I sent an email to Brian Clark asking how I could pay for this new
release. This is his reply:


I'm sorry, but there's really no way to do this.

As noted on the website, and as I tried to explain to everyone who
wrote to
me since last April when I tried to get Thoth going again, I really
hoped
to be able to resume developing and supporting Thoth. But when I asked
people to email me saying if they'd be willing to pay for the next new
version of Thoth, I got too few replies.

So I could not bring back Thoth, I haven't setup my own real website
capable of hosting Thoth downloads, I don't have a payment system, and I
can't afford to keep releasing new versions of Thoth. I released Thoth
1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.

In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:

> I sent an email to Brian Clark asking how I could pay for this new
> release. This is his reply:
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but there's really no way to do this.
> 
> As noted on the website, and as I tried to explain to everyone who
> wrote to
> me since last April when I tried to get Thoth going again, I really
> hoped
> to be able to resume developing and supporting Thoth. But when I asked
> people to email me saying if they'd be willing to pay for the next new
> version of Thoth, I got too few replies.
> 
> So I could not bring back Thoth, I haven't setup my own real website
> capable of hosting Thoth downloads, I don't have a payment system, and I
> can't afford to keep releasing new versions of Thoth. I released Thoth
> 1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.

I'm not encouraging you to do this, but finding valid serial numbers
for pretty much any software is a relatively trivial exercise.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:31:48 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
(in article <030820060831487078%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>):

[in the context of downloading and using Thoth 1.8..0]

> I'm not encouraging you to do this, but finding valid serial numbers for 
> pretty much any software is a relatively trivial exercise.

I'll add that it is the misuse of serial numbers that leads to such as the 
"authentication" process used by Adobe for it's Creative Suite. That there 
are so many that will willingly pirate software is a sad state of affairs.

-- 
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com

In article <030820060831487078%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>, Dave
Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
> Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:
> 
> > I sent an email to Brian Clark asking how I could pay for this new
> > release. This is his reply:
> > 
> > 
> > I'm sorry, but there's really no way to do this.
> > 
> > As noted on the website, and as I tried to explain to everyone who
> > wrote to
> > me since last April when I tried to get Thoth going again, I really
> > hoped
> > to be able to resume developing and supporting Thoth. But when I asked
> > people to email me saying if they'd be willing to pay for the next new
> > version of Thoth, I got too few replies.
> > 
> > So I could not bring back Thoth, I haven't setup my own real website
> > capable of hosting Thoth downloads, I don't have a payment system, and I
> > can't afford to keep releasing new versions of Thoth. I released Thoth
> > 1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.
> 
> I'm not encouraging you to do this, but finding valid serial numbers
> for pretty much any software is a relatively trivial exercise.


I don't want to pirate Thoth. I would like to buy a license for version
1.8.0, but considering Brian's reply, there is no way to pay for this
updated version.
Too bad...

In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
 Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:

> I sent an email to Brian Clark asking how I could pay for this new
> release. This is his reply:
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but there's really no way to do this.
> 
> As noted on the website, and as I tried to explain to everyone who
> wrote to
> me since last April when I tried to get Thoth going again, I really
> hoped
> to be able to resume developing and supporting Thoth. But when I asked
> people to email me saying if they'd be willing to pay for the next new
> version of Thoth, I got too few replies.

Translation:  I've burned so many people so many times in the past by 
acting like a big baby/spoiled brat, that no one is interested in Thoth 
- or me - any longer.    Plus, there are so many good, free news readers 
out there - that are developed/maintained by adults - that, again, no 
one is interested in me or Thoth any longer.

Mike

In article <no-49688B.11393503082006@news.supernews.com>,
 Mike <no@where.man> wrote:

> In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
>  Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:
> 
> > I sent an email to Brian Clark asking how I could pay for this new
> > release. This is his reply:
> > 
> > 
> > I'm sorry, but there's really no way to do this.
> > 
> > As noted on the website, and as I tried to explain to everyone who
> > wrote to
> > me since last April when I tried to get Thoth going again, I really
> > hoped
> > to be able to resume developing and supporting Thoth. But when I asked
> > people to email me saying if they'd be willing to pay for the next new
> > version of Thoth, I got too few replies.
> 
> Translation:  I've burned so many people so many times in the past by 
> acting like a big baby/spoiled brat, that no one is interested in Thoth 
> - or me - any longer.


Wrong.


> Plus, there are so many good, free news readers 
> out there - that are developed/maintained by adults - that, again, no 
> one is interested in me or Thoth any longer.


Wrong.

In article <0001HW.C0F77791002C6EE5F0284500@news.supernews.com>,
TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 09:31:48 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote
> (in article <030820060831487078%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>):
> 
> [in the context of downloading and using Thoth 1.8..0]
> 
> > I'm not encouraging you to do this, but finding valid serial numbers for 
> > pretty much any software is a relatively trivial exercise.
> 
> I'll add that it is the misuse of serial numbers that leads to such as the 
> "authentication" process used by Adobe for it's Creative Suite. That there 
> are so many that will willingly pirate software is a sad state of affairs.

I agree. There is a distinction to be made, however, between pirating
software and finding a way to run software that has been removed from
the market.

By analogy (and stretching it a fair bit) if I have an antique vehicle
that is driveable except for one part of the engine, and that part is
not available from the manufacturer, it's reasonable for me to
manufacture the part myself in order to run the car.

In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
 Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:

> I
> can't afford to keep releasing new versions of Thoth

(Disclaimer: I don't know much about Thoth, but I remember its 
availability has been on and off during the last few years.)

Is making it open source such a bad idea? I understand that he considers 
it his pet software, but this looks like he wants to get rich from it. 
It just doesn't work like that as far as I know, little developers only 
manage to make pocket money at most. While some extra income doesn't 
hurt, at this point he might just release it as open source to avoid 
seeing the project die completely.

And open source stuff can give a damn high of adrenaline when you 
realise you're building something with people from far away, free, where 
everyone is moved by the idea of making something better and share it 
with the world. Might sound utopistic, but I love it... even though I 
know the world just doesn't work like that: we are Mac users here, so we 
know very well that proprietary software isn't always a bad thing.


Just my two cents
-- 
Jollino

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:01:55 -0500, Dave Balderstone wrote (in article 
<030820061201553478%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca>): 

[responding to my post in this thread regarding pirated softwaare] 

> I agree. There is a distinction to be made, however, between pirating 
> software and finding a way to run software that has been removed from the 
> market. 

Even though Brian Clark (I hope I have that name correct) has withdrawn Thoth 
from the market I would assume that he still can dictate that its usage can 
be limited to license holders. 

> By analogy (and stretching it a fair bit) if I have an antique vehicle 
> that is driveable except for one part of the engine, and that part is not 
> available from the manufacturer, it's reasonable for me to manufacture the 
> part myself in order to run the car. 

I'm going to say that I think that analogy stretch was just a bit too far!   
:-) 

-- 
James Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com

In article
<jollinofrenoamano-01A9CA.22463303082006@reader1.news.tin.it>, Jollino
<jollinofrenoamano@sogno.net> wrote:

> (Disclaimer: I don't know much about Thoth, but I remember its 
> availability has been on and off during the last few years.)
> 
There was an earlier newsreader from the same author (YA-NW) for which
he requested payment for support -- a short-lived, but highly
contentious period. Thoth was released just about coincident with the
"Public Beta" of OS X and, for quite a while, was the only OS X-native
news client. Similarly, it was the first Mac news client to support
yEnc. Thoth was continuously available until February (or maybe March)
of 2004, when the author withdrew it from distribution. Unless you
count the 1.8 update for registered users that was just made available,
that's all the availability volatility that has taken place.

> Is making it open source such a bad idea? I understand that he considers 
> it his pet software, but this looks like he wants to get rich from it. 
> It just doesn't work like that as far as I know, little developers only 
> manage to make pocket money at most. While some extra income doesn't 
> hurt, at this point he might just release it as open source to avoid 
> seeing the project die completely.
> 
I don't know Brian but, as a registered user, I communicated with him
via email for feature implementations and bug reports during Thoth's
availability. My impression is not that he wants "to get rich from it",
only that he wants it to support the costs involved in developing and
maintaining it. With the exception of Lemke (Graphic Converter), I
found him to be the most responsive shareware author in maintaining and
enhancing his product (until he "got fed up" ... "threw a hissy fit and
left" ... or however you want to characterize his withdrawal of the
software from distribution).

> And open source stuff can give a damn high of adrenaline when you 
> realise you're building something with people from far away, free, where 
> everyone is moved by the idea of making something better and share it 
> with the world. Might sound utopistic, but I love it... even though I 
> know the world just doesn't work like that: we are Mac users here, so we 
> know very well that proprietary software isn't always a bad thing.
> 
My perception is that Brian, like a number of software developers with
whom I've worked over the years (over 30 years now, on a variety of
platforms) is heavily invested emotionally in his "baby." I've put
various software out in the public domain --going to back before the
term "open source" became vogue. Yes, there is a tremendous
satisfaction in seeing others build upon your work, but there is also a
sense of loss -- your baby is no longer your own. Some people can't
deal with that sense of loss as well as others.
> 
> Just my two cents

and here's my two bits...

Regardless of his real or perceived personality quirks, BC provided a
fine product at a reasonable price. He supported it and enhanced it so
well that it is, two and a half years after its withdrawal from the
market, still the news client of choice for "power users" on the Mac
platform. I've tried a lot of other clients and, for my purposes,
nothing else comes close on the Mac. I will continue trying out new
client releases in hopes that someone will provide a sufficient product
with a future, but until then I'll stick with my orphan and make sure
that I have at least one PPC Mac on which to run it (I have four Macs
and two Wintels, but the Wintels are specific-purpose and don't get
connected to the Internet).

-- 
Spenser

In article <0001HW.C0F7D131000B0709F0284500@news.supernews.com>,
TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> Even though Brian Clark (I hope I have that name correct) has withdrawn Thoth 
> from the market I would assume that he still can dictate that its usage can 
> be limited to license holders. 

What's interesting is that in the EULA shipped with Thoth he says that
as shareware I am obliged to pay for it if I use it past 30 days. (for
the record, I've paid).

"Thoth is a shareware program. That means you have to pay for it if you
continue to use it after an initial trial period."

He's since withdrawn the ability for someone to pay for Thoth.

Does that void the EULA? IANAL, but it seems to me that it could.

Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_Sbalderstone.ca> wrote:

> What's interesting is that in the EULA shipped with Thoth he says that
> as shareware I am obliged to pay for it if I use it past 30 days. (for
> the record, I've paid).
> 
> "Thoth is a shareware program. That means you have to pay for it if you
> continue to use it after an initial trial period."
> 
> He's since withdrawn the ability for someone to pay for Thoth.
> 
> Does that void the EULA? IANAL, but it seems to me that it could.

No, the author is not required to make licenses available in order to
have an enforceable copyright claim. He'd just have a hard time proving
that he was damaged financially. Using Thoth without a license is
arguably more damaging to the publishers of current, competitive news
readers than it is to Brian Clark. In any case, it hardly compares to
the unlicensed use of a current version of Photoshop -- just as an
example. 

In article <030820061626533167%jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be>,
 Jan Heyvaerts <jan.heyvaertsVERWIJDERDIT@edpnet.be> wrote:

> I released Thoth
> 1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.

Really?  I'm an existing customer, and haven't heard one word about 
getting an updated copy of it.  And my e-mail address has been the same 
one I've had for well over a decade.

In article <garner-1D29FB.11491804082006@news-server.nycap.rr.com>,
 Garner Miller <garner@netstreet.net> wrote:

> > I released Thoth
> > 1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.
> 
> Really?  I'm an existing customer, and haven't heard one word about 
> getting an updated copy of it.  And my e-mail address has been the same 
> one I've had for well over a decade.

Ah, nevermind:

http://home.earthlink.net/~thoth-help/thoth.html


Still, an e-mail to the list of registered users would have been nice.  
This is the first I've heard of it.

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 10:59:23 -0500, Garner Miller wrote
(in article <garner-EE51A1.11590204082006@news-server.nycap.rr.com>):

> In article <garner-1D29FB.11491804082006@news-server.nycap.rr.com>,
>  Garner Miller <garner@netstreet.net> wrote:
> 
>>> I released Thoth
>>> 1.8.0 for existing customers simply because work on it was completed.
>> 
>> Really?  I'm an existing customer, and haven't heard one word about 
>> getting an updated copy of it.  And my e-mail address has been the same 
>> one I've had for well over a decade.
> 
> Ah, nevermind:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~thoth-help/thoth.html
> 
> 
> Still, an e-mail to the list of registered users would have been nice.  
> This is the first I've heard of it.

I didn't hear either except through a USENET group. Either more of his 
ways" or knowwing there could be server issues he assumed word of mouth would 
suffice and keep traffic to a minimum. Macupdate and Mac Orchard did note it.

-- 

Tim
lance_1012@hotmail.com