to use them??? almost NONE! IBM should focus on how to
imporve the running time performance of Websphere on iSeries, How let user
can build java/web application as easy as SDA. AS/400 won in 1988  because
compare with the Unix, VAX/VMS and DOS, AS/400 is such easy to be used to
create application system. but now, Java on iSeries is nightmare. Compare
with Unix, Linux and Window platfrom. Websphere on AS/400 has very low
performance, It's very difficult to be install, Very bad SQL/JDBC
performance, to build application is as difficult as unix and other open
system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and windows..... so Why
user choose iSeries????  almost all my customer complain as I said above
everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd
rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can not give me almost none benefit
for Web Application! also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too.

Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without the OS/400
primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as pSeries
(RS/6000).

What do my customer and I need? A box, cheaper, high performance in running
Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a ingerated DB2(0 config, 0
management)  with support DB2 SQL/PL standard, stable, better to have a new
WYSIWYG web application developement tools. a host side GUI is not necessary
and useless.

I do see much more AS.400 user jump to other ship one by one in recent 5
year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP HOST/Terminal Server, but
It's not a good Web/HOST application server or DB Server.

AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! IBM is killing iSeries !!!!!  IBM is the
iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


0
estroudST (9)
4/20/2004 3:43:15 PM
Let me guess, an Linux guy who took a new job and they had an iSeries. 
Tough break, man.  LOL!

The minute you said the iSeries DB was no good, I lost all interest in 
anything you had to say.  And when you said IBM should invest more money 
in Websfear I just quit reading.

So, my advice is to buy a PC, install your favorite distro and MySQL and 
have fun with your pager.


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/20/2004 4:05:58 PM
Me? A AS400 guy since 1990, aslo a Websphere for iSeries guy since 2000, a
Linux for PPC guy since 2002... Now working in a IT consulting company, and
duty is to help IBM sell his advance solution, especially Webpshere on
iSeries stuff...

If you used RPG together with DB2/400, as I said, it's good, but have you
tried JDBC? Have you tried DB2 enterprise connector? tried it and then tell
me if a 80k AS400 is slower then 10k PC server.

Try DB2 SQL/PL the standard DB2 development language on iSeries. tell me
what's your feeling compear with DB2 on AIX. Try running Websphere App
Server on iSeries with 2 GB memory and compare the same hardware on AIX.
Also try EJB on iSereies to see if it faster or just same speed as on Linux
on xSeries ... do you know how much for running Linux on iSeries and on
xSeries?

After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG guy as same
as me 5 years ago.




"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:zTbhc.32122$Lg.19604@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> Let me guess, an Linux guy who took a new job and they had an iSeries.
> Tough break, man.  LOL!
>
> The minute you said the iSeries DB was no good, I lost all interest in
> anything you had to say.  And when you said IBM should invest more money
> in Websfear I just quit reading.
>
> So, my advice is to buy a PC, install your favorite distro and MySQL and
> have fun with your pager.
>
>


0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 2:47:04 PM
Are you customers using  Websphere on iSeries. I didn't say my traditional
customer (RPG/5250) complain the performance. but all Webpshere on iSeries
customer and potential coustmer complain as I said.






"Ed" <estroudST@bak.rr.com> wrote in message
news:c63gen$7clpf$1@ID-121447.news.uni-berlin.de...
> My customers don't complain. Are you sure the iSeries is the problem or
> could it be you?
>
> --
> Ed
>
> Remove the capital ST spam trap
> when replying directly to me.
>
>
> "HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
> news:RiYgc.39416$9kJ.11961@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> IBM should know, it's just herself  is killing iSeries/400. He invest too
> much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access and RPG V .... but how
many
> users are planing to use them??? almost NONE! IBM should focus on how to
> imporve the running time performance of Websphere on iSeries, How let user
> can build java/web application as easy as SDA. AS/400 won in 1988  because
> compare with the Unix, VAX/VMS and DOS, AS/400 is such easy to be used to
> create application system. but now, Java on iSeries is nightmare. Compare
> with Unix, Linux and Window platfrom. Websphere on AS/400 has very low
> performance, It's very difficult to be install, Very bad SQL/JDBC
> performance, to build application is as difficult as unix and other open
> system, even more. Much expensive than unix, linux and windows..... so Why
> user choose iSeries????  almost all my customer complain as I said above
> everyday... Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd
> rather use Linux, but not OS/400! OS/400 can not give me almost none
benefit
> for Web Application! also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too.
>
> Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without the OS/400
> primary partition soon. And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as
pSeries
> (RS/6000).
>
> What do my customer and I need? A box, cheaper, high performance in
running
> Java (EJB, JSP, servlet...) application, a ingerated DB2(0 config, 0
> management)  with support DB2 SQL/PL standard, stable, better to have a
new
> WYSIWYG web application developement tools. a host side GUI is not
necessary
> and useless.
>
> I do see much more AS.400 user jump to other ship one by one in recent 5
> year. AS/400 maybe used to be a very good OLTP HOST/Terminal Server, but
> It's not a good Web/HOST application server or DB Server.
>
> AS/400 is dying! iSeries is dying! IBM is killing iSeries !!!!!  IBM is
the
> iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>


0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 2:49:59 PM
> RPG V?  Have you seen it?

Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my customer say no. they don't
want to change and learn some new.

> I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the plague.
So,
> I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.

You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to Websphere
in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more than more
user begin to use Websphere for their new application system, even some of
my traditional AS/400 user.

> SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing easy
about
> ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen development is
> easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.

Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for JSP? WDSC
can do some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to control
data between DB and Screen.


> HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
>
> I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than other
> platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box.  Doing
> the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> complexity.


so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?
"1) Because you already have > investment in iSeries."
but you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( it's not
as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so have new
Powerful CPU for you iSeires....
"2) It has somewhat better reliability than other platforms."
for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running on OS/400
or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble sometime)
"3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."
but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for similar
performance.



> HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"
>  You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.

When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's my duty
in this company), you will have same experience. do you know how hard to let
my AS/400 user to make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?

> I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when I say I
> needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop
for
> it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took 16 Linux
> and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000
> iSeries.
>

I have never said iSeries is the wonderful box for Terminal/Host
application. but now I'm talking about Web/Host. there are a totally
different story. aslo if you are trying to move a 5250 application from
$155,000 iSeries box to websphere on iSeries, you should double and double
again your budget (exclude software and migration costs). I only hope IBM
can still let you using the old iSeries hardware but just install the linux
on it and you can have the same performance.


> HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
>
> Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed an Oracle
> shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed a
minimum
> of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the
> Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during the
day.
> In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA.  And I
> can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.

you should undertand DB2/400 is not a good DB Server for J2EE application.
please remember I did say any bad words for 5250/RPG stuff  on iSeries.


>
> Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who doesn't
> seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  You
seem
> to like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek
> stuff that isn't productive.

you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist since
1998. but I do have lots experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write this
article just because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users jump to
other platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.

> HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
>
> It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, it's
> about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
iSeries
> sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.
The
> iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 Billion in
raw
> CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries as
> their own.

All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but lots jump to
other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using Websphere.
so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is it mean the
system is going to die?








"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:e2bhc.24549$BB4.17714@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> HR said: "IBM...invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web Access
> and RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them???"
>
> Web Access is critical.  A machine without it moot.
>
> RPG V?  Have you seen it?
>
>
> HR also said: "IBM should focus on how to imporve the running time
> performance of Websphere on iSeries"
>
> I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the plague.
So,
> I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.
>
> HR continued: "How let user can build java/web application as easy as
SDA."
>
> SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing easy
about
> ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen development is
> easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.
>
> HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
>
> I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than other
> platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box.  Doing
> the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> complexity.
>
> HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"
>
> You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.
>
> HR said: "Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd
> rather use Linux,"
>
> I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when I say I
> needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop
for
> it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took 16 Linux
> and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000
> iSeries.
>
>
> HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
>
> Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed an Oracle
> shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed a
minimum
> of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the
> Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during the
day.
> In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA.  And I
> can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.
>
> HR said: "Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without
the
> OS/400 primary partition soon."
>
> Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who doesn't
> seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  You
seem
> to like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek
> stuff that isn't productive.
>
> HR requestes: " And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as pSeries
> (RS/6000). "
>
> Agreed.  The iSeries, IMO, is overpriced.  But, look at it from IBM's
point
> of view.  The iSeries makes a boatload of profit.  The pSeries and xSeries
> don't.
>
> HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
>
> It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, it's
> about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
iSeries
> sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.
The
> iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 Billion in
raw
> CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries as
> their own.
>
> Finally, HR Stated: "IBM is the iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
>
> Charming!
>
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
>


0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 3:30:31 PM
HR,

Ok, I understand your point now.  You don't like Websphere.  On this I
totally agree.   But I don't think that will kill the iSeries.   The iSeries
will be saved by third part products.  What I don't understand is why you
created such a long post and predicted the death of the iSeries simply based
upon not liking Websphere.  Most of us don't like Websphere!   But we don't
give up and predict death, we just find other solutions.

HR said: "After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG
guy as same as me 5 years ago."

I love guys who know everything about me from one post.  LOL myself.

We do a lot of web development in BCD's WebSmart and I gotta tell you
response time is blazingly fast. It approaches green screen response time.
We have hundreds of Websmart programs that are developed in the Websmart
IDE.  No RPG is seen by the programmer but RPG IV ILE is generated by the
product which is why it executes fast.

Not only do I develop in it, I now have 5 of my staff RPG programmers using
it almost exclusively.

But Websmart is not the only third party product that produces great web
pages there are many others.  I also have a web development team of 9
programmers that access the iSeries exclusively via Microsoft .NET and C#
using the HiT native access for .NET.   While their response time isn't as
fast as WebSmart, they are more versatile.

So, in the end, the iSeries is a great platform and it's simply not
necessary to use Websphere to generate web pages.

BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG was
about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be able to
say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many modern
languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near Java.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

"HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
news:IPvhc.9213$SJh1.6478@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Me? A AS400 guy since 1990, aslo a Websphere for iSeries guy since 2000, a
> Linux for PPC guy since 2002... Now working in a IT consulting company,
and
> duty is to help IBM sell his advance solution, especially Webpshere on
> iSeries stuff...
>
> If you used RPG together with DB2/400, as I said, it's good, but have you
> tried JDBC? Have you tried DB2 enterprise connector? tried it and then
tell
> me if a 80k AS400 is slower then 10k PC server.
>
> Try DB2 SQL/PL the standard DB2 development language on iSeries. tell me
> what's your feeling compear with DB2 on AIX. Try running Websphere App
> Server on iSeries with 2 GB memory and compare the same hardware on AIX.
> Also try EJB on iSereies to see if it faster or just same speed as on
Linux
> on xSeries ... do you know how much for running Linux on iSeries and on
> xSeries?
>
> After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG guy as
same
> as me 5 years ago.
>
>
>
>
> "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
> news:zTbhc.32122$Lg.19604@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> > Let me guess, an Linux guy who took a new job and they had an iSeries.
> > Tough break, man.  LOL!
> >
> > The minute you said the iSeries DB was no good, I lost all interest in
> > anything you had to say.  And when you said IBM should invest more money
> > in Websfear I just quit reading.
> >
> > So, my advice is to buy a PC, install your favorite distro and MySQL and
> > have fun with your pager.
> >
> >
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/21/2004 3:45:18 PM
> > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
>
> Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my customer say no. they
don't
> want to change and learn some new.

I think you mean RPG IV, not V, and then not really even that, it's ILERPG.
It's actually pretty good, think of it as RPG400 on steroids and a real
language mixed together to get the best of both worlds.

> You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to
Websphere
> in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more than more
> user begin to use Websphere for their new application system, even some of
> my traditional AS/400 user.

I personally don't like Websphere/EJB that much, but we have it running on
our system for some remote browser users.  Most of the new stuff I do is
VB/VC++/MSAccess on a PC with the 400 being the back end.

> Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for JSP?
WDSC
> can do some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to control
> data between DB and Screen.

We use no Java here at all other than what's needed for Websphere and the
app server.  I don't like Java as a language.

> so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?

Because Websphere ties into what we already have, pure and simple.

> "1) Because you already have > investment in iSeries."
> but you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( it's
not
> as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so have
new
> Powerful CPU for you iSeires....

We only have 1GB on our 820, and while Websphere isn't the fasting thing
this way it's used lightly so no problem.  Websphere is a very small part of
our AS/400's duties.

> "2) It has somewhat better reliability than other platforms."
> for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running on
OS/400
> or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble sometime)

Maybe, but it's somewhat better at running reliably all the tasks we have it
do -- it's not just a Websphere pusher.

> "3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."
> but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for similar
> performance.

You also get more for what you pay for.

> When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's my duty
> in this company), you will have same experience. do you know how hard to
let
> my AS/400 user to make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?

It's darn hard, but that's mainly because what we have works so well.  It's
true that IBM would LOVE to push us to using Websphere/Java, but like you
say, the AS/400 doesn't exactly stand head and shoulders above anything else
except for scalability.

> you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist since
> 1998. but I do have lots experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write this
> article just because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users jump to
> other platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.

Then you're going wrong about how you get your message out, dissing IBM and
Websphere isn't a good way to sell AS/400's.  It's biggest selling point is
what all it can do, both old and new at the same time, all on the same box
and to do it reliably.

> All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but lots jump
to
> other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using Websphere.
> so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is it mean
the
> system is going to die?

Eventually, if IBM does nothing else to distinguish the iSeries, but it wont
be anytime soon, there's lots of users out here. I bet it'll outlive the
pSeries by quite a bit...

- Bob Comer


"HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
news:rswhc.9864$SJh1.9413@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
>
> Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my customer say no. they
don't
> want to change and learn some new.
>
> > I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the plague.
> So,
> > I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.
>
> You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to
Websphere
> in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more than more
> user begin to use Websphere for their new application system, even some of
> my traditional AS/400 user.
>
> > SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing easy
> about
> > ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen development
is
> > easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.
>
> Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for JSP?
WDSC
> can do some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to control
> data between DB and Screen.
>
>
> > HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
> >
> > I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> > investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than other
> > platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box.
Doing
> > the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> > complexity.
>
>
> so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?
> "1) Because you already have > investment in iSeries."
> but you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( it's
not
> as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so have
new
> Powerful CPU for you iSeires....
> "2) It has somewhat better reliability than other platforms."
> for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running on
OS/400
> or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble sometime)
> "3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."
> but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for similar
> performance.
>
>
>
> > HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"
> >  You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.
>
> When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's my duty
> in this company), you will have same experience. do you know how hard to
let
> my AS/400 user to make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?
>
> > I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when I say
I
> > needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop
> for
> > it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took 16
Linux
> > and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000
> > iSeries.
> >
>
> I have never said iSeries is the wonderful box for Terminal/Host
> application. but now I'm talking about Web/Host. there are a totally
> different story. aslo if you are trying to move a 5250 application from
> $155,000 iSeries box to websphere on iSeries, you should double and double
> again your budget (exclude software and migration costs). I only hope IBM
> can still let you using the old iSeries hardware but just install the
linux
> on it and you can have the same performance.
>
>
> > HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
> >
> > Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed an
Oracle
> > shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed a
> minimum
> > of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the
> > Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during the
> day.
> > In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA.  And
I
> > can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.
>
> you should undertand DB2/400 is not a good DB Server for J2EE application.
> please remember I did say any bad words for 5250/RPG stuff  on iSeries.
>
>
> >
> > Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who doesn't
> > seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  You
> seem
> > to like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek
> > stuff that isn't productive.
>
> you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist since
> 1998. but I do have lots experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write this
> article just because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users jump to
> other platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.
>
> > HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
> >
> > It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, it's
> > about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
> iSeries
> > sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.
> The
> > iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 Billion in
> raw
> > CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries
as
> > their own.
>
> All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but lots jump
to
> other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using Websphere.
> so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is it mean
the
> system is going to die?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:e2bhc.24549$BB4.17714@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> > HR said: "IBM...invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web
Access
> > and RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them???"
> >
> > Web Access is critical.  A machine without it moot.
> >
> > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
> >
> >
> > HR also said: "IBM should focus on how to imporve the running time
> > performance of Websphere on iSeries"
> >
> > I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the plague.
> So,
> > I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.
> >
> > HR continued: "How let user can build java/web application as easy as
> SDA."
> >
> > SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing easy
> about
> > ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen development
is
> > easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.
> >
> > HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
> >
> > I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> > investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than other
> > platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box.
Doing
> > the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> > complexity.
> >
> > HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"
> >
> > You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.
> >
> > HR said: "Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd
> > rather use Linux,"
> >
> > I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when I say
I
> > needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop
> for
> > it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took 16
Linux
> > and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000
> > iSeries.
> >
> >
> > HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
> >
> > Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed an
Oracle
> > shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed a
> minimum
> > of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the
> > Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during the
> day.
> > In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA.  And
I
> > can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.
> >
> > HR said: "Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box without
> the
> > OS/400 primary partition soon."
> >
> > Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who doesn't
> > seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  You
> seem
> > to like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek
> > stuff that isn't productive.
> >
> > HR requestes: " And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as pSeries
> > (RS/6000). "
> >
> > Agreed.  The iSeries, IMO, is overpriced.  But, look at it from IBM's
> point
> > of view.  The iSeries makes a boatload of profit.  The pSeries and
xSeries
> > don't.
> >
> > HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
> >
> > It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, it's
> > about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
> iSeries
> > sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.
> The
> > iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 Billion in
> raw
> > CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries
as
> > their own.
> >
> > Finally, HR Stated: "IBM is the iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> >
> > Charming!
> >
> >
> > chuck
> > Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
> >
> >
>
>


0
4/21/2004 4:13:26 PM
HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?"

You've got me stumped there.  I have no reason for using Websphere.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/21/2004 4:42:26 PM
HR asked when asked why his customers complain: "When your work is to face
to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's my duty in this company), you will
have same experience. do you know how hard to let my AS/400 user to make
decision to change to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?"

I think you are in a niche world.  Websphere is a niche product and many, if
not the majority, if iSeries shops do not use it.

If you want an example, look at COMMON.  A few years back COMMON started
devoting a huge number of sessions to Websphere, Websphere applications and
Linux on the iSeries.  What happened?  The attendance dropped from an
average of about 3800 per COMMON conference to about 1800.   For the most
part, people simply just don't care about Websphere or Linux on the iSeries
but IBM and COMMON simply don't get it.

HR stated: "you should undertand DB2/400 is not a good DB Server for J2EE
application."

Could be.  For our public facing web site (40,000 unique visitors per day)
we use .NET and .ASP exclusively.  The iSeries is a nice player in there.
J2EE is a niche product.

HR claimed: "please remember I did say any bad words for 5250/RPG stuff  on
iSeries."

You said that IBM is murdering the iSeries.  Last time I looked "5250/RPG
stuff"  was a subset of the iSeries.  ;-)


HR stated: "All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but
lots jump to other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using
Websphere. so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is
it mean the system is going to die?"

I'd jump ship also if I tried to build my enterprise around Websphere.
However, your experience notwithstanding, IBM sells a ton of iSeries
hardware.  Somebody's buying it.  Your customers may not be within the
circle of the purchases but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of money
is changing hands on iSeries hardware.  Maybe you should look for an
employer that a different set of clientele.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/21/2004 4:54:37 PM
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_039E_01C427A0.450877D0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


> > > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
> >
> > Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my customer say no. =
they
> don't
> > want to change and learn some new.
>=20
> I think you mean RPG IV, not V, and then not really even that, it's =
ILERPG.
> It's actually pretty good, think of it as RPG400 on steroids and a =
real
> language mixed together to get the best of both worlds.

