since I seem to be on a roll - and this topic was brought up in the 
spotlight thread......
: )

what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
(widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
alone applications.

More of the 'forward to the past' (TM) thinking going on at Apple 
(software) these days.

This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.

putting on Nomax undies now  : )

Fetch, Rover, Fetch:
> since I seem to be on a roll - and this topic was brought up in the 
> spotlight thread......

> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.

I can't possibly know if Dashboard has any value to you. It has great
value to me as a writer (dictionary, translation) and an amateur
astronomer (weather and the Clear Sky Clock widget.)

> This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
> accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.

I don't recall System 6 having any of the features that Dashboard has;
certainly not the Oxford American Dictionary, the real-time weather,
the ability to choose to listen to any one of a wide selection of radio
stations with a single click, and the ability to launch it all with a
single keystroke.

Davoud

-- 
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

In article <OdSdnU7jpJeLg_XeRVn-uQ@comcast.com>, "Fetch, Rover, Fetch"
<Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:

> since I seem to be on a roll - and this topic was brought up in the 
> spotlight thread......
> : )
> 
> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.
> 
> More of the 'forward to the past' (TM) thinking going on at Apple 
> (software) these days.
> 
> This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
> accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.
> 
> putting on Nomax undies now  : )

Nope. Dashboard is useless since you can't have the Widget running AND
continue using another application. Makes you wonder why people even
bother with email checker Widgets, the only way to know if there's new
mail is to bring the silly Dashboard "screen" to the front again.  :-\

Desk Accessories were MUCH MUCH more useful.

In article <021120051856478083%anybody@anywhere-anytime.com>, Anybody
<anybody@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:

> Nope. Dashboard is useless since you can't have the Widget running AND
> continue using another application. Makes you wonder why people even
> bother with email checker Widgets, the only way to know if there's new
> mail is to bring the silly Dashboard "screen" to the front again.  :-\

you *can* run dashboard widgets alongside applications but you need to
turn on developer mode (there is even a widget that does this).  then,
with a contorted drag the widget and simultaneously hit the dashboard
fkey motion, you can drag a widget out of dashboard's 'screen.'  

> Desk Accessories were MUCH MUCH more useful.

that they were.  my personal favourite are widgets into which you type
a query and it then just exits dashboard and opens a page in a browser
with that query.

In article <OdSdnU7jpJeLg_XeRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
 "Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:
> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.

So, your way, if I want to check the weather, I'd have to launch one 
application.  If I want a quick check on how my mutual funds are doing, 
I'd have to launch another application.  If I want to see the time in 
Moscow, I'd have to use a third application.  If I want a quick 
calculation, a fourth application.  And so on.

With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same 
time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
 
> More of the 'forward to the past' (TM) thinking going on at Apple 
> (software) these days.
> 
> This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
> accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.

It's not like desk accessories at all.  The key interface aspect of 
Dashboard is that all your widgets come and go as a group.  Desk 
accessories did not work that way.
 

-- 
--Tim Smith

Davoud wrote:
> Fetch, Rover, Fetch:
> 
>>since I seem to be on a roll - and this topic was brought up in the 
>>spotlight thread......
> 
> 
>>what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
>>(widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
>>alone applications.
> 
> 
> I can't possibly know if Dashboard has any value to you. It has great
> value to me as a writer (dictionary, translation) and an amateur
> astronomer (weather and the Clear Sky Clock widget.)


i never said that ter were not functional widgets, I asked -
'...what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications
(widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand
alone applications."

so the specifc widgets you like could be stand alone applications, no 
need to 'invoke' the dasboard, no modality - lack of access to other 
running applications while using a widget.

> 
>>This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
>>accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.
> 
> 
> I don't recall System 6 having any of the features that Dashboard has;
> certainly not the Oxford American Dictionary, the real-time weather,
> the ability to choose to listen to any one of a wide selection of radio
> stations with a single click, and the ability to launch it all with a
> single keystroke.
> 
> Davoud
> 
I was referring to the dashboard interface - not specific widget 
functionality.

system 1 -> 4.x used a modal desk accessory interface
open a DA and it 'takes over' the computer until closed - at least most did.

