f



Is it me or are there many unreliable USB flash drives?

Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.

Some just stopped working and not detected at all by any computers 
(desktops and (laptop/notebook)s and OSes (Linux, Mac OS X, and 
Windows). Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and can't even 
partition and format. Some seen and connected, but can't been fully 
formatted.

What's up? I think I need to go buy new ones soon. What are GOOD 
reliable brands 32+ GB that can handle hot temperatures (feeling them is 
hot due to heavy usages like copying huge files, installing and running 
OSes, etc. for hours), lots of physically moving around, etc.? Is Lexar 
brand any good as shown in 
http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page from the 
local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, 
Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.). Of course they 
must be returnable if the drives die quickly again within return times.
:P

Thank you in advance. :)
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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ANTant
10/17/2016 9:03:03 PM
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On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:03:03 -0500, ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

>Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
>sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
>and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
>10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
>keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
>
<SNIP>

Awhile back, someone recommended a program called USB Flash Drive
Tester, from https://www.vconsole.com/download. I downloaded and
installed it, but I haven't had a reason to use it yet. I'd be curious
to see what it says about some of your devices. Of course, if they can't
be seen, there won't be much to report.

0
Mark
10/18/2016 9:04:53 AM
For your reference, records indicate that 
ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

> Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
> keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.

Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
be would treasure a one year life span.  I think, for the industry, 
flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It doesn’t much matter who 
you go with, they’re all built to be essentially disposable.

That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so 
you’d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you’re seeing failures 
every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in 
whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least 
the warranty runs out.  It’s not a huge expense, so I don’t worry 
too much about it.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


0
Doc
10/18/2016 3:23:28 PM
On 10-18-2016 10:23, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
> whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
> the warranty runs out.  It’s not a huge expense, so I don’t worry
> too much about it.

Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often 
size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.
0
Happy
10/18/2016 5:13:52 PM
Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

> Either I'm having bad luck

Or are mistreating them in some way.

> or USB flash drives suck even with various sizes
> (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names
> (e.g., SanDisk), and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years]
> and Patriot [had it since 10/3/2015]). They don't
> seems like they don't last longer than a year.
> I keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.

I use them a lot, for the torrented movies the neighbours
kids get me to get for them that they pay on their PS3/4
and a set top box and have only ever had the one failure
with one unbranded one what appears to have failed at
the work place of the kids, a nursing home.

> Some just stopped working and not detected at all by any
> computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s and OSes
> (Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows).

That is the result I got with the only one that has failed.
I haven't even bothered to open it up to check how its
failed, whether it is a simple mechanical failure, dry
joint/cracked trace etc or what.

> Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and
> can't even partition and format. Some seen and
> connected, but can't been fully formatted.

> What's up?

Either bad luck or the way you are treating them static wise.

The kids don�t do anything special with them static wise
and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
some heavy furniture in there.

> I think I need to go buy new ones soon. What are GOOD
> reliable brands 32+ GB that can handle hot temperatures

I can't say given that I have had few failures and
don�t even know the brand of the one that did fail
given that its unbranded and marked with the
nursing home label.

> (feeling them is hot due to heavy usages like copying
> huge files, installing and running OSes, etc. for hours),

I don�t do that with these, just put movies on
them tho its clear that the kids do use them
for data like photos and assignments etc.

> lots of physically moving around, etc.?

These get plenty of that, usually in cars but not always.

> Is Lexar brand any good as shown in
> http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page
> from the local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, Best
> Buy, Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.).

Yes, some of the ones I use are Lexars.

> Of course they must be returnable if the drives die
> quickly again within return times. :P

> Thank you in advance. :)

Still smirking. 

0
Rod
10/18/2016 6:09:32 PM
In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> 
> > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
> > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
> 
> Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
> be would treasure a one year life span. 

I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.

A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.

The same goes for USB flash drives. I've seen people treating them
extremely badly.



> I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It 
> doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be essentially 
> disposable.
> 
> That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so 
> you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures 
> every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in 
> whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least 
> the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry 
> too much about it.

USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a limited
lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" much
sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
transport.
https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
0
Your
10/18/2016 8:13:06 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> wrote:
> In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
>> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
>> 
>> > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
>> > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
>> > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
>> > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
>> > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
>> 
>> Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
>> be would treasure a one year life span. 
> 
> I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
> still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
> disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
> the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
> to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.
> 
> A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
> the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
> never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.

I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
well indeed.

> The same goes for USB flash drives. I've seen people treating them
> extremely badly.

I read online once a theory that it's usually the crystal (the
component in the metal can that has wire leads going to it)
that fails. Crystals are used in all sorts of things these days,
so it must be either poor quality, or some aspect of use, that would
make them more susceptable to failure in memory sticks specifically.

Modern thin, card-width, memory sticks seem to show that the
need for the traditionally large crystal package has been overcome.
Perhaps this has improved reliability? In any case, unlike the old
crystals, these modern integrated ones can't be easily replaced by
someone with a soldering iron.

The consequence of the crystal failing would usually be the memory
stick failing to be recognised by any computer. The data could well
be recovered if it were replaced afterwards.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/18/2016 9:15:41 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Mark Perkins <mark@none.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2016 16:03:03 -0500, ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:

> >Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> >sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> >and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> >10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
> >keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
> >
> <SNIP>

> Awhile back, someone recommended a program called USB Flash Drive
> Tester, from https://www.vconsole.com/download. I downloaded and
> installed it, but I haven't had a reason to use it yet. I'd be curious
> to see what it says about some of your devices. Of course, if they can't
> be seen, there won't be much to report.

Here are Flash Drive/Card v1.14 test results on the two recent USB 
flash drives:

One (SP brand) of the 32 GB drives failed in write (reading seems OK): 
00:00:06.83 - -------------------------------- New test process started 
00:00:06.84 - Started "Writing test data" for drive D: 30959MB, "SRT, USB, 1100, ", 512b 
00:00:53.61 - ! Write fatal (3/3) error at LBN = 0 -- The semaphore timeout period has expired. (121.) 
00:01:39.70 - ! Write fatal (3/3) error at LBN = 128 -- The semaphore timeout period has expired. (121.) 
00:02:26.29 - ! Write fatal (3/3) error at LBN = 256 -- The semaphore timeout period has expired. (121.) 
00:03:11.79 - ! Write fatal (3/3) error at LBN = 384 -- The semaphore timeout period has expired. (121.) 
00:03:57.73 - ! Write fatal (3/3) error at LBN = 512 -- The semaphore timeout period has expired. (121.) 
.... 
I guess it ran out of write cycles for being a few years old? It makes 
sense since reformats (quick and full) failed to finish every time now.
:(

The other drive (Patriot brand) failed to do anything since it could not 
be seen even though all OSes can see an USB device. They all can't 
access its datas like partitions. I cannot even repartition and reformat 
it. :(

Both broke when I was trying to install mac OS X v10.12/Sierra onto 
them. I know the new 15" MacBook Pro (Retina; mid-2015) rebooted already 
into them to install.
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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0
ANTant
10/18/2016 9:27:25 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
> On 10-18-2016 10:23, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
> > the warranty runs out.  It???s not a huge expense, so I don???t worry
> > too much about it.

> Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often 
> size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.

How often do you have to do that? I find it annoying this is happening 
so often!
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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0
ANTant
10/18/2016 9:28:08 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> wrote:
> In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> > 
> > > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> > > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> > > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> > > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
> > > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
> > 
> > Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
> > be would treasure a one year life span. 

> I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
> still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
> disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
> the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
> to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.

> A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
> the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
> never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.

> The same goes for USB flash drives. I've seen people treating them
> extremely badly.

Someone told me putting these tiny USB flash drives in my wallets that 
go into my pants' front pockets are breaking them due to stresses. What 
do you thnk of that? I see people having them on keychains and they hit 
tables, desks, etc. hard and loudly a lot! 
 

> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It 
> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be essentially 
> > disposable.
> > 
> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so 
> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures 
> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in 
> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least 
> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry 
> > too much about it.

> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a limited
> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" much
> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
> transport.
> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy

The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12 on 
these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already? I only 
wanted to install and use the OS for quick tests like those bootable 
read only live discs for OSes. :( In the past, I used these USB flsah 
drives to copy all kinds of files (giant sizes too) to use between 
various computers.

I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my 
wallet to carry easily! Argh.
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
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0
ANTant
10/18/2016 9:32:34 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

> > Either I'm having bad luck

> Or are mistreating them in some way.

Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives on 
my side.


> > Some just stopped working and not detected at all by any
> > computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s and OSes
> > (Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows).

> That is the result I got with the only one that has failed.
> I haven't even bothered to open it up to check how its
> failed, whether it is a simple mechanical failure, dry
> joint/cracked trace etc or what.

Their cases are hard to open up! Looking at their USB connectors, they 
look clean and fine to me. No bad odors like burning smell. The only 
thing noticeable is their temperatures are hot after long usages.


> > Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and
> > can't even partition and format. Some seen and
> > connected, but can't been fully formatted.

> > What's up?

> Either bad luck or the way you are treating them static wise.

> The kids don???t do anything special with them static wise
> and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
> at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
> heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
> heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
> I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
> some heavy furniture in there.

No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped 
them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during 
heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet 
temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).


> > lots of physically moving around, etc.?

> These get plenty of that, usually in cars but not always.

Most of the times, the tiny drives are in my wallets to be carried 
where-ever I go. They don't move around much in the crowded tight wallet 
in my front pockets. That should be OK, right? I have seen people put 
them on their keychains and appear to be more abusive since they hit 
desks. tables, etc. but they still work.


> > Is Lexar brand any good as shown in
> > http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page
> > from the local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, Best
> > Buy, Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.).

> Yes, some of the ones I use are Lexars.

Hmm, I might try Lexars next. Or maybe well known brands won't metter to 
me since Sandisk failed for me in the past. :/


> > Of course they must be returnable if the drives die
> > quickly again within return times. :P

> > Thank you in advance. :)

> Still smirking. 

I will always smirk. ;)
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o   o| |
   \ _ /    Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
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0
ANTant
10/18/2016 9:48:50 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> wrote:
> > In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> > <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> For your reference, records indicate that 
> >> ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> >> > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> >> > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> >> > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year. I 
> >> > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
> >> 
> >> Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
> >> be would treasure a one year life span. 
> > 
> > I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
> > still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
> > disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
> > the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
> > to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.
> > 
> > A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
> > the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
> > never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.

> I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
> fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
> served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
> well indeed.

Is this still true for USB flash drives? I was copying HUGE files and 
even installing mac OS Sierra onto these two recent 32 GB USB flash  
drives.
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o   o| |
   \ _ /    Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
    ( )     ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
0
ANTant
10/18/2016 9:51:24 PM
In article <P8GdnQOy9fPBBJvFnZ2dnUU7-SudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> > I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
> > fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
> > served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
> > well indeed.
> 
> Is this still true for USB flash drives? I was copying HUGE files and 
> even installing mac OS Sierra onto these two recent 32 GB USB flash  
> drives.

it was never true.
0
nospam
10/18/2016 9:52:15 PM
In article <M9udnURjA45vCZvFnZ2dnUU7-WWdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> wrote:
> > In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> > <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> > > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > > ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various 
> > > > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., SanDisk), 
> > > > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since 
> > > > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a year.
> > > > I keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
> > > 
> > > Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to 
> > > be would treasure a one year life span. 
> 
> > I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
> > still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
> > disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
> > the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
> > to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.
> 
> > A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
> > the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
> > never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.
> 
> > The same goes for USB flash drives. I've seen people treating them
> > extremely badly.
> 
> Someone told me putting these tiny USB flash drives in my wallets that 
> go into my pants' front pockets are breaking them due to stresses. What 
> do you thnk of that? I see people having them on keychains and they hit 
> tables, desks, etc. hard and loudly a lot! 

Unlike the physical components of a hard drive, a USB flash drive will
take knocks a lot better ... but in some models / badly made ones it
could cause to chips being dislodged, bent connectors, etc. There's
also the issue of the caps getting lost, and then dust, dirt, etc. can
get inside causing issues.

Whenever I take a USB flash drive with me (which is a relatively recent
thing since I continued to use floppy disks and then CD-RW discs much
longer than most other people), I always have it in my shirt pocket,
usually by itself. I never ever put anything in the back pocket of my
trousers - my wallet, handkerchief, keys pouch, etc. all go in the side
pockets.




> > > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It 
> > > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be essentially 
> > > disposable.
> > > 
> > > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so 
> > > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures 
> > > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in 
> > > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least 
> > > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry 
> > > too much about it.
> > 
> > USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
> > sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a limited
> > lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
> > continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
> > going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" much
> > sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
> > transport.
> > https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
> > http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
> > http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
> 
> The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12 on 
> these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already? I only 
> wanted to install and use the OS for quick tests like those bootable 
> read only live discs for OSes. :( In the past, I used these USB flsah 
> drives to copy all kinds of files (giant sizes too) to use between 
> various computers.
> 
> I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my 
> wallet to carry easily! Argh.

You can get portable hard drives that are fairly small (some even have
built-in USB cables so you can't lose / forget it), although nowhere
near as small as a USB flash drive of course, but on the flip side they
have far more storage and / or are cheaper than the equivalent storage.
0
Your
10/19/2016 12:28:59 AM
In article <P8GdnQCy9fNfBZvFnZ2dnUU7-SvNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> > 
> > The kids don???t do anything special with them static wise
> > and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
> > at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
> > heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
> > heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
> > I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
> > some heavy furniture in there.
> 
> No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped 
> them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during 
> heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet 
> temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).

One issue is people leaving them in cars ... it gets very hot inside a
car, especially during summer (even if parked in the shade). I don't
know how things such as SatNav units and even car music systems manage
to survive, but I never leave any disks / drives inside the car.
0
Your
10/19/2016 12:32:29 AM
On 2016-10-18, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>
>> > Either I'm having bad luck
>
>> Or are mistreating them in some way.
>
> Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives on 
> my side.

Maybe stop sitting on them. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
10/19/2016 12:38:34 AM
In article <191020161328596012%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> > Someone told me putting these tiny USB flash drives in my wallets that 
> > go into my pants' front pockets are breaking them due to stresses. What 
> > do you thnk of that? I see people having them on keychains and they hit 
> > tables, desks, etc. hard and loudly a lot! 
> 
> Unlike the physical components of a hard drive, a USB flash drive will
> take knocks a lot better ... 

obviously.

> but in some models / badly made ones it
> could cause to chips being dislodged, bent connectors, etc.

nonsense.

> There's
> also the issue of the caps getting lost, and then dust, dirt, etc. can
> get inside causing issues.

that doesn't matter.
0
nospam
10/19/2016 12:41:05 AM
In article <191020161332298632%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> > No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped 
> > them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during 
> > heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet 
> > temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).
> 
> One issue is people leaving them in cars ... it gets very hot inside a
> car, especially during summer (even if parked in the shade). I don't
> know how things such as SatNav units and even car music systems manage
> to survive,

because they're designed to be used in a wide temperature range.

> but I never leave any disks / drives inside the car.

risk of theft would be the only reason.
0
nospam
10/19/2016 12:41:06 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2016-10-18, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> >
> >> > Either I'm having bad luck
> >
> >> Or are mistreating them in some way.
> >
> > Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives on 
> > my side.

> Maybe stop sitting on them. 

I don't put them in my rear pockets. They go in my front pockets.
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o   o| |
   \ _ /    Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
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0
ANTant
10/19/2016 2:30:09 AM

"Ant" <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote in message 
news:M9udnURjA45vCZvFnZ2dnUU7-WWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> 
> wrote:
>> In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
>> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>
>> > For your reference, records indicate that
>> > ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
>> >
>> > > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with various
>> > > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., 
>> > > SanDisk),
>> > > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since
>> > > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a 
>> > > year. I
>> > > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
>> >
>> > Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to
>> > be would treasure a one year life span.
>
>> I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
>> still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
>> disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
>> the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
>> to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.
>
>> A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
>> the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
>> never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.
>
>> The same goes for USB flash drives. I've seen people treating them
>> extremely badly.
>
> Someone told me putting these tiny USB flash drives in my wallets that
> go into my pants' front pockets are breaking them due to stresses. What
> do you thnk of that?

I don't buy that, they are pretty rugged mechanically.

> I see people having them on keychains and they
> hit tables, desks, etc. hard and loudly a lot!

Yeah, don't buy that claim.

>> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It
>> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be 
>> > essentially
>> > disposable.
>> >
>> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
>> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures
>> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
>> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
>> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
>> > too much about it.
>
>> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
>> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a limited
>> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
>> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
>> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" much
>> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
>> transport.
>> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
>> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
>> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
>
> The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
> on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?

Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.

> I only wanted to install and use the OS for quick tests like those
> bootable read only live discs for OSes. :( In the past, I used these
> USB flsah drives to copy all kinds of files (giant sizes too) to use
> between various computers.

> I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
> wallet to carry easily! Argh.

Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
movies around like I do. 

0
Rod
10/19/2016 4:48:40 AM
Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

>> > Either I'm having bad luck

>> Or are mistreating them in some way.

> Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so
> many failed USB flash drives on my side.

Yeah, very suspicious given that we don�t get so many failures.

Don�t you get quite a few hard drive failures
too or am I remembering that wrong ?

>>> Some just stopped working and not detected at all
>>> by any computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s
>>> and OSes (Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows).

>> That is the result I got with the only one that has failed.
>> I haven't even bothered to open it up to check how its
>> failed, whether it is a simple mechanical failure, dry
>> joint/cracked trace etc or what.

> Their cases are hard to open up!

Some of them arent, have a look at the youtube teardowns.

> Looking at their USB connectors, they look clean and fine to me.

Yeah, it�s a pretty robust connector. I have
seen some cables  develop weak springs tho.

I use a cable from the USB port on the desktop to plug
the USB stick into, just so the cable socket is to the left
of the big armchair that I always compute from.

> No bad odors like burning smell.

Yeah, they don�t die like that.

> The only thing noticeable is their
> temperatures are hot after long usages.

I don�t use them that long, just copy the movies on to them.

>>> Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and
>>> can't even partition and format. Some seen and
>>> connected, but can't been fully formatted.

>>> What's up?

>> Either bad luck or the way you are treating them static wise.

>> The kids don't do anything special with them static wise
>> and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
>> at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
>> heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
>> heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
>> I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
>> some heavy furniture in there.

> No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped
> them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during
> heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet
> temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).

Should be fine.

>>> lots of physically moving around, etc.?

>> These get plenty of that, usually in cars but not always.

> Most of the times, the tiny drives are in my wallets to be carried
> where-ever I go. They don't move around much in the crowded
> tight wallet in my front pockets. That should be OK, right?

Yep. Shouldn�t even be a static problem with a plastic wallet either.

> I have seen people put them on their keychains and appear to be
> more abusive since they hit desks. tables, etc. but they still work.

Yeah, and they are pretty mechanically robust.

>>> Is Lexar brand any good as shown in
>>> http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page
>>> from the local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, Best
>>> Buy, Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.).

>> Yes, some of the ones I use are Lexars.

> Hmm, I might try Lexars next. Or maybe well known brands
> won't metter to me since Sandisk failed for me in the past. :/

I do have some sandisks, but the problem with sandisks is that
there are some fakes around too. Not that likely to be your
problem tho given that you don�t buy off ebay or aliexpress.

>>> Of course they must be returnable if the drives
>>> die quickly again within return times. :P

>>> Thank you in advance. :)

>> Still smirking.

> I will always smirk. ;)

Yep, you've always been a smirky little bugger. 

0
Rod
10/19/2016 5:02:25 AM

"Ant" <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote in message 
news:P8GdnQOy9fPBBJvFnZ2dnUU7-SudnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev 
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Your Name <YourName@yourisp.com> 
>> wrote:
>> > In article <nu5epg$3aq$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
>> > <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> For your reference, records indicate that
>> >> ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Either I'm having bad luck or USB flash drives suck even with 
>> >> > various
>> >> > sizes (e.g., 512 MB to 32 GB), well known brand names (e.g., 
>> >> > SanDisk),
>> >> > and cheap/free ones (SP [a few years] and Patriot [had it since
>> >> > 10/3/2015]). They don't seems like they don't last longer than a 
>> >> > year. I
>> >> > keep them in my drawers, wallets, etc.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, anyone who remembers how unreliable floppy disks used to
>> >> be would treasure a one year life span.
>> >
>> > I can't say I've ever had any real problems with floppy disks. I've
>> > still got a huge pile of them (some magazine cover disks, some my own
>> > disks). In fact, the biggest issue I've ever had with floppy disks is
>> > the drive in my beige G3 dying and I didn't have the time nor equipment
>> > to fix it, so I got an external USB one instead.
>> >
>> > A large part of the issue many people had with floppy disks is due to
>> > the way they treated them. Mine were and are always stored in boxes,
>> > never simply thrown into bags or pockets alone.
>
>> I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
>> fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
>> served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
>> well indeed.
>
> Is this still true for USB flash drives?

No its not. I mostly copy movie files. I do torrent quite a
few small music files too but  mostly put them directly on
the iphone the one kid who gets them wants them on.

> I was copying HUGE files

Should be fine, I mostly do that.

> and even installing mac OS Sierra onto
> these two recent 32 GB USB flash drives.

Havent done any of that. 

0
Rod
10/19/2016 5:05:11 AM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote 
> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

>>>> Either I'm having bad luck

>>> Or are mistreating them in some way.

>> Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives on 
>> my side.
 
> Maybe stop sitting on them. 

He isnt sitting on them, they are in his front pocket. 

They should be fine to sit on too, most of them are pretty 
mechanically robust and survive being on key rings fine.  
0
Rod
10/19/2016 5:08:08 AM
On 10-18-2016 16:28, Ant wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
>> Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often
>> size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.
>
> How often do you have to do that? I find it annoying this is happening
> so often!

Every one or two years.  But remember, it's usually NOT due to failure.

0
Happy
10/19/2016 5:15:03 AM
For your reference, records indicate that 
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <P8GdnQOy9fPBBJvFnZ2dnUU7-SudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> 
> > > I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
> > > fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
> > > served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
> > > well indeed.
> > 
> > Is this still true for USB flash drives? I was copying HUGE files and 
> > even installing mac OS Sierra onto these two recent 32 GB USB flash  
> > drives.
> 
> it was never true.

It is true that flash memory has limited read/write cycles.  Of 
course, under normal usage it would be unlikely to hit even a 10K 
cycle limit.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


0
Doc
10/19/2016 3:41:27 PM
In article <nu8477$cjc$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> > > > I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
> > > > fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
> > > > served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
> > > > well indeed.
> > > 
> > > Is this still true for USB flash drives? I was copying HUGE files and 
> > > even installing mac OS Sierra onto these two recent 32 GB USB flash  
> > > drives.
> > 
> > it was never true.
> 
> It is true that flash memory has limited read/write cycles.  

all types of storage has limited read/write cycles or some other
limiting factor (moving parts wearing out, etc.).

the point is that the size of the files being written does not matter.

there is no additional wear by writing a single larger file versus many
smaller files. in fact, it's probably *less* overall wear because of
the additional directory writes for the many smaller files.

> Of 
> course, under normal usage it would be unlikely to hit even a 10K 
> cycle limit.

true.
0
nospam
10/19/2016 3:49:41 PM
On 2016-10-19, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2016-10-18, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> >
>> >> > Either I'm having bad luck
>> >
>> >> Or are mistreating them in some way.
>> >
>> > Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives on 
>> > my side.
>
>> Maybe stop sitting on them. 
>
> I don't put them in my rear pockets. They go in my front pockets.

So? It's quite possible to place objects in your front pocket under
significant stress. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
10/19/2016 3:50:56 PM

"Jolly Roger" <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote in message 
news:e6pj30F524nU6@mid.individual.net...
> On 2016-10-19, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> On 2016-10-18, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>>> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed 
>>> > <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>>> >
>>> >> > Either I'm having bad luck
>>> >
>>> >> Or are mistreating them in some way.
>>> >
>>> > Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so many failed USB flash drives 
>>> > on
>>> > my side.
>>
>>> Maybe stop sitting on them.
>>
>> I don't put them in my rear pockets. They go in my front pockets.
>
> So?

So he isnt SITTING on them.

> It's quite possible to place objects in your
> front pocket under significant stress.

But he isnt SITTING on them. 

0
Rod
10/19/2016 6:01:25 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
> On 10-18-2016 16:28, Ant wrote:
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
> >> Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often
> >> size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.
> >
> > How often do you have to do that? I find it annoying this is happening
> > so often!

> Every one or two years.  But remember, it's usually NOT due to failure.