I mean RPG V, the free format RPG. big question is if can you still use =
RPG to develop web application? do not tell me CGI or EASY/400... they =
are only for low end system.=20


>=20
> > You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to
> Websphere
> > in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more than =
more
> > user begin to use Websphere for their new application system, even =
some of
> > my traditional AS/400 user.
>=20
> I personally don't like Websphere/EJB that much, but we have it =
running on
> our system for some remote browser users.  Most of the new stuff I do =
is
> VB/VC++/MSAccess on a PC with the 400 being the back end.

Have you try to develop a PC banking system by VB, C++ or RPG?



>=20
> > Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for =
JSP?
> WDSC
> > can do some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to =
control
> > data between DB and Screen.
>=20
> We use no Java here at all other than what's needed for Websphere and =
the
> app server.  I don't like Java as a language.

If you only work on 5250, of cause you can said it. but how about web =
application?
One of my big customer change BPCS to SAP, they choose pSeries but not =
iSeries.

>=20
> > so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?
>=20
> Because Websphere ties into what we already have, pure and simple.

you mean the experss version, the free one you had from IBM. it dose not =
support EJB.


>=20
> > "1) Because you already have > investment in iSeries."
> > but you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( =
it's
> not
> > as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so =
have
> new
> > Powerful CPU for you iSeires....
>=20
> We only have 1GB on our 820, and while Websphere isn't the fasting =
thing
> this way it's used lightly so no problem.  Websphere is a very small =
part of
> our AS/400's duties.

But I'm talking about the heavy working web application system. How can =
you let a bank believe  to develop a pc banking system base on iSeries =
will be much better then on pSeries?


>=20
> > "2) It has somewhat better reliability than other platforms."
> > for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running on
> OS/400
> > or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble sometime)
>=20
> Maybe, but it's somewhat better at running reliably all the tasks we =
have it
> do -- it's not just a Websphere pusher.
>=20
> > "3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."
> > but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for =
similar
> > performance.
>=20
> You also get more for what you pay for.

but useless, my Web Application user need not the "Menu Driven OS"=20



>=20
> > When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's =
my duty
> > in this company), you will have same experience. do you know how =
hard to
> let
> > my AS/400 user to make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 =
stuff...?
>=20
> It's darn hard, but that's mainly because what we have works so well.  =
It's
> true that IBM would LOVE to push us to using Websphere/Java, but like =
you
> say, the AS/400 doesn't exactly stand head and shoulders above =
anything else
> except for scalability.

If IBM AS/400 department only want to suck the last milk from the AS/400 =
traditional user, but not to take the new maket share, AS/400 will die.=20


>=20
> > you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist =
since
> > 1998. but I do have lots experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write =
this
> > article just because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users =
jump to
> > other platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.
>=20
> Then you're going wrong about how you get your message out, dissing =
IBM and
> Websphere isn't a good way to sell AS/400's.  It's biggest selling =
point is
> what all it can do, both old and new at the same time, all on the same =
box
> and to do it reliably.

>=20
> > All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but lots =
jump
> to
> > other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using =
Websphere.
> > so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is it =
mean
> the
> > system is going to die?
>=20
> Eventually, if IBM does nothing else to distinguish the iSeries, but =
it wont
> be anytime soon, there's lots of users out here. I bet it'll outlive =
the
> pSeries by quite a bit...
>=20
> - Bob Comer
>=20
>=20
> "HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
> news:rswhc.9864$SJh1.9413@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
> >
> > Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my customer say no. =
they
> don't
> > want to change and learn some new.
> >
> > > I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the =
plague.
> > So,
> > > I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.
> >
> > You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to
> Websphere
> > in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more than =
more
> > user begin to use Websphere for their new application system, even =
some of
> > my traditional AS/400 user.
> >
> > > SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing =
easy
> > about
> > > ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen =
development
> is
> > > easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.
> >
> > Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for =
JSP?
> WDSC
> > can do some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to =
control
> > data between DB and Screen.
> >
> >
> > > HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
> > >
> > > I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> > > investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than =
other
> > > platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE =
box.
> Doing
> > > the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> > > complexity.
> >
> >
> > so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?
> > "1) Because you already have > investment in iSeries."
> > but you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( =
it's
> not
> > as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so =
have
> new
> > Powerful CPU for you iSeires....
> > "2) It has somewhat better reliability than other platforms."
> > for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running on
> OS/400
> > or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble sometime)
> > "3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."
> > but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for =
similar
> > performance.
> >
> >
> >
> > > HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above =
everyday"
> > >  You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.
> >
> > When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's =
my duty
> > in this company), you will have same experience. do you know how =
hard to
> let
> > my AS/400 user to make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 =
stuff...?
> >
> > > I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when =
I say
> I
> > > needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and =
develop
> > for
> > > it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took =
16
> Linux
> > > and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a =
$155,000
> > > iSeries.
> > >
> >
> > I have never said iSeries is the wonderful box for Terminal/Host
> > application. but now I'm talking about Web/Host. there are a totally
> > different story. aslo if you are trying to move a 5250 application =
from
> > $155,000 iSeries box to websphere on iSeries, you should double and =
double
> > again your budget (exclude software and migration costs). I only =
hope IBM
> > can still let you using the old iSeries hardware but just install =
the
> linux
> > on it and you can have the same performance.
> >
> >
> > > HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
> > >
> > > Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed =
an
> Oracle
> > > shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed =
a
> > minimum
> > > of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to =
pamper the
> > > Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during =
the
> > day.
> > > In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA. =
 And
> I
> > > can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the =
day.
> >
> > you should undertand DB2/400 is not a good DB Server for J2EE =
application.
> > please remember I did say any bad words for 5250/RPG stuff  on =
iSeries.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who =
doesn't
> > > seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  =
You
> > seem
> > > to like green screen, command lines and all of the other =
Linux-type geek
> > > stuff that isn't productive.
> >
> > you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist =
since
> > 1998. but I do have lots experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write =
this
> > article just because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users =
jump to
> > other platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.
> >
> > > HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
> > >
> > > It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, =
it's
> > > about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
> > iSeries
> > > sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their =
own.
> > The
> > > iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 =
Billion in
> > raw
> > > CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the =
iSeries
> as
> > > their own.
> >
> > All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 user, but lots =
jump
> to
> > other ship. almost no user choose iSeries when he want to using =
Websphere.
> > so if you only can see user jump out but not jump back again, is it =
mean
> the
> > system is going to die?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> > news:e2bhc.24549$BB4.17714@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> > > HR said: "IBM...invest too much money in Webfacing, HATS, PASE, =
Web
> Access
> > > and RPG V .... but how many users are planing to use them???"
> > >
> > > Web Access is critical.  A machine without it moot.
> > >
> > > RPG V?  Have you seen it?
> > >
> > >
> > > HR also said: "IBM should focus on how to imporve the running time
> > > performance of Websphere on iSeries"
> > >
> > > I tend to agree.  Most of us, however, avoid Websphere like the =
plague.
> > So,
> > > I'm not sure that Websphere is a great investment for IBM.
> > >
> > > HR continued: "How let user can build java/web application as easy =
as
> > SDA."
> > >
> > > SDA easy?  You've got to be kidding!  There's absolutely nothing =
easy
> > about
> > > ANY green screen development.  The ONLY reason green screen =
development
> is
> > > easy is because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.
> > >
> > > HR asked: "so Why user choose iSeries????"
> > >
> > > I can think of a couple of reasons...  1) Because you already have
> > > investment in iSeries.  2) It has somewhat better reliability than =
other
> > > platforms.  3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE =
box.
> Doing
> > > the same on other platforms often requires multiple boxes and adds
> > > complexity.
> > >
> > > HR stated: "almost all my customer complain as I said above =
everyday"
> > >
> > > You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.
> > >
> > > HR said: "Honestly If I was ordered to build a web base =
application, I'd
> > > rather use Linux,"
> > >
> > > I've managed a large scale Linux / Solaris shop.  Believe me when =
I say
> I
> > > needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and =
develop
> > for
> > > it.  And the same application we moved from a single iSeries took =
16
> Linux
> > > and 3 Solaris boxes.  About $350,000 in hardware to replace a =
$155,000
> > > iSeries.
> > >
> > >
> > > HR Stated: "also AS/400 is not a very good DB server too."
> > >
> > > Huh?  You lost a lot of credibility with that one.  I've managed =
an
> Oracle
> > > shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, hands down.  I needed =
a
> > minimum
> > > of two DBA (data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to =
pamper the
> > > Oracle database.  Often the database needed to be "bounced" during =
the
> > day.
> > > In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER had a need for a DBA. =
 And
> I
> > > can't remember the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the =
day.
> > >
> > > HR said: "Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box =
without
> > the
> > > OS/400 primary partition soon."
> > >
> > > Ah, there's the hidden agenda.  You're really a Unix/AIX guy who =
doesn't
> > > seem to really understand or have a deep knowledge of the AS/400.  =
You
> > seem
> > > to like green screen, command lines and all of the other =
Linux-type geek
> > > stuff that isn't productive.
> > >
> > > HR requestes: " And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as =
pSeries
> > > (RS/6000). "
> > >
> > > Agreed.  The iSeries, IMO, is overpriced.  But, look at it from =
IBM's
> > point
> > > of view.  The iSeries makes a boatload of profit.  The pSeries and
> xSeries
> > > don't.
> > >
> > > HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"
> > >
> > > It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs, =
it's
> > > about what will make the most profit for IBM that IBM cares about.
> > iSeries
> > > sales, while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their =
own.
> > The
> > > iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.  At $2.5 =
Billion in
> > raw
> > > CPU sales any computer manufacturer would be proud to claim the =
iSeries
> as
> > > their own.
> > >
> > > Finally, HR Stated: "IBM is the iSeries =
muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
> > >
> > > Charming!
> > >
> > >
> > > chuck
> > > Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>=20
> 
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; &gt; &gt; RPG V?&nbsp; Have you =
seen=20
it?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, =
but my=20
customer say no. they<BR>&gt; don't<BR>&gt; &gt; want to change and =
learn some=20
new.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I think you mean RPG IV, not V, and then not =
really even=20
that, it's ILERPG.<BR>&gt; It's actually pretty good, think of it as =
RPG400 on=20
steroids and a real<BR>&gt; language mixed together to get the best of =
both=20
worlds.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000>I mean RPG V, the =
free format=20
RPG. big question is if can you still use RPG to develop web =
application? do not=20
tell me CGI or EASY/400... they are only for low end system.</FONT>=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
&gt; You are quite right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG =
to<BR>&gt;=20
Websphere<BR>&gt; &gt; in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the =
direction of=20
IBM. more than more<BR>&gt; &gt; user begin to use Websphere for their =
new=20
application system, even some of<BR>&gt; &gt; my traditional AS/400=20
user.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I personally don't like Websphere/EJB that much, =
but we=20
have it running on<BR>&gt; our system for some remote browser =
users.&nbsp; Most=20
of the new stuff I do is<BR>&gt; VB/VC++/MSAccess on a PC with the 400 =
being the=20
back end.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>Have you try to develop =
a PC banking=20
system by VB, C++ or RPG?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; Make it clear, =
SDA is a=20
WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for JSP?<BR>&gt; WDSC<BR>&gt; =
&gt; can do=20
some but not quite well. you have to code tons of code to =
control<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
data between DB and Screen.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We use no Java here at all =
other=20
than what's needed for Websphere and the<BR>&gt; app server.&nbsp; I =
don't like=20
Java as a language.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>If you only work on =
5250, of cause=20
you can said it. but how about web application?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>One of my big customer =
change BPCS to=20
SAP, they choose pSeries but not iSeries.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; so Why user =
choose iSeries=20
for "RUNNING WEBSPHERE"?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Because Websphere ties into =
what we=20
already have, pure and simple.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>you mean the experss =
version, the=20
free one you had from IBM. it dose not support EJB.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; "1) Because you =
already have=20
&gt; investment in iSeries."<BR>&gt; &gt; but you have to buy another 2 =
or 4 GB=20
memory for your iSeries box ( it's<BR>&gt; not<BR>&gt; &gt; as cheaper =
as PC=20
memory, aha?) you may need much more batch CPW, so have<BR>&gt; =
new<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
Powerful CPU for you iSeires....<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; We only have 1GB on =
our 820,=20
and while Websphere isn't the fasting thing<BR>&gt; this way it's used =
lightly=20
so no problem.&nbsp; Websphere is a very small part of<BR>&gt; our =
AS/400's=20
duties.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#ff0000 size=3D2>But I'm talking about =
the heavy=20
working web application system. How can you let a bank believe&nbsp; to =
develop=20
a pc banking system base on iSeries will be much better then on=20
pSeries?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; "2) It has =
somewhat better=20
reliability than other platforms."<BR>&gt; &gt; for Webpshere, I can not =
see any=20
really different between running on<BR>&gt; OS/400<BR>&gt; &gt; or AIX ( =
Windows=20
makes some trouble sometime)<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Maybe, but it's somewhat =
better at=20
running reliably all the tasks we have it<BR>&gt; do -- it's not just a=20
Websphere pusher.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; "3) You can go from small to =
very large=20
on a SINGLE box."<BR>&gt; &gt; but you have to pay 2 to 3 times money =
compare=20
with pSeries for similar<BR>&gt; &gt; performance.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; You =
also get=20
more for what you pay for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#ff0000>but useless, my =
Web Application=20
user need not the "Menu Driven OS"</FONT> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; When your work is to face to Websphere for =
iSeries=20
customer ( it's my duty<BR>&gt; &gt; in this company), you will have =
same=20
experience. do you know how hard to<BR>&gt; let<BR>&gt; &gt; my AS/400 =
user to=20
make decision to change to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt; It's=20
darn hard, but that's mainly because what we have works so well.&nbsp;=20
It's<BR>&gt; true that IBM would LOVE to push us to using =
Websphere/Java, but=20
like you<BR>&gt; say, the AS/400 doesn't exactly stand head and =
shoulders above=20
anything else<BR>&gt; except for scalability.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=3D#ff0000>If IBM AS/400 department only want to =
suck the=20
last milk from the AS/400 traditional user, but not to take the new =
maket share,=20
AS/400 will die.</FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; you are totally wrong, I'm a IBM Certified =
AS/400=20
System Sepecialist since<BR>&gt; &gt; 1998. but I do have lots =
experience on=20
Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write this<BR>&gt; &gt; article just because I =
really=20
don't want to see the AS/400 users jump to<BR>&gt; &gt; other platfrom =
one by=20
one, There are too much examples.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Then you're going =
wrong about=20
how you get your message out, dissing IBM and<BR>&gt; Websphere isn't a =
good way=20
to sell AS/400's.&nbsp; It's biggest selling point is<BR>&gt; what all =
it can=20
do, both old and new at the same time, all on the same box<BR>&gt; and =
to do it=20
reliably.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; All I can tell you is I almost not see any =
new=20
AS/400 user, but lots jump<BR>&gt; to<BR>&gt; &gt; other ship. almost no =
user=20
choose iSeries when he want to using Websphere.<BR>&gt; &gt; so if you =
only can=20
see user jump out but not jump back again, is it mean<BR>&gt; =
the<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
system is going to die?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Eventually, if IBM does nothing =
else to=20
distinguish the iSeries, but it wont<BR>&gt; be anytime soon, there's =
lots of=20
users out here. I bet it'll outlive the<BR>&gt; pSeries by quite a=20
bit...<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; - Bob Comer<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; "</FONT><A =

href=3D"mailto:HR@HIO"><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>HR@HIO</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>" &lt;</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:hr@hio.ca"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>hr@hio.ca</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; wrote in =
message<BR>&gt;=20
</FONT><A=20
href=3D"news:rswhc.9864$SJh1.9413@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com"><=
FONT=20
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:rswhc.9864$SJh1.9413@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com</=
FONT></A><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; RPG V?&nbsp; Have you seen =
it?<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Yes, Since 2001, after I upgrade to V5R1, but my =
customer say=20
no. they<BR>&gt; don't<BR>&gt; &gt; want to change and learn some =
new.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I tend to agree.&nbsp; Most of us, however, avoid =

Websphere like the plague.<BR>&gt; &gt; So,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm not =
sure that=20
Websphere is a great investment for IBM.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; You =
are quite=20
right. it's really hard for me to change from RPG to<BR>&gt; =
Websphere<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; in 2000, but it's clear Websphere is the direction of IBM. more =
than=20
more<BR>&gt; &gt; user begin to use Websphere for their new application =
system,=20
even some of<BR>&gt; &gt; my traditional AS/400 user.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; SDA easy?&nbsp; You've got to be kidding!&nbsp; There's absolutely =
nothing=20
easy<BR>&gt; &gt; about<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; ANY green screen =
development.&nbsp;=20
The ONLY reason green screen development<BR>&gt; is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
easy is=20
because you've been doing it so long it's become a habit.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; Make it clear, SDA is a WYSIWYG tool, but where is the the one for=20
JSP?<BR>&gt; WDSC<BR>&gt; &gt; can do some but not quite well. you have =
to code=20
tons of code to control<BR>&gt; &gt; data between DB and Screen.<BR>&gt; =

