f



Newsreaders #2

So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
 Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?

I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?

-- Michelle

-- 
I'm a year older than I was exactly one year ago.

0
michelle14 (19004)
10/27/2013 4:41:25 PM
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In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle Steiner
<email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle

If you liked MTNW, you'll like Thoth because they are very similar. 
The setup is a bit more convoluted but otherwise it is very much what
you are used to.  I just paid for mine.

I did buy Unison, and it is very nice in many respects.  I really can't
fault it for text groups, which is all I do.  But in the end I'll
probably end up using Thoth.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/27/2013 4:56:47 PM
Michelle Steiner:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?

> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?

Thoth is a solid, reliable, plain-vanilla newsreader. It has served me
since, well, since I-don't-know-when. Version 1.9.0.22, which is
somewhere near the latest version, is going strong under Mavericks.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
0
star (3126)
10/27/2013 5:01:06 PM
In article <271020131301063819%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
wrote:

> Michelle Steiner:
> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
> >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> Thoth is a solid, reliable, plain-vanilla newsreader. It has served me
> since, well, since I-don't-know-when. Version 1.9.0.22, which is
> somewhere near the latest version, is going strong under Mavericks.

That is the current version, or at least the current released, non-beta
version.

Got it yesterday in 'trial' version, went through the god-awful
configuration and in the end it works wonderfully, just as it always
did.

So since I like to encourage software developers, I bought it just as I
did with Unison the day before yesterday.

Thoth is very MTNW like in many respects.

Unison is a slicker interface, more in line with other OSX apps.

Both are excellent!

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/27/2013 5:36:30 PM
On 2013-10-27 17:36:30 +0000, Lloyd said:

> In article <271020131301063819%star@sky.net>, Davoud <star@sky.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> Michelle Steiner:
>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>>> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>> 
>>> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
>>> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
>>> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>> 
>> Thoth is a solid, reliable, plain-vanilla newsreader. It has served me
>> since, well, since I-don't-know-when. Version 1.9.0.22, which is
>> somewhere near the latest version, is going strong under Mavericks.
> 
> That is the current version, or at least the current released, non-beta
> version.
> 
> Got it yesterday in 'trial' version, went through the god-awful
> configuration and in the end it works wonderfully, just as it always
> did.
> 
> So since I like to encourage software developers, I bought it just as I
> did with Unison the day before yesterday.
> 
> Thoth is very MTNW like in many respects.
> 
> Unison is a slicker interface, more in line with other OSX apps.
> 
> Both are excellent!

Let me go on a bit.

Thoth, just like MTNW, breaks long links on other readers.  Not a 
problem if you are only in Mac newsgroups, but for others it is an 
issue.  Even Unison doesn't do that, but Unison definitely will see the 
link as broken.

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/27/2013 7:41:35 PM
On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?

I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
client.

I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
IMO.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
10/27/2013 7:57:23 PM
Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

[...]

> Thoth, just like MTNW, breaks long links on other readers.  Not a 
> problem if you are only in Mac newsgroups, but for others it is an 
> issue.  Even Unison doesn't do that, but Unison definitely will see the
> link as broken.

MacSOUP no longer breaks URLs in the latest version 2.8.4* and 
works well on Maverick. It is still actively maintained by the 
author, Stefan Haller.


* the recent update 

-- 
^�^.      Sn!pe      <snipe@notforspam.fsnet.co.uk> 
 
My pet rock Gordon just is. 
 
0
snipe (277)
10/27/2013 7:58:35 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >
> > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> client.
> 
> I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> IMO.

slrn is very much favoured by the regulars in news.software.readers 
and I'm told that it works well on the Mac OSX command line. 
There is a great deal of detailed slrn help to be found in nsr.

-- 
^�^.      Sn!pe      <snipe@notforspam.fsnet.co.uk> 
 
My pet rock Gordon just is. 
 
0
snipe (277)
10/27/2013 8:03:02 PM
On 2013-10-27 19:58:35 +0000, Sn!pe said:

> Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Thoth, just like MTNW, breaks long links on other readers.  Not a
>> problem if you are only in Mac newsgroups, but for others it is an
>> issue.  Even Unison doesn't do that, but Unison definitely will see the
>> link as broken.
> 
> MacSOUP no longer breaks URLs in the latest version 2.8.4* and
> works well on Maverick. It is still actively maintained by the
> author, Stefan Haller.
> 
> 
> * the recent update

Good to know.

How does it handle the broken links from Thoth/MTNW?  Unison seems to 
handle them though it does show them as broken.

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/27/2013 8:05:02 PM
Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27 19:58:35 +0000, Sn!pe said:
 
[...]

> > MacSOUP no longer breaks URLs in the latest version 2.8.4* and
> > works well on Maverick. It is still actively maintained by the
> > author, Stefan Haller.
> > 
> 
> Good to know.
> 
> How does it handle the broken links from Thoth/MTNW?  Unison seems to
> handle them though it does show them as broken.
>

I can't honestly say that I've noticed, but then I'm quite used to
reassembling broken links simply by highlighting the whole link. 
MacSOUP strips out the 'newline' characters nicely. Of course, 
this doesn't work if there are '>' quote marks in the URL lines. 

-- 
^�^.      Sn!pe      <snipe@notforspam.fsnet.co.uk> 
 
My pet rock Gordon just is. 
 
0
snipe (277)
10/27/2013 8:42:30 PM
On 2013-10-27 21:50:08 +0000, Jolly Roger said:

> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>> On 2013-10-27 19:57:23 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
>> 
>>> Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
>> 
>> Thoth's predecessor, a NewsWatcher varient, was based on NewsWatcher,
>> of course, and therefore was free.  Thoth's developer says that he
>> didn't use any NW code in Thoth.  Some (many?) dispute that.
> 
> Yep. That's it. No thanks.
> 
>>> I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
>>> user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
>>> power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
>>> IMO.
>> 
>> I'll stick with a GUI reader; if I wanted CLI, I'd have gone with Linux
>> or something.
> 
> To each, his own, of course.  : )
> 
> Ultimately, I'd write a new Mac Usenet client and try to re-think the
> whole idea of a Usenet client while I'm at it. Until that day, I'm
> looking for whatever gets me by while meeting as many of my needs as
> possible. So far, slrn exceeds mtnw in terms of raw functionality, at
> the expense of ease of use. But since I'm already very familiar with
> command-line tools, that aspect doesn't bother me a whole lot. I usually
> have Terminal running anyway. Not a huge change for me.

Glad to hear you like it.  I've been following the discussion about it 
a bit as interesting.  Personally I can't remember the last time I ran 
a terminal session, and don't look forward to ever doing it again!

It is great that we have these choices!  I encouraged both Unison's and 
Thoth's developers by buying a copy of each.  Not a big deal and I 
spend more than that on smokes in a month!  :)

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/27/2013 9:57:29 PM
Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle

Well I'd avoid Hogwasher to begin with - it's essentially unsupported,
unfixed for years. It was buggy back in the 90's, and is even more buggy
today. Yet the dev still charges for it.

I've never been a fan of Thoth, but that's more about the dev's temper
tantrums and off and on again support. Still, of the three you mention
I'd pick Thoth.

But I still prefer MacSOUP, and would chose tin over all of them on OS X
10.9, if MacSOUP didn't exist. Or maybe one of the GUI X-Windows
clients.

MT-NW was only ever my backup to MacSOUP, for those rare occasions I
need to browse groups I'm not subbed to in MacSOUP, or binaries which
MacSOUP doesn't handle well (you can save the articles as text files and
drag onto a decoder app, but it's painful). Otherwise MacSOUP all the
way! :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/27/2013 9:58:58 PM
Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> > > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> > >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > >
> > > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> > > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
> > > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> > 
> > I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> > Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> > There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> > client.
> > 
> > I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> > user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> > power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> > IMO.
> 
> slrn is very much favoured by the regulars in news.software.readers 
> and I'm told that it works well on the Mac OSX command line. 
> There is a great deal of detailed slrn help to be found in nsr.

Is there any consensus there as to a decent GUI X-Windows client? My dim
memories aside (I tried a couple during OS X 10.3's era, using Fink to
get them), I'd be interested to know what's the pick of the bunch there.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/27/2013 9:58:59 PM
[crossposted: csma; nsr]

[context: MTNW newsreader no longer works on the latest Mac OSX]

Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> > > > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> > > >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > > >
> > > > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> > > > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
> > > > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> > > 
> > > I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> > > Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> > > There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> > > client.
> > > 
> > > I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> > > user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> > > power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> > > IMO.
> > 
> > slrn is very much favoured by the regulars in news.software.readers
> > and I'm told that it works well on the Mac OSX command line. 
> > There is a great deal of detailed slrn help to be found in nsr.
> 
> Is there any consensus there as to a decent GUI X-Windows client? My dim
> memories aside (I tried a couple during OS X 10.3's era, using Fink to
> get them), I'd be interested to know what's the pick of the bunch there.

Lets ask them -- this article is crossposted to there.
(Followup-To: not set)

-- 
^�^.      Sn!pe      <snipe@notforspam.fsnet.co.uk> 
 
My pet rock Gordon just is. 
 
0
snipe (277)
10/27/2013 10:11:16 PM
On 2013-10-27 21:39:33 +0000, Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> said:

> In article <l4k0uc$r6j$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle Steiner
> <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-10-27 21:10:33 +0000, Lloyd said:
>> 
>>> Bill, if you do a Google on Unison and Thoth, you can get trial
>>> versions of both with no problem.  I think both give 30 day trials with
>>> some limitations, but the limitations are not so severe that you
>>> couldn't get a feel for which you like.
>> 
>> Unison's trial version is for one week, but as far as I can tell, there
>> are no other limitations on it.  Thoth's is 30 days with a few
>> limitations.
>> 
>> -- Michelle
> 
> thanks for the correction, I couldn't remember.
> 
> I bought both!  :)

I have been a Unison user for a few years now, with MT-NW for occasional use.
Now with the move to Mavericks from OSX 10.6.8 I am left with Unison, 
but it works for me.
Personally I prefer the older Unison 1.8.1 over the latest release and 
I use that almost exclusively. That is available from Panic's support 
page, if you want to make the comparison.
< http://www.panic.com/unison/support.html >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/27/2013 10:30:41 PM
In article <l4jrle$nm4$1@dont-email.me>,
 Lloyd  E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27 19:58:35 +0000, Sn!pe said:
> 
> > Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> >> Thoth, just like MTNW, breaks long links on other readers.  Not a
> >> problem if you are only in Mac newsgroups, but for others it is an
> >> issue.  Even Unison doesn't do that, but Unison definitely will see the
> >> link as broken.
> > 
> > MacSOUP no longer breaks URLs in the latest version 2.8.4* and
> > works well on Maverick. It is still actively maintained by the
> > author, Stefan Haller.
> > 
> > 
> > * the recent update
> 
> Good to know.
> 
> How does it handle the broken links from Thoth/MTNW?  Unison seems to 
> handle them though it does show them as broken.

Broken links are not the biggest problem for most of us surely, or at 
least, they are easy to fix with a bit of cut and paste and 
backspacing and maybe a snip here and there. It is interesting to hear 
what programs folk are using to replace MTNW.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme (2141)
10/27/2013 11:23:10 PM
Thoth is almost exactly like MT. Give it a try.
m-m

In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle Steiner
<email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle
0
nospam.m-m (391)
10/27/2013 11:24:43 PM
On 2013-10-27, Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> [crossposted: csma; nsr]
>
> [context: MTNW newsreader no longer works on the latest Mac OSX]
>
> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>
>> Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > > On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>> > > > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> > > >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
>> > > > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
>> > > > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>> > > 
>> > > I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
>> > > Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
>> > > There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
>> > > client.
>> > > 
>> > > I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
>> > > user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
>> > > power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
>> > > IMO.
>> > 
>> > slrn is very much favoured by the regulars in news.software.readers
>> > and I'm told that it works well on the Mac OSX command line. 
>> > There is a great deal of detailed slrn help to be found in nsr.
>> 
>> Is there any consensus there as to a decent GUI X-Windows client? My dim
>> memories aside (I tried a couple during OS X 10.3's era, using Fink to
>> get them), I'd be interested to know what's the pick of the bunch there.
>
> Lets ask them -- this article is crossposted to there.
> (Followup-To: not set)

Pan
Knode
Claws-Mail
Sylpheed
Thunderbird

-- 
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
--  Whiskers 
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
0
catwheezel (67)
10/27/2013 11:31:09 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> > On 2013-10-27 21:50:08 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
> >
> >> Ultimately, I'd write a new Mac Usenet client and try to re-think the
> >> whole idea of a Usenet client while I'm at it.
> >
> > Go for it; put everything else on hold.
> 
> One of these days, maybe...

*prod* *annoy* *bother* *makes your usb cables and hubs a giant loop
that never actually connects to your Mac*
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/27/2013 11:41:52 PM
In article <271020131924437074%nospam.m-m@ny.more>, M-M
<nospam.m-m@ny.more> wrote:

> Thoth is almost exactly like MT. Give it a try.
> m-m

Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
that? I think I found everything else I need, but only time will tell.

Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
say, Pages) and issue a PDF?

But I think I prefer it over Unison, which tries to be too clever with
its interface.
0
timstreater2 (1190)
10/27/2013 11:42:54 PM
In article <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
> download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
> that? I think I found everything else I need, but only time will tell.

Like MT-NW, cmd-Y will fetch new articles from your group list. 

m-m
0
nospam.m-m (391)
10/28/2013 12:09:47 AM
In article <271020132009474840%nospam.m-m@ny.more>, M-M
<nospam.m-m@ny.more> wrote:

> In article <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
> > Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
> > download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
> > that? I think I found everything else I need, but only time will tell.
> 
> Like MT-NW, cmd-Y will fetch new articles from your group list. 

Yes, I know that, thanks, but I want Thoth to download new posts every
x mins. I keep a groups window open in MT-MW and glance at it from time
to time to decide whether it's worth having a look at new posts. I want
to be able to do the same in Thoth.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
timstreater2 (1190)
10/28/2013 12:16:52 AM
On 2013-10-28 00:09:47 +0000, M-M said:

> In article <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
>> Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
>> download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
>> that? I think I found everything else I need, but only time will tell.
> 
> Like MT-NW, cmd-Y will fetch new articles from your group list.
> 
> m-m

I know I saw that when I was setting things up, but now I cannot find 
the auto download of postings.  I know it has to be there.

One thing I've not found in Thoth is how to make the cursor 
automagically go to the end of a posting when I reply.  Anyone??
-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 12:16:53 AM
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 23:31:09 +0000
Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > [crossposted: csma; nsr]
> >
> > [context: MTNW newsreader no longer works on the latest Mac OSX]
> >
> > Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> >
> >> Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

> >> > slrn is very much favoured by the regulars in
> >> > news.software.readers and I'm told that it works well on the Mac
> >> > OSX command line. There is a great deal of detailed slrn help to
> >> > be found in nsr.
> >> 
> >> Is there any consensus there as to a decent GUI X-Windows client?
> >> My dim memories aside (I tried a couple during OS X 10.3's era,
> >> using Fink to get them), I'd be interested to know what's the pick
> >> of the bunch there.
> >
> > Lets ask them -- this article is crossposted to there.
> > (Followup-To: not set)
> 
> Pan
> Knode
> Claws-Mail
> Sylpheed
> Thunderbird

If there was ever any consensus about those being decent clients, I
missed it.  ;)  Does anybody in n.s.r actually use Knode?

[followup-to set to n.s.r]
0
boxcars (15)
10/28/2013 12:46:06 AM
In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net> 
  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?

Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
he could steal from.


-- 
According to the philosopher Ly Tin Weedle, chaos is found in greatest
abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order,
because it is better organized.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 1:26:02 AM
On 10/27/13, 11:41 AM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?

I use Thunderbird's newsreading capabilities.  I used to use MTNW on my 
PowerBook and don't remember now why I couldn't continue to use it when 
got the MacBook Pro -- oh, I know.  I couldn't keep using Eudora for 
mail so just went with what came with Thunderbird.  And I'm using 
Thunderbird because I had a whole bunch of Windows mail from a variety 
of mail systems that I wanted to keep.  I could convert all of them to 
Thunderbird on the PC, as well as the Eudora mail.  I'm not sure there 
was any easy way (when I needed to do it) to convert the various Windows 
mail formats to Eudora.

Anyway, I'm OK with Thunderbird for newsgroups although I haven't found 
any way to keep track of a message now and then that I wanted to go back 
to, although I haven't played with *all* the ways of marking or tagging 
messages.

Ted
0
TMPLee (191)
10/28/2013 1:30:09 AM
On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
>   Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
> 
> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
> he could steal from.

Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 2:04:45 AM
On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle

I'm one that is quite pleased with Unison, having used it for my 
newsreader for a number of years now. Like many things it does take a 
bit of getting used to. But I'm quite happy with it!

-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

0
10/28/2013 2:07:09 AM
In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me> 
  Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:

>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
>>   Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
>> 
>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
>> he could steal from.

> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.

I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?

He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
issue.

-- 
"Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to
those of us who do." - Isaac Asimov
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 2:11:25 AM
On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?

If you think "learning to live with it" is a possibility with Unison it 
better be assured with Thoth. I used Thoth for many years, and keep it 
up to date as I still use if for some things.  But I acclimated to 
Unison and it's so easy (despite some limitations) that I am now quite 
comfortable.

0
xxx613 (1334)
10/28/2013 2:16:59 AM
On 2013-10-28 01:35:27 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <billvan-7970D0.14044127102013@news.shawcable.net>
>   bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
> 
> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries? I don't do it much, but I've
> used it to download fractals for wallpapers on many occasions.
> 
>> From my reading the last few days in this and other mac groups, Unison
>> sounds like my best choice so far, despite some misgivings.
> 
> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.

I don't get that. Posting is easy as pie in Unison, and let's me adopt 
different user names for different groups and so forth.  It's really 
quite organized.

Searching for old messages can be a nuisance and I can still crash it 
from time to time--but I know when and how.

0
xxx613 (1334)
10/28/2013 2:18:35 AM
On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam said:

> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
>> 
>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
> 
> the authors:
> 
> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
> 
>   slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
>   processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
>   downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
> ...
>   slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
>   that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
>   have been contributed.
> 
> its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
> in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
> 
>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> 
> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> people who don't understand usenet at all.

Unison works just fine in text.  Not a problem at all.
-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 2:59:28 AM
On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:

> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
> 
>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
>>> 
>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
>>> he could steal from.
> 
>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
> 
> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?

The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do 
we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to 
take all the shots again?

I don't think so.

> 
> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
> issue.

True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
about the personality or lack of, of the developer?

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 3:01:25 AM
On 2013-10-27, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>>
>> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
>> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
>> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>
> I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> client.
>
> I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> IMO.

Thanks for mentioning that I can use Vim as my slrn editor.  As a hardcore
Vim user (use it all day long at work), your post got me to install slrn,
and kludge together a config file (Google was my Friend :-) ).

However, I think slrn really only suited for someone that enjoys the
command line, as there is no mouse/trackpad action.  Everything id done via
the keyboard, and text editors.  I guess if you really wanted, you could
get things configured so that TextWrangler was invoked as your text editor
via the TextWrangler command line tools, but you still have to wade through
a lot of command line style configuration to get there.

But since I'm loosing MT-Newswatcher, I think I can live with an slrn/Vim
combo.
0
10/28/2013 3:05:42 AM
In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
  Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:

>> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
>>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
>> 
>>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
>>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
>>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
>>>> 
>>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
>>>> he could steal from.
>> 
>>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
>> 
>> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
>> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?

> The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do 
> we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to 
> take all the shots again?

> I don't think so.

>> 
>> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
>> issue.

> True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
> about the personality or lack of, of the developer?

When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
support one might get, it matters quite a lot.

When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.

The fact of the matter is that I've never used Thoth, but I am well
aware of it, and of Brian and of the constant stream of shit that has
issued from him over the last about 15 years. Because of this, when
uniformed people mention they are planning on using Thoth (or worse,
pay for it) I am quick to dissuade them as much as I possibly can.

-- 
a vital ingredient of success is not knowing that what you're attempting
can't be done. A person ignorant of the possibility of failure can be a
half-brick in the path of the bicycle of history.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 3:40:19 AM
On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
>> 
>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
> 
> the authors:
> 
> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
> 
>   slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
>   processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
>   downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
> ...
>   slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
>   that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
>   have been contributed.
> 
> its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
> in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
> 
>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> 
> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> people who don't understand usenet at all.

What is unreadable about this?
< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 4:16:24 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:
> 
> >> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
> >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
> >> 
> >>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
> >>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> >>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
> >>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
> >>>> he could steal from.
> >> 
> >>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
> >> 
> >> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
> >> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?
> 
> > The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do
> > we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to
> > take all the shots again?
> 
> > I don't think so.
> 
> >> 
> >> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
> >> issue.
> 
> > True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
> > about the personality or lack of, of the developer?
> 
> When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
> support one might get, it matters quite a lot.
> 
> When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
> deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that I've never used Thoth, but I am well
> aware of it, and of Brian and of the constant stream of shit that has
> issued from him over the last about 15 years. Because of this, when
> uniformed people mention they are planning on using Thoth (or worse,
> pay for it) I am quick to dissuade them as much as I possibly can.

Brian is a flake, that much is for sure. I don't like paying for
shareware that might suddenly end up unsupported because the dev has a
tantrum. Regardless Thoth isn't a bad client - in fact it's quite a good
one, and in the final analysis has easily been worth the price for
anyone who paid. It just comes from a bad developer who does himself no
favours.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 4:26:01 AM
On 2013-10-28 02:07:09 +0000, TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> said:

> On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:
> 
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>> 
>> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
>> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
>> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>> 
>> -- Michelle
> 
> I'm one that is quite pleased with Unison, having used it for my 
> newsreader for a number of years now. Like many things it does take a 
> bit of getting used to. But I'm quite happy with it!

I can second that.
I have also been using Unison for a few years and I have no complaints. 
I am able to set up workable rule/filters and I can post and respond in 
any of the newsgroups I choose to subscribe to.
Those who prefer to roll up their sleeves and work under the hood so to 
speak, might find it lacking, but it is a workable solution and not as 
terrible as some have made it out to be.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 4:29:10 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> people who don't understand usenet at all.

That they even freely admit. One wonders why Panic ever made Unison.
Still, it's not awful. Just subpar compared to what we're used to. Mac
usenet users have always had acess to the very best GUI usenet clients,
IMO. Sadly that was more true back in classic MacOS days than now...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 4:34:27 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> 
> > In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> > <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > 
> >>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
> >>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
> >>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
> >> 
> >> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
> > 
> > the authors:
> > 
> > <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
> > 
> >   slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
> >   processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
> >   downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
> > ...
> >   slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
> >   that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
> >   have been contributed.
> > 
> > its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
> > in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
> > 
> >> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> > 
> > the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> > people who don't understand usenet at all.
> 
> What is unreadable about this?
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >

No graphical thread tree for one thing. I find it annoying to do without
after years of MacSOUP. I'll make do without if I must, but in a GUI
client marketed as "The best Usenet Browser / Newsreader in the world"?
You've gotta be kidding me, heh.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 4:38:53 AM
On 10-27-2013, 12:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?

There will never be a consensus on that one.

I still like Thunderbird.  Tried every other free one I've heard of, and 
Thunderbird is the best FOR ME.


-- 
Wes Groleau

    There ain't no right wing,
    there ain't no left wing.
    There's only you and me and we just disagree.
                               (apologies to Jim Krueger)

0
news31 (6772)
10/28/2013 4:48:09 AM
On 2013-10-28 04:38:53 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
Genet) said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>> 
>>> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
>>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>>>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>>>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
>>>> 
>>>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
>>> 
>>> the authors:
>>> 
>>> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
>>> 
>>> slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
>>> processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
>>> downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
>>> ...
>>> slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
>>> that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
>>> have been contributed.
>>> 
>>> its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
>>> in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
>>> 
>>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
>>> 
>>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
>>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
>> 
>> What is unreadable about this?
>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> 
> No graphical thread tree for one thing. I find it annoying to do without
> after years of MacSOUP. I'll make do without if I must, but in a GUI
> client marketed as "The best Usenet Browser / Newsreader in the world"?
> You've gotta be kidding me, heh.

I have never had an issue following a thread in Unison.
< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_335.jpg .


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 4:49:08 AM
In article <2013102721162438695-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> > 
> > the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> > people who don't understand usenet at all.
> 
> What is unreadable about this?
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >

i never said it was unreadable.

i said it's horrible, and to expand on that, it has a poorly designed
interface that looks pretty. it's form over function. they basically
dumbed down usenet to make it palatable to the masses, hoping to make a
buck.

they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
server (if they offer it).
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/28/2013 4:49:32 AM
In article <1lbgopp.1tuheyw1x1m803N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> > the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> > people who don't understand usenet at all.
> 
> That they even freely admit. One wonders why Panic ever made Unison.
> Still, it's not awful. Just subpar compared to what we're used to. Mac
> usenet users have always had acess to the very best GUI usenet clients,
> IMO. Sadly that was more true back in classic MacOS days than now...

they tried to dumb it down for the masses.
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/28/2013 4:49:33 AM
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 03:05:42 +0000 (UTC), Bob Harris wrote:
>  However, I think slrn really only suited for someone that enjoys the
>  command line, as there is no mouse/trackpad action.  Everything id done via
>  the keyboard, and text editors.  

That depends. The terminal in MacOS seems somehow broken. On Linux
xterms I did use mouse actions quite often.

I'm still on 10.6 - but I guess that was never fixed?

- Martin


0
t-usenet (182)
10/28/2013 5:05:08 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 04:38:53 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
> Genet) said:
> 
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> >>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
> >>>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
> >>>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
> >>> 
> >>> the authors:
> >>> 
> >>> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
> >>> 
> >>> slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
> >>> processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
> >>> downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
> >>> ...
> >>> slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
> >>> that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
> >>> have been contributed.
> >>> 
> >>> its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
> >>> in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
> >>> 
> >>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> >>> 
> >>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> >>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
> >> 
> >> What is unreadable about this?
> >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> > 
> > No graphical thread tree for one thing. I find it annoying to do without
> > after years of MacSOUP. I'll make do without if I must, but in a GUI
> > client marketed as "The best Usenet Browser / Newsreader in the world"?
> > You've gotta be kidding me, heh.
> 
> I have never had an issue following a thread in Unison.
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_335.jpg .

That's useful, but I like having
<http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9030/6rb.png> as well. I instantly
know where I am in the thread, at a glance, and in far less space (I
never need actually look at the message list window while reading a
thread in MacSOUP, in order to know where I am in the thread).
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 5:59:28 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <2013102721162438695-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
> > >> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> > > 
> > > the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> > > people who don't understand usenet at all.
> > 
> > What is unreadable about this?
> > < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> 
> i never said it was unreadable.
> 
> i said it's horrible, and to expand on that, it has a poorly designed
> interface that looks pretty. it's form over function. they basically
> dumbed down usenet to make it palatable to the masses, hoping to make a
> buck.
> 
> they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
> out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
> server (if they offer it).

I thought they just re-sold someone else's like Forte does/did. It's
been a while since I checked either.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 6:01:15 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1lbgopp.1tuheyw1x1m803N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > > the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> > > people who don't understand usenet at all.
> > 
> > That they even freely admit. One wonders why Panic ever made Unison.
> > Still, it's not awful. Just subpar compared to what we're used to. Mac
> > usenet users have always had acess to the very best GUI usenet clients,
> > IMO. Sadly that was more true back in classic MacOS days than now...
> 
> they tried to dumb it down for the masses.

They didn't feel they had to do that for FTP. Though I'm a Fetch user,
despite trying the excellent Transmit several times over the years.
Mostly because I already own Fetch and have modest needs that Fetch
fulfills handily, so that's no slight on Transmit. Anyway, I wonder why
for Usenet they felt they had to make such fluff?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 6:04:33 AM
In article <1lbgsrh.ggqxzr3r9u0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> > they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
> > out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
> > server (if they offer it).
> 
> I thought they just re-sold someone else's like Forte does/did. It's
> been a while since I checked either.

that's what they do and that's what most usenet services do. panic
figured they could make a buck that way as well.
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/28/2013 6:59:20 AM
On 2013-10-28 05:59:28 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
Genet) said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-10-28 04:38:53 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn
>> Genet) said:
>> 
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>>>> 
>>>>> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
>>>>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>>>>>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>>>>>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
>>>>> 
>>>>> the authors:
>>>>> 
>>>>> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
>>>>> 
>>>>> slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
>>>>> processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
>>>>> downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.
>>>>> ...
>>>>> slrn does not have native support for yEnc: one reason for this is
>>>>> that I do not need this feature myself and so far, no patches for it
>>>>> have been contributed.
>>>>> 
>>>>> its binary support is incredibly primitive, and for anyone interested
>>>>> in binaries, slrn is not an option whatsoever.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
>>>>> 
>>>>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
>>>>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
>>>> 
>>>> What is unreadable about this?
>>>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
>>> 
>>> No graphical thread tree for one thing. I find it annoying to do without
>>> after years of MacSOUP. I'll make do without if I must, but in a GUI
>>> client marketed as "The best Usenet Browser / Newsreader in the world"?
>>> You've gotta be kidding me, heh.
>> 
>> I have never had an issue following a thread in Unison.
>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_335.jpg .
> 
> That's useful, but I like having
> <http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9030/6rb.png> as well. I instantly
> know where I am in the thread, at a glance, and in far less space (I
> never need actually look at the message list window while reading a
> thread in MacSOUP, in order to know where I am in the thread).

Nice, but in reality I don't believe that either of us actually needs a 
road map to navigate a thread.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 7:28:21 AM
On 2013-10-28 04:49:32 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> In article <2013102721162438695-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
>>> 
>>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
>>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
>> 
>> What is unreadable about this?
>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> 
> i never said it was unreadable.

You implied that it was.

> i said it's horrible, and to expand on that, it has a poorly designed
> interface that looks pretty. it's form over function. they basically
> dumbed down usenet to make it palatable to the masses, hoping to make a
> buck.

So? The Usenet should be your personal arcane forum?
Why shouldn't Usenet be palatable for the masses? or do you consider it 
some sort of elitist geek club, or your personal playground?

What horror does Unison and the thought of the unwashed masses invoke in you?

> they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
> out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
> server (if they offer it).

So? With more ISPs & providers dropping Usenet, it is dying. It makes a 
good business plan to introduce more users to NewsGroups and make it 
simpler for them to access when most believe them to be dead. Quite a 
few older users left UseNet when their, ISPs dropped support, Panic 
just provides another means of access.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 7:50:57 AM
In article <2013102800505745408-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> >>> 
> >>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> >>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
> >> 
> >> What is unreadable about this?
> >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> > 
> > i never said it was unreadable.
> 
> You implied that it was.

all i said was it's horrible, and it is. my reference to reading was
that you need not post to experience it's suckiness. just reading posts
is enough.

> > i said it's horrible, and to expand on that, it has a poorly designed
> > interface that looks pretty. it's form over function. they basically
> > dumbed down usenet to make it palatable to the masses, hoping to make a
> > buck.
> 
> So? The Usenet should be your personal arcane forum?
> Why shouldn't Usenet be palatable for the masses? or do you consider it 
> some sort of elitist geek club, or your personal playground?
> 
> What horror does Unison and the thought of the unwashed masses invoke in you?

the problem is that it's designed for people who never heard of usenet
while entirely ignoring seasoned usenet users.

people who have been using usenet for years want features it does not
have, or are implemented in an oddball way. 

> > they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
> > out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
> > server (if they offer it).
> 
> So? With more ISPs & providers dropping Usenet, it is dying. It makes a 
> good business plan to introduce more users to NewsGroups and make it 
> simpler for them to access when most believe them to be dead. Quite a 
> few older users left UseNet when their, ISPs dropped support, Panic 
> just provides another means of access.

someone looking for a usenet app probably already has a usenet feed.

they could have listed existing usenet providers rather than trying to
be one. let those whose full time business is being a usenet provider
than try to do it as an afterthought.
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/28/2013 8:16:00 AM
In article (Dans l'article) <l4jq9f$el1$1@dont-email.me>, Lloyd  E
Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote (�crivait)�:

> Thoth, just like MTNW, breaks long links on other readers.

1)
When composing a new message, you can do:

a) Leave the default Wrap Message setting in Thoth to on/enabled, as
that's what you usually want.
b) When you are creating a message with a long URL that you want to be
sent unwrapped, first do all your editing, etc. as normal with Wrap
Message on. Then you can easily read what you're writing.
c) Once you're ready to send, set Wrap Message OFF for that message
(click in the Edit Settings icon in the toolbar and uncheck "wrap
Message."
d) Now manually select each paragraph in the email that does not
contain the URL, that you want to be wrapped, and use Edit->Wrap to
wrap them.

2)
When replying, even with wrapping enabled, Thoth isn't supposed to wrap
quoted text. So if the URL you type is quoted in the usual way, with
the leading ">' or "> " quoted message string:

-- 
Jean-Pierre Kuypers
0
J
10/28/2013 8:37:22 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 05:59:28 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
> Genet) said:
> 
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2013-10-28 04:38:53 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn
> >> Genet) said:
> >> 
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
[snip]
> >>>> What is unreadable about this?
> >>>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> >>> 
> >>> No graphical thread tree for one thing. I find it annoying to do without
> >>> after years of MacSOUP. I'll make do without if I must, but in a GUI
> >>> client marketed as "The best Usenet Browser / Newsreader in the world"?
> >>> You've gotta be kidding me, heh.
> >> 
> >> I have never had an issue following a thread in Unison.
> >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_335.jpg .
> > 
> > That's useful, but I like having
> > <http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9030/6rb.png> as well. I instantly
> > know where I am in the thread, at a glance, and in far less space (I
> > never need actually look at the message list window while reading a
> > thread in MacSOUP, in order to know where I am in the thread).
> 
> Nice, but in reality I don't believe that either of us actually needs a
> road map to navigate a thread.

Really? After a few replies I'm hopelessly lost trying to follow a
thread via quoting, and that's before people rightly begin snipping it.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 9:03:36 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 04:49:32 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> 
> > In article <2013102721162438695-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>>> The less you want to post, the better Unison is.
> >>> 
> >>> the less you want to read too. unison is horrible. it's written by
> >>> people who don't understand usenet at all.
> >> 
> >> What is unreadable about this?
> >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >
> > 
> > i never said it was unreadable.
> 
> You implied that it was.
> 
> > i said it's horrible, and to expand on that, it has a poorly designed
> > interface that looks pretty. it's form over function. they basically
> > dumbed down usenet to make it palatable to the masses, hoping to make a
> > buck.
> 
> So? The Usenet should be your personal arcane forum?
> Why shouldn't Usenet be palatable for the masses? or do you consider it
> some sort of elitist geek club, or your personal playground?
> 
> What horror does Unison and the thought of the unwashed masses invoke in you?
> 
> > they even set up their own news server just in case nobody can figure
> > out how to find a commercial usenet provider or access their isp's
> > server (if they offer it).
> 
> So? With more ISPs & providers dropping Usenet, it is dying. It makes a
> good business plan to introduce more users to NewsGroups and make it 
> simpler for them to access when most believe them to be dead. Quite a
> few older users left UseNet when their, ISPs dropped support, Panic 
> just provides another means of access.

There's a difference between making an intuitive and easy to use UI, and
dumbing everything down. As an MMORPG player for over a decade, believe
me - I know :-D

Panic could quite easily add powerful options and tools without
compromising the UI for more simplistic users. Hell, MacSOUP has a very
simple uncluttered UI, but still has powerful features like the
graphical thread tree, multiple views (read, unread, all, tagged, etc),
tagging, regular expression filtering, etc.

When did having an easy to use UI mean that the cute and colourful
buttons in a window's tool bar have to be all there is to an app? Put
the rest in menus with KB shortcuts, and in the preferences. Users can
then ignore them till they're ready for more. Hell, the number of users
I know who never even bother to investigate the contents of an app's
menus, let alone preferences... Well, it's not like it'll frighten more
people if there's a bunch more stuff in those two places - they'll
likely never notice, nor care. Today's users have already been trained
that all they need is in the toolbar. Let them have that. We'll take the
powerful features put elsewhere for ourselves ;-)

That was said slightly tongue in cheek if you couldn't tell, but there's
still a valid point to be found somewhere in my rambling...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 9:03:37 AM
In message <slrnl6rs46.14l.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
  Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 03:05:42 +0000 (UTC), Bob Harris wrote:
>>  However, I think slrn really only suited for someone that enjoys the
>>  command line, as there is no mouse/trackpad action.  Everything id done via
>>  the keyboard, and text editors.  

> That depends. The terminal in MacOS seems somehow broken. On Linux
> xterms I did use mouse actions quite often.

What sort of mouse actions?

The Terminal in OS X is very good (and I've use many over the years).

> I'm still on 10.6 - but I guess that was never fixed?

No idea, since you posted a vague accusation instead of any specific
issue.

-- 
The person on the other side was a young woman. Very obviously a young
woman. There was no possible way that she could have been mistaken for a
young man in any language, especially Braille.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 12:32:16 PM
In message <2013102721162438695-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 02:10:26 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

>> In article <slrnl6rfqv.p2q.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> 
>>>> So slrn and the like are out for me. I post strictly to text groups but
>>>> I download desktop pictures/wallpaper from one or two photography
>>>> groups. So I'll need something that can handle binaries.
>>> 
>>> Who told you slrn can't handle binaries?
>> 
>> the authors:
>> 
>> <http://slrn.sourceforge.net/docs/slrn-FAQ-3.html#ss3.3>
>> 
>>   slrn is primarily designed as a newsreader (i.e. for reading and
>>   processing text messages); it is not a dedicated agent for
>>   downloading and decoding binary postings from Usenet.

Nothing there says slrn cannot handle binaries. Yes, it is not
designed to be a "dedicated agent for downloading and decoding binary
postings" but no one said it was.

> What is unreadable about this?
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_334.jpg >

Thanks, I got to see my weasel-boy being an incorrect pedantic asshat
again. Joy.

-- 
Knowledge equals power... --...  Power equals energy...  People were
stupid, sometimes. They thought the Library was a dangerous place
because of all the magical books, which was true enough, but what made
it really one of the most dangerous places there could ever be was the
simple fact that it was a library. Energy equals matter... --...  Matter
equals mass.  And mass distorts space. It distorts it into polyfractal
L-Space. --Guards! Guards!
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 12:36:42 PM
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:32:16 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>  In message <slrnl6rs46.14l.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
>    Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 03:05:42 +0000 (UTC), Bob Harris wrote:
> >>  However, I think slrn really only suited for someone that enjoys the
> >>  command line, as there is no mouse/trackpad action.  Everything id done via
> >>  the keyboard, and text editors.  
> 
> > That depends. The terminal in MacOS seems somehow broken. On Linux
> > xterms I did use mouse actions quite often.
> 
>  What sort of mouse actions?

I installed a plugin which does support cursor placement within vim,
scrolling, selection etc. But this does work form vim only, not for
slrn.

>  The Terminal in OS X is very good (and I've use many over the years).
> 
> > I'm still on 10.6 - but I guess that was never fixed?
> 
>  No idea, since you posted a vague accusation instead of any specific
>  issue.

within the xterm I could use the mouse for placement, copy,paste,
selection, visual block marking etc. Most of this now is possible via 
http://www.culater.net/dl/files/SIMBL-0.9.9.zip and
https://bitheap.org/mouseterm/MouseTerm-1.0b1.dmg

Within slrn I could not only select groups and articles, but scroll and
select menu items from the top menu. I don't remember what else could be
done with mouse support in slrn.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/28/2013 12:48:38 PM
In article <271020132009474840%nospam.m-m@ny.more>, M-M
<nospam.m-m@ny.more> wrote:

> In article <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
> > Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
> > download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
> > that? I think I found everything else I need, but only time will tell.
> 
> Like MT-NW, cmd-Y will fetch new articles from your group list. 
> 
> m-m

I asked Brian about that very thing.  He said timed gathering of new
posts has never been in Thoth though MTNW did offer it.  From his
answer, it doesn't appear that it ever will.

Also asked him about making Thoth position the cursor on replies to the
end of the original post, again it isn't there and won't be.  His
position is that posts should be trimmed and responded to inline with
the various comments in the original posting.  Personally I don't agree
with that as default, but that's the way it is.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 1:11:32 PM
In article <slrnl6rn53.su3.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:
> 
> >> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
> >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
> >> 
> >>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
> >>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> >>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
> >>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
> >>>> he could steal from.
> >> 
> >>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
> >> 
> >> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
> >> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?
> 
> > The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do 
> > we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to 
> > take all the shots again?
> 
> > I don't think so.
> 
> >> 
> >> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
> >> issue.
> 
> > True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
> > about the personality or lack of, of the developer?
> 
> When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
> support one might get, it matters quite a lot.
> 
But going way back, I never had an issue with Brian's handling of
support.  I got Thoth when I got the original OSX I think, or
thereabouts anyway.  When I asked questions about it, I always got
quick responses.

And just this morning I had a couple questions and got a response
within minutes.

I'd say his support is fine.

> When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
> deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.
>
Yeah, I remember that.  Didn't like it then, but sure did like when he
finally did redo it.

> The fact of the matter is that I've never used Thoth, but I am well
> aware of it, and of Brian and of the constant stream of shit that has
> issued from him over the last about 15 years. Because of this, when
> uniformed people mention they are planning on using Thoth (or worse,
> pay for it) I am quick to dissuade them as much as I possibly can.

Since you've never used it, nor asked him for support, you are basing
your opinion on things read on the internet concerning it.  And of
course we all know 'if you read it on the internet, it is true'.   :)

The relevant fact is that Brian for all his faults and foibles, has
produced a superb usenet client for OSX.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 1:16:56 PM
In article <1lbgo7j.5ek8cfhnma19N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> > In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
> >   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > > On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:
> > 
> > >> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
> > >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > >>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
> > >> 
> > >>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
> > >>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > >>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly
> > >>>>> (in,
> > >>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
> > >>>> 
> > >>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
> > >>>> he could steal from.
> > >> 
> > >>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
> > >> 
> > >> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
> > >> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?
> > 
> > > The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do
> > > we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to
> > > take all the shots again?
> > 
> > > I don't think so.
> > 
> > >> 
> > >> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
> > >> issue.
> > 
> > > True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
> > > about the personality or lack of, of the developer?
> > 
> > When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
> > support one might get, it matters quite a lot.
> > 
> > When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
> > deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.
> > 
> > The fact of the matter is that I've never used Thoth, but I am well
> > aware of it, and of Brian and of the constant stream of shit that has
> > issued from him over the last about 15 years. Because of this, when
> > uniformed people mention they are planning on using Thoth (or worse,
> > pay for it) I am quick to dissuade them as much as I possibly can.
> 
> Brian is a flake, that much is for sure. I don't like paying for
> shareware that might suddenly end up unsupported because the dev has a
> tantrum. Regardless Thoth isn't a bad client - in fact it's quite a good
> one, and in the final analysis has easily been worth the price for
> anyone who paid. It just comes from a bad developer who does himself no
> favours.

And I would fully agree with that assessment!  It is a great usenet
client produced by a guy that has managed to piss off a lot of people
along the way!

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 1:17:58 PM
In article (Dans l'article) <281020130816560304%lloydp21@live.com>,
Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote (�crivait)�:

> But going way back, I never had an issue with Brian's handling of
> support.  I got Thoth when I got the original OSX I think, or
> thereabouts anyway.  When I asked questions about it, I always got
> quick responses.

Me 2!

-- 
Jean-Pierre Kuypers
0
J
10/28/2013 1:20:07 PM
In article <2013102719165954344-xxx@yyyzzz>, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:
> 
> > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't
> > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> If you think "learning to live with it" is a possibility with Unison it 
> better be assured with Thoth. I used Thoth for many years, and keep it 
> up to date as I still use if for some things.  But I acclimated to 
> Unison and it's so easy (despite some limitations) that I am now quite 
> comfortable.
> 
Unison is quite simple to use and easy to learn.  It has its quirks for
sure, but it is quite good.

Thoth is simpler to use for those coming from MTNW because of the
similarities.  It is quite powerful and configurable.

I'm switching back and forth with Thoth and Unison as I try to figure
out which will be the best for my use.  At this point, both are equal
for what I do.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 1:21:01 PM
In message <281020130816560304%lloydp21@live.com> 
  Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnl6rn53.su3.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
>>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> > On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:
>> 
>> >> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
>> >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> >>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
>> >> 
>> >>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
>> >>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> >>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly (in,
>> >>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
>> >>>> he could steal from.
>> >> 
>> >>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
>> >> 
>> >> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
>> >> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?
>> 
>> > The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do 
>> > we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to 
>> > take all the shots again?
>> 
>> > I don't think so.
>> 
>> >> 
>> >> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
>> >> issue.
>> 
>> > True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
>> > about the personality or lack of, of the developer?
>> 
>> When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
>> support one might get, it matters quite a lot.
>> 
> But going way back, I never had an issue with Brian's handling of
> support.  I got Thoth when I got the original OSX I think, or
> thereabouts anyway.  When I asked questions about it, I always got
> quick responses.

> And just this morning I had a couple questions and got a response
> within minutes.

> I'd say his support is fine.

>> When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
>> deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.
>>
> Yeah, I remember that.  Didn't like it then, but sure did like when he
> finally did redo it.

The 2.0 version that's been on the mythical "coming soon" drawing table
has been there for close to a decade (2005, IIRC).

>> The fact of the matter is that I've never used Thoth, but I am well
>> aware of it, and of Brian and of the constant stream of shit that has
>> issued from him over the last about 15 years. Because of this, when
>> uniformed people mention they are planning on using Thoth (or worse,
>> pay for it) I am quick to dissuade them as much as I possibly can.

> Since you've never used it, nor asked him for support, you are basing
> your opinion on things read on the internet concerning it.

Yes, but they were things said *by* the developer.

> The relevant fact is that Brian for all his faults and foibles, has
> produced a superb usenet client for OSX.

Well, someone did, and he built on their code.

-- 
Clarke's Law: Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 1:39:00 PM
In article <slrnl6sq7k.tjm.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <281020130816560304%lloydp21@live.com> 
>   Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnl6rn53.su3.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> > <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> >> In message <l4kk25$uj3$1@dont-email.me> 
> >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >> > On 2013-10-28 02:11:25 +0000, Lewis said:
> >> 
> >> >> In message <l4kgnt$g8l$1@dont-email.me>
> >> >>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >> >>> On 2013-10-28 01:26:02 +0000, Lewis said:
> >> >> 
> >> >>>> In message <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>
> >> >>>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> >> >>>>> Not impressed by the text-only doccy. Why didn't he do it properly
> >> >>>>> (in,
> >> >>>>> say, Pages) and issue a PDF?
> >> >>>> 
> >> >>>> Because he wasn't able to find someone else who'd already done it that
> >> >>>> he could steal from.
> >> >> 
> >> >>> Enough of that crap!  We went through this whole thing years ago.
> >> >> 
> >> >> I don't understand you're point. Does it stop being relevant that he
> >> >> stole code and has spend 15 years lying about it?
> >> 
> >> > The point was made years ago and caused lots of vitriol right here.  Do 
> >> > we need another chance for you and others on your side of that fence to 
> >> > take all the shots again?
> >> 
> >> > I don't think so.
> >> 
> >> >> 
> >> >> He's also a slimy sniveling asshole, but that's an entirely different
> >> >> issue.
> >> 
> >> > True, it is a different issue.  But then who actually gives a damn 
> >> > about the personality or lack of, of the developer?
> >> 
> >> When the personality disorder determines the pace of upgrades and the
> >> support one might get, it matters quite a lot.
> >> 
> > But going way back, I never had an issue with Brian's handling of
> > support.  I got Thoth when I got the original OSX I think, or
> > thereabouts anyway.  When I asked questions about it, I always got
> > quick responses.
> 
> > And just this morning I had a couple questions and got a response
> > within minutes.
> 
> > I'd say his support is fine.
> 
> >> When the developer spends many years whining and then failing to
> >> deliver promised updates, it matters quite a lot.
> >>
> > Yeah, I remember that.  Didn't like it then, but sure did like when he
> > finally did redo it.
> 
> The 2.0 version that's been on the mythical "coming soon" drawing table
> has been there for close to a decade (2005, IIRC).
> 
So what?

At this point in time, Thoth is one of the very best usenet clients out
there.  Would I like to see a V2.0?  Sure, but as long as this version
works extremely well and is very powerful, I'll manage.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 1:43:05 PM
In message <slrnl6sn96.2c1.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
  Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 12:32:16 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>>  In message <slrnl6rs46.14l.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
>>    Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 03:05:42 +0000 (UTC), Bob Harris wrote:
>> >>  However, I think slrn really only suited for someone that enjoys the
>> >>  command line, as there is no mouse/trackpad action.  Everything id done via
>> >>  the keyboard, and text editors.  
>> 
>> > That depends. The terminal in MacOS seems somehow broken. On Linux
>> > xterms I did use mouse actions quite often.
>> 
>>  What sort of mouse actions?

> I installed a plugin which does support cursor placement within vim,
> scrolling, selection etc. But this does work form vim only, not for
> slrn.

What would you use that for in slrn? The only 'cursor' position is the
current article position.

>>  The Terminal in OS X is very good (and I've use many over the years).
>> 
>> > I'm still on 10.6 - but I guess that was never fixed?
>> 
>>  No idea, since you posted a vague accusation instead of any specific
>>  issue.

> within the xterm I could use the mouse for placement, copy,paste,
> selection, visual block marking etc. Most of this now is possible via 
> http://www.culater.net/dl/files/SIMBL-0.9.9.zip and
> https://bitheap.org/mouseterm/MouseTerm-1.0b1.dmg

You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
and for copy & paste. You can also use the select/3rd button to select
and paste text.

> Within slrn I could not only select groups and articles, but scroll and
> select menu items from the top menu. I don't remember what else could be
> done with mouse support in slrn.

Yeah, terminal.app does not do that sort of mouse integration. I
actually prefer that myself, which is why I use it. In fact, I don't
even use the mouse in Gvim.

However, I think several other terminal emulators do. iTerm, perhaps.

-- 
Keep Virginia clean...throw your trash into Maryland.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 1:45:30 PM
In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
<lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> I asked Brian about that very thing.  He said timed gathering of new
> posts has never been in Thoth though MTNW did offer it.  From his
> answer, it doesn't appear that it ever will.

Righto, thanks. Pity, but there it is. And anyway Thoth does some
things better than MT-NW.

> Also asked him about making Thoth position the cursor on replies to the
> end of the original post, again it isn't there and won't be.  His
> position is that posts should be trimmed and responded to inline with
> the various comments in the original posting.  Personally I don't agree
> with that as default, but that's the way it is.

Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
timstreater2 (1190)
10/28/2013 1:54:09 PM
On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:

> In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> 
>> I asked Brian about that very thing.  He said timed gathering of new
>> posts has never been in Thoth though MTNW did offer it.  From his
>> answer, it doesn't appear that it ever will.
> 
> Righto, thanks. Pity, but there it is. And anyway Thoth does some
> things better than MT-NW.

Very true.  I remember back in the day, that I was looking for a good 
usenet client.  Looked at MTNW and Thoth among many, decided Thoth was 
better even though not free.

Somewhere in OSX upgrades, the version of Thoth I had wouldn't work and 
I was a little irritated for whatever reason at the time, and switched 
to MTNW.

> 
>> Also asked him about making Thoth position the cursor on replies to the
>> end of the original post, again it isn't there and won't be.  His
>> position is that posts should be trimmed and responded to inline with
>> the various comments in the original posting.  Personally I don't agree
>> with that as default, but that's the way it is.
> 
> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.

I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I 
generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For 
larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/28/2013 2:01:01 PM
On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't tried
> it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>
> -- Michelle
>
I used to use PAN newsreader: http://pan.rebelbase.com/.
It is specialized on Usenet, free and pretty powerful.
The small caveat is that it uses GTK, i.e. it has it own menu on a Mac.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/28/2013 3:01:27 PM
On Oct/27/2013 9:3009 PM, Ted Lee wrote:
> On 10/27/13, 11:41 AM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>
> ...
>
> Anyway, I'm OK with Thunderbird for newsgroups although I haven't found
> any way to keep track of a message now and then that I wanted to go back
> to, although I haven't played with *all* the ways of marking or tagging
> messages.
>


I mark messages I want to go back to with a star. When I want to go back 
to a starred message, I choose classification by the star column and 
find the desired message among the relatively few in that column. Then I 
restore classification by my default date column.


-- 
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>    ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>   ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/    ||
||    Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso  ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
0
arvimide (186)
10/28/2013 3:02:52 PM
Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> On 10-27-2013, 12:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> There will never be a consensus on that one.
> 
> I still like Thunderbird.  Tried every other free one I've heard of, and
> Thunderbird is the best FOR ME.
> 

That's the real bottom line for everyone 8-)

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
drache (421)
10/28/2013 3:16:26 PM
Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that I
> could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't tried it
> yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle

Is Mavericks a new OS?  Did they run out of cats?  Next will be Longhorn? 
It doesn't run MTNW?

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
drache (421)
10/28/2013 3:16:28 PM
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:45:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> >>  What sort of mouse actions?
> 
> > I installed a plugin which does support cursor placement within vim,
> > scrolling, selection etc. But this does work form vim only, not for
> > slrn.
> 
>  What would you use that for in slrn? The only 'cursor' position is the
>  current article position.

With the mouse I could select a newsgroup from a list of newsgroups.

You can do that within slrn?

> > within the xterm I could use the mouse for placement, copy,paste,
> > selection, visual block marking etc. Most of this now is possible via 
> > http://www.culater.net/dl/files/SIMBL-0.9.9.zip and
> > https://bitheap.org/mouseterm/MouseTerm-1.0b1.dmg
> 
>  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,

Which command line to you refer to?

Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
command line. However, I can do this within a vim command line. But I'm
not aware of a command line within slrn. Which one is there?

>  and for copy & paste. 

copy/paste within slrn? I don't know where to use this one either.
I can in vim, I can't within the shell.

>  You can also use the select/3rd button to select
>  and paste text.

Yes, that's what I always could do: select a text. But I can't copy with
the mouse. I can drag and drop within the command line, but not to any
position, but to the current cursor position only.

So all of that is different to what I could do within a linux xterm,
both for slrn and for the shell. Please explain, what you mean by
"Current Command Line".

> > Within slrn I could not only select groups and articles, but scroll and
> > select menu items from the top menu. I don't remember what else could be
> > done with mouse support in slrn.
> 
>  Yeah, terminal.app does not do that sort of mouse integration. 

Exactly - and I feel that's why I can't do it within the terminal,
running slrn. However, I was surprised that this can be bypassed for vim
within the terminal, and maybe it just depends on ncurses, slang or
whatever lib is used - and there are many things where the mouse would
come in very handy.

>  However, I think several other terminal emulators do. iTerm, perhaps.

Yes, iTerm does, a little bit. Last time I checked it did not work for
everything I had before.

I don't need the mouse very often within slrn or vim, but there are some
things which can be done better with mouse support.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/28/2013 3:19:55 PM
In article <l4lv4b$kjm$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> > Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > 
> > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that I
> > could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't tried it
> > yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
>  Is Mavericks a new OS?

New version of OSX.

>  Did they run out of cats?

Pretty much.

>  Next will be Longhorn? 

Hardly.

>  It doesn't run MTNW?

Nope, they removed OpenTransport, which is needed by MTNW. 
 


-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/28/2013 3:21:55 PM
In article <slrnl6t04r.2c1.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> >  What would you use that for in slrn? The only 'cursor' position is the
> >  current article position.
> 
>  With the mouse I could select a newsgroup from a list of newsgroups.
>
>  You can do that within slrn?

Yep.

> >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> 
>  Which command line to you refer to?

The shell command line, presumably.

>  Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
>  command line.

In the OSX Terminal app, you can.

>  However, I can do this within a vim command line.

Same functionality.

> >  and for copy & paste. 
> 
>  copy/paste within slrn? I don't know where to use this one either.
>  I can in vim, I can't within the shell.

You can in the Terminal app in OSX.



-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/28/2013 3:26:27 PM
On 2013-10-27, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>> > On 2013-10-27 21:50:08 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
>> >
>> >> Ultimately, I'd write a new Mac Usenet client and try to re-think the
>> >> whole idea of a Usenet client while I'm at it.
>> >
>> > Go for it; put everything else on hold.
>> 
>> One of these days, maybe...
>
> *prod* *annoy* *bother* *makes your usb cables and hubs a giant loop
> that never actually connects to your Mac*

I really just need to win the lotto...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
10/28/2013 3:51:11 PM
On 2013-10-28 15:31:14 +0000, Michelle Steiner 
<email@michelle@michelle.org> said:

> On 2013-10-28 15:16:28 +0000, Erilar said:
> 
>> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> 
> Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> 
>> Did they run out of cats?
> 
> Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.

I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

>> Next will be Longhorn?
> 
> I think that MS has the rights to that.  Apple is now using "inspiring 
> locations in California" for OS X names.

I think surf breaks might be the call here, so perhaps, "Trestles", 
"Hazards Canyon", "Rincon", etc., but the Califoria locations also make 
sense/ Consider "El Capitan". "Tenaya", etc. ;-)


>> It doesn't run MTNW?
> 
> Correct.  MTNW requires Open Transport, which was deprecated in 10.4 or 
> 10.5, and removed in 10.9.
> 
> -- Michelle


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 3:57:42 PM
On 28 Oct 2013 15:26:27 GMT, Sandman wrote:
> >  You can do that within slrn?
> 
>  Yep.

not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2
> 
> > >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> > 
> >  Which command line to you refer to?
> 
>  The shell command line, presumably.

not here, s.a.

> >  Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
> >  command line.
> 
>  In the OSX Terminal app, you can.

not here, s.a.

> >  copy/paste within slrn? I don't know where to use this one either.
> >  I can in vim, I can't within the shell.
> 
>  You can in the Terminal app in OSX.

no, not here, s.a.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/28/2013 4:17:31 PM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

I always wanted OS X Housecat, myself.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 4:25:47 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> >> > On 2013-10-27 21:50:08 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
> >> >
> >> >> Ultimately, I'd write a new Mac Usenet client and try to re-think the
> >> >> whole idea of a Usenet client while I'm at it.
> >> >
> >> > Go for it; put everything else on hold.
> >> 
> >> One of these days, maybe...
> >
> > *prod* *annoy* *bother* *makes your usb cables and hubs a giant loop
> > that never actually connects to your Mac*
> 
> I really just need to win the lotto...

*grins* Then I shall wish the same.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/28/2013 4:28:13 PM
In article <l4lqmt$nmb$1@dont-email.me>, Lloyd  E Parsons
<lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:
> 
> > In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
> > <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> I asked Brian about that very thing.  He said timed gathering of new
> >> posts has never been in Thoth though MTNW did offer it.  From his
> >> answer, it doesn't appear that it ever will.
> > 
> > Righto, thanks. Pity, but there it is. And anyway Thoth does some
> > things better than MT-NW.
> 
> Very true.  I remember back in the day, that I was looking for a good 
> usenet client.  Looked at MTNW and Thoth among many, decided Thoth was 
> better even though not free.
> 
> Somewhere in OSX upgrades, the version of Thoth I had wouldn't work and 
> I was a little irritated for whatever reason at the time, and switched 
> to MTNW.
> 
> > 
> >> Also asked him about making Thoth position the cursor on replies to the
> >> end of the original post, again it isn't there and won't be.  His
> >> position is that posts should be trimmed and responded to inline with
> >> the various comments in the original posting.  Personally I don't agree
> >> with that as default, but that's the way it is.
> > 
> > Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
> > stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
> > irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
> 
> I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I 
> generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For 
> larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.

In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
and your new message only quotes the selected text.
0
yourname3 (802)
10/28/2013 8:09:16 PM
In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 15:31:14 +0000, Michelle Steiner 
> <email@michelle@michelle.org> said:
> > On 2013-10-28 15:16:28 +0000, Erilar said:
> > 
> >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> > 
> > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> > 
> >> Did they run out of cats?
> > 
> > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
> 
> I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

Or Ocelot, or Tabby, or Persian, or Manx (this one could have gone well
with the release of the wireless mouse and keyboard), or ...   ;-)

There are 37 species of cats in this list (including "Domesticated
Cat", which in itself would have lots of breeds).
http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/education/species/

BUT, I'm not sure how trustworthy that list is. For a start it is
missing Panther and has Puma listed as a "Small Cat".  :-\
0
yourname3 (802)
10/28/2013 8:22:51 PM
On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
 > Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
 > Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
 >
 > į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
 > į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
 > ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
 >
 > -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
 >

įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ 
քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ 
աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/28/2013 8:37:39 PM
In message <slrnl6t04r.2c1.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
  Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:45:30 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>> >>  What sort of mouse actions?
>> 
>> > I installed a plugin which does support cursor placement within vim,
>> > scrolling, selection etc. But this does work form vim only, not for
>> > slrn.
>> 
>>  What would you use that for in slrn? The only 'cursor' position is the
>>  current article position.

> With the mouse I could select a newsgroup from a list of newsgroups.

> You can do that within slrn?

My slrn usage is to hit the space bar to start reading messages. I use
the n and d keys to move through messages. At the end of a group, I
get put into the next group.

>> > within the xterm I could use the mouse for placement, copy,paste,
>> > selection, visual block marking etc. Most of this now is possible via 
>> > http://www.culater.net/dl/files/SIMBL-0.9.9.zip and
>> > https://bitheap.org/mouseterm/MouseTerm-1.0b1.dmg
>> 
>>  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,

> Which command line to you refer to?

In my case, bash, but that's not important. Option clicking on any
commandline positions the cursor. It appears to also work in Vim (I
just tried it, have never used it before now).

> Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
> command line.

I can.

>>  You can also use the select/3rd button to select
>>  and paste text.

> Yes, that's what I always could do: select a text. But I can't copy with
> the mouse.

You can select and then paste the selected text using the third mouse
button, just like the old days in Solaris.

> I can drag and drop within the command line, but not to any
> position, but to the current cursor position only.

But you an position the cursor anywhere you want.

> So all of that is different to what I could do within a linux xterm,
> both for slrn and for the shell. Please explain, what you mean by
> "Current Command Line".

% This is _ the command line -

(- position of cursor, _ position after option-click between is and
the)

-- 
Say, give it up, give it up, television's taking its toll That's enough,
that's enough, gimme the remote control I've been nice, I've been good,
please don't do this to me Turn it off, turn it off, I don't want to
have to see
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 8:47:53 PM
In message <bd7fffFt47nU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-27, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>>> > On 2013-10-27 21:50:08 +0000, Jolly Roger said:
>>> >
>>> >> Ultimately, I'd write a new Mac Usenet client and try to re-think the
>>> >> whole idea of a Usenet client while I'm at it.
>>> >
>>> > Go for it; put everything else on hold.
>>> 
>>> One of these days, maybe...
>>
>> *prod* *annoy* *bother* *makes your usb cables and hubs a giant loop
>> that never actually connects to your Mac*

> I really just need to win the lotto...

I have a better plan. *I* will win the lotto, then I'll pay you $5000
to throw a GUI around slrn.

-- 
The Force can have a strong influence on a weak mind.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 8:55:10 PM
On 2013-10-28 20:37:39 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>  > Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
>  > Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
>  >
>  > į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
>  > į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
>  > ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
>  >
>  > -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
>  >
> 
> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ 
> քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ 
> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.

Then I guess Unison qualifies. ;-)


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 9:17:45 PM
In article <slrnl6t3gr.2c1.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> > >  You can do that within slrn?
> > 
> >  Yep.
> 
>  not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2

set mouse 1
or slrn -m

> > > >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> > > 
> > >  Which command line to you refer to?
> > 
> >  The shell command line, presumably.
> 
>  not here, s.a.

But here, and in any OSX install since 10.1 at least. 

> > >  Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
> > >  command line.
> > 
> >  In the OSX Terminal app, you can.
> 
>  not here, s.a.

But in the OSX Terminal app.
 
> > >  copy/paste within slrn? I don't know where to use this one either.
> > >  I can in vim, I can't within the shell.
> > 
> >  You can in the Terminal app in OSX.
> 
>  no, not here, s.a.

But you can in the Terminal app in OSX. 


-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/28/2013 9:19:45 PM
On 28.10.2013 22:17, Savageduck wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 20:37:39 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun
> <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:
>
>> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>  > Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ
>> Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
>>  > Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
>>  >
>>  > į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ
>> էհąէ
>>  > į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է
>> էɾìҽժ
>>  > ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
>>  >
>>  > -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
>>  >
>>
>> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ
>> էօ քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
>> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ
>> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.
>
> Then I guess Unison qualifies. ;-)
>
>
Unison yes, Thoth not, Hogwasher? just tell me!

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/28/2013 9:20:41 PM
In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> > 
> > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> > 
> >> Did they run out of cats?
> > 
> > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
> 
>  I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

And Lynx or Ocelot :)


-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/28/2013 9:22:22 PM
On 2013-10-28, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
> > Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
> >
> > į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
> > į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
> > ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
> >
> > -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
> >
>
> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ 
> քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ 
> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.
>

Plain vanilla slrn doesn't wanna play. Maybe there's a feature I haven't
enabled or an add-on that'll do the right thing though...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
10/28/2013 9:25:34 PM
On 28.10.2013 22:25, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2013-10-28, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>> Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
>>> Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
>>>
>>> į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
>>> į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
>>> ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
>>>
>>> -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
>>>
>>
>> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ
>> քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
>> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ
>> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.
>>
>
> Plain vanilla slrn doesn't wanna play. Maybe there's a feature I haven't
> enabled or an add-on that'll do the right thing though...
>
of course, you need a unicode enabled font as well in Terminal, have you?


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/28/2013 9:41:41 PM
In message <slrnl6tliv.b0i.mr@irc.sandman.net> 
  Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnl6t3gr.2c1.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

>> > >  You can do that within slrn?
>> > 
>> >  Yep.
>> 
>>  not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2

> set mouse 1
> or slrn -m

Interesting. If I launch slrn -m I get the menu bar, but I don't see
how to access the menus. Clicking with the mouse doesn't do anything
and option clicking causes a lot of beeping (put that will move the
cursor in the list of groups).

>> > > >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
>> > > 
>> > >  Which command line to you refer to?
>> > 
>> >  The shell command line, presumably.
>> 
>>  not here, s.a.

> But here, and in any OSX install since 10.1 at least. 

I seem to recall you had to enable option-click in the prefs at one
point, but I don't know how long ago that was.

-- 
I DID NOT SEE ELVIS Bart chalkboard Ep. 7G07
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 10:48:11 PM
In message <2013102814174535083-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-28 20:37:39 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

>> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>  > Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
>>  > Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
>>  >
>>  > į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
>>  > į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
>>  > ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
>>  >
>>  > -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
>>  >
>> 
>> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ 
>> քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
>> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ 
>> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.

> Then I guess Unison qualifies. ;-)

UTF-8 people, all posts should be encoded in UTF-8.


-- 
I'm on the path, he thought. I don't have to know where it leads. I just
have to follow.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/28/2013 11:01:26 PM
On 2013-10-28 23:01:26 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <2013102814174535083-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>
>   Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-10-28 20:37:39 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:
> 
>>> On 27.10.2013 17:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>>> Ϛօ ահąէ ìʂ էհҽ çօղʂҽղʂմʂ ƒօɾ ą ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ էօ ɾҽքӀąçҽ ⱮͲហచ օղ Ɱąѵҽɾìçҟʂ?
>>>> Ͳհօէհ, Աղìʂօղ, Ƕօցաąʂհҽɾ, ʂօʍҽէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ?
>>>> 
>>>> į'ʍ էɾվìղց Աղìʂօղ, ąղժ į'ʍ ղօէ ąӀӀ էհąէ հąքքվ աìէհ ìէ, ҍմէ į ցմҽʂʂ էհąէ
>>>> į çօմӀժ Ӏҽąɾղ էօ Ӏìѵҽ աìէհ ìէ.  į'ѵҽ ժօաղӀօąժҽժ Ͳհօէհ, ҍմէ հąѵҽղ'է էɾìҽժ
>>>> ìէ վҽէ; ìʂ ìէ աօɾէհ ցìѵìղց ìէ ą էɾվ?
>>>> 
>>>> -- ⱮìçհҽӀӀҽ
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> įⱮǶට վօմ ʂհօմӀժ մʂҽ ą ʂէąղժąɾժʂ-çօʍքӀìąղէ մʂҽղҽէ çӀìҽղէ էհąէ ìʂ ąҍӀҽ էօ
>>> քɾօçҽʂʂ մղìçօժҽ çօɾɾҽçէӀվ.
>>> įƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ էհìʂ ʍҽʂʂąցҽ, վօմɾ çӀìҽղէ ìʂ քɾօҍąҍӀվ հąղժӀìղց Աղìçօժҽ
>>> աҽӀӀ ҽղօմցհ.
> 
>> Then I guess Unison qualifies. ;-)
> 
> UTF-8 people, all posts should be encoded in UTF-8.

....and Unison qualifies there.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/28/2013 11:27:07 PM
In article <slrnl6tlnt.b0i.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman
<mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> > > 
> > > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> > > 
> > >> Did they run out of cats?
> > > 
> > > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
> > 
> >  I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)
> 
> And Lynx or Ocelot :)

One of the big(ish) rumours at the beginning of the year was that Mac
OS X 10.9 would be called Lynx.  :-)

Apple simply ran out of big cat names. Coming down from Lion (or
Mountain Lion) to Lynx might have been considered to be sending the
wrong "message" about it being less powerful or some such marketing /
pshco-babble nonsense.

They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
silly codenames fit.
0
yourname3 (802)
10/29/2013 12:29:13 AM
On 2013-10-28, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 28.10.2013 22:25, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> Plain vanilla slrn doesn't wanna play. Maybe there's a feature I haven't
>> enabled or an add-on that'll do the right thing though...
>>
> of course, you need a unicode enabled font as well in Terminal, have you?

I'm using "Source Code Pro", so perhaps not. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
10/29/2013 12:36:23 AM
In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> silly codenames fit.

The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
people to keep track of than a number.

-- 
'It's still a lie. Like the lie about masks.' 'What lie about masks?'
'The way people say they hide faces.' 'They do hide faces,' said Nanny
Ogg.  'Only the one on the outside.' --Maskerade
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/29/2013 1:43:48 AM
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 20:47:53 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>  My slrn usage is to hit the space bar to start reading messages. I use
>  the n and d keys to move through messages. At the end of a group, I
>  get put into the next group.

same to me, I rarely need mouse support.

Nevertheless it's in there and I used it before, on the Linux platform.

> >> > within the xterm I could use the mouse for placement, copy,paste,
> >> > selection, visual block marking etc. Most of this now is possible via 
> >> > http://www.culater.net/dl/files/SIMBL-0.9.9.zip and
> >> > https://bitheap.org/mouseterm/MouseTerm-1.0b1.dmg
> >> 
> >>  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> 
> > Which command line to you refer to?
> 
>  In my case, bash, but that's not important. Option clicking on any
>  commandline positions the cursor. It appears to also work in Vim (I
>  just tried it, have never used it before now).

Nice to know, never did that before. But option+mouse is very different
to mouse only.

It even works in slrn with option-mouse, a little bit: lots of beeps
when selecting a group, blanked out subject list and no access to the
top level menu.

> > Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
> > command line.
> 
>  I can.

But just with the +option, isn't it?

> >>  You can also use the select/3rd button to select
> >>  and paste text.
> 
> > Yes, that's what I always could do: select a text. But I can't copy with
> > the mouse.
> 
>  You can select and then paste the selected text using the third mouse
>  button, just like the old days in Solaris.

Can't try that with the trackpad, although ctrl+option+mouse seems to do
that.

Thanks to you I learned that there is some mouse option within the
shell command line, and even a little bit within slrn.

But when you edit the .slrnrc with
    set mouse 1
you can't take full profit of that.

Even worse, copy and paste now seems broken to me. I can't use
copy/paste any longer within vim for more than a word. I'm
afraid that's due to the plugin I just installed. Crap.
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 4:56:42 AM
On 28 Oct 2013 21:19:45 GMT, Sandman wrote:
> >  not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2
> 
>  set mouse 1
>  or slrn -m

As Lewis stated, this does turn on the top line menu. But that does not
meen that mouse now will work.

option-click does a little bit, but not the full mouse support as
expected.

> > > > >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> > > > 
> > > >  Which command line to you refer to?
> > > 
> > >  The shell command line, presumably.
> > 
> >  not here, s.a.
> 
>  But here, and in any OSX install since 10.1 at least. 

Do you use an external, multi button mouse? 
I just had told you that it does not work here. So maybe YOU could do
that, but I can't.

> > > >  Within the shell's command line I can't place the cursor within the
> > > >  command line.
> > > 
> > >  In the OSX Terminal app, you can.
> > 
> >  not here, s.a.
> 
>  But in the OSX Terminal app.

You are ignorant. 

So maybe I'm wrong. But Lewis confirmed the same thing, on his system /
hardware / MacOS version. Think about that...

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 5:00:53 AM
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> > silly codenames fit.
> 
>  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
>  people to keep track of than a number.

I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe waiting
for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 

Tell me, which one was Capone?

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 5:04:55 AM
In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
��rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> > > silly codenames fit.
> > 
> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
> >  people to keep track of than a number.
> 
> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
> 
> Tell me, which one was Capone?

Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
random silly names.

If someone says they're using Leopard and someone else says they're
using Mountina Lion, only the geeky folls who have memorised all the
code names know which is the newer / better. If someone says they're
suing 10.6 and someone else says they 10.8, then it's immediately
obvious.

Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
screw up many computer sorting systems.

They should have simply done the obvious and called it Mac OS X 1, Mac
OS X 2, Mac OS X 3, etc.
0
yourname3 (802)
10/29/2013 5:25:10 AM
In article <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
> going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
> screw up many computer sorting systems.

10.4.10 and 10.4.11 took care of that issue.
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/29/2013 5:33:33 AM
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:25:10 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>  Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
>  going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
>  screw up many computer sorting systems.
> 
>  They should have simply done the obvious and called it Mac OS X 1, Mac
>  OS X 2, Mac OS X 3, etc.

Sorry, I don't get that. Why would Mac OS X 10 vs. Mac OS X 1 sort any
better than MacOS 10.1 vs MacOS 10.10?

Oh, BTW - I sometimes hate how the Finder does sort, since the Finder
sometimes claims to know better than I do how to sort by numbers.
However, see http://666kb.com/i/cisd4qnqcnkyd5lc7.gif
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 5:37:21 AM
In article <slrnl6uich.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
��rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:25:10 +1300, Your Name wrote:
> >  Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
> >  going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
> >  screw up many computer sorting systems.
> > 
> >  They should have simply done the obvious and called it Mac OS X 1, Mac
> >  OS X 2, Mac OS X 3, etc.
> 
> Sorry, I don't get that. Why would Mac OS X 10 vs. Mac OS X 1 sort any
> better than MacOS 10.1 vs MacOS 10.10?
<snip> 

Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".

Not having it would simply make the name less cumbersome ... unless
Apple is planning NOT to have "Mac OS X 10.10" and instead move to "Mac
OS Y 1.0" or "Mac OS XI 1.0".   ;-)
0
yourname3 (802)
10/29/2013 6:25:09 AM
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 19:25:09 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>  Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
>  separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
>  there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".

Ah, so you may call it MacOSX for the whole family, but should use
MacOS 10.6, MacOS 10.7, MacOS 10.10,
but not MacOSX 6, MacOSX 10, ...

>  Apple is planning NOT to have "Mac OS X 10.10" and instead move to "Mac
>  OS Y 1.0" or "Mac OS XI 1.0".   ;-)

Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
MacOS 10.6
MacOS 10.9
MacOS 10.A
MacOS 10.F

0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 7:25:38 AM
In article <slrnl6tqdb.14f7.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >> > >  You can do that within slrn?
> >> > 
> >> >  Yep.
> >> 
> >>  not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2
> 
> > set mouse 1
> > or slrn -m
> 
>  Interesting. If I launch slrn -m I get the menu bar, but I don't see
>  how to access the menus. Clicking with the mouse doesn't do anything
>  and option clicking causes a lot of beeping (put that will move the
>  cursor in the list of groups).

Yeah, my mistake, this doesn't actually work in Terminal.app, it does in 
iTerm. Long time since I used it.

> >> > > >  You can use the mouse for placement within the current command line,
> >> > > 
> >> > >  Which command line to you refer to?
> >> > 
> >> >  The shell command line, presumably.
> >> 
> >>  not here, s.a.
> 
> > But here, and in any OSX install since 10.1 at least. 
> 
>  I seem to recall you had to enable option-click in the prefs at one
>  point, but I don't know how long ago that was.

Maybe. I don't see it as an option in the preferences anymore, but works by 
default. option-click anywhere in the command line (or in pico) to place 
the cursor there.


-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/29/2013 7:44:34 AM
In article <slrnl6ug84.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> >  set mouse 1
> >  or slrn -m
> 
>  As Lewis stated, this does turn on the top line menu. But that does not
>  meen that mouse now will work.

Correct, my mistake. This works in iTerm, not Terminal. Don't know why 
though since Terminal has mouse support.

> > > >  The shell command line, presumably.
> > > 
> > >  not here, s.a.
> > 
> >  But here, and in any OSX install since 10.1 at least. 
> 
>  Do you use an external, multi button mouse? 

As opposed to an internal mouse? :) It doesn't matter what mouse I use, 
Apple mouse, third party mouse, built in trackpad.

>  I just had told you that it does not work here. So maybe YOU could do
>  that, but I can't.

I can't comment on your setup, but on four Macs here, it works as it 
should. 

> > > >  In the OSX Terminal app, you can.
> > > 
> > >  not here, s.a.
> > 
> >  But in the OSX Terminal app.
> 
>  You are ignorant. 

Quite obviously not. 

>  So maybe I'm wrong. But Lewis confirmed the same thing, on his system /
>  hardware / MacOS version. Think about that...

No need. And all he "confirmed" was that slrn didn't work as I described, 
which I agree with, my mistake.


-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/29/2013 7:47:32 AM
In article <slrnl6uonh.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
> MacOS 10.6
> MacOS 10.9
> MacOS 10.A
> MacOS 10.F

nothing like confusing everyone but geeks, and what do you do after
10.f?
0
nospam59 (11088)
10/29/2013 8:07:57 AM
On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
> and your new message only quotes the selected text.

Wow! that is really cool ;-)

Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.

βմէ էհօէհ çąղ'է հąղժӀҽ մղìçօժҽ...
էհąէ ìʂ ղօէ ąççҽքէąҍӀҽ ìղ էհҽ ϩl ʂէ çҽղէմɾվ.

Regards

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/29/2013 8:53:23 AM
On 28.10.2013 15:01, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
>> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
>> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
>> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
>
> I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I
> generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For
> larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.

Can't you just hide all quotes with a single click?
I miss it in TB as well, but PAN has it, and it is really useful.


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/29/2013 8:56:55 AM
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 04:07:57 -0400, nospam wrote:
>  In article <slrnl6uonh.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
>  ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> > Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
> > MacOS 10.6
> > MacOS 10.9
> > MacOS 10.A
> > MacOS 10.F
> 
>  nothing like confusing everyone but geeks, and what do you do after
>  10.f?
    
    10.10 ;-)
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 9:00:40 AM
On 29 Oct 2013 07:47:32 GMT, Sandman wrote:
> >  So maybe I'm wrong. But Lewis confirmed the same thing, on his system /
> >  hardware / MacOS version. Think about that...
> 
>  No need. And all he "confirmed" was that slrn didn't work as I described, 
>  which I agree with, my mistake.

Ok, now we solved where we disagreed.

iTerm does some things properly, where Termial.app does not behave as I
expected. Why, that's Apple's mystery.

CU,
Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/29/2013 9:03:12 AM
On 27.10.2013 18:01, Davoud wrote:

> Thoth is a solid, reliable, plain-vanilla newsreader. It has served me
> since, well, since I-don't-know-when. Version 1.9.0.22, which is
> somewhere near the latest version, is going strong under Mavericks.
>
βմէ էհօէհ çąղ'է հąղժӀҽ մղìçօժҽ...
էհąէ ìʂ ղօէ ąççҽքէąҍӀҽ ìղ էհҽ ϩl ʂէ çҽղէմɾվ.

Crossposting in three groups isn't nice either.
F'up to c.s.m.s
-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/29/2013 9:09:44 AM
In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (�crivait)�:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?

MacSOUP ?

Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.

-- 
Jean-Pierre Kuypers
0
10/29/2013 9:10:40 AM
In article <slrnl6uueg.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> > >  So maybe I'm wrong. But Lewis confirmed the same thing, on his system /
> > >  hardware / MacOS version. Think about that...
> > 
> >  No need. And all he "confirmed" was that slrn didn't work as I described, 
> >  which I agree with, my mistake.
> 
>  Ok, now we solved where we disagreed.
> 
>  iTerm does some things properly, where Termial.app does not behave as I
>  expected. Why, that's Apple's mystery.

But Terminal supports mouse in the shell and in text editors such as 
nano/pico



-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/29/2013 9:42:05 AM
In article <291020131010406196%Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid>,
J.P. Kuypers <Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid> wrote:

> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (�crivait)�:
> 
> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
> >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> MacSOUP ?
> 
> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.

There's no accounting for taste is there?  :)

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/29/2013 1:36:18 PM
In article <slrnl6uonh.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
��rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 19:25:09 +1300, Your Name wrote:
> >  Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
> >  separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
> >  there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".
> 
> Ah, so you may call it MacOSX for the whole family, but should use
> MacOS 10.6, MacOS 10.7, MacOS 10.10,
> but not MacOSX 6, MacOSX 10, ...

The whole family would simply be Mac OS 10, since the different
versions have the suffix numbers (10.1, 10.4, etc.).




> >  Apple is planning NOT to have "Mac OS X 10.10" and instead move to "Mac
> >  OS Y 1.0" or "Mac OS XI 1.0".   ;-)
> 
> Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
> MacOS 10.6
> MacOS 10.9
> MacOS 10.A
> MacOS 10.F

That only gives them a few more years though. Maybe they should just
continue the alphabet up to Mac OS 10.Z to give themselves more time to
come up with Mac OS 11.  ;-)
0
yourname3 (802)
10/29/2013 8:26:28 PM
Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <slrnl6uonh.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> > ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
> >> MacOS 10.6
> >> MacOS 10.9
> >> MacOS 10.A
> >> MacOS 10.F
> > 
> > nothing like confusing everyone but geeks, and what do you do after
> > 10.f?
> Matbe G?

That wouldn't be hex.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/29/2013 9:24:43 PM
Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> In article <291020131010406196%Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid>,
> J.P. Kuypers <Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (�crivait) :
> > 
> > > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> > >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > 
> > MacSOUP ?
> > 
> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> 
> There's no accounting for taste is there?  :)

I shun you sir! :-p

Regards,
 Jamie Kahn Genet
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/29/2013 9:25:53 PM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
> > In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
> > and your new message only quotes the selected text.
> 
> Wow! that is really cool ;-)
> 
> Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.
> 
> ??? ????? �??'? ?????? ??��???...
> ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????.
> 
> Regards

MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
well for email many years ago.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/29/2013 9:27:01 PM
In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> Ԥrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> > > 
>> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
>> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
>> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
>> > > silly codenames fit.
>> > 
>> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
>> >  people to keep track of than a number.
>> 
>> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
>> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
>> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
>> 
>> Tell me, which one was Capone?

> Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
> random silly names.

First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
true for some abnormal people.

> Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
> going to come next? 10.10?

Yes, 10.10 is already in testing internally.

> It would work for humans, but it's going to screw up many computer
> sorting systems.

Not unless those systems were programmed by gibbering morons.

-- 
you cannot code around infinite implementations of OCD -John C Welch
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/29/2013 9:35:21 PM
In message <slrnl6ug0a.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
  Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> Can't try that with the trackpad, although ctrl+option+mouse seems to do
> that.

Much like control+click is a shortcut for the rclick,
control+option+click is (supposed to be) a shortcut for the mclick.

> But when you edit the .slrnrc with
>     set mouse 1
> you can't take full profit of that.

I can't comment on that, as I've never tried to setup slrn for mouse
use. I suspect it is possible though.

-- 
Let the Wookiee win.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/29/2013 9:43:08 PM
In message <slrnl6uq6i.d0e.mr@irc.sandman.net> 
  Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnl6tqdb.14f7.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> >> > >  You can do that within slrn?
>> >> > 
>> >> >  Yep.
>> >> 
>> >>  not here - 10.6 Terminal.app 2.1.2
>> 
>> > set mouse 1
>> > or slrn -m
>> 
>>  Interesting. If I launch slrn -m I get the menu bar, but I don't see
>>  how to access the menus. Clicking with the mouse doesn't do anything
>>  and option clicking causes a lot of beeping (put that will move the
>>  cursor in the list of groups).

> Yeah, my mistake, this doesn't actually work in Terminal.app, it does in 
> iTerm. Long time since I used it.

I can't get the slrn menus to work in iTerm either.

-- 
"Yes," said the skull. "Quit while you're a head, that's what I say."
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/29/2013 11:19:44 PM
In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
 Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> >> > > 
> >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> >> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> >> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> >> > > silly codenames fit.
> >> > 
> >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
> >> >  people to keep track of than a number.
> >> 
> >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
> >> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
> >> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
> >> 
> >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
> 
> > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
> > random silly names.
> 
> First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
> more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
> number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
> true for some abnormal people.

I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each 
big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been 
running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me; 
I don't have to think about it.

My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6, 
but not the .8 part. 

I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to 
assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.

bill
0
10/29/2013 11:28:53 PM
bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> > In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> > >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> > >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> > >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > >> > > 
> > >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> > >> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> > >> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> > >> > > silly codenames fit.
> > >> > 
> > >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
> > >> >  people to keep track of than a number.
> > >> 
> > >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
> > >> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
> > >> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
> > >> 
> > >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
> > 
> > > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
> > > random silly names.
> > 
> > First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
> > more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
> > number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
> > true for some abnormal people.
> 
> I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each
> big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been
> running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me;
> I don't have to think about it.
> 
> My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6,
> but not the .8 part. 
> 
> I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to
> assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.
> 
> bill

I know I usually think of the version number first, then try to remember
the big cat name if that doesn't register for the person I'm talking to.
Version numbers after all give useful information - the version, where
in the sequence it fell, etc. Big cat names tell you very nothing unless
you already remember all the rest. Big cat names or place names are
cute. But not useful for anything but marketing. Version numbers are
real useful information.

I've been in many a discussion where big cat names are used and there is
confusion as to where in the sequence each lies (most often with
non-geeks). No such trouble with version numbers. Version numbers are
logical, but unattractive marketing-wise.

That's my experience and personal take on the matter.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 12:33:24 AM
On 29.10.2013 22:27, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
>>> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
>>> and your new message only quotes the selected text.
>>
>> Wow! that is really cool ;-)
>>
>> Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.
>>
>> ??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
>> ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
>>
>> Regards
>
> MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
> well for email many years ago.
>
Dear Jamie,
I did not post that:
"??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????."
but
"But thoth can't handle unicode...
that is not acceptable in the 21 st century. "
written in non-ascii unicode.
Apparently your MacSOUP is badly distorting unicode characters also.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 3:50:44 AM
On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
>
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>>   Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>
> MacSOUP ?
>
> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
>
They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort 
Unicode.
Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
If you can't read that:
քӀҽąʂҽ çհҽçҟ ìƒ վօմɾ ղҽաʂɾҽąժҽɾ çąղ հąղժӀҽ մղìçօժҽ...
ҽѵҽɾվէհìղց ҽӀʂҽ ìʂ ղօէ ąççҽքէąҍӀҽ ìղ էհҽ ϩl ʂէ çҽղէմɾվ.
You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
Laszlo
-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 4:00:15 AM
In article <1lbk2pn.1qawsvr1aflc0vN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> > I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each
> > big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been
> > running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me;
> > I don't have to think about it.
> > 
> > My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6,
> > but not the .8 part. 
> > 
> > I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to
> > assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.
> 
> I know I usually think of the version number first, then try to remember
> the big cat name if that doesn't register for the person I'm talking to.
> Version numbers after all give useful information - the version, where
> in the sequence it fell, etc. Big cat names tell you very nothing unless
> you already remember all the rest. Big cat names or place names are
> cute. But not useful for anything but marketing. Version numbers are
> real useful information.
> 
> I've been in many a discussion where big cat names are used and there is
> confusion as to where in the sequence each lies (most often with
> non-geeks). No such trouble with version numbers. Version numbers are
> logical, but unattractive marketing-wise.
> 
> That's my experience and personal take on the matter.

That seems sensible to me. The number, e.g. 10.6.8, puts the OS version 
in the context of preceding and succeeding versions. There is no such 
logic or connection with the names. 

Mavericks as an OS version name is kind of a shrug for me. It means 
something to California and to surfing communities, I guess, but it has 
no context for anyone else. It looks a bit dead-endish from here. I'll 
stick with the numbers.

bill
0
10/30/2013 6:14:35 AM
In article <billvan-57FF32.16285329102013@news.shawcable.net>, bill van
<billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> > >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> > >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> > >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> > >> > > 
> > >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
> > >> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
> > >> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
> > >> > > silly codenames fit.
> > >> > 
> > >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
> > >> >  people to keep track of than a number.
> > >> 
> > >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
> > >> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
> > >> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
> > >> 
> > >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
> > 
> > > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
> > > random silly names.
> > 
> > First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
> > more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
> > number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
> > true for some abnormal people.
> 
> I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each 
> big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been 
> running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me; 
> I don't have to think about it.
> 
> My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6, 
> but not the .8 part. 
> 
> I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to 
> assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.

Don't worry. Lewis is a dimbulb geek who thinks absolutely everyone
else does what he and his five geeky friends do (which is why the
numbnut is in my killfile). :-\

The fact is that in the real world very few people know what the
codename of the Mac OS is, and most people don't even know (nor care)
what OS they're using at all ... some Mac users even think they're
using Windows.
0
yourname3 (802)
10/30/2013 6:36:12 AM
bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

> In article <1lbk2pn.1qawsvr1aflc0vN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
>  jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > > I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each
> > > big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been
> > > running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me;
> > > I don't have to think about it.
> > > 
> > > My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6,
> > > but not the .8 part. 
> > > 
> > > I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to
> > > assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.
> > 
> > I know I usually think of the version number first, then try to remember
> > the big cat name if that doesn't register for the person I'm talking to.
> > Version numbers after all give useful information - the version, where
> > in the sequence it fell, etc. Big cat names tell you very nothing unless
> > you already remember all the rest. Big cat names or place names are
> > cute. But not useful for anything but marketing. Version numbers are
> > real useful information.
> > 
> > I've been in many a discussion where big cat names are used and there is
> > confusion as to where in the sequence each lies (most often with
> > non-geeks). No such trouble with version numbers. Version numbers are
> > logical, but unattractive marketing-wise.
> > 
> > That's my experience and personal take on the matter.
> 
> That seems sensible to me. The number, e.g. 10.6.8, puts the OS version
> in the context of preceding and succeeding versions. There is no such
> logic or connection with the names. 
> 
> Mavericks as an OS version name is kind of a shrug for me. It means 
> something to California and to surfing communities, I guess, but it has
> no context for anyone else. It looks a bit dead-endish from here. I'll
> stick with the numbers.
> 
> bill

I guess Leopard and Snow Leopard gave a clue, but other than that - nup.
Even I sometimes forgot and still forget 10.4 is Tiger and 10.3 was
Panther. Don't even bother quizzing me on the big cat names before the
code names because official marketing names, heh :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 8:43:05 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 29.10.2013 22:27, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
> >>> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
> >>> and your new message only quotes the selected text.
> >>
> >> Wow! that is really cool ;-)
> >>
> >> Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.
> >>
> >> ??? ????? �??'? ?????? ??��???...
> >> ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >
> > MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
> > well for email many years ago.
> >
> Dear Jamie,
> I did not post that:
> "??? ????? �??'? ?????? ??��???...
> ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????."
> but
> "But thoth can't handle unicode...
> that is not acceptable in the 21 st century. "
> written in non-ascii unicode.
> Apparently your MacSOUP is badly distorting unicode characters also.

I'm only seeing a lot of ???'s, yeah. But in English language groups
Unicode isn't necessary, nor completely supported by older clients many
still use, not just MacSOUP. Really it's best to simply use one of the
standard western roman encodings that everyone's apps can decode.
Unicode hasn't such wonderful benefits anyone needs it in plain text
only groups. How many additional chracters and scripts does one need in
plain English text? Not _that_ many I reckon. It's nice, but completely
unecessary :-)

Of course it would be nice if everything had full Unicode support. But
it's reality we must deal with :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 9:01:42 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
> >
> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> >>   Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >
> > MacSOUP ?
> >
> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> >
> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
> Unicode.
> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
> If you can't read that:
> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
> Laszlo

It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
client old or new supports perfectly well. I'm not moving from MacSOUP
just because you feel using an older western roman encoding is somehow
beneath you :-)

Use what works for everyone, I say, unless it holds you back somehow.
And how is lack of full support for Unicode everywhere holding you back?
If that's an issue, I'd say you've bigger problems in your life :-) Just
sayin'... Not trying to give offence.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 9:01:44 AM
On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 29.10.2013 22:27, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
>>>>> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
>>>>> and your new message only quotes the selected text.
>>>>
>>>> Wow! that is really cool ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.
>>>>
>>>> ??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
>>>> ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>
>>> MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
>>> well for email many years ago.
>>>
>> Dear Jamie,
>> I did not post that:
>> "??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
>> ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????."
>> but
>> "But thoth can't handle unicode...
>> that is not acceptable in the 21 st century. "
>> written in non-ascii unicode.
>> Apparently your MacSOUP is badly distorting unicode characters also.
>
> I'm only seeing a lot of ???'s, yeah. But in English language groups
> Unicode isn't necessary, nor completely supported by older clients many
> still use, not just MacSOUP. Really it's best to simply use one of the
> standard western roman encodings that everyone's apps can decode.
> Unicode hasn't such wonderful benefits anyone needs it in plain text
> only groups. How many additional chracters and scripts does one need in
> plain English text? Not _that_ many I reckon. It's nice, but completely
> unecessary :-)
>
> Of course it would be nice if everything had full Unicode support. But
> it's reality we must deal with :-)
>
It's just required by RFC 3977:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977#page-105

"   This specification extends NNTP from US-ASCII [ANSI1986] to UTF-8
[RFC3629].  Except in the two areas discussed below, UTF-8 (which is
a superset of US-ASCII) is mandatory, and implementations MUST NOT
use any other encoding. "



-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 12:04:12 PM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> writes:
> On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

>> Of course it would be nice if everything had full Unicode support. But
>> it's reality we must deal with :-)
>
> It's just required by RFC 3977:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977#page-105
>
> "   This specification extends NNTP from US-ASCII [ANSI1986] to UTF-8
> [RFC3629].  Except in the two areas discussed below, UTF-8 (which is
> a superset of US-ASCII) is mandatory, and implementations MUST NOT
> use any other encoding. "

I don’t think that’s intended to require UTF-8 in articles, since 3977
specifies a transfer protocol, not the article format.  See also the
bullet further down about the character set of articles.

The real source of the (sometimes unmet) requirement for UTF-8 support
in newsreaders is simply that people are posting using it.  It’s one of
the top encodings, within the sample of Usenet I that monitor:

  http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/spoolstats/charsets.html

-- 
http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/
0
rjk (534)
10/30/2013 12:11:55 PM
On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
>>> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
>>> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
>>>
>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>>>>    Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>>>
>>> MacSOUP ?
>>>
>>> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
>>>
>> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
>> Unicode.
>> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
>> If you can't read that:
>> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
>> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
>> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
>> Laszlo
>
> It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> client old or new supports perfectly well. I'm not moving from MacSOUP
> just because you feel using an older western roman encoding is somehow
> beneath you :-)
>
> Use what works for everyone, I say, unless it holds you back somehow.
> And how is lack of full support for Unicode everywhere holding you back?
> If that's an issue, I'd say you've bigger problems in your life :-) Just
> sayin'... Not trying to give offence.
>
RFC 3977 rules.
But you won't be jailed if you are using a non-compliant software.

Just be aware of it, and if you accept to see "weird" characters from 
time to time it's OK.
At least now, you are knowing that -in that case- the "culprit" is 
sitting in front of your keyboard.

(◕_◕)┌∩┐
-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 12:14:52 PM
On 30.10.2013 13:11, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> I don’t think that’s intended to require UTF-8 in articles,

Full Ack! But the Usenet reader should decodeUTF-8 articles correctly 
and -eve more important- to quote them correctly.
If -like MacSOUP it returns tons of ???, that might be unequivocal and 
will immediately be understood as an expression of its inability to 
decode, but "good old" MTNW and its half clone Thoth just returns 
*something else instead* and then it is a clear violation of RFC rules!

By the way: you are allowed to listen to FM-Radio in Mono as well...

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 12:27:58 PM
In message <1lbk2pn.1qawsvr1aflc0vN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:

>> In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
>>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> 
>> > In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>> >   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> > > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
>> > >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>> > >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>> > >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> > >> > > 
>> > >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
>> > >> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
>> > >> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
>> > >> > > silly codenames fit.
>> > >> > 
>> > >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
>> > >> >  people to keep track of than a number.
>> > >> 
>> > >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
>> > >> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
>> > >> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
>> > >> 
>> > >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
>> > 
>> > > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
>> > > random silly names.
>> > 
>> > First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
>> > more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
>> > number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
>> > true for some abnormal people.
>> 
>> I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each
>> big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been
>> running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me;
>> I don't have to think about it.
>> 
>> My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6,
>> but not the .8 part. 
>> 
>> I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to
>> assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.
>> 
>> bill

> I know I usually think of the version number first, then try to remember
> the big cat name if that doesn't register for the person I'm talking to.
> Version numbers after all give useful information - the version, where
> in the sequence it fell, etc. Big cat names tell you very nothing unless
> you already remember all the rest. Big cat names or place names are
> cute. But not useful for anything but marketing. Version numbers are
> real useful information.

> I've been in many a discussion where big cat names are used and there is
> confusion as to where in the sequence each lies (most often with
> non-geeks).

Right. Just like I said, normal people remember the NAME, not the
number.


-- 
The fact is that camels are far more intelligent than dolphins.
Footnote: Never trust a species that grins all the time. It's up to
something. --Pyramids
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 12:39:57 PM
In message <301020131936128878%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <billvan-57FF32.16285329102013@news.shawcable.net>, bill van
> <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>> In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
>>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> > In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>> >   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> > > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
>> > >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>> > >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
>> > >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>> > >> > > 
>> > >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's much
>> > >> > > easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS X 10.6",
>> > >> > > rather than trying to figure out where in the timeline the different
>> > >> > > silly codenames fit.
>> > >> > 
>> > >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much easier for
>> > >> >  people to keep track of than a number.
>> > >> 
>> > >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped from
>> > >> 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and now maybe
>> > >> waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again. 
>> > >> 
>> > >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
>> > 
>> > > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
>> > > random silly names.
>> > 
>> > First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
>> > more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
>> > number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
>> > true for some abnormal people.
>> 
>> I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each 
>> big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been 
>> running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me; 
>> I don't have to think about it.
>> 
>> My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6, 
>> but not the .8 part. 
>> 
>> I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to 
>> assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.

> Don't worry. Lewis is a dimbulb geek who thinks absolutely everyone
> else does what he and his five geeky friends do (which is why the
> numbnut is in my killfile). :-\

Yay!

But no, I was not describing what I do, or any geeks do. I was
describing what normal everyday non-geeks do. The sort of people who
call me up and say "when I try to send mail it doesn't work" and don't
mention their computer isn't even turned on.

Geeks, obviously, use version numbers.

-- 
I WILL NOT BARF UNLESS I'M SICK Bart chalkboard Ep. 8F15
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 12:42:28 PM
On Mer 30 octobre 2013 (13:14),
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> (◕_◕)┌∩┐

What a nice smiley (i'm sure you did it because Jamie's newsreader 
won't be able to displays it) :p

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/30/2013 12:42:54 PM
In article <l4qt7t$gf0$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> >>> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> >>> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (�crivait) :
> >>>
> >>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> >>>>    Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >>>
> >>> MacSOUP ?
> >>>
> >>> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> >>>
> >> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
> >> Unicode.
> >> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
> >> If you can't read that:
> >> ?????? �??�? � ???? ?????????? �?? ?????? ??��???...
> >> ???????�?? ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????.
> >> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
> >> Laszlo
> >
> > It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> > support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> > client old or new supports perfectly well. I'm not moving from MacSOUP
> > just because you feel using an older western roman encoding is somehow
> > beneath you :-)
> >
> > Use what works for everyone, I say, unless it holds you back somehow.
> > And how is lack of full support for Unicode everywhere holding you back?
> > If that's an issue, I'd say you've bigger problems in your life :-) Just
> > sayin'... Not trying to give offence.
> >
> RFC 3977 rules.
> But you won't be jailed if you are using a non-compliant software.
> 
> Just be aware of it, and if you accept to see "weird" characters from 
> time to time it's OK.
> At least now, you are knowing that -in that case- the "culprit" is 
> sitting in front of your keyboard.
> 
> (?_?)???

IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
that can deal with it.

And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
those that have no need for UTF-8 support.

But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/30/2013 12:45:25 PM
In message <1lbkqbf.14r6lsg19nu7j9N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
>> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
>> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
>> >
>> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> >>   Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>> >
>> > MacSOUP ?
>> >
>> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
>> >
>> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
>> Unicode.
>> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
>> If you can't read that:
>> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
>> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
>> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
>> Laszlo

> It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> client old or new supports perfectly well.

UTF-8 is the standard for USENET. If you can't post in it, then post
in ASCII. But if you can't QUOTE it properly, then you're breaking it
for everyone else.

> I'm not moving from MacSOUP just because you feel using an older
> western roman encoding is somehow beneath you :-)

It's *wrong*.

-- 
"He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."
Winston Churchill
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 1:00:43 PM
On 30.10.2013 13:45, Lloyd wrote:

> IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
> issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
> that can deal with it.
>
> And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
> those that have no need for UTF-8 support.
>
> But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)
>
At least as fun as is is for another famous troll to declare newsreaders 
unable to open a variant of links broken across in a matter only 
generated by MTNW as being inferior and non-compliant.
While MTNW and  it's half clone Thoth are themseves non compliant in 
their inability to work with UTF-8 correctly.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 1:48:24 PM
On 30.10.2013 13:42, Matt wrote:
> On Mer 30 octobre 2013 (13:14),
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> (◕_◕)┌∩┐
>
> What a nice smiley (i'm sure you did it because Jamie's newsreader
> won't be able to displays it) :p
>
Score 100%

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 1:49:31 PM
In article <l4r2n9$3cb$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> > IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
> > issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
> > that can deal with it.
> >
> > And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
> > those that have no need for UTF-8 support.
> >
> > But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)
> >
>  At least as fun as is is for another famous troll to declare newsreaders
>  unable to open a variant of links broken across in a matter only
>  generated by MTNW as being inferior and non-compliant.
>  While MTNW and  it's half clone Thoth are themseves non compliant in
>  their inability to work with UTF-8 correctly.

Michel keeps lying about that as usual. How long have you kept this lie 
going, Michel? a year? Maybe...



--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/30/2013 1:54:43 PM
On 30.10.2013 14:54, Sandman wrote:
> In article <l4r2n9$3cb$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>>> IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
>>> issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
>>> that can deal with it.
>>>
>>> And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
>>> those that have no need for UTF-8 support.
>>>
>>> But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)
>>>
>>   At least as fun as is is for another famous troll to declare newsreaders
>>   unable to open a variant of links broken across in a matter only
>>   generated by MTNW as being inferior and non-compliant.
>>   While MTNW and  it's half clone Thoth are themseves non compliant in
>>   their inability to work with UTF-8 correctly.
>
> Michel keeps lying about that as usual. How long have you kept this lie
> going, Michel? a year? Maybe...
>
Your reality check, Sandman, shows far below below zero as usual. You 
should consult a physician.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/30/2013 2:05:19 PM
Lewis wrote:

>
> Geeks, obviously, use version numbers.
>

Which RFC is that in?

:-)

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 6:23:06 PM
Your Name wrote:

> In article <slrnl6uich.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> Ԥrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:25:10 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>> >  Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
>> >  going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
>> >  screw up many computer sorting systems.
>> > 
>> >  They should have simply done the obvious and called it Mac OS X 1, Mac
>> >  OS X 2, Mac OS X 3, etc.
>> 
>> Sorry, I don't get that. Why would Mac OS X 10 vs. Mac OS X 1 sort any
>> better than MacOS 10.1 vs MacOS 10.10?
> <snip> 
>
> Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
> separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
> there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".

I hate to point this out, because where I live I've always heard it as
the letter "X", but try this in Terminal with the sound turned on:

say "OS X 10.10"

> Not having it would simply make the name less cumbersome ... unless
> Apple is planning NOT to have "Mac OS X 10.10" and instead move to "Mac
> OS Y 1.0" or "Mac OS XI 1.0".   ;-)

OS ten ten point ten according to what "say" says !!!???!!!

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 6:32:32 PM
nospam wrote:

> In article <slrnl6uonh.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Don't know what they are up to, but they might use hex as well: 
>> MacOS 10.6
>> MacOS 10.9
>> MacOS 10.A
>> MacOS 10.F
>
> nothing like confusing everyone but geeks, and what do you do after
> 10.f?

Why stop at f?  We moved from 16 bit machines some time ago...

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 6:33:37 PM
Wes Groleau wrote:

> On 10-27-2013, 12:41, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>
> There will never be a consensus on that one.
>
> I still like Thunderbird.  Tried every other free one I've heard of, and 
> Thunderbird is the best FOR ME.
>

The surprise in the bunch for me is a WIndows newsreader I first used in
1995.  I thought it had hit the open source graveyard but someone got it
working.  A bit clunky in operation by today's standards but it's got
great search functionality.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 6:39:01 PM
In article <0vv7ka-vao.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> I hate to point this out, because where I live I've always heard it as
> the letter "X", but try this in Terminal with the sound turned on:
> 
> say "OS X 10.10"

It works in Applescript editor too.
0
michelle14 (19004)
10/30/2013 7:00:13 PM
Lloyd E Parsons wrote:

> On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:
>
>> In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
>> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
>> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
>> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
>
> I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I 
> generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For 
> larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.

I'd like an option and maybe an intelligent one that could be toggled by
a shortcut key.

Short message -> position at bottom
Long message -> position at or near top ready for snipping

The definition of short or long would need to be customisable, and of
course depends on how many lines fit into your compose pane/window.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 7:02:50 PM
Your Name wrote:

> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
> and your new message only quotes the selected text.
>

MT-NW can do that but it's not so easy to get the attributions correct
when you do that.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 7:04:13 PM
Jolly Roger wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>>
>> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
>> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
>> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
>
> I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> client.
>
> I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> IMO.

Reading the slrn documentation I see it has an offline capability with
slpull.  It seemed that once most people climbed onto broadband
they forgot just how handy offline capability can be.

Offline capability is still darn useful in this world of mobile devices.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/30/2013 7:11:24 PM
In message <0vv7ka-vao.ln1@news.chingola.ch> 
  Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> Your Name wrote:

>> In article <slrnl6uich.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
>> Ԥrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:25:10 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>>> >  Of course, the problem with Apple's 10.Y numbering system is what is
>>> >  going to come next? 10.10? It would work for humans, but it's going to
>>> >  screw up many computer sorting systems.
>>> > 
>>> >  They should have simply done the obvious and called it Mac OS X 1, Mac
>>> >  OS X 2, Mac OS X 3, etc.
>>> 
>>> Sorry, I don't get that. Why would Mac OS X 10 vs. Mac OS X 1 sort any
>>> better than MacOS 10.1 vs MacOS 10.10?
>> <snip> 
>>
>> Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
>> separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
>> there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".

> I hate to point this out, because where I live I've always heard it as
> the letter "X", but try this in Terminal with the sound turned on:

> say "OS X 10.10"

Apple has *always* said "Oh Ess Ten". I have *always* said "Oh Ess Ex"

> OS ten ten point ten according to what "say" says !!!???!!!

Yes, that would be correct.

-- 
"He is simply a shiver looking for a spine to run up." - Paul Keating
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 7:43:59 PM
In article <qn18ka-blo.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:
> >
> >> In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
> >> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
> >> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
> >> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
> >
> > I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I 
> > generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For 
> > larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.
> 
> I'd like an option and maybe an intelligent one that could be toggled by
> a shortcut key.
> 
> Short message -> position at bottom
> Long message -> position at or near top ready for snipping
> 
> The definition of short or long would need to be customisable, and of
> course depends on how many lines fit into your compose pane/window.

From my conversations with Brian, I don't think he's going to change
that in Thoth.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/30/2013 7:44:30 PM
In article <s728ka-kno.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Jolly Roger wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-10-27, Michelle Steiner <email@michelle> wrote:
> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
> >>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >>
> >> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> >> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> >> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> >
> > I felt like Unison was lacking as well. Lots of folks here like MacSOUP.
> > Wasn't Thoth created with stolen code, or something to that effect?
> > There's no way in hell you could convince me to switch to a Windows news
> > client.
> >
> > I'm loving slrn with vim as a replacement, so far. I'm very much a power
> > user though, and am very comfortable using command-line tools. But if
> > power features are what you appreciate, slrn is definitely worth a look,
> > IMO.
> 
> Reading the slrn documentation I see it has an offline capability with
> slpull.  It seemed that once most people climbed onto broadband
> they forgot just how handy offline capability can be.
> 
> Offline capability is still darn useful in this world of mobile devices.

That's why I use it on my iPad.  Otherwise, I prefer live interaction.

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
10/30/2013 7:45:26 PM
Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:
> >
> >> In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
> >> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
> >> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
> >> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
> >
> > I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I
> > generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For
> > larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.
> 
> I'd like an option and maybe an intelligent one that could be toggled by
> a shortcut key.
> 
> Short message -> position at bottom
> Long message -> position at or near top ready for snipping
> 
> The definition of short or long would need to be customisable, and of
> course depends on how many lines fit into your compose pane/window.

I just click with my mouse, and don't seem to have suffered for it over
the decades.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 7:52:40 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lbk2pn.1qawsvr1aflc0vN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > bill van <billvan@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> >> In article <slrnl70agp.16qu.g.kreme@jaka.local>,
> >>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > In message <291020131825107266%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >> >   Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> >> > > In article <slrnl6ugfn.37j.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> >> > >rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> > >> On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 01:43:48 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
> >> > >> >  In message <291020131329139978%YourName@YourISP.com> 
> >> > >> >    Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > > 
> >> > >> > > They should just get rid of the silly names completely. It's
> >> > >> > > much easier to know that "Mac OS X 10.9" is newer than "Mac OS
> >> > >> > > X 10.6", rather than trying to figure out where in the
> >> > >> > > timeline the different silly codenames fit.
> >> > >> > 
> >> > >> >  The codenames are the names most people know. They are much
> >> > >> >  easier for people to keep track of than a number.
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> I can't. Maybe I'm more the numbers guy, remembering that I jumped
> >> > >> from 6.0.8 via 7.0.1 til 7.6.1 to 10.3, upgrading until 10.6.8 and
> >> > >> now maybe waiting for 10.9.1 to jump in again.
> >> > >> 
> >> > >> Tell me, which one was Capone?
> >> > 
> >> > > Exactly. Most normal people use numbers to indicate a series, not
> >> > > random silly names.
> >> > 
> >> > First, if you ask regular people what OS version they have they are FAR
> >> > more likely to tell you the name than the number. If you press for the
> >> > number, chances are very good they have no idea. Second, this is even
> >> > true for some abnormal people.
> >> 
> >> I must be abnormally abnormal. Within a few months of installing each
> >> big cat OS I've forgotten which cat it was. But 10.6.8, which I've been
> >> running for a couple of years, is top of mind and tip of tongue for me;
> >> I don't have to think about it.
> >> 
> >> My wife, whose iMac runs the same OS, remembered Snow Leopard and 10.6,
> >> but not the .8 part. 
> >> 
> >> I have a feeling that it's a very individual thing and that we tend to
> >> assume that the way we remember it ourselves is the normal way.
> >> 
> >> bill
> 
> > I know I usually think of the version number first, then try to remember
> > the big cat name if that doesn't register for the person I'm talking to.
> > Version numbers after all give useful information - the version, where
> > in the sequence it fell, etc. Big cat names tell you very nothing unless
> > you already remember all the rest. Big cat names or place names are
> > cute. But not useful for anything but marketing. Version numbers are
> > real useful information.
> 
> > I've been in many a discussion where big cat names are used and there is
> > confusion as to where in the sequence each lies (most often with
> > non-geeks).
> 
> Right. Just like I said, normal people remember the NAME, not the
> number.

And suffer confusion as a result :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 7:52:42 PM
In article <qn18ka-blo.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-10-28 13:54:09 +0000, Tim Streater said:
> >
> >> In article <281020130811320868%lloydp21@live.com>, Lloyd
> >> <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> Well it'd be nice to have it as an option. Personally I also think
> >> stuff should be trimmed to what people are replying to. Nothing more
> >> irritating than to have a long post with a single one-liner at the end.
> >
> > I agree, it would be a nice option to have.  With small messages, I 
> > generally just post at the bottom and that seems the majority.  For 
> > larger ones, I usually (but not always) snip and reply inline.

Me too; always, sometimes to a fault.

> I'd like an option and maybe an intelligent one that could be toggled by
> a shortcut key.
> 
> Short message -> position at bottom
> Long message -> position at or near top ready for snipping

Long message; select what you want to reply to, and that will be what
is quoted; insertion point goes afterwards.

If there are discontiguous sections to be replied to, use copy and
paste for the rest.  No need to quote all and selectively snip in the
reply message.
0
michelle14 (19004)
10/30/2013 7:56:10 PM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 29.10.2013 22:27, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> >>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 28.10.2013 21:09, Your Name wrote:
> >>>>> In Thoth you can select a piece of text and then use the reply function
> >>>>> and your new message only quotes the selected text.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow! that is really cool ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Hmm, but not really new! every decent reader does it.
> >>>>
> >>>> ??? ????? �??'? ?????? ??��???...
> >>>> ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
> >>> well for email many years ago.
> >>>
> >> Dear Jamie,
> >> I did not post that:
> >> "??? ????? �??'? ?????? ??��???...
> >> ???? �? ??? ?��??????? �? ??? ?l ?? �??????."
> >> but
> >> "But thoth can't handle unicode...
> >> that is not acceptable in the 21 st century. "
> >> written in non-ascii unicode.
> >> Apparently your MacSOUP is badly distorting unicode characters also.
> >
> > I'm only seeing a lot of ???'s, yeah. But in English language groups
> > Unicode isn't necessary, nor completely supported by older clients many
> > still use, not just MacSOUP. Really it's best to simply use one of the
> > standard western roman encodings that everyone's apps can decode.
> > Unicode hasn't such wonderful benefits anyone needs it in plain text
> > only groups. How many additional chracters and scripts does one need in
> > plain English text? Not _that_ many I reckon. It's nice, but completely
> > unecessary :-)
> >
> > Of course it would be nice if everything had full Unicode support. But
> > it's reality we must deal with :-)
> >
> It's just required by RFC 3977:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3977#page-105
> 
> "   This specification extends NNTP from US-ASCII [ANSI1986] to UTF-8
> [RFC3629].  Except in the two areas discussed below, UTF-8 (which is
> a superset of US-ASCII) is mandatory, and implementations MUST NOT
> use any other encoding. "

Heh, well I'll stick with what always works over what doesn't always
work, for now. I want others to always be able to read my posts. That's
more important to me than following standards and guidelines.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 7:56:33 PM
Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:

> On Mer 30 octobre 2013 (13:14),
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> > (?_?)???
> 
> What a nice smiley (i'm sure you did it because Jamie's newsreader 
> won't be able to displays it) :p

I won't be sacrificing some users ability to read my posts in favour of
having a pointlessly larger number of characters I'll never use in plain
text :-) YMMV. Me - I want people to read my posts. Why make it
harder/impossible for some?

Until all common Usenet clients support full Unicode, that's my take on
the matter.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 8:15:35 PM
Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> In article <l4qt7t$gf0$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
> <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 30.10.2013 10:01, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> > >>> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> > >>> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
> > >>>
> > >>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> > >>>>    Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > >>>
> > >>> MacSOUP ?
> > >>>
> > >>> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> > >>>
> > >> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
> > >> Unicode.
> > >> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
> > >> If you can't read that:
> > >> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
> > >> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
> > >> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
> > >> Laszlo
> > >
> > > It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> > > support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> > > client old or new supports perfectly well. I'm not moving from MacSOUP
> > > just because you feel using an older western roman encoding is somehow
> > > beneath you :-)
> > >
> > > Use what works for everyone, I say, unless it holds you back somehow.
> > > And how is lack of full support for Unicode everywhere holding you back?
> > > If that's an issue, I'd say you've bigger problems in your life :-) Just
> > > sayin'... Not trying to give offence.
> > >
> > RFC 3977 rules.
> > But you won't be jailed if you are using a non-compliant software.
> > 
> > Just be aware of it, and if you accept to see "weird" characters from
> > time to time it's OK.
> > At least now, you are knowing that -in that case- the "culprit" is 
> > sitting in front of your keyboard.
> > 
> > (?_?)???
> 
> IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
> issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
> that can deal with it.
> 
> And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
> those that have no need for UTF-8 support.
> 
> But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)

Sure, life wouldn't be worth living without something to get grumpy
about ;-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 8:15:36 PM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 30.10.2013 13:45, Lloyd wrote:
> 
> > IOW, for the vast majority of usenet participants, UTF-8 is not an
> > issue at all.  For those that have the need there are usenet clients
> > that can deal with it.
> >
> > And it is more of an issue for trollish purposes than real value for
> > those that have no need for UTF-8 support.
> >
> > But it is fun to have something to bitch about, huh?  :)
> >
> At least as fun as is is for another famous troll to declare newsreaders
> unable to open a variant of links broken across in a matter only 
> generated by MTNW as being inferior and non-compliant.
> While MTNW and  it's half clone Thoth are themseves non compliant in 
> their inability to work with UTF-8 correctly.

Gah! *forms cross with hands* Not that again :-D I never could
understand how having to take two seconds selecting the broken URL,
copying it, then and editing out lines/spaces/quotes in the middle was
worth so much toxic bitching...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 8:15:37 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lbkqbf.14r6lsg19nu7j9N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> >> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> >> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
> >> >
> >> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> >> >>   Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >> >
> >> > MacSOUP ?
> >> >
> >> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> >> >
> >> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
> >> Unicode.
> >> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
> >> If you can't read that:
> >> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
> >> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
> >> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
> >> Laszlo
> 
> > It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> > support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> > client old or new supports perfectly well.
> 
> UTF-8 is the standard for USENET. If you can't post in it, then post
> in ASCII. But if you can't QUOTE it properly, then you're breaking it
> for everyone else.
> 
> > I'm not moving from MacSOUP just because you feel using an older
> > western roman encoding is somehow beneath you :-)
> 
> It's *wrong*.

*gasp* Oh no! It's... WRONG!

Well somehow myself and others using clients without full Unicode
support manage to make it through life, horribly maimed as we are by
only having 256 characters at our disposal in a plain text environment.
The real tragedy unfolds though, when we prevent others from being able
to fully express themselves with smily face characters, a few chinese
glyphs, and some dingbat style stuff, etc.

We're holding you hostage with our antiquated software. OMG! Is that a
drone circling in on me?!? I'M NOT A TERRORIST! JUST MISUNDERSTOOD!!!
(except by anyone trying to read _my_ posts, which they can always read
without impediment...)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/30/2013 8:15:39 PM
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 20:02:50 +0100, Paul Sture wrote:
>  I'd like an option and maybe an intelligent one that could be toggled by
>  a shortcut key.
> 
>  Short message -> position at bottom
>  Long message -> position at or near top ready for snipping
> 
>  The definition of short or long would need to be customisable, and of
>  course depends on how many lines fit into your compose pane/window.

The intelligent option is to delete stuff that you don't need. 
The usual way to review something is to read from top to bottom.

Thus I'm glad that my editor always starts at top.

The non intelligent option is the fullquote - obviously the preferred
one.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/30/2013 8:18:48 PM
In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> said:
> > On 2013-10-28 15:16:28 +0000, Erilar said:
> > 
> >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> > 
> > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> > 
> >> Did they run out of cats?
> > 
> > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
> 
> I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

Or "Cougar." Or "Ocelot."

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
dfmanno (398)
10/30/2013 8:44:45 PM
On Mer 30 octobre 2013 (21:15),
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Why make it harder/impossible for some?

Only Laszlo can answer such a question :)

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/30/2013 9:32:02 PM
In message <dfmanno-89641F.16444530102013@news.albasani.net> 
  D.F. Manno <dfmanno@mail.com> wrote:
> In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>> Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> said:
>> > On 2013-10-28 15:16:28 +0000, Erilar said:
>> > 
>> >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
>> > 
>> > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
>> > 
>> >> Did they run out of cats?
>> > 
>> > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
>> 
>> I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)

> Or "Cougar."

0% chance they would ever use that one.

> Or "Ocelot."

Ocelot was always the name of the next unreleased version :)

-- 
In the 60's, people took acid to make the world appear weird. Now the
world is weird and people take Prozac to make it appear normal.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 11:22:05 PM
In message <slrnl72qd8.4nf.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
  Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> The intelligent option is to delete stuff that you don't need. 
> The usual way to review something is to read from top to bottom.

> Thus I'm glad that my editor always starts at top.

A: You're wrong
Q: I've never found that to be true
A: Because it make following messages more difficult
Q: Why is top-posting evil?


-- 
"I'm just like every modern woman trying to have it all. A loving
husband, a family. I only wish I had more time to seek out the dark
forces and join their hellish crusade."
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 11:24:20 PM
In message <1lbll8q.sm5jc4p4e5ecN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <1lbkqbf.14r6lsg19nu7j9N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> >> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
>> >> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
>> >> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
>> >> >
>> >> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>> >> >>   Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
>> >> >
>> >> > MacSOUP ?
>> >> >
>> >> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
>> >> >
>> >> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
>> >> Unicode.
>> >> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
>> >> If you can't read that:
>> >> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
>> >> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
>> >> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
>> >> Laszlo
>> 
>> > It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
>> > support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
>> > client old or new supports perfectly well.
>> 
>> UTF-8 is the standard for USENET. If you can't post in it, then post
>> in ASCII. But if you can't QUOTE it properly, then you're breaking it
>> for everyone else.
>> 
>> > I'm not moving from MacSOUP just because you feel using an older
>> > western roman encoding is somehow beneath you :-)
>> 
>> It's *wrong*.

> *gasp* Oh no! It's... WRONG!

> Well somehow myself and others using clients without full Unicode
> support manage to make it through life,

Yes, just like the blue-hairs who drive 41 miles an hour in the left
lane of the Interstate with their right blinker on the entire time,
by fucking things up for everyone else.


-- 
Well I've seen the Heart of Darkness/Read the writing on the wall/an the
voice out in the desert/Was the voice out in the hall
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/30/2013 11:36:23 PM
In article <dfmanno-89641F.16444530102013@news.albasani.net>, D.F.
Manno <dfmanno@mail.com> wrote:

> In article <2013102808574249220-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
> > Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> said:
> > > On 2013-10-28 15:16:28 +0000, Erilar said:
> > > 
> > >> Is Mavericks a new OS?
> > > 
> > > Yes.  It's OS X 10.9
> > > 
> > >> Did they run out of cats?
> > > 
> > > Apparently so, according to what they said at the WWDC in June.
> > 
> > I guess they missed "Civet". ;-)
> 
> Or "Cougar." Or "Ocelot."

Technically a Cougar and a Mountain Lion are the same animal, so they
could use Cougar for a very minor update to Mountain Lion, but not
really for a full version number update.  :-)
0
yourname3 (802)
10/31/2013 12:15:53 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lbll8q.sm5jc4p4e5ecN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> >> In message <1lbkqbf.14r6lsg19nu7j9N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
> >>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> >> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> >> On 29.10.2013 10:10, J.P. Kuypers wrote:
> >> >> > In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> >> >> > Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (écrivait) :
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on
> >> >> >> Mavericks? Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > MacSOUP ?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> They should not. They should get a decent software that does not distort
> >> >> Unicode.
> >> >> Thoth isn't qualifying either, by the way.
> >> >> If you can't read that:
> >> >> ?????? ç??ç? ìƒ ???? ?????????? ç?? ?????? ??ìç???...
> >> >> ???????ì?? ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
> >> >> You should strongly consider getting a current newsreader.
> >> >> Laszlo
> >> 
> >> > It's not like there aren't character encodings other than Unicode that
> >> > support accented characters and the like, that virtually every Usenet
> >> > client old or new supports perfectly well.
> >> 
> >> UTF-8 is the standard for USENET. If you can't post in it, then post
> >> in ASCII. But if you can't QUOTE it properly, then you're breaking it
> >> for everyone else.
> >> 
> >> > I'm not moving from MacSOUP just because you feel using an older
> >> > western roman encoding is somehow beneath you :-)
> >> 
> >> It's *wrong*.
> 
> > *gasp* Oh no! It's... WRONG!
> 
> > Well somehow myself and others using clients without full Unicode
> > support manage to make it through life,
> 
> Yes, just like the blue-hairs who drive 41 miles an hour in the left
> lane of the Interstate with their right blinker on the entire time,
> by fucking things up for everyone else.

Knowing how you depend on those hundreds of obscure extra characters and
glyphs to fully express yourself and feel validated as a person, I now
offer you my deepest sympathies for fucking up your life up so
horrendously.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/31/2013 12:18:06 AM
In article <0vv7ka-vao.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
 Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Your Name wrote:
> 
> > Sorry, I didn't mean it would sort any better (which is why it's a
> > separate paragraph), just that there's a superfluous extra "10" in
> > there all the time - despite it meant ot be pronounced as "Ex".
> 
> I hate to point this out, because where I live I've always heard it as
> the letter "X", but try this in Terminal with the sound turned on:
> 
> say "OS X 10.10"
> 
> > Not having it would simply make the name less cumbersome ... unless
> > Apple is planning NOT to have "Mac OS X 10.10" and instead move to "Mac
> > OS Y 1.0" or "Mac OS XI 1.0".   ;-)
> 
> OS ten ten point ten according to what "say" says !!!???!!!

I get "oh ess ten ten point one zero"

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
dfmanno (398)
10/31/2013 1:53:40 AM
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 23:24:20 +0000 (UTC), Lewis wrote:
>  In message <slrnl72qd8.4nf.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de> 
>    Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> > The intelligent option is to delete stuff that you don't need. 
> > The usual way to review something is to read from top to bottom.
> 
> > Thus I'm glad that my editor always starts at top.
> 
>  A: You're wrong
>  Q: I've never found that to be true
>  A: Because it make following messages more difficult
>  Q: Why is top-posting evil?

Hey, I never told anyone to use TOFU!

(that's its nickname in Germany: 
Text oben (above),
Fullquote unten (below)
.... and tofu is Tofu, too)

The local practise is to delete the fullquote if you do not quote
anything of it, but just write your text above. 

But for inline quoting it's best to start reading at the top, isn't it?

BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
it's called a quote *line*.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/31/2013 5:25:49 AM
On 30.10.2013 22:32, Matt wrote:
> On Mer 30 octobre 2013 (21:15),
> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>
>> Why make it harder/impossible for some?
>
> Only Laszlo can answer such a question :)
>
....and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
(ツ)
-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 6:00:12 AM
On 31.10.2013 01:18, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

> Knowing how you depend on those hundreds of obscure extra characters and
> glyphs to fully express yourself and feel validated as a person, ...
>
the billions of chinese, thai, japanese, korean, arab, jews, russians, 
greek, laotians etc... will appreciate your statement.
;-)


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 6:09:19 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 31.10.2013 01:18, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
> > Knowing how you depend on those hundreds of obscure extra characters and
> > glyphs to fully express yourself and feel validated as a person, ...
> >
> the billions of chinese, thai, japanese, korean, arab, jews, russians,
> greek, laotians etc... will appreciate your statement.
> ;-)

Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
outside of their older encodings.

So I guess you must mean they'll also appreciate using older more
supported encodings to be able to be read by all, as we do. Yes :-)

I'm glad you agree with me so thourghly. But mine was a logical
argument, and despite your being human, I knew logic would win in the
end :-)

-- 
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the
subject."
 - Sir Winston Churchill
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/31/2013 7:51:49 AM
On 31.10.2013 08:51, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
> and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
> understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
> outside of their older encodings.

You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware 
software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better 
refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older 
one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 8:29:56 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 31.10.2013 08:51, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
> > and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
> > understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
> > outside of their older encodings.
> 
> You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
> Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
> You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware 
> software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
> refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
> one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.

Or you'll come frown at me till I give up using MacSOUP? Will you also
appear by all the other considerable number of users of the various
clients that don't fully support Unicode? And will your disapproving
frown be enough to dissuade us? Maybe you'd better tell us we're wrong
and have long since been wrong, and repeat that a few times in a shrill
voice, as the frown might not be enough. Perhaps also some dramatic
music to underline your point? Hey, you could construct a diorama to
better illustrate this brave new reality to us. I find physical aids
quite helpful during presentations.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/31/2013 9:07:40 AM
In article <l4t4e4$4cl$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> > Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
> > and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
> > understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
> > outside of their older encodings.
>
>  You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
>  Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
>  You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
>  software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
>  refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
>  one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.

Michel says, using the least standards-compliant software known to mankind: 
Thunderbird.

Haha!


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/31/2013 10:12:01 AM
On 31.10.2013 10:07, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>> You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
>> Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
>> You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
>> software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
>> refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
>> one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.
>
> Or you'll come frown at me till I give up using MacSOUP? Will you also
> appear by all the other considerable number of users of the various
> clients that don't fully support Unicode? And will your disapproving
> frown be enough to dissuade us? Maybe you'd better tell us we're wrong
> and have long since been wrong, and repeat that a few times in a shrill
> voice, as the frown might not be enough. Perhaps also some dramatic
> music to underline your point? Hey, you could construct a diorama to
> better illustrate this brave new reality to us. I find physical aids
> quite helpful during presentations.
>
You don't seen to have understood what I said:
You are free to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
software, we don't care of what old buggy you drive!
But *please don't recommend it to others asking for a honest advice...*

By the way: which are the current "various clients that don't fully 
support Unicode" from which you have been speaking?
Excepted MTNW(rip), his half-clone Thoth and MacSOUP, i'm not aware on 
others, which are not abandonware from the last century.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 11:07:55 AM
In article <l4tdmb$3j4$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> > Or you'll come frown at me till I give up using MacSOUP? Will you also
> > appear by all the other considerable number of users of the various
> > clients that don't fully support Unicode? And will your disapproving
> > frown be enough to dissuade us? Maybe you'd better tell us we're wrong
> > and have long since been wrong, and repeat that a few times in a shrill
> > voice, as the frown might not be enough. Perhaps also some dramatic
> > music to underline your point? Hey, you could construct a diorama to
> > better illustrate this brave new reality to us. I find physical aids
> > quite helpful during presentations.
> >
>  You don't seen to have understood what I said:
>  You are free to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
>  software, we don't care of what old buggy you drive!
>  But *please don't recommend it to others asking for a honest advice...*
> 
>  By the way: which are the current "various clients that don't fully 
>  support Unicode" from which you have been speaking?
>  Excepted MTNW(rip), his half-clone Thoth and MacSOUP, i'm not aware on 
>  others, which are not abandonware from the last century.

When it comes to standards-compliance, we're still stuck with old obsolete 
and buggy software such as Mozilla Thunderbord though.




-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
10/31/2013 11:17:50 AM
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:07:55 +0100, Laszlo Lebrun wrote:
>  By the way: which are the current "various clients that don't fully 
>  support Unicode" from which you have been speaking?
>  Excepted MTNW(rip), his half-clone Thoth and MacSOUP, i'm not aware on 
>  others, which are not abandonware from the last century.

there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.
0
t-usenet (182)
10/31/2013 11:40:08 AM
On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
> (ツ)

But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/31/2013 12:56:28 PM
In message <l4tk1s$79g$3@talisker.lacave.net> 
  Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>> (ツ)

> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)

I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as obfuscation.

-- 
It is the business of the future to be dangerous.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/31/2013 2:24:08 PM
On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>> (ツ)
>
> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>
That one is working well also:
ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 3:23:16 PM
On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:

> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>> (ツ)
>> 
>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>> 
> That one is working well also:
> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty

Lazlo, from Unison, this is very readable IF I change the default text 
encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you 
sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.

So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/31/2013 3:41:22 PM
Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> observes:

> there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
> broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.

Not to mention the just plain white-space-broken ones.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy22 (785)
10/31/2013 3:52:34 PM
On 31.10.2013 16:41, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
> On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:
>
>> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>>> (ツ)
>>>
>>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>>>
>> That one is working well also:
>> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
>> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty
>
> Lazlo, from Unison,this is very readable IF I change the default text
> encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you
> sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.
>
> So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?
>
Uh! I did not do anything different in both messages. Really not. Sorry 
for not being able to give you a help.

In both cases my charset was declared correctly:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed

Your Unison should not be confused and your default settings should not 
even be relevant.

But who knows the ropes of Unison? Maybe you had defaulted to UTF-8 last 
time as well (this is the recommended setting anyhow).

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
10/31/2013 4:09:54 PM
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 15:52:34 +0000 (UTC), billy@MIX.COM wrote:
>  Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> observes:
> 
> > there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
> > broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.
> 
>  Not to mention the just plain white-space-broken ones.

So now we know that yours is one without full utf-8 support. What kind
is this - a web interface?

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/31/2013 4:12:56 PM
Martin Τrautmann wrote:

> BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
> First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
> help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
> it's called a quote *line*.

Actually the message id is very useful if you use a newsreader which
goes to that message when you click on it.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
10/31/2013 4:18:11 PM
In article <l4tuc2$roh$3@reader2.panix.com>, <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> observes:
> 
> > there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
> > broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.
> 
> Not to mention the just plain white-space-broken ones.

Hmm, looks like Thoth doesn't decode Encoded Words.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
timstreater2 (1190)
10/31/2013 4:41:38 PM
Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> asks:

> So now we know that yours is one without full utf-8 support. What kind
> is this - a web interface?

No, it's tin running on NetBSD, but currently using the
CP1252 charset, which I didn't notice until I posted my
note.  I'll revert to UTF-8 later today...

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy22 (785)
10/31/2013 4:42:45 PM
On 2013-10-31 16:41:38 +0000, Tim Streater said:

> In article <l4tuc2$roh$3@reader2.panix.com>, <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> 
>> Martin =?UTF-8?Q?=CE=A4rautmann?= <t-usenet@gmx.net> observes:
>> 
>>> there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
>>> broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.
>> 
>> Not to mention the just plain white-space-broken ones.
> 
> Hmm, looks like Thoth doesn't decode Encoded Words.

Yep, it doesn't seem to.  Even if I change the view to UTF8.

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
10/31/2013 4:55:07 PM
In article <3fcaka-oj51.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Martin ?rautmann wrote:
> 
> > BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
> > First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
> > help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
> > it's called a quote *line*.
> 
> Actually the message id is very useful if you use a newsreader which
> goes to that message when you click on it.

I agree. Dear oh dear, was that another person seeking to tell us how
to format our replies - following the lead of PointyHead.

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
timstreater2 (1190)
10/31/2013 5:57:35 PM
On 2013-10-31 16:09:54 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

> On 31.10.2013 16:41, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
>> On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:
>> 
>>> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>>>> (ツ)
>>>> 
>>>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>>>> 
>>> That one is working well also:
>>> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
>>> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty
>> 
>> Lazlo, from Unison,this is very readable IF I change the default text
>> encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you
>> sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.
>> 
>> So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?
>> 
> Uh! I did not do anything different in both messages. Really not. Sorry 
> for not being able to give you a help.
> 
> In both cases my charset was declared correctly:
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> Your Unison should not be confused and your default settings should not 
> even be relevant.
> 
> But who knows the ropes of Unison? Maybe you had defaulted to UTF-8 
> last time as well (this is the recommended setting anyhow).

With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is 
the selection at the top of the list. However it has no problem 
decoding UTF-8, and it is best to just change the default to UTF8.

Also if composing in Western (ISO Latin 1), or any other non-compatible 
encoding, and there are UTF-8 characters in part of the message or 
response, Unison will stop the post and warn "This message cannot be 
encoded in the selected encoding. Please choose a compatible encoding". 
The only choice is  UTF-8.
< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_348.jpg >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/31/2013 6:02:29 PM
On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (16:23),
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> That one is working well also:
> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty

Sure but i don't want to let in the dust users using old newsreaders.
I'm not that bad :->

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/31/2013 6:06:23 PM
On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (15:24),
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as obfuscation.

From now on, it has done the trick so i don't see the need of changing 
it ;)

Even the first part in my "From" header is rot13 and so far still no 
spams received (and i really don't believe the ".invalid" part is the 
thing that stop spambots).

I'm not a big poster anyway, just lurking most of the time that might 
explain this.

-- 
&#117;&#115;&#101;&#110;&#101;&#116;&#64;&#116;&#104;&#101;&#108;&#111;
&#115;&#116;&#112;&#108;&#97;&#116;&#121;&#112;&#117;&#115;&#46;&#111;&
#114;&#103;
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/31/2013 6:19:05 PM
On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 17:18:11 +0100, Paul Sture wrote:
>  Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> 
> > BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
> > First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
> > help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
> > it's called a quote *line*.
> 
>  Actually the message id is very useful if you use a newsreader which
>  goes to that message when you click on it.

No need to click, just "go to previous message". 
But maybe that's a matter of taste...
Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
10/31/2013 6:22:25 PM
Paul Sture wrote:
> Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> 
>> BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
>> First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
>> help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
>> it's called a quote *line*.
> 
> Actually the message id is very useful if you use a newsreader which
> goes to that message when you click on it.
> 

Except when you use Thunderbird which thinks all Message-IDs are e-mail
addresses.  Heh.
0
10/31/2013 7:48:33 PM
In message <3fcaka-oj51.ln1@news.chingola.ch> 
  Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> Martin Τrautmann wrote:

>> BTW: you might consider to remove the message id from the quote line.
>> First of all, it's already within the references, second it does not
>> help people to read an ID, generated by a machine, and last not least
>> it's called a quote *line*.

> Actually the message id is very useful if you use a newsreader which
> goes to that message when you click on it.

+1

-- 
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail but a true friend will
be sitting next to you saying, "Dang, that was fun."
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/31/2013 9:26:38 PM
In message <l4u6up$15ln$3@talisker.lacave.net> 
  Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (15:24),
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as obfuscation.

> From now on, it has done the trick so i don't see the need of changing 
> it ;)

> Even the first part in my "From" header is rot13 and so far still no 
> spams received (and i really don't believe the ".invalid" part is the 
> thing that stop spambots).

I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
care about USENET.

-- 
A: You can never go too far. B: If I'm gonna get busted, it is *not*
gonna be by a guy like *that*.
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/31/2013 9:30:34 PM
In message <l4ttn1$2bc$1@dont-email.me> 
  Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:

>> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>>> (ツ)
>>> 
>>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>>> 
>> That one is working well also:
>> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
>> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty

> Lazlo, from Unison, this is very readable IF I change the default text 
> encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you 
> sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.

> So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?

Unison got confused. Lazlo's post (though it didn't need to) clearly
set the encoding to UTF-8.

-- 
Beware of geeks bearing .GIF's
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/31/2013 9:32:19 PM
In message <2013103111022985463-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2013-10-31 16:09:54 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

>> On 31.10.2013 16:41, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
>>> On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:
>>> 
>>>> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>>>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>>>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>>>>> (ツ)
>>>>> 
>>>>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>>>>> 
>>>> That one is working well also:
>>>> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
>>>> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty
>>> 
>>> Lazlo, from Unison,this is very readable IF I change the default text
>>> encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you
>>> sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.
>>> 
>>> So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?
>>> 
>> Uh! I did not do anything different in both messages. Really not. Sorry 
>> for not being able to give you a help.
>> 
>> In both cases my charset was declared correctly:
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>> 
>> Your Unison should not be confused and your default settings should not 
>> even be relevant.
>> 
>> But who knows the ropes of Unison? Maybe you had defaulted to UTF-8 
>> last time as well (this is the recommended setting anyhow).

> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is 
> the selection at the top of the list.

That is the incorrect default, for the record. Unison should fix that.

> However it has no problem decoding UTF-8,

Well, evidently it did in at least one case.


> Also if composing in Western (ISO Latin 1), or any other non-compatible 
> encoding, and there are UTF-8 characters in part of the message or 
> response, Unison will stop the post and warn "This message cannot be 
> encoded in the selected encoding. Please choose a compatible encoding". 

Which it also should not do. It should post in UTF-8. Always.

-- 
Clarke's Law: Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from
magic
0
g.kreme (3671)
10/31/2013 9:34:28 PM
On 2013.10.31, 17:30 , Lewis wrote:
> In message <l4u6up$15ln$3@talisker.lacave.net>
>    Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (15:24),
>> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>>> I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as obfuscation.
>
>>  From now on, it has done the trick so i don't see the need of changing
>> it ;)
>
>> Even the first part in my "From" header is rot13 and so far still no
>> spams received (and i really don't believe the ".invalid" part is the
>> thing that stop spambots).
>
> I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
> care about USENET.

I think the spambots grab all they can but usenet is not the most 
fertile ground... same people / same e-mail addresses.  It's been over 
harvested for over a decade.

-- 
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
                                                 -Ambrose Bierce
0
alan.browne (4546)
10/31/2013 9:37:47 PM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 31.10.2013 10:07, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
> >> Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
> >> You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
> >> software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
> >> refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
> >> one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.
> >
> > Or you'll come frown at me till I give up using MacSOUP? Will you also
> > appear by all the other considerable number of users of the various
> > clients that don't fully support Unicode? And will your disapproving
> > frown be enough to dissuade us? Maybe you'd better tell us we're wrong
> > and have long since been wrong, and repeat that a few times in a shrill
> > voice, as the frown might not be enough. Perhaps also some dramatic
> > music to underline your point? Hey, you could construct a diorama to
> > better illustrate this brave new reality to us. I find physical aids
> > quite helpful during presentations.
> >
> You don't seen to have understood what I said:
> You are free to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
> software, we don't care of what old buggy you drive!
> But *please don't recommend it to others asking for a honest advice...*
> 
> By the way: which are the current "various clients that don't fully 
> support Unicode" from which you have been speaking?
> Excepted MTNW(rip), his half-clone Thoth and MacSOUP, i'm not aware on
> others, which are not abandonware from the last century.

Of course I'll continue to recommend MacSOUP - it's excellent and only
nuts who think Unicode is some kind of law and don't care about others
will create problems, and thankfully you've very rare.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/31/2013 9:52:23 PM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
> the selection at the top of the list.

I wonder if there's a reason for that? ;-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
10/31/2013 9:52:24 PM
On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (22:30),
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
> care about USENET.

They did a long time ago as my older alias were harvested and been 
truly hammered by them.

But as Alan said, not much new address to harvest so for mostly of 
them, they must have moved on.

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
10/31/2013 10:00:37 PM
On 2013-10-31 21:34:28 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <2013103111022985463-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>
>   Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-10-31 16:09:54 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:
> 
>>> On 31.10.2013 16:41, Lloyd E Parsons wrote:
>>>> On 2013-10-31 15:23:16 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 31.10.2013 13:56, Matt wrote:
>>>>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (07:00),
>>>>>> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ...and those obfuscating their sig with regular expressions.
>>>>>>> (ツ)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But it's to confuse spambots of course, nothing more, nothing less :)
>>>>>> 
>>>>> That one is working well also:
>>>>> ӀąՀӀօ.Ӏҽҍɾմղ@ցօօցӀҽʍąìӀ.çօʍ
>>>>> and (as a human) you can read it without difficulty
>>>> 
>>>> Lazlo, from Unison,this is very readable IF I change the default text
>>>> encoding to UTF 8 manually, but it won't automagically do it.  When you
>>>> sent the original posting some time back, Unison did it with no problem.
>>>> 
>>>> So what are you NOT doing when you reply with UTF8?
>>>> 
>>> Uh! I did not do anything different in both messages. Really not. Sorry
>>> for not being able to give you a help.
>>> 
>>> In both cases my charset was declared correctly:
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>> 
>>> Your Unison should not be confused and your default settings should not
>>> even be relevant.
>>> 
>>> But who knows the ropes of Unison? Maybe you had defaulted to UTF-8
>>> last time as well (this is the recommended setting anyhow).
> 
>> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
>> the selection at the top of the list.
> 
> That is the incorrect default, for the record. Unison should fix that.

Agreed. Many times the user has no idea of what is correct and what 
isn't.  UTF-8 should be the developer's default, not a random selection 
from a list.


>> However it has no problem decoding UTF-8,
> 
> Well, evidently it did in at least one case.
> 
> 
>> Also if composing in Western (ISO Latin 1), or any other non-compatible
>> encoding, and there are UTF-8 characters in part of the message or
>> response, Unison will stop the post and warn "This message cannot be
>> encoded in the selected encoding. Please choose a compatible encoding".
> 
> Which it also should not do. It should post in UTF-8. Always.

I guess the user has to know enough to change the default. If not 
Unison has the software shout at them when they screw up.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/31/2013 10:13:16 PM
On 2013-10-31 21:52:24 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
Genet) said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
>> the selection at the top of the list.
> 
> I wonder if there's a reason for that? ;-)

I suspect that is something overlooked by the developer, Panic.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
10/31/2013 10:14:22 PM
On 2013.10.31, 18:00 , Matt wrote:
> But as Alan said, not much new address to harvest so for mostly of
> them, they must have moved on.

Not what I meant.  They probably still comb through, but assuming they 
filter the lists for hits before adding, they keep getting the same 
hits, mostly, on usenet.  The odd new one, they add to their list.

Such bots are cheap to run and tireless.

-- 
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
                                                 -Ambrose Bierce
0
alan.browne (4546)
10/31/2013 10:36:18 PM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-10-31 21:52:24 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
> Genet) said:
> 
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
> >> the selection at the top of the list.
> > 
> > I wonder if there's a reason for that? ;-)
> 
> I suspect that is something overlooked by the developer, Panic.

I dunno for sure without asking, but I'd guess they went with a default
encoding that's most widely supported by English users Usenet clients.
That aint Unicode *shrug*
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/1/2013 1:08:00 AM
In message <l4uju5$1sv5$1@talisker.lacave.net> 
  Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (22:30),
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
>> care about USENET.

> They did a long time ago as my older alias were harvested and been 
> truly hammered by them.

Yes. Even 5 years ago. But not recently.

-- 
I find Windows of absolutely no technical interest... Mac OS X is a rock
-solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer it to Linux. -- Bill Joy
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/1/2013 1:32:09 AM
In message <1lbnkrx.16w08b51ipz601N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
>> the selection at the top of the list.

> I wonder if there's a reason for that? ;-)

It fits in with the broad sweeps of laziness I see in Unison.

-- 
Everything that was magical was just a way of describing the world in
words it couldn't ignore.
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/1/2013 1:33:28 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lbnkrx.16w08b51ipz601N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
> >> With Unison the default as installed is Western (ISO Latin 1) which is
> >> the selection at the top of the list.
> 
> > I wonder if there's a reason for that? ;-)
> 
> It fits in with the broad sweeps of laziness I see in Unison.

Yeah, that must be it.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/1/2013 6:26:08 AM
In article <l4uju5$1sv5$1@talisker.lacave.net>,
 Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:

> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (22:30),
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> > I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
> > care about USENET.
> 
> They did a long time ago as my older alias were harvested and been 
> truly hammered by them.
> 
> But as Alan said, not much new address to harvest so for mostly of 
> them, they must have moved on.

Incorrect.  I use a valid email for everything (ones I can invalidate at 
will) and I assure you that 90% of the spam I get is from Usenet.  
Harvesting does seem irregular, and I expect it is seen as a low-value 
target because of all the obfuscation.

If you have any doubts, just start using a real email address here.  It 
might take a month or two to see the spam start, or you might get 
"lucky" and see it the next day.  Once the address is published, it just 
becomes a waiting game.

-- 
iPhone apps that matter:    http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
    and probably your server, too.
0
Doc
11/1/2013 3:39:33 PM
Lewis wrote:

> In my case, bash, but that's not important. Option clicking on any
> commandline positions the cursor. It appears to also work in Vim (I
> just tried it, have never used it before now).

That is indeed neat.  Thanks for the tip.

> You can select and then paste the selected text using the third mouse
> button, just like the old days in Solaris.

I did with with X11 on VMS too, and very useful it was.

The one catch with X11 on VMS was the default of enabling the mouse in
my then favourite editor.  This would reposition the cursor wherever you
clicked in an editor window and IIRC disabled the kind of selection
available on Solaris you describe.

Yuck!  There was an incantation you could put in your editor startup
to disabled this "feature", but it was difficult to find.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/1/2013 3:48:24 PM
Whiskers wrote:

> On 2013-10-27, Sn!pe <snipe@spambin.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>> [crossposted: csma; nsr]
>>
>> Lets ask them -- this article is crossposted to there.
>> (Followup-To: not set)
>
> Pan
> Knode
> Claws-Mail
> Sylpheed
> Thunderbird

Thanks for that list.

XPN which is Python based also works nicely, though at the moment I am
using it from Linux.  Like Pan and probably Claws-Mail it requires GTK
for OS X, however one gets hold of that (Fink, MacPorts, Brew...?).

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/1/2013 3:55:05 PM
Doc O'Leary <droleary@6usenet2013.subsume.com> wrote:

> In article <l4uju5$1sv5$1@talisker.lacave.net>,
>  Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (22:30),
> > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > 
> > > I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
> > > care about USENET.
> > 
> > They did a long time ago as my older alias were harvested and been 
> > truly hammered by them.
> > 
> > But as Alan said, not much new address to harvest so for mostly of 
> > them, they must have moved on.
> 
> Incorrect.  I use a valid email for everything (ones I can invalidate at
> will) and I assure you that 90% of the spam I get is from Usenet.  
> Harvesting does seem irregular, and I expect it is seen as a low-value
> target because of all the obfuscation.
> 
> If you have any doubts, just start using a real email address here.  It
> might take a month or two to see the spam start, or you might get 
> "lucky" and see it the next day.  Once the address is published, it just
> becomes a waiting game.

I've been using my real email address here for many years and due to
POPfile and now Gmail's spam filter, I never see 99.9% of it, so it's a
non-issue.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/1/2013 9:00:41 PM
In article <slrnl75ivq.c1.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
 Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <l4u6up$15ln$3@talisker.lacave.net> 
>   Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
> > On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (15:24), Lewis 
> > <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> >> I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as 
> >> obfuscation.
> 
> > From now on, it has done the trick so i don't see the need of 
> > changing it ;)
> 
> > Even the first part in my "From" header is rot13 and so far still 
> > no spams received (and i really don't believe the ".invalid" part 
> > is the thing that stop spambots).
> 
> I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots 
> care about USENET.


Usenet's active user base is miniscule.  The action is on Twitter etc.

-- 
And wackiness ensues...
0
timmcn (2339)
11/1/2013 9:43:26 PM
On 31.10.2013 12:40, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2013 12:07:55 +0100, Laszlo Lebrun wrote:
>>   By the way: which are the current "various clients that don't fully
>>   support Unicode" from which you have been speaking?
>>   Excepted MTNW(rip), his half-clone Thoth and MacSOUP, i'm not aware on
>>   others, which are not abandonware from the last century.
>
> there are plenty which lack full support. Just watch the groups for
> broken subjects with special characters, then check who caused it.
>
Currently I am still counting three clients only:
MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
Any one more?

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/2/2013 4:41:30 AM
On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> Any one more?

Maybe Hogwasher can be included.

<https://www.asar.com/hogwasher.html>

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
11/2/2013 1:23:58 PM
On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
>  On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
>  Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> > MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> > Any one more?
> 
>  Maybe Hogwasher can be included.

or tin?

I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/2/2013 1:48:10 PM
On 2013.11.01, 17:43 , Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <slrnl75ivq.c1.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
>   Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> In message <l4u6up$15ln$3@talisker.lacave.net>
>>    Matt <hfrarg@thelostplatypus.org.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Jeu 31 octobre 2013 (15:24), Lewis
>>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>>> I doubt the spambots care. And rot-13 hardly counts as
>>>> obfuscation.
>>
>>>  From now on, it has done the trick so i don't see the need of
>>> changing it ;)
>>
>>> Even the first part in my "From" header is rot13 and so far still
>>> no spams received (and i really don't believe the ".invalid" part
>>> is the thing that stop spambots).
>>
>> I get very little spam from USENET posts. I don't think the spambots
>> care about USENET.
>
>
> Usenet's active user base is miniscule.  The action is on Twitter etc.

It's cheap for bots to scour all sources, usenet included, so I doubt 
the harvesters turn it off.

-- 
"Quotation, n: The act of repeating erroneously the words of another."
                                                 -Ambrose Bierce
0
alan.browne (4546)
11/2/2013 3:02:24 PM
In article <83vcka-15u2.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
 Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Lewis wrote:
> 
> > In my case, bash, but that's not important. Option clicking on any
> > commandline positions the cursor. It appears to also work in Vim (I
> > just tried it, have never used it before now).
> 
> That is indeed neat.  Thanks for the tip.

Yes, thanks, Lewis. Is this documented anywhere? There might be other 
obscure, but useful, shortcuts listed with it.
0
fmoore (1430)
11/2/2013 3:14:56 PM
On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> or tin?

> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.

Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and 
Unicode (both in subject and body). 

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
11/2/2013 3:25:37 PM
On 2013-11-02 15:25:37 +0000, Matt said:

> On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
> Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
>> or tin?
> 
>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> 
> Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
> Unicode (both in subject and body).

Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his 
obsession with UTF8.

-- 
Lloyd

0
lloydp21 (419)
11/2/2013 3:58:32 PM
In article <slrnl7a0kq.8c2.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> > > Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> > > MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> > > Any one more?
> > 
> >  Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
> 
> or tin?
> 
> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.

tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/2/2013 4:12:31 PM
In article <l537f7$vhl$1@dont-email.me>, Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:

> >> or tin?
> >
> >> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> >
> > Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
> > Unicode (both in subject and body).
>
>  Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his
>  obsession with UTF8.

He got really shown up some year ago when it comes to Thunderbird and 
adherence to standards and how buggy it is. He lied a lot about Unicode 
back then and for reasons unknown he is still doing it. I suppose his 
feeling got hurt or something like that.

For reasons I can't understand, he really wants to talk about adherence to 
standards while using the buggiest and most non-adhering client on the 
market; Thunderbird. 


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/2/2013 4:25:55 PM
In article <021120131212312665%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > > Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> > > > MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> > > > Any one more?
> > > 
> > >  Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
> > 
> > or tin?
> > 
> > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> 
>  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.

And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
operating system, no?

Thunderbird is compiled for Mac, as is tin and slrn. 

-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/2/2013 4:27:40 PM
In article <slrnl7aa00.ld.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman <mr@sandman.net>
wrote:

> > > or tin?
> > > 
> > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > 
> >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> 
> And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> operating system, no?

tin and slrn are cli apps.

thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
designed, but at least it's not a cli.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/2/2013 4:47:15 PM
On 2 Nov 2013 16:25:55 GMT, Sandman wrote:
>  For reasons I can't understand, he really wants to talk about adherence to 
>  standards while using the buggiest and most non-adhering client on the 
>  market; Thunderbird. 

I don't know where TB does not stick to standards - but I feel that MS
Outlook is by far the worst, doing things different than the standard.
0
t-usenet (182)
11/2/2013 4:58:33 PM
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 12:12:31 -0400, nospam wrote:
>  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.

Then please do check the headers of my posting,
Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/2/2013 4:59:05 PM
In message <l537f7$vhl$1@dont-email.me> 
  Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-02 15:25:37 +0000, Matt said:

>> On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
>> Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> or tin?
>> 
>>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
>> 
>> Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
>> Unicode (both in subject and body).

> Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his 
> obsession with UTF8.

I downgrade every message that is posted with a content-type header
that is not utf-8, just like I downgrade every Google groups posting
and any posting made with that shit-for brains Microsoft product that
can't quote or wrap. I forget the name. Version 15 of something.


-- 
Some people are like a slinky: Totally useless, but you
can't help but smile when you push tehm down the stairs
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/2/2013 5:08:07 PM
In article <slrnl7acbq.a9o.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <l537f7$vhl$1@dont-email.me> 
>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > On 2013-11-02 15:25:37 +0000, Matt said:
> 
> >> On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
> >> Martin ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> or tin?
> >> 
> >>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> >> 
> >> Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
> >> Unicode (both in subject and body).
> 
> > Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his 
> > obsession with UTF8.
> 
> I downgrade every message that is posted with a content-type header
> that is not utf-8, just like I downgrade every Google groups posting
> and any posting made with that shit-for brains Microsoft product that
> can't quote or wrap. I forget the name. Version 15 of something.

'downgrade' meaning what?

-- 
Lloyd
0
lloydp21 (419)
11/2/2013 6:21:39 PM
In message <021120131321396083%lloydp21@live.com> 
  Lloyd <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnl7acbq.a9o.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <l537f7$vhl$1@dont-email.me> 
>>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
>> > On 2013-11-02 15:25:37 +0000, Matt said:
>> 
>> >> On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
>> >> Martin ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> or tin?
>> >> 
>> >>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
>> >> 
>> >> Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
>> >> Unicode (both in subject and body).
>> 
>> > Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his 
>> > obsession with UTF8.
>> 
>> I downgrade every message that is posted with a content-type header
>> that is not utf-8, just like I downgrade every Google groups posting
>> and any posting made with that shit-for brains Microsoft product that
>> can't quote or wrap. I forget the name. Version 15 of something.

> 'downgrade' meaning what?

Meaning it gets a score less than zero so it is by default marked as
read. It is not killed so that I never see it, I reserve that for trolls
and birther scum.

-- 
This was music that had not only escaped but had robbed a bank on the
way out. It was music with its sleeves rolled up and its top button
undone, raising its hat and grinning and stealing the silver.  It was
music that went down to the feet by way of the pelvis without paying a
call on Mr. Brain. --Soul Music
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/2/2013 7:31:50 PM
On 02.11.2013 17:58, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> On 2 Nov 2013 16:25:55 GMT, Sandman wrote:
>>   For reasons I can't understand, he really wants to talk about adherence to
>>   standards while using the buggiest and most non-adhering client on the
>>   market; Thunderbird.
>
> I don't know where TB does not stick to standards...

Don't care about Sandman, he was slapped a couple of months about UTF-8 
while he was swearing on MTNW and hasn't digested it until yet.
He seems to make a fixation against Thunderbird

TB will surely not compete in the top five dedicated usenet clients but 
does honestly its work as a general mail-usenet client and is to my 
knowledge the only one that runs on all three OS with the same data.

Nevertheless, I too would be interested to know what from TB might not 
be adhering to the standards.


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/2/2013 7:49:54 PM
On 02.11.2013 14:48, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
>>   On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
>>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
>>> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
>>> Any one more?
>>
>>   Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
>
> or tin?
>
> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
>
> - Martin
>
 From what I see from those using it, TIN and SLRN are handling UTF-8 
pretty well.


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/2/2013 7:53:07 PM
In article <l53l74$hal$1@tota-refugium.de>,
 Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 02.11.2013 14:48, Martin ɱrautmann wrote:
> > On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
> >>   On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
> >>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> >>> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> >>> Any one more?
> >>
> >>   Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
> >
> > or tin?
> >
> > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> >
> > - Martin
> >
>  From what I see from those using it, TIN and SLRN are handling UTF-8 
> pretty well.

I think Matt or Martin were being pedantic.  tin and slrn are UNIX command line 
news readers that can be compiled to run on any POSIX-compliant system.

I'll amend the comment--they aren't native MacOS GUI applications.

Some people don't count /usr/local/bin. You obviously do.

-- 
DeeDee, don't press that button!  DeeDee!  NO!  Dee...
[I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically ignored]


0
vilain2 (2188)
11/2/2013 9:02:44 PM
On 2013-11-02, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 02.11.2013 14:48, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
>>>   On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
>>>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
>>>> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
>>>> Any one more?
>>>
>>>   Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
>>
>> or tin?
>>
>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
>>
>> - Martin
>>
>  From what I see from those using it, TIN and SLRN are handling UTF-8 
> pretty well.

I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
correctly?

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/2/2013 9:11:47 PM
On 2 Nov 2013 21:11:47 GMT, Jolly Roger wrote:
>  I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>  correctly?

It obviously is since it names
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
and does show utf-8 correctly both within header fields and body.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/2/2013 9:32:53 PM
In article <slrnl7abpo.9gt.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

>  On 2 Nov 2013 16:25:55 GMT, Sandman wrote:
> >  For reasons I can't understand, he really wants to talk about adherence to
> >  standards while using the buggiest and most non-adhering client on the
> >  market; Thunderbird.
>
>  I don't know where TB does not stick to standards - but I feel that MS
>  Outlook is by far the worst, doing things different than the standard.

Oh, is outlook still around for NNTP? I didn't know that. Yeah, it may beat 
TB if so :)

Obviously, Google Groups is the worst offender, but that's hardly even a 
"client" either, so... :)

--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/2/2013 10:49:13 PM
In article <021120131247157686%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > > or tin?
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > 
> > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > 
> > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > operating system, no?
> 
>  tin and slrn are cli apps.

So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs 
for obvious reasons only on macs.

"defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 

In fact, *ALL* applications are CLI apps on a Mac, all have cli 
executables, launch safari by executing its executable file as such:

 sandman@ ~> cd /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/
 sandman@  /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS> ./Safari

It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI doesn't 
make an app more "Mac" than another.

>  thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
>  designed, but at least it's not a cli.

"looks" doesn't define what is and what isn't a Mac app... It may be what 
defines as a typical "Mac-style", but if the app executes natively on a 
Mac, then it's a Mac app.

Java apps.. well, that's a greyzone, really :)

-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/2/2013 10:54:41 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <l537f7$vhl$1@dont-email.me> 
>   Lloyd E Parsons <lloydp21@live.com> wrote:
> > On 2013-11-02 15:25:37 +0000, Matt said:
> 
> >> On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (14:48),
> >> Martin ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> or tin?
> >> 
> >>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> >> 
> >> Starting with the 2.x branch, I didn't have any problems with tin and
> >> Unicode (both in subject and body).
> 
> > Other than Lazlo, I've never seen anyone that actually cared about his
> > obsession with UTF8.
> 
> I downgrade every message that is posted with a content-type header
> that is not utf-8, just like I downgrade every Google groups posting
> and any posting made with that shit-for brains Microsoft product that
> can't quote or wrap. I forget the name. Version 15 of something.

Makes me proud to be downgraded, if it's as asinine a reason as posting
in another encoding everyone here can understand perfectly well :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/2/2013 10:58:38 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <slrnl7aa00.ld.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman <mr@sandman.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > > > or tin?
> > > > 
> > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > 
> > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > 
> > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be
> > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > operating system, no?
> 
> tin and slrn are cli apps.
> 
> thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> designed, but at least it's not a cli.

Ah, well. If we're drawing arbitrary lines...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/2/2013 10:58:39 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-11-02, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> > On 02.11.2013 14:48, Martin ?rautmann wrote:
> >> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
> >>>   On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
> >>>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
> >>>> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
> >>>> Any one more?
> >>>
> >>>   Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
> >>
> >> or tin?
> >>
> >> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> >>
> >> - Martin
> >>
> >  From what I see from those using it, TIN and SLRN are handling UTF-8
> > pretty well.
> 
> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> correctly?

From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/2/2013 10:58:40 PM
In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman
<mr@sandman.net> wrote:

> In article <021120131247157686%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
> <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> 
> > > > > or tin?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > > 
> > > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > > 
> > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > operating system, no?
> > 
> >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
> 
> So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs 
> for obvious reasons only on macs.
> 
> "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 
> 
> In fact, *ALL* applications are CLI apps on a Mac, all have cli 
> executables, launch safari by executing its executable file as such:
> 
>  sandman@ ~> cd /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/
>  sandman@  /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS> ./Safari

Or you can say:

Second-Mini% open -a Safari.app 'http://www.example.net'

-- 
Tim

"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
timstreater2 (1190)
11/2/2013 11:01:39 PM
In article <021120132301391980%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs 
> > for obvious reasons only on macs.
> > 
> > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 
> > 
> > In fact, *ALL* applications are CLI apps on a Mac, all have cli 
> > executables, launch safari by executing its executable file as such:
> > 
> >  sandman@ ~> cd /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/
> >  sandman@  /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS> ./Safari
> 
>  Or you can say:
> 
>  Second-Mini% open -a Safari.app 'http://www.example.net'

Indeed, but the point was to launch the Safari executable directly from the 
CLI. It may be that "open" also does that, I thought it sent AppleEvents, 
but apparently it does not. 



-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/2/2013 11:16:38 PM
In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman
<mr@sandman.net> wrote:

> > > > > or tin?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > > 
> > > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > > 
> > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > operating system, no?
> > 
> >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
> 
> So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs 
> for obvious reasons only on macs.
> 
> "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 

mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with a
..app extension.

what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before the
mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all, namely
graphics (but a slew of other stuff). 

> In fact, *ALL* applications are CLI apps on a Mac, all have cli 
> executables, launch safari by executing its executable file as such:
>
>  sandman@ ~> cd /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/
>  sandman@  /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS> ./Safari

thats just a shortcut for double-clicking.

that's very different than a command line utility that parses the
command string in terminal for parameters, returning information in
text form.

> It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI doesn't 
> make an app more "Mac" than another.

yes it does. the mac is all about gui. 

it's the same over on windows - dos apps (command line) versus windows
apps (gui).

> >  thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> >  designed, but at least it's not a cli.
> 
> "looks" doesn't define what is and what isn't a Mac app... It may be what 
> defines as a typical "Mac-style", but if the app executes natively on a 
> Mac, then it's a Mac app.

looks is exactly what defines it.

> Java apps.. well, that's a greyzone, really :)

not really. java apps, with rare exception, suck.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/2/2013 11:27:26 PM
In article <1lbrd3x.14lh5r01n01hjnN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> > > > > or tin?
> > > > > 
> > > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > > 
> > > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > > 
> > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be
> > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > operating system, no?
> > 
> > tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > 
> > thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> > designed, but at least it's not a cli.
> 
> Ah, well. If we're drawing arbitrary lines...

nothing arbitrary about it.

tin and slrn have nothing to do with the mac and do not use anything
mac specific (cocoa, quicktime, quartz, etc.). they are pure text and
are not mac apps.

just because they can run on a mac does not make them a mac app.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/2/2013 11:27:27 PM
On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> correctly?
ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 12:48:49 AM
On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> correctly?
>
> From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
> least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
> that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.

¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº

Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:

<http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>

Wonder what's wrong...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/3/2013 12:50:25 AM
On 11/3/13 1:50 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>> correctly?
>>
>>  From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>> least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>> that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
>
> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
>
> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
>
> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
>
> Wonder what's wrong...
>
Nothing: I see exactly the same content that is on the picture (with 
another font, obviously.


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 12:55:48 AM
In message <bdl84iFqrepU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-02, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> On 02.11.2013 14:48, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2013 14:23:58 +0100 (CET), Matt wrote:
>>>>   On Sam 02 novembre 2013 (05:41),
>>>>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Currently I am still counting three clients only:
>>>>> MTNW(rip), Thoth, MacSOUP.
>>>>> Any one more?
>>>>
>>>>   Maybe Hogwasher can be included.
>>>
>>> or tin?
>>>
>>> I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
>>>
>>> - Martin
>>>
>>  From what I see from those using it, TIN and SLRN are handling UTF-8 
>> pretty well.

> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> correctly?

“Are you able to see UTF-8 like 😈, ⌘, and 🌺?”

-- 
My real name is Fat Patricia
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/3/2013 1:05:42 AM
In message <bdlkuhFtdm3U1@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>> correctly?
>>
>> From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>> least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>> that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.

> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº

> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:

> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>

That's what I saw in our post.


-- 
Something wonderful, if you took the long view, was about to happen.  If
you took the short or medium view, something horrible was about to
happen.  It's like the difference between seeing a beautiful new star in
the winter sky and actually being close to the supernova. It's the
difference between the beauty of morning dew on a cobweb and actually
being a fly. --Reaper Man
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/3/2013 1:07:30 AM
In article <bdlkuhFtdm3U1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> >> correctly?
> >
> > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
> > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
> > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
> 
> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
> 
> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
> 
> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
> 
> Wonder what's wrong...

Here is how Thoth (1.9.0.20) rendered your message:

<https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16141072/thoth_screenshot.png>

Looks OK.

Did my reply come through OK?

-- 
Jim Gibson
0
jimsgibson (533)
11/3/2013 1:31:42 AM
In article <bdlkuhFtdm3U1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> ����������
> 
> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
> 
> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>

I see the same thing in the png as quoted above.
0
michelle14 (19004)
11/3/2013 2:50:53 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1lbrd3x.14lh5r01n01hjnN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > > > > > or tin?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I don't know how Laszlo counted, but he missed slrn, too.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  tin and slrn aren't mac apps.
> > > > 
> > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be
> > > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac
> > > > operating system, no?
> > > 
> > > tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > > 
> > > thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> > > designed, but at least it's not a cli.
> > 
> > Ah, well. If we're drawing arbitrary lines...
> 
> nothing arbitrary about it.
> 
> tin and slrn have nothing to do with the mac and do not use anything
> mac specific (cocoa, quicktime, quartz, etc.). they are pure text and
> are not mac apps.
> 
> just because they can run on a mac does not make them a mac app.

What about Apple's OS X specific command line apps? The stuff they wrote
that has no GUI? You realise the vast majority of OS X is GUI-less,
right? Is all that not Mac stuff?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 2:55:32 AM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> >> correctly?
> >
> > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
> > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
> > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
> 
> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
> 
> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
> 
> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
> 
> Wonder what's wrong...

That is what I see in MacSOUP. Are you saying you don't see that in your
own post in slrn? Well, search me *shrug* I've only ever used tin in
recent memory when it comes to command line Usenet clients. You're the
expert here compared to me, JR! :-)

Either way, I mean who really uses the full charset of Unicode in
Usenet? I think it's just one or two rabid Unicode fans (that someone
can be that much of a fan of character encodings bothers even someone as
geeky as me...) stirring the pot, here.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 2:55:33 AM
Jim Gibson <JimSGibson@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <bdlkuhFtdm3U1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
> <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> > >> correctly?
> > >
> > > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
> > > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
> > > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
> > 
> > ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
> > 
> > Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
> > 
> > <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
> > 
> > Wonder what's wrong...
> 
> Here is how Thoth (1.9.0.20) rendered your message:
> 
> <https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16141072/thoth_screenshot.png>
> 
> Looks OK.
> 
> Did my reply come through OK?

Just fine from the quoted material in your post using Thoth, as it also
did here in MacSOUP :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 2:55:34 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> > I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> > correctly?
> ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
> ??ìç??? ????.

And there we have a bunch of ?'s from our buddy Laszlo who apparently
prefers not to be understood :-D Funny how both Thoth and MacSOUP much
maligned by Laszlo rendered JR's UTF-8 characters just fine, but Laszlo
makes a ballsup of his UTF-8 encoded message *evil grin*
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 2:55:34 AM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> > >> correctly?
> > >
> > > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
> > > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
> > > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
> > 
> > ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
> > 
> > Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
> > 
> > <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
> > 
> > Wonder what's wrong...
> 
> That is what I see in MacSOUP. Are you saying you don't see that in your
> own post in slrn? Well, search me *shrug* I've only ever used tin in
> recent memory when it comes to command line Usenet clients. You're the
> expert here compared to me, JR! :-)
> 
> Either way, I mean who really uses the full charset of Unicode in
> Usenet? I think it's just one or two rabid Unicode fans (that someone
> can be that much of a fan of character encodings bothers even someone as
> geeky as me...) stirring the pot, here.

My own screenshot: <http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1830/wkcv.png>
(MacSOUP above Firefox displaying JR's image linked in that post).
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 3:12:46 AM
On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:27:26 -0400, nospam wrote:
> > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > > operating system, no?
> > > 
> > >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > 
> > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs 
> > for obvious reasons only on macs.
> > 
> > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 
> 
>  mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with a
>  .app extension.
> 
>  what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before the
>  mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all, namely
>  graphics (but a slew of other stuff). 

Ok, so it's your arbitrary definition.

> > It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI doesn't 
> > make an app more "Mac" than another.
> 
>  yes it does. the mac is all about gui. 

whatever you say

My slrn is compiled for Darwin and is not executable on any other
platform. In fact, it does run on Intel baxed Macs only, and is neither
exectuable on PPC Macs nor Inteld based Linux or Windows PCs.

But if your definition of a Mac App is that it has a GUI by Mac
standards, that's your definition.

Others may claim that a Mac app is what you do buy from the App store,
and nothing else.

I claim that a program, running on the Mac, is a Mac application.

EOD,
Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/3/2013 3:36:15 AM
On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 15:55:33 +1300, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>  Either way, I mean who really uses the full charset of Unicode in
>  Usenet? I think it's just one or two rabid Unicode fans (that someone
>  can be that much of a fan of character encodings bothers even someone as
>  geeky as me...) stirring the pot, here.

Yeah, and ASCII’s 7 bits would be good eonugh for you. You never
understood that kind of 8 bits hype either.

Maybe you could understand that elsewhere in the world there's other
people, too.

I do not know anyone who really uses the *full* charset. But I do know
that many which need more than ASCII, where UTF-8 (that is its sub
portion they need) does just fine.

BTW: do you find the unicode within this posting? You might find out why
this one is better than the usual one...

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/3/2013 3:42:07 AM
On Sun, 3 Nov 2013 15:55:34 +1300, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>  Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> > > I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> > > correctly?
> > ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
> > ??ìç??? ????.
> 
>  And there we have a bunch of ?'s from our buddy Laszlo who apparently
>  prefers not to be understood :-D Funny how both Thoth and MacSOUP much
>  maligned by Laszlo rendered JR's UTF-8 characters just fine, but Laszlo
>  makes a ballsup of his UTF-8 encoded message *evil grin*

So your's is broken. I could read it without ?s,
Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/3/2013 3:43:37 AM
In article <1lbrnjt.19pv84k10ypaixN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> What about Apple's OS X specific command line apps? The stuff they wrote
> that has no GUI? You realise the vast majority of OS X is GUI-less,
> right? Is all that not Mac stuff?

when someone thinks of a 'mac app' they don't think of command line.

they think of a gui interface with menus and windows and a mac look and
feel, as opposed to looking like a microsoft windows app. 

that's what differentiated a mac from unix and dos back in the 1980s
and it still does today.

certainly you've heard apps described as mac-like and windows-like
before. where do you think those come from?
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/3/2013 3:43:49 AM
In article <slrnl7bh5f.9s4.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> > > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > > > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > > > operating system, no?
> > > > 
> > > >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > > 
> > > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript,
> > > runs 
> > > for obvious reasons only on macs.
> > > 
> > > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 
> > 
> >  mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with a
> >  .app extension.
> > 
> >  what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before the
> >  mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all, namely
> >  graphics (but a slew of other stuff). 
> 
> Ok, so it's your arbitrary definition.

nothing arbitrary about it. it's common usage of the term.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/3/2013 3:43:50 AM
In article <slrnl7bh5f.9s4.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:27:26 -0400, nospam wrote:
> > > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be 
> > > > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > > > operating system, no?
> > > > 
> > > >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > > 
> > > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript,
> > > runs 
> > > for obvious reasons only on macs.
> > > 
> > > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application. 
> > 
> >  mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with a
> >  .app extension.
> > 
> >  what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before the
> >  mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all, namely
> >  graphics (but a slew of other stuff). 
> 
> Ok, so it's your arbitrary definition.
> 
> > > It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI doesn't 
> > > make an app more "Mac" than another.
> > 
> >  yes it does. the mac is all about gui. 
> 
> whatever you say
> 
> My slrn is compiled for Darwin and is not executable on any other
> platform. In fact, it does run on Intel baxed Macs only, and is neither
> exectuable on PPC Macs nor Inteld based Linux or Windows PCs.
> 
> But if your definition of a Mac App is that it has a GUI by Mac
> standards, that's your definition.
> 
> Others may claim that a Mac app is what you do buy from the App store,
> and nothing else.
> 
> I claim that a program, running on the Mac, is a Mac application.

The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
0
michelle14 (19004)
11/3/2013 4:03:50 AM
In message <1lbrnq1.15xgsj1n3c1kxN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

>> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> >> correctly?
>> >
>> > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>> > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>> > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
>> 
>> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
>> 
>> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
>> 
>> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
>> 
>> Wonder what's wrong...

> That is what I see in MacSOUP. Are you saying you don't see that in your
> own post in slrn? Well, search me *shrug* I've only ever used tin in
> recent memory when it comes to command line Usenet clients. You're the
> expert here compared to me, JR! :-)

> Either way, I mean who really uses the full charset of Unicode

No one uses the full character set, but it sure is nice to be able to
post things like ½, √2, πr² ⌘R or "press eject (⏏)".

At this point, that will work fine for the majority of users. Some
people will not be able to read it, but most will. However, a large
percentage of the people who can READ it, are using clients that can't
quote it properly.

-- 
Maybe I should have seen it as some kind of sign, except I don't believe
in them no more; no no, but I believe these things I can't forget, tho I
don't see you anymore.
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/3/2013 5:28:19 AM
In message <1lbro3y.1rapmckgqypjwN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> > I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> > correctly?
>> ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
>> ??ìç??? ????.

> And there we have a bunch of ?'s from our buddy Laszlo who apparently
> prefers not to be understood :-D Funny how both Thoth and MacSOUP much
> maligned by Laszlo rendered JR's UTF-8 characters just fine, but Laszlo
> makes a ballsup of his UTF-8 encoded message *evil grin*

Nothing wrong with Laszlo's post.

ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.

yep, looks fine.

-- 
You've never heard of the Millennium Falcon?
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/3/2013 5:30:44 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lbro3y.1rapmckgqypjwN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
> >> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> >> > I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
> >> > correctly?
> >> ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
> >> ??ìç??? ????.
> 
> > And there we have a bunch of ?'s from our buddy Laszlo who apparently
> > prefers not to be understood :-D Funny how both Thoth and MacSOUP much
> > maligned by Laszlo rendered JR's UTF-8 characters just fine, but Laszlo
> > makes a ballsup of his UTF-8 encoded message *evil grin*
> 
> Nothing wrong with Laszlo's post.
> 
> ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
> ??ìç??? ????.
> 
> yep, looks fine.

Yep, fine if he doesn't want me or others to read it :-) Which may well
be a good thing, after the trying experience this thread is turning
into, heh.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/3/2013 5:54:24 AM
On 11/3/13 5:03 AM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
> for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
> Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.

You mean that it would run nowhere else without being profoundly 
rewritten with non-Apple API's?
Does that, excepted for Apple Corp, make any economical sense in the 
21st century?




-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 6:33:26 AM
In article <021120131927268318%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac AppleScript, runs
> > for obvious reasons only on macs.
> >
> > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only application.
>
>  mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with a
>  .app extension.

That's a rather simplistic view, if you ask me. Which you didn't :)

By the way, ".app" is not an extension for an executable, only for the 
folder where the executable is found. It's a "magic extension" that makes 
the Finder treat folders in a specific way.

>  what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before the
>  mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all, namely
>  graphics (but a slew of other stuff).

Quite the contrary.

 ~> osascript -e 'display dialog "This is a GUI"'

Sure, most shell commands are meant to display termcap/shell information, 
and few have any form of GUI, but it's hardly a rule. Any cli commands can 
have any GUI

> > In fact, *ALL* applications are CLI apps on a Mac, all have cli
> > executables, launch safari by executing its executable file as such:
> >
> >  sandman@ ~> cd /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS/
> >  sandman@  /Applications/Safari.app/Contents/MacOS> ./Safari
>
>  thats just a shortcut for double-clicking.

The "open" command is a shortcut for double-clicking. The above tells the 
BSD shell to execute the "Safari" binary (note the lack of .app).

>  that's very different than a command line utility that parses the
>  command string in terminal for parameters, returning information in
>  text form.

Absolutely, no argument there. But I think it's silly to claim that 
"mdfind", a command line program for accessing the Mac-only Spotlight 
database is not a Mac application.

> > It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI doesn't
> > make an app more "Mac" than another.
>
>  yes it does. the mac is all about gui.

Not since it moved to BSD UNIX :)

>  it's the same over on windows - dos apps (command line) versus windows
>  apps (gui).

Ah, maybe you're making the distinction between "CLI apps" and "OSX apps"? 
Or "Aqua apps" or "Cocoa apps"?

"Mac" is the hardware, "Windows" is the operating system. The distinction 
is a bit clearer there. BUt maybe I'm starting to understand what you mean, 
and I'm just not agreeing with the nomenclature of the claim :)

I'll substitute, in my mind, "Mac app" for "Cocoa app" from here on out :)

> > >  thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> > >  designed, but at least it's not a cli.
> >
> > "looks" doesn't define what is and what isn't a Mac app... It may be what
> > defines as a typical "Mac-style", but if the app executes natively on a
> > Mac, then it's a Mac app.
>
>  looks is exactly what defines it.

Not really no. One can make a very Windows-like Cocoa app. 

--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/3/2013 8:14:53 AM
In article <021120132103509952%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> > My slrn is compiled for Darwin and is not executable on any other
> > platform. In fact, it does run on Intel baxed Macs only, and is neither
> > exectuable on PPC Macs nor Inteld based Linux or Windows PCs.
> > 
> > But if your definition of a Mac App is that it has a GUI by Mac
> > standards, that's your definition.
> > 
> > Others may claim that a Mac app is what you do buy from the App store,
> > and nothing else.
> > 
> > I claim that a program, running on the Mac, is a Mac application.
> 
>  The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
>  for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
>  Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.

Not only has nospam not claimed any of that (he pointed to the "look" of 
the app, and the .app extension), but that makes tons of apps not Mac apps, 
like Firefox and Thunderbird, who are not developed using Apple's API's and 
doesn't use Apple's GUI. MOst users would probably still consider these to 
"look" like Mac apps, and they have a .app extension on their parent 
folder, so...

The point is that it's hard to have too rigid of a rules on what 
constitutes a "Mac app". 

And, as I mentioned earlier, what nospam probably meant was a "Cocoa app" 
or a "OSX app" which may exclude CLI apps (but not necessarily, cli apps 
can be written with Cocoa).




-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/3/2013 8:25:39 AM
In article <slrnl7c248.2gu.mr@irc.sandman.net>, Sandman
<mr@sandman.net> wrote:

> >  The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
> >  for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
> >  Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
> 
> Not only has nospam not claimed any of that (he pointed to the "look" of 
> the app, and the .app extension), 

actually, that is what i claimed.

writing an app for the mac using apple's apis will give you an app that
looks and feels like other mac apps (although there are exceptions) and
it will have an .app extension.

> but that makes tons of apps not Mac apps, 
> like Firefox and Thunderbird, who are not developed using Apple's API's and 
> doesn't use Apple's GUI. MOst users would probably still consider these to 
> "look" like Mac apps, and they have a .app extension on their parent 
> folder, so...

those are a bit of a crossbreed, but it's clear their roots are not on
the mac. 

many of them do not look like typical mac apps, especially when they
use cross-platform frameworks which uses its own user interface
elements rather than the native ones. they stick out like a sore thumb.

some apps, in an effort to be consistent across all platforms, pick
windows standards for the ui design and it just looks wrong on a mac.

one which really annoys me is when a dialog has its default button
(usually the 'ok' button) on the wrong side. it's opposite on windows
than it is on mac.

these apps are really windows apps which were ported to the mac and
with a half-assed job.

at a minimum, cross-platform apps should use native ui elements so at
least it looks correct on each platform it runs on. works both ways
too. a mac interface looks wrong on windows. 

> The point is that it's hard to have too rigid of a rules on what 
> constitutes a "Mac app". 

nobody said anything about rigid, but a command line utility is not
only not a mac app but it's not an app at all, and it's not in the
applications folder either.

> And, as I mentioned earlier, what nospam probably meant was a "Cocoa app" 
> or a "OSX app" which may exclude CLI apps (but not necessarily, cli apps 
> can be written with Cocoa).

as a rough guide, what would qualify is an app is something that meets
apple's human interface guidelines. however, that's not a strict
requirement, as they are just guidelines, not rules which must not be
broken.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/3/2013 8:39:07 AM
In article <021120131927278418%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app" should be
> > > > determined by whether or not it can run as a process under the Mac 
> > > > operating system, no?
> > > 
> > > tin and slrn are cli apps.
> > > 
> > > thunderbird at least looks like a mac app. it's not the most well
> > > designed, but at least it's not a cli.
> > 
> > Ah, well. If we're drawing arbitrary lines...
> 
>  nothing arbitrary about it.
> 
>  tin and slrn have nothing to do with the mac and do not use anything
>  mac specific (cocoa, quicktime, quartz, etc.). they are pure text and
>  are not mac apps.

Eh, Thunderbird doesn't use any of that either... It is written in C and 
C++. Well, it does use Quicktime for media access, but not quartz.



-- 
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/3/2013 8:51:07 AM
On Dim 03 novembre 2013 (06:30),
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> Nothing wrong with Laszlo's post.

> ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
> մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.

> yep, looks fine.

+1 (from a pedantic person) :)

-- 
echo 'hfrarg@gurybfgcynglchf.bet' | \
tr '[a-z]' '[n-za-m]'
0
hfrarg8158 (12)
11/3/2013 11:48:32 AM
In article <l54qnn$dva$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> > The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
> > for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
> > Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
> 
> You mean that it would run nowhere else without being profoundly 
> rewritten with non-Apple API's?

There are compilers that will build for various OSes, just by flipping
a switch.

> Does that, excepted for Apple Corp, make any economical sense in the 
> 21st century?

Yes.
0
foo460 (2162)
11/3/2013 3:44:27 PM
In article <031120130439070377%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> some apps, in an effort to be consistent across all platforms, pick
> windows standards for the ui design and it just looks wrong on a mac.
> 
> one which really annoys me is when a dialog has its default button
> (usually the 'ok' button) on the wrong side. it's opposite on windows
> than it is on mac.

When Claris wrote FileMaker Plus for Windows, that's what it did; it
made the Windows app be consistent with the Mac app.  As a result of
complaints by Windows users, the next version of FileMaker Plus adhered
to the Windows guidelines.
0
foo460 (2162)
11/3/2013 3:49:48 PM
On 11/3/13 4:44 PM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <l54qnn$dva$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
> <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>>> The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
>>> for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
>>> Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
>>
>> You mean that it would run nowhere else without being profoundly
>> rewritten with non-Apple API's?
>
> There are compilers that will build for various OSes, just by flipping
> a switch.
>

The easiest way to get an app universal is to compile it with the GTK APIs.
GTK runs natively on Linux, but GTK connectors exist for Mac and for 
Windows alltogether.
Then the question arises: would the result be a Mac application?




-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 5:16:31 PM
In article <l560dh$ht8$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> The easiest way to get an app universal is to compile it with the GTK APIs.

not necessarily. there are a lot of cross-platform frameworks.

> GTK runs natively on Linux, but GTK connectors exist for Mac and for 
> Windows alltogether.
> Then the question arises: would the result be a Mac application?

no, it would be a gtk application that runs on the mac.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/3/2013 5:28:17 PM
In article <l5699j$gpb$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> >> The easiest way to get an app universal is to compile it with the GTK APIs.
> >
> > not necessarily. there are a lot of cross-platform frameworks.
> >
> And then, would that be Mac applications? 

hybrid.

> Most developers won't want to 
> put all their eggs in one basket and prefer using universal frameworks 
> over the vanilla mac APIs.

no they don't, because the results are never as good than if it was
native. the app lacks features that competing apps have and it looks
wrong too. 

it's a tradeoff. if you want to run on multiple platforms, you end up
with the least common denominator. 

> So how many applications are really qualifying to be "mac apps"?

a lot.
0
nospam59 (11088)
11/3/2013 6:54:50 PM
On 03.11.2013 18:28, nospam wrote:
> In article <l560dh$ht8$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
> <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> The easiest way to get an app universal is to compile it with the GTK APIs.
>
> not necessarily. there are a lot of cross-platform frameworks.
>
And then, would that be Mac applications? Most developers won't want to 
put all their eggs in one basket and prefer using universal frameworks 
over the vanilla mac APIs.
So how many applications are really qualifying to be "mac apps"?



-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 7:48:02 PM
On 03.11.2013 19:54, nospam wrote:
> it's a tradeoff. if you want to run on multiple platforms, you end up
> with the least common denominator...

....losing what, in case of a newsreader running that way on OSX?


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/3/2013 8:19:37 PM
On 2013-11-03 02:55:34 +0000, jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn 
Genet) said:

> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>> correctly?
>> ìƒ ??? ç?? ???? ??? ????? ??ì? ????, ???? ???? ?????? ??ƒ????? ???????
>> ??ìç??? ????.
> 
> And there we have a bunch of ?'s from our buddy Laszlo who apparently
> prefers not to be understood :-D Funny how both Thoth and MacSOUP much
> maligned by Laszlo rendered JR's UTF-8 characters just fine, but Laszlo
> makes a ballsup of his UTF-8 encoded message *evil grin*

Those ???? or as posted; "ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ 
վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ" actually  reads; "If you can 
read and quote this text, then your usenet software handles unicode 
well"

So it seems that it is MacSOUP making the "ballsup" of Lazlo's UTF-8 encoding.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/4/2013 12:37:36 AM
On 2013-11-03, Martin Τrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>
> My slrn is compiled for Darwin and is not executable on any other
> platform. In fact, it does run on Intel baxed Macs only, and is neither
> exectuable on PPC Macs nor Inteld based Linux or Windows PCs.
>
> But if your definition of a Mac App is that it has a GUI by Mac
> standards, that's your definition.
>
> Others may claim that a Mac app is what you do buy from the App store,
> and nothing else.
>
> I claim that a program, running on the Mac, is a Mac application.

Indeed. Especially one that is compiled specifically to run on the
Macintosh architecture.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 12:53:23 AM
On 2013-11-03, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <slrnl7bh5f.9s4.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>, Martin
> ?rautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 02 Nov 2013 19:27:26 -0400, nospam wrote:
>> > > > > And Thunderbird is? Whether or not something is a "mac app"
>> > > > > should be determined by whether or not it can run as a
>> > > > > process under the Mac operating system, no?
>> > > > 
>> > > >  tin and slrn are cli apps.
>> > > 
>> > > So is "osascript", a command line program for running Mac
>> > > AppleScript, runs for obvious reasons only on macs.
>> > > 
>> > > "defaults" is a good example of a cli-only and Mac-only
>> > > application. 
>> > 
>> >  mac applications, otherwise known as apps, are gui programs, with
>> >  a .app extension.
>> > 
>> >  what you describe are cli commands, many of which existed before
>> >  the mac, and do not use any mac specific technologies at all,
>> >  namely graphics (but a slew of other stuff). 
>> 
>> Ok, so it's your arbitrary definition.
>> 
>> > > It's just that some apps have a GUI and some do not. Having a GUI
>> > > doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>> > 
>> >  yes it does. the mac is all about gui. 
>> 
>> whatever you say
>> 
>> My slrn is compiled for Darwin and is not executable on any other
>> platform. In fact, it does run on Intel baxed Macs only, and is
>> neither exectuable on PPC Macs nor Inteld based Linux or Windows PCs.
>> 
>> But if your definition of a Mac App is that it has a GUI by Mac
>> standards, that's your definition.
>> 
>> Others may claim that a Mac app is what you do buy from the App
>> store, and nothing else.
>> 
>> I claim that a program, running on the Mac, is a Mac application.
>
> The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
> for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
> Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.

No way.

If you think the only area Apple chose to develop APIs was the user
interface, you'd be so wrong you might be wise to consider comedy for a
career. ; )

No, my definition of a Macintosh application is that the application was
compiled for, and runs on the Macintosh platform. Plain and simple. 

And why the fuck are you guys having this tit for tat argument to begin
with? Even if slrn isn't a "Mac application" by the strict definition,
the reality is that at least some Mac users do use and value it. So be
it.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:02:39 AM
On 2013-11-03, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> correctly?
> ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
> մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.
>
Can't read that. Something is apparently amiss in my slrn configuration
(which is extremely close to teh bare vanilla configuration)...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:05:49 AM
On 2013-11-03, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 11/3/13 1:50 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>>> correctly?
>>>
>>>  From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>>> least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>>> that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
>>
>> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
>>
>> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
>>
>> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
>>
>> Wonder what's wrong...
>>
> Nothing: I see exactly the same content that is on the picture (with 
> another font, obviously.

Wait. So why don't *I* see the right thing, then? Must be a termainl
issue...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:07:05 AM
On 2013-11-03, Jim Gibson <JimSGibson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here is how Thoth (1.9.0.20) rendered your message:
>
><https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16141072/thoth_screenshot.png>
>
> Looks OK.
>
> Did my reply come through OK?

Here's how it looks to me:

<http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode2.png>

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:10:41 AM
On 2013-11-03, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> >> correctly?
>> >
>> > From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>> > least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>> > that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
>> 
>> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
>> 
>> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
>> 
>> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
>> 
>> Wonder what's wrong...
>
> That is what I see in MacSOUP. Are you saying you don't see that in your
> own post in slrn? Well, search me *shrug* I've only ever used tin in
> recent memory when it comes to command line Usenet clients. You're the
> expert here compared to me, JR! :-)

Nope, I see:

<http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode2.png>

I bet you it's the font I'm using in Terminal. I'm going to try
switching to something more mainstream to see if that changes things.

> Either way, I mean who really uses the full charset of Unicode in
> Usenet? I think it's just one or two rabid Unicode fans (that someone
> can be that much of a fan of character encodings bothers even someone as
> geeky as me...) stirring the pot, here.

It's more of an irritation to me, because it means I won;t be able to
read some posts.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:13:24 AM
On 2013-11-04, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-03, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/3/13 1:50 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2013-11-02, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>>>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>>>> correctly?
>>>>
>>>>  From your headers: "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8". So slrn at
>>>> least thinks it's encoding your posts with UTF-8, and I'm fairly certain
>>>> that is in fact the case :-) Try posting some of the expanded charset.
>>>
>>> ¡™£¢∞§¶•ªº
>>>
>>> Yuck. I was expecting to see something more like this:
>>>
>>> <http://jollyroger.kicks-ass.org/unicode.png>
>>>
>>> Wonder what's wrong...
>>>
>> Nothing: I see exactly the same content that is on the picture (with 
>> another font, obviously.
>
> Wait. So why don't *I* see the right thing, then? Must be a termainl
> issue...

Sure enough, the LANG environment variable was not set, and because of
that the shell was not using UTF-8 encoding.

I have slrn installed on a central server on my network, and I connect 
to that server through SSH to access the app from wherever I am at the
time.

I'll just set it explicitly in my shell startup scripts.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:23:59 AM
On 2013-11-03, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <bdl84iFqrepU1@mid.individual.net> 
>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>> correctly?
>
> “Are you able to see UTF-8 like 😈, ⌘, and 🌺?”

Well now that I've got my shell configured to use UTF-8 encoding, yes!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:33:25 AM
On 2013-11-04, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-03, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>> correctly?
>> ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
>> մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.
>>
> Can't read that. Something is apparently amiss in my slrn configuration
> (which is extremely close to teh bare vanilla configuration)...

After setting LANG environment variable, I can read this! : )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 1:39:09 AM
In message <bdoa7dFg0jkU3@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-03, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>> On 11/2/13 10:11 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> I'm using slrn. How can I tell if it's configured to handle UTF-8
>>> correctly?
>> ìƒ վօմ çąղ ɾҽąժ ąղժ զմօէҽ էհìʂ էҽ×է, էհҽղ վօմɾ մʂҽղҽէ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ հąղժӀҽʂ 
>> մղìçօժҽ աҽӀӀ.
>>
> Can't read that. Something is apparently amiss in my slrn configuration
> (which is extremely close to teh bare vanilla configuration)...

in .slrnrc:

charset display "utf-8"
charset editor "utf-8"



-- 
"He has no enemies, but is intensely disliked by his friends.." Oscar
Wilde
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/4/2013 2:01:27 AM
In article <bdoa1fFg0jkU2@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> > The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
> > for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
> > Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
> 
> No way.
> 
> If you think the only area Apple chose to develop APIs was the user
> interface, you'd be so wrong you might be wise to consider comedy for a
> career. ; )

No, I said that the GUI is a subset of the APIs.
0
foo460 (2162)
11/4/2013 2:13:25 AM
On 2013-11-04, Michelle Steiner <foo@bar.com> wrote:
> In article <bdoa1fFg0jkU2@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> > The commonly accepted definition of a Mac application is one written
>> > for the Macintosh, using Apple's API's (which means that they use
>> > Apple's GUI).  nospam is right.
>> 
>> No way.
>> 
>> If you think the only area Apple chose to develop APIs was the user
>> interface, you'd be so wrong you might be wise to consider comedy for a
>> career. ; )
>
> No, I said that the GUI is a subset of the APIs.

Ok.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/4/2013 3:43:54 AM
J.P. Kuypers <Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid> wrote:
> In article (Dans l'article) <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>, Michelle
> Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote (�crivait) :

>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on
>> Mavericks? Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> MacSOUP ?
> Some French speaking Useneters swear by it.

Some german too...
Especially since Stefan changed the keyboard handling last month.
Finally! I begged him for months to do that. MacBook keyboards no longer
sport an enter key, which was very essential for fast reading. Now you
can also use the key above the right shift and left of the return key to
achieve that function.

Go grab the new version 2.8.4 here:
  <http://www.haller-berlin.de/macsoup/download.html>


-- 
In a world without walls and fences,
   who needs windows and gates?
0
spamfalle2 (13)
11/5/2013 7:31:57 PM
In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
 Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:

> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.

You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is 
the case.

-- 
And wackiness ensues...
0
timmcn (2339)
11/8/2013 10:28:22 PM
On 2013-11-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>  Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>
>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>
> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is 
> the case.

 : )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
jollyroger (11010)
11/9/2013 4:13:24 AM
In article <timmcn-5F65DB.16282108112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> > Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>
>  You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
>  the case.

Indeed I do, and it's not something I merely "think". 


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/10/2013 8:28:40 AM
On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>
>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>
> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> the case.
>
Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?

ìէ'ʂ ą քìէվ էհąէ վօմɾ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ çąղ'է ժìʂքӀąվ էհąէ.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/11/2013 8:02:49 AM
On 2013-11-11 08:02:49 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>>   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>> 
>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
>> the case.
>> 
> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> 
> ìէ'ʂ ą քìէվ էհąէ վօմɾ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ çąղ'է ժìʂքӀąվ էհąէ.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/11/2013 8:52:51 AM
On 2013-11-11 08:02:49 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>>   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>> 
>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
>> the case.
>> 
> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> 
> ìէ'ʂ ą քìէվ էհąէ վօմɾ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ çąղ'է ժìʂքӀąվ էհąէ.

Hey Laz! For a guy who doesn't even use a Mac, you sure get your 
knickers in a knot over Mac Usenet clients and Unicode. Do you have 
plans to buy a Mac sometime in your future?

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/11/2013 8:56:58 AM
Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >
> > You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> > the case.
> >
> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support
> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> 
> ì?'? ? ?ì?? ???? ???? ??ƒ????? ç??'? ?ì????? ????.

Do me a favour - write entirely in unicode's extended character set. I
can't even work up the enthusiasm to waste ten seconds on killfiling
you.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg505 (3043)
11/11/2013 9:37:50 AM
In article <2013111100565837013-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2013-11-11 08:02:49 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com>
> said:
> 
> > On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >>   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >> 
> >> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> >> the case.
> >> 
> > Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
> > since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> > 
> > ����'�� �� �ш��߹� �߹��ֹ� ���ֹ��� ���֐�߹��֊泇 �ߟֹ�'��
> > �������Ѳğֹ� �߹��ֹ�.
> 
> Hey Laz! For a guy who doesn't even use a Mac, you sure get your 
> knickers in a knot over Mac Usenet clients and Unicode. Do you have 
> plans to buy a Mac sometime in your future?

Nah, he just thinks he owns the right to unicode and wants to be paid
lots of fees by the newsreader programmers.  ;-)
0
yourname3 (802)
11/11/2013 8:00:45 PM
On 11.11.2013 10:37, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>>>    Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>>>
>>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
>>> the case.
>>>
>> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support
>> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
>>
>> ì?'? ? ?ì?? ???? ???? ??ƒ????? ç??'? ?ì????? ????.
>
> Do me a favour - write entirely in unicode's extended character set. I
> can't even work up the enthusiasm to waste ten seconds on killfiling
> you.
>
What is a "unicode extended character set"?
Something new i'm not aware of? Please tell us.
Isn't regular unicode powerful enough?
;-)
You are welcome to put me in your kill file any time, it won't take ten 
seconds! It will however not make your obsolete software more compliant.
It's rarely a solution to kill the messenger, instead of dealing with 
the ugly reality.




-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/12/2013 12:50:20 PM
In article <2013111100565837013-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>  On 2013-11-11 08:02:49 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:
>
> > On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >>   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >>
> >> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> >> the case.
> >>
> > Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support
> > since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> >
> > ìէ'ʂ ą քìէվ էհąէ վօմɾ ʂօƒէաąɾҽ çąղ'է ժìʂքӀąվ էհąէ.
>
>  Hey Laz! For a guy who doesn't even use a Mac, you sure get your
>  knickers in a knot over Mac Usenet clients and Unicode. Do you have
>  plans to buy a Mac sometime in your future?

Nah, Michel was publically proven to be a liar some year ago when he made 
some really wild claims about his news readers compliance to NNTP 
standards. He has been trying his darnest to get back since then. He is 
reduced to making these angry schoolyard claims now and then, thinking he 
is somehow redeeming himself from the past. :)


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/12/2013 2:04:16 PM
On 12.11.2013 15:04, Sandman wrote:
> Nah, Michel was publically proven to be a liar

Say *you claim to have proven something*. Everybody else knew it was 
pure fantasy, but you kept on proclaiming yourself the winner.
Everybody with a bit of common sense knows that MTNW can't handle 
Unicode according to the standards and you keep pretending it were the 
climax of conformity. ROTFL.
MTNW was a piece of non compliant abandonware crap and now since 
Mavericks won't support it any more it will land to where it belonged 
since ever: the trashcan.
You are not a liar, you are just ill, in your inability to face reality.


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/12/2013 7:29:31 PM
On 11/11/13 9:56 AM, Savageduck wrote:
> Hey Laz! For a guy who doesn't even use a Mac, you sure get your
> knickers in a knot over Mac Usenet clients and Unicode. Do you have
> plans to buy a Mac sometime in your future?

I beg your pardon?
What makes you believe that I don't even use a Mac?
Were you too lazy to read my sig?

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/12/2013 7:52:27 PM
On 11/11/13 9:00 PM, Your Name wrote:
> Nah, he just thinks he owns the right to unicode and wants to be paid
> lots of fees by the newsreader programmers.
Oh you know what I think?
By the way your asumption would have been a very bad idea. You have only 
got two readers left that are unaware of Unicode. Can't make a business 
out of that.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/12/2013 7:54:56 PM
In article <l5u12g$75i$2@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 11/11/13 9:00 PM, Your Name wrote:
> > Nah, he just thinks he owns the right to unicode and wants to be paid
> > lots of fees by the newsreader programmers.
> 
> Oh you know what I think?
> By the way your asumption would have been a very bad idea. You have only 
> got two readers left that are unaware of Unicode. Can't make a business 
> out of that.

It was a joke.  :-\
0
yourname3 (802)
11/12/2013 8:21:55 PM
On 2013-11-12 19:52:27 +0000, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> said:

> On 11/11/13 9:56 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>> Hey Laz! For a guy who doesn't even use a Mac, you sure get your
>> knickers in a knot over Mac Usenet clients and Unicode. Do you have
>> plans to buy a Mac sometime in your future?
> 
> I beg your pardon?
> What makes you believe that I don't even use a Mac?

OK! OK! So you switched up to respond.
It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX 
or Windows.


> Were you too lazy to read my sig?

I saw it some time ago, noted it, and once I determined it was not 
going to enlighten me, or change my life, have ignored it ever since.

I prefer stuff originating from folks such as H. L. Mencken and some 
who give us stuff such as the thought provoking examples below, but it 
is always somewhat pretentious to add them to a sig:

"Of all escape mechanisms, death is the most efficient." (HLM 1910)

"Suppose two-thirds of the members of the national House of 
Representatives were dumped into the Washington garbage incinerator 
tomorrow, what would we lose to offset our gain of their salaries and 
the salaries of their parasites?" (HLM 1927}

"The truth, indeed, is something that mankind, for some mysterious 
reason, instinctively dislikes." (HLM 1930)

"Laws are no longer made by a rational process of public discussion; 
they are made by a process of blackmail and intimidation, and they are 
executed in the same manner." (HLM 1930)

"Tell you what: You don't bother me about being an atheist and I won't 
have to mention the endless list of violent hypocrisy that accompanies 
your superstitious fairy tale."

"To be all knowing, is to have run out of ideas."

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, 
illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which 
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a 
piece of shit by the clean end."


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/12/2013 10:27:13 PM
On 11/12/13, 4:27 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX or
> Windows.

Not that I want to get in the middle of somebody else's fight, but I use 
TB for Usenet on my Mac because I have a whole bunch of email from 
several different PC mailsystems, some pretty obscure and ancient, that 
I needed to read on the Mac and the only common vehicle I could find, as 
I recall, was Thunderbird.  So, when Eudora, which was my mail system on 
the Mac, went away, I switched over to Thunderbird for all my mail, and, 
then, when Newswatcher went away I figured I might as well use TB for 
that too.  While NW (and even Outlook, which I used to use on a Windows 
system) have some things I like better than TB, TB works fine for my 
purposes.

Ted
0
TMPLee (191)
11/12/2013 11:04:24 PM
In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
 Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >
> > You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> > the case.
> >
> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> 
> �?'? � ?�?? ??�? ???? ??�??�?? ��?'? ?�???�? ??�?.

Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with Unicode, 
isn't it?

-- 
And wackiness ensues...
0
timmcn (2339)
11/13/2013 3:47:44 AM
In article <timmcn-BF648C.21474412112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim
McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
>  Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> > On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > > In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> > >   Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> > >
> > > You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> > > the case.
> > >
> > Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support 
> > since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> > 
> > �?'? � ?�?? ??�? ???? ??�??�?? ��?'? ?�???�? ??�?.
> 
> Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with Unicode, 
> isn't it?

Probably 95% of people on Usenet don't care about it either.  :-)
0
yourname3 (802)
11/13/2013 3:58:44 AM
On 12.11.2013 23:27, Savageduck wrote:
> It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX or
> Windows.
People have different reasons hat might not suit others. TB issues 
compliant NNTP stuff and that's the only thing that matters for others.

-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/13/2013 4:48:39 AM
In article <l5tvj6$38i$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>  On 12.11.2013 15:04, Sandman wrote:
> > Nah, Michel was publically proven to be a liar
>
>  Say *you claim to have proven something*. Everybody else knew it was
>  pure fantasy, but you kept on proclaiming yourself the winner.

Haha, keep telling yourself that, Michel. Whatever makes it possible for 
you to sleep at night, I suppose. :)





--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/13/2013 6:44:02 AM
In article <l5v0b7$h88$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> > It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX or
> > Windows.
>
>  People have different reasons hat might not suit others. TB issues
>  compliant NNTP stuff and that's the only thing that matters for others.

Thunderbird is, as you know, one of the least compliant and most buggy NNTP 
clients known to mankind. Only a complete idiot would continue to claim 
otherwise.



--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/13/2013 6:45:27 AM
On 13.11.2013 07:45, Sandman wrote:
> In article <l5v0b7$h88$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>>> It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX or
>>> Windows.
>>
>>   People have different reasons hat might not suit others. TB issues
>>   compliant NNTP stuff and that's the only thing that matters for others.
>
> Thunderbird is, as you know, one of the least compliant and most buggy NNTP
> clients known to mankind. Only a complete idiot would continue to claim
> otherwise.
>
Where exactly aren't TB postings compliant?  You failed already to 
answer that question! That would be the least on can expect from someone 
insulting others.





-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/13/2013 9:15:26 AM
On 13.11.2013 04:58, Your Name wrote:
> In article <timmcn-BF648C.21474412112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim
> McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
>>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>>> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
>>>>    Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
>>>>
>>>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
>>>> the case.
>>>>
>>> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support
>>> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
>>>
>>> ì?'? à ?ì?? ??à? ???? ??Ÿ??à?? çà?'? ?ì???à? ??à?.
>>
>> Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with Unicode,
>> isn't it?
>
> Probably 95% of people on Usenet don't care about it either.  :-)
>
Your vision of the world is somewhat restricted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WritingSystemsoftheWorld4.png
even Latin America uses glyphs that e.g. Thoth can't resolve and mixes 
up in this subject.



-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/13/2013 9:37:51 AM
On 31.10.2013 11:12, Sandman wrote:
> In article <l4t4e4$4cl$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
>>> and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
>>> understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
>>> outside of their older encodings.
>>
>>   You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
>>   Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
>>   You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
>>   software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
>>   refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
>>   one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.
>
> Michel says, using the least standards-compliant software known to mankind:
> Thunderbird.
>

I am still waiting for you to substantiate that claim...




-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/13/2013 8:15:53 PM
In article <l5vh98$fl3$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun
<lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> On 13.11.2013 04:58, Your Name wrote:
> > In article <timmcn-BF648C.21474412112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim
> > McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >> In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
> >>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >>> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >>>>    Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >>>>
> >>>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think that is
> >>>> the case.
> >>>>
> >>> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode support
> >>> since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope with it in2013?
> >>>
> >>> ��?'? �� ?��?? ??��? ???? ??��??��?? �߈�?'? ?��???��? ??��?.
> >>
> >> Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with Unicode,
> >> isn't it?
> >
> > Probably 95% of people on Usenet don't care about it either.  :-)
> 
> Your vision of the world is somewhat restricted.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WritingSystemsoftheWorld4.png
> even Latin America uses glyphs that e.g. Thoth can't resolve and mixes 
> up in this subject.

Countries that use accented characters, etc. have been using computers
and similar devices since long before unicode came about and most of
the people don't have any problem seeing words like "cafe" without the
accent mark above the letter e. 95% of the world simply doesn't care,
whether it's by laziness or simply become habit. To a large degree
unicode is too little too late.
0
yourname3 (802)
11/13/2013 8:24:38 PM
In article <l5vfv8$aom$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> >>> It still beats me why anybody would use TB for Usenet with either OSX 
> >>> or Windows.
> >>
> >>   People have different reasons hat might not suit others. TB issues
> >>   compliant NNTP stuff and that's the only thing that matters for others.
> >
> > Thunderbird is, as you know, one of the least compliant and most buggy NNTP
> > clients known to mankind. Only a complete idiot would continue to claim
> > otherwise.
>
>  Where exactly aren't TB postings compliant?

Faked ignorance - the trolls last resort... 

>  You failed already to answer that question! That would be the least on 
>  can expect from someone insulting others.

Where did I insult you, liar? If you don't want to be called a troll and a 
liar, perhaps you should troll and lie? Just a suggestion.


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/14/2013 10:00:18 AM
In article <l60mlp$ktk$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> >>> Yes, and they'll do so in either an older encoding for their language
> >>> and be understood by everyone in that language, or Unicode and not be
> >>> understood by users of older clients when they use extra chracters
> >>> outside of their older encodings.
> >>
> >>   You don't seen to have understood that the game is over since ages.
> >>   Unicode is the RFC standard in usenet and in any current OS. Period.
> >>   You are welcome to continue using your obsolete non-unicode aware
> >>   software (and listen to AM radio), but in the 21st century you'd better
> >>   refrain to recommend it as a valid NNTP client to replace an even older
> >>   one, that is not running any more on Mavericks.
> >
> > Michel says, using the least standards-compliant software known to mankind:
> > Thunderbird.
>
>  I am still waiting for you to substantiate that claim...

That's right, keep pretending that you have no idea that it can't even 
handle standards-compliant line breaks in URI's, it's your last resort! 
Lying and faking ignorance, so predictable, little fanboy :)


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/14/2013 10:01:46 AM
On 14 Nov 2013 10:00:18 GMT, Sandman wrote:
> >  You failed already to answer that question! That would be the least on 
> >  can expect from someone insulting others.
> 
>  Where did I insult you, liar? If you don't want to be called a troll and a 
>  liar, perhaps you should troll and lie? Just a suggestion.

I asked before, and you did not answer. You did insult Thunderbird. 
I did not see any proof that he claimed that you insulted him. But that
might proof both trolling and lying.

Before you start yet another flamewar, you might think about how to
proof your repeated claim, where you omitted answers for repeated
requets.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/14/2013 12:08:03 PM
In article <l5vh98$fl3$1@tota-refugium.de>,
 Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 13.11.2013 04:58, Your Name wrote:
> > In article <timmcn-BF648C.21474412112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim 
> > McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >> In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
> >>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >>> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> >>>>    Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> >>>>
> >>>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think 
> >>>> that is the case.
> >>>>
> >>> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode 
> >>> support since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope 
> >>> with it in2013?
> >>>
> >>> �?'? � ?�?? ??�? ???? ??�??�?? ��?'? ?�???�? ??�?.
> >>
> >> Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with 
> >> Unicode, isn't it?
> >
> > Probably 95% of people on Usenet don't care about it either.  :-)
> >
> Your vision of the world is somewhat restricted. 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WritingSystemsoftheWorld4.png even 
> Latin America uses glyphs that e.g. Thoth can't resolve and mixes up 
> in this subject.


Then folks who need Unicode should use a different newsreader.  

Since I read nothing but English (my French and Gaeilge skills are so 
poor that I can't claim to do much more than decipher) Unicode really 
doesn't have much benefit for me.

Someday I might find a use for musical glyphs in Unicode, I suppose, 
since I do participate in musical discussions.  Usually the score under 
discussion is far too complex to render in Unicode, however.

-- 
And wackiness ensues...
0
timmcn (2339)
11/14/2013 11:23:21 PM
In article <timmcn-373242.17232114112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim
McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> In article <l5vh98$fl3$1@tota-refugium.de>,
>  Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> > On 13.11.2013 04:58, Your Name wrote:
> > > In article <timmcn-BF648C.21474412112013@news.iphouse.com>, Tim 
> > > McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > >> In article <l5q2ve$urb$1@tota-refugium.de>,
> > >>   Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> > >>> On 08.11.2013 23:28, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >>>> In article <slrnl7b0ll.13j.mr@irc.sandman.net>,
> > >>>>    Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> Having a GUI doesn't make an app more "Mac" than another.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> You don't know much about this history of the Mac if you think 
> > >>>> that is the case.
> > >>>>
> > >>> Just to mention Mac's history: Macintoshs have included Unicode 
> > >>> support since version 8.5 and your newsreader still can't cope 
> > >>> with it in2013?
> > >>>
> > >>> �?'? � ?�?? ??�? ???? ??�??�?? ��?'? ?�???�? ??�?.
> > >>
> > >> Lucky for me that I don't care if my newsreader can cope with 
> > >> Unicode, isn't it?
> > >
> > > Probably 95% of people on Usenet don't care about it either.  :-)
> > 
> > Your vision of the world is somewhat restricted. 
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WritingSystemsoftheWorld4.png even 
> > Latin America uses glyphs that e.g. Thoth can't resolve and mixes up 
> > in this subject.
> 
> Then folks who need Unicode should use a different newsreader.  
> 
> Since I read nothing but English (my French and Gaeilge skills are so 
> poor that I can't claim to do much more than decipher) Unicode really 
> doesn't have much benefit for me.
<snip>

Technically English does have some [stolen] words that should have
accented letters (cafe being an obvious example), but most poeple
simply don't bother even when handwriting them, altough Microsoft Word
will automatically correct some of them for you. The proper English
language has long ago been eroded by the use of technology and the
creeping in of Americanisms.
0
yourname3 (802)
11/15/2013 12:18:31 AM
On 14.11.2013 13:08, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> I asked before, and you did not answer.

Just because Sandman can't.
He feels personally hurt when one mentions that he beloved MTNW issues 
broken links that -albeit being formally correct- can be followed by 
practically no other newsreader on that planet.
Then he begins insulting others, it's his last "argument"...


-- 
One computer and three operating systems, not the other way round.
One wife and many hotels, not the other way round ! ;-)
0
lazlo_lebrun (177)
11/15/2013 6:38:24 AM
On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:23:21 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
>  Since I read nothing but English (my French and Gaeilge skills are so 
>  poor that I can't claim to do much more than decipher) Unicode really 
>  doesn't have much benefit for me.

It doesn't matter whether you do need it yourself. But I feel it's
ignorant if you destroy a thread because your's doesnt, but his does -
and he may require it, if not with you, then with someone else.

You might be happy with plain ASCII. It's enough for me to talk with
you. But as soon as I do enter another newsgroup, I might prefer to use
e.g. a � sign - which itself does not need UTF-8. But UTF-8 does a
better job than messed up win charsets or iso-latin-1 or iso-latin-15.

It was me who added a � for a test to the subject - and it split the
threading by subject some time ago by someone with a broken newsreader.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/15/2013 6:44:09 AM
In article <l64fh0$kln$1@tota-refugium.de>, Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

>  On 14.11.2013 13:08, Martin Τrautmann wrote:
> > I asked before, and you did not answer.
>
>  Just because Sandman can't.
>  He feels personally hurt when one mentions that he beloved MTNW issues
>  broken links that -albeit being formally correct- can be followed by
>  practically no other newsreader on that planet.

As you know, they weren't broken, since they were adhering to the NNTP 
standard.

And they could be followed by all standards-adhering software on the 
planet. I follow them seemlessly from slrn for example. The only software 
that couldn't follow them was Thunderbird (and perhaps Unison, but that's a 
toy client anyway), so the only thing broken was the software that didn't 
adhere to standards.

>  Then he begins insulting others, it's his last "argument"...

Uh, I'm only insulting YOU, not "others". And I'm not really insult you, 
I'm calling you a troll and a liar, which is just being honest towards you. 
I don't really understand how this could be insulting to you? 


--
Sandman[.net]
0
mr249 (22317)
11/15/2013 11:32:23 AM
In article (Dans l'article)
<271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote (�crivait)�:

> Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
> download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
> that? 

The just released 1.9.1 version as now the option:

Added to the Newsreading topic of Preferences the ability to
automatically check for new articles every n minutes in open subscribed
group list windows.

-- 
Jean-Pierre Kuypers
0
J
11/15/2013 2:29:29 PM
In article <151120131529290956%Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid>,
J.P. Kuypers <Jean-Pierre.Kuypers@adresse.invalid> wrote:

> In article (Dans l'article)
> <271020132342542235%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
> <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote (�crivait)�:
> 
> > Just trying the Thoth trial. I can't find a setting to tell Thoth to
> > download new postings from the server every x minutes. Where do I set
> > that? 
> 
> The just released 1.9.1 version as now the option:
> 
> Added to the Newsreading topic of Preferences the ability to
> automatically check for new articles every n minutes in open subscribed
> group list windows.

Yeah, I've had this version for a little while and it all works just
fine.

-- 
Lloyd
0
Lloyd
11/15/2013 3:26:57 PM
On 2013-11-15 18:23:13 +0000, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> said:

> On 2013-11-15, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <slrnl8c218.hnm.mr@irc.sandman.net>
>> Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>>> In article <slrnl8bar7.np4.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis 
>>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> 
>>>> There are many uses for unicode other than foreign language characters, 
>>>> of course.
>>>> 
>>>> "Press ⌘R"
>>>> 
>>>> "Never lead with A♧ before Q♤ has been played."
>>>> 
>>>> "Hold the eject key (⏏)"
>>>> 
>>>> "Force quit… ⌥⌘⎋"
>>>> 
>>>> ★ list item
>>>> ★ another list item
>>>> ★ yet another list item
>>>> 
>>>> Then there are other useful symbols like ½, ±, ∩, ∆, ∇, ∫, ≄, ®, √, ∛,
>>>> and of course 🚻 (or 🚾), ‽, and 🐓.
>> 
>>> This is pretty funny. Emoji (being part of Unicode) displays just fine in
>>> slrn (allthough I'm not sure pico supports them in this followup) but they
>>> won't show in Thunderbird since Thunderbird doesn't support the full
>>> Unicode character set.
>> 
>> I doubt TB will show the ⌘ ⏏ ⎋ ⌥ or ★ either. It might do the fractions?
>> But yeah, I suspect most of those will be garbage in ThunderBird.
> 
> All appear correctly in slrn. Yey! : )

....and in the "toy client" Unison.

⛔️  🔗


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/15/2013 8:21:32 PM
In message <2013111512213228245-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2013-11-15 18:23:13 +0000, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> said:

>> On 2013-11-15, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> In message <slrnl8c218.hnm.mr@irc.sandman.net>
>>> Sandman <mr@sandman.net> wrote:
>>>> In article <slrnl8bar7.np4.g.kreme@mbp55.local>, Lewis 
>>>> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> There are many uses for unicode other than foreign language characters, 
>>>>> of course.
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Press ⌘R"
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Never lead with A♧ before Q♤ has been played."
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Hold the eject key (⏏)"
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Force quit… ⌥⌘⎋"
>>>>> 
>>>>> ★ list item
>>>>> ★ another list item
>>>>> ★ yet another list item
>>>>> 
>>>>> Then there are other useful symbols like ½, ±, ∩, ∆, ∇, ∫, ≄, ®, √, ∛,
>>>>> and of course 🚻 (or 🚾), ‽, and 🐓.
>>> 
>>>> This is pretty funny. Emoji (being part of Unicode) displays just fine in
>>>> slrn (allthough I'm not sure pico supports them in this followup) but they
>>>> won't show in Thunderbird since Thunderbird doesn't support the full
>>>> Unicode character set.
>>> 
>>> I doubt TB will show the ⌘ ⏏ ⎋ ⌥ or ★ either. It might do the fractions?
>>> But yeah, I suspect most of those will be garbage in ThunderBird.
>> 
>> All appear correctly in slrn. Yey! : )

> ...and in the "toy client" Unison.

Yeah, UTF-8 is not one of Unison's many failings, it does UTF-8 just
fine.

> ⛔️  🔗

I like that double-chain.

-- 
But just because you've seen me on your TV Doesn't mean I'm any more
enlightened than you
0
g.kreme (3671)
11/16/2013 12:47:02 AM
In article <slrnl8bglp.u0d.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>,
 Martin ɱrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:23:21 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >  Since I read nothing but English (my French and Gaeilge skills are 
> >  so poor that I can't claim to do much more than decipher) Unicode 
> >  really doesn't have much benefit for me.
> 
> It doesn't matter whether you do need it yourself. But I feel it's 
> ignorant if you destroy a thread because your's doesnt, but his does 
> - and he may require it, if not with you, then with someone else.

I don't understand the paranoia you are exhibiting.  

The odds of my "destroying" a thread are slim to none.  Since I don't 
read anything but English in any practical way (I have a smattering of 
French and Irish) and certainly don't write in any language but English, 
I am not going to be responding to a post written in a language 
requiring Unicode.  If you're writing in English, then there is no 
problem.  Why would I bother to try to horn in on a thread in a language 
I can't understand?  I wouldn't even be looking at those posts in the 
first place.

So your Unicode threads are safe from me.

> You might be happy with plain ASCII. It's enough for me to talk with 
> you. But as soon as I do enter another newsgroup, I might prefer to 
> use e.g. a � sign - which itself does not need UTF-8. But UTF-8 does 
> a better job than messed up win charsets or iso-latin-1 or 
> iso-latin-15.
> 
> It was me who added a � for a test to the subject - and it split the 
> threading by subject some time ago by someone with a broken 
> newsreader.

So you set that up.  It prove something to you, apparently, but not to 
me.  Other than than Unicode is not ready for prime time in the real 
world.

-- 
And wackiness ensues...
0
timmcn (2339)
11/16/2013 4:34:16 AM
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:34:16 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
>  In article <slrnl8bglp.u0d.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>,
>   Martin ɱrautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 17:23:21 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >  Since I read nothing but English (my French and Gaeilge skills are 
> > >  so poor that I can't claim to do much more than decipher) Unicode 
> > >  really doesn't have much benefit for me.
> > 
> > It doesn't matter whether you do need it yourself. But I feel it's 
> > ignorant if you destroy a thread because your's doesnt, but his does 
> > - and he may require it, if not with you, then with someone else.
> 
>  I don't understand the paranoia you are exhibiting.  

Yours just did with the way my name should have been displayed.
Even worse, you will destroy the name of someone who actually does have
these characters within his name.

>  The odds of my "destroying" a thread are slim to none.  Since I don't 
>  read anything but English in any practical way (I have a smattering of 
>  French and Irish) and certainly don't write in any language but English, 
>  I am not going to be responding to a post written in a language 
>  requiring Unicode.

Maybe you don't. But others do - and who will stop you from replying to
a thread such as "MacOS 10.10 costs 9,99 €, but is free in US"?

This one here now names a € symbol - I suppose you won't get it, but
destroy this instead.

>  If you're writing in English, then there is no 
>  problem.  Why would I bother to try to horn in on a thread in a language 
>  I can't understand?  I wouldn't even be looking at those posts in the 
>  first place.

You do ignore the problem that even a thread in English might include
characters which are not ASCII.

Obviously you can't "über den eigenen Tellerrand schauen".
(a German saying where dict.leo.org suggests the translation “to look
beyond one’s own nose”). And even there you might observe how crippled
your setup is since proper typography does require a proper apostrophe ’
(which looks like a small 9) instead of the plain typewriter '.

- Martin
0
t-usenet (182)
11/16/2013 5:08:05 AM
In article <slrnl8dvdl.1188.t-usenet@ID-685.user.individual.de>,
 Martin Trautmann <t-usenet@gmx.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 22:34:16 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > 
> >  I don't understand the paranoia you are exhibiting.  
> 
> Yours just did with the way my name should have been displayed.
> Even worse, you will destroy the name of someone who actually does have
> these characters within his name.

What a bunch of crybabies.  "Oh, how I am *destroyed* by your fiendish 
character encoding!"  You know how many computer systems *still* screw 
up my last name because they can't handle an apostrophe?  No Unicode 
issues necessary.  Stop being so dramatic.

> This one here now names a € symbol - I suppose you won't get it, but
> destroy this instead.

Regardless of Usenet, the Euro is doing just fine at destroying itself.  
Zing!  (Said the man throwing stones from the glass house that is the 
United States :-)

> You do ignore the problem that even a thread in English might include
> characters which are not ASCII.

Seriously, it is unquestionably annoying.  At this point, I think best 
practices simply should be to say that any "old" code should be allowed 
to slide for limited ASCII support.  But any new code that supports 
encodings of any kind should *first* implement Unicode.

It's all, moot, though.  Usenet software is not being modernized to the 
extent that users can appreciate it.  On the Mac, MT-NW is dead, there 
is no good replacement, no prospects for new development, and nobody is 
doing anything to crowd fund anything different.  Another tempest in a 
teapot.

-- 
iPhone apps that matter:    http://appstore.subsume.com/
My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, theremailer.net,
    and probably your server, too.
0
Doc
11/16/2013 5:07:30 PM
In article <l4pvmm$d1r$1@tota-refugium.de>,
 Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:

> On 29.10.2013 22:27, Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> > Laszlo Lebrun <lazlo_lebrun@laszlomail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
> >> ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????.
> >
> > MacSOUP and Apple Mail do. I don't remember about Eudora which I used as
> > well for email many years ago.
>
> Dear Jamie,
> I did not post that:
> "??? ????? ç??'? ?????? ??ìç???...
> ???? ì? ??? ?çç??????? ì? ??? ?l ?? ç??????."
> but
> "But thoth can't handle unicode...
> that is not acceptable in the 21 st century. "
> written in non-ascii unicode.
> Apparently your MacSOUP is badly distorting unicode characters also.

Not just MacSOUP. I got gibberish in MT-NW.

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
dfmanno (398)
11/18/2013 12:28:31 AM
In article <2013111214271336162-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, 
> illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which 
> holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a 
> piece of shit by the clean end."

Mencken never said that. The first cite for "mainstream media" is 1980 
(he died in 1956), and "political correctness" would have meant 
something totally different to him than it does today, then being the 
Communist Party term for the dogmatic application of Stalinist doctrine. 
The current meaning for the phrase dates to 1970.

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
dfmanno (398)
11/18/2013 1:00:42 AM
On 2013-11-18 01:00:42 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:

> In article <2013111214271336162-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional,
>> illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by mainstream media, which
>> holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a
>> piece of shit by the clean end."
> 
> Mencken never said that.

I never said he did. All my Mencken quotes in that post are tagged 
(HLM), and have a year tag. Go back and take another look at my post.

> The first cite for "mainstream media" is 1980
> (he died in 1956),

Yup! The above quote has absolutely nothing to do with Mencken.

> and "political correctness" would have meant
> something totally different to him than it does today,

I doubt if he would have even been familiar with the term.

> then being the Communist Party term for the dogmatic application of 
> Stalinist doctrine.
> The current meaning for the phrase dates to 1970.

Yup!

Note, of the quotes I gave the last three do not have authors credited, 
or dates of origin noted.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
11/18/2013 1:14:54 AM
In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
 Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 

MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|

-- 
Matti Haveri <mattiDOThaveriATgmailDOTeiroskaaDOTcom> remove ei roskaa
0
Matti
2/7/2014 10:49:03 PM
On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> 
wrote:
> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on 
>> Mavericks?
>
> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|

Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn 
with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant 
you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't 
justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly 
atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few 
elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
0
Tim
2/8/2014 12:42:49 AM
On 2014-02-07, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:
> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>
> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|

I've replaced MTNW with slrn on Mac OS X 10.9.x and am loving it! : )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/8/2014 2:04:35 AM
On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> 
> wrote:
>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on 
>>> Mavericks?
>>
>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>
> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn 
> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant 
> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't 
> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly 
> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few 
> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.

Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/8/2014 2:05:25 AM
On 2014-02-08, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on
>>>> Mavericks?
>>>
>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>
>> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn
>> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant
>> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't
>> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly
>> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few
>> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
>
> Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.

Me too but while I'm comfortable with VI, I prefer TextWrangler.
0
Tom
2/8/2014 2:28:16 AM
In article <bllj20Fd2teU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-08, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
> >>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on
> >>>> Mavericks?
> >>>
> >>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
> >>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
> >>
> >> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn
> >> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant
> >> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't
> >> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly
> >> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few
> >> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
> >
> > Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
> 
> Me too but while I'm comfortable with VI, I prefer TextWrangler.

Me, I'm comfortable with Snow Leopard, MT-NW and a bed consisting of a 
mattress on milk crates, a car whose seats go right back carrying a 
pillow that can be put across the protrudent central gear and 
handbrake (the legs can then be comfortably rested across the driving 
seat to the feet area of the passenger section) and a smaller pillow 
that is perfect for the neck/head for a snooze.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/8/2014 2:49:14 AM
In message <nospam-07233C.00490208022014@news.netikka.fi> 
  Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:
> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 

> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|

That's a silly level of trouble to go to for MTNW.

-- 
Spontaneity has its time and place.
0
Lewis
2/8/2014 3:33:44 AM
In message <bllhn5FcrlrU2@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> 
>> wrote:
>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on 
>>>> Mavericks?
>>>
>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>
>> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn 
>> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant 
>> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't 
>> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly 
>> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few 
>> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.

> Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.

vim or BBEdit for me.

-- 
We will fight for Bovine Freedom and hold our large heads high We will
run free with the Buffalo or die
0
Lewis
2/8/2014 3:34:36 AM
Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:

> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
> 
> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
MacSoup. 

-- 
_____________________________
Ron, the humblest guy in town
0
RonTheGuy
2/8/2014 3:47:32 AM
Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> writes, quoting
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> on slrn:

> > Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
> 
> Me too but while I'm comfortable with VI, I prefer TextWrangler.

The author of slrn, John Davis, also writes a damn good text editor
(jed).  It's a character cell terminal program only, though.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
2/8/2014 4:04:41 AM
On 2014-02-08, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <nospam-07233C.00490208022014@news.netikka.fi>
>   Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>
>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>
> That's a silly level of trouble to go to for MTNW.

Not silly if you are running an older version of OS X in a VM anyway.

The use of Snow Leopard *Server* here may be a clue that Matti wanted to
run SL under a VM anyway so the ability to run MTNW is just a bonus.

I have MTNW running fine in an ML Server in Fusion 5, but I decided to move
on and try a few other newsreaders instead.

FWIW ML Server in Fusion 5 gets sluggish and I am wondering whether or
not this would be better in Fusion 6.  I have wondered whether this could
be down to the instance getting the memory compression treatment but it's
just a theory.

VMware don't tell us enough about Fusion 6 to justify an upgrade IMHO.

--
Paul Sture
0
Paul
2/8/2014 5:28:01 AM
On 8 Feb 2014 02:05:25 GMT, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri 
>> <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on 
>>>> Mavericks?
>>>
>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>
>> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-) I have gone to using slrn 
>> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant 
>> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I 
>> can't justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become 
>> truly atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out 
>> with a few elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
>
> Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.

I've never been able to get along with vi.  I preferred Emacs and used 
Gnus for a while, but there are enough peculiarities with that setup 
that I looked for something different.  Using scoring has been very 
helpful with spam control.
0
Tim
2/8/2014 6:24:09 AM
On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:

> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
>  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> 
> I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> 
> -- Michelle

I used Thoth happily for many years. However, having just got a new 
Mini I found that the version of Thoth that I had on my G5 running 
Tiger wouldn't work on Mavericks and the version that does work on 
Mavericks can no longer be registered.

So I tried Unison and Thuderbird, and found I much prefer Unison, which 
was very easy to set up. The Unison interface quite a different  Thoth 
but as I've got used to it and find it easy to use. Getting used to big 
changes (and Tiger to Mavericks is quite a big junp!) isn't easy but 
afterwards one tends to wonder why it seemed such a big deal.

Kit

0
Kit
2/8/2014 11:55:47 AM
On 2014-02-08 11:55:47 +0000, Kit said:

> I tried Unison and Thuderbird, and found I much prefer Unison, which 
> was very easy to set up. The Unison interface quite a different  Thoth 
> but as I've got used to it and find it easy to use. Getting used to big 
> changes (and Tiger to Mavericks is quite a big junp!) isn't easy but 
> afterwards one tends to wonder why it seemed such a big deal.

I went the same route after Hogwasher went to the slaughterhouse (at 
last, and RIP.) I'm finding Unison to be okay; more than okay, 
actually, as I've gotten more familiar with the interface and options. 
Life goes on.
-- 
JoeWolfDee
Among those whom I like or admire, I can find�no common denominator, 
but among those�whom I love, I can: all of them make me laugh.��--WH 
Auden

0
Joe
2/8/2014 1:49:51 PM
In message <ld4acp$lmc$1@reader2.panix.com> 
  billy@MIX.COM <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> writes, quoting
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> on slrn:

>> > Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
>> 
>> Me too but while I'm comfortable with VI, I prefer TextWrangler.

> The author of slrn, John Davis, also writes a damn good text editor
> (jed).  It's a character cell terminal program only, though.

Ah, I didn't know jed was by him. I'll have to take a look at it (though
ever CLI editor seems to suffer froma  fatal flaw for me, they're not
vim :)

-- 
We understand the importance of having the bondage between the parent and the child.
0
Lewis
2/8/2014 2:23:49 PM
In message <1srgsa-era1.ln1@news.chingola.ch> 
  Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> On 2014-02-08, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <nospam-07233C.00490208022014@news.netikka.fi>
>>   Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks?
>>
>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>
>> That's a silly level of trouble to go to for MTNW.

> Not silly if you are running an older version of OS X in a VM anyway.

> The use of Snow Leopard *Server* here may be a clue that Matti wanted to
> run SL under a VM anyway so the ability to run MTNW is just a bonus.

Server is the only version (and 10.6.8 Server at that, I believe) that
is licensed to run in a VM, so no, not really.


-- 
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
0
Lewis
2/8/2014 2:28:11 PM
In comp.sys.mac.apps Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn 
> with nano as an editor in Terminal.

....which is even less of a solution for the average user. But that's 
this newsgroup and usenet in general these days; not the average users.

I've been running tin with nano in Terminal in my Mac since 2003, and 
before then, by telnetting in to my university's server, which I first 
started doing as a first year undergrad in September 1993. Yes, I'm one 
of that famous cohort of people who first got online in the September 
That Never Ended and ruined usenet forever. :)

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.
0
me
2/8/2014 4:12:48 PM
On 2014-02-08, Tom Stiller <clusterfux.upmon@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-08, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on
>>>>> Mavericks?
>>>>
>>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion
>>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>>
>>> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn
>>> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant
>>> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't
>>> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly
>>> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few
>>> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
>>
>> Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
>
> Me too but while I'm comfortable with VI, I prefer TextWrangler.

You mean the TextWrangler "edit" command-line tool? Doesn't that force
you to switch between the Terminal application and TextWrangler whenever
you want to view or create a message? I'm not sure I would like that
context switch.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/8/2014 4:26:08 PM
On 2014-02-08, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <bllhn5FcrlrU2@mid.individual.net> 
>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-08, Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 08 Feb 2014 00:49:03 +0200, Matti Haveri <nospam@here.invalid> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> In article <l4jfnl$995$1@dont-email.me>,
>>>>  Michelle Steiner <email@michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on 
>>>>> Mavericks?
>>>>
>>>> MT-NewsWatcher 3.5.3.b3 via Mac OS X Server 10.6.8 via VMware Fusion 
>>>> 6.0.2 via OS X 10.9.1 :-|
>>>
>>> Not the solution for the average user.  ;-)  I have gone to using slrn 
>>> with nano as an editor in Terminal.  Not as elegant as MTNW, I grant 
>>> you, but it gets the job done.  Usenet has declined so much that I can't 
>>> justify paying for an NNTP client.  The S/N ratio has become truly 
>>> atrocious.  slrn's scoring weeds almost all of the spam out with a few 
>>> elegant rules, though, so I appreciate that.
>
>> Same here, but with vi, which I'm perfectly comfortable with.
>
> vim or BBEdit for me.

I meant vim. : )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/8/2014 4:27:11 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> Server is the only version (and 10.6.8 Server at that, I believe) that
> is licensed to run in a VM, so no, not really.

That's a myth. 

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.
0
me
2/8/2014 4:57:30 PM
In article <2014020811554764615-kitzyme@yahoocouk>, Kit
<kitzyme@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 2013-10-27 16:41:25 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:
> 
> > So what is the consensus for a newsreader to replace MTNW on Mavericks? 
> >  Thoth, Unison, Hogwasher, something else?
> > 
> > I'm trying Unison, and I'm not all that happy with it, but I guess that 
> > I could learn to live with it.  I've downloaded Thoth, but haven't 
> > tried it yet; is it worth giving it a try?
> > 
> > -- Michelle
> 
> I used Thoth happily for many years. However, having just got a new 
> Mini I found that the version of Thoth that I had on my G5 running 
> Tiger wouldn't work on Mavericks and the version that does work on 
> Mavericks can no longer be registered.

Do you realize that you're replying to something that's almost four
months old?
0
Michelle
2/8/2014 5:42:56 PM
In article <ld5nlp$d20$1@dont-email.me>, Kir�ly <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
wrote:

> > Server is the only version (and 10.6.8 Server at that, I believe) that
> > is licensed to run in a VM, so no, not really.
> 
> That's a myth.

apple says otherwise.
0
nospam
2/8/2014 5:54:46 PM
In message <ld5nlp$d20$1@dont-email.me> 
  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> Server is the only version (and 10.6.8 Server at that, I believe) that
>> is licensed to run in a VM, so no, not really.

> That's a myth. 

Have you actually looked at the licenses?

10.6 non-server was certainly not license for running in a VM.

-- 
From deep inside the tears that I'm forced to cry From deep inside the
pain I--I chose to hide
0
Lewis
2/8/2014 6:49:40 PM
In article <080220141254465426%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <ld5nlp$d20$1@dont-email.me>, Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca>
> wrote:
> 
> > > Server is the only version (and 10.6.8 Server at that, I believe) that
> > > is licensed to run in a VM, so no, not really.
> > 
> > That's a myth.
> 
> apple says otherwise.

Does anyone know:

1) whether a retail copy of non-server SL can run in VirtualBox?

2) where one can legitimately obtain a copy of SL Server?

-- 
"People don't buy Microsoft for quality, they buy it for compatibility
with what Bob in accounting bought last year. Trace it back - they buy
Microsoft because the IBM Selectric didn't suck much" - P Seebach, afc