Not failures? You have a collection of them from upgrading to bigger and 
faster USB flash drives? :P
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o   o| |
   \ _ /    Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
    ( )     ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
0
ANTant
10/19/2016 10:40:01 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <nu8477$cjc$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> > > > > I found that frequent erasures and writes of large files killed them
> > > > > fairly fast, with just small writes to text files or the like they
> > > > > served a good life, and for Read-Only use I've found they last very
> > > > > well indeed.
> > > > 
> > > > Is this still true for USB flash drives? I was copying HUGE files and 
> > > > even installing mac OS Sierra onto these two recent 32 GB USB flash  
> > > > drives.
> > > 
> > > it was never true.
> > 
> > It is true that flash memory has limited read/write cycles.  

> all types of storage has limited read/write cycles or some other
> limiting factor (moving parts wearing out, etc.).

> the point is that the size of the files being written does not matter.

> there is no additional wear by writing a single larger file versus many
> smaller files. in fact, it's probably *less* overall wear because of
> the additional directory writes for the many smaller files.

> > Of 
> > course, under normal usage it would be unlikely to hit even a 10K 
> > cycle limit.

> true.

Hmm, I don't think my various copies, reformatting (various file 
systems), physical movements between computers, etc. are causing my 
failures? I wished there was a way to see counters and stuff.

-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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ANTant
10/19/2016 10:42:43 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:


> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy.  It
> >> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be 
> >> > essentially
> >> > disposable.
> >> >
> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures
> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
> >> > too much about it.
> >
> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a limited
> >> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
> >> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
> >> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" much
> >> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
> >> transport.
> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
> >
> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?

> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.

Too much writing from it? It didn't even finish installing and booting!  
I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/


> > I only wanted to install and use the OS for quick tests like those
> > bootable read only live discs for OSes. :( In the past, I used these
> > USB flsah drives to copy all kinds of files (giant sizes too) to use
> > between various computers.

> > I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
> > wallet to carry easily! Argh.

> Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
> movies around like I do. 

That is what I wanted to and yet they die on me. Argh!!!!!
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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ANTant
10/19/2016 10:50:37 PM
On 10-19-2016 17:40, Ant wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
>> On 10-18-2016 16:28, Ant wrote:
>>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often
>>>> size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.
>>>
>>> How often do you have to do that? I find it annoying this is happening
>>> so often!
>
>> Every one or two years.  But remember, it's usually NOT due to failure.
>
> Not failures? You have a collection of them from upgrading to bigger and
> faster USB flash drives? :P

I have had two failures, IIRC.  I have tossed or given away a few that I 
have replaced with bigger ones.  I also put bootable operating systems 
of different versions on some of the eight-gig sticks.

one-, two- and four-gig, I kept around until I had reason to use them to 
give some files to someone else (since many e-mail servers have a size 
limit.

I have never bothered to test whether one is faster than another.

0
Happy
10/19/2016 10:52:55 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> >> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

> >> > Either I'm having bad luck

> >> Or are mistreating them in some way.

> > Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so
> > many failed USB flash drives on my side.

> Yeah, very suspicious given that we don???t get so many failures.

> Don???t you get quite a few hard drive failures
> too or am I remembering that wrong ?

Just very old drives like IDE/ATA, etc. I have had data corruptions too, 
but no problems after reformatting and putting datas on them. One was a 
HDD crash because my client dropped his MacBook Pro. Heh!


> >>> Some just stopped working and not detected at all
> >>> by any computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s
> >>> and OSes (Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows).

> >> That is the result I got with the only one that has failed.
> >> I haven't even bothered to open it up to check how its
> >> failed, whether it is a simple mechanical failure, dry
> >> joint/cracked trace etc or what.

> > Their cases are hard to open up!

> Some of them arent, have a look at the youtube teardowns.

> > Looking at their USB connectors, they look clean and fine to me.

> Yeah, it???s a pretty robust connector. I have
> seen some cables  develop weak springs tho.

> I use a cable from the USB port on the desktop to plug
> the USB stick into, just so the cable socket is to the left
> of the big armchair that I always compute from.

Ah, USB cable extender. Useful for those hard to reach or far away 
places. ;)


> > No bad odors like burning smell.

> Yeah, they don???t die like that.

> > The only thing noticeable is their
> > temperatures are hot after long usages.

> I don???t use them that long, just copy the movies on to them.

Ah. I just noticed the two broken USB flash drive connected for a couple 
minutes, and they get hot already even if they aren't doing much. Is 
that even normal? :/


> >>> Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and
> >>> can't even partition and format. Some seen and
> >>> connected, but can't been fully formatted.

> >>> What's up?

> >> Either bad luck or the way you are treating them static wise.

> >> The kids don't do anything special with them static wise
> >> and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
> >> at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
> >> heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
> >> heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
> >> I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
> >> some heavy furniture in there.

> > No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped
> > them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during
> > heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet
> > temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).

> Should be fine.

OK.


> >>> lots of physically moving around, etc.?

> >> These get plenty of that, usually in cars but not always.

> > Most of the times, the tiny drives are in my wallets to be carried
> > where-ever I go. They don't move around much in the crowded
> > tight wallet in my front pockets. That should be OK, right?

> Yep. Shouldn???t even be a static problem with a plastic wallet either.

Well, this is an old vinyl wallet.


> > I have seen people put them on their keychains and appear to be
> > more abusive since they hit desks. tables, etc. but they still work.

> Yeah, and they are pretty mechanically robust.

> >>> Is Lexar brand any good as shown in
> >>> http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page
> >>> from the local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, Best
> >>> Buy, Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.).

> >> Yes, some of the ones I use are Lexars.

> > Hmm, I might try Lexars next. Or maybe well known brands
> > won't metter to me since Sandisk failed for me in the past. :/

> I do have some sandisks, but the problem with sandisks is that
> there are some fakes around too. Not that likely to be your
> problem tho given that you don???t buy off ebay or aliexpress.

Right, I avoid those places. I usually get them from retail stores. Of 
course free ones from where-ever, but they also die/break too. It made 
no differences for me!


> >>> Of course they must be returnable if the drives
> >>> die quickly again within return times. :P

> >>> Thank you in advance. :)

> >> Still smirking.

> > I will always smirk. ;)

> Yep, you've always been a smirky little bugger. 

:P
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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0
ANTant
10/19/2016 11:10:18 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@spam.invalid> wrote:
> >>>> Every time I think I need another (sometimes failure, but more often
> >>>> size), I pay about the same as before and get twice the size.
> >>>
> >>> How often do you have to do that? I find it annoying this is happening
> >>> so often!
> >
> >> Every one or two years.  But remember, it's usually NOT due to failure.
> >
> > Not failures? You have a collection of them from upgrading to bigger and
> > faster USB flash drives? :P

> I have had two failures, IIRC.  I have tossed or given away a few that I 
> have replaced with bigger ones.  I also put bootable operating systems 
> of different versions on some of the eight-gig sticks.

> one-, two- and four-gig, I kept around until I had reason to use them to 
> give some files to someone else (since many e-mail servers have a size 
> limit.

> I have never bothered to test whether one is faster than another.

Ah. I still keep the working ones in my desk like the USB v1.1 64 MB! 
Haha. I do toss/destroy broken/dead ones.
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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0
ANTant
10/19/2016 11:11:35 PM
In message <nu8tg6$504$1@gioia.aioe.org> 
  Happy.Hobo <Happy.Hobo@Spam.Invalid> wrote:
> (since many e-mail servers have a size limit.

*ALL* mail servers have a size limit.

-- 
'Who's that playing now, Mr. Dibbler?' "'And you".' 'Sorry, Mr.
Dibbler?' 'Only they write it &U,' said Dibbler. --Soul Music
0
Lewis
10/20/2016 4:19:46 AM
Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

>> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy. 
>> >> > It
>> >> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be
>> >> > essentially disposable.
>> >> >
>> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
>> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures
>> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
>> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
>> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
>> >> > too much about it.
>> >
>> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
>> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a 
>> >> limited
>> >> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
>> >> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
>> >> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" 
>> >> much
>> >> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or 
>> >> transport.
>> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
>> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
>> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
>> >
>> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
>> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?

>> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.

> Too much writing from it?

Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.

> It didn't even finish installing and booting!
> I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/

Yeah, that might well be what killed them.

>> > I only wanted to install and use the OS for quick tests like those
>> > bootable read only live discs for OSes. :( In the past, I used these
>> > USB flsah drives to copy all kinds of files (giant sizes too) to use
>> > between various computers.
>
>> > I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
>> > wallet to carry easily! Argh.
>
>> Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
>> movies around like I do.
>
> That is what I wanted to and yet they die on me. Argh!!!!!

That's because of all that drunken grave dancing you get up to.

You were warned, boy. You wouldn't listen.... 

0
Rod
10/20/2016 4:48:51 AM
Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote

>>>>> Either I'm having bad luck

>>>> Or are mistreating them in some way.

>>> Maybe. I am trying to figure out why so
>>> many failed USB flash drives on my side.

>> Yeah, very suspicious given that we don???t get so many failures.

>> Don't you get quite a few hard drive failures
>> too or am I remembering that wrong ?

> Just very old drives like IDE/ATA, etc.

I've only ever had the one of those of mine die
and I have a lot more of them than you do.

And one that one of the neighbours kids killed by kicking
the system over accidentally when installing Win7 on it.

> I have had data corruptions too,

Haven't had any of that either.

> but no problems after reformatting and putting datas on them. One
> was a HDD crash because my client dropped his MacBook Pro. Heh!

Yeah, I remember that one now. That is very understandable
and like I say I have had one of those too. That system is
basically a laptop in a desktop mini case.

>> >>> Some just stopped working and not detected at all
>> >>> by any computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s
>> >>> and OSes (Linux, Mac OS X, and Windows).
>
>> >> That is the result I got with the only one that has failed.
>> >> I haven't even bothered to open it up to check how its
>> >> failed, whether it is a simple mechanical failure, dry
>> >> joint/cracked trace etc or what.
>
>> > Their cases are hard to open up!
>
>> Some of them arent, have a look at the youtube teardowns.
>
>> > Looking at their USB connectors, they look clean and fine to me.
>
>> Yeah, it???s a pretty robust connector. I have
>> seen some cables  develop weak springs tho.
>
>> I use a cable from the USB port on the desktop to plug
>> the USB stick into, just so the cable socket is to the left
>> of the big armchair that I always compute from.

> Ah, USB cable extender. Useful for
> those hard to reach or far away places. ;)

Yeah, that system is more than 6' away and
I have to get up and walk over to it to plug
anything into it. Been too lazy to clean up
the fucking great mess of two obsolete systems
that never get used and the immense mess of
cables around them so that current desktop is
within easy reach like the obsolete ones are.
It still sits on the top of the table that has
the printer in it, with no covers on it at all.

>> > No bad odors like burning smell.
>
>> Yeah, they don???t die like that.
>
>> > The only thing noticeable is their
>> > temperatures are hot after long usages.
>
>> I don't use them that long, just copy the movies on to them.
>
> Ah. I just noticed the two broken USB flash drive connected
> for a couple minutes, and they get hot already even if they
> aren't doing much. Is that even normal? :/

No its not, they shouldn�t be doing that.

I did plug the one dead USB stick back in again to refresh my
memory about how it behaves and it does get seen by the
system, the system says it needs to be formatted and when
you format it nothing ever happens. I left that plugged in
for hours after doing that and it never even got warm.

I have had some that are noticeably a little warmer
after I have filled them with movies than they were
when I plugged them in, but never any that got hot.

>> >>> Some are detected but no disk volumes seen and
>> >>> can't even partition and format. Some seen and
>> >>> connected, but can't been fully formatted.
>
>> >>> What's up?
>
>> >> Either bad luck or the way you are treating them static wise.
>
>> >> The kids don't do anything special with them static wise
>> >> and the houses are all carpeted, 3 different houses. And
>> >> at least one of them has full aircon used in the winter for
>> >> heating which can be a static problem. One other has gas
>> >> heating and I forget what the third one has heating wise.
>> >> I've only been in there in other than the winter, moving
>> >> some heavy furniture in there.
>
>> > No carpets here, but a few rugs. Mostly hard floors (never dropped
>> > them). Temperatures can be hot (up to 90F degrees in the room during
>> > heat waves). The two drives that went bust was during the cold and wet
>> > temperatures (60F degrees and light rain outside; 70F degres indoor).
>
>> Should be fine.
>
> OK.
>
>
>> >>> lots of physically moving around, etc.?
>
>> >> These get plenty of that, usually in cars but not always.
>
>> > Most of the times, the tiny drives are in my wallets to be carried
>> > where-ever I go. They don't move around much in the crowded
>> > tight wallet in my front pockets. That should be OK, right?
>
>> Yep. Shouldn???t even be a static problem with a plastic wallet either.
>
> Well, this is an old vinyl wallet.

