I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished, but
it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
in the next few.

Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s pretty
stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters for
in other newsreaders.

Thanks for having a look.

  http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>, Allen
Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters
> for
> in other newsreaders.

I filter on subject, author, and number of cross-posts primarily.

djb

-- 
September 19 is International Talk Like A Pirate Day.
Just Do It.
Arrrr.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:42:25 -0600, Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:
> In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>, Allen
> Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:
>
>> In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters
>> for
>> in other newsreaders.
>
> I filter on subject, author, and number of cross-posts primarily.

Yes, number of crossposted groups is a very useful, but not widely known
feature.  No message posted to more than, say, 3 groups, is ever going
to stay on topic (if it started there); it's invariably a trolling
situation waiting to happen.  It's very nice to have the ability to say
"if the Newsgroups: line contains a pattern of *,*,* then don't show me
the message".

Scoring of articles is nice, but robust killfiling is nicer.

Dave Hinz

In article <3pbehmF9l1g2U2@individual.net>, Dave Hinz
<DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Yes, number of crossposted groups is a very useful, but not widely known
> feature.  No message posted to more than, say, 3 groups, is ever going
> to stay on topic (if it started there); it's invariably a trolling
> situation waiting to happen.  It's very nice to have the ability to say
> "if the Newsgroups: line contains a pattern of *,*,* then don't show me
> the message".
> 
> Scoring of articles is nice, but robust killfiling is nicer.

I also like to be able mark a thread to be retained even if it meets
the criteria for another kill...

For instance, the "What is it" threads in rec.woodworking exceed my
crosspost limit for that particular group, but I want to see them.

djb

-- 
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

On 2005-09-20 14:59:59 -0600, Allen Brunson 
<brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> said:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished, but
> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.
> 
> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

50 % of my decision on which program I use is based on the interface. I 
don't require many features. I would not use Pineapple simply because 
of the way it looks. Looks like something from the Classic days brought 
over to X. Maybe because of the icons, I don't know. I'm a Unison type 
of guy. It does everything I need, and has all the eye candy. I know it 
lacks a lot of the features most people are looking for.

I'm sure you'll get a loyal following though. Good luck!
-- 
Walt Basil
http://www.basilweb.net
http://blog.basilweb.net

In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>, Allen
Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader. 

Not letting me test-drive the binary decoding is a deal-breaker for me;
I stopped exploring it immediately.

I might also suggest allowing dragging or double-clicking to subscribe
to newsgroups.  Selecting and then pushing "subscribe" is tedious.

Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from finished, but
> it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.

will its saved posts be searchable by Spotlight?

will it be able to import from *and export to* standard unix news
format?

is it capable to handle more than one newsserver at a time?

H.

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct <h.sainct@laposte.net.invalid> wrote:

> is it capable to handle more than one newsserver at a time?

OK for this. I'm trying for the rest

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
 Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished, but
> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.
> 
> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

I filter out bozos.  In some NGs, they use monikers with character 
strings like this:  ¬˙πø˜˜¬˜√ƒ†®   They change one character often 
because they know that people KF them.  I'd like to have a way to deal 
with that.  Junk filtering in MT NW does not work on that kind of thing.  

I'd also like to have a way to filter out responses to people I have KFd.

I'm prolly asking the impossible but you asked.  Good luck with your 
software. :)

Madeleine

Allen Brunson wrote:
> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished, but
> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.
> 
> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

If you REALLY want to see a TRULY SUPERIOR implementation of Rules and 
Filters (including a TRULY Boolean Views Editor), purchase a copy of 
Forte's Agent 3.1 (for the Windows environment) and put in on a Wintel.

See this site:
http://www.forteinc.com


Windows users have had Usenet clients which implement Boolean Views 
editors for YEARS, while Mac users get these little "play toys" which 
they ACTUALLY think are USABLE and CONFIGURABLE.

I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which 
I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of 
a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise, 
since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how 
crappy they ALL are.  They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are 
totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows 
everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with 
the Usenet.

I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call 
the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!

Anyway, I will check out your new client.  Maybe your's will be 
different than all the other Mac clients.

(tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...)

Just checked your site out and downloaded the product..  It TRULY looks 
promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of 
little windows everywhere.  I will install it sometime today on my G5 
and give it a spin.  Do you have a user-forum somewhere?  If so, where.

I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it, 
however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I 
prefer licensed software over "free" software any day, as the majority 
of "free" software products usually don't allow full configuration and 
use.  It's just not possible to TRULY test a product without FULL access 
to its features.  However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of 
Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of 
binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the 
free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might 
allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 does).

A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:

First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of 
Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.

Then, add these:
1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and 
fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR 
bottom.
3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example: 
Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages" 
view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including 
"Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads 
either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n 
ewsgroup pane.
7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup 
pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's 
personal taste).
8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular 
server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along 
with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of 
subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.

Anyway, I am encouraged by your product after seeing the wasteland of 
OSX Usenet "clients" out there.  You have a good start with a 
three-paned view and EASY multiple server configuration (I wasn't even 
able to add my OWN Usenet server in the trial version of Unison, 
supposedly the "BEST" Usenet "Client" for OSX.  Try as I might, it KEPT 
trying to connect to Panic's OWN premium server, and NEVER would save my 
own server configuration.  I guarantee you, it WASN'T because of any 
"inexperience" with Usenet software, since I've been using Usenet 
software on Wintel platform for MANY years.  Server configuration is a 
SIMPLE thing to accomplish, usually.  Or at least, it SHOULD be.)

==
Donald McDaniel
======================================================================

In article <invalid-2F551B.13374421092005@news-50.dca.giganews.com>,
Madwen  <invalid@nospam.com> wrote:
>In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
> Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:
>
>> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished, but
>> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
>> in the next few.
>> 
>> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
>> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s pretty
>> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
>> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
>> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters for
>> in other newsreaders.
>> 
>> Thanks for having a look.
>> 
>>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/
>
>I filter out bozos.  In some NGs, they use monikers with character 
>strings like this:  ¬˙πø˜˜¬˜√ƒ†®   They change one character often 
>because they know that people KF them.  I'd like to have a way to deal 
>with that.  Junk filtering in MT NW does not work on that kind of thing.  
>
>I'd also like to have a way to filter out responses to people I have KFd.
>
>I'm prolly asking the impossible but you asked.  Good luck with your 
>software. :)
>
>Madeleine

Hi

I would add to the suggestions that the filtering mechanism be able
to filter on any or all of the header info. That way it is possible
to KF shapeshifters by filtering on X-Trace or X-injection ip address info
if provided. trn is able to do this, the problem is getting the source
providers to standardize the header info...

Claude

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:12:40 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):

[snip]
 
> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which 
> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of 
> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise, 
> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how 
> crappy they ALL are.

Really?  Given your "requirements" as outlined below, one can only 
wonder how much time you spent with them.  Hogwasher, for example, 
seems to do quite a bit of what you want.

> They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are 
> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows 
> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with 
> the Usenet.

Hogwasher has the option to use "the traditional 3-paned display" you 
mention below... did you notice that?
 
> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call 
> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!

You can click on a url in Hogwasher... did you notice that?

> Anyway, I will check out your new client.  Maybe your's will be 
> different than all the other Mac clients.
> 
> (tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...)
> 
> Just checked your site out and downloaded the product..  It TRULY looks 
> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of 
> little windows everywhere.  I will install it sometime today on my G5 
> and give it a spin.  Do you have a user-forum somewhere?  If so, where.
> 
> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it, 
> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I 
> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day

Hogwasher is licensed and isn't free... did you notice that?

>, as the majority 
> of "free" software products usually don't allow full configuration and 
> use.  It's just not possible to TRULY test a product without FULL access 
> to its features.

Hogwasher allows "FULL access to its features" for a 60 day evaluation 
period... did you notice that?

>  However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of 
> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of 
> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the 
> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might 
> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 does).

Hogwasher allows unlimited servers... did you notice that?

> 
> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
> 
> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of 
> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.

Hogwasher has the Good Net-working Seal of Approval... did you notice 
that?
 
> Then, add these:
> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and 
> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR 
> bottom.

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example: 
> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages" 
> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including 
> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads 
> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n 
> ewsgroup pane.

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup 
> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's 
> personal taste).

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular 
> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along 
> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of 
> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?


> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.

Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

In summary, while Hogwasher doesn't have the exact same interface as 
Agent, it would seem to meet a lot of your requirements... unless, of 
course, the other unspoken requirement is that it _be_ the exact same 
interface as Agent.
> 
> Anyway, I am encouraged by your product after seeing the wasteland of 
> OSX Usenet "clients" out there.  You have a good start with a 
> three-paned view and EASY multiple server configuration (I wasn't even 
> able to add my OWN Usenet server in the trial version of Unison, 
> supposedly the "BEST" Usenet "Client" for OSX.

Really? According to who?  Thoth, MacSoup, Hogwasher, and MT 
Newswatcher all have their very vocal fans.  Unison is fine if all you 
want to do is leech.

>  Try as I might, it KEPT 
> trying to connect to Panic's OWN premium server, and NEVER would save my 
> own server configuration.

Well, I'm no Unison fan, but I didn't have any problem getting it to 
connect to other servers when I tried it.

>  I guarantee you, it WASN'T because of any 
> "inexperience" with Usenet software, since I've been using Usenet 
> software on Wintel platform for MANY years.

So there you have it.

People often become comfortable with a specific interface and assume it 
is the only "right" way to do things.  Any other way just seems 
"wrong".  I suspect you will not be pleased with anything other than 
MacAgent... if even then :-)

-- 
Nelson

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:12:40 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):

> It TRULY looks 
> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of 
> little windows everywhere

3-paned display? Yuk...who wants that, it's so much Windoze-like. I much 
prefer individual (note: not "little") windows for mailboxes, message list 
and message body, a bit like Eudora allows me to do.
Much more user-centric and configurable than a monolithic huge 3-paned 
display that takes up all screen estate.

Paolo

-- 
"vina parant animum veneri, nisi plurima sumas"
   --Ovid

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:12:40 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):

> REALLY
> TRULY SUPERIOR
> TRULY
> YEARS
> ACTUALLY
> USABLE
> CONFIGURABLE.
> THUNDERBIRD
> NEVER
> TRIED
> LAUGH
> KNOW
> ALL
> MAY
> NOT
> ANY
> TRULY
> FULLY-BOOLEAN
> TRULY
> FULL
> FULL
> UNLIMITED
> MUST
> ALL
> ANY
> NEWEST
> OR
> WATCHED
> TRULY
> ANY
> STATUS
> EITHER 
> TOP
> OR
> ALL
> ANY NUMBER
> NEWEST
> ANY
> EASY
> OWN
> BEST
> KEPT
> OWN
> NEVER
> WASN'T
> MANY
> SIMPLE
> SHOULD

Don't you just hate it when people who have been using Usenet software for 
MANY years still haven't got it, after those MANY years, that using all caps 
is bad practice?

Paolo

In article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call 
> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!

Command-Click works in both Newswatcher and MT-Newswatcher to call up 
your default browser for a URL. Of course, you were talking about 
Thunderbird which I have no experience with.

> Then, add these:
> 1) 
<snip>
> 9) 

Pardon my cynicism if you don't deserve it, but I'll bet you just named 
the features that the new newsreader will come out with eventually. You 
were 'very' specific.
By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means. 
Traditional newsclients go back a long way, far earlier than panes. And 
if you're talking about traditional Microsoft clients, who cares?

leo

-- 
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/

"Walt Basil" <(firstname)@(lastname)web.net> wrote in message
news:2005092107015750073%firstname@lastnamewebnet...
> On 2005-09-20 14:59:59 -0600, Allen Brunson
> <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> said:
>
> > I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from
finished, but
> > it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot
better
> > in the next few.
> >
> > Up until now, I've had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a
small
> > group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It's
pretty
> > stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.
I am
> > interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize
the
> > work remaining.  In particular, I'm going to be starting work on
filtering
> > rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use
filters for
> > in other newsreaders.
> >
> > Thanks for having a look.
> >
> >   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/
>
> 50 % of my decision on which program I use is based on the interface. I
> don't require many features.

99 % of my decision on which program I use is based on it's name.  I don't
require many features.  I would not use Pineapple simply because of it's
name.

Greg

Frédérique & Hervé Sainct wrote:
> will its saved posts be searchable by Spotlight?

yes, because they are saved in separate files.  personally i'm still on 10.3,
but while researching a bug, one of my beta testers said he found the message
we were talking about with spotlight.

> will it be able to import from *and export to* standard unix news
> format?

what are you calling "standard unix news format?"  mbox?  if so, then no.
*but*, the program can pull existing messages into its archives, if you can
write a script or something to turn them into a bunch of text files with the
..pmsg extension.  actually, i could add other extensions to the list, if
there's any demand.

but to tell you the truth, i didn't have that kind of thing on the rader even,
because i wasn't aware that people keep archives with usenet clients very
much?  i mean, *i* do, and that's why i wrote the existing import
functionality, that can turn plain-text rfc822 message files into pineapple
messages.  it wouldn't take much to automate import and export, i guess.  but
is such a thing actually used or needed?  what would you do with it?

i'm not being facetious, i'm serious.  i've never heard anybody ask about
import and export before.

> is it capable to handle more than one newsserver at a time?

yes.  up to 20.  and that's just an artificial limit i put in, to have a
highest number i could use as a sanity check.

Walt Basil wrote:
> 50 % of my decision on which program I use is based on the interface.

for me, i'd say it's closer to 85 percent!

> I don't require many features. I would not use Pineapple simply because
> of the way it looks. Looks like something from the Classic days brought
> over to X.

that's pretty amusing, actually!  pineapple news is written from scratch in
cocoa.  i made use of a lot of the ideas from my previous beos newsreader, but
that's about it.

during the nineties, i made several half-hearted attempts to get into macs,
but couldn't stomach the switch, because "classic" macos is, architecturally,
a hack on a bag on a kludge on a patch.  the very *idea* that you have to set
the size of an app's memory partition before it starts running is beyond
absurd.  it wasn't until macosx, with multi-threading and protected memory and
all the other stuff that modern OSes should take for granted, that i could
seriously consider the switch.

> I'm a Unison type of guy. It does everything I need, and has all the
> eye candy.

i'm not against "eye candy," per se.  the panic guys are excellent programmers
and they have an eye for design, obviously.  it doesn't come for free, though.
it's yet another thing to spend time and effort on, and there are only so many
hours in the day.

i know my gui is not the absolute most attractive thing ever, but it's not
hideous, either.  it will do for now.  i may come back to it and work on the
artwork more in the future.  at the moment, there are a lot of higher-priority
things to work on.

Madwen wrote:
> I filter out bozos.  In some NGs, they use monikers with character
> strings like this:  ¬˙πø˜˜¬˜√ƒ†®   They change one character
often
> because they know that people KF them.  I'd like to have a way to deal
> with that.  Junk filtering in MT NW does not work on that kind of thing.

yeah, that does sound difficult.  you'd probably have to filter on some other
criteria.  like maybe they cross-post a lot, or they all come from a certain
isp, and you could check the path string for that.

> I'd also like to have a way to filter out responses to people I have KFd.

i've already designed a rule that would work for that.  it's a generalization
of "show me all replies to my messages," which seems like a popular request.
haven't implemented it yet, though.

In article <leo-5557C7.15590321092005@news.supernews.com>, Leonard
Blaisdell <leo@greatbasin.com> wrote:

> Pardon my cynicism if you don't deserve it, but I'll bet you just named 
> the features that the new newsreader will come out with eventually. You 
> were 'very' specific.

I was wondering if I was the only one who had that thought...

In article <PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
 Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

Good luck.  You've opened yourself up to a very contentious crowd.

Filtering is crucial for me.  I don't use USENET clients w/o very 
comprehensive killfiles, given the way USENET is filled with crap.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call
>> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!
>
> Command-Click works in both Newswatcher and MT-Newswatcher to call up
> your default browser for a URL. Of course, you were talking about
> Thunderbird which I have no experience with.
>
>> Then, add these:
>> 1)
> <snip>
>> 9)
>
> Pardon my cynicism if you don't deserve it, but I'll bet you just named
> the features that the new newsreader will come out with eventually. You
> were 'very' specific.

oh, man.  if i'm reading you correctly, you appear to be accusing Donald
McDaniel of being my sock puppet.

i'm not seeing his articles unfortunately, just other people's replies to
them.  but i'll say unequivocally that i am not him, nor vice versa, nor are
we in collusion, nor in fact have i ever even heard of him before.  if i were
the type for that kind of shameless self-promoting, i think you would have
heard of me before.  the internet detectives in the audience are hereby
encouraged to prove me wrong.

also, i don't approve of *anything* being called "crap."  the lowliest,
buggiest, crashiest, least effective program you ever used probably *still*
took four or five months' worth of somebody's time.

> By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means.

i don't know what he means, but what *i* mean by it is the same organizational
principle that a lot of news and mail readers have used: groups view on the
left, headers view on the top, message view on the bottom.

In article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>, Donald McDaniel
<invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> It TRULY looks 
> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display

"Traditional."  Heh.  Yeah, I remember how nn had three panes... in the
terminal window...

I can't stand to use most Windows Usenet clients because they all
INSIST on the crappy 3-paned display instead of opening various things
in separate windows as Jobs intended.

-- 
Jerry Kindall, Seattle, WA                <http://www.jerrykindall.com/>

        Send only plain text messages under 32K to the Reply-To address.
        This mailbox is filtered aggressively to thwart spam and viruses.

In article <howard-34E645.22183121092005@news.supernews.com>, Howard S
Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> Filtering is crucial for me.  I don't use USENET clients w/o very 
> comprehensive killfiles, given the way USENET is filled with crap.

I'd say threading, whizz-bang filtering, and handling binaries for the
PrOn crowd are the top 3 features to concentrate on.

djb

-- 
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

claudel wrote:
> I would add to the suggestions that the filtering mechanism be able
> to filter on any or all of the header info. That way it is possible
> to KF shapeshifters by filtering on X-Trace or X-injection ip address info
> if provided. trn is able to do this, the problem is getting the source
> providers to standardize the header info...

yeah, it's technically possible.  i'd say the real problem, though, is time.

the most efficient way to do filtering is to make an XOVER request to the news
server, and filter solely based on what you've got in the overview database.
then you know you don't even have to download a great many of the potential
articles.  to filter on X-Trace and stuff that's not in the overview data,
you'd have to do a HEAD on every article and filter on that.  it's about an
order of magnitude slower.

in fact, applying filters in general is a very slow operation.  that's why
most newsreaders don't apply them as soon as you create one, but only during
download.  it takes a lot of time to get each article anyway, so the time
applying the filter gets lost in the larger download time.  but if you had to,
say, apply all filters RIGHT NOW to all messages in the group, that's going to
be prohibitively slow.

so it's a matter of what you're trying to optimize.  least amount of disk
space used?  fewest bytes sucked across the network?  greatest amount of
filtering, and therefore the least amount of garbage in the headers displayed
to the user?  i'm probably going to optimize mostly for that third case.  so
yeah, i'll probably find a way to let you filter on absolutely every header.

i went the opposite direction when i implemented my killfile, though.  (it
already works, and is available for use.)  it requires an exact match on the
From: string, no fuzziness or regexps or anything clever.  the advantage is
that doing a binary search is very fast.  so much so that i can apply my
killfile in realtime.  when you plonk somebody in pnews, i take out all the
offending articles RIGHT NOW, not on the next download cycle.  this is
important for me, because if i can't get rid of trollish stuff RIGHT NOW,
steam is going to come out my ears.  and since trolls tend to morph a lot,
every entry in the killfile will get expired out in six months, by default.

so anyway, thanks for the feedback.  i haven't written any filtering code yet,
but i'm getting it worked out in my head.

Howard S Shubs wrote:
> Good luck.  You've opened yourself up to a very contentious crowd.

good thing i'm so diplomatic, then.  ho ho ho!

> Filtering is crucial for me.  I don't use USENET clients w/o very
> comprehensive killfiles, given the way USENET is filled with crap.

well, the killfile works already.  i don't like trolls.  my killfile works
differently than most, though.  it's not a "fuzzy" match, it requires an exact
match on the From: string.  the downside is that you can't write a fuzzy rule
to get a morphing troll.  the UP side is that it's very fast, and is applied
in realtime.  it requires only two mouse clicks to killfile a troll, and then
his posts are all immediately removed from view.  if he morphs, just plonk him
again, it's quick and easy.  he'll probably morph out of that identity soon,
so the killfile auto-expires entries after awhile, which makes it
"self-cleaning."  so in my mind, what's lost in fuzzy-matchedness is made up
for in speed and ease-of-use.

Donald McDaniel wrote:
> Allen Brunson wrote:
>> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished,
but
>> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot
better
>> in the next few.
>>
>> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a
small
>> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s
pretty
>> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I
am
>> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize
the
>> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters
for
>> in other newsreaders.
>>
>> Thanks for having a look.
>>
>>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/
>
> If you REALLY want to see a TRULY SUPERIOR implementation of Rules and
> Filters (including a TRULY Boolean Views Editor), purchase a copy of
> Forte's Agent 3.1 (for the Windows environment) and put in on a Wintel.
>
> See this site:
> http://www.forteinc.com
>
>
> Windows users have had Usenet clients which implement Boolean Views
> editors for YEARS, while Mac users get these little "play toys" which
> they ACTUALLY think are USABLE and CONFIGURABLE.
>
> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which
> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of
> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise,
> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how
> crappy they ALL are.  They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are
> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows
> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with
> the Usenet.
>
> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call
> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!
>
> Anyway, I will check out your new client.  Maybe your's will be
> different than all the other Mac clients.
>
> (tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...)
>
> Just checked your site out and downloaded the product..  It TRULY looks
> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of
> little windows everywhere.  I will install it sometime today on my G5
> and give it a spin.  Do you have a user-forum somewhere?  If so, where.
>
> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it,
> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I
> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day, as the majority
> of "free" software products usually don't allow full configuration and
> use.  It's just not possible to TRULY test a product without FULL access
> to its features.  However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of
> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of
> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the
> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might
> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 does).
>
> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
>
> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of
> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.
>
> Then, add these:
> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and
> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR
> bottom.
> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example:
> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages"
> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including
> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads
> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n
> ewsgroup pane.
> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup
> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's
> personal taste).
> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular
> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along
> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of
> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
>
> Anyway, I am encouraged by your product after seeing the wasteland of
> OSX Usenet "clients" out there.  You have a good start with a
> three-paned view and EASY multiple server configuration (I wasn't even
> able to add my OWN Usenet server in the trial version of Unison,
> supposedly the "BEST" Usenet "Client" for OSX.  Try as I might, it KEPT
> trying to connect to Panic's OWN premium server, and NEVER would save my
> own server configuration.  I guarantee you, it WASN'T because of any
> "inexperience" with Usenet software, since I've been using Usenet
> software on Wintel platform for MANY years.  Server configuration is a
> SIMPLE thing to accomplish, usually.  Or at least, it SHOULD be.)

I've also noticed that threading apparently isn't according to SUBJECT, since
I am seeing HUGE amounts of articles with the same exact SUBJECT spread all
over the header listings.

A few other niggles:
1) The total inability to set a Watch.  This alone classifys the software as a
"seldom use" app in my thinking.  Although I can excuse the shortcoming for a
few Betas.
2) Message reply copies are currently not being put into "Sent Messages"
folder.  This is almost inexcusable, tho I realize that the product is barely
out of "Alpha".
3) Navigating away from a Composition window for a few minutes kind of HIDES
the window temporarily if the browser window is maximized.  This has been kind
of disconcerting, (but not completely disconcerting, since minimizing the
browser window brings them back into sight).
4) The INABILITY to open an URL from the Newsreader in the BARELY-FINISHED
"post-Alpha" UNLESS it is "registered" (paid for) is TOTALLY out of line.  Who
wants to pay for a "post-Alpha" just to try it out?  Not me.  And I'm sure,
not MANY would do it in the Wintel world.

Donald McDaniel wrote:
> Allen Brunson wrote:
>> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from finished,
but
>> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot
better
>> in the next few.
>>
>> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a
small
>> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It’s
pretty
>> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I
am
>> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize
the
>> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use filters
for
>> in other newsreaders.
>>
>> Thanks for having a look.
>>
>>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/
>
> If you REALLY want to see a TRULY SUPERIOR implementation of Rules and
> Filters (including a TRULY Boolean Views Editor), purchase a copy of
> Forte's Agent 3.1 (for the Windows environment) and put in on a Wintel.
>
> See this site:
> http://www.forteinc.com
>
>
> Windows users have had Usenet clients which implement Boolean Views
> editors for YEARS, while Mac users get these little "play toys" which
> they ACTUALLY think are USABLE and CONFIGURABLE.
>
> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which
> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of
> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise,
> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how
> crappy they ALL are.  They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are
> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows
> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with
> the Usenet.
>
> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call
> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!
>
> Anyway, I will check out your new client.  Maybe your's will be
> different than all the other Mac clients.
>
> (tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...)
>
> Just checked your site out and downloaded the product..  It TRULY looks
> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of
> little windows everywhere.  I will install it sometime today on my G5
> and give it a spin.  Do you have a user-forum somewhere?  If so, where.
>
> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it,
> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I
> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day, as the majority
> of "free" software products usually don't allow full configuration and
> use.  It's just not possible to TRULY test a product without FULL access
> to its features.  However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of
> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of
> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the
> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might
> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 does).
>
> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
>
> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of
> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.
>
> Then, add these:
> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and
> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR
> bottom.
> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example:
> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages"
> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including
> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads
> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n
> ewsgroup pane.
> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup
> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's
> personal taste).
> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular
> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along
> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of
> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
>
> Anyway, I am encouraged by your product after seeing the wasteland of
> OSX Usenet "clients" out there.  You have a good start with a
> three-paned view and EASY multiple server configuration (I wasn't even
> able to add my OWN Usenet server in the trial version of Unison,
> supposedly the "BEST" Usenet "Client" for OSX.  Try as I might, it KEPT
> trying to connect to Panic's OWN premium server, and NEVER would save my
> own server configuration.  I guarantee you, it WASN'T because of any
> "inexperience" with Usenet software, since I've been using Usenet
> software on Wintel platform for MANY years.  Server configuration is a
> SIMPLE thing to accomplish, usually.  Or at least, it SHOULD be.)
>

I just installed Pineapple.  Your'e off to a good start, Allen.
It still needs a LOT of work.  Especially on body download speed.

I usually download the last 2 or three days headers, then when I want to view
the body accompaning the header, I download it on the spot, without marking it
for downloading.  I guess my reading habits are more inline with a "online"
newsreader.

I also don't like the popup everytime I download a body (however, this is
slightly offset by Pineapple's closing the popup automatically when the body
is downloaded.)

In article <PM000401532B866E2B@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
Allen Brunson  <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:
>claudel wrote:
>> I would add to the suggestions that the filtering mechanism be able
>> to filter on any or all of the header info. That way it is possible
>> to KF shapeshifters by filtering on X-Trace or X-injection ip address info
>> if provided. trn is able to do this, the problem is getting the source
>> providers to standardize the header info...
>
>yeah, it's technically possible.  i'd say the real problem, though, is time.
>
>the most efficient way to do filtering is to make an XOVER request to the news
>server, and filter solely based on what you've got in the overview database.
>then you know you don't even have to download a great many of the potential
>articles.  to filter on X-Trace and stuff that's not in the overview data,
>you'd have to do a HEAD on every article and filter on that.  it's about an
>order of magnitude slower.
>
>in fact, applying filters in general is a very slow operation.  that's why
>most newsreaders don't apply them as soon as you create one, but only during
>download.  it takes a lot of time to get each article anyway, so the time
>applying the filter gets lost in the larger download time.  but if you had to,
>say, apply all filters RIGHT NOW to all messages in the group, that's going to
>be prohibitively slow.
>
>so it's a matter of what you're trying to optimize.  least amount of disk
>space used?  fewest bytes sucked across the network?  greatest amount of
>filtering, and therefore the least amount of garbage in the headers displayed
>to the user?  i'm probably going to optimize mostly for that third case.  so
>yeah, i'll probably find a way to let you filter on absolutely every header.
>
>i went the opposite direction when i implemented my killfile, though.  (it
>already works, and is available for use.)  it requires an exact match on the
>From: string, no fuzziness or regexps or anything clever.  the advantage is
>that doing a binary search is very fast.  so much so that i can apply my
>killfile in realtime.  when you plonk somebody in pnews, i take out all the
>offending articles RIGHT NOW, not on the next download cycle.  this is
>important for me, because if i can't get rid of trollish stuff RIGHT NOW,
>steam is going to come out my ears.  and since trolls tend to morph a lot,
>every entry in the killfile will get expired out in six months, by default.
>
>so anyway, thanks for the feedback.  i haven't written any filtering code yet,
>but i'm getting it worked out in my head.

My concern is more for effective filtering than optimized downloading, personally.
If it is possible to pick something harder to spoof than the From: header to filter
on it reduces the need to update the twit filter. Only the most dedicated k00ks
seem to have the savvy or the drive to change IP addresses to avoid being 
bit-bucketed. Plus, they are more likely to get LARTed by their ISP for IP spoofing
than nymshifting. If you don't get something like it into the initial release I
hope you see the value enough to eventually consider it.

Thanks for doing this. I'm still using trn from a shell account because I 
haven't found anything I really like using on my Powerbook. Hopefully
your reader will be it...

Claude

Donald L McDaniel wrote:
> I've also noticed that threading apparently isn't according to SUBJECT,
> since I am seeing HUGE amounts of articles with the same exact SUBJECT
> spread all over the header listings.

it sorts according to whichever column header is clicked in the headers view.

having said that, i probably know what you're talking about.  it's something
that i need to get around to fixing.  say you've got article A, and it's got
two replies, B and C.  if all three articles are available in the view, then
they'll all be grouped together.  but say A is missing, and you've only got B
and C.  you'd probably want to see those grouped together, but currently, they
aren't.  it requires a *whole* lot of logic to determine that B and C should
be grouped together, due to all the combinations.  like maybe they aren't
direct descendents of A, but a grandchild and great-grandchild, for instance.
they still should be grouped together, and now you have to go spelunking
through a lot of references headers to make the connection.

> 2) Message reply copies are currently not being put into "Sent Messages"
> folder.

are you sure about that?  wait, what do you mean by "message reply copies?"
the messages you wrote yourself are what's supposed to go into "Sent
Messages."

i *did* have a bug in an earlier version where messages would sometimes get
stuck in the outbox, and not move to sent messages.  none of my beta testers
have reported it in a long time, so i figured i fixed it.  but if you can come
up with a reproducible test case, i'll definitely fix that one, too.

> 4) The INABILITY to open an URL from the Newsreader in the BARELY-FINISHED
> "post-Alpha" UNLESS it is "registered" (paid for) is TOTALLY out of line.

i can't do the 15-day-free-trial thing, because the app isn't finished yet.  i
also can't give it away, because later on, when it *is* finished, i'd be
competing with earlier, free versions of the app.  i've made it available now,
because i'm hoping i'll get a few people to start using it and report bugs and
user experience and so on.  for the past few months i've had only three
trusted guys from my beos days as testers, and i've already fixed everything
they've reported.

you've already seen what the url-opener feature can do.  it shows you the urls
it finds in distinctive colors.  it's just preventing you from that final
step, launching safari or an ftp-aware app our whatever.  without a few of
those kinds of preventions, nobody would ever register.

if you don't want to register, fine, don't!  there are people who have been
using the beos version of pnews for *years* without registering!  i don't go
around trying to make them feel guilty about it.  maybe they're poor, maybe
they only use it once in awhile.  but i'm also not going to give the program
away.  therefore, a few features are paid-only.

In article <PM00040152ED5B1337@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
 Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> Leonard Blaisdell wrote:

> > Pardon my cynicism if you don't deserve it, but I'll bet you just named
> > the features that the new newsreader will come out with eventually. You
> > were 'very' specific.

> oh, man.  if i'm reading you correctly, you appear to be accusing Donald
> McDaniel of being my sock puppet.

As a cynic, I look for any promotion, however obfuscated and biased 
toward not appearing as a promotion. His appeared to fit. My apologies.

> > By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means.
> 
> i don't know what he means, but what *i* mean by it is the same organizational
> principle that a lot of news and mail readers have used: groups view on the
> left, headers view on the top, message view on the bottom.

Well, he wasn't speaking for you. Good luck with your project.

leo

-- 
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/

Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> In article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call
>> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!
>
> Command-Click works in both Newswatcher and MT-Newswatcher to call up
> your default browser for a URL. Of course, you were talking about
> Thunderbird which I have no experience with.
>
>> Then, add these:
>> 1)
> <snip>
>> 9)
>
> Pardon my cynicism if you don't deserve it, but I'll bet you just named
> the features that the new newsreader will come out with eventually. You
> were 'very' specific.

So, "very specific" means I am somehow in collusion with the author?.

The fact is, I was VERY specific because I am used to having almost ALL
features I stated with MOST Windows newsreaders.  These are ALSO many of the
features of the best newsreader client I have ever used.  Because of these
features, my Usenet experience in Windows was FUN and EASY.

If YOU like little meaningless windows everywhere on YOUR desktop, that is
YOUR business.  If YOU like the disordered view of OSX newsreaders, and total
lack of control over what you are presented with in a newsreader, that is ALSO
your business.

I don't like it.  And I have JUST as much right to give my input as ANYONE,
especially as my platform is now OSX rather than Windows.

I am very sure even YOU have "very specific" likes and dislikes in a Usenet
client.


> By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means.
> Traditional newsclients go back a long way, far earlier than panes. And
> if you're talking about traditional Microsoft clients, who cares?
>
> leo

That just shows how indoctrinated you are by Mr. Jobs and other Apple
developers.

If more and more ex-Windows users move over to OSX and Apples (and I'm sure
they will, unless Vista totally blows OSX away), OSX developers are going to
HAVE to learn to accomodate us, especially if they want our money.

Wake up, leo, its a CHANGED WORLD out there, and you will be left in the dust
like the dinosaurs, if you don't change with it.

Paolo Cordone wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:12:40 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):
>
>> REALLY
>> TRULY SUPERIOR
>> TRULY
>> YEARS
>> ACTUALLY
>> USABLE
>> CONFIGURABLE.
>> THUNDERBIRD
>> NEVER
>> TRIED
>> LAUGH
>> KNOW
>> ALL
>> MAY
>> NOT
>> ANY
>> TRULY
>> FULLY-BOOLEAN
>> TRULY
>> FULL
>> FULL
>> UNLIMITED
>> MUST
>> ALL
>> ANY
>> NEWEST
>> OR
>> WATCHED
>> TRULY
>> ANY
>> STATUS
>> EITHER
>> TOP
>> OR
>> ALL
>> ANY NUMBER
>> NEWEST
>> ANY
>> EASY
>> OWN
>> BEST
>> KEPT
>> OWN
>> NEVER
>> WASN'T
>> MANY
>> SIMPLE
>> SHOULD
>
> Don't you just hate it when people who have been using Usenet software for
> MANY years still haven't got it, after those MANY years, that using all caps
> is bad practice?
>
> Paolo

So I guess even YOU use "bad practices", huh?  Hypocrite!

I don't know if you noticed it, PAOLO, but caps are ALSO used to provide
emphasis, not just to "yell", as you apparently think it ALWAYS means .  Now,
if more modern newsreaders allowed for HTML or Rich Text editing (many Windows
Newsreadsers do), and Unix traditionalists didn't weep like babies and have an
apoplexic fit each time they see a word with helpful formatting, there would
be no need for caps as emphasis on a word, since we would be able to format
the text we want to emphasize as Underlined or Italic.  By the way, that's not
the same as formatting ALL text as Underlined or Italic, as this newsreader
apparently only allows.  It would be great if the formatting was granular down
to the single word level, but it's not.

I need a little granularity in composition of text, since I am pretty
emotional, and desire to get my emotions across.  I really DON'T like using
caps as emphasis, but I have no choice in the matter, since most Usenet
clients don't allow for  anything else.

Paolo Cordone wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:12:40 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):
>
>> It TRULY looks
>> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of
>> little windows everywhere
>
> 3-paned display? Yuk...who wants that, it's so much Windoze-like. I much
> prefer individual (note: not "little") windows for mailboxes, message list
> and message body, a bit like Eudora allows me to do.
> Much more user-centric and configurable than a monolithic huge 3-paned
> display that takes up all screen estate.
>
> Paolo
>

I guess there just is no accounting for taste, is there?  Some people just
LOVE meat and potatoes, while others love being Vegans.

Anyone who wants to make MONEY on a product needs to provide for the greatest
amount of taste decisions they are able to, since almost ANYONE might purchase
their software.

In article 
<PM00040154570A96F0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:

> Leonard Blaisdell wrote:

> The fact is, I was VERY specific because I am used to having almost ALL
> features I stated with MOST Windows newsreaders.  These are ALSO many of the
> features of the best newsreader client I have ever used.  Because of these
> features, my Usenet experience in Windows was FUN and EASY.

Not so now?

> If YOU like little meaningless windows everywhere on YOUR desktop, that is
> YOUR business.  If YOU like the disordered view of OSX newsreaders, and total
> lack of control over what you are presented with in a newsreader, that is ALSO
> your business.

Well, I don't believe I get that with MT-Newswatcher.

> I don't like it.  And I have JUST as much right to give my input as ANYONE,
> especially as my platform is now OSX rather than Windows.

Absolutely!

> I am very sure even YOU have "very specific" likes and dislikes in a Usenet
> client.

I gravitate toward the simple ones.

> That just shows how indoctrinated you are by Mr. Jobs and other Apple
> developers.

I know I have a bias. I'm adept at Mac and PPCLinux. I'm not sure I know 
how to turn a PC on. Then Steve merged my two loves and I'm a happy 
camper. 

> If more and more ex-Windows users move over to OSX and Apples (and I'm sure
> they will, unless Vista totally blows OSX away), OSX developers are going to
> HAVE to learn to accomodate us, especially if they want our money.

I'll have to google Vista.

> Wake up, leo, its a CHANGED WORLD out there, and you will be left in the dust
> like the dinosaurs, if you don't change with it.

My dad was one year old when the Wright brothers flew. Can you imagine 
the changes he adapted to? Two guys bumping off a couple of sand dunes 
at Kittyhawk to the moon is a pretty good stretch of technology in a 
man's life. I'll be sixty next August, and I've seen and become 
functionally literate with a few technological innovations myself. 
Including this stuff. 

leo

-- 
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/

In article 
<PM00040154AEE67F99@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:

> I need a little granularity in composition of text, since I am pretty
> emotional, and desire to get my emotions across.  I really DON'T like using
> caps as emphasis, but I have no choice in the matter, since most Usenet
> clients don't allow for  anything else.

Quote marks do a "fine" job. Emoticons generally work as an indicator of 
your demeanor ;-) See! Don't use emoticons in afu though :-(

leo

-- 
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/

In article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Donald McDaniel

Wow! I can get Pineapple and check out how nicely it kills trolls and 
start with this dickhead.

In article <PM00040152ED5B1337@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
 Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> i'm not seeing his articles unfortunately, just other people's replies to
> them.  but i'll say unequivocally that i am not him, nor vice versa, nor are
> we in collusion, nor in fact have i ever even heard of him before.  if i were
> the type for that kind of shameless self-promoting, i think you would have
> heard of me before.  the internet detectives in the audience are hereby
> encouraged to prove me wrong.

Hmmm...first time we got the pleasure of "Donald" was a week ago. He 
came in here calling all Mac clients crap. And then suddenly your app 
appears and he's just all over the place. Gives one pause...

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:19:43 -0700, Allen Brunson wrote
(in article <PM0004015499F7BD73@remy.nashville.comcast.net>):

> Donald L McDaniel wrote:
>> I've also noticed that threading apparently isn't according to SUBJECT,
>> since I am seeing HUGE amounts of articles with the same exact SUBJECT
>> spread all over the header listings.
> 
> it sorts according to whichever column header is clicked in the headers view.
> 
> having said that, i probably know what you're talking about.  it's something
> that i need to get around to fixing.  say you've got article A, and it's got
> two replies, B and C.  if all three articles are available in the view, then
> they'll all be grouped together.  but say A is missing, and you've only got B
> and C.  you'd probably want to see those grouped together, but currently, 
they
> aren't.  it requires a *whole* lot of logic to determine that B and C should
> be grouped together, due to all the combinations.  like maybe they aren't
> direct descendents of A, but a grandchild and great-grandchild, for instance.
> they still should be grouped together, and now you have to go spelunking
> through a lot of references headers to make the connection.
> 
>> 2) Message reply copies are currently not being put into "Sent Messages"
>> folder.
> 
> are you sure about that?  wait, what do you mean by "message reply copies?"
> the messages you wrote yourself are what's supposed to go into "Sent
> Messages."

I did experience 2 of my posts not being copied to the Sent folder on first 
use.  However, this MIGHT have been because I did not understand at first 
that messages don't appear to post immediately, and I had to use the 
"Transfer All" selection before they would leave the Outbox.

However, after using the product all day, copies of my posts began showing up 
in the Sent folder.  This may be because I started using the "Transfer All" 
option every so often.

> 
> i *did* have a bug in an earlier version where messages would sometimes get
> stuck in the outbox, and not move to sent messages.  none of my beta testers
> have reported it in a long time, so i figured i fixed it.  but if you can 
come
> up with a reproducible test case, i'll definitely fix that one, too.

Whether you will be able to reproduce what I experienced (my posts not 
immediately being posted and remaining in the Outbox until I used the 
"Transfer All" option) I don't know.  But I can reproduce it on my 
installation of Pineapple EVERY time I try to post.
> 
>> 4) The INABILITY to open an URL from the Newsreader in the BARELY-FINISHED
>> "post-Alpha" UNLESS it is "registered" (paid for) is TOTALLY out of line.
> 
> i can't do the 15-day-free-trial thing, because the app isn't finished yet.  
i
> also can't give it away, because later on, when it *is* finished, i'd be
> competing with earlier, free versions of the app.  i've made it available 
now,
> because i'm hoping i'll get a few people to start using it and report bugs 
and
> user experience and so on.  for the past few months i've had only three
> trusted guys from my beos days as testers, and i've already fixed everything
> they've reported.

I'm probably being overly-critical.  Sorry if I am.  I will attempt to be a 
little kinder in my assessments from now on.  


> 
> you've already seen what the url-opener feature can do.  it shows you the 
urls
> it finds in distinctive colors. 

This is normal behavior in almost all Windows newsreaders.  Nothing novel, i 
am afraid.

> it's just preventing you from that final
> step, launching safari or an ftp-aware app our whatever.  without a few of
> those kinds of preventions, nobody would ever register.
> 
> if you don't want to register, fine, don't!  there are people who have been
> using the beos version of pnews for *years* without registering!  i don't go
> around trying to make them feel guilty about it.  maybe they're poor, maybe
> they only use it once in awhile.  but i'm also not going to give the program
> away.  therefore, a few features are paid-only.

I really do understand your position, Allen.  Normally, I purchase a product 
when I want to try it out, but after having been burned so many times with 
"junk" software, I'm more than a little "gun-shy", and am a LOT more careful 
nowadays where my money is concerned.  

PLEASE don't misunderstand me:  I am not calling your product "junk 
software".  I realize it is barely out of Alpha.  I am sure you have many 
useful ideas ahead for your "baby".  I am more than willing to watch it as it 
develops and matures, and if it contains several of my desires in a 
newsreader once it reaches RTM, I will purchase a license.  I try to take the 
LONG view, even tho I am the kind of person who "wants it NOW".  I really 
have to watch myself.  It's just that I'm used to using an outstanding 
newsreader for so long, and getting used to the OSX paradigm is a little 
harder for me as I enter my sunset years.

I realize that developing a software application costs money.  Sometimes 
(probably more often than not), a developer can bleed operating and 
development expenses when developing a new software app.

So I do grok with you (I read "Strange in a Strange Land" long before it was 
a honey of the neo-hippies).

Anyway, I am looking forward to a great newsreader from you. 

== 
Donald L McDaniel
==============================================================

In article <11j3salrusmre31@corp.supernews.com>, G.T.
<getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> 99 % of my decision on which program I use is based on it's name.  I don't
> require many features.  I would not use Pineapple simply because of it's
> name.

it seems there already is a pineapple -

http://www.postal-code.com/pineapple.php

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:06:50 -0700, Leonard Blaisdell wrote
(in article <leo-B67BBD.22065021092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article 
> <PM00040154570A96F0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>,
>  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Leonard Blaisdell wrote:
> 
>> The fact is, I was VERY specific because I am used to having almost ALL
>> features I stated with MOST Windows newsreaders.  These are ALSO many of the
>> features of the best newsreader client I have ever used.  Because of these
>> features, my Usenet experience in Windows was FUN and EASY.
> 
> Not so now?

Up to this minuute, I am afraid my Usenet reading and writing has not been 
pleasurable at all on my new G5.  Since Usenet is a large part of my 
computing experience, this is not good.

> 
>> If YOU like little meaningless windows everywhere on YOUR desktop, that is
>> YOUR business.  If YOU like the disordered view of OSX newsreaders, and 
>> total
>> lack of control over what you are presented with in a newsreader, that is 
>> ALSO
>> your business.
> 
> Well, I don't believe I get that with MT-Newswatcher.
> 
>> I don't like it.  And I have JUST as much right to give my input as ANYONE,
>> especially as my platform is now OSX rather than Windows.
> 
> Absolutely!
> 
>> I am very sure even YOU have "very specific" likes and dislikes in a Usenet
>> client.
> 
> I gravitate toward the simple ones.

And I (and many others) gravitate toward the 
extremely-configurable-to-the-max ones.

> 
>> That just shows how indoctrinated you are by Mr. Jobs and other Apple
>> developers.
> 
> I know I have a bias. I'm adept at Mac and PPCLinux. I'm not sure I know 
> how to turn a PC on. Then Steve merged my two loves and I'm a happy 
> camper. 
> 

Have you ever thought of just pressing the power button?  It will start a PC 
every time, unless something is wrong with the hardware. 

I do admit that my previous statement also shows bias toward Windows apps, 
just as you show bias toward Apple apps.  However, I must learn to appreciate 
the new paradigm.  So we're both biased.  What's new.  I guess I was just 
being a little bitter because I couldn't find a better newsreader for my G5 
and OSX. Please forgive me if I have offended you.

>> If more and more ex-Windows users move over to OSX and Apples (and I'm sure
>> they will, unless Vista totally blows OSX away), OSX developers are going to
>> HAVE to learn to accomodate us, especially if they want our money.
> 
> I'll have to google Vista.

Vista is Microsoft's newly-developed OS, which will replace Windows XP and 
earlier versions of Windows.  It is comparable to Apple supplanting the old 
MacOS with OSX.  Currently, it is in limited beta, and won't be released to 
manufacturing until sometime in 2006 (supposedly).

> 
>> Wake up, leo, its a CHANGED WORLD out there, and you will be left in the 
>> dust
>> like the dinosaurs, if you don't change with it.
> 
> My dad was one year old when the Wright brothers flew. Can you imagine 
> the changes he adapted to? Two guys bumping off a couple of sand dunes 
> at Kittyhawk to the moon is a pretty good stretch of technology in a 
> man's life. I'll be sixty next August, and I've seen and become 
> functionally literate with a few technological innovations myself. 
> Including this stuff. 

> leo

I was much too harsh in my retort.  Please forgive me.

== 
Donald
==========================================================

[news.software.readers added because this is also appropriate there]

Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

[re possible killfile features in new newsreader]
> Yes, number of crossposted groups is a very useful, but not widely known
> feature.  No message posted to more than, say, 3 groups, is ever going
> to stay on topic (if it started there); it's invariably a trolling
> situation waiting to happen.  It's very nice to have the ability to say
> "if the Newsgroups: line contains a pattern of *,*,* then don't show me
> the message".

Yes, but you want to be able to make an exception to show messages
crossposted to news.announce.newgroups or that contain RFD or CFV in the
subject.  

-- 
Kathy - read reviews of other newsgroups in news:news.groups.reviews
help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>

In article <0001HW.BF57AC0C006261D5F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I was much too harsh in my retort.  Please forgive me.

Such is usenet. I have an opinion that is damned near impossible to 
sway. I'll bet you do too.

leo

-- 
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/

On news.software.readers, in
<1h39jm1.1yb7pxg1krznh6N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, "Kathy Morgan"
wrote:

Hi Kathy,

> [news.software.readers added because this is also appropriate
> there]
>
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> [re possible killfile features in new newsreader]
>
>> Yes, number of crossposted groups is a very useful, but not
>> widely known feature.  No message posted to more than, say, 3
>> groups, is ever going to stay on topic (if it started there);
>> it's invariably a trolling situation waiting to happen.  It's
>> very nice to have the ability to say "if the Newsgroups: line
>> contains a pattern of *,*,* then don't show me the message".

Killfiling (leaving entire posts/threads on the server or
deleting them locally) is putting your head in the sand. Threads
and patterns of behavior on the group lose their sense.

Much better to killscore (normally*) which means that you bring
down the headers and leave the bodies on the server.  That way,
not only can you keep track of what's going on, but the headers
are there for reference, if needed.

I realize that the newsreader you are referring to may be
too primitive (eye-candy and "user-friendliness" instead of
functionality) to do killscoring, but any decent newsreader, like
slrn-slrnpull, can.

*On alt.test, I leave every post but those with a particular
string in the headers on the server, because it's not an
interactive or announce group, and I'm only interested in my own
tests. I also killfile all crossposts from advocacy groups. More
than 3 crossposts get killscored until I can see what's going
on. You can always bring down the bodies and remove the killscore
later.


>
> Yes, but you want to be able to make an exception to show
> messages crossposted to news.announce.newgroups or that contain
> RFD or CFV in the subject.

Absolutely,

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5747DD00228A47F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:12:40 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):
> 
> [snip]
>  
>> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which 
>> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of 
>> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise, 
>> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how 
>> crappy they ALL are.
> 
> Really?  Given your "requirements" as outlined below, one can only 
> wonder how much time you spent with them.  Hogwasher, for example, 
> seems to do quite a bit of what you want.
> 
>> They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are 
>> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows 
>> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with 
>> the Usenet.
> 
> Hogwasher has the option to use "the traditional 3-paned display" you 
> mention below... did you notice that?

Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three hours 
of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY way I 
have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, I 
must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting articles.

>  
>> I mean I can't even click on an URL in a post and have Thunderbird call 
>> the default Browser (or ANY browser, for that matter.) What crap!
> 
> You can click on a url in Hogwasher... did you notice that?
> 
>> Anyway, I will check out your new client.  Maybe your's will be 
>> different than all the other Mac clients.
>> 
>> (tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock...)
>> 
>> Just checked your site out and downloaded the product..  It TRULY looks 
>> promising, since it has the traditional 3-paned display, instead of 
>> little windows everywhere.  I will install it sometime today on my G5 
>> and give it a spin.  Do you have a user-forum somewhere?  If so, where.
>> 
>> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it, 
>> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I 
>> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day
> 
> Hogwasher is licensed and isn't free... did you notice that?

Since I'm not interested in free software, this is not a great consideration.

> 
>> , as the majority 
>> of "free" software products usually don't allow full configuration and 
>> use.  It's just not possible to TRULY test a product without FULL access 
>> to its features.
> 
> Hogwasher allows "FULL access to its features" for a 60 day evaluation 
> period... did you notice that?
> 
>> However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of 
>> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of 
>> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the 
>> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might 
>> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 does).
> 
> Hogwasher allows unlimited servers... did you notice that?  

I did.  However, I currently only use one server, so it is not a really 
useful option for me.

> 
>> 
>> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
>> 
>> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of 
>> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.
> 
> Hogwasher has the Good Net-working Seal of Approval... did you notice 
> that?
>  
>> Then, add these:
>> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and 
>> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.

> 
>> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR 
>> bottom.
> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

Well, it does, kind of, in a strange sort of way.  Currently I dont' know how 
to ungroup newsgroups in a subscription.  Grouping subscriptions may be 
useful for some, but definitely not me.  Doing this tends to confuse the 
display of headers, making them almost impossible to follow time-wise.

> 
>> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.

This is one of my MOST important considerations in purchasing a Usenet 
client.  I have YET to see this option in Hogwasher.  If it is truly there, 
please show me.  For that matter, show me how to put a TRUE WATCH on a 
thread.  I have yet to find an option to set a Watch, and I have dutifully 
opened EACH sub-menu and looked CAREFULLY for an option to set a Watch on a 
thread.

>> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example: 
>> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages" 
>> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

If it does, it is a very strange implementation.  But its confusing of 
newsgroups in the header display is very hard to follow.  I want to see ALL 
watched threads in ONE newsgroup at a time, not  a confusing tangled display 
of ALL headers from ALL newsgroups at once.  In addition, Hogwasher has NO 
Views Editor of ANYKIND (perhaps you don't understand what a "view" is.).  
And it certainly has no BOOLEAN filtering (have you EVER seen Boolean 
filtering before?  If you've only used Mac software, I doubt it seriously.  I 
mean, even Outlook Express for Windows has a Boolean views editor, and almost 
EVERYONE is united in  their opinion of its ineptness as a Usenet client.

> 
>> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including 
>> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads 
>> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.

Not found anywhere.  In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT, 
Author, or Date, and that only by clicking on a column header.  And with the 
confusing of newsgroups in a Subscription grouping, this makes it DOUBLY 
useless.  There isn't even a "Watched Thread" setting ANYWHERE.  So NO TRUE 
watches, which are EXTREMELY important to me (and many others).

>> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n 
>> ewsgroup pane.


> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

If it does, I have yet to find it, since I can't even see ALL my subscribed 
newsgroups in the Browser window (only the alias I gave each subscription 
grouping.)  Maybe I don't really understand the Subscription Group concept 
yet.  However, if what I have seen so far is Hogwasher's concept of a 
Subscription Grouping, I certainly don't like it.

In addition (and this is a HUGE deficit for Hogwasher)  I have been TOTALLY 
unable to access any Help file of Hogwasher's.  Therefore, I have been UNABLE 
to obtain any configuration information for the product.  Even entering a 
simple search word in the Help search tool results in an UNENDING display of 
an empty window with a little arrow going round and round, but nothing else.

This is NOTHING like Windows help files (which actually returned useful 
information.)

> 
>> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup 
>> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's 
>> personal taste).

> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

This is just not so.   If true, please show me how.  I have found NO option 
to sort ANY newsgroups ANYWHERE.  Anyway, I have been completely unable to 
even SEE all my subscribed newsgroups in the Browser window, so I couldn't 
sort the Newsgroup list even if I wanted to (and I do).
> 
>> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular 
>> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along 
>> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of 
>> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

I will give Hogwasher that.  However, I have not been able to get my 
newsgroups arranged under a Grouping alias, with the actual newsgroups all 
showing, such as:

"Apple and OSX" (Grouping Alias)
  Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
  Newsgroup 2              "
  Newsgroup 3              "
  :
  :
  Newsgroup N
"Newsreader Support"  (Grouping Alias)
  Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
  Newsgroup 2              "
  Newsgroup 3              "
  :
  :
  Newsgroup N
> 
> 
>> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
> 
> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?

And just WHERE is this?  Simply not found.
> 
> In summary, while Hogwasher doesn't have the exact same interface as 
> Agent, it would seem to meet a lot of your requirements... unless, of 
> course, the other unspoken requirement is that it _be_ the exact same 
> interface as Agent.

I'm sorry, but almost NONE of my requirements in a Usenet client appear to be 
present in Hogwasher, contrary to your claims for their presence.

Almost ALL Windows apps use the CUI (Common User Interface) originally 
designed by IBM, not the "Lone Ranger" paradigm always used with Apples, and 
currently used by OSX.  

The CUI makes almost all programs look and act very similar.  I see nothing 
wrong with an OSX app looking and acting much like a Windows app.  I am 
COMPLETELY not predjudiced against either OS, as long as BOTH use the CUI.

>> 
>> Anyway, I am encouraged by your product after seeing the wasteland of 
>> OSX Usenet "clients" out there.  You have a good start with a 
>> three-paned view and EASY multiple server configuration (I wasn't even 
>> able to add my OWN Usenet server in the trial version of Unison, 
>> supposedly the "BEST" Usenet "Client" for OSX.
> 
> Really? According to who?  Thoth, MacSoup, Hogwasher, and MT 
> Newswatcher all have their very vocal fans.  Unison is fine if all you 
> want to do is leech.

Leeching is not my cup of tea.  I use Usenet for text discussions, mainly.
> 
>> Try as I might, it KEPT 
>> trying to connect to Panic's OWN premium server, and NEVER would save my 
>> own server configuration.
> 
> Well, I'm no Unison fan, but I didn't have any problem getting it to 
> connect to other servers when I tried it.

I don't know why I had no luck with it.  I followed their instructions FULLY 
and EXACTLY, yet i was STILL unable to save my server configuration, 
resulting in Unison attempting to log on to Panic's server EVERY TIME, 
instead of mine.

> 
>> I guarantee you, it WASN'T because of any 
>> "inexperience" with Usenet software, since I've been using Usenet 
>> software on Wintel platform for MANY years.
> 
> So there you have it.
> 
> People often become comfortable with a specific interface and assume it 
> is the only "right" way to do things.  Any other way just seems 
> "wrong".  I suspect you will not be pleased with anything other than 
> MacAgent... if even then :-)

And what's wrong with an "Agent for Mac"?  It is a mature application and 
very useful.  I am currently trying to increase consciousness at Forte for an 
OSX port, since I am now a Mac person.  Something tells me, however, that 
Forte will never port their darling to OSX UNLESS and UNTIL more Windows 
users go over to OSX.  Even then, I'm still doubtful, as the developers are 
confirmed Windows programmers.

However, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with the FEATURES of Agent in an OSX 
newsreader.  They are EXTREMELY USEFUL features, after all, no matter WHAT OS 
they are implemented on.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
=============================================================================

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:20:30 -0700, Leonard Blaisdell wrote
(in article <leo-9646D7.22203021092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article 
> <PM00040154AEE67F99@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>,
>  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I need a little granularity in composition of text, since I am pretty
>> emotional, and desire to get my emotions across.  I really DON'T like using
>> caps as emphasis, but I have no choice in the matter, since most Usenet
>> clients don't allow for  anything else.
> 
> Quote marks do a "fine" job. Emoticons generally work as an indicator of 
> your demeanor ;-) See! Don't use emoticons in afu though :-(
> 
> leo
> 
> 

I REALLY dislike "emoticons".  They are one of the weirdest ways I know of to 
express emotion.  They are usually contrived, anyway.   They also take 
unnecessary keystrokes.  

If at all possible, I prefer writing as I speak.  In addition, using quote 
marks to provide emphasis is certainly not a normal English convention, while 
using bold, all caps, underlined, or Italics are the preferred ways in 
standard English.  I prefer using standard English conventions when I write, 
not this "neo-speak" which is currently flooding the Internet.

Of course, the conventions I mentioned are usually possible with a Window's 
Usenet client, since most of them allow granular formatting of words or 
phrases of almost any type (allowing HTML, RTF, or Plain Text composition).  
However, such compositions are almost universally detested by Unix geeks, and 
I have yet to find an OSX client which allows such granularity in formatting 
compositions, so I use what I DO have access to and prefer.

Anyway, I am sorry if I've offended you in any way.  It certainly wasn't my 
intention.  I AM more than a little "hard-core" from time to time, I admit.  
If I overstep my bounds, either overlook it, or let me know kindly.


-- 
Donald
=============================================================================

Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from finished, but
> it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.
> 
> Up until now, I've had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It's pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
> work remaining.  In particular, I'm going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

There appears to be a Mac RSS aggregator application named Pineapple
<http://www.postal-code.com/pineapple.php>. It doesn't seem to be in
active development, but you might want to consider a name change now,
while your app is young, to avoid any possible confusion. 

I haven't tried Pineapple News yet, but it looks promising. Best wishes,
and thanks for becoming a Mac developer. 

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:01:49 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
(in article <regdwight-D1EA8A.23014921092005@news.verizon.net>):

> In article <PM00040152ED5B1337@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
>  Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:
> 
>> i'm not seeing his articles unfortunately, just other people's replies to
>> them.  but i'll say unequivocally that i am not him, nor vice versa, nor are
>> we in collusion, nor in fact have i ever even heard of him before.  if i 
>> were
>> the type for that kind of shameless self-promoting, i think you would have
>> heard of me before.  the internet detectives in the audience are hereby
>> encouraged to prove me wrong.
> 
> Hmmm...first time we got the pleasure of "Donald" was a week ago. He 
> came in here calling all Mac clients crap. And then suddenly your app 
> appears and he's just all over the place. Gives one pause...

NOTE that my true name IS Donald L McDaniel.  This is the name I use in EVERY 
Usenet post I make.  It's the name my father put on my Birth Certificate, and 
the name I've been called since then (for 60 years).   I certainly  don't 
mind being called "Donald" by my friends.  To me, the formal spelling of my 
Christian Name makes me feel wanted, usually (not the way you make it appear 
to be almost "dirty", which makes me feel angry instead.)

The fact is, all Mac Usenet clients ARE almost useless to me (at least the 
ones I've come across so far.)

I was a little heartened by Mr. Brunson's announcement of his new client, so 
naturally, I jumped on it right away.  However, after having used it all day, 
it just doesn't live up to my hopes yet (after all, it is still an Alpha, for 
all intents and purposes).  Maybe in a year or two, when it begins to gain a 
little maturity in its development, I will revisit it.   

Perhaps by then I will grow more accustomed to the Mac paradigm, and my 
tastes might change a little, and I will be able to appreciate Mac clients 
more.  Until then, I will have to make do with what I can find, and get used 
to it, since Apple developers only seem inclined to do things THEIR way, and 
won't take any advice from anyone else, apparently.

By the way, I AM reacting more than a little to Mac users' extremely elitist 
attitudes.  Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
way to feel good about themselves.  This is the way minorities usually react 
toward the majority, justified or not.  (I have noticed in my use of the 
Usenet that Windows users seldom express an elitist attitude, while Linux or 
Unix users do.  I can only explain the phenomenon as I have stated.)  

Too bad, as this attitude seems to keep Mac users and developers from 
appropriating some extremely useful paradigms from Windows developers.

In article
<PM00040154570A96F0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>, Donald
L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:

> Because of these features, my Usenet experience in Windows was FUN
> and EASY.

My Usenet experience has been fun and easy on Mac's with Newswatcher
and it's varients for years. Presently using Thoth. I have been on
Windows and the Usenet readers there have been anything but fun. To
each their own I guess.

-- 
Charles

In article <PM0004015373284C88@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
 Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> "self-cleaning."  so in my mind, what's lost in fuzzy-matchedness is made up
> for in speed and ease-of-use.

Let us know when you've got regexp matching working, okay?  I'm waiting 
for the same thing from Panic.  Meanwhile, MT-NW is great!

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <210920052033344579%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
 Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

> I'd say threading, whizz-bang filtering, and handling binaries for the
> PrOn crowd are the top 3 features to concentrate on.

I can't argue with that.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <leo-9646D7.22203021092005@news.supernews.com>,
 Leonard Blaisdell <leo@greatbasin.com> wrote:

> Quote marks do a "fine" job. Emoticons generally work as an indicator of 
> your demeanor ;-) See! Don't use emoticons in afu though :-(

Thing is, quotes already have a meaning in text, and it's not 
*emphasis*.  There are _plenty_ of other methods of apply such.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <1h39jm1.1yb7pxg1krznh6N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, Kathy Morgan
<kmorgan@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Yes, but you want to be able to make an exception to show messages
> crossposted to news.announce.newgroups or that contain RFD or CFV in the
> subject.  

Some may... I gave up on n.a.n and n.g some time ago. Has there
actually been a successful vote held in hte last year?

djb

-- 
Life. Nature's way of keeping meat fresh. -- Dr. Who

> I'm a Unison type of guy. It does everything I need, and has all the eye  
> candy. I know it lacks a lot of the features most people are looking for.

What does it lack?  I've yet to find a newsreader I like.  Presently using  
Opera on Mac and its horrible.  Agent on Windows was great.  I even liked  
OE6 (except its crossposting limitations.)

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three hours 
> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY way I 

> have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
> repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, I 
> must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
> doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting articles.

Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
there open "The Hogwasher Windows".

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.

Look in Hogwasher preferences (that does seem to be the obvious place!) and 
there are options to change both Fonts and Colors.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:25:24 -0400, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5829040023D8D7F0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three 
>> hours 
>> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
>> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY way 
>> I 
> 
>> have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
>> repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, I 
>> must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
>> doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting articles.
> 
> Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
> there open "The Hogwasher Windows".
> 
> 

WHAT!  Actually READ a help file!  For someone who HAS many MANY many 
many MANY many MANY many HOURS of Usenet experience!!!!!!!!  
PREPOSTEROUS!  You must have MISSED the REQUIREMENT that everything 
work EXACTLY like Agent on Windows.

WHAT could you be THINKING?

-- 
Nelson

Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> In particular, I'm going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.

Filtering on Path is important to me.

-- 
Kathy - read reviews of other newsgroups in news:news.groups.reviews
help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>

[f'ups set to news.groups, since this is OT in all of these groups]

Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

> Some may... I gave up on n.a.n and n.g some time ago. Has there
> actually been a successful vote held in hte last year?

Yes, but I can't remember if there were any successful ones that didn't
involve vote fraud or fiat by the n.a.n. moderators.  There is currently
a 30-day moratorium on new proposals while rule changes are being
discussed. Currently, there is a new rule that a vote passes if it gets
at least 50 more YES than NO and YES > 2*NO.  The n.a.n. moderators have
started a discussion to consider possible changes in group creation,
including radical change and doing away with the existing n.a.n.
moderators or no further change.

-- 
Kathy - read reviews of other newsgroups in news:news.groups.reviews
help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 05:30:24 -0400, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Nelson wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF5747DD00228A47F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):
> 
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:12:40 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
>> (in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>>> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which 
>>> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of 
>>> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise, 
>>> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how 
>>> crappy they ALL are.
>> 
>> Really?  Given your "requirements" as outlined below, one can only 
>> wonder how much time you spent with them.  Hogwasher, for example, 
>> seems to do quite a bit of what you want.
>> 
>>> They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are 
>>> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows 
>>> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with 
>>> the Usenet.
>> 
>> Hogwasher has the option to use "the traditional 3-paned display" you 
>> mention below... did you notice that?
> 
> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three hours 
> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.

Click the triangle at the upper right of the Browser Window (not the 
most intuitive thing, I'll admit, but clearly explained in the 
extensive Online Help if you had bothered to look at it.  Might have 
saved yourself "2 or three hours" if you had invested 15 minutes 
reading it).  Click the triangles in the resulting panes to expand the 
other panes.


[Snip]
 
>>> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it, 
>>> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I 
>>> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day
>> 
>> Hogwasher is licensed and isn't free... did you notice that?
> 
> Since I'm not interested in free software, this is not a great consideration.

Then how does one interpret your statement "since I prefer licensed 
software over "free" software any day".


>>> However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of 
>>> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of 
>>> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the 
>>> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might 
>>> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 
>>> does).
>> 
>> Hogwasher allows unlimited servers... did you notice that?  
> 
> I did.  However, I currently only use one server, so it is not a really 
> useful option for me.

I'm trying hard to be charitable here...  so why did you make a big 
deal about "ULNIMITED" servers.  It would be easy for someone to get 
the impression that you are simply an ignorant blowhole who comes in 
and starts criticizing things before knowing how they work... but that 
would be wrong :-)

> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
>>> 
>>> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of 
>>> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.
>> 
>> Hogwasher has the Good Net-working Seal of Approval... did you notice 
>> that?
>> 
>>> Then, add these:
>>> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and 
>>> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.

Did you discover the "Help" Menu Item in your extensive explorations?


>>> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR 
>>> bottom.
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> Well, it does, kind of, in a strange sort of way.  Currently I dont' know how 

> to ungroup newsgroups in a subscription.  Grouping subscriptions may be 
> useful for some, but definitely not me.  Doing this tends to confuse the 
> display of headers, making them almost impossible to follow time-wise.

I haven't a clue what you are referring to.

>>> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
> 
> This is one of my MOST important considerations in purchasing a Usenet 
> client.  I have YET to see this option in Hogwasher.  If it is truly there, 
> please show me.  For that matter, show me how to put a TRUE WATCH on a 
> thread.  I have yet to find an option to set a Watch, and I have dutifully 
> opened EACH sub-menu and looked CAREFULLY for an option to set a Watch on a 
> thread.
> 
>>> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example: 
>>> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages" 
>>> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> If it does, it is a very strange implementation.  But its confusing of 
> newsgroups in the header display is very hard to follow.  I want to see ALL 
> watched threads in ONE newsgroup at a time, not  a confusing tangled display 
> of ALL headers from ALL newsgroups at once.  In addition, Hogwasher has NO 
> Views Editor of ANYKIND (perhaps you don't understand what a "view" is.).  
> And it certainly has no BOOLEAN filtering (have you EVER seen Boolean 
> filtering before?  If you've only used Mac software, I doubt it seriously.  I 

> mean, even Outlook Express for Windows has a Boolean views editor, and almost 

> EVERYONE is united in  their opinion of its ineptness as a Usenet client.

I suggest you take a look at "Filters" (in that pesky Online Help 
again).  You can assign a label to "watched" threads and sort the lists 
by label thereby moving the "watched" threads to the top.

You can subscribe to each newsgroup separately or combine several into 
one subscription.  If you combine them you can sort them by newsgroup 
if you want.

>>> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including 
>>> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads 
>>> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
> 
> Not found anywhere.  In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT, 
> Author, or Date, and that only by clicking on a column header.  And with the 
> confusing of newsgroups in a Subscription grouping, this makes it DOUBLY 
> useless.  There isn't even a "Watched Thread" setting ANYWHERE.  So NO TRUE 
> watches, which are EXTREMELY important to me (and many others).
> 
>>> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n 
>>> ewsgroup pane.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> If it does, I have yet to find it, since I can't even see ALL my subscribed 
> newsgroups in the Browser window (only the alias I gave each subscription 
> grouping.)  Maybe I don't really understand the Subscription Group concept 
> yet.

Aha! A light starts to flicker!

> In addition (and this is a HUGE deficit for Hogwasher)  I have been TOTALLY 
> unable to access any Help file of Hogwasher's.  Therefore, I have been UNABLE 

> to obtain any configuration information for the product.  Even entering a 
> simple search word in the Help search tool results in an UNENDING display of 
> an empty window with a little arrow going round and round, but nothing else.

Ahh, perhaps I have been too quick to judge you.  What version of 
Hogwasher are you using?  Did you download it from the Asar site?  What 
Mac OS version are you using?  The current version is 4.2 and can be 
downloaded from

http://www.asar.com/download.html

See the attached screen shot of what you get when you select "Help".

>>> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup 
>>> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's 
>>> personal taste).
> 
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> This is just not so.   If true, please show me how.  I have found NO option 
> to sort ANY newsgroups ANYWHERE.  Anyway, I have been completely unable to 
> even SEE all my subscribed newsgroups in the Browser window, so I couldn't 
> sort the Newsgroup list even if I wanted to (and I do).

You can drag them into any order you want.  You can even put them in 
subfolders.

>> 
>>> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular 
>>> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along 
>>> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of 
>>> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> I will give Hogwasher that.  However, I have not been able to get my 
> newsgroups arranged under a Grouping alias, with the actual newsgroups all 
> showing, such as:
> 
> "Apple and OSX" (Grouping Alias)
>   Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>   Newsgroup 2              "
>   Newsgroup 3              "
>   :
>   :
>   Newsgroup N
> "Newsreader Support"  (Grouping Alias)
>   Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>   Newsgroup 2              "
>   Newsgroup 3              "
>   :
>   :
>   Newsgroup N

It seems to me you want to view each newsgroup separately but be able 
to organize them into "Groups" (as opposed to combining them all into 
one subscription).  Try creating grouping folders, eg

Apple and OSX (Folder Name)
  Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 1
  Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 2
  Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 3
  etc.

You create a folder using the menu or folder icon, subscribe to the 
newsgroup you want, name it what you want, and then drag it into your 
grouping folder.

I think you are confusing "grouping" with "combining" subscriptions.  
There are good reasons to combine some newsgroups... to avoid seeing 
cross posts for example.  Extremely powerful is that you combine groups 
across different servers to automatically retrieve articles missing on 
the primary server.

>> 
>> 
>>> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
>> 
>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
> 
> And just WHERE is this?  Simply not found.

Select the subscription, select "edit subscription" from the edit menu 
or click the pencil icon.  See the box that says "do not download more 
than xxx"?  You should have seen that when you subscribed also.
>> 
>> In summary, while Hogwasher doesn't have the exact same interface as 
>> Agent, it would seem to meet a lot of your requirements... unless, of 
>> course, the other unspoken requirement is that it _be_ the exact same 
>> interface as Agent.
> 
> I'm sorry, but almost NONE of my requirements in a Usenet client appear to be 

> present in Hogwasher, contrary to your claims for their presence.
> 
> Almost ALL Windows apps use the CUI (Common User Interface) originally 
> designed by IBM, not the "Lone Ranger" paradigm always used with Apples, and 
> currently used by OSX.  
> 
> The CUI makes almost all programs look and act very similar.  I see nothing 
> wrong with an OSX app looking and acting much like a Windows app.  I am 
> COMPLETELY not predjudiced against either OS, as long as BOTH use the CUI.

I'll not rise to that bait :-)

Download a current copy, read the help files, and do get back to us.


-- 
Nelson

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 05:30:24 -0400, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three hours 
> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.

see http://www.asar.com/screenshot1.html

-- 
Nelson

In article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
> way to feel good about themselves. 

See...you're a dick. I'm not in a minority. The platform may have less 
programs for any given use than the PC but those programs are generally 
on a par to, or better than their PC counterpart. And the best part is 
the all run on a decent OS - something Wintel users are still unfamiliar 
with. I guess my BMW puts me in the minority in the automobile world too 
since I'm outnumbered by Toyotas and Nissans, huh?

As I've stated before, I've used Agent and CHRIST what a pile oh shite I 
thought it was. Glad you love it but I'll take any of the handful of 
excellent, well-developed Usenet clients on this side any day.

In article <0001HW.BF583D920030D0C6F04075B0@news.giganews.com>,
 Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

> WHAT!  Actually READ a help file!  For someone who HAS many MANY many 
> many MANY many MANY many HOURS of Usenet experience!!!!!!!!  
> PREPOSTEROUS!  You must have MISSED the REQUIREMENT that everything 
> work EXACTLY like Agent on Windows.
> 
> WHAT could you be THINKING?

LOL! Don is a genius, ya know!

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:37:09 -0400, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:01:49 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
> (in article <regdwight-D1EA8A.23014921092005@news.verizon.net>):
> 
>> In article <PM00040152ED5B1337@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
>> Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> By the way, I AM reacting more than a little to Mac users' extremely elitist 
> attitudes.  Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
> way to feel good about themselves.  This is the way minorities usually react 
> toward the majority, justified or not.  (I have noticed in my use of the 
> Usenet that Windows users seldom express an elitist attitude, while Linux or 
> Unix users do.  I can only explain the phenomenon as I have stated.)  
> 
> Too bad, as this attitude seems to keep Mac users and developers from 
> appropriating some extremely useful paradigms from Windows developers.

Actually, had you asked, for example, "Does anyone know of a Mac 
Newsreader that uses a 3-pane format" instead of ranting that all Mac 
Newsreaders are shit because they don't have one, you would have 
probably received several helpful and friendly replies.

If you wade in slinging shit, expect to get some thrown back.

Manners are useful and not only on Usenet.  I have received lots of 
friendly and useful help here and you will too once you get that WinTel 
chip off your shoulder.



-- 
Nelson

In article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I have noticed in my use of the 
> Usenet that Windows users seldom express an elitist attitude

What a superb sample of irony! Thank you for the laugh.  :-)

For those who might miss it, I'd say that a statement like "people in 
group x seldom express an elitist attitude" is in itself an expression 
of an elitist attitude. "My group is better than yours because we aren't 
elitists." :-)

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:25:24 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5829040023D8D7F0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three 
>> hours 
>> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
>> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY way 
>> I 
> 
>> have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
>> repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, I 
>> must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
>> doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting articles.
> 
> Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
> there open "The Hogwasher Windows".
> 
> 

I'm sorry, my friend, but no such "Hogwasher Overview" seems to exist in my 
installation of Hogwasher.  Clicking on "Help" in the Menu Bar brings up a 
sub-menu, with a SINGLE choice ("Hogwasher Help"). Subsequently clicking on 
that "choice" brings up an empty window, with a search bar in the upper-right 
corner.  

Nothing else, except "Back" and ""Forward" icons, in addition to what appears 
to be a "Home" icon (with a pull-down arrow just to the right) in the 
upper-left.  Clicking on ANY of these icons does absolutely nothing. 

In addition, entering ANY search text in the search bar results in another 
empty window, with a little arrow going round and round, but NO results, even 
after waiting several minutes..

Perhaps you will find it in your heart to explain to me with a little more 
detail how YOU get Help in Hogwasher.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:53:06 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF583D920030D0C6F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:25:24 -0400, TaliesinSoft wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF5829040023D8D7F0284550@news.supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
>> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
>> 
>>> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three 
>>> hours 
>>> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
>>> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY 
>>> way 
>>> I 
>> 
>>> have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
>>> repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, 
>>> I 
>>> must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
>>> doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting 
>>> articles.
>> 
>> Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
>> there open "The Hogwasher Windows".
>> 
>> 
> 
> WHAT!  Actually READ a help file!  For someone who HAS many MANY many 
> many MANY many MANY many HOURS of Usenet experience!!!!!!!!  
> PREPOSTEROUS!  You must have MISSED the REQUIREMENT that everything 
> work EXACTLY like Agent on Windows.
> 
> WHAT could you be THINKING?
> 
> 

What could YOU be thinking, Nelson?  Perhaps if you had actually READ my 
reply to this "helpful" piece of advice you would have seen that I am 
currently UNABLE to access any Hogwasher help files, try as I might.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

"Donald L McDaniel" <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote in message
news:PM00040154570A96F0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom...
>
> If YOU like little meaningless windows everywhere on YOUR desktop, that is
> YOUR business.  If YOU like the disordered view of OSX newsreaders, and
total
> lack of control over what you are presented with in a newsreader, that is
ALSO
> your business.
>
> I don't like it.  And I have JUST as much right to give my input as
ANYONE,
> especially as my platform is now OSX rather than Windows.
>

Amen, brother.  I'm not a Windows-convert but I still prefer a basic 3-paned
newsreader.  They're usually by far the most intuitive newsreaders out
there.  Try as I might to learn to like things like MT-Newswatcher I just
can't.

Greg

In article <11j5v8lepcoqi7f@corp.supernews.com>,
 "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> I'm not a Windows-convert but I still prefer a basic 3-paned
> newsreader.  They're usually by far the most intuitive newsreaders out
> there.  Try as I might to learn to like things like MT-Newswatcher I just
> can't.

Me too. I'm using MT-Newswatcher at the moment, but there are plenty of 
things I don't like about it.  The windows popping up all over the place 
is one thing I dislike (though it isn't the worst one). I just happened 
to find things that I disliked more about all the other choices, so for 
the moment, MT-Newswatcher is what I'm using.

Yes, I've tried pretty much all the other readily available options, 
including all the ones mentioned in this thread. No, I don't like any of 
them. I don't feel up to listing all the reasons at the moment. Heck, I 
don't even recall all the reasons, but I did try all the Mac options.

I've never tried Agent so I don't really know what it is like. I don't 
have Windows available here at work at all, and I have zero interest in 
doing newsreading on my Windows box at home (besides, I want to use the 
same reader both places).

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:23:31 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5852C30035C865F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:37:09 -0400, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:01:49 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
>> (in article <regdwight-D1EA8A.23014921092005@news.verizon.net>):
>> 
>>> In article <PM00040152ED5B1337@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
>>> Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:
> 
> [Snip]
> 
>> By the way, I AM reacting more than a little to Mac users' extremely 
>> elitist 
>> attitudes.  Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
>> way to feel good about themselves.  This is the way minorities usually 
>> react 
>> toward the majority, justified or not.  (I have noticed in my use of the 
>> Usenet that Windows users seldom express an elitist attitude, while Linux 
>> or 
>> Unix users do.  I can only explain the phenomenon as I have stated.)  
>> 
>> Too bad, as this attitude seems to keep Mac users and developers from 
>> appropriating some extremely useful paradigms from Windows developers.
> 
> Actually, had you asked, for example, "Does anyone know of a Mac 
> Newsreader that uses a 3-pane format" instead of ranting that all Mac 
> Newsreaders are shit because they don't have one, you would have 
> probably received several helpful and friendly replies.
> 
> If you wade in slinging shit, expect to get some thrown back.
> 
> Manners are useful and not only on Usenet.  I have received lots of 
> friendly and useful help here and you will too once you get that WinTel 
> chip off your shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> 

You're right, my friend.  But I was extremely frustrated, and vented.  I will 
attempt to be much more polite in the future.  I can be, since it is my 
preferred demeanor.  I was simply not able to access any built-in help for 
Hogwasher.  Whether this was my fault or not, I cannot say.  I can only say 
that I was (and currently am) unable to access Help in Hogwasher.

Please forgive me for my "attitude".  I can only say that changing paradigms 
is hard for me (and everyone, for that matter.)  I'm sure most longtime Mac 
users would be a little frustrated with changing over to the Wintel paradigm, 
and even vent a little. 

However, this does not excuse my attitude.  Politeness is to be preferred in 
ANY paradigm.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 01:06:49 -0700, Leonard Blaisdell wrote
(in article <leo-6C7E75.01064922092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article <0001HW.BF57AC0C006261D5F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I was much too harsh in my retort.  Please forgive me.
> 
> Such is usenet. I have an opinion that is damned near impossible to 
> sway. I'll bet you do too.
> 
> leo
> 
> 

You are definitely right about that, my friend.

As an example, I prefer my vegetables cooked in such a way that I can eat 
them nowadays, since I have long since lost all my teeth, and must "gum" my 
food.

Trying to convince my brother of that, however, is extremely difficult, as he 
is just as stubborn as I am.  He prefers his vegetables to be barely warm 
(just as I did when I had teeth).

When you get older, you learn to compromise.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:27:06 -0500, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF58458A00755706F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Perhaps you will find it in your heart to explain to me with a little more 
> detail how YOU get Help in Hogwasher.

I'll give it a try....

I'm running Hogwasher 4.2 under Mac OS X 10.4.2.

When Hogwasher is the active application the Help menu presents me with the 
single option, Hogwasher Help. Clicking on that single option brings up a 
window presenting me with the following options:

     What's new in 4.2?

     What's new in 4.1?

     Quick Start

     Using the Online Help

     Registration and Setup

     Hogwasher Overview

     Hogwasher Reference

     For New Hogwasher Users

     For Existing Hogwasher Users

     Usenet Primer

     Encoding Reference

     Shortcuts and Hints

     Troubleshooting

In turn, each of the above, when selected, presents another list of options. 
When one of those is selected one then gets a detailed explanation of how to 
use a particular Hogwasher feature.

The Hogwasher help files, all 3.4 MB of them, are located within the 
Hogwasher Help folder within the Resources folder which in turn is located 
within the Hogwasher application package.

I hope this helps a bit. If not, please feel to post additional queries and I 
will be glad to try to help.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:27:06 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF58458A00755706F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:25:24 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF5829040023D8D7F0284550@news.supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
>> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
>> 

[Snip]
 
>> Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
>> there open "The Hogwasher Windows".
>> 
>> 
> 
> I'm sorry, my friend, but no such "Hogwasher Overview" seems to exist in my 
> installation of Hogwasher.  Clicking on "Help" in the Menu Bar brings up a 
> sub-menu, with a SINGLE choice ("Hogwasher Help"). Subsequently clicking on 
> that "choice" brings up an empty window, with a search bar in the upper-right 

> corner.  
> 
> Nothing else, except "Back" and ""Forward" icons, in addition to what appears 

> to be a "Home" icon (with a pull-down arrow just to the right) in the 
> upper-left.  Clicking on ANY of these icons does absolutely nothing. 
> 
> In addition, entering ANY search text in the search bar results in another 
> empty window, with a little arrow going round and round, but NO results, even 

> after waiting several minutes..
> 
> Perhaps you will find it in your heart to explain to me with a little more 
> detail how YOU get Help in Hogwasher.

Hmm.  I suggest you delete the Hogwasher folder, download a fresh copy 
from www.asar.com and reinstall it.  You are using OS X, right? and 
Hogwasher 4.2.2 right?


-- 
Nelson

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:59:36 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
(in article <regdwight-B12668.08593622092005@news.verizon.net>):

> In article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
>> way to feel good about themselves. 
> 
> See...you're a dick. I'm not in a minority. The platform may have less 
> programs for any given use than the PC but those programs are generally 
> on a par to, or better than their PC counterpart. 

Really?  Wow!, I must have been missing out on the Apple-developed office 
desktop app (isn't it called "AppleWorks"?) all those years I was using 
Microsoft Office for Windows instead.  I guess I was just a poor, deluded 
Microsoft dupe.  But I'm all better now, because my Desktop is now OSX.

> And the best part is 
> the all run on a decent OS - something Wintel users are still unfamiliar 
> with. 

Here I will have to agree with you, after having used both Oses.  I DO love 
OSX on my "new" G5.

> I guess my BMW puts me in the minority in the automobile world too 
> since I'm outnumbered by Toyotas and Nissans, huh?

So there are ACTUALLY MORE BMWs sold in the world than Toyotas and Nissans?  
Wow!  I simply must have been COMPLETELY out of the loop for the last 60 
years.  Maybe I better move into town, and get me a BMW.  Then I can crow 
about it on the Usenet, just like you.  Think of it:  I will no longer be 
alone in the world.  What a concept!

> 
> As I've stated before, I've used Agent and CHRIST what a pile oh shite I 
> thought it was. Glad you love it but I'll take any of the handful of 
> excellent, well-developed Usenet clients on this side any day.

So there are ACTUALLY MORE Mac desktops in the world than Windows desktops?  
This is really an EYE-OPENER for me!

Here I was thinking that Apple had an EXTREMELY SMALL market share of the 
Desktop market, and all this time, it was really Apple which had the greatest 
market share, instead of Microsoft.

There is just no accounting for all that propaganda put out by Microsoft, is 
there?  I guess it's time to stop listening to all those reports issued by 
Wall Street types, and start listening to Steve Jobs and his Children 
instead.  Thanks for enlightening me!  I don't' know what I would have done, 
remaining in my delusions all these many years.


You know, I learned a long time ago, "if the shoe fits, wear it."  If I am an 
"elitist", then so be it.  If an "elitist" is a man who loves the TRUTH, then 
I certainly am one.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> what are you calling "standard unix news format?"  mbox? 

or rnews batch for a series of articles

> but to tell you the truth, i didn't have that kind of thing on the rader even,
> because i wasn't aware that people keep archives with usenet clients very
> much?  i mean, *i* do, and that's why i wrote the existing import
> functionality, that can turn plain-text rfc822 message files into pineapple
> messages.  it wouldn't take much to automate import and export, i guess.  but
> is such a thing actually used or needed?  what would you do with it?

Well, I presently maintain years of posts (on topics other than
computing) in MacSoup, that it can export to both formats. This means I
can switch easily from it tp PN just by exporting from MS and importing
in PN, if for instance I find Spotlight works in PN (doesn't in MS).

But this very feature in MS, I want to keep it. You may find me a bit
blunt, but I don't want to lock my data in PN proprietary format (which
I understand is necessary for indexing, etc.). To me this applies to
just *any* new software I consider. I must be able to reexport my data
away, if need be. And as concerns newsgroups the formats exist, are well
documented, open and all: that's one of the easiest domains :-)


> i'm not being facetious, i'm serious.  i've never heard anybody ask about
> import and export before.

Also, more trivially, I'll never be able to switch if I cannot import my
old posts...

HTH,
Herv�

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:29:03 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5829DF00240C22F0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
>> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.
> 
> Look in Hogwasher preferences (that does seem to be the obvious place!) and 
> there are options to change both Fonts and Colors.
> 
> 

I found those "preferences" immediately after installing Hogwasher (after 
all, EVERY OSX program I've come across to date has a "Preferences" selection 
below the name of the program in the Menu bar.  It's kind of hard to miss.   
In addition, the first thing I do when setting up a new client is set all the 
preferences I possibly can.)  Apparently, Hogwasher's Font/Colors 
"preferences" are EXTREMELY limited in their effectiveness.  I don't want to 
change the colors for each level of reply in a downloaded body, I want to SET 
a WATCH and have all replies recolored the same way, and set different sizes 
and fonts for EACH possible  type of display element.

Apparently,  Hogwasher only allows for THREE display elements, namely, the 
Browser text, the Headers listing text, and the Body text, with NO 
granularity for 99% of the possible display elements.

There appears to be NO understanding of "setting a Watch" or "bubbling 
Watched Articles to the top of the display", so there is no way to even SET 
the color or font of a Watched thread, since such a concept does not appear 
to even exist in Hogwasher.  However, Hogwasher is NOT alone in this huge 
lack, as EVERY OSX news client I have tried in the last week seem to follow 
Hogwasher's example.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:43:08 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF58494C0033904DF04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 05:30:24 -0400, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:24:45 -0700, Nelson wrote
>> (in article <0001HW.BF5747DD00228A47F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):
>> 
>>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:12:40 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
>>> (in article <11j3c5fjn6cvn74@corp.supernews.com>):
>>> 
>>> [snip]
>>> 
>>>> I can't believe I'm having to use THUNDERBIRD as a Usenet client (which 
>>>> I NEVER would have used in a Windows environment) on my G5, for lack of 
>>>> a decent Usenet client for OSX.  And don't try to convince me otherwise, 
>>>> since I've TRIED all the OSX "clients" (what a LAUGH!), and I KNOW how 
>>>> crappy they ALL are.
>>> 
>>> Really?  Given your "requirements" as outlined below, one can only 
>>> wonder how much time you spent with them.  Hogwasher, for example, 
>>> seems to do quite a bit of what you want.
>>> 
>>>> They MAY be "good-looking" gew-gaws, but are 
>>>> totally unusable as everyday Usenet clients.  They spread weird windows 
>>>> everywhere on the Desktop, which just makes me NOT want to bother with 
>>>> the Usenet.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher has the option to use "the traditional 3-paned display" you 
>>> mention below... did you notice that?
>> 
>> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three 
>> hours 
>> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
>> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.
> 
> Click the triangle at the upper right of the Browser Window (not the 
> most intuitive thing, I'll admit, but clearly explained in the 
> extensive Online Help if you had bothered to look at it.  Might have 
> saved yourself "2 or three hours" if you had invested 15 minutes 
> reading it).  Click the triangles in the resulting panes to expand the 
> other panes.
> 
> 
> [Snip]
>  
>>>> I am anxious to see a decent and FULLY-BOOLEAN "Views" editor in it, 
>>>> however.  Then I might think about purchasing your product, since I 
>>>> prefer licensed software over "free" software any day
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher is licensed and isn't free... did you notice that?
>> 
>> Since I'm not interested in free software, this is not a great 
>> consideration.
> 
> Then how does one interpret your statement "since I prefer licensed 
> software over "free" software any day".
> 
> 
>>>> However, even FreeAgent 3.1 (Forte's free edition of 
>>>> Agent 3.1) allows for FULL use of the  Views Editor and decoding of 
>>>> binary data, although I'm not completely sure (since I've never used the 
>>>> free product) that it allows multiple server configurations (it might 
>>>> allow for 2 or three servers, but not UNLIMITED servers, as Agent 3.1 
>>>> does).
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher allows unlimited servers... did you notice that?  
>> 
>> I did.  However, I currently only use one server, so it is not a really 
>> useful option for me.
> 
> I'm trying hard to be charitable here...  so why did you make a big 
> deal about "ULNIMITED" servers.  It would be easy for someone to get 
> the impression that you are simply an ignorant blowhole who comes in 
> and starts criticizing things before knowing how they work... but that 
> would be wrong :-)
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> A few more ideas for a decent Usenet client:
>>>> 
>>>> First and foremost, it MUST fully adhere to the Good Net-working Seal of 
>>>> Approval for Usenet Clients 2.0 standards.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher has the Good Net-working Seal of Approval... did you notice 
>>> that?
>>> 
>>>> Then, add these:
>>>> 1) The ability to completely change such things as ALL text colors and 
>>>> fonts (and font sizes), etc. in ANY view.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
>> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.
> 
> Did you discover the "Help" Menu Item in your extensive explorations?
> 
> 
>>>> 2) The ability to sort message lists with NEWEST threads at the top OR 
>>>> bottom.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> Well, it does, kind of, in a strange sort of way.  Currently I dont' know 
>> how 
> 
>> to ungroup newsgroups in a subscription.  Grouping subscriptions may be 
>> useful for some, but definitely not me.  Doing this tends to confuse the 
>> display of headers, making them almost impossible to follow time-wise.
> 
> I haven't a clue what you are referring to.
> 
>>>> 3) The ability to "bubble" WATCHED threads to the top of the display.
>> 
>> This is one of my MOST important considerations in purchasing a Usenet 
>> client.  I have YET to see this option in Hogwasher.  If it is truly there, 
>> please show me.  For that matter, show me how to put a TRUE WATCH on a 
>> thread.  I have yet to find an option to set a Watch, and I have dutifully 
>> opened EACH sub-menu and looked CAREFULLY for an option to set a Watch on a 
>> thread.
>> 
>>>> 4) The ability to TRULY thread messages in ANY View (example: 
>>>> Thunderbird only allows one to thread messages in the "ALL Messages" 
>>>> view.)  This is really a waste of screen-space (and mouse clicks).
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> If it does, it is a very strange implementation.  But its confusing of 
>> newsgroups in the header display is very hard to follow.  I want to see ALL 
>> watched threads in ONE newsgroup at a time, not  a confusing tangled 
>> display 
>> of ALL headers from ALL newsgroups at once.  In addition, Hogwasher has NO 
>> Views Editor of ANYKIND (perhaps you don't understand what a "view" is.).  
>> And it certainly has no BOOLEAN filtering (have you EVER seen Boolean 
>> filtering before?  If you've only used Mac software, I doubt it seriously.  
>> I 
> 
>> mean, even Outlook Express for Windows has a Boolean views editor, and 
>> almost 
> 
>> EVERYONE is united in  their opinion of its ineptness as a Usenet client.
> 
> I suggest you take a look at "Filters" (in that pesky Online Help 
> again).  You can assign a label to "watched" threads and sort the lists 
> by label thereby moving the "watched" threads to the top.
> 
> You can subscribe to each newsgroup separately or combine several into 
> one subscription.  If you combine them you can sort them by newsgroup 
> if you want.
> 
>>>> 5) The ability to sort messages according to STATUS (including 
>>>> "Watched") in EITHER direction.  This should bubble all watched threads 
>>>> either to the TOP of the display, OR the bottom.
>> 
>> Not found anywhere.  In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT, 
>> Author, or Date, and that only by clicking on a column header.  And with 
>> the 
>> confusing of newsgroups in a Subscription grouping, this makes it DOUBLY 
>> useless.  There isn't even a "Watched Thread" setting ANYWHERE.  So NO TRUE 
>> watches, which are EXTREMELY important to me (and many others).
>> 
>>>> 6) The ability to give servers and newsgroups aliases in the Server/n 
>>>> ewsgroup pane.
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> If it does, I have yet to find it, since I can't even see ALL my subscribed 
>> newsgroups in the Browser window (only the alias I gave each subscription 
>> grouping.)  Maybe I don't really understand the Subscription Group concept 
>> yet.
> 
> Aha! A light starts to flicker!
> 
>> In addition (and this is a HUGE deficit for Hogwasher)  I have been TOTALLY 
>> unable to access any Help file of Hogwasher's.  Therefore, I have been 
>> UNABLE 
> 
>> to obtain any configuration information for the product.  Even entering a 
>> simple search word in the Help search tool results in an UNENDING display 
>> of 
>> an empty window with a little arrow going round and round, but nothing else.
> 
> Ahh, perhaps I have been too quick to judge you.  What version of 
> Hogwasher are you using?  Did you download it from the Asar site?  What 
> Mac OS version are you using?  The current version is 4.2 and can be 
> downloaded from
> 
> http://www.asar.com/download.html
> 
> See the attached screen shot of what you get when you select "Help".
> 
>>>> 7) The ability to easily arrange those aliases in the Server/newsgroup 
>>>> pane (including an alphabetical sort, or not, according to one's 
>>>> personal taste).
>> 
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> This is just not so.   If true, please show me how.  I have found NO option 
>> to sort ANY newsgroups ANYWHERE.  Anyway, I have been completely unable to 
>> even SEE all my subscribed newsgroups in the Browser window, so I couldn't 
>> sort the Newsgroup list even if I wanted to (and I do).
> 
> You can drag them into any order you want.  You can even put them in 
> subfolders.
> 
>>> 
>>>> 8) Easy access to the complete list of Newsgroups on a particular 
>>>> server, and an easy ability to add (subscribe) to a newsgroup, along 
>>>> with a separation of the complete list of ALL newsgroups and the list of 
>>>> subscribed newsgroups showing in the Server/newsgroups pane.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> I will give Hogwasher that.  However, I have not been able to get my 
>> newsgroups arranged under a Grouping alias, with the actual newsgroups all 
>> showing, such as:
>> 
>> "Apple and OSX" (Grouping Alias)
>> Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>> Newsgroup 2              "
>> Newsgroup 3              "
>>> 
>>> 
>> Newsgroup N
>> "Newsreader Support"  (Grouping Alias)
>> Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>> Newsgroup 2              "
>> Newsgroup 3              "
>>> 
>>> 
>> Newsgroup N
> 
> It seems to me you want to view each newsgroup separately but be able 
> to organize them into "Groups" (as opposed to combining them all into 
> one subscription).  Try creating grouping folders, eg
> 
> Apple and OSX (Folder Name)
>   Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 1
>   Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 2
>   Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 3
>   etc.
> 
> You create a folder using the menu or folder icon, subscribe to the 
> newsgroup you want, name it what you want, and then drag it into your 
> grouping folder.

This is exactly what I have done.

Where it IMMEDIATELY hides from sight.  Please show me how to display my 
subscribed newsgroups as I have stated.

> 
> I think you are confusing "grouping" with "combining" subscriptions.  
> There are good reasons to combine some newsgroups... to avoid seeing 
> cross posts for example.  Extremely powerful is that you combine groups 
> across different servers to automatically retrieve articles missing on 
> the primary server.
> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
>>> 
>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>> 
>> And just WHERE is this?  Simply not found.
> 
> Select the subscription, select "edit subscription" from the edit menu 
> or click the pencil icon.  See the box that says "do not download more 
> than xxx"?  You should have seen that when you subscribed also.

First thing I did.  Whether it brings in up to 1000 articles for each 
newsgroup or not is not readily apparent, since all my subscriptions seem to 
be combined into one huge Header display.  I do not like this at all, and was 
NOTHING like I am used to in a Windows client.

>>> 
>>> In summary, while Hogwasher doesn't have the exact same interface as 
>>> Agent, it would seem to meet a lot of your requirements... unless, of 
>>> course, the other unspoken requirement is that it _be_ the exact same 
>>> interface as Agent.
>> 
>> I'm sorry, but almost NONE of my requirements in a Usenet client appear to 
>> be 
> 
>> present in Hogwasher, contrary to your claims for their presence.
>> 
>> Almost ALL Windows apps use the CUI (Common User Interface) originally 
>> designed by IBM, not the "Lone Ranger" paradigm always used with Apples, 
>> and 
>> currently used by OSX.  
>> 
>> The CUI makes almost all programs look and act very similar.  I see nothing 
>> wrong with an OSX app looking and acting much like a Windows app.  I am 
>> COMPLETELY not predjudiced against either OS, as long as BOTH use the CUI.
> 
> I'll not rise to that bait :-)

I'm not trying to "bait" you my friend.  I am trying to obtain useful 
information about Hogwasher.  But apparently, all Mac users want to do is 
attempt to insult ex-Windows users.

> 
> Download a current copy, read the help files, and do get back to us.



Note my version of Hogwasher: 4.2.2
Also note that I currently gain NO information for the apparently 
non-existent  "Help" in Hogwasher (for all I know.  I am not a complete 
idiot, as you apparently think I am.  I can see the Menu Bar "Help" selection 
PLAINLY at this moment.

However, as I have previously stated, 
1) Clicking on "Help" in the Menu bar brings up a sub-menu, with a SINGLE 
choice on it.  Namely "Hogwasher Help"
2) Subsequent clicking of that single choice brings up a "Help Viewer" app, 
with an empty Search window (except for a search bar).
3) Subsequent entry of ANY search text in the Search bar results in a small 
arrow going round and round endlessly, with NOTHING returned.




-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:19:11 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF585FCF007B7F18F0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:29:03 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF5829DF00240C22F0284550@news.supernews.com>):
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
>> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
>> 
>>> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or NO 
>>> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.
>> 
>> Look in Hogwasher preferences (that does seem to be the obvious place!) and 
>> there are options to change both Fonts and Colors.
>> 
>> 
> 
> I found those "preferences" immediately after installing Hogwasher (after 
> all, EVERY OSX program I've come across to date has a "Preferences" selection 

> below the name of the program in the Menu bar.  It's kind of hard to miss.   
> In addition, the first thing I do when setting up a new client is set all the 

> preferences I possibly can.)  Apparently, Hogwasher's Font/Colors 
> "preferences" are EXTREMELY limited in their effectiveness.  I don't want to 
> change the colors for each level of reply in a downloaded body, I want to SET 

> a WATCH and have all replies recolored the same way, and set different sizes 
> and fonts for EACH possible  type of display element.
> 
> Apparently,  Hogwasher only allows for THREE display elements, namely, the 
> Browser text, the Headers listing text, and the Body text, with NO 
> granularity for 99% of the possible display elements.
> 
> There appears to be NO understanding of "setting a Watch" or "bubbling 
> Watched Articles to the top of the display", so there is no way to even SET 
> the color or font of a Watched thread, since such a concept does not appear 
> to even exist in Hogwasher.  However, Hogwasher is NOT alone in this huge 
> lack, as EVERY OSX news client I have tried in the last week seem to follow 
> Hogwasher's example.

Again, rather than asking *how* one would do it, you blast off that 
there is NO WAY to do it (as in EVERY OSX client).  Get a grip.

Select a message.  Select "New Filter by Subject (or Author) from the 
message menu pull down.  Under the "Actions" Tab select label and 
select the color you want.  The next time you download messages, that 
thread will be "watched" and colored the color you selected. You can 
even give them a textual name and select from a bazillion colors. To 
have watched threads "bubble to the top", sort the message list by the 
label column, ie click in the label column.

-- 
Nelson

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:19:19 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF585FD7007B80DDF0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):



[Snip]

>>> I will give Hogwasher that.  However, I have not been able to get my 
>>> newsgroups arranged under a Grouping alias, with the actual newsgroups all 
>>> showing, such as:
>>> 
>>> "Apple and OSX" (Grouping Alias)
>>> Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>>> Newsgroup 2              "
>>> Newsgroup 3              "
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Newsgroup N
>>> "Newsreader Support"  (Grouping Alias)
>>> Newsgroup 1  (true newsgroup name)
>>> Newsgroup 2              "
>>> Newsgroup 3              "
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> Newsgroup N
>> 
>> It seems to me you want to view each newsgroup separately but be able 
>> to organize them into "Groups" (as opposed to combining them all into 
>> one subscription).  Try creating grouping folders, eg
>> 
>> Apple and OSX (Folder Name)
>> Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 1
>> Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 2
>> Your OWN PERSONAL alias for Newsgroup 3
>> etc.
>> 
>> You create a folder using the menu or folder icon, subscribe to the 
>> newsgroup you want, name it what you want, and then drag it into your 
>> grouping folder.
> 
> This is exactly what I have done.
> 
> Where it IMMEDIATELY hides from sight.  Please show me how to display my 
> subscribed newsgroups as I have stated.

I have no idea what you mean "hides from sight".  Did you look at the 
example at

   http://www.asar.com/screenshot1.html

Is the folder you created collapsed maybe?  Click the little triangle 
next to it to expand and collapse.

> 
>> 
>> I think you are confusing "grouping" with "combining" subscriptions.  
>> There are good reasons to combine some newsgroups... to avoid seeing 
>> cross posts for example.  Extremely powerful is that you combine groups 
>> across different servers to automatically retrieve articles missing on 
>> the primary server.
>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 9) The ability to download ANY NUMBER of the NEWEST headers at ANY time.
>>>> 
>>>> Hogwasher does this... did you notice that?
>>> 
>>> And just WHERE is this?  Simply not found.
>> 
>> Select the subscription, select "edit subscription" from the edit menu 
>> or click the pencil icon.  See the box that says "do not download more 
>> than xxx"?  You should have seen that when you subscribed also.
> 
> First thing I did.  Whether it brings in up to 1000 articles for each 
> newsgroup or not is not readily apparent, since all my subscriptions seem to 
> be combined into one huge Header display.  I do not like this at all, and was 

> NOTHING like I am used to in a Windows client.

Let me try again:  don't group the newsgroups into a single 
subscription, ie subscribe to them one at a time.  Then group the 
individual subscriptions into a *Folder*.  If you select multiple 
newsgroups at the same time from the newsgroup list window, they will 
all be combined into a single subscription... which I take it is *not* 
what you want.

Every subscription is an individual element in the browser window.  
Every subscription may contain one or more newsgroups.  If it contains 
more than one, they will be merged.  You can group individual 
subscriptions using folders.

[Snip]

> Note my version of Hogwasher: 4.2.2
> Also note that I currently gain NO information for the apparently 
> non-existent  "Help" in Hogwasher (for all I know.  I am not a complete 
> idiot, as you apparently think I am.  I can see the Menu Bar "Help" selection 

> PLAINLY at this moment.
> 
> However, as I have previously stated, 
> 1) Clicking on "Help" in the Menu bar brings up a sub-menu, with a SINGLE 
> choice on it.  Namely "Hogwasher Help"
> 2) Subsequent clicking of that single choice brings up a "Help Viewer" app, 
> with an empty Search window (except for a search bar).
> 3) Subsequent entry of ANY search text in the Search bar results in a small 
> arrow going round and round endlessly, with NOTHING returned.

Click on the Help Menu in some other applications. For example, in the 
Finder you should see "Mac Help" and when you bring that up you should 
see all the Mac help screens.  It sometimes takes a little while for 
reasons I don't understand... I think it tries to run out to the web 
looking for updates.

If none of your Help screens come up the problem isn't Hogwasher.  If 
every one but Hogwasher's comes up,  reinstall Hogwasher as I suggested 
elsewhere.  It it still doesn't come up, I don't no what else to tell 
you.  I have never heard of anyone else with that problem.


-- 
Nelson

Walt Basil wrote:
> On 2005-09-20 14:59:59 -0600, Allen Brunson 
> <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> said:
> 
>> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It’s far from 
>> finished, but
>> it’s come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot 
>> better
>> in the next few.
>>
>> Up until now, I’ve had only three users, because I wanted to deal with 
>> a small
>> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  
>> It’s pretty
>> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see 
>> it.  I am
>> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me 
>> prioritize the
>> work remaining.  In particular, I’m going to be starting work on 
>> filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I’ll be interested to hear what people use 
>> filters for
>> in other newsreaders.
>>
>> Thanks for having a look.
>>
>>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/
> 
> 
> 50 % of my decision on which program I use is based on the interface. I 
> don't require many features. I would not use Pineapple simply because of 
> the way it looks. Looks like something from the Classic days brought 
> over to X. Maybe because of the icons, I don't know. I'm a Unison type 
> of guy. It does everything I need, and has all the eye candy. I know it 
> lacks a lot of the features most people are looking for.

I am using thunderbird as news reader now, and after looking at the 
pineapple screenshots I must say pineapple looks better actually. just 
the pineapple icon and the icons used in the program somehow don't look 
right. the pineapple icon clearly has too many colors. Just compare it 
with other icons, like the iCal, thunderbird, mail, safari etc icons! 
They restrain themselves to mostly one or two colors. You should do the 
same, it looks cleaner and nicer, less confusing.

Markus

In article <0001HW.BF58965E003C72E0F04075B0@news.giganews.com>, Nelson
<nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

> Again, rather than asking *how* one would do it, you blast off that 
> there is NO WAY to do it (as in EVERY OSX client).  Get a grip.

You can also do it in other OS X newsreaders. I color threads and
messages in Thoth and have filtered messages and threads sorted to the
top.

-- 
Charles

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:25:24 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5829040023D8D7F0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Sorry, but I am in Hogwasher right at this minute.   And in 2 or three 
>> hours 
>> of using it, I have YET to see a "traditional 3-paned display" option 
>> ANYWHERE.   Please show me HOW to set this option.  Currently, the ONLY way 
>> I 
> 
>> have found to have the three-paned view is by manually resizing and 
>> repositioning each pane (browser, Headers list, and body pane).  However, I 
>> must do this with EACH subscription grouping.  It really takes all my time 
>> doing this: time which could better be used in reading and posting articles.
> 
> Take a look in Hogwasher's online help? Open "Hogwasher Overview" and from 
> there open "The Hogwasher Windows".
> 
> 

I just wanted you to know that I finally was able to access a true 
three-paned display in Hogwasher when my brother showed me how.  Evidently I 
was missing knowing how to access all of an OSX application's GUI elements.  
He showed me a small arrow at the very bottom of the the display which 
enabled a three-paned display.  I had completely missed this because the Dock 
hid it from view.

However, I am STILL unable to access any built-in Help.  Even he was unable 
to access Help (and he has several years under his belt of using Mac apps.)


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF588C380082E318F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I just wanted you to know that I finally was able to access a true 
> three-paned display in Hogwasher when my brother showed me how.  Evidently I 

You *like* 3-paned newsreaders?  :-o  Can't stand 'em, meself.  I like 
being able to use the WHOLE SCREEN for whatever I'm actually LOOKING AT.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

"Howard S Shubs" <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message
news:howard-2CA0B3.19424422092005@news.supernews.com...
> In article <0001HW.BF588C380082E318F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>
> > I just wanted you to know that I finally was able to access a true
> > three-paned display in Hogwasher when my brother showed me how.
Evidently I
>
> You *like* 3-paned newsreaders?  :-o  Can't stand 'em, meself.  I like
> being able to use the WHOLE SCREEN for whatever I'm actually LOOKING AT.
>

You need ALL OF A 23" SCREEN to read 3 sentences?

Greg

In article <11j6k5237cn03b@corp.supernews.com>,
 "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> You need ALL OF A 23" SCREEN to read 3 sentences?

Generally, the more interesting articles are longer.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Of course, the conventions I mentioned are usually possible with a Window's
> Usenet client, since most of them allow granular formatting of words or
> phrases of almost any type (allowing HTML, RTF, or Plain Text composition).
> However, such compositions are almost universally detested by Unix geeks, and
> I have yet to find an OSX client which allows such granularity in formatting
> compositions,

That's probably just as well.  Many of us ignore all HTML formatted
posts.  They're easy to recognize without even downloading them, so I
ignore them except in newuser groups.

FWIW, many clients will recognize the asterisk, underscore, and slant to
indicate *bold* _underline_ and /italics/.  Even those of us using
clients that don't interpret them can interpret them appropriately, and
they don't bloat the size of the post. Appropriate use of CAPS, *, _,
and / can be used to add emphasis in a post.

-- 
Kathy - help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>
OE-quotefix can fix OE:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/> 

Allen Brunson <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote:

> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from finished, but
> it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot better
> in the next few.
> 
> Up until now, I've had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It's pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it.  I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize the
> work remaining.  In particular, I'm going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use filters for
> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Thanks for having a look.
> 
>   http://www.platinumball.net/pineapple/news/macosx/

Why haven't you given each thread a tree-interface like the one used in
graph theory and MacSOUP.

For sure, MacSOUP has lots of drawbacks like the lack of support of
multiple servers at the same time, and the lack of full support of
unicode. But I simply can't do without its tree-interface.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> Much better to killscore (normally*) which means that you bring
> down the headers and leave the bodies on the server.  That way,
> not only can you keep track of what's going on, but the headers
> are there for reference, if needed.

Furthermore, with the fast connections we have to-day {2 Mbit down on my
ADSL, soon most cable tv systems will provide internet access with at
least 10 Mbit down and up}, it doesn't really matter whether they are
downloaded or not. What matters is that you don't /see/ the junk
articles, and waste time on them.

But of course, the whole of the junk articles are downloaded instead of
just the headers, it gives larger files to back-up.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:

> I don't know if you noticed it, PAOLO, but caps are ALSO used to provide
> emphasis, not just to "yell", as you apparently think it ALWAYS means .  Now,
> if more modern newsreaders allowed for HTML or Rich Text editing (many Windows
> Newsreadsers do), and Unix traditionalists didn't weep like babies and have an
> apoplexic fit each time they see a word with helpful formatting, there would
> be no need for caps as emphasis on a word, since we would be able to format
> the text we want to emphasize as Underlined or Italic.  By the way, that's not
> the same as formatting ALL text as Underlined or Italic, as this newsreader
> apparently only allows.  It would be great if the formatting was granular down
> to the single word level, but it's not.
> 
> I need a little granularity in composition of text, since I am pretty
> emotional, and desire to get my emotions across.  I really DON'T like using
> caps as emphasis, but I have no choice in the matter, since most Usenet
> clients don't allow for  anything else.

It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and
underline as _underline_. Proper newsreaders might even show it as
italics, bold and underline, and send it with slashes, asterisks and
underline chars. For compatibility reasons.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT

Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
in the same thread:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I had completely missed this because the Dock hid it from view.

Yes, the Dock is one of the few drawbacks of MacOS X. Personally, I use
QuicKeys, ASM and AliasMenu instead:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:

> The fact is, I was VERY specific because I am used to having almost ALL
> features I stated with MOST Windows newsreaders. 

Try using MS Entourage {part of MS Office} as a newsreader. I think that
is the kind of stuff you want.

Personally, I use it for mail and calendar. And MacSOUP for news.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I'm sure most longtime Mac users would be a little frustrated with
> changing over to the Wintel paradigm, and even vent a little.

I think most "longtime" Mac users are quite familiar with the Wintel
paradigm. Actually, right now I sit with three computers. My G4/867 that
I'm writing this on. An IBM Thinkpad R50 for dictionaries and the like
{it's a laptop too, of course}. And a Windows desktop with a tv tuner
which at present records Rossini's opera "Semiramide" from tv for
burning on DVDs:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:59:36 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
> (in article <regdwight-B12668.08593622092005@news.verizon.net>):
> 
> > In article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
> >  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
> >> way to feel good about themselves. 
> > 
> > See...you're a dick. I'm not in a minority. The platform may have less
> > programs for any given use than the PC but those programs are generally
> > on a par to, or better than their PC counterpart. 

Actually, there are kinds of programs that don't come to MacOS. Like
bilingual dictionaries {Danish-English-Danish, Danish-German-Danish} -
and the number one English-English dictionary {Oxford English
Dictionary, all 23 volumes on the harddisk - Windows only}. You have to
use a Windoze computer for this reason, 

> Really?  Wow!, I must have been missing out on the Apple-developed office
> desktop app (isn't it called "AppleWorks"?) all those years I was using
> Microsoft Office for Windows instead.  I guess I was just a poor, deluded
> Microsoft dupe.

Word and Excel was two of the first applications that came for the
Macintosh - they have been around for around 20 years. And I used Word
to write my MSc thesis report 15 years ago - 200 pages.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On news.software.readers, in
<1h3c2oq.1ooia0brsb84eN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>, "Per Rnne"
<non-us-ascii characters deleted> wrote:
<body not downloaded>

Either Google Groups failed to process your alias because of the
non-us-ascii characters or you have no posting history.

Your search - author:<non-us-ascii characters deleted> - did not
match any documents.

You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in the
From: header, but you probably know that.

Killscored: I'll never see anything but your headers.

That's what I do with people who make it impossible to
check their posting history. Or have none and are obviously
experienced Useneters.

Have a day. Someplace else,

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in the
> From: header, but you probably know that.

Every Dane or Norwegian uses the '�' in the from header if that is part
of his name. Every German uses the '�' in the from header, if that is
part of his name.

Usenet isn't restricted to obsolete US servers that don't even support
ISO Latin 1.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:55:20 -0400, Per R=F8nne wrote
(in article <1h3c318.9n69xv10gm9ibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT
> 
> Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
> subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
> in the same thread:-).
> 

As usual, Mr. McDaniel is wrong.  You can sort by any column 
(subject,date, thread, newsgroup, etc) merely by clicking on the column 
header and you can sort in ascending or descending order.

What a font of misinformation.

-- 
Nelson

Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:55:20 -0400, Per R�nne wrote
> (in article <1h3c318.9n69xv10gm9ibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> > Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> >> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT

> > Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
> > subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
> > in the same thread:-).

> As usual, Mr. McDaniel is wrong.  You can sort by any column 
> (subject,date, thread, newsgroup, etc) merely by clicking on the column
> header and you can sort in ascending or descending order.

Yes, but usually by thread if you're watching a newsgroup.

> What a font of misinformation.

Yes, he seems to be the kind of cumputer users who never read manuals
....
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

In <1h3c732.15ck6wabo27gpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>, on 09/23/2005
   at 10:17 AM, spam@husumtoften.invalid (Per R�nne) said:

>Every Dane or Norwegian uses the '�' in the from header if that is
>part of his name. Every German uses the '�' in the from header, if
>that is part of his name.

For once in his life AC is correct. You are allowed to use QP encoding
in the headedr, but you are *not* allowed to use any octet greter than
127.

>Usenet isn't restricted to obsolete US servers that don't even
>support ISO Latin 1.

It has nothing to do with what character set the server supports, nor
with geography. I agree that it is an obsolete restriction, but the
proper thing to do about it is to get involved with the people
updating RFC 1036 and make your concerns known.

BTW, why would you expect anybody to interpret an octet greater than
126 as Latin 1? That's only one of many standard code pages, and there
is no clue as to which is the correct one. If there is a new RFC
allowing octets greater than 127, the only reasonable rule would be to
require UTF-8.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT  <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action.  I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.  Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me.  Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 05:25:48 +0100, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <PM00040154AEE67F99@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>):

> So I guess even YOU use "bad practices", huh?  Hypocrite!

You obviously did not get the sarcastic intention of my post, then, as I used 
the word 'many' in all uppercase to mimc you. Oh well, forget it.

Paolo

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:36:11 +0100, Donald L McDaniel wrote
(in article <PM0004014F1F78AFB0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>):

[entirely quoted previous post snipped]

> A few other niggles:

Since you are such a usenet expert, how come you have not learnt in all those 
_many_ years that it is also bad practice to quote an entire previous post 
when adding some further comments? Surely you could have saved a lot of 
bandwidth by snipping away most of it, no? But considering you advocate 
HTML-rich usenet posts you must not be concerned much with bandwidth and the 
efficiency of the medium :-(

Paolo

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:19:11 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF585FCF007B7F18F0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> There appears to be NO understanding of "setting a Watch" or "bubbling 
> Watched Articles to the top of the display", so there is no way to even SET 
> the color or font of a Watched thread, since such a concept does not appear 
> to even exist in Hogwasher.  However, Hogwasher is NOT alone in this huge 
> lack, as EVERY OSX news client I have tried in the last week seem to follow 
> Hogwasher's example.

Yawn...

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:19:19 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF585FD7007B80DDF0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Subsequent clicking of that single choice brings up a "Help Viewer" app, 
> with an empty Search window (except for a search bar).
> 3) Subsequent entry of ANY search text in the Search bar results in a small 
> arrow going round and round endlessly, with NOTHING returned.

Your help system is hosed. Try deleting 
~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.helpui.plist

Paolo

-- 
"vina parant animum veneri, nisi plurima sumas"
   --Ovid

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 01:17:31 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3c732.15ck6wabo27gpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in the
>> From: header, but you probably know that.
> 
> Every Dane or Norwegian uses the '�' in the from header if that is part
> of his name. Every German uses the '�' in the from header, if that is
> part of his name.
> 
> Usenet isn't restricted to obsolete US servers that don't even support
> ISO Latin 1.
> 

Just to let you know, Per, not all Usenet users are like these so-called 
"American" elitists.  My current server and newsreader handle your name quite 
easily.

Not all inhabitants of the U.S. are afraid of anything which might smack of 
"foreignness", such as your surname.

By the way, Allen, go to Minnesota and Wisconsin and see how many NATURAL 
BORN U. S. citizens have names like Per's.  I guarantee  you, they won't be 
as patient with your Anglo-Saxon prejudices as Per has been.

Face it, people: others beside Anglo-Saxons inhabit the space we call the 
"Internet".  It's time for us to get over it.

You would think that after 250 years of millions of immigrants becoming an 
intrinsic part into the U.S. we would have made a few changes in our 
attitudes by now.   But I guess we haven't, yet.

I am almost ashamed to call myself an "American" right now.

Please forgive us, Per, and give us another hundred years of growth.  Maybe 
we will change our attitudes a little by then.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:44:23 -0700, Paolo Cordone wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF59D357000AF317F02845B0@News.Individual.NET>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:19:19 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF585FD7007B80DDF0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Subsequent clicking of that single choice brings up a "Help Viewer" app, 
>> with an empty Search window (except for a search bar).
>> 3) Subsequent entry of ANY search text in the Search bar results in a small 
>> arrow going round and round endlessly, with NOTHING returned.
> 
> Your help system is hosed. Try deleting 
>> /Library/Preferences/com.apple.helpui.plist
> 
> Paolo
> 
> 

Will that return the Help System?  I certainly don't want to start 
indiscriminately deleting files on a recommendation from someone who has 
previously "dissed" me.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz <spamtrap@library.lspace.org.invalid> wrote:

> In <1h3c732.15ck6wabo27gpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>, on 09/23/2005
>    at 10:17 AM, spam@husumtoften.invalid (Per R�nne) said:
> 
> >Every Dane or Norwegian uses the '�' in the from header if that is
> >part of his name. Every German uses the '�' in the from header, if
> >that is part of his name.
> 
> For once in his life AC is correct. You are allowed to use QP encoding
> in the headedr, but you are *not* allowed to use any octet greter than
> 127.

I don't even think MacSOUP allows for the use of anything other than
octets greater than FF if European characters are to be used in names.
And I only use my proper name in my name, not in my domain. Though in
Europe {or at least in Denmark} the servers now support domain names
like http://www.r�nne.dk.

BTW, the author of MacSOUP is an Austrian PhD in mathematics and
computer science. Stefan Haller.

http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~stefan/
http://home.snafu.de/stk/
-- 
Per Erik R�nne, MSc
Frederikssundsvej 308B, 3. tv.
DK-2700 Br�nsh�j, Denmark
Telephone + fax +45 38 89 00 16, mobile +45 28 23 09 92

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:17:45 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF59407900435259F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:55:20 -0400, Per R�nne wrote
> (in article <1h3c318.9n69xv10gm9ibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):
> 
>> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT
>> 
>> Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
>> subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
>> in the same thread:-).

Since I haven't really put MacSoup to a fair trial yet, I cannot agree or 
disagree.
>> 
> 
> As usual, Mr. McDaniel is wrong.  You can sort by any column
> (subject,date, thread, newsgroup, etc) merely by clicking on the column
> header and you can sort in ascending or descending order.
> 
> What a font of misinformation.
> 
> --
> Nelson
> 

Thank you, Nelson, for completely MISQUOTING me.  If you will actually read 
my post, you will plainly see that I mentioned the other columns in addition 
to "Subject".  But of course, accurate quoting of ANY article posted by me 
would not be in your interest (what ever it is).

Nevertheless, in spite of your obfuscation, I got the idea across, which was 
that the "Subject" threading in Pineapple does not actually thread by 
"Subject" (I kind of think that the product threads more by "Article-ID" (or 
something else alltogether), rather than "Subject"), or else the product's 
threading capabilities still are not ready for use, since it is just not 
fully threading by subject.

Many threads are completely dis-jointed in the display.  How can this be 
"threading by subject"?

However, Pineapple is not alone in this:  The same is true for Hogwasher.

I can excuse Pineapple, since it is still mostly an Alpha product.  But it is 
totally inexcusable in a product which is now in RTM, and the 4.2.2 iteration 
at that.

Perhaps you can show me how to bring all threads together, Nelson, instead of 
falsely quoting me.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Just to let you know, Per, not all Usenet users are like these so-called
> "American" elitists.  My current server and newsreader handle your name quite
> easily.

Good:-).

> Not all inhabitants of the U.S. are afraid of anything which might smack of
> "foreignness", such as your surname.

But traditionally, the immigrants' names have been Americanized. In
Denmark we've had a PM with a German surname: Schl�ter. He was PM for 11
years and nobody asked him to change it to "Schluter"; the '�' isn't
even part of the Danish alphabet.

> By the way, Allen, go to Minnesota and Wisconsin and see how many NATURAL
> BORN U. S. citizens have names like Per's.  I guarantee  you, they won't be
> as patient with your Anglo-Saxon prejudices as Per has been.
> 
> Face it, people: others beside Anglo-Saxons inhabit the space we call the
> "Internet".  It's time for us to get over it.
> 
> You would think that after 250 years of millions of immigrants becoming an
> intrinsic part into the U.S. we would have made a few changes in our 
> attitudes by now.   But I guess we haven't, yet.
> 
> I am almost ashamed to call myself an "American" right now.
> 
> Please forgive us, Per, and give us another hundred years of growth.  Maybe
> we will change our attitudes a little by then.

Everything forgiven. I think it is the first time I've experienced
anybody quarreling about the use of non-ascii chars in /names/.

BTW, it had been good if it had been the Chinese that had invented the
internet - no char problems ...
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:42:25 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3cb2x.1clhfcn1a95yh8N%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:55:20 -0400, Per R�nne wrote
>> (in article <1h3c318.9n69xv10gm9ibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):
> 
>>> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>>>> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT
> 
>>> Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
>>> subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
>>> in the same thread:-).
> 
>> As usual, Mr. McDaniel is wrong.  You can sort by any column 
>> (subject,date, thread, newsgroup, etc) merely by clicking on the column
>> header and you can sort in ascending or descending order.
> 
> Yes, but usually by thread if you're watching a newsgroup.
> 
>> What a font of misinformation.
> 
> Yes, he seems to be the kind of cumputer users who never read manuals
> ...
> 

Sir, in the first place, Nelson has MISQUOTED me.  I also mentioned the OTHER 
columns in my post, as anyone who read it honestly would see.

Now.  As to your hideous statement above, even throwing it into a sexual 
setting with your "misspelling" of "computer":

Currently, I am unable to access Hogwasher's help files, and have been unable 
since I installed the product.

In addition, I DID access the "Help" topics in Pineapple.  There was NOTHING 
in them about bringing disjointed threads together.  

I assure you, while I am a transplanted ex-Windows user, even we ("idiots" as 
we were to use Windows) accessed our help files from time to time.  In fact, 
almost ALL Windows products have extensive help files.  Don't you think that 
that would have been the FIRST thing I tried in an OSX app when I ran into a 
problem?  You dishonor me, sir.

If you don't, then maybe you need to learn a little about humanity.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 00:39:24 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3c3nf.3nv833dtdf1nN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:59:36 -0700, Reginald Dwight wrote
>> (in article <regdwight-B12668.08593622092005@news.verizon.net>):
>> 
>>> In article <0001HW.BF57D765006C8AD1F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>>> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Maybe they, constantly being in the minority, act elitist as a 
>>>> way to feel good about themselves. 
>>> 
>>> See...you're a dick. I'm not in a minority. The platform may have less
>>> programs for any given use than the PC but those programs are generally
>>> on a par to, or better than their PC counterpart. 
> 
> Actually, there are kinds of programs that don't come to MacOS. Like
> bilingual dictionaries {Danish-English-Danish, Danish-German-Danish} -
> and the number one English-English dictionary {Oxford English
> Dictionary, all 23 volumes on the harddisk - Windows only}. You have to
> use a Windoze computer for this reason, 
> 
>> Really?  Wow!, I must have been missing out on the Apple-developed office
>> desktop app (isn't it called "AppleWorks"?) all those years I was using
>> Microsoft Office for Windows instead.  I guess I was just a poor, deluded
>> Microsoft dupe.
> 
> Word and Excel was two of the first applications that came for the
> Macintosh - they have been around for around 20 years. And I used Word
> to write my MSc thesis report 15 years ago - 200 pages.
> 

Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a true 
office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy) for 
one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those European 
Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the War.)

In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and 
immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for American 
chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all 
those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, some 
Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add 
them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude 
toward Microsoft.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 00:39:24 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3c4f8.eh8wuh1rxwtibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm sure most longtime Mac users would be a little frustrated with
>> changing over to the Wintel paradigm, and even vent a little.
> 
> I think most "longtime" Mac users are quite familiar with the Wintel
> paradigm. Actually, right now I sit with three computers. My G4/867 that
> I'm writing this on. An IBM Thinkpad R50 for dictionaries and the like
> {it's a laptop too, of course}. And a Windows desktop with a tv tuner
> which at present records Rossini's opera "Semiramide" from tv for
> burning on DVDs:-).
> 

Ok, Per, allow me the liberty to revise my statement a little:
"I think most longtime "MAC FANATICS" would be a little frustrated with 
changing over suddenly to the Wintel paradigm, and even vent a little>"


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:15:53 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a true 
> office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy) for 
> one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those European 
> Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the War.)

Wow.  Just...wow.  That's particularly astonishing given the very
effective resistance the Norwegians put up during WWII.

> In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and 
> immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for American 
> chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all 
> those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, some 
> Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add 
> them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude 
> toward Microsoft.


So many problems in one post...it's just not worth it.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 00:39:24 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3c4ss.3158oc1rfvsxpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> The fact is, I was VERY specific because I am used to having almost ALL
>> features I stated with MOST Windows newsreaders. 
> 
> Try using MS Entourage {part of MS Office} as a newsreader. I think that
> is the kind of stuff you want.
> 
> Personally, I use it for mail and calendar. And MacSOUP for news.
> 

Thanks for the suggestion, Per.  Don't you think that I, as a confirmed 
Microsoft Office Outlook user, would try that option first?  Many Windows 
users have been looking for news-reader capabilities in Microsoft Office 
Outlook for YEARS (without using an Office Exchange server). Sadly however, 
Entourage, while it does have "news-reader" capabilities, only uses what 
appears to me to be a "MAC paradigm" (that is to say, "almost useless"), 
rather than the "Windows" paradigm, in its news-reader. 

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:38:40 -0700, Paolo Cordone wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF59D200000AA2C6F02845B0@News.Individual.NET>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:36:11 +0100, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <PM0004014F1F78AFB0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>):
> 
> [entirely quoted previous post snipped]
> 
>> A few other niggles:
> 
> Since you are such a usenet expert, how come you have not learnt in all those 

> _many_ years that it is also bad practice to quote an entire previous post 
> when adding some further comments? Surely you could have saved a lot of 
> bandwidth by snipping away most of it, no? But considering you advocate 
> HTML-rich usenet posts you must not be concerned much with bandwidth and the 
> efficiency of the medium :-(
> 
> Paolo
> 

You're right, Paolo:  I'm NOT concerned with bandwidth, since living far out 
in the Boondocks leaves me exactly TWO choices for an Internet connection:
1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your 
home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),
or
2) A 1.5kbps Satellite account.

Which would YOU choose, if those were your only two choices?

"Rich content" is the future of the Internet, not "plain text at 23 kbps", so 
get used to it.

Microsoft has been preparing itself for this change-over for many years.  
Since I am an ex-Windows user, I'm used to higher bandwidth content.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:12:14 -0700, Richard E Maine wrote
(in article <nospam-D0CA7F.12121422092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article <11j5v8lepcoqi7f@corp.supernews.com>,
>  "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> 
>> I'm not a Windows-convert but I still prefer a basic 3-paned
>> newsreader.  They're usually by far the most intuitive newsreaders out
>> there.  Try as I might to learn to like things like MT-Newswatcher I just
>> can't.
> 
> Me too. I'm using MT-Newswatcher at the moment, but there are plenty of 
> things I don't like about it.  The windows popping up all over the place 
> is one thing I dislike (though it isn't the worst one). I just happened 
> to find things that I disliked more about all the other choices, so for 
> the moment, MT-Newswatcher is what I'm using.
> 
> Yes, I've tried pretty much all the other readily available options, 
> including all the ones mentioned in this thread. No, I don't like any of 
> them. I don't feel up to listing all the reasons at the moment. Heck, I 
> don't even recall all the reasons, but I did try all the Mac options.
> 
> I've never tried Agent so I don't really know what it is like. I don't 
> have Windows available here at work at all, and I have zero interest in 
> doing newsreading on my Windows box at home (besides, I want to use the 
> same reader both places).
> 
> 

It really would be great to use a cross-platform newsreader, wouldn't it?.  
But I have yet to find one for my G5.  I never found one for my Windows box, 
either.  There just seems to be too much hatred between the various OS 
communities for one to surface.

If you find one, please let me know.  I assure you, if I find one, I will 
trumpet all over the Internet.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5999D300C21433F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> "Rich content" is the future of the Internet, not "plain text at 23 kbps", so 
> get used to it.

That is not needed in text based newsgroups. And in my opinion it is
undesirable. Only a few newbies and webtv users have been posting html
and most turn it off when asked nicely.

-- 
Charles

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Sir, in the first place, Nelson has MISQUOTED me.

OK. I read a long thread which was a couple of days old.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a true
> office suite.

Nothing new there.

>  They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy)

"Their avowed enemy" only for some "believers". Never for a man like
Steve Jobs. Microsoft was one of the first companies to take MacOS
seriously.

> for one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those
> European Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the
> War.)

As far as I know, Steve Jobs has been a personal friend of Bill Gates
for decades.

> In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and
> immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for American
> chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all
> those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, some
> Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add
> them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude
> toward Microsoft.

Before I was born, and, btw, Denmark was the country in Europe least
affected by the war - with the exception of the few countries that were
able to stay neural, like Sweden and Switzerland.

But of course, we saved our Jews - and my family took part in it to such
an extent that one of my uncles was invited to the United States by the
President to get a medail by - Bill Clinton. Fifty years after the
rescue.

B�rge R�nne, Borge Ronne in this link:

http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue%20i
n%20Scandinavia.pdf

He died 2001, 90 years old. One of the two founders of the "Elsinore
Sewing Club" that organized the flight routes over the Sound. Well,
every German soldier was sure of what kind of young lads these chaps
were - spending their spare time sewing:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> 1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your
> home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),

In Denmark, this was obsolete a decade ago. No, 2 Mbps flatrate for ~60
USD a month is closer to the present situation in my country ...
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:48:43 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF598E0B00BF512FF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:17:45 -0700, Nelson wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF59407900435259F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:55:20 -0400, Per R=F8nne wrote
>> (in article <1h3c318.9n69xv10gm9ibN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):
>> 
>>> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> In fact, the ONLY ways to sort threads is by SUBJECT
>>> 
>>> Well, MacSOUP does it by /thread/ instead. In this way, changing the
>>> subject doesn't change the place the article are placed as they remain
>>> in the same thread:-).
> 
> Since I haven't really put MacSoup to a fair trial yet, I cannot agree or 
> disagree.
>>> 
>> 
>> As usual, Mr. McDaniel is wrong.  You can sort by any column
>> (subject,date, thread, newsgroup, etc) merely by clicking on the column
>> header and you can sort in ascending or descending order.
>> 
>> What a font of misinformation.
>> 
>> --
>> Nelson
>> 
> 
> Thank you, Nelson, for completely MISQUOTING me.

Don't get your knickers in a knot. I didn't misquote you.  I responded 
to the quote in Per's post.  If anyone misquoted you, he did.  Upon 
reviewing the google archive, I can see that he left out part of your 
statement giving the false impression that you were not aware of the 
other options.  Never the less I stand by my statement that you are a 
font of misinformation.  You speak before you have any knowledge of 
what you are talking about and you are childish, shrill, militant and 
intransigent in your errors.

[Snip]

> Many threads are completely dis-jointed in the display.  How can this be 
> "threading by subject"?
> 
> However, Pineapple is not alone in this:  The same is true for Hogwasher.

Q.E.D.

> Perhaps you can show me how to bring all threads together, Nelson, instead of 

> falsely quoting me.

Perhaps you can get help from someone else.  I am through with you.

-- 
Nelson

Per R�nne <spam@husumtoften.invalid> wrote:

> Why haven't you given each thread a tree-interface like the one used in
> graph theory and MacSOUP.

Indeed. Proper threads is one of the things that has kept me in MacSOUP
throughout the years. Thank you Stefan!

Threading is also used in it's filters (kill/tag thread/subthread.
simply by hitting '-'..). MacSOUP also has a pretty good filtering
mechanism using regexps...

> For sure, MacSOUP has lots of drawbacks like the lack of support of
> multiple servers at the same time, and the lack of full support of
> unicode. But I simply can't do without its tree-interface.

multiple servers would be ok...

L


-- 
lars farm  //  http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:02:27 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3d03e.1fioj3s4dv1sfN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a 
>> true
>> office suite.
> 
> Nothing new there.
> 
>> They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy)
> 
> "Their avowed enemy" only for some "believers". Never for a man like
> Steve Jobs. Microsoft was one of the first companies to take MacOS
> seriously.
> 
>> for one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those
>> European Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the
>> War.)
> 
> As far as I know, Steve Jobs has been a personal friend of Bill Gates
> for decades.
> 
>> In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and
>> immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for American
>> chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all
>> those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, 
>> some
>> Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add
>> them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude
>> toward Microsoft.
> 
> Before I was born, and, btw, Denmark was the country in Europe least
> affected by the war - with the exception of the few countries that were
> able to stay neural, like Sweden and Switzerland.
> 
> But of course, we saved our Jews - and my family took part in it to such
> an extent that one of my uncles was invited to the United States by the
> President to get a medail by - Bill Clinton. Fifty years after the
> rescue.
> 
> B�rge R�nne, Borge Ronne in this link:
> 
> http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue%20i
> n%20Scandinavia.pdf

Since my current Usenet client (Hogwasher 4.22) refuses to allow me to launch 
that link from within my Internet Browser (Firefox 1.5b for OSX), I guess I 
will have to go through the tedious process of copying and pasting it into 
Firefox before I can read it.  Such would NOT be the case in ANY Windows 
Usenet client, for all of Windows' "lameness".
> 
> He died 2001, 90 years old. One of the two founders of the "Elsinore
> Sewing Club" that organized the flight routes over the Sound. Well,
> every German soldier was sure of what kind of young lads these chaps
> were - spending their spare time sewing:-).
> 

Sewing was one of the first skills I learned from my Mother as a child, since 
she really didn't have all that much time to repair the clothing of 7 
quickly-growing children while supporting us because our father was out 
getting drunk and screwing around with the neighbor's wife, so I'm not in the 
least bothered by men spending their spare time sewing.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to imply that ALL Europeans were ungrateful to 
America, Per. I realize that Denmark (and all other Scandinavian countries 
for that matter) were our stoutest friends both during and after the war, and 
have continued to be so since.  I certainly can't say the same about the 
French or the post-war generations of the British.

Scandinavians on the whole seem to be very good-natured and expansive toward 
"furriners".  This may because your population is pretty homogenous, whereas 
the populations of the U.S. and other parts of Europe are not.  But of 
course, I am no expert, nor do I claim to be.  I just know what I have 
observed over the last 60 years through my own research in the historical 
record or through the Media.

I was simply trying to compare Mac "fanatics" to many Europeans after the war 
and since.  You have to admit that they took our help, while secretly hating 
us.  Just as Apple takes Microsoft's help in the Microsoft Office product 
line while secretly hating Microsoft.  If Mr. Jobs had developed an equal 
product, he would have dropped Microsoft long ago.

And Mr. Jobs is probably Bill Gate's "friend", about like the Saudis are 
America's "friend."


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:32:27 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3d22k.hcntmz1ijx8jhN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> 1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your
>> home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),
> 
> In Denmark, this was obsolete a decade ago. No, 2 Mbps flatrate for ~60
> USD a month is closer to the present situation in my country ...
> 

The US is so far back in the dark ages that my brother and I must pay US 
$129/month for a 1.5kbps satellite connection (which is highly subject to 
sunspot activity -- sometimes our connection speed is about as equal as a 
40kbps dial-up) because the Cable simply doesn't extend to us (and probably 
never will, according the Cable contractors around these parts.)  You've 
never seen latency until you've used a satellite connection.

While I was living in Seattle, I had a 1.5kbps Cable connection for 
$39/month. This included the ISP, while you must pay both the phone company 
(the supplier of the ADSL signal) and an ISP if you want DSL service.  In 
addition, I could use my own Cable modem rather than the ISPs.  This 
connection was very stable, and the download speeds were comparable or better 
than DSL at the same connection speed.  Luck would have it, they increased 
the speed to 3 mbps for the same price AFTER I moved out of town.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:25:42 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> The US is so far back in the dark ages that my brother and I must pay US 
> $129/month for a 1.5kbps satellite connection

You should look into DirecWay - it's orders of magnitude faster.  We
have a local wireless "last mile" provider who gives us 1.5-2Mbps for
$24.99/month, so it's not a country thing, it's a "local ISP" thing.

> You've 
> never seen latency until you've used a satellite connection.

That much is true.  Unavoidably so.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:38:40 -0700, Paolo Cordone wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF59D200000AA2C6F02845B0@News.Individual.NET>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:36:11 +0100, Donald L McDaniel wrote
> (in article <PM0004014F1F78AFB0@donald-mcdaniels-power-mac-g5.unknown.dom>):
> 
> [entirely quoted previous post snipped]
> 
>> A few other niggles:
> 
> Since you are such a usenet expert, how come you have not learnt in all those 

> _many_ years that it is also bad practice to quote an entire previous post 
> when adding some further comments? Surely you could have saved a lot of 
> bandwidth by snipping away most of it, no? But considering you advocate 
> HTML-rich usenet posts you must not be concerned much with bandwidth and the 
> efficiency of the medium :-(
> 
> Paolo
> 

In the first place, I don't claim to be a "Usenet expert", only a long-time 
user under Windows clients.

Sometimes I remember to snip (but not always) since it is really a more 
efficient way of posting.  But I don't always remember to do it, since it's 
really not necessary for me (and I admit I am kind of lazy), because I have 
few bandwidth constraints, and more and more of those who post on the Usenet 
don't either.

You're probably right about my penchant for rich text content, since I am 
used to rich content in my newsreaders.   In addition, rich content is the 
direction of the Internet, not plain-text.  Maybe the Usenet needs to grow up 
a little, and enter the 21st century.   Maybe those Usenet servers need to 
upgrade their hardware (especially memory and disk space) to keep up with the 
rest of the industry

After all, most desktops in the world are on Windows machines rather than 
mainframe terminals.

But I am in no way a "traditionalist" where computers are concerned, nor do I 
even try to excuse myself, since in my way of thinking, all that plain-text 
and those swiftly-disappearing dial-up accounts are the offenders, not me.

I assure you, I am not the only one who has this attitude, either.

We are breaking into your club, dude, whether you like it or not.  So get 
used to it, or get off the Net.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:32:27 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3d22k.hcntmz1ijx8jhN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> 1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your
>> home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),
> 
> In Denmark, this was obsolete a decade ago. No, 2 Mbps flatrate for ~60
> USD a month is closer to the present situation in my country ...
> 

US$60/month is rather expensive here in the US, when more and more Cable ISPs 
are providing 3 kbps flat-rate for the same amount I was paying for 1.5 kbps 
a year ago.

However, both my brother and I would exchange our US$129/month satellite 
connection for US$60/month any day, even at the same speed, I assure you.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:06:26 -0500, Donald McDaniel wrote (in article 
<0001HW.BF59BC6200CA2DDDF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>): 

>> http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue%20i 
>> n%20Scandinavia.pdf 
> 
> Since my current Usenet client (Hogwasher 4.22) refuses to allow me to 
> launch that link from within my Internet Browser (Firefox 1.5b for OSX), I 
> guess I will have to go through the tedious process of copying and pasting 
> it into Firefox before I can read it.  Such would NOT be the case in ANY 
> Windows Usenet client, for all of Windows' "lameness". 

The problem is that the url was broken by being split across lines prefixed 
by the >> pair.  When entering a URL, especially a long one, it should be 
preceded and followed by < and > to avoid being broken. I'm using Hogwasher 
4.2 and I can command-click on the URL below and my browser, Safari, will 
bring up the correct page.

<http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue%20in%20S
candinavia.pdf> 


-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

In article <0001HW.BF59C4C400CC24B1F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> We are breaking into your club, dude, whether you like it or not.  So 
> get used to it, or get off the Net.

You must have voted for Bush.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <1h3c3b9.8bxy4v1vc8qdpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>,
 spam@husumtoften.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and 
> underline as _underline_.

Underline is used to represent italics on those systems where italics 
are not an option (e.g., typewriters).

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:58:08 -0700, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <0001HW.BF59C4C400CC24B1F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> We are breaking into your club, dude, whether you like it or not.  So 
>> get used to it, or get off the Net.
>
> You must have voted for Bush.

Wow.  What the hell does that have to do with Donald's message?  Do you
imply that everyone who voted for Bush agrees with him, or where are you
going with this one?

Actually nevermind.  The two of you deserve each other.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:50:13 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> US$60/month is rather expensive here in the US, when more and more Cable ISPs 
> are providing 3 kbps flat-rate for the same amount I was paying for 1.5 kbps 
> a year ago.

You keep saying 1.5 kbps - about 1/3 the speed of a modem.  Are you sure
this is what you mean?  I could see 1.5 mbps, but not kbps.

Dave Hinz

In article <11j5v8lepcoqi7f@corp.supernews.com>,
 "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> Amen, brother.  I'm not a Windows-convert but I still prefer a basic 
> 3-paned newsreader.  They're usually by far the most intuitive 
> newsreaders out there.  Try as I might to learn to like things like 
> MT-Newswatcher I just can't.

I do not like three-paned newsreaders or email software.  One of the 
nicer things about the lamented Claris Emailer 2.0 is that the user had 
the option of a three-paned system or separate windows.  I always used 
separate windows.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF57CE61006A6DF9F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> If at all possible, I prefer writing as I speak.  In addition, using 
> quote marks to provide emphasis is certainly not a normal English 
> convention, while using bold, all caps, underlined, or Italics are 
> the preferred ways in standard English.  I prefer using standard 
> English conventions when I write, not this "neo-speak" which is 
> currently flooding the Internet.

And using underlines to indicate italics, asterisks to indicate bold, 
and emoticons is not exactly new; the practice is more than two decades 
old, going back to dial-up bulletin boards and services like Compuserve, 
The Source, and etc.

You did not have italics and bold face type with typewriters.

> Of course, the conventions I mentioned are usually possible with a 
> Window's Usenet client, since most of them allow granular formatting 
> of words or phrases of almost any type (allowing HTML, RTF, or Plain 
> Text composition).  However, such compositions are almost universally 
> detested by Unix geeks, and I have yet to find an OSX client which 
> allows such granularity in formatting compositions, so I use what I 
> DO have access to and prefer.

It's not just Unix geeks; it's just about everyone who has used this 
medium for a long time, and who understand the difference between 
messaging and web browsing.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:29:59 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5989A700BE49D4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Will that return the Help System?

Don't worry, deleting that file won't harm anything. The system rebuilds it 
if it's not there. I had a similar problem with the Help system not working 
and displaying a blank window. it turned out the preference file in question 
had become corrupted, and after deleting it things went back to normal. Of 
course, it might not solve the problem you are having, but it's worth a try. 
In any case, you can always drag the file to the desktop rather than deleting 
it (if you suspect I am trying to damage your system).

Paolo

-- 
"Being busy is not the same as being productive.
A life devoted to messages and information reduces
the mental grazing room necessary for creativity."
  --Rosalind Williams

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:31:24 -0700, Paolo Cordone wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5A40CC00006356F02845B0@News.Individual.NET>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:29:59 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF5989A700BE49D4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Will that return the Help System?
> 
> Don't worry, deleting that file won't harm anything. The system rebuilds it 
> if it's not there. I had a similar problem with the Help system not working 
> and displaying a blank window. it turned out the preference file in question 
> had become corrupted, and after deleting it things went back to normal. Of 
> course, it might not solve the problem you are having, but it's worth a try. 
> In any case, you can always drag the file to the desktop rather than deleting 

> it (if you suspect I am trying to damage your system).
> 
> Paolo
> 
> 

Thank you, Paolo.  i am much more assured of your good intentions now.  
Please forgive me for my paranoia.  I will see how it works later this 
evening


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF59946900C0CF61F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently 
> developed a true office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft 
> (their avowed enemy) for one.

How do you define "true office suite"?  Clarisworks (now called 
Appleworks) 1.0 knocked Microsoft Works 2.0 out of the ring.

Appleworks is long in the tooth and definitely showing its age; much of 
its functionality (with the notable exception of spreadsheet) is now in 
Pages (which is part of iWorks--the remaining part being Keynote, which 
is like Powerpoint on steroids).

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <1h3d03e.1fioj3s4dv1sfN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> But of course, we saved our Jews - and my family took part in it to 
> such an extent that one of my uncles was invited to the United States 
> by the President to get a medail by - Bill Clinton. Fifty years after 
> the rescue.

I thank him and the rest of your countrymen.  More than 1/3 of my 
great-great grandparents' descendants were killed in the camps.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On news.software.readers, in
<1h3bwaj.ttdest1xveoz6N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, "Kathy Morgan"
wrote:

> Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Either Google Groups failed to process your alias because of
>> the non-us-ascii characters or you have no posting history.
>
> Invalid assumption; those are not the only two possibilities.

What are the others? 

I copied his given _name_ (not the email address) into the Author box at

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search

And it returned ZERO hits.

No error messages, and the name, when displayed by Google
had been properly rendered in ISO-8859-?

>
>> Your search - author:<non-us-ascii characters deleted> - did
>> not match any documents.
>
> You need to learn how to use Google Groups if you're going to
> use it as an authority.

I see no evidence that you know what you are talking about.


>  Per <non-us-ascii characters deleted>
> has probably been posting here longer than you've been on the
> Internet.
>

Which doesn't mean that he doesn't take steps to hide his
posting history.

DUH

Why did you choose to respond to this post with nothing but
hot air and stupidity , and ignore my much more
substantive response to your original post:

 <1h39jm1.1yb7pxg1krznh6N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>

My response:

 <slrndj4rkb.3o7.i3x9mdw@b29x3m.invalid>


And why did you choose to remove the other groups besides
news.software.readers from the Newsgroups header?

And fail to note the fact in the article.

This isn't your homegroup or the group that was the source
of the original post.

Looks like you are hiding your response (and lack of a response)
from the other groups.

Don't blame you.

And why did you snip my post and fail to note the fact in
your response?

You are behaving like a troll.

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

In article <0001HW.BF59BC6200CA2DDDF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> > http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue
> > %20i n%20Scandinavia.pdf
> 
> Since my current Usenet client (Hogwasher 4.22) refuses to allow me 
> to launch that link from within my Internet Browser (Firefox 1.5b for 
> OSX), I guess I will have to go through the tedious process of 
> copying and pasting it into Firefox before I can read it.  Such would 
> NOT be the case in ANY Windows Usenet client, for all of Windows' 
> "lameness".

Why does it refuse to launch the link?  I can do it with Newswatcher.  
(Because it wasn't enclosed in angle brackets, though, I had to select 
the entire URL and then command-click it.  If it had the brackets, I 
could have command-clicked it without selecting it first.)

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <3pjcesFalhv8U1@individual.net>,
 Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

> >> We are breaking into your club, dude, whether you like it or not.  
> >> So get used to it, or get off the Net.
> >
> > You must have voted for Bush.
> 
> Wow.  What the hell does that have to do with Donald's message?  Do 
> you imply that everyone who voted for Bush agrees with him, or where 
> are you going with this one?

His attitude towards our "club" is like Bush's attitude towards Iraq.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <michelle-4809C2.15052323092005@news.west.cox.net>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> I do not like three-paned newsreaders or email software.  One of the 
> nicer things about the lamented Claris Emailer 2.0 is that the user had 
> the option of a three-paned system or separate windows.  I always used 
> separate windows.

What do you think of Mailsmith?

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <230920051452085128%fort514@mac.com>,
 Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote:

> That is not needed in text based newsgroups. And in my opinion it is
> undesirable. Only a few newbies and webtv users have been posting html
> and most turn it off when asked nicely.

And the rest find they don't get many replies, since the newsmasters 
filter out messages with HTML in them in normal newsgroups.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5988B600BE114FF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Not all inhabitants of the U.S. are afraid of anything which might smack of 
> "foreignness", such as your surname.

Truth.  I don't have an issue with it, and if there's a conflict with a 
standard, you can be sure the standard will be changing.  Never occurred 
to me to think of his name as a problem, actually.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <howard-8DEBEA.21460623092005@news.supernews.com>,
 Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> > I do not like three-paned newsreaders or email software.  One of 
> > the nicer things about the lamented Claris Emailer 2.0 is that the 
> > user had the option of a three-paned system or separate windows.  I 
> > always used separate windows.
> 
> What do you think of Mailsmith?

I tried it a few years ago, and it was just different enough from 
Emailer that it was jarring.  I'm using mail.app, but I have a fairly 
large monitor (17" iMac) (well, large compared to the 15" CRT iMac it 
replaced), so I've adjusted to the 3-pane interface.  If they ever 
implemented delete-and-next for the separate message window, I'd go back 
to using that in a flash.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

"Leonard Blaisdell" <leo@greatbasin.com> wrote in message 
news:leo-5557C7.15590321092005@news.supernews.com...
>
> By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means.
> Traditional newsclients go back a long way, far earlier than panes. And
> if you're talking about traditional Microsoft clients, who cares?

I'm guessing all the many Windows users Apple is hoping will make the switch 
and particularly those who already have or are using both OS.

-- 
Tara

"Allen Brunson" <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote in message 
news:PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net...
>I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from finished, 
>but
> it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot 
> better
> in the next few.
>
> Up until now, I've had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a 
> small
> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It's 
> pretty
> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it. 
> I am
> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize 
> the
> work remaining.  In particular, I'm going to be starting work on filtering
> rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use filters 
> for
> in other newsreaders.

Where/how are you hoping to garner this feedback?

I like the app so far, considering that its a base model version.

I'm not one of those filter-crazy people (and there seem to be alot so maybe 
I'm the crazy one) who want to filter on any one of 1000 possibilities.

I want a solid, dependable, *account-wide*, killfile that blocks on either 
name or email address (both listed as options and not either/or).  By 
account-wide I mean no putting someone in a killfile only to have them still 
viewable in 3 other newsgroups I'm subscribed to.  If I KF someone I expect 
them to be KF'd across the board.

I know filtering on newsgroups, number of newsgroups in a distribution, etc. 
are also very popular.

I like toolbars with the basics for downloading new headers, Reply To All, 
Reply, New Message, Print and the like.  The most common tasks a person 
performs when participating in usenet.

Keyboard shortcuts for the basics is also a necessity for me and I'd guess 
for alot of people.  As a laptop user I don't want to constantly ctrl+click 
or move my pointer to a menu to achieve something like Catch-Up or Download 
New Headers (you call it transfer which seems a bit odd to me).

I may be blind but I don't see any functionality for marking messages or 
threads for watch or ignore.  I'm pulling my terms from OE since that's what 
I use most (out of choice believe it or not).  I often mark threads for 
watching if I'm trying to keep up with something important.  I like watched 
threads to become bold and of a different color so they stand out but I want 
them to stay in their proper place in the window and not jump to the 
beginning or end.  I like making ignored threads either invisible or just 
barely visible by using a light font color.

Hope that helps.

-- 
Tara 

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:22:09 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-38B436.15220923092005@news.west.cox.net>):

> In article <0001HW.BF57CE61006A6DF9F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> If at all possible, I prefer writing as I speak.  In addition, using 
>> quote marks to provide emphasis is certainly not a normal English 
>> convention, while using bold, all caps, underlined, or Italics are 
>> the preferred ways in standard English.  I prefer using standard 
>> English conventions when I write, not this "neo-speak" which is 
>> currently flooding the Internet.
> 
> And using underlines to indicate italics, asterisks to indicate bold, 
> and emoticons is not exactly new; the practice is more than two decades 
> old, going back to dial-up bulletin boards and services like Compuserve, 
> The Source, and etc.
> 
> You did not have italics and bold face type with typewriters.
> 
>> Of course, the conventions I mentioned are usually possible with a 
>> Window's Usenet client, since most of them allow granular formatting 
>> of words or phrases of almost any type (allowing HTML, RTF, or Plain 
>> Text composition).  However, such compositions are almost universally 
>> detested by Unix geeks, and I have yet to find an OSX client which 
>> allows such granularity in formatting compositions, so I use what I 
>> DO have access to and prefer.
> 
> It's not just Unix geeks; it's just about everyone who has used this 
> medium for a long time, and who understand the difference between 
> messaging and web browsing.
> 
> 

I really don't believe that, Michelle.  I am more inclined to believe that 
you do it "because that's the way "all my friends do it.", and you have 
convinced yourself that this makes you feel "superior" or somehow "special" 
in the eyes of everyone else outside your "little group".  We could care 
less, sis.

I only use plain text because it makes for peace with idiots.  I would always 
rather live at peace with someone than stir up controversy.

Such an attitude as yours is HARD for me to not say something about, because 
it really "steams me up" no end.

Such an attitude is GUARANTEED to leave you in the dust with the dinosaurs, 
eventually.  That's your choice.  As always, you are entitled to your 
opinion.  And so am I.

I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when huge 
amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich Text at very low 
cost, along with the necessary software to take advantage of that bandwidth.  
I guarantee you, I'm not going to 

Let's face it, the days of only techies and Unix "freaks" being able to take 
advantage of the Usenet are over.  Thank God!


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:
> On news.software.readers, in
> <1h3bwaj.ttdest1xveoz6N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, "Kathy Morgan"
> wrote:

> > Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> >> Either Google Groups failed to process your alias because of
> >> the non-us-ascii characters or you have no posting history.

> > Invalid assumption; those are not the only two possibilities.

> What are the others? 

> I copied his given _name_ (not the email address) into the Author box at

> http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search

> And it returned ZERO hits.

I find 58,200 hits. In 0.22 seconds:

http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=&num=10&scoring=r&hl=da&as_epq=Per+
R�nne&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_drrb=q&a
s_qdr=&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=24&as_maxm=9&as_maxy=200
5

> > Per <non-us-ascii characters deleted>

R�nne - my surname, adopted by my family back in the 1600s:-).

> > has probably been posting here longer than you've been on the
> > Internet.

> Which doesn't mean that he doesn't take steps to hide his
> posting history.

I have taken no such steps.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne, MSc
Frederikssundsvej 308B, 3. tv.
DK-2700 Br�nsh�j, Denmark
Telephone + fax +45 38 89 00 16, mobile +45 28 23 09 92

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:43:11 -0500, Lars Farm wrote
(in article <1h3cy56.1214imc1n33pr0N%see.bottom.of.page.for.lars@farm.se>):

>> For sure, MacSOUP has lots of drawbacks like the lack of support of
>> multiple servers at the same time, and the lack of full support of
>> unicode. But I simply can't do without its tree-interface.

If I'm understanding the above correctly you are referring to the tree 
diagram, in which case you will find literally the same in Hogwasher.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

Nelson <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote:

> I responded to the quote in Per's post.  If anyone misquoted you, he did.
> Upon reviewing the google archive, I can see that he left out part of your
> statement giving the false impression that you were not aware of the other
> options.

The standard is that you only quote what you answer, and in MacSOUP when
you want to read the former article when reading an article, you'll find
it by pressing left arrow.

In general, MacSOUP shows two thing when reading an article. In the
bottom the article. In the top the thread {tree} with nodes and edges,
just like in graph theory. In this way the thread's structure is easily
comprehended, and furthermore it is easy to move between the nodes of
the tree/thread. Either use the right and left arrows to get the former
node and the first possible answer to the node/article you are at now.
Or use the numeric keypad:

4 left.
6 right.
2 down.
8 up.
1 down and left.
3 down and right.
7 up and left.
9 up and right.

This ease of navigation is what in my eyes makes MacSOUP the No One
newsreader that I know of.

The major drawback is its limited support of unicode: only characters
from the set intersection of the MacRoman and ISO Latin-1 character sets
are really supported.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <1h3c3b9.8bxy4v1vc8qdpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>,
>  spam@husumtoften.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:
> 
> > It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and 
> > underline as _underline_.
> 
> Underline is used to represent italics on those systems where italics
> are not an option (e.g., typewriters).

Yes, but I don't think I've used a typewriter since the late 1980s - and
it was for an exam at my minor subject, English, where the alternative
had been to handwrite - something that gives me cramps in the hand.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> In article <230920051452085128%fort514@mac.com>,
>  Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote:
> 
> > That is not needed in text based newsgroups. And in my opinion it is
> > undesirable. Only a few newbies and webtv users have been posting html
> > and most turn it off when asked nicely.
> 
> And the rest find they don't get many replies, since the newsmasters 
> filter out messages with HTML in them in normal newsgroups.

I can't even read them properly; all the html tags show up in plain text
instead of being interpretated. So I'll just autoblacklist such replies
{then I won't have to bother with possible replies either}.

How to blacklist a subtree? Just press '-'.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

>  I'm using Hogwasher 4.2 and I can command-click on the URL below and my
> browser, Safari, will bring up the correct page.

As does MacSOUP in my original message. Just mark the url first. I just
forgot the <> ;-(.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> While I was living in Seattle, I had a 1.5kbps Cable connection for 
> $39/month. This included the ISP, while you must pay both the phone company
> (the supplier of the ADSL signal) and an ISP if you want DSL service.  In
> addition, I could use my own Cable modem rather than the ISPs.  This 
> connection was very stable, and the download speeds were comparable or better
> than DSL at the same connection speed.  Luck would have it, they increased
> the speed to 3 mbps for the same price AFTER I moved out of town.

In Denmark they work on getting threadless internet access points all
over the country, just like we have already got mobile phone points.

Well, in Denmark proper only. Not on the Greenland ice cap:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:32:27 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
> (in article <1h3d22k.hcntmz1ijx8jhN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):
> 
> > Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> 1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your
> >> home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),
> > 
> > In Denmark, this was obsolete a decade ago. No, 2 Mbps flatrate for ~60
> > USD a month is closer to the present situation in my country ...
> > 
> 
> US$60/month is rather expensive here in the US, when more and more Cable ISPs
> are providing 3 kbps flat-rate for the same amount I was paying for 1.5 kbps
> a year ago.

2 Mbps is 683 times faster than 3 kbps. 1024*2/3.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Sometimes I remember to snip (but not always) since it is really a more
> efficient way of posting.  But I don't always remember to do it, since it's
> really not necessary for me (and I admit I am kind of lazy), because I have
> few bandwidth constraints, and more and more of those who post on the Usenet
> don't either.

It isn't really a matter of bandwidth any more. But a matter of being
kind to the readers - why should the readers waste their time on text
that isn't really commented on?
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, "Per R�nne" wrote:
<body not downloaded>

Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
your headers. It screws up all sorts of software.

I can't search your posting history at Google Groups. I can't
score your posts on the From header with the latest build of
slrn-slrnpull, one of the best newsreaders in the existence.

That means I don't read your posts, or any responses to them.

Apparently, you think that I have some obligation to do so.

Wrong. 

Having someone read your posts is a privelege, not a right.

Now why don't you just grow the fuck up and killfile me.

At least you _can_ killfile me, because I don't fuck around
with my headers like a dipshit windoze-weenie troll.

Do you honestly think that having some weird character in
your name impresses people?

Don't you understand that idiots can't operate computers?

(I have slrn-slrnpull configured to only bring down the headers
unless I specifically tell it to do otherwise.)

AC


-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

Per Rønne wrote:
> Every Dane or Norwegian uses the 'ø' in the from header if that is part
> of his name. Every German uses the 'ü' in the from header, if that is
> part of his name.

yes, but there's a way to include such characters in headers that doesn't
require bytes with values greater than 126.  have a look at RFC2047:

  http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2047.html

it allows you to specify the charset you're using, among other things.  many
newsreaders already implement this.  sadly, i notice a lot of old-skule
terminal-based newsreaders seem to be ignoring it, despite the rfc being nine
years old at this point.

Neill Massello wrote:
> There appears to be a Mac RSS aggregator application named Pineapple
> <http://www.postal-code.com/pineapple.php>. It doesn't seem to be in
> active development, but you might want to consider a name change now,
> while your app is young, to avoid any possible confusion.

yes, i've heard of it.  i'd be willing to bet that i've been using the name
longer.  my program first appeared on beos in the year 2000.

> I haven't tried Pineapple News yet, but it looks promising. Best wishes,
> and thanks for becoming a Mac developer.

thanks!  i've been working on it full-time for many months now, and i'll
continue to do so until it's finished.

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:43:11 -0500, Lars Farm wrote
> (in article <1h3cy56.1214imc1n33pr0N%see.bottom.of.page.for.lars@farm.se>):
> 
> >> For sure, MacSOUP has lots of drawbacks like the lack of support of
> >> multiple servers at the same time, and the lack of full support of
> >> unicode. But I simply can't do without its tree-interface.
> 
> If I'm understanding the above correctly you are referring to the tree
> diagram, in which case you will find literally the same in Hogwasher.

Where? How?

BTW, it won't even let me use my proper surname;-(.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

In article <1h3ds4e.28jbyy1fisefmN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> I can't even read them properly; all the html tags show up in plain 
> text instead of being interpretated. So I'll just autoblacklist such 
> replies {then I won't have to bother with possible replies either}.

MT Newswatcher strips out the HTML, so all I ever see is plain text.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <1h3drhi.1v695v11atnskyN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> > > It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and 
> > > underline as _underline_.
> > 
> > Underline is used to represent italics on those systems where 
> > italics are not an option (e.g., typewriters).
> 
> Yes, but I don't think I've used a typewriter since the late 1980s - 
> and it was for an exam at my minor subject, English, where the 
> alternative had been to handwrite - something that gives me cramps in 
> the hand.

True, but that's where the paradigm was developed.  In fact, typesetters 
were so used to it that in the early days of WYSIWYG word processing, 
publishers asked authors not to submit manuscripts with italics because 
it confused the typesetters, who were used to seeing underlines to 
represent italics.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <slrndj9opr.14l.i3x9mdw@b29x3m.invalid>,
 Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> Do you honestly think that having some weird character in your name 
> impresses people?

That "weird character" is a letter of his alphabet, and is part of his 
name.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF5A187300DFC1F9F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> > It's not just Unix geeks; it's just about everyone who has used this 
> > medium for a long time, and who understand the difference between 
> > messaging and web browsing.
> 
> I really don't believe that, Michelle. 

It doesn't matter what you believe, but you will continue to believe 
whatever you choose to believe.

> I am more inclined to believe that you do it "because that's the way 
> "all my friends do it.", and you have convinced yourself that this 
> makes you feel "superior" or somehow "special" in the eyes of 
> everyone else outside your "little group". 

You are the one who is coming across as feeling superior and 
special--and arrogant, supercilious, and just full of himself.  And your 
mind is made up; don't bother you with facts or logic.

> We could care less, sis.

You got a mouse in your pocket, buster?  I'm glad that you could care 
less; at least that shows that you care.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
> "Per R�nne" wrote:
> <body not downloaded>
> 
> Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
> your headers. It screws up all sorts of software.

Only obsolete US-only software.

> I can't search your posting history at Google Groups.

I had no problems finding 58,200 postings on my name: "Per R�nne".

> I can't score your posts on the From header with the latest build of
> slrn-slrnpull, one of the best newsreaders in the existence.

Well, then, it isn't one of the best newsreaders if it can't handle
names from Western Europe. Or you don't use it correctly. Or you use a
usenet server that is obsolete.

Btw, by the new standard even domains like http://www.r�nne.dk is
supported. But not by all US internet providers ...

> That means I don't read your posts, or any responses to them.

I don't care.

> Apparently, you think that I have some obligation to do so.

Certainly not.

> Wrong. 
> 
> Having someone read your posts is a privelege, not a right.

You seem to be one of the few people who can't read my post.

> Now why don't you just grow the fuck up and killfile me.
> 
> At least you _can_ killfile me, because I don't fuck around
> with my headers like a dipshit windoze-weenie troll.
> 
> Do you honestly think that having some weird character in
> your name impresses people?

It isn't a weird character. It is a standard letter in Danish and
Norwegian, just like �, � and � are standars letters in German, and �,
�, �, � and � are standard letters in French. Amricans should simply get
used to the fact that the internet isn't a US-thing only.

> Don't you understand that idiots can't operate computers?

I've got a MSc degree in computer science from the University of
Copenhagen.

> (I have slrn-slrnpull configured to only bring down the headers
> unless I specifically tell it to do otherwise.)

I bring down everything unless the headers contain information that
"fit" with my killfile settings. It's faster. But also, I have a 2Mbps
connection.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

In article <0001HW.BF5A187300DFC1F9F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

(I hit Post too soon.)

> I only use plain text because it makes for peace with idiots.  I 
> would always rather live at peace with someone than stir up 
> controversy.

I'm glad that you strive for peace with yourself.

> Such an attitude as yours is HARD for me to not say something about, 
> because it really "steams me up" no end.

Yeah, being shown up by a girl really gets under the skin of you macho 
know-it-alls.

> Such an attitude is GUARANTEED to leave you in the dust with the 
> dinosaurs, eventually.

ROTFLMAO.  Those of us who know how to use the language rarely have to 
use those formatting crutches that you find to be so indispensable.

> I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when 
> huge amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich 
> Text at very low cost, along with the necessary software to take 
> advantage of that bandwidth.  I guarantee you, I'm not going to 

I see no need for jumping on the latest kewl thing just because it is 
new.  If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it--and it ain't broke.

> Let's face it, the days of only techies and Unix "freaks" being able 
> to take advantage of the Usenet are over.  Thank God!

LOL.  I'm sure that you know more about unix than I do.  But unlike you, 
I don't feel threatened by my lack of unix knowledge.  You must feel 
threatened by it, considering how much you harp on it.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

claudel wrote:
> Thanks for doing this. I'm still using trn from a shell account because I
> haven't found anything I really like using on my Powerbook. Hopefully
> your reader will be it...

would you like to beta test?  filtering is going to be a big job.  i'll
probably have to roll it out in parts.  i've noticed that it takes me at least
two versions to really nail a feature, and this one might be the biggest yet.

my program has been public for only a few days and already i'm noticing a
great deal of misinformation swirling around out there.  i had thought i was
going to stay public, but current reaction makes me think i'd prefer to stick
with the very-small-group-of-trusted-beta-testers model i've been using up to
now.  i'll probably release the unstable "in-betweener" versions to beta
testers only, then let the world have a look for the stable ones.

i'm posting rather than e-mailing because if claude is not interested, perhaps
a few of you other readers are.  i have three beta testers i'm very happy
with, but i could use three or four more.

Frédérique & Hervé Sainct wrote:
> But this very feature in MS, I want to keep it. You may find me a bit
> blunt, but I don't want to lock my data in PN proprietary format (which
> I understand is necessary for indexing, etc.). To me this applies to
> just *any* new software I consider. I must be able to reexport my data
> away, if need be. And as concerns newsgroups the formats exist, are well
> documented, open and all: that's one of the easiest domains :-)

my program doesn't really *have* a "format."  i don't use SQL or any kind of
traditional database.  it saves each message in its own text file, almost
exactly as it was received from the news server.  it adds a few custom headers
to the message, so it can store state data like read/unread, attachment
status, and so on.

the only proprietary part is the cache databases, which the program uses for
speedy access to a folder-full of messages.  reading thousands of messages at
once takes way too long, so each folder has a cache database, which stores a
few important pieces of info about each message, so i don't have to open every
message file for every operation.  the stuff in the cache databases is
entirely redundant and can be recreated at will.  in fact, i often make the
existing cache databases obsolete by some programming change, which is no
problem.  newer versions of the program recognize it when they see a cache
database written by an older version, and recreate it from scratch.

so you can import old messages into pnews, if you can get your existing
messages into individual text files.  if macsoup exports to mbox, i'd be
willing to bet you could find an "mbox exploder" command-line utility that
would re-write the contents to separate files.  then you've got a folder-full
of messages, which you move somewhere inside my program's existing subdir
heirarchy, and use my "reparse" command to force the program to add its state
headers to the messages.

if you want to export messages later, a command-line mbox creation utility
would work.  point it at one of my program's existing saved message folders
and have it make an mbox out of it.

this is not very automated, i admit.  you'd almost certainly have to write a
few shell scripts to get it to work very well.  but given that my program
saves all its data in plain old text files ... well, there's zillions of tools
that work with text files.

Allen Brunson <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:

> Per R�nne wrote:
> > Every Dane or Norwegian uses the '�' in the from header if that is part
> > of his name. Every German uses the '�' in the from header, if that is
> > part of his name.
> 
> yes, but there's a way to include such characters in headers that doesn't
> require bytes with values greater than 126.  have a look at RFC2047:
> 
>   http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2047.html
> 
> it allows you to specify the charset you're using, among other things.  many
> newsreaders already implement this.

I think MacSOUP specifies this automatically. After all, the program was
written by an Austrian college boy who studied mathematics and computer
science, and who is now a university teacher.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne, MSc
Frederikssundsvej 308B, 3. tv.
DK-2700 Br�nsh�j, Denmark
Telephone + fax +45 38 89 00 16, mobile +45 28 23 09 92

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <1h3ds4e.28jbyy1fisefmN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
>  spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:
> 
> > I can't even read them properly; all the html tags show up in plain
> > text instead of being interpretated. So I'll just autoblacklist such
> > replies {then I won't have to bother with possible replies either}.
> 
> MT Newswatcher strips out the HTML, so all I ever see is plain text.

OK, but MacSOUP doesn't. Which makes these rare messages - illegible.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

In article <PM0004017E34126587@remy.nashville.comcast.net>,
Allen Brunson  <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:
>claudel wrote:
>> Thanks for doing this. I'm still using trn from a shell account because I
>> haven't found anything I really like using on my Powerbook. Hopefully
>> your reader will be it...
>
>would you like to beta test?  filtering is going to be a big job.  i'll
>probably have to roll it out in parts.  i've noticed that it takes me at least
>two versions to really nail a feature, and this one might be the biggest yet.
>
>my program has been public for only a few days and already i'm noticing a
>great deal of misinformation swirling around out there.  i had thought i was
>going to stay public, but current reaction makes me think i'd prefer to stick
>with the very-small-group-of-trusted-beta-testers model i've been using up to
>now.  i'll probably release the unstable "in-betweener" versions to beta
>testers only, then let the world have a look for the stable ones.
>
>i'm posting rather than e-mailing because if claude is not interested, perhaps
>a few of you other readers are.  i have three beta testers i'm very happy
>with, but i could use three or four more.

Sure. I'll give it a go. I'm a bit of a Luddite as far as news
readers go, but I've got to leap into the 21st century sometime.
take out the "bolt" from the reply address and send me an email
with the details. One other odd little quirk about my setup is that
I'd prefer to be able to access my newserver via a SSH tunnel, but
that shouldn't be too difficult as long as I can configure the reader
to use localhost as a server. I can create a tunnel using the NNTP
port easily. Sonic has internal access to three different news services
so I can test the multiple server part as well. Should be interesting
to try multiple tunnels...

Claude

On news.software.readers, in <PM0004017DEC72458A@remy.nashville.comcast.net>, "Allen Brunson" wrote:
<body not downloaded>

Allen Brunson
Results 1 - 4 of 4 posts in the last year
      2 alt.internet.talk.haven
      1 comp.sys.mac.comm
      1 news.software.nntp

So you only post once every three months yet choose to
waste some of your obviously very limited time on the
Usenet replying to me on this stupid thread?

Right. Your posts, and any responses to them go unread,
and you have been killscored.

Not the first of your aliases I've killfiled, either, I'll
bet.

If you want me to read your Usenet farts, you'll have to
do better than kindergarden sockpuppets, Junior.

All those Mac headers in your post are crap.

You are a windoze-weenie punk.

Anyone who has a newsreader that can pipe posts to an external
script and can use bash, should see the slrn directory on my
website.

I can check the posting history of people on the Usenet
with a single keystroke.


AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:
> Allen Brunson
> Results 1 - 4 of 4 posts in the last year
>       2 alt.internet.talk.haven
>       1 comp.sys.mac.comm
>       1 news.software.nntp

Your script is broken. Google Groups shows 17 articles by "Allen
Brunson" in the last year and almost 700 since he started posting in the
1990s. Then again, it doesn't seem to matter, because I've seen you mock
people for having few articles, lots of articles, and everything in
between.

> So you only post once every three months yet choose to waste some of
> your obviously very limited time on the Usenet replying to me on this
> stupid thread?

Where? The article you're following up was in reply to somebody else.
Perhaps your newsreader dropped the articles before yours and his, but
with your skill at reading headers, you'd think you would know how to
read References correctly.

> Right. Your posts, and any responses to them go unread, and you have
> been killscored.

Why don't you just use a Magic 8-ball instead? It'd be more accurate.
-- 
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]

Allen Brunson <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:
>> yes, but there's a way to include such characters in headers that
>> doesn't require bytes with values greater than 126.  have a look at
>> RFC2047:
>> 
>>   http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2047.html
>> 
>> it allows you to specify the charset you're using, among other
>> things.  many newsreaders already implement this.

Per R�nne <spam@RQNNE.invalid> wrote:
> I think MacSOUP specifies this automatically. After all, the program
> was written by an Austrian college boy who studied mathematics and
> computer science, and who is now a university teacher.

Looks like it. I just checked the article that Alan originally attacked;
your name was properly encoded as "(=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_R=F8nne?=)." In
fact, I don't see any 8-bit characters in your headers at all. Looks
like Alan was talking out of his ass again.
-- 
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:
> On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
> "Per R�nne" wrote: <body not downloaded>
>
> Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
> your headers.

He didn't. Check the original article, which uses correct,
RFC-recommended header encoding, instead of making incorrect assumptions
based on what you see in slrn.

> I can't search your posting history at Google Groups.

Maybe you can't, but that's not because Google can't do it.

> I can't score your posts on the From header with the latest build of
> slrn-slrnpull, one of the best newsreaders in the existence.

Maybe you can't, but that's not because slrnpull can't do it.

> That means I don't read your posts, or any responses to them.

What, because you don't know how to operate your software correctly?

> Don't you understand that idiots can't operate computers?

Obviously.
-- 
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]

Alan Connor wrote:
>> I can't score your posts on the From header with the latest build of
>> slrn-slrnpull, one of the best newsreaders in the existence.

Per R�nne wrote:
> Well, then, it isn't one of the best newsreaders if it can't handle
> names from Western Europe. Or you don't use it correctly. Or you use a
> usenet server that is obsolete.

I use slrn, same as Alan. It handles your name just fine.

>> Do you honestly think that having some weird character in your name
>> impresses people?

> It isn't a weird character. It is a standard letter in Danish and
> Norwegian, just like �, � and � are standars letters in German, and �,
> �, �, � and � are standard letters in French. Amricans should simply
> get used to the fact that the internet isn't a US-thing only.

Many Americans have.
-- 
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

In article <0001HW.BF59946900C0CF61F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a true 
> office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy) for 
> one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those European 
> Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the War.)
> 
> In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and 
> immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for American 
> chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all 
> those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, some 
> Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add 
> them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude 
> toward Microsoft.

I believe the discussion was about the search for the 'good' usenet
client.
For you to drag the second world war into the discussion, shows that
you have no sense of perspective and decency. The above quoted message
also shows that you have no factual knowledge about the events that
occured in the period leading up to, and during WWII. This is sad,
common but very sad, especcially since you claim to be 60 years of age.
I can, more or less, understand that youngsters lack the knowledge, but
a man of your age should know better. Or maybe not, you seem to be one
of those types that go to school, learn nothing, and remained stupid
eversince.

To return to the subject of usenet clients, there have been plenty of
suggestions for good newsreaders on the Mac. Your complaint seems to be
"but it doesn't work like in Windows". I've got news for you: Its not
supposed to. The Mac has been (and hopefully always will be) a
multi-window OS. If you want the "Windows" way, then get yourself a
Windows box. Don't start whining here, because you are too stupid to 
educate yourself.

Rant over, I'm done.

-- 
Groeten,
Peter
email: Tbetvnf@ubgcbc.pbz.invalid = - .invalid + ROT-13

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Your script is broken. Google Groups shows 17 articles by "Allen
> Brunson" in the last year and almost 700 since he started posting in the
> 1990s.

good grief.  this is really getting ridiculous now.

i started posting in the nineties with my real name.  then i got a bit
over-involved in some newsgroups, and found myself in a lot of fights, which
led me to take up various aliases.  then i stopped getting into fights, and
only recently took up posting with my real name again.

i'd say my actual total article count is around ten thousand, at least.

Per R�nne <spam@RQNNE.invalid> wrote:

> BTW, the author of MacSOUP is an Austrian PhD in mathematics and
> computer science. Stefan Haller.
> 
> http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~stefan/

That's a different Stefan Haller!  That's not me.

I'm this:

http://home.snafu.de/stk/


-- 
Stefan Haller
Berlin, Germany
http://home.snafu.de/stk/

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> If I'm understanding the above correctly you are referring to the tree
> diagram, in which case you will find literally the same in Hogwasher.

Thsi is true. My only worry with HW is, contrary to MacSoup it won't
allow to export my precious, old, locked posts to a standard format. In
other words: with MacSoup, the day I want to change, I can transfer all
my data to the new guy. With Hogwasher, I am locked in.

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

Allen Brunson <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:

> (...)
> if you want to export messages later, a command-line mbox creation utility
> would work.  point it at one of my program's existing saved message folders
> and have it make an mbox out of it.
> 
> this is not very automated, i admit.  you'd almost certainly have to write a
> few shell scripts to get it to work very well.  but given that my program
> saves all its data in plain old text files ... well, there's zillions of tools
> that work with text files.

OK -that's fair :-)

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

Stefan Haller <stk@snafu.de> wrote:

> Per R�nne <spam@RQNNE.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > BTW, the author of MacSOUP is an Austrian PhD in mathematics and
> > computer science. Stefan Haller.
> > 
> > http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~stefan/
> 
> That's a different Stefan Haller!  That's not me.

Oh, I thought you were the same person, just older ;-(.

Well, /my/ full name is unique. But of course my surname is rare and as
such protected by state {you can't get the name unless adopted or
married in to the family - or, like me, have a father with the name}.

> I'm this:
> 
> http://home.snafu.de/stk/

Which I gave as well ...
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

["Followup-To:" header set to news.software.readers.]

Per R�nne wrote:
> Well, /my/ full name is unique. But of course my surname is rare and
> as such protected by state {you can't get the name unless adopted or
> married in to the family - or, like me, have a father with the name}.

My full name is unique too, but that's just because there aren't many
people who would misspell both "Brad" /and/ "Szanyi"! (My first name
isn't actually "Brad" misspelled. It's "Bradt" misspelled, from an
Anglicized surname.)
-- 
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

Per Rønne wrote:
> Why haven't you given each thread a tree-interface like the one used in
> graph theory and MacSOUP.

i'll answer your question with a different one: why doesn't macsoup allow you
to use more than one news server, or decode binaries?

everybody's got a different idea about what constitutes a complete newsreader.

Allen Brunson <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:

> Per R�nne wrote:
> > Why haven't you given each thread a tree-interface like the one used in
> > graph theory and MacSOUP.
> 
> i'll answer your question with a different one: why doesn't macsoup allow you
> to use more than one news server, or decode binaries?

Drawbacks in MacSOUP - though I consider the lack of full unicode
support more important.

Also, virtual newsgroups had been a good idea. For grouping newsgroups
together, and for splitting them up based on the contents of subject.

> everybody's got a different idea about what constitutes a complete newsreader.

Perhaps. But I /do/ dislike the drawbacks in MacSOUP. I simply dislike
the loss of a proper tree-interface even more.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Per R�nne <spam@RQNNE.invalid> wrote:

> Perhaps. But I /do/ dislike the drawbacks in MacSOUP. I simply dislike
> the loss of a proper tree-interface even more.

this I quite agree with. 
Now that even open-source emailers like GNUmail offer graphical
threading (even nicer than the one of MacSoup ;-) I believe there is
really an added value here...

Herv�

-- 
Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct, h.sainct@laposte.net [fr,es,en,it]
Fr�d�rique's initial is missing in front of the above address
l'initiale de Fr�d�rique manque devant l'adresse email ci-dessus

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:39:15 -0700, Donald McDaniel
<invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

>I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when huge 
>amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich Text at very low 
>cost, along with the necessary software to take advantage of that bandwidth.  
>I guarantee you, I'm not going to 

You somehow think that dressing up boring text with all sorts of crap
like bolding, colours and all that other crap somehow makes your
message "better."  I guarantee you that if your message is crap
dressing it up will only make it look like dressed up crap.  There's a
really good reason people use plain text when they come to public
forums such as usenet.  Plain text is 100% guaranteed to let
*everyone* see the text whereas using rich text or HTML text may mean
that someone may not be able to see it properly if you insist on using
HTML only.  You may think I'm a Luddite but I use a three year old
version of Agent for my NNTP client and am quite happy that you cannot
display HTML or other rich text crap.  Most people don't have a clue
how to use formatting judiciously anyway.
- -
           

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 01:15:48 -0700, Peter van Peursem wrote
(in article <240920051015483204%Tbetvnf@ubgcbc.pbz.invalid>):

> In article <0001HW.BF59946900C0CF61F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently developed a 
>> true 
>> office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft (their avowed enemy) 
>> for 
>> one.  So that would kind of make Steve Jobs much like one of those European 
>> Nazi collaborators ya'll lined up against the wall after the War.)
>> 
>> In this way, Apple users are much like some Europeans and others during and 
>> immediately after the War, in that they reached out their hands for 
>> American 
>> chocolate and cigarettes (and not  a little infrastructure building) all 
>> those years, at the same time cursing us behind their backs.  Of course, 
>> some 
>> Europeans were truly thankful for our help when Herr Hitler wanted to add 
>> them to the Third Reich.  Too bad Apple users can't have the same attitude 
>> toward Microsoft.
> 
> I believe the discussion was about the search for the 'good' usenet
> client.
> For you to drag the second world war into the discussion, shows that
> you have no sense of perspective and decency. The above quoted message
> also shows that you have no factual knowledge about the events that
> occured in the period leading up to, and during WWII. This is sad,
> common but very sad, especcially since you claim to be 60 years of age.
> I can, more or less, understand that youngsters lack the knowledge, but
> a man of your age should know better. Or maybe not, you seem to be one
> of those types that go to school, learn nothing, and remained stupid
> eversince.

No, Peter.  I went to school, but was taught the TRUTH, not some regurgitated 
fictional pap from the mouth of a "Liberal" educator.  I assure you, I 
remember the truth I was taught quite well.  And I learned that many 
Europeans are ungrateful brats.

> 
> To return to the subject of usenet clients, there have been plenty of
> suggestions for good newsreaders on the Mac. Your complaint seems to be
> "but it doesn't work like in Windows". I've got news for you: Its not
> supposed to. The Mac has been (and hopefully always will be) a
> multi-window OS. If you want the "Windows" way, then get yourself a
> Windows box. Don't start whining here, because you are too stupid to 
> educate yourself.

If that is all you see in my complaints, you must have little comprehension 
of English.

> 
> Rant over, I'm done.
> 
> 



By the way, my complaint is NOT that "Mac clients don't work like Windows 
clients" (though I see no reason why a Mac Usenet client cannot, since 
Windows news-readers are the best and most usable clients on the planet, and 
actually work the way their users wants them to work, not the way the 
developers want them to work.

A developer under Windows knows that he will simply not sell any products if 
he doesn't accomodate their users.)

No, Peter, my complaint is that they don't work the way I want them to work, 
instead of the way Mr. Jobs wants them to work.

Windows also uses a multi-windowed environment (hence the name of the product 
"Windows".)  But Windows users do not use "multiple windows" just for the 
sake of using multiple windows, as apparently Mac users do.  Windows users 
use windows to arrange their data in easily-viewable-and-arranged form, not 
to look pretty on the screen, as OSX users apparently do.

Example:
Hogwasher, which most posts in Mac forums seem to indicate as the "most used" 
and "most advanced" Mac Usenet client, can't even set a true Watch on a 
thread, something which the majority of Windows clients have had for years.  
To set anything even resembling a "Watch" is completely artificial.

To do this in Hogwasher, I must first create a filter on the Subject (what 
primitive filtering it is, too!), then give each article in a thread the same 
Label(which I rename as "Watched" for my own convenience, since it is not a 
true Watch), then apply the filter.   After this, I must sort on "Label" if I 
want to bubble them to the top.  This, however, never fails to leave 
"threads" out of order chronologically.

In fact, "threads" are ALWAYS disjointed and out of order chronologically in 
Hogwasher.

In most Windows clients, all you have to do is select the parent article in a 
thread, then press "W".  This puts a true Watch on the ENTIRE THREAD, and 
brings EVERY article with the same subject under it chronologically, in 
either direction, according to my tastes.  If I have set a score color for 
"Watched" threads, this automatically changes the color of EVERY article in 
the thread.  If I want to have all Watched threads bubble to the top of the 
display, all that is needed is to right-click on the "Status" column, and 
they bubble to the top of the display, in true chronological order, in either 
direction I desire.  Hogwasher and other OSX clients don't even have a 
"Status" criterion, or a "Watched" criterion, much less sort on them.

This is because Hogwasher's "sorting" is only on a single column at a time, 
and Hogwasher cannot sort according to two columns at once.  So primitive.

Sorting according to "Date, descending" in Hogwasher also spreads threads 
everywhere out of chronological order.

In other words, Hogwasher is just not correctly assembling threads according 
to both Subject and Date, descending.  So it is not truly creating "threads", 
just look-alikes.

This weird behavior apparently exists in every OSX news-reader I have tried.
Apparently, the concept of a watched thread does not exist in the Mac world 
(except in Netscape or a Mozilla product ported to OSX from Windows.)

Even Outlook Express for Windows, highly considered in the Windows Usenet 
community to be the lamest Usenet client which exists,  correctly assembles 
and sorts threads according to Status, including "Watched", in chronological 
order, in either direction.

If that weren't bad enough, if I want to access Hogwasher's so-called "help" 
files, I must use the "Help Viewer" app OUTSIDE of Hogwasher, since Hogwasher 
refuses to allow me access to the help files from within Hogwasher.
I even sent in a support request from Asar about my inability to access its 
help files using the Menu item "Help".  They gave me a work-around which 
allows me to access the so-called "Help" files for now, but had no idea why 
Hogwasher's help facilities are unavailable to me from within the program.

However, the "help" files are so sparse as to be completely useless.  I was 
able to do ANYTHING I later found in the Help files within an hour of 
installing the product without accessing Help simply through a little 
experimentation, so they were completely worthless to me when I was finally 
able to access them.

No, Peter.  OSX users simply have no idea what a "decent" Usenet client is or 
can do, since they apparently have never seen one in action before. 

By the way:  If you think that it is "indecent" to remind Europeans of just 
who saved their bacon both during and after the War, maybe ya'll need to hear 
a little more "indecency", since you seem to have conveniently forgotten the 
truth (or out-and-out CHANGED it).  I tend to believe that your latter-day 
intelligentsia have CHANGED the truth, rather than forgotten it.   

After all, who wants to remember that they begged chocolate from an American 
soldier as a child, or were cuckolded by one of those soldiers, now that they 
have a few bucks in their pockets and a pretty girl on their arm.

I'm sorry that you have fallen for the lies of those who are busily 
reconstructing History nowadays.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:49:30 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-124F91.15493023092005@news.west.cox.net>):

> In article <0001HW.BF59BC6200CA2DDDF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>>> http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue
>>> %20i n%20Scandinavia.pdf
>> 
>> Since my current Usenet client (Hogwasher 4.22) refuses to allow me 
>> to launch that link from within my Internet Browser (Firefox 1.5b for 
>> OSX), I guess I will have to go through the tedious process of 
>> copying and pasting it into Firefox before I can read it.  Such would 
>> NOT be the case in ANY Windows Usenet client, for all of Windows' 
>> "lameness".
> 
> Why does it refuse to launch the link?  I can do it with Newswatcher.  
> (Because it wasn't enclosed in angle brackets, though, I had to select 
> the entire URL and then command-click it.  If it had the brackets, I 
> could have command-clicked it without selecting it first.)
> 
> 

There is no need to "command-click" an URL in Windows.  Just click (or 
double-click) on it.   There is also no need to enclose URLs in 
angle-brackets, either, since the majority of Windows Usenet clients can 
easily discriminate an URL from the text surrounding it.

Anyway, I found out how to do it in an OSX client.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:46:06 -0700, Howard S Shubs wrote
(in article <howard-8DEBEA.21460623092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article <michelle-4809C2.15052323092005@news.west.cox.net>,
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
>> I do not like three-paned newsreaders or email software.  One of the 
>> nicer things about the lamented Claris Emailer 2.0 is that the user had 
>> the option of a three-paned system or separate windows.  I always used 
>> separate windows.
> 
> What do you think of Mailsmith?
> 
> 

I guess that's your taste decision.  It's good that you were allowed that 
choice by the product.

After all, we all have our likes and dislikes in a software product, whether 
we are confirmed Mac users or not.  If it's "OK" for long-time Mac users to 
have the choice, what is wrong with a converted ex-Windows user having the 
same choice? or even desiring the same choice?

I happen to dislike Usenet clients which also are email clients.  That's my 
taste...which was the one thing I disliked in Forte's Agent.

However, if you like combined Usenet and Email clients, more power to ya.  
I'm certainly not going to try to convince you otherwise.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:01:15 -0700, Tee wrote
(in article <3pjtrmFasgt7U1@individual.net>):

> "Leonard Blaisdell" <leo@greatbasin.com> wrote in message 
> news:leo-5557C7.15590321092005@news.supernews.com...
>> 
>> By the way, I don't know what 'traditional three paned' means.
>> Traditional newsclients go back a long way, far earlier than panes. And
>> if you're talking about traditional Microsoft clients, who cares?
> 
> I'm guessing all the many Windows users Apple is hoping will make the switch 
> and particularly those who already have or are using both OS.
> 
> 

There are not-a-few of us.  And more and more will make the switch if Vista 
turns out to be a big dud.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:22:46 -0500, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5ACB66001665BEF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> There is no need to "command-click" an URL in Windows.  Just click (or 
> double-click) on it.   There is also no need to enclose URLs in 
> angle-brackets, either, since the majority of Windows Usenet clients can 
> easily discriminate an URL from the text surrounding it.

If one chooses to use a multi-button mouse on a Mac then the command-click 
can be replaced by such as a right-click. The convention of enclosing a URL 
within brackets is not something unique to a Mac. The brackets allow for a 
different interpretation of punctuation marks and such when they are included 
within the URL.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

In article <0001HW.BF5ACA170016175DF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> No, Peter.  I went to school, but was taught the TRUTH, not some regurgitated 
> fictional pap from the mouth of a "Liberal" educator.

Which "truth" and according to whom?

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5ACDCE0016F633F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> However, if you like combined Usenet and Email clients, more power to ya.  
> I'm certainly not going to try to convince you otherwise.

No, Mailsmith is not a USENET client.  It's a mail client, as that's 
what she was referring to.  I was curious about how she felt about apps 
with both discrete window interfaces AND optional multi-paned interfaces.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <oriaj1tu6pju8n9cin2ae5q7icisnf5lav@4ax.com>,
 Joseph <JoeOfSeattle@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You somehow think that dressing up boring text with all sorts of crap
> like bolding, colours and all that other crap somehow makes your
> message "better."

There is, after all, a limit to how much you can polish crap.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

[f'up set]

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> And why did you choose to remove the other groups besides
> news.software.readers from the Newsgroups header?

Duh! That's pretty obvious--your petty flames are off topic in all three
groups, but more so in the other two than in news.software.readers.

-- 
Kathy - Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>
OE-quotefix can fix OE:
<http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/> 

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Hogwasher, which most posts in Mac forums seem to indicate as the "most used"
> and "most advanced" Mac Usenet client, can't even set a true Watch on a
> thread, something which the majority of Windows clients have had for years.
> To set anything even resembling a "Watch" is completely artificial.
> 
> To do this in Hogwasher, I must first create a filter on the Subject (what
> primitive filtering it is, too!), then give each article in a thread the same
> Label(which I rename as "Watched" for my own convenience, since it is not a
> true Watch), then apply the filter.   After this, I must sort on "Label" if I
> want to bubble them to the top.  This, however, never fails to leave 
> "threads" out of order chronologically.

In MacSOUP,  just press '+' at the root node, or alt-+ at any node will
auto-mark the entire thread. Pressing + at a node will auto-mark the
sub-tree that comes from that node. The same as "watch", I think.

> In other words, Hogwasher is just not correctly assembling threads according
> to both Subject and Date, descending.  So it is not truly creating "threads",
> just look-alikes.

But MacSOUP does:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:51:56 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3ds4e.28jbyy1fisefmN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:
> 
>> In article <230920051452085128%fort514@mac.com>,
>> Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> That is not needed in text based newsgroups. And in my opinion it is
>>> undesirable. Only a few newbies and webtv users have been posting html
>>> and most turn it off when asked nicely.
>> 
>> And the rest find they don't get many replies, since the newsmasters 
>> filter out messages with HTML in them in normal newsgroups.
> 
> I can't even read them properly; all the html tags show up in plain text
> instead of being interpretated. So I'll just autoblacklist such replies
> {then I won't have to bother with possible replies either}.
> 
> How to blacklist a subtree? Just press '-'.
> 

That's not the fault of HTML, Per.  It is a fault of your client, which 
apparently fails to properly decode HTML messages.  This may or may not be 
desirable, according to one's taste.

By the way:  since OSX is SO devoid of security concerns, because it is such 
a "SUPERIOR" OS, and HTML seems to be a concern only for security-minded 
people, what's the matter with HTML as far as security is concerned, when, 
after all, "OSX NEVER gets a virus or other nasty, because it CAN'T" (or at 
least that's what Apple propagandists loudly proclaim.)

I tend to believe, however, that a Mac's perceived freedom from security 
concerns is simply because Apple has up till now shut itself off from the 
rest of the world with its OS.

But I assure you, Apple cannot remain in its little bubble forever. It will 
catch up with you one day, because the more Macs are sold, the more they will 
become the targets of virus writers everywhere.

While many virus writers are simply "script-kiddies" out for a laugh, there 
are a devoted core who are totally gonzo programmers (including excellent 
Unix programmers), who out-pace OS manufacturers in their security measures 
over and over.

Apple's turn will come, count on it.  It may come soon, or it may come later. 
 But it will come, mark my words.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF59951A00C0F8B4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Ok, Per, allow me the liberty to revise my statement a little:
> "I think most longtime "MAC FANATICS" would be a little frustrated with 
> changing over suddenly to the Wintel paradigm, and even vent a little>"

and why exactly do 'mac fanatics' need to switch to the wintel paradigm?

In article <0001HW.BF5ACA170016175DF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> By the way, my complaint is NOT that "Mac clients don't work like Windows 
> clients" (though I see no reason why a Mac Usenet client cannot, since 
> Windows news-readers are the best and most usable clients on the planet, 

opinion.  

> and 
> actually work the way their users wants them to work, not the way the 
> developers want them to work.

all applications on all platforms work the way the developers want them
to work.  the question is do the developers listen to the requests of
users.  some do and some don't.  nothing mac or windows specific here. 

> A developer under Windows knows that he will simply not sell any products if 
> he doesn't accomodate their users.)

this is true for all products on all platforms, not just windows.

> No, Peter, my complaint is that they don't work the way I want them to work, 
> instead of the way Mr. Jobs wants them to work.

mr. jobs did not write any mac newsreader, so your blame is entirely
misplaced.

you want a newsreader that works the way you are accustomed on windows. 
there is nothing wrong with that but to claim that is the 'one true
way' of newsreaders is ludicrous.  

> Windows also uses a multi-windowed environment (hence the name of the product 
> "Windows".)  But Windows users do not use "multiple windows" just for the 
> sake of using multiple windows, as apparently Mac users do.  

users use multiple windows because they find it more productive.  a
well designed app offers the user the choice instead of the developers
forcing their ideas.  you seem to want to force your ideas and not
allow the user to choose what works best for them.  why is that?

> Windows users 
> use windows to arrange their data in easily-viewable-and-arranged form, not 
> to look pretty on the screen, as OSX users apparently do.

do you really believe this crap?

In article <0001HW.BF5AD3EC00186523F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> By the way:  since OSX is SO devoid of security concerns, because it 
> is such a "SUPERIOR" OS, and HTML seems to be a concern only for 
> security-minded people, what's the matter with HTML as far as 
> security is concerned, when, after all, "OSX NEVER gets a virus or 
> other nasty, because it CAN'T" (or at least that's what Apple 
> propagandists loudly proclaim.)

I apologize for being so slow, but I've had a lot on my plate recently.  
But I finally get it:  you are a troll.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF5ACDCE0016F633F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> >> I do not like three-paned newsreaders or email software.  One of 
> >> the nicer things about the lamented Claris Emailer 2.0 is that the 
> >> user had the option of a three-paned system or separate windows.  
> >> I always used separate windows.
> 
> I guess that's your taste decision.  It's good that you were allowed 
> that choice by the product.

Yup, it is good to be allowed that choice.  Internal testing, and later 
on, beta testing, and the the public beta, revealed that half the users 
preferred the three-pane interface, and half preferred separate windows, 
so we left both in.  Made our job at SQA a bit more challenging, but our 
customers benefitted from it.

> After all, we all have our likes and dislikes in a software product, 
> whether we are confirmed Mac users or not.  If it's "OK" for 
> long-time Mac users to have the choice, what is wrong with a 
> converted ex-Windows user having the same choice? or even desiring 
> the same choice?

Nothing.  What is wrong is when someone calls a program crap because it 
doesn't have the interface he prefers.

> However, if you like combined Usenet and Email clients, more power to 
> ya.  I'm certainly not going to try to convince you otherwise.

I don't.  Whatever gave you the idea that I did?

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF5ACB66001665BEF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> There is no need to "command-click" an URL in Windows.  Just click 
> (or double-click) on it.  

It is dependent on the application, not on the OS.  Some applications 
require command clicking; others do not.

> There is also no need to enclose URLs in angle-brackets, either, 
> since the majority of Windows Usenet clients can easily discriminate 
> an URL from the text surrounding it.

I know quite a number of windows users who wished that were true.  If a 
URL is broken by carriage returns, many applications get confused and 
consider only the first line to be the entire URL.  Again, it depends on 
the application, not the OS.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <howard-3A5139.12480024092005@news.supernews.com>,
 Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> > No, Peter.  I went to school, but was taught the TRUTH, not some 
> > regurgitated fictional pap from the mouth of a "Liberal" educator.
> 
> Which "truth" and according to whom?

Truth according to the right-wing educator who was regurgitating their 
version of fictional pap.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <slrndj9tru.1dk.i3x9mdw@b29x3m.invalid>,
 Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> I can check the posting history of people on the Usenet with a single 
> keystroke.

Whoopie!

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <1h3dva0.1x8ccngkagpulN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> It isn't a weird character. It is a standard letter in Danish and 
> Norwegian, just like �, � and � are standars letters in German, and 
> �, �, �, � and � are standard letters in French. Amricans should 
> simply get used to the fact that the internet isn't a US-thing only.

Please don't lump all of us with those few ugly Americans.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:32:46 -0700, Dave Hinz wrote
(in article <3pjajuFapv35U1@individual.net>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:25:42 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> The US is so far back in the dark ages that my brother and I must pay US 
>> $129/month for a 1.5kbps satellite connection
> 
> You should look into DirecWay - it's orders of magnitude faster.  We
> have a local wireless "last mile" provider who gives us 1.5-2Mbps for
> $24.99/month, so it's not a country thing, it's a "local ISP" thing.

I wouldn't exactly call "2 mips" rather than "1.5 mips" (which we currently 
have) "orders of magnitude faster."  But the $24.99/month is beautiful to 
behold.  To bad it just won't happen here, unless a satellite provider lowers 
its prices drastically (I just don't see that happening anytime soon), or a 
wireless operator installs a tower within line-of-sight of us (also won't 
happen anytime soon.)

> 
>> You've 
>> never seen latency until you've used a satellite connection.
> 
> That much is true.  Unavoidably so.
> 

That's just it: Our satellite IS provided by DirecWay.  However, we are so 
far out in the country that we can't even receive a cell-phone call.

Apparently we are in a "shadow" of some sort which keeps us from sending or 
receiving the signal.  However, two miles down the road, we can send or 
receive a cell-phone call (or receive a wireless signal).  Such is Chance 
(and mountains between us and the Towers.)

There simply is no local ISP which provides satellite (or wireless, if we 
could receive it) out here.  We would love a wireless (or satellite) signal 
for $24.99/month, but the closest access we could get would be by selling the 
house and MOVING 20 miles closer to Spokane.  

If we did that, we could be on the Cable instead for the same price (I just 
LOVE the Cable.  I had a 1.5mips connection in Seattle.  It was stable as a 
rock, and I had unlimited downloads for no extra premium.  Just my luck that 
Cable providers began offering 3-5 mips for the same price (about $39/month) 
just as I moved away from Seattle.)
 
But every cable installer I've talked to out here assures us we will NEVER be 
on the Cable.  It appears that people are kind of spread out in our neck of 
the woods, and it would not bring much revenue to them if they extended the 
Cable to us.  In fact, it would cost much more than it's worth to extend it 
the extra 20 miles needed to get it to us.  I really don't blame them, 
however.  Why increase infrastructure, when it will never bring appreciable 
revenue? After all, they are in the business to make money, not give it away.

So we suck in our guts, and do what we can.  

However, like the G.I., each man is entitled to bitch a little (or a lot).  
It helps us to pass the day out here in the Boondocks (when we're not 
fighting or boozing it up out of boredom.)

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:04:59 -0700, Dave Hinz wrote
(in article <3pjcgbFalhv8U2@individual.net>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:50:13 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>> US$60/month is rather expensive here in the US, when more and more Cable 
>> ISPs 
>> are providing 3 kbps flat-rate for the same amount I was paying for 1.5 
>> kbps 
>> a year ago.
> 
> You keep saying 1.5 kbps - about 1/3 the speed of a modem.  Are you sure
> this is what you mean?  I could see 1.5 mbps, but not kbps.
> 
> Dave Hinz

Sorry:  I meant 1.5mbps.  I keep making the same mistake over and over.  
Don't know why.  I'm constantly arguing with my brother about the difference 
between "kbps" and "mbps".  I guess I'm just getting old and crotchety.

Please just substitute "mbps" for "kbps" in my posts.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:04:23 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3dsm1.vw6b651ofajdrN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:32:27 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
>> (in article <1h3d22k.hcntmz1ijx8jhN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):
>> 
>>> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 1) A 23 kbps dial-up account ( I assure you, even trying to download your
>>>> home page at this speed is an EXCRUCIATING experience),
>>> 
>>> In Denmark, this was obsolete a decade ago. No, 2 Mbps flatrate for ~60
>>> USD a month is closer to the present situation in my country ...
>>> 
>> 
>> US$60/month is rather expensive here in the US, when more and more Cable 
>> ISPs
>> are providing 3 kbps flat-rate for the same amount I was paying for 1.5 kbps
>> a year ago.
> 
> 2 Mbps is 683 times faster than 3 kbps. 1024*2/3.
> 

Please forgive my gaffe, Per.  I meant "1.5mbps" rather than "1.5kbps".  My 
mind is just not as sharp as it used to be.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

M-M <nospam@ny.more> wrote:

> And it supports x-face!

As does MacSOUP:-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <0001HW.BF59951A00C0F8B4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
> > Ok, Per, allow me the liberty to revise my statement a little:
> > "I think most longtime "MAC FANATICS" would be a little frustrated with
> > changing over suddenly to the Wintel paradigm, and even vent a little>"
> 
> and why exactly do 'mac fanatics' need to switch to the wintel paradigm?

If they get a new job :-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> That's not the fault of HTML, Per.  It is a fault of your client, which
> apparently fails to properly decode HTML messages.

No, it dowsn't "fail" to properly decode html-messages. It just doesn't
decode them :-).
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:32:46 -0700, Dave Hinz wrote
> (in article <3pjajuFapv35U1@individual.net>):
> 
> > On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:25:42 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com>
> > wrote:
> > 
> >> The US is so far back in the dark ages that my brother and I must pay US
> >> $129/month for a 1.5kbps satellite connection
> > 
> > You should look into DirecWay - it's orders of magnitude faster.  We
> > have a local wireless "last mile" provider who gives us 1.5-2Mbps for
> > $24.99/month, so it's not a country thing, it's a "local ISP" thing.
> 
> I wouldn't exactly call "2 mips" rather than "1.5 mips" (which we currently
> have) "orders of magnitude faster."

But you wrote "kbps" which /is/ one thousandth less than "Mbps" ;-(.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On news.software.readers, in <1h3dvvq.d4rgdm1a70sx5N%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, "Kathy Morgan" wrote:
<body not downloaded>

The things people will do to avoid discussing issues that make
them uncomfortable is truly amazing.

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:58:08 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-54F87F.14580823092005@news.west.cox.net>):

> In article <0001HW.BF59C4C400CC24B1F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> We are breaking into your club, dude, whether you like it or not.  So 
>> get used to it, or get off the Net.
> 
> You must have voted for Bush.
> 
> 

No, Michelle, I didn't vote for anyone in the last Presidential election.  In 
fact, the last time I voted in a  Presidential election was when I voted for 
Jimmy Carter in the '70s (that kind, kind man.  Too bad he was just too kind 
to be a U.S. president.  But he has certainly earned my respect as a lover of 
humankind.

I am registered as an Independent, rather than either a Democrat or 
Republican.  And my political views are more in line with a Libertarian view 
than either a Democratic or Republican one (if you want to put a label on 
me.)  In addition, arguing with my brother about politics for the last year 
has pretty much brought me around to a more liberal view 
(politically-speaking).

I'm all for getting that "rampaging teenager" out of the White House soon, 
just as most of our citizens are. (But, of course, he and his cronies will 
fade away in 3 years anyway, and we can start rebuilding the US out of the 
ashes they will leave behind once again.)  Have a little patience.   

The Constitution has stood quite well for over 200 years, and, I'm confident, 
will stand for another 200, at the very least.  All it takes is for the 
people to unite around it, instead of fracturing into a thousand little 
groups(with each only concerned about it's own narrow interests, as we appear 
to be doing nowadays.) 

Anyway, my political or religious leanings have absolutely nothing to do with 
what I desire in a Usenet client.  If you think they do, it's because you 
simply don't know or appreciate me as a fellow-human being.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:42:03 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5A434B0019A4BDF0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:43:11 -0500, Lars Farm wrote
> (in article <1h3cy56.1214imc1n33pr0N%see.bottom.of.page.for.lars@farm.se>):
> 
>>> For sure, MacSOUP has lots of drawbacks like the lack of support of
>>> multiple servers at the same time, and the lack of full support of
>>> unicode. But I simply can't do without its tree-interface.
> 
> If I'm understanding the above correctly you are referring to the tree 
> diagram, in which case you will find literally the same in Hogwasher.
> 
> 

The "tree diagram" just gets in my way.  To bad it won't stay out of the way.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 04:55:55 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3ebvc.1ijfzbc1044cl5N%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> Allen Brunson <brunsona@takethisout.newsguy.com> wrote:
> 
>> Per R�nne wrote:
>>> Why haven't you given each thread a tree-interface like the one used in
>>> graph theory and MacSOUP.
>> 
>> i'll answer your question with a different one: why doesn't macsoup allow 
>> you
>> to use more than one news server, or decode binaries?
> 
> Drawbacks in MacSOUP - though I consider the lack of full unicode
> support more important.
> 
> Also, virtual newsgroups had been a good idea. For grouping newsgroups
> together, and for splitting them up based on the contents of subject.
> 
>> everybody's got a different idea about what constitutes a complete 
>> newsreader.
> 
> Perhaps. But I /do/ dislike the drawbacks in MacSOUP. I simply dislike
> the loss of a proper tree-interface even more.
> 

I just don't like Hogwasher's "virtual groups".  They butcher my display (I 
mean, its not as if Hogwasher really has "threads" anyway.)


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <michelle-A88648.10225124092005@news.west.cox.net>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> Truth according to the right-wing educator who was regurgitating their 
> version of fictional pap.

Doesn't require that, Michelle.  There are other axies of political 
thought.  The point is that if he believes he was taught the "truth", 
he's living in a dream world.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5ADF50001B10A6F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Please forgive my gaffe, Per.  I meant "1.5mbps" rather than "1.5kbps".  My 
> mind is just not as sharp as it used to be.

Perhaps you need to sharpen your blade? :-,

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <240920051001146619%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> you want a newsreader that works the way you are accustomed on windows. 
> there is nothing wrong with that but to claim that is the 'one true
> way' of newsreaders is ludicrous.  

Correct.  The One True Way is to use rn on UNIX.  So I'm a deviant, in 
that I prefer nn. :-.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <howard-41135A.14285724092005@news.supernews.com>,
 Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> > Truth according to the right-wing educator who was regurgitating 
> > their version of fictional pap.
> 
> Doesn't require that, Michelle.  There are other axies of political 
> thought. 

True, but he indicated it that it wasn't liberal, so he defined the axis 
in use.

> The point is that if he believes he was taught the "truth", he's 
> living in a dream world.

I think that we determined that already, apart from that particular 
belief. <g>

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 05:55:16 -0700, Fr�d�rique & Herv� Sainct wrote
(in article <1h3eeg2.19qfh9wxjzovwN%h.sainct@laposte.net.invalid>):

> Per R�nne <spam@RQNNE.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps. But I /do/ dislike the drawbacks in MacSOUP. I simply dislike
>> the loss of a proper tree-interface even more.
> 
> this I quite agree with. 
> Now that even open-source emailers like GNUmail offer graphical
> threading (even nicer than the one of MacSoup ;-) I believe there is
> really an added value here...
> 
> Herv�
> 
> 

Which are we talking about here?  Usenet clients, or Email clients?
Usenet clients which incorporate e-mail functions simply destroy the very 
concept of "Usenet client".  In addition, they bloat the Usenet client aspect 
unnecessarily.  After all, e-mail clients are a dime-a-dozen.  Why add 
another one to your Usenet client?

An e-mail client built into a news-reader doesn't "add value", it distorts 
the Usenet concept and unnecessarily bloats products.  Most Usenet clients in 
the Windows world work with almost ANY Windows-based external e-mail client.  
There is simply no need to add an internal one.  However, I realize that that 
is the direction most Usenet clients seem to be taking.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5AE79F001D030FF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Anyway, my political or religious leanings have absolutely nothing to 
> do with what I desire in a Usenet client.  If you think they do, it's 
> because you simply don't know or appreciate me as a fellow-human 
> being.

Oh, it has nothing to do with what you desire in a usenet client; it has 
everything to do with your "We are breaking into your club, dude, 
whether you like it or not.  So get used to it, or get off the Net," 
attitude.

That should have tipped me off to you being a troll, but it's been a 
rough week, so it took me a bit longer to figure it out.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:16:24 -0700, Tee wrote
(in article <3pjunrFal0ihU1@individual.net>):

> "Allen Brunson" <brunsona@newsguy.takethisout.com> wrote in message 
> news:PM0004013A53E6D6D6@remy.nashville.comcast.net...
>> I am working on a new Mac OS X USENET newsreader.  It's far from finished, 
>> but
>> it's come a really long way in the last few months, and will get a lot 
>> better
>> in the next few.
>> 
>> Up until now, I've had only three users, because I wanted to deal with a 
>> small
>> group of trusted people while I worked out the worst of the bugs.  It's 
>> pretty
>> stable now, so I feel better about letting the rest of the world see it. 
>> I am
>> interested in bug reports and feature suggestions, to help me prioritize 
>> the
>> work remaining.  In particular, I'm going to be starting work on filtering
>> rules pretty soon, and I'll be interested to hear what people use filters 
>> for
>> in other newsreaders.
> 
> Where/how are you hoping to garner this feedback?
> 
> I like the app so far, considering that its a base model version.
> 
> I'm not one of those filter-crazy people (and there seem to be alot so maybe 
> I'm the crazy one) who want to filter on any one of 1000 possibilities.
> 
> I want a solid, dependable, *account-wide*, killfile that blocks on either 
> name or email address (both listed as options and not either/or).  By 
> account-wide I mean no putting someone in a killfile only to have them still 
> viewable in 3 other newsgroups I'm subscribed to.  If I KF someone I expect 
> them to be KF'd across the board.
> 
> I know filtering on newsgroups, number of newsgroups in a distribution, etc. 
> are also very popular.
> 
> I like toolbars with the basics for downloading new headers, Reply To All, 
> Reply, New Message, Print and the like.  The most common tasks a person 
> performs when participating in usenet.
> 
> Keyboard shortcuts for the basics is also a necessity for me and I'd guess 
> for alot of people.  As a laptop user I don't want to constantly ctrl+click 
> or move my pointer to a menu to achieve something like Catch-Up or Download 
> New Headers (you call it transfer which seems a bit odd to me).
> 
> I may be blind but I don't see any functionality for marking messages or 
> threads for watch or ignore.  I'm pulling my terms from OE since that's what 
> I use most (out of choice believe it or not).  I often mark threads for 
> watching if I'm trying to keep up with something important.  I like watched 
> threads to become bold and of a different color so they stand out but I want 
> them to stay in their proper place in the window and not jump to the 
> beginning or end.  I like making ignored threads either invisible or just 
> barely visible by using a light font color.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> 

If you don't want the option to bubble watched threads either to the top of 
the display or the bottom, simply don't sort according to "Status".  At least 
Outlook Express (and other Windows clients) give the OPTION to do it if you 
desire.  Not only that, but sorting according to Status also sorts threads 
chronologically in either direction without manually sorting on "Date".  

This seems to not be the case with any of the OSX apps I've tried so far.  In 
fact, the concept of "Watched" does not appear to even exist in OSX Usenet 
apps, and I've yet to find an OSX client which assembles and sorts threads in 
any resemblance of a chronological order.

I mean, really, who wants to pick through hundreds (or thousands) of 
non-chronologically sorted posts just to find a few (or many) Watched 
threads?  Certainly not me, unless I have no other option available.  Put 
them at the top or the bottom, and you can access them right off the bat, 
with little or no navigation needed.  It certainly makes it simpler to follow 
an on-going conversation that way.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:43:39 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-23069D.15433923092005@news.west.cox.net>):

> In article <0001HW.BF59946900C0CF61F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Per, I was trying to show that Apple has NEVER independently 
>> developed a true office suite.  They have always relied on Microsoft 
>> (their avowed enemy) for one.
> 
> How do you define "true office suite"?  Clarisworks (now called 
> Appleworks) 1.0 knocked Microsoft Works 2.0 out of the ring.
> 
> Appleworks is long in the tooth and definitely showing its age; much of 
> its functionality (with the notable exception of spreadsheet) is now in 
> Pages (which is part of iWorks--the remaining part being Keynote, which 
> is like Powerpoint on steroids).
> 
> 

Both AppleWorks and Microsoft Works are toys when compared to Microsoft 
Office System for Windows.

Apple didn't develop either of them, either independently, or at all.

In addition, neither offer either a PIM, or an email client, while MOS for 
Windows offers both, combined as a single product (Microsoft Outlook for 
Windows or Entourage for OSX).  I guess when it comes to great Office suites, 
Apple is the "poor cousin", rather than the "grandfather".


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5AD3EC00186523F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> By the way:  since OSX is SO devoid of security concerns, because it is such 
> a "SUPERIOR" OS, and HTML seems to be a concern only for security-minded 
> people, what's the matter with HTML as far as security is concerned, when, 
> after all, "OSX NEVER gets a virus or other nasty, because it CAN'T" (or at 
> least that's what Apple propagandists loudly proclaim.)

There are idiots everywhere.  Don't be one of them.


> Apple's turn will come, count on it.  It may come soon, or it may come later. 
>  But it will come, mark my words.

Wow, you must be some kind of modern Cassandra.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <michelle-4828FB.10091924092005@news.west.cox.net>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> I apologize for being so slow, but I've had a lot on my plate recently.  
> But I finally get it:  you are a troll.

Nah, he keeps participating.  He strikes me as "annoyed", and perhaps 
disappointed.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <240920051001126509%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> and why exactly do 'mac fanatics' need to switch to the wintel paradigm?

Well, we're going to switch to the mactel platform soon enough. :-D

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5AF188001F55ABF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Both AppleWorks and Microsoft Works are toys when compared to 
> Microsoft Office System for Windows.

It all depends on one's needs.  You don't use a sledge hammer if all you 
need is a tack hammer.

Oh, BTW, Microsoft Office for the Mac tends to be superior to Microsoft 
Office for Windows.

> Apple didn't develop either of them, either independently, or at all.

Either of what?  Obviously, Apple didn't develop the Microsoft products, 
but Appleworks is merely a rebranding of ClarisWorks--and Claris was a 
wholly owned subsidiary of Apple.

> In addition, neither offer either a PIM, or an email client,

Considering that iCal and mail.app come with OS X, there's no need to 
include them with AppleWorks, is there?

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF5AF188001F55ABF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Both AppleWorks and Microsoft Works are toys when compared to Microsoft 
> Office System for Windows.

Actually, you'll find that the Mac version currently has more features.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5AEB69001DE682F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Which are we talking about here?  Usenet clients, or Email clients?

There are at least two sub-threads.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:08:05 -0700, Kathy Morgan wrote
(in article <1h3b8g9.juto91n7fznbN%kmorgan@spamcop.net>):

> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> Of course, the conventions I mentioned are usually possible with a Window's
>> Usenet client, since most of them allow granular formatting of words or
>> phrases of almost any type (allowing HTML, RTF, or Plain Text composition).
>> However, such compositions are almost universally detested by Unix geeks, 
>> and
>> I have yet to find an OSX client which allows such granularity in formatting
>> compositions,
> 
> That's probably just as well.  Many of us ignore all HTML formatted
> posts.  They're easy to recognize without even downloading them, so I
> ignore them except in newuser groups.
> 
> FWIW, many clients will recognize the asterisk, underscore, and slant to
> indicate *bold* _underline_ and /italics/.  Even those of us using
> clients that don't interpret them can interpret them appropriately, and
> they don't bloat the size of the post. 

> Appropriate use of CAPS, *, _,
> and / can be used to add emphasis in a post.
> 
> 

Is that so?  Then why am I being criticized in these groups for using CAPS 
for exactly that purpose?

As far as the dusty-old Usenet conventions are concerned, they are NOT being 
used because many people don't  WANT to use bold, underlined, or italic 
formatting, but because VERY FEW Usenet clients ALLOW it, because of the Unix 
Nazis who control most Usenet servers.  And MOSTLY because "thats the way its 
always been done, and if I do it that way, I won't be shut out of the 
'crowd'."  After all, who wants to lose his or her "fair-weather" friends?  

Evidently not most of the Mac users I've seen so far.  They all seem to crush 
together like bleating sheep who've smelt a wolf ANYTIME something "novel" 
comes to their attention, and strike out viciously at ANYONE (friend or foe) 
who expresses a contrary position, or accomplishes something just as well, or 
differently, than they do.  If this is the result of following their Guru, 
Mr. Jobs, I really feel sorry for them, since they now have little real 
humanity left inside.

I certainly don't want the majority of Mac users I've seen so far as my 
friends.  Man, they would be worse than my worst enemies even as "friends"!


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:55:20 -0700, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3c3b9.8bxy4v1vc8qdpN%spam@husumtoften.invalid>):

> Donald L McDaniel <invalid@innvalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I don't know if you noticed it, PAOLO, but caps are ALSO used to provide
>> emphasis, not just to "yell", as you apparently think it ALWAYS means .  
>> Now,
>> if more modern newsreaders allowed for HTML or Rich Text editing (many 
>> Windows
>> Newsreadsers do), and Unix traditionalists didn't weep like babies and have 
>> an
>> apoplexic fit each time they see a word with helpful formatting, there would
>> be no need for caps as emphasis on a word, since we would be able to format
>> the text we want to emphasize as Underlined or Italic.  By the way, that's 
>> not
>> the same as formatting ALL text as Underlined or Italic, as this newsreader
>> apparently only allows.  It would be great if the formatting was granular 
>> down
>> to the single word level, but it's not.
>> 
>> I need a little granularity in composition of text, since I am pretty
>> emotional, and desire to get my emotions across.  I really DON'T like using
>> caps as emphasis, but I have no choice in the matter, since most Usenet
>> clients don't allow for  anything else.
> 
> It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and
> underline as _underline_. Proper newsreaders might even show it as
> italics, bold and underline, and send it with slashes, asterisks and
> underline chars. For compatibility reasons.
> 

It apparently is only "standard" with old-time Usenet users, or Mac users.  
It certainly isn't "standard" among Windows users.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5AFB9A0021B207F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> > It's standard to write italics as /italics/, bold as *bold* and 
> > underline as _underline_. Proper newsreaders might even show it as 
> > italics, bold and underline, and send it with slashes, asterisks 
> > and underline chars. For compatibility reasons.
> 
> It apparently is only "standard" with old-time Usenet users, or Mac 
> users.  It certainly isn't "standard" among Windows users.

it apparently is standard with everyone but you, and goes back two 
decades to dialup BBSes and subscription online services such as 
Compuserve and The Source.  (Except for the slash for italics; this is 
the first I've seen of that.)  It antedates WYSIWYG interfaces.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:11:58 -0700, Nelson wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF58965E003C72E0F04075B0@news.giganews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:19:11 -0400, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF585FCF007B7F18F0284550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 07:29:03 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
>> (in article <0001HW.BF5829DF00240C22F0284550@news.supernews.com>):
>> 
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 04:30:24 -0500, Donald L McDaniel wrote
>>> (in article <0001HW.BF57C7C00068E016F0305550@news20.forteinc.com>):
>>> 
>>>> Really?  Two hours of experimentation on this has resulted in LITTLE or 
>>>> NO 
>>>> ability to change colors or fonts in Hogwasher.
>>> 
>>> Look in Hogwasher preferences (that does seem to be the obvious place!) 
>>> and 
>>> there are options to change both Fonts and Colors.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> I found those "preferences" immediately after installing Hogwasher (after 
>> all, EVERY OSX program I've come across to date has a "Preferences" 
>> selection 
> 
>> below the name of the program in the Menu bar.  It's kind of hard to miss.  
>>  
>> In addition, the first thing I do when setting up a new client is set all 
>> the 
> 
>> preferences I possibly can.)  Apparently, Hogwasher's Font/Colors 
>> "preferences" are EXTREMELY limited in their effectiveness.  I don't want 
>> to 
>> change the colors for each level of reply in a downloaded body, I want to 
>> SET 
> 
>> a WATCH and have all replies recolored the same way, and set different 
>> sizes 
>> and fonts for EACH possible  type of display element.
>> 
>> Apparently,  Hogwasher only allows for THREE display elements, namely, the 
>> Browser text, the Headers listing text, and the Body text, with NO 
>> granularity for 99% of the possible display elements.
>> 
>> There appears to be NO understanding of "setting a Watch" or "bubbling 
>> Watched Articles to the top of the display", so there is no way to even SET 
>> the color or font of a Watched thread, since such a concept does not appear 
>> to even exist in Hogwasher.  However, Hogwasher is NOT alone in this huge 
>> lack, as EVERY OSX news client I have tried in the last week seem to follow 
>> Hogwasher's example.
> 
> Again, rather than asking *how* one would do it, you blast off that 
> there is NO WAY to do it (as in EVERY OSX client).  Get a grip.
> 
> Select a message.  Select "New Filter by Subject (or Author) from the 
> message menu pull down.  Under the "Actions" Tab select label and 
> select the color you want.  The next time you download messages, that 
> thread will be "watched" and colored the color you selected. You can 
> even give them a textual name and select from a bazillion colors. To 
> have watched threads "bubble to the top", sort the message list by the 
> label column, ie click in the label column.
> 
> 

Yes, I've already explored that.  It seems to be my only option at present.  
However, sorting on "Label" puts the rest of the listing out of even a 
semblance of a chronological order, since it apparently can't sort threads on 
two columns at once, and keep the threads together in chronological order.

Also, because of Hogwasher's lack of a Boolean Views editor (or ANY kind of 
Views editor, for that matter), the filtering is completely inadequate for my 
purposes, since I desire to filter on BOTH the WATCHED or UNREAD Status of a 
thread.  There is apparently not even a way to FILTER on the Watched or 
Unread Status of a thread in Hogwasher, since neither Status exists in 
Hogwasher.  (I might have missed it some how because a difference in 
terminology between OSX and Windows.)  In addition, the "Status" column of 
the display cannot be sorted on.

This is very easy to accomplish in most Windows news-readers I have used, 
since they have truly Boolean Views editors.    (See Forte Agent 3.1 or 
MicroPlanet Gravity for outstanding examples of implementing this 
highly-usable feature).  But of course, these programs are not available for 
OSX, since Forte wouldn't be able to sell enough OSX clients (at this time) 
to add the expense necessary to port their flagship product to OSX, and 
MicroPlanet Gravity is no longer under development (but still widely 
available), even for Windows).    

Heck, even Outlook Express for Windows, widely hated by most Usenet users in 
the Windows world, has an excellent Boolean Views editor (in addition to 
providing more than adequate filtering: good enough, in fact, to "flick a 
horse-fly off the horse's left eyelid at a running gait".)

Perhaps you know how to accomplish this in Hogwasher?


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5AFA5D002167A4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Evidently not most of the Mac users I've seen so far.  They all seem 
> to crush together like bleating sheep who've smelt a wolf ANYTIME 
> something "novel" comes to their attention, and strike out viciously 
> at ANYONE (friend or foe) who expresses a contrary position, or 
> accomplishes something just as well, or differently, than they do.

Baloney!

> I certainly don't want the majority of Mac users I've seen so far as 
> my friends.  Man, they would be worse than my worst enemies even as 
> "friends"!

The feeling is mutual.  I certainly wouldn't want anyone who is 
bombastic, narrow-minded, offensive, aggressive, and intolerant as you 
as an acquaintance, let alone as a friend.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> The "tree diagram" just gets in my way.  To bad it won't stay out of the way.

I like it the way MacSOUP does it. To each his own. It would probably be
semitrivial to add a "hide tree" command...

Please note that MacSOUP uses proper threading in other ways than to
provide a visual map of how the discussion develops. It is also the
foundation for the very useful filtering mechanisms "kill/tag
subthread". Once someone mentions the unmentionable you know that every
reply from here on out is without interest. You hit '-' to prune the
subthread with every future response and can continue reading the still
healthy parts of the thread. This requires proper threading. It can not
be done using subjects only.

L

-- 
lars farm  //  http://www.farm.se
lars is also a mail-account on the server farm.se
aim: larsfarm@mac.com

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:32:33 -0700, TaliesinSoft wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5871010034B815F0284550@news.supernews.com>):

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:27:06 -0500, Donald McDaniel wrote
> (in article <0001HW.BF58458A00755706F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):
> 
>> Perhaps you will find it in your heart to explain to me with a little more 
>> detail how YOU get Help in Hogwasher.
> 
> I'll give it a try....
> 
> I'm running Hogwasher 4.2 under Mac OS X 10.4.2.
> 
> When Hogwasher is the active application the Help menu presents me with the 
> single option, Hogwasher Help. Clicking on that single option brings up a 
> window presenting me with the following options:
> 
>      What's new in 4.2?
> 
>      What's new in 4.1?
> 
>      Quick Start
> 
>      Using the Online Help
> 
>      Registration and Setup
> 
>      Hogwasher Overview
> 
>      Hogwasher Reference
> 
>      For New Hogwasher Users
> 
>      For Existing Hogwasher Users
> 
>      Usenet Primer
> 
>      Encoding Reference
> 
>      Shortcuts and Hints
> 
>      Troubleshooting
> 
> In turn, each of the above, when selected, presents another list of options. 
> When one of those is selected one then gets a detailed explanation of how to 
> use a particular Hogwasher feature.
> 
> The Hogwasher help files, all 3.4 MB of them, are located within the 
> Hogwasher Help folder within the Resources folder which in turn is located 
> within the Hogwasher application package.
> 
> I hope this helps a bit. If not, please feel to post additional queries and I 

> will be glad to try to help.
> 
> 

Thanks.  I sent a support request to Hogwasher, and they told me the same 
thing.  However, they also gave me a work-around whereby I am now able to 
access the Help files (but sadly, still not from within Hogwasher itself, 
since I am still getting a blank search dialog which brings up nothing when 
using the Menu-bar option).  

I must access them directly from the Hogwasher help folder using an external 
viewer ("Help Viewer") from my Applications folder.  This defeats the very 
purpose of even having a "Help" option on the Menubar.

They did answer my support request very fast (within a day, something not so 
prevalent in the Windows world), so that is a good point in their favor.


I have been reading about Thoth a little.  It will be my next trial.  Would 
you happen to know the developer's URL?  I really would want to get the 
latest iteration of the product usable under Tiger..,

In the mean time, I will continue to search for the site via Google.

-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:42:44 -0700, Howard S Shubs wrote
(in article <howard-2CA0B3.19424422092005@news.supernews.com>):

> In article <0001HW.BF588C380082E318F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I just wanted you to know that I finally was able to access a true 
>> three-paned display in Hogwasher when my brother showed me how.  Evidently 
>> I 
> 
> You *like* 3-paned newsreaders?  :-o  Can't stand 'em, meself.  I like 
> being able to use the WHOLE SCREEN for whatever I'm actually LOOKING AT.
> 
> 

Since that is EXACTLY what I am looking at when I use a three-paned display, 
I prefer it  over floating windows everywhere.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 17:47:23 -0700, G.T. wrote
(in article <11j6k5237cn03b@corp.supernews.com>):

> 
> "Howard S Shubs" <howard@shubs.net> wrote in message
> news:howard-2CA0B3.19424422092005@news.supernews.com...
>> In article <0001HW.BF588C380082E318F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I just wanted you to know that I finally was able to access a true
>>> three-paned display in Hogwasher when my brother showed me how.
> Evidently I
>> 
>> You *like* 3-paned newsreaders?  :-o  Can't stand 'em, meself.  I like
>> being able to use the WHOLE SCREEN for whatever I'm actually LOOKING AT.
>> 
> 
> You need ALL OF A 23" SCREEN to read 3 sentences?
> 
> Greg
> 
> 
> 

I do MUCH more than "read three sentences" while I am looking at the screen, 
Greg.  I'm sorry your attention-area is so small.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

In article <0001HW.BF5B082B0024A401F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Thanks.  I sent a support request to Hogwasher, and they told me the 
> same thing.  However, they also gave me a work-around whereby I am 
> now able to access the Help files (but sadly, still not from within 
> Hogwasher itself, since I am still getting a blank search dialog 
> which brings up nothing when using the Menu-bar option).  
> 
> I must access them directly from the Hogwasher help folder using an 
> external viewer ("Help Viewer") from my Applications folder.  This 
> defeats the very purpose of even having a "Help" option on the 
> Menubar.

If you were able to access Hogwasher's help file from within Hogwasher, 
it would have launched Help Viewer anyway.

> I have been reading about Thoth a little.  It will be my next trial.  
> Would you happen to know the developer's URL?  I really would want to 
> get the latest iteration of the product usable under Tiger..,

It is no longer available; the developer stopped work on it and pulled 
it off the market.

Try MT Newswatcher.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <0001HW.BF5AFA5D002167A4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> As far as the dusty-old Usenet conventions are concerned, they are NOT being 
> used because many people don't  WANT to use bold, underlined, or italic 
> formatting, but because VERY FEW Usenet clients ALLOW it, because of the Unix 
> Nazis who control most Usenet servers.  And MOSTLY because "thats the way its 
> always been done, and if I do it that way, I won't be shut out of the 
> 'crowd'."  After all, who wants to lose his or her "fair-weather" friends?  

You are either a troll or not to bright.

> Evidently not most of the Mac users I've seen so far.  They all seem to crush 
> together like bleating sheep who've smelt a wolf ANYTIME something "novel" 
> comes to their attention, and strike out viciously at ANYONE (friend or foe) 
> who expresses a contrary position, or accomplishes something just as well, or 
> differently, than they do.  If this is the result of following their Guru, 
> Mr. Jobs, I really feel sorry for them, since they now have little real 
> humanity left inside.
> 
> I certainly don't want the majority of Mac users I've seen so far as my 
> friends.  Man, they would be worse than my worst enemies even as "friends"!

Yep. It's a troll..........

-- 
Charles

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:39:21 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5AEB69001DE682F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> In addition, they bloat the Usenet client aspect 
> unnecessarily

Ah ah, I like this: you talk about 'bloat' of usenet clients but go on 
advocating HTML and RTF messaging...kind of contradictory attitude, isn't 
it?!?

Paolo

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:42:12 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF59C4C400CC24B1F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Maybe the Usenet needs to grow up 
> a little, and enter the 21st century

What has the 21st century to do with efficiency?

Paolo

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:59:08 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5AD3EC00186523F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> But I assure you, Apple cannot remain in its little bubble forever. It will 
> catch up with you one day, because the more Macs are sold, the more they will 

> become the targets of virus writers everywhere.

What has this anything to do with discussing the pros and cons of HTML in 
usenet messages? Why are changing the subject every two or three posts? Have 
you not got anything else to do in your life?
This must be the most pointless usenet thread I have seen easily since 1989.

Paolo

On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:38:59 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5999D300C21433F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> I'm used to higher bandwidth content.

So you don't care about the millions of other people who don't have 
broadband? I did not know usenet was exclusively for you.

Paolo

-- 
"If Bill Gates is worth 40 billion dollars for instructing
computers in carrying out pre-determined tasks, how much
should be a teacher worth, for educating our children?"

In article <0001HW.BF5AFA5D002167A4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Is that so?  Then why am I being criticized in these groups for using CAPS 
> for exactly that purpose?

P'raps because some people feel you over use them.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

In article <0001HW.BF5B08C20024C73FF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
 Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Since that is EXACTLY what I am looking at when I use a three-paned display, 
> I prefer it  over floating windows everywhere.

Who said anything about floating windows anywhere?  You may be confusing 
a few things.  A floating window appears above everything else, always.  
A regular window doesn't float like that.

Anyway, that's your preference.  You and I won't be agreeing as to which 
software is the Good Stuff.

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> In article <michelle-A88648.10225124092005@news.west.cox.net>,
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > Truth according to the right-wing educator who was regurgitating their
> > version of fictional pap.
> 
> Doesn't require that, Michelle.  There are other axies of political 
> thought.  The point is that if he believes he was taught the "truth",
> he's living in a dream world.

A Creationist or "Intelligent Design" world?
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Lars Farm <see.bottom.of.page.for.lars@farm.se> wrote:

> I like it the way MacSOUP does it. To each his own. It would probably be
> semitrivial to add a "hide tree" command...

It can be done. Mark the newsgroup, type cmd-I, and select "Hide thread
diagram" or whatevet it says. I'm using a Danish MacSOUP.

But I simply don't see why you should hide this diagram.

> Please note that MacSOUP uses proper threading in other ways than to
> provide a visual map of how the discussion develops. It is also the
> foundation for the very useful filtering mechanisms "kill/tag
> subthread". Once someone mentions the unmentionable you know that every
> reply from here on out is without interest. You hit '-' to prune the
> subthread with every future response and can continue reading the still
> healthy parts of the thread. This requires proper threading. It can not
> be done using subjects only.

Correctly.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> In article <0001HW.BF5AFA5D002167A4F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
>  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
> > Is that so?  Then why am I being criticized in these groups for using CAPS
> > for exactly that purpose?
> 
> P'raps because some people feel you over use them.

Yes. Occasionally though capitals are usable, especially in compound
words. Well, unlike other languages English hasn't got that many
compounds. So in English you could just emphasize that "high schools"
are /schools/ by writing, eh, /schols/. In other languages you would
have to write something like underSKOLE {primary /school/}, mellemSKOLE
{middle /school/} and gymnasieSKOLE {upper grammar /school/, in the UK
meaning of the term, in Denmark for the brightest kids aged 16-19; could
also be called 3-year Sixth Form Colleges}.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I just don't like Hogwasher's "virtual groups". 

I simply don't know what Hogwasher means with "virtual groups". I'd
simply use it to fusion some groups {like a mac group and a mac
sale-and-purchase group} and fission other groups based on subject.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

Usuually, when I want to watch a thread, I just remember what thread I
want to watch, and read it again the next time I see it.  I've not
found any newsgroups that have so many threads that I can't easily
remember which ones I'm interested in.  Thus, for me, Usenet would be
easily readable with even the most primitive newsreader.

So you must have found some treasure trove of Usenet with a vast
quantity of messages that are still worth reading.  Please let us know,
I'm very intrigued by the idea of a high-traffic newsgroup that's not
overrun by spam.

-- 
Jerry Kindall, Seattle, WA                <http://www.jerrykindall.com/>

        Send only plain text messages under 32K to the Reply-To address.
        This mailbox is filtered aggressively to thwart spam and viruses.

In article <0001HW.BF5ACB66001665BEF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:49:30 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote
> (in article <michelle-124F91.15493023092005@news.west.cox.net>):
> 
> > In article <0001HW.BF59BC6200CA2DDDF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>,
> >  Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>> http://www.myetv.org/television/productions/moral_courage/pdf/Rescue
> >>> %20i n%20Scandinavia.pdf
> >> 
> >> Since my current Usenet client (Hogwasher 4.22) refuses to allow me 
> >> to launch that link from within my Internet Browser (Firefox 1.5b for 
> >> OSX), I guess I will have to go through the tedious process of 
> >> copying and pasting it into Firefox before I can read it.  Such would 
> >> NOT be the case in ANY Windows Usenet client, for all of Windows' 
> >> "lameness".
> > 
> > Why does it refuse to launch the link?  I can do it with Newswatcher.  
> > (Because it wasn't enclosed in angle brackets, though, I had to select 
> > the entire URL and then command-click it.  If it had the brackets, I 
> > could have command-clicked it without selecting it first.)
> > 
> > 
> 
> There is no need to "command-click" an URL in Windows.  Just click (or 
> double-click) on it.   There is also no need to enclose URLs in 
> angle-brackets, either, since the majority of Windows Usenet clients can 
> easily discriminate an URL from the text surrounding it.

If a Windows Usenet client sees a URL like http://www.example.com, how
in the world does it know that the comma is not part of the URL?

Simple: it can't.  So it either decides that URLs can't end with commas
or it decides that commas can be part of URLs.  No matter what it
decides it will sometimes be wrong.

What if a URL is broken across multiple lines, as is inevitable when
posting a long URL to Usenet, which requires hard line breaks?  How
does a Windows newsreader magically know that the second line is part
of the URL?

Mac newsreaders, like Windows newsreaders, do the best they can in
making URLs clickable in Usenet messages.  Like Windows newsreaders,
they are not psychic.  I think you will find that Mac newsreaders do no
better or no worse than Windows newsreaders.  You use angle brackets
when posting URLs on Usenet to make your intent perfectly clear for
users of all newsreaders.  Windows newsreaders support the convention
as well.

-- 
Jerry Kindall, Seattle, WA                <http://www.jerrykindall.com/>

        Send only plain text messages under 32K to the Reply-To address.
        This mailbox is filtered aggressively to thwart spam and viruses.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:22:46 -0500, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5ACB66001665BEF0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> There is no need to "command-click" an URL in Windows.  Just click (or 
> double-click) on it.   There is also no need to enclose URLs in 
> angle-brackets, either, since the majority of Windows Usenet clients can 
> easily discriminate an URL from the text surrounding it.

And what happens if the URL contains a blank? Such, although not recommend, 
is quite legitimate. The purpose of embracing the URL with angle brackets is 
to put a non-ambiguous boundary around a URL so that characters in the URL 
are not confused with those in the surrounding text. In short, those brackets 
are good net manners.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> And what happens if the URL contains a blank? Such, although not recommend,
> is quite legitimate. The purpose of embracing the URL with angle brackets is
> to put a non-ambiguous boundary around a URL so that characters in the URL
> are not confused with those in the surrounding text. In short, those brackets
> are good net manners.

And everybody can see that:

2 < 5 > 3,

contains an URL?
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 06:35:32 -0500, Per R�nne wrote
(in article <1h3g5k9.uue3z2pua5stN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>):

> And everybody can see that:
> 
> 2 < 5 > 3,
> 
> contains an URL?

Usually the containing message suggests whether or not the < and > are 
embracing a URL. If an attempt is made to link to what is between those 
brackets, the browser typically employs a sequence of embellishments, such as 
prefixing with www and a period or such as suffixing with a dot and com, so 
that perhaps the incomplete URL can be made into a complete one. Although 
this technique often produces the desired result, surprises can indeed 
result!

My guess is that the above would first be tried as

http://www.%205%20.com

and if that fails as

http://www.%205%20.org

and so on,

where the %20 is the character "space" is expressed within a URL.

-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

In article <1h3g5k9.uue3z2pua5stN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> > And what happens if the URL contains a blank? Such, although not 
> > recommend, is quite legitimate. The purpose of embracing the URL 
> > with angle brackets is to put a non-ambiguous boundary around a URL 
> > so that characters in the URL are not confused with those in the 
> > surrounding text. In short, those brackets are good net manners.
> 
> And everybody can see that:
> 
> 2 < 5 > 3,
> 
> contains an URL?

The brackets don't define the URL; they delineate it.  The software 
looks for other textual items, and the user still has to recognize and 
click on it.

http://www.michelle steiner.org

<http://www.michelle steiner.org>

www.michelle steiner.org

<www.michelle steiner.org>

2 < 5 > 3

Using MT Newswatcher

If you click (or command click, depending on the software) before the 
space on the first URL, you get an error (Safari can't find the server 
www.michelle). If you click after the space, MTNW can't process it and 
beeps at you.

If you click before the space on the second URL, you would wind up at 
the URL www.michelle steiner.org if such a URL existed.  After the 
space, a beep.

Third URL gives the same results as the first URL.

Fourth URL beeps before or after the space.  (Without the HTTP://, it 
looks for the closing angle up to the space; not finding it, it 
concludes that it's not a URL.)

Fifth "URL" gives the same results as the fourth.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <1h3fkkj.1j8i2kjn0x9dsN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>,
 spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) wrote:

> A Creationist or "Intelligent Design" world?

Sounds like a nightmare, rather than a dream world. :-D

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> http://www.michelle steiner.org
> 
> <http://www.michelle steiner.org>
> 
> www.michelle steiner.org
> 
> <www.michelle steiner.org>
> 
> 2 < 5 > 3
> 
> Using MT Newswatcher
> 
> If you click (or command click, depending on the software) before the
> space on the first URL, you get an error (Safari can't find the server
> www.michelle). If you click after the space, MTNW can't process it and
> beeps at you.
> 
> If you click before the space on the second URL, you would wind up at
> the URL www.michelle steiner.org if such a URL existed.  After the 
> space, a beep.
> 
> Third URL gives the same results as the first URL.
> 
> Fourth URL beeps before or after the space.  (Without the HTTP://, it
> looks for the closing angle up to the space; not finding it, it 
> concludes that it's not a URL.)
> 
> Fifth "URL" gives the same results as the fourth.

Well, my MacSOUP tries to start "Unison for the first time" - a
newsreader a have had installed but never use.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:45:52 -0500, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-8CF91B.06455225092005@news.west.cox.net>):

[commenting on various URL attempts]

Following are the results for the same URLs when command-clicked upon in 
Hogwasher 4.2. It seems apparent that Hogwasher is using the angle brackets 
as a clue for the determination of the extent of a URL. 

> http://www.michelle steiner.org

On text before embedded space: http://www.michelle/
On embedded space: http://www.michelle/
On text after embedded space: text just highlighted

> <http://www.michelle steiner.org>

On text before embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/
On embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/
On text after embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/

> www.michelle steiner.org

On text before embedded space: http://www.michelle/
On embedded space: http://www.michelle/
On text after embedded space: text just highlighted

> <www.michelle steiner.org>

On text before embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/
On embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/
On text after embedded space: http://www.michelle%20steiner.org/
 
> 2 < 5 > 3

On leading bracket or space: < 5 > highlighted
On 5: 5 highlighted
On trailing space or bracket: < 5 > highlighted


-- 
James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

In <1h3cw8l.1ft72ex15xovnkN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, on 09/23/2005
   at 07:32 PM, spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) said:

>I don't even think MacSOUP allows for the use of anything other than
>octets greater than FF if European characters are to be used in
>names.

ROTF,LMAO. Get a better calculator.

>BTW, the author of MacSOUP is an Austrian PhD in mathematics and
>computer science. Stefan Haller.

Yes, and presumably he knows the difference between 7F and FF. You've
been around long enough that you should have learned it as well.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT  <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action.  I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.  Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me.  Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org

In <1h3cxp1.1172klhkshtvzN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, on 09/23/2005
   at 07:54 PM, spam@RQNNE.invalid (Per R�nne) said:

>Everything forgiven. I think it is the first time I've experienced
>anybody quarreling about the use of non-ascii chars in /names/.

Well, AC may have been quarrelling with non-ascii chars in names, but
I was only quarreling with non-ASCII octets in /headers/. I have no
objection to the use of RFC 2047 to encode non-ASCII characters in
headers, at least until such time as a new RFC provides a better
mechanism.

>BTW, it had been good if it had been the Chinese that had invented
>the internet - no char problems ...

Alas, that is an unduly optimistic assumption. Chances are that there
would still have been a Tower of Babel just for the Asian languages,
never mind the others.

-- 
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT  <http://patriot.net/~shmuel>

Unsolicited bulk E-mail subject to legal action.  I reserve the
right to publicly post or ridicule any abusive E-mail.  Reply to
domain Patriot dot net user shmuel+news to contact me.  Do not
reply to spamtrap@library.lspace.org

* Alan Connor wrote in news.software.readers:
> On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, "Per R�nne" wrote:
><body not downloaded>

> Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
> your headers. It screws up all sorts of software.

> I can't search your posting history at Google Groups. 

You cant, but the rest of have no problem, fix your broken script.

> I can't
> score your posts on the From header with the latest build of
> slrn-slrnpull, one of the best newsreaders in the existence.

Because you are too stoopid to figure it out.

> That means I don't read your posts, or any responses to them.

The above is an obvious lie, no need to address it further.

> Apparently, you think that I have some obligation to do so.

You don't, but you do it anyway.

> Wrong. 

> Having someone read your posts is a privelege, not a right.

Having you read them is a nightmare, nothing more.

> Now why don't you just grow the fuck up and killfile me.

> At least you _can_ killfile me, because I don't fuck around
> with my headers like a dipshit windoze-weenie troll.

Do we need to post examples of the contrary?

> Do you honestly think that having some weird character in
> your name impresses people?

Perhaps the most ignorant statement you've ever made.

> Don't you understand that idiots can't operate computers?

Again, no need to discuss this one, you've proven it wrong in your post.

> (I have slrn-slrnpull configured to only bring down the headers
> unless I specifically tell it to do otherwise.)

How is this relevant?

-- 
David
A physicist is an atom's way of knowing about atoms.
		-- George Wald

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:28:44 GMT, SINNER
<99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid> wrote in news.software.readers:

> * Alan Connor wrote in news.software.readers:
>> On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, "Per R�nne" wrote:
>> <body not downloaded>
>
>> Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
>> your headers. It screws up all sorts of software.
>
>> I can't search your posting history at Google Groups. 
>
> You cant, but the rest of have no problem, fix your broken script.

This might interest you:

Message-ID: <slrndj5an7.952.pjr@nntp.petitmorte.net>

PJR :-)
-- 
alt.usenet.kooks award-winners and FAQ:
<http://www.insurgent.org/~kook-faq/>

On news.software.readers, in <2anj03xhrb.ln2@news.gates-of-hell.com>, "SINNER" wrote:
<body not downloaded>

I can well imagine what you have said here. Shit-mouthed punks
who run around the Usenet harassing people because they are
bored are incredibly predictable.

That's why I don't read your shit any more, and I'm sure you
are counting upon the fact that most people don't know that YOU
know I don't read your shit any more.

Don't like what I have to say, little boy?

Too bad. There's nothing you can do about it.

You can't even make me read your shit.

All you can do is run your PUNK mouth, which any stupid little
kid with his Mommy's computer can do.

Knock yourself out. I hope you get your (very tiny) rocks
off doing it.

Apparently, you don't have any other pleasures, so I'll not
begudge you this one.

Like the dickless little creep you are, you replied to a 
cross-posted article with all but one of the groups
(news.software.readers) removed.

I've re-instated the others. Anyone who is feeling bored and
masochistic enough to want to read your juvenile shit can look it
up on GG.

http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search

Here's the MID to your other response to me. I didn't download
the body of that post either, of course:

<9lnj03xhrb.ln2@news.gates-of-hell.com>

What a fucking CLOWN! "gates-of-hell" my ass. You are just a
snivelling punk with a big mouth and too much time on his
hands.

SINNER
Results 1 - 100 of 5,200 posts in the last year
      1 alt.comp.os.linux
     13 alt.games.mame
      1 alt.music.michael-jackson
      5 alt.os.linux
      5 alt.os.linux.mandrake
      1 alt.pets.dogs.sharpei
      4 alt.tv.american-idol
      7 alt.video.ptv.tivo
     19 alt.windows-xp
      3 cn.bbs.soc.market.book
      1 comp.os.linux
      2 comp.os.linux.misc
      1 comp.unix.shell
      2 dfw.forsale
      1 dfw.test
      1 es.comp.os.linux.instalacion
      2 es.comp.os.linux.misc
      1 es.misc.anuncios.compra-venta
      2 es.rec.musica.alternativas
      1 microsoft.public.data.ado.rds
      1 microsoft.public.xbox
     16 news.software.readers
      2 nl.test
      2 old_friendsx52
      1 rec.music.classical
      2 rec.music.classical.recordings
      1 rec.sport.pro-wrestling
      1 tw.bbs.rec.tv
      1 tw.bbs.talk.feeling

And that's just ONE of his aliases.

Do you know what the proof-positive that you are a PUNK is?

You haven't killfiled me. 

Any GROWNUP who finds someone's articles offensive enough to
be worthy of harsh criticism, over-and-over again, killfiles
that person.

Like I killscored YOU, long ago.

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

* Alan Connor wrote in news.software.readers:

> On news.software.readers, in <2anj03xhrb.ln2@news.gates-of-hell.com>, "SINNER" wrote:
><body not downloaded>

> I can well imagine what you have said here. 

Of course, since you've read it, you don't need much of an imagination.

> Shit-mouthed punks
> who run around the Usenet harassing people because they are
> bored are incredibly predictable.

Yes, we know, we see you do it daily.

> That's why I don't read your shit any more, and I'm sure you
> are counting upon the fact that most people don't know that YOU
> know I don't read your shit any more.

Except you seem to respond to what you don't read, an interesting paradox
you've got there.

> Don't like what I have to say, little boy?

> Too bad. There's nothing you can do about it.

I can do a few things, I can killfile you. If I announce such, you'll
nym shift as you always do just to announce you haven't read my post.

I can ignore you, but lets face it, there is no fun in that.

I could ...

> You can't even make me read your shit.

No need to make you do anything, you do it all without any prodding.

[...]

> Here's the MID to your other response to me. I didn't download
> the body of that post either, of course:

><9lnj03xhrb.ln2@news.gates-of-hell.com>

Which, we all know, you've read as well.

> SINNER
> Results 1 - 100 of 5,200 posts in the last year

Your broken script is not restrictive enough, the results, based on that
post, should be:

Results 1 - 10 of 1,530 from Sep 25, 2004 to Sep 25, 2005  for
author:SINNER author:<99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid>

> And that's just ONE of his aliases.

I don't have another per say, when I post using a win box the addy is a
bit different but its consistent, nym is the same.

> Do you know what the proof-positive that you are a PUNK is?

do tell...

> You haven't killfiled me. 

Neither have you, what does this say about you in your very small world?

> Any GROWNUP who finds someone's articles offensive enough to
> be worthy of harsh criticism, over-and-over again, killfiles
> that person.

I don't find you offensive, just stupid, hypocritical and generally
comical. why would I want to kill file that? You are cheap
entertainment.

> Like I killscored YOU, long ago.

Which has accomplished what exactly?

-- 
David
* Phaedrus wishes he could get a machine that consists of Sparc IO,
  Alpha Processors and sleek design of an SGI
<pp> And intel prices
	-- Seen on #Linux

* Dan D. Dinmont wrote in news.software.readers:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:28:44 GMT, SINNER
><99nesorjd@gates_of_hell.invalid> wrote in news.software.readers:

>> * Alan Connor wrote in news.software.readers:
>>> On news.software.readers, in <1h3dq0v.17pmp291x8qvfuN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, "Per R�nne" wrote:
>>> <body not downloaded>

>>> Listen: You aren't supposed to use non-us-ascii characters in
>>> your headers. It screws up all sorts of software.

>>> I can't search your posting history at Google Groups. 

>> You cant, but the rest of have no problem, fix your broken script.

> This might interest you:

> Message-ID: <slrndj5an7.952.pjr@nntp.petitmorte.net>

Yeah, I know this kook quite well, I was bored ;)

-- 
David
Tu bi or not tu bi 

ELEVEN -- Erguer: ELEVEN at� essa altura 

Between saving the world and having a spot of tea SINNER quipped

> I don't find you offensive, just stupid, hypocritical and generally
> comical. why would I want to kill file that? You are cheap
> entertainment.

Does anyone else's mental picture of Alan posting have him doing it in
your classic Dalek screaming falsetto? 

-- 
rob singers
pull finger to reply
Foemina Erit Ruina Tua

On 26 Sep 2005 01:44:01 GMT, Robert Singers
<rsingers@finger.hotmail.com> wrote in news.software.readers:

> Between saving the world and having a spot of tea SINNER quipped
>
>> I don't find you offensive, just stupid, hypocritical and generally
>> comical. why would I want to kill file that? You are cheap
>> entertainment.
>
> Does anyone else's mental picture of Alan posting have him doing it in
> your classic Dalek screaming falsetto? 

*I* *HAVE* *DOWNLOADED* *ONLY* *THE* HEADERS* *OF *YOUR* *POST*.
*ALL* *NON-ASCII* *POSTERS* *WILL* *BE* *EXTERMINATED*,


PJR :-)
-- 
alt.usenet.kooks award-winners and FAQ:
<http://www.insurgent.org/~kook-faq/>

Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> On news.software.readers, in <2anj03xhrb.ln2@news.gates-of-hell.com>,
> "SINNER" wrote:
> <body not downloaded>

> Don't like what I have to say, little boy?

....

> Like the dickless little creep you are

Oh, how serious ;-(.
-- 
Per Erik R�nne

On news.software.readers, in <1h3hdyi.15nke9w18dprfgN%spam@RQNNE.invalid>, "Per R<non-us-ascii character deleted>nne" wrote:
<body not downloaded>

See? You are just proving that I was right in my initial
assessment: You are basically a troll.

If you weren't, you would have killfiled me long ago.

Like I've killscored you.

Blab away. I couldn't care less. All your trollshit and
a dollar will get you a cheap cup of coffee.

Won't slow _me_ down a bit.

AC

-- 
Homepage: http://home.earthlink.net/~alanconnor/
Fanclub: http://www.pearlgates.net/nanae/kooks/alanconnor.shtml

In article <slrndjesp9.43r.i3x9mdw@b29x3m.invalid>,
 Alan Connor <i3x9mdw@j9n35c.invalid> wrote:

> See? You are just proving that I was right in my initial assessment: 
> You are basically a troll.

LOL; the troll is accusing someone else of being a troll?  You are 
pathetic, boy.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

In article <michelle-82AB2C.21375125092005@news.west.cox.net>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> LOL; the troll is accusing someone else of being a troll?  You are 
> pathetic, boy.

Why not ignore the twit?

-- 
Anthony said:
> A few minutes ago I attempted to give a flying fsck, but the best I
> could do was to watch it skitter across the floor.

* Howard S Shubs wrote in news.software.readers:
> In article <michelle-82AB2C.21375125092005@news.west.cox.net>,
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

>> LOL; the troll is accusing someone else of being a troll?  You are 
>> pathetic, boy.

> Why not ignore the twit?

What fun would that be?

-- 
David
A likely impossibility is always preferable to an unconvincing possibility.
		-- Aristotle

In article <howard-656649.08080526092005@news.supernews.com>,
 Howard S Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> > LOL; the troll is accusing someone else of being a troll?  You are 
> > pathetic, boy.
> 
> Why not ignore the twit?

I'm bored; laid up with a minor injury, and need to kill time.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Impeach the son of a Bush.

On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:15:01 -0700, Joseph wrote
(in article <oriaj1tu6pju8n9cin2ae5q7icisnf5lav@4ax.com>):

> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:39:15 -0700, Donald McDaniel
> <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
>> I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when huge 
>> amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich Text at very 
>> low 
>> cost, along with the necessary software to take advantage of that 
>> bandwidth.  
>> I guarantee you, I'm not going to 
> 
> You somehow think that dressing up boring text with all sorts of crap
> like bolding, colours and all that other crap somehow makes your
> message "better."  I guarantee you that if your message is crap
> dressing it up will only make it look like dressed up crap.  There's a
> really good reason people use plain text when they come to public
> forums such as usenet.  Plain text is 100% guaranteed to let
> *everyone* see the text whereas using rich text or HTML text may mean
> that someone may not be able to see it properly if you insist on using
> HTML only.  You may think I'm a Luddite but I use a three year old
> version of Agent for my NNTP client and am quite happy that you cannot
> display HTML or other rich text crap.  Most people don't have a clue
> how to use formatting judiciously anyway.
> - -
>            

That's one of the failures of Agent, no matter which iteration it is.  
However, I simply ignored it when I used Agent. 

Not using HTML is your choice. So?

However, it should be a choice in Usenet clients, since more and more are 
using HTML or Rich Text.

I guess you just haven't noticed.  Maybe you should get in a time machine, 
and come here to the 21st Century.

Anyway, the point is rather useless, since every Mac client I've found so far 
doesn't offer the option.

However, as a proponent of HTML and Richtext, I will continue my lobbying 
efforts.  I'm not easily disappointed or persuaded from a position I hold 
dearly.


-- 
Donald L McDaniel
===========================================================================

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:42:53 -0700, Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> Not using HTML is your choice. So?
> However, it should be a choice in Usenet clients, since more and more are 
> using HTML or Rich Text.

More and more people throw trash out their cars while driving.  Doesn't
mean that it's something that should be encouraged.

> I guess you just haven't noticed.  Maybe you should get in a time machine, 
> and come here to the 21st Century.

HTML is great for webpages.  It's completely useless at best for email
and usenet postings.  Only two types of messages come formatted in HTML
- spam, and "glurge" - that forwarded crap that Aunt Tillie just saw for
  the first time and is "forwarding to everyone in her address book
because it said so".

> Anyway, the point is rather useless, since every Mac client I've found so far 
> doesn't offer the option.

Ah, that should be some sort of a clue there.

> However, as a proponent of HTML and Richtext, I will continue my lobbying 
> efforts.  I'm not easily disappointed or persuaded from a position I hold 
> dearly.

Perhaps you can explain how adding a bunch of tags and visual noise
makes your message any more useful or readable.  As I see it, wrapping
your message in a bunch of visual cruft to wade through just makes it
easier to miss/ignore.  And as far as email, html encoded email gets -2
points assigned to it automatically in the 'probably spam' filter,
leaving only 2 more hits before it is silently ignored.

HTML is great for the web.  Usenet and email are not websites.

Dave Hinz

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:53 +0100, Donald McDaniel wrote
(in article <0001HW.BF5D812D00077922F0407550@news20.forteinc.com>):

> Maybe you should get in a time machine, 
> and come here to the 21st Century.

You keep ignoring my question. What has the 21st Century to do with 
efficiency of the medium? Usenet is about words. Apart from being able to use 
styled text for emphasis (which can be achieved in alternative ways) why 
would we want some format that adds lots more redundant information to every 
and each post?
RTF and HTML-rich emails have nothing to do with 21st Century and progress. 
It's a myth you are trying to perpetuate.

Paolo 

-- 
Paolo G. Cordone
Associate Lecturer, Faculties of Arts and Technology
The Open University
http://www.paolo.rhumbo.com

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:53:38 +0100, Dave Hinz wrote
(in article <3pqqt2Fbj17jU1@individual.net>):

> Perhaps you can explain how adding a bunch of tags and visual noise
> makes your message any more useful or readable.

What, Dave, you don't know? It's the 21st Century thingy... ;-)

Paolo

-- 
"vina parant animum veneri, nisi plurima sumas"
   --Ovid

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:42:58 +0100, Paolo Cordone <pamisolo@oceanfree.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:53:38 +0100, Dave Hinz wrote
> (in article <3pqqt2Fbj17jU1@individual.net>):
>
>> Perhaps you can explain how adding a bunch of tags and visual noise
>> makes your message any more useful or readable.
>
> What, Dave, you don't know? It's the 21st Century thingy... ;-)

I must have missed the memo.  Maybe it was sent in HTML and ended up in
my spam trap?

Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:

> I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when huge
> amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich Text at very low
> cost,

That may be true where you are, but it is not true where I am.  I'm not
going to pay a large premium so I can see HTML that usually doesn't add
to the conversation.  Instead, I just don't download messages with the
HTML formatting.

-- 
Kathy - read reviews of other newsgroups in news:news.groups.reviews
help for new users at <http://www.aptalaska.net/~kmorgan/>
Good Net Keeping Seal of Approval at <http://www.gnksa.org/>

Michelle Steiner wrote:
> You did not have italics and bold face type with typewriters.

Not exactly true.  Some manual typewriters and a few electrics
could be purchased with special fonts that allowed italic or
bold or all capitals regardless of shift key position.

And the IBM Selectric, available from about the mid-1960s,
had a replaceable ball print head, and by swaping print heads
you could get not merely italics,bold, subscripts, superscripts,
Greek letters, and language-specific character sets such as
Cyrillic (though not Chinese characters -- I think
Japanese phonetic symbols were available) all on the same
machine!

And correction ribbons allowed you to backspace and "erase"
typos!  Them were the days.  Just hope they do not come back.

Cheers!

jim b.

-- 
Unix is not user-unfriendly; it merely
      expects users to be computer-friendly.

In article <1h3jfen.1ryqt0it5jcvfN%kmorgan@spamcop.net>, Kathy Morgan
<kmorgan@spamcop.net> wrote:

> Donald McDaniel <invalid@invalid.com> wrote:
> 
> > I see absolutely NO need for hanging on to outdated conventions, when huge
> > amounts of bandwidth are now widely available for using Rich Text at very
> > low
> > cost,

> That may be true where you are, but it is not true where I am.  I'm not
> going to pay a large premium so I can see HTML that usually doesn't add
> to the conversation.  Instead, I just don't download messages with the
> HTML formatting.

I second that. In 99% of the time, HTML and Rich Text contents adds
nothing in a quick paced text discussion. And in 95% of that 1%, there
are already convenient ASCII based solutions to achieve a similar
effect.

In my experience, HTML and Rich Text messages are only good to
illustrate the power of Viagra ie. Spam messages.

--