&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR asked: "so Why user choose=20
iSeries????"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I can think of a couple =
of=20
reasons...&nbsp; 1) Because you already have<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
investment in=20
iSeries.&nbsp; 2) It has somewhat better reliability than other<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
&gt; platforms.&nbsp; 3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE =

box.<BR>&gt; Doing<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the same on other platforms often =
requires=20
multiple boxes and adds<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; complexity.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; so Why user choose iSeries for "RUNNING =
WEBSPHERE"?<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; "1) Because you already have &gt; investment in iSeries."<BR>&gt; =
&gt; but=20
you have to buy another 2 or 4 GB memory for your iSeries box ( =
it's<BR>&gt;=20
not<BR>&gt; &gt; as cheaper as PC memory, aha?) you may need much more =
batch=20
CPW, so have<BR>&gt; new<BR>&gt; &gt; Powerful CPU for you =
iSeires....<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; "2) It has somewhat better reliability than other =
platforms."<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
for Webpshere, I can not see any really different between running =
on<BR>&gt;=20
OS/400<BR>&gt; &gt; or AIX ( Windows makes some trouble =
sometime)<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
"3) You can go from small to very large on a SINGLE box."<BR>&gt; &gt; =
but you=20
have to pay 2 to 3 times money compare with pSeries for similar<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
performance.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR =
stated:=20
"almost all my customer complain as I said above everyday"<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;&nbsp; You must have a bunch of whiners for customers.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; When your work is to face to Websphere for iSeries customer ( it's =
my=20
duty<BR>&gt; &gt; in this company), you will have same experience. do =
you know=20
how hard to<BR>&gt; let<BR>&gt; &gt; my AS/400 user to make decision to =
change=20
to Websphere from 5250 stuff...?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I've =
managed a=20
large scale Linux / Solaris shop.&nbsp; Believe me when I say<BR>&gt; =
I<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; needed, literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it =
and=20
develop<BR>&gt; &gt; for<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; it.&nbsp; And the same =
application we=20
moved from a single iSeries took 16<BR>&gt; Linux<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and =
3=20
Solaris boxes.&nbsp; About $350,000 in hardware to replace a =
$155,000<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; iSeries.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; I have =
never said=20
iSeries is the wonderful box for Terminal/Host<BR>&gt; &gt; application. =
but now=20
I'm talking about Web/Host. there are a totally<BR>&gt; &gt; different =
story.=20
aslo if you are trying to move a 5250 application from<BR>&gt; &gt; =
$155,000=20
iSeries box to websphere on iSeries, you should double and =
double<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
again your budget (exclude software and migration costs). I only hope=20
IBM<BR>&gt; &gt; can still let you using the old iSeries hardware but =
just=20
install the<BR>&gt; linux<BR>&gt; &gt; on it and you can have the same=20
performance.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR Stated: =
"also AS/400=20
is not a very good DB server too."<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;=20
Huh?&nbsp; You lost a lot of credibility with that one.&nbsp; I've =
managed=20
an<BR>&gt; Oracle<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; shop and the iSeries wins, in =
managability,=20
hands down.&nbsp; I needed a<BR>&gt; &gt; minimum<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; of =
two DBA=20
(data base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
Oracle database.&nbsp; Often the database needed to be "bounced" during=20
the<BR>&gt; &gt; day.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; In my 29 years in IBM midrange =
shops I=20
NEVER had a need for a DBA.&nbsp; And<BR>&gt; I<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; can't =
remember=20
the last time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
you should undertand DB2/400 is not a good DB Server for J2EE=20
application.<BR>&gt; &gt; please remember I did say any bad words for =
5250/RPG=20
stuff&nbsp; on iSeries.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; Ah, there's the hidden agenda.&nbsp; You're really a Unix/AIX guy =
who=20
doesn't<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; seem to really understand or have a deep =
knowledge of=20
the AS/400.&nbsp; You<BR>&gt; &gt; seem<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; to like green =
screen,=20
command lines and all of the other Linux-type geek<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
stuff that=20
isn't productive.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; you are totally wrong, I'm a =
IBM=20
Certified AS/400 System Sepecialist since<BR>&gt; &gt; 1998. but I do =
have lots=20
experience on Unix/AIX/Linux too. To write this<BR>&gt; &gt; article =
just=20
because I really don't want to see the AS/400 users jump to<BR>&gt; &gt; =
other=20
platfrom one by one, There are too much examples.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
&gt; It's not about your particular customers or your particular needs,=20
it's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; about what will make the most profit for IBM that =
IBM=20
cares about.<BR>&gt; &gt; iSeries<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; sales, while not =
growing=20
dramatically, are currently holding their own.<BR>&gt; &gt; The<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
&gt; iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of death.&nbsp; At $2.5 =
Billion=20
in<BR>&gt; &gt; raw<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; CPU sales any computer =
manufacturer would=20
be proud to claim the iSeries<BR>&gt; as<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; their =
own.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; All I can tell you is I almost not see any new AS/400 =
user,=20
but lots jump<BR>&gt; to<BR>&gt; &gt; other ship. almost no user choose =
iSeries=20
when he want to using Websphere.<BR>&gt; &gt; so if you only can see =
user jump=20
out but not jump back again, is it mean<BR>&gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt; system =
is going=20
to die?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; "Chuck Ackerman" =
&lt;</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:Sorry@NoSpam.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>Sorry@NoSpam.com</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; =
wrote in=20
message<BR>&gt; &gt; </FONT><A=20
href=3D"news:e2bhc.24549$BB4.17714@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com"><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>news:e2bhc.24549$BB4.17714@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com</FONT></A>=
<FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>...<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR said: "IBM...invest too =
much money in=20
Webfacing, HATS, PASE, Web<BR>&gt; Access<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and RPG V =
..... but=20
how many users are planing to use them???"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
Web Access is critical.&nbsp; A machine without it moot.<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; RPG V?&nbsp; Have you seen it?<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR also said: "IBM should focus on how to =
imporve=20
the running time<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; performance of Websphere on =
iSeries"<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I tend to agree.&nbsp; Most of us, however, =
avoid=20
Websphere like the plague.<BR>&gt; &gt; So,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I'm not =
sure that=20
Websphere is a great investment for IBM.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; HR=20
continued: "How let user can build java/web application as easy =
as<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
SDA."<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; SDA easy?&nbsp; You've got to =
be=20
kidding!&nbsp; There's absolutely nothing easy<BR>&gt; &gt; =
about<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; ANY green screen development.&nbsp; The ONLY reason green screen=20
development<BR>&gt; is<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; easy is because you've been =
doing it so=20
long it's become a habit.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR asked: =
"so Why=20
user choose iSeries????"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I can think =
of a=20
couple of reasons...&nbsp; 1) Because you already have<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =

investment in iSeries.&nbsp; 2) It has somewhat better reliability than=20
other<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; platforms.&nbsp; 3) You can go from small to =
very large=20
on a SINGLE box.<BR>&gt; Doing<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the same on other =
platforms=20
often requires multiple boxes and adds<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
complexity.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR stated: "almost all my customer complain =
as I=20
said above everyday"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; You must have a =
bunch=20
of whiners for customers.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR said: =
"Honestly=20
If I was ordered to build a web base application, I'd<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
rather=20
use Linux,"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I've managed a large =
scale Linux=20
/ Solaris shop.&nbsp; Believe me when I say<BR>&gt; I<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
needed,=20
literally, 3 times as many I.T. people to manage it and develop<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
for<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; it.&nbsp; And the same application we moved from a =
single=20
iSeries took 16<BR>&gt; Linux<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; and 3 Solaris =
boxes.&nbsp; About=20
$350,000 in hardware to replace a $155,000<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
iSeries.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; HR Stated: "also AS/400 is =
not a=20
very good DB server too."<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Huh?&nbsp; =
You=20
lost a lot of credibility with that one.&nbsp; I've managed an<BR>&gt;=20
Oracle<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; shop and the iSeries wins, in managability, =
hands=20
down.&nbsp; I needed a<BR>&gt; &gt; minimum<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; of two DBA =
(data=20
base administrators) at $90,000 each just to pamper the<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; Oracle=20
database.&nbsp; Often the database needed to be "bounced" during =
the<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; day.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; In my 29 years in IBM midrange shops I NEVER =
had a=20
need for a DBA.&nbsp; And<BR>&gt; I<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; can't remember the =
last=20
time I re-IPLed the iSeries during the day.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt; &gt;=20
HR said: "Just wish I could install Linux and AIX on AS/400 box =
without<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; the<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; OS/400 primary partition soon."<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Ah, there's the hidden agenda.&nbsp; You're =
really a=20
Unix/AIX guy who doesn't<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; seem to really understand or =
have a=20
deep knowledge of the AS/400.&nbsp; You<BR>&gt; &gt; seem<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; to=20
like green screen, command lines and all of the other Linux-type =
geek<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; stuff that isn't productive.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt; HR=20
requestes: " And hope IBM sell the new box as cheaper as pSeries<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
&gt; (RS/6000). "<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Agreed.&nbsp; The =
iSeries,=20
IMO, is overpriced.&nbsp; But, look at it from IBM's<BR>&gt; &gt; =
point<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; of view.&nbsp; The iSeries makes a boatload of profit.&nbsp; =
The=20
pSeries and<BR>&gt; xSeries<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; don't.<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; HR claimed: "What do my customer and I need?"<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; It's not about your particular customers or your=20
particular needs, it's<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; about what will make the most =
profit=20
for IBM that IBM cares about.<BR>&gt; &gt; iSeries<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
sales,=20
while not growing dramatically, are currently holding their own.<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
The<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; iSeries is, by no means, showing any signs of =
death.&nbsp;=20
At $2.5 Billion in<BR>&gt; &gt; raw<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; CPU sales any =
computer=20
manufacturer would be proud to claim the iSeries<BR>&gt; as<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
their own.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Finally, HR Stated: "IBM =
is the=20
iSeries muderer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; =
&gt;=20
Charming!<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; =
chuck<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my =
employer.<BR>&gt;=20
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_039E_01C427A0.450877D0--

0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 5:06:44 PM
Sorry to say, I like Webpshere very muhc. I like AS/400 too. but I DO NOT
like what IBM has done on Websphere on iSeries. IBM wants to change
iSeries/400 to be a server for new web age. but IBM goes on a wrong way. See
the Webfacing, Hats and web access.. All IBM wants are relive RPG but not
iSeries itself. this will kill iSeries. I like IBM know, stop improve any
thing about RPG/COBOL/5250 stuff, there are good enough for traditional for
next 100 years. but please focus on the Websphere on iSerese (even pSereies)
and DB2 UDB on iSeries. please remember AS = Application Server or Advanced
Server! The RPG age is gone... it will never come back.






"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:iGwhc.53802$rC5.27082@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> HR,
>
> Ok, I understand your point now.  You don't like Websphere.  On this I
> totally agree.   But I don't think that will kill the iSeries.   The
iSeries
> will be saved by third part products.  What I don't understand is why you
> created such a long post and predicted the death of the iSeries simply
based
> upon not liking Websphere.  Most of us don't like Websphere!   But we
don't
> give up and predict death, we just find other solutions.
>
> HR said: "After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG
> guy as same as me 5 years ago."
>
> I love guys who know everything about me from one post.  LOL myself.
>
> We do a lot of web development in BCD's WebSmart and I gotta tell you
> response time is blazingly fast. It approaches green screen response time.
> We have hundreds of Websmart programs that are developed in the Websmart
> IDE.  No RPG is seen by the programmer but RPG IV ILE is generated by the
> product which is why it executes fast.
>
> Not only do I develop in it, I now have 5 of my staff RPG programmers
using
> it almost exclusively.
>
> But Websmart is not the only third party product that produces great web
> pages there are many others.  I also have a web development team of 9
> programmers that access the iSeries exclusively via Microsoft .NET and C#
> using the HiT native access for .NET.   While their response time isn't as
> fast as WebSmart, they are more versatile.
>
> So, in the end, the iSeries is a great platform and it's simply not
> necessary to use Websphere to generate web pages.
>
> BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG was
> about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be able to
> say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many modern
> languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near
Java.
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
> "HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
> news:IPvhc.9213$SJh1.6478@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > Me? A AS400 guy since 1990, aslo a Websphere for iSeries guy since 2000,
a
> > Linux for PPC guy since 2002... Now working in a IT consulting company,
> and
> > duty is to help IBM sell his advance solution, especially Webpshere on
> > iSeries stuff...
> >
> > If you used RPG together with DB2/400, as I said, it's good, but have
you
> > tried JDBC? Have you tried DB2 enterprise connector? tried it and then
> tell
> > me if a 80k AS400 is slower then 10k PC server.
> >
> > Try DB2 SQL/PL the standard DB2 development language on iSeries. tell me
> > what's your feeling compear with DB2 on AIX. Try running Websphere App
> > Server on iSeries with 2 GB memory and compare the same hardware on AIX.
> > Also try EJB on iSereies to see if it faster or just same speed as on
> Linux
> > on xSeries ... do you know how much for running Linux on iSeries and on
> > xSeries?
> >
> > After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG guy as
> same
> > as me 5 years ago.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
> > news:zTbhc.32122$Lg.19604@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> > > Let me guess, an Linux guy who took a new job and they had an iSeries.
> > > Tough break, man.  LOL!
> > >
> > > The minute you said the iSeries DB was no good, I lost all interest in
> > > anything you had to say.  And when you said IBM should invest more
money
> > > in Websfear I just quit reading.
> > >
> > > So, my advice is to buy a PC, install your favorite distro and MySQL
and
> > > have fun with your pager.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 5:06:46 PM
HR,

If IBM were to focus entirely on Websphere, as you suggest, and ignore the
legacy tools then I will have to agree to the demise of the iSeries.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

"HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
news:GSxhc.10816$SJh1.201@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Sorry to say, I like Webpshere very muhc. I like AS/400 too. but I DO NOT
> like what IBM has done on Websphere on iSeries. IBM wants to change
> iSeries/400 to be a server for new web age. but IBM goes on a wrong way.
See
> the Webfacing, Hats and web access.. All IBM wants are relive RPG but not
> iSeries itself. this will kill iSeries. I like IBM know, stop improve any
> thing about RPG/COBOL/5250 stuff, there are good enough for traditional
for
> next 100 years. but please focus on the Websphere on iSerese (even
pSereies)
> and DB2 UDB on iSeries. please remember AS = Application Server or
Advanced
> Server! The RPG age is gone... it will never come back.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:iGwhc.53802$rC5.27082@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> > HR,
> >
> > Ok, I understand your point now.  You don't like Websphere.  On this I
> > totally agree.   But I don't think that will kill the iSeries.   The
> iSeries
> > will be saved by third part products.  What I don't understand is why
you
> > created such a long post and predicted the death of the iSeries simply
> based
> > upon not liking Websphere.  Most of us don't like Websphere!   But we
> don't
> > give up and predict death, we just find other solutions.
> >
> > HR said: "After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a
RPG
> > guy as same as me 5 years ago."
> >
> > I love guys who know everything about me from one post.  LOL myself.
> >
> > We do a lot of web development in BCD's WebSmart and I gotta tell you
> > response time is blazingly fast. It approaches green screen response
time.
> > We have hundreds of Websmart programs that are developed in the Websmart
> > IDE.  No RPG is seen by the programmer but RPG IV ILE is generated by
the
> > product which is why it executes fast.
> >
> > Not only do I develop in it, I now have 5 of my staff RPG programmers
> using
> > it almost exclusively.
> >
> > But Websmart is not the only third party product that produces great web
> > pages there are many others.  I also have a web development team of 9
> > programmers that access the iSeries exclusively via Microsoft .NET and
C#
> > using the HiT native access for .NET.   While their response time isn't
as
> > fast as WebSmart, they are more versatile.
> >
> > So, in the end, the iSeries is a great platform and it's simply not
> > necessary to use Websphere to generate web pages.
> >
> > BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG
was
> > about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be able
to
> > say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many
modern
> > languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near
> Java.
> >
> > chuck
> > Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
> >
> > "HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
> > news:IPvhc.9213$SJh1.6478@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> > > Me? A AS400 guy since 1990, aslo a Websphere for iSeries guy since
2000,
> a
> > > Linux for PPC guy since 2002... Now working in a IT consulting
company,
> > and
> > > duty is to help IBM sell his advance solution, especially Webpshere on
> > > iSeries stuff...
> > >
> > > If you used RPG together with DB2/400, as I said, it's good, but have
> you
> > > tried JDBC? Have you tried DB2 enterprise connector? tried it and then
> > tell
> > > me if a 80k AS400 is slower then 10k PC server.
> > >
> > > Try DB2 SQL/PL the standard DB2 development language on iSeries. tell
me
> > > what's your feeling compear with DB2 on AIX. Try running Websphere App
> > > Server on iSeries with 2 GB memory and compare the same hardware on
AIX.
> > > Also try EJB on iSereies to see if it faster or just same speed as on
> > Linux
> > > on xSeries ... do you know how much for running Linux on iSeries and
on
> > > xSeries?
> > >
> > > After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG guy as
> > same
> > > as me 5 years ago.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
> > > news:zTbhc.32122$Lg.19604@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> > > > Let me guess, an Linux guy who took a new job and they had an
iSeries.
> > > > Tough break, man.  LOL!
> > > >
> > > > The minute you said the iSeries DB was no good, I lost all interest
in
> > > > anything you had to say.  And when you said IBM should invest more
> money
> > > > in Websfear I just quit reading.
> > > >
> > > > So, my advice is to buy a PC, install your favorite distro and MySQL
> and
> > > > have fun with your pager.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/21/2004 5:20:00 PM
>I mean RPG V, the free format RPG.

That's in ILERPG.  I hardly ever use free format, no need to.

>big question is if can you still use RPG to develop web application?

Yep, all of our web pages are driven by RPG. (and Webfacing for GUI for
ours, but not necessary.)

>Have you try to develop a PC banking system by VB, C++ or RPG?

I've actually worked at a bank holding company, and yes, I did most of my
programming in RPG.

>If you only work on 5250, of cause you can said it. but how about web
application?
>One of my big customer change BPCS to SAP, they choose pSeries but not
iSeries.

As I said, we have more than just green screen, but all the web stuff is
in-house prgrammed here.  (PRMS is our main app)

>you mean the experss version, the free one you had from IBM. it dose not
support EJB.

Websphere Exress currently, started with 3.5, and it most certainly supports
EJB. Webfacing wouldn't work without it.

>But I'm talking about the heavy working web application system. How can you
let a bank believe  to >develop a pc banking system base on iSeries will be
much better then on pSeries?

Just for a webserver itself, i couldn't because I don't believe it myself.

>but useless, my Web Application user need not the "Menu Driven OS"

Then don't try and sell them an iSeries.  (I wouldn't call the AS/400 a menu
driven OS btw, it's MUCH more than that, but for newbies the menus are
nice.)

- Bob Comer



"HR@HIO" <hr@hio.ca> wrote in message
news:ESxhc.10815$SJh1.5843@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...



0
4/21/2004 5:34:12 PM
HR@HIO wrote:

> If you used RPG together with DB2/400, as I said, it's good, but have you
> tried JDBC? Have you tried DB2 enterprise connector? tried it and then tell
> me if a 80k AS400 is slower then 10k PC server.

Yes I have.  You can't blame the response on DB400...  Java itself is a 
pig that should have been killed before it was grasped by the zealots.

> 
> After reading your post, I can not stop LOL, you are only a RPG guy as same
> as me 5 years ago.

See, we both pre-judged each other.  I "mainly" an RPG guy, but I work 
with many platforms/languages.



0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/21/2004 6:10:40 PM
HR@HIO wrote:

> and DB2 UDB on iSeries. please remember AS = Application Server or Advanced
> Server! The RPG age is gone... it will never come back.

Oh man, you must have just found some old copies of News400 or Midrange 
Computing...  even the Java zealots that preached this a few years ago 
are coming around saying RPG is still going strong and a very worthwhile 
tool...  LOL!



0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/21/2004 6:14:19 PM
HR@HIO wrote:
> I mean RPG V, the free format RPG. big question is if can you still use 
> RPG to develop web application? do not tell me CGI or EASY/400... they 
> are only for low end system.

What is that supposed to mean?  I'm constantly helping people get away 
from websfear and move to eRPG, whether it's my own tools, CGIDEV2, what 
have you.  Once they see it work it's a no brainer as far as development 
time, speed and required resources.

Like I always say, if it will run fast using WebSphere, just imagine how 
much faster it will run with eRPG!

Being free-format doesn't make the applications run any better.  I have 
still chosen to stick with columnar RPGIV.  Free format doesn't gain me 
much (except longer compile times possibly).   I'd rather programmers 
focused on learning ILE and good programming techniques instead of 
astetics of your source code.

Java, if done right, does have one major advantage.  The programming 
skills from writing real OO programs will mesh with your ILE skills for 
your business application design.  If you're just writing procedural 
Java (which most do), there's no point except learning a new syntax, 
increasing the necessary resources, and increased consuption of 
alcohol...  LOL...


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/21/2004 6:24:09 PM
HR@HIO wrote:

> Are you customers using  Websphere on iSeries. I didn't say my traditional
> customer (RPG/5250) complain the performance. but all Webpshere on iSeries
> customer and potential coustmer complain as I said.

