f



Idle time, idle thoughts

http://ohlandl.kev009.com/SCSI/scsi_bus_competitiors.html


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0
Louis
10/16/2003 10:06:25 PM
comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware 10363 articles. 0 followers. Post Follow

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0
William
10/16/2003 11:12:56 PM
Louis Ohland schrieb:
> 
> http://ohlandl.kev009.com/SCSI/scsi_bus_competitiors.html
> 
Lacks ESDI which is a bus with up to 4 drives (according to specs)
even using the separate data and control lines like St506.
Not to mention IBMs DBA ESDI solution for the 50/55/70 series.

Gereon
0
Gereon
10/17/2003 10:29:37 AM
The DBA ESDI is akin to IDE as to the electronics being on the drive,
and none being required on the planar.

When I get some suitable diagrams I'll add it. Ante up or fold.


> > http://ohlandl.kev009.com/SCSI/scsi_bus_competitiors.html
> >
> Lacks ESDI which is a bus with up to 4 drives (according to specs) even using the separate data and control lines like St506. Not to mention IBMs DBA ESDI solution for the 50/55/70 series.

-- 
Reply to me at louis little punctuation mark ohland with the same ISP
0
Louis
10/17/2003 1:18:18 PM
Hi !

>The DBA ESDI is akin to IDE as to the electronics being on the drive,
>and none being required on the planar.

The DBA ESDI isn't "real" ESDI anyway.

It uses the existing ESDI / MFM Bios routines and was - for simplicity -
designed to be similar to ESDI, but factically it is an early draft of XT / AT
bus IDE. Due to the chip design IBM took over the ESDI controller strategy and
even the same adress / IO / device handling, because that was already supported
in the ABIOS and there was no need to re-invent the wheel again.

And while it is MCA and not ISA the whole controller nicely fits onto a 72-pin
"reduced" MCA slot connector - including all advantages like Card-ID,
auto-config and advanced diags and error-reporting as for the "full size" ESDI
controller.

Quite nice. Apart from IBM no one else jumped up on it. Conner made some drives
for that interface - but that was it.

IBM later on opted for the SCSI strategy, since the ESDI path had too many
limits. Basically a good idea - it helped quite a lot to maintain function of
the later PS/2 up to today. With the proprietary DBA interface only it would
have been more difficult.
If you look at the situation with Mod. 50, 55 and 70 / P70 for instance it gets
more and more difficult to at least keep them in working order. Not to speak of
expanding their capabilities, since the drive size limit on them is 160MB (with
the IBM drives - and about 240MB with the Conner). But even the lowest SCSI
model allowes to install at least a 1GB drive. Not too bad I'd say.



Very friendly greetings from Peter in Germany
http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm
0
peterwendt
10/18/2003 5:48:39 PM
I seem to be doing pretty well with a Sigma Data QED/70 card.  It
replaces the normal riser card into which the floppies & ESDI drive
plug in a Model 70, providing an IDE interface in lieu of the second
floppy connector.  Of course, the BIOS in my 8570-E21 doesn't
recognize it, but the Debian kernel does.

Here's the relevant point: There's virtually nothing on the card.  A
few 20-pin chips and a couple of electrolytics.
0
chip36
10/18/2003 9:04:14 PM
Hi !

>I seem to be doing pretty well with a Sigma Data QED/70 card.  It
>replaces the normal riser card into which the floppies & ESDI drive
>plug in a Model 70, providing an IDE interface in lieu of the second
>floppy connector.  Of course, the BIOS in my 8570-E21 doesn't
>recognize it, but the Debian kernel does.
>
>Here's the relevant point: There's virtually nothing on the card.  A
>few 20-pin chips and a couple of electrolytics.

Well ... of course.

You don't need many hardware components to integrate the physical IDE interface
into an existing system - no matter if the bus technology is ISA, EISA, MCA or
PCI.
That was - after all - the main reason for the IDE / ATAPI success: It is
cheap.
You only need a base adress decoder, an IRQ logic and -probably- a DMA channel.
That's all. You could do that with less than 10 TTL chips or two or three PALs.

The rest of the interface resides on the HD itself.

If you design the IDE interface as static logic it will use some pre-defined
I/O adress ranges (1F0h - 1F7h and 3F6h - 3F7h) and IRQ 14 (first IDE channel).
No need to use the MCA-specific methods with card-ID, POS, bus-arbitration and
suchlike. It is handled just like a COM- or LPT-port: it is present at a
particular adress and reacts on a particular IRQ handler. Doesn't even use DMA,
since it is simple PIO and not busmastering.

That will however require a small Boot ROM for the additional routines to the
system BIOS. 8K will do. Set it fixed to the adress-range from DE000-DFFFF and
it will - most likely - not collide with anything installed afterwards.
The ROM must be capable to identify the drive, its parameters and translate
them into a LBA scheme (similar to what the enhanced SCSI BIOS does). If it
doesn't translate you are limited to 524MB with the "smallest common
denominator" method and to 2 GB with the PS/2 ABIOS settings using the ESDI
routines. (= 1.024 cylinder, 64 heads, 64 sectors with 512 bytes).

