Hi all,

Last year I bought a used PowerMac G4 (Dual 866 with 768 Megs/Ram -
OSX Jaguar) from a friend, and for the longest time it mainly sat idle
only be using used as either a backup PC or for MS Office when needed
(I don't run Windows at home).

Well last week the HD in my linux box crashed (data on seperate HD so
all's good), but before reinstalling I decided to give the Mac a shot
as my primary PC for a while.  Since Friday (through weekend) I did
all my work on the Mac, posted items on Ebay, digital pics from
vacation, web and graphic design, you name it... and I'm VERY
impressed.  I'm liking this system more and more to the point of
switching to it as my main box and keeping Linux on the back burner.

I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80
well before high school, and I've used MS stuff since MS-DOS 3.3 and
Windows since Win 3.1.  I dropped any type of MS operating system
about 3 years ago at home because of its unstability and tendencty to
be crapware and switched to Linux which I've been more then happy
with.  Now that I've given OSX a try, I'm really liking it.  The last
time I used a Mac to any great length was the old Mac Classics in high
school.

I do have a few questions for those seasoned users out there:

1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
work.

2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
shell out the $130 fer it.

3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
not long ago.

4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
too $$$ for my budget.

5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
client.

Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
will definately be a key system in my home office.  I've always herd
once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

- Ringo -

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 
> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.
 Should work. You will want to find out how to access the special 
features like CD eject, sound mute and volume. I know it's possible but 
I don't know what key combinations do it.
> 
> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.
 I found Panther well worth the money I paid for it. Yes Expos� is nice, 
but what I like best is the long list of little fixes and improvements, 
including the new Finder windows. It also networks even better with PCs.

> 
> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.
 Unless you need ultimate gaming performance, consider just adding a PCI 
video card and keep using the card you have now. Unlike Windows you get 
full multi monitor support even if you use separate cards. You can 
spread your desktop across several monitors whether they are beside each 
other or stacked vertically.

> 
> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.
 I'll watch for replies to your query because I am looking for a new 
mail client myself. I can recommend mt-newswatcher for news. Free and 
very nice to use. If you don't like its style, there are lots of others.
-- 
....      Al Quirt      ...      Ottawa Canada      ...
.... Please remove anti-spam BIRD for email replies ...

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>, Ringo
Langly <rlangly@gmail.com> wrote:

> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

keyboards are a subjective thing. buy a usb keyboard you find
comfortable. the only issue is the command key might be in a different
place.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.
 
tiger won't be out for 9 months or so ('first half of 2005'). it is up
to you if you want to wait that long. and whatever follows tiger will
be another 18 months or so. 

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

plenty of resellers on line. most of them advertise on various mac
related web pages. 

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.

yes.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

eh, why not get eudora if you want a eudora-like app?

Ringo Langly wrote:
> Windows since Win 3.1.  I dropped any type of MS operating system
> about 3 years ago at home because of its unstability and tendencty to
> be crapware and switched to Linux which I've been more then happy

Although I share your opinion of MS, out of fairness,
I should mention that NT and 2000 are miles ahead of
3.1, 95, 98, etc. in that area.

-- 
Wes Groleau

    MS: I'm not sure which I'd rather have:
        MicroSoft or Multiple Sclerosis?

>I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80
>well before high school,...

Hey! Another TRS-80 guy...I got started on TRS-80s in 1977, and I've owned a
total of 12 or 13 of 'em, including a TRS-80 laptop (which I just sold on eBay
a couple months back).

>1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
>about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
>but anyone have experience?

It'll work, though it may do some funny key mappings, since MS keyboards lack a
"command" key but include a "windows" key and often a "menu" key.

>2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?

I personally believe it is. Panther is, in my experience, significantly faster
than Jaguar, particularly on lower-end machines. The new Safari, which requires
Panther, is a very nice browser. Expose is...well, once you get used to using
Expose, it's hard to be without it.

>3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
>we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
>not long ago.

Commercial: MacMall. Shareware/freeware: versiontracker.com.

>4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 

Yes. Be careful, though; you need AGP video cards with Mac drivers. PC AGP
cards which lack Mac driver software won't work. Some people have reported
problems between some AGP cards from ATI and some versions of OS X; you can
probabl find details on macfixit.com or macfixitforums.com.

>5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
>basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
>full featured, any others out there that blow it away?

Eudora is available for OS X; personally, I use Mail.app.


-- 
Art, literature, shareware, polyamory, kink, and more:
http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

Alan Quirt <HERONaquirt@sympatico.ca> writes:

> In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
>  rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> > 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> > basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> > full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> > Eudora-like app?...

>  I'll watch for replies to your query because I am looking for a new 
> mail client myself....

I'm also a fairly recent (approx 9 months in my case) switcher from
Linux to Mac OS-X.  Still have several Linux boxes around (between
home and work) and don't expect that to change soon.  Hard to beat
Linux on commodity PC hardware for pure bang/dollars.  And at home,
there are some games that are only available on Windows (dual boot on
my Linux boxes).  But the Mac is what is connected to the nice monitor
centered in from of me at work, while the Linux box sits over on the
side - seems like this is a sign.  Anyway, back on subject...

If you want Eudora-like, I suppose I ought to mention Eudora as
an option.  It occurs to me that you might not be aware that there
is a version of Eudora for the Mac, so the mention is more than
just rhetorical.

I've recently switched to Mulberry (www.cyrusoft.com) as a mail reader.
Some pluses and minuses.  I won't claim it is the end-all-be-all
solution.  But one of the pluses is a free trial period.  Another
significant plus to me is that it has Mac, Linux, and Windows
versions.  On different occasions, it is convenient for me to use
each of those, and a single license works for all.  They also have
a Solaris version, but I don't read email on any of my Solaris box
accounts (so have several at work).

(One of the minor minuses is that although the Mac version works on
OS X, it shows some older Mac roots.  For one particular, it saves text
files in the "wrong" form.  Easy enough to write a one-line script
to fix them, but sort of annoying that you have to.)

Apple's Mail.app isn't too shabby either. I tried it for a while.
Did decide to switch to Mulberry, but I could probably have lived
with Mail.app like my daughter does.

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what 
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work, 
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards 
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of 
> work.

Sounds like you have one of the older keyboards.  Just about any USB 
keyboard should work with your G4.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for 
> Tiger instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too 
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to 
> shell out the $130 fer it.

It is most probably worth it.  Tiger won't be out until sometime between 
January and June of next year.

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store 
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down 
> not long ago.

Apple's on-line store has a small selection.  There are quite a few, but 
I don't recall their names offhand--we have enough brick and mortar 
stores locally to me.  Also, check versiontracker.com for shareware and 
for free updates for commercial software.

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but 
> I need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors 
> are too $$$ for my budget.

I don't know whether there are dual monitor cards, but you can always 
use two single monitor cards.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the 
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems 
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a 
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email 
> client.

I use Apple's mail.app; it's not perfect, but I prefer it to any of the 
others I've tried.  But if someone ever manages to get ahold of Claris 
Emailer and carbonize it, I'd most likely switch to it.  The only reason 
I dropped it in the first place is because it didn't run natively on OS 
X.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Vote for John Kerry.

Alan Quirt <HERONaquirt@sympatico.ca> writes:
> In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
>  rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> > 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> > instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> > Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> > shell out the $130 fer it.
>  I found Panther well worth the money I paid for it. Yes Expos� is nice, 
> but what I like best is the long list of little fixes and improvements, 
> including the new Finder windows. It also networks even better with PCs.

Fast User switching - letting one user remain logged on
at the console and switching to another user without
having to log out and shut down everything the first
user was doing - is huge.

> > 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using
> > the basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it
> > seems full featured, any others out there that blow it away?
> > Maybe a Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS
> > email client.

I can't say that I like Eudora in the slightest, but
it's certainly out there for OS X.  There are many
many mail client options and the best thing to do
is try a few out and see which works with your workstyle.
It's a lot easier to give several different clients
a serious test drive if you use IMAP and can just point
them all at the same mail account (no import/export of
messages involved), however that does mean that Mailsmith
is not an option (and some folks really love Mailsmith).

I use both Mail.app and Thunderbird.  (and emacs/gnus).
I've tried such others as GnuMail, PowerMail, Mulberry
and probably a couple of others, but end up back with
Mail.app and Thunderbird each time.

-- 
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! --    http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
   http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 13:08:56 -0400, Michelle Steiner wrote
(in article <michelle-790FA8.10085619072004@news.east.cox.net>):

> But if someone ever manages to get ahold of Claris Emailer and 
> carbonize it, I'd most likely switch to it.  The only reason I 
> dropped it in the first place is because it didn't run natively on OS 
> X. 

when Apple dropped support and development for Emailer, I started 
looking for an alternative, and the closest that came to Emailer 
interface and functionality wise was Powermail.

Of course, now after few years Powermail is quite different from the 
original Emailer interface, but it's still the closest and the best to 
suite my usage habits.

-- 
J Brady

Ringo Langly wrote:
> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

http://www.versiontracker.com/  (click the OS X tab)
http://www.osxgnus.com/         (a little dated, due to health problems)

And, maybe not the best source, but certainly easy to find:
Click on the Apple in the upper left corner of your screen
and pick the third menu item.  :-)

-- 
Wes Groleau
-----------
Curmudgeon's Complaints on Courtesy:
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy1.html
(Not necessarily my opinion, but worth reading)

> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

Any USB keyboard will "work", as in the standard ASCII keys will do 
their job.  Special features may not, but most keyboard manufacturers 
invlude Mac driver software, inlcuing Microsoft and Logitech.  As long 
as it says "Mac" on the box you're okay.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

It depends on your budget.  Panther has run every Mac I've sued faster 
than previous OSX installations so far, and some of the features are 
very nice.  But if you don't want to spend $130, I'm sure you could make 
it to Tiger's release :)

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

You can try Apple's site and navigate to "third party software", but you 
will be paying the retail price even for older stuff.  Give eBay a try 
if you can't find discounted stuff anywhere else.  But if you do a 
Google search on "Mac software" you'll find a few places.

Here's a few Mac applications I recommend:
open office http://www.openoffice.org
acqusition http://www.acquisitionx.com
cocktail http://www.macosxcocktail.com
fire http://fire.sourceforge.net

Richard Maine wrote:
> (One of the minor minuses is that although the Mac version works on
> OS X, it shows some older Mac roots.  For one particular, it saves text
> files in the "wrong" form.  Easy enough to write a one-line script
> to fix them, but sort of annoying that you have to.)

What I would _really_ like to make happen is for everything
in the system (text file contents and names, etc.)
be written/read/displayed as UTF-8 and not have to keep
switching the keyboard back to Unicode Hex Input every
time I change windows or open a new one.

Terminal prefs have a couple of selectors that say UTF-8
but even when I KNOW a file is stored that way, 'cat'
screws it up on screen.

It would also be nice if OTHER systems wouldn't take
a newspost tagged as UTF-8, re-tag it ISOLatin-1,
and then pass on the UTF-8 contents unchanged.

But on the Mac itself, it really bites to always
re-convert/re-select things when going between two Apps
that can both handle UTF-8 or between two documents
that are both already in UTF-8.  Or to call up Textedit
just to read files when I'm working with them on command line.

-- 
Wes Groleau

    In any formula, constants (especially those obtained
    from handbooks) are to be treated as variables.

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

I'm using the Logitech cordless Desktop MX combo, works great.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Panther rocks, but the decision is yours.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

Eudora is quite Eudora-like. :) I use Mail though.

> Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
> will definately be a key system in my home office.  I've always herd
> once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

:)

-- 
Sandman[.net]

In article <cdh08u02tj9@news2.newsguy.com>,
 Jonathan Brady <jbrady@removethisspamkiller.myfmail.com> wrote:

> > But if someone ever manages to get ahold of Claris Emailer and 
> > carbonize it, I'd most likely switch to it.  The only reason I 
> > dropped it in the first place is because it didn't run natively on OS 
> > X. 
> 
> when Apple dropped support and development for Emailer, I started 
> looking for an alternative, and the closest that came to Emailer 
> interface and functionality wise was Powermail.

Yup, I tried it also, but didn't like it.  I've tried it again since 
then, but still didn't like it.

I've tried a few email applications since switching to OS X, and I just 
keep coming back to mail.app.

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Vote for John Kerry.

In article <m1y8lgexxq.fsf@macfortran.local>,
 Richard Maine <nospam@see.signature> wrote:

> (One of the minor minuses is that although the Mac version works on 
> OS X, it shows some older Mac roots.  For one particular, it saves 
> text files in the "wrong" form.  Easy enough to write a one-line 
> script to fix them, but sort of annoying that you have to.)

What do you mean by "'wrong' form"?

-- 
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease:  Vote for John Kerry.

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.

There's probably no need to upgrade the video.  You likely already have 
a card that supports two displays.  Graphics cards available for that 
model should have been the NVIDIA GeForce4 MX graphics card with 32MB of
DDR SDRAM or the ATI Radeon 9000 Pro graphics card with 64MB of
DDR SDRAM or the NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti graphics card with 128MB of
DDR SDRAM (build-to-order option).  All support two displays from what I 
know of those cards.  You just might need this:

<http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0117-ADCV>

to get the VGA out of the ADC connector.  It's listed there for $25 but 
you might be able to find it cheaper from other vendors.

All the ADC connector is, is a DVI connector that has power and USB 
running through it also.

Greg B.

PS.  Although if you're into high resolutions, you might want to upgrade 
to a video card with more memory on it, especially if you have a 32MB 
card.  This information can be found by clicking on the Apple menu, 
selecting 'About This Mac' and then clicking on the 'More Info' button 
to get Apple System Profiler to run.  Graphic card info will be under 
the 'Devices and Volumes' tab.

-- 
Actual e-mail address is gbuchner and I'm located at mn.rr.com

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> writes:

> In article <m1y8lgexxq.fsf@macfortran.local>,
>  Richard Maine <nospam@see.signature> wrote:
> 
> > (One of the minor minuses is that although the Mac version works on 
> > OS X, it shows some older Mac roots.  For one particular, it saves 
> > text files in the "wrong" form.  Easy enough to write a one-line 
> > script to fix them, but sort of annoying that you have to.)
> 
> What do you mean by "'wrong' form"?

Well, details didn't seem worth posting here, but since you ask...

It saves files with CR as line ends instead of LF.  The CR is an old
Mac OS 9 (and earlier) convention.  OS X being at heart a Unix (or
Unix-like if you prefer) system, LF is the "native" line ending.
Lots of the Unix tools don't deal well with the CR endings.  As
I said, easy enough to fix with a one-line script, but I do find
myself needing to fix it.

Being able to use all the Unix tools on the same system as I have
a decent, well-integrated GUI is one of the attractions to MAc OS-X
to me.  I was not at all a Mac person before, but OS X has drawn
me over.

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) writes:

> I do have a few questions for those seasoned users out there:
>
> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Panther was a bump in usability and speed.  IMHO it's worth getting,
Tiger will be a while yet.

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

There are a lot.  I have had good success with Small Dog and others.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

Well, there's Eudora for example.  :-)  I use Mail, it satisfies all
my e-mail needs quite nicely.  I used Eudora a long time ago and it's
gotten to be like using a sledgehammer to shell walnuts for users
like me.  And if you were an Emacs user under GNU/Linux, you have all
those options as well under OS X (just remember OS X is BSD-ish).

In comp.sys.mac.system Ringo Langly <rlangly@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

I think so, but its really a personal decision. For me, the ability
to tile windows a la Expose is worth every penny of that $130. What
you do with your money is your business, of course, There are plenty
of other new features in Panther. Check Apple's web site for info.

