I've played just about every MMORPG that's been released
including some less known ones. I've played anywhere from a month
to a year on each MMORPG I've tried. A few, like Horizons had the
distinction of being deleted from my harddrive two days after
signing on.

"City of Heroes" is brilliant, well implemented, and a lot of
fun. I was never a super hero fan, and I didn't expect CoH to be
any good. Based on the posts here I've given it a try and am very
impressed.

Here's what CoH does that other MMORPGs simply don't do:

* Organic game mechanics:

  There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
  are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
  first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
  doing. It's good that the numbers are hidden and you still get
  the feeling that everything works as expected.

* Intelligent mobs:

  The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
  surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
  revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
  escape while firing off a few volleys along the way. In most
  MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies. In
  CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.

* Missions aren't boring:

  With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
  missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
  of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
  you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
  levels before reaching a boss. If other players get the same
  mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
  another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.

  There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
  unfolding that's not too shabby.

  There are "TaskFORCE" missions which are currently bugged and
  the devs are fixing. I haven't had a chance to see what they're
  about.

* Flight and other amazing feats:

  I don't know of any MMORPG that lets you fly around
  freely. Horizons promised dragons which could fly but when I
  did play Horizons at launch the dragons just walked.

  You can gain powers to fly, hover, and leap ontop of buildings
  which are meaningful for both travel and combat. In fact, I
  found that traveling by jumping from rooftop to rooftop can be
  a good way to run into villians that prefer staying out of
  sight.

* Friendly community:

  Since the entire game is PvE all the thirteen year olds who
  want to PK you are still in SWG or UO. Just about all the
  players I met were friendly and willing to group if they had
  room. I haven't joined a "Super Group" yet which I believe is
  the equivalent of a guild in CoH.

* Good group mechanics:

  With the exception of the "Scrapper" class, which is a balanced
  melee fighter, all the classes in the game work very well in
  groups. Some are meant to be used in groups exclusively like
  the "Controller" class. This doesn't mean the classes cannot
  solo. I think they all can if they're played right.

* A lot to see:

  There are a ton of different combination of powers for your
  characters to try out. I've created some five characters just
  experimenting.

* Decent vendor/item system:

  There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
  points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
  trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
  "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
  use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
  villians.

* A breathing living world:

  Citizens will thank you for saving them. Villians will taunt
  you by name. Criminals will snatch purses, attack innocent
  civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only complaint
  is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to do
  the cleaning up :)

All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes. My only wish
is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and scifi
themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
grind. CoH has finally proven this to me just as I was about to
stop playing MMORPGs for good.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

shadows wrote:
>
[snip] 
> * Organic game mechanics:
> 
>   There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
>   are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
>   first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
>   doing. It's good that the numbers are hidden and you still get
>   the feeling that everything works as expected.

    In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games 
allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and
level). Personally, I don't think this is a good thing, as it decreases 
the ability of a player to customize their character. Still, it is 
just a personal preference thing - and one EQ and other games could
support with specialty servers that just assign ability scores based
on race and class rather than allowing players to change the numbers.

[snip]
>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
>   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
>   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
>   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way.


     These actions are not new to MMORPG AIs. What I find bad is when 
the AI fails - especially when it comes to certain elevations and 
aggroes. There was one instance where none of the mobs agro'ed until
I attacked their boss - a very bad bug, indeed.

> In most MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies. 
> In CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.

     ??? How many times have I heard "KILL THE HEALER" or "KILL THE
CASTER" first when it comes to mobs in other MMORPGs? This is nothing
new. In fact, I think the AI in this game is relatively weak.

> * Missions aren't boring:
> 
>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
>   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
>   levels before reaching a boss.

      I totally disagree here. After about a week of beta, the missions 
got very, very boring. Why? They all amount to this: Go in, kill 
things, and get out. Sure, they can disguise this basic plot in other
ways ("Kill 20 [Insert Gang type here] in [insert area here]" or 
"Save X Hostages" which are guarded by thugs you generally have to 
kill], but 99% of all missions revolve around it. There really aren't
any ongoing epic quests to speak of, and enemies in a specific mission
are generally one of three types.

>  If other players get the same
>   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
>   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.

     AO has been doing this forever; EQ has an expansion for it. 
The game just creates random dungeons and assigns a mission name at
a similar locations the majority of the time.
 
>   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
>   unfolding that's not too shabby.

     What plot? Compared to some of the big quests in EQ, CoH has no
plot at all. 
 
>   There are "TaskFORCE" missions which are currently bugged and
>   the devs are fixing. I haven't had a chance to see what they're
>   about.

    Because they're bugged and we're done in time for release. They
don't count until they're implemented and mostly working. ;)
 
[snip]
>   Since the entire game is PvE all the thirteen year olds who
>   want to PK you are still in SWG or UO. Just about all the
>   players I met were friendly and willing to group if they had
>   room. I haven't joined a "Super Group" yet which I believe is
>   the equivalent of a guild in CoH.

     Yes. Again, though, this could be accomplished in any game with
the use of specialty servers.

[snip]
>   There are a ton of different combination of powers for your
>   characters to try out. I've created some five characters just
>   experimenting.

     This isn't really limited to CoH, though. SWG has a lot more 
options. The options in CoH, though, are very easy for new players
to grasp - and not make their characters unplayable.

> * Decent vendor/item system:
> 
>   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
>   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
>   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
>   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
>   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
>   villians.

     In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've 
improved the game?

>   Citizens will thank you for saving them.

     Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The 
citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made sense
to me.

> Villians will taunt you by name.

     Simple script - other games do it, too. 

> Criminals will snatch purses,

     They don't ever really snatch them, though - they just stand
there tugging on the purse for what seems like forever, waiting for
a hero to come along and try to save the day. More importantly, the
criminals do this IN THE LIGHT OF DAY with DOZENS OF WITNESSES AROUND.
One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
unrealistic it is.

> attack innocent civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only
> complaint is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to do
>   the cleaning up :)

     Yep. :(
 
> All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
> without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.

    I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the 
most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.

> My only wish is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and
> scifi themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
> grind.

     ANY MMORPG currently on the market could do this. How? Specialty
servers. Let's take EQ, for instance: All ability scores (STR, DEX, 
etc..) could be assigned by the game. All special abilities and skills
go up a pre-determined amount with level, and they don't need to 
be "practiced" through use. There's no "phat loot" in the game, just
three basic "weapon blueprints" that have damage adjusted based on 
quality (Cheap, Standard, or Well-Made), level (Level 12 does more 
damage than a level 5), and type (Swords are faster than polearms but
do less damage, etc..) - all of which can be purchased with a number
of different looks and animations (The "Golden Sword of Kal" does
the same damage as "The Stone Blade of Drax" but looks different).
There are no trade skills, and the quest treasures are just weapons with
special animations (a flaming sword, for instance) - everything can
pretty much be purchased in a store. XP gain is also sped up.
There's no PvP, and XP is divided by how much damage each person 
does to a MOB.

    Personally, I think this would be terrible - but a lot of casual
players would like it. Go figure.

I have to respectfully disagree with Clogar's tone here. As a player who has
only experienced SWG and CoH (in other words, a newbie I guess, although
I've been playing other types of games now for 20 years), I have found CoH
to be both polished and addictive. SWG was incredibly tedious after the
first month. The economy was so inflated that it took any new player forever
to be able to afford anything decent. In addition, I found travel to be
expensive and time-consuming even with a speederbike swoop.
CoH is a slick game with very few problems out of the box, either from a
software or server standpoint. I've been kicked twice in the last week, but
that's not bad since I've put hours and hours into the game and was able to
jump right back in. As I move through the game (I'm at level 12), the plot
is beginning to unfold. There IS a storyline here and I'm enjoying it.
I suppose it is a much more accessible MMORPG than others, but I for one
don't want to study mathematics to sit down and play a game on the computer.
The fact that the game is more accessible is a PLUS, not a MINUS in my book.
So, Clogar, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the
game is highly unfair. I believe this game will go down in gaming history as
a shining example of how MMORPG's should be launched.

"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
> shadows wrote:
> >
> [snip]
> > * Organic game mechanics:
> >
> >   There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
> >   are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
> >   first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
> >   doing. It's good that the numbers are hidden and you still get
> >   the feeling that everything works as expected.
>
>     In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games
> allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and
> level). Personally, I don't think this is a good thing, as it decreases
> the ability of a player to customize their character. Still, it is
> just a personal preference thing - and one EQ and other games could
> support with specialty servers that just assign ability scores based
> on race and class rather than allowing players to change the numbers.
>
> [snip]
> >   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
> >   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
> >   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
> >   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way.
>
>
>      These actions are not new to MMORPG AIs. What I find bad is when
> the AI fails - especially when it comes to certain elevations and
> aggroes. There was one instance where none of the mobs agro'ed until
> I attacked their boss - a very bad bug, indeed.
>
> > In most MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies.
> > In CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.
>
>      ??? How many times have I heard "KILL THE HEALER" or "KILL THE
> CASTER" first when it comes to mobs in other MMORPGs? This is nothing
> new. In fact, I think the AI in this game is relatively weak.
>
> > * Missions aren't boring:
> >
> >   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
> >   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
> >   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
> >   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
> >   levels before reaching a boss.
>
>       I totally disagree here. After about a week of beta, the missions
> got very, very boring. Why? They all amount to this: Go in, kill
> things, and get out. Sure, they can disguise this basic plot in other
> ways ("Kill 20 [Insert Gang type here] in [insert area here]" or
> "Save X Hostages" which are guarded by thugs you generally have to
> kill], but 99% of all missions revolve around it. There really aren't
> any ongoing epic quests to speak of, and enemies in a specific mission
> are generally one of three types.
>
> >  If other players get the same
> >   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
> >   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.
>
>      AO has been doing this forever; EQ has an expansion for it.
> The game just creates random dungeons and assigns a mission name at
> a similar locations the majority of the time.
>
> >   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
> >   unfolding that's not too shabby.
>
>      What plot? Compared to some of the big quests in EQ, CoH has no
> plot at all.
>
> >   There are "TaskFORCE" missions which are currently bugged and
> >   the devs are fixing. I haven't had a chance to see what they're
> >   about.
>
>     Because they're bugged and we're done in time for release. They
> don't count until they're implemented and mostly working. ;)
>
> [snip]
> >   Since the entire game is PvE all the thirteen year olds who
> >   want to PK you are still in SWG or UO. Just about all the
> >   players I met were friendly and willing to group if they had
> >   room. I haven't joined a "Super Group" yet which I believe is
> >   the equivalent of a guild in CoH.
>
>      Yes. Again, though, this could be accomplished in any game with
> the use of specialty servers.
>
> [snip]
> >   There are a ton of different combination of powers for your
> >   characters to try out. I've created some five characters just
> >   experimenting.
>
>      This isn't really limited to CoH, though. SWG has a lot more
> options. The options in CoH, though, are very easy for new players
> to grasp - and not make their characters unplayable.
>
> > * Decent vendor/item system:
> >
> >   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
> >   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
> >   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
> >   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
> >   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
> >   villians.
>
>      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
> improved the game?
>
> >   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
>
>      Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
> VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The
> citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made sense
> to me.
>
> > Villians will taunt you by name.
>
>      Simple script - other games do it, too.
>
> > Criminals will snatch purses,
>
>      They don't ever really snatch them, though - they just stand
> there tugging on the purse for what seems like forever, waiting for
> a hero to come along and try to save the day. More importantly, the
> criminals do this IN THE LIGHT OF DAY with DOZENS OF WITNESSES AROUND.
> One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
> unrealistic it is.
>
> > attack innocent civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only
> > complaint is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to do
> >   the cleaning up :)
>
>      Yep. :(
>
> > All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
> > without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.
>
>     I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
> and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the
> most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
> market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
> players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
> best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.
>
> > My only wish is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and
> > scifi themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
> > grind.
>
>      ANY MMORPG currently on the market could do this. How? Specialty
> servers. Let's take EQ, for instance: All ability scores (STR, DEX,
> etc..) could be assigned by the game. All special abilities and skills
> go up a pre-determined amount with level, and they don't need to
> be "practiced" through use. There's no "phat loot" in the game, just
> three basic "weapon blueprints" that have damage adjusted based on
> quality (Cheap, Standard, or Well-Made), level (Level 12 does more
> damage than a level 5), and type (Swords are faster than polearms but
> do less damage, etc..) - all of which can be purchased with a number
> of different looks and animations (The "Golden Sword of Kal" does
> the same damage as "The Stone Blade of Drax" but looks different).
> There are no trade skills, and the quest treasures are just weapons with
> special animations (a flaming sword, for instance) - everything can
> pretty much be purchased in a store. XP gain is also sped up.
> There's no PvP, and XP is divided by how much damage each person
> does to a MOB.
>
>     Personally, I think this would be terrible - but a lot of casual
> players would like it. Go figure.

Thus spake shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>, Wed, 05 May 2004 06:04:29
GMT, Anno Domini:

>I've played just about every MMORPG that's been released
>including some less known ones. I've played anywhere from a month
>to a year on each MMORPG I've tried. A few, like Horizons had the
>distinction of being deleted from my harddrive two days after
>signing on.

<snip>

>All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
>without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes. My only wish
>is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and scifi
>themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
>grind. CoH has finally proven this to me just as I was about to
>stop playing MMORPGs for good.

Ditto. Wot he said! And you can alt-tab w/o fuckin up the graphics or how
the app runs. Pure genius!

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Clogar wrote:
>     I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
> and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the
> most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
> market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
> players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
> best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.
>

This is my suspicion and what's behind all the questions I've been asking.

If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the "shine"
wears off I may bite.

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Thus spake "James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net>, Wed, 05 May 2004
09:33:38 GMT, Anno Domini:

>I have to respectfully disagree with Clogar's tone here. As a player who has
>only experienced SWG and CoH (in other words, a newbie I guess, although
>I've been playing other types of games now for 20 years), I have found CoH
>to be both polished and addictive. SWG was incredibly tedious after the
>first month. The economy was so inflated that it took any new player forever
>to be able to afford anything decent. In addition, I found travel to be
>expensive and time-consuming even with a speederbike swoop.
>CoH is a slick game with very few problems out of the box, either from a
>software or server standpoint. I've been kicked twice in the last week, but
>that's not bad since I've put hours and hours into the game and was able to
>jump right back in. As I move through the game (I'm at level 12), the plot
>is beginning to unfold. There IS a storyline here and I'm enjoying it.
>I suppose it is a much more accessible MMORPG than others, but I for one
>don't want to study mathematics to sit down and play a game on the computer.
>The fact that the game is more accessible is a PLUS, not a MINUS in my book.
>So, Clogar, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the
>game is highly unfair. I believe this game will go down in gaming history as
>a shining example of how MMORPG's should be launched.

I wasn't going to dignify his Evercrackhead fanboyism with a reply James,
but tx for doing it for me! ;-)

(there's always one, & often more, who have to piss on everyone's parade,
just because they have weak bladders...*sigh*)

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Good assessment of SWG.......played for months..read: I'm thick! For all of
it's so called complexities it's no where near as much fun as
CoH.........and that's the bottom line for me.......FUN..
I want complicated I log off and deal with my 3 teen-agers.

Paul
"James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Rx2mc.26486$TD4.3804335@attbi_s01...
> I have to respectfully disagree with Clogar's tone here. As a player who
has
> only experienced SWG and CoH (in other words, a newbie I guess, although
> I've been playing other types of games now for 20 years), I have found CoH
> to be both polished and addictive. SWG was incredibly tedious after the
> first month. The economy was so inflated that it took any new player
forever
> to be able to afford anything decent. In addition, I found travel to be
> expensive and time-consuming even with a speederbike swoop.
> CoH is a slick game with very few problems out of the box, either from a
> software or server standpoint. I've been kicked twice in the last week,
but
> that's not bad since I've put hours and hours into the game and was able
to
> jump right back in. As I move through the game (I'm at level 12), the plot
> is beginning to unfold. There IS a storyline here and I'm enjoying it.
> I suppose it is a much more accessible MMORPG than others, but I for one
> don't want to study mathematics to sit down and play a game on the
computer.
> The fact that the game is more accessible is a PLUS, not a MINUS in my
book.
> So, Clogar, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the
> game is highly unfair. I believe this game will go down in gaming history
as
> a shining example of how MMORPG's should be launched.
>
> "Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
> > shadows wrote:
> > >
> > [snip]
> > > * Organic game mechanics:
> > >
> > >   There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
> > >   are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
> > >   first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
> > >   doing. It's good that the numbers are hidden and you still get
> > >   the feeling that everything works as expected.
> >
> >     In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games
> > allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and
> > level). Personally, I don't think this is a good thing, as it decreases
> > the ability of a player to customize their character. Still, it is
> > just a personal preference thing - and one EQ and other games could
> > support with specialty servers that just assign ability scores based
> > on race and class rather than allowing players to change the numbers.
> >
> > [snip]
> > >   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
> > >   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
> > >   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
> > >   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way.
> >
> >
> >      These actions are not new to MMORPG AIs. What I find bad is when
> > the AI fails - especially when it comes to certain elevations and
> > aggroes. There was one instance where none of the mobs agro'ed until
> > I attacked their boss - a very bad bug, indeed.
> >
> > > In most MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies.
> > > In CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.
> >
> >      ??? How many times have I heard "KILL THE HEALER" or "KILL THE
> > CASTER" first when it comes to mobs in other MMORPGs? This is nothing
> > new. In fact, I think the AI in this game is relatively weak.
> >
> > > * Missions aren't boring:
> > >
> > >   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
> > >   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
> > >   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
> > >   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
> > >   levels before reaching a boss.
> >
> >       I totally disagree here. After about a week of beta, the missions
> > got very, very boring. Why? They all amount to this: Go in, kill
> > things, and get out. Sure, they can disguise this basic plot in other
> > ways ("Kill 20 [Insert Gang type here] in [insert area here]" or
> > "Save X Hostages" which are guarded by thugs you generally have to
> > kill], but 99% of all missions revolve around it. There really aren't
> > any ongoing epic quests to speak of, and enemies in a specific mission
> > are generally one of three types.
> >
> > >  If other players get the same
> > >   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
> > >   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.
> >
> >      AO has been doing this forever; EQ has an expansion for it.
> > The game just creates random dungeons and assigns a mission name at
> > a similar locations the majority of the time.
> >
> > >   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
> > >   unfolding that's not too shabby.
> >
> >      What plot? Compared to some of the big quests in EQ, CoH has no
> > plot at all.
> >
> > >   There are "TaskFORCE" missions which are currently bugged and
> > >   the devs are fixing. I haven't had a chance to see what they're
> > >   about.
> >
> >     Because they're bugged and we're done in time for release. They
> > don't count until they're implemented and mostly working. ;)
> >
> > [snip]
> > >   Since the entire game is PvE all the thirteen year olds who
> > >   want to PK you are still in SWG or UO. Just about all the
> > >   players I met were friendly and willing to group if they had
> > >   room. I haven't joined a "Super Group" yet which I believe is
> > >   the equivalent of a guild in CoH.
> >
> >      Yes. Again, though, this could be accomplished in any game with
> > the use of specialty servers.
> >
> > [snip]
> > >   There are a ton of different combination of powers for your
> > >   characters to try out. I've created some five characters just
> > >   experimenting.
> >
> >      This isn't really limited to CoH, though. SWG has a lot more
> > options. The options in CoH, though, are very easy for new players
> > to grasp - and not make their characters unplayable.
> >
> > > * Decent vendor/item system:
> > >
> > >   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
> > >   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
> > >   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
> > >   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
> > >   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
> > >   villians.
> >
> >      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
> > improved the game?
> >
> > >   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
> >
> >      Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
> > VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The
> > citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made sense
> > to me.
> >
> > > Villians will taunt you by name.
> >
> >      Simple script - other games do it, too.
> >
> > > Criminals will snatch purses,
> >
> >      They don't ever really snatch them, though - they just stand
> > there tugging on the purse for what seems like forever, waiting for
> > a hero to come along and try to save the day. More importantly, the
> > criminals do this IN THE LIGHT OF DAY with DOZENS OF WITNESSES AROUND.
> > One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
> > unrealistic it is.
> >
> > > attack innocent civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only
> > > complaint is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to do
> > >   the cleaning up :)
> >
> >      Yep. :(
> >
> > > All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
> > > without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.
> >
> >     I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
> > and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the
> > most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
> > market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
> > players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
> > best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.
> >
> > > My only wish is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and
> > > scifi themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
> > > grind.
> >
> >      ANY MMORPG currently on the market could do this. How? Specialty
> > servers. Let's take EQ, for instance: All ability scores (STR, DEX,
> > etc..) could be assigned by the game. All special abilities and skills
> > go up a pre-determined amount with level, and they don't need to
> > be "practiced" through use. There's no "phat loot" in the game, just
> > three basic "weapon blueprints" that have damage adjusted based on
> > quality (Cheap, Standard, or Well-Made), level (Level 12 does more
> > damage than a level 5), and type (Swords are faster than polearms but
> > do less damage, etc..) - all of which can be purchased with a number
> > of different looks and animations (The "Golden Sword of Kal" does
> > the same damage as "The Stone Blade of Drax" but looks different).
> > There are no trade skills, and the quest treasures are just weapons with
> > special animations (a flaming sword, for instance) - everything can
> > pretty much be purchased in a store. XP gain is also sped up.
> > There's no PvP, and XP is divided by how much damage each person
> > does to a MOB.
> >
> >     Personally, I think this would be terrible - but a lot of casual
> > players would like it. Go figure.
>
>

"shadows" <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc9h17g.ac.shadows@rage.whitefang.com...

> "City of Heroes" is brilliant, well implemented, and a lot of
> fun.

Yes, it is. Big surprise hit of the season.

> * Intelligent mobs:
>
>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
>   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
>   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
>   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way. In most
>   MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies. In
>   CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.

Agreed 100%. I've been blown away by some of the tactics the AI uses. Just
wait till you start fighting The Tsoo gang. They have Sorcerors who will
make your life HELL. Sorcerors teleport, so when you attack them they will
just teleport away. They also heal, so if you start pounding on one of the
other Tsoo members they will port to you and heal the gang member while
you're fighting him. If you then turn your attention to the Sorceror, he
will port away. The first time I encountered multiple Sorcerors in a battle
(quite common) I was floored to see the Sorcs heal *each* other in battle!

> * Missions aren't boring:
>
>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
>   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
>   levels before reaching a boss. If other players get the same
>   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
>   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.

There are basically two types of experience-generating encounters: indoor
missions and street sweepers. The street sweepers are useful when my
guildmates have logged for the night and I'm not interested in finding a
group. I can just go out and solo whatever level mobs I want in order to
complete my mission. But the indoor missions are cool, that's where the fun
is and I'm amazed that at level 20 I'm still seeing completely new maps that
I've never seen before. I'm so glad they invested in content.

> * Flight and other amazing feats:
>
>   I don't know of any MMORPG that lets you fly around
>   freely.

And you really FLY. It's a gorgeous feeling, smooth, quiet, you just soar
through the air turning cirlces, doing loop-the-loops and generally having a
great time. What a great accomplishment.

> * Good group mechanics:
>
>   With the exception of the "Scrapper" class, which is a balanced
>   melee fighter, all the classes in the game work very well in
>   groups. Some are meant to be used in groups exclusively like
>   the "Controller" class. This doesn't mean the classes cannot
>   solo. I think they all can if they're played right.

I play a level 20 Empathy/Rad Defender (essentially a dedicated healer) and
I can solo just fine. In fact it makes a great diversion from my usual group
hunting.


> * Decent vendor/item system:
>
>   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
>   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
>   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
>   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
>   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
>   villians.

No ninja looters, either. It's nice that I dont have to actually worry about
lootng the corpse to get my share, it will automatically be distributed to
my inventory after the kill.
up :)

> All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
> without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.

/agreed.


-- 
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

James A. Cathcart jcthcrt@comcast.net wrote:
> I have to respectfully disagree with Clogar's tone here. As a player who has
> only experienced SWG and CoH (in other words, a newbie I guess, although
> I've been playing other types of games now for 20 years), I have found CoH
> to be both polished and addictive. 

I think he's coming from a DoaC background. The difference
between CoH and DoaC is the difference between Master of Orion 3
and Galactic Civilizations. MOO3 had a lot of meaningless numbers
and tedious gameplay. Galciv, unlike, MOO3 wrapped the internals
so that everything appeared organic and intuitive. Much in the
same way, CoH takes your average MMORPG and doesn't make the
entire game about numbers. Instead in CoH you spend less time
worrying about numbers and more time enjoying the game.

Anyone who has played Galciv will tell you how different it is to
stop crunching numbers and just PLAY a space 4x strategy
game. CoH is letting you just PLAY a MMORPG :)

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, when I read a post that all
responses are negative like yours, it smells of troll. But, even
risking the feeding of a troll, I'll say a few things.
The AI is indeed smart, it may not be like a human intelligence, but
it is way beyond most of what I've seen.  Villains use their powers,
their inspirations, buff and heal each other, mesmerize your whole
group, make you sleep, stun you, when hurt they run away and not in a
random direction, they go to their friends.  They ambush you at the
exits of missions (not by chance, if the mission consisted on
recovering a painting, the mob outside could yell 'Theres Super Joe! 
get him and recover the painting!' and things like that).
Many of your responses were like 'bah, XXX game did that before'... so
what?  they sucked. This game is freaking fun.  The original poster
was right in all his appreciations, and the game gets even more fun
the more you play.

"James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net> wrote in
news:Rx2mc.26486$TD4.3804335@attbi_s01: 

> The fact that the game is more accessible is a PLUS, not a MINUS in my
> book. So, Clogar, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to
> disparage the game is highly unfair. I believe this game will go down
> in gaming history as a shining example of how MMORPG's should be
> launched. 

Surely Clogar has every right to dis the game if he doesn't like it, just 
as you have every right to sing its praises, neh?

Knight37

Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>shadows wrote:
<snip>

>>   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
>
>     Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
>VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The 
>citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made sense
>to me.

You've never heard of groupies?

>> Criminals will snatch purses,
>
>     They don't ever really snatch them, though - they just stand
>there tugging on the purse for what seems like forever, waiting for
>a hero to come along and try to save the day. More importantly, the
>criminals do this IN THE LIGHT OF DAY with DOZENS OF WITNESSES AROUND.
>One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
>unrealistic it is.

You must live in a real nice place where crimes only happen out of
sight.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

"Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>"shadows" <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnc9h17g.ac.shadows@rage.whitefang.com...
>
>> "City of Heroes" is brilliant, well implemented, and a lot of
>> fun.
>
>Yes, it is. Big surprise hit of the season.
>
>> * Intelligent mobs:
>>
>>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
>>   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
>>   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
>>   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way. In most
>>   MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies. In
>>   CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.
>
>Agreed 100%. I've been blown away by some of the tactics the AI uses. Just
>wait till you start fighting The Tsoo gang. They have Sorcerors who will
>make your life HELL. Sorcerors teleport, so when you attack them they will
>just teleport away. They also heal, so if you start pounding on one of the
>other Tsoo members they will port to you and heal the gang member while
>you're fighting him. If you then turn your attention to the Sorceror, he
>will port away. The first time I encountered multiple Sorcerors in a battle
>(quite common) I was floored to see the Sorcs heal *each* other in battle!

Oh god, diablo2 hierophants.

>> * Missions aren't boring:
>>
>>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
>>   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
>>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
>>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
>>   levels before reaching a boss. If other players get the same
>>   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
>>   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.
>
>There are basically two types of experience-generating encounters: indoor
>missions and street sweepers. The street sweepers are useful when my
>guildmates have logged for the night and I'm not interested in finding a
>group. I can just go out and solo whatever level mobs I want in order to
>complete my mission. But the indoor missions are cool, that's where the fun
>is and I'm amazed that at level 20 I'm still seeing completely new maps that
>I've never seen before. I'm so glad they invested in content.
>
>> * Flight and other amazing feats:
>>
>>   I don't know of any MMORPG that lets you fly around
>>   freely.
>
>And you really FLY. It's a gorgeous feeling, smooth, quiet, you just soar
>through the air turning cirlces, doing loop-the-loops and generally having a
>great time. What a great accomplishment.

I've yet to get this far, but i've seen people flying around and it
looks good.   Well except for that one guy who was scraping up the side
of a wall with his nose apparently - looked painful.

>> * Good group mechanics:
>>
>>   With the exception of the "Scrapper" class, which is a balanced
>>   melee fighter, all the classes in the game work very well in
>>   groups. Some are meant to be used in groups exclusively like
>>   the "Controller" class. This doesn't mean the classes cannot
>>   solo. I think they all can if they're played right.
>
>I play a level 20 Empathy/Rad Defender (essentially a dedicated healer) and
>I can solo just fine. In fact it makes a great diversion from my usual group
>hunting.

I've been considering that particular combination since the dark/dark
concept i'd had got somewhat sidelined due to name and the healing aura
could have saved my ass a few times where twilight grasp missed.

>> * Decent vendor/item system:
>>
>>   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
>>   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
>>   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
>>   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
>>   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
>>   villians.
>
>No ninja looters, either. It's nice that I dont have to actually worry about
>lootng the corpse to get my share, it will automatically be distributed to
>my inventory after the kill.
>up :)

I loved this, especially when I'd been pounding on something and someone
else darted in from no-where to kill it.  I Still got my exp and an
enhancement.
Now that's well done anti-griefer.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Knight37 <knight37m@email.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>"James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net> wrote in
>news:Rx2mc.26486$TD4.3804335@attbi_s01: 
>
>> The fact that the game is more accessible is a PLUS, not a MINUS in my
>> book. So, Clogar, if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to
>> disparage the game is highly unfair. I believe this game will go down
>> in gaming history as a shining example of how MMORPG's should be
>> launched. 
>
>Surely Clogar has every right to dis the game if he doesn't like it, just 
>as you have every right to sing its praises, neh?

Certainly.  
It's just that he seems to be saying "It's not $othergame, so it sucks."

I mean really "it doesn't have stats" is a complaint?
Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94E06F53FC438knight37@130.133.1.4...
> Surely Clogar has every right to dis the game if he doesn't like it, just
> as you have every right to sing its praises, neh?
>
> Knight37

Yes, Knight he has the "right" to dis the game, but no one has the "right"
to be agreed with. I said that what he said was unfair, not that he should
be legally outlawed from saying it.
Why is it, in today's day and age, when someone disagrees with another,
they're accused of stepping on someone's "rights"? Methinks most people in
the world don't know what rights are in the first place, nor do they really
know what their rights are. In America anyway, maybe Constitutional Law
should be mandatory in High School. That way we wouldn't have a bunch of
kids today thinking that having a job and lots of money to buy cool stuff is
a "right", or that I should be able to say whatever I want and never have
anyone disagree with me and offer a rebuttal.

Clogar wrote:
> shadows wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>> * Organic game mechanics:
>>
>>   There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
>>   are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
>>   first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
>>   doing. It's good that the numbers are hidden and you still get
>>   the feeling that everything works as expected.
>
>     In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games
> allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and
> level). Personally, I don't think this is a good thing, as it
> decreases the ability of a player to customize their character.
> Still, it is
> just a personal preference thing - and one EQ and other games could
> support with specialty servers that just assign ability scores based
> on race and class rather than allowing players to change the numbers.

Actually CoH just moves the attributes off the character and on to the
powers. You can still customize your character like any other mmog, in fact
you can customize it even more than in many mmogs. Rather than raising dex
or whatever attribute adds to your to-hit rating, you add +accuracy
enhancements to your powers. But rather than raise them across the board you
can specify which powers need extra accuracy, which need longer range, which
need more dmg, etc....

In short, you've got all the options in any other mmog, it's just presented
a little differently.

>> * Missions aren't boring:
>>
>>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
>>   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
>>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
>>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
>>   levels before reaching a boss.
>
>       I totally disagree here. After about a week of beta, the
> missions got very, very boring. Why? They all amount to this: Go in,
> kill things, and get out. Sure, they can disguise this basic plot in
> other ways ("Kill 20 [Insert Gang type here] in [insert area here]" or
> "Save X Hostages" which are guarded by thugs you generally have to
> kill], but 99% of all missions revolve around it. There really aren't
> any ongoing epic quests to speak of, and enemies in a specific mission
> are generally one of three types.

That explains quests in pretty much every mmog, so CoH is just par for the
course here.


>>   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
>>   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
>>   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
>>   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
>>   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
>>   villians.
>
>      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
> improved the game?

They haven't removed loot, all they've done is change it's form and how it
is collected. You can still get stuff when you kill mobs but you no longer
have to worry about ninja looting or anything like that.

And I'm not sure why everyone likes trade skills in mmogs. It seems to me
that sewing dresses and baking cakes run counter to the idea of being a
hero, regardless of the genre or setting. Grunt work doesn't seem like
entertainment to me, but to each his own :) You can do all kinds of home ec
projects in SWG or ATITD though, CoH is all about being a hero, not a
tailor.

>>   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
>
>      Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
> VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The
> citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made sense
> to me.

A lot of work? You mean they need to change the variable that determines how
close the citizen is to you when he/she says thank you? if they just let
them do it from 20 feet away if your in combat and it won't look so bad;
that's what - roughly 3, maybe 4 minutes of work?

I agree it should be fixed but it's so incredibly minor I have no problems
with them concentrating on more important stuff first.

>> Villians will taunt you by name.
>
>      Simple script - other games do it, too.

But moving the citizen further away from fighting characters is difficult?
:)

>> Criminals will snatch purses,
>
>      They don't ever really snatch them, though - they just stand
> there tugging on the purse for what seems like forever, waiting for
> a hero to come along and try to save the day. More importantly, the

No they don't. If you watch long enough, they'll eventually knock the person
down and run away.

> criminals do this IN THE LIGHT OF DAY with DOZENS OF WITNESSES AROUND.


The premise is a city over-run with crime....not a city over-run with law
where the criminals have to skulk around in the shadows.


> One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
> unrealistic it is.

And EQ is different how? :)

>> attack innocent civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only
>> complaint is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to
>>   do the cleaning up :)
>
>      Yep. :(

Hmm, I've got a snub-nosed pea shooter and a badge. This street gang is led
by a guy that's shooting fire from his eyes and knocking people 30-40 feet
in the air with every blow. He's almost immune to bullets and I just saw him
beat down a hero who threw a freaking car at him .....yea, you just step
back and let me handle it, mr. superhero, we don't need your deadly gamma
radiation powers or your fancy mind control here.

Barney, call up the prayer circle and get my affairs in order, I'm going in!

>> All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
>> without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.
>
>     I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
> and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the
> most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
> market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
> players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
> best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.

There is a difference between "dumbed down" and "streamlined". Personally, I
don't see how the game has been dumbed down at all. They've taken the best
from various examples of the genre and melded it with a strong bakground and
setting.

>> My only wish is that they'd release similar games with fantasy and
>> scifi themes. There's no need for a MMORPG to be a time sucking
>> grind.
>
>      ANY MMORPG currently on the market could do this. How? Specialty
> servers. Let's take EQ, for instance: All ability scores (STR, DEX,
> etc..) could be assigned by the game. All special abilities and skills
> go up a pre-determined amount with level, and they don't need to
> be "practiced" through use. There's no "phat loot" in the game, just
> three basic "weapon blueprints" that have damage adjusted based on
> quality (Cheap, Standard, or Well-Made), level (Level 12 does more
> damage than a level 5), and type (Swords are faster than polearms but
> do less damage, etc..) - all of which can be purchased with a number
> of different looks and animations (The "Golden Sword of Kal" does
> the same damage as "The Stone Blade of Drax" but looks different).
> There are no trade skills, and the quest treasures are just weapons
> with special animations (a flaming sword, for instance) - everything
> can pretty much be purchased in a store. XP gain is also sped up.
> There's no PvP, and XP is divided by how much damage each person
> does to a MOB.
>
>     Personally, I think this would be terrible - but a lot of casual
> players would like it. Go figure.

That's not even close. CoH captured the feel of comic book fights very well.
Even if you changed the character system and the loot (where did you get
that strange idea for loot? it certainly bears no resemblance to how CoH
does things), you'd still be missing the dynamic feel of the battles.

"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...