In system 6 DAs (and other apps) got access to time sliced multi-tasking 
and the modal (general DA) interface went away.

Tim Smith wrote:
> In article <OdSdnU7jpJeLg_XeRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
>  "Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:
> 
>>what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
>>(widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
>>alone applications.
> 
> 
> So, your way, if I want to check the weather, I'd have to launch one 
> application.  If I want a quick check on how my mutual funds are doing, 
> I'd have to launch another application.  If I want to see the time in 
> Moscow, I'd have to use a third application.  If I want a quick 
> calculation, a fourth application.  And so on.
> 
> With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same 
> time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
>  
except that you *ARE* running separate applications for each of these 
functions -
it is just that they are hidden/accessed though a single interface.

> 
>>More of the 'forward to the past' (TM) thinking going on at Apple 
>>(software) these days.
>>
>>This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
>>accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.
> 
> 
> It's not like desk accessories at all.  The key interface aspect of 
> Dashboard is that all your widgets come and go as a group.  Desk 
> accessories did not work that way.
>  
> 

In article <021120051856478083%anybody@anywhere-anytime.com>,
 Anybody <anybody@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
[...]
> Desk Accessories were MUCH MUCH more useful.

Indeed, but Desk Accessories arose in the time before MutiFinder, before 
Switcher, when the Mac had just a single thread of execution. At that 
time, Bud Tribble and Andy Hertzfeld noticed that drivers were able to 
run asynchronously. If you were careful, a driver could have its own 
user interface running alongside the application's window(s). A Desk 
Accessory was just a driver with a GUI.

With the advent of multi-taksing, it was much easier to code an 
application than a driver. Applications became more useful. They still 
are.

Dashboard widgets are often more convenient, and that's enough for me:-)

-- 
John
jmatthews at wright dot edu
www dot wright dot edu/~john.matthews/

"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:reply_in_group-4E2643.02043202112005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <OdSdnU7jpJeLg_XeRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
>  "Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:
> > what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications
> > (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand
> > alone applications.
>
> So, your way, if I want to check the weather, I'd have to launch one
> application.  If I want a quick check on how my mutual funds are doing,
> I'd have to launch another application.  If I want to see the time in
> Moscow, I'd have to use a third application.  If I want a quick
> calculation, a fourth application.  And so on.
>

I rarely want to do a quick calculation while I'm checking how my friends
are doing.  Why would I want all these other widgets popping up if I only
want to do a calculation?

> With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same
> time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
>

Big deal, I click on an app, do my thing, click on one button and it's gone.

Greg

Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> So, your way, if I want to check the weather, I'd have to launch one 
> application.  If I want a quick check on how my mutual funds are doing, 
> I'd have to launch another application.  If I want to see the time in 
> Moscow, I'd have to use a third application.  If I want a quick 
> calculation, a fourth application.  And so on.

Hi, Tim. I'm not sure that's an accurate description. The weather is an
icon at the bottom of my Firefox window. Hold the cursor over one little
cloud or sun, and the current conditions pop up, over the next little icon,
and the forecast pops up. I don't have to stop browsing. :-) For my stock,
I just click the bookmark and I can have it open in another window, if I
choose. I don't have to stop watching that video of Paris and whoever. The
time in Moscow is in my menu bar with iClock. Just click on the time and
whatever times I've set drop down for me. I don't have to stop my word
processor to get a quick check. Just a click and I'm through. Uh, if I want
a quick calculation, I'm sorry to say I pick up my HP 19B, though. The one
widget I would be interested in is a flight tracker, and the one I found
that shows the little airplane over a map of the US is way too clunky;
using the airline's web page is _much_ faster, and again, I can put that in
a separate window and keep working on something else.