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

Try http://www.apple.com for starters. 

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

One thing other posters neglected to mention is the optimisation of 
Panther - on the same hardware it has a LOT more zip and is streamlined 
in many other ways (e.g. integration of preferences and settings).  
Better standards support too (e.g. X11 client is way better integrated).  
And Expose is excellent, can't be beaten for those irritating situations 
where you can't get to something due to lots of open work.

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.

Matrox do versions of their dual-head cards for the Mac OS.  As other 
posters mentioned, if you have two connectors on your AGP card you can 
already plug in a second monitor with an adaptor.  If you don't need 
performance, any bog-standard PCI card which is OS-X compliant can be 
thrown in a slot and will integrate seamlessly with your current display 
(score one for Apple).  Even cards not supported by OS X can sometimes 
be forced to work using a startup command which makes them run using 
their own firmware.

> Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
> will definately be a key system in my home office.  I've always herd
> once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

Same thing happened with me - once you get used to things working 
elegantly it's difficult to accept the haphazard standards of Windows.

         Matthew.

Ringo Langly wrote:
> 
> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

There are lots of online sources. Quite frequently I find that the 
software publishers offer their wares on their own web sites. So if you 
know what you want, try the publisher first. If you are looking to meet 
some need, just Google it.

Several good sources have been mentioned by others. I would add Mac 
Connection (www.macconnection.com). They have been around almost as long 
as the Mac, and they offer a good selection at reasonable prices.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

I use Eudora. It is very Eudora-like :-)  Check it out at 
http://www.eudora.com/?Mac.6.1.1

It comes in three flavors: 1) limited version for free; 2) nearly 
full-featured version for free if you agree to use the lower-left square 
inch of you screen for advertising; or 3) full-featured for a 
subscription fee.  I use option 2.

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Last year I bought a used PowerMac G4 (Dual 866 with 768 Megs/Ram -
> OSX Jaguar) from a friend, and for the longest time it mainly sat idle
> only be using used as either a backup PC or for MS Office when needed
> (I don't run Windows at home).
> 
> Well last week the HD in my linux box crashed (data on seperate HD so
> all's good), but before reinstalling I decided to give the Mac a shot
> as my primary PC for a while.  Since Friday (through weekend) I did
> all my work on the Mac, posted items on Ebay, digital pics from
> vacation, web and graphic design, you name it... and I'm VERY
> impressed.  I'm liking this system more and more to the point of
> switching to it as my main box and keeping Linux on the back burner.
> 
> I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80
> well before high school, and I've used MS stuff since MS-DOS 3.3 and
> Windows since Win 3.1.  I dropped any type of MS operating system
> about 3 years ago at home because of its unstability and tendencty to
> be crapware and switched to Linux which I've been more then happy
> with.  Now that I've given OSX a try, I'm really liking it.  The last
> time I used a Mac to any great length was the old Mac Classics in high
> school.
>
> I do have a few questions for those seasoned users out there:
> 
> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

I've added Logitech keyboards to Macs.  As other have said, most USB 
keyboards will work.  It helps if the manufacture actually lists the Mac 
as a system it will work on, and if they have software to help configure 
extra keys, but it is not essential.  At worst, you might not be able to 
have a Power-on button on the keyboard or a CD/DVD eject key.
 
> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Yes.  Yes, Yes, Yes.  Actually I like the Command-Tab improvements more 
than Expose, but that is not the only reasons to upgrade.  Much better 
Windows interoperation, better VPN support, better VT100 compatibility 
with Terminal.app, iChat AV if you want to do video chats with fellow 
Mac users (I use the video chat with Mom and my brother), faster on 
older systems, and lots more.

Also you should be able find it for less than that.  Go to 
http://dealmac.com and search for "Mac OS X upgrade".  You should be 
able to find it for a lot less than the list price.  Dealmac is also a 
good place to find other deals on stuff for your Mac.

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

On-line is just about the only way to really get software.  Think of 
most of your PC on-line vendors and change the PCxxx name to MacXXX and 
you may just find a Mac oriented page (MacMall, MacZone, MacWarehouse, 
MacConnection), also Google searches turn up Mac software if you know 
the title.  Another way to find vendors is to go to someplace like 
http://shopper.com and enter the name of the software plus "Mac".  This 
may turn up some more mailorder places.

http://versiontracker.com/macosx is the main source for Mac 
shareware/freeware.

http://macorchard.com tends to collect networking related software for 
Macs.

Also some of the cross platform software will actually create just one 
CD-ROM and just include Mac and PC versions on the same disk.  So if you 
are browsing software in a retail store, check to see if the box 
mentions Mac (although this is sometimes like searching for needles in a 
haystack).

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.

If your current card has a 2nd plug, then get adapter and plug in 
another CRT.  If you a 3rd monitor, just add another card.  If the card 
is a dual monitor card, then plug in 2 more monitors and have a 4 
monitor setup.  This will all just work without any special effort on 
your part.

The only reason to replace the current video card is if you have filled 
up all your PCI slots with other stuff that you can not get rid of.  
Even if you need a faster graphics card, you may not need it on all of 
your monitors, so just make the fastest graphics card service your 
primary monitor and let the slower one work the secondary monitor(s).

And for hardware upgrades, I would suggest looking at 
http://xlr8yourmac.com where they cover things like upgrading your 
video, disk, disk controller, CD/DVD, memory, and CPU.  Good place to 
visit.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

I log into work, and use mailx (all text based, but never got a virus :-)

> Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
> will definately be a key system in my home office.  ................

Other things to thing about.

Install Fink (http://fink.sourceforge.net/).  This will give you access 
to lots of Mac OS X ported OpenSource utilities and applications that 
you have been using on Linux.

Go to http::/macosxhints.com where you will find a lot of good 
information on using your Mac at a more in depth level, especially lots 
of ways to take advantage of the UNIX side of your Mac, but also hints 
on getting the most out of common apps.  Great resource.

These web sites are good resources for both current news, updates to 
software, and problem reports and solutions:

        http://macfixit.com
        http://macintouch.com

Others may (and will) have other contributions, but this is a good 
starter list.

> ..................................................  I've always herd
> once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

There are people have moved away from Macs.  But just like "Poor old 
Uncle Bob", we don't talk about him much :-)

                                        Bob Harris

> - Ringo -

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:
[]
> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.
Should'work. But look out for Keyboards with a Mac logo on their boxes. 
Else you go into trouble with the special Keys. 

Btw. Does someone know a Keyboard with a "Power Button" as the old 
ADB-Keyboards had? I mean one to start up the Mac (I think this is 
impossible cause it is USB, but perhaps someone found a solution.)
> 
> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.
Expose is GREAT! There are other things came up with 10.3.x like fast 
user switch and so. Its definitively more stable.
Also the X11 integration has been improved, as in general the Unix-Style 
has gone better(is my opinion). The Xcode utility is also been released 
with 10.3 (I think so, or am I wrong on that?) It's definitively better 
than the old one. (Application Builder? or how what is named?)

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.
Should be no problem! Its a standart AGP-Slot
Does there has exist G4s without second Display support? I don't 
remember. AFAIK all Mac cards have two displays support. Perhaps you 
need a adaptor (Is this the right word?) for ADC-to-VGA, or DVI-to-VGA. 
Then you don't need a Apple-Display! All newer VGA Displays will work.

You can also add a second PCI card into your Mac!
If both have two outputs, You can get 4 (!) Displays on that Mac. I use 
only two now, cause the PCI-Card has a fan problem, and is VERY noisy. 
I'm looking for a replacement, cause 4 Displays are a great expirience!
One for looking TV, one for playing Warcraft, one for the favorite 
Internet-News-Site (reloaded all 5 Min) and the newsreader, and the last 
for the Desktop to open files, start apps, and so on. Oahhhhh..... great 
experience....very great....Sorry, I dreamed away :-)

Btw. Mac Cards are more expensive than PC Cards. But in some Cases there 
exist a firmware upgrade for PC-Cards so they will work on Macs(I've 
read something about that some years before,but I'm not up-to-date about 
this.) Try searching the internet before buying. (Also think about how 
to update the firmware. if it replaces the old Mac-Card you have a 
problem, cause the card has to be in the mac, but you dont have a 
Picture. Perhaps you need a PC to acomplish the task.)

> 
> - Ringo -
Greatings HP

Sorry for the bad English, but I'm not native (and I have problems 
learning other languages.)

BreadWithSpam@fractious.net wrote:
> 
> I use both Mail.app and Thunderbird.  (and emacs/gnus).
> I've tried such others as GnuMail, PowerMail, Mulberry
> and probably a couple of others, but end up back with
> Mail.app and Thunderbird each time.
> 
Have you used Thunderbird in newsgroups?  Mozilla 1.7
seemed very broken to me compared to this ancient 
Netscape 4.76.

-- 
Clem
"If you push something hard enough, it will fall over."
             - Fudd's first law of opposition

<BreadWithSpam@fractious.net> wrote:
 > Alan Quirt <HERONaquirt@sympatico.ca> writes:
 > >  rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:
 > > > 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
 > > > instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
 > > > Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
 > > > shell out the $130 fer it.
 > >
 > > I found Panther well worth the money I paid for it. Yes Expos� is nice, 
 > > but what I like best is the long list of little fixes and improvements, 
 > > including the new Finder windows. It also networks even better with PCs.
 > 
 > Fast User switching - letting one user remain logged on
 > at the console and switching to another user without
 > having to log out and shut down everything the first
 > user was doing - is huge.

Yes.  It makes some useful things very easy to do.  Example:
there's this freeware or shareware app that looks good but you
don't really know yet whether to trust it.  You can create a
temporary (and non-privileged!) account just for using this
potentially dodgy app.  You then Fast User switch between it and
your normal account until you decide the app is OK for normal
use.  If the new app hangs your Mac, installs spyware or causes
Safari to launch thousands of popups, just delete the app and
the temp account and forget about it, no harm done.

Bob Harris  <harris@zk3.dec.com> wrote:
 >  rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:
 > > 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold
 > > out for Tiger instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12
 > > months (too Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out
 > > to be, I might need to shell out the $130 fer it.
 > 
 > Yes.  Yes, Yes, Yes.

I agree but don't pay $130 for it.  I easily found it for $65 online.

"Mr. Uh Clem" <uhclem@DutchElmSt.invalid> writes:
> BreadWithSpam@fractious.net wrote:
> > 
> > I use both Mail.app and Thunderbird.  (and emacs/gnus).

> Have you used Thunderbird in newsgroups?  Mozilla 1.7

I've never met a GUI newsreader I could stand.
I use emacs/gnus for this.

-- 
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! --    http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
   http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

Richard Maine wrote:
> It saves files with CR as line ends instead of LF.  The CR is an old
> Mac OS 9 (and earlier) convention.  OS X being at heart a Unix (or
> Unix-like if you prefer) system, LF is the "native" line ending.
> Lots of the Unix tools don't deal well with the CR endings.  As
> I said, easy enough to fix with a one-line script, but I do find
> myself needing to fix it.

Unfortunately, some of the GUI tools introduced with OS X are still
"backwards compatible"  Since some of us no longer need OS 9, but
some of us do, Apple ought to give these apps a pref option to select
what you want for output and automatically handle either for input.
If you stick with the GUI, it doesn't matter, but if you do both CLI
and GUI you have a problem.  (Especially if you try to use TextEdit
on UTF-8 perl scripts, since vi in Terminal doesn't handle UTF-8 well.)

Not like the option would be hard to do--BBEdit did it ages ago.

-- 
Wes Groleau

It seems a pity that psychology should have
destroyed all our knowledge of human nature.
                     -- G. K. Chesterton

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

Keyboards are very subjective things.  Effectively any USB keyboard will 
work.  I like the Logitech ones.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Tiger won't be out until no earlier than January.


> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

Anything of the form www.pcFOO.com can be used with mac replacing pc.

> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

You mean, like Eudora?  Or you could go with Mailsmith if you like 
HTML-less mail clients with wonderful features.

-- 
"...crying in your drink is bad enough; crying into a hot fudge sundae
is disgusting." - Jerry Farnsworth in _Job: A Comedy of Justice_

In article <yqmdnYSRCpsrCmHdRVn-qQ@gbronline.com>,
 Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:

> Richard Maine wrote:
> > It saves files with CR as line ends instead of LF.  The CR is an old
> > Mac OS 9 (and earlier) convention.  OS X being at heart a Unix (or
> > Unix-like if you prefer) system, LF is the "native" line ending.
> > Lots of the Unix tools don't deal well with the CR endings.  As
> > I said, easy enough to fix with a one-line script, but I do find
> > myself needing to fix it.
> 
> Unfortunately, some of the GUI tools introduced with OS X are still
> "backwards compatible"  Since some of us no longer need OS 9, but
> some of us do, Apple ought to give these apps a pref option to select
> what you want for output and automatically handle either for input.
> If you stick with the GUI, it doesn't matter, but if you do both CLI
> and GUI you have a problem.  (Especially if you try to use TextEdit
> on UTF-8 perl scripts, since vi in Terminal doesn't handle UTF-8 well.)
> 
> Not like the option would be hard to do--BBEdit did it ages ago.

For scripting, you could use Tcl, which handles this seamlessly for
reads (and very easily on writes, too). You can also do easy GUI
utilities on a Tcl/Tk base.

In article <howard-0E61BE.01390820072004@news.newsguy.com>,
 Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:

> Keyboards are very subjective things.  Effectively any USB keyboard will 
> work.  I like the Logitech ones.

I'm a big fan of the Kinesis keyboards (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) -- I have their "Advantage MPC USB" -- it has both a Command/Windows 
and Option/Alt key. By entering a specific key-combination into the 
keyboard, it's onboard software will switch between Mac and PC mode.

It takes about a week to get used to, but I can type faster (sounds like 
a machine gun), more accurately, and with far less discomfort.

-- 
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.sys.mac.misc.]
On 19 Jul 2004 14:28:16 -0700, Richard Maine wrote:
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> writes:
>  It saves files with CR as line ends instead of LF.  The CR is an old
>  Mac OS 9 (and earlier) convention.  OS X being at heart a Unix (or
>  Unix-like if you prefer) system, LF is the "native" line ending.
>  Lots of the Unix tools don't deal well with the CR endings.  As
>  I said, easy enough to fix with a one-line script, but I do find
>  myself needing to fix it.

It's not only the CR vs. LF story, but most applications still use the
Mac-Roman character set (including e.g. ����, but not ��, I suppose).

The future should be UTF-8, which is supported up to a certain degree.
But terminal and other 'native' OSX-applications do not work properly on
UTF, and not even on Latin-1.

>  Being able to use all the Unix tools on the same system as I have
>  a decent, well-integrated GUI is one of the attractions to MAc OS-X
>  to me.  I was not at all a Mac person before, but OS X has drawn
>  me over.

I used the Mac up to MacOS 7.6 - and OSX was my reason to move up to a
newer Mac again. But from your description I do not yet see the special
need for a Linux/Mac/Win system.

Using MS-Office? ok - runs nicely on the Mac.
Using OpenOffice on Linux or Mac? far from perfect


But the UTF support is far from perfect on Linux as well...
Even if it's implemented in some applications, it's poorly tested.

Regards
Martin

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the GREAT info!  

For email I didn't even know Eudora was still alive, to say nothing of
having a Mac OSX version :)  I tried it, but for now I'm sticking with
the stock Mail app that came with OSX.  It seems to work rather well
thus far.

David Besack, thanks for the links:
acqusition http://www.acquisitionx.com
cocktail http://www.macosxcocktail.com
fire http://fire.sourceforge.net
Open Office is a must on ANY box I use, but the other three are new to
me.  I'll definately add them this week.  Thanks!