<snip a very negative assessment>

CoH isn't for everyone, doesn't seem like it was for you. After reading most
of your points, I think I understand your point of view and I can see why
you wouldn't necessarily like it. You cite Star Wars Galaxies and EverQuest
several times in favorable light, which suggests that you're the kind of
player who prefers a much more complex game. Your reference to CoH as a
"dumbed down" MMORPG is more suport of this. You should try Lineage II, I
think you'd like it. ;-)

As for your comments regarding the game's AI, I think you're just flat out
wrong. I've played every major MMOG there is and the AI has ranged from
utterly stupid to mildly non-stupid. This one's AI is in the latter category
(honestly, there aren't many game AI's in general that are worthy of high
praise, certainly not in MMOGs). The key point is that relatively speaking,
CoH's is miles above the norm and as good as any out there. Mobs low on
health will run to get friends, they will heal each other, they buff, and
yes, EverQuest has been doing this for years. If your point is that other
MMOGs have *some* of these same characteristics, that's fine. But here we
are talking about an AI that on release 1.0 is at least as good as one
that's been around for 5 years.

As for the missions, I'm still seeing new maps at level 20 and the missions
have become more complex than simply kiling foozle to get the gem of
brilliance. There are some missions I've been able to stealth through
without kiling anyone, and many missions at my level now that require
disarming bombs, rescuing hostages, destroying drug caches, etc. It's not
JUST about killing mobs although you will have to kill mobs to get to your
objectives. When you choose your missions you often get a choice between
indoor missions and street sweepers so if you're tired of one, try the
other. I dont find the mission objection very compelling. Missions in this
game are FAR more interesting than the AO counterparts. And until you've
played a high level and played out the story arc, it doesn't surprise me
that you haven't seen the underlying plot or epic nature of the linked
together quests. It's there, it's just not something everyone will have
experienced one week after release LOL.

This game has been out one week and people are seeing the very earliest
levels (20's at the most) in a world that currently supports 40 levels and
will support 50 shortly. It takes a LOT longer to go from 20-30 than it did
from 10-20, so I see plenty of adventure ahead. If the content ahead is
anything like the content I've seen thus far, and the stability and polish
remains as impressive throughout, I'll continue to be hugely impressed with
this little gem. I have a moderate wish list of things I'd like to see, but
meanwhile, this is one HELL of a 1.0 release.

Doc Justice
Level 20 Empathy/Radiation Defender of Magic Origin
Citizen of the Justice community
Paragon City

Xocyll Xocyll@kingston.net wrote:

> Certainly.  
> It's just that he seems to be saying "It's not $othergame, so it sucks."
> 
> I mean really "it doesn't have stats" is a complaint?
> Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
> stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.

There are stats. They're called enhancements and powers. You
can't enhance a power all you want. There are slots you allocate
and need to choose how many slots per power.

If you check the forums you'll see this level of spreadsheeting
over enhancements although it's not as bad as say char
development in DoAC.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Holden nothx@ihatespam.com wrote:
> Clogar wrote:

>>       I totally disagree here. After about a week of beta, the
>> missions got very, very boring. Why? They all amount to this: Go in,
>> kill things, and get out. Sure, they can disguise this basic plot in
>> other ways ("Kill 20 [Insert Gang type here] in [insert area here]" or
>> "Save X Hostages" which are guarded by thugs you generally have to
>> kill], but 99% of all missions revolve around it. There really aren't
>> any ongoing epic quests to speak of, and enemies in a specific mission
>> are generally one of three types.
> 
> That explains quests in pretty much every mmog, so CoH is just par for the
> course here.

Actually Colgar is wrong. I just did a quest in the sewers to
beat off some villians and their boss. You can also collect
"bodies" that they stashed away which gives you more exp. It's
not on par. It's a lot better than most of the MMORPGs I've seen.

Later on missions get even more interesting from what I've heard.

I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
from work for a little fun.

>> One of my big problems with CoH is how completely illogical and
>> unrealistic it is.
> 
> And EQ is different how? :)

ROFL. Good answer.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll Xocyll@kingston.net wrote:
>
>> Certainly.  
>> It's just that he seems to be saying "It's not $othergame, so it sucks."
>> 
>> I mean really "it doesn't have stats" is a complaint?
>> Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
>> stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.
>
>There are stats. They're called enhancements and powers. You
>can't enhance a power all you want. There are slots you allocate
>and need to choose how many slots per power.

Oh I know, and I much prefer being able to tweak the powers rather than
putting a point in Dex.

A +5 range enhancement in moonbeam gives it quite the nice range. :)

>If you check the forums you'll see this level of spreadsheeting
>over enhancements although it's not as bad as say char
>development in DoAC.

Haven't really checked the forums much, except trying to find a solution
to the endless parade of "mapserver disconnected" messages.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Wed, 5 May 2004 07:21:22
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Clogar wrote:
>>     I'd reword it, but I'd agree - CoH is very easy for casual gamers
>> and new players to grasp. That's also its problem - CoH is, for the
>> most part, a dumbed-down MMORPG that is far, far behind others on the
>> market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
>> players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the
>> best execution in regards to long-term enjoyment.
>>
>
>This is my suspicion and what's behind all the questions I've been asking.
>
>If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the "shine"
>wears off I may bite.

But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or more
months...

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Thus spake "James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net>, Wed, 05 May 2004
19:00:46 GMT, Anno Domini:

>"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns94E06F53FC438knight37@130.133.1.4...
>> Surely Clogar has every right to dis the game if he doesn't like it, just
>> as you have every right to sing its praises, neh?
>>
>> Knight37
>
>Yes, Knight he has the "right" to dis the game, but no one has the "right"
>to be agreed with. I said that what he said was unfair, not that he should
>be legally outlawed from saying it.
>Why is it, in today's day and age, when someone disagrees with another,
>they're accused of stepping on someone's "rights"? Methinks most people in
>the world don't know what rights are in the first place, nor do they really
>know what their rights are. In America anyway, maybe Constitutional Law
>should be mandatory in High School. That way we wouldn't have a bunch of
>kids today thinking that having a job and lots of money to buy cool stuff is
>a "right", or that I should be able to say whatever I want and never have
>anyone disagree with me and offer a rebuttal.

Hear, hear!

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Thus spake Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>, Wed, 05 May 2004 13:06:11 -0400,
Anno Domini:

>You must live in a real nice place where crimes only happen out of
>sight.
>
>Xocyll

ROFLMAO!

"James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net> wrote in
news:yRamc.36446$0H1.3129771@attbi_s54: 

> "Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns94E06F53FC438knight37@130.133.1.4...
>> Surely Clogar has every right to dis the game if he doesn't like it,
>> just as you have every right to sing its praises, neh?
>>
>> Knight37
> 
> Yes, Knight he has the "right" to dis the game, but no one has the
> "right" to be agreed with. I said that what he said was unfair, not
> that he should be legally outlawed from saying it.
> Why is it, in today's day and age, when someone disagrees with
> another, they're accused of stepping on someone's "rights"? Methinks
> most people in the world don't know what rights are in the first
> place, nor do they really know what their rights are. In America
> anyway, maybe Constitutional Law should be mandatory in High School.
> That way we wouldn't have a bunch of kids today thinking that having a
> job and lots of money to buy cool stuff is a "right", or that I should
> be able to say whatever I want and never have anyone disagree with me
> and offer a rebuttal. 

You said "if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the 
game is highly unfair."

Now call me crazy, but that sounds a whole lot like "you're welcome to 
your opinion, but don't talk bad about my pet game."

I don't think people who have a negative view of COH should be silenced. 
Lets hear the good and the bad.

Knight37

Knight37 knight37m@email.com wrote:

> You said "if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the 
> game is highly unfair."
> 
> Now call me crazy, but that sounds a whole lot like "you're welcome to 
> your opinion, but don't talk bad about my pet game."

I'm more annoyed with the blanket assumption of "you must be an
idiot if you like CoH" which is being spewed by someone who
hasn't played the game much.

Also last I checked Knight37 this is a discussion group for
RPGs. It's nice out. Go for a walk.

> I don't think people who have a negative view of COH should be silenced. 
> Lets hear the good and the bad.

The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
wrong. Factually wrong.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

On Wed, 05 May 2004 21:37:37 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>
wrote:

>Knight37 knight37m@email.com wrote:
>
>> You said "if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the 
>> game is highly unfair."
>> 
>> Now call me crazy, but that sounds a whole lot like "you're welcome to 
>> your opinion, but don't talk bad about my pet game."
>
>I'm more annoyed with the blanket assumption of "you must be an
>idiot if you like CoH" which is being spewed by someone who
>hasn't played the game much.

I would say that both are equally mind-numbing stupid statements...
But then thats just my opinion. :)

>Also last I checked Knight37 this is a discussion group for
>RPGs. It's nice out. Go for a walk.

Now now, no personal attacks please.

>> I don't think people who have a negative view of COH should be silenced. 
>> Lets hear the good and the bad.
>
>The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
>wrong. Factually wrong.

Disclaimer: The following is very generally worded and not aimed at
anybody in particular. As such "you" refers to the general public and
not to shadows, any particular reader or any other specific person.

But even so it is his opinion and you should not try to shut him up
just because you don't like his opinion. Ignore him, discuss with him
or just disagree with him - just don't tell him: "shut up, you don't
have the right to vocally not like this game".

-- 
Regards
   Simon Nejmann

I think it is a great game, I was getting so tired of Planetside and it's
inability to let you advance in any way after like a month or less of
playing.  COH is great.  Right now I can see how the missions might get a
little to similar but that can be easily fixed and will require greater
powers and goodies to make them different which is already coming and
available.   Teaming has been fine,
     But what is best is it is a game you can play for an hour and have fun
or 10 hours and have fun.  It even has a function that  if you have a friend
within like 5 levels of you he can be your sidekick and temporarily be moved
up to one level less than you so you can play together.  I have had onbe
crash for about one hour since it first came out and that is it period!
"Xocyll" <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:s88i90944a3ubdokvqqncsk3apeqcqqrd4@4ax.com...
> "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> looked up from reading the entrails of the
> porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> >"shadows" <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in message
> >news:slrnc9h17g.ac.shadows@rage.whitefang.com...
> >
> >> "City of Heroes" is brilliant, well implemented, and a lot of
> >> fun.
> >
> >Yes, it is. Big surprise hit of the season.
> >
> >> * Intelligent mobs:
> >>
> >>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
> >>   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
> >>   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
> >>   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way. In most
> >>   MMORPGs you find the mob and just wack at it until it dies. In
> >>   CoH you need to stay alert and be prepared for surprises.
> >
> >Agreed 100%. I've been blown away by some of the tactics the AI uses.
Just
> >wait till you start fighting The Tsoo gang. They have Sorcerors who will
> >make your life HELL. Sorcerors teleport, so when you attack them they
will
> >just teleport away. They also heal, so if you start pounding on one of
the
> >other Tsoo members they will port to you and heal the gang member while
> >you're fighting him. If you then turn your attention to the Sorceror, he
> >will port away. The first time I encountered multiple Sorcerors in a
battle
> >(quite common) I was floored to see the Sorcs heal *each* other in
battle!
>
> Oh god, diablo2 hierophants.
>
> >> * Missions aren't boring:
> >>
> >>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
> >>   missions, I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
> >>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
> >>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
> >>   levels before reaching a boss. If other players get the same
> >>   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
> >>   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.
> >
> >There are basically two types of experience-generating encounters: indoor
> >missions and street sweepers. The street sweepers are useful when my
> >guildmates have logged for the night and I'm not interested in finding a
> >group. I can just go out and solo whatever level mobs I want in order to
> >complete my mission. But the indoor missions are cool, that's where the
fun
> >is and I'm amazed that at level 20 I'm still seeing completely new maps
that
> >I've never seen before. I'm so glad they invested in content.
> >
> >> * Flight and other amazing feats:
> >>
> >>   I don't know of any MMORPG that lets you fly around
> >>   freely.
> >
> >And you really FLY. It's a gorgeous feeling, smooth, quiet, you just soar
> >through the air turning cirlces, doing loop-the-loops and generally
having a
> >great time. What a great accomplishment.
>
> I've yet to get this far, but i've seen people flying around and it
> looks good.   Well except for that one guy who was scraping up the side
> of a wall with his nose apparently - looked painful.
>
> >> * Good group mechanics:
> >>
> >>   With the exception of the "Scrapper" class, which is a balanced
> >>   melee fighter, all the classes in the game work very well in
> >>   groups. Some are meant to be used in groups exclusively like
> >>   the "Controller" class. This doesn't mean the classes cannot
> >>   solo. I think they all can if they're played right.
> >
> >I play a level 20 Empathy/Rad Defender (essentially a dedicated healer)
and
> >I can solo just fine. In fact it makes a great diversion from my usual
group
> >hunting.
>
> I've been considering that particular combination since the dark/dark
> concept i'd had got somewhat sidelined due to name and the healing aura
> could have saved my ass a few times where twilight grasp missed.
>
> >> * Decent vendor/item system:
> >>
> >>   There aren't any real items. Loot is received in "influence"
> >>   points and enhancements to your powers. You can trade these to
> >>   trainers and get other enhancements. There are also
> >>   "inspirations" which are temporary powerups you can collect and
> >>   use. You get all of these either by trading or by defeating
> >>   villians.
> >
> >No ninja looters, either. It's nice that I dont have to actually worry
about
> >lootng the corpse to get my share, it will automatically be distributed
to
> >my inventory after the kill.
> >up :)
>
> I loved this, especially when I'd been pounding on something and someone
> else darted in from no-where to kill it.  I Still got my exp and an
> enhancement.
> Now that's well done anti-griefer.
>
> Xocyll
> -- 
> I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
> a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
> Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
> FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

"Knight37" <knight37m@email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94E0A7FED9DD8knight37@130.133.1.4...

> You said "if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay. But to disparage the
> game is highly unfair."
>
> Now call me crazy, but that sounds a whole lot like "you're welcome to
> your opinion, but don't talk bad about my pet game."
>
> I don't think people who have a negative view of COH should be silenced.
> Lets hear the good and the bad.

Who is trying to silence him, LOL? I see nothing more than a discussion
where one person has stated his views and other people are responding with
their views. Why do you characterize this as an attempt at "silencing"?

/boggle

-- 
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

"bunboy" <bunboy@cox.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>I think it is a great game, I was getting so tired of Planetside and it's
>inability to let you advance in any way after like a month or less of
>playing.  COH is great.  Right now I can see how the missions might get a
>little to similar but that can be easily fixed and will require greater
>powers and goodies to make them different which is already coming and
>available.   Teaming has been fine,
>     But what is best is it is a game you can play for an hour and have fun
>or 10 hours and have fun.  It even has a function that  if you have a friend
>within like 5 levels of you he can be your sidekick and temporarily be moved
>up to one level less than you so you can play together.  I have had onbe
>crash for about one hour since it first came out and that is it period!

Lucky you.  I get mapserver disconnects every 5 minutes.  I mean pretty
much _exactly_ 5 minutes after reconnecting.
Can't do my current mission, can't team, and frankly since playing for
an hour is really [playing for 5 minutes, losing mapserver, quitting,
restarting] sessions, it's getting a bit tedious.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Simon Nejmann snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk wrote:

> But even so it is his opinion and you should not try to shut him up
> just because you don't like his opinion. Ignore him, discuss with him
> or just disagree with him - just don't tell him: "shut up, you don't
> have the right to vocally not like this game".

I don't recall ever typing that. Feel free to google for the
archvies of these threads and quote me.

All I'm saying is the type of criticism so far is based on
fantasy and not on any facts.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Xocyll Xocyll@kingston.net wrote:
> "bunboy" <bunboy@cox.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the
> porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> 
>>I think it is a great game, I was getting so tired of Planetside and it's
>>inability to let you advance in any way after like a month or less of
>>playing.  COH is great.  Right now I can see how the missions might get a
>>little to similar but that can be easily fixed and will require greater
>>powers and goodies to make them different which is already coming and
>>available.   Teaming has been fine,
>>     But what is best is it is a game you can play for an hour and have fun
>>or 10 hours and have fun.  It even has a function that  if you have a friend
>>within like 5 levels of you he can be your sidekick and temporarily be moved
>>up to one level less than you so you can play together.  I have had onbe
>>crash for about one hour since it first came out and that is it period!
> 
> Lucky you.  I get mapserver disconnects every 5 minutes.  I mean pretty
> much _exactly_ 5 minutes after reconnecting.
> Can't do my current mission, can't team, and frankly since playing for
> an hour is really [playing for 5 minutes, losing mapserver, quitting,
> restarting] sessions, it's getting a bit tedious.

Try another server. I've only had the map disconnect happen twice.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

shadows wrote:
>
[snip] 
> I'm more annoyed with the blanket assumption of "you must be an
> idiot if you like CoH" which is being spewed by someone who
> hasn't played the game much.

    I was a BETA TESTER for the game - I've played it more than 90% of
the player base has. ;) Assumptions can be bad.

Nostromo wrote:
> 
[snip]
> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
> more months...

     Which is the truly sad thing. MMORPGs should be improving over the
months, not gathering dust and exiting their "Golden Age." ::sigh::

Rod wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if you're trolling or what, when I read a post that all
> responses are negative like yours, it smells of troll.

     Then you didn't read my post very well. ;)

> But, even risking the feeding of a troll, I'll say a few things.
> The AI is indeed smart, it may not be like a human intelligence, but
> it is way beyond most of what I've seen.

   Again: How is this any different from any other MMORPG.

> Villains use their powers, their inspirations, buff and heal each
> other, mesmerize your whole group, make you sleep, stun you,

    Which is done in ALMOST EVERY OTHER MMORPG. Examples: Everquest,
DAoC, Anarchy Online, Shadowbane. The AIs are using SIMPLE SCRIPTS
to cast spells, folks - maybe four lines of code per power. I'll be
impressed when an MMORPG has an AI that tracks down players, snipes 
them, then leads the players into an ambush - that would tend to take
more than a few lines of coding, and it would really impress me.

> when  hurt they run away and not in a random direction, they go to
> their friends.

     Friends who are often too stupid to aggro the attackers in the
beginning.

> They ambush you at the exits of missions (not by chance, if the
> mission consisted on recovering a painting, the mob outside could yell
> 'Theres Super Joe! get him and recover the painting!' and things like
> that).

    They're not really ambushing - you're hitting a trigger when you
touch the painting. It looks something like this:

   When Player takes painting
   Spawn 4 aggros at locations X, Y, and Z.
   Add Catchphrase_str = "There's %n! Get him and recover the painting!"
   
   What's really funny is when they get the catchphrases screwed up
and they're accusing you of doing something YOU HAVEN'T EVEN DONE.  

> Many of your responses were like 'bah, XXX game did that before'... so
> what?  they sucked.

     Great response here. Excellent for discussion. Try this: WHY DID
THEY SUCK? What made that implementation "suck" more than this one?

> This game is freaking fun.

    We disagree. :) I thought it was fun for a short while, but I lost
interest quickly. 

> The original poster was right in all his appreciations, and the game
> gets even more fun the more you play.

    Why? If you're playing THE SAME MISSION OVER AND OVER AGAIN (and
not one has disputed my description of the basic mission), WHY does it
get even more fun the more you play?

Xocyll wrote:
> 
[snip]
> You must live in a real nice place where crimes only happen out of
> sight.

I used to live in New York City - now I live in Cincinnati. I never
saw ANYONE stand around trying to steal a woman's purse for 20 
minutes. I saw a guy kick the shit out of some thief who did a quick
shoulder snatch of a purse, though. :) 

Seriously - if your criminal element stands around taking twenty minutes
to steal a purse in broad daylight, you live in one fucked up city.
That's all there is to it.

Holden wrote:
> 
[snip]
> Actually CoH just moves the attributes off the character and on to the
> powers. You can still customize your character like any other mmog, in
> fact you can customize it even more than in many mmogs. Rather than
> raising dex or whatever attribute adds to your to-hit rating, you add
> +accuracy enhancements to your powers.

     Not exactly the same, though. Ability scores in most games 
determine the nature of who you are - the enhancements in CoH give you
small boosts to your powers, which are really the core of your 
character.

> But rather than raise them across the board you
> can specify which powers need extra accuracy, which need longer range,
> which need more dmg, etc....

   Yes - this is an area of customization I didn't mention.

> In short, you've got all the options in any other mmog, it's just
> presented a little differently.

    I disagree with this on many, many levels - too many to mention
here. Ability scores in most games define a good chunk of your
character - in CoH, enhancements do no such thing. Enhancement 
bonuses (or a lack thereof) won't limit or enhance you like ability
score placement in other games will - they're just sort of icing.

[snip]
> That explains quests in pretty much every mmog, so CoH is just par for
> the course here.

     Not really. In some games, there are tradeskill quests - in 
others, quests where taking one action over another can affect further
quests down the line. There are spying quests, survey quests, diplomatic
quests, etc, etc, etc... - so far, CoH really only has combat quests.

[snip]
> >      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
> > improved the game?
> 
> They haven't removed loot, all they've done is change it's form and
> how it is collected. 

     Loot, for all intents and purposes, has been removed. Most 
enhancements are easy to come by and won't unbalance the game (in CoH).
I don't like how CoH has done this, but I'll say that it did fix a 
lot of problems.

> You can still get stuff when you kill mobs but
> you no longer have to worry about ninja looting or anything like that.

    Some games actually had decent autosplit functions. :)

> And I'm not sure why everyone likes trade skills in mmogs. 

     I don't know why you like some of the things in CoH that you do -
it is simply enough that there is a large audience of MMORPG players 
that do. ;)

[snip]
> You can do all kinds of home ec projects in SWG or ATITD though, CoH
> is all about being a hero, not a tailor.

    Forge, Iron Man, Microchip, and (in many instances) Batman - all
"tailors" that were superheroes (granted, Batman had an extremely toned
body, but he also had a lot of gadgets). Tradeskills could have 
worked VERY well in CoH.

[snip] 
> >>   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
> >
> >      Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
> > VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The
> > citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made
> > sense to me.
> 
> A lot of work? You mean they need to change the variable that
> determines how close the citizen is to you when he/she says thank you?
> if they just let them do it from 20 feet away if your in combat and 
> it won't look so bad; that's what - roughly 3, maybe 4 minutes of
> work?

A bit more than that - but what you've said would be a decent quick
fix to the more annoying aspect of it.

> I agree it should be fixed but it's so incredibly minor I have no
> problems with them concentrating on more important stuff first.

   That was more in response to a comment in the earlier post - there
are a lot of other things I'd like to see implemented first.


> And EQ is different how? :)

     There was a time when EQ was more realistic. Long, long ago... ;)

[snip]
> Hmm, I've got a snub-nosed pea shooter and a badge. This street gang
> is led by a guy that's shooting fire from his eyes and knocking 
> people 30-40 feet in the air with every blow. He's almost immune to
> bullets and I just saw him beat down a hero who threw a freaking car
> at him .....yea, you just step back and let me handle it, mr.
> superhero, we don't need your deadly gamma radiation powers or your
> fancy mind control here.

     Agree and disagree. There are PLENTY of low-level villains police
could help with - you know, ESPECIALLY when low-level heroes are 
getting the snot kicked out of them and they need a hand. Not every
purse-snatcher is shooting fire from his eyes, man! ;)

     Still, this goes to my comment about NPC logic - it isn't as above
average as some people are claiming. Really above-average logic would
have the NPC police sending out distress calls when they run into some-
thing REALLY ugly that heroes could respond to. Maybe they could call
in military-grade units if heroes were in real trouble - all automated,
of course. But that's not here nor there right now - there are other 
things that could be added first.


> There is a difference between "dumbed down" and "streamlined".
> Personally, I don't see how the game has been dumbed down at all.
> They've taken the best from various examples of the genre and melded
> it with a strong bakground and setting.

    I'm not going to disagree with this - we're basicly rewording
similar statements (each with a slight slant one way or the other).

[snip]
> That's not even close. CoH captured the feel of comic book fights very
> well.

    I disagree - in some ways, it captures it. Still, it never really
feels like the X-Men or Batman to me - there are just too many
elements missing. The epic nature just isn't in the game yet - at 
least for me.

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in

> Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
> stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.

Then you haven't read many comics.

Powerups are a staple of superheroics in comics. Stronger? The Thing 
started off much weaker than he is now. Faster? Wally West at one point 
went at the speed of sound, now the speed of light. Smarter? Bart Allen 
just underwent a fairly massive increase in book-learning.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
> from work for a little fun.

I don't understand this statement at all.

I've been playing the game 16h/day, all day, no life whatsoever, since 
Monday, and I've yet to have a single character get to 10th level.

This is *so* not a game for someone who just wants to have 'a little fun'. 
This game requires you to put in some serious time to develop your 
characters. I've been working hard for two days on a single character, some 
20+ hours on the character, and I'm only at 9th level so far.

Somebody who only has 1-3 hours after work, is going to be pretty damn 
disappointed with what they get per evening.

CoH definitely requires playing it as "no life" -- and even then you get 
anywhere slowly, once you're out of the more rational and satisfactory 
advancement speed of levels 1-5 or thereabouts.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Nostromo wrote:
>> If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>> "shine" wears off I may bite.
>
> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
> more months...

If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
worth playing at all.

-- 
chainbreaker

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> looked up from reading the entrails
of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll Xocyll@kingston.net wrote:
>> "bunboy" <bunboy@cox.net> looked up from reading the entrails of the
>> porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>> 
>>>I think it is a great game, I was getting so tired of Planetside and it's
>>>inability to let you advance in any way after like a month or less of
>>>playing.  COH is great.  Right now I can see how the missions might get a
>>>little to similar but that can be easily fixed and will require greater
>>>powers and goodies to make them different which is already coming and
>>>available.   Teaming has been fine,
>>>     But what is best is it is a game you can play for an hour and have fun
>>>or 10 hours and have fun.  It even has a function that  if you have a friend
>>>within like 5 levels of you he can be your sidekick and temporarily be moved
>>>up to one level less than you so you can play together.  I have had onbe
>>>crash for about one hour since it first came out and that is it period!
>> 
>> Lucky you.  I get mapserver disconnects every 5 minutes.  I mean pretty
>> much _exactly_ 5 minutes after reconnecting.
>> Can't do my current mission, can't team, and frankly since playing for
>> an hour is really [playing for 5 minutes, losing mapserver, quitting,
>> restarting] sessions, it's getting a bit tedious.
>
>Try another server. I've only had the map disconnect happen twice.

I've tried Virtue, Protector, Infinity.
The behavior is _exactly_ the same on all three, regardless of how
loaded the server is.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
>
>> Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
>> stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.
>
>Then you haven't read many comics.

Actually i've read a hell of a lot of comics.
Just not very recently.

>Powerups are a staple of superheroics in comics. Stronger? The Thing 
>started off much weaker than he is now. Faster? Wally West at one point 
>went at the speed of sound, now the speed of light. Smarter? Bart Allen 
>just underwent a fairly massive increase in book-learning.

The only hero I can recall who became more powerful was Phoenix, and
that wasn't exactly her getting stronger so much as her getting
possessed by an insanely powerful critter.

Maybe there's a new trend in upgraded heros, but they didn't used to.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in 

> * Organic game mechanics:
> 
>   There's no number crunching of spreadsheeting. The mechanics
>   are explained in a few lines at a time and by the end of your
>   first hour you'll get the basics down and know what you're
>   doing.


I submit that this, while advantageous to some players, has a 
disadvantageous side as well: you don't know/see when something has an 
effect. For one, I honestly can't tell how much difference range or 
recharge time enhancements have. It's like, okay, I put some enhancements 
there, but I can't see any difference.

Another poster mentioned how he felt his scrapper was being hit way too 
much considering all the defensive stuff the character had. In something 
like D&D games, you can just look at the die rolls and see, "oh, the game 
cheats and weights its dice". Here, you just end up feeling like you have 
no idea how anything is calculated, and resultantly, having no idea what 
effect, if any at all, your enhancements or buffs had.

> * Intelligent mobs:
> 
>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
>   surprises you. I've had everything from undead type villians
>   revive their fallen comrades to street punks run up a fire
>   escape while firing off a few volleys along the way.

Except these very rapidly cease to become surprises, and it becomes 
evident that they're rigid scripting instead, that you learn to 
anticipate and prepare for. In other words, it's not *intelligence*, the 
sign of which is adapting. Even after two, three days of play I can 
already tell that the Morticians go for dead Cadavers and rez them if you 
don't interrupt them with attacks. I can tell that Embalmed Cadavers and 
Life Mages have to be attacked quickly to kill them before they detonate. 
They're routine maneuvers and you very quickly learn to anticipate them 
and counteract them.

Just a few hours ago I was doing an office building mission and there was 
a fairly big space, with two groups of three Skulls each. I first went to 
the other side of the room and attacked the group there, disposed of 
them, then waited -- even *resting* back to full health at that side of 
the room -- before crossing to the other side of the room and attacking 
the other three. *In the same space*, the other three Skulls didn't 
notice a huge massive firefight, gunfire, energy blasts slung this way 
and that.

Not to mention that, every single foe falls the exact same way. Start off 
with Ice Blast, it retaliates with its own ranged weapon, then Ice Bolt, 
it runs to you, then Frost Breath and it has time to strike you once, and 
then you finish it off with the Chillblain. Works the same, *every damn 
time*, whether it's a Skull, or a Sprocket, or a Thorn Wielder, or a 
Cadaver. Lieutenants like Morticians or Fallen Gunners require sustained 
longer-time fire, but all minions go down with the exact same amount of 
firing. As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any random amount 
to the damage -- the only random factor is whether you hit or miss. So, 
if you hit pretty much every time, it always takes the same amount of 
shots to take down a foe. And all foes seem to be more or less 
interchangeable. Sprockets aren't easier than Blood Brother thugs or 
Cadavers, they're all pretty much just interchangeable minions with 
different looks. They could've easily had it so that fire is more 
effective against Vazhilos, or cold against Hellions, or electricity 
against Clockwork, but *if* they did something like this, the degree is 
so slight as to be unnoticeable. The only time you notice a difference in 
foes is whether they're Minions, Lts or Bosses. The faction doesn't 
matter, nor does the specific type of thug.

The one exception being baddies that are so far below your level that 
they're gray. Beating up on grays is the only time at which I feel like 
my powers really *do* something other than slowly whittle away at the 
health bar. Those can usually be taken down in one shot.

> * Missions aren't boring:
> 
>   With the exception of the canned "kill X many Foobar Villians"
>   missions

Which is, basically, what all missions are. Except occasionally you get a 
flavor addition thrown in, so that you have to click on <insert glowing 
thing> whenever you've cleared a room of enemies. <Glowing thing> may be 
a drug manufacturing device to demolish, a bomb to disarm, or a bookshelf 
to inspect, or a jewel to retrieve, but doesn't really matter, it's just 
a glowing McGuffin to click on, you don't even have to know what it is in 
order to complete the mission.

All missions I've ran into so far fall into two categories:
* Kill <number> of <bad guy category> [optional addition: in <city 
section>]. As in, 'Kill 10 Skulls in Skyway City', for example.
* Go to a door on city map, go inside, kill everything inside. Click on 
all glowing things if any.

That's...well, *all*.

I suppose I should be grateful there aren't any significant amount of 
fetch and carry missions a la Baldur's Gate. Then again, I suppose you 
could count the latter option as fetch and carry, only with the corollary 
of having to kill all previous possessors.

Honestly, the best thing about missions is, in my opinion, the beautiful 
maps many of them have. Cave maps are gorgeous and really make you feel 
like you are in a cave. Magma veins, glowing crystals, pools of water -- 
and the cave maps really undulate like real caves, they aren't silly D&D 
caves that go straight ahead with neatly-cut floors, walls and ceilings. 
They feel real.

The missions are also fairly well balanced, IMO. Although the outdoors 
'Seek and Destroy' missions are a little troublesome at times, 
particularly due to the 'Seek' part. It's going to be a total pain for a 
5th level character (who can't get to Perez Park) to hunt down Circle of 
Thorns in King's Row without the ability to get across rooftops 
conveniently. Somewhat of an oversight from the developers. It would've 
been good to have *some* kind of OOC help in locating the quarry, 
although doubtless some players take pleasure in exactly the Seeking 
part.

>   I found the missions you get to be interesting. A lot
>   of missions are instanced. You get sent to a warehouse where
>   you, and your group, if you have a group, fight through several
>   levels before reaching a boss. If other players get the same
>   mission they too go to the warehouse or building and wind up in
>   another instance of the mission. This eliminates camping.

The instanced missions *is* a very good thing. Very good thing indeed. 
I've no idea how that translates to finding them *interesting*, though. 
Fighting through several levels before reaching a boss sounds quite 
routine for a computer game, actually. Even Donkey Kong and Mario 
Brothers had that twenty years ago. I remember playing those on a small 
grayscale LCD handheld. It's kind of sad that, while we've progressed so 
far in graphics and audio, the gameplay is essentially almost the same as 
20 years ago.

>   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
>   unfolding that's not too shabby.

I can't believe you're seriously saying this. You must have a different 
copy of the game than me.

Although admittedly, some have said that the plot begins unfolding at 10+ 
levels, so maybe I will have a different perspective on that when I get 
that high.

> * Flight and other amazing feats:

That is amazing. Bar none, this is the best thing in CoH. The flying is 
*amazing*. I've only gotten as far as hovering, but going to the top of 
the city's highest building and just looking downwards at the edge is 
*amazing*. Then suicide-jumping, only to fall 20 stories, then hit the 
button for Hover, and stop in midair half a dozen stories above the 
street. Freedom Force had decent flying too, but it didn't allow you to 
activate flying while you were falling, or knockbacked through the air.

> * Good group mechanics:
> 
>   With the exception of the "Scrapper" class, which is a balanced
>   melee fighter

Balanced against what? Itself? I agree with the poster who noted that 
Scrapper certainly isn't balanced against other classes.

I played a Scrapper at first, and in the time it took to beat down a 
single villain, a Blaster had area-effect blasted half a dozen to bits. 
It's kind of like the D&D fighter vs mage dilemma, except that in CoH, 
the Blasters rule from the very beginning, as opposed to D&D where the 
fighters rule the low levels and mages the high levels.

> * A lot to see:
> 
>   There are a ton of different combination of powers for your
>   characters to try out. I've created some five characters just
>   experimenting.

I've found this aspect quite disappointing, actually. When I hit 8th 
level, I honestly didn't know what powers to get, because everything felt 
so insignificant. "Gee, what kind of a blasting power should I take this 
level? Should I take the one that's exactly the same as my previous one 
but does a little more damage? Or should I take the one that's exactly 
the same as my previous one but has a chance to slow the enemy?" Effects 
which, as noted way above in this post, are nearly invisible to the 
player. Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor 
tweaking. There's a *lot* of duplication and redundancy around, with 
different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny 
changes.

And something occurs to me. I can't believe they didn't put an Underwater  
powerset into this game. They *have* all the mechanics! They could've 
implemented Underwater stuff *extremely* easily. They have good looking 
water, they already have swimming mechanics and animations, and they have 
Flying -- underwater swimming could've operated exactly the same as 
Flying, except only underwater. It's been a *LONG* while since I've seen 
as huge a wasted opportunity.

How can you have a superhero game that doesn't let you play the 
Aquaman/Namor archetype??

Okay, so I wouldn't have made a big deal out of it otherwise, but it's 
just very frustrating when it seems like they've already got all the 
necessary components to do it very easily.

> * Decent vendor/item system:

I've found the item system pretty much pointless. In fact, if I start 
another character, I might well give it a whirl to see what happens if I 
don't use inspirations/enhancements (all the 'items' in the game) at all, 
to see if there's any noticeable change. I suspect there might be a minor 
niggling feel that the character is underperforming, but other than that, 
I foresee the exact same experience.

> * A breathing living world:
> 
>   Citizens will thank you for saving them. Villians will taunt
>   you by name. Criminals will snatch purses, attack innocent
>   civilians, and perform other diabolical acts. My only complaint
>   is that cops run away from these crimes while you have to do
>   the cleaning up :)

I have to admit I agree with the poster who found it laughable that the 
villains will stand there perpetrating their crime for minutes on end. 
Someone said that the villains *do* eventually complete their task and 
leave, but in my prolonged observations, I haven't come across such a 
case yet. However it should be noted that it'd be MUCH MUCH more 
difficult to find baddies to kill if the mobs didn't stay in place 
waiting for a hero to come along.

It's also fairly amusing how many so-called 'heroes' just walk up to a 
bunch of Blood Brothers standing at a street corner attacking no one, and 
start blasting away at them.