Then the problem isn't IBM, it's those who force websphere on their 
developers and users.  The more that buy it, the more IBM will push it.

Just like spammers.  If they get 2 responses out of a million emails, 
they'll keep going.

Stop believing everything IBM says about Websphere, and read between the 
lines.  When they sell it to you, they know you've now made a commitment 
to bloated software and new hardware purchases to get your resonse times 
  better (but still no where near green sceen or eRPG applications).


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/21/2004 6:28:58 PM
CGIDEV2 (EASY/400) base on job, Websphere base on thread. if you are only
have 10 to 100 online user, CGIDEV2 is okay, but if there are 100K online
user. how can you still use CGIDEV2?  Java support OO Programming, Can RPG
support it?

(technology background : a job need more resource than a process, a process
need more resurece than a thread) now you know why AS/400 dose not support
Posix FORK API.

Another important thing, if IBM just want low end user to use AS/400 (10 to
100). it's not way that AS/400 can compete with PC server and Winodws and
Linux. iSeries should focus on high end user.




"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:0%yhc.32266$Lg.23586@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> HR@HIO wrote:
> > I mean RPG V, the free format RPG. big question is if can you still use
> > RPG to develop web application? do not tell me CGI or EASY/400... they
> > are only for low end system.
>
> What is that supposed to mean?  I'm constantly helping people get away
> from websfear and move to eRPG, whether it's my own tools, CGIDEV2, what
> have you.  Once they see it work it's a no brainer as far as development
> time, speed and required resources.
>
> Like I always say, if it will run fast using WebSphere, just imagine how
> much faster it will run with eRPG!
>
> Being free-format doesn't make the applications run any better.  I have
> still chosen to stick with columnar RPGIV.  Free format doesn't gain me
> much (except longer compile times possibly).   I'd rather programmers
> focused on learning ILE and good programming techniques instead of
> astetics of your source code.
>
> Java, if done right, does have one major advantage.  The programming
> skills from writing real OO programs will mesh with your ILE skills for
> your business application design.  If you're just writing procedural
> Java (which most do), there's no point except learning a new syntax,
> increasing the necessary resources, and increased consuption of
> alcohol...  LOL...
>
>


0
hr428 (21)
4/21/2004 9:22:32 PM
HR@HIO wrote:
> CGIDEV2 (EASY/400) base on job, Websphere base on thread. if you are only
> have 10 to 100 online user, CGIDEV2 is okay, but if there are 100K online
> user. how can you still use CGIDEV2?  Java support OO Programming, Can RPG
> support it?
> 
> (technology background : a job need more resource than a process, a process
> need more resurece than a thread) now you know why AS/400 dose not support
> Posix FORK API.
> 
> Another important thing, if IBM just want low end user to use AS/400 (10 to
> 100). it's not way that AS/400 can compete with PC server and Winodws and
> Linux. iSeries should focus on high end user.

I think the question is, can Websfear support more than 100 users.

The question isn't if CGIDEV2 (or any CGI programming on the iSeries) 
can support thousands of users, it's if the Apache web server can.  And, 
I'd say that it can.  It is used in many places, and being integrated 
with the iSeries it handles jobs/threads on it's own (with the ability 
to tweak on the user end).

I don't know where you get that it won't handle a load... it's way off. 
  Yet on the other hand, with websfear get 100 simultaneous hits, how 
many jobs/threads and subsequently JVMs will need to start, and what 
affect would that have on a machine....  UGH!


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/21/2004 9:57:58 PM
HR said: "but if there are 100K online user. how can you still use CGIDEV2?
Java support OO Programming, Can RPG support it?"

It's easy to support that number on an iSeries without Websphere.  We do it
just fine in a .NET environment.

Somehow you're caught up in this "it must be Websphere for large site"
mentality.   Take the blinders off and don't believe everything IBM feeds
down the chain.


HR projected: "iSeries should focus on high end user."

IMO, it's undivided and maniacal focus on the high end customers that has
hurt the iSeries.  IBM, until recently, has almost entirely ignored the SMB
user.   They've acquiesced the SMB market to the PC server environment.  Had
IBM taken care of the businesses that built the mid-range in the first place
then the iSeries would be much stronger today.    Instead they focus on
companies like Countrywide or Disney.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/21/2004 10:40:32 PM
"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:iGwhc.53802$rC5.27082@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> HR,
> BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG was
> about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be able to
> say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many modern
> languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near
Java.

Got time to explain why you're adverse to Java?

Sam


0
none9415 (338)
4/23/2004 2:24:02 AM
Sam,

I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for languages that
my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with Java
tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would take a
tremendous time learning Java.

My goal was to be able to deliver web sites from the AS/400 in an
environment that would be easy for all 8 of my AS/400 programmers to learn.
We chose to go with BCD's WebSmart simply because it was easy to learn and
the programmer's could be productive quickly.   Of my 8 programmers, 6 of
them are programming exclusively in WebSmart.  It only takes about 2 days of
mentoring from me and they can have productive file maintenance programs
running.  Within a month they are doing very complicated things in WebSmart.
Add to that, WebSmart produces ILE RPG programs that are lightning fast.
The response times on WebSmart web pages approach green screen response
times.

OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG programmers and
it's often hard to get them to change.

Yeah, I know, you can cite many examples, probably including yourself, of
programmers that picked up Java quickly.  However, I've been a manager of
RPG programmers since 1975 and have tried many things over those 29 years
and I have a good feel for what will be successful.  Java ain't it.

As for my public facing web site, I have 9 programmers in that group and
it's all Microsoft based .NET.  There aren't many .NET programmers that know
Java or care to know Java.   They do fabulous things in .NET and I don't see
any reason to change that at this time.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


"Saml" <none@no_such_isp.com> wrote in message
news:38%hc.48$ft2.1929@eagle.america.net...
> "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:iGwhc.53802$rC5.27082@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> > HR,
> > BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG
was
> > about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be able
to
> > say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many
modern
> > languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near
> Java.
>
> Got time to explain why you're adverse to Java?
>
> Sam
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/23/2004 2:42:04 PM
Thanks for the info.  Wasn't looking for a fight.

I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the most portable
option around. (If it succeeds.)  I've diddled with it, but RPG is where I
still do my real work.

Sam

"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:0X9ic.112$Ng.20@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> Sam,
>
> I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for languages
that
> my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with Java
> tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would take a
> tremendous time learning Java.
>
> My goal was to be able to deliver web sites from the AS/400 in an
> environment that would be easy for all 8 of my AS/400 programmers to
learn.
> We chose to go with BCD's WebSmart simply because it was easy to learn and
> the programmer's could be productive quickly.   Of my 8 programmers, 6 of
> them are programming exclusively in WebSmart.  It only takes about 2 days
of
> mentoring from me and they can have productive file maintenance programs
> running.  Within a month they are doing very complicated things in
WebSmart.
> Add to that, WebSmart produces ILE RPG programs that are lightning fast.
> The response times on WebSmart web pages approach green screen response
> times.
>
> OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
> surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
> things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG programmers and
> it's often hard to get them to change.
>
> Yeah, I know, you can cite many examples, probably including yourself, of
> programmers that picked up Java quickly.  However, I've been a manager of
> RPG programmers since 1975 and have tried many things over those 29 years
> and I have a good feel for what will be successful.  Java ain't it.
>
> As for my public facing web site, I have 9 programmers in that group and
> it's all Microsoft based .NET.  There aren't many .NET programmers that
know
> Java or care to know Java.   They do fabulous things in .NET and I don't
see
> any reason to change that at this time.
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
>
> "Saml" <none@no_such_isp.com> wrote in message
> news:38%hc.48$ft2.1929@eagle.america.net...
> > "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> > news:iGwhc.53802$rC5.27082@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> > > HR,
> > > BTW, in my career I have learned about 23 programming languages.  RPG
> was
> > > about the 15th language I've programmed in.   I'm old enough to be
able
> to
> > > say that I've programmed in Algol, assembler, PL/1, Cobol plus many
> modern
> > > languages such as VB and C#.   But you will NOT catch me anywhere near
> > Java.
> >
> > Got time to explain why you're adverse to Java?
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
>
>


0
none9415 (338)
4/24/2004 1:46:30 AM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> Sam,
> 
> I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for languages that
> my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with Java
> tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would take a
> tremendous time learning Java.

In many cases Java will execute faster than C code.

And Java is certainly easier to learn than C.

> My goal was to be able to deliver web sites from the AS/400 in an
> environment that would be easy for all 8 of my AS/400 programmers to learn.
> We chose to go with BCD's WebSmart simply because it was easy to learn and
> the programmer's could be productive quickly.   Of my 8 programmers, 6 of
> them are programming exclusively in WebSmart.  It only takes about 2 days of
> mentoring from me and they can have productive file maintenance programs
> running.  Within a month they are doing very complicated things in WebSmart.
> Add to that, WebSmart produces ILE RPG programs that are lightning fast.
> The response times on WebSmart web pages approach green screen response
> times.
> 
> OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
> surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
> things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG programmers and
> it's often hard to get them to change.

I suppose it depends on how "simple" you're talking about.  You 
should be able to do a "hello world" example in under 5 minutes, ten 
if you have to keep referring to reference materials.

But I'll agree that many of the support libraries are hard to use. 
The libraries are Java's big shortcoming but also its big strength 
-- they're often buggy, poorly documented, and far from intuitive, 
but there is an enormous amount of functionality there.

> Yeah, I know, you can cite many examples, probably including yourself, of
> programmers that picked up Java quickly.  However, I've been a manager of
> RPG programmers since 1975 and have tried many things over those 29 years
> and I have a good feel for what will be successful.  Java ain't it.

Java's already successful -- in your competitors' shops.

> As for my public facing web site, I have 9 programmers in that group and
> it's all Microsoft based .NET.  There aren't many .NET programmers that know
> Java or care to know Java.   They do fabulous things in .NET and I don't see
> any reason to change that at this time.

Well, I wouldn't touch .NET with a ten-foot pole, so maybe we're even.

-- 
Dan Hicks
All that we send into the lives of others comes back into our own. 
--Edwin Markham

0
danhicks (177)
4/24/2004 2:40:57 AM
Saml wrote:
> Thanks for the info.  Wasn't looking for a fight.
> 
> I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the most portable
> option around. (If it succeeds.)  I've diddled with it, but RPG is where I
> still do my real work.
> 
> Sam
> 

I agree with Chuck on most of his points on Java.  And, I knew the 
portablility factor of Java would come up.  When the truth is, Java is 
only portable if you program it to be portable, which means really 
thinking out and putting extra time/effort into it.

Hello World programs are very portable with little work.  But 
applications that access and manipulate databases can be a little trickier.

Java has it's place, and I actually enjoy programming with it.  But for 
most cases, it's just fun.

Brad


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/24/2004 4:02:20 AM
> "Saml"
> I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the most
portable
> option around. (If it succeeds.)


I recall being told the same thing about Pascal in the early 80's.
My college instructor was ready to bet the farm on it!

IMO, the jury is still out on Java!

Steve


0
4/24/2004 5:10:00 AM
Saml said: "I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the
most portable option around."

Funny.  I've been programming RPG since the '70s.  I've been in the IBM
midrange all of my career.  At my current employer we have a slew of
programs running that were written almost 20 years ago, all in RPG.

I have absolutely, positively no interest whatsoever in portability.   I
will be working in the IBM midrange for at least the next 10 years, maybe
even longer.   Portability is marketing hype.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/26/2004 2:31:10 PM
Saml said: "I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the
most portable option around."

One more comment about portability.....

As a manager I know how it will go.  If we ever decide to move to another
back office platform we'd opt to buy a new third party package and throw
everything we currently have out.   In fact, we're doing just that with our
retail POS software right now.  New software, new software company, all new
POS machines, all new servers.  Absolutely nothing will be preserved from
the old POS system.

Portability has little or NO value in the real world.  The ONLY people who
care about portability are software houses.  They like the fact that they
can hedge their bets by having their applications run on multiple platforms.
The unfortunate side effect of portability is that any code written for
portability can't take advantage of the uniqueness of the iSeries and, thus
generic, watered down, bland code is created.

Do you really want software that can just as easily run on your desktop PC?

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/26/2004 2:39:15 PM
For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.


Jim

"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:na9jc.1638$2P7.310@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> Saml said: "I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be the
> most portable option around."
>
> One more comment about portability.....
>
> As a manager I know how it will go.  If we ever decide to move to another
> back office platform we'd opt to buy a new third party package and throw
> everything we currently have out.   In fact, we're doing just that with
our
> retail POS software right now.  New software, new software company, all
new
> POS machines, all new servers.  Absolutely nothing will be preserved from
> the old POS system.
>
> Portability has little or NO value in the real world.  The ONLY people who
> care about portability are software houses.  They like the fact that they
> can hedge their bets by having their applications run on multiple
platforms.
> The unfortunate side effect of portability is that any code written for
> portability can't take advantage of the uniqueness of the iSeries and,
thus
> generic, watered down, bland code is created.
>
> Do you really want software that can just as easily run on your desktop
PC?
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
>


0
4/27/2004 5:13:33 PM
Jim Thedorf wrote:

> For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
> announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
> announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.
> 

Are you gonna leave us all hanging until June?!?  :)  Are they porting 
OS400 to the PC and only charging a few hundred for it?  That would ROCK.


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/27/2004 5:17:12 PM
Dan Hicks wrote:
> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> 
>> Sam,
>>
>> I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for languages 
>> that
>> my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with Java
>> tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would 
>> take a
>> tremendous time learning Java.
> 
> 
> In many cases Java will execute faster than C code.
> 
> And Java is certainly easier to learn than C.

Embarking on the actuarial exam sequence would probably 
be easier than getting a Ph.D. in nuclear physics, too, 
but is still not a feasible career choice for most of 
us who are mid-career or later.

> 
>> [...]
>>
>> OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
>> surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
>> things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG programmers 
>> and it's often hard to get them to change.
> 
> 
> I suppose it depends on how "simple" you're talking about.  You should 
> be able to do a "hello world" example in under 5 minutes, ten if you 
> have to keep referring to reference materials.
> 
> But I'll agree that many of the support libraries are hard to use. The 
> libraries are Java's big shortcoming but also its big strength -- 
> they're often buggy, poorly documented, and far from intuitive, but 
> there is an enormous amount of functionality there. 
>
> [...]

Here we get to the crux of the matter.  I have been 
hearing for close to seven years how "easy" Java is to 
learn.  Back in 1999, I took a stab at it to try to 
develop a simple time tracking application for an 
insurance TPA, who need to track their associates' time 
on behalf of their clients (they are mostly 
time-and-materials with their clients, just as I am 
with mine.)  I got very badly stuck, had no way of 
resolving the problems, and had to abandon Java; the 
application ultimately was delivered in bad old "green 
screen" using COBOL (they since got a little smarter 
and bought TimeSlips.)

First of all, Java does not seem to me to be an easy 
language to learn, at least to learn well enough to be 
able to do anything USEFUL with it.  As a colleague of 
mine said to the Java instructor at Learning Tree, "I 
need to be able to do something in a hospital patient 
billing sense, NOT make a lampshade change colors."

Every Java book I have looked at admits that making the 
switch to object-oriented thinking is difficult.  I 
have to agree.

Even more than that, though, is that the entire Java 
landscape seems to go through magnitude 7 and higher 
shake-ups every 6 months or so.  Back in 1999, in my 
first attempt, the emphasis seemed to be on 
client-server development.  No one is doing that any 
more.  Along came Java beans, EJB, JSP, J2EE - in fact, 
an entire alphabet soup of ever-morphing gizmos.  As 
much as anything, it's the rest of the support 
environment that makes it difficult to choose how to go.

For example, what one needs to know to be a 
*technically* good RPG or COBOL programmer delivering 
old-fashioned "green screen" and/or batch applications 
has changed very little since the System/38 first appeared:

* good knowledge of RPG and/or COBOL
* DDS, for both display and printer files
* CL, to control the environment
* database concepts

It may take a while for someone new to programming to 
acquire real expertise at all of those, but the basic 
requirements haven't changed.  The biggest changes have 
probably been:

* introduction of ILE concepts
* growing use of SQL

All six of these basic requirements have evolved, but 
relatively slowly.

By contrast, one might go through a couple of Java 
programming classes and buy a couple of good Java 
books, but one is still faced with a tough question: 
how do I really USE this stuff to deliver useful 
business applications?  (The accounting, order 
processing and warehouse staff aren't interested in 
"Hello, world!")

I'm about half-way through "SAMS Teach Yourself Java in 
21 Days", and I still can't answer the basic questions. 
  What's lacking is a basic framework like the one I 
elaborated above for an RPG/COBOL programmer:  I don't 
know HTML, Websphere (or equivalent), J2EE (or even 
what that really is), JSP, and probably at least half a 
dozen other need-to-knows.  I feel like an apprentice 
mechanic who doesn't know where anything else is in the 
garage...and maybe doesn't even know where the garage *is*.

Helpful comments (e.g., "Okay, graybeard, here are the 
8 things you need to know...") very much appreciated.

0
jonball (677)
4/27/2004 6:21:33 PM
If anyone in the L.A. area would be willing actually to
show me how all this new stuff fits together for an
hour or so, I'd be very appreciative.  I'll gladly buy
lunch (not a swanky lunch, though; I don't have a
contract at the moment.)  I'm in Pasadena.

Collapse lines and remove all spaces to form legitimate
e-mail address:

    jonball  52     earth  link     net
                 @               .

0
jonball (677)
4/27/2004 6:55:59 PM
Jonathan Ball wrote:
> If anyone in the L.A. area would be willing actually to
> show me how all this new stuff fits together for an
> hour or so, I'd be very appreciative.  I'll gladly buy
> lunch (not a swanky lunch, though; I don't have a
> contract at the moment.)  I'm in Pasadena.
> 

I wrote a few "mid-sized" java apps a year or so ago.  I still have the 
code, and haven't used or touched it for a long time.  It is what I 
would consider very OO strict.

Once I got to a certain point, the biggest worry was writting applets 
for a "gui" version of the app.  Yucky.  But, as a whole the reusable 
"beans" I wrote were cool.  Including a DB connection manager, 
formatters, and all sorts of things.  JSPs were basically a couple lines..

list.setWhere(sqlWhere);
list.setOrderBy(sqlOrder);
list.load();
list.setFormatter(formatter);

Basically thre an SQL statement to select records from a DB, loaded it, 
then set the formatter for the proper output type (HTML, XML, text, etc...)

But man, it took a LONG time to get there.

I was talking with a former collegue about them looking to start up a 
Java project and I told him I'd send him my sample code to see if I may 
be a candidate.  I believe it was way over his head, or what he wanted 
to do (even though his project would have been 100000 times larger).

The group a few months later decided to go the .Net route.  :)

Brad


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/27/2004 8:46:40 PM
Bradley,

One has to wonder why, when there are so many EASY to use tools, one would
choose to beat their heads against the wall year after year?

Is it because of portability?  Who really cares about portability other than
software houses?  Is any iSeries user going to suddenly decide to move all
of their applications to a Linux server?   (If so, then PHP would be better
to learn than Java!)

Is it because IBM says it should be so?  When's the last time IBM was the
leader in development?  When is the last time IBM developed application
packages?  Would you follow a company that doesn't have experience doing
what you do for a living?

