Hi,

"Description: VBS2 US Army Lite version 1.30 is a commercial-off-the-
shelf first person game-based training platform in use by the U.S.
Army as of March 8th, 2010. The unique simulation engine provides
realistic semi-immersive environments, with large, dynamic terrain
areas, hundreds of simulated military and civilian entities and a
range of generic, geo-typical terrain areas. Most existing U.S. Army,
Marine Corps and US Air Force equipment is accurately modeled in this
game. Up to 12 persons can play each other on a network. Comes with a
scenario editor.
Screenshots: http://virtualbattlespace.vbs2.com/"

http://www.gamershell.com/download_57006.shtml

I've been informed that this software getting released to the public
actually violates the EULA - how that's going to play out (in court or
not) is anyone's guess but it's a fine indicator of what the US army
thinks EULA's are worth.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

VBS2 is an evolution of the "Operation: Flashpoint" engine (the one by 
Bohemia). Back in the day (mid 2000s) for the the base module you had to 
shell $499 or so. I remember a funny story about how it was not available in 
the States except to government institutions or other approved buyers - but 
it was freely available in the rest of the world. This meant that an Iraqi 
could buy an US Army (and Marines) training tool, but this was not allowed 
to an US citizen.

I had the opportunity to fumble with the VBS1 incarnation at 
I-do-not-remeber-which event. I got the impression that it was very 
unfriendly and "professional": more an utility than a game. However there 
was a community of players who organized MP events. They told me that it was 
slightly more mature that the average MP crowd - basically due to the price 
of the software. 

In article <30a80b9b-0ea2-4c9c-9009-
ed753e8c77da@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com 
says...
> Hi,
> 
> "Description: VBS2 US Army Lite version 1.30 is a commercial-off-the-
> shelf first person game-based training platform in use by the U.S.
> Army as of March 8th, 2010. The unique simulation engine provides
> realistic semi-immersive environments, with large, dynamic terrain
> areas, hundreds of simulated military and civilian entities and a
> range of generic, geo-typical terrain areas. Most existing U.S. Army,
> Marine Corps and US Air Force equipment is accurately modeled in this
> game. Up to 12 persons can play each other on a network. Comes with a
> scenario editor.
> Screenshots: http://virtualbattlespace.vbs2.com/"
> 
> http://www.gamershell.com/download_57006.shtml

2.2GB download, no less.

Yeah.  Whew.  Bandwidth really costs like hell these days, when a site 
has to charge the vast sum of $0.00 for a 2GB download.

Can we - at long last - throw out the notion that offering files for 
download is some sort of tragically expensive proposition?


-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Just look at what has been happening for the last three days; the so
called skeptics haven't noted it because it's not snow. But the
downpours and heavy winds are consistent with what the scientists have
long warned about."
                                        - Al Gore
"Ah, yes.  'Weather != Climate.'  Except when a warmist / alarmist finds
some weather that's .00001% off average for a specific day."
                                        - Giftzwerg

On 18 mrt, 09:57, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Can we - at long last - throw out the notion that offering files for
> download is some sort of tragically expensive proposition?

Who is still hanging on to that notion ?

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

In article <a7693e12-ef7b-47f0-adbf-30abb24fcb87
@b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> > Can we - at long last - throw out the notion that offering files for
> > download is some sort of tragically expensive proposition?
> 
> Who is still hanging on to that notion ?

Maybe we're past it by now.  But we've had any number of threads devoted 
the The Terrible Financial Burden Of Game Companies Offering Products 
For Digital Download instead of the "Put Them In A Box" method.

-- 
Giftzwerg
***
"Just look at what has been happening for the last three days; the so
called skeptics haven't noted it because it's not snow. But the
downpours and heavy winds are consistent with what the scientists have
long warned about."
                                        - Al Gore
"Ah, yes.  'Weather != Climate.'  Except when a warmist / alarmist finds
some weather that's .00001% off average for a specific day."
                                        - Giftzwerg

On 18 mrt, 12:52, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <a7693e12-ef7b-47f0-adbf-30abb24fcb87
> @b7g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com says...
>
> > > Can we - at long last - throw out the notion that offering files for
> > > download is some sort of tragically expensive proposition?
>
> > Who is still hanging on to that notion ?
>
> Maybe we're past it by now. =A0But we've had any number of threads devote=
d
> the The Terrible Financial Burden Of Game Companies Offering Products
> For Digital Download instead of the "Put Them In A Box" method.