To me, a 'living breathing world' means a world where things change. In 
CoH, things most definitely do not change. You can solve however many 
missions, none of it matters one whit. Your contacts don't move away or 
get assassinated, the trainers and vendors and mission givers always 
stand at the same exact spot 24/7, no matter how many baddies in a given 
area you kill off, they all respawn within a day and everything goes back 
to business as usual -- everything in CoH, for me, appears to point to a 
static world, not a dynamic one. Everything stays exactly the same, 
except for your levelling grind. No matter people are so obsessed with 
the levelling -- because it's the only interesting thing in the game 
world. Everything else is less than one-dimensional.

> All in all I recommend CoH as a fun game casual players can enjoy
> without feeling dwarfed by people who have no lifes.

It's true that in CoH you really don't run into higher-level characters 
in almost any regular interaction. 95% of the time, you end up fighting 
baddies, and teaming up with people, who are your level. So in that 
regard, you don't get dwarfed by the more committed people, because you 
very rarely even see them. (My own experiences are limited to 
occasionally seeing a high-level character fly by in the sky.)

However it should be noted that level really doesn't matter in CoH. Your 
hitpoints scale to how much damage the opponents at your level do, and 
their hitpoints increase similarly while your damage output does. In 
short, while the numbers may increase in the background (and they stay 
largely hidden so you might not even notice this) you end up spending 
just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1 as you do at 
level 9. That's kind of sad.

It's also very disappointing that thug types don't map to their danger 
levels. I would've found it far more interesting if I could look at a 
group of baddies, and judge by the baddie types there which ones are the 
toughest. For example, the 'Thug with bat' variety comes in level 1 
dangerous, level 2, l3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and so on. Similarly, thug with gun 
comes in all the levels. As opposed to, say, the thugs with bats being 
all level 1 throughout the game, and when you graduate to level 2, you'd 
start fighting thugs with meat cleavers instead. I think the way CoH does 
it, you're stuck fighting the same baddies all over again, at every 
level, and that's one of the big reasons why it feels like there's no 
change at all.

Despite all my griping though, I've found it a worthy expenditure of my 
fifty bucks. I don't regret spending the cash, although I do feel the 
game could've been a LOT better. I also doubt I'll be playing it longer 
than the first month; the only thing I'm really excited about in the game 
is looking forward to the flying, and once I've gotten one character to 
level 14, I don't anticipate there being anything else to look forward 
to, or to justify suffering the tedious minion-killing for hours and 
hours on end. If there was a compelling plot, it might hook me, but I 
guess that's why this is what these MMORPGs are about. Tedious kill-kill-
kill leveling grind, as opposed to actual CRPGs which make you feel good 
and epic when you progress in a plot and save the world.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>:

>Nostromo wrote:
>>> If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>> "shine" wears off I may bite.
>>
>> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>> more months...
>
>If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
>worth playing at all.

This game gives the distinct impression of big initial flash, no
staying power whatsoever.

Maybe a good marketting decision. They might know they don't really
have the legs, so they release at the perfect time when a large
population chunk is willing to try something new, bored of the old
games and disappointed with the new... but will also be free to dump
it when WoW comes out in a few months and EQ2 sometime late in the
year or early next, rather than feeling like they've committed to it
like people do with deeper, gutsier mmorpgs.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:

>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>from work for a little fun.

No offense but you reek of fanboy.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in news:409990BF.6D7D@nospam.com:

>      Still, this goes to my comment about NPC logic - it isn't as above
> average as some people are claiming. Really above-average logic would
> have the NPC police sending out distress calls when they run into some-
> thing REALLY ugly that heroes could respond to. Maybe they could call
> in military-grade units if heroes were in real trouble - all automated,
> of course.

You know, that would be *REALLY* cool. If the grid actually was dynamic, 
and police from the other side of the grid could be called over to deal 
with an emergency on the other side of town -- of course creating an 
upsurge in crime in their regular patrolling neighborhood at the same time. 
Then the contacts could be flagged (during the duration of the crisis, 
unflagged when it ends) to give you missions like, "Officer SoandSo's 
patrol beat is unguarded at this moment -- please go hand a beatdown to any 
baddies stealing TVs there RIGHT NOW!"

Not to mention the awesome massive battles you could get when two dozen 
cops have been called over to fire at a Hydra Spawn rampaging through the 
city -- heroes desperately needed to stop the cops from getting whomped on.

>> That's not even close. CoH captured the feel of comic book fights very
>> well.
> 
>     I disagree - in some ways, it captures it. Still, it never really
> feels like the X-Men or Batman to me

In large part, because even though you can frigging create a *blizzard* 
from your hands, a couple of street punks can still give you trouble. 
That's just ridiculous.

Freedom Force was much better at capturing the feel of comic book battles, 
IMO. CoH makes the heroes feel too inept and insignificant.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:

>
>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>
><snip a very negative assessment>
>
>CoH isn't for everyone, doesn't seem like it was for you. After reading most
>of your points, I think I understand your point of view and I can see why
>you wouldn't necessarily like it. You cite Star Wars Galaxies and EverQuest
>several times in favorable light, which suggests that you're the kind of
>player who prefers a much more complex game. Your reference to CoH as a
>"dumbed down" MMORPG is more suport of this.

I wouldn't have said "dumbed down" (at least not in a neutral forum
hah) but I would have said "mmorpg-lite". Which is of course what
appeals to the casual powergamer. All the benefits with none of the
effort.

Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
characteristic of a powergamer.


>As for your comments regarding the game's AI, I think you're just flat out
>wrong. I've played every major MMOG there is and the AI has ranged from
>utterly stupid to mildly non-stupid. This one's AI is in the latter category
>(honestly, there aren't many game AI's in general that are worthy of high
>praise, certainly not in MMOGs). The key point is that relatively speaking,
>CoH's is miles above the norm and as good as any out there. Mobs low on
>health will run to get friends, they will heal each other, they buff, and
>yes, EverQuest has been doing this for years. If your point is that other
>MMOGs have *some* of these same characteristics, that's fine. But here we
>are talking about an AI that on release 1.0 is at least as good as one
>that's been around for 5 years.

I would hope that AI would advance as more modern games were released.
I don't consider a brand new game having an AI as good as a five year
old game to be a point in the new game's favor. I expect it to be
downright better. And if the time frame is over five years, like it is
in comparison with EQ, I expect it to be better in every damn way. You
tell me, having played both... is CoH's AI better than EQ's in every
way?


>This game has been out one week and people are seeing the very earliest
>levels (20's at the most) in a world that currently supports 40 levels and
>will support 50 shortly. It takes a LOT longer to go from 20-30 than it did
>from 10-20, so I see plenty of adventure ahead. If the content ahead is
>anything like the content I've seen thus far, and the stability and polish
>remains as impressive throughout, I'll continue to be hugely impressed with
>this little gem. I have a moderate wish list of things I'd like to see, but
>meanwhile, this is one HELL of a 1.0 release.

Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> wrote in

> Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
> guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
> wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
> short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
> before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.

I fear you're right, Ben. :(

I've found there to be little to CoH that would give it long-term appeal. 
Most of the things that have made my jaw drop, and have made me jump up and 
down on my bed, have been the first times I've realized something. Such as, 
"OMG I can SWIM in this game HOW COOL IS THAT?" or "OMG I can activate my 
flying in MID-FALL how cool is THAT??"

But when the discovery process runs dry...there's little to the game but 
killing one mob after another. Over and over and over and over again.

Some people like that. I anticipate about two weeks before I give up on the 
game.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>> from work for a little fun.
> 
> I don't understand this statement at all.
> 
> I've been playing the game 16h/day, all day, no life whatsoever, since 
> Monday, and I've yet to have a single character get to 10th level.
> 
> This is *so* not a game for someone who just wants to have 'a little fun'. 

You're joking. I've been playing for three days and I have three
level 10 characters. I barely put in 2-3 hours each day. I
literally go from level 1 to level 10 by playing from 7 pm to
about 9 pm, and then from 11 pm to about a little after midnight.

You _ARE_ joking? If not you're either trolling or you're not
playing it right.

Levels 1 to 6 can be done in less than an hour by just doing the
starter missions. After that get some hunting missions and group.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>>   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
>>   unfolding that's not too shabby.
> 
> I can't believe you're seriously saying this. You must have a different 
> copy of the game than me.

I read the dialogue and follow the story. Maybe you're just
looking at the objectives.


> I've found the item system pretty much pointless. In fact, if I start 
> another character, I might well give it a whirl to see what happens if I 
> don't use inspirations/enhancements (all the 'items' in the game) at all, 
> to see if there's any noticeable change. I suspect there might be a minor 
> niggling feel that the character is underperforming, but other than that, 
> I foresee the exact same experience.

This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> I've found the item system pretty much pointless. In fact, if I start
>> another character, I might well give it a whirl to see what happens
>> if I don't use inspirations/enhancements

> This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.

Because I use the inspirations and enhancements? Can you elaborate how they 
slow down my progress?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

> You're joking. I've been playing for three days and I have three
> level 10 characters. I barely put in 2-3 hours each day. I
> literally go from level 1 to level 10 by playing from 7 pm to
> about 9 pm, and then from 11 pm to about a little after midnight.

I find that difficult to imagine. Do you solo or group?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:

> I've tried Virtue, Protector, Infinity.
> The behavior is _exactly_ the same on all three, regardless of how
> loaded the server is.

Just as a possible solution.

Have you flashed your router with the latest firmware upgrade?  I ask only 
because when Planetside first came out, I found it completely unplayable, 
I kept getting dropped every 3 to 5 minutes.  Flashed the router, and that 
behavior completely stopped.

On Thu, 06 May 2004 00:09:56 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>
wrote:

>Simon Nejmann snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk wrote:
>
>> But even so it is his opinion and you should not try to shut him up
>> just because you don't like his opinion. Ignore him, discuss with him
>> or just disagree with him - just don't tell him: "shut up, you don't
>> have the right to vocally not like this game".
>
>I don't recall ever typing that. Feel free to google for the
>archvies of these threads and quote me.

No, you didn't type anything like that - that was why it was preceeded
by:
**
Disclaimer: The following is very generally worded and not aimed at
anybody in particular. As such "you" refers to the general public and
not to shadows, any particular reader or any other specific person.
**

>All I'm saying is the type of criticism so far is based on
>fantasy and not on any facts.

I get that, and I take it into consideration along with every other
opinion expressed in this thread in my consideration if CoH is a game
I should try.
My only point is, that I want to hear everybodies opinions, without
censorship. Again, this is not directed at you, but more at the
general feel I was beginning to get from this thread - Clogar has an
opinion, let him say it and then try to correct him where you think he
is wrong, just as he will try to correct the flaws he sees in what you
write.

-- 
Regards
   Simon Nejmann

Brian Trosko <btrosko@panix.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
>
>> I've tried Virtue, Protector, Infinity.
>> The behavior is _exactly_ the same on all three, regardless of how
>> loaded the server is.
>
>Just as a possible solution.
>
>Have you flashed your router with the latest firmware upgrade?  I ask only 
>because when Planetside first came out, I found it completely unplayable, 
>I kept getting dropped every 3 to 5 minutes.  Flashed the router, and that 
>behavior completely stopped.

I don't _have_ a router.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Thus spake Simon Nejmann <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk>, Thu, 06 May
2004 09:10:34 +0200, Anno Domini:

>On Thu, 06 May 2004 00:09:56 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Simon Nejmann snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk wrote:
>>
>>> But even so it is his opinion and you should not try to shut him up
>>> just because you don't like his opinion. Ignore him, discuss with him
>>> or just disagree with him - just don't tell him: "shut up, you don't
>>> have the right to vocally not like this game".
>>
>>I don't recall ever typing that. Feel free to google for the
>>archvies of these threads and quote me.
>
>No, you didn't type anything like that - that was why it was preceeded
>by:
>**
>Disclaimer: The following is very generally worded and not aimed at
>anybody in particular. As such "you" refers to the general public and
>not to shadows, any particular reader or any other specific person.
>**
>
>>All I'm saying is the type of criticism so far is based on
>>fantasy and not on any facts.
>
>I get that, and I take it into consideration along with every other
>opinion expressed in this thread in my consideration if CoH is a game
>I should try.
>My only point is, that I want to hear everybodies opinions, without
>censorship. Again, this is not directed at you, but more at the
>general feel I was beginning to get from this thread - Clogar has an
>opinion, let him say it and then try to correct him where you think he
>is wrong, just as he will try to correct the flaws he sees in what you
>write.

This whole fucking sordid affair would just by silenced if MMOG publishers
had a half a brain cell to rub together & a half a spine to stand on by:
RELEASING A TIME LIMITED FULLY ACTIVE DEMO/TRIAL PERIOD OF THE GAME FFS!!!

I took a plunge & forked out ~AU$70 - not something I would *ever* do
without a good demo or an, *ahem*, 'eval' copy via Shareaza. The number of
games I play for 10-30 minutes & discard (I'm on unlimited 512K) is about
10:1 to what I buy. A game that doesn't get past the 1st hour is 'shit' IMO
& the developer doesn't deserve my hard-earned cash for crapware. However, I
had to rely on this group's opinions, web previews/reviews & other
testimonials before I splurged on CoH & took a big risk in doing so. I was
lucky this time, but if I got sucked into bugfests-at-release like AO, SWG
or some of the others I would be *demanding* my money back and/or suing -
mark my words - if a vendor sells you a damaged/misrepresented product you
have *every* right to demand your money back to the last penny. But who
needs that shit? Me, I chase vendors for SLAs & deliverables for a living
(virtually) so I enjoy it! >;-))

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Thus spake Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com>, Thu, 06 May 2004 00:21:32 GMT,
Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> 
>[snip]
>> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>> more months...
>
>     Which is the truly sad thing. MMORPGs should be improving over the
>months, not gathering dust and exiting their "Golden Age." ::sigh::

Let's hope CoH has the longevity & player base, along with the evolution it
requires to sustain itself for much longer. If a treadmill like Evercrack
can do it, surely a polished-at-release *F-U-N* out-of-the-box product like
CoH *must* be able to do it! <fingers crossed>
E.G. I *loved* ATITD (in almost all ways), but there were just not enough
players in my timezone. I play a mmorpg *because* of the 'mm' as much as
anything else...

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Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 03:34:15
GMT, Anno Domini:

>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>name "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>:
>
>>Nostromo wrote:
>>>> If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>>> "shine" wears off I may bite.
>>>
>>> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>>> more months...
>>
>>If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
>>worth playing at all.
>
>This game gives the distinct impression of big initial flash, no
>staying power whatsoever.
>
>Maybe a good marketting decision. They might know they don't really
>have the legs, so they release at the perfect time when a large
>population chunk is willing to try something new, bored of the old
>games and disappointed with the new... but will also be free to dump
>it when WoW comes out in a few months and EQ2 sometime late in the
>year or early next, rather than feeling like they've committed to it
>like people do with deeper, gutsier mmorpgs.

You haven't played this game yet at all I take it Ben? Wipe your chin mate.
;-p

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Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Wed, 5 May 2004 22:27:59
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>>> If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>> "shine" wears off I may bite.
>>
>> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>> more months...
>
>If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
>worth playing at all.

Only time will tell. From even the little I've seen so far, it's a stayer
(if the devels have *any* brains & keep expanding content, missions, new
heros/areas, etc). But people can be fickle sheep...I know there's a lot of
WoW-factor sheep in here...it's amazing what one can sell to oneself on a
self-promise (like SWG). I fully expect WoW to be a flop, if for no other
reason than Buzzard & their BNet antics of many years. Lest we forget, we,
the customer is the *least* important part of their equation & our money the
first, foremost & only part to the *entire* equation.

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Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 03:35:46
GMT, Anno Domini:

>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>
>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>from work for a little fun.
>
>No offense but you reek of fanboy.

And you positively puke of nolifeboy. And your mother is on the cover of
Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly. No offence. ;-p

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Samy Merchi wrote:

[snip]
>>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
> Except these very rapidly cease to become surprises, and it becomes
> evident that they're rigid scripting instead, that you learn to
> anticipate and prepare for.
[...]
>*In the same space*, the other
> three Skulls didn't notice a huge massive firefight, gunfire, energy
> blasts slung this way and that.
[...]
> Not to mention that, every single foe falls the exact same way. Start
> off with Ice Blast, it retaliates with its own ranged weapon, then
> Ice Bolt, it runs to you, then Frost Breath and it has time to strike
> you once, and then you finish it off with the Chillblain. Works the
> same, *every damn time*, whether it's a Skull, or a Sprocket, or a
> Thorn Wielder, or a Cadaver.
[...]
> All missions I've ran into so far fall into two categories:
> * Kill <number> of <bad guy category> [optional addition: in <city
> section>]. As in, 'Kill 10 Skulls in Skyway City', for example.
> * Go to a door on city map, go inside, kill everything inside. Click
> on all glowing things if any.
[...]
> Nearly all powers are similar to
> already-existing ones with minor tweaking. There's a *lot* of
> duplication and redundancy around, with different powers made out of
> basically the same thing with teeny-tiny changes.
[...]
> To me, a 'living breathing world' means a world where things change.
> In CoH, things most definitely do not change. You can solve however
> many missions, none of it matters one whit. ...No matter
> people are so obsessed with the levelling -- because it's the only
> interesting thing in the game world. Everything else is less than
> one-dimensional.
[...]
> Your hitpoints scale to how much damage the opponents at your level
> do, and their hitpoints increase similarly while your damage output
> does....you end
> up spending just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1
> as you do at level 9.
[...]
> Tedious kill-kill- kill leveling grind, as opposed
> to actual CRPGs which make you feel good and epic when you progress
> in a plot and save the world.

An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual gameplay 
and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg it is teh 
roxxor" superlatives. You've saved me from yet another whack-a-mole grind 
with reskinned a_giant_rat_001's disguised as a game. *bows*
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Nostromo wrote:
> Only time will tell. From even the little I've seen so far, it's a
> stayer (if the devels have *any* brains & keep expanding content,
> missions, new heros/areas, etc).

I probably wouldn't be nearly as skeptical if I hadn't been so thoroughly
bummed by Sacred.

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Clogar wrote:
> Seriously - if your criminal element stands around taking twenty
> minutes to steal a purse in broad daylight, you live in one fucked up
> city. That's all there is to it.

I saw one in Chicago once.  The idiot must have had a royal brain fart.  It
was during peak lunch hour at the intersection of  Wacker and Michigan.  He
snatched and ran . . . all of about 100 yards before what looked like half
the Chicago Police Department descended on him with a wrath terrible to
behold.

I was impressed.
-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

"Ben Sisson" <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:ancj9050t31i69cglnmj3s4vollrmcja4v@4ax.com...

> I wouldn't have said "dumbed down" (at least not in a neutral forum
> hah) but I would have said "mmorpg-lite". Which is of course what
> appeals to the casual powergamer. All the benefits with none of the
> effort.

Well, there's a fair amount of effort, just not as much tedious effort. The
grind is cleverly disquised in a number of diversions and subgames like the
Enhancement sub-game.

> I would hope that AI would advance as more modern games were released.

You would be disappointed. Very few advances have been made in consumer
gaming AI in recent years and the MMOGs aren't exactly defining the
technology roadmap.

> I don't consider a brand new game having an AI as good as a five year
> old game to be a point in the new game's favor.

But it is, because what it means is that this 1.0 release comes out of the
gate with an AI that's already at least as good as one that has evolved to
an endpoint in its lifecycle. It took EverQuest 5 years to get to where it
is today and CoH *starts* at this point, hopefully with an architecture that
will allow it to improve from this baseline. This is speculation of course,
I have no idea what kind of architecture the game has, but given how solid
it looks, feels and runs, I'm confident that there's a good foundation under
the hood.

> You tell me, having played both... is CoH's AI better than EQ's in every
> way?

I dont know that it's better, it's very comparable. Mobs do smart things
when they are in trouble like try and get away to summon friends who then
come back and help. They are very good at helping each other in battle by
teleporting in sorcerors that can heal the wounded and then teleport out
before you can attack the sorcerors. That particular play is ANNOYING. If
you have two Sorcerors cornered they will take turns healing each other and
teleporting away so that it's difficult to gain ground against them. They
know how to concentrate fire and they'll strategically retreat on occasion.
It's much too late for me to think of other improvements, my impressions so
far have been very favorable. The game is not a cakewalk once you get into
the high teens and twenties, you will have to think about tactics to
survive.

> Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
> guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
> wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
> short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
> before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.

Yeah, that's the big question here. Hard to tell what the answer is becasuse
no one I know got high enough in beta to tell me about high end content. I
do know that there are very different encounters ahead in the Trial Zones.
Trials require at least 25 members of the same SuperGroup (think guild) and
the rewards are various permanent medals and other badges of victory, but
little is known about these and what kind of encounters they represent.

There are also a number of Task Forces set up as chains of storied missions
involving arch-villains and some meta game, with very nice rewards. There
are some problems still here (bugs) and I'm waiting till they get fixed
before I attempt to do another.

My sense is that this team is capable of keeping sustaining interest by
adding new content regularly, just like EverQuest did. They did a pretty
damned nice job with the 1.0, so I have some reason to believe they can keep
the magic coming. But all these things have been said before, so ... we'll
see.

-- 
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Thu, 6 May 2004 07:38:59
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> Only time will tell. From even the little I've seen so far, it's a
>> stayer (if the devels have *any* brains & keep expanding content,
>> missions, new heros/areas, etc).
>
>I probably wouldn't be nearly as skeptical if I hadn't been so thoroughly
>bummed by Sacred.

Well, same here to some extent - but let's face it - this is a completely
different genre & type of game - take a plunge ;-)

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Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> 
>>> I've found the item system pretty much pointless. In fact, if I start
>>> another character, I might well give it a whirl to see what happens
>>> if I don't use inspirations/enhancements
> 
>> This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.
> 
> Because I use the inspirations and enhancements? Can you elaborate how they 
> slow down my progress?

Because you find the items "useless." The enhancements are very
useful and I find critical to success when used right.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
>> You're joking. I've been playing for three days and I have three
>> level 10 characters. I barely put in 2-3 hours each day. I
>> literally go from level 1 to level 10 by playing from 7 pm to
>> about 9 pm, and then from 11 pm to about a little after midnight.
> 
> I find that difficult to imagine. Do you solo or group?

Mostly solo. Why is it difficult to imagine?

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

"mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in message
news:409a1e22@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
gameplay
> and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg it is teh
> roxxor" superlatives. You've saved me from yet another whack-a-mole grind
> with reskinned a_giant_rat_001's disguised as a game. *bows*

Except that he's not describing the game that I'm playing. ;-) I think it's
probably because he's relying on experiences from characters level 1 through
7 or so. Doesn't sound like he's encountered the more challenging
environments yet.
-- 
Bob Perez

"Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they
quit playing."
- Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes

Samy Merchi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
> 
>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>from work for a little fun.
> 
> 
> I don't understand this statement at all.
> 
> I've been playing the game 16h/day, all day, no life whatsoever, since 
> Monday, and I've yet to have a single character get to 10th level.
> 
> This is *so* not a game for someone who just wants to have 'a little fun'. 
> This game requires you to put in some serious time to develop your 
> characters. I've been working hard for two days on a single character, some 
> 20+ hours on the character, and I'm only at 9th level so far.
> 
> Somebody who only has 1-3 hours after work, is going to be pretty damn 
> disappointed with what they get per evening.
> 
> CoH definitely requires playing it as "no life" -- and even then you get 
> anywhere slowly, once you're out of the more rational and satisfactory 
> advancement speed of levels 1-5 or thereabouts.
> 

I've been playing it no more than 2 -4 hours a day since the weekend, 
and I have:

A Scrapper at level 7.
A Defender at level 4.
A Tanker at level 4.

My Scrapper just recently went up two levels over the past couple of 
days (from level 5).

This game, so far, is PERFECT for the casual gamer as long as you get 
instanced missions or can find a place to play away from other heroes 
and poachers ...

Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> abagooba zoink larblortch 
news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com:


>     In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games 
> allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and

Yes, reduced numbers crunching so real human beings would be interested in 
playing instead of no-life mama's-basement-dwellers.


>      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've 
> improved the game?

Yes, because it encourages people to actually play instead of no-life 
mama's-basement-dweller behavior on the order of setting up an online JOB, 
of all things, to have an online daily grind.  That may be great for a 
basement-dweller, but actual human beings don't go for that.  We already 
have jobs and daily grinds.


> market. Also, it tends to get VERY boring VERY quickly to non-casual
> players - so much so that I do not recommend it. Good concept, not the

You mean, it gets very boring for no-life mama's-basement-dwellers.  That's 
fine.  They can go off to MMORPGs for no-life 45-year-old-virgins, like 
EverQuest, and leave CoH to actual human beings.

"James A. Cathcart" <jcthcrt@comcast.net> abagooba zoink larblortch
news:Rx2mc.26486$TD4.3804335@attbi_s01: 

> I have to respectfully disagree with Clogar's tone here. As a player
> who has only experienced SWG and CoH (in other words, a newbie I
> guess, although I've been playing other types of games now for 20

You've still got a life.  Stop bathing, eat only Mountain Dew and Cheezee 
Poofs, refuse to leave your mama's basement.  You'll come around to the One 
True Dedicated MMORPG outlook.

Samy Merchi wrote:

> Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in
> 
> 
>>Dunno about you but I never saw superheros in the comics get
>>stronger/faster/smarter/whatever.
> 
> 
> Then you haven't read many comics.
> 
> Powerups are a staple of superheroics in comics. Stronger? The Thing 
> started off much weaker than he is now. Faster? Wally West at one point 
> went at the speed of sound, now the speed of light. Smarter? Bart Allen 
> just underwent a fairly massive increase in book-learning.
> 

They also get weaker.

Wolverine lost the adamantium for a while.  The Hulk turned into the 
grey model that had less invulnerability.  The Beast lost his 
intelligence for a while.

I think the Enhancements capture this notion.  I don't know what the 
origin-specific ones are, precisely, but I'm going to guess that for a 
mutant, at least, it will be a genetic alteration, and so will be 
similar to some of your examples.

Clogar wrote:

> Holden wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>Actually CoH just moves the attributes off the character and on to the
>>powers. You can still customize your character like any other mmog, in
>>fact you can customize it even more than in many mmogs. Rather than
>>raising dex or whatever attribute adds to your to-hit rating, you add
>>+accuracy enhancements to your powers.
> 
> 
>      Not exactly the same, though. Ability scores in most games 
> determine the nature of who you are - the enhancements in CoH give you
> small boosts to your powers, which are really the core of your 
> character.

Which I think makes more sense.  I'm not going to change my base 
strength/intelligence that much, but I will train up and learn more.

>>In short, you've got all the options in any other mmog, it's just
>>presented a little differently.
> 
> 
>     I disagree with this on many, many levels - too many to mention
> here. Ability scores in most games define a good chunk of your
> character - in CoH, enhancements do no such thing. Enhancement 
> bonuses (or a lack thereof) won't limit or enhance you like ability
> score placement in other games will - they're just sort of icing.

Um, really?  Adding a ton of damage enhancements to a power will make it 
much more useful in attacking villains, since once I hit them they'll 
take a ton of damage.  But if that's all I do, and they don't get 
recharge or accuracy bonuses and are slow and inaccurate -- then I get 
hosed.

Ability score placements in DAoC seemed to do very little for my 
slightly gimped paladin ...

>>They haven't removed loot, all they've done is change it's form and
>>how it is collected. 
> 
> 
>      Loot, for all intents and purposes, has been removed. Most 
> enhancements are easy to come by and won't unbalance the game (in CoH).
> I don't like how CoH has done this, but I'll say that it did fix a 
> lot of problems.

And I don't WANT the game to be unbalanced.  Why do people have to 
insist that they should be able to be better than everyone else just 
because they got the cool drop?

Most enhancements dropped are crap for my characters anyway ...

>>You can do all kinds of home ec projects in SWG or ATITD though, CoH
>>is all about being a hero, not a tailor.
> 
> 
>     Forge, Iron Man, Microchip, and (in many instances) Batman - all
> "tailors" that were superheroes (granted, Batman had an extremely toned
> body, but he also had a lot of gadgets). Tradeskills could have 
> worked VERY well in CoH.

Not in the traditional way, though, or at least the SWG way where that's 
all you did.  It WOULD be nice to have or be able to gain an ability to 
alter or create technology for heroes -- but it would always have to be 
completely a sideline.  Note that none of the characters you mention 
were "tailors" in any way but secondary.

>>A lot of work? You mean they need to change the variable that
>>determines how close the citizen is to you when he/she says thank you?
>>if they just let them do it from 20 feet away if your in combat and 
>>it won't look so bad; that's what - roughly 3, maybe 4 minutes of
>>work?
> 
> 
> A bit more than that - but what you've said would be a decent quick
> fix to the more annoying aspect of it.

Personally, I don't think it needs to be fixed, because it isn't all 
that big a deal.

>      Still, this goes to my comment about NPC logic - it isn't as above
> average as some people are claiming. Really above-average logic would
> have the NPC police sending out distress calls when they run into some-
> thing REALLY ugly that heroes could respond to. Maybe they could call
> in military-grade units if heroes were in real trouble - all automated,
> of course. But that's not here nor there right now - there are other 
> things that could be added first.

You have to balance realism with game experience, though.  In the first 
case, what if everyone responds and fights over the villains?  In the 
second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
trouble?

It's the same reason why I don't care about the long-distance running 
thankers.  Who cares?  It's okay for the game experience, and that's all 
that matters.

Anyone who wants realism in a superhero game needs their head examined 
[grin].

Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<40998802.5206@nospam.com>...
> Rod wrote:
> > 
> 
> > The original poster was right in all his appreciations, and the game
> > gets even more fun the more you play.
> 
>     Why? If you're playing THE SAME MISSION OVER AND OVER AGAIN (and
> not one has disputed my description of the basic mission), WHY does it
> get even more fun the more you play?

The thing is, the game is fun!  It could be exactly the same mission
over and over, but if in one instance your group is 3 defenders and 3
tanks, it plays entirely different than if it was 1 defender 2
controllers and 3 blasters, or if the controllers are ice controllers
or fire controllers, or if the defenders are dark or empathy.  That's
where the fun is!
Of course, if all you do is solo, then I see why you got bored of the
game.  Even though you can solo in CoH (and many people do), it's
definitely not so much fun as for those who group.
Like you, I played beta for over a month, took two characters to 18
and a score of others to 10.  Now it's retail, and I'm even more
excited about the game than I was ever before.
You keep saying "that's not AI, it's just a code 'if x>10 then
exec_proc' ... yes, so?  we know creatures' AI are lines of code in a
program.  Other games have done this or that... Whatever it is, the AI
in CoH is much more than what I've seen in the other games.  Maybe
each part of it was done in some game or another, but the sum of it
all is and feels much better here.
What types of missions were there in any MMORPG when they were
released?  You expect to see things like the Ring War in EQ?  do you
remember what missions there were in EQ at release? or in DAoC?  yep
you got it, 'fetch me 4 orc scalps' 'take this letter to Joe' 'Bring
me Sgt. Higgins hat'.   So, we're having similar missions at release
of CoH, but the experience of doing them is so much more fun than in
the other games, it's really refreshing.
And who knows what else will come in the future...

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:

>Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 03:35:46
>GMT, Anno Domini:
>
>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>
>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>from work for a little fun.
>>
>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>
>And you positively puke of nolifeboy. And your mother is on the cover of
>Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly. No offence. ;-p

Touched a nerve, I see.

When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
'baby', you know you pegged them right.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Ben Sisson wrote:
> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>
>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>> from work for a little fun.
>
> No offense but you reek of fanboy.

The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
insulted for liking them?

Clogar wrote:
> Holden wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>> Actually CoH just moves the attributes off the character and on to
>> the powers. You can still customize your character like any other
>> mmog, in fact you can customize it even more than in many mmogs.
>> Rather than raising dex or whatever attribute adds to your to-hit
>> rating, you add +accuracy enhancements to your powers.
>
>      Not exactly the same, though. Ability scores in most games
> determine the nature of who you are - the enhancements in CoH give you
> small boosts to your powers, which are really the core of your
> character.

"the nature of who you are" <> "the core of your character"? The powers you
use determine the nature of who you are in a game defined by the use of
powers.

>> But rather than raise them across the board you
>> can specify which powers need extra accuracy, which need longer
>> range, which need more dmg, etc....
>
>    Yes - this is an area of customization I didn't mention.
>
>> In short, you've got all the options in any other mmog, it's just
>> presented a little differently.
>
>     I disagree with this on many, many levels - too many to mention
> here. Ability scores in most games define a good chunk of your
> character - in CoH, enhancements do no such thing. Enhancement
> bonuses (or a lack thereof) won't limit or enhance you like ability
> score placement in other games will - they're just sort of icing.

And I disagree with this. Adding accuracy to your powers accomplishes the
*exact* same affect as raising an attribute tied to accuracy. You didn't
actually state how it's different at all.

> [snip]
>> That explains quests in pretty much every mmog, so CoH is just par
>> for the course here.
>
>      Not really. In some games, there are tradeskill quests - in
> others, quests where taking one action over another can affect further
> quests down the line. There are spying quests, survey quests,
> diplomatic quests, etc, etc, etc... - so far, CoH really only has
> combat quests.

And most of them boil down to "go here, kill x" or "go here, talk to y". You
can give them a bunch of different labels but they are the same thing.

> [snip]
>>>      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
>>> improved the game?
>>
>> They haven't removed loot, all they've done is change it's form and
>> how it is collected.
>
>      Loot, for all intents and purposes, has been removed. Most
> enhancements are easy to come by and won't unbalance the game (in
> CoH). I don't like how CoH has done this, but I'll say that it did
> fix a
> lot of problems.

Not true at all. When you kill something, you get both items and cash. The
items are called enhancements and the cash is called influence and they are
both automatically added to your inventory. Other than that, it is the same
as the loot in any other game. You get things that boost your stats and give
you extra abilities and you get money to buy new stuff with, just like loot
in every other mmog out there.

>> You can still get stuff when you kill mobs but
>> you no longer have to worry about ninja looting or anything like
>> that.
>
>     Some games actually had decent autosplit functions. :)


Like CoH, which automatically apportions the loot among the group.


>> And I'm not sure why everyone likes trade skills in mmogs.
>
>      I don't know why you like some of the things in CoH that you do -
> it is simply enough that there is a large audience of MMORPG players
> that do. ;)
>
> [snip]
>> You can do all kinds of home ec projects in SWG or ATITD though, CoH
>> is all about being a hero, not a tailor.
>
>     Forge, Iron Man, Microchip, and (in many instances) Batman - all
> "tailors" that were superheroes (granted, Batman had an extremely
> toned body, but he also had a lot of gadgets). Tradeskills could have
> worked VERY well in CoH.

I agree, they could work very well. But of those you mentioned, I'm only
familiar with Iron Man  and Batman and neither of them were tailors. Bruce
Wayne built his suit and then fought crime, he didn't build his suit and
then sit around with the other supoerheros gossiping and crocheting the same
suit over and over again. Same with Iron Man, he didn't spend his days
creating suits for other super-heroes to wear, he made his gadgets once and
then he used them.

> [snip]
>>>>   Citizens will thank you for saving them.
>>>
>>>      Citizens will RUN UP TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE IN A FIGHT WITH A NASTY
>>> VILLAIN AND THANK YOU. Muh? The scripting needs A LOT OF WORK. The
>>> citizens will also follow you a long, long way - this never made
>>> sense to me.
>>
>> A lot of work? You mean they need to change the variable that
>> determines how close the citizen is to you when he/she says thank
>> you? if they just let them do it from 20 feet away if your in combat
>> and it won't look so bad; that's what - roughly 3, maybe 4 minutes of
>> work?
>
> A bit more than that - but what you've said would be a decent quick
> fix to the more annoying aspect of it.

Not really. If they don't already have a flag that dictates when a character
is in combat then it's simple to add one. After that, it's just a simple
check before assigning distance.

>> I agree it should be fixed but it's so incredibly minor I have no
>> problems with them concentrating on more important stuff first.
>
>    That was more in response to a comment in the earlier post - there
> are a lot of other things I'd like to see implemented first.
>
>
>> And EQ is different how? :)
>
>      There was a time when EQ was more realistic. Long, long ago... ;)

Aye, I played it at lauch for 18 months. It was more realistic in some ways
but it had plenty of "what the heck?" moments in it.

> [snip]
>> Hmm, I've got a snub-nosed pea shooter and a badge. This street gang
>> is led by a guy that's shooting fire from his eyes and knocking
>> people 30-40 feet in the air with every blow. He's almost immune to
>> bullets and I just saw him beat down a hero who threw a freaking car
>> at him .....yea, you just step back and let me handle it, mr.
>> superhero, we don't need your deadly gamma radiation powers or your
>> fancy mind control here.
>
>      Agree and disagree. There are PLENTY of low-level villains police
> could help with - you know, ESPECIALLY when low-level heroes are
> getting the snot kicked out of them and they need a hand. Not every
> purse-snatcher is shooting fire from his eyes, man! ;)
>
>      Still, this goes to my comment about NPC logic - it isn't as
> above average as some people are claiming. Really above-average logic
> would have the NPC police sending out distress calls when they run
> into some- thing REALLY ugly that heroes could respond to. Maybe they
> could call in military-grade units if heroes were in real trouble -
> all automated, of course. But that's not here nor there right now -
> there are other things that could be added first.


It would be cool to see some more dynamic interactions with npcs, but I'm
satisified with the improvements that have been made thus far, and confident
that Cryptic is going to move forward with the game and make all the right
enhancements.

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

>>> This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.
>> 
>> Because I use the inspirations and enhancements? Can you elaborate
>> how they slow down my progress?
> 
> Because you find the items "useless." The enhancements are very
> useful and I find critical to success when used right.

Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
significant an effect that I'd notice it.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in 
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

>>> You're joking. I've been playing for three days and I have three
>>> level 10 characters. I barely put in 2-3 hours each day. I
>>> literally go from level 1 to level 10 by playing from 7 pm to
>>> about 9 pm, and then from 11 pm to about a little after midnight.
>> 
>> I find that difficult to imagine. Do you solo or group?
> 
> Mostly solo. Why is it difficult to imagine?

Because after the first five or so levels, levels 6+ take me at *least* the 
time you use each night to advance a *single* level.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows wrote:
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>
>>>   There's always a good reason for missions and always a plot
>>>   unfolding that's not too shabby.
>>
>> I can't believe you're seriously saying this. You must have a
>> different copy of the game than me.
>
> I read the dialogue and follow the story. Maybe you're just
> looking at the objectives.
>
>
>> I've found the item system pretty much pointless. In fact, if I start
>> another character, I might well give it a whirl to see what happens
>> if I don't use inspirations/enhancements (all the 'items' in the
>> game) at all, to see if there's any noticeable change. I suspect
>> there might be a minor niggling feel that the character is
>> underperforming, but other than that, I foresee the exact same
>> experience.
>
> This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.

Aye,  equal level SO enhancements add roughly 33% to your powers, so 6 slots
with 6 SOs = 300% effectiveness. That's hardly what I'd call pointless.

It sounds like this guy played the early game and is basing his entire
opinion only on that. The differences he noted at level 9 have no bearing on
how the game is at level 30.

mr bernard langham wrote:
> Samy Merchi wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>>   The villians seem intelligent, or at least behave in a way that
>> Except these very rapidly cease to become surprises, and it becomes
>> evident that they're rigid scripting instead, that you learn to
>> anticipate and prepare for.
> [...]
>> *In the same space*, the other
>> three Skulls didn't notice a huge massive firefight, gunfire, energy
>> blasts slung this way and that.
> [...]
>> Not to mention that, every single foe falls the exact same way. Start
>> off with Ice Blast, it retaliates with its own ranged weapon, then
>> Ice Bolt, it runs to you, then Frost Breath and it has time to strike
>> you once, and then you finish it off with the Chillblain. Works the
>> same, *every damn time*, whether it's a Skull, or a Sprocket, or a
>> Thorn Wielder, or a Cadaver.
> [...]
>> All missions I've ran into so far fall into two categories:
>> * Kill <number> of <bad guy category> [optional addition: in <city
>> section>]. As in, 'Kill 10 Skulls in Skyway City', for example.
>> * Go to a door on city map, go inside, kill everything inside. Click
>> on all glowing things if any.
> [...]
>> Nearly all powers are similar to
>> already-existing ones with minor tweaking. There's a *lot* of
>> duplication and redundancy around, with different powers made out of
>> basically the same thing with teeny-tiny changes.
> [...]
>> To me, a 'living breathing world' means a world where things change.
>> In CoH, things most definitely do not change. You can solve however
>> many missions, none of it matters one whit. ...No matter
>> people are so obsessed with the levelling -- because it's the only
>> interesting thing in the game world. Everything else is less than
>> one-dimensional.
> [...]
>> Your hitpoints scale to how much damage the opponents at your level
>> do, and their hitpoints increase similarly while your damage output
>> does....you end
>> up spending just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1
>> as you do at level 9.
> [...]
>> Tedious kill-kill- kill leveling grind, as opposed
>> to actual CRPGs which make you feel good and epic when you progress
>> in a plot and save the world.
>
> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
> it is teh roxxor" superlatives. You've saved me from yet another
> whack-a-mole grind with reskinned a_giant_rat_001's disguised as a
> game. *bows*

hehe, some people think it's a bit premature to base your decisions on only
one person's opinion, but I suppose there is a chance you could get lucky
and it might be correct. I suppose listening to one or two people who don't
like the game as opposed to the majority who do might make sense in some
way, to some people........I don't know who they are, mind you, but I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt. :)

"Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> wrote in
> "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in message

>> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
>> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg

> Except that he's not describing the game that I'm playing. ;-) I think
> it's probably because he's relying on experiences from characters
> level 1 through 7 or so. Doesn't sound like he's encountered the more
> challenging environments yet.

With all due respect, Bob, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of the 
things I criticized will change at higher levels. Also, I think you've 
misread most of my criticism if you think that 'more challenging' will fix 
the things I had issues with.

I'm glad you enjoy the game. I truly am. Heck, *I* enjoy the game still. 
I'm just foreseeing a fairly rapid decline of my interest in it, unless 
some of those changes you imply start coming to the fore soon. This same 
decline might not happen to you, or many other people, if they enjoy 
different things than I do. And that's good for them. I'm just recounting 
my own experiences.

If you've got positive stories to share, from higher levels, regarding the 
villain intelligence, the dynamism of the world, possible declining 
tediousness of the missions, the powers becoming more varied, the NPCs 
becoming less interchangeable, the plot more compelling, or anything of the 
kind, I really would love to hear any such stories. They might very well 
inspire me to stick with the game longer.

But just saying, 'stuff will get better' in a nebulous nondescript manner 
-- as opposed to specific examples -- will really not inspire many people, 
I suspect. Not me, at least.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in

> Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly

I would read that.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

On Thu, 6 May 2004 02:15:41 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>
>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>> from work for a little fun.
>
>I don't understand this statement at all.
>
>I've been playing the game 16h/day, all day, no life whatsoever, since 
>Monday, and I've yet to have a single character get to 10th level.
>
>This is *so* not a game for someone who just wants to have 'a little fun'. 
>This game requires you to put in some serious time to develop your 
>characters. I've been working hard for two days on a single character, some 
>20+ hours on the character, and I'm only at 9th level so far.
>
>Somebody who only has 1-3 hours after work, is going to be pretty damn 
>disappointed with what they get per evening.
>
>CoH definitely requires playing it as "no life" -- and even then you get 
>anywhere slowly, once you're out of the more rational and satisfactory 
>advancement speed of levels 1-5 or thereabouts.

What you are suggesting is that people are going to want to get to level 40 in
the first week. Why are you trying so hard to top out as quickly as possible?
Why not sit back and enjoy the ride.

On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:24:32 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>
>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>> from work for a little fun.
>>
>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>
>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
>that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
>insulted for liking them?

Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming interest as a
personal assault would the term be relevant.

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665

> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
> trouble?

I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"

It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
about playing in-character.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

On Thu, 6 May 2004 03:41:34 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in news:409990BF.6D7D@nospam.com:
>
>>      Still, this goes to my comment about NPC logic - it isn't as above
>> average as some people are claiming. Really above-average logic would
>> have the NPC police sending out distress calls when they run into some-
>> thing REALLY ugly that heroes could respond to. Maybe they could call
>> in military-grade units if heroes were in real trouble - all automated,
>> of course.
>
>You know, that would be *REALLY* cool. If the grid actually was dynamic, 
>and police from the other side of the grid could be called over to deal 
>with an emergency on the other side of town -- of course creating an 
>upsurge in crime in their regular patrolling neighborhood at the same time. 
>Then the contacts could be flagged (during the duration of the crisis, 
>unflagged when it ends) to give you missions like, "Officer SoandSo's 
>patrol beat is unguarded at this moment -- please go hand a beatdown to any 
>baddies stealing TVs there RIGHT NOW!"
>
>Not to mention the awesome massive battles you could get when two dozen 
>cops have been called over to fire at a Hydra Spawn rampaging through the 
>city -- heroes desperately needed to stop the cops from getting whomped on.
>
>>> That's not even close. CoH captured the feel of comic book fights very
>>> well.
>> 
>>     I disagree - in some ways, it captures it. Still, it never really
>> feels like the X-Men or Batman to me
>
>In large part, because even though you can frigging create a *blizzard* 
>from your hands, a couple of street punks can still give you trouble. 
>That's just ridiculous.
>
>Freedom Force was much better at capturing the feel of comic book battles, 
>IMO. CoH makes the heroes feel too inept and insignificant.

But aren't you suppsed to kind of start of like that and learn about your
abilities? Makes sense that every new character you create is kind of like
someone who has just discovered they have these powers but have no real idea
how to use them or how they are going to change as you get better at using
them.

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in

> Aye,  equal level SO enhancements add roughly 33% to your powers, so 6
> slots with 6 SOs = 300% effectiveness. That's hardly what I'd call
> pointless. 

That is pretty impressive.

> It sounds like this guy played the early game and is basing his entire
> opinion only on that.

Very much so.

> The differences he noted at level 9 have no
> bearing on how the game is at level 30.

Shouldn't the game be fun at every level?

I'm not exactly foreseeing having the *time* to get to level 30 anytime 
soon.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in

> What you are suggesting is that people are going to want to get to
> level 40 in the first week.

No, just 14. :)

> Why are you trying so hard to top out as
> quickly as possible? Why not sit back and enjoy the ride.

Because I want to fly, and enjoying is much more fun when you can fly.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in

>>Freedom Force was much better at capturing the feel of comic book
>>battles, IMO. CoH makes the heroes feel too inept and insignificant.
> 
> But aren't you suppsed to kind of start of like that and learn about
> your abilities? Makes sense that every new character you create is
> kind of like someone who has just discovered they have these powers

Good point.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> writes:

> And I disagree with this. Adding accuracy to your powers accomplishes the
> *exact* same affect as raising an attribute tied to accuracy. You didn't
> actually state how it's different at all.

Because adding an Accuracy enhancement only affects one of relatively
few skills skill, while an "attribute tied to accuracy" in those
stat-oriented games will be something that tricles down to many skills
in some needlessly complicated manner. A set of statistics,
interdependent skill sets and so forth lead to "flavor of the day"
min-maxing number-juggling instead of actual gameplay, and you might
just as well be playing Progressquest.

Think about it: Which was the more popular, the stat-heavy roleplaying
games of SPI, BTRC and Tritac, or the far simpler ones from Steve
Jackson Games and TSR?

People don't necessarily WANT "Excel with 3D graphics" like Anarchy
Online, they just haven't had any stat-light games to choose from
until ToonTown and it's grown-up cousin City of Heroes arrived.

> And most of them boil down to "go here, kill x" or "go here, talk to
> y". You can give them a bunch of different labels but they are the
> same thing.

But CoH (and FFXI) missions/quests are story-driven. Anarchy Online
(which I love) generally has "exp grind" quests whose only purpose is
to make you a higher level character.

> Not true at all. When you kill something, you get both items and
> cash. The items are called enhancements and the cash is called
> influence and they are both automatically added to your inventory.
> Other than that, it is the same as the loot in any other game.

Except you don't juggle precious armor slots and backpacks and item
sets and NODROP and UNIQUE flags and all the other MANAGEMENT stuff
that makes a game more like a chore than entertainment.

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

> Because after the first five or so levels, levels 6+ take me at *least* the 
> time you use each night to advance a *single* level.

Unless you're playing a Controller I don't see how that's
true. It's insanely easy to level insofar as you're ALWAYS doing
something.

Try taking multiple missions and using the "call" feature for
contacts.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

> I'm not exactly foreseeing having the *time* to get to level 30 anytime 
> soon.

Samy to put it bluntly if you play the game badly you won't have
fun at level 30. Take the time to enhance all the powers as much
as you can and do all the missions. You'll get to level 10 in no
time.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
> 
>> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>> trouble?
> 
> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
> who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
> fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
> defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
> just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
> 
> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
> about playing in-character.

Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.

If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
you too.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>
>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>> from work for a little fun.
>>
>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>
>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong.

Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
life crowd".

First hint: there is no perfect game.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>:

>On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:24:32 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote:
>
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>> from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
>>that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
>>insulted for liking them?
>
>Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming interest as a
>personal assault would the term be relevant.

Which was the case here.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:

>Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Wed, 5 May 2004 22:27:59
>-0400, Anno Domini:
>
>>Nostromo wrote:
>>>> If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>>> "shine" wears off I may bite.
>>>
>>> But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>>> more months...
>>
>>If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
>>worth playing at all.
>
>Only time will tell. From even the little I've seen so far, it's a stayer
>(if the devels have *any* brains & keep expanding content, missions, new
>heros/areas, etc). But people can be fickle sheep...I know there's a lot of
>WoW-factor sheep in here...it's amazing what one can sell to oneself on a
>self-promise (like SWG). I fully expect WoW to be a flop, if for no other
>reason than Buzzard & their BNet antics of many years. Lest we forget, we,
>the customer is the *least* important part of their equation & our money the
>first, foremost & only part to the *entire* equation.

Anyone who is a regular here knows I am the last person to step up to
defend Blizzard but what you just said is flat out insane. It'll be a
cold day in hell the day WoW flops. 

I like the idea behind CoH. But its a gimmick mmorpg, not a long term
one, until we see what the expansion brings.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> writes:

> Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
> 
> > Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
> 
> I would read that.

I would subscribe to that.

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in
> 
>> What you are suggesting is that people are going to want to get to
>> level 40 in the first week.
> 
> No, just 14. :)
> 
>> Why are you trying so hard to top out as
>> quickly as possible? Why not sit back and enjoy the ride.
> 
> Because I want to fly, and enjoying is much more fun when you can fly.

It's a novelty unless you use hover and flight in battle. The
only upside of power leaping and flying is that you get to do
rooftop fights where apparently a lot of villians like to do
their crimes.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

chainbreaker wrote:

> Nostromo wrote:
> 
>>>If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>>"shine" wears off I may bite.
>>
>>But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>>more months...
> 
> 
> If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
> worth playing at all.
> 

Why?

The typical game I buy I get maybe 2-3 weeks of play out of before it is 
done. By done I mean I have finished it or shelved it. I'd say 5% of 
them I'd like to replay, and a rare 1% of games stay on my hard drive 
and get constant use. (ie NWN)

So if I buy a game like COH, play it for a month (the tme that comes 
with the game purchase) and then stop playing. How is that any different 
then me buying Sacred and playing it for a month?

Clogar wrote:

> Xocyll wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>You must live in a real nice place where crimes only happen out of
>>sight.
> 
> 
> I used to live in New York City - now I live in Cincinnati. I never
> saw ANYONE stand around trying to steal a woman's purse for 20 
> minutes. I saw a guy kick the shit out of some thief who did a quick
> shoulder snatch of a purse, though. :) 
> 
> Seriously - if your criminal element stands around taking twenty minutes
> to steal a purse in broad daylight, you live in one fucked up city.
> That's all there is to it.


You're so right.

In fact just yesterday I saw these guys in an alleyway mug some poor 
girl, they were a good block away before batman came by and kicked their 
ass.

If you're not going to have realism COH, whats the damm point!?

:)

Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> writes:

> I like the idea behind CoH. But its a gimmick mmorpg, not a long term
> one, until we see what the expansion brings.

For "gimmick" I read "niche that doesn't try to be the next
EverQuest". WoW might have some good ideas but it remains just another
in an endless series of "phantasy" copycats. Asheron's Call at least
had the decency to use some original races. WoW, Horizons, Lineage
2... they all try to go for the market that EverQuest dominates. And
niche/fringe games like CoH, EVE Online etc. can thrive because there
isn't the same competition.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor.iver.wilhelmsen@broadpark.no>:

>Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> writes:
>
>> I like the idea behind CoH. But its a gimmick mmorpg, not a long term
>> one, until we see what the expansion brings.
>
>For "gimmick" I read "niche that doesn't try to be the next
>EverQuest". WoW might have some good ideas but it remains just another
>in an endless series of "phantasy" copycats. Asheron's Call at least
>had the decency to use some original races. WoW, Horizons, Lineage
>2... they all try to go for the market that EverQuest dominates. And
>niche/fringe games like CoH, EVE Online etc. can thrive because there
>isn't the same competition.

I agree with all of that. But it doesn't change the fact I don't see
much of a longevity for CoH until they add in something to keep people
coming back longterm.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Thus spake Dan S <dan@work.com>, Thu, 06 May 2004 15:29:49 -0500, Anno
Domini:

>chainbreaker wrote:
>
>> Nostromo wrote:
>> 
>>>>If there's as much enthusiasm in a couple of weeks or so after the
>>>>"shine" wears off I may bite.
>>>
>>>But you may miss the 'golden years' of a mmorpg is you leave it 3 or
>>>more months...
>> 
>> 
>> If it's only worth playing the first few weeks after its release it's not
>> worth playing at all.
>> 
>
>Why?
>
>The typical game I buy I get maybe 2-3 weeks of play out of before it is 
>done. By done I mean I have finished it or shelved it. I'd say 5% of 
>them I'd like to replay, and a rare 1% of games stay on my hard drive 
>and get constant use. (ie NWN)
>
>So if I buy a game like COH, play it for a month (the tme that comes 
>with the game purchase) and then stop playing. How is that any different 
>then me buying Sacred and playing it for a month?

Excellent & obvious conclusion, one I made a few threads ago in light of the
detractors of CoH on the basis of longevity, but didn't have the energy to
argue...;-)

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 16:02:03
GMT, Anno Domini:

>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:
>
>>Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 03:35:46
>>GMT, Anno Domini:
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>>And you positively puke of nolifeboy. And your mother is on the cover of
>>Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly. No offence. ;-p
>
>Touched a nerve, I see.
>
>When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
>'baby', you know you pegged them right.

Likewise when people lose their sense of humour (assuming they ever had
one)...>;-p

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

Thus spake Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <tor.iver.wilhelmsen@broadpark.no>, 06 May
2004 20:39:24 +0200, Anno Domini:

>Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> writes:
>
>> Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>> 
>> > Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
>> 
>> I would read that.
>
>I would subscribe to that.

E-Commerce page comin up! >8^D

--
Replace 'spamfree' with ('k__umcgl_' + ascii 123456789) to reply via email.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net>:

>Brian Trosko <btrosko@panix.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
>the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
>
>>Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I've tried Virtue, Protector, Infinity.
>>> The behavior is _exactly_ the same on all three, regardless of how
>>> loaded the server is.
>>
>>Just as a possible solution.
>>
>>Have you flashed your router with the latest firmware upgrade?  I ask only 
>>because when Planetside first came out, I found it completely unplayable, 
>>I kept getting dropped every 3 to 5 minutes.  Flashed the router, and that 
>>behavior completely stopped.
>
>I don't _have_ a router.

I'm betting against that solution working then.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:59:05 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in
>
>> What you are suggesting is that people are going to want to get to
>> level 40 in the first week.
>
>No, just 14. :)

Ah. That clears that up then. :-)

>> Why are you trying so hard to top out as
>> quickly as possible? Why not sit back and enjoy the ride.
>
>Because I want to fly, and enjoying is much more fun when you can fly.

Yeah. Saw some screenshots of people flying and it does look fun, gimmick or
not. Still, it does amuse me no end when I hear of some people here wanting to
rush through the levels quickly and then others doubting its longevity......

On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:22:40 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>
>> Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
>
>I would read that.

I'd just look at the pictures.

On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:27:49 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>
>> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>> trouble?
>
>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>
>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>about playing in-character.

I'd put good money on the majority of those people being young American
instant gratification junkies. Used to see that in SWG a lot when hunting,
even so far as to have someone repeatedly challenge me cause I killed a
Womprat that he was about to target. It was funny to annoy that idiot though
so I hung around a bit sniping with my lightning gun! ;-)

On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:20:18 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:

>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>> 
>>> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>> trouble?
>> 
>> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>> who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>> fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>> defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>> just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>> 
>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>> about playing in-character.
>
>Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
>a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
>automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
>they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.
>
>If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>you too.

And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 

On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:16:48 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>"Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> wrote in
>> "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in message
>
>>> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
>>> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
>
>> Except that he's not describing the game that I'm playing. ;-) I think
>> it's probably because he's relying on experiences from characters
>> level 1 through 7 or so. Doesn't sound like he's encountered the more
>> challenging environments yet.
>
>With all due respect, Bob, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of the 
>things I criticized will change at higher levels. Also, I think you've 
>misread most of my criticism if you think that 'more challenging' will fix 
>the things I had issues with.

I think you are probably right on this one. Even at 40-50 you will probably be
doing exactly the same things except the enemies will look different. If you
peer beneath the veneer of almost any game it ends being "Go to point A, kill
B"

>I'm glad you enjoy the game. I truly am. Heck, *I* enjoy the game still. 
>I'm just foreseeing a fairly rapid decline of my interest in it, unless 
>some of those changes you imply start coming to the fore soon. This same 
>decline might not happen to you, or many other people, if they enjoy 
>different things than I do. And that's good for them. I'm just recounting 
>my own experiences.
>
>If you've got positive stories to share, from higher levels, regarding the 
>villain intelligence, the dynamism of the world, possible declining 
>tediousness of the missions, the powers becoming more varied, the NPCs 
>becoming less interchangeable, the plot more compelling, or anything of the 
>kind, I really would love to hear any such stories. They might very well 
>inspire me to stick with the game longer.
>
>But just saying, 'stuff will get better' in a nebulous nondescript manner 
>-- as opposed to specific examples -- will really not inspire many people, 
>I suspect. Not me, at least.

Hopefully the expansion will bring in new elements that are useful and fun
rather than just stocking fillers to appease the massers, with the devs saying
"Look at this really long list of things we added!".

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> Because after the first five or so levels, levels 6+ take me at
>> *least* the time you use each night to advance a *single* level.
> 
> Unless you're playing a Controller I don't see how that's
> true. It's insanely easy to level insofar as you're ALWAYS doing
> something.

Tonight I played a Blaster running around Steel Canyon doing nothing but 
attacking mobs.

It took me 4+ hours to get from level 10.5 to level 11.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
>> than about playing in-character.
> 
> Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
> stealing kills.

I'm just roleplaying my character! She's a hero so of course I wouldn't 
let other people suffer!! Geez!

It *IS* a ROLEPLAYING game, right??


































;)

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch wrote:
> 
[snip]
> But aren't you suppsed to kind of start of like that and learn about
> your abilities? Makes sense that every new character you create is
> kind of like someone who has just discovered they have these powers
> but have no real idea how to use them or how they are going to change
> as you get better at using them.

     From a game balance standpoint, I agree with you, Memnoch - 
it would take a complete re-design of the MMORPG archetype to do 
something Samy was talking about. On the other hand, I also agree
with Samy - there is a huge insignificance factor. Think about how
many of the comic book superheroes (ESPECIALLY the mutants) started
out: one day, they're normal; the next, bursts of energy are
shooting from their bodies and hurting people around them or they're
draining the memories of those they love. They get powered up REALLY
fast, then general spend years trying to fine-tune the base power.
"Natural" heroes that are just physically fit don't have this problem,
but others do.

This is another thing I wish CoH would have done - given the source
of the powers (Natural, Mutation, Science, etc..) more of a game 
impact.

Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
> 
> Clogar <clogarnot@nospam.com> abagooba zoink larblortch
> news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com:
> 
> >     In other words, CoH removes the "attribute scores" other games
> > allow players to assign and move (or just linked them to class and
> 
> Yes, reduced numbers crunching so real human beings would be
> interested in playing instead of no-life mama's-basement-dwellers.

    Spoken like a true school kid who's parents won't let him/her
play more than a few hours a week. Don't worry - there will still
be MMORPGs when you get old enough to get a real job and no longer
have to live under Daddy's rules. ];)
 
> >      In other words, by removing loot and trade skills, they've
> > improved the game?
> 
> Yes, because it encourages people to actually play instead of no-life
> mama's-basement-dweller behavior on the order of setting up an online
> JOB, of all things, to have an online daily grind.  That may be great
> for a basement-dweller, but actual human beings don't go for that.  
> We already have jobs and daily grinds.

      You troll like one of those little dolls - lots of color but
no originality. A garden gnome could have come up with a new insult
by now! ];p

> They can go off to MMORPGs for no-life 45-year-old-virgins, like
> EverQuest, and leave CoH to actual human beings.

     Insults aside, I can see the ad campaign now: City of Heroes -
the only MMORPG for ACTUAL human beings!

;)

Samy Merchi wrote:
>
[snip] 
> It *IS* a ROLEPLAYING game, right??
> 
> ;)

If only that were true. ::sigh::

"Samy Merchi" <samy@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:Xns94E2214E7E282samyikifi@130.232.1.14...
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> > Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>
> >> Because after the first five or so levels, levels 6+ take me at
> >> *least* the time you use each night to advance a *single* level.
> >
> > Unless you're playing a Controller I don't see how that's
> > true. It's insanely easy to level insofar as you're ALWAYS doing
> > something.
>
> Tonight I played a Blaster running around Steel Canyon doing nothing but
> attacking mobs.
>
> It took me 4+ hours to get from level 10.5 to level 11.

CoH is the first MMORPG I've played much of (played Lineage beta and free
DAoC trial, but didn't really get interested in either).

I'm a Illusion/Kinetics Controller, and in about 3-4 hours today, I got from
10 to 11.5 - doing missions is better for xp than just attacking mobs.  You
get all the mob xp, plus a bonus at the end.

Cheers,
Grant

Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:

> Yeah. Saw some screenshots of people flying and it does look fun, gimmick or
> not. Still, it does amuse me no end when I hear of some people here wanting to
> rush through the levels quickly and then others doubting its longevity......

Flying and hovering is not a gimmick. You get defense bonuses and
avoid some nasty ground stuff. Also if the villan cannot fly he
can't do melee unless you fly low. There are other strategic
considerations like avoiding kamikazi style minions.

A lot of Blasters will fly up and hover while firing shots down.

And yeah you can melee fight while flying, especially with other
villans that fly :)

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:

> And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
> just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
> don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 

There's a profanity filter in-game. Use it.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
> On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:16:48 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
> 
>>"Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> wrote in
>>> "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
>>>> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
>>
>>> Except that he's not describing the game that I'm playing. ;-) I think
>>> it's probably because he's relying on experiences from characters
>>> level 1 through 7 or so. Doesn't sound like he's encountered the more
>>> challenging environments yet.
>>
>>With all due respect, Bob, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of the 
>>things I criticized will change at higher levels. Also, I think you've 
>>misread most of my criticism if you think that 'more challenging' will fix 
>>the things I had issues with.
> 
> I think you are probably right on this one. Even at 40-50 you will probably be
> doing exactly the same things except the enemies will look different. If you
> peer beneath the veneer of almost any game it ends being "Go to point A, kill
> B"

Memnoch why don't you actually PLAY the game instead of make
these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
much fun it is.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> 
>>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
>>> than about playing in-character.
>> 
>> Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>> stealing kills.
> 
> I'm just roleplaying my character! She's a hero so of course I wouldn't 
> let other people suffer!! Geez!
> 
> It *IS* a ROLEPLAYING game, right??

Samy, stealing kills is annoying. If you want to help offer to
group. Why is that hard for you to understand? Oh that's
right. You're a "casual player" as you put it. More like a nitwit
player.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

> these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
> hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
> much fun it is.

I actually got the jewel-cave-CoT mission, and tried to do it differently. 
I more or less snuck past all enemies (and ran away from all that spotted 
me) until I found the jewel. Then, all the way back, the same way. But I 
couldn't get the mission completed unless I went and killed all of the 
enemies, even though I'd gotten the jewel. Basically, the game forced me to 
kill all the enemies to complete the mission.

I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all enemies.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in 

> Samy, stealing kills is annoying.

And that's another thing. Using the word 'kill'. HEROES DON'T KILL.

GEEZ.

Talk about a bunch of poor roleplayers.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Holden wrote:
> The term "fanboy" is meaningless.

Actually, it has a quite specific meaning, but is often misapplied. It 
refers to the "true believers", often seen on MMORPG forums, who no matter 
how incredibly fucked up a developer's actions may be, can be relied upon to 
leap rabidly, tiresomely, and predictably to their defense. "Fanboys" have a 
religious calling. No amount of logic or adversity can shake their faith, 
once they've seen the light, and they have an evangelical fervour to spread 
"the word". They are as unwelcome as door-to-door seventh day 
adventists--even to peole who like the game in question.

Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Holden wrote:
> hehe, some people think it's a bit premature to base your decisions
> on only one person's opinion, but I suppose there is a chance you
> could get lucky and it might be correct. I suppose listening to one
> or two people who don't like the game as opposed to the majority who
> do might make sense in some way, to some people........I don't know
> who they are, mind you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. :)

It may be the opinion of one person, but it's by far the most detailed, 
dispassionate, nuts-and-bolts description of the gameplay I've seen so far. 
Short of plonking down a non-refundable $US50--which I don't feel I should 
have to do, by the way, in case I find out I don't like the game and have to 
cancel my account--how else do you suggest I form an opinion?

Perhaps if the "majority of people who do like the game" would post similar, 
detailed accounts rather than simply stating "it rocks", I'd be able to take 
their glowing first-flush impressions more seriously.

Indeed: According to the majority of gamers, I should *love* Counter-Strike. 
After all, 3,000,000 gamers can't be wrong, right? Well, I don't. Luckily, 
it's free, so I didn't have to pay money to discover that fact.
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

shadows wrote:

>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp
>> more than about playing in-character.
>
> Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
> stealing kills.
> If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
> you too.

No, no, he *does* get MMORPGs. He said "99% of the players care more about 
20xp than playing in character". How is that not "getting" MMORPGS?

That he bemoans the fact, and probably wishes MMORPG weren't all just 
progressquest in disguise (where there's nothing to do BUT level your 
character, so the process becomes all-important) doesn't mean that he 
doesn't "get" the process.


-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
> Hey, buddy, did you read my impression?  Since I started out by saying
> "Where's the magic?" I fail to see how you can say that all I said was
> "It rocks".

Didn't see it, sorry. What was the subject?
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
> What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?

Many things--or there certainly should be. This like saying, "what else is 
there to do in cinema than churn out action blockbusters without character 
or depth?" or, "what else is there to do in music than churn out identical 
cookie-cutter boy bands?" Sure, it's the mainstream, thoughtless solution, 
and it appeals to the largest audience, but there are thankfully 
alternatives.

http://www.legendmud.org/raph/gaming/essay1.html

MMORPG gamers break down into many personality types, of which the "power 
gamer/leveller" is only one (but probably the most common, since the 
archetype arguably taps into adolescent male power fantasies).

I, for instance, am an Explorer. I'm more interested in seeing what's 
"around the next corner" than "gaining the next level". Once I've seen all 
the content in a game (and levels, for me, are there to prevent my doing 
that in the first week, by making some content too dangerous to explore) I 
cancel my subscription. Example: I played EQ until I'd finished Lower Gug, 
which as as far as you can go in the Old World, then cancelled rather than 
be locked into a never-ending cycle of buying expansions.

Instancing, for Explorers, is bad news. If most of CoH consists of 
identical, theme-textured, instanced warehouses (I'm not saying that it 
does--indeed, I can't, because nobody's really addressed this issue in 
reviews), then I'm not going to stay interested in the game for very long.


-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Nostromo wrote:
>> So if I buy a game like COH, play it for a month (the tme that comes
>> with the game purchase) and then stop playing. How is that any
>> different then me buying Sacred and playing it for a month?
>
> Excellent & obvious conclusion, one I made a few threads ago in light
> of the detractors of CoH on the basis of longevity, but didn't have
> the energy to argue...;-)

That only makes sense if you don't expect to play anything you get longer
than a month, and that that's good value for your time and money.

If a month is all something's worth fooling with, I'd just as soon leave it
on the shelf and read a good book instead.

I think the last thing I bought knowing I'd get a month or less from it was
Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating
Pectorals!

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Nostromo wrote:
>> Touched a nerve, I see.
>>
>> When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
>> 'baby', you know you pegged them right.
>
> Likewise when people lose their sense of humour (assuming they ever
> had one)...>;-p

I started to tell him you *have* no nerves, but figured you'd eventually get
around to doing it yourself.

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Thus spake Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>, Fri, 07 May 2004
06:26:13 -0700, Anno Domini:

>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>
>>>And you positively puke of nolifeboy. And your mother is on the cover of
>>>Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly. No offence. ;-p
>> 
>> 
>> Touched a nerve, I see.
>> 
>> When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
>> 'baby', you know you pegged them right.
>
>To use a comic book quote:
>
>"That was a joke.  J-O-K-E?"
>
>(Anyone know what that was from?  I do!)

Allan, (I say, I say boy, that was a JOKE son!), it's not funny if ya gotta
explain it...;-)

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Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Thu, 06 May
2004 23:35:08 +0100, Anno Domini:

>On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:22:40 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
>
>>Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>>
>>> Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
>>
>>I would read that.
>
>I'd just look at the pictures.

And that's all? ...

mr bernard langham wrote:
> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
> it is teh roxxor" superlatives. You've saved me from yet another
> whack-a-mole grind with reskinned a_giant_rat_001's disguised as a
> game. *bows*

Likewise, I'm sure.  Much of what he describes sounds a lot like Sacred
even, particularly this:

"Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor
tweaking. There's a lot of duplication and redundancy around, with
different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny
changes."

and this:

"In short, while the numbers may increase in the background (and they stay
largely hidden so you might not even notice this) you end up spending
just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1 as you do at
level 9. That's kind of sad."

There are even more points of similarity, but this is enough to illustrate,
I think.

Again, thanks Samy.  :-)

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Thus spake "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com>, Fri, 7 May 2004
15:01:17 +0800, Anno Domini:

>Holden wrote:
>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless.
>
>Actually, it has a quite specific meaning, but is often misapplied. It 
>refers to the "true believers", often seen on MMORPG forums, who no matter 
>how incredibly fucked up a developer's actions may be, can be relied upon to 
>leap rabidly, tiresomely, and predictably to their defense. "Fanboys" have a 
>religious calling. No amount of logic or adversity can shake their faith, 
>once they've seen the light, and they have an evangelical fervour to spread 
>"the word". They are as unwelcome as door-to-door seventh day 
>adventists--even to peole who like the game in question.

Oh dear, now we're even blaming religion for nolife mmog players' antics?
(or at least using it as a -ve reference comparison)

>Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.

Though all fanboys do like 'the game', to be logically accurate, whereas if
you like the game you are not *necessarily* a fanboy. But you may be a fan.
Which makes you half a fan-boy. And half a religious zealot, is well, like a
Catholic I guess? So, my conclusion is, if you are a fanboy, you are a Hari
Krishna, but if you are just a fan you are Catholic. And, to complete the
metaphor, if you are a boy, then you are a Protestant. Here endeth formal
UseNet logic lesson 101. Have a nice day! >8^D

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Thus spake Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>, Fri, 07 May 2004
06:38:04 -0700, Anno Domini:

>
>
>Memnoch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:20:18 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>>>trouble?
>>>>
>>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>>>>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>>>>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>>>>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>>>>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>>>>
>>>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>>>>about playing in-character.
>>>
>>>Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>>>stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
>>>a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
>>>automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
>>>they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.
>>>
>>>If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>>>you too.
>> 
>> 
>> And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
>> just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
>> don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 
>
>My reply to someone who took one of my kills was "Leave my kills alone", 
>followed by my running off.