I've always been amazed at the Lemmings found in the IBM midrange world.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:hEzjc.727$28.30@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> Jonathan Ball wrote:
> > If anyone in the L.A. area would be willing actually to
> > show me how all this new stuff fits together for an
> > hour or so, I'd be very appreciative.  I'll gladly buy
> > lunch (not a swanky lunch, though; I don't have a
> > contract at the moment.)  I'm in Pasadena.
> >
>
> I wrote a few "mid-sized" java apps a year or so ago.  I still have the
> code, and haven't used or touched it for a long time.  It is what I
> would consider very OO strict.
>
> Once I got to a certain point, the biggest worry was writting applets
> for a "gui" version of the app.  Yucky.  But, as a whole the reusable
> "beans" I wrote were cool.  Including a DB connection manager,
> formatters, and all sorts of things.  JSPs were basically a couple lines..
>
> list.setWhere(sqlWhere);
> list.setOrderBy(sqlOrder);
> list.load();
> list.setFormatter(formatter);
>
> Basically thre an SQL statement to select records from a DB, loaded it,
> then set the formatter for the proper output type (HTML, XML, text,
etc...)
>
> But man, it took a LONG time to get there.
>
> I was talking with a former collegue about them looking to start up a
> Java project and I told him I'd send him my sample code to see if I may
> be a candidate.  I believe it was way over his head, or what he wanted
> to do (even though his project would have been 100000 times larger).
>
> The group a few months later decided to go the .Net route.  :)
>
> Brad
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/27/2004 9:28:20 PM
Hi,

in Germany we have at the last day in the year Freddi Frinton with Dinner
for one...
same procedure as every year!

Dieter

Jim Thedorf wrote:

> For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
> announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
> announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> "Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:na9jc.1638$2P7.310@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
>> Saml said: "I guess the biggest thing I see for Java is that it may be
>> the most portable option around."
>>
>> One more comment about portability.....
>>
>> As a manager I know how it will go.  If we ever decide to move to another
>> back office platform we'd opt to buy a new third party package and throw
>> everything we currently have out.   In fact, we're doing just that with
> our
>> retail POS software right now.  New software, new software company, all
> new
>> POS machines, all new servers.  Absolutely nothing will be preserved from
>> the old POS system.
>>
>> Portability has little or NO value in the real world.  The ONLY people
>> who
>> care about portability are software houses.  They like the fact that they
>> can hedge their bets by having their applications run on multiple
> platforms.
>> The unfortunate side effect of portability is that any code written for
>> portability can't take advantage of the uniqueness of the iSeries and,
> thus
>> generic, watered down, bland code is created.
>>
>> Do you really want software that can just as easily run on your desktop
> PC?
>>
>> chuck
>> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>>
>>

0
4/27/2004 10:09:53 PM
"Jonathan Ball" <jonball@whitehouse.not> wrote in message
news:Nwxjc.11989$eZ5.5367@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> First of all, Java does not seem to me to be an easy
> language to learn, at least to learn well enough to be
> able to do anything USEFUL with it.  As a colleague of
> mine said to the Java instructor at Learning Tree, "I
> need to be able to do something in a hospital patient
> billing sense, NOT make a lampshade change colors."
>

This is a problem with JAVA's origin I believe. For whatever reason they
based Java on the C derived stream of languages. Perhaps it was to offer an
easy cut-over for the existing C and C++ programming base. MS appears to
have done the same with their C# language.

Personally, I find this syntax quite archaic. It really was an opportunity
to bounce into a "cleaner" structure and it was missed (eg the transition
from BASIC to Visual Basic back in the distant past). An interesting
sideline with VB is the lack of take up of VB.NET and ASP.NET (using VB.NET)
from the VB6 programmers out there. It seems there is a sizable body of
programming revolving around basic data entry forms and the newer class
features are just not exciting them. Remind you of any AS400 programmers?

I really like the power of OO programming but they really need to clean the
languages up so people can focus on the actual OO concepts and practices
rather than the language syntax..


RJ.


0
DBDriver (97)
4/27/2004 11:05:46 PM
"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:UfAjc.57004$fj.56614@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> Bradley,
>
> One has to wonder why, when there are so many EASY to use tools, one would
> choose to beat their heads against the wall year after year?
>
> Is it because of portability?  Who really cares about portability other
than
> software houses?  Is any iSeries user going to suddenly decide to move all
> of their applications to a Linux server?   (If so, then PHP would be
better
> to learn than Java!)
>

You are right on the dot Chuck. Portability is for Software Developers. It
is ironic in a newsgroup dedicated to a proprietary box with a proprietary
operating system that this portability issue is raised. The push will be to
provide the solution. As a sizable chunk of commercial programmers follow
the MS model this will mean an IIS server somewhere in the backend.

For instance, Chuck mentioned in an earlier post that his people moved some
of their programming base to ASP.NET. In effect they are moving the services
off the AS/400. Now at what point does the AS/400 become redundant in this
schema except as possibly a database server?

IBM has 2 options. They really need to turn on full support for "all" Web
Serving technologies (especially an ASP.NET service - this would be a killer
release at the moment). They also need to optimise every external database
interface (eg. ADO, ODBC, JDBC) beyond that of it's competitors. This is not
easy given the various EBCDIC/ASCII translations etc that go on with the
AS/400. They may have to review this as well given the rest of the
"computing" world talks with an alternative character set. No sense fighting
with one hand tied behind your back.


> Is it because IBM says it should be so?  When's the last time IBM was the
> leader in development?  When is the last time IBM developed application
> packages?  Would you follow a company that doesn't have experience doing
> what you do for a living?
>
> I've always been amazed at the Lemmings found in the IBM midrange world.
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
>


0
DBDriver (97)
4/27/2004 11:22:05 PM
Jonathan Ball wrote:
> Dan Hicks wrote:
> 
>> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
>>
>>> Sam,
>>>
>>> I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for 
>>> languages that
>>> my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with Java
>>> tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would 
>>> take a
>>> tremendous time learning Java.
>>
>>
>>
>> In many cases Java will execute faster than C code.
>>
>> And Java is certainly easier to learn than C.
> 
> 
> Embarking on the actuarial exam sequence would probably be easier than 
> getting a Ph.D. in nuclear physics, too, but is still not a feasible 
> career choice for most of us who are mid-career or later.

Java is not that complicated, really.  It's much simpler than C or 
PL/I or COBOL.  Sure, it's different from RPG, but then what 
wouldn't be.

>>> [...]
>>>
>>> OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
>>> surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
>>> things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG 
>>> programmers and it's often hard to get them to change.
>>
>>
>>
>> I suppose it depends on how "simple" you're talking about.  You should 
>> be able to do a "hello world" example in under 5 minutes, ten if you 
>> have to keep referring to reference materials.
>>
>> But I'll agree that many of the support libraries are hard to use. The 
>> libraries are Java's big shortcoming but also its big strength -- 
>> they're often buggy, poorly documented, and far from intuitive, but 
>> there is an enormous amount of functionality there.
>> [...]
> 
> 
> Here we get to the crux of the matter.  I have been hearing for close to 
> seven years how "easy" Java is to learn.  Back in 1999, I took a stab at 
> it to try to develop a simple time tracking application for an insurance 
> TPA, who need to track their associates' time on behalf of their clients 
> (they are mostly time-and-materials with their clients, just as I am 
> with mine.)  I got very badly stuck, had no way of resolving the 
> problems, and had to abandon Java; the application ultimately was 
> delivered in bad old "green screen" using COBOL (they since got a little 
> smarter and bought TimeSlips.)

I think you started with with an application that was much too 
complicated.

> First of all, Java does not seem to me to be an easy language to learn, 
> at least to learn well enough to be able to do anything USEFUL with it.  
> As a colleague of mine said to the Java instructor at Learning Tree, "I 
> need to be able to do something in a hospital patient billing sense, NOT 
> make a lampshade change colors."
> 
> Every Java book I have looked at admits that making the switch to 
> object-oriented thinking is difficult.  I have to agree.

Making the switch to object-oriented isn't intellectually difficult, 
it's simply disorienting.  You have to learn some new concepts, not 
just new rules, and discard some "truths" that you are really 
comfortable with.

> Even more than that, though, is that the entire Java landscape seems to 
> go through magnitude 7 and higher shake-ups every 6 months or so.  Back 
> in 1999, in my first attempt, the emphasis seemed to be on client-server 
> development.  No one is doing that any more.  Along came Java beans, 
> EJB, JSP, J2EE - in fact, an entire alphabet soup of ever-morphing 
> gizmos.  As much as anything, it's the rest of the support environment 
> that makes it difficult to choose how to go.

You have a valid complaint here.  But you don't have to keep 
learning the latest buzzwords -- just find a subset that does what 
you want and stick to it.  Of course, picking that subset is 
difficult, and understanding it (the library of functions) is also 
difficult.  But once you learn it it won't go away, at least not for 
a good number of years.

> For example, what one needs to know to be a *technically* good RPG or 
> COBOL programmer delivering old-fashioned "green screen" and/or batch 
> applications has changed very little since the System/38 first appeared:
> 
> * good knowledge of RPG and/or COBOL
> * DDS, for both display and printer files
> * CL, to control the environment
> * database concepts

With RPG/3 and earlier you had to learn the "cycle" to comprehend 
the language.  This is a concept that, like object-oriented, is 
something that you have to bend your mind around, vs just applying 
rote learning on the subject.

(Then RPG/4 brought back a lot of procedural stuff, probably 
disorienting the folks who knew only the cycle.)

> It may take a while for someone new to programming to acquire real 
> expertise at all of those, but the basic requirements haven't changed.  
> The biggest changes have probably been:
> 
> * introduction of ILE concepts
> * growing use of SQL
> 
> All six of these basic requirements have evolved, but relatively slowly.
> 
> By contrast, one might go through a couple of Java programming classes 
> and buy a couple of good Java books, but one is still faced with a tough 
> question: how do I really USE this stuff to deliver useful business 
> applications?  (The accounting, order processing and warehouse staff 
> aren't interested in "Hello, world!")

I'd say that someone dropped in the middle of SQL wouldn't have the 
foggiest idea how to use it either, especially if they had no other 
database experience.  But most of you were introduced to SQL in 
stages, and only after learning some basic DB concepts, so it didn't 
seem disorienting.

> I'm about half-way through "SAMS Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days", and I 
> still can't answer the basic questions.  What's lacking is a basic 
> framework like the one I elaborated above for an RPG/COBOL programmer:  
> I don't know HTML, Websphere (or equivalent), J2EE (or even what that 
> really is), JSP, and probably at least half a dozen other 
> need-to-knows.  I feel like an apprentice mechanic who doesn't know 
> where anything else is in the garage...and maybe doesn't even know where 
> the garage *is*.

Yeah, I tried the "Java in 21 days" book some years back and gave up 
too.  Now I just learn what I need to know and ignore the rest. 
It's much more manageable that way.

-- 
Dan Hicks
He who knows others is wise.  He who knows himself is enlightened.

0
danhicks (177)
4/28/2004 12:04:45 AM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> Bradley,
> 
> One has to wonder why, when there are so many EASY to use tools, one would
> choose to beat their heads against the wall year after year?
> 
> Is it because of portability?  Who really cares about portability other than
> software houses?  Is any iSeries user going to suddenly decide to move all
> of their applications to a Linux server?   (If so, then PHP would be better
> to learn than Java!)
> 
> Is it because IBM says it should be so?  When's the last time IBM was the
> leader in development?  When is the last time IBM developed application
> packages?  Would you follow a company that doesn't have experience doing
> what you do for a living?
> 

I think you hit the nail on the head here, Chuck.  IBM says so.  I hear 
it all the time when I speak with groups, at conferences, or even 
consult with the hundreds of shops I deal with.

When it all comes down to the reason, it's because IBM says so.  Why 
does IBM say so?  First, they'll make money of the dreaded Websfear. 
Second, once they have you snagged, they yank the line after you realize 
you need a box with 50x the power, and they get another sale on hardware.

Brad
www.bvstools.com


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/28/2004 1:07:38 PM
There's a Wrox Press book called "Begining Java Objects" that I found
very helpfull -- even after doing a few Java projects myself.

It focuses more on the why or when you do something instead of on the
how (which is usually the easy part once you know you need to do it).
It also picks one example that's quasi real world (a student
registration system) and sticks with it through-out the book.

Matt

Jonathan Ball <jonball@whitehouse.not> wrote in message news:<31yjc.12023$eZ5.4452@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> If anyone in the L.A. area would be willing actually to
> show me how all this new stuff fits together for an
> hour or so, I'd be very appreciative.  I'll gladly buy
> lunch (not a swanky lunch, though; I don't have a
> contract at the moment.)  I'm in Pasadena.
> 
> Collapse lines and remove all spaces to form legitimate
> e-mail address:
> 
>     jonball  52     earth  link     net
>                  @               .
0
matt.haas (139)
4/28/2004 1:23:30 PM
Matt Haas wrote:
> There's a Wrox Press book called "Begining Java Objects" that I found
> very helpfull -- even after doing a few Java projects myself.
> 
> It focuses more on the why or when you do something instead of on the
> how (which is usually the easy part once you know you need to do it).
> It also picks one example that's quasi real world (a student
> registration system) and sticks with it through-out the book.

Thanks very much for the tip.  That's the kind of thing 
that was conspicuous by its absence from other replies.

> 
> Matt
> 
> Jonathan Ball <jonball@whitehouse.not> wrote in message news:<31yjc.12023$eZ5.4452@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
> 
>>If anyone in the L.A. area would be willing actually to
>>show me how all this new stuff fits together for an
>>hour or so, I'd be very appreciative.  I'll gladly buy
>>lunch (not a swanky lunch, though; I don't have a
>>contract at the moment.)  I'm in Pasadena.
>>
>>Collapse lines and remove all spaces to form legitimate
>>e-mail address:
>>
>>    jonball  52     earth  link     net
>>                 @               .

0
jonball (677)
4/28/2004 2:42:00 PM
"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message news:<Wzwjc.718$28.670@fe07.usenetserver.com>...
> Jim Thedorf wrote:
> 
> > For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
> > announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
> > announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.
> > 
> 
> Are you gonna leave us all hanging until June?!?  :)  Are they porting 
> OS400 to the PC and only charging a few hundred for it?  That would ROCK.

That would be cool.  I guess that would make my recently acquired 170
unnecessary?  :)

If you remember, there was some rumors (although I think some of them
were untrue) that IBM was porting OS/400 to the Nintendo Gamecube just
for the "fun of it".  It seems that the GC and iSeries (awa pSeries &
xSeries) share the same PowerPC processor.  Better yet, I can get rid
of my 170 and use my kids Game Cube to develop on the iSeries.  Can't
you hear it now?  "Come on dad, we want to play MarioKart!".  "Okay,
just a minute, let me just compile this once more.  Dang-it!  I
touched the memory card and lost my changes!"  :)
0
jtemple (209)
4/28/2004 3:47:31 PM
Jonas Temple wrote:
> "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message news:<Wzwjc.718$28.670@fe07.usenetserver.com>...
> 
>>Jim Thedorf wrote:
>>
>>
>>>For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
>>>announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
>>>announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.
>>>
>>
>>Are you gonna leave us all hanging until June?!?  :)  Are they porting 
>>OS400 to the PC and only charging a few hundred for it?  That would ROCK.
> 
> 
> That would be cool.  I guess that would make my recently acquired 170
> unnecessary?  :)
> 
> If you remember, there was some rumors (although I think some of them
> were untrue) that IBM was porting OS/400 to the Nintendo Gamecube just
> for the "fun of it".

I tried to track that down by writing to the 
publication that first circulated it - I forget now who 
it was - but they replied to me that it was some 
free-lancer who wrote it, and I couldn't get that guy 
to reply.

I'm pretty sure the whole thing was a hoax.  Pretty 
funny, too, in my opinion (but then, I love hoaxes, 
especially when I'm not the target of them.)

> It seems that the GC and iSeries (awa pSeries &
> xSeries) share the same PowerPC processor.  Better yet, I can get rid
> of my 170 and use my kids Game Cube to develop on the iSeries.  Can't
> you hear it now?  "Come on dad, we want to play MarioKart!".  "Okay,
> just a minute, let me just compile this once more.  Dang-it!  I
> touched the memory card and lost my changes!"  :)

0
jonball (677)
4/28/2004 4:02:25 PM
It was the PlayStation.

It was discussed in this newsgroup in Aug, 2003.  Google for subject "OS400
on Playstation?"

There's an article from Aug. 25, 2003 titled "Soltis's OS/400 PlayStation
Joke Takes On Life of Its Own" at:

http://www.iseriesnetwork.com/news/nwn/story.cfm?ID=17144&channel=

in which...

<snip>

"Are researchers at IBM's Rochester Laboratory working on porting OS/400 to
a Sony PlayStation? 'No!' says Frank Soltis, iSeries chief engineer. 'This
PlayStation stuff is nonsense.'"

<snip>

"My comment about OS/400 running on the PlayStation was just a joke," he
says. "Some reporter from Australia took me seriously, and I'm now sorry to
see myself being quoted as having said this. IBM has no intention of
running a server operating system on a game console. We are always looking
at the possibility for new low-end servers. But we have no intention of
doing this."

--Dave


Jonathan Ball wrote:

> Jonas Temple wrote:
>> "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
>> news:<Wzwjc.718$28.670@fe07.usenetserver.com>...
>> 
>>>Jim Thedorf wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>For those that think the AS400 is dead..... wait for the June 10th
>>>>announcement. The iSeries is far from dead. I have just read the
>>>>announcement and it is the most exciting thing from IBM in years.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Are you gonna leave us all hanging until June?!?  :)  Are they porting
>>>OS400 to the PC and only charging a few hundred for it?  That would ROCK.
>> 
>> 
>> That would be cool.  I guess that would make my recently acquired 170
>> unnecessary?  :)
>> 
>> If you remember, there was some rumors (although I think some of them
>> were untrue) that IBM was porting OS/400 to the Nintendo Gamecube just
>> for the "fun of it".
> 
> I tried to track that down by writing to the
> publication that first circulated it - I forget now who
> it was - but they replied to me that it was some
> free-lancer who wrote it, and I couldn't get that guy
> to reply.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the whole thing was a hoax.  Pretty
> funny, too, in my opinion (but then, I love hoaxes,
> especially when I'm not the target of them.)
> 
>> It seems that the GC and iSeries (awa pSeries &
>> xSeries) share the same PowerPC processor.  Better yet, I can get rid
>> of my 170 and use my kids Game Cube to develop on the iSeries.  Can't
>> you hear it now?  "Come on dad, we want to play MarioKart!".  "Okay,
>> just a minute, let me just compile this once more.  Dang-it!  I
>> touched the memory card and lost my changes!"  :)

0
davemck (33)
4/28/2004 4:57:29 PM
Dan Hicks said: "Java is not that complicated, really.  It's much simpler
than C or  PL/I or COBOL.  Sure, it's different from RPG, but then what
wouldn't be."

Why would anyone, thier right mind, develop business applications in PL/1, C
or Cobol these days?   Saying Java is easier than those languages is like
saying riding a bike to work is easier than walking.  I live 21 miles from
work and wouldn't ride a bike OR walk.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/28/2004 5:02:18 PM
Brad,

Why do you think the attendance at the conferences, especially COMMON, are
so low?  Because nobody on the iSeries really cares about Java, Websphere or
Linux.  Yet that's all they preach at COMMON.