Ooh, but that's another thing entirely - it's not so much the
bandwidth as settting up an automated system where after payment a
secure link is provided. If your webshop software can't handle this
you're looking at a cost which has not much to do with bandwidth.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

In article <62c32c71-517a-4987-b4d3-
00efad25e9be@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com=20
says...

> > Maybe we're past it by now. =A0But we've had any number of threads devo=
ted
> > the The Terrible Financial Burden Of Game Companies Offering Products
> > For Digital Download instead of the "Put Them In A Box" method.
>=20
> Ooh, but that's another thing entirely - it's not so much the
> bandwidth as settting up an automated system where after payment a
> secure link is provided. If your webshop software can't handle this
> you're looking at a cost which has not much to do with bandwidth.

Why would the system need to be automated?  Why not just use PayPal and=20
send the serial number via email?  Isn't that how NWS does it?

--=20
Giftzwerg
***
"Just look at what has been happening for the last three days; the so
called skeptics haven't noted it because it's not snow. But the
downpours and heavy winds are consistent with what the scientists have
long warned about."
                                        - Al Gore
"Ah, yes.  'Weather !=3D Climate.'  Except when a warmist / alarmist finds
some weather that's .00001% off average for a specific day."
                                        - Giftzwerg

On 18 mrt, 13:52, Giftzwerg <giftzwerg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <62c32c71-517a-4987-b4d3-
> 00efad25e...@r27g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, eddyster...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > > Maybe we're past it by now. =A0But we've had any number of threads de=
voted
> > > the The Terrible Financial Burden Of Game Companies Offering Products
> > > For Digital Download instead of the "Put Them In A Box" method.
>
> > Ooh, but that's another thing entirely - it's not so much the
> > bandwidth as settting up an automated system where after payment a
> > secure link is provided. If your webshop software can't handle this
> > you're looking at a cost which has not much to do with bandwidth.
>
> Why would the system need to be automated? =A0Why not just use PayPal and
> send the serial number via email? =A0Isn't that how NWS does it?

Depends on what service level you want to achieve. It's the instant
gratification age so someone putting in his paypal details at 02:00
*expects* to be downloading at 02:01 and an email in his inbox with
the serial number at 02:02

Frankly, if I was expecting 500 copies to sell of a wargame I'd do it
entirely manual, but if you've got 4 dozen different games and expect
thousands of sales doing it that way is insane.

Also, it depends on the security level you want. The old shareware way
of unlocking your demo with a serial number turning it into the full
product is pretty easy to setup and even automate. Everyone can
download your game from your site, upon receiving a paypal payment a
serial number is send out.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

In article <ca31187d-14ef-4425-bb8e-cf1427e497d3
@y17g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, eddysterckx@hotmail.com says...

> > > Ooh, but that's another thing entirely - it's not so much the
> > > bandwidth as settting up an automated system where after payment a
> > > secure link is provided. If your webshop software can't handle this
> > > you're looking at a cost which has not much to do with bandwidth.
> >
> > Why would the system need to be automated? =A0Why not just use PayPal a=
nd
> > send the serial number via email? =A0Isn't that how NWS does it?
>=20
> Depends on what service level you want to achieve. It's the instant
> gratification age so someone putting in his paypal details at 02:00
> *expects* to be downloading at 02:01 and an email in his inbox with
> the serial number at 02:02

There's an easy workaround for this, as you point out below; have the=20
software run in "temporary mode" for 24 hours or so - a longer period=20
than it takes to get the real keys out.  Then the user can play his game=20
in the interim and activate it when the serial key shows up.

Also, if my options are (a) wait for the US postal service to get off=20
its fat ass and waddle the thing to my house or (b) get my game tomorrow=20
morning, I'm gonna pick (b).