But Allan dear, if HE killed the critter, how then is it YOUR kill, pray
tell? Don't make me go to UseNet formal logic lesson 102 on yo ass!!! ;-p

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Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Thu, 06 May
2004 23:39:29 +0100, Anno Domini:

>I'd put good money on the majority of those people being young American
>instant gratification junkies. Used to see that in SWG a lot when hunting,
>even so far as to have someone repeatedly challenge me cause I killed a
>Womprat that he was about to target. It was funny to annoy that idiot though
>so I hung around a bit sniping with my lightning gun! ;-)

He, he. Here's a fun mmorpg game to play: pick a victim, usually someone
really buffed & full of themselves, with grade 3 spelling. Then follow them
around. Do nothing, say nothing. Stick as close as possible, don't help with
kills & keep a safe distance during melee. See how long it takes them to go
over the edge. >;-)

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Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in 
> 
>> Samy, stealing kills is annoying.
> 
> And that's another thing. Using the word 'kill'. HEROES DON'T KILL.
> 
> GEEZ.
> 
> Talk about a bunch of poor roleplayers.

Obviously you haven't met Spawn.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

mr bernard langham notactually@spammenot.com wrote:
> shadows wrote:
> 
>>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp
>>> more than about playing in-character.
>>
>> Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>> stealing kills.
>> If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>> you too.
> 
> No, no, he *does* get MMORPGs. He said "99% of the players care more about 
> 20xp than playing in character". How is that not "getting" MMORPGS?
> 
> That he bemoans the fact, and probably wishes MMORPG weren't all just 
> progressquest in disguise (where there's nothing to do BUT level your 
> character, so the process becomes all-important) doesn't mean that he 
> doesn't "get" the process.

I don't know of a single MMORPG except maybe UO where you had
actual roleplaying. MMORPGs are hack'n'slash 99% of the time. Get
with the program.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Fri, 7 May 2004 07:23:25
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>>> Touched a nerve, I see.
>>>
>>> When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
>>> 'baby', you know you pegged them right.
>>
>> Likewise when people lose their sense of humour (assuming they ever
>> had one)...>;-p
>
>I started to tell him you *have* no nerves, but figured you'd eventually get
>around to doing it yourself.

:-p

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Fri, 7 May 2004 07:21:03
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>>> So if I buy a game like COH, play it for a month (the tme that comes
>>> with the game purchase) and then stop playing. How is that any
>>> different then me buying Sacred and playing it for a month?
>>
>> Excellent & obvious conclusion, one I made a few threads ago in light
>> of the detractors of CoH on the basis of longevity, but didn't have
>> the energy to argue...;-)
>
>That only makes sense if you don't expect to play anything you get longer
>than a month, and that that's good value for your time and money.
>
>If a month is all something's worth fooling with, I'd just as soon leave it
>on the shelf and read a good book instead.
>
>I think the last thing I bought knowing I'd get a month or less from it was
>Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating
>Pectorals!

Why am I not surprised? ;-p

Hey, 1 month is all I got out of a lot of games I enjoyed & thought were ok
value for money (e.g. Halo, Broken Sword1/2/3, CoD, Chrome, DS, FarCry
(probably), KoToR, MP1/2, MOHAA, NOLF1/2, SS1/2, ST:EF1/2, TLJ, ATITD, ToEE,
Unreal2, Zanzarah, the list probably goes on). Games like rpgs, mp fps,
strategy, etc, you expect more longevity from, but if I play a mmog for a
month flat out, clock several dozen hours, I reckon I've got good value,
even if I drop out before the 2nd month. Nothing ventured...? OTOH, games
like D2, BG1/2, Quake1/2/3, RTCW, Wolf:ET, NWN, etc, lasted a lot longer
probably because the replay wasn't so much in the core game but in the
plug-ins, mods, add-ons & online value.

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Nostromo wrote:
>> I think the last thing I bought knowing I'd get a month or less from
>> it was Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the
>> Pulsating Pectorals!
>
> Why am I not surprised? ;-p

Oh, come on--you expect me to believe that *you* never picked up a Leisure
Suit Larry title?  :D
-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

chainbreaker noone@nowhere.com wrote:

> Likewise, I'm sure.  Much of what he describes sounds a lot like Sacred
> even, particularly this:
> 
> "Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor
> tweaking. There's a lot of duplication and redundancy around, with
> different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny
> changes."
> 
> and this:
> 
> "In short, while the numbers may increase in the background (and they stay
> largely hidden so you might not even notice this) you end up spending
> just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1 as you do at
> level 9. That's kind of sad."
> 
> There are even more points of similarity, but this is enough to illustrate,
> I think.
> 
> Again, thanks Samy.  :-)

I don't know if you're intentionally trolling or you just can't
read. Samy can't get past level 6. How would he know what its
like to play at level 9? If you don't believe me check his posts.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Nostromo wrote:
> He, he. Here's a fun mmorpg game to play: pick a victim, usually
> someone really buffed & full of themselves, with grade 3 spelling.
> Then follow them around. Do nothing, say nothing. Stick as close as
> possible, don't help with kills & keep a safe distance during melee.
> See how long it takes them to go over the edge. >;-)

I put an aggravating-as-hell construction coworker of mine in the hospital
once upon a time by doing just about that very thing for a shift.

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

mr bernard langham notactually@spammenot.com wrote:

> Instancing, for Explorers, is bad news. If most of CoH consists of 
> identical, theme-textured, instanced warehouses (I'm not saying that it 
> does--indeed, I can't, because nobody's really addressed this issue in 
> reviews), then I'm not going to stay interested in the game for very long.

All missions which involve entering any structure are.

There are dungeons which aren't instanced. Like the sewer system
in the city.

To explore in CoH you'd do the special missions at later levels
which involve their own story arc which is distinct from other
arcs based on your origin.

To be frank, I haven't seen any decent "explorer" content on many
MMORPGs. Very little actually. Most of the landscape is not
interactive except for killing mobs.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

mr bernard langham wrote:

> Holden wrote:
> 
>>hehe, some people think it's a bit premature to base your decisions
>>on only one person's opinion, but I suppose there is a chance you
>>could get lucky and it might be correct. I suppose listening to one
>>or two people who don't like the game as opposed to the majority who
>>do might make sense in some way, to some people........I don't know
>>who they are, mind you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. :)
> 
> 
> It may be the opinion of one person, but it's by far the most detailed, 
> dispassionate, nuts-and-bolts description of the gameplay I've seen so far. 
> Short of plonking down a non-refundable $US50--which I don't feel I should 
> have to do, by the way, in case I find out I don't like the game and have to 
> cancel my account--how else do you suggest I form an opinion?
> 
> Perhaps if the "majority of people who do like the game" would post similar, 
> detailed accounts rather than simply stating "it rocks", I'd be able to take 
> their glowing first-flush impressions more seriously.

Hey, buddy, did you read my impression?  Since I started out by saying 
"Where's the magic?" I fail to see how you can say that all I said was 
"It rocks".

What other details would you like to know?

I admit that I often swear sometimes at the inability to find things to 
hunt and the messed up targetting controls ...

Nostromo wrote:

> Oh dear, now we're even blaming religion for nolife mmog players'
> antics? (or at least using it as a -ve reference comparison)

It's interesting when fanboys implode. I've seen it happen. Months of 
posting googly-eyed "true believer" stuff, "it'll be fixed in the next 
patch, just you wait", "trust the developers, they know what they're doing", 
"i want this game to succeed so badly i'm prepared to sacrifice my firstborn 
to it", etc. Gradually (or suddenly, perhaps) reality wears them down. They 
lose their religion, rage against the developer who "betrayed their trust" 
in an explosion of monumentally bitter forum flames, and are never seen 
again.

One extreme to another. It's all terribly melodramatic.
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:
> 
> 
>>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>>
>><snip a very negative assessment>
>>
>>CoH isn't for everyone, doesn't seem like it was for you. After reading most
>>of your points, I think I understand your point of view and I can see why
>>you wouldn't necessarily like it. You cite Star Wars Galaxies and EverQuest
>>several times in favorable light, which suggests that you're the kind of
>>player who prefers a much more complex game. Your reference to CoH as a
>>"dumbed down" MMORPG is more suport of this.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't have said "dumbed down" (at least not in a neutral forum
> hah) but I would have said "mmorpg-lite". Which is of course what
> appeals to the casual powergamer. All the benefits with none of the
> effort.
> 
> Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
> this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
> They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
> game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
> allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
> characteristic of a powergamer.

Says the person who isn't a casual gamer.  Forgive me if I, an actual 
casual gamer, takes this with a shaker of salt.

Casual gamers complain when in order to advance to higher levels you 
have to spend a lot of time and commit to the game and when all the cool 
content -- or, at least, there's a lot of it -- is at the higher levels. 
  A game that I can get onto and advance in to higher level content 
easily is much better for a casual gamer.

What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?

That being said, it seems that CoH has both fun at lower levels and an 
ease in levelling up.  It's the perfect game for the casual gamer.

> 
> 
> 
>>As for your comments regarding the game's AI, I think you're just flat out
>>wrong. I've played every major MMOG there is and the AI has ranged from
>>utterly stupid to mildly non-stupid. This one's AI is in the latter category
>>(honestly, there aren't many game AI's in general that are worthy of high
>>praise, certainly not in MMOGs). The key point is that relatively speaking,
>>CoH's is miles above the norm and as good as any out there. Mobs low on
>>health will run to get friends, they will heal each other, they buff, and
>>yes, EverQuest has been doing this for years. If your point is that other
>>MMOGs have *some* of these same characteristics, that's fine. But here we
>>are talking about an AI that on release 1.0 is at least as good as one
>>that's been around for 5 years.
> 
> 
> I would hope that AI would advance as more modern games were released.
> I don't consider a brand new game having an AI as good as a five year
> old game to be a point in the new game's favor. I expect it to be
> downright better. And if the time frame is over five years, like it is
> in comparison with EQ, I expect it to be better in every damn way. You
> tell me, having played both... is CoH's AI better than EQ's in every
> way?

You can only say that if EQ's AI has not gotten better in those 5 years. 
   If it has, then it is a point in the game's favour since it is as 
good as anything out there out of the box, with room for improvement.

> 
> 
> 
>>This game has been out one week and people are seeing the very earliest
>>levels (20's at the most) in a world that currently supports 40 levels and
>>will support 50 shortly. It takes a LOT longer to go from 20-30 than it did
> 
>>from 10-20, so I see plenty of adventure ahead. If the content ahead is
> 
>>anything like the content I've seen thus far, and the stability and polish
>>remains as impressive throughout, I'll continue to be hugely impressed with
>>this little gem. I have a moderate wish list of things I'd like to see, but
>>meanwhile, this is one HELL of a 1.0 release.
> 
> 
> Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
> guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
> wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
> short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
> before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.
> 

Again with the DAoC bashing.  You need a new schtick.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
> 
> 
>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
> 
>>from work for a little fun.
> 
> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
> 

Which in Ben's world translates to "Thinks that a game is better than I 
think it is".

I think his statement accurately reflects the casual gamer attitude and 
the way CoH caters to that.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:
> 
> 
>>Thus spake Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca>, Thu, 06 May 2004 03:35:46
>>GMT, Anno Domini:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>
>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>>And you positively puke of nolifeboy. And your mother is on the cover of
>>Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly. No offence. ;-p
> 
> 
> Touched a nerve, I see.
> 
> When people fly into flames at the slightest criticism of their
> 'baby', you know you pegged them right.

To use a comic book quote:

"That was a joke.  J-O-K-E?"

(Anyone know what that was from?  I do!)

Samy Merchi wrote:

> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>
>>>shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
> 
>>>>This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.
>>>
>>>Because I use the inspirations and enhancements? Can you elaborate
>>>how they slow down my progress?
>>
>>Because you find the items "useless." The enhancements are very
>>useful and I find critical to success when used right.
> 
> 
> Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
> right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
> significant an effect that I'd notice it.

It think that just proves his point.  If you use them right, then they'd 
have a noticeable impact.

> 

Samy Merchi wrote:

> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in 
> 
>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>
>>>shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
> 
>>>>You're joking. I've been playing for three days and I have three
>>>>level 10 characters. I barely put in 2-3 hours each day. I
>>>>literally go from level 1 to level 10 by playing from 7 pm to
>>>>about 9 pm, and then from 11 pm to about a little after midnight.
>>>
>>>I find that difficult to imagine. Do you solo or group?
>>
>>Mostly solo. Why is it difficult to imagine?
> 
> 
> Because after the first five or so levels, levels 6+ take me at *least* the 
> time you use each night to advance a *single* level.

That, I'd believe -- especially with hunting missions or getting XP by 
hunting.  VERY hard to do.


> 

Samy Merchi wrote:

> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
> 
> 
>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>trouble?
> 
> 
> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
> who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
> fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
> defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
> just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"

Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I actually 
have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for 
interfering where you weren't wanted.

In terms of game dynamic, what you are indeed doing is taking someone 
else's "kills", making it harder for them to gain experience and level 
up.  If the person can handle the group, leave them alone.  If they're 
in trouble, ask if you can help them out.

To put that back into RP terms, let's say that I'm out hunting the 
criminal element in order to learn how to use my powers and train myself 
up.  And you come along and stop me from doing that.  Do you expect me 
to be happy about that?

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
> 
> 
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong.
> 
> 
> Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
> something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
> all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
> words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
> different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
> life crowd".
> 
> First hint: there is no perfect game.
> 

First hint: Don't claim that someone says something when the quote you 
supply doesn't support it.

Second hint: People don't tend to bring up negatives when defending 
something they like against a hugely negative attack.  This does not 
make someone a fanboy

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>:
>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>
>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>
>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
>>>that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
>>>insulted for liking them?
>>
>>Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming interest as a
>>personal assault would the term be relevant.
> 
> 
> Which was the case here.
> 

Which WASN'T the case here.  The "no life" crowd is a good term to 
describe people with the time to pay 16 hours a day.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 12:25:58 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>
wrote:

>chainbreaker noone@nowhere.com wrote:

>> There are even more points of similarity, but this is enough to illustrate,
>> I think.
>> 
>> Again, thanks Samy.  :-)

>I don't know if you're intentionally trolling or you just can't
>read.
Oh, dear - so aggressive.

>Samy can't get past level 6. How would he know what its
>like to play at level 9?

Quote from Samy Merchi (Fri, 7 May 2004 00:10:16):
**
It took me 4+ hours to get from level 10.5 to level 11.
**

>If you don't believe me check his posts.
Right...

-- 
Regards
   Simon Nejmann

Memnoch wrote:

> On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:27:49 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>>about playing in-character.
> 
> 
> I'd put good money on the majority of those people being young American
> instant gratification junkies. Used to see that in SWG a lot when hunting,
> even so far as to have someone repeatedly challenge me cause I killed a
> Womprat that he was about to target. It was funny to annoy that idiot though
> so I hung around a bit sniping with my lightning gun! ;-)

I do the same thing (not the challenge, but the upset at someone killing 
something in a group I was attacking) because enemies are hard to find 
in this game and when I'm hunting or fulfilling a mission it's really 
annoying for you to take it away and make me look for another one.

Not instant gratification.  Just gratification [grin].

Memnoch wrote:

> On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:20:18 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>
>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>>>
>>>
>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>>trouble?
>>>
>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>>>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>>>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>>>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>>>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>>>
>>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>>>about playing in-character.
>>
>>Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>>stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
>>a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
>>automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
>>they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.
>>
>>If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>>you too.
> 
> 
> And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
> just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
> don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 

My reply to someone who took one of my kills was "Leave my kills alone", 
followed by my running off.

Samy Merchi wrote:

> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> 
> 
>>these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
>>hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
>>much fun it is.
> 
> 
> I actually got the jewel-cave-CoT mission, and tried to do it differently. 
> I more or less snuck past all enemies (and ran away from all that spotted 
> me) until I found the jewel. Then, all the way back, the same way. But I 
> couldn't get the mission completed unless I went and killed all of the 
> enemies, even though I'd gotten the jewel. Basically, the game forced me to 
> kill all the enemies to complete the mission.
> 
> I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all enemies.
> 

Yes, because all of them say "Arrest the criminals".

I've heard there are other ones later that do that, but am not certain.

mr bernard langham wrote:

> Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
> 
>>Hey, buddy, did you read my impression?  Since I started out by saying
>>"Where's the magic?" I fail to see how you can say that all I said was
>>"It rocks".
> 
> 
> Didn't see it, sorry. What was the subject?

I believe it was "Another CoH Impression".  I'd be more detailed, but I 
do have to go to work [grin].

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>> shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>
>>>> This is why you're not getting very far in the game methinks.
>>> 
>>> Because I use the inspirations and enhancements? Can you elaborate
>>> how they slow down my progress?
>> 
>> Because you find the items "useless." The enhancements are very
>> useful and I find critical to success when used right.
>
>Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>significant an effect that I'd notice it.

Then you can't blame the game for your uselessness since those
enhancements were created to enhance your powers and therefore your
effectiveness. Your ineptitude is solely a result of your choices not
the game.

chainbreaker wrote:
> Nostromo wrote:
> 
>>>So if I buy a game like COH, play it for a month (the tme that comes
>>>with the game purchase) and then stop playing. How is that any
>>>different then me buying Sacred and playing it for a month?
>>
>>Excellent & obvious conclusion, one I made a few threads ago in light
>>of the detractors of CoH on the basis of longevity, but didn't have
>>the energy to argue...;-)
> 
> 
> That only makes sense if you don't expect to play anything you get longer
> than a month, and that that's good value for your time and money.
> 
> If a month is all something's worth fooling with, I'd just as soon leave it
> on the shelf and read a good book instead.
> 
> I think the last thing I bought knowing I'd get a month or less from it was
> Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the Pulsating
> Pectorals!
> 

I'm not sure what games you have been playing for the last 3-4 years. 
But most of the ones I have don't last longer then a month and that is 
with me finishing them. KOTOR lasted 2 weeks, HOTU 4 days, TOEE 2 weeks 
(of hell I might add).

Games like BG2 with 200 hours of gameplay don't exist anymore. I guess 
if you don't game everyday or only give it 4-5 hours a week then perhaps 
the above titles will last longer.

So although I respect your opinion, I just don't understand what games 
you're playing that are lasting that long.

Dan S wrote:
> So although I respect your opinion, I just don't understand what games
> you're playing that are lasting that long.

Not many.  I can't/won't saturate myself in a title the way I once did, so I
get a bit more mileage from some titles than others might.

So--KotOR, NWN/xp's, Port Royale, Jagged Alliance 2/addon/sequel (although
that's not exactly new), and D2 of course.  I think Pirates of the Caribbean
*might* be good for more than a month, if I could ever get started and keep
from becoming distracted.  :-)

I've bit on Halo, ToEE, Lionheart and a couple more and been left with
little more than a bad taste, certainly not a month's playtime, quality or
otherwise.

If the time ever comes when all I can *expect* for my money is less than a
month of playtime, I'll put a 20-year hobby/passion to rest, because I don't
chase "fads"--and that's all anything that's only able to stick around a
month before running it's course could possibly be.
-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

> I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all enemies.

I got one yesterday.  It was find crate number 777 in a warehouse. 
There were lots of glowing crates.  I only killed a few nazi's before
I found the right one.

But, I did stay and kill all the nazi's and searched all the other
crates (worth 5 exp per crate searched).  My character is only level 5
so maybe it changes (and you have to kill everything) in the higher
levels.

Memnoch wrote:
> On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:24:32 -0500, "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ben Sisson wrote:
>>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under
>>> the name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>> from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something
>> they are called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't
>> understand the logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the
>> basis of liking something, as if the act of liking it is somehow
>> wrong. Are you suggesting that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there
>> any games you like? Should you be insulted for liking them?
>
> Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming
> interest as a personal assault would the term be relevant.

But if the person laces their criticism with personal assaults then it's
justified. Even if someone alludes to personal insults then it's no longer a
matter of taking criticism of his gaming interest as assault, it's taking
personal criticism of he himself as assault, which is completely justified.
given that that is the norm on usenet, it's almost impossible to tell which
is which.

Ben Sisson wrote:
> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
>
>> Ben Sisson wrote:
>>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under
>>> the name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>> from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something
>> they are called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't
>> understand the logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the
>> basis of liking something, as if the act of liking it is somehow
>> wrong.
>
> Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
> something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
> all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
> words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
> different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
> life crowd".

Where did he do that? When/where has *anyone* done that? People  use the
term to insult someone they disagree with, it's never used as you claim.
Someone who only lists the positive aspects of a game is probably responding
to a list of negative remarks about the game.

mr bernard langham wrote:
> Holden wrote:
>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless.
>
> Actually, it has a quite specific meaning, but is often misapplied. It
> refers to the "true believers", often seen on MMORPG forums, who no
> matter how incredibly fucked up a developer's actions may be, can be
> relied upon to leap rabidly, tiresomely, and predictably to their
> defense. "Fanboys" have a religious calling. No amount of logic or
> adversity can shake their faith, once they've seen the light, and
> they have an evangelical fervour to spread "the word". They are as
> unwelcome as door-to-door seventh day adventists--even to peole who
> like the game in question.
>
> Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.

Complete and total BS. If someone likes the game, they like the game. You
may not agree, but you have no justification for claiming that they are not
allowed to like something that you don't like.

Nostromo wrote:
> Thus spake "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com>, Fri, 7
> May 2004 15:01:17 +0800, Anno Domini:
>
>> Holden wrote:
>>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless.
>>
>> Actually, it has a quite specific meaning, but is often misapplied.
>> It refers to the "true believers", often seen on MMORPG forums, who
>> no matter how incredibly fucked up a developer's actions may be, can
>> be relied upon to leap rabidly, tiresomely, and predictably to their
>> defense. "Fanboys" have a religious calling. No amount of logic or
>> adversity can shake their faith, once they've seen the light, and
>> they have an evangelical fervour to spread "the word". They are as
>> unwelcome as door-to-door seventh day adventists--even to peole who
>> like the game in question.
>
> Oh dear, now we're even blaming religion for nolife mmog players'
> antics? (or at least using it as a -ve reference comparison)
>
>> Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.
>
> Though all fanboys do like 'the game', to be logically accurate,
> whereas if you like the game you are not *necessarily* a fanboy. But
> you may be a fan. Which makes you half a fan-boy. And half a
> religious zealot, is well, like a Catholic I guess? So, my conclusion
> is, if you are a fanboy, you are a Hari Krishna, but if you are just
> a fan you are Catholic. And, to complete the metaphor, if you are a
> boy, then you are a Protestant. Here endeth formal UseNet logic
> lesson 101. Have a nice day! >8^D

See? I told you it's meaningless :)

Samy Merchi wrote:
> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> news:x5omc.32665
>
>> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get
>> in trouble?
>
> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
> people who help out other people in this game. In real life or
> comics, if you were fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy
> showed up and helped you defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile,
> "Thanks for the help." Here it's just "j00 stupid n00b these were my
> kills!"
>
> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
> than about playing in-character.

They'd be thanked if they needed the help. If someone comes along and just
jumps in a fight when the hero is already clearly got it under control, then
they wouldn't be so appreciative. Some heroes might be ok with it, some
might not like someone else stealing their glory...just like players.

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:5tJmc.44826
> Samy Merchi wrote:

Re: Enhancements

>> Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>> right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>> significant an effect that I'd notice it.

> It think that just proves his point.  If you use them right, then they'd 
> have a noticeable impact.

How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for example? Do 
you actually get a stopwatch and time how long it takes you to get from 
place A to place B?

How are you supposed to notice an increase in accuracy? Do you collect 
statistics on how many times you hit vs how many times you miss, and 
compare the percentages vs each other?

How are you supposed to notice an increase in hold duration? Again, do you 
stopwatch it?

I remain unconvinced that CoH allows one to notice how their enhancements 
work, even when one is using them right.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows wrote:
> mr bernard langham notactually@spammenot.com wrote:
>> shadows wrote:
>>
>>>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp
>>>> more than about playing in-character.
>>>
>>> Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>>> stealing kills.
>>> If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>>> you too.
>>
>> No, no, he *does* get MMORPGs. He said "99% of the players care more
>> about 20xp than playing in character". How is that not "getting"
>> MMORPGS?
>>
>> That he bemoans the fact, and probably wishes MMORPG weren't all just
>> progressquest in disguise (where there's nothing to do BUT level your
>> character, so the process becomes all-important) doesn't mean that he
>> doesn't "get" the process.
>
> I don't know of a single MMORPG except maybe UO where you had
> actual roleplaying. MMORPGs are hack'n'slash 99% of the time. Get
> with the program.

MMORPGS are what you make them. If you hack n slash, they are hack n slash
games. Some of us roleplay, and it really is a roleplaying game then.

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> Samy Merchi wrote:

>> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>> people who help out other people in this game.

> Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I
> actually have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for
> interfering where you weren't wanted.

Very true. The lack of PvP must be very frustrating to some players.

Still, though, in comics at least, such high-strung obsessive characters 
are a minority by far. The vast majority of heroes wouldn't flip over 
getting some help.

> In terms of game dynamic, what you are indeed doing is taking someone 
> else's "kills", making it harder for them to gain experience and level
> up.

Yeah but certainly gaining experience and levelling up isn't the most 
important thing about this game, surely?? Interaction between the 
characters must be more important than that, right??


> If the person can handle the group, leave them alone.  If they're
> in trouble, ask if you can help them out.

If they're in trouble, they're not going to have the time to switch from 
fighting to chitchatting with me.

> To put that back into RP terms, let's say that I'm out hunting the 
> criminal element in order to learn how to use my powers and train
> myself up.  And you come along and stop me from doing that.  Do you
> expect me to be happy about that?

I wouldn't expect you to mind, because one battle isn't going to matter 
one whit in the long run of things. Which is indeed very well reflected 
on an OOC level by the fact that you get like 5-20xp per win when you 
need several thousands to level, if not more. Missing out on a few wins 
certainly doesn't make one whit of difference. I can sort of see this 
argument working at levels 2-3 when you only need a couple hundred to 
level, but still.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> writes:
>
>> And I disagree with this. Adding accuracy to your powers
>> accomplishes the *exact* same affect as raising an attribute tied to
>> accuracy. You didn't actually state how it's different at all.
>
> Because adding an Accuracy enhancement only affects one of relatively
> few skills skill, while an "attribute tied to accuracy" in those
> stat-oriented games will be something that tricles down to many skills
> in some needlessly complicated manner. A set of statistics,
> interdependent skill sets and so forth lead to "flavor of the day"
> min-maxing number-juggling instead of actual gameplay, and you might
> just as well be playing Progressquest.

So you add accuracy to all the powers and viola!, now it's exactly the same.

And you can min/max attributes the same as power enhancements, there is no
difference there either.

> Think about it: Which was the more popular, the stat-heavy roleplaying
> games of SPI, BTRC and Tritac, or the far simpler ones from Steve
> Jackson Games and TSR?

How would I know? I'm a big fan PnP RPGs, but I don't profess to know which
is bigger....what does it matter anyway, this is a differnet media with
different rules.

> People don't necessarily WANT "Excel with 3D graphics" like Anarchy
> Online, they just haven't had any stat-light games to choose from
> until ToonTown and it's grown-up cousin City of Heroes arrived.

How do you know what people want? I imagine some want it, some don't. What
difference does it make?

>> And most of them boil down to "go here, kill x" or "go here, talk to
>> y". You can give them a bunch of different labels but they are the
>> same thing.
>
> But CoH (and FFXI) missions/quests are story-driven. Anarchy Online
> (which I love) generally has "exp grind" quests whose only purpose is
> to make you a higher level character.

And what does this have to do with CoH? All of CoH's missions are
story-driven as well.

>> Not true at all. When you kill something, you get both items and
>> cash. The items are called enhancements and the cash is called
>> influence and they are both automatically added to your inventory.
>> Other than that, it is the same as the loot in any other game.
>
> Except you don't juggle precious armor slots and backpacks and item
> sets and NODROP and UNIQUE flags and all the other MANAGEMENT stuff
> that makes a game more like a chore than entertainment.

No, you juggle enhancement slots and your inventory of enhancements. there's
not much difference there.

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

> I don't know of a single MMORPG except maybe UO where you had
> actual roleplaying. MMORPGs are hack'n'slash 99% of the time. Get
> with the program.

Then don't use the letters 'RP' in the name of the game.

Thank you.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Samy Merchi wrote:
> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
>
>> Aye,  equal level SO enhancements add roughly 33% to your powers, so
>> 6 slots with 6 SOs = 300% effectiveness. That's hardly what I'd call
>> pointless.
>
> That is pretty impressive.
>
>> It sounds like this guy played the early game and is basing his
>> entire opinion only on that.
>
> Very much so.
>
>> The differences he noted at level 9 have no
>> bearing on how the game is at level 30.
>
> Shouldn't the game be fun at every level?
>
> I'm not exactly foreseeing having the *time* to get to level 30
> anytime soon.

There is a difference between the game being fun at lower levels and
enhancements being powerful at lower levels.Yes, the game can be fun at
every level...no, fun is not tied to how much of an impact enhancements
make.

ahab <ahab@mycomputer.com> wrote in news:8d4n90livfvhmku9tf649odhu4jruo6p71

>>Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>>right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>>significant an effect that I'd notice it.

> Then you can't blame the game for your uselessness since those
> enhancements were created to enhance your powers and therefore your
> effectiveness. Your ineptitude is solely a result of your choices not
> the game.

Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when I have 
six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take down a single 
foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.

For a character that has maxed out its main blasting ability to be unable 
to take down a street thug with one shot, is kind of sad.

It's not my choice. It's the game's.

(And before people leap to conclusions, yes, I've tried other combinations 
as well rather than just maxing out damage.)

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

pauls2272@yahoo.com (Paul Schneider) wrote in

>> I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all
>> enemies. 
> 
> I got one yesterday.  It was find crate number 777 in a warehouse. 
> There were lots of glowing crates.  I only killed a few nazi's before
> I found the right one.

Neat. :)

Glad to hear these kinds of missions exist. Thanks man.

You got the Mission Completed line as soon as you clicked on that one?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

mr bernard langham wrote:
> Holden wrote:
>> hehe, some people think it's a bit premature to base your decisions
>> on only one person's opinion, but I suppose there is a chance you
>> could get lucky and it might be correct. I suppose listening to one
>> or two people who don't like the game as opposed to the majority who
>> do might make sense in some way, to some people........I don't know
>> who they are, mind you, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
>> :)
>
> It may be the opinion of one person, but it's by far the most
> detailed, dispassionate, nuts-and-bolts description of the gameplay
> I've seen so far. Short of plonking down a non-refundable
> $US50--which I don't feel I should have to do, by the way, in case I
> find out I don't like the game and have to cancel my account--how
> else do you suggest I form an opinion?

Taking into account *everything* that has been said by it would be a good
start.

> Perhaps if the "majority of people who do like the game" would post
> similar, detailed accounts rather than simply stating "it rocks", I'd
> be able to take their glowing first-flush impressions more seriously.

There has been plenty of discussion about how much fun it is, much more so
than the few posts about how bad it is. Specific reasons why it is better
than a lot of other mmogs have been given in almost every thread about the
game so far.

> Indeed: According to the majority of gamers, I should *love*
> Counter-Strike. After all, 3,000,000 gamers can't be wrong, right?
> Well, I don't. Luckily, it's free, so I didn't have to pay money to
> discover that fact.

So did you learn that you didn't like it from listening to other people who
didn't like it? What prompted you to consider their opinions moreso than
those who did like it? Did you flip a coin and call all the likers "heads"
and all the haters "tails"? Did you just go with the minority opinion and if
so, does that mean you like all of the games that most people hate? (like
Britney's Dance Beat or the Olsen Twins game)

chainbreaker wrote:
> mr bernard langham wrote:
>> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
>> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
>> it is teh roxxor" superlatives. You've saved me from yet another
>> whack-a-mole grind with reskinned a_giant_rat_001's disguised as a
>> game. *bows*
>
> Likewise, I'm sure.  Much of what he describes sounds a lot like
> Sacred even, particularly this:
>
> "Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor
> tweaking. There's a lot of duplication and redundancy around, with
> different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny
> changes."

That's not even close to being true though. Granted, there are variations of
common powers, but each variation accomplishes a different goal, none of
them are redundant at all.

> "In short, while the numbers may increase in the background (and they
> stay largely hidden so you might not even notice this) you end up
> spending
> just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1 as you do at
> level 9. That's kind of sad."

Yea, two hits (literally, that's all it takes my scrapper to drop the
average mob at level 5). How horrible is that? If I'm not one-shotting
everything I meet at level 40, then the game blows! :)

"mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in

> Instancing, for Explorers, is bad news. If most of CoH consists of 
> identical, theme-textured, instanced warehouses (I'm not saying that
> it does--indeed, I can't, because nobody's really addressed this issue
> in reviews), then I'm not going to stay interested in the game for
> very long. 

I think Explorers still have a decent amount to do in CoH, at least for a 
couple of weeks (which might well be worth $50 for some players -- I know 
it is to me). Door missions (indoor maps) are, admittedly, very redundant 
and repetitive, and no pleasure for an Explorer at all. I personally 
avoid Door mission like the plague when I'm soloing, for multiple reasons 
that I'm not going into right now. But the outdoors is where it's at for 
an Explorer. From going to roost at the top of the city's highest 
building, or flying up to the zeppelin in the sky, or landing on the top 
of a huge statue, or swimming in Prometheus park, there's a lot of cool 
stuff for an Explorer to do. I only feel like I've gotten fairly 
comfortable with three, maybe four zones of the game so far (I think 
there are about a dozen different zones, and I believe more are about to 
be added). I've particularly got a hankering to go explore some of the 
zones with large bodies of water in them, but I think I'll wait until I 
have Flying first.

There is some degree of redundancy even in the outdoors city zone maps. 
The Gish in King's Row, for example, consists of basically the same 
building planted over and over, but with minor variations (number of 
stories, whether there is a fire escape, most notably). But that's okay 
for me because I don't expect every single building to be distinct -- 
there has to be a lot of duplication to cut down drastically on data 
size. As long as there are some distinct landmarks amidst the cookie-
cutter buildings, I'm pretty happy exploring a zone. I still remember the 
feeling of elation when I started realizing in Atlas Park that it was the 
exact same building I kept seeing from different parts of the city, that 
really high-ass building with a needle at its top, almost Empire State 
Building -like. That it wasn't just a random skyline element that kept 
reappearing in multiple places, but it was that distinct same building 
that I kept seeing from various parts of the city, and could travel over 
to if I wanted to.

It should also be noted that the different zones tend to have different 
feels to them, and the architecture is different. King's Row is fairly 
run-down, an industrial area with lots of power lines, warehouses, low-
rent tenement buildings, wire fences and concrete aqueducts, while you 
don't see any of those at all, really, in Atlas Park, for example. Skyway 
City's got a kind of a Los Angeles vibe to it, with all of those multi-
leveled road ramps going this way and that. Perez Park is basically a 
huge forest. Atlas Park, Galaxy City and Steel Canyon, sadly, replicate 
each others' feel a lot, with a high-rent US major city 'downtown' feel, 
with high-rent tall office buildings, green parks, huge statues of 
heroes, and a fairly clean feel to them, compared to, say, King's Row. I 
would've liked to see more separation between these three zones in feel.

As with all games, it's all in how much time you want for your buck. If 
you're an Explorer type, I would anticipate getting at least a few weeks 
out of exploring CoH. That's enough for me.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in message news:<6HJmc.44836$3Q4.1122947@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
> > shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> > 
> > 
> >>these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
> >>hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
> >>much fun it is.
> > 
> > 
> > I actually got the jewel-cave-CoT mission, and tried to do it differently. 
> > I more or less snuck past all enemies (and ran away from all that spotted 
> > me) until I found the jewel. Then, all the way back, the same way. But I 
> > couldn't get the mission completed unless I went and killed all of the 
> > enemies, even though I'd gotten the jewel. Basically, the game forced me to 
> > kill all the enemies to complete the mission.
> > 
> > I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all enemies.
> > 
> 
> Yes, because all of them say "Arrest the criminals".
> 
> I've heard there are other ones later that do that, but am not certain.

