Hi All,

Yesterday I was given an T22 by a neighbours son. They had 2 off and
been used by his two girls till they were replaced by smartphones or
somesuch.

This one had been dropped on it's front left corner and apparently
would run but only a random and often fairly high number of power
cycles.

After half stripping it down and playing with it (I couldn't get the
DVD drive out as it had been inadvertantly glued in place when someone
glued the keyboard down) I seem to have a working machine (XP and
Linux Mint is also going on as I type) but still temperamental around
boot.

ie. After having it on most of last evening (many warm / cold boots) I
turned it on this morning and it just goes to the IBM / Thinkpad logo
and the F1/F12 choice. If you press either it responds telling you
it's doing so but rarely seems to go past that point (even when left
some time).

Several power cycles took it no further, nor did ejecting the DVD
drive or exchanging the HDD.

I then removed the power and battery, pressed the power button, put
the power back in and it started ok?

I'll do this a few more times (from cold) to confirm it's a pattern
(to see if it's just the movement that's affecting it) but I wondered
if anyone recognised this as a typical failure mode for a T22?

Cheers, T i m

On Jan 15, 4:15=A0am, T i m <n...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Yesterday I was given an T22 by a neighbours son. They had 2 off and
> been used by his two girls till they were replaced by smartphones or
> somesuch.
>
> This one had been dropped on it's front left corner and apparently
> would run but only a random and often fairly high number of power
> cycles.
>
> After half stripping it down and playing with it (I couldn't get the
> DVD drive out as it had been inadvertantly glued in place when someone
> glued the keyboard down) I seem to have a working machine (XP and
> Linux Mint is also going on as I type) but still temperamental around
> boot.
>
> ie. After having it on most of last evening (many warm / cold boots) I
> turned it on this morning and it just goes to the IBM / Thinkpad logo
> and the F1/F12 choice. If you press either it responds telling you
> it's doing so but rarely seems to go past that point (even when left
> some time).
>
> Several power cycles took it no further, nor did ejecting the DVD
> drive or exchanging the HDD.
>
> I then removed the power and battery, pressed the power button, put
> the power back in and it started ok?
>
> I'll do this a few more times (from cold) to confirm it's a pattern
> (to see if it's just the movement that's affecting it) but I wondered
> if anyone recognised this as a typical failure mode for a T22?
>
> Cheers, T i m

When I had this condition...it was new ram that went bad. Try re-
seating 1st if not help...then try to boot with one stick at a time.

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:22:40 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
<pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote:


>>
>> I'll do this a few more times (from cold) to confirm it's a pattern
>> (to see if it's just the movement that's affecting it) but I wondered
>> if anyone recognised this as a typical failure mode for a T22?
>>
>When I had this condition...it was new ram that went bad.


Thanks for the reply.

Out of interest, did it also run ok /once/ it started?

This carried on fine, installing and updating Linux Mint. It was also
ok again this morning (/once/ it had started).

> Try re-
>seating 1st if not help...then try to boot with one stick at a time.

I did notice XP was running particularly slowly one point last night
and a quick check showed only 256M of the 512M of RAM installed being
'seen'. I swapped them round and it both carried on working and saw
all 512M. 

Without touching it between last night and this morning it was back to
not starting (thermal issue?) and now after a few reboots and pulling
/ re-fitting the hard drive it's just booted ok and and I'm running
Memtest86 (35% compete so far with no issues and all 512M seen).

As I believe you 'know yer thinkpads' Bob, can you remember if this
range (T20-23) were particularly unreliable (or didn't age well) and
if so, is there a particular model of Thinkpad that stood out as
immortal would you say please (I've always wanted one for some reason
and currently nearly have two)? ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Jan 15, 10:28=A0am, T i m <n...@spaced.me.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:22:40 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
>
> <pheeh.z...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I'll do this a few more times (from cold) to confirm it's a pattern
> >> (to see if it's just the movement that's affecting it) but I wondered
> >> if anyone recognised this as a typical failure mode for a T22?
>
> >When I had this condition...it was new ram that went bad.
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Out of interest, did it also run ok /once/ it started?
>
> This carried on fine, installing and updating Linux Mint. It was also
> ok again this morning (/once/ it had started).
>
> > Try re-
> >seating 1st if not help...then try to boot with one stick at a time.
>
> I did notice XP was running particularly slowly one point last night
> and a quick check showed only 256M of the 512M of RAM installed being
> 'seen'. I swapped them round and it both carried on working and saw
> all 512M.
>
> Without touching it between last night and this morning it was back to
> not starting (thermal issue?) and now after a few reboots and pulling
> / re-fitting the hard drive it's just booted ok and and I'm running
> Memtest86 (35% compete so far with no issues and all 512M seen).
>
> As I believe you 'know yer thinkpads' Bob, can you remember if this
> range (T20-23) were particularly unreliable (or didn't age well) and
> if so, is there a particular model of Thinkpad that stood out as
> immortal would you say please (I've always wanted one for some reason
> and currently nearly have two)? ;-(
>
> Cheers, T i m

Yes Tim, once it did start (and if I would put it in standby) it would
run ok. I was given the one I have so I'm not a TP expert, but I
haven't heard of any lemons in a particular model.

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:22:52 -0800, Bob Villa wrote:


>> As I believe you 'know yer thinkpads' Bob, can you remember if this
>> range (T20-23) were particularly unreliable (or didn't age well) and if
>> so, is there a particular model of Thinkpad that stood out as immortal
>> would you say please (I've always wanted one for some reason and
>> currently nearly have two)? ;-(
>>

> 
> Yes Tim, once it did start (and if I would put it in standby) it would
> run ok.

Ok.

> I was given the one I have so I'm not a TP expert, but I haven't
> heard of any lemons in a particular model.

Ok thanks.

I'm still experimenting with it (on it now) and I'm now on another HDD in 
case it's that. However, I'm not sure there is a pattern, or not one that 
I've been able to pin down? ;-(

I have tried different combinations of memory but it seems to work best 
with the 2 x 256 it came with. Anything else and you either get beeps 
(with no RAM in) to no 'IBM Thinkpad' logo.

<Fingers crossed> Once started (XP or Mint) it seems to behave ok ...?

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:22:52 -0800, Bob Villa wrote:


>> As I believe you 'know yer thinkpads' Bob, can you remember if this
>> range (T20-23) were particularly unreliable (or didn't age well) and if
>> so, is there a particular model of Thinkpad that stood out as immortal
>> would you say please (I've always wanted one for some reason and
>> currently nearly have two)? ;-(
>>

> 
> Yes Tim, once it did start (and if I would put it in standby) it would
> run ok.

Ok.

> I was given the one I have so I'm not a TP expert, but I haven't
> heard of any lemons in a particular model.

Ok thanks.

I'm still experimenting with it (on it now) and I'm now on another HDD in 
case it's that. However, I'm not sure there is a pattern, or not one that 
I've been able to pin down? ;-(

I have tried different combinations of memory but it seems to work best 
with the 2 x 256 it came with. Anything else and you either get beeps 
(with no RAM in) to no 'IBM Thinkpad' logo.

<Fingers crossed> Once started (XP or Mint) it seems to behave ok ...?

Cheers, T i m

Somewhere on teh intarwebs T i m wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 04:22:40 -0800 (PST), Bob Villa
> <pheeh.zero@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> I'll do this a few more times (from cold) to confirm it's a pattern
>>> (to see if it's just the movement that's affecting it) but I
>>> wondered if anyone recognised this as a typical failure mode for a
>>> T22?
>>>
>> When I had this condition...it was new ram that went bad.
>
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> Out of interest, did it also run ok /once/ it started?
>
> This carried on fine, installing and updating Linux Mint. It was also
> ok again this morning (/once/ it had started).
>
>> Try re-
>> seating 1st if not help...then try to boot with one stick at a time.
>
> I did notice XP was running particularly slowly one point last night
> and a quick check showed only 256M of the 512M of RAM installed being
> 'seen'. I swapped them round and it both carried on working and saw
> all 512M.
>
> Without touching it between last night and this morning it was back to
> not starting (thermal issue?) and now after a few reboots and pulling
> / re-fitting the hard drive it's just booted ok and and I'm running
> Memtest86 (35% compete so far with no issues and all 512M seen).

Hmmm. I see that in your first post you say that you "half stripped it 
down". If I were you I'd consider fully stripping it down. Intermittent 
problems like this one are the worst to fix and you can only 'fine tune' 
your trouble-shooting once you've eliminated all connections (remove and 
re-seat) and thouroughly eyeballed the whole kit and kaboodle.

That said this could be a poor (non-user-fixable) contact or cracked trace 
on the PCB. I have a 14" T43 that I ended up giving up on and 'parting out'. 
There's a slim chance that it *was* fixable but life's too short and it was 
a mere Intel graphics model... (LOL, some people prefer them as they don't 
have the potential 'loose GPU BGA' weak-point. I personally like a discrete 
GPU. <shrug>)

> As I believe you 'know yer thinkpads' Bob, can you remember if this
> range (T20-23) were particularly unreliable (or didn't age well) and
> if so, is there a particular model of Thinkpad that stood out as
> immortal would you say please (I've always wanted one for some reason
> and currently nearly have two)? ;-(

If I may be as bold?

I have no experience of the T2x range, sorry. Also, I'm not sure about 
"immortal" as some would say that designation should go to older, 
ground-breaking ThinkPads. However, as for usuable classics I'm really 
pleased to have my T43 (2668-84M, upgraded to 2GB RAM and 320GB HDD) and my 
X31 (2672-C2M, upgraded to 2GB RAM and 320GB HDD).

(The 'type' munber can be inserted into this page: 
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/homeLenovo.do in the "Quick Path" 
field and the specs of that ThinkPad as it left the factory will be given.)

Both of those laptops are IMO classics, they were both what I consider to be 
IBM ThinkPads (as opposed to the largely Lenovo T60 [2007-7KU] that I'm 
using to write this).

The X31 is.... Well, where do I start? Heh! Google for a review or two. It's 
an ultraportable with more power than an Atom-based 'netbook', a keyboard 
that's a dream to use and has oodles of class. <g> It's still very, very 
usable, not bad for a machine that was made in 2003. They can be had quite 
cheaply too if you're lucky. Quite a few folks who bought later ThinkPad 
X-series machines 'downgraded' to the X31 later.

The 15" T43 (at least a FlexView-equiped version) is everything that the X31 
is only bigger and more powerful. It too is very usable, still fine as a 
main machine today  for a 'normal user' and for the foreseeable future. If 
you haven't seen a FlexView display then you really should, they are 
outstanding. The older ones are better than the one in this T60 though. 
Every time I fire up the T43, then go back to the T60 it's noticable. That 
said, this T60 display is exceptional!

The only reason that I use the T60 over the T43 for day-to-day use is I'm a 
'power-user' and find that I benefit from the T7400 C2D CPU in the T60. For 
ergonomics, looks and feel I'd pick the T43 every day of the week. Both the 
X31 and the T43 can be had for reasonable money these days and, if looked 
after, should last a good long while. (It's not hard to look after a 
ThinkPad as I'm sure you know. The downloadable Hardware Maintenance Manuals 
are brilliant, making regular heatsink-cleans and the like child's play.)

So those would be my two picks for classics, X31 and (15" SXGA+ Flexview) 
T43. One for carrying and one for the desk.

I currently have:
2 x 15" T60 (FlexView)
14" T60
15" T43 (FlexView)
2 x 14" T42
15" R51 (FlexView)
14" R40
12" X31 all with ATI graphics and all working perfectly....

..... as well as a few ThinkPads that I've bought in 'not running' condition 
as parts or restoration projects.