COMMON has become a marketing arm of IBM these days.  Soon, if not already,
there will be more IBMers at COMMON than paying attendees!

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.

"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:S%Njc.1235$28.901@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> > Bradley,
> >
> > One has to wonder why, when there are so many EASY to use tools, one
would
> > choose to beat their heads against the wall year after year?
> >
> > Is it because of portability?  Who really cares about portability other
than
> > software houses?  Is any iSeries user going to suddenly decide to move
all
> > of their applications to a Linux server?   (If so, then PHP would be
better
> > to learn than Java!)
> >
> > Is it because IBM says it should be so?  When's the last time IBM was
the
> > leader in development?  When is the last time IBM developed application
> > packages?  Would you follow a company that doesn't have experience doing
> > what you do for a living?
> >
>
> I think you hit the nail on the head here, Chuck.  IBM says so.  I hear
> it all the time when I speak with groups, at conferences, or even
> consult with the hundreds of shops I deal with.
>
> When it all comes down to the reason, it's because IBM says so.  Why
> does IBM say so?  First, they'll make money of the dreaded Websfear.
> Second, once they have you snagged, they yank the line after you realize
> you need a box with 50x the power, and they get another sale on hardware.
>
> Brad
> www.bvstools.com
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/28/2004 5:05:44 PM
Dan Hicks wrote:

> Jonathan Ball wrote:
> 
>> Dan Hicks wrote:
>>
>>> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sam,
>>>>
>>>> I did take classes in Java.  However, I'm always looking for 
>>>> languages that
>>>> my staff would use and be productive with.  All my experiences with 
>>>> Java
>>>> tell me it's slow. On top of that, the average RPG programmer would 
>>>> take a
>>>> tremendous time learning Java.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In many cases Java will execute faster than C code.
>>>
>>> And Java is certainly easier to learn than C.
>>
>>
>>
>> Embarking on the actuarial exam sequence would probably be easier than 
>> getting a Ph.D. in nuclear physics, too, but is still not a feasible 
>> career choice for most of us who are mid-career or later.
> 
> 
> Java is not that complicated, really.  It's much simpler than C or PL/I 
> or COBOL.  Sure, it's different from RPG, but then what wouldn't be.
> 
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> OTOH, it took me a month just to get a simple Java program running.   I
>>>> surmised that the average RPG programmer wouldn't be doing complicated
>>>> things in Java for at least 8 months, if ever.  I know RPG 
>>>> programmers and it's often hard to get them to change.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I suppose it depends on how "simple" you're talking about.  You 
>>> should be able to do a "hello world" example in under 5 minutes, ten 
>>> if you have to keep referring to reference materials.
>>>
>>> But I'll agree that many of the support libraries are hard to use. 
>>> The libraries are Java's big shortcoming but also its big strength -- 
>>> they're often buggy, poorly documented, and far from intuitive, but 
>>> there is an enormous amount of functionality there.
>>> [...]
>>
>>
>>
>> Here we get to the crux of the matter.  I have been hearing for close 
>> to seven years how "easy" Java is to learn.  Back in 1999, I took a 
>> stab at it to try to develop a simple time tracking application for an 
>> insurance TPA, who need to track their associates' time on behalf of 
>> their clients (they are mostly time-and-materials with their clients, 
>> just as I am with mine.)  I got very badly stuck, had no way of 
>> resolving the problems, and had to abandon Java; the application 
>> ultimately was delivered in bad old "green screen" using COBOL (they 
>> since got a little smarter and bought TimeSlips.)
> 
> 
> I think you started with with an application that was much too complicated.

Uh...obviously, in retrospect.  However, because I had 
read repeatedly how easy it was to learn and use Java, 
I thought I'd be able to do it.

Your observation misses the point, though:  EVEN IF I 
knew Java backward and forward, I still wouldn't know 
how to use it productively, if I didn't also know the 
rest of the framework.

> 
>> First of all, Java does not seem to me to be an easy language to 
>> learn, at least to learn well enough to be able to do anything USEFUL 
>> with it.  As a colleague of mine said to the Java instructor at 
>> Learning Tree, "I need to be able to do something in a hospital 
>> patient billing sense, NOT make a lampshade change colors."
>>
>> Every Java book I have looked at admits that making the switch to 
>> object-oriented thinking is difficult.  I have to agree.
> 
> 
> Making the switch to object-oriented isn't intellectually difficult, 
> it's simply disorienting.  You have to learn some new concepts, not just 
> new rules, and discard some "truths" that you are really comfortable with.
> 
>> Even more than that, though, is that the entire Java landscape seems 
>> to go through magnitude 7 and higher shake-ups every 6 months or so.  
>> Back in 1999, in my first attempt, the emphasis seemed to be on 
>> client-server development.  No one is doing that any more.  Along came 
>> Java beans, EJB, JSP, J2EE - in fact, an entire alphabet soup of 
>> ever-morphing gizmos.  As much as anything, it's the rest of the 
>> support environment that makes it difficult to choose how to go.
> 
> 
> You have a valid complaint here.  But you don't have to keep learning 
> the latest buzzwords -- just find a subset that does what you want

Bootstrap problem:  how could I know what it is I want 
if I don't *already* have some idea of how it's used?

> and stick to it.  Of course, picking that subset is difficult, and 
> understanding it (the library of functions) is also difficult.  But once 
> you learn it it won't go away, at least not for a good number of years.
> 
>> For example, what one needs to know to be a *technically* good RPG or 
>> COBOL programmer delivering old-fashioned "green screen" and/or batch 
>> applications has changed very little since the System/38 first appeared:
>>
>> * good knowledge of RPG and/or COBOL
>> * DDS, for both display and printer files
>> * CL, to control the environment
>> * database concepts
> 
> 
> With RPG/3 and earlier you had to learn the "cycle" to comprehend the 
> language.

Not so.  I moved from MVS (370) COBOL to System/38 
COBOL to System/38 RPG III, and I never really learned 
the cycle; just (barely) enough to make sense of 
dogs'-breakfast MAPICS code.  In 1983, when I first 
learned RPG III, *no one* at the place I was working 
was developing new code using the cycle, and no one at 
any of the other System/38 environments I was in until 
the AS/400 was developing using it, either.

> This is a concept that, like object-oriented, is something 
> that you have to bend your mind around, vs just applying rote learning 
> on the subject.
> 
> (Then RPG/4 brought back a lot of procedural stuff, probably 
> disorienting the folks who knew only the cycle.)
> 
>> It may take a while for someone new to programming to acquire real 
>> expertise at all of those, but the basic requirements haven't 
>> changed.  The biggest changes have probably been:
>>
>> * introduction of ILE concepts
>> * growing use of SQL
>>
>> All six of these basic requirements have evolved, but relatively slowly.
>>
>> By contrast, one might go through a couple of Java programming classes 
>> and buy a couple of good Java books, but one is still faced with a 
>> tough question: how do I really USE this stuff to deliver useful 
>> business applications?  (The accounting, order processing and 
>> warehouse staff aren't interested in "Hello, world!")
> 
> 
> I'd say that someone dropped in the middle of SQL wouldn't have the 
> foggiest idea how to use it either, especially if they had no other 
> database experience.  But most of you were introduced to SQL in stages, 
> and only after learning some basic DB concepts, so it didn't seem 
> disorienting.

Learning SQL didn't require learning a whole mess of 
other environment stuff, either.

> 
>> I'm about half-way through "SAMS Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days", and 
>> I still can't answer the basic questions.  What's lacking is a basic 
>> framework like the one I elaborated above for an RPG/COBOL 
>> programmer:  I don't know HTML, Websphere (or equivalent), J2EE (or 
>> even what that really is), JSP, and probably at least half a dozen 
>> other need-to-knows.  I feel like an apprentice mechanic who doesn't 
>> know where anything else is in the garage...and maybe doesn't even 
>> know where the garage *is*.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I tried the "Java in 21 days" book some years back and gave up 
> too.  Now I just learn what I need to know

How do you know what you need to know?  Do you know 
HTML, XML, struts, web services, etc?  If you do, how 
did you determine that you needed to know any of them?

> and ignore the rest. It's 
> much more manageable that way.
> 

0
jonball (677)
4/28/2004 5:18:34 PM
>>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Ackerman <Sorry@NoSpam.com> writes:

Hello,

 Chuck> Because nobody on the iSeries really cares about Java, Websphere
 Chuck> or Linux. Yet that's all they preach at COMMON.

Nobody from the well installed customer base who likes iSeries
robustness and ease of managing.

But, if you want to get new customers, iSeries has to look a little more
sexy. This machine is probably one of the best available in the
datacenter server area but it looks completely outdated compared to
Windows/Linux platforms.

I can't tell here how many customers i've seen moving from iSeries to
Lintel/Wintel platforms or staying away from iSeries just because of its
oldish green screen feeling. (Don't tell me about iSeries Access, this
thing is a real pain, but more and more you have to use it because new
services can be configured only with this interface)

iSeries needs a native windowing system imho (why not x11) with wrappers
for all languages available on this platform.

Regarding java & linux support, maybe you dont like these technologies
but imho, when a customer needs these, why should he add a new machine
when its good old iSeries can do the job ?

Eric Masson

-- 
 Fichtre, j'en ai post� tellement, de tellement d'auteurs, et y
 compris des � moi toute seule, que si je ne le relis pas, je suis dans
 l'incapacit� de m'en souvenir.
 -+- CJ in GNU : Pas le temps de lire "mes" posts alors les votres -+-
0
emss (28)
4/28/2004 6:12:31 PM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> Brad,
> 
> Why do you think the attendance at the conferences, especially COMMON, are
> so low?  Because nobody on the iSeries really cares about Java, Websphere or
> Linux.  Yet that's all they preach at COMMON.
> 
> COMMON has become a marketing arm of IBM these days.  Soon, if not already,
> there will be more IBMers at COMMON than paying attendees!

I wouldn't say "nobody".  But I know what you're saying.  And that's 
only part of it.  COMMON is more of a vendor showcase/vacation than a 
good tech conference.  And what IS techie about it is Java/Websphere 
nonsense that most people go to to fill time, and to say "I took a java 
session."

I spoke at DevCon last year.  There were some Websphere and Java 
sessions (Joe Pluta gave some Java ones, and even if you dont like Java, 
that guy can make it fun!).  I gave eRPG and Dynamic SQL sessions.  They 
went great and I had a lot of positive feedback.  I'll most likely be 
doing them again this coming year.  The time I didn't spend gambling or 
giving sessions, I was talking with a lot of the people there that would 
ask "So, I'm now ready to hear about this eRPG business...  I'm sick of 
Websfear and Java after 2 years of going nowhere."  I explain it to 
them, the tools availble, and how easy it is, and you see their eyes 
light up like "darn.. it was under my nose the whole time!"

DevCon is very techy... I think only one night they have a vendor 
showcase, but more are interested in the free food.  :)


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/29/2004 12:12:13 AM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
 > Dan Hicks said: "Java is not that complicated, really.  It's much
 > simpler than C or  PL/I or COBOL.  Sure, it's different from RPG,
 > but then what wouldn't be."
 >
 > Why would anyone, thier right mind, develop business applications
 > in PL/1, C or Cobol these days?   Saying Java is easier than
 > those languages is like saying riding a bike to work is easier
 > than walking.  I live 21 miles from work and wouldn't ride a bike
 > OR walk.

Well, you've got to develop applications with SOME language.
Certainly a lot can be done anymore with just SQL and similar tools, 
but some jobs demand something more.  And, yes, you can build all 
sorts of things with RPG, but at some point you're effectively 
trying to hammer bolts through steel plates, since all you have is a 
hammer, and you need to connect those plates.

So long as your applications are conventional green-screen order 
entry/query and batch reports, RPG is fine.  But fewer and fewer 
businesses can survive any more without going online, and then RPG 
starts getting pretty clumsey.

It all depends on which part of the elephant you're touching.

-- 
Dan Hicks
You cannot do a kindness too soon, for you never know how soon it
will be too late.  --Ralph Waldo Emerson

0
danhicks (177)
4/29/2004 1:06:52 AM
Jonathan Ball wrote:
> 
> How do you know what you need to know?  Do you know HTML, XML, struts, 
> web services, etc?  If you do, how did you determine that you needed to 
> know any of them?

Yeah, that's the problem in a nutshell, but it's not Java's fault. 
The operating environment of an application becomes (at least) ten 
times "richer" (ie, more complex) when it goes online (and then 
grows from there as more and more connections are established with 
other systems).  This is true no matter what language you're dealing 
with.  Unfortunately, there aren't very good tools to deal with this 
complexity.  (And I'd be the first one to agree that WebSphere is 
one of the tools that isn't very good.)

I suspect that a lot of your complaints about Java are really 
"kill-the-messenger" things, not really related to Java itself or 
its class libraries.

-- 
Dan Hicks
He who would travel happily must travel light.  --Antoine de 
Saint-Exupery

0
danhicks (177)
4/29/2004 1:13:48 AM
I'm throwing in my comments, FWIW.   I programmed in RPG since
card-punch days, forced into Java for 12 months, then went back to
RPG. I have to agree with some of both "sides" here.  For database and
good 'ole calc power, I prefer RPG.  But for screen displays, Java is
easier.  The RPG/DDS interface can be pretty clunky.  I think Java
still has some "growing up" to do (Why is there no "dec" primitive,
for example), and can become very complicated with all the required
classes, methods, and the case-sensitive naming.

One thing I did like, was the IDE environment with its prompting and
outlining.  I was glad to find that the RPG editor can now do that
(although not to the level of Java IDE's yet).




Dan Hicks <danhicks@ieee.org> wrote in message news:<409056CC.2020102@ieee.org>...
> Jonathan Ball wrote:
> > 
> > How do you know what you need to know?  Do you know HTML, XML, struts, 
> > web services, etc?  If you do, how did you determine that you needed to 
> > know any of them?
> 
> Yeah, that's the problem in a nutshell, but it's not Java's fault. 
> The operating environment of an application becomes (at least) ten 
> times "richer" (ie, more complex) when it goes online (and then 
> grows from there as more and more connections are established with 
> other systems).  This is true no matter what language you're dealing 
> with.  Unfortunately, there aren't very good tools to deal with this 
> complexity.  (And I'd be the first one to agree that WebSphere is 
> one of the tools that isn't very good.)
> 
> I suspect that a lot of your complaints about Java are really 
> "kill-the-messenger" things, not really related to Java itself or 
> its class libraries.
0
4/29/2004 11:26:06 AM
Dan Hicks wrote:
> Well, you've got to develop applications with SOME language.
> Certainly a lot can be done anymore with just SQL and similar tools, but 
> some jobs demand something more.  And, yes, you can build all sorts of 
> things with RPG, but at some point you're effectively trying to hammer 
> bolts through steel plates, since all you have is a hammer, and you need 
> to connect those plates.
> 
> So long as your applications are conventional green-screen order 
> entry/query and batch reports, RPG is fine.  But fewer and fewer 
> businesses can survive any more without going online, and then RPG 
> starts getting pretty clumsey.
> 
> It all depends on which part of the elephant you're touching.
> 

I'm so tired of the "hammer" anologies and hearing RPG is clumsey for 
online programming.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

It's the classic "Make them feel like an idiot holding a hammer in a 
room full of leaky pipes and maybe they'll want to use <insert 
Java/Python/Perl/PhP>."

It's almost as bad as comparing worst case RPG programming to best case 
Java programming to prove a point.  Most that don't know both sides well 
enough can't see through that, but I'll call em on it every time.

Most of my clients move from Java to RPG based web solutions and 
couldn't be happier.  Well, I guess it isn't fair to say they moved 
"from Java" since most never get it off the ground after two or more 
years.  :)


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/29/2004 12:44:27 PM
Bradley,

There are only two reasons I go to COMMON.   (And I only go to the fall
COMMON).

1. The Expo.  I'm always looking at products that I can use to improve
productivity.  I can compare many products side by side.  I always have a
specific need when I go to COMMON.  For example, this fall I will be
comparing source change management with the intention of buying.

2. To explore areas of the i5 (aka iSeries) that I think might be useful.
For example, I went last fall with the focus of learning about iSeries
Access for the Web.  I immersed myself in classes, learned how to configure
it and what it does.  When I returned I followed all of the outlined steps
and still couldn't get it running.   I called our I.R. and $2,000 later IAW
was up and running.  And, what a huge disappointment IAW is as it's
slooooow.

I ignore all of the Linux and Websphere classes.   And you know what?  There
are still a ton of other things to see.  In any event, COMMON served it's
purpose for me.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:TKXjc.1385$28.28@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> > Brad,
> >
> > Why do you think the attendance at the conferences, especially COMMON,
are
> > so low?  Because nobody on the iSeries really cares about Java,
Websphere or
> > Linux.  Yet that's all they preach at COMMON.
> >
> > COMMON has become a marketing arm of IBM these days.  Soon, if not
already,
> > there will be more IBMers at COMMON than paying attendees!
>
> I wouldn't say "nobody".  But I know what you're saying.  And that's
> only part of it.  COMMON is more of a vendor showcase/vacation than a
> good tech conference.  And what IS techie about it is Java/Websphere
> nonsense that most people go to to fill time, and to say "I took a java
> session."
>
> I spoke at DevCon last year.  There were some Websphere and Java
> sessions (Joe Pluta gave some Java ones, and even if you dont like Java,
> that guy can make it fun!).  I gave eRPG and Dynamic SQL sessions.  They
> went great and I had a lot of positive feedback.  I'll most likely be
> doing them again this coming year.  The time I didn't spend gambling or
> giving sessions, I was talking with a lot of the people there that would
> ask "So, I'm now ready to hear about this eRPG business...  I'm sick of
> Websfear and Java after 2 years of going nowhere."  I explain it to
> them, the tools availble, and how easy it is, and you see their eyes
> light up like "darn.. it was under my nose the whole time!"
>
> DevCon is very techy... I think only one night they have a vendor
> showcase, but more are interested in the free food.  :)
>
>


0
sorry45 (254)
4/29/2004 2:40:55 PM
Dan said: "Well, you've got to develop applications with SOME language.
Certainly a lot can be done anymore with just SQL and similar tools,  but
some jobs demand something more. "

All of our new development is web based and we do all new development in
BCD's WebSmart.  It's very easy for an RPG programmer to learn.  I know,
I've mentored 5 of my staff RPG programmers in it.  Programmers are VERY
productive and doing very complicated applications that go into production
within weeks of learning it.  I had my first resonably complicated WebSmart
program in production within 2 hours of installing WebSmart.  That program
would have taken me at least 2 days in RPG alone.

In the 18 months of using WebSmart we literally have hundreds of programs
running in WebSmart.  Not applets, but full fledged self contained
applications. The transformation in my programming staff is nothing less
than amazing.  I've never seen anything like it in my 29 years of
management.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/29/2004 2:47:44 PM
Dan said : "The operating environment of an application becomes (at least)
ten  times "richer" (ie, more complex) when it goes online"

I'm a little confused, what complexity are you talking about?  We develop
all of our web apps in Websmart and the basic logic is the same as an online
green screen app.  There are some minor new techniques to learn, such as
passing variables through a form, but programmers that can do green screen
are very adapt at creating web based applications.  I've seen this over and
over with my staff.