I understand that the way Dashboard works speaks to you, but it's in my
dock and the only time it pops up is when I miss some key in the top row of
my keyboard (well, the row below the function keys) and hit some function
key. It just doesn't work the way I'm interested in working. Mileages vary,
reasonable people disagree, etc.
-- 
Phil Stripling           | email to the replyto address is presumed
The Civilized Explorer   | spam and read later. email from this URL
http://www.cieux.com/    | http://www.civex.com/     is read daily.

In article <CqKdnVFjxczHIfXeRVn-1w@comcast.com>, Fetch, Rover, Fetch
<Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:

> system 1 -> 4.x used a modal desk accessory interface
> open a DA and it 'takes over' the computer until closed - at least most did.

false.  desk accessories always ran alongside whatever app was running
and more than one could be open at one time.

> In system 6 DAs (and other apps) got access to time sliced multi-tasking 
> and the modal (general DA) interface went away.

again wrong.

the only real change occured was with multifinder where desk accesories
ran in their own layer rather than within the host app.

In article <021120050038135188%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <021120051856478083%anybody@anywhere-anytime.com>, Anybody
> <anybody@anywhere-anytime.com> wrote:
> 
> > Nope. Dashboard is useless since you can't have the Widget running AND
> > continue using another application. Makes you wonder why people even
> > bother with email checker Widgets, the only way to know if there's new
> > mail is to bring the silly Dashboard "screen" to the front again.  :-\
> 
> you *can* run dashboard widgets alongside applications but you need to
> turn on developer mode (there is even a widget that does this).  then,
> with a contorted drag the widget and simultaneously hit the dashboard
> fkey motion, you can drag a widget out of dashboard's 'screen.'  

"fkey" ... more like "flakey".  ;-)

Davoud:
> > I don't recall System 6 having any of the features that Dashboard has;
> > certainly not the Oxford American Dictionary, the real-time weather,
> > the ability to choose to listen to any one of a wide selection of radio
> > stations with a single click, and the ability to launch it all with a
> > single keystroke.
> > Davoud

Fetch, Rover, Fetch:
> I was referring to the dashboard interface - not specific widget 
> functionality.

I also referred to the interface: "...the ability to launch it all with
a single keystroke."

Once more, I'm not arguing that Dashboard is better than System 6 DA's
for you. I am asserting that Dashboard is very good /for me/ -- the
functionality of specific Widgets /and/ the interface.

Davoud

-- 
usenet *at* davidillig dawt com

On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 21:03:27 -0500
"Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:

> since I seem to be on a roll - and this topic was brought up in the 
> spotlight thread......
> : )
> 
> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.
> 
> More of the 'forward to the past' (TM) thinking going on at Apple 
> (software) these days.
> 
> This is an interface that was thrown away with release of OS 6 - desk 
> accessories - modal (or mostly so) applets.
> 
> putting on Nomax undies now  : )

It's like that box you keep handy stuff in... it's always being
rummaged through for something, but there is always one or several
things you like to use now and then that would otherwise get lost.

I have friends in several countries... having 4 clocks is a no
brainer.  Time and weather go hand in hand... and when you want it you
want it now.  yadda yadda etc etc

It's an old program type recycled... I like how this one is done,
because all the little stuff and junk is handy and organized when you
need it and it can be left alone for days.  Now, the widget junkie
syndrome, that's a different subject.  Those folks probably love
Spotlight and screen savers.  ;-()

Jeff

Fetch, Rover, Fetch wrote:
> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.

I've found it handy for setting up locks for other time zones. Where 
there's one use, there's many.

-- Steve

In article <11mhukjgojvnid3@corp.supernews.com>,
 "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same
> > time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
> >
> 
> Big deal, I click on an app, do my thing, click on one button and it's gone.

So if you have 10 such apps, you've got 10 different things to click on.  
If you have 20 such apps, you've got 20 different things to click on.

With Dashboard, I have *one* button that works for *all* of them.


-- 
--Tim Smith

Tim Smith <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> In article <11mhukjgojvnid3@corp.supernews.com>,
>  "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>> > With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same
>> > time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
>> >
>> 
>> Big deal, I click on an app, do my thing, click on one button and it's gone.
>
> So if you have 10 such apps, you've got 10 different things to click on.  
> If you have 20 such apps, you've got 20 different things to click on.
>
> With Dashboard, I have *one* button that works for *all* of them.

On Linux and Windows, you don't have to click on them at all.
They just live on a strip (similar to the Dock) that pops in
when you want to see it; you put the mouse over them to bring
up the full window.   You can also optionally just leave the
strip exposed, which allows you to view status-showing widgets
in real time while the main desktop is visible.

"Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
news:reply_in_group-F212AF.06122203112005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
> In article <11mhukjgojvnid3@corp.supernews.com>,
>  "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same
> > > time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
> > >
> >
> > Big deal, I click on an app, do my thing, click on one button and it's
gone.
>
> So if you have 10 such apps, you've got 10 different things to click on.
> If you have 20 such apps, you've got 20 different things to click on.
>
> With Dashboard, I have *one* button that works for *all* of them.
>

This is comical.  So with Dashboard now you have 20 apps cluttering your
screen when you only want to use one?  I never want to do 20 different
things at the same time, I don't even want to do 10 different things at the
same time.

Greg

In article <11mkigbgers0ic6@corp.supernews.com>, "G.T."
<getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:

> "Tim Smith" <reply_in_group@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:reply_in_group-F212AF.06122203112005@news1.east.earthlink.net...
> > In article <11mhukjgojvnid3@corp.supernews.com>,
> >  "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > > > With Dashboard, I press *one* key, and I have all of those at the same
> > > > time.  I press the key again, and they are gone.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Big deal, I click on an app, do my thing, click on one button and it's
> > > gone.
> >
> > So if you have 10 such apps, you've got 10 different things to click on.
> > If you have 20 such apps, you've got 20 different things to click on.
> >
> > With Dashboard, I have *one* button that works for *all* of them.
> 
> This is comical.  So with Dashboard now you have 20 apps cluttering your
> screen when you only want to use one?  I never want to do 20 different
> things at the same time, I don't even want to do 10 different things at the
> same time.

Yep, I just want to use a calculator or I want an email checker to tell
me when new mail actually arrives, not when I eventually have time to
fill the screen with Dashboard. 

Dashboard is simply another of the rather hopeless toys added to Mac OS
X to induce the "wow" factor (and churn up processor time so that you
"must" upgrade to something faster). Some people find it useful, many
do not, thankfully it's not necessary to use it for anything ... yet!

In article <OdSdnU7jpJeLg_XeRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
 "Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> wrote:
> what use or value is there is a 'modal' interface to applications 
> (widegts) that could just as easily been written/created as simple stand 
> alone applications.

I'm not normally in favour of modal interfaces.  However I found myself 
leaving a couple of time zone clocks, plus some weather and weather 
radar widgets, and Cicero (Latin text generator for test page content), 
and a calculator up in Dashboard.  If something proves handy I'm willing 
to ignore my philosophical objection to modal interfaces.

However with so many (mostly free) widgets, a better interface to new 
widgets is now needed.  Multiple rows of of them perhaps when looking 
for newly installed ones.  Perhaps even multiple tabbed Dashboard 
screens for ones that are open.  Most people will only use a single 
screen, but enthusiasts will exceed their available area quickly. I 
guess it depends on how much CPU and memory they eat, but most of the 
ones I've tried seem well behaved.

-- 
http://www.ericlindsay.com

In article <11mkigbgers0ic6@corp.supernews.com>,
 "G.T." <getnews1@dslextreme.com> wrote:
> > So if you have 10 such apps, you've got 10 different things to click on.
> > If you have 20 such apps, you've got 20 different things to click on.
> >
> > With Dashboard, I have *one* button that works for *all* of them.
> >
> 
> This is comical.  So with Dashboard now you have 20 apps cluttering your
> screen when you only want to use one?  I never want to do 20 different
> things at the same time, I don't even want to do 10 different things at the
> same time.