Quite simple, eh ? But the devil sits in the details.



Very friendly greetings from Peter in Germany
http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm
0
peterwendt
10/18/2003 11:19:07 PM
I reverse engineered a ISA-to-IDE controller card (CT1860).  It took five
ttl IC's and a PAL16L8 to implement the circuit.  The card features one IDE
connector, a choice of 4 IRQ settings, a choice of four Address ranges and
no DMA.  The TTL logic is two 8-bit transceivers, one 8-bit buffer, one
3-input NOR and one 2-Input NOR.  Resistors, capacitors, Connectors, and
Jumpered headers complete the Bill of Materials.

The MCA bus card could have a decoder for the Bios ROM and a decoder for
Board ID.


"Peterwendt" <peterwendt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031018191907.29660.00001202@mb-m24.aol.com...
> Hi !
>
> >I seem to be doing pretty well with a Sigma Data QED/70 card.  It
> >replaces the normal riser card into which the floppies & ESDI drive
> >plug in a Model 70, providing an IDE interface in lieu of the second
> >floppy connector.  Of course, the BIOS in my 8570-E21 doesn't
> >recognize it, but the Debian kernel does.
> >
> >Here's the relevant point: There's virtually nothing on the card.  A
> >few 20-pin chips and a couple of electrolytics.
>
> Well ... of course.
>
> You don't need many hardware components to integrate the physical IDE
interface
> into an existing system - no matter if the bus technology is ISA, EISA,
MCA or
> PCI.
> That was - after all - the main reason for the IDE / ATAPI success: It is
> cheap.
> You only need a base adress decoder, an IRQ logic and -probably- a DMA
channel.
> That's all. You could do that with less than 10 TTL chips or two or three
PALs.
>
> The rest of the interface resides on the HD itself.
>
> If you design the IDE interface as static logic it will use some
pre-defined
> I/O adress ranges (1F0h - 1F7h and 3F6h - 3F7h) and IRQ 14 (first IDE
channel).
> No need to use the MCA-specific methods with card-ID, POS, bus-arbitration
and
> suchlike. It is handled just like a COM- or LPT-port: it is present at a
> particular adress and reacts on a particular IRQ handler. Doesn't even use
DMA,
> since it is simple PIO and not busmastering.
>
> That will however require a small Boot ROM for the additional routines to
the
> system BIOS. 8K will do. Set it fixed to the adress-range from DE000-DFFFF
and
> it will - most likely - not collide with anything installed afterwards.
> The ROM must be capable to identify the drive, its parameters and
translate
> them into a LBA scheme (similar to what the enhanced SCSI BIOS does). If
it
> doesn't translate you are limited to 524MB with the "smallest common
> denominator" method and to 2 GB with the PS/2 ABIOS settings using the
ESDI
> routines. (= 1.024 cylinder, 64 heads, 64 sectors with 512 bytes).
>
> Quite simple, eh ? But the devil sits in the details.
>
>
>
> Very friendly greetings from Peter in Germany
> http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm


0
Steve
10/19/2003 6:13:14 AM
Hi !

I'd just looked at the CMS / ARCO MCA-IDE controller (ID 6263), AC-1075/70 Rev.
C - ROM version 3.03.

That version uses 4 PALs (2 x GAL16V8A, 1 x GAL20V8A, 1 x TIBPAL 20L8), 4 x
74LS245, 1 x 74LS374, 3 x 74LS373 and 1 x 74F04 + 1 x 27C64-150 Eprom (8K x 8)
.... plus some "minor crap" like buffering caps (100nF) and four resistors.

The main disadvantage on that controller is the off-standard I/O adress. It
will not be detected properly as IDE controller under e.g. Windows or with any
OEM IDE driver under DOS. As far as I can tell from tracking the connections
two of the PALs are used to set the card-ID / POS and the other two are adress
decoders for the I/O range and the other decodes the ROM adress.

Card-ID detection could be easily done with 2 x 8-bit logic comparators ... but
you really don't need to do that if you'd opt for a "passive" card that just
occupies a fixed I/O range and directly hooks to IRQ 14h. That card would be
treated as a system board extension - just like a COM- or LPT-port.
The only thing you need is a boot ROM that hooks into the PS/2 ABIOS routine
and settles the first of the IDE HDs as "Hex 80" device - just like as if it
were attached to an ESDI controller for instance.

It couldn't be that complicated. The most of the routines are already included
within the IBM ABIOS. The complete handbook scans of the PS/2 BIOS are in the
PDF download section on my pages.

Guess I need to copy the ROM content from the CMS / ARCO controller into my
Eprommer and dig a bit in it on how they did it. That controller is bootable
and there must be an easy mechanism on how they hook the drive into the
bootable devices list.

Very friendly greetings from Peter in Germany
http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm
0
peterwendt
10/19/2003 4:48:25 PM
Reply:

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