I was in beta for more than a month, and this is what you should know:
 - Arrest all criminal missions require you to get everyone in the
mission
 - Arrest Joe and his band requires you to beat the boss and the
villains around him (sometimes it's not too clear which villains are
around him as they wander a bit or can go run around when hurt)
 - Recover an artifact or get information missions mean normally just
getting the artifact or info, but many times when you do that, it
changes to beat the boss and his minions (if you read the clue that
you get, you see why)
 - Free 9 hostages only require to beat the villains that are near the
hostage, if there are 30 outside and inside a room are 3 villains with
a hostage, you only have to beat those 3 villains
 - Rescue Joe missions require you to beat the villains around Joe. 
My controller with almost no offensive powers could handle all these
missions with her invisibility, passing through red and orange
villains, only to find Joe with 3 whites around him.  Beat those 3,
mission's over

Samy Merchi wrote:
> ahab <ahab@mycomputer.com> wrote in
> news:8d4n90livfvhmku9tf649odhu4jruo6p71
>
>>> Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using
>>> them right, though. It just means that using them right does not
>>> have so significant an effect that I'd notice it.
>
>> Then you can't blame the game for your uselessness since those
>> enhancements were created to enhance your powers and therefore your
>> effectiveness. Your ineptitude is solely a result of your choices not
>> the game.
>
> Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when
> I have six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take
> down a single foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.
>
> For a character that has maxed out its main blasting ability to be
> unable to take down a street thug with one shot, is kind of sad.
>
> It's not my choice. It's the game's.
>
> (And before people leap to conclusions, yes, I've tried other
> combinations as well rather than just maxing out damage.)

First off, balancing the game so that you can't one-shot the majority of the
enemies is hardly a bad thing. Secondly, I don't beleive you when you say
you can't do it. Max out dmg enhancements and get some inspirations and you
won't have any problems one-shotting weak mobs.

The fact that you claim it's impossible just strengthens the argument that
you don't know what you are doing.

Samy Merchi wrote:
> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> news:5tJmc.44826
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
>
> Re: Enhancements
>
>>> Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using
>>> them right, though. It just means that using them right does not
>>> have so significant an effect that I'd notice it.
>
>> It think that just proves his point.  If you use them right, then
>> they'd have a noticeable impact.
>
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for
> example? Do you actually get a stopwatch and time how long it takes
> you to get from place A to place B?
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in accuracy? Do you collect
> statistics on how many times you hit vs how many times you miss, and
> compare the percentages vs each other?
>
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in hold duration? Again,
> do you stopwatch it?
>
> I remain unconvinced that CoH allows one to notice how their
> enhancements work, even when one is using them right.


The early enhancements only give you a roughly 8% boost, so it's harder to
see the effect unless you pay attention. The higher level enhancements give
you 33%, and there is absolutely no way in hell you won't notice them.

Once again, the fact that you don't know this strengthens the argument that
you simply don't know how to play the game.

Holden wrote:
> There has been plenty of discussion about how much fun it is, much
> more so than the few posts about how bad it is. Specific reasons why
> it is better than a lot of other mmogs have been given in almost
> every thread about the game so far.
>

Sometimes a few specific negative points are enough to override a ton of
good points, if you feel strongly enough about them.  The converse can also
be true, of course, but in this instance for me it isn't.
-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

Holden wrote:
> Yea, two hits (literally, that's all it takes my scrapper to drop the
> average mob at level 5). How horrible is that? If I'm not one-shotting
> everything I meet at level 40, then the game blows! :)

Methinks you miss the point.  He wasn't complaining about how *much* effort
it takes (or how little, either, for that matter), but rather that the game
"feels" the same regardless of level.  Scaled difficulty eventually gives
you the feeling that you're just doing a lot of wheelspinning.

Sacred suffers from the exact thing.

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi wrote:

>> How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for
>> example?

> Once again, the fact that you don't know this strengthens the argument
> that you simply don't know how to play the game.

Tell me exactly how I'm failing to play the game? I'm putting enhancements 
where they go, I'm using the powers having the enhancements -- what exactly 
am I missing here?

What I *don't* know is how to tell whether the enhancements are having any 
*effect*. Not knowing that does not equate to not knowing how to play the 
game.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:58:41 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:

>Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
>
>> Yeah. Saw some screenshots of people flying and it does look fun, gimmick or
>> not. Still, it does amuse me no end when I hear of some people here wanting to
>> rush through the levels quickly and then others doubting its longevity......
>
>Flying and hovering is not a gimmick. You get defense bonuses and
>avoid some nasty ground stuff. Also if the villan cannot fly he
>can't do melee unless you fly low. There are other strategic
>considerations like avoiding kamikazi style minions.
>
>A lot of Blasters will fly up and hover while firing shots down.
>
>And yeah you can melee fight while flying, especially with other
>villans that fly :)

Now that sounds like fun. So even if you only have hover you can hover up away
from melee attacks and rain damage down from safety? Apart from ranged combat
of course. Looking at some screenies and movies I was looking at the scenery
and thinking of ways where I could jump on top of something like a lampost
where I could not be got at yet able to hit back.

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in news:2g1rm1F3n7vpU1@uni-berlin.de:
> Samy Merchi wrote:

>> Shouldn't the game be fun at every level?

> There is a difference between the game being fun at lower levels and
> enhancements being powerful at lower levels.

So if enhancements aren't powerful at lower levels, what's the point to 
using them?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

On Fri, 07 May 2004 21:33:53 +1000, Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:

>Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Thu, 06 May
>2004 23:35:08 +0100, Anno Domini:
>
>>On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:22:40 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
>>
>>>Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>>>
>>>> Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
>>>
>>>I would read that.
>>
>>I'd just look at the pictures.
>
>And that's all? ...

Well obviously it would have to be conveniently sized so you can hold it with
one hand.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:59:59 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:

>Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
>
>> And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
>> just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
>> don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 
>
>There's a profanity filter in-game. Use it.

I don't care about the profanity personally. Was just making an observation.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:38:04 -0700, Allan C Cybulskie
<allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>
>
>Memnoch wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:20:18 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>>>trouble?
>>>>
>>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>>>>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>>>>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>>>>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>>>>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>>>>
>>>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>>>>about playing in-character.
>>>
>>>Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>>>stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
>>>a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
>>>automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
>>>they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.
>>>
>>>If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>>>you too.
>> 
>> 
>> And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
>> just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
>> don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 
>
>My reply to someone who took one of my kills was "Leave my kills alone", 
>followed by my running off.

That told him! He'll be thinking about that one all evening. :-)

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi wrote:

>> Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when
>> I have six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take
>> down a single foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.

> The fact that you claim it's impossible just strengthens the argument
> that you don't know what you are doing.

I'm targeting a foe, hitting the key for 'Ice Blast', and watching how much 
of the enemy's life bar goes away.

What else should I be doing?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

On Fri, 07 May 2004 21:46:22 +1000, Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:

>Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Thu, 06 May
>2004 23:39:29 +0100, Anno Domini:
>
>>I'd put good money on the majority of those people being young American
>>instant gratification junkies. Used to see that in SWG a lot when hunting,
>>even so far as to have someone repeatedly challenge me cause I killed a
>>Womprat that he was about to target. It was funny to annoy that idiot though
>>so I hung around a bit sniping with my lightning gun! ;-)
>
>He, he. Here's a fun mmorpg game to play: pick a victim, usually someone
>really buffed & full of themselves, with grade 3 spelling. Then follow them
>around. Do nothing, say nothing. Stick as close as possible, don't help with
>kills & keep a safe distance during melee. See how long it takes them to go
>over the edge. >;-)

PSYCHE! Childish but fun. If I spot someone with that all mouth and no
trousers atitude I may give it a go.

Samy Merchi wrote:
> What I *don't* know is how to tell whether the enhancements are
> having any
> *effect*. Not knowing that does not equate to not knowing how to play
> the game.


That also sounds like some of my Sacred gripes.

Did Ascaraon make CoH, too?  :-)

-- 
chainbreaker

If you need to email, then chainbreaker (naturally) at comcast dot
net--that's "net" not "com"--should do it.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:31:22 -0700, Allan C Cybulskie
<allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>
>
>Samy Merchi wrote:
>
>> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>> 
>> 
>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>trouble?
>> 
>> 
>> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>> who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>> fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>> defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>> just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>
>Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I actually 
>have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for 
>interfering where you weren't wanted.
>
>In terms of game dynamic, what you are indeed doing is taking someone 
>else's "kills", making it harder for them to gain experience and level 
>up.  If the person can handle the group, leave them alone.  If they're 
>in trouble, ask if you can help them out.
>
>To put that back into RP terms, let's say that I'm out hunting the 
>criminal element in order to learn how to use my powers and train myself 
>up.  And you come along and stop me from doing that.  Do you expect me 
>to be happy about that?

I used to do that in DaOC. I used to get a lot of satisfaction from hanging
around near fields killing stuff, as you do, and watching out for others. If
one goes into headlong flight away from the enemy I'd watch their health. If
it looked like they were going to die I would step in and draw agro away from
them. Great way to make friends and a name for yourself.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:01:14 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:

>Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:16:48 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
>> 
>>>"Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov> wrote in
>>>> "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>> An all-too plausible, rigorous and detailed critique of the actual
>>>>> gameplay and quest system, free of starry-eyed fanboy "new shiny/omg
>>>
>>>> Except that he's not describing the game that I'm playing. ;-) I think
>>>> it's probably because he's relying on experiences from characters
>>>> level 1 through 7 or so. Doesn't sound like he's encountered the more
>>>> challenging environments yet.
>>>
>>>With all due respect, Bob, I seriously doubt that the vast majority of the 
>>>things I criticized will change at higher levels. Also, I think you've 
>>>misread most of my criticism if you think that 'more challenging' will fix 
>>>the things I had issues with.
>> 
>> I think you are probably right on this one. Even at 40-50 you will probably be
>> doing exactly the same things except the enemies will look different. If you
>> peer beneath the veneer of almost any game it ends being "Go to point A, kill
>> B"
>
>Memnoch why don't you actually PLAY the game instead of make
>these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
>hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
>much fun it is.

I would love to but I am waiting for my copy to come in from Hong Kong. Can't
get it here in the UK yet. My point still stands about the faces changing but
it being the same old same old. The missions will liven things up a bit as you
suggest I am sure and am looking forward to it a lot.

On Fri, 7 May 2004 06:59:32 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:

>shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
>
>> these assumptions? Try recovering a jewel from a Circle of Thorns
>> hide out in a cave. Do it solo with stealth powers and see how
>> much fun it is.
>
>I actually got the jewel-cave-CoT mission, and tried to do it differently. 
>I more or less snuck past all enemies (and ran away from all that spotted 
>me) until I found the jewel. Then, all the way back, the same way. But I 
>couldn't get the mission completed unless I went and killed all of the 
>enemies, even though I'd gotten the jewel. Basically, the game forced me to 
>kill all the enemies to complete the mission.
>
>I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all enemies.

So was the mission objective just to get the jewel? If so then the devs should
reward people for being able to complete the mission in an alternative manner,
rather than wading in blasting everything in site.

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
> chainbreaker wrote:

>> "Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor
>> tweaking. There's a lot of duplication and redundancy around, with
>> different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny
>> changes."
> 
> That's not even close to being true though. Granted, there are
> variations of common powers, but each variation accomplishes a
> different goal, none of them are redundant at all.

I think it is fairly true, actually. If you don't consider it to be true, 
then you require less variety than I do.

Ice Blasting powers, Fire Blasting, Energy Blasting and Electricity 
Blasting are all basically the same except for their graphics. They don't 
develop in different directions, they all follow the same progression 
more or less -- each powerset gains the ability to 'Build Up', gets two 
bolt attacks, one higher-powered but slower recharging and the other 
lower-powered but faster recharging. All gain an immobilization beam, and 
so on. The differences in all the blasting powers basically amount to 
different graphics.

Same thing with the Element Controlling powers. Whether you're a Fire 
Controller, Ice Controller, Earth Controller, you basically have the same 
powerset except for different graphics.

Ultimately, what it comes down to is, the *VAST* majority of powers in 
the game come down to three very basic archetypes:

* deal damage (either single target or area effect)
* immobilize (Hold, Disorient, Sleep, et al)
* buffs/debuffs (including increasing Health or Endurance)

Many, many powers combine two of these: for example, a punch that deals 
damage and debuffs your foe, or a blast that deals area damage and 
immobilizes.

I've found powers based on these three archetypes very uncompelling, 
which is why I always have a lot of trouble choosing what power I get 
when levelling up. Taking *more* blasting powers in my powerset, when I 
already *have* a blasting power, seems incredibly redundant.

("But Samy, you don't know how to *play the game*!" wah wah catch-all 
answer to everything people dislike me saying yet can't argue against.)

I'm really really looking forward to Flying and Superspeed though. Stuff 
whose major application is not just dreary combat, but rather being 
*cool* and living like a hero.

The two powers I'd most like to see CoH implement are size changing and 
underwater. Those are some pretty damn major archetypes. Although I'm not 
holding my breath with the former; it's always been a fairly massive 
problem implementing giant-size in a modern computer game due to the 
graphical requirements (different animations et al). But underwater could 
be *so* easily implemented.

While we're at it, it's asinine that you can't create a speedster from 
the beginning. You have to start off as, well, *anything* really, and 
work as a different kind of hero entirely until 14th level when you can 
have a speedster.

You can very much tell that when the designers did this game, they put 
the cart in front of the horse; they figured, what is the easiest to 
implement mechanically, and what kind of powers are the easiest to 
implement in a computer game, rather than trying to implement the most 
important archetypes in the superheroic genre. It makes the game feel 
very much like it's a MMORPG game before it's a genre game, rather than 
the genre being more important than the level grind.

>> you end up spending
>> just as long a time cutting down a single foe at level 1 as you do at
>> level 9. That's kind of sad."

> Yea, two hits (literally, that's all it takes my scrapper to drop the
> average mob at level 5). How horrible is that? If I'm not one-shotting
> everything I meet at level 40, then the game blows! :)

You're talking beside the point. The topic is not the number of hits 
required; the topic is that the amount of hits required stays more or 
less constant from level to level.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

wolfing1@yahoo.com (Rod) wrote in

>  - Rescue Joe missions require you to beat the villains around Joe. 
> My controller with almost no offensive powers could handle all these
> missions with her invisibility, passing through red and orange
> villains, only to find Joe with 3 whites around him.  Beat those 3,
> mission's over

That's pretty nice, Joe. Glad to hear this!

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in

>>And yeah you can melee fight while flying, especially with other
>>villans that fly :)

> Now that sounds like fun.

It's awesome fun. It's one of those things that make your jaw drop when it 
happens to you the first time, you go like, "Holy crap they IMPLEMENTED 
this? OMG!"

A staple of the superhero genre, really. One of the many things they did 
right.

> So even if you only have hover you can hover
> up away from melee attacks and rain damage down from safety? Apart
> from ranged combat of course.

Both good news and bad.

Good news: yes.

Bad news: practically EVERYTHING has a potent ranged attack, so you're not 
really escaping any damage this way.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in
> On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:38:04 -0700, Allan C Cybulskie

>>My reply to someone who took one of my kills was "Leave my kills
>>alone", followed by my running off.

> That told him! He'll be thinking about that one all evening. :-)

LOL! :)

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in

> So was the mission objective just to get the jewel? If so then the
> devs should reward people for being able to complete the mission in an
> alternative manner, rather than wading in blasting everything in site.

I believe the objective was originally to get the jewel, but when I got it, 
it changed to 'defeat all CoT in cave'. I had to run around for a long time 
beating up on everyone before I got the Mission Completed text. :(

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> writes:

> How do you know what people want? I imagine some want it, some don't. What
> difference does it make?

That's not arguing, just an attempt at neutralizing my arguments when
you don't have anything of substance to counter them with. I win!

> And what does this have to do with CoH? All of CoH's missions are
> story-driven as well.

Er, yes, that was what I wrote. CoH and FFXI have story-driven
missions, AO doesn't.

> No, you juggle enhancement slots and your inventory of enhancements. there's
> not much difference there.

I see you have never played a stat-/inventory-heavy MMORPG.

Dan S dan@work.com wrote:

> So although I respect your opinion, I just don't understand what games 
> you're playing that are lasting that long.

Typically newer MMORPGs will have free content updated every
month. The "Asheron's Call" franchise had this. The story arc
slowly progresses and the players are supposed to have an affect
on it. Talk to any AC1 player and you'll see what I mean.

AC2 is a different story. It was crap.

So yes, there are games which will take you a year to really play
because during launch the entire story hasn't been told yet.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

> I remain unconvinced that CoH allows one to notice how their enhancements 
> work, even when one is using them right.

Try the damage enhancements. My AOE fire powers went from -1
every second to -10.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

> What I *don't* know is how to tell whether the enhancements are having any 
> *effect*. Not knowing that does not equate to not knowing how to play the 
> game.

Yes, Enhancements are red herrings. They have no effect. Go back
to your hole in the ground Samy.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
>>> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>>> people who help out other people in this game.
> 
>> Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I
>> actually have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for
>> interfering where you weren't wanted.
> 
> Very true. The lack of PvP must be very frustrating to some players.
> 
> Still, though, in comics at least, such high-strung obsessive characters 
> are a minority by far. The vast majority of heroes wouldn't flip over 
> getting some help.

Samy. We're not Superheroes. We're just PRETENDING to be
Superheroes in an on-line game. Therefore when your cromagnon ass
steals my kills I will complain and report you. That's where my
pretending stops and that's where your kill stealing ass gets
banned.

> Yeah but certainly gaining experience and levelling up isn't the most 
> important thing about this game, surely?? Interaction between the 
> characters must be more important than that, right??

Who are you to say? Please check the Bartle paper on this very
question.


> If they're in trouble, they're not going to have the time to switch from 
> fighting to chitchatting with me.

There's an emote to shout "Help!" I've used it to get help. If
you cannot be bothered to interact with other players don't
expect them to be nice to you when you steal the kills they've
been hunting all day.

Samy is a buffoon.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> ahab <ahab@mycomputer.com> wrote in news:8d4n90livfvhmku9tf649odhu4jruo6p71
> 
>>>Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>>>right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>>>significant an effect that I'd notice it.
> 
>> Then you can't blame the game for your uselessness since those
>> enhancements were created to enhance your powers and therefore your
>> effectiveness. Your ineptitude is solely a result of your choices not
>> the game.
> 
> Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when I have 
> six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take down a single 
> foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.

Samy you're an idiot. That's why you cannot do this. It's not the
game. It's you.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
>>> Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when
>>> I have six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take
>>> down a single foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.
> 
>> The fact that you claim it's impossible just strengthens the argument
>> that you don't know what you are doing.
> 
> I'm targeting a foe, hitting the key for 'Ice Blast', and watching how much 
> of the enemy's life bar goes away.
> 
> What else should I be doing?

Oh boy:

* Watching how much endurance you lose, and maximazing endurance
  loss versus damage output.

* Buffing your defenses up with defense enhancements. Watch what
  kind of damage they do and defend against it.

* Use inspirations to buff attack and defense. Stock up on health
  and endurance inspirations too for bosses.

Yada yada.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in news:2g1rm1F3n7vpU1@uni-berlin.de:
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
>>> Shouldn't the game be fun at every level?
> 
>> There is a difference between the game being fun at lower levels and
>> enhancements being powerful at lower levels.
> 
> So if enhancements aren't powerful at lower levels, what's the point to 
> using them?

The point is that you can cheaply upgrade them slowly over time
instead of paying a lot of influence to buy them all at once.

The point is at level 5 you need all the help you can get.

The point is an enhanced level 5 hero can beat a villan at level
5 more easily.

The point is Samy you're supposed to use your brain.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Holden wrote:

>> Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.
>
> Complete and total BS. If someone likes the game, they like the game.
> You may not agree, but you have no justification for claiming that
> they are not allowed to like something that you don't like.

Oh dear. Plonk.

That'll cut the Deus Ex Invisible War, Thief III and CoH threads by at least 
half, I should think.
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Samy Merchi wrote:
> "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in
>
>> Instancing, for Explorers, is bad news. If most of CoH consists of
>> identical, theme-textured, instanced warehouses (I'm not saying that
>> it does--indeed, I can't, because nobody's really addressed this
>> issue in reviews), then I'm not going to stay interested in the game
>> for very long.
>
[snip]
> As with all games, it's all in how much time you want for your buck.
> If you're an Explorer type, I would anticipate getting at least a few
> weeks out of exploring CoH. That's enough for me.

Thanks Samy--another very useful summary. Interesting.

(Somewhat tempted)
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:

> Now that sounds like fun. So even if you only have hover you can hover up away
> from melee attacks and rain damage down from safety? 

Yes. In fact there are two defensive fly powers. Hover and
fly. Hover is slow but you don't suffer accuracy penalties and
get a defense buff. When you fly you move fast but aren't as
accurate.

My blaster always flies up, does her battle cry ("BURN IN
HELLFIRE!!!") and starts lobbing fireballs and casting down AoE
fire powers.

> Apart from ranged combat
> of course. Looking at some screenies and movies I was looking at the scenery
> and thinking of ways where I could jump on top of something like a lampost
> where I could not be got at yet able to hit back.

Well almost all villians have guns or some sort of ranged
attack. For a blaster you have no melee defense (at least mine
doesn't) so if I can get them to shoot at me instead of melee
with me it helps.

Here's two screenshots:

http://images.whitefang.com/album/city/tn/30.jpg.html
http://images.whitefang.com/album/city/tn/31.jpg.html

Both have the Blaster hovering. Tough to tell with just one shot
when you have no perspective. I could get better screenshots with
the "Rain of Fire" power which is awesome.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

> Bad news: practically EVERYTHING has a potent ranged attack, so you're not 
> really escaping any damage this way.

Again, Samy is such a tool he doesn't realize "Hover" is also a
defensive buff which he can enhance.


-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

Samy Merchi wrote:

> I believe the objective was originally to get the jewel, but when I
> got it, it changed to 'defeat all CoT in cave'. I had to run around
> for a long time beating up on everyone before I got the Mission
> Completed text. :(

That is quite disappointing. Still, I don't see anything structural which 
would stop the devs supporting "stealth" missions of this kind in the future 
(except for the fact that most players would probably rather have the 
experience for fighting the mobs).
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

shadows wrote:
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>
>> Bad news: practically EVERYTHING has a potent ranged attack, so
>> you're not really escaping any damage this way.
>
> Again, Samy is such a tool he doesn't realize "Hover" is also a
> defensive buff which he can enhance.

Is there some deep emotional need you're servicing here by insulting people 
in this uncalled for fashion? Just wondering.

Plonk.
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

On Fri, 07 May 2004 19:20:05 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:

>Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
>
>> Now that sounds like fun. So even if you only have hover you can hover up away
>> from melee attacks and rain damage down from safety? 
>
>Yes. In fact there are two defensive fly powers. Hover and
>fly. Hover is slow but you don't suffer accuracy penalties and
>get a defense buff. When you fly you move fast but aren't as
>accurate.
>
>My blaster always flies up, does her battle cry ("BURN IN
>HELLFIRE!!!") and starts lobbing fireballs and casting down AoE
>fire powers.
>
>> Apart from ranged combat
>> of course. Looking at some screenies and movies I was looking at the scenery
>> and thinking of ways where I could jump on top of something like a lampost
>> where I could not be got at yet able to hit back.
>
>Well almost all villians have guns or some sort of ranged
>attack. For a blaster you have no melee defense (at least mine
>doesn't) so if I can get them to shoot at me instead of melee
>with me it helps.
>
>Here's two screenshots:
>
>http://images.whitefang.com/album/city/tn/30.jpg.html
>http://images.whitefang.com/album/city/tn/31.jpg.html
>
>Both have the Blaster hovering. Tough to tell with just one shot
>when you have no perspective. I could get better screenshots with
>the "Rain of Fire" power which is awesome.

Nice outfit that. The effects do look pretty impressive. I only hope my copy
turns up early next week on it long trip over on a junk from China! :-(

"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Samy Merchi wrote:
>> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
>> news:x5omc.32665
>>
>>> second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get
>>> in trouble?
>>
>> I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>> people who help out other people in this game. In real life or
>> comics, if you were fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy
>> showed up and helped you defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile,
>> "Thanks for the help." Here it's just "j00 stupid n00b these were my
>> kills!"
>>
>> It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
>> than about playing in-character.
>
>They'd be thanked if they needed the help. If someone comes along and just
>jumps in a fight when the hero is already clearly got it under control, then
>they wouldn't be so appreciative. Some heroes might be ok with it, some
>might not like someone else stealing their glory...just like players.

I have yet to have someone steal a kill.
I've had people stop an watch me fight something, and once or twice
someone hit them with a disorient or hold power making it easier to hit
them.

I've wandered past others who were fighting and done the same kind of
thing (well ok with the new character I can't stop something without
hurting it, but I can do random walk-by heals which seem to be
appreciated even by those that are only slightly wounded.)

I'm sure there are kill-stealing idiots out there, but so far i'm not
meeting them.  Hopefully I never will, but then since they can't steal
all the experience, it's not that big a deal to me.   
Though it could be annoying if you had a hit 10 of type x and that
person making the kill meant you didn't get credit even though you did
get exp.

Yelling at them or generally getting wound up about it would simply seem
to me to mean people would be more likely to harass you since they can.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:5tJmc.44826
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
>
>Re: Enhancements
>
>>> Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>>> right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>>> significant an effect that I'd notice it.
>
>> It think that just proves his point.  If you use them right, then they'd 
>> have a noticeable impact.
>
>How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for example? Do 
>you actually get a stopwatch and time how long it takes you to get from 
>place A to place B?

You don't need a stopwatch.   
The difference between hover with no speed increase and a 10 flight
speed increase is very noticeable.

>How are you supposed to notice an increase in accuracy? Do you collect 
>statistics on how many times you hit vs how many times you miss, and 
>compare the percentages vs each other?
>
>How are you supposed to notice an increase in hold duration? Again, do you 
>stopwatch it?
>
>I remain unconvinced that CoH allows one to notice how their enhancements 
>work, even when one is using them right.

Some things are going to be pretty hard to notice, speed, jump height,
flight speed are all pretty easy to see though.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>pauls2272@yahoo.com (Paul Schneider) wrote in
>
>>> I've yet to see a single mission where you didn't have to kill all
>>> enemies. 
>> 
>> I got one yesterday.  It was find crate number 777 in a warehouse. 
>> There were lots of glowing crates.  I only killed a few nazi's before
>> I found the right one.
>
>Neat. :)
>
>Glad to hear these kinds of missions exist. Thanks man.
>
>You got the Mission Completed line as soon as you clicked on that one?

It definitely happens.

Some of them are "defeat the gang and retrieve the stolen whatsit",
which require you to hunt down every last one" but others are simple
retrievals that complete when you find the item.

Which is nice since some of those areas are pretty big (Circle of thorns
caves) and it's a real pain to find every last goon.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> looked up from
reading the entrails of the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good,
the signs say:

>On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:58:41 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:
>
>>Memnoch memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah. Saw some screenshots of people flying and it does look fun, gimmick or
>>> not. Still, it does amuse me no end when I hear of some people here wanting to
>>> rush through the levels quickly and then others doubting its longevity......
>>
>>Flying and hovering is not a gimmick. You get defense bonuses and
>>avoid some nasty ground stuff. Also if the villan cannot fly he
>>can't do melee unless you fly low. There are other strategic
>>considerations like avoiding kamikazi style minions.
>>
>>A lot of Blasters will fly up and hover while firing shots down.
>>
>>And yeah you can melee fight while flying, especially with other
>>villans that fly :)
>
>Now that sounds like fun. So even if you only have hover you can hover up away
>from melee attacks and rain damage down from safety? Apart from ranged combat
>of course. Looking at some screenies and movies I was looking at the scenery
>and thinking of ways where I could jump on top of something like a lampost
>where I could not be got at yet able to hit back.

Most critters i've seen so far have some kind of ranged attack, so
simply being up on a height won't be enough.

There is however a neat little thing about hover;
If you're low enough when they run up to you, they swap to their melee
attack, and you then rise a little bit higher, you can sit safely out of
range while they still use their melee attack.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> looked up from reading the entrails of the
porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:

>"Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in news:2g1rm1F3n7vpU1@uni-berlin.de:
>> Samy Merchi wrote:
>
>>> Shouldn't the game be fun at every level?
>
>> There is a difference between the game being fun at lower levels and
>> enhancements being powerful at lower levels.
>
>So if enhancements aren't powerful at lower levels, what's the point to 
>using them?

Because even a small enhancement is better than nothing.

A level 1 endurance reduction will have an effect in the sprint power.
A level 2 makes sprint almost free.

Xocyll
-- 
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr

Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Fri, 7 May 2004 08:19:40
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>>> I think the last thing I bought knowing I'd get a month or less from
>>> it was Leisure Suit Larry 3: Passionate Patti in Pursuit of the
>>> Pulsating Pectorals!
>>
>> Why am I not surprised? ;-p
>
>Oh, come on--you expect me to believe that *you* never picked up a Leisure
>Suit Larry title?  :D

Only ever played 2 of them - the 2nd as a lunchtime thing at an old job with
a mate. The very first Larry I knocked off in a drunken w/e home alone
fiesta (along with SQ1 & 2) :-p

--
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Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Fri, 07 May
2004 18:41:39 +0100, Anno Domini:

>On Fri, 07 May 2004 21:33:53 +1000, Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote:
>
>>Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Thu, 06 May
>>2004 23:35:08 +0100, Anno Domini:
>>
>>>On Thu, 6 May 2004 17:22:40 +0000 (UTC), Samy Merchi <samy@iki.fi> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au> wrote in
>>>>
>>>>> Super-Villain Crack-Whore Weekly
>>>>
>>>>I would read that.
>>>
>>>I'd just look at the pictures.
>>
>>And that's all? ...
>
>Well obviously it would have to be conveniently sized so you can hold it with
>one hand.

I prefer no hands with a spacebar whack for next picture...but that's just
me (you really have to have an ergonomic workstation/keyb setup for that
though).

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Thus spake "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>, Fri, 7 May 2004 08:26:10
-0400, Anno Domini:

>Nostromo wrote:
>> He, he. Here's a fun mmorpg game to play: pick a victim, usually
>> someone really buffed & full of themselves, with grade 3 spelling.
>> Then follow them around. Do nothing, say nothing. Stick as close as
>> possible, don't help with kills & keep a safe distance during melee.
>> See how long it takes them to go over the edge. >;-)
>
>I put an aggravating-as-hell construction coworker of mine in the hospital
>once upon a time by doing just about that very thing for a shift.

You don't scare me CB. I had ya pegged for a truckie anyway! ;-p

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Thus spake Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>, Fri, 07 May
2004 18:51:32 +0100, Anno Domini:

>>He, he. Here's a fun mmorpg game to play: pick a victim, usually someone
>>really buffed & full of themselves, with grade 3 spelling. Then follow them
>>around. Do nothing, say nothing. Stick as close as possible, don't help with
>>kills & keep a safe distance during melee. See how long it takes them to go
>>over the edge. >;-)
>
>PSYCHE! Childish but fun. If I spot someone with that all mouth and no
>trousers atitude I may give it a go.

Let's create a Supergroup - we could surround the blowhards that way! Woo
hoo - new mmorpg quests!

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A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>:
>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>>
>>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
>>>>that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
>>>>insulted for liking them?
>>>
>>>Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming interest as a
>>>personal assault would the term be relevant.
>> 
>> Which was the case here.
>
>Which WASN'T the case here.  The "no life" crowd is a good term to 
>describe people with the time to pay 16 hours a day.

Alas (for you) the argument was made that if you criticized CoH for
*any* reason, you must be one of those people.

It was the case.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>
>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>
>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong.
>> 
>> 
>> Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>> something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>> all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
>> words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
>> different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
>> life crowd".
>> 
>> First hint: there is no perfect game.
>
>First hint: Don't claim that someone says something when the quote you 
>supply doesn't support it.

Repeated:

>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>from work for a little fun.

So much for that 'hint'.


>Second hint: People don't tend to bring up negatives when defending 
>something they like against a hugely negative attack.  This does not 
>make someone a fanboy

Calling everyone expressing negatives the "no-life crowd" does.

Telling someone who gave a dissenting opinion to "go outside, get a
life" does.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
>>
>>>>> I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>> assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>> like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>> to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>> from work for a little fun.
>>>>
>>>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>
>>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something
>>> they are called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't
>>> understand the logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the
>>> basis of liking something, as if the act of liking it is somehow
>>> wrong.
>>
>> Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>> something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>> all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
>> words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
>> different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
>> life crowd".
>
>Where did he do that? When/where has *anyone* done that? People  use the
>term to insult someone they disagree with, it's never used as you claim.

The absurdity of that response is legion. Welcome to usenet.


>Someone who only lists the positive aspects of a game is probably responding
>to a list of negative remarks about the game.

Someone who insults the poster because they had mentioned a negative
aspect about the game is something else.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com>:

>Nostromo wrote:
>
>> Oh dear, now we're even blaming religion for nolife mmog players'
>> antics? (or at least using it as a -ve reference comparison)
>
>It's interesting when fanboys implode. I've seen it happen. Months of 
>posting googly-eyed "true believer" stuff, "it'll be fixed in the next 
>patch, just you wait", "trust the developers, they know what they're doing", 
>"i want this game to succeed so badly i'm prepared to sacrifice my firstborn 
>to it", etc. Gradually (or suddenly, perhaps) reality wears them down. They 
>lose their religion, rage against the developer who "betrayed their trust" 
>in an explosion of monumentally bitter forum flames, and are never seen 
>again.
>
>One extreme to another. It's all terribly melodramatic.

That happens a lot more than we see here. It's absurdly common in
hyped games that flop like Horizons or Shadowbane. But since no one
here ever saw either of those in that light, we missed out. Go to the
right place, and you can see even ex-moderators for the games'
official forums doing that.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:

>mr bernard langham wrote:
>> Holden wrote:
>>> The term "fanboy" is meaningless.
>>
>> Actually, it has a quite specific meaning, but is often misapplied. It
>> refers to the "true believers", often seen on MMORPG forums, who no
>> matter how incredibly fucked up a developer's actions may be, can be
>> relied upon to leap rabidly, tiresomely, and predictably to their
>> defense. "Fanboys" have a religious calling. No amount of logic or
>> adversity can shake their faith, once they've seen the light, and
>> they have an evangelical fervour to spread "the word". They are as
>> unwelcome as door-to-door seventh day adventists--even to peole who
>> like the game in question.
>>
>> Liking a game, and being a fanboy, are two very different things.
>
>Complete and total BS. If someone likes the game, they like the game. You
>may not agree, but you have no justification for claiming that they are not
>allowed to like something that you don't like.

You still don't know what a fanboy is, or how it's used properly. It
has more to it than "liking a game".

I suggest rereading the posts that should have illuminated you.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>> 
>> 
>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>> 
>>>from work for a little fun.
>> 
>> No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>
>Which in Ben's world translates to "Thinks that a game is better than I 
>think it is".

Incorrect. If you'll notice I didn't call everyone in the thread who
likes CoH a fanboy, which makes your statement utterly false. I did
call the one person who took to insulting those who posted negatives
about it a fanboy. Your conclusion is demonstrably wrong.


>I think his statement accurately reflects the casual gamer attitude and 
>the way CoH caters to that.

So, in your opinion, casual players think everyone who plays other
mmorpgs or may not take to CoH is a no life loser?

PPOR.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

On Fri, 07 May 2004 18:59:54 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>
wrote:

>Dan S dan@work.com wrote:
>
>> So although I respect your opinion, I just don't understand what games 
>> you're playing that are lasting that long.
>
>Typically newer MMORPGs will have free content updated every
>month. The "Asheron's Call" franchise had this. The story arc
>slowly progresses and the players are supposed to have an affect
>on it. Talk to any AC1 player and you'll see what I mean.
>
>AC2 is a different story. It was crap.
>
>So yes, there are games which will take you a year to really play
>because during launch the entire story hasn't been told yet.

Umm yeah I know that. I played thew original AC for almost a year.

chain made the statement if a game doesn't last longer then a month,
its not worth his money. I was simply pointing out most NON mmorpgs
don't last longer then a month, so if in fact I only get a month out
of COH, I see no difference then if I spent that month playing Gothic
2.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:
>>>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>>>
>>><snip a very negative assessment>
>> 
>> Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
>> this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
>> They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
>> game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
>> allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
>> characteristic of a powergamer.
>
>Says the person who isn't a casual gamer.  Forgive me if I, an actual 
>casual gamer, takes this with a shaker of salt.
>
>Casual gamers complain when in order to advance to higher levels you 
>have to spend a lot of time and commit to the game and when all the cool 
>content -- or, at least, there's a lot of it -- is at the higher levels. 

No they don't as an absolute. Some do... the casual powergamers who
are frustrated that other people got power or items that they can't
get. Envy is such an ugly thing. It leads people to post blanket
statements like "the people posting negatives about CoH are no life
losers playing 16 hours a day".

But most the casual players don't give a shit. They aren't envious, or
jealous. They see no need to insult the people who play a lot. They
play to have fun. They do have fun in CoH I don't doubt it. What they
don't do is worry about how powerful everyone else is or post how
finally they can compete with the "uber" crowd. As I said, those are
characteristics of a subclass: the casual powergamer, the whiniest
species on the planet and the scourge of mmorpg development. "I want
everything, now, for minimal effort, because I can only play once a
month for half an hour and its not fair!"


>  A game that I can get onto and advance in to higher level content 
>easily is much better for a casual gamer.
>
>What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?

That is like a defining statement for a powergamer, casual or
otherwise. If you wanted to avoid being pigeonholed as such, that was
not a good thing to say.


>>>As for your comments regarding the game's AI, I think you're just flat out
>>>wrong. I've played every major MMOG there is and the AI has ranged from
>>>utterly stupid to mildly non-stupid. This one's AI is in the latter category
>>>(honestly, there aren't many game AI's in general that are worthy of high
>>>praise, certainly not in MMOGs). The key point is that relatively speaking,
>>>CoH's is miles above the norm and as good as any out there. Mobs low on
>>>health will run to get friends, they will heal each other, they buff, and
>>>yes, EverQuest has been doing this for years. If your point is that other
>>>MMOGs have *some* of these same characteristics, that's fine. But here we
>>>are talking about an AI that on release 1.0 is at least as good as one
>>>that's been around for 5 years.
>> 
>> I would hope that AI would advance as more modern games were released.
>> I don't consider a brand new game having an AI as good as a five year
>> old game to be a point in the new game's favor. I expect it to be
>> downright better. And if the time frame is over five years, like it is
>> in comparison with EQ, I expect it to be better in every damn way. You
>> tell me, having played both... is CoH's AI better than EQ's in every
>> way?
>
>You can only say that if EQ's AI has not gotten better in those 5 years. 
>   If it has, then it is a point in the game's favour since it is as 
>good as anything out there out of the box, with room for improvement.

I know EQ from day one to today and I am hardpressed to come up with
anything that could be construed as an "AI improvement". Maybe the
slight adjustments to mob aggro lists, very game specific. EQ is
hardly the best when it comes to mob AI in the first place... I'd put
it nearly dead last, actually, only better than UO (even older) and
the recent failed mmorpgs. Not high praise for CoH to be compared as
equal to a five year old game that never bothered to improve its AI. I
expect better. In ANY genre, not just mmorpgs.


>> Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
>> guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
>> wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
>> short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
>> before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.
>
>Again with the DAoC bashing.  You need a new schtick.

Whatever. It describes DAoC perfectly. The thing is, DAoC did, after a
*long* time, actually find an endgame worth something just in time to
save at least their initial subscriber base number, if a bit too late
to add to it. Jury still out on CoH.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Xocyll Xocyll@kingston.net wrote:

> There is however a neat little thing about hover;
> If you're low enough when they run up to you, they swap to their melee
> attack, and you then rise a little bit higher, you can sit safely out of
> range while they still use their melee attack.

Hover is a defense buff. You can enhance it for more defense too.

-- 
Thamer Al-Harbash    http://www.whitefang.com/

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>:

>Holden wrote:
>> Yea, two hits (literally, that's all it takes my scrapper to drop the
>> average mob at level 5). How horrible is that? If I'm not one-shotting
>> everything I meet at level 40, then the game blows! :)
>
>Methinks you miss the point.  He wasn't complaining about how *much* effort
>it takes (or how little, either, for that matter), but rather that the game
>"feels" the same regardless of level.  Scaled difficulty eventually gives
>you the feeling that you're just doing a lot of wheelspinning.

Sadly thats a flaw in games that have gotten "too" balanced.
Distinctiveness is lost, and you feel exactly as powerful at L100 as
you did at L1 when fighting mobs for exp or what have you. The only
time you ever feel more powerful is when you go back to kill that old
garbage again for some reason.

This is a point in favor of some chaoticness in game design, where at
some points some things really are balanced differently, even slightly
more or slightly less. As long as its kept to a managable degree, I
think its actually not a bad idea at all.

Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.

A completely balanced game would be very boring!

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:

>Likewise when people lose their sense of humour (assuming they ever had
>one)...>;-p

Sorry then Nostromo.

But you didn't really sound joking-ish to me even now on reread.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Nostromo wrote:
>
> You don't scare me CB. I had ya pegged for a truckie anyway! ;-p

Nope--a by-god boilermaker until I went back to school for my degree in
English Ed.    Didn't take me long to get back to it because I made twice
the money and didn't have to put up with snotty prick kids' snotty prick
parents. :-p

-- 
chainbreaker

"Ben Sisson" <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:eqcl90dt1k74nnhh7sr8g394folr4mt1fc@4ax.com...

> >>> I've tried Virtue, Protector, Infinity.
> >>> The behavior is _exactly_ the same on all three, regardless of how
> >>> loaded the server is.
> >>
> >>Just as a possible solution.
> >>
> >>Have you flashed your router with the latest firmware upgrade?  I ask
only
> >>because when Planetside first came out, I found it completely
unplayable,
> >>I kept getting dropped every 3 to 5 minutes.  Flashed the router, and
that
> >>behavior completely stopped.
> >
> >I don't _have_ a router.
>
> I'm betting against that solution working then.

I don't think this is his issue, it's a server problem. I've also
experienced the "Disconnected from Mapserver" problem on each of the three
servers on which I play and with different accounts on different machines,
they definitely have some issue here. It's happened maybe 4 or 5 times since
I started playing, it's not a horrendously regular problem, but it's
annoying as hell when it happens because if you're in a mission and it leads
to a disconnect, you come back in outside the entrance as though you had
abandoned the mission. One of the few, but more serious, launch problems.
-- 
Doc Justice
20th Level Defender (Empathy/Radiation Blast)
Citizen of the Justice Server - Paragon City

The Hypnotist
7th Level Controller (Illusion/Storm)
Citizen of the Protector Server - Paragon City

Ben Sisson wrote:
> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
>
> A completely balanced game would be very boring!

I think D2's ruined a lot of us that way, and I don't understand why other
development groups don't take the lesson to heart.
-- 
chainbreaker

Ben Sisson wrote:
> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Nostromo <nostromo@spamfree.net.au>:
>
>> Likewise when people lose their sense of humour (assuming they ever
>> had one)...>;-p
>
> Sorry then Nostromo.
>
> But you didn't really sound joking-ish to me even now on reread.

His sense of humor is tone deaf.

-- 
chainbreaker

> Neat. :)
> 
> Glad to hear these kinds of missions exist. Thanks man.
> 
> You got the Mission Completed line as soon as you clicked on that one?

Yes.  As soon as I clicked on the 2nd box or so, I got it.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> Alas (for you) the argument was made that if you criticized CoH for
>> *any* reason, you must be one of those people.
>> 
>> It was the case.
>
>Nope.  He directed it at the poster.  Perhaps you can't tell when 
>something is directed at an individual or a group?

Can you? His statement was clearly general since he used it against
multiple people, some of which had not really given specific opinions
on the game at all other than to defend those with complaints.

I guess you mean its directed at all the posters who make criticisms
(regardless of actual points made) and somehow that means its
specifically targetted. That's like dropping a bomb on a major city
and then claiming it was specifically targetted at individuals because
everyone it killed was someone who held an opposing viewpoint.
-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>> 
>> 
>>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>>name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
>>>>
>>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>>>
>>>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>>>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>>>>all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
>>>>words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
>>>>different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
>>>>life crowd".
>>>>
>>>>First hint: there is no perfect game.
>>>
>>>First hint: Don't claim that someone says something when the quote you 
>>>supply doesn't support it.
>> 
>> 
>> Repeated:
>> 
>> 
>>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>> 
>> 
>> So much for that 'hint'.
>
>Repeating what you said:
>
> >>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
> >>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
> >>>all
>
>Show me where he said that there was no negatives to the game at all. 

"The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
wrong. Factually wrong."


>He found the other poster's arguments about the negatives invalid, but 
>that's a far cry from saying there are no negatives to the game at all.

Not true. It does indeed say that.


> >>>and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
> >>>words.
>
>He, of course, never used the term "factually wrong", and instead 
>commented on "not based on reality".

"The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
wrong. Factually wrong."

So much for THAT.


> >>>And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
> >>>different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
> >>>life crowd
>
>Hardcore MMORPGs can be accurately called "no life crowd", since they 
>spend all their time playing the MMORPG.

This is just plain wrong. There are numerous examples of people in
this very newsgroup who are obviously not hardcore players, but they
are playing mmorpgs that you and he are classifying as hardcore. The
blanket statement that they are "no-lifers" because they play EQ or
DAoC remains as idiotic as it was then.


> Even if this was a bit out of 
>line, so what?  You yourself are not exactly noted for being the sole of 
>non-insulting courtesy in your own responses.  This is Usenet.  Things 
>get over-stated. 

What of it? Live by the sword, die by the sword. I'm not saying he
can't be a fanboy if he wants to be. But if he is going to tell other
people to get a life, accuse anyone who has negative things to say of
being no-lifers, and deny that CoH could possibly have negatives, he
best be prepared to pay the piper.

>
>I do find it interesting that you dislike two of the games that shold 
>have more mainstream appeal -- DAoC and CoH

I suggest you reread my posts. Not only have I found quotes you
claimed did not exist, I in fact appreciate what CoH is trying to do
and don't dislike the game at all, and have posted as much. I don't
dislike DAoC either, just Mythic. Why accuse me of beliefs I do not
hold?

I only have one complaint against CoH and that is that the game is
ultimately shallow. Wide, but shallow. Lacking in long term appeal for
all its short term glitter. And that is an unprovable (or disprovable)
opinion. We will see, won't we?


>>>Second hint: People don't tend to bring up negatives when defending 
>>>something they like against a hugely negative attack.  This does not 
>>>make someone a fanboy
>> 
>> Calling everyone expressing negatives the "no-life crowd" does.
>
>Yes, but again you said:
>
> >>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
> >>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
> >>>all
>
>No one points out negatives while defending a game against attacks. 
>Well, except me, of course.

Ad hominem arguments are not defending a game against attacks. "You
see negatives in CoH because you have no life" is a classic ad hominem
example and is an accurate paraphrase of his response to Clogar, and
implied in his response to Knight37.

And I maintain his above quote does indeed give the impression he sees
no negatives aspects.


>> Telling someone who gave a dissenting opinion to "go outside, get a
>> life" does.
>
>Except, of course, he never said that, and your quotes don't show that.

He never said exactly that. It is a paraphrase of what he said to
Knight37, after Knight37 defended someone who gave a negative opinion.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>Ben Sisson wrote:
>
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>> 
>> 
>>>
>>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>
>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>
>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>
>>>Which in Ben's world translates to "Thinks that a game is better than I 
>>>think it is".
>> 
>> 
>> Incorrect. If you'll notice I didn't call everyone in the thread who
>> likes CoH a fanboy, which makes your statement utterly false.
>
>Not necessarily.   You might have just thought it [grin].
>
>The evidence in the past is sufficient to think that, for the most part, 
>you tend to call someone a fanboy who defends a game stronger than you 
>think it should be.

I considered again demanding proof but I get the impression from your
other posts you are looking to have another go at my opinions of DAoC,
which I'm not terribly interested in doing over again. I call a select
group "fanboy", and invariably they are those who defend a game on
bases that don't warrant the conclusion reached. A typical example
would be someone who proclaims WoW to be the "bestest evar" on the
basis of Blizzard having made Starcraft and Diablo. Someone who
proclaims WoW to be the "bestest evar" and then backs it up using
evidence from beta or established features that are logically
connected would never ever get called a fanboy by me no matter how
much I might disagree. And I am consistent with this to the beginning.
I didn't call you a fanboy, or Holden, or Bob.

>
>>>I think his statement accurately reflects the casual gamer attitude and 
>>>the way CoH caters to that.
>> 
>> So, in your opinion, casual players think everyone who plays other
>> mmorpgs or may not take to CoH is a no life loser?
>
>Nope.  My opinion is that casual players will take more to a game that 
>is simpler and easier to level in and thus gain more access to 
>higher-level content, and that CoH caters more to that.  I also think 
>that the people who prefer the old-style, hardcore aimed MMORPGs -- and 
>you are almost certain to be one of these -- will dislike it because it 
>moves away from the sorts of things they like.  Which is pretty much 
>just what he said.

It's not. He didn't hedge at all. He made a global statement. He
gathered both EQ and DAoC players up in it as well. According to
shadows, anyone playing either of those games (and we must assume
games like them) is a no life loser.

In fact, his dismissal of Clogar appears to have been based solely on
Clogar having experienced EQ. Clogar wasn't even particularly
negative, but he did make the same judgement I did - that there's not
a lot there for an endgame. But apparently that's enough to get him
labelled a no-lifer.

>
>> PPOR.
>
>What the hell does this mean?

Post proof or retract but if you're not going to defend his statements
as they actually were, rather than your more mellow version, its not
important.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>
>
>Ben Sisson wrote:
>> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>> 
>> 
>>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>>name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:
>>>>
>>>>>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>>>>>
>>>>><snip a very negative assessment>
>>>>
>>>>Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
>>>>this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
>>>>They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
>>>>game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
>>>>allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
>>>>characteristic of a powergamer.
>>>
>>>Says the person who isn't a casual gamer.  Forgive me if I, an actual 
>>>casual gamer, takes this with a shaker of salt.
>>>
>>>Casual gamers complain when in order to advance to higher levels you 
>>>have to spend a lot of time and commit to the game and when all the cool 
>>>content -- or, at least, there's a lot of it -- is at the higher levels. 
>> 
>> 
>> No they don't as an absolute.
>
>The only time they don't complain is when there is nothing interesting 
>at higher levels for them to feel that they can't get there without 
>playing 16 hours a day. 

This is just wrong again. Who are you exactly to be speaking for all
casual gamers, or even most? You don't seem to understand most people
are not a part of the whining vocal minority. You are not typical of a
casual gamer, only of the vocal casual powergamer.


>> Some do... the casual powergamers who
>> are frustrated that other people got power or items that they can't
>> get.
>
>If that's all that good high-level content means to you, then you'd be 
>right about casual powergamers.  Fortunately, most good high-level 
>content is more like new areas, new cool powers and abilities, and new 
>story-arc missions.

Oh please. I gave a couple examples, it wasn't a comprehensive list.


>  And don't you think that casual gamers might feel 
>left out in games where levelling up ends up being something that takes 
>16 hours a day?

To most casual players, where they end up on their limited playtime
*is* "new areas, new cool powers and abilities, new story-arc
missions". It's just not the same ones the hardcore players are
playing.

The casual players who want the same ones as the hardcore players are
playing, but complain at the effort to get them, are the casual
powergamers. And contrary to what you seem to believe, most casual
players are not whining bitches. Most don't care. Most just play and
have fun.

>
>> Envy is such an ugly thing. It leads people to post blanket
>> statements like "the people posting negatives about CoH are no life
>> losers playing 16 hours a day".
>
>Actually, the argument was "this person posting negatives about CoH is a 
>no life loser used to playing 16 hours a day and whining incessantly 
>when a more basic game comes along that lets people who play 2 - 4 hours 
>a day have fun."

I saw no whining from Clogar or the others. I see a lot of whining
from the casual powergamers here who feel the need to knock people who
played the "less basic" games.


>> But most the casual players don't give a shit. They aren't envious, or
>> jealous. They see no need to insult the people who play a lot. They
>> play to have fun. They do have fun in CoH I don't doubt it. What they
>> don't do is worry about how powerful everyone else is or post how
>> finally they can compete with the "uber" crowd.
>
>Again, you miss the point.  They post that finally they might have a 
>shot at getting at all that cool high-level content that everyone says 
>is so good.

Most don't do that at all. You're confusing the vocal minority with
the majority again.

Once again I'm forced to ask why you feel you're a spokesman for all
these casual gamers when most do not behave the same way you do?

>
>> As I said, those are
>> characteristics of a subclass: the casual powergamer, the whiniest
>> species on the planet and the scourge of mmorpg development. "I want
>> everything, now, for minimal effort, because I can only play once a
>> month for half an hour and its not fair!"
>
>If an MMORPG is going to advertise that the best things are all at 
>high-levels -- like DAoC's R vs R, the only really unique thing about it 
>-- then the fact that getting there takes so long that you pretty much 
>almost have to dedicate all your spare time to the game to get there, 
>they should expect people who don't have that much time to devote to it 
>to feel that they are missing out on things.

Most games don't consist of only an endgame, which makes your
statement too simple in practice. Casual gamers enjoy the journey.


>>> A game that I can get onto and advance in to higher level content 
>>>easily is much better for a casual gamer.
>>>
>>>What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?
>> 
>> That is like a defining statement for a powergamer, casual or
>> otherwise. If you wanted to avoid being pigeonholed as such, that was
>> not a good thing to say.
>
>One should never pigeonhold, Ben.

If the shoe fits... you seem to believe all there is to do in mmorpgs
is advance in levels. I don't agree and I don't think many here would
either, including many of the people who should be on your side in
this thread.

>
>Tell me what new things you can get or come across in any current MMORPG 
>-- SWG excluded, since I think it doesn't actually have levels -- 
>without advancing in levels?  You can't go exploring to any depth, 
>because the high-level enemies will slaughter you.  You can't get new 
>abilities.

This is not what you said. You said what else is there to do in
mmorpgs besides advance in levels, and there are plenty of other
things to do, explore, pvp, socialize, tradeskill, quest, raid.
Leveling up is a completely separate thing entirely. The specifics of
each may change by leveling up, but that doesn't change the fact
you're doing something besides leveling up when you do any of those
things.

Face it, you're just wrong. Leveling up is not the end all be all of
mmorpgs unless you are in fact a powergamer, and even many of those
would see other things on equal level, like raiding (which tends to
actually slow down leveling up).


>Note that, of course, I didn't mean that levelling is the only goal in 
>MMORPGs, but that almost every new thing you could aim for in an MMORPG 
>relies on you levelling up.

Ah okay. Backtrack accepted. It's still false. Nostromo can fill you
in on the details of an alternative if you want.


>>>>Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
>>>>guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
>>>>wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
>>>>short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
>>>>before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.
>>>
>>>Again with the DAoC bashing.  You need a new schtick.
>> 
>> Whatever. It describes DAoC perfectly.
>
>Who cares?  You don't need to bring up DAoC every time you want to say 
>something negative.  Isn't that kind of close to a fanboy, except in 
>opposition to a game instead of in favour of it?

DAoC fit the description best. I use the best example I can think of.
If it happens to be a game that I've used in examples before.. *shrug*

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:

>Ben Sisson wrote:

>> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
>> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
>> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
>> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
>> 
>> A completely balanced game would be very boring!
>> 
>
>A completely balanced game would rely on story and other elements to add 
>interest, and not rocking or gimping.  Personally, that's what I want, 
>and why Diablo doesn't interest me.

Story has little or nothing to do with game balance.

-- 

Magister Mundi sum!

Aughra: Where is he?
Jen: He's dead.
Aughra: Could be anywhere, then.

Ben Sisson wrote:
> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:
>>>
>>>>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>>>>
>>>><snip a very negative assessment>
>>>
>>>Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
>>>this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
>>>They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
>>>game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
>>>allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
>>>characteristic of a powergamer.
>>
>>Says the person who isn't a casual gamer.  Forgive me if I, an actual 
>>casual gamer, takes this with a shaker of salt.
>>
>>Casual gamers complain when in order to advance to higher levels you 
>>have to spend a lot of time and commit to the game and when all the cool 
>>content -- or, at least, there's a lot of it -- is at the higher levels. 
> 
> 
> No they don't as an absolute.

The only time they don't complain is when there is nothing interesting 
at higher levels for them to feel that they can't get there without 
playing 16 hours a day.  Oh, wait, isn't that what you were claiming 
DAoC lacked at launch, and figure that CoH lacks, that high level 
content that's actually interesting?

> Some do... the casual powergamers who
> are frustrated that other people got power or items that they can't
> get.

If that's all that good high-level content means to you, then you'd be 
right about casual powergamers.  Fortunately, most good high-level 
content is more like new areas, new cool powers and abilities, and new 
story-arc missions.  And don't you think that casual gamers might feel 
left out in games where levelling up ends up being something that takes 
16 hours a day?

> Envy is such an ugly thing. It leads people to post blanket
> statements like "the people posting negatives about CoH are no life
> losers playing 16 hours a day".

Actually, the argument was "this person posting negatives about CoH is a 
no life loser used to playing 16 hours a day and whining incessantly 
when a more basic game comes along that lets people who play 2 - 4 hours 
a day have fun."

> 
> But most the casual players don't give a shit. They aren't envious, or
> jealous. They see no need to insult the people who play a lot. They
> play to have fun. They do have fun in CoH I don't doubt it. What they
> don't do is worry about how powerful everyone else is or post how
> finally they can compete with the "uber" crowd.

Again, you miss the point.  They post that finally they might have a 
shot at getting at all that cool high-level content that everyone says 
is so good.

> As I said, those are
> characteristics of a subclass: the casual powergamer, the whiniest
> species on the planet and the scourge of mmorpg development. "I want
> everything, now, for minimal effort, because I can only play once a
> month for half an hour and its not fair!"

If an MMORPG is going to advertise that the best things are all at 
high-levels -- like DAoC's R vs R, the only really unique thing about it 
-- then the fact that getting there takes so long that you pretty much 
almost have to dedicate all your spare time to the game to get there, 
they should expect people who don't have that much time to devote to it 
to feel that they are missing out on things.

> 
> 
> 
>> A game that I can get onto and advance in to higher level content 
>>easily is much better for a casual gamer.
>>
>>What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?
> 
> 
> That is like a defining statement for a powergamer, casual or
> otherwise. If you wanted to avoid being pigeonholed as such, that was
> not a good thing to say.

One should never pigeonhold, Ben.

Tell me what new things you can get or come across in any current MMORPG 
-- SWG excluded, since I think it doesn't actually have levels -- 
without advancing in levels?  You can't go exploring to any depth, 
because the high-level enemies will slaughter you.  You can't get new 
abilities. You could do tradeskills, I suppose, but even those have 
levels where you don't get to make the cooler things until you've gained 
enough to make them.

For CoH in particular, if I don't level up, I don't get new powers. 
This means that I'd never get to fly.  You don't even get new missions 
in any MMORPG if you don't level up.  So what is there to do in an 
MMORPG if you aren't levelling up?

Note that, of course, I didn't mean that levelling is the only goal in 
MMORPGs, but that almost every new thing you could aim for in an MMORPG 
relies on you levelling up.

>>You can only say that if EQ's AI has not gotten better in those 5 years. 
>>  If it has, then it is a point in the game's favour since it is as 
>>good as anything out there out of the box, with room for improvement.
> 
> 
> I know EQ from day one to today and I am hardpressed to come up with
> anything that could be construed as an "AI improvement".

So maybe I stand corrected.  I haven't played EQ and so can't say.

>>>Again, all I've heard is big initial flash, no staying power. The DAoC
>>>guide to launches - wow them with early stability and technical
>>>wonders to get people "hugely impressed with this little gem" in the
>>>short term, then hope you can add an endgame to provide some longevity
>>>before everyone notices the emperor has no clothes.
>>
>>Again with the DAoC bashing.  You need a new schtick.
> 
> 
> Whatever. It describes DAoC perfectly.

Who cares?  You don't need to bring up DAoC every time you want to say 
something negative.  Isn't that kind of close to a fanboy, except in 
opposition to a game instead of in favour of it?

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name "chainbreaker" <noone@nowhere.com>:
> 
> 
>>Holden wrote:
>>
>>>Yea, two hits (literally, that's all it takes my scrapper to drop the
>>>average mob at level 5). How horrible is that? If I'm not one-shotting
>>>everything I meet at level 40, then the game blows! :)
>>
>>Methinks you miss the point.  He wasn't complaining about how *much* effort
>>it takes (or how little, either, for that matter), but rather that the game
>>"feels" the same regardless of level.  Scaled difficulty eventually gives
>>you the feeling that you're just doing a lot of wheelspinning.
> 
> 
> Sadly thats a flaw in games that have gotten "too" balanced.
> Distinctiveness is lost, and you feel exactly as powerful at L100 as
> you did at L1 when fighting mobs for exp or what have you. The only
> time you ever feel more powerful is when you go back to kill that old
> garbage again for some reason.
> 
> This is a point in favor of some chaoticness in game design, where at
> some points some things really are balanced differently, even slightly
> more or slightly less. As long as its kept to a managable degree, I
> think its actually not a bad idea at all.
> 
> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
> 
> A completely balanced game would be very boring!
> 

A completely balanced game would rely on story and other elements to add 
interest, and not rocking or gimping.  Personally, that's what I want, 
and why Diablo doesn't interest me.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>
>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>
>>Which in Ben's world translates to "Thinks that a game is better than I 
>>think it is".
> 
> 
> Incorrect. If you'll notice I didn't call everyone in the thread who
> likes CoH a fanboy, which makes your statement utterly false.

Not necessarily.   You might have just thought it [grin].

The evidence in the past is sufficient to think that, for the most part, 
you tend to call someone a fanboy who defends a game stronger than you 
think it should be.

> I did
> call the one person who took to insulting those who posted negatives
> about it a fanboy. Your conclusion is demonstrably wrong.

But again that was mostly your taking it to an extreme and 
misrepresenting who strongly he defended the game.

> 
> 
> 
>>I think his statement accurately reflects the casual gamer attitude and 
>>the way CoH caters to that.
> 
> 
> So, in your opinion, casual players think everyone who plays other
> mmorpgs or may not take to CoH is a no life loser?

Nope.  My opinion is that casual players will take more to a game that 
is simpler and easier to level in and thus gain more access to 
higher-level content, and that CoH caters more to that.  I also think 
that the people who prefer the old-style, hardcore aimed MMORPGs -- and 
you are almost certain to be one of these -- will dislike it because it 
moves away from the sorts of things they like.  Which is pretty much 
just what he said.

> 
> PPOR.

What the hell does this mean?

> 

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com>:
>>>
>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>
>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>>
>>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>>>all and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
>>>words. And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
>>>different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
>>>life crowd".
>>>
>>>First hint: there is no perfect game.
>>
>>First hint: Don't claim that someone says something when the quote you 
>>supply doesn't support it.
> 
> 
> Repeated:
> 
> 
>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>
>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
> 
> 
> So much for that 'hint'.

Repeating what you said:

 >>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
 >>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
 >>>all

Show me where he said that there was no negatives to the game at all. 
He found the other poster's arguments about the negatives invalid, but 
that's a far cry from saying there are no negatives to the game at all.

 >>>and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
 >>>words.

He, of course, never used the term "factually wrong", and instead 
commented on "not based on reality".  Now, he could be wrong, and the 
other poster might actually have played the game, but all this indicates 
is that his experience contradicts the negatives that the other poster 
posited.  Not the same thing at all.

 >>>And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
 >>>different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
 >>>life crowd

Hardcore MMORPGs can be accurately called "no life crowd", since they 
spend all their time playing the MMORPG.  Even if this was a bit out of 
line, so what?  You yourself are not exactly noted for being the sole of 
non-insulting courtesy in your own responses.  This is Usenet.  Things 
get over-stated.  Yet the point applies that he might be just upset that 
CoH aims more at casal gamers and not hardcore gamers.

I do find it interesting that you dislike two of the games that shold 
have more mainstream appeal -- DAoC and CoH (I don't know what you think 
of SWG, but that was not supposed to be a very good game in general).

> 
> 
> 
>>Second hint: People don't tend to bring up negatives when defending 
>>something they like against a hugely negative attack.  This does not 
>>make someone a fanboy
> 
> 
> Calling everyone expressing negatives the "no-life crowd" does.

Yes, but again you said:

 >>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
 >>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
 >>>all

No one points out negatives while defending a game against attacks. 
Well, except me, of course.

> 
> Telling someone who gave a dissenting opinion to "go outside, get a
> life" does.

Except, of course, he never said that, and your quotes don't show that.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com>:
>>>
>>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>>>
>>>>>The term "fanboy" is meaningless. Anytime anyone likes something they are
>>>>>called a fanboy by at least one other person. I just don't understand the
>>>>>logic behind trying to insult someone merely on the basis of liking
>>>>>something, as if the act of liking it is somehow wrong. Are you suggesting
>>>>>that being a fan is a bad thing? Are there any games you like? Should you be
>>>>>insulted for liking them?
>>>>
>>>>Only if the person seems to take criticism of his current gaming interest as a
>>>>personal assault would the term be relevant.
>>>
>>>Which was the case here.
>>
>>Which WASN'T the case here.  The "no life" crowd is a good term to 
>>describe people with the time to pay 16 hours a day.
> 
> 
> Alas (for you) the argument was made that if you criticized CoH for
> *any* reason, you must be one of those people.
> 
> It was the case.

Nope.  He directed it at the poster.  Perhaps you can't tell when 
something is directed at an individual or a group?

Xocyll wrote:

> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> looked up from reading the entrails of
> the porn spammer to utter  "The Augury is good, the signs say:
> 
> 
>>Samy Merchi wrote:
>>
>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
>>>news:x5omc.32665
>>>
>>>
>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get
>>>>in trouble?
>>>
>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>>>people who help out other people in this game. In real life or
>>>comics, if you were fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy
>>>showed up and helped you defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile,
>>>"Thanks for the help." Here it's just "j00 stupid n00b these were my
>>>kills!"
>>>
>>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
>>>than about playing in-character.
>>
>>They'd be thanked if they needed the help. If someone comes along and just
>>jumps in a fight when the hero is already clearly got it under control, then
>>they wouldn't be so appreciative. Some heroes might be ok with it, some
>>might not like someone else stealing their glory...just like players.
> 
> 
> I have yet to have someone steal a kill.
> I've had people stop an watch me fight something, and once or twice
> someone hit them with a disorient or hold power making it easier to hit
> them.

I've had it happen about 5 or 6 times already.  It's quite annoying.

> 
> I've wandered past others who were fighting and done the same kind of
> thing (well ok with the new character I can't stop something without
> hurting it, but I can do random walk-by heals which seem to be
> appreciated even by those that are only slightly wounded.)

I'd do that as well, but generally they don't need my help.

> 
> I'm sure there are kill-stealing idiots out there, but so far i'm not
> meeting them.  Hopefully I never will, but then since they can't steal
> all the experience, it's not that big a deal to me.   
> Though it could be annoying if you had a hit 10 of type x and that
> person making the kill meant you didn't get credit even though you did
> get exp.

It does.  That was a pain in the ass.

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> I remain unconvinced that CoH allows one to notice how their
>> enhancements work, even when one is using them right.

> Try the damage enhancements. My AOE fire powers went from -1
> every second to -10.

That's pretty impressive. It also sounds almost like a lie, considering 
that 6 slots of SO damage enhancements will only triple your normal damage.

I read up on this on the CoH forums because I became intrigued by this 
thread vis-a-vis how much exactly enhancements give you. The answer, given 
in a post by a developer, was that until you hit DO and SO enhancements at 
higher levels (12+ or thereabouts?), a single enhancement will only give 
you an 8% boost. So for a power that normally did 10pts per shot, you 
wouldn't even see a single point's increase. This supports my stance: 
enhancements before DO/SO ones don't really do jack crap.

You'd have to load up all six slots full of damage enhancements in order to 
get anywhere noticeable, a 50% increase or so.

And you had the nerve to tell me I wasn't playing the game right, insisting 
that the enhancements *do* matter, I just wasn't using them right.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in

> Samy is a buffoon.

It's good to see that one of us is capable of civil interaction without 
calling the other one names. But I can understand the mounting frustration 
when one starts to run thin on counterarguments.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> Actually I disagree. The game is the one that decides that even when
>> I have six 10++ damage enhancements on my Ice Blast, I can't take
>> down a single foe of my level with a single blast, not even minions.

> Samy you're an idiot. That's why you cannot do this. It's not the
> game. It's you.

So what you're saying is that if I had a higher IQ, the damage my character 
did would automagically increase? How fascinating. I don't think I've run 
into a game like that before.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Samy Merchi wrote:

> Memnoch <memnoch@nospampleaseimbritish.ntlworld.com> wrote in
> 
> 
>>So was the mission objective just to get the jewel? If so then the
>>devs should reward people for being able to complete the mission in an
>>alternative manner, rather than wading in blasting everything in site.
> 
> 
> I believe the objective was originally to get the jewel, but when I got it, 
> it changed to 'defeat all CoT in cave'. I had to run around for a long time 
> beating up on everyone before I got the Mission Completed text. :(
> 

Pay attention to the briefing.  I think I had the same mission and the 
contact said "Recover the jewel and capture the thief".

Samy Merchi wrote:

> "Holden" <nothx@ihatespam.com> wrote in
> 
>>chainbreaker wrote:
> 
> 
>>>"Nearly all powers are similar to already-existing ones with minor
>>>tweaking. There's a lot of duplication and redundancy around, with
>>>different powers made out of basically the same thing with teeny-tiny
>>>changes."
>>
>>That's not even close to being true though. Granted, there are
>>variations of common powers, but each variation accomplishes a
>>different goal, none of them are redundant at all.
> 
> 
> I think it is fairly true, actually. If you don't consider it to be true, 
> then you require less variety than I do.
> 
> Ice Blasting powers, Fire Blasting, Energy Blasting and Electricity 
> Blasting are all basically the same except for their graphics. They don't 
> develop in different directions, they all follow the same progression 
> more or less -- each powerset gains the ability to 'Build Up', gets two 
> bolt attacks, one higher-powered but slower recharging and the other 
> lower-powered but faster recharging. 

In theory, things have different resistances to the different elements.

In practice, Mental Blast works on robots [grin].

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> I'm targeting a foe, hitting the key for 'Ice Blast', and watching
>> how much of the enemy's life bar goes away.
>> What else should I be doing?

> * Watching how much endurance you lose, and maximazing endurance
>   loss versus damage output.

I always lose the same amount of endurance when I hit Ice Blast. The damage 
output, also, stays constant. Neither damage output nor endurance loss when 
I hit Ice Blast are any different no matter how meticulously I watch the 
bars.

> * Buffing your defenses up with defense enhancements. Watch what
>   kind of damage they do and defend against it.

Defense enhancements don't affect how much damage an Ice Blast does. That's 
what we're talking about here. How much damage a single Ice Blast does.

> * Use inspirations to buff attack and defense. Stock up on health
>   and endurance inspirations too for bosses.

I use Enrage when I have it. It is of noticeable (though not stunningly so) 
use.

However, I'm not arguing against the effectiveness of inspirations. I am 
arguing against the effectiveness of the basic powers and the enhancements.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Memnoch wrote:

> On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:31:22 -0700, Allan C Cybulskie
> <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>Samy Merchi wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>>trouble?
>>>
>>>
>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>>>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>>>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>>>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>>>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>>
>>Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I actually 
>>have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for 
>>interfering where you weren't wanted.
>>
>>In terms of game dynamic, what you are indeed doing is taking someone 
>>else's "kills", making it harder for them to gain experience and level 
>>up.  If the person can handle the group, leave them alone.  If they're 
>>in trouble, ask if you can help them out.
>>
>>To put that back into RP terms, let's say that I'm out hunting the 
>>criminal element in order to learn how to use my powers and train myself 
>>up.  And you come along and stop me from doing that.  Do you expect me 
>>to be happy about that?
> 
> 
> I used to do that in DaOC. I used to get a lot of satisfaction from hanging
> around near fields killing stuff, as you do, and watching out for others. If
> one goes into headlong flight away from the enemy I'd watch their health. If
> it looked like they were going to die I would step in and draw agro away from
> them. Great way to make friends and a name for yourself.

I'd occasionally do that as well (I only occasionally do ANYTHING in 
DAoC).  I don't call that poaching.  I call poaching killing something 
when I'm in pretty good shape to handle it.

CoH's mobs hang out in groups more than usual, so it seems to be more of 
a problem.

Memnoch wrote:

> On Fri, 07 May 2004 06:38:04 -0700, Allan C Cybulskie
> <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>Memnoch wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 06 May 2004 18:20:18 GMT, shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:x5omc.32665
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get in 
>>>>>>trouble?
>>>>>
>>>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at people 
>>>>>who help out other people in this game. In real life or comics, if you were 
>>>>>fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy showed up and helped you 
>>>>>defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile, "Thanks for the help." Here it's 
>>>>>just "j00 stupid n00b these were my kills!"
>>>>>
>>>>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more than 
>>>>>about playing in-character.
>>>>
>>>>Samy, this is where I *know* you don't get MMORPGs. You're
>>>>stealing kills. If you want to help, ask first, or offer to join
>>>>a group. 99% of the time I run into other players I hit F9 and it
>>>>automatically tells them who I am and that I want to group. If
>>>>they care they invite and you can fight with them and share exp.
>>>>
>>>>If you stole my kills by "helping" I'd be shouting profanities at
>>>>you too.
>>>
>>>
>>>And then get reported to the admins cause profanities are disallowed. It's
>>>just a game mate. Get over it for god sake. If someone does something you
>>>don't like move on, its a big game I'm sure. 
>>
>>My reply to someone who took one of my kills was "Leave my kills alone", 
>>followed by my running off.
> 
> 
> That told him! He'll be thinking about that one all evening. :-)

I bet he will, wondering "Why the hell didn't he fly into a rage and 
swear at me?  Something's wrong here!" [grin].

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> So if enhancements aren't powerful at lower levels, what's the point
>> to using them?

> The point is that you can cheaply upgrade them slowly over time
> instead of paying a lot of influence to buy them all at once.

Actually I think you save influence if you go to level 10 without using 
enhancements, and then fill up on level 10 enhancements -- as opposed to 
using enhancements all the way to level 10, upgrading them each level.

So your usage of 'cheaply upgrade' vs 'paying a lot to buy them all at 
once' is pretty much ass-backwards. The latter method is cheaper.

> The point is at level 5 you need all the help you can get.

I'm quite certain that I could get through level 5 without using 
enhancements. Especially ones that give a less than impressive 10% bonus. 
Blink and you'll miss it.

> The point is an enhanced level 5 hero can beat a villan at level
> 5 more easily.

Certainly. But unless the enhanced hero has loaded all slots full of dmaage 
enhancements to the max (and not all players are going to be the damage-
mongers to do this), then the advantage is going to be 'VERY SLIGHTLY more 
easily'. Again, blink and you'll miss it.

> The point is Samy you're supposed to use your brain.

Which I am. Just not in a way that you like.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Samy Merchi wrote:

> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
> 
>>Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
> 
>>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>>>people who help out other people in this game.
> 
> 
>>Hmmmm.  Imagine doing that to Batman, and see what he says.  I
>>actually have a character who, if he could, would probably gut you for
>>interfering where you weren't wanted.
> 
> 
> Very true. The lack of PvP must be very frustrating to some players.

Actually, that was that RP'ing you wanted to see, since that character 
doesn't actually care much about mortals and humans and one getting in 
his way would result in a pre-emptory killing and a moving on.

I don't know what my other two characters would do.  One would probably 
just warn the guy, while the other would probably simply view it as 
another example of the corrupting powers of superpowers and the overall 
weakness of the human character.

Personally, as a player, I dislike PvP.

> 
> Still, though, in comics at least, such high-strung obsessive characters 
> are a minority by far. The vast majority of heroes wouldn't flip over 
> getting some help.

Batman is "high-strung"?  And the character that would do it is 
exceptionally calm -- he just doesn't consider humans worth considering.

> 
> 
>>In terms of game dynamic, what you are indeed doing is taking someone 
>>else's "kills", making it harder for them to gain experience and level
>>up.
> 
> 
> Yeah but certainly gaining experience and levelling up isn't the most 
> important thing about this game, surely?? Interaction between the 
> characters must be more important than that, right??

Well, yes, and no.  We all want the cool powers.

>>To put that back into RP terms, let's say that I'm out hunting the 
>>criminal element in order to learn how to use my powers and train
>>myself up.  And you come along and stop me from doing that.  Do you
>>expect me to be happy about that?
> 
> 
> I wouldn't expect you to mind, because one battle isn't going to matter 
> one whit in the long run of things. Which is indeed very well reflected 
> on an OOC level by the fact that you get like 5-20xp per win when you 
> need several thousands to level, if not more.

Ah, this is player logic, not hero logic.  If I'm out trying to learn to 
use my powers, you are stinting my improvement.  That "improvement" is 
IMPLEMENTED by XP, and so you stop me from improving.  That would be 
irritating.

> Missing out on a few wins 
> certainly doesn't make one whit of difference. I can sort of see this 
> argument working at levels 2-3 when you only need a couple hundred to 
> level, but still.

Well, so far, that's when I griped about it.  And mobs are hard to find.

> 

Samy Merchi wrote:

> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in news:5tJmc.44826
> 
>>Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
> 
> Re: Enhancements
> 
> 
>>>Just because I feel them to be useless does not mean I'm not using them 
>>>right, though. It just means that using them right does not have so 
>>>significant an effect that I'd notice it.
> 
> 
>>It think that just proves his point.  If you use them right, then they'd 
>>have a noticeable impact.
> 
> 
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for example? Do 
> you actually get a stopwatch and time how long it takes you to get from 
> place A to place B?

You should notice that you get from place to place faster than you did 
before -- in short, you spend less time in transit.

> 
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in accuracy? Do you collect 
> statistics on how many times you hit vs how many times you miss, and 
> compare the percentages vs each other?

I notice that I don't seem to miss as often when I stick accuracy on 
generally inaccurate powers -- such as my Mental Blast and Subdue ones 
on my Defender.

> 
> How are you supposed to notice an increase in hold duration? Again, do you 
> stopwatch it?

I notice that I get more shots in before he starts moving again.

Holden wrote:

> Samy Merchi wrote:
> 
>>Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
>>news:x5omc.32665
>>
>>
>>>second, what about heroes who want to help out other heroes who get
>>>in trouble?
>>
>>I've found it amazing, the degree of vitriol that gets directed at
>>people who help out other people in this game. In real life or
>>comics, if you were fighting a bunch of baddies and some other guy
>>showed up and helped you defeat them, you'd shake hands and smile,
>>"Thanks for the help." Here it's just "j00 stupid n00b these were my
>>kills!"
>>
>>It's astonishing. It's as if 99% of the players cared about 20xp more
>>than about playing in-character.
> 
> 
> They'd be thanked if they needed the help. If someone comes along and just
> jumps in a fight when the hero is already clearly got it under control, then
> they wouldn't be so appreciative. Some heroes might be ok with it, some
> might not like someone else stealing their glory...just like players.

This is true.  I thanked someone today for helping me out because it was 
getting hairy, and he said it didn't look like I needed help.

"mr bernard langham" <notactually@spammenot.com> wrote in news:409be147

> Thanks Samy--another very useful summary. Interesting.

My pleasure. Glad my ramblings are of use to someone. :)

Personally, I think you should take the plunge, but not expect too much. 
It's not a brilliant game with everything done right, but it does do quite 
a bit of things right. Quite a bit of things wrong too, but then, what game 
doesn't? I had issues even with Freedom Force and that's my favorite game 
ever.

I do think it's worth the initial price, but I agree with Ben in doubting 
its longevity. But even if it's short-lived, that doesn't mean you can't 
enjoy it for the weeks/months before you tire of it. The most exciting 
gaming moment I've had this year, comes from CoH: soaring over rooftops in 
the Gish, looking around for a green flare on a rooftop that is the sign 
that the Circle of Thorns is performing a sacrificial ritual you've got to 
stop. There's just something very cool about flying over the city and 
looking out for mystical rituals on rooftops.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com> wrote in
> Samy Merchi samy@iki.fi wrote:

>> Bad news: practically EVERYTHING has a potent ranged attack, so
>> you're not really escaping any damage this way.
> 
> Again, Samy is such a tool he doesn't realize "Hover" is also a
> defensive buff which he can enhance.

Or rather, you're on such an obsessive crusade over me that you assume 
incorrect things over and over again.

I'm well aware that its defensive aspect can be enhanced; personally, I 
have chosen to enhance the flight speed instead since Hover is painfully 
slow otherwise. I could see other people emphasizing the defensive aspect 
though, but I suspect that would take a lot of enhancements since I, at 
least, keep being hit constantly even when I'm in the air. Perhaps I should 
have phrased my sentence, 'You're only escaping a minuscule amount of 
damage this way.' That would be more correct, since the issue is so 
important to you.

You enjoy using words like 'tool' and 'buffoon', do you not? How old are 
you?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in

>>How are you supposed to notice an increase in flight speed, for
>>example? Do you actually get a stopwatch and time how long it takes
>>you to get from place A to place B?

> You don't need a stopwatch.   
> The difference between hover with no speed increase and a 10 flight
> speed increase is very noticeable.

I'm impressed that you can 'very' notice an eight percent increase in 
speed. Could you tell which car moved at 10mph and which at 11mph, if you 
didn't see them side by side, too?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Xocyll <Xocyll@kingston.net> wrote in 

> Which is nice since some of those areas are pretty big (Circle of thorns
> caves) and it's a real pain to find every last goon.

No kidding. That's without a doubt the biggest reason why I avoid Door 
missions when soloing. They're so damn big, and going for an hour at worst 
without seeing a single other player is just creepy in an MMORPG. I get a 
claustrophobic feeling at something like that.

Oddly enough it never bothered me much in games like NWN official 
campaigns. Maybe because I had a henchman along.

I enjoy Door missions when with a group though.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Ben Sisson <ilkhanikeDIESPAM@yahoo.ca> wrote in

> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.

I strongly agree with this sentiment. In many D&D games, like ToEE, NWN, 
IWDs and BGs, one of the things I loved the most is that there was a solid 
feel of the character growing in power and becoming more epic in feel and 
scope. At one point, she's getting her butt handed to her by a group of 
kobolds -- later in the game, she's bulldozering through hordes of Frost 
Giants. At the risk of being labelled a powergamer, I do have to say that 
it feels really damn cool to watch the character grow in that aspect (which 
isn't to say I don't enjoy characters growing in other aspects as well).

But in CoH, at level 2 you fight street thugs and robots -- at level 10, 
you fight street thugs and robots.

Admittedly it looks like the enemies *are* slowly changing; Circle of 
Thorns, for example, I haven't seen players under level 5 tangling with 
them, so they're for when you graduate a little higher from your starting 
level. Hydrae are insane tough, intended for like, level 10+ characters. 
And I'm sure, from what I've heard, that there are even bigger 
beasties/factions in store for even higher levels. I do worry though 
whether those are just going to be more of the same old, same old, with 
graphics and names changed, serial numbers filed off.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in

> In theory, things have different resistances to the different
> elements. 
> In practice, Mental Blast works on robots [grin].

I know. :(

I think in practice as well, there's some *very minor* effects of being 
more or less vulnerable to specific types of attacks. I seem to recall some 
kind of comments in that vein, like Hellions being vulnerable to cold or 
something of that vein. But if this was indeed implemented, then it, as I 
have found the enhancements, have so little effect as to be negligible.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in

> You should notice that you get from place to place faster than you did
> before -- in short, you spend less time in transit.

> I notice that I don't seem to miss as often when I stick accuracy on 
> generally inaccurate powers -- such as my Mental Blast and Subdue ones
> on my Defender.

> I notice that I get more shots in before he starts moving again.

Allan, with all due respect, I'm curious whether you see a difference 
between the first two, and the last one?

Because to me, the last one has an obvious intuitive mechanism for telling 
how much things have changed -- you can count the number of blows you get 
to put in, in the time the enemy is held. The first two hold no equally 
obvious and intuitive way of measuring the change caused by the 
enhancements, unless you use the aforementioned methods of stopwatching or 
making statistics of your hit ratio. I can believe that some people would 
be so perceptive as to be able to tell the difference even without such 
methods -- I am not. That's not what I'm asking though. I'm just asking the 
following: Can you agree with me that the third one is much easier to tell 
the difference on, than it is with the first two?

That's all I'm really saying: that with powers like the first two, it all 
comes down to gut feeling. With some powers though, like your third 
example, you get something tangible to measure against.

Are we in disagreement?

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in

>> I wouldn't expect you to mind, because one battle isn't going to
>> matter one whit in the long run of things. Which is indeed very well
>> reflected on an OOC level by the fact that you get like 5-20xp per
>> win when you need several thousands to level, if not more.
> 
> Ah, this is player logic, not hero logic.  If I'm out trying to learn
> to use my powers, you are stinting my improvement.  That "improvement"
> is IMPLEMENTED by XP, and so you stop me from improving.  That would
> be irritating.

But someone who takes one fight away from you is taking away a few dozen 
XP at the *most*. That's something you can recover in a couple of 
*minutes* of running around and fighting mobs. I personally don't 
understand this attitude at all.

Now, I can understand if the offending player followed you around without 
permission and killed everything near you to prevent you *repeatedly* 
from obtaining XP. A prolonged effort to slow down your development. In 
IC terms, this would be something like an annoying sidekick that the 
mentor doesn't want to have around and who is hindering the mentor. I can 
totally understand something like this being annoying both from an IC and 
OOC perspective.

But a single fight? That's *nothing*. It's *navel lint*. I boggle at the 
people who blow a gasket over something like that.

>> Missing out on a few wins 
>> certainly doesn't make one whit of difference. I can sort of see this
>> argument working at levels 2-3 when you only need a couple hundred to
>> level, but still.
> 
> Well, so far, that's when I griped about it.  And mobs are hard to
> find. 

I've found mobs exceedingly easy to find, actually. But we probably have 
differing opinions on what, exactly, is 'easy'. For myself, it's rare 
that I can run for 2-3 minutes straight around the city without running 
into a single enemy. Usually hitting a new mob group takes anything from 
15-60 seconds for me. I spend more out-of-combat time goofing off and 
healing and managing my inventory than I do actually looking for stuff to 
defeat. To me, that's quite easy. It feels like whenever I want to hit 
something, I can certainly find it.

It gets more complicated and annoying when you're on a mission looking 
for a specific *faction* of villain, but if there's no such clause, then 
I've found mob-hunting quite easy.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

-- 
Samy Merchi | samy@iki.fi | http://www.iki.fi/samy | #152235689
Reader of superhero comic books, writer of superhero fanfiction
"*Astrolabe*...whirls...*twirls*!"

Ben Sisson wrote:
> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Alas (for you) the argument was made that if you criticized CoH for
>>>*any* reason, you must be one of those people.
>>>
>>>It was the case.
>>
>>Nope.  He directed it at the poster.  Perhaps you can't tell when 
>>something is directed at an individual or a group?
> 
> 
> Can you? His statement was clearly general since he used it against
> multiple people, some of which had not really given specific opinions
> on the game at all other than to defend those with complaints.

Obviously you missed this part of the response:

 >I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
 >assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
 >like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
 >to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back

So you thus DON'T think that the "Clogar" and the "he" here reference a 
specific person?  What then WOULD specify a specific person?

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>>>>>First hint: there is no perfect game.
>>>>
>>>>First hint: Don't claim that someone says something when the quote you 
>>>>supply doesn't support it.
>>>
>>>
>>>Repeated:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>
>>>
>>>So much for that 'hint'.
>>
>>Repeating what you said:
>>
>>
>>>>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>>>>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>>>>>all
>>
>>Show me where he said that there was no negatives to the game at all. 
> 
> 
> "The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
> wrong. Factually wrong."

And WHICH post was that in?  Certainly not the one you quoted as if it 
proved your point, not was it.

(Surely you can see that since what you claimed proved your point is 
quoted twice above).

Heck, even if you HAD posted that one the "mostly just wrong" eliminates 
your point that he said that there were no negatives.

> 
> 
> 
>>He found the other poster's arguments about the negatives invalid, but 
>>that's a far cry from saying there are no negatives to the game at all.
> 
> 
> Not true. It does indeed say that.

Not what you quoted and repeated as if it proved your point.  I am not 
responsible for other posts that I may or may not have read.

> 
> 
> 
>>>>>and that anyone who claims there is is "factually wrong", in his
>>>>>words.
>>
>>He, of course, never used the term "factually wrong", and instead 
>>commented on "not based on reality".
> 
> 
> "The bad so far has very little basis and is mostly just
> wrong. Factually wrong."
> 
> So much for THAT.

And again, which post was that in?  Surely not in the section you threw 
out and quoted at me as if it proved your point, since that's quoted 
twice above and that statement is clearly not included.

What's the matter?  Can't keep your posts straight?

I wouldn't harp on this except for your sanctimonious attitude as if 
you've proven obvious points that you never proved.



> 
> 
> 
>>>>>And then he goes on to denigrate anyone who likes something
>>>>>different, calling all the people who like the other mmorpgs the "no
>>>>>life crowd
>>
>>Hardcore MMORPGs can be accurately called "no life crowd", since they 
>>spend all their time playing the MMORPG.
> 
> 
> This is just plain wrong. There are numerous examples of people in
> this very newsgroup who are obviously not hardcore players, but they
> are playing mmorpgs that you and he are classifying as hardcore. The
> blanket statement that they are "no-lifers" because they play EQ or
> DAoC remains as idiotic as it was then.

Um, Ben?  Perhaps you have forgotten but I PLAY DAOC!  And it's clear 
that there's more of a focus in those games on the hardcore gamers than 
there is on the casual.  NEITHER of us asserted that anyone who plays 
those games is a no-lifer or even a hardcore gamer.  That's just a 
deluded fantasy conjured up by your feverish mind in an attempt to 
justify or find offense in what he and I are saying.

Okay, okay, I should have stuck the "ers" onto the end of the first 
MMORPG above.  I apologize.

> 
> 
> 
>>Even if this was a bit out of 
>>line, so what?  You yourself are not exactly noted for being the sole of 
>>non-insulting courtesy in your own responses.  This is Usenet.  Things 
>>get over-stated. 
> 
> 
> What of it? Live by the sword, die by the sword. I'm not saying he
> can't be a fanboy if he wants to be.

You miss the point.  As usual.  He might have over-stated his case and 
been more insulting than he intended.  That does not let you claim that 
he is a fanboy.

>>I do find it interesting that you dislike two of the games that shold 
>>have more mainstream appeal -- DAoC and CoH
> 
> 
> I suggest you reread my posts. Not only have I found quotes you
> claimed did not exist,

I never claimed they did not exist.  I simply said the ones you provided 
  didn't say what you claimed they said.

> I in fact appreciate what CoH is trying to do
> and don't dislike the game at all, and have posted as much. I don't
> dislike DAoC either, just Mythic. Why accuse me of beliefs I do not
> hold?

I don't know.  Perhaps you give that impression every time you use DAoC 
as an example of what an MMORPG shouldn't do.

It's possible that I've over-stated your views on CoH.

>>>>Second hint: People don't tend to bring up negatives when defending 
>>>>something they like against a hugely negative attack.  This does not 
>>>>make someone a fanboy
>>>
>>>Calling everyone expressing negatives the "no-life crowd" does.
>>
>>Yes, but again you said:
>>
>>
>>>>>Then you don't know what a fanboy is. He is not just "liking"
>>>>>something, he is declaring that there is no negative aspect to it at
>>>>>all
>>
>>No one points out negatives while defending a game against attacks. 
>>Well, except me, of course.
> 
> 
> Ad hominem arguments are not defending a game against attacks.

And did I ever say it was?  Try to keep up, Ben.  I was pointing out 
that not pointing out negatives in the game is exactly what's done when 
defending a game.

> "You
> see negatives in CoH because you have no life" is a classic ad hominem
> example and is an accurate paraphrase of his response to Clogar, and
> implied in his response to Knight37.

Missed that one, je pense.  At any rate, I consider his comments more 
accurately paraphrased as "You are a hardcore MMORPG ... ER! and are 
upset with the game because it doesn't cater to your style of gaming." 
Yep, t'was overstated, but nobody's perfect.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> That happens a lot more than we see here. It's absurdly common in
> hyped games that flop like Horizons or Shadowbane. But since no one
> here ever saw either of those in that light, we missed out. Go to the
> right place, and you can see even ex-moderators for the games'
> official forums doing that.

They all pale into insignificance next to Glitchless' Dawn fanbois.

"A COMPANY IS AT STEAK!" Hehe!

Best wiki ever: http://wiki.onlinegamers.org/index.php?Glitchless

-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>>>name shadows <shadows@rage.whitefang.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I think Colgar logged once and decided to come up with all these
>>>>>>assumptions which aren't really based on reality. It feels more
>>>>>>like he's upset MMORPGs are moving away from the "no life" crowd
>>>>>>to the mainstream crowd that want to log in when they get back
>>>>>
>>>>>>from work for a little fun.
>>>>>
>>>>>No offense but you reek of fanboy.
>>>>
>>>>Which in Ben's world translates to "Thinks that a game is better than I 
>>>>think it is".
>>>
>>>
>>>Incorrect. If you'll notice I didn't call everyone in the thread who
>>>likes CoH a fanboy, which makes your statement utterly false.
>>
>>Not necessarily.   You might have just thought it [grin].
>>
>>The evidence in the past is sufficient to think that, for the most part, 
>>you tend to call someone a fanboy who defends a game stronger than you 
>>think it should be.
> 
> 
> I considered again demanding proof but I get the impression from your
> other posts you are looking to have another go at my opinions of DAoC,
> which I'm not terribly interested in doing over again.

Then why do you bring the game up every time you want to use it to 
criticize another game?

I'm not interested in discussing that again, either, especially since 
I'm about to cancel my DAoC account in favour of CoH for a while.

> I call a select
> group "fanboy", and invariably they are those who defend a game on
> bases that don't warrant the conclusion reached.

Sounds exactly like my paraphrase, doesn't it?  After all, that's your 
opinion, ain't it?

> A typical example
> would be someone who proclaims WoW to be the "bestest evar" on the
> basis of Blizzard having made Starcraft and Diablo.

I saw that thread.  For the most part, you were complaining about people 
who said that Blizzard tends to put a lot of work into their games and 
so WoW would probably be good by saying "They haven't done an MMORPG 
before!"  Which is valid, I suppose, but not enough to invalidate that 
attitude.

  Someone who
> proclaims WoW to be the "bestest evar" and then backs it up using
> evidence from beta or established features that are logically
> connected would never ever get called a fanboy by me no matter how
> much I might disagree. And I am consistent with this to the beginning.
> I didn't call you a fanboy, or Holden, or Bob.

You COULDN'T call me a fanboy -- I complained about the game [grin].

Ah, well, perhaps it was a bit overstated.  You DO tend to jump too 
quickly at the fanboy label.

Heck, he might even BE a fanboy, for all I really know.  It just seems 
to me that you jumped WAY too quickly on that bandwagon.

> 
> 
>>>>I think his statement accurately reflects the casual gamer attitude and 
>>>>the way CoH caters to that.
>>>
>>>So, in your opinion, casual players think everyone who plays other
>>>mmorpgs or may not take to CoH is a no life loser?
>>
>>Nope.  My opinion is that casual players will take more to a game that 
>>is simpler and easier to level in and thus gain more access to 
>>higher-level content, and that CoH caters more to that.  I also think 
>>that the people who prefer the old-style, hardcore aimed MMORPGs -- and 
>>you are almost certain to be one of these -- will dislike it because it 
>>moves away from the sorts of things they like.  Which is pretty much 
>>just what he said.
> 
> 
> It's not. He didn't hedge at all. He made a global statement. He
> gathered both EQ and DAoC players up in it as well. According to
> shadows, anyone playing either of those games (and we must assume
> games like them) is a no life loser.

He never talked about PLAYING those games.  He did say that he thought 
Clogar was upset because they moved away from the more hardcore style to 
a more casual gamer oriented style of game.  Which could be valid.  Or 
maybe not.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>
>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ben Sisson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
>>>>>name "Bob Perez" <abuse@fcc.gov>:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Clogar" <clogarnot@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:40989126.5CAE@nospam.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip a very negative assessment>
>>>>>
>>>>>Many of those who call themselves "casual gamers" really fall into
>>>>>this category (casual powergamer). The true casual players don't care.
>>>>>They play and have fun. They don't feel the need to yell about how one
>>>>>game rewards people more for playing more and pump up another game for
>>>>>allowing them to be powerful without the same commitment. That's a
>>>>>characteristic of a powergamer.
>>>>
>>>>Says the person who isn't a casual gamer.  Forgive me if I, an actual 
>>>>casual gamer, takes this with a shaker of salt.
>>>>
>>>>Casual gamers complain when in order to advance to higher levels you 
>>>>have to spend a lot of time and commit to the game and when all the cool 
>>>>content -- or, at least, there's a lot of it -- is at the higher levels. 
>>>
>>>
>>>No they don't as an absolute.
>>
>>The only time they don't complain is when there is nothing interesting 
>>at higher levels for them to feel that they can't get there without 
>>playing 16 hours a day. 
> 
> 
> This is just wrong again. Who are you exactly to be speaking for all
> casual gamers, or even most? You don't seem to understand most people
> are not a part of the whining vocal minority. You are not typical of a
> casual gamer, only of the vocal casual powergamer.

Yes, I'm a casual powergamer ... who loves DAoC despite having achieved 
the grand level of what?  14?  That's probably even too high.

I am far more qualified to speak for casual gamers than you are, because 
I am one and have been championing their cause for quite some time now.

Let me use the DAoC game as an example.  RvR is the most unique thing 
about the game.  It used to take to what, level 50, to get to.  Don't 
you think that a casual gamer might be a little annoyed at the fact that 
chances are they'll never get to that content?

Personally, I liked the mythologies, and so liked the game.  But I still 
did feel some annoyance at missing out on the supposed best parts ...

> 
> 
> 
>>>Some do... the casual powergamers who
>>>are frustrated that other people got power or items that they can't
>>>get.
>>
>>If that's all that good high-level content means to you, then you'd be 
>>right about casual powergamers.  Fortunately, most good high-level 
>>content is more like new areas, new cool powers and abilities, and new 
>>story-arc missions.
> 
> 
> Oh please. I gave a couple examples, it wasn't a comprehensive list.

Ah, but the examples you chose are indicative.  You chose examples that 
lended themselves to the powergaming attitude, and avoided the examples 
that lended themselves to someone wanting to enjoy the story and 
features, and not just getting the "phat lewt".   So your examples 
ignore casual explorers and -- my personal viewpoint -- casual people 
who want to enjoy the story of the world.  Yet those two cases surely 
are not powergamers.  Surely they are not levelling for the sake of 
levelling and getting more powerful -- which is the definition of 
powergamer, it seems to me -- but are levelling because it gets them to 
other game content.

Taking this to CRPGs, if someone, say, used tricks to level up faster 
and be more powerful simply so that they could have an easier time 
making it through the game and experiencing the story, would that make 
them a powergamer?

You DO jump to conclusions WAY too quickly.

> 
> 
> 
>> And don't you think that casual gamers might feel 
>>left out in games where levelling up ends up being something that takes 
>>16 hours a day?
> 
> 
> To most casual players, where they end up on their limited playtime
> *is* "new areas, new cool powers and abilities, new story-arc
> missions". It's just not the same ones the hardcore players are
> playing.

Hmmmm.  Since you can only get to those areas and get those abilities 
and get those arcs by levelling up enough to be able to select them or 
survive in them, I wonder which games -- besides SWG -- you could be 
referring to that let this happen.

> 
> The casual players who want the same ones as the hardcore players are
> playing, but complain at the effort to get them, are the casual
> powergamers. And contrary to what you seem to believe, most casual
> players are not whining bitches. Most don't care. Most just play and
> have fun.

Well, the "whining bitches" line is YOUR own view.  It isn't mine.  I 
simply think that it annoys them, and that they appreciate a game that 
let's them experience the new and higher-level areas in the limited time 
they have available.

Like I said, what "different" things can they get, in which games, than 
the hardcore players?

> 
> 
>>>Envy is such an ugly thing. It leads people to post blanket
>>>statements like "the people posting negatives about CoH are no life
>>>losers playing 16 hours a day".
>>
>>Actually, the argument was "this person posting negatives about CoH is a 
>>no life loser used to playing 16 hours a day and whining incessantly 
>>when a more basic game comes along that lets people who play 2 - 4 hours 
>>a day have fun."
> 
> 
> I saw no whining from Clogar or the others.

That was his opinion of it.  Doesn't he have the right to the same 
opinion on who's whining as you do, no matter how wrong you both may be?

> I see a lot of whining
> from the casual powergamers here who feel the need to knock people who
> played the "less basic" games.

And who is that?  Remember, I LIKE DAoC.

> 
> 
> 
>>>But most the casual players don't give a shit. They aren't envious, or
>>>jealous. They see no need to insult the people who play a lot. They
>>>play to have fun. They do have fun in CoH I don't doubt it. What they
>>>don't do is worry about how powerful everyone else is or post how
>>>finally they can compete with the "uber" crowd.
>>
>>Again, you miss the point.  They post that finally they might have a 
>>shot at getting at all that cool high-level content that everyone says 
>>is so good.
> 
> 
> Most don't do that at all. You're confusing the vocal minority with
> the majority again.

Are you saying, then, that the high-level content in most MMORPGs is no 
good and not worth playing?  Because if you aren't, then anyone who 
didn't want to be able to get there is a complete moron.

Do you think most casual gamers are complete morons?

> 
> Once again I'm forced to ask why you feel you're a spokesman for all
> these casual gamers when most do not behave the same way you do?

How would you know?  I'm the epitome of the casual gamer.  Well, except 
for the fact that I create characters to roleplay them, and so gimped my 
DAoC paladin, but there you go.

Again, if you looked really closely at whatever sources you think you 
have about casual gamers, you'd see they agree with my basic stance, 
which is -- wait for it -- MMORPGs are fun but we'd really like a way to 
get to the end game high-level cool content that it takes too much time 
for us to get to in most games.

> 
> 
>>>As I said, those are
>>>characteristics of a subclass: the casual powergamer, the whiniest
>>>species on the planet and the scourge of mmorpg development. "I want
>>>everything, now, for minimal effort, because I can only play once a
>>>month for half an hour and its not fair!"
>>
>>If an MMORPG is going to advertise that the best things are all at 
>>high-levels -- like DAoC's R vs R, the only really unique thing about it 
>>-- then the fact that getting there takes so long that you pretty much 
>>almost have to dedicate all your spare time to the game to get there, 
>>they should expect people who don't have that much time to devote to it 
>>to feel that they are missing out on things.
> 
> 
> Most games don't consist of only an endgame, which makes your
> statement too simple in practice. Casual gamers enjoy the journey.

And I never said they didn't.  But the endgame is what's held up as the 
best content, and so if a casual gamer -- realizing he has no shot at 
getting there -- DOESN'T feel that they're kind of missing out, then 
they are complete morons.

It doesn't mean that they still don't find the games fun.

> 
> 
> 
>>>>A game that I can get onto and advance in to higher level content 
>>>>easily is much better for a casual gamer.
>>>>
>>>>What else is there to do in MMORPGs than advance in levels?
>>>
>>>That is like a defining statement for a powergamer, casual or
>>>otherwise. If you wanted to avoid being pigeonholed as such, that was
>>>not a good thing to say.
>>
>>One should never pigeonhold, Ben.
> 
> 
> If the shoe fits... you seem to believe all there is to do in mmorpgs
> is advance in levels. I don't agree and I don't think many here would
> either, including many of the people who should be on your side in
> this thread.

Explained below ...

> 
> 
>>Tell me what new things you can get or come across in any current MMORPG 
>>-- SWG excluded, since I think it doesn't actually have levels -- 
>>without advancing in levels?  You can't go exploring to any depth, 
>>because the high-level enemies will slaughter you.  You can't get new 
>>abilities.
> 
> 
> This is not what you said.

It is what I meant.  So since you can't gainsay my intentions, and since 
I've clarified my intentions, this point should get dropped.


>>Note that, of course, I didn't mean that levelling is the only goal in 
>>MMORPGs, but that almost every new thing you could aim for in an MMORPG 
>>relies on you levelling up.
> 
> 
> Ah okay. Backtrack accepted. It's still false. Nostromo can fill you
> in on the details of an alternative if you want.

If you're talking about A Tale in the Desert, I find the game world 
uninteresting.  So yes, there may be some exceptions, but hardly any in 
the mainstream.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> A thousand monkeys banging on keyboards posted the following under the
> name Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca>:
> 
> 
>>Ben Sisson wrote:
> 
> 
>>>Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
>>>you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
>>>you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
>>>others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
>>>
>>>A completely balanced game would be very boring!
>>>
>>
>>A completely balanced game would rely on story and other elements to add 
>>interest, and not rocking or gimping.  Personally, that's what I want, 
>>and why Diablo doesn't interest me.
> 
> 
> Story has little or nothing to do with game balance.

Again, you miss the point.

You argued that a balanced world would be boring.  I argued that a 
balanced world would have to rely on story and other elements to be 
interesting.  Which is a good thing, in my opinion.

Ben Sisson wrote:

> You still don't know what a fanboy is, or how it's used properly. It
> has more to it than "liking a game".
>
> I suggest rereading the posts that should have illuminated you.

http://wiki.onlinegamers.org/index.php?fanboi

Note that this definition refers exclusively to a more openly risable 
sub-genre of fanboi (of particular interest to LtM, who tracked upcoming 
MMORPGs) more properly referred to as a "vapourware fanboi", cf. 
http://wiki.onlinegamers.org/index.php?Dawn passim. All fanbois, however, 
are united by a desperate, burning NEED to defend the Holy Land from the 
infidel which they persue relentlessly, far over and above the call of duty 
(or of simply liking the game).
-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Ben Sisson wrote:
> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
>
> A completely balanced game would be very boring!

Personally, I thought DAoC exemplified this. You levelled in a bubble of 
competence, while above and below you monsters got weaker, but the 
difficulty of the ones you were fighting always felt exactly the same 
regardless of level. Now, I'm not a powergamer, but that just felt wrong to 
me.

-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

chainbreaker wrote:
> Ben Sisson wrote:
>> Of course a great example of this is my old nemesis Diablo 2, where
>> you always feel your power level changing in the face of the mobs
>> you're up against. At some points, you're roxxoring their boxxors. At
>> others, you feel like a complete gimp. It adds to the game, IMO.
>>
>> A completely balanced game would be very boring!
>
> I think D2's ruined a lot of us that way, and I don't understand why
> other development groups don't take the lesson to heart.

Doesn't CoH take some ideas from D2? In the sense that, unlike EQ etc where 
you can fight mano a mano against ONE blue (equally powerful) monster if 
you're lucky, both D2 and CoH make you the equal of a squad of enemies which 
you can knock around like ninepins--giving you a gratifying sense that your 
character is actually quite buff.

-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

Samy Merchi wrote:
> Personally, I think you should take the plunge, but not expect too
> much. It's not a brilliant game with everything done right, but it
> does do quite a bit of things right. Quite a bit of things wrong too,
> but then, what game doesn't? I had issues even with Freedom Force and
> that's my favorite game ever.

I'm tempted. Is the superhero name "Fan Boy" taken? That would be 
elemental/air powers, i'm guessing. ;P


-- 

>^..^<
Bernard
www.cs.uwa.edu.au/~langhb01 

"Samy Merchi" <samy@iki.fi> wrote in message
news:Xns94E36286BB4F3samyikifi@130.232.1.14...
> Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybulskie@yahoo.ca> wrote in
>
> > In theory, things have different resistances to the different
> > elements.
> > In practice, Mental Blast works on robots [grin].
>
> I know. :(
>
> I think in practice as well, there's some *very minor* effects of being
> more or less vulnerable to specific types of attacks. I seem to recall
some
> kind of comments in that vein, like Hellions being vulnerable to cold or
> something of that vein. But if this was indeed implemented, then it, as I
> have found the enhancements, have so little effect as to be negligible.

The Clockwork seem -very- vulnerable to Spectral Wounds - to the tune of
50-100% more damage.  I've been taking every Clockwork mission I can,
because of this.

Cheers,
Grant

Allan C Cybulskie wrote:
> Again, you miss the point.
>
> You argued that a balanced world would be boring.  I argued that a
> balanced world would have to rely on story and other elements to be
> interesting.  Which is a good thing, in my opinion.

I think that's sort of what Ascaron was trying for with Sacred.

Whether it was or no, they didn't achieve either a balanced or interesting
world.

-- 
chainbreaker