Say I want to know the weather forecast tomorrow.  I hit F12, and glance 
at the lower right of my screen, and there it is.  I hit F12 again, and 
it is gone.

Later, I want to check my stocks.  I hit F12, and glance at the middle 
left of my screen, and there it is.  I hit F12 and it is gone.

What you seem to have somehow overlooked is that widgets stay in the 
position you last had them.  They don't get randomly shuffled around 
each time you bring up Dashboard.

When I'm looking at the weather, it is irrelevant that the stock prices 
are also displayed.  Since they come up in the same place each time, 
there is no distraction, and this clutter you speak of is of no 
consequence whatsoever.

-- 
--Tim Smith

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:33:59 -0600, G.T. wrote
(in article <11mkigbgers0ic6@corp.supernews.com>):

> This is comical.  So with Dashboard now you have 20 apps cluttering your
> screen when you only want to use one?  I never want to do 20 different
> things at the same time, I don't even want to do 10 different things at the
> same time.

So don't use it.

"Verne Arase" <VerneA@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BF92FF090004A142F0335550@news.giganews.com...
> On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 11:33:59 -0600, G.T. wrote
> (in article <11mkigbgers0ic6@corp.supernews.com>):
>
> > This is comical.  So with Dashboard now you have 20 apps cluttering your
> > screen when you only want to use one?  I never want to do 20 different
> > things at the same time, I don't even want to do 10 different things at
the
> > same time.
>
> So don't use it.
>

I don't.

Greg

Anybody <anybody@anywhere-anytime.com> writes:
> 
> Nope. Dashboard is useless since you can't have the Widget running AND
> continue using another application. Makes you wonder why people even
> bother with email checker Widgets, the only way to know if there's new
> mail is to bring the silly Dashboard "screen" to the front again.  :-\

It depends on what you're doing.

I agree, for e-mail checking it's silly.  You want an indicator that
will appear wherever you're working.  Like a bouncing Dock icon.

On the other hand, there are plenty of things where you don't want them
getting in the way of your work.  Like the Weather widget, or the world
clocks, or the stickies.  For stuff like this, it's very convenient to
press one key, get the information you need, and then put it all away
again.

> Desk Accessories were MUCH MUCH more useful.

Depends on what you're doing.  If I was to use DA's (or applications)
for the things I currently use widgets for, I'd have to quit or hide
the programs whenever I'm done looking at them, or they'd get in the
way of the rest of my work.  And then re-launch them when I want to use
them again.

I can easily see this mode of operation getting really annoying for
some operations.

-- David

"Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> writes:
>  
> except that you *ARE* running separate applications for each of these
> functions - it is just that they are hidden/accessed though a single
> interface.

This interface is the whole point of Dashboard.

If UI means nothing to you, then you might as well say that Mac OS X is
no different from the DEC ULTRIX system I used in college over vt-100
terminals.

UI and presentation are extremely important to most of us.

-- David

In article <m2slu6bu0o.fsf@qqqq.invalid>, shamino@techie.com (David C.)
wrote:

> "Fetch, Rover, Fetch" <Fetch-Rover-Fetch@K9University.edu> writes:
> >  
> > except that you *ARE* running separate applications for each of these
> > functions - it is just that they are hidden/accessed though a single
> > interface.
> 
> This interface is the whole point of Dashboard.
> 
> If UI means nothing to you, then you might as well say that Mac OS X is
> no different from the DEC ULTRIX system I used in college over vt-100
> terminals.
> 
> UI and presentation are extremely important to most of us.

The point is that Dashboard is basically a totally separate UI that
overlays the normal workspace.

For some people or some situations / application that can be handy, but
for others it ranges from annoying to totally pointless.