Greg Buchner, as for dual monitors, I do use the dongle you linked to:
http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0117-ADCV going from my Mac
video card to Viewsonic 17" monitor.. but there's only one connector
on the back of the Mac - so I assume mine's only setup for single
monitor.  I ran system_profiler and it shows I have a GeForce4 MX AGP
video card... but not sure how much RAM.

Matthew Kirkcaldie, on the same topic I did some digging and found
that the some Matrox cards were supported on OS9 and below, but not
OSX.  This is a bummer since I do have a Matrix G400 dual-head card in
my LInux box I'd be more then happy to transplant, but alas, 3-4 folks
have asked this very question on the Matrox support forums and each
reply is 'not support, no drivers' from Matrox techs.

To everyone else, thanks for all the comments and suggestions.  I've
added like 10 bookmarks to my Favorites and am anxious to start
digging.  I've also decided to go ahead and get Panther, but I'll try
to find it on EBay to save some $$$.

Take care, 

- Ringo -

In article <7d96e89e.0407200608.5f5dfd0f@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> Greg Buchner, as for dual monitors, I do use the dongle you linked to:
> http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0117-ADCV going from my Mac
> video card to Viewsonic 17" monitor.. but there's only one connector
> on the back of the Mac - so I assume mine's only setup for single
> monitor.  I ran system_profiler and it shows I have a GeForce4 MX AGP
> video card... but not sure how much RAM.

OK, that's strange as I have an older G4 with a GeForce2 MX card and it 
has two monitor connectors on it.  And according to Apple, your card 
should have 32MB.  If I remember right, you have a dual 867 G4, should 
be the mirror drive door model and the tech specs are located here:

<http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75343>

Anyways, if you want to replace your AGP card with one that does dual 
monitors, and has plenty of ram, try:

<http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=6700&Item=ATI100433022>

And if you want to just add a PCI card, look on ebay for ATI Radeon 7000 
PCI cards.  Heck, if you're just doing basic graphics, you could 
probably get by with an ATI RAGE 128 PCI card.  There are a couple of 
128 cards on ebay and lots of the 7000 cards.  If you want a retail 
card, I haven't seen the Radeon 7000 available anywhere lately, but 
there is this supposedly coming soon:

<http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=6860&Item=ATI100436011>

Personally, I'd go for the dual-head ATI Radeon 9000 in the first link.  
It'll give you accelerated 2d graphics on both monitors.  In 10.2 and 
later, Apple leverages the 3d hardware to draw the basic 2d screen, but 
they only support doing it off of the AGP slot and it requires a Radeon 
or GeForce card to do it.  If I had the money at the moment, I'd 
probably replace my GeForce2 card with the Radeon 9000, but then I'd be 
looking for better gaming graphics, not dual monitor support.  :-)

Greg B.

-- 
Actual e-mail address is gbuchner and I'm located at mn.rr.com

Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> writes:

> Richard Maine wrote:
> > It [Mulberry] saves files with CR as line ends instead of LF....

> Apple ought to give these apps a pref option to select
> what you want for output...

Yes.  An option would be great.  Mulberry even has an interface to
select an output form, which I spent a long time fiddling with in
vain.  Turns out that although the interface is there to make a
selction, the appropriate choice isn't implemented.

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:58:18 -0400, Pete Stephenson wrote
(in article <pete-26DDF6.22581819072004@news.newsguy.com>):

> In article <howard-0E61BE.01390820072004@news.newsguy.com>,
>  Howard Shubs <howard@shubs.net> wrote:
> 
>> Keyboards are very subjective things.  Effectively any USB keyboard will 
>> work.  I like the Logitech ones.
> 
> I'm a big fan of the Kinesis keyboards (http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/) -- I 
> have their "Advantage MPC USB" -- it has both a Command/Windows 
> and Option/Alt key. By entering a specific key-combination into the 
> keyboard, it's onboard software will switch between Mac and PC mode.
> 
> It takes about a week to get used to, but I can type faster (sounds like 
> a machine gun), more accurately, and with far less discomfort.

It took me more than a week to get used to the arrow keys layout. But 
once you get used to it you find any other keyboard downright painful. 
Now if I have to use somebody else's keyboard, I find myself typing 
extra spaces all over the place (trying to delete).

-- 
J Brady

Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> writes:

> On 19 Jul 2004 14:28:16 -0700, Richard Maine wrote:

> >  Being able to use all the Unix tools on the same system as I have
> >  a decent, well-integrated GUI is one of the attractions to MAc OS-X
> >  to me.  I was not at all a Mac person before, but OS X has drawn
> >  me over.

> But from your description I do not yet see the special
> need for a Linux/Mac/Win system.
> 
> Using MS-Office? ok - runs nicely on the Mac.
> Using OpenOffice on Linux or Mac? far from perfect

My reasons for needing multiple systems aren't relevant here.  Since
you ask, I need Windows mostly for games (at home) and to port my
applications for other users that use the Windows platform (at work).
I need Linux to port my applications for other users, because I
sysadmin several Linux boxes for other users, and because it cannot
be beat for pure performance/dollars for computational tasks (at work).
My system choices are not solely determined, or even significantly
influenced, by a need to run MS Office or similar tools.

My comment about Unix tools had nothing at all to do with Office of
any brand; I don't know how that even entered the discussion.  There
are literally thousands of Unix tools.  Ok, I don't use that many, but
I use quite a few.  It doesn't seem interesting to enumerate them
here.  Yes, they are available on OS-X (and fink makes it particularly
easy for me to install a bunch of the ones that Apple doesn't directly
provide).  I'm using one of them to post this from my Mac at work (but
I'll not name it because I have no interest in debating why I should
or shouldn't like it - you can check the headers in the strange event
that you care).

In any case, I have no interest in discussing advocacy issues here.  I
use whatever systems seem best suited to the task at hand, considering
all factors.  Recently, that is often, but not always, an OS-X box for
me.  Advocacy-related followups to /dev/null.  I am not attempting to tell
anyone else what choices they should make.

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
Ringo Langly <rlangly@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80
>well before high school, and I've used MS stuff since MS-DOS 3.3 and
>Windows since Win 3.1.  I dropped any type of MS operating system
>about 3 years ago at home because of its unstability and tendencty to
>be crapware and switched to Linux which I've been more then happy
>with.  Now that I've given OSX a try, I'm really liking it.  The last
>time I used a Mac to any great length was the old Mac Classics in high
>school.
>
>I do have a few questions for those seasoned users out there:
>
>1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
>about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
>but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
>and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
>work.

You are a comparative old-timer if you remember DOS 3.3. Maybe at one
time you had an old original IBM keyboard, or a Keytronic, one with 
full-travel "click"-y keys. I want to recommend to you and to the rest
of the gang a newish keyboard designed for Macs made by Matias.com,
called the "Tactile Pro". It is as large as the Mac Pro keyboard and
very much more comfortable. It doesn't have an ergonomic shape (it is
simply rectangular), but I like it very much. The keys are almost all
marked with four symbols to tell you what the key produces when combined
with the alt or option keys. Very handy. There is also a CD/DVD eject
button, independent arrow keys, full numeric keyboard, and a very
good guarantee. The only minor complaint I have is that the num lock
key, like the caps lock key, has (apparently) a LED, but it doesn't
work (maybe I'm too stupid to make it work.)

I bought mine from Small Dog Electronics, a wonderful firm in Vermont;
www.smalldog.com, for roughly $79 and worth every penny. This thing is
built like a Hummer.

>
>2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
>instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
>Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
>shell out the $130 fer it.

I agree with you that the annual $130 is sort of a pain (as a high 
school teacher, I only have to shell out about $70, but it's still
a pain.) I doubt we will see Tiger before June 2005, so for the 
year, I'd buy Panther. It is a lot faster, and that alone is worth
the money. Expose is nice but I don't use it all that much.

>3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
>we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
>not long ago.

CDW bought, if I recall correctly, Mac Connection. I usually buy 
software directly from the firm (e.g. from Adobe) if I can't get a 
deal from the university bookstore. Have a look at VersionTracker.com,
and MacFixit.com. I strongly recommend the books from O'Reilly and
some from Peachpit (especially by Robin Williams.)

>4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
>I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
>need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
>too $$$ for my budget

Possible. Try SmallDog or OtherWorldComputing.

>
>5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
>basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
>full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
>Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
>client.

Yes; I use Mail but there are many variants.

>
>Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
>will definately be a key system in my home office.  I've always herd
>once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

Dunno if you program, but you should perhaps be aware of fink and the
whole port-every-GNU/Linux-app-known-to-man-woman-or-child-to-OS X
project. There are terrific apps out there that are absolutely free
(My thanks to Gerben Wierda for teTeX and the folks who wrote TexShop.
If you do technical writing on a Mac without these, you're working 
much too hard.)

David Derbes

>
>- Ringo -

In article <h.spalinger-140B46.03345220072004@maser.urz.unibas.ch>,
Spalinger Hanspeter  <h.spalinger@stud.unibas.ch> wrote:

>Btw. Does someone know a Keyboard with a "Power Button" as the old 
>ADB-Keyboards had? I mean one to start up the Mac (I think this is 
>impossible cause it is USB, but perhaps someone found a solution.)

I have a sort of answer. I have a blue and white G3 that simply doesn't
allow a keyboard to power it on, even with an Apple Pro keyboard. 
I recently purchased a Tactile Pro keyboard (matias.com or from
Small Dog Electronics, smalldog.com) which has this button, but it
doesn't work with my computer. It may well work with a G4 or other.
The keybaord has a volume up and down, a mute and a CD/DVD ROM 
eject key as well as the power key, but for me the power key does
not work. I think this is more a feature of the computer than its
being a USB keyboard. 

(It occurs to me that I have an ADB bus, and I could try to start 
from an old ADB keyboard. Hmmm...)

David Derbes

In article <OHcLc.25$25.6079@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
<loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

> In article <h.spalinger-140B46.03345220072004@maser.urz.unibas.ch>,
> Spalinger Hanspeter  <h.spalinger@stud.unibas.ch> wrote:
> 
> >Btw. Does someone know a Keyboard with a "Power Button" as the old 
> >ADB-Keyboards had? I mean one to start up the Mac (I think this is 
> >impossible cause it is USB, but perhaps someone found a solution.)
> 
> I have a sort of answer. I have a blue and white G3 that simply doesn't
> allow a keyboard to power it on, even with an Apple Pro keyboard. 
> I recently purchased a Tactile Pro keyboard (matias.com or from
> Small Dog Electronics, smalldog.com) which has this button, but it
> doesn't work with my computer. It may well work with a G4 or other.
> The keybaord has a volume up and down, a mute and a CD/DVD ROM 
> eject key as well as the power key, but for me the power key does
> not work. I think this is more a feature of the computer than its
> being a USB keyboard. 
> 
> (It occurs to me that I have an ADB bus, and I could try to start 
> from an old ADB keyboard. Hmmm...)
> 
> David Derbes
> 
I just ordered the Matias Tactile Pro for my G4 DP/AGP. I'll let
you know if the power key works on this computer. It should arrive
in a couple of days so stay tuned.

-- 
Ed Grant

In article <3ycLc.24$25.6043@news.uchicago.edu>,
 loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote to Ringo:

> You are a comparative old-timer if you remember DOS 3.3. Maybe at one
> time you had an old original IBM keyboard, or a Keytronic, one with 
> full-travel "click"-y keys. I want to recommend to you and to the rest
> of the gang a newish keyboard designed for Macs made by Matias.com,
> called the "Tactile Pro". It is as large as the Mac Pro keyboard and
> very much more comfortable. It doesn't have an ergonomic shape (it is
> simply rectangular), but I like it very much. The keys are almost all
> marked with four symbols to tell you what the key produces when combined
> with the alt or option keys. Very handy. There is also a CD/DVD eject
> button, independent arrow keys, full numeric keyboard, and a very
> good guarantee. The only minor complaint I have is that the num lock
> key, like the caps lock key, has (apparently) a LED, but it doesn't
> work (maybe I'm too stupid to make it work.)
> 
> I bought mine from Small Dog Electronics, a wonderful firm in Vermont;
> www.smalldog.com, for roughly $79 and worth every penny. This thing is
> built like a Hummer.


Oh what timely news.  I asked around about that very keyboard not long 
ago because I wondered if it was any better from an ergonomic sense (I 
have ulnar tunnel syndrome.  But, a couple people suggested that the 
Tactile Pro requires a heavier touch than the normal Mac keyboard.  
However, I don't think either person was using one regularly.  So, what 
is the verdict?

Mr. Uh Clem wrote:

> BreadWithSpam@fractious.net wrote:
> 
>>I use both Mail.app and Thunderbird.  (and emacs/gnus).
>>I've tried such others as GnuMail, PowerMail, Mulberry
>>and probably a couple of others, but end up back with
>>Mail.app and Thunderbird each time.
>>
> 
> Have you used Thunderbird in newsgroups?  Mozilla 1.7
> seemed very broken to me compared to this ancient 
> Netscape 4.76.
> 
I'm using Thunderbird now.  I love it except for two annoyances. The 
first is that I can't set up a signature to just have my first name, it 
wants me to assign a vcard or something (maybe this is user error but 
I'm having to type in the two dashes & my name).

The second is lack of commonly used commands key combos.  For example, 
to get new headers or refresh a newsgroup, I don't want to go to the 
File menu, I want to just hit a key (or combination) and have it done 
for me.

Otherwise it has a very nice feel to me but keep in mind that I used OE 
for the last 5 years so I compare all others to OE in terms of the 
layout & functionability.

--
Tara

Madwen <madwen@onomatopaeia.com> writes:
> In article <3ycLc.24$25.6043@news.uchicago.edu>,
>  loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote to Ringo:

> > of the gang a newish keyboard designed for Macs made by Matias.com,
> > called the "Tactile Pro". It is as large as the Mac Pro keyboard and
> > I bought mine from Small Dog Electronics, a wonderful firm in Vermont;
> > www.smalldog.com, for roughly $79 and worth every penny. This thing is
> > built like a Hummer.

> Oh what timely news.  I asked around about that very keyboard not long 
> ago because I wondered if it was any better from an ergonomic sense (I 

I posted about it when I first heard of it and ordered it
(it was backordered by a number of weeks - I, too, got
mine from Smalldog - those guys are awesome).  And I posted
when I got it.  It's _great_.  I'm typing on it now.  And
I think I'm going to order a second one to leave at my
office to plug into my pBook when I bring it in.  Dunno
what I ought to do with the couple of Apple keyboards I've
got here.  Probably just give them away locally.

The Matias is worth every cent and then some.  It's almost
certainly still backordered.  They can't keep up with the
demand.  Apparently a _lot_ of folks prefer a good keyboard
and are willing to pay for it even in addition to having
paid for whatever came with their computers.

> have ulnar tunnel syndrome.  But, a couple people suggested that the 
> Tactile Pro requires a heavier touch than the normal Mac keyboard.  
> However, I don't think either person was using one regularly.  So, what 
> is the verdict?

It definitely favors a key pounder.  If you just brush your
fingers over the keyboard, it's not going to register.

If you buy one and find it requires a heavier touch than
you prefer, I have no doubt you'd be able to sell it for
what you paid for it (or very close) given the current
demand.

-- 
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! --    http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
   http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

Tee wrote:
> I'm using Thunderbird now.  I love it except for two annoyances. The 
> first is that I can't set up a signature to just have my first name, it 

I use Thunderbird.  My signature is whatever happens to be
in the file  ~/.signature  (and I run a program that overwrites
that file frequently with a random pick from my collection).

My peeve is the bugs that seem to be in the filtering mechanism.
There's a troll in one particular NG who constantly changes his
"name" but it always contains a bad pun on a Japanese word.
But in Thunderbird's Message Filters, "where sender contains ____"
actually means "where sender is (exactly) _____"

-- 
Wes Groleau

    I've noticed lately that the paranoid fear of computers becoming
    intelligent and taking over the world has almost entirely disappeared
    from the common culture.  Near as I can tell, this coincides with
    the release of MS-DOS.
                                  -- Larry DeLuca

Wes Groleau wrote:

> Tee wrote:
> 
>> I'm using Thunderbird now.  I love it except for two annoyances. The 
>> first is that I can't set up a signature to just have my first name, it 
> 
> 
> I use Thunderbird.  My signature is whatever happens to be
> in the file  ~/.signature  (and I run a program that overwrites
> that file frequently with a random pick from my collection).
> 
> My peeve is the bugs that seem to be in the filtering mechanism.
> There's a troll in one particular NG who constantly changes his
> "name" but it always contains a bad pun on a Japanese word.
> But in Thunderbird's Message Filters, "where sender contains ____"
> actually means "where sender is (exactly) _____"
> 
I noticed that.  I set up a filter on a person's name, he never changes 
it, but it didn't work.  I had to use his email address instead.  And 
rather than applying to all newsgroups, it only applied to the newsgroup 
I was in at the time (he frequents all the pets ngs).  I may have some 
more homework to do with Thunderbird as maybe there's a selection for 
"apply to all newsgroups" and I just haven't found it.

I also have Entourage and I may switch over to it if typing the hyphens 
and my name continues to annoy me.  I've become pretty lazy evidently 
but I find I'm happy being lazy.  I do really love the 3 pane look and 
feel of Thunderbird because its so similar to OE and Entourage.  I've 
tried other newsreaders but found them way too complex or needing too 
much interaction from me just to browse posts.

--
Tara

Some other sources for the Matias Tactile Pro KB, which I happen to own
and enjoy. Nice action, although not quite like my Steinway, but better
than the membrane action of the Apple units. Excellent clackage.

$72.25 from this vendor.
<http://www.me-now.com/macotaproke.html>

J&R (and Amazon) has it for $89.88
<http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product_Code=MKS+TACTILEPRO&JRS
ource=google.datafeed.MKS+TACTILEPRO>

<http://www.amazon.com/o/dt/assoc/handle-buy-box=B0000DFI06>

Macyummies, $89.99
<http://store.yahoo.com/macyummies/macotaproke.html>

Shipping, availability, etc., is outside the purview of this posting.
My units came from another source entirely (not retail) and this
listing should not be construed as an endorsement of any of the listed
dealers.

Enjoy the best *NIX going!

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

                   -=  Death is easy, it's comedy that's difficult.  =-

Tee wrote:
> 
> Mr. Uh Clem wrote:
> 
> > BreadWithSpam@fractious.net wrote:
> >
> >>I use both Mail.app and Thunderbird.  (and emacs/gnus).
> >>I've tried such others as GnuMail, PowerMail, Mulberry
> >>and probably a couple of others, but end up back with
> >>Mail.app and Thunderbird each time.
> >>
> >
> > Have you used Thunderbird in newsgroups?  Mozilla 1.7
> > seemed very broken to me compared to this ancient
> > Netscape 4.76.
> >
> I'm using Thunderbird now.  I love it except for two annoyances. The
> first is that I can't set up a signature to just have my first name, it
> wants me to assign a vcard or something (maybe this is user error but
> I'm having to type in the two dashes & my name).
> 
> The second is lack of commonly used commands key combos.  For example,
> to get new headers or refresh a newsgroup, I don't want to go to the
> File menu, I want to just hit a key (or combination) and have it done
> for me.
> 
> Otherwise it has a very nice feel to me but keep in mind that I used OE
> for the last 5 years so I compare all others to OE in terms of the
> layout & functionability.

It seems broken to me, mainly because it does not display threads
well.    If I kill a thread, it EXPANDS it!   I also miss things
hand for high volume groups, such as Mark by Date.   Seem a step
back from NS 4.76.  Very strange.

I wonder if I messed things up on upgrading from Moz 1.6.  Guess
I should nuke it out and try again...

-- 
Clem
"If you push something hard enough, it will fall over."
             - Fudd's first law of opposition

In article <20040719123821.04158.00001581@mb-m15.aol.com>,
 tacitr@aol.com (Tacit) wrote:

> >I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80 
> >well before high school,...
> 
> Hey! Another TRS-80 guy...I got started on TRS-80s in 1977, and I've 
> owned a total of 12 or 13 of 'em, including a TRS-80 laptop (which I 
> just sold on eBay a couple months back).

Hey, I ended up *working* for Tandy for ten years as a result of buying 
a TRS-80!  I bought my first Mac (a 512KE) so that I'd have a computer 
at home that I wouldn't feel like I'd have to do work on.  The rest is 
history...

> >1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but 
> >what about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will 
> >work, but anyone have experience?
> 
> It'll work, though it may do some funny key mappings, since MS 
> keyboards lack a "command" key but include a "windows" key and often 
> a "menu" key.

It does work (I'm typing this with one), but by default the key next to 
the spacebar, labeled "Alt", is treated as option, and the windows key 
is treated as Command.  However, uControl easily swaps them.

[]
-- 
Kevin Michael Vail | a billion stars go spinning through the night,
kevin@vaildc.net   | blazing high above your head.
 . . . . . . . . . | But _in_ you is the presence that
  . . . . . . . .  | will be, when all the stars are dead. 
 . . . . . . . . . |     (Rainer Maria Rilke)

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.
<snip>
> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

A suggestion for you: Upgrade to Panther, then try the Mail included 
with it. It's quite a bit better.

-- 
Steven Fisher; sdfisher@spamcop.net
"Morituri Nolumus Mori."

On 20 Jul 2004 09:23:31 -0700, Richard Maine wrote:
>  Martin Trautmann <t-use@gmx.net> writes:
> > On 19 Jul 2004 14:28:16 -0700, Richard Maine wrote:
>  I need Linux to port my applications for other users, because I
>  sysadmin several Linux boxes for other users, and because it cannot
>  be beat for pure performance/dollars for computational tasks (at work).

ok - but it's sometimes a hard job to get something ready for
compilation on darwin (MacOS unix)


You mentionned fink - a good starting point, but most of the times far
behind the latest package releases. I still have to find out how to
manage the patch mechanism on the latest package best.

>  Ok, I don't use that many, but
>  I use quite a few.  It doesn't seem interesting to enumerate them
>  here.  Yes, they are available on OS-X (and fink makes it particularly
>  easy for me to install a bunch of the ones that Apple doesn't directly
>  provide).  I'm using one of them to post this from my Mac at work (but
>  I'll not name it because I have no interest in debating why I should
>  or shouldn't like it - you can check the headers in the strange event
>  that you care).

I prefer slrn myself ;-)

>  In any case, I have no interest in discussing advocacy issues here. 

Agreed. I just hope for better UTF support both from MacOS and
OSX-applications, as well as for the unix tooling.

Kind regards
Martin

In article <200720041618298729%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>In article <OHcLc.25$25.6079@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
><loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> I have a sort of answer. I have a blue and white G3 that simply doesn't
>> allow a keyboard to power it on, even with an Apple Pro keyboard. 
>> I recently purchased a Tactile Pro keyboard (matias.com or from
>> Small Dog Electronics, smalldog.com) which has this button, but it
>> doesn't work with my computer. It may well work with a G4 or other.
>> 
>> David Derbes
>> 
>I just ordered the Matias Tactile Pro for my G4 DP/AGP. I'll let
>you know if the power key works on this computer. It should arrive
>in a couple of days so stay tuned.

Thanks, Ed!

DD

>
>-- 
>Ed Grant

In article <madwen-131A90.16321820072004@news.giganews.com>,
Madwen  <madwen@onomatopaeia.com> wrote:
>In article <3ycLc.24$25.6043@news.uchicago.edu>,
> loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote to Ringo:
>
>> You are a comparative old-timer if you remember DOS 3.3. Maybe at one
>> time you had an old original IBM keyboard, or a Keytronic, one with 
>> full-travel "click"-y keys. I want to recommend to you and to the rest
>> of the gang a newish keyboard designed for Macs made by Matias.com,
>> called the "Tactile Pro". It is as large as the Mac Pro keyboard and
>> very much more comfortable. It doesn't have an ergonomic shape (it is
>> simply rectangular), but I like it very much. The keys are almost all
>> marked with four symbols to tell you what the key produces when combined
>> with the alt or option keys. Very handy. There is also a CD/DVD eject
>> button, independent arrow keys, full numeric keyboard, and a very
>> good guarantee. The only minor complaint I have is that the num lock
>> key, like the caps lock key, has (apparently) a LED, but it doesn't
>> work (maybe I'm too stupid to make it work.)
>> 
>> I bought mine from Small Dog Electronics, a wonderful firm in Vermont;
>> www.smalldog.com, for roughly $79 and worth every penny. This thing is
>> built like a Hummer.
>
>
>Oh what timely news.  I asked around about that very keyboard not long 
>ago because I wondered if it was any better from an ergonomic sense (I 
>have ulnar tunnel syndrome.  But, a couple people suggested that the 
>Tactile Pro requires a heavier touch than the normal Mac keyboard.  
>However, I don't think either person was using one regularly.  So, what 
>is the verdict?

I don't have carpal tunnel (though I've had wrist pain from too much
typing.) The keyboard is larger which is helpful to me, and I prefer the
deeper travel of the keys. The keyboard is a little noisy, but in fact
I even like that. The heavier touch is accurate, but it may be (strangely
enough) therapeutic once you tone up the appropriate muscle, I dunno.

Maybe you could give the keyboard a try, and return it if you don't
like it. Small Dog may have a grace period; write them and ask. Keyboards
are really subjective, and I'd hate to steer you wrong.

Good luck!

David Derbes

In article <g2tLc.8$25.267@news.uchicago.edu>,
 loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:

> I don't have carpal tunnel (though I've had wrist pain from too much
> typing.) The keyboard is larger which is helpful to me, and I prefer the
> deeper travel of the keys. The keyboard is a little noisy, but in fact
> I even like that. The heavier touch is accurate, but it may be (strangely
> enough) therapeutic once you tone up the appropriate muscle, I dunno.

I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 
                   7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

In article <g2tLc.8$25.267@news.uchicago.edu>,
 loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:

> I don't have carpal tunnel (though I've had wrist pain from too much
> typing.) The keyboard is larger which is helpful to me, and I prefer the
> deeper travel of the keys. The keyboard is a little noisy, but in fact
> I even like that. The heavier touch is accurate, but it may be (strangely
> enough) therapeutic once you tone up the appropriate muscle, I dunno.
> 
> Maybe you could give the keyboard a try, and return it if you don't
> like it. Small Dog may have a grace period; write them and ask. Keyboards
> are really subjective, and I'd hate to steer you wrong.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> David Derbes

Thanks for the information :)

 Tom Stiller wrote:

> I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.

An interesting premise, but probably one you don't want to share with a
lot of health professionals.

1).  As early as 1913 the medical literature describes the pathology of
median nerve compression under the transverse carpal ligament.

2). Muscle tone is probably not an issue in carpal tunnel syndrome. 
The actual etiology is multifactorial and there is some debate about
the actual causative agents. In some cases, there's good evidence of
congenital issues, in others it's trauma related, in others the
pathology is somewhat mysterious. 

BTW, The incidence of CTS in the meat processing industry is near
epidemic.  Eight hours day wielding heavy knives surely would argue
against a lack of muscle tone being implicated, and then there's basic
anatomy...

OSHA has their own view of cause, the American Society for Surgery of
the Hand quite another. Psychosocial and socioeconomic issues are also
being studied. In short, while it is the most commonly diagnosed and
treated entrapment neuropath, it's still a hotly debated issue.

Which brings me to the real reason for this posting.  What mechanisms
change permissions in OS X such that I can repair them and then a week
later there are again changed permissions?

Bad segue? You betcha!

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

                   -=  I link therefore I'm spammed  =-

Greg Buchner <null@invalid.com> wrote in message news:<null-710C21.10052020072004@apollo-ge0.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> In article <7d96e89e.0407200608.5f5dfd0f@posting.google.com>,
>  rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:
> 
> > Greg Buchner, as for dual monitors, I do use the dongle you linked to:
> > http://www.drbott.com/prod/db.lasso?code=0117-ADCV going from my Mac
> > video card to Viewsonic 17" monitor.. but there's only one connector
> > on the back of the Mac - so I assume mine's only setup for single
> > monitor.  I ran system_profiler and it shows I have a GeForce4 MX AGP
> > video card... but not sure how much RAM.
> 
> OK, that's strange as I have an older G4 with a GeForce2 MX card and it 
> has two monitor connectors on it.  And according to Apple, your card 
> should have 32MB.  If I remember right, you have a dual 867 G4, should 
> be the mirror drive door model and the tech specs are located here:
> 
> <http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75343>
> 
> Anyways, if you want to replace your AGP card with one that does dual 
> monitors, and has plenty of ram, try:
> 
> <http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=6700&Item=ATI100433022>
> 
> And if you want to just add a PCI card, look on ebay for ATI Radeon 7000 
> PCI cards.  Heck, if you're just doing basic graphics, you could 
> probably get by with an ATI RAGE 128 PCI card.  There are a couple of 
> 128 cards on ebay and lots of the 7000 cards.  If you want a retail 
> card, I haven't seen the Radeon 7000 available anywhere lately, but 
> there is this supposedly coming soon:
> 
> <http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm?ID=6860&Item=ATI100436011>
> 
> Personally, I'd go for the dual-head ATI Radeon 9000 in the first link.  
> It'll give you accelerated 2d graphics on both monitors.  In 10.2 and 
> later, Apple leverages the 3d hardware to draw the basic 2d screen, but 
> they only support doing it off of the AGP slot and it requires a Radeon 
> or GeForce card to do it.  If I had the money at the moment, I'd 
> probably replace my GeForce2 card with the Radeon 9000, but then I'd be 
> looking for better gaming graphics, not dual monitor support.  :-)
> 
> Greg B.

Hi Greg,

I'll double-check my box when I get home, but I think it only has one
video output... though the specs you show above are right on in all
other aspects.   Do you know whether the Radeon 9000 will support 3D
on both monitors if using standard CRT monitors?  I'd love to go with
duals, but I don't want to give-up graphic quality.  Also I can't
afford dual LCD's :)  I'm looking at getting some games in the future,
so I'll need the 3D for this.

Thanks again for the great info and help.

- Ringo -

loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote in message news:<3ycLc.24$25.6043@news.uchicago.edu>...
> You are a comparative old-timer if you remember DOS 3.3. Maybe at one
> time you had an old original IBM keyboard, or a Keytronic, one with 
> full-travel "click"-y keys. I want to recommend to you and to the rest
> of the gang a newish keyboard designed for Macs made by Matias.com,
> called the "Tactile Pro". It is as large as the Mac Pro keyboard and
> very much more comfortable. It doesn't have an ergonomic shape (it is
> simply rectangular), but I like it very much. The keys are almost all
> marked with four symbols to tell you what the key produces when combined
> with the alt or option keys. Very handy. There is also a CD/DVD eject
> button, independent arrow keys, full numeric keyboard, and a very
> good guarantee. The only minor complaint I have is that the num lock
> key, like the caps lock key, has (apparently) a LED, but it doesn't
> work (maybe I'm too stupid to make it work.)

Yup, and I got my MS-DOS 3.3 box when I was around 14, but I'd been a
TRS-80 guy (or kid rather) since grade school :)  Ahh the days of
edlin, debug, and MFM hard drives that needed to be parked before
shutting down the system.  hehe  Computers have sure come a long way.

AHh, back on track here :) I could reminisce all day...  I love the
Tactile Pro keyboard you mention, and if I can't find a worthy
ergonomic keyboard I'll definately look into that.  One thing I've
noticed is at home when on my Mac the Open Apple, er Option key is
where my Alt key is on Windows box at work.  In Mozilla I keep hitting
Alt-T to open new Tab instead of Ctrl.  hehe The probs that come with
multi-OS folks.

> I bought mine from Small Dog Electronics, a wonderful firm in Vermont;
> www.smalldog.com, for roughly $79 and worth every penny. This thing is
> built like a Hummer.

COol, I'll check'em out.

> I agree with you that the annual $130 is sort of a pain (as a high 
> school teacher, I only have to shell out about $70, but it's still
> a pain.) I doubt we will see Tiger before June 2005, so for the 
> year, I'd buy Panther. It is a lot faster, and that alone is worth
> the money. Expose is nice but I don't use it all that much.

I am a starving web programmer who spends way too much time on the
computer, so Panther is a must have.  I'm Watching several on EBay,
but I might just buy it retail to verify it's complete.

> CDW bought, if I recall correctly, Mac Connection. I usually buy 
> software directly from the firm (e.g. from Adobe) if I can't get a 
> deal from the university bookstore. Have a look at VersionTracker.com,
> and MacFixit.com. I strongly recommend the books from O'Reilly and
> some from Peachpit (especially by Robin Williams.)

CDW...  never thought of them.  We use them at work and I know our
sales rep pretty good.  I'll call and see if they can send me a Mac
catalog.  God knows I get plenty of PC and Server catalogs from them
each month.  I also stumbled across VersionTracker and downloaded some
awesome stuff last night (nice budget program and some other tools). 
And I've been meaning to buy one of Robin Williams books since seeing
her on The Screen Savers (RIP) several months ago.

> Yes; I use Mail but there are many variants.

I've been using the stock Mail program, but is it missing a Contacts
area or am I missing something???  I tried to add a friend to the
contacts last night and couldn't find the dang thing :-/

> Dunno if you program, but you should perhaps be aware of fink and the
> whole port-every-GNU/Linux-app-known-to-man-woman-or-child-to-OS X
> project. There are terrific apps out there that are absolutely free
> (My thanks to Gerben Wierda for teTeX and the folks who wrote TexShop.
> If you do technical writing on a Mac without these, you're working 
> much too hard.)

Fink rocks!  That was the first thing I installed.  I mainly wanted
the command line functions since I live in shell :)  Plus from work I
SSH into my Mac to do testing outside our network.

David, thanks for all the great info and insight...  and take care,

- Ringo -

rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) writes:

> I've been using the stock Mail program, but is it missing a Contacts
> area or am I missing something???  I tried to add a friend to the
> contacts last night and couldn't find the dang thing :-/

It's tightly integrated with the stock AddressBook program.
Crank that up and check it out.  It's actually not too bad,
though there are a variety of UI improvements I'd like to
see (ie. when looking at an individual, one ought to be able
to see the list of groups to which that individual belongs).


-- 
Plain Bread alone for e-mail, thanks.  The rest gets trashed.
No HTML in E-Mail! --    http://www.expita.com/nomime.html
Are you posting responses that are easy for others to follow?
   http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2000/06/14/quoting

In article <210720041020582573%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

>  Tom Stiller wrote:
> 
> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
> 
> An interesting premise, but probably one you don't want to share with a
> lot of health professionals.
> 
> 1).  As early as 1913 the medical literature describes the pathology of
> median nerve compression under the transverse carpal ligament.

But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?

My suspicion is that computers have resulted in more people making 
extensive use of keyboards, so there's more chance of the ones who are 
prone to CTS doing so.  Also, with computers you frequently have to 
contort your hands to press the control key along with other keys.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:51:44 -0500, Tom Stiller wrote
(in article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>):

 
> I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.

I've been a touch typist for over 50 years, and spend a great share of my 
waking day at the keyboard, and I've never (at least to my awareness) 
experienced symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome. When I was taught typing it 
was emphasized that one's wrists should be held relatively high as though one 
were playing the piano, as opposed to as is often seen today where people 
have their wrists somewhat flat and laying on one of those so-called wrist 
rests. I'd be curious as to how many piano players suffer from carpal tunnel 
syndrome.


-- James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

"My dog never came across a bush he didn't like!"

In article <210720041020582573%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> Which brings me to the real reason for this posting.  What mechanisms
> change permissions in OS X such that I can repair them and then a week
> later there are again changed permissions?

Permissions on which files are being changed and what are they being 
changed from and to?

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 
                   7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

Barry Margolin wrote:

> But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?

As a percentage, I don't know, and I don't know if medical records
exist to determine as much. Might be worth some further digging.

It's probably a safe assumption to surmise that the incidence per
capita is higher today due to the ubiquity of the keyboard.  With the
death of typing pools, clearly more are at risk. That is, if you're
from the "typing, or other repetitive stress activities, is a cause of
CTS" camp. Not all MDs are.

> My suspicion is that computers have resulted in more people making 
> extensive use of keyboards, so there's more chance of the ones who are 
> prone to CTS doing so.  Also, with computers you frequently have to 
> contort your hands to press the control key along with other keys.

Sure, if you're physiologically predisposed to CTS, extensive use of a
keyboard is likely an aggravating factor.  Although again, there's
something of a schism in the medical community on the issue.  

There are those who support the argument of RSIs being caused by things
like keyboard usage, instrument playing, etc., and then there are those
who argue otherwise.  

That's the nice thing about medical science. It's 48% science, 46.5%
art, and 9.6% rubbish.  (Needless to say math was never my strong
suit.)

I had my own bout with CTS several years ago.  Aggravating factors were
many, but after seeing a lot of physicians and physical therapists on
my case, I came away with the strong impression that there's as much
known as there is unknown regards CTS.  Much better now, but a very
unpleasant experience at the time.  FWIW, in my case, I'm 73% certain
that aspartame exacerbated my CTS.  YMMV.

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

                   -=  I link therefore I'm spammed  =-

Tom Stiller wrote:

> Permissions on which files are being changed and what are they being 
> changed from and to?

Let me get back to you on that.  I ran Disk Utility on all my Macs last
week and did not log those changes.  But virtually every partition had
some files that were changed by permission repair.   

If memory serves, and it may not, most of the files that were touched
were Apple files that I might (na�vely) characterize as system related.

IOW, stuff that looks fairly arcane to this non-UNIX weenie.

I take it this is not a common issue?  <gulp>

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

                   -=  I link therefore I'm spammed  =-

John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> writes:

> Tom Stiller wrote:
> 
> > Permissions on which files are being changed and what are they being 
> > changed from and to?

> I take it this is not a common issue?  <gulp>

Well I used to have problems with file permissions being changed, but
I seriously doubt it was from the same cause as yours (whatever
caused yours).

The local sysadmins, in their wisdom, had installed a login script to
automatically "fix" the permissions of all files in user's home
directories whenever the user logged in.  I didn't think too much of
the sysadmins presuming that it was appropriate for them to override
the user's file permission settings without asking (or even telling
anyone that they were doing it).  My doubts were reinforced by the
fact that the sysadmin's script didn't even correctly do what they
intended.  :-( Ater finding this and a few other "issues", I wiped the
disk and reinstalled from scratch myself to make sure that I knew
exactly what the configuration of my system was.  And we are
getting new sysadmins.  Management thinks I shouldn't be "wasting"
my time on sysadmin...though I seem to need to keep my skills up
to patch up the problems of the sysadmins we outsource to.

-- 
Richard Maine                       |  Good judgment comes from experience;
email: my first.last at org.domain  |  experience comes from bad judgment.
org: nasa, domain: gov              |        -- Mark Twain

In article <210720041147495209%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> FWIW, in my case, I'm 73% certain
> that aspartame exacerbated my CTS.  YMMV.


Really?  Are you serious or joking?

Tee wrote:
-snip-
> I'm using Thunderbird now.  I love it except for two annoyances. The 
> first is that I can't set up a signature to just have my first name, it 
> wants me to assign a vcard or something (maybe this is user error but 
> I'm having to type in the two dashes & my name).

I also think Thunderbird is a good application, but what I hate mostly 
is that I can�t get a particular message-ID, like in Outlook Express. 
Does anyone know how to fetch a particular message-ID, like 
<news:???.etc.etc.>?

Best regards,
Martin J�rgensen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin J�rgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

>>I don't have carpal tunnel (though I've had wrist pain from too much
>>typing.) The keyboard is larger which is helpful to me, and I prefer the
>>deeper travel of the keys. The keyboard is a little noisy, but in fact
>>I even like that. The heavier touch is accurate, but it may be (strangely
>>enough) therapeutic once you tone up the appropriate muscle, I dunno.
> 
> 
> I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.

Within the last year I remember reading a study showing that there's no 
link between carpel tunnel and computer keyboard use.  But they did not 
investigate mouse use.

In article <0001HW.BD23EDFC0001253AF03055B0@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@mac.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 07:51:44 -0500, Tom Stiller wrote
> (in article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>):
> 
>  
> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
> 
> I've been a touch typist for over 50 years, and spend a great share of my 
> waking day at the keyboard, and I've never (at least to my awareness) 
> experienced symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome. When I was taught typing it 
> was emphasized that one's wrists should be held relatively high as though one 
> were playing the piano, as opposed to as is often seen today where people 
> have their wrists somewhat flat and laying on one of those so-called wrist 
> rests. I'd be curious as to how many piano players suffer from carpal tunnel 
> syndrome.

That's also part of my theory -- along with the fact that many more 
people are using keyboards now, most of them probably never had good 
typing instruction.  I also learned to touch type when I was in Jr. High 
(30 years ago), and have never had problems.  I also suspect that my 
regular use of wrist-rests (or keyboards that have one built-in) has 
helped.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:38:59 -0500, David Besack wrote
(in article <cdmd83$d326$1@netnews.upenn.edu>):

> Within the last year I remember reading a study showing that there's no link 
> between carpel tunnel and computer keyboard use.

A few years ago one of the secretaries where I was working blurted out (and 
this is for real!) "I sit at my desk all day long. Will I get crap hole 
tunnel syndrome?"

-- James L. Ryan -- TaliesinSoft

"My dog never came across a bush he didn't like!"

In article <7d96e89e.0407210635.759a9b6@posting.google.com>,
Ringo Langly <rlangly@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>David, thanks for all the great info and insight...  and take care,

Glad to be of help, and I hope that OS X works out very well for you.

David Derbes

>
>- Ringo -

Madwen wrote:

> Really?  

<shrek> Really, really. </shrek>

> Are you serious or joking?

Serious.  There's been a lot of research done on aspartame, and a lot
of the results are, frankly, hair raising.  

However, I've never read any research implicating it in CTS, but when I
was going through my bout, I was also consuming a lot of aspartame from
diet soft drinks.  

Within a week of stopping that aspartame consumption my CTS symptoms
made a *dramatic* turn for the better. BTW,  I didn't stop due to the
aspartame, it was just a happy accident.

Coincidence?  My doctor thought so, and so did some researchers I later
contacted, but I'm sticking with my 73% certainty.   

Do some googling on aspartame to see just how "sweet it is." 

Yes, the web is filled with lots of pseudoscience and generic hysteria,
but there's reason enough, at least for me, to Nancy Reagan aspartame.

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

I am not a molecule. I am a free radical.

In article <barmar-5565E6.10520421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
Barry Margolin  <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <210720041020582573%seesig@bottom.net>,
> John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:
>
>>  Tom Stiller wrote:
>> 
>> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
>> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
>> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
>> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
>> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
>> 
>> An interesting premise, but probably one you don't want to share with a
>> lot of health professionals.
>> 
>> 1).  As early as 1913 the medical literature describes the pathology of
>> median nerve compression under the transverse carpal ligament.
>
>But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?

It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
(mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.

John Steinberg wrote:
> If memory serves, and it may not, most of the files that were touched
> were Apple files that I might (na�vely) characterize as system related.

I have found that some apps have an opinion about
the "correct" permissions that differs from the
opinion of 'fix permissions'

Fortunately in most cases things work both ways.
But when one of the two is dead wrong.....

-- 
Wes Groleau

Even if you do learn to speak correct English,
whom are you going to speak it to?
                     -- Clarence Darrow

In article <7d96e89e.0407210624.7d4c8c89@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> I'll double-check my box when I get home, but I think it only has one
> video output... though the specs you show above are right on in all
> other aspects.   Do you know whether the Radeon 9000 will support 3D
> on both monitors if using standard CRT monitors?  I'd love to go with
> duals, but I don't want to give-up graphic quality.  Also I can't
> afford dual LCD's :)  I'm looking at getting some games in the future,
> so I'll need the 3D for this.

I'm fairly certain it would.  Like about 99%...  But I don't know how to 
verify without actually having the card and trying it or having someone 
who has multiple monitors hooked up to an ATI Radeon 9000 card saying 
that it does.  But, with the ADC to VGA and a DVI to VGA connector you 
should be able to easily connect two VGA monitors to it.

All in all, I couldn't see why it wouldn't give you the Quartz Extreme 
being that the card has more than enough memory to handle two screens.

Greg B.

-- 
Actual e-mail address is gbuchner and I'm located at mn.rr.com

>>But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?
> 
> 
> It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
> keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
> (mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.

Yes, carpel tunnel has become the new "bellyache" :)

In article <CfCdnbjMk5vwW2PdRVn-qg@speakeasy.net>,
 russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote:

> In article <barmar-5565E6.10520421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
> Barry Margolin  <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> >In article <210720041020582573%seesig@bottom.net>,
> > John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:
> >
> >>  Tom Stiller wrote:
> >> 
> >> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> >> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> >> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> >> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> >> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
> >> 
> >> An interesting premise, but probably one you don't want to share with a
> >> lot of health professionals.
> >> 
> >> 1).  As early as 1913 the medical literature describes the pathology of
> >> median nerve compression under the transverse carpal ligament.
> >
> >But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?
> 
> It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
> keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
> (mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.

To the layman, is it really important precisely which RSI they have?  As 
far as they're concerned, their hand hurts when they type alot, that's 
all that matters.  This isn't a medical newsgroup.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

In article <barmar-3326D9.16583621072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
Barry Margolin  <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <CfCdnbjMk5vwW2PdRVn-qg@speakeasy.net>,
> russotto@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew Russotto) wrote:
>
>> In article <barmar-5565E6.10520421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
>> Barry Margolin  <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>> >In article <210720041020582573%seesig@bottom.net>,
>> > John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>  Tom Stiller wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
>> >> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
>> >> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
>> >> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
>> >> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
>> >> 
>> >> An interesting premise, but probably one you don't want to share with a
>> >> lot of health professionals.
>> >> 
>> >> 1).  As early as 1913 the medical literature describes the pathology of
>> >> median nerve compression under the transverse carpal ligament.
>> >
>> >But was it as widespread among keyboard users then as it is now?
>> 
>> It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
>> keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
>> (mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.
>
>To the layman, is it really important precisely which RSI they have? 

If they want to know how to treat it, sure.

And if you're trying to determine how widespread a certain condition
is and was, it's certainly relevant that the condition is now
incorrectly reported by many.

Matthew Russotto wrote:

> It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
> keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
> (mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.

No doubt.  Although making the clinical diagnoses is easy, any problems
related to the hand, fingers or wrist have a good chance of being
labeled CTS by John or Jane Q. Public.   

Not to point fingers (pun intended) but the medical community, OSHA,
and other public health groups, and their disagreements on CTS, are not
without some culpability for this confusion.  

This site may be of interest:
<http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/brochure/thr_report.cfm?Thread_ID=5&topcatego
ry=Hand>

I don't completely dismiss the possibility of computer keyboard use
being implicated in some cases of genuine CTS, but it would be the rare
typist who could actually injure their wrist while typing.  I mean,
that's some *serious* typing.  

Certainly a congenital defect might make any hand/wrist activity
causative but that would not account for the increased diagnoses of CTS
as reported by the CDC and others.

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

Perhaps what's most annoying about egoists is that they spend so little time
thinking about ME.

In article <210720041533167311%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> Madwen wrote:
> 
> > Really?  
> 
> <shrek> Really, really. </shrek>
> 
> > Are you serious or joking?
> 
> Serious.  There's been a lot of research done on aspartame, and a lot
> of the results are, frankly, hair raising.  
> 
> However, I've never read any research implicating it in CTS, but when I
> was going through my bout, I was also consuming a lot of aspartame from
> diet soft drinks.  
> 
> Within a week of stopping that aspartame consumption my CTS symptoms
> made a *dramatic* turn for the better. BTW,  I didn't stop due to the
> aspartame, it was just a happy accident.
> 
> Coincidence?  My doctor thought so, and so did some researchers I later
> contacted, but I'm sticking with my 73% certainty.   
> 
> Do some googling on aspartame to see just how "sweet it is." 
> 
> Yes, the web is filled with lots of pseudoscience and generic hysteria,
> but there's reason enough, at least for me, to Nancy Reagan aspartame.


Fascinating.  Well I asked because recently I had to stop using Splenda 
because of a really nasty intolerance.  So I started drinking soft 
drinks that had aspartame in them instead.  And for the first time in a 
very long time, (maybe since I stopped ingesting aspartame!) my 
ulnar-tunnel syndrome has been bothering me.

Coincidence?  I'll stop it to test  your theory.  After my reaction to 
Splenda, something entirely different, nothing would surprise me.  We're 
all guinea pigs now you know... all running around in our little 
tread-wheels to keep the economy growing.  ;)

..

Tee posted  on 7/20/04 6:23 PM:

> Wes Groleau wrote:
> 
>>My peeve is the bugs that seem to be in the filtering mechanism.
>>There's a troll in one particular NG who constantly changes his
>>"name" but it always contains a bad pun on a Japanese word.
>>But in Thunderbird's Message Filters, "where sender contains ____"
>>actually means "where sender is (exactly) _____"
>>
> I noticed that.  I set up a filter on a person's name, he never changes 
> it, but it didn't work.  I had to use his email address instead.  And 
> rather than applying to all newsgroups, it only applied to the newsgroup 
> I was in at the time (he frequents all the pets ngs).  I may have some 
> more homework to do with Thunderbird as maybe there's a selection for 
> "apply to all newsgroups" and I just haven't found it.

Not that I know of.  I usually click and hold on the 
poster's underlined e-mail address and choose "Create Filter 
from Message" and it works for that newsgroup.

One thing I would like to do is create a filter in one 
newsgroup that removes all posts that were cross posted from 
another newsgroup that I read.  I'm not sure if that's 
possible right now.  And also I'd like Thunderbird to not 
download killed threads for offline reading!

Is anyone having trouble with 0.6 or 0.7?  In both of them I 
found that choosing folders to be downloaded to work offline 
was broken, and I also kept getting an annoying message that 
my Inbox was in use, and then all my messages would 
disappear!  So I'm using 0.5.

-- 
Huan

Madwen wrote:

> Fascinating.  Well I asked because recently I had to stop using Splenda 
> because of a really nasty intolerance.  So I started drinking soft 
> drinks that had aspartame in them instead.  And for the first time in a 
> very long time, (maybe since I stopped ingesting aspartame!) my 
> ulnar-tunnel syndrome has been bothering me.

Amazing!  Yours would be the first case, that I've read, that has some
similarities to my own.  My episode dates back to a time well before
the mainstreaming of the www, and I sure got a lot of Dick Cheney
smiles when I started making this connection to health professionals.

Just for accurate chart keeping, are you engaged in any activities like
racquetball, tennis, guitar playing, etc., that might be implicated?  

> Coincidence?  I'll stop it to test  your theory.

Please keep me posted on your progress.  Aspartame is not metabolized
by something like ~10% of the general populace, but just how it *might*
be implicated in CTS and related is both fascinating,  perplexing, and
a little scary. 

Actually, so too is this:
http://www.mercola.com/article/aspartame/fraud.htm

> After my reaction to Splenda, something entirely different, nothing
> would surprise me.  We're all guinea pigs now you know... all running
> around in our little tread-wheels to keep the economy growing.  ;)

No wonder my tootsies are always aching!

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

I have become one with my computer...I have achieved nerdvana.
                                      -- Dilbert

Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/21/04 2:30 PM:

[snip]

> I also think Thunderbird is a good application, but what I hate mostly 
> is that I can�t get a particular message-ID, like in Outlook Express. 
> Does anyone know how to fetch a particular message-ID, like 
> <news:???.etc.etc.>?

I believe there are a couple of extensions you can download 
from Mozilla to do that.  I had them at one time, but not 
anymore, so I can't say much about how I liked them.

-- 
Huan

In article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
 Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:

[...]

> I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.

One theory is that it helped that they needed to swing the roll back to 
the left for every new line, thus enforcing variation. Makes sense to 
me. Lack of variation is what appears to cause carpal tunnel 
syndrome/tendenitis - not the strenghth itself. (I know, as a 
double-bass player I developed tendenitis once. Playing 5 sets a day for 
2 weeks, outside, unamplified, with drums, sax and electric guitar. 
Compared to pulling those strings typing is like breathing out softly in 
your sleep ;))

-- 
Sander Tekelenburg, <http://www.euronet.nl/~tekelenb/>

Mac user: "Macs only have 40 viruses, tops!"
PC user: "SEE! Not even the virus writers support Macs!"

Wes Groleau  <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:
 > John Steinberg wrote:
 > > If memory serves, and it may not, most of the files that were touched
 > > were Apple files that I might (na�vely) characterize as system related.
 > 
 > I have found that some apps have an opinion about
 > the "correct" permissions that differs from the
 > opinion of 'fix permissions'

The obvious question is, why would the permission bits of system
files be randomly changing?  This "fix permissions" thing is
something I've never seen on any system other than Mac OS.

In article <10fum7ti95shs8a@corp.supernews.com>,
 kyle_jones@wonderworks.com (Kyle Jones) wrote:

> Wes Groleau  <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:
>  > John Steinberg wrote:
>  > > If memory serves, and it may not, most of the files that were touched
>  > > were Apple files that I might (na�vely) characterize as system related.
>  > 
>  > I have found that some apps have an opinion about
>  > the "correct" permissions that differs from the
>  > opinion of 'fix permissions'
> 
> The obvious question is, why would the permission bits of system
> files be randomly changing?  This "fix permissions" thing is
> something I've never seen on any system other than Mac OS.

I don't know that it's been established that the changes are random.  
The process is directed by the files contained in /Library/Receipts.  
Some installers make changes to the permissions of affected directories,  
At one point, Apple had released installers which set different 
permissions on the same files.  This caused the fix permissions routine 
to report and "fix" the incorrect files twice on every run.

-- 
There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary, and those who don't.

Tom Stiller

PGP fingerprint =  5108 DDB2 9761 EDE5 E7E3 
                   7BDA 71ED 6496 99C0 C7CF

In article <210720041715314567%seesig@bottom.net>, John Steinberg
<seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> Matthew Russotto wrote:
> 
> > It's my understanding that CTS itself isn't all that common among
> > keyboard users; rather, a number of repetitive stress injuries are
> > (mistakenly) lumped under the term "carpal tunnel syndrome" by laypersons.
> 
> No doubt.  Although making the clinical diagnoses is easy, any problems
> related to the hand, fingers or wrist have a good chance of being
> labeled CTS by John or Jane Q. Public.

Not just John Q. Public.  Physicians themselves can have trouble
determining the source of such problems, and some physicians see
"carpal tunnel syndrome" as a fairly meaningless catch-all for these
sorts of problems.  I know some physicians who see CTS as a
money-making tool for the unscrupulous.  "Oh, yes, you've got CTS, and
it will require surgery!"

BTW, anyone concerned about these sorts of things should check out my
software, Coffee Break Pro.  Or something similar -- software that
makes you take breaks -- though I regret to say I have lost track of
current competition, so I can't make any other recommendations.  Taking
periodic breaks from keyboarding and mousing can make a huge
difference.

-- 
-Thomas

<http://www.bitjuggler.com/>

In article <user-B693B2.07061922072004@news.euro.net>, Sander
Tekelenburg <user@domain.invalid> wrote:

> In article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
>  Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
> 
> One theory is that it helped that they needed to swing the roll back to 
> the left for every new line, thus enforcing variation. Makes sense to 
> me. Lack of variation is what appears to cause carpal tunnel 
> syndrome/tendenitis - not the strenghth itself. (I know, as a 
> double-bass player I developed tendenitis once. Playing 5 sets a day for 
> 2 weeks, outside, unamplified, with drums, sax and electric guitar. 
> Compared to pulling those strings typing is like breathing out softly in 
> your sleep ;))

Yes, the variation in muscle/tendon use is the standard explanation. 
Not only did the typist have to hit the return lever after each line,
but he/she also had to put in new paper, use the white-out, etc.

Cathy

-- 
"there's a dance or two in the old dame yet." - mehitabel

C.Stevenson, M.D.
cats1921@sonic.net

In article <210720041824529038%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> Madwen wrote:
> 
> > Fascinating.  Well I asked because recently I had to stop using Splenda 
> > because of a really nasty intolerance.  So I started drinking soft 
> > drinks that had aspartame in them instead.  And for the first time in a 
> > very long time, (maybe since I stopped ingesting aspartame!) my 
> > ulnar-tunnel syndrome has been bothering me.
> 
> Amazing!  Yours would be the first case, that I've read, that has some
> similarities to my own.  My episode dates back to a time well before
> the mainstreaming of the www, and I sure got a lot of Dick Cheney
> smiles when I started making this connection to health professionals.

I can just imagine.

> Just for accurate chart keeping, are you engaged in any activities like
> racquetball, tennis, guitar playing, etc., that might be implicated?  

Nothing new

> > Coincidence?  I'll stop it to test  your theory.
> 
> Please keep me posted on your progress.  Aspartame is not metabolized
> by something like ~10% of the general populace, but just how it *might*
> be implicated in CTS and related is both fascinating,  perplexing, and
> a little scary. 


I will definitely let you know.  :)

Kyle Jones wrote:

> Wes Groleau  <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:
>  > I have found that some apps have an opinion about
>  > the "correct" permissions that differs from the
>  > opinion of 'fix permissions'
> 
> The obvious question is, why would the permission bits of system
> files be randomly changing?  This "fix permissions" thing is
> something I've never seen on any system other than Mac OS.

It's not "random" if running the app changes the permissions
to 123 and running "fix permissions" changes them to 321.

-- 
Wes Groleau
-----------
Curmudgeon's Complaints on Courtesy:
http://www.onlinenetiquette.com/courtesy1.html
(Not necessarily my opinion, but worth reading)

sombody wrote:
>>Serious.  There's been a lot of research done on aspartame, and a lot
>>of the results are, frankly, hair raising.  

There's been a lot of lies spouted about aspartame.

Seriously, if aspartame had one-quarter of the deadly effects
these loonies claim it has, there would be dead people everywhere.

On the other hand, there are indeed a few (percentage-wise)
people who are sensitive to it.  These people should not have it.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   A bureaucrat is someone who cuts red tape lengthwise.

In article <220720040953261543%cats1921@sonic.net>,
 Cathy Stevenson <cats1921@sonic.net> wrote:

> In article <user-B693B2.07061922072004@news.euro.net>, Sander
> Tekelenburg <user@domain.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > In article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
> >  Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
> > > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
> > > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
> > > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
> > > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
> > 
> > One theory is that it helped that they needed to swing the roll back to 
> > the left for every new line, thus enforcing variation. Makes sense to 
> > me. Lack of variation is what appears to cause carpal tunnel 
> > syndrome/tendenitis - not the strenghth itself. (I know, as a 
> > double-bass player I developed tendenitis once. Playing 5 sets a day for 
> > 2 weeks, outside, unamplified, with drums, sax and electric guitar. 
> > Compared to pulling those strings typing is like breathing out softly in 
> > your sleep ;))
> 
> Yes, the variation in muscle/tendon use is the standard explanation. 
> Not only did the typist have to hit the return lever after each line,
> but he/she also had to put in new paper, use the white-out, etc.

So I wonder if mice (or other pointing devices used with personal 
computers) may be helpful.  Prior to them, computer users kept their 
hands on the keyboard nearly 100% of the time, repetitively poking away 
at keys.  Now one hand often has to move away from the keyboard (or at 
least into a very different position away from the home row, in the case 
of trackpads), to move the mouse.  The eraserhead joystick is the only 
variant that keeps your hands in the same position as when typing.

An interesting statistic would be whether there's more incidence of RSI 
on the hand that doesn't operate the mouse.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

>>> Serious.  There's been a lot of research done on aspartame, and a lot
>>> of the results are, frankly, hair raising.  
> 
> 
> There's been a lot of lies spouted about aspartame.
> 
> Seriously, if aspartame had one-quarter of the deadly effects
> these loonies claim it has, there would be dead people everywhere.
> 
> On the other hand, there are indeed a few (percentage-wise)
> people who are sensitive to it.  These people should not have it.

Aspartame is formed by combining 2 animo acids, aspartic acid and 
phenylalanine.  When you eat it, you break it back down.  However, 
methanol is used in the synthesis process and can be made again when you 
break down aspartame.  The amino acids are nothing more than you'd get 
from any protein source, but the methanol can bother some people.  The 
amounts are too low to do an real harm to a healthy adult, but some 
people may be sensitive to low amounts of methanol and should not eat 
aspartame.

In article <cdp3mr$elft$1@netnews.upenn.edu>,
 David Besack <daveREMOVEbesack@mac.com> wrote:

> >>> Serious.  There's been a lot of research done on aspartame, and a lot
> >>> of the results are, frankly, hair raising.  
> > 
> > 
> > There's been a lot of lies spouted about aspartame.
> > 
> > Seriously, if aspartame had one-quarter of the deadly effects
> > these loonies claim it has, there would be dead people everywhere.
> > 
> > On the other hand, there are indeed a few (percentage-wise)
> > people who are sensitive to it.  These people should not have it.
> 
> Aspartame is formed by combining 2 animo acids, aspartic acid and 
> phenylalanine.  When you eat it, you break it back down.  However, 
> methanol is used in the synthesis process and can be made again when you 
> break down aspartame.  The amino acids are nothing more than you'd get 
> from any protein source, but the methanol can bother some people.  The 
> amounts are too low to do an real harm to a healthy adult, but some 
> people may be sensitive to low amounts of methanol and should not eat 
> aspartame.

What exactly is methanol if you don't mind me asking?

> What exactly is methanol if you don't mind me asking?

A type of alcohol that you can't drink.

Regular alcohol is ethanol.  However, you still get tiny amounts of 
things like methanol and formaldehyde in your average bottle of wine. 
They aren't dangerous in such small amounts.  But this goes back to my 
other statement about aspartame - some people who are sensitive to such 
things may not like the taste or effects of aspartame, but for most they 
are not consuming anything that is not already part of their everyday 
diet, and can handle it just fine.

Madwen wrote:

> What exactly is methanol if you don't mind me asking?

Short answer: a simple alcohol.

Long Answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
And then there's this: http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/methanol.faq

Any improvement in the UTS today?  : )

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either.

David Besack wrote:
> break down aspartame.  The amino acids are nothing more than you'd get 
> from any protein source, but the methanol can bother some people.  The 
> amounts are too low to do an real harm to a healthy adult, but some 
> people may be sensitive to low amounts of methanol and should not eat 
> aspartame.

I hear it contains formaldehyde, too.  But I also
hear a tomato contains _more_

Yes, some people should avoid it.  That in no way justifies
the lunatics trying to persuade us that Monsanto is trying
secretly to murder all dieters.

-- 
Wes Groleau
Can we afford to be relevant?
http://www.cetesol.org/stevick.html

In article <220720040953261543%cats1921@sonic.net>,
Cathy Stevenson  <cats1921@sonic.net> wrote:
>In article <user-B693B2.07061922072004@news.euro.net>, Sander
>Tekelenburg <user@domain.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
>>  Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
>> > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
>> > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
>> > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
>> > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
>> 
>> One theory is that it helped that they needed to swing the roll back to 
>> the left for every new line, thus enforcing variation. Makes sense to 
>> me. Lack of variation is what appears to cause carpal tunnel 
>> syndrome/tendenitis - not the strenghth itself. (I know, as a 
>> double-bass player I developed tendenitis once. Playing 5 sets a day for 
>> 2 weeks, outside, unamplified, with drums, sax and electric guitar. 
>> Compared to pulling those strings typing is like breathing out softly in 
>> your sleep ;))
>
>Yes, the variation in muscle/tendon use is the standard explanation. 
>Not only did the typist have to hit the return lever after each line,
>but he/she also had to put in new paper, use the white-out, etc.
>
>Cathy

Thanks, Dr. Stevenson! Most of us (certainly me) are just guessing, but
you actually know this stuff!

David Derbes


>
>-- 
>"there's a dance or two in the old dame yet." - mehitabel
>
>C.Stevenson, M.D.
>cats1921@sonic.net

In article <barmar-35D135.14535522072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
Barry Margolin  <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>In article <220720040953261543%cats1921@sonic.net>,
> Cathy Stevenson <cats1921@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <user-B693B2.07061922072004@news.euro.net>, Sander
>> Tekelenburg <user@domain.invalid> wrote:
>> 
>> > In article <tomstiller-5D5808.08514421072004@comcast.dca.giganews.com>,
>> >  Tom Stiller <tomstiller@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > 
>> > [...]
>> > 
>> > > I've often wondered about that.  For decades there were thousands of 
>> > > typists operating at well over 50 wpm and I never once heard of an 
>> > > ailment similar to the symptoms carpal tunnel syndrome.  My conjecture, 
>> > > 'though I have no credentials for making it, is that the longer travel 
>> > > and heavier touch provided for better muscle tone.
>> > 
>> > One theory is that it helped that they needed to swing the roll back to 
>> > the left for every new line, thus enforcing variation. Makes sense to 
>> > me. Lack of variation is what appears to cause carpal tunnel 
>> > syndrome/tendenitis - not the strenghth itself. (I know, as a 
>> > double-bass player I developed tendenitis once. Playing 5 sets a day for 
>> > 2 weeks, outside, unamplified, with drums, sax and electric guitar. 
>> > Compared to pulling those strings typing is like breathing out softly in 
>> > your sleep ;))
>> 
>> Yes, the variation in muscle/tendon use is the standard explanation. 
>> Not only did the typist have to hit the return lever after each line,
>> but he/she also had to put in new paper, use the white-out, etc.
>
>So I wonder if mice (or other pointing devices used with personal 
>computers) may be helpful.  Prior to them, computer users kept their 
>hands on the keyboard nearly 100% of the time, repetitively poking away 
>at keys.  Now one hand often has to move away from the keyboard (or at 
>least into a very different position away from the home row, in the case 
>of trackpads), to move the mouse.  The eraserhead joystick is the only 
>variant that keeps your hands in the same position as when typing.
>
>An interesting statistic would be whether there's more incidence of RSI 
>on the hand that doesn't operate the mouse.

IIRC there was recently a suggestion in the NY Times (or maybe the 
Financial Times, I forget) that right handed people should use the
mouse with their left, and vice-versa. The explanation was a little
flakey, but the writer tried it, and after a day or two getting used
to it, found that it relieved some wrist pain and maybe also fatigue.
YMMV.

David Derbes

>
>-- 
>Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
>Arlington, MA
>*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***

Wes Groleau wrote:

> Yes, some people should avoid it.  That in no way justifies
> the lunatics trying to persuade us that Monsanto is trying
> secretly to murder all dieters.

Argumentum ad hominem does not a compelling argument make. Indeed, it's
a logical fallacy.  

But extending the benefit of the doubt here, precisely what research
have you done, or can you cite, that would support such vituperative
remarks.  Your c.v. would also be germane.

-- 
-John Steinberg
email: not@thistime.invalid

                   -=  I link therefore I'm spammed  =-

In article <dq2dne_pN5K7mZ3cRVn-tA@gbronline.com>,
 Wes Groleau <groleau+news@freeshell.org> wrote:

> Seriously, if aspartame had one-quarter of the deadly effects
> these loonies claim it has, there would be dead people everywhere.

I can't help but point out that there *ARE* dead people everywhere. It 
just probably doesn't have much to do with aspartame...

-- 
Steven Fisher; sdfisher@spamcop.net
"Morituri Nolumus Mori."

In article <7d96e89e.0407190739.4287c138@posting.google.com>,
 rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) wrote:

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Nah, its halfway through its lifecycle.  I kind of wish Apple would 
discount it.

Fortunately, it *does* sell on eBay for about half price. I'm taking 
this route.

-- 
|\/|  /|  |2  |<
mehaase(at)sas(dot)upenn(dot)edu

Huan the hound wrote:
> Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/21/04 2:30 PM:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> I also think Thunderbird is a good application, but what I hate mostly 
>> is that I can�t get a particular message-ID, like in Outlook Express. 
>> Does anyone know how to fetch a particular message-ID, like 
>> <news:???.etc.etc.>?
> 
> 
> I believe there are a couple of extensions you can download from Mozilla 
> to do that.  I had them at one time, but not anymore, so I can't say 
> much about how I liked them.

Ok, thanks a lot for the info. But I couldn�t find anything at 
mozilla.org. Perhaps I should upgrade to newest version of Thunderbird 
tomorrow or in the weekend and hope that solves the problem...

If anyone has a link to the extension you�re talking about, then I�m 
very interested...

Best regards,
Martin J�rgensen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin J�rgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

John Steinberg wrote:
> But extending the benefit of the doubt here, precisely what research
> have you done, or can you cite, that would support such vituperative
> remarks.  Your c.v. would also be germane.

Since I became diabetic, I have looked into a lot of medical literature
pertinent.  I have never seen anything credible to support the aspartame
scares.  However, I am well aware that there are people who are sensitive
to it--as for almost every other edible item in existence.  I don't use it 
because it tastes terrible to me.

Beyond that, I have no qualifications whatsoever.  If you change your
opinion solely on the basis of my statements, you are making almost as
big a mistake as if you listen to Betty Markle aka "Betty Martini"

-- 
Wes Groleau
-----------

    "Thinking I'm dumb gives people something to
     feel smug about.  Why should I disillusion them?"
                             -- Charles Wallace
                             (in _A_Wrinkle_In_Time_)

In article <220720042027147659%seesig@bottom.net>,
 John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:

> Madwen wrote:
> 
> > What exactly is methanol if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> Short answer: a simple alcohol.
> 
> Long Answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol
> And then there's this: http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/methanol.faq
> 
> Any improvement in the UTS today?  : )


LOL! Yes, but I was going to give it a month trial.

Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/23/04 12:39 PM:

[snip]

> If anyone has a link to the extension you�re talking about, then I�m 
> very interested...

http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions/#messageid-finder

Look at this one and maybe the one below it, too.  I didn't 
end up liking them enough to reinstall them when I lost them.

I'd be interested to know how you like the latest version if 
you end up updating.

-- 
Huan

On 2004-07-19 08:39:02 -0700, rlangly@gmail.com (Ringo Langly) said:

> Hi all,
> 
> Last year I bought a used PowerMac G4 (Dual 866 with 768 Megs/Ram -
> OSX Jaguar) from a friend, and for the longest time it mainly sat idle
> only be using used as either a backup PC or for MS Office when needed
> (I don't run Windows at home).
> 
> Well last week the HD in my linux box crashed (data on seperate HD so
> all's good), but before reinstalling I decided to give the Mac a shot
> as my primary PC for a while.  Since Friday (through weekend) I did
> all my work on the Mac, posted items on Ebay, digital pics from
> vacation, web and graphic design, you name it... and I'm VERY
> impressed.  I'm liking this system more and more to the point of
> switching to it as my main box and keeping Linux on the back burner.

I've been running various distributions of Linux for the past 3 years 
and in March I  bought my iBook. The only thing I use my PC for now is 
Counter-Strike (and DOOM III when its out).

> I've been a computer guy for most my life, getting my first TRS-80
> well before high school, and I've used MS stuff since MS-DOS 3.3 and
> Windows since Win 3.1.  I dropped any type of MS operating system
> about 3 years ago at home because of its unstability and tendencty to
> be crapware and switched to Linux which I've been more then happy
> with.  Now that I've given OSX a try, I'm really liking it.  The last
> time I used a Mac to any great length was the old Mac Classics in high
> school.

Big difference. :)
> 
> I do have a few questions for those seasoned users out there:
> 
> 1) I've added a Logitech optical/scroll mouse, which I love, but what
> about a keyboard?  I've read the Microsoft Natural Elite will work,
> but anyone have experience?  I'm too used to my ergonomic keyboards
> and the little kb that came with the Mac kills me after 30 minutes of
> work.

If I were to get another keyboard it would have to be a wireless 
Logitech. I love my Logitech MX700 mouse.

> 2) Is Panther worth the $130 to buy?  Also should I hold out for Tiger
> instead?  I hate buying a new OS every 6 to 12 months (too
> Gates-like), but if Expose is all it's cut out to be, I might need to
> shell out the $130 fer it.

Don't wait for Tiger, its not likely to even be released this year. 
Panther is supposed to be faster than Jaguar so if thats important to 
you, then you should consider upgrading. Having only usesd Panther, I 
can't say what the main differences are, you should check online at 
Apple's site for more information about the new features.

> 3) Any good sources for Mac software online?  The only computer store
> we had that catered to the Mac crowd was CompUSA, but they shut down
> not long ago.

http://www.versiontracker.com and http://www.macupdate.com are good sources.

> 4) Is it possible to upgrade the Video in these Powermac G4 systems? 
> I'd love to upgrade to a dual-monitor card if that's possible -- but I
> need to stuck with standard SVGA monitors since the Mac monitors are
> too $$$ for my budget.
> 
> 5) What email client do most Mac users use?  I've started using the
> basic Mail program that came stock with Jaguar, and though it seems
> full featured, any others out there that blow it away?  Maybe a
> Eudora-like app? I'm never going back to Outlook or any MS email
> client.

I haven't yet found anything that Mail.app can't handle. I was going to 
look at MailSmith from Bare Bones Software but as soon as I saw it 
didn't support IMAP it became useless to me. I do hear good things 
about Entourage though, unfortunately, its part of Office for the Mac 
so its not cheap.

> Though Linux is still my bread and butter and hobby, I think the Mac
> will definately be a key system in my home office.  I've always herd
> once you go Mac you never go Back -- guess it's true :)

I haven't been let down yet. Remember too, you can run most *nix 
software on the Mac too! Look for Fink or Darwinports. I even had KDE 
3.2 running on my iBook.


-- 
Matt H
iBook G4 - 800MHz - 640MB RAM - 30GB HDD - Airport Extreme

Huan the hound wrote:
> Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/23/04 12:39 PM:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> If anyone has a link to the extension you�re talking about, then I�m 
>> very interested...
> 
> 
> http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions/#messageid-finder
> 
> Look at this one and maybe the one below it, too.  I didn't end up 
> liking them enough to reinstall them when I lost them.

Thanks, i installed the "messageid-finder"-extension and later on, I�ll 
see if anything changed...

> I'd be interested to know how you like the latest version if you end up 
> updating.

Sure, I�ll let you know whether I like it or not, if I make the 
upgrade... Haven�t decided yet.

Best regards,
Martin J�rgensen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin J�rgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

I read an article in the Globe and Mail (Canada's national newspaper) about
6 or 7 years ago where a reporter developed carpal tunnel and decided to use
a voice recognition system. Six months later he developed polyps on his
larynx. The voice system required a staccato type of speech to enunciate
words clear enough for it to understand. Stress seems to be more of a factor
than the device used.

Huan the hound wrote:
-snip-
> http://texturizer.net/thunderbird/extensions/#messageid-finder
> 
> Look at this one and maybe the one below it, too.  I didn't end up 
> liking them enough to reinstall them when I lost them.

Cool, now it works :-)

That was *EXACTLY* what I was looking for...

> I'd be interested to know how you like the latest version if you end up 
> updating.

Ok, so now I did the update to 0.7 last night at about 2 AM. I can�t see 
any major changes, but it feels a little more stable somehow... The 
extension manager has changed. And Mozilla.org wrote that it should be a 
little faster but I don�t know... Perhaps 1% faster :-)

Nothing in my setup has changed and there were no problems at all, so I 
guess you could do the update if you think, but not much has changed I 
think...

Best regards,
Martin J�rgensen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin J�rgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/25/04 2:20 PM:

[snip]

> Cool, now it works :-)
> 
> That was *EXACTLY* what I was looking for...

Good. :-)
[snip]

> Ok, so now I did the update to 0.7 last night at about 2 AM. I can�t see 
> any major changes, but it feels a little more stable somehow... The 
> extension manager has changed. And Mozilla.org wrote that it should be a 
> little faster but I don�t know... Perhaps 1% faster :-)
> 
> Nothing in my setup has changed and there were no problems at all, so I 
> guess you could do the update if you think, but not much has changed I 
> think...

I did try 0.7.  I had problems so I went back to 0.5 again. 
  My problems are mostly related to offline use, so you 
might not have trouble.  But every time I compacted folders, 
I got an error message about my e-mail inbox, and all the 
messages disappeared from it! (They weren't really gone, no 
problem)

-- 
Huan

Huan the hound wrote:
-snip-
> I did try 0.7.  I had problems so I went back to 0.5 again.  My problems 
> are mostly related to offline use, so you might not have trouble.  But 
> every time I compacted folders, I got an error message about my e-mail 
> inbox, and all the messages disappeared from it! (They weren't really 
> gone, no problem)

Ok, I don�t use it for e-mail-reading. Only news. But how do you compact 
a folder?

I thought Thunderbird did it automatically, whenever one quits the 
program or something like that...

Best regards,
Martin J�rgensen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Home of Martin J�rgensen - http://www.martinjoergensen.dk

In article <h_sLc.7$25.193@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
<loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:

> In article <200720041618298729%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
> Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >In article <OHcLc.25$25.6079@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
> ><loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> I have a sort of answer. I have a blue and white G3 that simply doesn't
> >> allow a keyboard to power it on, even with an Apple Pro keyboard. 
> >> I recently purchased a Tactile Pro keyboard (matias.com or from
> >> Small Dog Electronics, smalldog.com) which has this button, but it
> >> doesn't work with my computer. It may well work with a G4 or other.
> >> 
> >> David Derbes
> >> 
> >I just ordered the Matias Tactile Pro for my G4 DP/AGP. I'll let
> >you know if the power key works on this computer. It should arrive
> >in a couple of days so stay tuned.
> 
> Thanks, Ed!
> 
> DD
> 
> >
> >-- 
> >Ed Grant

The matias keyboard arrived this afternoon. I like the feel and.....
the power key worded right out of the box. So does the audio control
keys and the CD eject key. No need to install the included drivers
that came on an additional CD.

My computer is a DP G4/AGP 500 mhz upgraded to 1.3 GHz running 10.3.4.
This keyboard has so much better feedback then Apple's.

-- 
Ed Grant

In article <260720041542533376%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
 Ed Grant <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> The matias keyboard arrived this afternoon. I like the feel and.....
> the power key worded right out of the box. So does the audio control
> keys and the CD eject key. No need to install the included drivers
> that came on an additional CD.

Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?

-- 
Steven Fisher; sdfisher@spamcop.net
"Morituri Nolumus Mori."

Martin J�rgensen posted  on 7/26/04 12:05 PM:

[snip]
> Ok, I don�t use it for e-mail-reading. Only news. But how do you compact 
> a folder?
> 
> I thought Thunderbird did it automatically, whenever one quits the 
> program or something like that...

If you have things set up to only mark mail as deleted when 
you hit the delete key, then choosing Compact Folders from 
the File menu will actually get rid of the mail.  Maybe you 
won't use it if you are only using Thunderbird for news.

-- 
Huan

In article <sdfisher-F0CCAE.15273226072004@news.va.shawcable.net>,
Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:

> In article <260720041542533376%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
>  Ed Grant <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> > The matias keyboard arrived this afternoon. I like the feel and.....
> > the power key worded right out of the box. So does the audio control
> > keys and the CD eject key. No need to install the included drivers
> > that came on an additional CD.
> 
> Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?

I don't know. What combinations?

-- 
Ed Grant

In article <260720041542533376%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>In article <h_sLc.7$25.193@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
><loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
>> In article <200720041618298729%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
>> Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >In article <OHcLc.25$25.6079@news.uchicago.edu>, david raoul derbes
>> ><loki@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have a sort of answer. I have a blue and white G3 that simply doesn't
>> >> allow a keyboard to power it on, even with an Apple Pro keyboard. 
>> >> I recently purchased a Tactile Pro keyboard (matias.com or from
>> >> Small Dog Electronics, smalldog.com) which has this button, but it
>> >> doesn't work with my computer. It may well work with a G4 or other.
>> >> 
>> >> David Derbes
>> >> 
>> >I just ordered the Matias Tactile Pro for my G4 DP/AGP. I'll let
>> >you know if the power key works on this computer. It should arrive
>> >in a couple of days so stay tuned.
>> 
>> Thanks, Ed!
>> 
>> DD
>> 
>> >
>> >-- 
>> >Ed Grant
>
>The matias keyboard arrived this afternoon. I like the feel and.....
>the power key worded right out of the box. So does the audio control
>keys and the CD eject key. No need to install the included drivers
>that came on an additional CD.
>
>My computer is a DP G4/AGP 500 mhz upgraded to 1.3 GHz running 10.3.4.
>This keyboard has so much better feedback then Apple's.
>
>-- 
>Ed Grant

Thanks again, and I'm glad to hear that (a) the power key works, and
(b) that you seem to be enjoying the keyboard.

I forgot to mention the volume up, volume down, mute  and CD eject 
(or open) keys. These work fine on my ancient Blue & White, even
though the power key does not work.

David Derbes

In article <270720040153422372%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>In article <sdfisher-F0CCAE.15273226072004@news.va.shawcable.net>,
>Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <260720041542533376%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
>>  Ed Grant <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > The matias keyboard arrived this afternoon. I like the feel and.....
>> > the power key worded right out of the box. So does the audio control
>> > keys and the CD eject key. No need to install the included drivers
>> > that came on an additional CD.
>> 
>> Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?
>
>I don't know. What combinations?

I echo that: What combinations? I haven't had any troubles, except that
the num lock key doesn't seem to work (nor can I get the LED to light.)
Big deal. 

David Derbes

>
>-- 
>Ed Grant

In comp.sys.mac.misc nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
: keyboards are a subjective thing. buy a usb keyboard you find
: comfortable. the only issue is the command key might be in a different
: place.

As another person considering making the linux->mac switch, I have
a question.  The only kbs that I like are the old style IBM AT keyboards
(you know, clickety clackety and all of that).  It would kill me to
have to switch to some sucky newfangled keyboard.  Does there exist
any sort of adapter that will allow an older kb to plug into a usb
kb slot?

In comp.sys.mac.misc John Steinberg <seesig@bottom.net> wrote:
: 2). Muscle tone is probably not an issue in carpal tunnel syndrome. 

Also, the OP is almost certainly misusing the term 'muscle tone'.

In article <kWtNc.24$45.8680@news.uchicago.edu>,
 loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:

> In article <270720040153422372%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
> Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >In article <sdfisher-F0CCAE.15273226072004@news.va.shawcable.net>,
> >Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?
> >
> >I don't know. What combinations?
> 
> I echo that: What combinations? I haven't had any troubles, except that
> the num lock key doesn't seem to work (nor can I get the LED to light.)
> Big deal. 

Based on the wonderful things said in this thread about the Tactile Pro 
keyboard, I too went ahead and ordered one. It just arrived today. I fairly 
quickly noticed a key combo problem: Cmd-Shift key combos don't work if I use 
the *right* Cmd key and the *right* Shift key. Left-Cmd-Left-Shift work fine, 
as do Right-Cmd-Left-Shift and Left-Cmd-Right-Shift. This is a bummer, since I 
am used to doing Cmd-Shift-Delete with my right hand to empty the trash.

I didn't install the driver. AFAICT it's supposed to enable the volume and 
eject keys under OS X 10.2. I am running Panther, and the volume and eject 
keys work fine, as does the power button (my computer is a Blue & White).

As for the Num Lock key, well, I assume it's not really supposed to work, 
since the number pad on a Macintosh is *always* a number pad. (Note the lack 
of Home/End/etc. labels on the number pad of any Mac keyboard.) I assume the 
Num Lock key only works on Windows machines, or possibly under Virtual PC.

Another difference I noticed is that the USB ports on the the Matias keyboard 
are rotated 180 degrees in relation to the ones on the Apple keyboard. So now 
my mouse cable and Palm cradle cable are bent/twisted in the wrong direction. 
:-)

But overall, I like it. And now everyone can hear me type for miles around. :-)

-- 
Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
#!/usr/bin/env ruby
c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

Oh, one more thing about the Matias keyboard: The web site has a Dvorak key 
layout that you can download. I'm just using the built in OS X one; does 
anyone know if there's a difference or advantage to one over the other?

-- 
Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
#!/usr/bin/env ruby
c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

Karl von Laudermann wrote:

> In article <kWtNc.24$45.8680@news.uchicago.edu>,
>  loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:
> 
> 
>>In article <270720040153422372%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
>>Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>In article <sdfisher-F0CCAE.15273226072004@news.va.shawcable.net>,
>>>Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?
>>>
>>>I don't know. What combinations?
>>
>>I echo that: What combinations? I haven't had any troubles, except that
>>the num lock key doesn't seem to work (nor can I get the LED to light.)
>>Big deal. 
> 
> 
> Based on the wonderful things said in this thread about the Tactile Pro 
> keyboard, I too went ahead and ordered one. It just arrived today. I fairly 
> quickly noticed a key combo problem: Cmd-Shift key combos don't work if I use 
> the *right* Cmd key and the *right* Shift key. Left-Cmd-Left-Shift work fine, 
> as do Right-Cmd-Left-Shift and Left-Cmd-Right-Shift. This is a bummer, since I 
> am used to doing Cmd-Shift-Delete with my right hand to empty the trash.
> 
> I didn't install the driver. AFAICT it's supposed to enable the volume and 
> eject keys under OS X 10.2. I am running Panther, and the volume and eject 
> keys work fine, as does the power button (my computer is a Blue & White).
> 
> As for the Num Lock key, well, I assume it's not really supposed to work, 
> since the number pad on a Macintosh is *always* a number pad. (Note the lack 
> of Home/End/etc. labels on the number pad of any Mac keyboard.) I assume the 
> Num Lock key only works on Windows machines, or possibly under Virtual PC.
> 

Current Apple keyboards have Num Lock, Home, and End keys.

Greg
-- 
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll

In article <karlvonl-97F0B9.22095728072004@reader3.news.rcn.net>,
Karl von Laudermann  <karlvonl@rcn.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <kWtNc.24$45.8680@news.uchicago.edu>,
> loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:
>
>> In article <270720040153422372%egrant_@sbcglobal.net>,
>> Ed Grant  <egrant_@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >In article <sdfisher-F0CCAE.15273226072004@news.va.shawcable.net>,
>> >Steven Fisher <sdfisher@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> Are they still having problems with certain key combinations?
>> >
>> >I don't know. What combinations?
>> 
>> I echo that: What combinations? I haven't had any troubles, except that
>> the num lock key doesn't seem to work (nor can I get the LED to light.)
>> Big deal. 
>
>Based on the wonderful things said in this thread about the Tactile Pro 
>keyboard, I too went ahead and ordered one. It just arrived today. I fairly 
>quickly noticed a key combo problem: Cmd-Shift key combos don't work if I use 
>the *right* Cmd key and the *right* Shift key. Left-Cmd-Left-Shift work fine, 
>as do Right-Cmd-Left-Shift and Left-Cmd-Right-Shift. This is a bummer, 
>since I am used to doing Cmd-Shift-Delete with my right hand to empty the 
>trash.
>

I am embarrassed to reply that I never even _noticed_ the right Command key.
Thanks, Karl, for reporting this.

>I didn't install the driver. AFAICT it's supposed to enable the volume and 
>eject keys under OS X 10.2. I am running Panther, and the volume and eject 
>keys work fine, as does the power button (my computer is a Blue & White).
>

_That's_ interesting. My power key does NOT work, and I have a Blue & White.

>As for the Num Lock key, well, I assume it's not really supposed to work, 
>since the number pad on a Macintosh is *always* a number pad. (Note the lack 
>of Home/End/etc. labels on the number pad of any Mac keyboard.) I assume the 
>Num Lock key only works on Windows machines, or possibly under Virtual PC.
>
>Another difference I noticed is that the USB ports on the the Matias keyboard 
>are rotated 180 degrees in relation to the ones on the Apple keyboard. So now 
>my mouse cable and Palm cradle cable are bent/twisted in the wrong direction. 
>:-)
>
>But overall, I like it. And now everyone can hear me type for miles around. 
:-) 

Well, that you like it is the important thing. I like mine a lot.

David Derbes
>
>-- 
>Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
>#!/usr/bin/env ruby
>c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
>50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

In article <dS4Oc.9$55.4151@news.uchicago.edu>,
 loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:

> _That's_ interesting. My power key does NOT work, and I have a Blue & White.

Well, I never shut my computer off, so I only verified that pressing the power 
key brings up the confirmation dialog. I haven't tried using it to turn the 
computer on frum a shut down state. But I have no reason to think it won't 
work either. Is your keyboard connected to a hub, or directly to the machine? 
If the latter, have you tried it in both ports?

-- 
Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
#!/usr/bin/env ruby
c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

In article <karlvonl-B7F453.22141128072004@reader3.news.rcn.net>, Karl
von Laudermann <karlvonl@rcn.com.invalid> wrote:

> Oh, one more thing about the Matias keyboard: The web site has a Dvorak key 
> layout that you can download. I'm just using the built in OS X one; does 
> anyone know if there's a difference or advantage to one over the other?

Haven't a clue. I've been using the OS X Dvorak too. I even rearranged
the keys to reflect that layout. Learned Dvorak while in S. Korea back
in 1984 on an Osborne Computer. Guess that makes me an old fart. :-)

-- 
Ed Grant

In article <karlvonl-1D7F0E.23113229072004@reader3.news.rcn.net>,
Karl von Laudermann  <karlvonl@rcn.com.invalid> wrote:
>In article <dS4Oc.9$55.4151@news.uchicago.edu>,
> loki@midway.uchicago.edu (david raoul derbes) wrote:
>
>> _That's_ interesting. My power key does NOT work, and I have a Blue & White.
>
>Well, I never shut my computer off, so I only verified that pressing the 
>power key brings up the confirmation dialog. I haven't tried using it to 
>turn the computer on frum a shut down state. But I have no reason to 
>think it won't work either. Is your keyboard connected to a hub, or 
>directly to the machine? 
>If the latter, have you tried it in both ports?

(deep embarrassment) The power key DOES work in the manner you suggest;
(which I'd not tried before, what a moron I am). If I press the power key
while the computer is on, it brings up the "Are you sure you want to 
shut down now?" However, when plugged into a USB Belkin port, the power
key does not turn the computer on. I'll try plugging it directly into the
CPU, but I'm skeptical. After twenty years with a Mac, I'd never used the
key to shut down, only to start up. (I shut down from the menu bar, when
I turn the machine off, which ain't often.)

Thanks for responding.

David Derbes


>-- 
>Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
>#!/usr/bin/env ruby
>c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
>50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

In article <karlvonl-B7F453.22141128072004@reader3.news.rcn.net>,
 Karl von Laudermann <karlvonl@rcn.com.invalid> wrote:

> Oh, one more thing about the Matias keyboard: The web site has a Dvorak key 
> layout that you can download. I'm just using the built in OS X one; does 
> anyone know if there's a difference or advantage to one over the other?

I downloaded and played with the Matias Dvorak layout, and discovered the 
answer to my own question: In the Matias layout, the arrangement of the keys 
when Option is pressed is identical to the QWERTY layout. Thus, you can use 
Dvorak for typing and for Command-key combos, but the extra symbols on the key 
caps for Option and Option-Shift are still accurate.

It's just too bad that on my keyboard, the Option-symbols are now covered up 
with Dvorak stickers. :-/

-- 
Karl von Laudermann - karlvonl(a)rcn.com - http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl
#!/usr/bin/env ruby
c=" .,:;i|+=ahHME8";def l(a,b,c)x=b-a;y=c-a;Math.sqrt(x*x+y*y)end;25.times{|y|
50.times{|x|print(l(12,x/2,y)<=12?((c[l(8,x/2,y).to_i]||36).chr):" ")};puts""}

I am only part way through this thread but thought I would interject. 
The fink and opendarwin porting projects are being wrapped into gentooX 
which you are most likely familiar with if you are a linux guru. Fink is 
the dominant working package manager right now, but gentoox is worth 
looking at as well. Change it's make.conf file to include ppc building 
and it works for many packages.

Dave


> Dunno if you program, but you should perhaps be aware of fink and the
> whole port-every-GNU/Linux-app-known-to-man-woman-or-child-to-OS X
> project. There are terrific apps out there that are absolutely free
> (My thanks to Gerben Wierda for teTeX and the folks who wrote TexShop.
> If you do technical writing on a Mac without these, you're working 
> much too hard.)\

* Dave Smith [08/05/2004 13:18 PDT]:
> I am only part way through this thread but thought I would interject.
> The fink and opendarwin porting projects are being wrapped into
> gentooX which you are most likely familiar with if you are a linux
> guru. Fink is the dominant working package manager right now, but
> gentoox is worth looking at as well. Change it's make.conf file to
> include ppc building and it works for many packages.

I would suggest checking out darwinports. Works quite well. I'm
surprised you didn't include that in your list.

-- 
-=Elden=-
http://www.eldenf.com