Still should be fine given that the big USB connector has the pins
well inside the connector body. They shouldn�t be in contact with
the wallet at all.

>> > I have seen people put them on their keychains and appear to be
>> > more abusive since they hit desks. tables, etc. but they still work.
>
>> Yeah, and they are pretty mechanically robust.
>
>> >>> Is Lexar brand any good as shown in
>> >>> http://www.salescircular.com/ca/computer/usbstp.shtml web page
>> >>> from the local So(uthern) CA(lifornia) stores (Fry's Electronics, 
>> >>> Best
>> >>> Buy, Costco, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, Staples, etc.).
>
>> >> Yes, some of the ones I use are Lexars.
>
>> > Hmm, I might try Lexars next. Or maybe well known brands
>> > won't metter to me since Sandisk failed for me in the past. :/
>
>> I do have some sandisks, but the problem with sandisks is that
>> there are some fakes around too. Not that likely to be your
>> problem tho given that you don't buy off ebay or aliexpress.

> Right, I avoid those places. I usually get them from retail stores.
> Of course free ones from where-ever, but they also die/break
> too. It made no differences for me!
>
>
>> >>> Of course they must be returnable if the drives
>> >>> die quickly again within return times. :P
>
>> >>> Thank you in advance. :)
>
>> >> Still smirking.
>
>> > I will always smirk. ;)
>
>> Yep, you've always been a smirky little bugger.
>
> :P
 

0
Rod
10/20/2016 5:01:43 AM
On 2016-10-19, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>
>>> I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
>>> wallet to carry easily! Argh.
>
>> Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
>> movies around like I do. 
>
> That is what I wanted to and yet they die on me. Argh!!!!!

No thanks. I find transferring files over a network to be *much* more
convenient than lugging USB sticks with me wherever I go. My USB sticks
are mostly used as macOS installer media. They sit in a drawer most of
the time, just waiting to be used.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
10/20/2016 3:30:53 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote

> >> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy. 
> >> >> > It
> >> >> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be
> >> >> > essentially disposable.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
> >> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures
> >> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
> >> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
> >> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
> >> >> > too much about it.
> >> >
> >> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
> >> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a 
> >> >> limited
> >> >> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
> >> >> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
> >> >> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" 
> >> >> much
> >> >> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or 
> >> >> transport.
> >> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
> >> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
> >> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
> >> >
> >> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
> >> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?

> >> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.

> > Too much writing from it?

> Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.

> > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
> > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/

> Yeah, that might well be what killed them.

The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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0
ANTant
10/20/2016 7:48:34 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2016-10-19, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
> >>> wallet to carry easily! Argh.
> >
> >> Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
> >> movies around like I do. 
> >
> > That is what I wanted to and yet they die on me. Argh!!!!!

> No thanks. I find transferring files over a network to be *much* more
> convenient than lugging USB sticks with me wherever I go. My USB sticks
> are mostly used as macOS installer media. They sit in a drawer most of
> the time, just waiting to be used.

Networks would be nice if they were fast and everywhere outside for 
huge data transfers. Also, I don't put every networked devices on the 
same LAN like foreign devices like from work, visitors, etc. :P
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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0
ANTant
10/20/2016 8:02:02 PM
On 2016-10-20, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2016-10-19, Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>> I love flash drives for being super tiny and light to stick into my
>> >>> wallet to carry easily! Argh.
>> >
>> >> Yeah, very convenient for some situations like that and moving
>> >> movies around like I do. 
>> >
>> > That is what I wanted to and yet they die on me. Argh!!!!!
>
>> No thanks. I find transferring files over a network to be *much* more
>> convenient than lugging USB sticks with me wherever I go. My USB sticks
>> are mostly used as macOS installer media. They sit in a drawer most of
>> the time, just waiting to be used.
>
> Networks would be nice if they were fast and everywhere outside for
> huge data transfers.

My networks *are* fast. If I need to transfer gobs of data, I use a hard
drive.

> Also, I don't put every networked devices on the same LAN like foreign
> devices like from work, visitors, etc. :P

Seems silly.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
10/20/2016 8:08:02 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> 
>> >> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy. 
>> >> >> > It
>> >> >> > doesn?t much matter who you go with, they?re all built to be
>> >> >> > essentially disposable.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
>> >> >> > you?d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you?re seeing failures
>> >> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
>> >> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
>> >> >> > the warranty runs out.  It?s not a huge expense, so I don?t worry
>> >> >> > too much about it.
>> >> >
>> >> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
>> >> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a 
>> >> >> limited
>> >> >> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
>> >> >> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual memory
>> >> >> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out" 
>> >> >> much
>> >> >> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or 
>> >> >> transport.
>> >> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
>> >> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
>> >> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
>> >> >
>> >> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
>> >> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?
> 
>> >> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.
> 
>> > Too much writing from it?
> 
>> Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.
> 
>> > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
>> > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
> 
>> Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
> 
> The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?

No (to the touch), but I've seen customer reviews of some miniature
ones that comment on them getting too hot to touch, perhaps even
beginning to melt the case of a laptop (my memory is sketchy on
whether this last claim was made or not).

One I'm thinking of was a well known brand sold very recently by
major retailers in Australia. I'm afraid I can't remember the
exact brand or model.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/20/2016 9:14:56 PM
In article <QLydnR2Q1eAPgpTFnZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> > > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new floppy. 
> > >> >> > It doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be
> > >> >> > essentially disposable.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, so
> > >> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing failures
> > >> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand in
> > >> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at least
> > >> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
> > >> >> > too much about it.
> > >> >
> > >> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
> > >> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a 
> > >> >> limited lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using 
> > >> >> them continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like
> > >> >> virtual memory going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them 
> > >> >> to "wear out" much sooner than simply using them to store files on 
> > >> >> for backup or transport.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-driv
> > >> >> e
> > >> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
> > >> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
> > >> >
> > >> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
> > >> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?
> > >>
> > >> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.
> > >
> > > Too much writing from it?
> >
> > Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.
> >  
> > > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
> > > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
> 
> > Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
> 
> The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?

They pretty much all get warm-ish to hot because the USB port is
sending electricity through for powering the drive and sending /
retreiveing data. How hot they get depends on the size of the case, how
much free air space there is around the circuit board, the materials
used in the case, the tightness of the circuit board design, etc. It
will also depend on where they're plugged in (behind a computer with
little air flow will make them hotter than sitting on the desk
underneath a fan).

They aren't really designed to be left plugged and in constant use.
They're designed to transfer files from one computer to another.
0
Your
10/21/2016 12:50:39 AM
In article <211020161350399612%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> > > > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
> > > > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
> > 
> > > Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
> > 
> > The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?
> 
> They pretty much all get warm-ish to hot because the USB port is
> sending electricity through for powering the drive and sending /
> retreiveing data. How hot they get depends on the size of the case, how
> much free air space there is around the circuit board, the materials
> used in the case, the tightness of the circuit board design, etc. It
> will also depend on where they're plugged in (behind a computer with
> little air flow will make them hotter than sitting on the desk
> underneath a fan).

nonsense. some usb sticks get warm, others don't. it also doesn't
matter.

> They aren't really designed to be left plugged and in constant use.
> They're designed to transfer files from one computer to another.

either works perfectly fine.
0
nospam
10/21/2016 1:32:15 AM
In message <201020162132151132%nospam@nospam.invalid> 
  nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <211020161350399612%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
> <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

>> > > > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
>> > > > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
>> > 
>> > > Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
>> > 
>> > The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?
>> 
>> They pretty much all get warm-ish to hot because the USB port is
>> sending electricity through for powering the drive and sending /
>> retreiveing data. How hot they get depends on the size of the case, how
>> much free air space there is around the circuit board, the materials
>> used in the case, the tightness of the circuit board design, etc. It
>> will also depend on where they're plugged in (behind a computer with
>> little air flow will make them hotter than sitting on the desk
>> underneath a fan).

> nonsense. some usb sticks get warm, others don't. it also doesn't
> matter.

I've had at least one that got so hot I could not remove it from the
computer with my fingers. It was a crappy one that I was given in lieu
of printed information when I told them I could not use their business
card sized (and shaped) mini cd. IIRC the thumb drive was 128MB and after
I managed to get it out of my computer with the use of a cloth napkin, I
threw it in the trash.

> either works perfectly fine.

I find USB thumb drives get very temperamental if they are left plugged in
horizontally. I have a USB hub with ports on top and find the thumb drives
do much better in that.

-- 
If at first you don't succeed, put it out for beta test.
0
Lewis
10/21/2016 8:53:46 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> 
>>> > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
>>> > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
>> 
>>> Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
>> 
>> The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?
> 
> No (to the touch), but I've seen customer reviews of some miniature
> ones that comment on them getting too hot to touch, perhaps even
> beginning to melt the case of a laptop (my memory is sketchy on
> whether this last claim was made or not).
> 
> One I'm thinking of was a well known brand sold very recently by
> major retailers in Australia. I'm afraid I can't remember the
> exact brand or model.

Actually if all your memory sticks are getting hot, are you sure
it's not an issue with the computer (assuming you're mostly using
these in the one machine)?

There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
of the drive.

Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/21/2016 9:41:50 PM
In article <nue22s$bg9$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> 
> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
> USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
> was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
> of the drive.

if the voltage was too high, not only would it not be usb compliant,
but it would likely fry anything plugged into it, which is expecting a
regulated 5v. the amount of current sourced is limited by what the
device negotiates from the host.

> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.

unlikely.
0
nospam
10/21/2016 9:46:16 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <nue22s$bg9$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> > There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
> > USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
> > was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
> > of the drive.

> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not be usb compliant,
> but it would likely fry anything plugged into it, which is expecting a
> regulated 5v. the amount of current sourced is limited by what the
> device negotiates from the host.

> > Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
> > of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
> > that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> > the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> > to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
> > the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
> > stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.

> unlikely.

Fry right away or after a while?
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
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0
ANTant
10/21/2016 10:23:50 PM
In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> 
> Fry right away or after a while?

usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
0
nospam
10/21/2016 10:27:57 PM

"Ant" <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote in message 
news:QLydnR2Q1eAPgpTFnZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>
>> >> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new 
>> >> >> > floppy.
>> >> >> > It
>> >> >> > doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be
>> >> >> > essentially disposable.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year warranty, 
>> >> >> > so
>> >> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing 
>> >> >> > failures
>> >> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand 
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at 
>> >> >> > least
>> >> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t worry
>> >> >> > too much about it.
>> >> >
>> >> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
>> >> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a
>> >> >> limited
>> >> >> lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so using them
>> >> >> continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like virtual 
>> >> >> memory
>> >> >> going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause them to "wear out"
>> >> >> much
>> >> >> sooner than simply using them to store files on for backup or
>> >> >> transport.
>> >> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-drive
>> >> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
>> >> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
>> >> >
>> >> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
>> >> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?
>
>> >> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.
>
>> > Too much writing from it?
>
>> Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.
>
>> > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
>> > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
>
>> Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
>
> The heat?

What got them that hot anyway. Looks like something failed
that sees them get hot now when plugged in, even tho you
arent doing anything. That's not right.

> Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?

Nope, none of mine do. They do get marginally warmer after
they have been filled with movies, but only marginally warmer,
nothing even remotely like hot. 

0
Rod
10/21/2016 11:03:52 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> > 
> > Fry right away or after a while?

> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.

Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P
-- 
Quote of the Week: "I really believe I've been a good person. Not 
perfect - forget about perfect - but just learning by what I was taught 
and living by my own values. I might have stepped on a few ants - and a 
few other things as well - but I've never hurt anybody." --Kiri Te 
Kanawa
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
  /\___/\   Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
 / /\ /\ \                 Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
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   \ _ /    Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
    ( )     ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
0
ANTant
10/21/2016 11:05:23 PM

"Your Name" <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote in message 
news:211020161350399612%YourName@YourISP.com...
> In article <QLydnR2Q1eAPgpTFnZ2dnUU7-VvNnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>> > Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>> > > Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > I think, for the industry, flash drives are seen as the new 
>> > >> >> > floppy.
>> > >> >> > It doesn�t much matter who you go with, they�re all built to be
>> > >> >> > essentially disposable.
>> > >> >> >
>> > >> >> > That said, though, they all seem to come with a 2+ year 
>> > >> >> > warranty, so
>> > >> >> > you�d be getting some nifty free refreshes if you�re seeing 
>> > >> >> > failures
>> > >> >> > every year.  Personally, I just buy the MicroCenter store brand 
>> > >> >> > in
>> > >> >> > whatever size $10 will get me, and it generally lasts until at 
>> > >> >> > least
>> > >> >> > the warranty runs out.  It�s not a huge expense, so I don�t 
>> > >> >> > worry
>> > >> >> > too much about it.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >> USB flash drives (thumb drive, keyring drives, pen drives, memory
>> > >> >> sticks, whatever else you want to call them) and SSDs do have a
>> > >> >> limited lifespan measured in the number of write cycles ... so 
>> > >> >> using
>> > >> >> them continuously (e.g. as an OS boot drive with things like
>> > >> >> virtual memory going) as Ant said can be a bit silly and cause 
>> > >> >> them
>> > >> >> to "wear out" much sooner than simply using them to store files 
>> > >> >> on
>> > >> >> for backup or transport.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> https://www.techwalla.com/articles/life-expectancy-of-a-usb-flash-driv
>> > >> >> e
>> > >> >> http://www.storagecraft.com/blog/data-storage-lifespan/
>> > >> >> http://www.flashbay.co.nz/blog/usb-life-expectancy
>> > >> >
>> > >> > The weird part is that I was still installing mac OS Sierra v10.12
>> > >> > on these two old USB flash drives. Is that too much already?
>> > >>
>> > >> Yeah, much more likely that it was that that killed them.
>> > >
>> > > Too much writing from it?
>> >
>> > Unlikely, that doesn't write all that much.
>> >
>> > > It didn't even finish installing and booting!
>> > > I know those USB flash drives were hot to touch. :/
>>
>> > Yeah, that might well be what killed them.
>>
>> The heat? Hmm, do all USB flash drives get hot after being connected?
>
> They pretty much all get warm-ish to hot because the USB port is
> sending electricity through for powering the drive and sending /
> retreiveing data. How hot they get depends on the size of the case, how
> much free air space there is around the circuit board, the materials
> used in the case, the tightness of the circuit board design, etc. It
> will also depend on where they're plugged in (behind a computer with
> little air flow will make them hotter than sitting on the desk
> underneath a fan).
>
> They aren't really designed to be left plugged and in constant use.
> They're designed to transfer files from one computer to another.

I find that they don't even get warm when just plugged in,
doing nothing at all.

And some of mine are the smallest ones too, not much bigger
than the smallest coin with the bit that isnt the USB plug itself. 

0
Rod
10/21/2016 11:05:38 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <nue22s$bg9$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
>> USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
>> was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
>> of the drive.
> 
> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not be usb compliant,
> but it would likely fry anything plugged into it, which is expecting a
> regulated 5v.

I don't mean by design (although anything's possible with Chinese
knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean due to a failure of
the computer hardware.

Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply. If
the internal computer components and the USB ports were both
subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it would
be very likely to destroy the computer without the user having
any time to worry about their USB accessories.

Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that provide the
USB 5V from the same lines as everything else, so it is unlikely
that an over-voltage situation would only affect the USB ports.

A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.

A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.

> the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
> negotiates from the host.

Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?

>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
> 
> unlikely.

Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/22/2016 9:22:46 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> 
>> > 
>> > Fry right away or after a while?
> 
>> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
>> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
> 
> Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P

Do they get hot in one computer but not another?

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/22/2016 9:26:40 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
>>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> > 
>>> > Fry right away or after a while?
>> 
>>> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
>>> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
>> 
>> Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P
> 
> Do they get hot in one computer but not another?

The memory sticks, that is.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/22/2016 9:27:52 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> >>> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> >>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> > 
> >>> > Fry right away or after a while?
> >> 
> >>> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
> >>> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
> >> 
> >> Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P
> > 
> > Do they get hot in one computer but not another?

> The memory sticks, that is.

Correct in memory sticks in all computers.
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0
ANTant
10/22/2016 10:37:55 PM
In article <QoydnY1qGe_ed5bFnZ2dnUU7-fednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev
> > <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> > > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> > >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > >>> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> > >>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> > >>> > 
> > >>> > Fry right away or after a while?
> > >> 
> > >>> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
> > >>> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
> > >> 
> > >> Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P
> > > 
> > > Do they get hot in one computer but not another?
> > 
> > The memory sticks, that is.
> 
> Correct in memory sticks in all computers.

There's your problem ... "Memory Sticks" should only be used in Sony
devices.  ;-)
0
Your
10/23/2016 1:16:09 AM
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote

>>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to
>>> show if the USB voltage from a computer is too high/low.
>>> If the USB voltage was far too high, the extra energy
>>> would cause excessive heating of the drive.

>> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not
>> be usb compliant, but it would likely fry anything
>> plugged into it, which is expecting a regulated 5v.

> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible
> with Chinese knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean
> due to a failure of the computer hardware.

> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply.

They are in desktops. That's the whole point of the +5V standby line.

> If the internal computer components and the USB ports were
> both subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it
> would be very likely to destroy the computer without the
> user having any time to worry about their USB accessories.

Depends on how much its out by. Certainly if its out by enough
to see what normally stays at room temp get very hot when
doing nothing with just the USB stick plugged in, doing nothing.

> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that
> provide the USB 5V from the same lines as everything else,

That is just plain wrong. Its usually supplied by the +5V standby
line, so you can wake the system by moving the mouse etc.

> so it is unlikely that an over-voltage situation
> would only affect the USB ports.

You have that completely backwards.

> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit
> for the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.

In fact laptops are more likely to have a
separate +5V line for the same reason.

> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly
> specified mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.

>> the amount of current sourced is limited by
>> what the device negotiates from the host.

> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?

>>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.

>> unlikely.

> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
> in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.

But doesn�t explain why all the sticks get hot. 

0
Rod
10/24/2016 12:43:30 AM
In article <nuglb2$us$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> >> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
> >> USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
> >> was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
> >> of the drive.
> > 
> > if the voltage was too high, not only would it not be usb compliant,
> > but it would likely fry anything plugged into it, which is expecting a
> > regulated 5v.
> 
> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible with Chinese
> knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean due to a failure of
> the computer hardware.
> 
> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply. If
> the internal computer components and the USB ports were both
> subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it would
> be very likely to destroy the computer without the user having
> any time to worry about their USB accessories.

if the internal power supply failed then computer wouldn't work, not
just the ports.

> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that provide the
> USB 5V from the same lines as everything else, so it is unlikely
> that an over-voltage situation would only affect the USB ports.

exactly the point.

> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
> the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.

no.

> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
> mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.

no hub was used.

> > the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
> > negotiates from the host.
> 
> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?

usb devices don't work that way.

> >> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
> >> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
> >> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> >> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> >> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
> >> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
> >> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
> > 
> > unlikely.
> 
> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
> in the first place. 

broken joints don't get hot. they simply don't work.

> It is a less common failure, but it's also
> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.

it's not uncommon at all. memory sticks are cheap enough to be
considered disposable. sometimes they're even given away for free.
0
nospam
10/24/2016 12:53:44 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> 
>>>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to
>>>> show if the USB voltage from a computer is too high/low.
>>>> If the USB voltage was far too high, the extra energy
>>>> would cause excessive heating of the drive.
> 
>>> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not
>>> be usb compliant, but it would likely fry anything
>>> plugged into it, which is expecting a regulated 5v.
> 
>> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible
>> with Chinese knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean
>> due to a failure of the computer hardware.
> 
>> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
>> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply.
> 
> They are in desktops. That's the whole point of the +5V standby line.

No it isn't. The 5V Standby line is to enable the motherboard
hardware to detect when the power switch is pressed, and on
many motherboards it is used to power additional functions
while the computer is off as well.

The Standby line was only specified to 10mA before the ATX 2.2
spec. and 2A afterwards. That means that an ATX 2.2 PSU could
only supply power for four USB 2 ports at 500mA maximum output,
or two USB 3 ports as 900mA maximum output. Before ATX 2.2 no
USB port could have been provided with remotely enough power
from a PSU meeting the 10mA 5V standby minimum requirement.

http://pinouts.ru/Power/atx_v2_pinout.shtml

I know some PCs supply power to USB devices when off (I find
this a pain), but it's not the case in many designs, and the
required use of the 5V standby line by the motherboard's
circuitry means that damaging voltage on this line will affect
the computer at the same time as the USB devices, leaving the
user with more to worry about than just their memory sticks
dying.

>> If the internal computer components and the USB ports were
>> both subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it
>> would be very likely to destroy the computer without the
>> user having any time to worry about their USB accessories.
> 
> Depends on how much its out by. Certainly if its out by enough
> to see what normally stays at room temp get very hot when
> doing nothing with just the USB stick plugged in, doing nothing.

The maximum voltage ratings would probably only be known by the
memory stick IC manufacturers and their clients, however 5.5V
is a common design maximum. 5.25V is the maximum PSU output
under the ATX specification.

>> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that
>> provide the USB 5V from the same lines as everything else,
> 
> That is just plain wrong. Its usually supplied by the +5V standby
> line, so you can wake the system by moving the mouse etc.
> 
>> so it is unlikely that an over-voltage situation
>> would only affect the USB ports.
> 
> You have that completely backwards.
>
>> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit
>> for the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
> 
> In fact laptops are more likely to have a
> separate +5V line for the same reason.
>
>> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly
>> specified mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
> 
>>> the amount of current sourced is limited by
>>> what the device negotiates from the host.
> 
>> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
> 
>>>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>>>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>>>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>>>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>>>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
> 
>>> unlikely.
> 
>> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>> in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
>> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
> 
> But doesn?t explain why all the sticks get hot. 

"a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
to the drives themselves via the USB connector."

The socket is the bit in the computer.

If the same socket/s are used, all the USB memory sticks drawing
the same, or similar, currents will get hotter than normal. They
will also receive less voltage than otherwise due to the voltage
drop over the resistance of the failed solder joint - which is
waht causes the heat.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/24/2016 1:31:12 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> >>> In article <UvidnXl5SqXrCJfFnZ2dnUU7-RednZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
>> >>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> > 
>> >>> > Fry right away or after a while?
>> >> 
>> >>> usually quickly, but it depends how much over 5v it is. chances are
>> >>> that unless you bought a noname charger, the usb host is within spec.
>> >> 
>> >> Well, the USB ports are inside the computers. ;P
>> > 
>> > Do they get hot in one computer but not another?
> 
>> The memory sticks, that is.
> 
> Correct in memory sticks in all computers.

If the USB <insert preferred term> sticks get hot in different
computers then the failure isn't in the computer after all. unless
the stress under the 5V high voltage has causes parts of them
to short and now they're heating up at normal voltage, but
it's unlikely that different models would all fail in that
way.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/24/2016 1:36:27 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <nuglb2$us$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> >> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to show if the
>> >> USB voltage from a computer is too high/low. If the USB voltage
>> >> was far too high, the extra energy would cause excessive heating
>> >> of the drive.
>> > 
>> > if the voltage was too high, not only would it not be usb compliant,
>> > but it would likely fry anything plugged into it, which is expecting a
>> > regulated 5v.
>> 
>> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible with Chinese
>> knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean due to a failure of
>> the computer hardware.
>> 
>> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
>> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply. If
>> the internal computer components and the USB ports were both
>> subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it would
>> be very likely to destroy the computer without the user having
>> any time to worry about their USB accessories.
> 
> if the internal power supply failed then computer wouldn't work, not
> just the ports.
> 
>> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that provide the
>> USB 5V from the same lines as everything else, so it is unlikely
>> that an over-voltage situation would only affect the USB ports.
> 
> exactly the point.
> 
>> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
>> the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
> 
> no.

Yes. If the 5V supply circuit was built separately for use by
the relatively high current USB devices, it's failure (in this
way) would not stop the computer operating. In some cases it
might (I won't spend the time spelling it out), but if no USB
devices are connected, it won't.

>> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
>> mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
> 
> no hub was used.

Known now, yes.

>> > the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
>> > negotiates from the host.
>> 
>> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
> 
> usb devices don't work that way.

OK, so the device can specify roughly the current it needs via
the USB protocol, which if you're lucky will be respected by the
computer hardware. The current specification isn't accurate
enough to prevent damage though, for the reason shown above.
The current increase as voltage is increased isn't great enough
to trip the limiting.

>> >> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>> >> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>> >> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>> >> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>> >> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>> >> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>> >> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
>> > 
>> > unlikely.
>> 
>> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>> in the first place. 
> 
> broken joints don't get hot. they simply don't work.

Sometimes they simply form a high resistance. Look it up - dry
joints.

>> It is a less common failure, but it's also
>> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
> 
> it's not uncommon at all. memory sticks are cheap enough to be
> considered disposable. sometimes they're even given away for free.

As I remember it, OP figures that he's bought good ones - hence
his confusion about the cause of the failure rate.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/24/2016 1:49:42 AM
In article <nujpbk$au4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> > 
> >> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
> >> the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
> >> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
> > 
> > no.
> 
> Yes. If the 5V supply circuit was built separately for use by
> the relatively high current USB devices, it's failure (in this
> way) would not stop the computer operating. In some cases it
> might (I won't spend the time spelling it out), but if no USB
> devices are connected, it won't.

usb devices are not 'relatively high current'.

usb originally specified a maximum of 500ma. the usb charging spec can
go to about 2a, and at 5v, is just 10w.

> >> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
> >> mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
> > 
> > no hub was used.
> 
> Known now, yes.

it was known before.

> >> > the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
> >> > negotiates from the host.
> >> 
> >> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
> >> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
> >> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
> >> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
> >> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
> >> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
> >> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
> >> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
> >> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
> >> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
> > 
> > usb devices don't work that way.
> 
> OK, so the device can specify roughly the current it needs via
> the USB protocol, which if you're lucky will be respected by the
> computer hardware.

luck has absolutely *nothing* to do with it.

the usb spec *requires* that a usb peripheral device use *up* *to*
100ma and then negotiate higher current requirements, which the usb
host can deny.

anything else is not compliant with the usb spec.

> The current specification isn't accurate
> enough to prevent damage though, for the reason shown above.
> The current increase as voltage is increased isn't great enough
> to trip the limiting.

no.

> >> >> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
> >> >> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
> >> >> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> >> >> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> >> >> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
> >> >> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
> >> >> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
> >> > 
> >> > unlikely.
> >> 
> >> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
> >> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
> >> in the first place. 
> > 
> > broken joints don't get hot. they simply don't work.
> 
> Sometimes they simply form a high resistance. Look it up - dry
> joints.

they're commonly called cold solder joints, and will cause a device to
fail not get hot.

> >> It is a less common failure, but it's also
> >> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
> > 
> > it's not uncommon at all. memory sticks are cheap enough to be
> > considered disposable. sometimes they're even given away for free.
> 
> As I remember it, OP figures that he's bought good ones - hence
> his confusion about the cause of the failure rate.

it wasn't due to heat.
0
nospam
10/24/2016 2:03:57 AM
In article <nujo8u$9to$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> The maximum voltage ratings would probably only be known by the
> memory stick IC manufacturers and their clients, however 5.5V
> is a common design maximum. 5.25V is the maximum PSU output
> under the ATX specification.

this isn't about atx, it's about usb, which clearly states that 5.25v
is the maximum, regardless of who makes it.
0
nospam
10/24/2016 2:03:58 AM
In article <nujoip$a48$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> 
> If the USB <insert preferred term> sticks get hot in different
> computers then the failure isn't in the computer after all. unless
> the stress under the 5V high voltage has causes parts of them
> to short and now they're heating up at normal voltage, but
> it's unlikely that different models would all fail in that
> way.

getting hot is not necessarily a failure. 

some usb sticks run hot. others don't. most get warm. it's normal.
0
nospam
10/24/2016 2:03:59 AM
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote

>>>>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to
>>>>> show if the USB voltage from a computer is too high/low.
>>>>> If the USB voltage was far too high, the extra energy
>>>>> would cause excessive heating of the drive.

>>>> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not
>>>> be usb compliant, but it would likely fry anything
>>>> plugged into it, which is expecting a regulated 5v.

>>> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible
>>> with Chinese knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean
>>> due to a failure of the computer hardware.

>>> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
>>> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply.

>> They are in desktops. That's the whole point of the +5V standby line.

> No it isn't.

Yes it is.

> The 5V Standby line is to enable the motherboard hardware
> to detect when the power switch is pressed, and on many
> motherboards it is used to power additional functions
> while the computer is off as well.

Like the USB so moving the mouse will wake
the system if you have set it up like that.

>>> If the internal computer components and the USB ports were
>>> both subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it
>>> would be very likely to destroy the computer without the
>>> user having any time to worry about their USB accessories.

>> Depends on how much its out by. Certainly if its out by enough
>> to see what normally stays at room temp get very hot when
>> doing nothing with just the USB stick plugged in, doing nothing.

> The maximum voltage ratings would probably only be known
> by the memory stick IC manufacturers and their clients,

Wrong again, its obviously in the specs of the ics.

But again, irrelevant, because even if that was say 7V, that
isnt going to be enough so the memory sticks that don�t even
get warm when supplied with 5V when not doing anything
get very hot when they are supplied with 7V. Basic physics.

> however 5.5V is a common design maximum.

Not with the absolute maximum above which you get damage.

> 5.25V is the maximum PSU output under the ATX specification.

Irrelevant to a potential fault situation.

>>> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that
>>> provide the USB 5V from the same lines as everything else,
>>
>> That is just plain wrong. Its usually supplied by the +5V standby
>> line, so you can wake the system by moving the mouse etc.
>>
>>> so it is unlikely that an over-voltage situation
>>> would only affect the USB ports.
>>
>> You have that completely backwards.
>>
>>> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit
>>> for the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>>> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
>>
>> In fact laptops are more likely to have a
>> separate +5V line for the same reason.
>>
>>> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly
>>> specified mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
>>
>>>> the amount of current sourced is limited by
>>>> what the device negotiates from the host.
>>
>>> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>>> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>>> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>>> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>>> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>>> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>>> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>>> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>>> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>>> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
>>
>>>>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>>>>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>>>>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>>>>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>>>>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
>>
>>>> unlikely.
>>
>>> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>>> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>>> in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
>>> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
>>
>> But doesn?t explain why all the sticks get hot.
>
> "a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> to the drives themselves via the USB connector."

Even sillier than you usually manage. That would see the
connector much hotter than the body of the stick itself.

> The socket is the bit in the computer.

Duh.

> If the same socket/s are used,

It isnt. He gets the same problem with more than one computer.

> all the USB memory sticks drawing the same, or similar, currents

They don�t.

> will get hotter than normal.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

> They will also receive less voltage than otherwise
> due to the voltage drop over the resistance of the
> failed solder joint - which is waht causes the heat.

Even sillier than you usually manage with the minimal
current that USB sticks use when doing nothing.
 

0
Rod
10/24/2016 2:51:52 AM

"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in message 
news:231020162203592974%nospam@nospam.invalid...
> In article <nujoip$a48$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> If the USB <insert preferred term> sticks get hot in different
>> computers then the failure isn't in the computer after all. unless
>> the stress under the 5V high voltage has causes parts of them
>> to short and now they're heating up at normal voltage, but
>> it's unlikely that different models would all fail in that
>> way.
>
> getting hot is not necessarily a failure.
>
> some usb sticks run hot. others don't. most get warm. it's normal.

NOT WHEN DOING NOTHING it isnt. 

0
Rod
10/24/2016 2:54:56 AM
On 10-23-2016 20:31, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> No it isn't. The 5V Standby line is to enable the motherboard
> hardware to detect when the power switch is pressed, and on
> many motherboards it is used to power additional functions
> while the computer is off as well.

On my Macbook, unplugging a mouse after putting it to sleep
would wake it up again.
0
Happy
10/24/2016 4:52:51 AM
For your reference, records indicate that 
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> getting hot is not necessarily a failure. 
> 
> some usb sticks run hot. others don't. most get warm. it's normal.

Normal or not, it can still be a contributing factor to failure.  The 
first iPod I got was a HD-based one, and if I left it attached to my 
computer to use as a disk it would get *blazingly* hot.  I did that 
often enough that I have no doubt that it contributed to its drive 
failure.

Likewise, if a particular thumb drive runs hot, maybe it isn’t 
designed to “normally” be constantly attached.  Nobody should make a 
blanket assumption that they know what will and won’t cause a 
specific failure.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


0
Doc
10/24/2016 3:52:43 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> 
>>>>>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to
>>>>>> show if the USB voltage from a computer is too high/low.
>>>>>> If the USB voltage was far too high, the extra energy
>>>>>> would cause excessive heating of the drive.
> 
>>>>> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not
>>>>> be usb compliant, but it would likely fry anything
>>>>> plugged into it, which is expecting a regulated 5v.
> 
>>>> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible
>>>> with Chinese knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean
>>>> due to a failure of the computer hardware.
> 
>>>> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
>>>> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply.
> 
>>> They are in desktops. That's the whole point of the +5V standby line.
> 
>> No it isn't.
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
>> The 5V Standby line is to enable the motherboard hardware
>> to detect when the power switch is pressed, and on many
>> motherboards it is used to power additional functions
>> while the computer is off as well.
> 
> Like the USB so moving the mouse will wake
> the system if you have set it up like that.

Standby 5V isn't there for when the computer is in standby, but
when it's (as far as the user is concerned) powered off - look
it up, or just plug a working power supply in to the mains and
look for the standby 5V even when there's no motherboard attached
and it's in its powered-off state - there'll be 5V on the "standby"
supply line.

Actually, I'm such a nice guy that I've found a link for you:
http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcSoftPower-c.html

>>>> If the internal computer components and the USB ports were
>>>> both subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it
>>>> would be very likely to destroy the computer without the
>>>> user having any time to worry about their USB accessories.
> 
>>> Depends on how much its out by. Certainly if its out by enough
>>> to see what normally stays at room temp get very hot when
>>> doing nothing with just the USB stick plugged in, doing nothing.
> 
>> The maximum voltage ratings would probably only be known
>> by the memory stick IC manufacturers and their clients,
> 
> Wrong again, its obviously in the specs of the ics.

Which most often won't be viewable by the general public.
What's the actual model number of the flash chips in your
memory sticks?

> But again, irrelevant, because even if that was say 7V, that
> isnt going to be enough so the memory sticks that don?t even
> get warm when supplied with 5V when not doing anything
> get very hot when they are supplied with 7V. Basic physics.
> 
>> however 5.5V is a common design maximum.
> 
> Not with the absolute maximum above which you get damage.

Why I said design maximum. Absolute maximums are not always
specified. 7V is common with some families of 5V ICs.

>> 5.25V is the maximum PSU output under the ATX specification.
> 
> Irrelevant to a potential fault situation.

Just perspective.

>>>> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that
>>>> provide the USB 5V from the same lines as everything else,
>>>
>>> That is just plain wrong. Its usually supplied by the +5V standby
>>> line, so you can wake the system by moving the mouse etc.
>>>
>>>> so it is unlikely that an over-voltage situation
>>>> would only affect the USB ports.
>>>
>>> You have that completely backwards.
>>>
>>>> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit
>>>> for the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>>>> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
>>>
>>> In fact laptops are more likely to have a
>>> separate +5V line for the same reason.
>>>
>>>> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly
>>>> specified mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
>>>
>>>>> the amount of current sourced is limited by
>>>>> what the device negotiates from the host.
>>>
>>>> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>>>> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>>>> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>>>> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>>>> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>>>> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>>>> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>>>> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>>>> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>>>> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
>>>
>>>>>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>>>>>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>>>>>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>>>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>>>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>>>>>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>>>>>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
>>>
>>>>> unlikely.
>>>
>>>> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>>>> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>>>> in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
>>>> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
>>>
>>> But doesn?t explain why all the sticks get hot.
>>
>> "a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector."
>
> Even sillier than you usually manage. That would see the
> connector much hotter than the body of the stick itself.

YES. But with it mostly inside the computer, the user is
unlikely to notice that difference.

>> The socket is the bit in the computer.
> 
> Duh.
> 
>> If the same socket/s are used,
> 
> It isnt. He gets the same problem with more than one computer.

Yep, and that bit of information means that this isn't the problem,
so I hereby terminate this argument, my points all adequately
made to the satisfaction of anyone sensible.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/24/2016 9:42:27 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <nujpbk$au4$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
> <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> > 
>> >> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
>> >> the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>> >> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
>> > 
>> > no.
>> 
>> Yes. If the 5V supply circuit was built separately for use by
>> the relatively high current USB devices, it's failure (in this
>> way) would not stop the computer operating. In some cases it
>> might (I won't spend the time spelling it out), but if no USB
>> devices are connected, it won't.
> 
> usb devices are not 'relatively high current'.
> 
> usb originally specified a maximum of 500ma. the usb charging spec can
> go to about 2a, and at 5v, is just 10w.

It is for a laptop with internal hardware designed to conserve power
consumption as much as possible for the longest possible battery
operation time.

>> >> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
>> >> mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
>> > 
>> > no hub was used.
>> 
>> Known now, yes.
> 
> it was known before.

OK, missed it. You did too based on your earlier reply to Ant.

>> >> > the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
>> >> > negotiates from the host.
>> >> 
>> >> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>> >> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>> >> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>> >> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>> >> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>> >> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>> >> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>> >> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>> >> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>> >> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
>> > 
>> > usb devices don't work that way.
>> 
>> OK, so the device can specify roughly the current it needs via
>> the USB protocol, which if you're lucky will be respected by the
>> computer hardware.
> 
> luck has absolutely *nothing* to do with it.
> 
> the usb spec *requires* that a usb peripheral device use *up* *to*
> 100ma and then negotiate higher current requirements, which the usb
> host can deny.
> 
> anything else is not compliant with the usb spec.

Some cheap designs aren't, that's the luck.

>> The current specification isn't accurate
>> enough to prevent damage though, for the reason shown above.
>> The current increase as voltage is increased isn't great enough
>> to trip the limiting.
> 
> no.

Again, YES. You're arguments aren't very convincing.

>> >> >> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>> >> >> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>> >> >> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>> >> >> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>> >> >> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>> >> >> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>> >> >> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
>> >> > 
>> >> > unlikely.
>> >> 
>> >> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>> >> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>> >> in the first place. 
>> > 
>> > broken joints don't get hot. they simply don't work.
>> 
>> Sometimes they simply form a high resistance. Look it up - dry
>> joints.
> 
> they're commonly called cold solder joints, and will cause a device to
> fail not get hot.

They're commonly called as many things as USB memory sticks are, just
look up their failure modes and you'll see that they can get hot. It's
the same as a power plug with corroded/tarnished contacts getting hot.

>> >> It is a less common failure, but it's also
>> >> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
>> > 
>> > it's not uncommon at all. memory sticks are cheap enough to be
>> > considered disposable. sometimes they're even given away for free.
>> 
>> As I remember it, OP figures that he's bought good ones - hence
>> his confusion about the cause of the failure rate.
> 
> it wasn't due to heat.

Maybe not, but they were apparantly getting unusually hot - sounds
like a potential connection to me.

-- 
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#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/24/2016 9:54:24 PM
You might have a bad power supply or need to use a surge supressor.

-- 
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http://realnews.com

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0
Ed
10/24/2016 11:11:59 PM
I'd recommend Muskin Ventura Pro. Has wear levelling and some good 
algorithms against failure. Mine has been great.

BTW The cap snaps onto the end while you're using it.
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0
Ed
10/24/2016 11:16:47 PM
Remembering how FAT32 would get lots of errors and need a fix after Win 
98 crashes, I format all my sticks to NTFS.

It may wear them out a little faster, but I can't conceive of using FAT.

-- 
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0
Ed
10/24/2016 11:19:39 PM
In article <nulaob$a4q$2@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> 
> > getting hot is not necessarily a failure. 
> > 
> > some usb sticks run hot. others don't. most get warm. it's normal.
> 
> Normal or not, it can still be a contributing factor to failure.  The 
> first iPod I got was a HD-based one, and if I left it attached to my 
> computer to use as a disk it would get *blazingly* hot.  I did that 
> often enough that I have no doubt that it contributed to its drive 
> failure.

it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.

> Likewise, if a particular thumb drive runs hot, maybe it isn�t 
> designed to �normally� be constantly attached.  Nobody should make a 
> blanket assumption that they know what will and won�t cause a 
> specific failure.

i'm not making a blanket assumption. i'm saying that a lot of usb flash
drives run warm, sometimes even hot, without any issue. it's not
unusual and not necessarily the reason why something might fail.
0
nospam
10/25/2016 1:01:51 AM
In article <nulvue$1thd$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Computer Nerd Kev
<not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:

> >> >> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit for
> >> >> the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
> >> >> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.
> >> > 
> >> > no.
> >> 
> >> Yes. If the 5V supply circuit was built separately for use by
> >> the relatively high current USB devices, it's failure (in this
> >> way) would not stop the computer operating. In some cases it
> >> might (I won't spend the time spelling it out), but if no USB
> >> devices are connected, it won't.
> > 
> > usb devices are not 'relatively high current'.
> > 
> > usb originally specified a maximum of 500ma. the usb charging spec can
> > go to about 2a, and at 5v, is just 10w.
> 
> It is for a laptop with internal hardware designed to conserve power
> consumption as much as possible for the longest possible battery
> operation time.

nope. laptops can source 1-2a due to the popularity of portable hard
drives and smartphones. 

> >> >> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly specified
> >> >> mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.
> >> > 
> >> > no hub was used.
> >> 
> >> Known now, yes.
> > 
> > it was known before.
> 
> OK, missed it. You did too based on your earlier reply to Ant.

nope.

> >> >> > the amount of current sourced is limited by what the device
> >> >> > negotiates from the host.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
> >> >> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
> >> >> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
> >> >> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
> >> >> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
> >> >> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
> >> >> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
> >> >> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
> >> >> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
> >> >> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?
> >> > 
> >> > usb devices don't work that way.
> >> 
> >> OK, so the device can specify roughly the current it needs via
> >> the USB protocol, which if you're lucky will be respected by the
> >> computer hardware.
> > 
> > luck has absolutely *nothing* to do with it.
> > 
> > the usb spec *requires* that a usb peripheral device use *up* *to*
> > 100ma and then negotiate higher current requirements, which the usb
> > host can deny.
> > 
> > anything else is not compliant with the usb spec.
> 
> Some cheap designs aren't, that's the luck.

luck has nothing to do with it. don't buy crap. simple as that.

and if something is out of spec, anything goes.

> >> The current specification isn't accurate
> >> enough to prevent damage though, for the reason shown above.
> >> The current increase as voltage is increased isn't great enough
> >> to trip the limiting.
> > 
> > no.
> 
> Again, YES. You're arguments aren't very convincing.

however, they're correct.

> >> >> >> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
> >> >> >> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
> >> >> >> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
> >> >> >> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
> >> >> >> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
> >> >> >> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
> >> >> >> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.
> >> >> > 
> >> >> > unlikely.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
> >> >> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
> >> >> in the first place. 
> >> > 
> >> > broken joints don't get hot. they simply don't work.
> >> 
> >> Sometimes they simply form a high resistance. Look it up - dry
> >> joints.
> > 
> > they're commonly called cold solder joints, and will cause a device to
> > fail not get hot.
> 
> They're commonly called as many things as USB memory sticks are, just
> look up their failure modes and you'll see that they can get hot. It's
> the same as a power plug with corroded/tarnished contacts getting hot.

nope. they're almost always called cold solder joints, and these days,
it's exceptionally rare on mass produced products. 

> >> >> It is a less common failure, but it's also
> >> >> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.
> >> > 
> >> > it's not uncommon at all. memory sticks are cheap enough to be
> >> > considered disposable. sometimes they're even given away for free.
> >> 
> >> As I remember it, OP figures that he's bought good ones - hence
> >> his confusion about the cause of the failure rate.
> > 
> > it wasn't due to heat.
> 
> Maybe not, but they were apparantly getting unusually hot - sounds
> like a potential connection to me.

nope.
0
nospam
10/25/2016 1:01:52 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> luck has nothing to do with it. don't buy crap. simple as that.

Which brands of USB flash drives aren't crap then? SanDisk? PNY? 
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ANTant
10/25/2016 4:00:10 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ed Light <nobody@nobody.there> wrote:
> You might have a bad power supply or need to use a surge supressor.

Um, I used more than one computers (desktops and (laptop/notebook)s.
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ANTant
10/25/2016 4:01:36 AM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ed Light <nobody@nobody.there> wrote:
> Remembering how FAT32 would get lots of errors and need a fix after Win 
> 98 crashes, I format all my sticks to NTFS.

> It may wear them out a little faster, but I can't conceive of using FAT.

Even NTFS and HFS failed. :/
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ANTant
10/25/2016 4:02:11 AM
In article <GNWdnXUNqMRXRZPFnZ2dnUU7-NmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
<ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> 
> > luck has nothing to do with it. don't buy crap. simple as that.
> 
> Which brands of USB flash drives aren't crap then? SanDisk? PNY?

name brands.
0
nospam
10/25/2016 4:10:11 AM
In comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <GNWdnXUNqMRXRZPFnZ2dnUU7-NmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:

> > 
> > > luck has nothing to do with it. don't buy crap. simple as that.
> > 
> > Which brands of USB flash drives aren't crap then? SanDisk? PNY?

> name brands.

I used name brands like SanDisk. :P
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ANTant
10/25/2016 4:11:42 AM
On 10/24/2016 9:02 PM, Ant wrote:

>
> Even NTFS and HFS failed. :/

ewww!

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0
Ed
10/25/2016 4:38:16 AM
For your reference, records indicate that 
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.

It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
*briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
constantly used as a Firewire drive.

Stop talking like you’re an authority on all things.  You come 
across like just another nameless idiot when you do that.

> i'm not making a blanket assumption. i'm saying that a lot of usb flash
> drives run warm, sometimes even hot, without any issue. it's not
> unusual and not necessarily the reason why something might fail.

You have no idea what may or may not be “unusual” for any particular 
device when you haven’t even seen the manufacturer’s specs.  Keep 
quiet on such matters until you educate yourself.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


0
Doc
10/25/2016 3:56:43 PM
In article <nunvbr$u0j$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> > it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.
> 
> It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
> *briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
> computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
> constantly used as a Firewire drive.

actually, it was. 

ipods could be put into firewire disk mode which kept the disk spinning
continuously.

spinning up the drive for a few seconds to cache music into memory was
done to extend battery life, not reduce heat.

in fact, apple had planned on ipods being used for portable home
folders in panther. however, that feature was dropped for unknown
reasons, almost certainly due to issues with syncing (which they still
can't get right), not heat.

<http://appleinsider.com/articles/06/10/11/apples_missing_home_on_ipod_f
eature_resurfaces_in_filing>
  "Ever thought you could carry your home in the palm of your hands or
  in your pocket? You can. Panther's Home on iPod feature lets you
  store your home directory - files, folders, apps - on your iPod (or
  any FireWire hard drive) and take it with you wherever you go," Apple
  had written in a blurb on its Panther preview website that was
  eventually removed. 

  "When you find yourself near a Panther-equipped Mac, just plug in the
  iPod, log in, and you're 'home,' no matter where you happen to be,"
  the description continued. "And when you return to your home
  computer, you can synchronize any changes you've made to your files
  by using File Sync, which automatically updates offline changes to
  your home directory."

> Stop talking like you�re an authority on all things.  You come 
> across like just another nameless idiot when you do that.

nothing more than insults. cite facts, if you have any.

> > i'm not making a blanket assumption. i'm saying that a lot of usb flash
> > drives run warm, sometimes even hot, without any issue. it's not
> > unusual and not necessarily the reason why something might fail.
> 
> You have no idea what may or may not be �unusual� for any particular 
> device when you haven�t even seen the manufacturer�s specs.  Keep 
> quiet on such matters until you educate yourself.

neither do you.

a manufacturer is not going to intentionally release a product that
runs outside its own design specs. 

a lot of products run hot without any issue, including hard drives, usb
sticks and many other things. it's almost always normal.

i have a few 7200 rpm hard drives that run so hot i can't even touch
the drive itself. the enclosure gets *very* warm.
0
nospam
10/25/2016 4:33:16 PM
Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote
>>>>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote
>>>>>> Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote

>>>>>>> There are USB voltage meters sold cheaply on Ebay to
>>>>>>> show if the USB voltage from a computer is too high/low.
>>>>>>> If the USB voltage was far too high, the extra energy
>>>>>>> would cause excessive heating of the drive.

>>>>>> if the voltage was too high, not only would it not
>>>>>> be usb compliant, but it would likely fry anything
>>>>>> plugged into it, which is expecting a regulated 5v.

>>>>> I don't mean by design (although anything's possible
>>>>> with Chinese knock-off stuff, if that's involved), I mean
>>>>> due to a failure of the computer hardware.

>>>>> Now the 5V at the USB ports being high would often only make sense
>>>>> if they were supplied by a separate line from the power supply.

>>>> They are in desktops. That's the whole point of the +5V standby line.

>>> No it isn't.

>> Yes it is.