I really do think that the tool is the key. Java is the wrong tool for an
RPG programmer to learn.  I'm not saying that Java can't do the job, what
I'm saying is that it's extremely difficult for an RPG programmer to get a
handle on.  And, why should they?  There are much better tools for an
iSeries programmer to use for web development.

Foisting Java upon programmers just because IBM says they should is the
wrong approach.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/29/2004 2:53:44 PM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:

> Foisting Java upon programmers just because IBM says they should is the
> wrong approach.

No one is saying "RPG is dead, you must switch to Java."  (At least 
no one I know of.)  Java's getting all the attention because pretty 
much everyone who wants to know anything about RPG already knows all 
there is to know about it, while knowledge about Java is in its infancy.

I think there's a certain amount of "sibling jealousy" here -- upset 
with all the attention the new baby is getting.  But keep in mind 
that in marketing (which is of course the ultimate issue here) 
sizzle sells.  IBM is going to put the marketing emphasis on those 
things that have the most buzzword power, and RPG ain't it.

-- 
Dan Hicks
We often forgive those who bore us, but we cannot forgive those whom 
we bore.

0
danhicks (177)
4/29/2004 11:41:37 PM
Dan Hicks wrote:

> Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> 
>> Foisting Java upon programmers just because IBM says they should is the
>> wrong approach.
> 
> 
> No one is saying "RPG is dead, you must switch to Java."  (At least no 
> one I know of.)  Java's getting all the attention because pretty much 
> everyone who wants to know anything about RPG already knows all there is 
> to know about it, while knowledge about Java is in its infancy.

They WERE saying that up until 1-2 years ago.   And they said it a LOT. 
  And back then when I would counter those statement suddenly I was 
labeled as a Java-Hater, when that is the furthest from the truth. 
(That's what I get for taking food from their mouths as pundits I 
guess.. LOL!)

And those who think they know everything about RPG are the ones who need 
to focus on something other than subfiles.  I deal with those who "know 
it all" every day (30 years experience on the platform, with RPG, etc.. 
etc..), and if you throw the IFS, ILE (not just RPGIV) or some APIs at 
them, they are suddenly lost.  Or maybe they've read about those 
subjects or taken a class a COMMON on them and can talk "theory", but 
haven't applied it.

Change is hard for anyone, but those that I deal with daily accept these 
types of changes better, quicker, and more easily than making a change 
to Java.

> 
> I think there's a certain amount of "sibling jealousy" here -- upset 
> with all the attention the new baby is getting.  But keep in mind that 
> in marketing (which is of course the ultimate issue here) sizzle sells.  
> IBM is going to put the marketing emphasis on those things that have the 
> most buzzword power, and RPG ain't it.
> 

No, it's not jealousy.  I've been down the Java Road, and I turned 
around before there was no turning back.  Why?  Because it didn't lead 
where it was promised to, and the road suddenly became a 70 degree 
uphill climb while someone threw a 100lb gunnysack on my back.

Others have the same experience, so instead of jealousy, I'd call it 
resentment to false advertising.  But then again, taking the advice from 
those who only write about it and rarely use it (especially in the same 
type of business programming environment), I guess I'm to blame for 
listening as well.

The only reason RPG isn't a big buzz is because IBM doesn't make money 
making it a buzzword.  They make money on Java being a buzzword, so 
they'll continue to push it.  I've said that for years.

But, like I said.  I don't hate Java.  Because of Java and Websphere I 
get more clients every day!  :)

Brad
www.bvstools.com


0
bvstone9721 (130)
4/30/2004 2:59:53 AM
Chuck, as has been pointed out in some post elsewhere in this long 
thread is that most java ends up just being another layer and thus 
performance is hampered.

Web Access is Java built on top of APIs.  And many of those APIs were 
not necessarily developed with it being used to replace user interface 
(green screen).

And while the iSeries treats most things as "objects" it still isn't 
truely object oriented like C++ and Java can be.  So, when you try to 
mate two different worlds (concepts), you end up with performance issues 
and another layer of function to run through, more copying of data, etc. 
  Thus the reason for more "HP" required to run things reasonably fast.

And while many bash the performance of the iSeries compared to other 
platforms, it is always with the comparison of ONE job.  Seldom does 
anyone do a scaling test, and even then, the only scale ONE application. 
  But then I'm mostly "preaching to the choir". :-).

Chuck Ackerman wrote:
> Bradley,
> 
> There are only two reasons I go to COMMON.   (And I only go to the fall
> COMMON).
> 
> 1. The Expo.  I'm always looking at products that I can use to improve
> productivity.  I can compare many products side by side.  I always have a
> specific need when I go to COMMON.  For example, this fall I will be
> comparing source change management with the intention of buying.
> 
> 2. To explore areas of the i5 (aka iSeries) that I think might be useful.
> For example, I went last fall with the focus of learning about iSeries
> Access for the Web.  I immersed myself in classes, learned how to configure
> it and what it does.  When I returned I followed all of the outlined steps
> and still couldn't get it running.   I called our I.R. and $2,000 later IAW
> was up and running.  And, what a huge disappointment IAW is as it's
> slooooow.
> 
> I ignore all of the Linux and Websphere classes.   And you know what?  There
> are still a ton of other things to see.  In any event, COMMON served it's
> purpose for me.
> 
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
> "Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
> news:TKXjc.1385$28.28@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> 
>>Chuck Ackerman wrote:
>>
>>>Brad,
>>>
>>>Why do you think the attendance at the conferences, especially COMMON,
> 
> are
> 
>>>so low?  Because nobody on the iSeries really cares about Java,
> 
> Websphere or
> 
>>>Linux.  Yet that's all they preach at COMMON.
>>>
>>>COMMON has become a marketing arm of IBM these days.  Soon, if not
> 
> already,
> 
>>>there will be more IBMers at COMMON than paying attendees!
>>
>>I wouldn't say "nobody".  But I know what you're saying.  And that's
>>only part of it.  COMMON is more of a vendor showcase/vacation than a
>>good tech conference.  And what IS techie about it is Java/Websphere
>>nonsense that most people go to to fill time, and to say "I took a java
>>session."
>>
>>I spoke at DevCon last year.  There were some Websphere and Java
>>sessions (Joe Pluta gave some Java ones, and even if you dont like Java,
>>that guy can make it fun!).  I gave eRPG and Dynamic SQL sessions.  They
>>went great and I had a lot of positive feedback.  I'll most likely be
>>doing them again this coming year.  The time I didn't spend gambling or
>>giving sessions, I was talking with a lot of the people there that would
>>ask "So, I'm now ready to hear about this eRPG business...  I'm sick of
>>Websfear and Java after 2 years of going nowhere."  I explain it to
>>them, the tools availble, and how easy it is, and you see their eyes
>>light up like "darn.. it was under my nose the whole time!"
>>
>>DevCon is very techy... I think only one night they have a vendor
>>showcase, but more are interested in the free food.  :)
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Rodney A Johnson
Technical Team Lead for AS/400 Spool
Dept GJC
IBM   Rochester, Minnesota

The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, IBM.  All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
0
Rodney
4/30/2004 1:42:05 PM
Dan wrote: "I think there's a certain amount of "sibling jealousy" here -- 
upset  with all the attention the new baby is getting."

I think you've missed the point here, Dan.  There's no sibling rivalry at
all.  You seem to think that it's RPG vs. Java and that's not something that
I've said at all.

I'm a big proponent of web development and, in fact, all new development in
our shop is web based.  But Java isn't the way to go.  In fact, we don't
directly use RPG either.

My argument is that when an RPG programmer learns to do web programming
they're better off putting their learning time into HTML and JavsScript
instead of Java.

Dan said: "But keep in mind  that in marketing (which is of course the
ultimate issue here)  sizzle sells.  IBM is going to put the marketing
emphasis on those  things that have the most buzzword power, and RPG ain't
it."

Dan, where have you been?  What's the number one complaint about IBM in the
midrange?  They don't know how to market.   Now, suddenly we think that they
know how to market Java?  I'm not buying it.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/30/2004 2:33:20 PM
Dan said: "Java's getting all the attention"

In the IBM world, yes, that's true.  But the IBM world is a niche market
these days.

12 years ago OS/2 was getting all of the attention.  I remember many of the
AS/400 shops jumping on the OS/2 bandwagon.  Lots of investment, lots of
convincing of management that OS/2, and not Windows, was the way to go.
Those guys are still trying to scrape the egg off their faces.  They did it
because IBM said so and it was anti-Microsoft.

I believe there's a lot of that in Java today.  Do it because IBM says so
and Microsoft doesn't like it.  It doesn't matter if it's the right tool or
not for their shop, it's politically correct and IBM says so.

Soon we'll see Linux desktops at many IBM midrange shops because IBM says
so.  Too many lemmings.

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/30/2004 2:39:26 PM
Brad said: "The only reason RPG isn't a big buzz is because IBM doesn't make
money making it a buzzword.  They make money on Java being a buzzword, so
they'll continue to push it.  I've said that for years."

Bingo.  Java eats hardware.  IBM sells hardware.  The math is pretty simple,
isn't it?

chuck
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.


0
sorry45 (254)
4/30/2004 2:43:18 PM
Since .Net appeared - 2000 Beta - I was wondering why IBM did not jump in
there too. It's from my point of view ideal next step after Java with it's
bloated framework and proliferation of classes - which will kill usefulness
of the language in the long run. What I like in RPG is efficiency of
language. What I miss - real OO paradigm. What I like in .Net - its
framework, which so far is most comprehensive and logical from what I've
seen. And underlying IL - it seems to be easy to port to iSeries maybe even
as iSeries assembler.

I think IBM people are sometimes too obstinate in the fight with MS and tend
to believe they always know better. They push now Linux and Java based
environments like Websphere. But compared to .Net this is horrible waste of
programmers resources - all this learning curve, overabundance of small and
interrelated objects, layers of scripts, html and underlying classes. IBM
would be much better off by supporting compact and full frameworks on
iSeres - like Linux in separate LPAR or - best of all - as native
environment. Then maybe they would be able to compete really in enterprise
part of development - not to hide in niche. Clients could talk to iSeries
thorugh standard protocols and WebServices. It will be extreme fun to xcopy
code developed on PC to iSeries and run it there - without necessity to use
VRPG and other such monsters. And even with personal computing part it could
be great benefit - imagine graphic games which run on iSeries with
presentation side on clients. And standardization of framework in the long
run will be real benefit for all. I compare Eclipse with for example
SharpDevelop and I wonder - why couple of open source guys can deliver
solution which really works and doesn't eat 400MB for "Hello world". And I
don't get why I have to code several obscure declarations and Java calls to
be able to call RegEx functions or manage collections of objects. Why
multithreading on iSeris is such a nightmare with so many limitations? IBM
made tentative step with ILE introduction, however stopped on the level of
DLL calls in WIndows world. Now it's time to move forward.

Yes, I agree it is "ranting". However I am bit tired from learning to code
same "Hello world" in modern zoo of various programming languages and their
dialects. And I miss real OO RPG extensions.

My 2p
Alex


"Chuck Ackerman" <Sorry@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:yytkc.3513$V97.1938@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
> Dan said: "Java's getting all the attention"
>
> In the IBM world, yes, that's true.  But the IBM world is a niche market
> these days.
>
> 12 years ago OS/2 was getting all of the attention.  I remember many of
the
> AS/400 shops jumping on the OS/2 bandwagon.  Lots of investment, lots of
> convincing of management that OS/2, and not Windows, was the way to go.
> Those guys are still trying to scrape the egg off their faces.  They did
it
> because IBM said so and it was anti-Microsoft.
>
> I believe there's a lot of that in Java today.  Do it because IBM says so
> and Microsoft doesn't like it.  It doesn't matter if it's the right tool
or
> not for their shop, it's politically correct and IBM says so.
>
> Soon we'll see Linux desktops at many IBM midrange shops because IBM says
> so.  Too many lemmings.
>
> chuck
> Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer.
>
>


0
4/30/2004 8:13:47 PM
"SIB-er" <something@is.brewing> wrote in message
news:LPvkc.47478$OU.1140538@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "Java with it's bloated framework and proliferation of classes - which
will kill usefulness
> of the language in the long run. What I like in RPG is efficiency of
> language".
>
> My 2p
> Alex

Bear in mind that the Java/Linux and the Open Source push in general is a
real bonus for hardware manufacturers. This applies particularly to those
like IBM that used to have to provide and support Operating environments
(eg. OS/400) and programming products (eg. RPG) for a range of platforms.
With both Java and Linux environments IBM has gone with a strategy of
pushing this R&D and testing back onto 3rd party programmers who, when you
look into it, are basically developing the code for the "good of the
community" i.e.. for Free.

So the big blue has , in effect, a massive army of free workers developing
their code now. If you look at the remaining internal IBM development it
really is mainly focussed on adapting the various specialty O/S and hardware
platforms to support Java  or Linux and their related products.

Going with the .NET support would require a royalty payment (of some sort)
to a third party (MS) and then a lot of internal IBM paid programming to fit
it to their various O/Ss. I don't think IBM wants to go back to that cost
base again.

RJ.



0
DBDriver (97)
5/1/2004 1:39:08 AM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
 > Brad said: "The only reason RPG isn't a big buzz is because IBM
 > doesn't make money making it a buzzword.  They make money on Java
 > being a buzzword, so they'll continue to push it.  I've said that
 > for years."
 >
 > Bingo.  Java eats hardware.  IBM sells hardware.  The math is
 > pretty simple, isn't it?

This is one misimpression I can correct.  Java requires more storage
than other languages, and it has some startup performance problems, 
but it executes more efficiently than ANY other language on iSeries.

-- 
Dan Hicks
But the fruit that can fall without shaking, / Indeed is too mellow
for me.  --Lady Mary Wortley Montagu

0
danhicks (177)
5/1/2004 3:11:48 AM
Chuck Ackerman wrote:
 > Dan said: "But keep in mind  that in marketing (which is of
 > course the ultimate issue here)  sizzle sells.  IBM is going to
 > put the marketing emphasis on those  things that have the most
 > buzzword power, and RPG ain't it."
 >
 > Dan, where have you been?  What's the number one complaint about
 > IBM in the midrange?  They don't know how to market.   Now,
 > suddenly we think that they know how to market Java?  I'm not
 > buying it.

Hey!!  I said that IBM is going to put marketing emphasis on
buzzwords.  How is that saying that IBM knows how to market 
anything?  In fact, to a large degree it says quite the opposite. 
But, lacking competence, buzzwords must suffice.

-- 
Dan Hicks
My interest is in the future because I am going to spend the rest of
my life there.  --Charles F. Kettering

0
danhicks (177)
5/1/2004 3:14:52 AM
>>>>> "DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:

 DBDriver> Bear in mind that the Java/Linux and the Open Source push in
 DBDriver> general is a real bonus for hardware manufacturers.

I don't think that hardware manufacturers are quite happy of seeing
dinos like a dual ppro 200 acting as a full fledged network server under
a Debian or any *BSD.

This kind of machine can hardly boot any recent windows server, and if
it even succeeds, it won't do anything useful past this point.

So imho, hardware manufacturers don't really have a bonus here.

Most of the time, they refuse to give access to hardware specs, so I
can't imagine they have this kind of politics just because they have
a major interest in Open Source.

 DBDriver> Going with the .NET support would require a royalty payment
 DBDriver> (of some sort) to a third party (MS)

Don't think so :
http://www.go-mono.com

Eric Masson

-- 
 j'ai install� Corel Linux qui met un joli menu de boot avec des nimage
 mais a chque fois je suis oblig� d'appuyer sur "MS-Windows" R�sultat,
 j'ai plus le temps d'aller au toilettes apr�s avoir lanc� mon PC.
 -+- TTTT in GNU - PC : tu peux �tre fier des toilettes, Hue  -+-
0
emss (28)
5/1/2004 1:45:59 PM
Eric Masson wrote:
>>>>>>"DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:
> 
> 
>  DBDriver> Bear in mind that the Java/Linux and the Open Source push in
>  DBDriver> general is a real bonus for hardware manufacturers.
> 
> I don't think that hardware manufacturers are quite happy of seeing
> dinos like a dual ppro 200 acting as a full fledged network server under
> a Debian or any *BSD.
> 

You rarely see that in any type of real world situation with any type of 
load on it though.  I've run a few distros of linux, and yes, they run 
fine on smaller machines when not using a gui interface.  (Mine was run 
on a AMD K-400 with 128.. first Mandrake 6.1 and then Slackware 9.0... 
now nothing since I gave the box away to a friend to do the same thing).

But, they can't handle real world load. Proportionally yes, they do 
handle the load better than a comperable windows machine.


0
bvstone9721 (130)
5/1/2004 7:54:44 PM
"Dan Hicks" <danhicks@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:40931574.30604@ieee.org...
>
> This is one misimpression I can correct.  Java requires more storage
> than other languages, and it has some startup performance problems,
> but it executes more efficiently than ANY other language on iSeries.
>
  Dan, can you elaborate on this last statement?    Does "execute more
efficiently" mean faster?  From a traditional point of view, it's hard to
see how an interpreted language can execute faster than a compiled language.

Thanks,

Sam


0
none9415 (338)
5/1/2004 8:04:02 PM
Saml wrote:
 > "Dan Hicks" <danhicks@ieee.org> wrote in message
 > news:40931574.30604@ieee.org...
 >
 >> This is one misimpression I can correct.  Java requires more
 >> storage than other languages, and it has some startup
 >> performance problems, but it executes more efficiently than ANY
 >> other language on iSeries.
 >>
 >
 > Dan, can you elaborate on this last statement?    Does "execute
 > more efficiently" mean faster?  From a traditional point of view,
 > it's hard to see how an interpreted language can execute faster
 > than a compiled language.

Java isn't interpreted, at least not for very long.  The JIT
compiler compiles each method after it's run for a certain length of 
time, even if you didn't pre-compile with CRTJVAPGM.  The resulting 
generated code is remarkably efficient.

-- 
Dan Hicks
Experience teaches us to be most on our guard to protect liberty
when the government's purpose is beneficent.  Men born to freedom
are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by
evil-minded rulers.  The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in
insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without
understanding.  --Louis Dembitz Brandeis

0
danhicks (177)
5/1/2004 9:50:28 PM
"Eric Masson" <emss@free.fr> wrote in message
news:86n04sl0q0.fsf@t39bsdems.interne.kisoft-services.com...
> >>>>> "DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:
>
>  DBDriver> Bear in mind that the Java/Linux and the Open Source push in
>  DBDriver> general is a real bonus for hardware manufacturers.
>
> I don't think that hardware manufacturers are quite happy of seeing
> dinos like a dual ppro 200 acting as a full fledged network server under
> a Debian or any *BSD.
>
> This kind of machine can hardly boot any recent windows server, and if
> it even succeeds, it won't do anything useful past this point.
>
> So imho, hardware manufacturers don't really have a bonus here.
>
> Most of the time, they refuse to give access to hardware specs, so I
> can't imagine they have this kind of politics just because they have
> a major interest in Open Source.
>
>  DBDriver> Going with the .NET support would require a royalty payment
>  DBDriver> (of some sort) to a third party (MS)
>
> Don't think so :
> http://www.go-mono.com
>
> Eric Masson
>
> -- 
>  j'ai install� Corel Linux qui met un joli menu de boot avec des nimage
>  mais a chque fois je suis oblig� d'appuyer sur "MS-Windows" R�sultat,
>  j'ai plus le temps d'aller au toilettes apr�s avoir lanc� mon PC.
>  -+- TTTT in GNU - PC : tu peux �tre fier des toilettes, Hue  -+-


Thanks Eric. The mono project is a great direction. I would love to know the
IP arrangements between MS and this gang. I have looked into this project a
fair way for the ASP.NET support. They support a greater subset of the .NET
classes and the C# language (I think this is full support - maybe not???).
They seem to use proprietary "Controls" but I couldn't get into this at the
time.