> Frankly, if I was expecting 500 copies to sell of a wargame I'd do it
> entirely manual, but if you've got 4 dozen different games and expect
> thousands of sales doing it that way is insane.
>=20
> Also, it depends on the security level you want. The old shareware way
> of unlocking your demo with a serial number turning it into the full
> product is pretty easy to setup and even automate. Everyone can
> download your game from your site, upon receiving a paypal payment a
> serial number is send out.

Exactly.  For something big like WITP, you just have the locked version=20
time out after "only" 300 turns.  <g>

--=20
Giftzwerg
***
"Just look at what has been happening for the last three days; the so
called skeptics haven't noted it because it's not snow. But the
downpours and heavy winds are consistent with what the scientists have
long warned about."
                                        - Al Gore
"Ah, yes.  'Weather !=3D Climate.'  Except when a warmist / alarmist finds
some weather that's .00001% off average for a specific day."
                                        - Giftzwerg

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:37:30 -0700 (PDT), "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi,
>
>"Description: VBS2 US Army Lite version 1.30 is a commercial-off-the-
>shelf first person game-based training platform in use by the U.S.
>Army as of March 8th, 2010. The unique simulation engine provides
>realistic semi-immersive environments, with large, dynamic terrain
>areas, hundreds of simulated military and civilian entities and a
>range of generic, geo-typical terrain areas. Most existing U.S. Army,
>Marine Corps and US Air Force equipment is accurately modeled in this
>game. Up to 12 persons can play each other on a network. Comes with a
>scenario editor.
>Screenshots: http://virtualbattlespace.vbs2.com/"
>
>http://www.gamershell.com/download_57006.shtml

	Oh look it's an FPS, a "shooter" as you would say Eddy, a
re-work of their popular FPS games Operation Flashpoint and ArmA 1/2!

	OH GODZ!!!!11!!1 HAVE THEY NO DECENCY ANYM0AR!111 WHATZ WRONG
WIT HEXES???

	Eddy now who would have expected that US Army would actually use
a FPS, that despicable genre, instead of somethiNg hex based, to train
their guys battlefield tactics? And I stress the word "tactics".

	Remember, I proudly play games like Red Orchestra or Battlefield
or Ghost Recon and am not ashamed to admit it. (I didn't play
America's Army and ArmA that much because I was into other games at
the moment but I respect them).

 	"Shooters and RTS crap" is how you labeled them lot :o) US Army
is using a "shooter" to train people because they think it's a TAD BIT
more realistic than any of the hex based crap tactical games you may
suggest to them.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:30:15 +0100, Oleg Mastruko
<oleg@_REMOVE_bug.hr> wrote:

> 	"Shooters and RTS crap" is how you labeled them lot :o) US Army
>is using a "shooter" to train people because they think it's a TAD BIT
>more realistic than any of the hex based crap tactical games you may
>suggest to them.

	I don't recall anyone in this thread knocking the fact it's
not hex base.  IMHO the main reason for the US Army and others to use
this type of game is to desentize troops to shooting humans.

	In WW-I in training they used giant bulls eyes as targets.
They found an X (forget what the percent was but it was high) percent
never fired there weapon in combat.  During WW-II they switch to
silolits of humans, the number that never fired there weapon in combat
drop big time.
-- 
We're in a war dammit. We're going to have 
to offend somebody. - John Adams

> I don't recall anyone in this thread knocking the fact it's
> not hex base.  IMHO the main reason for the US Army and others to use
> this type of game is to desentize troops to shooting humans.

Virtual training environments are nothing new "per se". Various armies 
started using them the late '80s (this not considering professional flight 
simulators). The VBS series has been used a lot for tactical training since 
its inception (there is a variant devoted to training for civil emergencies, 
too), and it only "happens" to have been published when a desktop or laptop 
PC became so powerful that professional training software could be run on 
it.

The equation FPS = Not Realistic come from the FPS's habit to... not being 
too realistic :o) But this is simply the path that most developers take, not 
something endemic to the FPS concept. 

On 19 mrt, 00:30, Oleg Mastruko <oleg@_REMOVE_bug.hr> wrote:

> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 "Shooters and RTS crap" is how you labeled them lot :o)

Nope - I labeled the TW series "RTS crap". And I don't think I need to
prove that point again Mr. Defender of Cherokee Battlelines.

> US Army
> is using a "shooter" to train people because they think it's a TAD BIT
> more realistic than any of the hex based crap tactical games you may
> suggest to them.

Nope - it's to train grunts, soldiers some combat basics. They use
quite different software for the thing I'm interested in : commanding
a bunch of soldiers from the overal commander's perspective (*). If
you had paid attention in the past you'd have known I like FPS games
as well but unlike some I'm not that daft to claim they're
"wargames".

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(*) There's a closed Yahoo group whose members are  professional
military trainers and course organizers who talk about training and
simulation software used in the military. It's by invitation only.

<old.salt@cmaaccess.com> wrote on 19.03.2010 03:07 GMT the message
news:17q5q55ptd0o1ok5mdfo5fl4b9ic6pb2l2@4ax.com

> In WW-I in training they used giant bulls eyes as targets.
> They found an X (forget what the percent was but it was high) percent
> never fired there weapon in combat.  During WW-II they switch to
> silolits of humans, the number that never fired there weapon in combat
> drop big time.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/contentdm/home.htm CARL' obsolete manuals
collection (420 items by now) represents a great treasure for anyone
interested in military history, they have even 19th C. publications there.
Some WW1 manuals have been adapted from British and (translated) French
sources (topical combat experience), they illustrate all kind of infantry
and other training. See e.g. list items #106 "British tactical notes.",
#109 "Cavalry notes.", #111 "Close combat weapons." and #112 "Combat
instructions." Some WW2 manuals are in fact remarkable historical works.
( I dedicate these remarks to the greater readership of this group.)

Greetings, PY 

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:42:13 -0700 (PDT), "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
<eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Nope - it's to train grunts, soldiers some combat basics. They use
>quite different software for the thing I'm interested in : commanding
>a bunch of soldiers from the overal commander's perspective (*). If
>you had paid attention in the past you'd have known I like FPS games
>as well but unlike some I'm not that daft to claim they're
>"wargames".

	Not wargames, but war historic games some of them certainly are
(that's the term in the name of this group if we want to nitpick).

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:03:21 +0100, Oleg Mastruko
<oleg@_REMOVE_bug.hr> wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:42:13 -0700 (PDT), "eddysterckx@hotmail.com"
><eddysterckx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Nope - it's to train grunts, soldiers some combat basics. They use
>>quite different software for the thing I'm interested in : commanding
>>a bunch of soldiers from the overal commander's perspective (*). If
>>you had paid attention in the past you'd have known I like FPS games
>>as well but unlike some I'm not that daft to claim they're
>>"wargames".
>
>	Not wargames, but war historic games some of them certainly are
>(that's the term in the name of this group if we want to nitpick).

	If one want's to nitpick one can just go to the "Charter" of
this NG;

CHARTER: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical

comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical is for the discussion of wargames
on the IBM PC and compatibles, using any operating system.  In this
context, wargames are those games based on historical conflicts, using
historical weapons. In general these conflicts are single battles, a
single war, or a series of battles over a few years; some hypothetical
scenarios may be included.  This group is not intended for games that
are based in alternate realities such as Red Alert, or "inspired by"
an historical period with just a few historical scenarios, such as
Imperialism or Age of Empires; they should be discussed in the
appropriate group, such as comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic. On the
other hand, games such as Panzer General 2 DO belong here, as do tank
simulations such as Armored Fist and iM1A2. Games that are mostly
about naval warfare should be discussed in
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.naval. Commercial postings should not be made,
unless they are relevant to a games discussed in the group; all
trading of games should be done in comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.marketplace

END CHARTER.

http://www.faqs.org/ftp/usenet/news.announce.newgroups/comp/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic-reorg
-- 
We're in a war dammit. We're going to have 
to offend somebody. - John Adams