Cheers,
-- 
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche 

On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 13:46:19 +1300, "~misfit~"
<sore_n_happy@nospamyahoo.com.au> wrote:


>> Without touching it between last night and this morning it was back to
>> not starting (thermal issue?) and now after a few reboots and pulling
>> / re-fitting the hard drive it's just booted ok and and I'm running
>> Memtest86 (35% compete so far with no issues and all 512M seen).
>
>Hmmm. I see that in your first post you say that you "half stripped it 
>down".

Yup, partly to get the DVD module out of the bay and to be able to
unseat / re seat anything I can see. Also to check for signs of damage
from the dropping incident.

>If I were you I'd consider fully stripping it down. Intermittent 
>problems like this one are the worst to fix and you can only 'fine tune' 
>your trouble-shooting once you've eliminated all connections (remove and 
>re-seat) and thouroughly eyeballed the whole kit and kaboodle.

Understood.

My fear is it's a timing / current limit thing at boot time. I say
that because it can be rebooted (warm or cold) and not boot without
being even moved. Also when running it (I'm pretty sure) hasn't failed
/ locked up (often the signs of some intermittent connector
somewhere).
>
>That said this could be a poor (non-user-fixable) contact or cracked trace 
>on the PCB.

Indeed. ;-(

>I have a 14" T43 that I ended up giving up on and 'parting out'. 
>There's a slim chance that it *was* fixable but life's too short and it was 
>a mere Intel graphics model... (LOL, some people prefer them as they don't 
>have the potential 'loose GPU BGA' weak-point.

Ok.

> I personally like a discrete 
>GPU. <shrug>)

I have been building and maintaining PCs for over 20 years and for
quite a while I advised people against buying laptops 'because they
are difficult to repair compared with a laptop'. By difficult I mean
complicated / often expensive / difficult to obtain parts / difficult
to apply substitution for faultfinding (unless you happen to have a
compatible model you don't mind pillaging for spares).

Currently I have probably about 20 laptops and 10 desktops. Most of
the laptops are in some way broken [1] and nearly all the desktops are
fully working.

I had a dream along the lines of ISE and domestic appliances.

http://www.iseappliances.co.uk/ise/index.php/support/spareparts

However ...  
>
>If I may be as bold?

Hey, all input welcomed!
>
>I have no experience of the T2x range, sorry.

Ok.

> Also, I'm not sure about 
>"immortal" as some would say that designation should go to older, 
>ground-breaking ThinkPads.

Ok.

> However, as for usuable classics I'm really 
>pleased to have my T43 (2668-84M, upgraded to 2GB RAM and 320GB HDD) and my 
>X31 (2672-C2M, upgraded to 2GB RAM and 320GB HDD).

Ok.

FWIW, after this T22 stuff I dug out 'Cyborg', (my other Thinkpad with
a unlit display where I removed the complete display with the
intention of using it as a NAS or similar) and found it was a R31. I
have since found a complete screen / plastics / inverter / cables on
eBay and fingers crossed, it could be back as one fairly soon (giving
me the chance to faultfind the faulty display (inverter or backlight).
>
>(The 'type' munber can be inserted into this page: 
>http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/homeLenovo.do in the "Quick Path" 
>field and the specs of that ThinkPad as it left the factory will be given.)

Handy, thanks.
>
>Both of those laptops are IMO classics, they were both what I consider to be 
>IBM ThinkPads (as opposed to the largely Lenovo T60 [2007-7KU] that I'm 
>using to write this).

I understand the distinction.
>
>The X31 is.... Well, where do I start? Heh! Google for a review or two.

<Quick Google>, yeah, nice.

> It's 
>an ultraportable with more power than an Atom-based 'netbook',

(I have an Asus eeePC 701 so know what you mean).

> a keyboard 
>that's a dream to use

I'm a hunt-n-peck one finger typist but the daughter can rate a laptop
keyboard in seconds.

> and has oodles of class. <g>

I'm not sure that's a motivator for me but I get yer point. ;-)

>It's still very, very 
>usable, not bad for a machine that was made in 2003.

And that's the point isn't it, usability.

My 'main' / play laptop (currently sporting 8 OS's <g>) was given to
me by a wealthy friend and happens to be a Toshiba Satellite A300.
Before that it was an Advent with a screen / ribbon cable issue (works
if you get it in the right place) and before that an old Inspiron PIII
with a dead backlight (I got a new CCFL from the States and fixed it).
The eeePC is about the only thing I've bought new since a Compaq
Contura 486! I can remember it cost about �1000 then and that I used
it about 10 times. ;-(

>cheaply too if you're lucky.

Always a result! ;-)

> Quite a few folks who bought later ThinkPad 
>X-series machines 'downgraded' to the X31 later.

Ooooh.
>
>The 15" T43 (at least a FlexView-equiped version) is everything that the X31 
>is only bigger and more powerful.

My ears pricked up on the X31 as our daughter is currently running an
old Dell Latitude D520 that /now/ seems to have a charging / battery
fault (I picked it up cheap for her after it had been 'repaired' but
still with a BIOS password (which I removed)). For serious stuff she
has the desktop she built herself and she tends to use her 'laptop' on
her lap, mainly on Hotmail / MSN / Facebook etc. In fact I'm surprised
the Dell has survived as long as it has because whilst she is pretty
good for looking after her stuff this is definitely seen more as an
appliance than some sophisticated and potentially delicate electronic
equipment.

>It too is very usable, still fine as a 
>main machine today  for a 'normal user' and for the foreseeable future.

Ok.
 
>you haven't seen a FlexView display then you really should, they are 
>outstanding. 

I'm not sure how I could though?

>The older ones are better than the one in this T60 though. 
>Every time I fire up the T43, then go back to the T60 it's noticable. That 
>said, this T60 display is exceptional!

Ah.
>
>The only reason that I use the T60 over the T43 for day-to-day use is I'm a 
>'power-user' and find that I benefit from the T7400 C2D CPU in the T60. For 
>ergonomics, looks and feel I'd pick the T43 every day of the week.

Ok.

> Both the 
>X31 and the T43 can be had for reasonable money these days and, if looked 
>after, should last a good long while.

But if buying second hand (I assume that's what you were saying) I'm
not sure how you could tell, especially if buying remotely (eBay etc).

I have been given machines that I know have never been opened and are
immaculate on the outside but are either dead or unreliable and I've
had 'worn out' machines that are either the same or fine.

> (It's not hard to look after a 
>ThinkPad as I'm sure you know.

Only by reputation and from my exposure to my T22 and R31. In
comparison to many of the machines I've stripped so far they do seem
to be 'engineered' to be worked on (a concept I like because
'hardware' is up there on my interest list (ex support Tech for 30
years)).

>The downloadable Hardware Maintenance Manuals 
>are brilliant, making regular heatsink-cleans and the like child's play.)

All part of my 'enjoyment' of a machine.
>
>So those would be my two picks for classics, X31 and (15" SXGA+ Flexview) 
>T43. One for carrying and one for the desk.

Brilliant, thanks very much for taking the time here.
>
>I currently have:
>2 x 15" T60 (FlexView)
>14" T60
>15" T43 (FlexView)
>2 x 14" T42
>15" R51 (FlexView)
>14" R40
>12" X31 all with ATI graphics and all working perfectly....

I have everything from the Tosh A300 downwards (inc a PowerBook 170
and a SparcBook), including the Compaq Contura! ;-)
>
>.... as well as a few ThinkPads that I've bought in 'not running' condition 
>as parts or restoration projects.

When looking inside many laptops the bit that often 'kills' one is a
dead system board. On the T22 that seems to be a relatively small
thread of PCB that runs down the middle and I would /love/ to know
there was a stack on new / good / refurbished ones somewhere for �25
each. Outside of DC sockets, the battery or the odd fan the rest is
pretty generic (I note the DVD / FDD / CD I have fit both the T22 and
R31).

All the best and thanks again,

T i m


[1] How I came by them.

Somewhere on teh intarwebs T i m wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Jan 2011 13:46:19 +1300, "~misfit~"
> <sore_n_happy@nospamyahoo.com.au> wrote:
[major snip]
>> It's still very, very
>> usable, not bad for a machine that was made in 2003.
>
> And that's the point isn't it, usability.

Yes, I think so, unless you're a collector (for collecting's sake). That's 
why my list of my own ThinkPads below all sport 'Pentium M' CPUs or later. 
IMO if it can't run an 'XP class' OS easilly it's not a working machine, 
rather a curiousity. I have a few machines that are older than those listed 
but I don't really rate them as I don't use them. They're not old or rare 
enough to be really collectable and not modern or common enough to be used 
regularly and source parts for.

[more snips, just a quick peek today, been busy]

>> Quite a few folks who bought later ThinkPad
>> X-series machines 'downgraded' to the X31 later.
>
> Ooooh.


One of the big reasons people don't like the X40 and later ThinkPad 
ultraportables is because they take 1.8" HDDs that only come in 4.2Krpm. The 
X31 has power and a 2.5" HDD that can be upgraded to a 7.2K if desired which 
makes a *huge* difference compared to a 1.8". Of course there are SSDs now 
but they're worth more than a reasonable X31 would cost you. Also pre-SATA 
SSDs aren't all that great apparently and hardly likely to get better as the 
interface ages even more.

>> you haven't seen a FlexView display then you really should, they are
>> outstanding.
>
> I'm not sure how I could though?

Aye, there's the rub. Unless you know someone who owns one it's not easy. 
The first one I saw was in the R51 that I own. I didn't even know it was a 
Flexview until I got it (I just knew it was a hi-res model). I was like 
'ZOMG!!!! Why did I put up with TN displays for all that time?" Since then 
I've sourced two second-hand Dell 20" 3:4 ratio 1600 x 1200 IPS monitors for 
my desktops. They're lightly used and cost me 1/10th of what they sold for 
here new. Bloody brilliant displays mate, much like the FlexViews. I really 
don't like TN anymore.

>> Both the
>> X31 and the T43 can be had for reasonable money these days and, if
>> looked after, should last a good long while.
>
> But if buying second hand (I assume that's what you were saying) I'm
> not sure how you could tell, especially if buying remotely (eBay etc).

Usually by a sellers rep and it pays to have some knowledge of the machine 
model and it's weak-points so you know what questions to ask.... I learnt a 
lot about various ThinkPads from http://forum.thinkpads.com/ , a great place 
to learn about ThinkPads. Along with ThinkWiki.org.

>> (It's not hard to look after a
>> ThinkPad as I'm sure you know.
>
> Only by reputation and from my exposure to my T22 and R31. In
> comparison to many of the machines I've stripped so far they do seem
> to be 'engineered' to be worked on (a concept I like because
> 'hardware' is up there on my interest list (ex support Tech for 30
> years)).
>
>> The downloadable Hardware Maintenance Manuals
>> are brilliant, making regular heatsink-cleans and the like child's
>> play.)
>
> All part of my 'enjoyment' of a machine.


Yeah, mine too. While I can't lay claim to your experience with hardware I 
first 'got my hands dusty' upgrading my own 486 after reading PC magazines 
for a couple years and went from there to the C2Q era building my own 
machines and also gaming machines for friends.

I think that the last desktop that I built (a C2Q QX9650) will likely be the 
last desktop I build. I'm an invalid with little prosepect of earning decent 
money again. Also I built that with the future in mind, over a period of two 
years and three CPUs <g> using only the best quality parts that I could 
afford. (I always ahd a 45nm quad in mind for it but had to wait until they 
were obsolete before I could afford one).

>> So those would be my two picks for classics, X31 and (15" SXGA+
>> Flexview) T43. One for carrying and one for the desk.
>
> Brilliant, thanks very much for taking the time here.


You're welcome, it's a subject I'm passionate about. :-)

>> .... as well as a few ThinkPads that I've bought in 'not running'
>> condition as parts or restoration projects.
>
> When looking inside many laptops the bit that often 'kills' one is a
> dead system board. On the T22 that seems to be a relatively small
> thread of PCB that runs down the middle and I would /love/ to know
> there was a stack on new / good / refurbished ones somewhere for �25
> each.

ThinkPad parts seem to be faily readilly available and are relatively 
affordable, at least for the models that I run. Also I'm gentle on my 
hardware so I'm unlikely to have mechanical damage <crosses fingers to 
un-jinx>. As long as you run them cool I reckon most of my ThinkPads will 
run for a very long time yet.

> Outside of DC sockets, the battery or the odd fan the rest is
> pretty generic (I note the DVD / FDD / CD I have fit both the T22 and
> R31).

Yup, one of the things that both delights and annoys me is the fact that IBM 
kept parts common for longer than most folks had a right to expect along 
it's model lines. (It annoys me because the T43 chipset is natively SATA but 
IBM put a SATA to IDE bridge-chip on the motherboard as SATA drives were 
still expensive and demand outstripped supply at the time. Also though it 
was done to keep parts interchangability with earlier models.

It's a shame that, despite the fact that it has a SATA controller on-board, 
I can't run a 'cheap' 500GB 7.2K HDD in my T43, or a nice SATA SSD when the 
time comes that I can afford one [or seven]. :-(

> All the best and thanks again,

Best to you and yours too, you're welcome. :-)
-- 
Shaun.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a
monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also
into you." Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche 

On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:06:51 +1300, "~misfit~"
<sore_n_happy@nospamyahoo.com.au> wrote:

>> And that's the point isn't it, usability.
>
>Yes, I think so, unless you're a collector (for collecting's sake).

Indeed. I end up being 'a passive collector' as I get given these
things but rarely have the heart to throw them away. ;-(

> That's 
>why my list of my own ThinkPads below all sport 'Pentium M' CPUs or later. 
>IMO if it can't run an 'XP class' OS easilly it's not a working machine, 
>rather a curiousity.

Yup, good go/nogo test.

> I have a few machines that are older than those listed 
>but I don't really rate them as I don't use them. They're not old or rare 
>enough to be really collectable and not modern or common enough to be used 
>regularly and source parts for.

I know where you are at. ;-)
>
>One of the big reasons people don't like the X40 and later ThinkPad 
>ultraportables is because they take 1.8" HDDs that only come in 4.2Krpm.

Ah (fancy that), I would never have assumed, /especially' in an IBM
for some reason (although I believe IBM did (do?) quite a bit of drive
technology development and may have even introduced the 1.8" format)?

> The 
>X31 has power and a 2.5" HDD that can be upgraded to a 7.2K if desired which 
>makes a *huge* difference compared to a 1.8".

(I'm building a low power / web terminal PC to replace this Mac Mini
and was considering a 7200 (2.5" for the low power)).

>Of course there are SSDs now 
>but they're worth more than a reasonable X31 would cost you.

Indeed. Ming you, smaller ones are nearly getting 'reasonable' and
when you consider my eeePC only has a 4G SSD and will nearly support
XP.

> Also pre-SATA 
>SSDs aren't all that great apparently and hardly likely to get better as the 
>interface ages even more.

Good point (funny how an interface can just slide away into history.
I've got to clear out a load of SCSI stuff ...).
>
>>> you haven't seen a FlexView display then you really should, they are
>>> outstanding.
>>
>> I'm not sure how I could though?
>
>Aye, there's the rub. Unless you know someone who owns one it's not easy. 

Like watching the HD TV demonstrations on yer non HD TV. ;-)

>The first one I saw was in the R51 that I own. I didn't even know it was a 
>Flexview until I got it (I just knew it was a hi-res model). I was like 
>'ZOMG!!!! Why did I put up with TN displays for all that time?"

Whilst I probably (subconsciously even) appreciate a particularly good
display I'm more likely to consciously 'notice' a poor or low res one.
Maybe if I got into stuff like Photoshop etc ..

> Since then 
>I've sourced two second-hand Dell 20" 3:4 ratio 1600 x 1200 IPS monitors for 
>my desktops. They're lightly used and cost me 1/10th of what they sold for 
>here new. Bloody brilliant displays mate, much like the FlexViews. I really 
>don't like TN anymore.

I'm using a 3x4 17" iiyama flat screen here (second hand) but as I can
only cope with 1024 x 768 with my eyes I'm probably not getting the
best out of it.
>
>> But if buying second hand (I assume that's what you were saying) I'm
>> not sure how you could tell, especially if buying remotely (eBay etc).
>
>Usually by a sellers rep and it pays to have some knowledge of the machine 
>model and it's weak-points so you know what questions to ask.... I learnt a 
>lot about various ThinkPads from http://forum.thinkpads.com/ , a great place 
>to learn about ThinkPads. Along with ThinkWiki.org.

Bookmarked, thanks.
>

>>> The downloadable Hardware Maintenance Manuals
>>> are brilliant, making regular heatsink-cleans and the like child's
>>> play.)
>>
>> All part of my 'enjoyment' of a machine.
>
>
>Yeah, mine too. While I can't lay claim to your experience with hardware I 
>first 'got my hands dusty' upgrading my own 486 after reading PC magazines 
>for a couple years and went from there to the C2Q era building my own 
>machines and also gaming machines for friends.

My 'grounding' was electronics / data comms with BT, then Kodak and
that sorta naturally flowed into computers and other 'electronics'.
Right time right skill set (that came from personal interest) and I
had quite a good career out of it. Then it went all box / board swap
and I lost interest ...
>
>I think that the last desktop that I built (a C2Q QX9650) will likely be the 
>last desktop I build. 

Hopefully there will still be plenty of stuff to play with though. ;-)

>I'm an invalid with little prosepect of earning decent 
>money again.

Sorry to hear that mate.

> Also I built that with the future in mind, over a period of two 
>years and three CPUs <g> using only the best quality parts that I could 
>afford. (I always ahd a 45nm quad in mind for it but had to wait until they 
>were obsolete before I could afford one).

I've always been 'best bang for buck' type guy, that way I can have
more / different things to satisfy my fickle interest nature.
>
>>> So those would be my two picks for classics, X31 and (15" SXGA+
>>> Flexview) T43. One for carrying and one for the desk.
>>
>> Brilliant, thanks very much for taking the time here.
>
>
>You're welcome, it's a subject I'm passionate about. :-)

So I noticed. However, that passion also seems to be moderated with
some realism. ;-)
>

>ThinkPad parts seem to be faily readilly available and are relatively 
>affordable, at least for the models that I run. Also I'm gentle on my 
>hardware so I'm unlikely to have mechanical damage <crosses fingers to 
>un-jinx>. As long as you run them cool I reckon most of my ThinkPads will 
>run for a very long time yet.

Similar to me and with most things (as I'm the one who has to repair
said things when they go wrong .. from cars to houses to domestic
appliances to computers (apparently)).
>
>> Outside of DC sockets, the battery or the odd fan the rest is
>> pretty generic (I note the DVD / FDD / CD I have fit both the T22 and
>> R31).
>
>Yup, one of the things that both delights and annoys me is the fact that IBM 
>kept parts common for longer than most folks had a right to expect along 
>it's model lines. (It annoys me because the T43 chipset is natively SATA but 
>IBM put a SATA to IDE bridge-chip on the motherboard as SATA drives were 
>still expensive and demand outstripped supply at the time.

Interesting / understood. Another catch22.

> Also though it 
>was done to keep parts interchangability with earlier models.

I like that. I like 'flexibility'. I like the fact that I'm looking to
boot a DVD, I only have a CD drive in there atm but can 'upgrade' to a
DVD in seconds. Of course if it had a DVD in there in the first place
.....  ;-)
>
>It's a shame that, despite the fact that it has a SATA controller on-board, 
>I can't run a 'cheap' 500GB 7.2K HDD in my T43, or a nice SATA SSD when the 
>time comes that I can afford one [or seven]. :-(

Oh well

Cheers and thanks again,

T i m