As a whole though, this again just reinforces my example. IBM would
traditionally have marched into the fray here with their own interpretation
of .NET or a competing proprietary product. But what we have now is a "let
someone else develop it" type approach. They will sit back, wait for it to
be done, and then sell H/W by leveraging the fact that it now works with
Mono etc.

Don't get me wrong, I understand this position for IBM and the
manufacturers. But it is also interesting that the world as a whole is now
moving to a single O/S platform. This "new" O/S has been basically built
over concepts from the late 70s - pushing 30 years. The Java language is
built out of the C (I think it was B?) language path. This was BEFORE Unix
as Unix was built from C.


We really haven't been very innovative in the last 30 years have we?


RJ.


0
DBDriver (97)
5/1/2004 11:27:00 PM
"Bradley V. Stone" <bvstone@nospamyahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:ZfTkc.1656$28.1056@fe07.usenetserver.com...
> Eric Masson wrote:
> >>>>>>"DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:
> >
> >
> >  DBDriver> Bear in mind that the Java/Linux and the Open Source push in
> >  DBDriver> general is a real bonus for hardware manufacturers.
> >
> > I don't think that hardware manufacturers are quite happy of seeing
> > dinos like a dual ppro 200 acting as a full fledged network server under
> > a Debian or any *BSD.
> >
>
> You rarely see that in any type of real world situation with any type of
> load on it though.  I've run a few distros of linux, and yes, they run
> fine on smaller machines when not using a gui interface.  (Mine was run
> on a AMD K-400 with 128.. first Mandrake 6.1 and then Slackware 9.0...
> now nothing since I gave the box away to a friend to do the same thing).
>
> But, they can't handle real world load. Proportionally yes, they do
> handle the load better than a comperable windows machine.
>
>

The Linux on PPro etc is fun for home users but no serious direction for
Business users. Most of these users will demand the latest hardware
platforms. I have had several running Linux systems like you have specified
(slight out of date INTEL/AMD processor range) and they do indeed work,
probably faster than the Win equivalents, but they are no speed demons. With
the latest equipment they are very good.

Ultimately though, the point I tried to make wasn't really about the
Intel/AMD end of town but the big metal Iseries and above. This is where I
see companies like IBM as making savings on traditional O/S and Program
language R&D and testing. The "cost" of this is that the well defined
programming environments (eg. very protected - few bugs) of the traditional
IBM languages have been replaced by very open yet less reliable (in terms of
programmer protection eg memory management and less rigit syntax) standard
languages. I think this is why some users feel they are "flying by the seat
of their pants" compared to the traditional languages they were accustomed
to.


RJ.


0
DBDriver (97)
5/1/2004 11:36:24 PM
>>>>> "DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:

 DBDriver> The Linux on PPro etc is fun for home users but no serious
 DBDriver> direction for Business users.

I'm using OpenBSD & Quagga routing suite on boxes like the following :
http://www.soekris.com/net4501.htm
http://www.soekris.com/net4801.htm

These boxes are used in a corporate environment (dsl based wan backup)
with absolutely no performance problem.

I'm a little reluctant to waste a recent 3GHz + box when a 133 MHz
appliance or a outdated pc does the job.

 DBDriver> Ultimately though, the point I tried to make wasn't really
 DBDriver> about the Intel/AMD end of town but the big metal Iseries and
 DBDriver> above. This is where I see companies like IBM as making
 DBDriver> savings on traditional O/S and Program language R&D and
 DBDriver> testing. The "cost" of this is that the well defined
 DBDriver> programming environments (eg. very protected - few bugs) of
 DBDriver> the traditional IBM languages have been replaced by very open
 DBDriver> yet less reliable (in terms of programmer protection eg
 DBDriver> memory management and less rigit syntax) standard languages.
 DBDriver> I think this is why some users feel they are "flying by the
 DBDriver> seat of their pants" compared to the traditional languages
 DBDriver> they were accustomed to.

The real issue is "accustomed to".

Try to make an oldtimer rpg programmer that hardly use rpgIII correctly,
program with the last releases of rpg (IV or Freeformat), and be
prepared to nightmares...

I had to make an xml based interface to a erp in the last months, the
customer wanted a rpg based solution. It ended using the xmltoolkit from
rpg IV, it was a real nightmare to code compared to the same thing in
java.

Now, I won't say new development platforms like Java or Mono/.Net are
completely intuitive (far away from there ;), but once you understand
their purpose and services, they're frameworks that can simplify your
programmer's life.

Eric Masson

-- 
 bof> "mot de passe invalide" ca veut dire quoi?
 Que tu peux s'assoir dans les places r�serv�es des autobus.
 -+- LW in GNU : Pour l'invalide, c'est l'op�ra ou la concorde. -+-
0
emss (28)
5/2/2004 8:49:24 AM
>>>>> "DBDriver" == DBDriver  <DBDriver@iig2.com.au> writes:

 DBDriver> Thanks Eric.

You're welcome ;)

 DBDriver> The mono project is a great direction. I would love to know
 DBDriver> the IP arrangements between MS and this gang. I have looked
 DBDriver> into this project a fair way for the ASP.NET support. They
 DBDriver> support a greater subset of the .NET classes and the C#
 DBDriver> language (I think this is full support - maybe not???). They
 DBDriver> seem to use proprietary "Controls" but I couldn't get into
 DBDriver> this at the time.

I haven't had time to look deeply inside this project atm, it seems that
the only classes still missing are based on win32 api, but work is
underway to implement the whole thing.

 DBDriver> Don't get me wrong, I understand this position for IBM and
 DBDriver> the manufacturers.

Cost reduction, and probably emergence of *real* standards.

 DBDriver> But it is also interesting that the world as a whole is now
 DBDriver> moving to a single O/S platform. This "new" O/S has been
 DBDriver> basically built over concepts from the late 70s - pushing 30
 DBDriver> years.

Just like Soltis' baby ;)

In both cases, one could say that such a long experience/life is a proof
of a fairly good initial design.

 DBDriver> We really haven't been very innovative in the last 30 years
 DBDriver> have we?

I do not have enough knowledge of the whole picture to have a valid
opinion here, it's problably true in some areas while false in others.

Eric Masson

-- 
 Bonjour, J'ai NUMERIS ITOO depuis Novembre 1998, et une nouvelle
 TNRG-P2 depuis d�but F�vrier 1999. J'ai une carte DJINN ITOO.
 -+- JMP In : Guide du Neueu Usenet - Et ton frigo, c'est un quoi ? -+-
0
emss (28)
5/2/2004 9:08:02 AM
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IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Express Edition v1.3.2 Win, IBM Tivoli System Automation v1.2.0 Linux, IBM Tivoli Workload Scheduler Virtualized Data Centers v8.2 [2 CDs], other IBM Tivoli CDs, WEBSPHERE EVERYPLACE MOBILE PORTAL v5.0 - ALTIUM [2 CDs], other IBM WebSphere Business CDs (Windows, Linux) CDs, IBM Integration Server v5.1 [2 CDs], IBM Telecom Toolkit for WebSphere Studio V1.3.5, IBM Frame2000 V5.5, Peoplesoft Pe...

IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Expr
IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Express Edition v1.3.2 Win, IBM Tivoli System Automation v1.2.0 Linux, IBM Tivoli Workload Scheduler Virtualized Data Centers v8.2 [2 CDs], other IBM Tivoli CDs, WEBSPHERE EVERYPLACE MOBILE PORTAL v5.0 - ALTIUM [2 CDs], other IBM WebSphere Business CDs (Windows, Linux) CDs, IBM Integration Server v5.1 [2 CDs], IBM Telecom Toolkit for WebSphere Studio V1.3.5, IBM Frame2000 V5.5, Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 [5 CDs] for DB2 UDB for OS/390, and for DB2 UDB for Unix, Macromedia ColdFusion MX V6.0.1 for IBM WebSphere Application Server, Macromedia ColdFusion MX for J2EE, other IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2 17/Sep/2004 WEBSPHERE BUSINESS INTEGRATION CONNECT ADVANCED v4.2.2 - IBM CD NR 16 297 DW v1.2 DB2 UDB Enterprise Edition V7.2.10a - IBM Tivoli CD NR 16 110 IBM DB2 UDB Enterprise Server Edition v8.2 16 053 Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 - Peoplesoft [5 CDs] 16 029 Sybase:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-456rm4 Microsoft SQL Server:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-457py4 DB2 UDB for OS/390:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-45auo5 Oracle:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-452o1s Informix:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-453x5w DB2 UDB for Unix, NT:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-454yc...

IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Expr
IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Express Edition v1.3.2 Win, IBM Tivoli System Automation v1.2.0 Linux, IBM Tivoli Workload Scheduler Virtualized Data Centers v8.2 [2 CDs], other IBM Tivoli CDs, WEBSPHERE EVERYPLACE MOBILE PORTAL v5.0 - ALTIUM [2 CDs], other IBM WebSphere Business CDs (Windows, Linux) CDs, IBM Integration Server v5.1 [2 CDs], IBM Telecom Toolkit for WebSphere Studio V1.3.5, IBM Frame2000 V5.5, Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 [5 CDs] for DB2 UDB for OS/390, and for DB2 UDB for Unix, Macromedia ColdFusion MX V6.0.1 for IBM WebSphere Application Server, Macromedia ColdFusion MX for J2EE, other IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2 17/Sep/2004 WEBSPHERE BUSINESS INTEGRATION CONNECT ADVANCED v4.2.2 - IBM CD NR 16 297 DW v1.2 DB2 UDB Enterprise Edition V7.2.10a - IBM Tivoli CD NR 16 110 IBM DB2 UDB Enterprise Server Edition v8.2 16 053 Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 - Peoplesoft [5 CDs] 16 029 Sybase:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-456rm4 Microsoft SQL Server:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-457py4 DB2 UDB for OS/390:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-45auo5 Oracle:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-452o1s Informix:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-453x5w DB2 UDB for Unix, NT:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-454yc...

IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Expr
IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Express Edition v1.3.2 Win, IBM Tivoli System Automation v1.2.0 Linux, IBM Tivoli Workload Scheduler Virtualized Data Centers v8.2 [2 CDs], other IBM Tivoli CDs, WEBSPHERE EVERYPLACE MOBILE PORTAL v5.0 - ALTIUM [2 CDs], other IBM WebSphere Business CDs (Windows, Linux) CDs, IBM Integration Server v5.1 [2 CDs], IBM Telecom Toolkit for WebSphere Studio V1.3.5, IBM Frame2000 V5.5, Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 [5 CDs] for DB2 UDB for OS/390, and for DB2 UDB for Unix, Macromedia ColdFusion MX V6.0.1 for IBM WebSphere Application Server, Macromedia ColdFusion MX for J2EE, other IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2 17/Sep/2004 WEBSPHERE BUSINESS INTEGRATION CONNECT ADVANCED v4.2.2 - IBM CD NR 16 297 DW v1.2 DB2 UDB Enterprise Edition V7.2.10a - IBM Tivoli CD NR 16 110 IBM DB2 UDB Enterprise Server Edition v8.2 16 053 Peoplesoft Peopletools v8.45 - Peoplesoft [5 CDs] 16 029 Sybase:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-456rm4 Microsoft SQL Server:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-457py4 DB2 UDB for OS/390:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-45auo5 Oracle:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-452o1s Informix:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-453x5w DB2 UDB for Unix, NT:524953-454f57-4e53594-f55123-454yc...

IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Expr
IBM DB2 Connect Enterprise Edition v8.2, other IBM DB2 (32 bit, 64 bit) (MULTiOS, Windows, Linux, Solaris), IBM iSoft Commerce Suite Server Enterprise v3.2.01, IBM Tivoli Storage Resource Manager Express Edition v1.3.2 Win, IBM Tivoli System Automation v1.2.0 Linux, IBM Tivoli Workload Scheduler Virtualized Data Centers v8.2 [2 CDs], other IBM Tivoli CDs, WEBSPHERE EVERYPLACE MOBILE PORTAL v5.0 - ALTIUM [2 CDs], other IBM WebSphere Business CDs (Windows, Linux) CDs, IBM Integration Server v5.1 [2 CDs], IBM Telecom Toolkit for WebSphere Studio V1.3.5, IBM Frame2000 V5.5, Peoplesoft Pe...

IBM keypad with non-IBM laptop
Hello! I hope someone can shed light on this issue I'm having. I've got an IBM PS/2 numeric keypad which I would like to use with my Canon laptop. Unfortunately, I am unable to get it to be recognized by my Canon, or my generic desktop. Are IBM keyboards/keypads incompatible with non-IBM machines? Or is this keypad missing a driver, or possibly broken? Cheers, Aatheus Is it black with a flip up cover? If so I think it only works on a Thinkpad. I bought a couple and had zero luck using them on anything else. They scan out strange codes that only the Thinkpad re...

IBM Service Partition (IBM 300)
Hi I'm a new boy to the Service Partition found on IBM's... I'm just trying to fix a friends PC... Basically there is a problem with Windows and I am getting a Kernel32 problem..., which knocks the PC over when it loads and stops dead.... Fine, I can sort the software no problem..., once I can get into it... The problem is that I have never come across this Service Partition before and as such I cannot get into the C: drive... i.e. I cannot break into the Win98 start menu to load the PC in safe mode... ctrl - break doesn't work, I can't boot from a DOS disk ...

IBM R50 vs IBM R40 ?
I looked at the IBM website and dont really see the differences (pros/cons) of the IBM R40's and R50's. Is it just different features,styling, or performance? Thanks, Lou ...

Linux install on IBM iSeries...
Hi all, Anyone ever managed to install some other linux than red hat or United linux (beurk, sco friends!) on an IBM iSeries computer? If yes which distro please? It seems that debian should work but i am not really sure... Thanks in advance. Mathieu Bouchonnet ...

IBM.DATA.DB2.iSeries
Hello, I connect from C#.Net to an iSeries. With OleDb I have no problems to do so. But I would prefer to use Ibm.data.DB2.iSeries.dll. When I open the connection I get first the logondialogue and then after entering the correct password I get an ExecutionEngineException. Does anyone have some hint for me? Thank you for your help Hannes Here is the small code: string connString="Data Source=192.168.12.10; "; con=new iDB2Connection(); try { con.ConnectionString=connString; con.Open(); } catch(Exception excpt) { MessageBox.Show(excpt.Message); } ...

Printing PCL from an IBM iSeries.
Hello, I am trying to print a PCL spool file to my Canon ImageRunner C3200. The Text, Lines, Shading, Boxes, and etc all come out perfect. The logo (Image) does not print on my page. I am able to get it to print to my HP 4500, and my IBM Infoprint PRinters. Is there something special about the PCL going to a Canon ImageRunner? Thanks, Jeff P In message <djb7e2$f9j$1@newsfeed.norlight.net>, Jeffrae <jeffrae@alynk.com> writes >Hello, > > I am trying to print a PCL spool file to my Canon ImageRunner C3200. > >The Text, Lines, Shading, Boxes, and etc all come out perfect. The logo >(Image) does not print on my page. I am able to get it to print to my HP >4500, and my IBM Infoprint PRinters. > >Is there something special about the PCL going to a Canon ImageRunner? Can you try downgrading the postscript level it is using. With the driver for my CLC (Fiery XJ) there is a postscript options tab under the advanced button in the print options, you could try fiddling with that. -- Timothy me@privacy.net wrote: > In message <djb7e2$f9j$1@newsfeed.norlight.net>, Jeffrae > <jeffrae@alynk.com> writes > >Hello, > > > > I am trying to print a PCL spool file to my Canon ImageRunner C3200. > > > >The Text, Lines, Shading, Boxes, and etc all come out perfect. The logo > >(Image) does not print on my page. I am able to get it to prin...

Free IBM iSeries Roadshow
SEE OUR TECHNOLOGIES IN ACTION - FREE IBM EVENT You've Heard About It. Now see it Now see it ! This roadshow is designed to provide LIVE DEMONSTRATIONS of over 30 functions and applications within i5/OS, Linux, AIX and Windows - all Running on an iSeries i5. Solutions demos include, but are not limited to: WebFacing, HATS, WebMin for Linux administration, Windows administration, AIX, IBM Workplace, eCommerce, iSeries Access for Web, Portal, etc. Agenda 8:30 am - 9:00 am Power Breakfast and Registration 9:00 am - 9:30 am Power up your business with i5 9:30 am - 12 noon i5 Live in...

IBM iSeries
If HP has taken the time to study it, the iSeries is probably the machine vCSY should be most afraid of HP 3000 refugees seeing. When you consider availability of good applications, the cost of the computer, the RDBMS (DB2 UDB), the compilers (COBOL, JAVA, RPG, C and C++), the batch job processor, the Webserver, the compilers, etc. you know the stuff that we HP 3000 people like, nothing else comes close in price. Then when you look at its ease of use, it leaves everything else in the dust. We ported our migration toolset to use an AIX like enviroment on the iSeries called PASE. We us...

DominoNews: IBM Connect becomes IBM ConnectED
---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- DominoNews - IBM Collaboration Solutions (Lotus software) news IBM Notes and Domino since 2003 September 10, 2014 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------- SPONSORS: Genius Project for Domino: Try it free! Project Management Software for IBM Lotus Notes and Domino http://www.dominonews.com/dnews.nsf/ads/geniusproject AttachZIP: Attachment compression, image optimization and archive tool for = IBM Notes Compress attachments to ZIP format and optimize images. Increase disk space= , network bandwidth and performance. Reduce mailbox / DB sizes. Single prod= uct offering. Notes template based installation. http://www.dominonews.com/dnews.nsf/ads/attachzip ACL Dominator: ACL management and administration reporting security tool fo= r IBM Notes Report, manage, analyze, audit, export, update all Access Control Lists on = an IBM Domino server. Fix security holes, optimize servers, expand nested g= roups, prepare for message migrations. Report on ACLs, database properties,= mailbox preference properties, user activity, DAOS. http://www.dominonews.com/dnews.nsf/ads/acldominator Print Merge Reporter: Mail merge, printing and reporting tool for IBM Notes Mail merge Excel, contacts, barcodes and Notes app data to email or printer= using Notes, iNotes, web. Generate charts and reports to Word, Excel, and = PDF fo...

looking for IBM PPC405EP eaval borad from IBM
Hello, i am looking for a IBM PPC405EP eval board from IBM. If you have one and no longer use it and would like to sell it, i am interested in buying it ASAP. Thanks robert_kw @ yahoo dot com ...

Web resources about - Is IBM killing iSeries? Yes, IBM is the iSeries muderer!!!!! - comp.sys.ibm.as400.misc

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Log in Sign up You are on Twitter Mobile because you are using an old version of Internet Explorer. Learn more here igorvolsky @ igorvolsky Got ...

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 46 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The discussion about Cheat Code Central brings up some points. The author of that article based his writing on premier game sites like GameSpot ...

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