>>> The 5V Standby line is to enable the motherboard hardware
>>> to detect when the power switch is pressed, and on many
>>> motherboards it is used to power additional functions
>>> while the computer is off as well.

>> Like the USB so moving the mouse will wake
>> the system if you have set it up like that.

> Standby 5V isn't there for when the computer is in standby,

Corse it is. You don�t need 2A to be able to
detect that the power button has been pressed.

> but when it's (as far as the user is concerned) powered off
> - look it up, or just plug a working power supply in to the
> mains and look for the standby 5V even when there's no
> motherboard attached and it's in its powered-off state -
> there'll be 5V on the "standby" supply line.

Irrelevant to the fact that its there to power the USB when
the system is turned off so you can turn it on by moving
the mouse, tapping the keyboard, and with wake on lan etc.

> Actually, I'm such a nice guy that I've found a link for you:
> http://www.pcguide.com/ref/power/sup/funcSoftPower-c.html

Irrelevant to what is being discussed, as always with your shit.

>>>>> If the internal computer components and the USB ports were
>>>>> both subjected to a failure of the 5V voltage regulation, it
>>>>> would be very likely to destroy the computer without the
>>>>> user having any time to worry about their USB accessories.

>>>> Depends on how much its out by. Certainly if its out by enough
>>>> to see what normally stays at room temp get very hot when
>>>> doing nothing with just the USB stick plugged in, doing nothing.

>>> The maximum voltage ratings would probably only be known
>>> by the memory stick IC manufacturers and their clients,

>> Wrong again, its obviously in the specs of the ics.

> Which most often won't be viewable by the general public.

Irrelevant.

> What's the actual model number of the flash chips in your memory sticks?

Too hard to get into them and they arent mine to fuck with anyway.

>> But again, irrelevant, because even if that was say 7V, that
>> isnt going to be enough so the memory sticks that don?t even
>> get warm when supplied with 5V when not doing anything
>> get very hot when they are supplied with 7V. Basic physics.

>>> however 5.5V is a common design maximum.

>> Not with the absolute maximum above which you get damage.

> Why I said design maximum. Absolute maximums are not always specified.

Bullshit.

> 7V is common with some families of 5V ICs.

And even that isnt going to see a USB stick that
doesn�t even get warm when doing nothing, get
very hot when supplied with 7V due to a fault.

>>> 5.25V is the maximum PSU output under the ATX specification.

>> Irrelevant to a potential fault situation.

> Just perspective.

Irrelevant waffle, actually.

>>>>> Most desktop PCs have standard power supplies that
>>>>> provide the USB 5V from the same lines as everything else,

>>>> That is just plain wrong. Its usually supplied by the +5V standby
>>>> line, so you can wake the system by moving the mouse etc.

>>>>> so it is unlikely that an over-voltage situation
>>>>> would only affect the USB ports.

>>>> You have that completely backwards.

>>>>> A laptop, however, may have a separate power supply circuit
>>>>> for the USB 5V. If this failed, and supplied too high a voltage, it
>>>>> may not sevierely affect the normal operation of the computer.

>>>> In fact laptops are more likely to have a
>>>> separate +5V line for the same reason.

>>>>> A power-boosted USB hub with a faulty or incorrectly
>>>>> specified mains adapter powering it could also be a culprit.

>>>>>> the amount of current sourced is limited by
>>>>>> what the device negotiates from the host.

>>>>> Current limiting only protects against an over-voltage situation
>>>>> if the device requires more than the minimum current limit (500mA)
>>>>> to be damaged. If an IC in the memory stick normally draws 20mA
>>>>> at 5V, it may draw 28mA at 7V (this based on rough calculations:
>>>>> 5V / 0.02A = 250R   7V / 250R = 0.028A, but it proves the point),
>>>>> however the IC may only be rated to sustain 5.5V, so it may be
>>>>> damaged while only consuming 28mA. The rest of the components
>>>>> in the memory stick will also be drawing additional power, but
>>>>> you see that the total power draw is not increased enough to
>>>>> hit the 500mA maximum if the stick normally draws, say, 100mA?

>>>>>>> Another possibility, if you only ever use one USB port (or a group
>>>>>>> of similarly affected ones) for testing these memory sticks, is
>>>>>>> that a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>>>>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>>>>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector. Here, not only
>>>>>>> the heat, but also the coresponding reduced power to the memory
>>>>>>> stick, may induce irrecoverable write errors or other failures.

>>>>>> unlikely.

>>>>> Such failures are known to occour due to strain on solder joints
>>>>> causing them to break, or joints that weren't correctly soldered
>>>>> in the first place. It is a less common failure, but it's also
>>>>> uncommon to consume large quantities of memory sticks.

>>>> But doesn?t explain why all the sticks get hot.

>>> "a high resistance in the computer's USB socket is causing
>>> the _socket_ to heat up, and the heat is being transferred
>>> to the drives themselves via the USB connector."

>> Even sillier than you usually manage. That would see the
>> connector much hotter than the body of the stick itself.

> YES. But with it mostly inside the computer,
> the user is unlikely to notice that difference.

Bullshit, particularly when they use an
extension so its easier to plug the stick in.

And you only get that sort of result with high
current devices anyway. USB sticks arent.

>>> The socket is the bit in the computer.

>> Duh.

>>> If the same socket/s are used,

>> It isnt. He gets the same problem with more than one computer.

> Yep, and that bit of information means that this isn't
> the problem, so I hereby terminate this argument,

You don�t get to terminate anything, ever.

> my points all adequately made

You never had a point, just flaunted your pig ignorance
and complete lack of any diagnostic skill. 

0
Rod
10/25/2016 7:59:42 PM
In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Ant <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.hardware.storage nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <GNWdnXUNqMRXRZPFnZ2dnUU7-NmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Ant
>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote:
> 
>> > 
>> > > luck has nothing to do with it. don't buy crap. simple as that.
>> > 
>> > Which brands of USB flash drives aren't crap then? SanDisk? PNY?
> 
>> name brands.
> 
> I used name brands like SanDisk. :P

I think he's gone into "say anything that makes him sound right"
mode.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#
0
not
10/25/2016 9:14:46 PM
In message <nunvbr$u0j$1@dont-email.me> 
  Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>> it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.

> It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
> *briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
> computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
> constantly used as a Firewire drive.

It was. In fact, for a good deal of time, my 1st generation ipod was my
bootable installer for OS X.

-- 
Eyes the shady night has shut/Cannot see the record cut And silence
sounds no worse than cheers/After earth has stopped the ears.
0
Lewis
10/26/2016 12:09:04 AM
For your reference, records indicate that 
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <nunvbr$u0j$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > > it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.
> > 
> > It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
> > *briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
> > computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
> > constantly used as a Firewire drive.
> 
> actually, it was. 

You provide no evidence that backs this claim.  Show me some actual 
design specs or I’m done with you.

> ipods could be put into firewire disk mode which kept the disk spinning
> continuously.

I know.  I did it.  It got hot as hell.

> in fact, apple had planned on ipods being used for portable home
> folders in panther. however, that feature was dropped for unknown
> reasons, almost certainly due to issues with syncing (which they still
> can't get right), not heat.

It is a mental error to simply *assume* unknown factors support 
your claim.  Are you also one of those nutters who sees a light in 
the sky they can’t identify and just *knows* that it must be those 
aliens from Blixnor looking to get all probe-y?

Perhaps they dropped it because the *did* try to do a redesign that 
caused it to generate less heat, but failed.  Perhaps they gave up 
for the same reason they stopped allowing iDevices to be seen as 
drives at all.

> > Stop talking like you¹re an authority on all things.  You come 
> > across like just another nameless idiot when you do that.
> 
> nothing more than insults. cite facts, if you have any.

Fact: you use no identifiable name that can linked to anyone with 
expertise on these matters.  Fact: you have no internal or external 
documents from Apple or any of the USB manufacturers discussed here 
regarding their energy usage or heat dissipation.  Fact: it’s not 
an insult to call you out on your BS.

> a manufacturer is not going to intentionally release a product that
> runs outside its own design specs. 

More know-nothing BS talk from you.  Companies like Volkswagen 
will even lie to government regulators about their product’s 
specifications!

> a lot of products run hot without any issue, including hard drives, usb
> sticks and many other things. it's almost always normal.

Except when it isn’t.  You’ve provided no evidence here that it 
*is* normal, or that it won’t affect the lifespan of any of the 
devices in question.  Until you do, you need to speak less if you 
don’t want to look more foolish.

> i have a few 7200 rpm hard drives that run so hot i can't even touch
> the drive itself. the enclosure gets *very* warm.

Where is your evidence that they’re operating in their acceptable 
temperature range?  And, again, it isn’t just about whether or not 
they *exceed* that temperature, but what effect operating at higher 
temperatures can have in general.  Things tend to break more when 
they experience a lot of thermal stress.  To claim otherwise makes 
you seem out of touch with reality.

-- 
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


0
Doc
10/26/2016 5:34:19 PM
On 10-26-2016 12:34, Doc O'Leary wrote:
> caused it to generate less heat, but failed.  Perhaps they gave up
> for the same reason they stopped allowing iDevices to be seen as
> drives at all.

That can still be done.  And although it's not as simple as one would 
like, it's not terribly difficult.
0
Happy
10/26/2016 6:59:33 PM
In message <nuqper$pg7$1@dont-email.me> 
  Doc O'Leary <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

>> In article <nunvbr$u0j$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
>> <droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > > it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.
>> > 
>> > It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
>> > *briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
>> > computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
>> > constantly used as a Firewire drive.
>> 
>> actually, it was. 

> You provide no evidence that backs this claim.  Show me some actual 
> design specs or I’m done with you.

Your poor memory doesn't change the fact that the original Firewire iPod
was specifically marketed as being able to boot your Mac, install OS X,
and operate as an external hard drive. I did it quite a lot, the iPod
was fine for about a decade until I traded it in for a credit on a new
iPod Touch.

-- 
Clicked "Debug" button. Program still has bugs. Wtf? - Rich Seigel
0
Lewis
10/27/2016 12:13:32 AM
In article <nuqper$pg7$1@dont-email.me>, Doc O'Leary
<droleary@2015usenet1.subsume.com> wrote:

> > > > it was defective. hd ipods might get warm but never blazingly hot.
> > > 
> > > It was operating fine *for how it was designed*.  Which was to 
> > > *briefly* use the HD to transfer music either to sync with the 
> > > computer or into RAM to play it.  It was *not* designed to be 
> > > constantly used as a Firewire drive.
> > 
> > actually, it was. 
> 
> You provide no evidence that backs this claim.

you didn't read very far. the evidence was in the post.

> Show me some actual 
> design specs or I�m done with you.

no loss.

> > ipods could be put into firewire disk mode which kept the disk spinning
> > continuously.
> 
> I know.  I did it. 

so did i. 

> It got hot as hell.

no it didn't.

it got warm (as expected for any hard drive), but it did not get hot as
hell unless something was *wrong*.

> > in fact, apple had planned on ipods being used for portable home
> > folders in panther. however, that feature was dropped for unknown
> > reasons, almost certainly due to issues with syncing (which they still
> > can't get right), not heat.
> 
> It is a mental error to simply *assume* unknown factors support 
> your claim.  Are you also one of those nutters who sees a light in 
> the sky they can�t identify and just *knows* that it must be those 
> aliens from Blixnor looking to get all probe-y?
> 
> Perhaps they dropped it because the *did* try to do a redesign that 
> caused it to generate less heat, but failed.  Perhaps they gave up 
> for the same reason they stopped allowing iDevices to be seen as 
> drives at all.

as i said, the *likely* reason they dropped it was because syncing was
problematic, something they still can't get right to this day and with
data that's easier to sync than a user's entire home folder. 




> 
> > i have a few 7200 rpm hard drives that run so hot i can't even touch
> > the drive itself. the enclosure gets *very* warm.
> 
> Where is your evidence that they�re operating in their acceptable 
> temperature range?  And, again, it isn�t just about whether or not 
> they *exceed* that temperature, but what effect operating at higher 
> temperatures can have in general.  Things tend to break more when 
> they experience a lot of thermal stress.  To claim otherwise makes 
> you seem out of touch with reality.

the only one who is out of touch is you. google, in their drive
testing, found that heat was not a major source of drive failure.

in fact, there was a much higher failure rate at *cooler* temperatures,
with a small increase at very hot temps.

<https://tastyresearch.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/drives3.png>
0
nospam
10/27/2016 3:19:13 AM
Reply: