Hi,

The first Friday of the month is always "Release Day" at HPS but what
they have announced today is a shocker :

John Tiller will be leaving HPS and is setting up his own publishing
firm JTS.

Their first release : Kharkov '43

http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28&osCsid=c316ecd9826e7547d6b515370c5a4f24

The Good : the game is available through digital download

The Bad : DRM - the game needs to be activated upon install/patch/
transfer/crash

Rich Hamilton's blog post about it :

http://forums.gamesquad.com/blog.php?4568-rahamy

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:9df0b2ca-bb1b-4309-a143-26f884c29cf3@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
> Hi,
>
> The first Friday of the month is always "Release Day" at HPS but what
> they have announced today is a shocker :
>
> John Tiller will be leaving HPS and is setting up his own publishing
> firm JTS.
>
> Their first release : Kharkov '43
>
> http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=28&osCsid=c316ecd9826e7547d6b515370c5a4f24
>
> The Good : the game is available through digital download
>
> The Bad :

It's a tediousTillergame. 

On Dec 3, 7:58=A0am, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> <eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9df0b2ca-bb1b-4309-a143-26f884c29cf3@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Hi,
>
> > The first Friday of the month is always "Release Day" at HPS but what
> > they have announced today is a shocker :
>
> > John Tiller will be leaving HPS and is setting up his own publishing
> > firm JTS.
>
> > Their first release : Kharkov '43
>
> >http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3D28.=
...
>
> > The Good : the game is available through digital download
>
> > The Bad :
>
> It's a tediousTillergame.

Online activation with one install at a time. boo

On 3 dec, 16:08, PaulM <junk2dr...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Online activation with one install at a time. boo

That part really surprised me as HPS is busy *removing* the admitedly
feeble copy protection they have on their games.

The other thing : it's $40. Other Panzer Campaign games are $30 at
NWS, so in essence you pay $10 more for a digital download as compared
to a box with a cd.

<sarcasm>
I assume that extra $10 goes into the support and upkeep of the
activation server ...
</sarcarsm>

Anyway, not my kind of games anyway but I might have looked into a
couple of them for $20 and no DRM - his loss.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On Dec 3, 10:23=A0am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
<eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 3 dec, 16:08, PaulM <junk2dr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Online activation with one install at a time. boo
>
> That part really surprised me as HPS is busy *removing* the admitedly
> feeble copy protection they have on their games.
>
> The other thing : it's $40. Other Panzer Campaign games are $30 at
> NWS, so in essence you pay $10 more for a digital download as compared
> to a box with a cd.
>
> <sarcasm>
> I assume that extra $10 goes into the support and upkeep of the
> activation server ...
> </sarcarsm>
>
> Anyway, not my kind of games anyway but I might have looked into a
> couple of them for $20 and no DRM - his loss.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx


I just do not understand putting in on-line activation.  I'm not a fan
of that series either so absolutely no loss to me personally, but why
is there such reluctance to employee Matrix's style serial codes
instead of an on-line server activation scheme?  Had Matrix's
experience with piracy been any more problematic than any of the
server activation publishers?

Best wishes,

Doug

In article <658dfc2d-877d-4f02-921f-eef553786850
@h17g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...
> On 3 dec, 16:08, PaulM <junk2dr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Online activation with one install at a time. boo
> 
> That part really surprised me as HPS is busy *removing* the admitedly
> feeble copy protection they have on their games.
> 
Maybe that's why he's going.

I really can't imagine JT games being pirated that much though.

Holdit

-- 
"He's more underestimated than a lot of people give him credit for"
FRANK BRUNO

On 3 dec, 16:36, dougb <douglasbrun...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> I just do not understand putting in on-line activation. =A0I'm not a fan
> of that series either so absolutely no loss to me personally, but why
> is there such reluctance to employee Matrix's style serial codes
> instead of an on-line server activation scheme? =A0

Because they equate every copy of their game out there on a torrent
with a lost $50, while IRL they only lose a $50 when someone who would
otherwise have bought the game dowloads it instead.

This happens - but they never even try to figure out how many $50 they
lose by having a DRM system in the first place. Or what keeping an
activation system running plus increased support costs.

> Had Matrix's
> experience with piracy been any more problematic than any of the
> server activation publishers?

From what I gather almost all of their games get pirated to some
degree but they figured out that they'd rather get a $50 from a gamer
who hates DRM than prevent a kid in Russia on a 10 cent/week allowance
from playing their games.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

"eddysterckx@hotmail.com" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:9df0b2ca-bb1b-4309-a143-26f884c29cf3@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.co
m: 

> Hi,
> 
> The first Friday of the month is always "Release Day" at HPS but
> what they have announced today is a shocker :
> 
> John Tiller will be leaving HPS and is setting up his own
> publishing firm JTS.
> 
> Their first release : Kharkov '43
> 
> http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=
> 28&osCsid=c316ecd9826e7547d6b515370c5a4f24 
> 

That's funny considering his Kharkov '42 has a Kharkov '43 mod, 
although the developer of the mod has been involved in Tiller game 
work.  (And for Gifty:  it's a user-created scenario, too!)  

I guess in the Tiller mode this new one has a few incremental changes.

"eddysterckx@hotmail.com" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:9df0b2ca-bb1b-4309-a143-26f884c29cf3@a28g2000prb.googlegroups.co
m: 


> The Bad : DRM - the game needs to be activated upon install/patch/
> transfer/crash
> 
> Rich Hamilton's blog post about it :
> 
> http://forums.gamesquad.com/blog.php?4568-rahamy
> 
> Greetz,
> 
> Eddy Sterckx

Can't buy it.  This DRM is way too onerous.  If it were put out by HPS 
they'd already have my money (via NWS, of course).

> The Bad : DRM - the game needs to be activated upon
> install/patch/transfer/crash

Amazing. I would like to have a magic wand that transforms me into a 
programmer just to code and release a game with no DRM at all. 

> Because they equate every copy of their game out there on a
> torrent with a lost $50, while IRL they only lose a $50 when
> someone who would otherwise have bought the game dowloads
> it instead.

Something that entities like EA and the U.S. International Trade Commission 
declare false, BTW. But what do they know?

http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml 

"Vincenzo Beretta" <reckallNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:idbe3h$991$1@speranza.aioe.org: 

>> Because they equate every copy of their game out there on a
>> torrent with a lost $50, while IRL they only lose a $50 when
>> someone who would otherwise have bought the game dowloads
>> it instead.
> 
> Something that entities like EA and the U.S. International Trade
> Commission declare false, BTW. But what do they know?
> 
> http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equa
> l-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml 
> 
> 

This is from Tiller's FAQ on Downloads and Activations:

http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/shipping.php

Q: Ok, so I purchased my game, installed it, and activated it. It 
wasn't hard. But now I want to install it on a second computer I have, 
or on my work computer. Can I do that?

A: Unfortunately we have no way of distinguishing your second computer 
from a computer owned by someone else. So we can only support 
installation on a single computer at a time.


Yes, they do indeed have a way.  Why don't I just tell them, and they 
believe me?  No, because I must be lying.  Nice to know yet another 
wargame developer thinks we're thieves and liars.

Are you listening, Tiller?  You just screwed up.  Are you listening, 
Rutins?  Don't screw it up.

Also, the $40 I just saved will be applied to War in the East.  Bring 
on the Kitchen Brigades!

