My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and 
successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS 
X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via 
FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the 
PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X). 

I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is 
having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had 
the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the 
troubleshooting formula...)

The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X) 
and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target 
Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with 
black apple. 

(BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer 
says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")

What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried 
resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot 
this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk 
setting. 

I'm going to address the CD drive, but I'd like to find a way to boot the HD 
before I fix the CD.

PowerBook G3/400

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

On Thu, 4 Sep 2003, DaveC wrote:

> My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and
> successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS
> X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via
> FireWire Target Disk Mode.
>
You would probably have better luck copying just OS 9 and trying to boot
into that. OS X doesn't really like being copied about like that (and if
you just copied the stuff accross in the finder you may have missed
certain invisble folders like /bin and not been able to copy other items
due to privilege issues)

Fred

In article <0001HW.BB7D61BF00005C8309F3CC20@news.individual.net>, DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> writes:
>My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and 
>successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS 
>X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via 
>FireWire Target Disk Mode.
>
>Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the 
>PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X). 

You cannot copy an OSX system folder this way. I have no idea if you can do
that with an OS9 system folder under OSX, under OS9 it is no problem.

>I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is 
>having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had 
>the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the 
>troubleshooting formula...)

That's bad.

>The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X) 
>and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target 
>Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with 
>black apple. 

The first question is whether you PowerBook is old enough to boot from OS 9.1.
Provided it is, you have to tell your PowerBook to use the folder in question.
In addition, the folder has to be "blessed", that is, it should be marked by
the system as such a folder.

You may try to boot your Powerbook holding down the "Alt"-key. Then you'll get
a list of available bootable systems.

>(BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer 
>says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")
>
>What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried 
>resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot 
>this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk 
>setting. 

You are aware of the fact that booting and pressing "c" will tell your
PowerBook to boot from CD?

Regards,
   Christoph Gartmann
-- 
 Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452
 Immunbiologie
 Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de
 D-79011  Freiburg, Germany
               http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

In article <0001HW.BB7D61BF00005C8309F3CC20@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> My PowerBook's hard drive crashed. I replaced it with a new one and 
> successfully copied the data (including the old system files: OS 9.2.2 and OS 
> X 10.2.6) from the backup drive onto the new drive using a desktop Mac via 
> FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Is the backup drive bootable?  If so, you could copy its contents to the 
new drive using Carbon Copy Cloner, available via VersionTracker.
> 
> Now the PB won't boot. All I get is the black apple on gray background (the 
> PB was last running -- before the crash -- on OS X). 

Right.  You can't make a bootable copy of OS X by drag copying the drive 
or individual folders.  The copy of OS 9 should be OK.
> 
> I can't boot the OS CD on the PB because my CD-ROM drive, I suspect, is 
> having problems. (I've replaced it with a new combo drive, and haven't had 
> the opportunity to confirm its functionality. It remains an unknown in the 
> troubleshooting formula...)

If you can get booted from anything, you should be able to set the 
startup system to the OS 9 system on the copied-to drive.
> 
> The only option I could see was to delete the system folders (9.2.2 and X) 
> and copy the System Folder from the OS 9.1 CD onto the PB's HD via Target 
> Disk Mode. PB wouldn't boot this copied system; just the gray screen with 
> black apple. 
> 
> (BTW, I can't install OS 9.1 on the PB via Target Disk Mode; the installer 
> says "You must boot the installer CD [on the PB] to install the OS there.")
> 
> What are my options? How can I get this copied system to boot the PB? I tried 
> resetting PRAM. Is there something I can do in the firmware screen to boot 
> this OS? Since I can't boot the OS CD, I can't change the Startup Disk 
> setting. 
> 
> I'm going to address the CD drive, but I'd like to find a way to boot the HD 
> before I fix the CD.
> 
> PowerBook G3/400
> 
> Thanks,

-- 
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 
                   7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has 
Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode.

What makes this OS not visible by the PB's firmware (such that it doesn't 
show up as a boot option when holding the Option key down during boot -- see 
#4 below)?

To answer a few questions posed by replies to my original post:

1. I copied an OS 9.1 system folder to the PB's HD, not an OS X folder.

2. The PB *is* new enough to boot 9.1 (a G3 FireWire "Pismo")

3. I tried holding down the C key at boot time; no joy.

4. I also tried holding down the Option key at boot: I am shown the OS X 
option only. I click the "Continue" arrow, and then get the international 
"No" sign on the screen" (aka the "No joy" sign). I presume that this is 
because I copied backup files using finder copy which, I further presume, 
doesn't copy a lot of invisible files and renders any copied OS files 
impotent. (Since the backup of the original HD was made using Finder copy, I 
have no OS invisible files on the backup drive, so Carbon Copy Cloner isn't a 
solution for me -- now, anyway. Lessons learned for future use of CCC!)

After holding down the Option key, if I click the "Check again" (circular 
arrow) button, no other boot options are presented to me. It (thinks it) sees 
only OS X.

Other suggestions? How the heck can I copy OS 9.1 to this HD and get the darn 
thing to boot?

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:00 -0700, DaveC wrote
(in message <0001HW.BB7E71CC0018349D05E51530@news.individual.net>):

> The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has 
> Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk Mode.

Oops... this is not true. I checked the folder again and it has no "Smiley 
Face" on it. (Sorry for the confusion.)

What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off 
of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy). 

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

In article <0001HW.BB7E7554001908F705E57330@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Sep 2003 17:01:00 -0700, DaveC wrote
> (in message <0001HW.BB7E71CC0018349D05E51530@news.individual.net>):
> 
> > The OS 9.1 system folder I copied to the PB's HD shows it is "blessed" (has 
> > Smiley Face icon) when viewed from desktop Mac via FireWire Target Disk 
> > Mode.
> 
> Oops... this is not true. I checked the folder again and it has no "Smiley 
> Face" on it. (Sorry for the confusion.)
> 
> What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off 
> of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy). 
> 

Beginning somewhere around OS 9, Apple did something so that a copy of  
the System folder from the install disk will not boot a computer even if 
it appears to be blessed.

If you copy your backup copy of OS 9.2.2 to the PB, can you get that 
System folder to show as blessed?  If not, try blessing it by opening 
and closing the System suitcase inside the System folder.  Sometimes 
removing the Finder and then putting it back into the System folder will 
also bless the System folder.

If you have any disk utility disks such as Norton's or DiskWarrior that 
would normally be able to boot the PB, you can copy a System folder from 
one of those disks.

Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and 
install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image.  From there you should be 
able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.

-- 
Matt Broughton
Only relatives are absolute.

> Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and 
> install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image.  From there you should be 
> able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.

I'm willing to try this, but I don't see how that differs from what I tried 
(see below). The PB seems stuck (Startup Disk parameter?) on OS X being the 
OS to boot, even though there is no System Folder or other visible remnant of 
OS X on the internal HD. 

This is my latest attempt:

Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external 
FireWire drive. 

I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I 
tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on 
them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that 
doesn't boot).

I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so 
there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1 
installation.

Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM 
drive???

I will try your suggestion to create a disk image, install the OS there, then 
copy that to the PB's internal HD. I'll report my success.

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

In article <0001HW.BB7E8A17000168A609F24530@news.individual.net>, DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> writes:
>This is my latest attempt:
>
>Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external 
>FireWire drive. 
>
>I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I 
>tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on 
>them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that 
>doesn't boot).

I am not sure whether this PowerBook is able to boot from firewire. 

>I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so 
>there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1 
>installation.
>
>Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM 
>drive???

Try to zap the PRAM. PRAM stores the information from where to boot. Once this
has been cleared the PB should start looking for a bootable system folder and
hopefully find your OS 9.1 folder.

I had to realize that once you have the OSX boot option in PRAM you are no
longer able to boot OS9. The Mac will find the OSX system or part of it and
boot from that one even if it is a corrupted OSX. The same for the option key
during boot, OS9 system folders are not displayed if there is OSX on the same
disk and OSX set in PRAM.

Regards,
   Christoph Gartmann

-- 
 Max-Planck-Institut fuer      Phone   : +49-761-5108-464   Fax: -452
 Immunbiologie
 Postfach 1169                 Internet: gartmann@immunbio.mpg.de
 D-79011  Freiburg, Germany
               http://www.immunbio.mpg.de/home/menue.html

In article <0001HW.BB7E7554001908F705E57330@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> What's required to get this folder to be "blessed"? I copied it directly off 
> of the OS 9.1 install CD (not a copy). 

IIRC, you can bless a System folder by moving the Finder app out of it, 
and then putting it back in.

-- 
              -- Karl J. von Laudermann -- karlvonl(at)rcn.com --
                  -- <http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl/> --
"It will take many years, but [Microsoft] will eventually have to compete. It'll
be a whole new world for them. I'm looking forward to it."- Larry Ellison

Also, when you get the flashing question mark, how long did you wait 
before giving up? Sometimes the machine takes a while to find the System 
folder, until you fix this by actually choosing it from the Startup Disk 
control panel.

-- 
              -- Karl J. von Laudermann -- karlvonl(at)rcn.com --
                  -- <http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl/> --
"It will take many years, but [Microsoft] will eventually have to compete. It'll
be a whole new world for them. I'm looking forward to it."- Larry Ellison

In article <0001HW.BB7E8A17000168A609F24530@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> > Finally, you can make a blank disk image on the desktop machine and 
> > install a copy of OS 9.1 to the disk image.  From there you should be 
> > able to copy that System folder to the PB via Target Disk Mode.
> 
> I'm willing to try this, but I don't see how that differs from what I tried 
> (see below). The PB seems stuck (Startup Disk parameter?) on OS X being the 
> OS to boot, even though there is no System Folder or other visible remnant of 
> OS X on the internal HD. 
> 
> This is my latest attempt:
> 
> Using my desktop Mac, I installed (not copied) OS 9.1 onto an external 
> FireWire drive.

As you have installed OS 9.1 onto an external disk, you could copy that 
System folder over to the PowerBook.  Installing to an external disk 
produces the same results as installing to a disk image. 
> 
> I connected this drive to the PowerBook, and powered on the PB. Nothing. I 
> tried Cmd-Opt-Shift-Delete: nothing flashing folders w/ question marks on 
> them. I held down the Option key: nothing but the (partial) OS X option (that 
> doesn't boot).

Does the PB support booting from a firewire disk?  I always get confused 
as to when that became available.

> I even threw out the old system folders (before installing a new OS 9.1), so 
> there is only one System folder on the PB's HD, which contains the new 9.1 
> installation.
> 
> Is there *anyway* to get this #*)&^% computer to boot OS 9.1 w/o a CD-ROM 
> drive???
> 
Perhaps this might be a case where resetting the open firmware may help.  
You can follow the directions in Apple KB article at 
<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642>
You will need to reinstall any firmware updates that you previously 
installed after resetting the open firmware.

The other thought I had (excuse me if I forgot some of what you already 
said you tried) would be to make sure that there are no peripherals 
connected to the PB after you have a bootable OS 9.1 system folder on 
it.  This would include removing the replacement CD-ROM drive and/or 
perhaps the defective CD-ROM drive.  I have had my computer get hung up 
trying to startup for no apparent reason.  After I removed all USB 
devices, it worked fine.

-- 
Matt Broughton
Only relatives are absolute.

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 7:57:36 -0700, Karl von Laudermann wrote
(in message <karlvonl-B7CFB3.10573606092003@reader1.news.rcn.net>):

> IIRC, you can bless a System folder by moving the Finder app out of it, 
> and then putting it back in.

I did this. No joy.
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 8:32:28 -0700, Matt Broughton wrote
(in message <walterwego-E98C0F.10322806092003@corp.supernews.com>):

> As you have installed OS 9.1 onto an external disk, you could copy that 
> System folder over to the PowerBook.  Installing to an external disk 
> produces the same results as installing to a disk image. 

I installed OS 9 (clean install) onto a 500 MB disk image. Then copied it to 
the PB's internal HD via FireWire Target Disk Mode. Tried booting. No joy.

> Does the PB support booting from a firewire disk?  I always get confused 
> as to when that became available.

I don't know either. Too burned out on this problem to do much more research 
on Apple's Support site. Maybe later...

> Perhaps this might be a case where resetting the open firmware may help.  
> You can follow the directions in Apple KB article at 
> <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=42642>
> You will need to reinstall any firmware updates that you previously 
> installed after resetting the open firmware.

I think I'll try this next. I've saved all firmware updates.

> The other thought I had (excuse me if I forgot some of what you already 
> said you tried) would be to make sure that there are no peripherals 
> connected to the PB after you have a bootable OS 9.1 system folder on 
> it.  This would include removing the replacement CD-ROM drive and/or 
> perhaps the defective CD-ROM drive.  I have had my computer get hung up 
> trying to startup for no apparent reason.  After I removed all USB 
> devices, it worked fine.

Tried: 
Booting with no peripherals. No joy.
Booting from external FireWire HD. No joy.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 8:00:00 -0700, Karl von Laudermann wrote
(in message <karlvonl-5400CF.11000006092003@reader1.news.rcn.net>):

> Also, when you get the flashing question mark, how long did you wait 
> before giving up? Sometimes the machine takes a while to find the System 
> folder, until you fix this by actually choosing it from the Startup Disk 
> control panel.

Waited half an hour, once.
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 5:30:05 -0700, Christoph Gartmann wrote
(in message <bjck0d$k26$1@n.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>):

> Try to zap the PRAM. PRAM stores the information from where to boot. Once 
> this
> has been cleared the PB should start looking for a bootable system folder and
> hopefully find your OS 9.1 folder.

I've reset PRAM so many times the P, R, Opt, and Cmd keys have their letters 
worn off :-)

> I had to realize that once you have the OSX boot option in PRAM you are no
> longer able to boot OS9. The Mac will find the OSX system or part of it and
> boot from that one even if it is a corrupted OSX. The same for the option key
> during boot, OS9 system folders are not displayed if there is OSX on the same
> disk and OSX set in PRAM.

This is why I suspect that resetting Open Firmware is my only option left.

Thanks,
-- 
Dave C.
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

Certain ("new world") Macintosh computers do not have a ROM chip on-board, 
but instead have the ROM code loaded in at boot time. For these computers, 
the System Folder must include the file "Mac OS ROM". The System Folder I 
installed on my PB via Target Disk Mode (my CD-ROM drive is dead) did not.

This is why it wouldn't recognize the System Folder when I tried to boot it. 
Once I copied the Mac OS ROM file to the folder, it booted.

Now, why the installer CD (operated from my desktop Mac via Target Disk Mode) 
wouldn't install the ROM file I can't figure out. When creating an external 
boot disk that should be able to boot *any* Mac, this file -- to my mind -- 
shouild be included.

Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion and solution. 
-- 
Dave C
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

In article <0001HW.BB8333CE00093FE9102510B0@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> Certain ("new world") Macintosh computers do not have a ROM chip on-board, 
> but instead have the ROM code loaded in at boot time.

Incorrect.  All Macs have a ROM on the main logic board.  Without it, 
the CPU wouldn't know how to do a damned thing -- it couldn't read 
anything from the hard drive, it couldn't process keystrokes, it 
couldn't draw things on the screen, it couldn't even ask for a boot 
disk.  All it could do is sit there wasting electricity.  It needs a ROM 
with enough code to tell it how to look for a boot disk and read the 
boot sector.

The misleadingly-named "ROM" file on the hard disk just overrides the 
real ROM *after* the computer has booted up enough to be able to read 
the file.


> Now, why the installer CD (operated from my desktop Mac via Target 
> Disk Mode) wouldn't install the ROM file I can't figure out. When 
> creating an external boot disk that should be able to boot *any* Mac, 
> this file -- to my mind -- shouild be included.

Well, yes, it should include that file if you *tell* it that you want 
the disk to be bootable on any Mac.  Just because a disk is external, 
doesn't necessarily mean the owner wants to use it on other Macs.

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:03:30 -0700, Wayne C. Morris wrote
(in message <wayne.morris-E15A65.13032909092003@shawnews.wp.shawcable.net>):

> Well, yes, it should include that file if you *tell* it that you want 
> the disk to be bootable on any Mac.  Just because a disk is external, 
> doesn't necessarily mean the owner wants to use it on other Macs.

OK, let's pick nits! 

The installer has no way to specify that the drive I'm installing on is to be 
used on *any number* of computers, and therfore *must* include the Mac OS ROM 
file. 

There.
-- 
Dave C
dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com

In article <0001HW.BB8429930042FDF7102510B0@news.individual.net>,
 DaveC <dave-usenet3016@mailblocks.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:03:30 -0700, Wayne C. Morris wrote
> (in message <wayne.morris-E15A65.13032909092003@shawnews.wp.shawcable.net>):
> 
> > Well, yes, it should include that file if you *tell* it that you want 
> > the disk to be bootable on any Mac.  Just because a disk is external, 
> > doesn't necessarily mean the owner wants to use it on other Macs.
> 
> OK, let's pick nits! 
> 
> The installer has no way to specify that the drive I'm installing on is to be 
> used on *any number* of computers,

Really? I haven't paid a whole lot of attention recently, but I have a 
distinct memory that Apple's OS installers for years let you specify 
either "this machine" or "any machine." That would count as a number in 
my book. Is that option no longer present?

> and therfore *must* include the Mac OS ROM file.

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 18:51:14 +0100, DaveC wrote:
>> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 7:57:36 -0700, Karl von Laudermann wrote:
> 
>> IIRC, you can bless a System folder by moving the Finder app out of it, 
>> and then putting it back in.
> 
> I did this. No joy.

Have you tried updating the disk driver with Drive Setup, and then setting 
the drive to boot from in the Startup Disk control panel?

If it still won't boot up, then you may have to reformat in OS 9, and 
reinstall from CD. I hope you've done a backup.
-- 
Regards,
Micheal Hutchison
Email: MadMike@graphixmad.plus.com
Mac-Troubleshooter+OE FAQ: www.graphixmad.plus.com

"Wayne C. Morris" <wayne.morris@this.is.invalid> writes:
> 
> Incorrect.  All Macs have a ROM on the main logic board.  Without
> it, the CPU wouldn't know how to do a damned thing -- it couldn't
> read anything from the hard drive, it couldn't process keystrokes,
> it couldn't draw things on the screen, it couldn't even ask for a
> boot disk.  All it could do is sit there wasting electricity.  It
> needs a ROM with enough code to tell it how to look for a boot disk
> and read the boot sector.
> 
> The misleadingly-named "ROM" file on the hard disk just overrides
> the real ROM *after* the computer has booted up enough to be able to
> read the file.

Partially correct.

Old Macs (going all the way back to the 128) had a large library of
"toolbox" routines in ROM.  These routines handled all sorts of stuff
that we tend to associate with operating system library functions
today.  Over the years, the contents of this ROM got bigger and
bigger, as more and more features were incorporated into the toolbox.

The New World architecture eliminates all of this, reducing the ROM
back down to just the code necessary to boot the OS, and other
boot-time features (like the OpenFirmware password code).  The rest
of the toolbox was moved into the "ROM" file as part of the OS.

The name is actually pretty accurate - that file contains code that
used to be stored in ROM under the older architectures.

-- David

Gregory Weston <gwestonREMOVE@CAPSattbi.com> writes:
>> 
>> The installer has no way to specify that the drive I'm installing
>> on is to be used on *any number* of computers,
> 
> Really? I haven't paid a whole lot of attention recently, but I have
> a distinct memory that Apple's OS installers for years let you
> specify either "this machine" or "any machine." That would count as
> a number in my book. Is that option no longer present?

I don't remember such an option when I installed 10.2.

I do remember (perhaps incorrectly) such an option when I installed 8
on my Quadra.  I definitely know that it exists for systems 6 and 7.

Don't know about 9, 10.0 and 10.1 - I never installed them (9.22 and
10.1 were preloaded on my Mac and I never had to reinstall either.)

-- David

> "Wayne C. Morris" <wayne.morris@this.is.invalid> writes:
>> 
>> Incorrect.  All Macs have a ROM on the main logic board.  Without
>> it, the CPU wouldn't know how to do a damned thing -- it couldn't
>> read anything from the hard drive, it couldn't process keystrokes,
>> it couldn't draw things on the screen, it couldn't even ask for a
>> boot disk.  All it could do is sit there wasting electricity.  It
>> needs a ROM with enough code to tell it how to look for a boot disk
>> and read the boot sector.


True for the most part, but you can have a computer that operates without
any kind of ROM. Many years ago, I ran a computer that required loading a
basic boot program into memory through a set of front panel switches. You
set the binary address and the memory contents for each instruction. This
loaded another program from punched tape that was smart enough to read from
the hard disks. Ah- the good old days when 16KB was a lot of memory.

Bob Haar writes:
> 
> True for the most part, but you can have a computer that operates
> without any kind of ROM. Many years ago, I ran a computer that
> required loading a basic boot program into memory through a set of
> front panel switches. You set the binary address and the memory
> contents for each instruction. This loaded another program from
> punched tape that was smart enough to read from the hard disks.

Toggle switches for the boot loader.  Lots of old systems did that.
IIRC, the DEC PDP-8 did.  So did the MITS Altair.  I think most
systems from the dawn of compuing did.

> Ah- the good old days when 16KB was a lot of memory.

That would've been about when I got my TRS-80 CoCo.  Had to justify
getting the 16K model instead of the 4K model.  Of course, with the OS
in ROM (well, a BASIC interpreter,) 4K actually is enough to do some
interesting things.

-- David

In article <m2brtscg00.fsf@qqqq.invalid>, shamino@techie.com (David C.) 
wrote:

> I don't remember such an option when I installed 10.2.
> 
> I do remember (perhaps incorrectly) such an option when I installed 8
> on my Quadra.  I definitely know that it exists for systems 6 and 7.
> 
> Don't know about 9, 10.0 and 10.1 - I never installed them (9.22 and
> 10.1 were preloaded on my Mac and I never had to reinstall either.)
> 
> -- David

I have a vague belief that 10.x doesn't use it at all. It's in the 9 
System Folder and you don't have to have a 9 install.

G

In article <BB854744.487E7%bobhaar@comcast.net>,
 Bob Haar <bobhaar@comcast.net> wrote:

> True for the most part, but you can have a computer that operates 
> without any kind of ROM.

I did say "all Macs", not "all computers".


> Many years ago, I ran a computer that required loading a basic boot 
> program into memory through a set of front panel switches. You set 
> the binary address and the memory contents for each instruction. This 
> loaded another program from punched tape that was smart enough to 
> read from the hard disks. Ah- the good old days when 16KB was a lot 
> of memory.

Ah, yes, I remember those.  And a row of LEDs so you could examine the 
contents of memory the same way, one byte at a time.  Back in the days 
when "building your own computer" meant soldering all the parts onto a 
circuit board.  And sometimes etching your own circuit board.

I wonder if anyone still makes ROMless computers with toggle switches 
for manual data entry?  I haven't seen one since the days of the 
Commodore PET and the Apple ][.

In article 
<wayne.morris-205253.12365811092003@shawnews.wp.shawcable.net>,
 "Wayne C. Morris" <wayne.morris@this.is.invalid> wrote:

> In article <BB854744.487E7%bobhaar@comcast.net>,
>  Bob Haar <bobhaar@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > True for the most part, but you can have a computer that operates 
> > without any kind of ROM.
> 
> I did say "all Macs", not "all computers".
> 
> 
> > Many years ago, I ran a computer that required loading a basic boot 
> > program into memory through a set of front panel switches. You set 
> > the binary address and the memory contents for each instruction. This 
> > loaded another program from punched tape that was smart enough to 
> > read from the hard disks. Ah- the good old days when 16KB was a lot 
> > of memory.

How about 10 K (decimal) of six-bit characters and 200 of those given to 
the add/subtract tables because the machine couldn't.  I'm talking about 
the IBM 1620 and RCA 301.

> 
> Ah, yes, I remember those.  And a row of LEDs so you could examine the 
> contents of memory the same way, one byte at a time.  Back in the days 
> when "building your own computer" meant soldering all the parts onto a 
> circuit board.  And sometimes etching your own circuit board.

LEDs?  Naw; maybe neon bulbs or nixies or even, incandesent.
> 
> I wonder if anyone still makes ROMless computers with toggle switches 
> for manual data entry?  I haven't seen one since the days of the 
> Commodore PET and the Apple ][.

-- 
Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 
                   7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

In article <BB854744.487E7%bobhaar@comcast.net>,
 Bob Haar <bobhaar@comcast.net> wrote:

> True for the most part, but you can have a computer that operates 
> without any kind of ROM.


Actually, the DEC 11/780 had no ROM at all. 

MOST CPU's are microcoded, that is there is a ROM that converts 
the instruction set to internal hardware signals. On the VAX,
the microcode was in RAM, so you had to load the instruction set
before you could even load the boot program.

DEC sent microcode for the VAX instruction set on an 8" floppy.
The "console" for the VAX was a 8 bit computer that had 
direct access to the VAX CPU. The console read the microcode from 
the floppy into the special RAM, then it loaded the boot program,
and reset the VAX.

DEC considered this a feature. They never had to issue an
a CPU erratta sheet, they just gave you an architecture upgrade.

KLK

In comp.sys.mac.misc KLK <klknineteen@interfold.com> wrote:
> Actually, the DEC 11/780 had no ROM

for its VAX processor.

> at all. 

Because it didn't need it; the "Console Microprocessor" on the CPU (board)
that had its own ROM. That doesn't count.

> MOST CPU's are microcoded, that is there is a ROM that converts 
> the instruction set to internal hardware signals. On the VAX,
> the microcode was in RAM

Not all of it (at least not on the VAX 11/780 in my cellar), only patches
and special features. It just needed as many patches as a comtemporary
Pentium III.

> DEC considered this a feature.

Me too. And Intel obviously too.


Noses.