On Dec 3, 8:23=A0am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com" <eddyster...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> The first Friday of the month is always "Release Day" at HPS but what
> they have announced today is a shocker :
>
> John Tiller will be leaving HPS and is setting up his own publishing
> firm JTS.
>
> Their first release : Kharkov '43
>
> http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3D28..=
..
>
> The Good : the game is available through digital download
>
> The Bad : DRM - the game needs to be activated upon install/patch/
> transfer/crash
>
> Rich Hamilton's blog post about it :
>
> http://forums.gamesquad.com/blog.php?4568-rahamy
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Seems to have been a 'friendly' parting of ways:

"John TIller is still associated with HPS in that all existing
software is still supported and will continue to be updated for the
foreseeable future. All new content will go out over the new site
however"

Looks like he'll still make the existing games compatible with any new
concepts in the on-going games.

On Dec 3, 7:23=A0am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com" <eddyster...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> On 3 dec, 16:08, PaulM <junk2dr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Online activation with one install at a time. boo
>
> That part really surprised me as HPS is busy *removing* the admitedly
> feeble copy protection they have on their games.
>
> The other thing : it's $40. Other Panzer Campaign games are $30 at
> NWS, so in essence you pay $10 more for a digital download as compared
> to a box with a cd.
>
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Of course NWS is $30 + shipping (and for you Euros the VAT/Duty/Etc)
so $30 vs $40DD is a near wash and a discount over the HPS list of
$50.

I'll be curious to see how things develop over the next 6 months.

On 12/3/2010 10:23 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 3 dec, 16:08, PaulM<junk2dr...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> Online activation with one install at a time. boo
>
> That part really surprised me as HPS is busy *removing* the admitedly
> feeble copy protection they have on their games.
>
> The other thing : it's $40. Other Panzer Campaign games are $30 at
> NWS, so in essence you pay $10 more for a digital download as compared
> to a box with a cd.
>
> <sarcasm>
> I assume that extra $10 goes into the support and upkeep of the
> activation server ...
> </sarcarsm>
>
> Anyway, not my kind of games anyway but I might have looked into a
> couple of them for $20 and no DRM - his loss.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

As Dougb described, you save on shipping.  Most HPS titles are actually 
$32.99 or $34.99, but they always seem to be on sale for $29.99.  Cost 
should be about a wash, and for you I'd think shipping is a big cost 
isn't it?  The JT store works well and my download took 6 minutes.  You 
guys have been clamoring for download and here it is at nearly the NWS 
sale price.

There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at the 
Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs.  A 
lot of folks wanted to have it on their laptops too, and this now allows 
it.  Not as flexible as Matrix, but in practice it shouldn't be 
different than any serial coded game installation.  The exception is you 
have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
computer.  I can live with that.

In article <iddtgt$dg8$1@speranza.aioe.org>, a@a.com says...

> There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at the 
> Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs.  A 
> lot of folks wanted to have it on their laptops too, and this now allows 
> it.  Not as flexible as Matrix, but in practice it shouldn't be 
> different than any serial coded game installation.  The exception is you 
> have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
> computer.  I can live with that.

In theory, this should work, but there are two problems:

(1)  You have to *remember* to de-activate *all* programs with this sort 
of coding or you're screwed.  When all you have to worry about is 
PhotoShop, that's not so bad.  If everyone starts doing this shit, it'll 
be a fucking nightmare.

(2)  You have to *be able to* de-activate your programs.  That's kinda 
hard to do when your PC goes tits-up suddenly.

For me, the bottom lines is that Microsoft, Adobe, and Valve can get 
away with this; I need / want their software enough to put up with it.

John Tiller?  Selling the same frakking game he's been selling since 
1995?

Not a chance, pal.

-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Given that there are now 60-plus defeated Democrat House members
urgently seeking jobs due to Nancy Pelosi's failed leadership, we
welcome her decision to run for House Minority Leader based on her
proven ability to create jobs for Republican lawmakers."
                                         - Ken Spain

On 12/4/2010 1:02 PM, Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article<iddtgt$dg8$1@speranza.aioe.org>, a@a.com says...
>
>> There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at the
>> Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs.  A
>> lot of folks wanted to have it on their laptops too, and this now allows
>> it.  Not as flexible as Matrix, but in practice it shouldn't be
>> different than any serial coded game installation.  The exception is you
>> have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
>> computer.  I can live with that.
>
> In theory, this should work, but there are two problems:
>
> (1)  You have to *remember* to de-activate *all* programs with this sort
> of coding or you're screwed.  When all you have to worry about is
> PhotoShop, that's not so bad.  If everyone starts doing this shit, it'll
> be a fucking nightmare.
>
> (2)  You have to *be able to* de-activate your programs.  That's kinda
> hard to do when your PC goes tits-up suddenly.
>
> For me, the bottom lines is that Microsoft, Adobe, and Valve can get
> away with this; I need / want their software enough to put up with it.
>
> John Tiller?  Selling the same frakking game he's been selling since
> 1995?
>
> Not a chance, pal.
>

That scenario is described on the FAQ:
http://johntillersoftware.com/catalog/shipping.php

Specifically:

Q: But what if my old computer crashes first and I can't uninstall the game?

A: In that case, you would need to request a manual deactivation from 
support. Once they do that for you, you can then install the game on the 
new computer.

If that happens, we'll have to see if it works as intended.  Since in 
this case the developer is the publisher, and there's a track record of 
continuing support for well over a decade, I'm willing to take that 
chance.  Unlike a certain naval game where the publisher makes all the 
decisions and the developer is locked away in the closet, I think this 
system can work out well and I'm confident it will.

Regardless of the protection scheme used, I can understand that you 
wouldn't be interested.  You're on record that these games aren't your 
cup of tea, and yes it's the same Panzer Campaigns game system as those 
that preceded it.  I'm curious why Eddy has stated an interest but for 
the DRM.  You know what you're getting, and you either like the system 
or you don't, and that isn't changed.  It's only the delivery system 
that's changed to digital download that has been regularly requested on 
here, and a DRM that no one asked for but I think is livable.  That he 
modified the DRM literally overnight due to discussions about laptop 
installations is a comforting sign.

>> A: In that case, you would need to request a manual deactivation from 
>> support.

> If that happens, we'll have to see if it works as intended.

Still, I do not think that support for Tiller's games will be available 24/7 
up stat.

Case in point. A couple of years ago I installed DG. Instant fuckup. I 
contacted the "support", and nothing happened. I asked about it on the fourm 
and I was accused from being "obsessive" (waiting a couple of days will not 
ruin your enjoyment!) to being a pirate (*).

Dude, as it happens I have a job, so I have *this week-end* for playing. Or 
maybe I'm jobless but I enjoy spending the time with my girlfriend, so I 
have *this week-end* for playing. Or maybe I have *this week-end* for 
playing and the reason why is not your fucking business.

Uninstalled the game, never looked back.

(*) The irony being that, while I was being accused by Cluelesshead of 
"being a pirate" for reason unstated, I actually got a mail from SES' 
support on the lines of "Sorry for the fuckup, here is the solution". Not 
that this convinced me to play DG ever again, but it made the hassle worth 
it. 

On 3 dec, 21:57, Jaz <j...@jaz.jaz> wrote:

> Are you listening, Tiller? =A0You just screwed up. =A0

It's amazing to see the shitstorm this caused among fans of the game
on The Wargamer forum. But as John Tiller never bothers to talk to
fans in a forum, nor can even be contacted by them as he has no public
email address, I wonder how much of this is getting through to him.

Rich Hamilton is doing an admirable job trying to  smooth things over,
but it's pretty clear their fans aren't happy.

> Are you listening,
> Rutins? =A0Don't screw it up.

He is, and he won't. Remember when I complained that the Field of
Glory patches were only available from inside the game ? This in
essence means you won't be able to patch your game anymore when the
server it links to is dead and gone. Well, he said he'd look into it
and now the patches are up for download.

> Also, the $40 I just saved will be applied to War in the East. =A0Bring
> on the Kitchen Brigades!

You know what would be cool ? If we could get a developer so crazy
he'd actually put one in one of his games :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 4 dec, 01:02, Mike C <ml...@napanet.net> wrote:

> Of course NWS is $30 + shipping (and for you Euros the VAT/Duty/Etc)
> so $30 vs $40DD is a near wash and a discount over the HPS list of
> $50.

Eh, no, NWS is *very* good at "forgetting" VAT and getting his discs
past Customs without a fee so it's a $35 deal for me and I had assumed
that like every digital download shop there would be VAT on top of
that $40. You sure there isn't ?

> I'll be curious to see how things develop over the next 6 months.

Prediction : sales of Kharkov '43 will be disappointing, but that's
because everyone is pirating the game of course.

What can save his bacon is that new "Panzer Battles" line which is
getting hinted at - I think people who like his games are going to be
much more curious and interested in that game than they are in the
20th or so Panzer Campaign game

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 4 dec, 18:24, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:

> There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at the
> Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs. =A0

A band-aid on a broken leg imho.

>=A0The exception is you
> have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
> computer. =A0I can live with that.

Fair enough.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 4 dec, 23:49, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:

> I'm curious why Eddy has stated an interest but for
> the DRM. =A0

Well, for starters : I've got a couple of his ACW games and PC4War did
a comparative review of all the Panzer Campaign games as to size,
playability etc and I was willing to give one a try for $25 or so.
Same thing for the Squad Battles engine - I've heard good stuff about
the Winter War game. Then there's the new Panzer Battles line. Ok, I
admit it : I'm a curious game-engine junkie - I like to explore an
engine, see how it ticks and when the only thing that stands between
me and playing that game within the hour is a limited amount of cash,
pushing that "buy" button becomes enticing.

>=A0That he
> modified the DRM literally overnight due to discussions about laptop
> installations is a comforting sign.

That he can't even be bothered to show his face in the 2 forums his
new game and publishing company is talked about (The Wargame and the
Blitz) isn't.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 5 dec, 16:21, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reckallNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> A: In that case, you would need to request a manual deactivation from
> >> support.
> > If that happens, we'll have to see if it works as intended.
>
> Still, I do not think that support for Tiller's games will be available 24/7
> up stat.

24/7 ? - to contact support there's not even an email address - just a
web-form for you to fill out

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 6 dec, 09:30, "eddyster...@hotmail.com" <eddyster...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> It's amazing to see the shitstorm this caused among fans of the game
> on The Wargamer forum.

Copy & paste of "The best off"

"DRM sucks."

"I'm tired of being treated like a criminal by the software industry.
Too many good games out there without wanky DRM."

"all this DRM scheme is doing is reducing the number of people will
buy it. the pirates will get it anyway - if they can even be bothered
to do so. This is a big mistake - I just hope they are humble enough
to admit it and adopt a different scheme."

"If they all go to DRM I guess I'll find something else."

"I'll be danged if I tangle myself up in your newly established DRM
solution. You are free to run your shop as you see fit.  And I am free
to shop elsewhere"

"DRM...the computer game industry seal of approval for companies
headed for extinction..."

"I can spend my money elsewhere. And I do."

"I own my share of Tiller's games, but I won't buy another one with
this type of DRM--PERIOD. If John thinks that he is "protecting his
investment", I think he has totally underestimated the reaction of his
supporters. In the long term, he might have just destroyed his
investment."

"Count me out, as well. Sick of the DRM crap..."

"One of the big draws with John Tiller's titles was that you could
"load and go". They were easy to install and get into. I gladly
sacrificed graphics and other bell and whistles for the ease of play.
That is now toast and another reason why I don't see myself buying
another title with this DRM."


"I've slept on it and I still don't like the license concept be it one
or two.  I feel the same way about Battlefront.  I've bought one of
their games, but will never do so again.  I don't like the feeling
that I'm a criminal, because I want to freely install and uninstall a
game I've bought.  The whole licensing concept makes me feel like a
criminal.  I'm "allowed" to install on two computers.  I'm "allowed"
to deactivate and uninstall to reinstall and reactivate on a different
computer.  I just don't know, but I like Rahamy and what all the
developers from JTS have done over the years.  So I'm done complaining
about this DRM decision, but I'm also done buying the games.  I'll
just look forward to getting the last few no cd patches and nvidia
fixes for my HPS titles and picking up a couple more from NWS and be
done with it all.  Good luck on the new enterprise gentlemen."


"Count me out still, being forced to go pleading to the developers for
another chance to install a game I've paid for on any new pc I might
purchase in the future if I forget to "deactivate" it on an old pc
first is not a hassle I will ever be willing to pay for, especially
when those who just download the game illegally will also be free of
the hassle heaped upon the loyal customers. Being told when, where and
how often I can install a game I purchase ON MY OWN COMPUTERS ( or how
many I can have my purchased game installed on at a time) by the game
developer is not something I will ever put up with. There are a few
things in life necessary for survival (at least in the modern sense)
that we may sometimes have to pay for while feeling like a sniveling,
whipped dog, but entertainment is NOT one of them."


"I won't buy another game with this DRM. I was ripped off by
Battlefront....and I won't forget that...ever...and there are many
like me out there. Sad to see this with you guys...you were one of the
very few that seemed to know what you were doing... So...good luck HPS/
JT...you'll need it... DRM...the computer gaming industry's seal of
approval for software companies working hard to become extinct..."

"Same thing I'll say I sdaid and stand by from my experience in real
life and with SES. Small companies can't be depended on to manage
their own DRM systems. SES's was fairly buggy on release of DG and
initially they were somewhat responsive.  But later on it has taken
longer and longer to get a response from them on DRM issues.  And
there have been quite a few. My old software company did away with DRM
on a evry expensive SW product because of the cost, risk, and effort
to maintain the DRM system and customer support for DRM.  Our costs
tripled and customers demand immediate reaction on DRM problems.  I
think SES has learned that the hard way."

"I will follow Arizona Tank's lead, and will no longer make impulse
purchases from companies with marketing/DRM policies I don't like."

"am not happy with the new DRM policy, so I do not believe I will be
buying any new titles as long as that is in place.  Do I believe that
this will make a difference in the JT policy? Unfortunately, not
really.  However, I do believe that if I continue to buy the new
titles certainly the DRM will be here to stay. Am I really doing
anything but depriving myself of a series I have immensly
enjoyed....probably not, but this is the only way that I know of to
have a meaningful communication with JTS.  Keep my money in my pocket,
hope that many others will do likewise and we can get the policy
changed."

"One thing to point out is SES's and Tiller's refusal to have a forum
to report problems.  When you have MY game dependent on YOUR servers
to run, you better be sitting in front of that server 24 hours a day
to keep it running and handle any problems I have.  When you have an
issue with SES's DRM, I have seen people wait over a week for a
response."

"This new JT DRM policy gives me the excuse to cease purchasing any
more games (certainly from JT, possibly from anybody).  So, by saving
me money, I might say:  Thank you, JT & co.!"

"with this model.. I'm not purchasing anymore Tiller Titles! Don't
'screw' your paying 'fan base'!"

"As far as I'm concerned all Tiller did was cut his own throat. I
won't be purchasing any titles with that kind of DRM. I don't like
limits and I don't like asking for permission to use something that I
buy. Another great series of games down the toilet due to DRM. What
happened to the idea of when you spent money for something it was
yours? One other thing. Why isn't Tiller on here explaining how the
system works? He wants our money but doesn't feel the need to
communicate with us directly. It's always second hand through a
spokesperson. Tell ya what I'm going to do. I'm gonna get in touch
with Chris Dean at NWS, get the titles I'm missing in my collection
and then forget all about Tiller. Companies, publishers and developers
that use DRM systems that limit a customer who purchased a product
deserve to be forgotten."

-

It's a bit weird reading all the same arguments you saw in here years
ago when The Wargamer crowd were still going "DR - what ?" I guess by
now enough of them have experienced what it's all about, so just for
good measure : we told you so ! :)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

> PC4War did a comparative review of all the Panzer
> Campaign games as to size, playability etc and I was
> willing to give one a try for $25 or so.

I have a couple of them plus Fulda '85, and I actually like the small to 
medium size scenarios. "Relaxing" is the word I would use (also: "games for 
airports" :^D). What kills them is the full price for each new entry: 
unaccettable. 

On 6 dec, 11:22, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reck...@homail.com> wrote:
> > PC4War did a comparative review of all the Panzer
> > Campaign games as to size, playability etc and I was
> > willing to give one a try for $25 or so.
>
> I have a couple of them plus Fulda '85, and I actually like the small to
> medium size scenarios. "Relaxing" is the word I would use (also: "games f=
or
> airports" :^D). What kills them is the full price for each new entry:
> unaccettable.

So you buy a couple and then no more. That's why I think that over the
years the sales numbers of the "new" releases have declined seriously,
triggering a "we must do something about piracy" response.

I mean, I just counted them : this is the *19th* game in the Panzer
Campaigns series. I'm sure there are hard-core people out there who
have them all, but most casual wargamers won=92t.

Something tells me John Tiller had better waited with this until his
new Panzer Battles game was ready to be released. The lure of a new
series might have outweighed the suckiness of the DRM for many fans of
his style of games.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 13:02:32 -0500, Giftzwerg
<giftzwerg999@hotmail.com> wrote:

>In article <iddtgt$dg8$1@speranza.aioe.org>, a@a.com says...
>
>> There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at the 
>> Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs.  A 
>> lot of folks wanted to have it on their laptops too, and this now allows 
>> it.  Not as flexible as Matrix, but in practice it shouldn't be 
>> different than any serial coded game installation.  The exception is you 
>> have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
>> computer.  I can live with that.
>
>In theory, this should work, but there are two problems:
>
>(1)  You have to *remember* to de-activate *all* programs with this sort 
>of coding or you're screwed.  When all you have to worry about is 
>PhotoShop, that's not so bad.  If everyone starts doing this shit, it'll 
>be a fucking nightmare.
>
>(2)  You have to *be able to* de-activate your programs.  That's kinda 
>hard to do when your PC goes tits-up suddenly.
>

Let me add a 3rd potential problem to this. Tiller is basically a
1-man (programmer) company, correct? 

What happens if the guy drops dead of a heart attack tomorrow? 

I would think that the Tiller fans would be a lot more worried about
the potential pitfalls of DRM than your average gamer. From what I've
read, a lot of them own 20+ of the tiller titles so if they were to
buy his DRM infected games at that same rate, we're talking about a
pretty big investment that's dependent on one guy. 

Rgds, Frank

On 6 dec, 15:22, Frank E <fakeaddr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Dec 2010 13:02:32 -0500, Giftzwerg
>
>
>
>
>
> <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <iddtgt$dg...@speranza.aioe.org>, a...@a.com says...
>
> >> There was a big discussion about the single computer installation at t=
he
> >> Blitz, and JT changed it overnight to allow 2 simultaneous installs. =
=A0A
> >> lot of folks wanted to have it on their laptops too, and this now allo=
ws
> >> it. =A0Not as flexible as Matrix, but in practice it shouldn't be
> >> different than any serial coded game installation. =A0The exception is=
 you
> >> have to uninstall before you reinstall on another
> >> computer. =A0I can live with that.
>
> >In theory, this should work, but there are two problems:
>
> >(1) =A0You have to *remember* to de-activate *all* programs with this so=
rt
> >of coding or you're screwed. =A0When all you have to worry about is
> >PhotoShop, that's not so bad. =A0If everyone starts doing this shit, it'=
ll
> >be a fucking nightmare.
>
> >(2) =A0You have to *be able to* de-activate your programs. =A0That's kin=
da
> >hard to do when your PC goes tits-up suddenly.
>
> Let me add a 3rd potential problem to this. Tiller is basically a
> 1-man (programmer) company, correct?

Correct. Though the scenario/map creation process is outsourced to
people, he just slightly adapts and upgrades the engine to cater for
special needs which crop up in a new environment.

> What happens if the guy drops dead of a heart attack tomorrow?

Two possibilities :

1) His relatives keep incurring the costs of the activation server &
support for another 10 years, out of the kindness of their hearts.

2) They'll unplug it coming home from the funeral.

Sure, I'm being sarcastic, but I'm a realist too.

> I would think that the Tiller fans would be a lot more worried about
> the potential pitfalls of DRM than your average gamer. From what I've
> read, a lot of them own 20+ of the tiller titles so if they were to
> buy his DRM infected games at that same rate, we're talking about a
> pretty big investment that's dependent on one guy.

And it's not like he's a spring chicken with nothing to worry about
for decades. He's close to 60.

But even if we don't assume the worst - what if one day he's just
tired of it all - every good campaign has been done, new titles see
diminishing returns and he just wants to retire and go fishing just
like Major H got tired of further developing TacOps and finds new
hobbies and interests ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

What a lucky "industry" this is.  Eloquent, reasonable customers more
than willing to take time to give clear feedback *for free*.

On 6 dec, 16:06, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com" <ryandyl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What a lucky "industry" this is. =A0Eloquent, reasonable customers more
> than willing to take time to give clear feedback *for free*.

LOL - spot on - I've got a brother in law who's a Unilever marketeer -
when they launch a new product (and they do this all the time) and it
bombs they spend time and money trying to figure out what went wrong -
nobody is telling them for free that it had the wrong taste or was too
expensive or came in the wrong kind of container or ... a thousand
more things. But here dozens of fans of the game are stating a
*single* reason as to why they're not spending their money on the
product - for free - marketeers would kill for that sort of
customers :)

JR has hinted that SES would do away with their DRM - I'm taking it
with a trainload of salt until I see what he's cooked up this time -
but at least he has figured out this DRM thingie, meant to fight
pirates, has serious side-effects such as pissing off customers who
then become ex-customers and continuous hardware and support costs. He
may also have looked at how many sales he made in Russia and China now
that he made it so they couldn't pirate his game. Probably enough to
do the groceries once.

Wargame developers should consider this : If JR, the man with the
deepest pockets in the business, is reconsidering DRM, is it *really*
a good idea ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

> Something tells me John Tiller had better waited with this
> until his new Panzer Battles game was ready to be released.

BTW, I wonder how Panzer Battles will differ from the Campaign Series: same 
UI, same scale... And the CS benefits both from a number of very good 
patches with added contents by Matrix and more available scenarios than one 
could play in his live - all of this at semi-bargain price. 

"eddysterckx@hotmail.com" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:dee15f8e-213d-46ab-af39-d9834621e4d6@j19g2000prh.googlegroups.co
m: 


> It's a bit weird reading all the same arguments you saw in here
> years ago when The Wargamer crowd were still going "DR - what ?" I
> guess by now enough of them have experienced what it's all about,
> so just for good measure : we told you so ! :)
> 
> Greetz,
> 
> Eddy Sterckx

Warning:  this gets a bit sentimental, but it's Christmas!

I ordered an HPS game from NWS once, and Chris mucked something up, and 
sent out two copies (in two separate packets).  I sent him a note 
telling him, and asking what I should do.  He asked me to send the 
extra copy back to such-and-such address.  I did, at my own cost (no 
big deal Chris, don't try to fix this, really, it's just a small 
contribution to the hobby, it was only shipping).

Chris replied, saying that isn't it great to be part of such a 
community,  wargamers are the best community.

I know I'm blowing my own horn here...but I'm pretty sure I'm not the 
only wargamer Chris has dealt with.  But also, given Chris's attitude 
and his track record, I'd just about crawl over broken glass for him.  
I think I'll buy one of his games, just 'cause I'm feeling good about 
Chris Dean and NWS (I already did that this weekend for Matrix), and I 
like the hobby and the guys who make the games for us.

Now, he's a developer and seller, and thinks the wargaming community is 
the best.  Don't the guys at JTS notice this???  Or is their community 
somehow drastically different??  Because JTS sure is treating their 
customers different.

ades. He's close to 60.
>
> But even if we don't assume the worst - what if one day he's just
> tired of it all - every good campaign has been done, new titles see
> diminishing returns and he just wants to retire and go fishing just
> like Major H got tired of further developing TacOps and finds new
> hobbies and interests ?
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

That was pretty well addressed on the store FAQ:

>Q: Activation requires that I be able to connect to the John Tiller Softwa=
re server over the Internet. What happens if John Tiller Software goes out =
of business and there isn't a server to connect to?

>A: We have been developing computer wargames since 1995 and almost all of =
the products developed since that time are still being sold and supported. =
We have demonstrated a unique ability to remain in the challenging wargame =
industry for the long term, but if what you say does happen, it is our comm=
itment to our customers to release updates to all of our products that woul=
d not require activation.

He is not some shifty fly by night operation that pops up every few
years, so I would think a bit more trust worthy.

> Now, he's a developer and seller, and thinks the wargaming community is
> the best. =A0Don't the guys at JTS notice this??? =A0Or is their communit=
y
> somehow drastically different?? =A0Because JTS sure is treating their
> customers different.

I had the same experience with the guy at AGEOD.  I sent in bug
reports to him, along with my hearty congratulations on a game as fine
as BOA.  He thought it was a wonderful community, where people took
the time to document bugs AND congratulate him on the game design at
the same time.  And I thought, yeah I do that because I am interested
in the development of wargames.  There's many more joe ordinary gamers
like me who try to help and encourage, and who go a long way further
in helping devs than I do indeed.  It is a decent bunch of customers
because they love good products and want to see more of them.

A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, and
mutual gain.  I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual gain.

And it work both ways.

Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
you.

In article <88c6a336-e2c2-4b99-8541-
97fc299f087b@d24g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, mlcox@napanet.net says...

> >Q: Activation requires that I be able to connect to the John Tiller Software server over the Internet. What happens if John Tiller Software goes out of business and there isn't a server to connect to?
> 
> >A: We have been developing computer wargames since 1995 and almost all of the products developed since that time are still being sold and supported. We have demonstrated a unique ability to remain in the challenging wargame industry for the long term, but if what you say does happen, it is our commitment to our customers to release updates to all of our products that would not require activation.
> 
> He is not some shifty fly by night operation that pops up every few
> years, so I would think a bit more trust worthy.

Is this nifty promise in the EULA?  

Not.

-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Given that there are now 60-plus defeated Democrat House members
urgently seeking jobs due to Nancy Pelosi's failed leadership, we
welcome her decision to run for House Minority Leader based on her
proven ability to create jobs for Republican lawmakers."
                                         - Ken Spain

On 12/6/2010 3:47 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 5 dec, 16:21, "Vincenzo Beretta"<reckallNOS...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> A: In that case, you would need to request a manual deactivation from
>>>> support.
>>> If that happens, we'll have to see if it works as intended.
>>
>> Still, I do not think that support for Tiller's games will be available 24/7
>> up stat.
>
> 24/7 ? - to contact support there's not even an email address - just a
> web-form for you to fill out
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

The email receipt for the game comes from 
support@johntillersoftware.com, and that's what Rich said to use in the 
WG forum.  Still, it should be posted on the Contact Us page too.

On 12/6/2010 7:08 PM, Giftzwerg wrote:
> In article<88c6a336-e2c2-4b99-8541-
> 97fc299f087b@d24g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, mlcox@napanet.net says...
>
>
> Is this nifty promise in the EULA?
>
> Not.
>

He doesn't need to.  He's already been supporting the same game since 
1995, right?  That's 16 years of proof.  ;-)

On 12/6/2010 3:46 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 4 dec, 23:49, DirkG<a...@a.com>  wrote:
>
>> I'm curious why Eddy has stated an interest but for
>> the DRM.
>
> Well, for starters : I've got a couple of his ACW games and PC4War did
> a comparative review of all the Panzer Campaign games as to size,
> playability etc and I was willing to give one a try for $25 or so.
> Same thing for the Squad Battles engine - I've heard good stuff about
> the Winter War game. Then there's the new Panzer Battles line. Ok, I
> admit it : I'm a curious game-engine junkie - I like to explore an
> engine, see how it ticks and when the only thing that stands between
> me and playing that game within the hour is a limited amount of cash,
> pushing that "buy" button becomes enticing.
>
If you tried the ACW games, they're all the same sausage since 1995, or 
so I've read...

In article <idk0nd$lde$3@speranza.aioe.org>, a@a.com says...

> > Is this nifty promise in the EULA?
> >
> > Not.
> >
> 
> He doesn't need to.  He's already been supporting the same game since 
> 1995, right?  That's 16 years of proof.  ;-)\

<shrug>

Why not put it in the EULA?  Nice, official, actionable contractual 
promise.

-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Given that there are now 60-plus defeated Democrat House members
urgently seeking jobs due to Nancy Pelosi's failed leadership, we
welcome her decision to run for House Minority Leader based on her
proven ability to create jobs for Republican lawmakers."
                                         - Ken Spain

On 7 dec, 02:11, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <idk0nd$ld...@speranza.aioe.org>, a...@a.com says...
>
> > > Is this nifty promise in the EULA?
>
> > > Not.
>
> > He doesn't need to. =A0He's already been supporting the same game since
> > 1995, right? =A0That's 16 years of proof. =A0;-)\
>
> <shrug>
>
> Why not put it in the EULA? =A0Nice, official, actionable contractual
> promise.

"I, John Tiller, personally guarantee that I'll remove the DRM when
I'm dead" :)

I've now slept on it and I've changed my mind : I'm now actually
extremely glad John Tiller has put DRM on his new game and I'm not
being sarcastic - here's why :

This is the 19th game in the Panzer Campaigns series so given that he
has accurate sales figures on the previous 18 that should give him a
very good idea of how many games he expects to sell.

Now, if in 3 months time that number is much, much lower than expected
I'm pretty sure that this DRM thing will fly out the window as he's
not religiously obsessed by it.

But if otoh he sells more than expected because all those pirates are
now buying this game than it proves that we're full of shit and don't
know anything.

My money is on that DRM getting ditched after some face saving time
"to better serve our valued customers and as prove we do listen to
you"

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com" <ryandyl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, and
> mutual gain. =A0I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual gain.
>
> And it work both ways.
>
> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
> you.

+1

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 6 dec, 20:02, Mike C <ml...@napanet.net> wrote:

> That was pretty well addressed on the store FAQ:

A FAQ on a website registered to a company, not a person, on a company
address, not his home address and on a website that could be gone
tomorrow. So much for personal guarantee ...

I've gone through the website but nowhere can I find a terms of sale
or EULA you can check before you buy. Did I miss it ?

> He is not some shifty fly by night operation that pops up every few
> years, so I would think a bit more trust worthy.

Well, I've been buying wargames for longer than he's been making them
so here's my solemn promise : "I will *never* make this game available
to any other person, torrent, pirate network or whatever"

Now, can I get the game without the DRM ?

No ? That's weird - why should my word be any less valid than his ?
Does he think I'm a crook ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

In article <b9a42ba1-9ca2-4010-a801-642041bef5d4
@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> I've gone through the website but nowhere can I find a terms of sale
> or EULA you can check before you buy. Did I miss it ?

I have noticed that the pro-DRM side wants to stop talking and go off 
somewhere when the question, "is this 'promise' in the EULA" comes up.

Because this comes up again and again, and we get some "FAQ" that isn't 
worth a bowl of warm spit.  

-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Given that there are now 60-plus defeated Democrat House members
urgently seeking jobs due to Nancy Pelosi's failed leadership, we
welcome her decision to run for House Minority Leader based on her
proven ability to create jobs for Republican lawmakers."
                                         - Ken Spain

On 7 dec, 10:37, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <b9a42ba1-9ca2-4010-a801-642041bef5d4
> @d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
>
> > I've gone through the website but nowhere can I find a terms of sale
> > or EULA you can check before you buy. Did I miss it ?
>
> I have noticed that the pro-DRM side wants to stop talking and go off
> somewhere when the question, "is this 'promise' in the EULA" comes up.
>
> Because this comes up again and again, and we get some "FAQ" that isn't
> worth a bowl of warm spit. =A0

Yup, they all seem mighty afraid to put that promise into any form
that could conceivably be actionable ... one wonders why ...

Anyway, as I said in another post : I don't think the DRM on his games
will still be there this time next year as it's met with hostility
everywhere and that's not good for business.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

> He may also have looked at how many sales he made in Russia and
> China now that he made it so they couldn't pirate his game.

Last summer I was talking with two Russian and a Polish journalists about 
piracy in Russia and East Europe. According to them, Steam is contributing 
more that any other "initiative" to fight piracy. Why? Because in Russia 
they couldn't afford prices of 30-50 euro for a game - so they bought the 
pirated version in the subway for five euro.

Enter Steam and their "special prices of the week" and everybody is buying. 
True, Steam is, at least partially, an overarching Nazi-DRM. The point, 
however, is that even people with modest means *buy* if they feel that the 
price/offer is fair. A scheme like SES/Tiller's one makes any kind of offer 
unfair.

I don't know if Russian players are interested in wargames (I know that 
there is a big internal market for RTS games). However, I guess that, had DG 
been sold with a serial number Matrix-style, the higher sales would have 
allowed a reduction in price by now - and, maybe, some legit sales in China 
and Russia.

That would have also meant two counts of "don't count on JR" of course. 

On 7 dec, 16:07, "Vincenzo Beretta" <reckallNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > He may also have looked at how many sales he made in Russia and
> > China now that he made it so they couldn't pirate his game.
>
> Last summer I was talking with two Russian and a Polish journalists about
> piracy in Russia and East Europe. According to them, Steam is contributing
> more that any other "initiative" to fight piracy. Why? Because in Russia
> they couldn't afford prices of 30-50 euro for a game - so they bought the
> pirated version in the subway for five euro.

SES' Russo-Japanese War was for sale in Russia, fully cracked and
burned on a nice cd which ironically used the artwork of the boxed
version from the SES website, an artwork they themselves never used
because they never released it on disc :)

This basically means people who pirated the game had and have a
*better* experience than those poor souls called "SES valued
customers"

> I don't know if Russian players are interested in wargames (I know that
> there is a big internal market for RTS games).

I know Poland has a thriving wargame community - they're even
publishing Polish language boardgames. Language is the key here : for
pc wargames to be succesful there they need to be in the local
language and affordable. Personally I think a Russian language only
version of War in the East for $10 could make a killing there. It
would be almost trivial to make sure these don't run on a non-Russian
OS so there's no need to fear that version flooding the Western
market.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

"eddysterckx@hotmail.com" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:a4972a0e-454c-4246-9c4d-72a568157981@30g2000yql.googlegroups.com
: 

> My money is on that DRM getting ditched after some face saving
> time "to better serve our valued customers and as prove we do
> listen to you"

I'm doing my part, I'm holding out.

"eddysterckx@hotmail.com" <eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:b9a42ba1-9ca2-4010-a801-642041bef5d4@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com
: 

> On 6 dec, 20:02, Mike C <ml...@napanet.net> wrote:
> 
>> That was pretty well addressed on the store FAQ:
> 
> A FAQ on a website registered to a company, not a person, on a
> company address, not his home address and on a website that could
> be gone tomorrow. So much for personal guarantee ...
> 
> I've gone through the website but nowhere can I find a terms of
> sale or EULA you can check before you buy. Did I miss it ?
> 
>> He is not some shifty fly by night operation that pops up every
>> few years, so I would think a bit more trust worthy.
> 
> Well, I've been buying wargames for longer than he's been making
> them so here's my solemn promise : "I will *never* make this game
> available to any other person, torrent, pirate network or
> whatever" 
> 
> Now, can I get the game without the DRM ?
> 
> No ? That's weird - why should my word be any less valid than his
> ? Does he think I'm a crook ?

He shoots, he scores!

On 12/7/2010 3:38 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com"<ryandyl...@yahoo.com>  wrote:
>
>> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, and
>> mutual gain.  I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual gain.
>>
>> And it work both ways.
>>
>> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
>> you.
>
> +1
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Here's some trivia you might not know.  Kharkov '43 isn't Tiller's first 
game with DRM other than Disk Check.  Battleground 9: Chickamauga 
(Talonsoft) used Safedisk.  That game wouldn't play on Win XP which came 
out shortly after it's release even though the first 8 games did. 
That's because the Safedisk DRM didn't work in XP.  When a savvy gamer 
cracked the Safedisk DRM with a patched .exe, the game was and remains 
playable in XP.  Talonsoft refused to fix it saying it was never 
promised to work on OS's after Win '98 or ME, thus making the homemade 
crack necessary.

On 8 dec, 05:49, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:
> On 12/7/2010 3:38 AM, eddyster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com"<ryandyl...@yahoo.com> =A0wrote:
>
> >> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, and
> >> mutual gain. =A0I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual gain=
..
>
> >> And it work both ways.
>
> >> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
> >> you.
>
> > +1
>
>
> Here's some trivia you might not know. =A0Kharkov '43 isn't Tiller's firs=
t
> game with DRM other than Disk Check. =A0Battleground 9: Chickamauga
> (Talonsoft) used Safedisk. =A0That game wouldn't play on Win XP which cam=
e
> out shortly after it's release even though the first 8 games did.
> That's because the Safedisk DRM didn't work in XP. =A0When a savvy gamer
> cracked the Safedisk DRM with a patched .exe, the game was and remains
> playable in XP. =A0Talonsoft refused to fix it saying it was never
> promised to work on OS's after Win '98 or ME, thus making the homemade
> crack necessary.

Didn't know that - and it's quite a damning indication of how much
"support" gamers can expect when Tiller shuts down the activation
server ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 7 dec, 23:36, Jaz <j...@jaz.jaz> wrote:

> I'm doing my part, I'm holding out.

You know what the irony is ?

War in the East, a game as easy to pirate as pie, has drawn record
crowds to Matrix, their download servers are smoking hot and they're
raking in the cash by the bucketload.

Meanwhile, the pirate-proof Kharkov '43 is getting almost nothing but
cold shoulders in all the forums.

Maybe it's just me, but I've got this feeling somebody's business plan
is more succesful than the other ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On Dec 7, 11:30=A0pm, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
<eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 dec, 05:49, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 12/7/2010 3:38 AM, eddyster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com"<ryandyl...@yahoo.com> =A0wrot=
e:
>
> > >> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, an=
d
> > >> mutual gain. =A0I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual ga=
in.
>
> > >> And it work both ways.
>
> > >> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
> > >> you.
>
> > > +1
>
> > Here's some trivia you might not know. =A0Kharkov '43 isn't Tiller's fi=
rst
> > game with DRM other than Disk Check. =A0Battleground 9: Chickamauga
> > (Talonsoft) used Safedisk. =A0That game wouldn't play on Win XP which c=
ame
> > out shortly after it's release even though the first 8 games did.
> > That's because the Safedisk DRM didn't work in XP. =A0When a savvy game=
r
> > cracked the Safedisk DRM with a patched .exe, the game was and remains
> > playable in XP. =A0Talonsoft refused to fix it saying it was never
> > promised to work on OS's after Win '98 or ME, thus making the homemade
> > crack necessary.
>
> Didn't know that - and it's quite a damning indication of how much
> "support" gamers can expect when Tiller shuts down the activation
> server ...
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

Of course, that was a decision by Talonsoft, not Mr. Tiller.  At that
point, John started releasing unofficial patches and fixes to address
XP issues on his own site - a more relevant point I think.

On Dec 7, 12:37=A0am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
<eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 7 dec, 02:11, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:


> This is the 19th game in the Panzer Campaigns series so given that he
> has accurate sales figures on the previous 18 that should give him a
> very good idea of how many games he expects to sell.
>
> Now, if in 3 months time that number is much, much lower than expected
> I'm pretty sure that this DRM thing will fly out the window as he's
> not religiously obsessed by it.
>
> But if otoh he sells more than expected because all those pirates are
> now buying this game than it proves that we're full of shit and don't
> know anything.
>

You might be interested in this note from Tiller posted on the website
this am:

*Before this endeavor started last Friday, we had no idea what to
expect. I had established a sales goal for the *end of the month that
I felt would represent undisputable success. I am delighted to report
that because of *your enthusiastic response, our first month sales
goal was achieved Tuesday.

*Our second game, a Squad Battles game, is finished and ready for
release in the near future. And we have a *very aggressive publishing
schedule established for the first half of 2011 to populate the store
with a variety of *games from many different areas.

*Thank you for ensuring that my team and I will be able to continue
our efforts well into the future.
*John Tiller
*08 Dec 2010

On Dec 8, 6:44=A0pm, Mike C <ml...@napanet.net> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 11:30=A0pm, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
>
>
>
> <eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8 dec, 05:49, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:
>
> > > On 12/7/2010 3:38 AM, eddyster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com"<ryandyl...@yahoo.com> =A0wr=
ote:
>
> > > >> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust, =
and
> > > >> mutual gain. =A0I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutual =
gain.
>
> > > >> And it work both ways.
>
> > > >> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do with
> > > >> you.
>
> > > > +1
>
> > > Here's some trivia you might not know. =A0Kharkov '43 isn't Tiller's =
first
> > > game with DRM other than Disk Check. =A0Battleground 9: Chickamauga
> > > (Talonsoft) used Safedisk. =A0That game wouldn't play on Win XP which=
 came
> > > out shortly after it's release even though the first 8 games did.
> > > That's because the Safedisk DRM didn't work in XP. =A0When a savvy ga=
mer
> > > cracked the Safedisk DRM with a patched .exe, the game was and remain=
s
> > > playable in XP. =A0Talonsoft refused to fix it saying it was never
> > > promised to work on OS's after Win '98 or ME, thus making the homemad=
e
> > > crack necessary.
>
> > Didn't know that - and it's quite a damning indication of how much
> > "support" gamers can expect when Tiller shuts down the activation
> > server ...
>
> Of course, that was a decision by Talonsoft, not Mr. Tiller. =A0At that
> point, John started releasing unofficial patches and fixes to address
> XP issues on his own site - a more relevant point I think.

Fair enough - and the URL for the Chickamauga patch is ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On Dec 8, 10:03=A0am, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
<eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 8, 6:44=A0pm, Mike C <ml...@napanet.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 7, 11:30=A0pm, "eddyster...@hotmail.com"
>
> > <eddyster...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 8 dec, 05:49, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On 12/7/2010 3:38 AM, eddyster...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > On 6 dec, 20:12, "ryandyl...@yahoo.com"<ryandyl...@yahoo.com> =A0=
wrote:
>
> > > > >> A dev and the wargamer is a relationship build on respect, trust=
, and
> > > > >> mutual gain. =A0I will say that again. Respect, trust, and mutua=
l gain.
>
> > > > >> And it work both ways.
>
> > > > >> Offer me DRM-padlocked shit, and I ain't having nothing to do wi=
th
> > > > >> you.
>
> > > > > +1
>
> > > > Here's some trivia you might not know. =A0Kharkov '43 isn't Tiller'=
s first
> > > > game with DRM other than Disk Check. =A0Battleground 9: Chickamauga
> > > > (Talonsoft) used Safedisk. =A0That game wouldn't play on Win XP whi=
ch came
> > > > out shortly after it's release even though the first 8 games did.
> > > > That's because the Safedisk DRM didn't work in XP. =A0When a savvy =
gamer
> > > > cracked the Safedisk DRM with a patched .exe, the game was and rema=
ins
> > > > playable in XP. =A0Talonsoft refused to fix it saying it was never
> > > > promised to work on OS's after Win '98 or ME, thus making the homem=
ade
> > > > crack necessary.
>
> > > Didn't know that - and it's quite a damning indication of how much
> > > "support" gamers can expect when Tiller shuts down the activation
> > > server ...
>
> > Of course, that was a decision by Talonsoft, not Mr. Tiller. =A0At that
> > point, John started releasing unofficial patches and fixes to address
> > XP issues on his own site - a more relevant point I think.
>
> Fair enough - and the URL for the Chickamauga patch is ?
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

http://web.archive.org/web/20050206235406/www.hc-llc.net/games/patches.html

Note: after John left Talonsoft started crippling the game to make
them not work with the 32 bit exe's that John was releasing.

Now I just used the wayback machine to save time. I don't know where
these patches might reside currently.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://home.hiwaay.net/~tiller/  is the
wayback entry for John's website.

>> Fair enough - and the URL for the Chickamauga patch is ?

> http://web.archive.org/web/20050206235406/www.hc-llc.net/games/patches.html

It is on Patches Scrolls too. 

On 12/8/2010 1:46 PM, Mike C wrote:

>>
>> Fair enough - and the URL for the Chickamauga patch is ?
>>
>> Greetz,
>>
>> Eddy Sterckx
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/20050206235406/www.hc-llc.net/games/patches.html
>
> Note: after John left Talonsoft started crippling the game to make
> them not work with the 32 bit exe's that John was releasing.
>
> Now I just used the wayback machine to save time. I don't know where
> these patches might reside currently.
>
> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://home.hiwaay.net/~tiller/  is the
> wayback entry for John's website.

The URL for all the Battleground patches is here: 
http://www.acwgc.org/acwco/patches.asp

That includes the final Talonsoft patches, the Tiller mod 32-bit patches 
after the Talonsoft breakup, and the Chickamauga XP fix.  Tiller used to 
host the 32bit patches for years, but it looks like he dropped the old 
site when he opened the new one.

On 12/6/2010 7:46 PM, DirkG wrote:
> On 12/6/2010 3:47 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On 5 dec, 16:21, "Vincenzo Beretta"<reckallNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> A: In that case, you would need to request a manual deactivation from
>>>>> support.
>>>> If that happens, we'll have to see if it works as intended.
>>>
>>> Still, I do not think that support for Tiller's games will be
>>> available 24/7
>>> up stat.
>>
>> 24/7 ? - to contact support there's not even an email address - just a
>> web-form for you to fill out
>>
>> Greetz,
>>
>> Eddy Sterckx
>
> The email receipt for the game comes from
> support@johntillersoftware.com, and that's what Rich said to use in the
> WG forum. Still, it should be posted on the Contact Us page too.

I found the old Tiller site with all the 32-bit upgrades including the 
Napoleon Series and Age of Sail: http://hiwaay.net/~tiller/html/program.html

On 8 dec, 22:55, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:
> On 12/8/2010 1:46 PM, Mike C wrote:
>
> >http://web.archive.org/web/20050206235406/www.hc-llc.net/games/patche...
>
> > Note: after John left Talonsoft started crippling the game to make
> > them not work with the 32 bit exe's that John was releasing.
>
> > Now I just used the wayback machine to save time. I don't know where
> > these patches might reside currently.
>
> >http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://home.hiwaay.net/~tiller/=A0is the
> > wayback entry for John's website.
>
> The URL for all the Battleground patches is here:http://www.acwgc.org/acw=
co/patches.asp
>
> That includes the final Talonsoft patches, the Tiller mod 32-bit patches
> after the Talonsoft breakup, and the Chickamauga XP fix. =A0Tiller used t=
o
> host the 32bit patches for years, but it looks like he dropped the old
> site when he opened the new one.

First things first : kudos to Mr Cox for being the first fanboy to
post actual proof of the claim that John Tiller really supports his
games.

Secondly : it was rather dumb of him to *not* put those patches on his
new site and score some pr points out of them - style "see, you can
trust me with DRM because I still support stuff I did 15 years ago"

Thirdly, this was put on his main page yesterday :

"Thank You!
Before this endeavor started last Friday, we had no idea what to
expect. I had established a sales goal for the end of the month that I
felt would represent undisputable success. I am delighted to report
that because of your enthusiastic response, our first month sales goal
was achieved Tuesday.

Our second game, a Squad Battles game, is finished and ready for
release in the near future. And we have a very aggressive publishing
schedule established for the first half of 2011 to populate the store
with a variety of games from many different areas.

Thank you for ensuring that my team and I will be able to continue our
efforts well into the future.

John Tiller
08 Dec 2010"

-

This effectively means that I was wrong and that the DRM is there to
stay. There are more lemmings in this world than I ever thought
possible. Maybe lemmings is too strong a word, but that's how it looks
from my pov. I don't put up with crap IRL, and certainly not for
entertainment stuff. Another $50 is going to make its way to some
boardgame company pretty soon.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

On 12/9/2010 2:39 AM, eddysterckx@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 8 dec, 22:55, DirkG<a...@a.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/8/2010 1:46 PM, Mike C wrote:
>>
>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20050206235406/www.hc-llc.net/games/patche...
>>
>>> Note: after John left Talonsoft started crippling the game to make
>>> them not work with the 32 bit exe's that John was releasing.
>>
>>> Now I just used the wayback machine to save time. I don't know where
>>> these patches might reside currently.
>>
>>> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://home.hiwaay.net/~tiller/ is the
>>> wayback entry for John's website.
>>
>> The URL for all the Battleground patches is here:http://www.acwgc.org/acwco/patches.asp
>>
>> That includes the final Talonsoft patches, the Tiller mod 32-bit patches
>> after the Talonsoft breakup, and the Chickamauga XP fix.  Tiller used to
>> host the 32bit patches for years, but it looks like he dropped the old
>> site when he opened the new one.
>
> First things first : kudos to Mr Cox for being the first fanboy to
> post actual proof of the claim that John Tiller really supports his
> games.
>
> Secondly : it was rather dumb of him to *not* put those patches on his
> new site and score some pr points out of them - style "see, you can
> trust me with DRM because I still support stuff I did 15 years ago"
>
> Thirdly, this was put on his main page yesterday :
>
> "Thank You!
> Before this endeavor started last Friday, we had no idea what to
> expect. I had established a sales goal for the end of the month that I
> felt would represent undisputable success. I am delighted to report
> that because of your enthusiastic response, our first month sales goal
> was achieved Tuesday.
>
> Our second game, a Squad Battles game, is finished and ready for
> release in the near future. And we have a very aggressive publishing
> schedule established for the first half of 2011 to populate the store
> with a variety of games from many different areas.
>
> Thank you for ensuring that my team and I will be able to continue our
> efforts well into the future.
>
> John Tiller
> 08 Dec 2010"
>
> -
>
> This effectively means that I was wrong and that the DRM is there to
> stay. There are more lemmings in this world than I ever thought
> possible. Maybe lemmings is too strong a word, but that's how it looks
> from my pov. I don't put up with crap IRL, and certainly not for
> entertainment stuff. Another $50 is going to make its way to some
> boardgame company pretty soon.
>
> Greetz,
>
> Eddy Sterckx

I (and probably he) figure anyone that's going to play Battleground 
games has done so by now.  I haven't seen a question about playing them 
for years, and now that Matrix redid them for Win 7 it's pretty stupid 
to buy the old versions.  I play the old ones (rarely) in a VM within 7 
so I didn't need the Matrix upgrade.

On 9 dec, 12:07, DirkG <a...@a.com> wrote:

> I (and probably he) figure anyone that's going to play Battleground
> games has done so by now. =A0

Sure. But my point was that his new business venture, and more
specifically the DRM is based on the key question : "do I trust this
guy to support his products 10 years from now ?"

That's when it becomes important to :

- be easily reachable through mail
- communicate with the fans, at least in the early stages, explain *in
person* why you go with DRM
- examine his past record of support

The fact he hasn't really caught on to all that is telling imho, but
IRL it didn't make a iota difference for the fans who lapped it all
up. Fair enough, other people, other standards of what's acceptable to
them.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx