Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx

Ars Technica:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/


Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No
mention of mobile network access.

But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware to
match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.

So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.

In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
> 
> Ars Technica:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surfac
> e-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
> 
> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No
> mention of mobile network access.

the keyboard cover is a fantastic idea.

> But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware to
> match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.
> 
> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.

if they can pull it off they have a winner.

it will be interesting to see what google announces at google i/o next
week.

On 06-18-2012 23:53, nospam quoted/wrote:
>> >Microsoft web site:http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>> [snip]
> the keyboard cover is a fantastic idea.

The sixth image at the URI above shows another good idea (in my opinion).

A machine that doesn't prevent a competent user from working on it.


-- 
Wes Groleau

   “Beware the barrenness of a busy life.”
                                — Socrates

In message <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com> 
  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx

> Ars Technica:
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/


> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8.

For values of "Standard WIndows 8" that incldue "Cripple-ware Windows 8
RT Metro only." 

> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.

Should go about as well as the rest of there mobile attempts, I expect.



-- 
@mdhughes: One of the few regrets I have about lawnless apartments:
Shallow graves are so much harder to come by.
"You never really understand a person until you see things from his
point of view, until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in
it."

In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> 
> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8.

Ahhh, you mean a "laptop" ... wow, Microsoft really is getting better,
making a laptop only a decade or so after everyone else.  ;o)

Helpful Harry  :o)

Am 19.06.2012 05:47, schrieb JF Mezei:
> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>
> Ars Technica:
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>
>
> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8.

Just one of the two presented devices will run Windows 8 (Pro). The 
other one will run Windows RT, a somewhat limited (crippled?) version of 
Windows 8 running on ARM CPUs. Only Metro desktop, ... And definitively 
NO standard Windows applications will run on Windows RT! So much for 
'running standard Windows 8'...

And for the Windows 8 (Pro) device: According to what I read here in 
Germany, the price will adjust itself according to the best UltraBooks 
available (or announced?) so far - and they can go well beyond 1000� 
(~$1250).

So what do we have? An iPad clone, with a keyboard in the cover 
(something that is available for any iPad now for years), but hardly any 
apps. And we have a TouchPC for a premium price - something that failed 
badly on the market already several times... Might work this time though 
(after devices like the iPad prepared the users), but I wouldn't bet on 
it... ;-)

> No mention of mobile network access.
>
> But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware to
> match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.
>
> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.

There is about as much 'Windows' in two of the three platforms as there 
was for years in Windows Mobile, Pocket Windows, ... :-( Especially the 
biggest advantage of the (PC) Windows platform, the vast amount of 
available programs, is lost on both Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 RT.

There might be some advantages for programmers, as they will feel more 
'at home' when coming from desktop programming, but not (much) more...

But let's see what MS can pull off with these devices - and whether the 
big PC makers won't feel an unfair attack by MS... ;-)

Best regards,

Michael

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:07:54 +0200, Michael Eyd wrote:

> And for the Windows 8 (Pro) device: According to what I read here in
> Germany, the price will adjust itself according to the best UltraBooks
> available (or announced?) so far - and they can go well beyond 1000€
> (~$1250).

Let's have a look at the German Apple Store:

<http://store.apple.com/de/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air>

11" MacBook Air, from 1049€

<http://store.apple.com/de/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro>

13" MacBook Pro from 1249€

If the Surface prices are so high, no thanks.



-- 
Paul Sture

On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:47:16 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
> 
> Ars Technica:
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-
surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
> 
> 
> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No
> mention of mobile network access.
> 
> But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware to
> match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.
> 
> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.

The hardware looks nice, but is it vapourware?

<http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/a-first-look-and-
feel-of-microsofts-first-pc/>

"Microsoft still isn't ready to let Joe Public get their grubby little 
hands on Surface. At the press event, we were given a number of 
demonstrations, shown a number of non-functional demo units, and given 
scant few seconds to touch real working devices. The Intel Core i5-
powered Surface for Windows 8 Pro devices were not on display, either; 
only the ARM-powered Surface for Windows RT was available. However, the 
major design points are common between the two."



-- 
Paul Sture

In the last episode of <slrnju057p.2s6.g.kreme@krismbp.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

>In message <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com> 
>  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>
>> Ars Technica:
>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>
>
>> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
>> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8.
>
>For values of "Standard WIndows 8" that incldue "Cripple-ware Windows 8
>RT Metro only." 

For values of "'Standard Windows 8' that include 'Cripple-ware Windows 8
'RT Metro only.'" that include "Available running Windows 8 RT for Arm,
or full Windows 8 on Intel"

Standard Windows 8 is an option.

-- 
All generalizations are false.

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:45:10 +0200, Paul Sture wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:47:16 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:
> 
>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>> 
>> Ars Technica:
>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-
unveils-
> surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>> 
>> 
>> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
>> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No
>> mention of mobile network access.
>> 
>> But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware to
>> match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.
>> 
>> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
>> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to be
>> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.
> 
> The hardware looks nice, but is it vapourware?
> 
> <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/a-first-look-and-
> feel-of-microsofts-first-pc/>
> 
> "Microsoft still isn't ready to let Joe Public get their grubby little
> hands on Surface. At the press event, we were given a number of
> demonstrations, shown a number of non-functional demo units, and given
> scant few seconds to touch real working devices. The Intel Core i5-
> powered Surface for Windows 8 Pro devices were not on display, either;
> only the ARM-powered Surface for Windows RT was available. However, the
> major design points are common between the two."

A few Tweets from John Gruber:

'Sinofsky: “Now let me talk about availability and pricing.” Translation: 
“We’re not talking about price or availability.”'

"Microsoft could sell a lot of those keyboard covers if they made one for 
the iPad."

"I can sort of understand announcing without a ship date. But I can't 
understand announcing without prices. Why not start taking preorders?"

"Even Kickstarter projects have to set prices:"

"No battery life specs for either the ARM or Intel versions? Starting to 
think this is a hoax."


-- 
Paul Sture

In article <2to5b9-n7d.ln1@mint-hp.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
<paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> "Microsoft could sell a lot of those keyboard covers if they made one for 
> the iPad."

they keyboard cover is a seriously cool idea. i'd definitely buy one
for the ipad and i'm sure someone will make them fairly soon.

> "I can sort of understand announcing without a ship date. But I can't 
> understand announcing without prices. Why not start taking preorders?"

because it's vaporware. they had to announce it before google i/o next
week, where a 'tablet of the highest quality' will be introduced. 

> "No battery life specs for either the ARM or Intel versions? Starting to 
> think this is a hoax."

that part is worrisome.

In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
> 
> Ars Technica:
>
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surfac
> e-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/

I wouldn't presume to judge a product I haven't seen or used. Windows 7
is very good. If Windows 8 is better, they could have a winner.

The name, though. I can judge that. It's not a deal breaker, but
"Surface" is a clumsy and unsexy name for what appears visually to be a
good imitation of the iPad.

In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
replace a defective tablet under warranty.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 00:36:05 -0400, Wes Groleau wrote:

> On 06-18-2012 23:53, nospam quoted/wrote:
>>> >Microsoft web site:http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>>> [snip]
>> the keyboard cover is a fantastic idea.
> 
> The sixth image at the URI above shows another good idea (in my opinion).
> 
> A machine that doesn't prevent a competent user from working on it.

You think it's a good idea that it has a case? Well, I guess I can't argue
with you about that...

Am 19.06.2012 15:13, schrieb Davoud:
> In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
 >
> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
> replace a defective tablet under warranty.

And it's not exactly like the iPad was all glued together. That can be 
opened just as well. And I would almost be willing to take a bet on not 
finding many possibilities for users to do their own 
repairs/enhancements/... in any such device. The constructors really do 
their very best (for all I can say) to leave not even the smallest space 
unused.

Best regards,

Michael

In article <jrq6tn$hcv$1@news.sap-ag.de>, Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> 
wrote:

> Am 19.06.2012 15:13, schrieb Davoud:
> > In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> > Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>  >
> > In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
> > a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
> > what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
> > say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
> > would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
> > replace a defective tablet under warranty.
> 
> And it's not exactly like the iPad was all glued together. That can be 
> opened just as well. And I would almost be willing to take a bet on not 
> finding many possibilities for users to do their own 
> repairs/enhancements/... in any such device. The constructors really do 
> their very best (for all I can say) to leave not even the smallest space 
> unused.


Has anyone read or heard anything about battery life or price?

-- 
PRAY, v.  To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

In article <tom_stiller-5DBC2A.12324119062012@news.individual.net>,
 Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Has anyone read or heard anything about battery life or price?

Price for the ARM version is comparable to competing products, and price 
for the Intel version is comparable to netbooks, or words to that effect.  
No dollar amount was said.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <tom_stiller-5DBC2A.12324119062012@news.individual.net>, Tom
Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Has anyone read or heard anything about battery life or price?

both of those were suspiciously absent from the announcement. 

the only thing they said about price was it would be competitive with
similar products. nothing like stating the obvious.

On 19/06/2012 10:39 AM, Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <tom_stiller-5DBC2A.12324119062012@news.individual.net>,
>   Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone read or heard anything about battery life or price?
>
> Price for the ARM version is comparable to competing products, and price
> for the Intel version is comparable to netbooks, or words to that effect.
> No dollar amount was said.
>
I read the price of the Intel version would be comparable to ultrabook 
pricing not netbook pricing.  Expect to pay $1,000.

Lewis wrote:

> For values of "Standard WIndows 8" that incldue "Cripple-ware Windows 8
> RT Metro only." 


Apple has IOS for mobiles and OS-X for laptops/desktops.

The "enterprise" tablet will be intel based and supposedly run desktop
windows and be able to run desktop executables. (or so I read). This
could be an advantage for MS. On the other hand, it ins't clear how well
the UI will work since it is likely to be a compromise between keyboard
and touch screen. (and it isn't good to have to switch between the two)

With Arm based Windows RT is perhaps a mistake because it should have
been Windows Mobile, compatible with Microsoft's nokia branded phones in
terms of apps. Developpers will not be happy having to develop a version
for nokia phones and one for microsoft tablets.

nospam wrote:

> because it's vaporware. they had to announce it before google i/o next
> week, where a 'tablet of the highest quality' will be introduced. 

Interesting how, the day after, the sobering thoughts come out.  Apple
is generally very good at annoucing products that are nearly ready for
widespread distribution.

The fact that MS's products are still vapourware would indicate that MS
still has bugs/problems and can't start producing them yet. So this is
clearly to have a "met too" foot in the door ahead of Google.


If MS will have 3 operating systems (phones, tablets with RT, and
tables/desktops with real windows), then this is a bad move, especially
since Nokia has been telling people at conferences about how it was a
stargegic move to choose windows because it would be a single operating
system with larger installed base than IOS/OS-X.

In article <4fe0bcfc$0$1776$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > because it's vaporware. they had to announce it before google i/o next
> > week, where a 'tablet of the highest quality' will be introduced. 
> 
> Interesting how, the day after, the sobering thoughts come out.  Apple
> is generally very good at annoucing products that are nearly ready for
> widespread distribution.

true, but for brand new products, apple does pre-announce. the iphone
shipped 6 months later and the ipad was 2 months.

however, apple did announce a lot more details and for the ipad, they
even had demo versions for journalists to play with. microsoft didn't
do any of that.

> The fact that MS's products are still vapourware would indicate that MS
> still has bugs/problems and can't start producing them yet. So this is
> clearly to have a "met too" foot in the door ahead of Google.

that's exactly what it is.

in any event, google i/o should be interesting.

another issue is microsoft is now competing with its own partners. what
do you think asus, acer, lenovo and others are thinking? how motivated
will they be in making a windows tablet, particularly when they have to
pay a steep licensing fee for windows and microsoft does not.

nospam wrote:

> another issue is microsoft is now competing with its own partners. what
> do you think asus, acer, lenovo and others are thinking? how motivated
> will they be in making a windows tablet, particularly when they have to
> pay a steep licensing fee for windows and microsoft does not.


Since they are all producing linux/android tablets, I am not sure that
they mind if Microsoft makes an attempt at pushing windows into the
market because they are not into the windows tablet market.

The PC market is clearly commodity. And Windows has more or less learned
to live with a gazillion configurations and Windows does not move fast.

Tablets and mobiles need to move fast and you need to have tight
integration between hardware gadgets (cameras, gps, movement detectors
etc) and the sofware.

Apple has a very clear advantage here, being able to have very tight
integration between hardware and sofware and good control over the
uniform software on a relatively small number of models.

Google has already noted that advantage and how they were hindered by
the different vendor having different configs.  And Microsoft clearly
saw the advantage of tight integration because they are now making their
own attempt at a hardware/software combo. Better late than never.

But without integration with mobile phones (same apps etc), their RT
model may fail. And it is not clear if the business model will really
have much success. They may be limited to niche markets like Blackberry.

In article <190620121405440438%nospam@nospam.invalid>,
 nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> > Interesting how, the day after, the sobering thoughts come out.  Apple 
> > is generally very good at annoucing products that are nearly ready for 
> > widespread distribution.
> 
> true, but for brand new products, apple does pre-announce. the iphone 
> shipped 6 months later and the ipad was 2 months.

In the case of the iPhone, Jobs said that it was because once they applied 
for FCC certification, the cat was out of the bag, so they might as well 
announce it before the rumor mill started in on it.

Personally, I think it was because they didn't have much else to talk about 
at that particular (2007) MacWorld Expo.

It probably was one of the reasons that Apple ceased to participate in 
MacWorld Expo.  2009 was the last one they were part of.  (Maybe their 
contract extended through the 2009 expo and they were committed until then.)

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Lewis wrote:
> 
> > For values of "Standard WIndows 8" that incldue "Cripple-ware Windows 8
> > RT Metro only." 
> 
> Apple has IOS for mobiles and OS-X for laptops/desktops.
> 
> The "enterprise" tablet will be intel based and supposedly run desktop
> windows and be able to run desktop executables. (or so I read). This
> could be an advantage for MS. On the other hand, it ins't clear how well
> the UI will work since it is likely to be a compromise between keyboard
> and touch screen. (and it isn't good to have to switch between the two)
> 
> With Arm based Windows RT is perhaps a mistake because it should have
> been Windows Mobile, compatible with Microsoft's nokia branded phones in
> terms of apps.

I think you meant "Windows Phone" (currently version 7 or 7.5). "Windows
Mobile" is an earlier OS that is dead.

> Developpers will not be happy having to develop a version for nokia phones
> and one for microsoft tablets.

The ARM-based Windows RT runs Metro, and Metro apps can be written using
langauges such as C# and VB.NET which produce interpreted code, which
will run on both Windows 8 (under Metro) and Windows RT, without
modification (apart from dealing with UI variations).

A single app can be written which will run on an ARM Surface tablet, an
Intel Surface tablet, and any x86 PC which is running Windows 8 that has
appropriate touch interface hardware.

That seems a pretty good (future) installed base to encourage
development.

I don't know what the situation is with Windows Phone 8 and whether it
will run the same apps (with UI adjusted accordingly), similar in
concept to iOS universal apps, or whether the apps will need to be
rebuilt to some extent.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

On 2012-06-18 23:47 , JF Mezei wrote:
> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>
> Ars Technica:
> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>
>
> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No
> mention of mobile network access.


The "2nd" version (Pro) could be interesting to me if it's intel and 
able to run Photoshop.  Also will be 128 GB which is a threshold 
requirement for me.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06-19-2012 09:13, Davoud wrote:
> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
> replace a defective tablet under warranty.

I'd sat your first number is way too low, and your second is too high.

I don't repair CPU chips, but I can do a heck of a lot of other things,
but I don't think I'm one in a quadrillion.

But I was mainly thinking of simple things like replacing a battery.
I wouldn't void my warranty to do it, but I suspect those that would are 
higher than ten percent.

-- 
Wes Groleau

"What progress we are making!  In the Middle Ages, they would have
burnt me; nowadays they are content with burning my books.”
                                     — Sigmund Freud, 1933
"He was never to know that even that was only an illusory progress,
that ten years later they would have burned his body as well.”
                                     — Ernest Jones, 1953

On 06-19-2012 11:47, Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 19.06.2012 15:13, schrieb Davoud:
>> In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
>> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>  >
>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>
> And it's not exactly like the iPad was all glued together. That can be
> opened just as well. And I would almost be willing to take a bet on not
> finding many possibilities for users to do their own
> repairs/enhancements/... in any such device. The constructors really do
> their very best (for all I can say) to leave not even the smallest space
> unused.

The iPad and iPhone don't come apart easily, especially if you don't 
want to mar the appearance.  As for repairs and enhancements, well,
I wouldn't try enhancements, but numerous times I've proved that "no 
user-serviceable parts inside" is a lie.  Especially when it comes to 
changing a battery.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Words of the Wild Wes
   http://Ideas.Lang-Learn.us/WWW

Wes Groleau:
> The iPad and iPhone don't come apart easily, especially if you don't 
> want to mar the appearance.  As for repairs and enhancements, well,
> I wouldn't try enhancements, but numerous times I've proved that "no 
> user-serviceable parts inside" is a lie.

A lie? That's a bit harsh. It's an opinion and a policy. Apple does not
want the average jack or jill opening their iOS thingie to work on it.
Apple considers it to have no user-serviceable parts. That's their
opinion and their policy. That you can change the battery yourself
(voiding the warranty, if any) makes no difference. It's still an
opinion, in that it is meant to guide and not to deceive.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

Am 19.06.2012 18:39, schrieb Michelle Steiner:
> In article <tom_stiller-5DBC2A.12324119062012@news.individual.net>,
>   Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone read or heard anything about battery life or price?
>
> Price for the ARM version is comparable to competing products, and price
> for the Intel version is comparable to netbooks, or words to that effect.
> No dollar amount was said.

For the Intel version, I read about prices being comparable to the upper 
range(!) of UltraBooks (not NetBooks), so I would expect a price tag 
well above $1000, rather above $1500.

Best regards,

Michael

Am 20.06.2012 07:01, schrieb Wes Groleau:
> On 06-19-2012 11:47, Michael Eyd wrote:
>> Am 19.06.2012 15:13, schrieb Davoud:
>>> In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
>>> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>>  >
>>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>>
>> And it's not exactly like the iPad was all glued together. That can be
>> opened just as well. And I would almost be willing to take a bet on not
>> finding many possibilities for users to do their own
>> repairs/enhancements/... in any such device. The constructors really do
>> their very best (for all I can say) to leave not even the smallest space
>> unused.
>
> The iPad and iPhone don't come apart easily, especially if you don't
> want to mar the appearance.

Well, you'll certainly need to know how to disassemble them correctly... 
;-) And you really expect the MS devices to come apart any easier? 
That's something I will believe only after really seeing it... ;-)

> As for repairs and enhancements, well,
> I wouldn't try enhancements, but numerous times I've proved that "no
> user-serviceable parts inside" is a lie.  Especially when it comes to
> changing a battery.

I have already opened an iPhone 3G (daughter inserted SIM card without 
the tray), and I completely dis- and re-assembled two Palm Pre 
smartphones (with the slider making things not easier). So I think I 
have an idea how such devices are built nowadays. And I would be quite 
astonished if MS devices would be any different in this...

Actually, I wouldn't even be too astonished if the shown 'screws' were 
only mockups, to give a more 'technical' appearance... ;-) Judging from 
the picture shown however, it doesn't look like that being the case...

Best regards,

Michael

In article <jrrsn8$cfk$1@news.sap-ag.de>, Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> 
wrote:

> For the Intel version, I read about prices being comparable to the upper 
> range(!) of UltraBooks (not NetBooks),

*nod*  My bad.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.

On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.

Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and 
not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then 
I'll go with it.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:31:51 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
>> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
>
>Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and 
>not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then 
>I'll go with it.
Let me put it this way: the Micro$oft tablet will suck.

Been  down this road too many times with too many Micro$oft prouducts.

On 06-20-2012 01:13, Davoud wrote:
> A lie? That's a bit harsh. It's an opinion and a policy. Apple does not
> want the average jack or jill opening their iOS thingie to work on it.

So in order to discourage people who wouldn't have tried it anyway, the 
make it more difficult for the people who would actually know what to do.

I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or 
Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring 
primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable 
parts inside" message.

-- 
Wes Groleau

    “A man with an experience is never
     at the mercy of a man with an argument.”
                       — Ron Allen

Davoud wrote:
> > A lie? That's a bit harsh. It's an opinion and a policy. Apple does not
> > want the average jack or jill opening their iOS thingie to work on it.

Wes Groleau:
> So in order to discourage people who wouldn't have tried it anyway, the 
> make it more difficult for the people who would actually know what to do.

> I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or 
> Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring 
> primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable 
> parts inside" message.

(Leaving you out, of course.) A thousand other techs who were sure that
they knew just what to do have caused gadget manufacturers no end of
misery as the manufacturers had to tell them a) you ruined it b) you
voided the warranty. I know damned well if you were the manufacturer of
such a device you would have a "no user-serviceable parts inside" label
on it. If not on day one, then by the end of the first month of sales.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

In article <jru3jj$9n4$1@dont-email.me>,
 Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or 
> Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring 
> primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable 
> parts inside" message.

Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean that 
the product is designed to not have a user service it.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <0rm4u7lm04o0vac820narcacjpstnej96a@4ax.com>, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> 
> Let me put it this way: the Micro$oft tablet will suck.

It definitely won't suck - that would make it good at doing something
(being a vaccum cleaner).  ;o)

Helpful Harry  :o)

On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:32:22 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote:

> In article <jru3jj$9n4$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:
> 
>> I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or
>> Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring
>> primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable
>> parts inside" message.
> 
> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean
> that the product is designed to not have a user service it.

But sometimes they take it too far with such a notice.  Replacing fuses 
inside a hifi doesn't require full qualifications in electronics.

I repaired a few hifis in my younger days by looking for dry solder 
joints.  Mind you in those days a decent quality hifi came with a circuit 
diagram, and didn't actually have the "No user serviceable parts inside" 
label.

-- 
Paul Sture

In message <bfmgb9-291.ln1@news.sture.ch> 
  Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 22:32:22 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote:

>> In article <jru3jj$9n4$1@dont-email.me>,
>>  Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or
>>> Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring
>>> primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable
>>> parts inside" message.
>> 
>> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean
>> that the product is designed to not have a user service it.

> But sometimes they take it too far with such a notice.  Replacing fuses 
> inside a hifi doesn't require full qualifications in electronics.

It is also not a task that one wants to encourage general user to
undertake, especially not if there are capacitors nearby waiting to
discharge. As electronics became more common and more complex, the
chances of a user screwing them up completely and or hurting themselves
in the process went up by a rather large factor.


-- 
"It's like those French have a different word for *everything*" - Steve
Martin
I gotta straighten my face This mellow-thighed chick just put my spine
out of place

On 2012-06-20 19:24 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jun 2012 15:31:51 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
>>> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
>>
>> Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and
>> not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then
>> I'll go with it.
> Let me put it this way: the Micro$oft tablet will suck.

You have no idea.

But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad 
then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw 
photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for 
raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.

> Been  down this road too many times with too many Micro$oft prouducts.

They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:

- WinXP
- MS Office suite
- MS Outlook
- MS Access
- Exchange Server
- Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
- Maps and streets (incl. a supplied GPS that works quite well)
- keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).

I don't have this, but it seems very successful with gamers.
- Xbox

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-21 01:32 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <jru3jj$9n4$1@dont-email.me>,
>   Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:
>
>> I and a thousand other electronics techs are not the average Jack or
>> Jill.  But I wasn't calling Apple a liar, per se.  I was referring
>> primarily to products that actually _display_ a "no user-serviceable
>> parts inside" message.
>
> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean that
> the product is designed to not have a user service it.

It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.

And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later 
iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work 
around Apple's bizarre behaviour.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-19 04:12 , Paul Sture wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2012 09:45:10 +0200, Paul Sture wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 18 Jun 2012 23:47:16 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:
>>
>>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx=

>>>
>>> Ars Technica:
>>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-
> unveils-
>> surface-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>>>
>>>
>>> Think of an ipad, with a magic cover, except the cover also has a
>>> keyboard and trackpad on it, and this will run standard Windows 8. No=

>>> mention of mobile network access.
>>>
>>> But Microsoft admits to the advantage of designing your own hardware =
to
>>> match your software, something Apple realised a long time ago.
>>>
>>> So we have MS controlling Nokia for phones and now building its own
>>> tablets. And it claims its Windows OS will run on all 3. Remains to b=
e
>>> seen how well MS can have a single os for all 3 platforms.
>>
>> The hardware looks nice, but is it vapourware?
>>
>> <http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/a-first-look-an=
d-
>> feel-of-microsofts-first-pc/>
>>
>> "Microsoft still isn't ready to let Joe Public get their grubby little=

>> hands on Surface. At the press event, we were given a number of
>> demonstrations, shown a number of non-functional demo units, and given=

>> scant few seconds to touch real working devices. The Intel Core i5-
>> powered Surface for Windows 8 Pro devices were not on display, either;=

>> only the ARM-powered Surface for Windows RT was available. However, th=
e
>> major design points are common between the two."
>
> A few Tweets from John Gruber:
>
> 'Sinofsky: =E2=80=9CNow let me talk about availability and pricing.=E2=80=
=9D Translation:
> =E2=80=9CWe=E2=80=99re not talking about price or availability.=E2=80=9D=
'

MS have chosen to "tease" the marketplace.  They said prices will be=20
comparable.  When they come out we'll see how comparable they are.  And=20
it can mean comparable on any straightforward or convoluted basis.

> "Microsoft could sell a lot of those keyboard covers if they made one f=
or
> the iPad."

There's already a 3rd party market for that.  Yes, MS could, but I doubt =

the existing keyboard is the right shape never mind the right interface. =

Those are things MS could do - but no real need to.  Why help the iPad?

>
> "I can sort of understand announcing without a ship date. But I can't
> understand announcing without prices. Why not start taking preorders?"

A lot of things he doesn't understand, I guess.

> "Even Kickstarter projects have to set prices:"

Who says?

> "No battery life specs for either the ARM or Intel versions? Starting t=
o
> think this is a hoax."

Why? I don't think MS are into the hoax game.  They may be into the=20
"create uncertainty" game (get users to wait despite other offerings=20
such as the Google device in the chute).

It's not like making such a device is beyond the ability of MS.  They=20
have the capital, engineering and supplier/contractors to make such a=20
device.  The real magic is the integration of OS/UI/machine.  MS are not =

all that great in that department - but they may muddle through.  And=20
where the "Pro" version is concerned it could be very attractive to=20
traveling business people who also use the MS Office suite.

It's a good thing that MS are doing this.  Competition is always good=20
for consumers.

--=20
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities.=
"
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-19 09:13 , Davoud wrote:
> In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>>
>> Ars Technica:
>>
>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surfac
>> e-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>
> I wouldn't presume to judge a product I haven't seen or used. Windows 7
> is very good. If Windows 8 is better, they could have a winner.
>
> The name, though. I can judge that. It's not a deal breaker, but
> "Surface" is a clumsy and unsexy name for what appears visually to be a
> good imitation of the iPad.

MS suck at branding.  "Surface"?  "Zune"?

>
> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
> replace a defective tablet under warranty.

This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery 
accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be 
eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In article <gsSdnW0DKf6UTnjSnZ2dnUVZ_qwAAAAA@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > The name, though. I can judge that. It's not a deal breaker, but 
> > "Surface" is a clumsy and unsexy name for what appears visually to be 
> > a good imitation of the iPad.
> 
> MS suck at branding.  "Surface"?  "Zune"?

I understand that UPS drivers prefer the Zune to the iPod because when they 
use them, the device is camouflaged, so their supervisors can't see them.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

Michelle Steiner:
> > Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean that
> > the product is designed to not have a user service it.

Alan Browne:
> It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.

Could be because authorized repair centers know how to repair these
things and the overwhelming majority of consumers do not?

> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later 
> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work 
> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.

I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 2012-06-23 11:10 , Davoud wrote:
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
> Michelle Steiner:
>>> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean that
>>> the product is designed to not have a user service it.
>
> Alan Browne:
>> It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.
>
> Could be because authorized repair centers know how to repair these
> things and the overwhelming majority of consumers do not?

You'd be surprised.  A friend of mine who has little interest in such 
has successfully upgraded his PC (disk drive, memory, added an interface 
card).  Because it was accessible.

If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most 
non-technical users can change those parts.


>
>> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later
>> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work
>> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.
>
> I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
> idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
> about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
> disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
> drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
> comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
> just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.

Unfortunately for those inclined to change common computer parts (disk 
drives in particular) Apple have already made what is a 5 - 10 minute 
task for anyone with a Phillips screwdriver on a PC into a 30 - 45 
minute task requiring 4 or 5 different tools.  (Done it).

With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are 
available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.

Since, at least where I live, Apple's ability to change a hard drive 
seems to be limited to a 3 - 5 day cycle, it's completely unacceptable. 
  When I buy my next iMac I will also purchase in advance of need, all 
the 3rd party cabling needed to replace the disk drive.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06/23/2012 10:30 AM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-19 09:13 , Davoud wrote:
>> In article <4fdff646$0$1279$c3e8da3$c8b7d2e6@news.astraweb.com>, JF
>> Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Microsoft web site: http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/about.aspx
>>>
>>> Ars Technica:
>>>
>>> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/microsoft-unveils-surfac
>>>
>>> e-tablet-powered-by-windows-8/
>>
>> I wouldn't presume to judge a product I haven't seen or used. Windows 7
>> is very good. If Windows 8 is better, they could have a winner.
>>
>> The name, though. I can judge that. It's not a deal breaker, but
>> "Surface" is a clumsy and unsexy name for what appears visually to be a
>> good imitation of the iPad.
>
> MS suck at branding.  "Surface"?  "Zune"?
>
>>
>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>
> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
>
Will the Windows tablets have slots for SD cards? If so that makes them 
more user modifiable than iOS devices. AFAICT you buy the amount of 
storage you want with an iPad and that's it!

I dislike the angle MS is taking with the ARMs. First...no Firefox or 
Chrome. Second the UEFI is locked down (secure boot) so no alternative 
OS(*). I wonder if allowing access to the innards would make them more 
hackable where a clever person can circumvent (jailbreak) MS imposed 
lockdowns.

That being said I would prefer, if buying a new tablet, an iPad or maybe 
an Android over Windows whatever, due to my visceral dislike for Microsoft.

I have a lowly Nook "Tablet". It suits my purposes just fine for now and 
has an SD card slot to increase storage or facilitate booting to another 
OS if I wanted to go down that road ). I don't.

*- The Intel chipped Windows PCs (and tablets?) will allow the user to 
either disable secure boot to install an alternative OS or some Linux 
distros might opt for getting their own key.

In article <IYCdnRMjArZNdnjSnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2012-06-23 11:10 , Davoud wrote:
> > <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Michelle Steiner:
> >>> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to mean that
> >>> the product is designed to not have a user service it.
> >
> > Alan Browne:
> >> It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.
> >
> > Could be because authorized repair centers know how to repair these
> > things and the overwhelming majority of consumers do not?
> 
> You'd be surprised.  A friend of mine who has little interest in such 
> has successfully upgraded his PC (disk drive, memory, added an interface 
> card).  Because it was accessible.
> 
> If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most 
> non-technical users can change those parts.
> 
Which computer that MS produced can allow for that?   :)

Certainly not the new tablets they showed.

> 
> >
> >> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later
> >> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work
> >> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.
> >
> > I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
> > idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
> > about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
> > disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
> > drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
> > comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
> > just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.
> 
> Unfortunately for those inclined to change common computer parts (disk 
> drives in particular) Apple have already made what is a 5 - 10 minute 
> task for anyone with a Phillips screwdriver on a PC into a 30 - 45 
> minute task requiring 4 or 5 different tools.  (Done it).
> 
> With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are 
> available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.
> 
> Since, at least where I live, Apple's ability to change a hard drive 
> seems to be limited to a 3 - 5 day cycle, it's completely unacceptable. 
>   When I buy my next iMac I will also purchase in advance of need, all 
> the 3rd party cabling needed to replace the disk drive.

In all these AIO computers, parts changing is not an easy task.  It is 
because of that design.  I had an HP AIO touchscreen computer, and 
working on it was not going to be easy either.

So as long as you want an AIO, be prepared to have a lot of fun fixing 
them if they break.

On 06/20/2012 03:31 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
>> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
>
> Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and
> not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then
> I'll go with it.

It would be nice if one could buy a Windows RT ARM tablet and wipe 
Windows RT off it altogether or at boot a Linux distro set up for ARM 
tablets on an SD card. This could help create a new wave of open source 
tablet usage.

I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete 
well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some 
sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.

On 06/21/2012 02:44 AM, Helpful Harry wrote:
> In article <0rm4u7lm04o0vac820narcacjpstnej96a@4ax.com>, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>> Let me put it this way: the Micro$oft tablet will suck.
>
> It definitely won't suck - that would make it good at doing something
> (being a vaccum cleaner).  ;o)

Put another way it will suck consumers into buying it regardless of how 
well it runs and how locked down it is. Most consumers care less for 
freedom to do what they would like, such as alternative browsers or OSs. 
If it has an SD card slot it does give the consumer more freedom than 
the iPad in that regard though. The ARM tablets with RT are Microsoft's 
way of competing with Apple using their own closed ecosystem. At least 
Apple has an edge on being there first and having a bunch of apps already.

In article <IYCdnRMjArZNdnjSnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are 
> available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.

Apple doesn't expect any user to go inside the computer, so any changes to 
the innards (e.g., SATA cables) is done with regard for those who do go 
therein.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <gsSdnW0DKf6UTnjSnZ2dnUVZ_qwAAAAA@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
> > a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
> > what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
> > say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
> > would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
> > replace a defective tablet under warranty.
> 
> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery 
> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be 
> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.

what for? very few users care.

On 06-23-2012 10:25, Alan Browne wrote:
> It's a good thing that MS are doing this.  Competition is always good
> for consumers.

In general.  However, note that the release of Kindle Fire and Nook at 
half the price had no effect on the iPad price.

Yes, I understand they have half the capability, but since most people 
only use half the capability....

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Why does everyone call it a “fanny pack" ?
   When was the last time you saw one on a fanny?

On 06-23-2012 12:20, Lloyd wrote:
>   Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most
>> non-technical users can change those parts.
>>
> Which computer that MS produced can allow for that?   :)
>
> Certainly not the new tablets they showed.

How do you know?  Did you try it?  All I saw was that they have
visible screws on the back.  Whether one can do anything inside
after removing them is unknown to most of us.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   Why does everyone call it a “fanny pack" ?
   When was the last time you saw one on a fanny?

On 06/23/2012 01:12 PM, Wes Groleau wrote:
> On 06-23-2012 10:25, Alan Browne wrote:
>> It's a good thing that MS are doing this.  Competition is always good
>> for consumers.
>
> In general.  However, note that the release of Kindle Fire and Nook at
> half the price had no effect on the iPad price.
>
> Yes, I understand they have half the capability, but since most people
> only use half the capability....
>
Would the rumored 7in iPad mean that bookreader platforms have had an 
impact on the iPad itself? I would be tempted to buy a 7in iPad. They 
will surely be cheaper than the current iPad.

In article <js4tnv$qv4$1@dont-email.me>,
 Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 06-23-2012 12:20, Lloyd wrote:
> >   Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >> If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most
> >> non-technical users can change those parts.
> >>
> > Which computer that MS produced can allow for that?   :)
> >
> > Certainly not the new tablets they showed.
> 
> How do you know?  Did you try it?  All I saw was that they have
> visible screws on the back.  Whether one can do anything inside
> after removing them is unknown to most of us.

Did you notice how skinny they are?  :)

On 2012-06-23 13:11 , nospam wrote:
> In article <gsSdnW0DKf6UTnjSnZ2dnUVZ_qwAAAAA@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>>
>> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
>> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
>> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
>
> what for? very few users care.

Android phone users certainly care as many of them need additional flash 
memory added to them.  I've changed batteries on many cell phones over 
time.  Takes 2 minutes.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06/23/2012 02:33 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-23 13:11 , nospam wrote:
>> In article <gsSdnW0DKf6UTnjSnZ2dnUVZ_qwAAAAA@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>>>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>>>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>>>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>>>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>>>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>>>
>>> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
>>> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
>>> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
>>
>> what for? very few users care.
>
> Android phone users certainly care as many of them need additional flash
> memory added to them.  I've changed batteries on many cell phones over
> time.  Takes 2 minutes.

I would rather drive to a qualified store and have a genius change my 
batteries for me. This could mean I can't use my device for a while, but 
I don't care. And if I needed more storage, why didn't I spend more 
money up front. Adding flash memory after the fact just seems wrong as 
it takes things out of the hands of the overprotective corporation. I 
hate freedom :-)

On 2012-06-23 12:23 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> On 06/20/2012 03:31 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
>>> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
>>
>> Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and
>> not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then
>> I'll go with it.
>
> It would be nice if one could buy a Windows RT ARM tablet and wipe
> Windows RT off it altogether or at boot a Linux distro set up for ARM
> tablets on an SD card. This could help create a new wave of open source
> tablet usage.

That will emerge as a byproduct of other tablet ventures in any case.

> I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete
> well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some
> sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.

I'm hoping MS do quite well with it.

" We have to let go of this notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft
   has to lose. "
            -Steve Jobs, 1997.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06/23/2012 03:17 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-23 12:23 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>> On 06/20/2012 03:31 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>>> On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
>>>> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
>>>
>>> Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways and
>>> not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need then
>>> I'll go with it.
>>
>> It would be nice if one could buy a Windows RT ARM tablet and wipe
>> Windows RT off it altogether or at boot a Linux distro set up for ARM
>> tablets on an SD card. This could help create a new wave of open source
>> tablet usage.
>
> That will emerge as a byproduct of other tablet ventures in any case.
>
>> I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete
>> well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some
>> sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.
>
> I'm hoping MS do quite well with it.
>
> " We have to let go of this notion that for Apple to win, Microsoft
>    has to lose. "
>             -Steve Jobs, 1997.

Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft 
losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock 
roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching 
back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft. 
That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.

In article <Aaidndt3ev57lnvSnZ2dnUVZ_uyXnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
> >> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
> >> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
> >
> > what for? very few users care.
> 
> Android phone users certainly care as many of them need additional flash 
> memory added to them. 

most have one card and rarely swap it, if ever. the largest card is 32
gig and you can get double that on an iphone *without* cards. plus
there are issues with running apps off cards which makes it not as
useful as it could be.

> I've changed batteries on many cell phones over 
> time.  Takes 2 minutes.

most people don't. they get a replacement phone when they renew the
contract, many times for less money than a new battery would cost.

the batteries in iphones are rated for 5 years and it's highly unlikely
someone is going to want to use an iphone for anywhere near that long.
that means the *original* 2g iphone is at the end of its useful battery
life.

<http://allthingsd.com/20090624/new-mac-laptops-use-batteries-sealed-for-
power/>

  Hardly anybody buys extra batteries. Research firm NPD estimates that
  fewer than 5% of consumers buy a spare. So, a small trend has begun
  in the industry: More electronic products are being designed with
  their rechargeable batteries sealed inside. For instance, Dell�s
  (DELL) new high-end laptop, the Adamo, has a sealed battery, as does
  the excellent Flip pocket video camera.

On 06/23/2012 03:40 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <Aaidndt3ev57lnvSnZ2dnUVZ_uyXnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
>>>> accessible?  Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
>>>> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
>>>
>>> what for? very few users care.
>>
>> Android phone users certainly care as many of them need additional flash
>> memory added to them.
>
> most have one card and rarely swap it, if ever. the largest card is 32
> gig and you can get double that on an iphone *without* cards. plus
> there are issues with running apps off cards which makes it not as
> useful as it could be.
>
>> I've changed batteries on many cell phones over
>> time.  Takes 2 minutes.
>
> most people don't. they get a replacement phone when they renew the
> contract, many times for less money than a new battery would cost.
>
> the batteries in iphones are rated for 5 years and it's highly unlikely
> someone is going to want to use an iphone for anywhere near that long.
> that means the *original* 2g iphone is at the end of its useful battery
> life.
>
> <http://allthingsd.com/20090624/new-mac-laptops-use-batteries-sealed-for-
> power/>
>
>    Hardly anybody buys extra batteries. Research firm NPD estimates that
>    fewer than 5% of consumers buy a spare. So, a small trend has begun
>    in the industry: More electronic products are being designed with
>    their rechargeable batteries sealed inside. For instance, Dell�s
>    (DELL) new high-end laptop, the Adamo, has a sealed battery, as does
>    the excellent Flip pocket video camera.

Hardly anybody buys CMOS batteries or realizes the bad behavior that a 
dead battery could cause on a mobo that has them.

At the risk of going back on topic, do the Mac OS X platforms using 
extensible firmware interfaces still use some kind of battery to store 
configurations and system time?

In article
<lloydparsons-3E8988.11200523062012@news.eternal-september.org>, Lloyd
<lloydparsons@me.com> wrote:
> In article <IYCdnRMjArZNdnjSnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>  Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > On 2012-06-23 11:10 , Davoud wrote:
> > > <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later
> > >> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work
> > >> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.
> > >
> > > I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
> > > idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
> > > about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
> > > disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
> > > drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
> > > comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
> > > just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.
> > 
> > Unfortunately for those inclined to change common computer parts (disk 
> > drives in particular) Apple have already made what is a 5 - 10 minute 
> > task for anyone with a Phillips screwdriver on a PC into a 30 - 45 
> > minute task requiring 4 or 5 different tools.  (Done it).
> > 
> > With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are 
> > available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.
> > 
> > Since, at least where I live, Apple's ability to change a hard drive 
> > seems to be limited to a 3 - 5 day cycle, it's completely unacceptable. 
> > When I buy my next iMac I will also purchase in advance of need, all 
> > the 3rd party cabling needed to replace the disk drive.
> 
> In all these AIO computers, parts changing is not an easy task.  It is 
> because of that design.  I had an HP AIO touchscreen computer, and 
> working on it was not going to be easy either.
> 
> So as long as you want an AIO, be prepared to have a lot of fun fixing 
> them if they break.

Despite what a few whiners like to think, the vast majority of poeple
don't want to bother and aren't capable of opening up their computers.
Even most Mac Pro models are never opened up by the user. 

Helpful Harry  :o)

nospam wrote:

> the batteries in iphones are rated for 5 years and it's highly unlikely
> someone is going to want to use an iphone for anywhere near that long.

The chemistry in Lithium Polymer batteries starts to lose capacity the
day it is produced and within 2 years, there is apparently a noticeable
degradation of capacity. It is quite possible that the phone remains
usable after 5 years, but its battery autonomy will be much less as time
progresses.

My laptop is more than 2 years old and the battery still seems fine.

Note that exposing battery to heat also degrades it capacity.

*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> At the risk of going back on topic, do the Mac OS X platforms using 
> extensible firmware interfaces still use some kind of battery to store 
> configurations and system time?

Yes. Basic parameters are stored in NVRAM. Apple has not *really* used
EFI mentality (where such parameters would be stored in the EFI GUID
partition).

On 06-23-2012 10:25, Alan Browne wrote:
> 
> It's a good thing that MS are doing this.  Competition is always good
> for consumers.

There's rarely any real competition.

Even ignoring the hardware side, the "big business" companies simply copy
each others' pricing. It's rare for another company to actually offer a
significantly lower price, and that has nothing to do with how much it
really costs to make, but simply that they want to gough as much out of
the customer as possible.

Helpful Harry  :o)

At 23 Jun 2012 12:23:57 -0400 *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> On 06/20/2012 03:31 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> > On 2012-06-20 13:28 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> Let me put it this way: as a Micro$oft customer who has been screwed
> >> over too many times already i'll stiick with my ipad.
> >
> > Stick all you like.  The iPad is short of what I need in a few ways
and
> > not workable for how I would want to use it.  If MS do what I need
then
> > I'll go with it.
> 
> It would be nice if one could buy a Windows RT ARM tablet and wipe
> Windows RT off it altogether or at boot a Linux distro set up for ARM
> tablets on an SD card. This could help create a new wave of open source
> tablet usage.


Um, how is that different than an Android tablet? Why in God's name would
you want to buy hardware encumbered with an included, expensive software
license you don't want to use. It'd be like buying a PC with Windows and
Office preinstalled, and formatting the hard drive to install Linux.

 
> I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete
> well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some
> sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.


"Slick marketing campaigns"?  Are we taking about the same Microsoft that
gave us 'Seinfeld meets Bill Gates'? 

That launched a new mobile OS with a marketing campaign that suggested
the OS was better because it'd make us use our phones less?

The good Microsoft products succeed in spite of MS' "slick marketing",
not because of it!

In article <4fe63fba$0$1527$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > the batteries in iphones are rated for 5 years and it's highly unlikely
> > someone is going to want to use an iphone for anywhere near that long.
> 
> The chemistry in Lithium Polymer batteries starts to lose capacity the
> day it is produced and within 2 years, there is apparently a noticeable
> degradation of capacity. It is quite possible that the phone remains
> usable after 5 years, but its battery autonomy will be much less as time
> progresses.

it won't be as good as new but it will still be usable.

> My laptop is more than 2 years old and the battery still seems fine.

that's the point.

In article <GuydnZN9zucagnvSnZ2dnUVZ_qKdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
*Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:

> At the risk of going back on topic, do the Mac OS X platforms using 
> extensible firmware interfaces still use some kind of battery to store 
> configurations and system time?

yes. here's how to change it. only 13 pages of instructions!
<http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Installing-MacBook-Core-Duo-PRAM-Battery/29
7/1>

and a replacement:
<http://www.ifixit.com/MacBook-Parts/MacBook-PRAM-Battery/IF186-020>

Microsoft may or may not last in the tablet market. But if they do
introduce a couple of innovations while they are in that market, and
others integrate such innovtions (such as that keyboard cover), then we
end up winning.

Microsoft is not a bully monopolistic entity in that market, it is an
"also ran" and may bring forth a few positive things.  While their
product as a whole may not be compelling (mostly due to lack of apps or
pricing), those innovative features will attract attention of the real
competitors.

What I really cannot understand is how can such a large and rich company
 consistently fail to enter the mobile market with a "bang".

Is it a few people at the top who lack the vision to act proactively and
they are always late and hence have to live with many compromises and
bugs or do they really lack smart programmers who have the right coding
philosophy to create modules that are efficient and reliable ?

In article <4fe63fba$0$1527$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> nospam wrote:
> 
> > the batteries in iphones are rated for 5 years and it's highly unlikely
> > someone is going to want to use an iphone for anywhere near that long.
> 
> The chemistry in Lithium Polymer batteries starts to lose capacity the
> day it is produced and within 2 years, there is apparently a noticeable
> degradation of capacity. It is quite possible that the phone remains
> usable after 5 years, but its battery autonomy will be much less as time
> progresses.
> 
> My laptop is more than 2 years old and the battery still seems fine.
> 
> Note that exposing battery to heat also degrades it capacity.

Yep, batteries do degrade (starting the minute they are charged in the
factory), and it is only one of many factors. 

Batteries also can't really be rated for "years" in any reliable way.
They're usually rated for "number of cycales / recharges". The "years"
timescale is used simply because it's meant to be easier for people to
understand, but it's based on an "average" usage and far too many people
don't understand that so start whining when their battery "only lasts 3
years".

The battery in my car is guaranteed for two years with an approximate
lifetime of around five years, but I've just replaced it 10 years after
the previous new one.

Helpful Harry  :o)

In article <4fe64a84$0$1574$c3e8da3$92d0a893@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> What I really cannot understand is how can such a large and rich company
>  consistently fail to enter the mobile market with a "bang".

because steve ballmer is out of touch with the industry. many people
want him to retire.

just look at the kin debacle, particularly its ads. what in the world
were they thinking???

In article <js5mf5$e5q$2@dont-email.me>, Todd Allcock
<elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
> 
> The good Microsoft products succeed in spite of MS' "slick marketing",
> not because of it!

"Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)

Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.

Helpful Harry  :o)

Helpful Harry wrote:

> "Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)

As hard as it is to admit, Mircosoft's "Media Room" product for IPTV, as
used by many telcos seems to be working find and gives superior TV
experience compared to traditional cable. But it isn't cheap because it
requires a gazillion wintel servers to run.

There als also people within Microsoft who know their stuff.  Microsoft
has not just some microsoft weenies, they also have real engineers who
understand CPU architectures and performance. But it gets lost at some
level which dictate the good stuff be covered with bad tasting icing.


> Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.

Well, that is an understatement. Apple exists because of excellent
marketing that has created a religious like desire for those shiny iToys
with the lighted Apple logo.  It is a very different type of marketing
compared to Microsoft which uses the "sheep" mentality of telling you
that you have to follow the herd otherwise you will be adrift and won't
be able to connect to the internet etc.

But it is marketing nevertheless.

One thing about Apple is that it does make desirable product. MS
doesn't. MS uses its monopoly to tell you to buy their products to be
"compatible" even if their products are inferior.

On 2012-06-23 22:08 , Helpful Harry wrote:
> In article <js5mf5$e5q$2@dont-email.me>, Todd Allcock
> <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>>
>> The good Microsoft products succeed in spite of MS' "slick marketing",
>> not because of it!
>
> "Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)

Not nearly as crappy as "Helpful Harry".

> Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.

What? The incessant advertising in television commercials, product 
placement on television and movies; adverts in high end magazines and 
most newspapers and most read news sites, the expensive Apple stores in 
prime locations... to scratch the surface.

There are companies that would salivate at the "almost no marketing" 
budget of Apple.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.

I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph 
before.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In the last episode of
<HelpfulHarry-2406121153110001@203-118-187-161.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
HelpfulHarry@BusyWorking.com (Helpful Harry) said:

>Batteries also can't really be rated for "years" in any reliable way.
>They're usually rated for "number of cycales / recharges"

Even this is a gross over-simplification, draining the battery to 80%
and recharging each day will do far less damage to the battery than
draining it to 10% and recharging each day. It's really more a case of
how much energy you pass through the battery.

The heat of the battery during recharge cycles is also a significant
factor.

-- 
If I were still loyal to the Goa'uld, you would know it.
It would be immediately apparent as I would not hesitate to kill you where you sit.
 -- Teal'c

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad 
>then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw 
>photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for 
>raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.
If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.

>They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>
>- WinXP
which crashes often.
>- MS Office suite
which crashes often
>- MS Outlook
which crashes often
>- MS Access
which crashes often.
>- Exchange Server
which crashes often.
>- Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
which crashes often.
>- Maps and streets (incl. a supplied GPS that works quite well)
which crashes often.
>- keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
which crashes often.

>
>I don't have this, but it seems very successful with gamers.
>- Xbox
You didn't have one when they had many issues?

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:23:57 -0400, *Hemidactylus*
<ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete 
>well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some 
>sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.
>
You can take it to the bank that Micro$oft will do a belly flop on
this.  Insead of doing a superior tablet and a superior Operating
system it will do a mediocre tablet and a mediocre operating system.

In article <4fe67f38$0$1578$c3e8da3$50776f34@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Helpful Harry wrote:
> > 
> > "Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)
> 
> As hard as it is to admit, 
<snip> 

It was a joke.




> > Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.
> 
> Well, that is an understatement. Apple exists because of excellent
> marketing that has created a religious like desire for those shiny iToys
> with the lighted Apple logo.  It is a very different type of marketing
> compared to Microsoft which uses the "sheep" mentality of telling you
> that you have to follow the herd otherwise you will be adrift and won't
> be able to connect to the internet etc.
> 
> But it is marketing nevertheless.
> 
> One thing about Apple is that it does make desirable product. MS
> doesn't. MS uses its monopoly to tell you to buy their products to be
> "compatible" even if their products are inferior.

Apple does very little actual marketing. They make a few adverts which
don't play very often, but that's about it. They tend to rely on resellers
to advertise for them (admitedly often with Apple-supplied adverts).

Helpful Harry  :o)

In article <Nq6dnVEpT7kFHXvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2012-06-23 22:08 , Helpful Harry wrote:
> >  
> > Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.
> 
> What? The incessant advertising in television commercials, product 
> placement on television and movies; 

Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.


> adverts in high end magazines and most newspapers and most read news sites, 
> the expensive Apple stores in prime locations... to scratch the surface.
> 
> There are companies that would salivate at the "almost no marketing" 
> budget of Apple.

Most advertising is done by the resellers using Apple supplied material,
not by Apple iteself.

Helpful Harry   :o)

In article <ue4du7p1c7qd5m05ft57idvi6bksr7n56l@4ax.com>, DevilsPGD
<boogabooga@crazyhat.net> wrote:

> In the last episode of
> <HelpfulHarry-2406121153110001@203-118-187-161.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
> HelpfulHarry@BusyWorking.com (Helpful Harry) said:
> 
> >Batteries also can't really be rated for "years" in any reliable way.
> >They're usually rated for "number of cycales / recharges"
> 
> Even this is a gross over-simplification, draining the battery to 80%
> and recharging each day will do far less damage to the battery than
> draining it to 10% and recharging each day. It's really more a case of
> how much energy you pass through the battery.

Depends on the type of battery. The newer batteries used by Apple these
days have no significant effect caused by how much they are drained before
recharge. The "memory effect" of the old batteries has been gone for a
while now.



> The heat of the battery during recharge cycles is also a significant
> factor.

There are MANY factors.

Helpful Harry  :o)

Helpful Harry wrote:

> Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
> used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
> art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.

I really really doubt that. The second a laptop is positionned so you
can see the lighted apple logo in a TV or movie, it screams "product
placement".

If they got no money from it, they would hide or digitally erase the
Apple logo from the iToys.

Consider movies aired on the US station TBS (headquartered next to Coke)
in Atlanta). When Coke pays for advertising, any references to Pepsi
products are digitally removed from the movie.  In Thomas Crowne
Affair, ren� russo drinks pepsi in a blatant product placement. But when
aired on TBS, the Pepsi cans are digitally replaced with no name brushed
aluminium cans.

Similarly,  "Golden Eye" scene where the tank goes through a truck full
of Perrier cans, when aired on TBS, they digitally remove all the
Perrier logos.

So don't think for a minute that any obvious use of Apple computers or
iphones in movies or TV shows aren't lucrative product placements and
Apple pays for those.


> Most advertising is done by the resellers using Apple supplied material,
> not by Apple iteself.


That is perhaps the case in NZ, but not in north america where Apple Inc
does a hell of a lot of advertising, billboards etc.

Helpful Harry wrote:

> Depends on the type of battery. The newer batteries used by Apple these
> days have no significant effect caused by how much they are drained before
> recharge. The "memory effect" of the old batteries has been gone for a
> while now.


Lithium ion or Polymer batteries can be damaged permanently if
discharged below a certain level. This is why there is circuitry in them
to cut off current flow when voltage drops below a certain value.  (for
an 11.1 system, that cut off is just under 8.5 volts (this consists of
3* 3.7 v batteries).

So when they say you are at 20% left on a battery, it isn't 20% of the
total battery capacity, but 20% before you reach that level when voltage
drops below cut off. There would still be plenty of power left in the
battery, but using it would damage the chemistry permanently.

Also, heat during recharge will damage the chemistry and reduce its
lifetime. Same if you leave the laptop in a car in the summer.

In article <4fe6b9b3$0$1559$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Helpful Harry wrote:
> 
> > Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
> > used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
> > art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.
> 
> I really really doubt that. The second a laptop is positionned so you
> can see the lighted apple logo in a TV or movie, it screams "product
> placement".
> 
> If they got no money from it, they would hide or digitally erase the
> Apple logo from the iToys.

Whatever nonsense you want to believe.  :o\

Helpful Harry  :o)

In article <4fe6ba82$0$1374$c3e8da3$9deca2c3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Helpful Harry wrote:
> 
> > Depends on the type of battery. The newer batteries used by Apple these
> > days have no significant effect caused by how much they are drained before
> > recharge. The "memory effect" of the old batteries has been gone for a
> > while now.
> 
> 
> Lithium ion or Polymer batteries can be damaged permanently if
> discharged below a certain level. This is why there is circuitry in them
> to cut off current flow when voltage drops below a certain value.  (for
> an 11.1 system, that cut off is just under 8.5 volts (this consists of
> 3* 3.7 v batteries).
> 
> So when they say you are at 20% left on a battery, it isn't 20% of the
> total battery capacity, but 20% before you reach that level when voltage
> drops below cut off. There would still be plenty of power left in the
> battery, but using it would damage the chemistry permanently.
> 
> Also, heat during recharge will damage the chemistry and reduce its
> lifetime. Same if you leave the laptop in a car in the summer.

Whatever nonsense you want to believe.  :o\

Helpful Harry  :o)

In message <4fe6b9b3$0$1559$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com> 
  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Helpful Harry wrote:

>> Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
>> used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
>> art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.

> I really really doubt that. The second a laptop is positionned so you
> can see the lighted apple logo in a TV or movie, it screams "product
> placement".

You can *doubt* ut all you want, but Apple doesn't pay for product
placement. They have done in the past, but it's been at least 5 years.

> If they got no money from it, they would hide or digitally erase the
> Apple logo from the iToys.

Which also happens (se all the Apple gear in this last season of 2 1/2
men for example).

> Consider movies aired on the US station TBS (headquartered next to Coke)
> in Atlanta). When Coke pays for advertising, any references to Pepsi
> products are digitally removed from the movie.  In Thomas Crowne
> Affair, rené russo drinks pepsi in a blatant product placement. But when
> aired on TBS, the Pepsi cans are digitally replaced with no name brushed
> aluminium cans.

That should be a criminal offense, but that's probably just me.

> So don't think for a minute that any obvious use of Apple computers or
> iphones in movies or TV shows aren't lucrative product placements and
> Apple pays for those.

You would be wrong.

-- 
IT WOULD BE A MILLION TO ONE CHANCE, said Death. EXACTLY A MILLION TO
ONE CHANCE.  'Oh,' said the Bursar, intensely relieved. 'Oh dear. What a
shame.' --Eric
Love is strange and you have to learn to take the crunchy with the
smooth I suppose

<BG@yahoo.com> wrote:

> You can take it to the bank that Micro$oft will do a belly flop on
> this.  Insead of doing a superior tablet and a superior Operating
> system it will do a mediocre tablet and a mediocre operating system.

But Microsoft has made a fortune from mediocre software. My guess, for
what it's worth, is that the Pro model may find some success as a
Windows ultrabook with a touch screen, but the RT model will probably
flop as a competitor to the iPad. 

Anybody have a guess as to when they'll ship, given that Microsoft
apparently doesn't have a truly functional prototype of either model
yet? 

In article 
<HelpfulHarry-2406121913210001@203-118-187-189.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
 HelpfulHarry@BusyWorking.com (Helpful Harry) wrote:

> In article <4fe6b9b3$0$1559$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Helpful Harry wrote:
> > 
> > > Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
> > > used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
> > > art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.
> > 
> > I really really doubt that. The second a laptop is positionned so you
> > can see the lighted apple logo in a TV or movie, it screams "product
> > placement".
> > 
> > If they got no money from it, they would hide or digitally erase the
> > Apple logo from the iToys.
> 
> Whatever nonsense you want to believe.  :o\
> 
> Helpful Harry  :o)

Don't be an asshole Harry. I've seen movies where an obvious Mac has had 
a sticker put over the logo. I have no idea why. Apple  claim they 
"don't pay" for product placement, but that can mean anything. Think 
about Bill Clinton's definitions of "is." 

If the art department of a major tv show or movie calls Apple and asks 
"can we borrow a couple of MacBooks and and an iMac" and Apple supplies 
them, that's technically not sex I guess. But Apple gets a credit. You 
see that in Fringe. Then there was Entourage; iMacs all over Ari's (the 
Jeremy Piven character) office; MacBook Pros all over the boys' houses. 
In one episode, they even went to an Apple store. Did Apple pay for any 
of this? Oh no sir, they did  not.
-- 

.... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 18:14:17 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Note that exposing battery to heat also degrades it capacity.

You aren't kidding.  Battery life in the tropics was pretty abysmal, and 
the humidity in the rainy season probably didn't help either.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2012-06-24 00:56 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad
>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw
>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for
>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.
> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>
>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>>
>> - WinXP
> which crashes often.

    False.

>> - MS Office suite
> which crashes often

    False.


>> - MS Outlook
> which crashes often

    False.

>> - MS Access
> which crashes often.

    False.

>> - Exchange Server
> which crashes often.

    False.


>> - Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
> which crashes often.

    False.


>> - Maps and streets (incl. a supplied GPS that works quite well)
> which crashes often.

    False. Only issue is it sometimes (a couple times per year) does not 
drive the GPS widget properly.  Restart and all is fine.

>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
> which crashes often.

    Tell me how a keyboard crashes?  A mouse?


>
>>
>> I don't have this, but it seems very successful with gamers.
>> - Xbox
> You didn't have one when they had many issues?

     The only issue MS has with them is selling them like hotcakes.

Your kneejerk replies above ("Crashes often") to everything, esp. 
products I use often just proves you're one of those ranters with a sad 
life behind and ahead of you.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-24 01:53 , Helpful Harry wrote:
> In article <Nq6dnVEpT7kFHXvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2012-06-23 22:08 , Helpful Harry wrote:
>>>
>>> Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.
>>
>> What? The incessant advertising in television commercials, product
>> placement on television and movies;
>
> Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product
> used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for the
> art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.

Apple, in fact, have people working hard to place those products in 
shows and movies.  They don't pay the producers for the placement, but 
they do pay Apple marketing people to assure placement.

>> adverts in high end magazines and most newspapers and most read news sites,
>> the expensive Apple stores in prime locations... to scratch the surface.
>>
>> There are companies that would salivate at the "almost no marketing"
>> budget of Apple.
>
> Most advertising is done by the resellers using Apple supplied material,
> not by Apple iteself.

Bwarfff!  Apple stores are owned and operated by Apple.

Apple advertising is created by and for Apple, and paid distribution of 
Apple advertising is paid by Apple.

QUOTE

To remain competitive, the Company believes that continual investment in 
research and development and marketing and advertising is critical to
the development and sale of innovative products and technologies.

/QUOTE
Source:  Apple Q2 FY12 Form 10-Q



-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-24 02:54 , JF Mezei wrote:

> So don't think for a minute that any obvious use of Apple computers or
> iphones in movies or TV shows aren't lucrative product placements and
> Apple pays for those.

Apple does not pay producers.

Apple does pay Apple marketing people to push for placement.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad 
>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw 
>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for 
>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.
> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
> 
>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>> 
>> - WinXP
> which crashes often.

Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured some 
crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable. I have it 
installed on two machines here and neither of them has crashed in well over 
three months. I support a number of users who still use XP; their stuff 
crashes more often than mine, but the vast majority of their crashes are user 
error.

>> - MS Office suite
> which crashes often

Not any more. Office 97 was horrid. Office 2000, better. Office 2003, quite 
good. Office 2007 has _never_ crashed on me. Not even once, and I've got it 
installed on XP, Vista, and Win7 machines. Office 2010 appears to be just as 
stable, but I haven't had the experience with it that I do with Office 2007. 
Even my users, who can crash almost anything, can't crash Office 2007.

>> - MS Outlook
> which crashes often

I can't remember the last time that Outlook, any version, crashed. It's part 
of Office, and no member of the core functions of Office 2007 (the Big Five: 
Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access, Outlook) has crashed on me. Period.

>> - MS Access
> which crashes often.

That would be part of Office's Big Five. None of the Big Five have crashed on 
me, ever, since I've installed Office 2007.

>> - Exchange Server
> which crashes often.

The problems of Exchange Server are many and quite serious. Said problems do 
not, repeat, DO NOT, include random crashes. At least not any version of 
Exchange Server which I've installed since 2003.

>> - Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
> which crashes often.

How on _Earth_ did you get Visio to crash? I've never seen even old version 
of Visio crash!

>> - Maps and streets (incl. a supplied GPS that works quite well)
> which crashes often.

Don't use that, no comment.

>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
> which crashes often.

How can you crash a _mouse_?

> 
>> 
>> I don't have this, but it seems very successful with gamers.
>> - Xbox
> You didn't have one when they had many issues?

SUre, there were, and are still, problems with Xbox systems, but they don't 
come close to the level you imply.

Sorry, man, but at best you're living in the past (1997 is calling...) and it 
appears that you simply lack experience with the current standard.

-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
(in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):

> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> 
>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
> 
> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph 
> before.
> 
> 

You need to lighten up a little.

-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

On 06/24/2012 11:01 AM, J.J. O'Shea wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
> (in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>
>> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>
>>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
>>
>> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph
>> before.
>>
>>
>
> You need to lighten up a little.

Hey, I'm the grumpy Redmond basher, so maybe I should :-)

On 06/24/2012 01:50 AM, Helpful Harry wrote:
> In article <4fe67f38$0$1578$c3e8da3$50776f34@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei
> <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Helpful Harry wrote:
>>>
>>> "Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)
>>
>> As hard as it is to admit,
> <snip>
>
> It was a joke.
>
>
>
>
>>> Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.
>>
>> Well, that is an understatement. Apple exists because of excellent
>> marketing that has created a religious like desire for those shiny iToys
>> with the lighted Apple logo.  It is a very different type of marketing
>> compared to Microsoft which uses the "sheep" mentality of telling you
>> that you have to follow the herd otherwise you will be adrift and won't
>> be able to connect to the internet etc.
>>
>> But it is marketing nevertheless.
>>
>> One thing about Apple is that it does make desirable product. MS
>> doesn't. MS uses its monopoly to tell you to buy their products to be
>> "compatible" even if their products are inferior.
>
> Apple does very little actual marketing. They make a few adverts which
> don't play very often, but that's about it. They tend to rely on resellers
> to advertise for them (admitedly often with Apple-supplied adverts).

I do recall the old Mac vs. PC adverts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78xwTDrUR04

On 06/23/2012 10:51 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-23 22:08 , Helpful Harry wrote:
>> In article <js5mf5$e5q$2@dont-email.me>, Todd Allcock
>> <elecconnec@AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> The good Microsoft products succeed in spite of MS' "slick marketing",
>>> not because of it!
>>
>> "Good Microsoft products"?!?!?  That's another of those oxy-morons.  ;o)
>
> Not nearly as crappy as "Helpful Harry".
>
>> Apple's products succeed with almost no marketing.
>
> What? The incessant advertising in television commercials, product
> placement on television and movies; adverts in high end magazines and
> most newspapers and most read news sites, the expensive Apple stores in
> prime locations... to scratch the surface.
>
> There are companies that would salivate at the "almost no marketing"
> budget of Apple.

Can we say "Sex in the City"? I do notice the Apple emblem often on TV 
and in movies.

In article 
<HelpfulHarry-2406121753410001@203-118-187-6.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
 HelpfulHarry@BusyWorking.com (Helpful Harry) wrote:

> Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product 
> used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for 
> the art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.

Then why does Apple get mentioned in the "Thank you" section of credits on 
TV shows and movies in which Apple products appear?

> Most advertising is done by the resellers using Apple supplied material,
> not by Apple iteself.

In the USA, Apple advertises regularly, some would say heavily, on both 
national broadcast networks and cable networks.  The current crop of iPad 
and iPhone ads, as well as the previous "I'm a Mac" ads and the 
dancing-silhouette iPod ads, were all paid for by Apple, not by resellers.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 06/24/2012 12:59 AM, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 12:23:57 -0400, *Hemidactylus*
> <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm hoping Microsoft belly flops hard on this venture and don't compete
>> well with Apple or Android platforms. They will be able to lure some
>> sheep with their slick marketing campaigns though.
>>
> You can take it to the bank that Micro$oft will do a belly flop on
> this.  Insead of doing a superior tablet and a superior Operating
> system it will do a mediocre tablet and a mediocre operating system.

I admittedly use Windows 7 on several machines. But not very often. My 
early impression is that Windows 8 would be a mobile friendly skin over 
a mostly Windows 7 gut and push Metro on the flock.

Why should anyone migrate from Windows 7, unless they must keep up with 
the new stuff. I sate this need by installing Linux every 6 months or 
so. I am more tempted to upgrade to Mountain Lion on my Mini than 
Windows 8 on my Windows machines.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:44:42 -0400, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
>> which crashes often.
>
>    Tell me how a keyboard crashes?  A mouse?
What protected world do you live in where you've never
had a mouse and/or keyboard die?

I've had too many micro$oft mice/keyboard die over the years.

Let me guess......you have lots of Micro$oft stock?

i have too many gripes with Micro$oft to list here.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
<try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
>(in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad 
>>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw 
>>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for 
>>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.
>> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
>> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>> 
>>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>>> 
>>> - WinXP
>> which crashes often.
>
>Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured some 
>crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable. 
Not on this planet.   

In article <4fe6b9b3$0$1559$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Consider movies aired on the US station TBS (headquartered next to Coke) 
> in Atlanta). When Coke pays for advertising, any references to Pepsi 
> products are digitally removed from the movie.  In Thomas Crowne Affair, 
> ren� russo drinks pepsi in a blatant product placement. But when aired 
> on TBS, the Pepsi cans are digitally replaced with no name brushed 
> aluminium cans.
> 
> Similarly,  "Golden Eye" scene where the tank goes through a truck full 
> of Perrier cans, when aired on TBS, they digitally remove all the 
> Perrier logos.

There's no evidence that either has happened.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 06/24/2012 12:25 PM, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
>> (in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):
>>
>>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad
>>>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw
>>>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for
>>>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained reason.
>>> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
>>> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>>>
>>>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>>>>
>>>> - WinXP
>>> which crashes often.
>>
>> Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured some
>> crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable.
> Not on this planet.

XP has worked well enough for many to stubbornly cling to it even as the 
day MS pulls the support plug looms. Vista was strongly disliked. 
Windows 7 is OK. Windows 8 seems like Metro-style window dressing for 
the tablet market. As people are forced away from XP I wonder how many 
will adopt Win7 vs. Win8.

On 6/24/12 10:01 AM, in article js7a3k19pg@news3.newsguy.com, "J.J. O'Shea"
<try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
> (in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):
> 
>> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>> 
>>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
>> 
>> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph
>> before.
>> 
>> 
> 
> You need to lighten up a little.

Are you kidding?!?

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:25:48 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
(in article <hqfeu71onkoqmfso35gq0q3vm83eg9j9ph@4ax.com>):

> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
>> (in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):
>> 
>>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad 
>>>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw 
>>>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for 
>>>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained 
>>>> reason.
>>> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
>>> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>>> 
>>>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>>>> 
>>>> - WinXP
>>> which crashes often.
>> 
>> Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured 
>> some 
>> crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable. 
> Not on this planet.   
> 

Actually... yes, right here, on Earth. I'm looking at the evidence right now. 
One machine is a Dell Optiplex; it had number of issues early on, but they 
were all due to hardware (and are why I will never, ever, buy another Dell) 
and once the hardware issues were resolved it has been quite stable. It has a 
Pentium 4 CPU, 2 GB of RAM, 500 GB of hard disk, two optical drives (a DVD 
burner and a DVD combo drive), a low-end ATI video card, and runs WinXP SP3 
and does not give trouble. One machine is a machine I built myself, from a 
MSI motherboard, a Pentium 4, 3 GB of RAM, one DVD burner, 650 GB of disk, 
and a low-end ATI video card. It runs WinXP SP3 and does not give trouble. 
It's a pity that you have problems with XP, but not everyone does. This is 
the plain fact.

-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:42:19 -0400, Hemidactylus* wrote
(in article <UN2dncGZbJD23nrSnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@giganews.com>):

> On 06/24/2012 12:25 PM, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
>> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
>>> (in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
>>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad
>>>>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix raw
>>>>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for
>>>>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained 
>>>>> reason.
>>>> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
>>>> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>>>> 
>>>>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their price:
>>>>> 
>>>>> - WinXP
>>>> which crashes often.
>>> 
>>> Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured 
>>> some
>>> crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable.
>> Not on this planet.
> 
> XP has worked well enough for many to stubbornly cling to it even as the 
> day MS pulls the support plug looms. Vista was strongly disliked. 
> Windows 7 is OK. Windows 8 seems like Metro-style window dressing for 
> the tablet market. As people are forced away from XP I wonder how many 
> will adopt Win7 vs. Win8.
> 
> 

I would say that most will go with Win7.

-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:42:53 -0400, George Kerby wrote
(in article <CC0CADBD.896E0%ghost_topper@hotmail.com>):

> 
> 
> 
> On 6/24/12 10:01 AM, in article js7a3k19pg@news3.newsguy.com, "J.J. O'Shea"
> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
>> (in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>> 
>>> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>>>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>>>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>>>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>>>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
>>> 
>>> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph
>>> before.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> You need to lighten up a little.
> 
> Are you kidding?!?
> 

Nope.

-- 
email to oshea dot j dot j at gmail dot com.

On 06/24/2012 12:24 PM, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:44:42 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
>>> which crashes often.
>>
>>     Tell me how a keyboard crashes?  A mouse?
> What protected world do you live in where you've never
> had a mouse and/or keyboard die?
>
> I've had too many micro$oft mice/keyboard die over the years.
>
> Let me guess......you have lots of Micro$oft stock?
>
> i have too many gripes with Micro$oft to list here.

Is that why you're using Forte Agent which is a Windows-friendly newsreader?

In article <michelle-846515.09163824062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article 
> <HelpfulHarry-2406121753410001@203-118-187-6.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz>,
>  HelpfulHarry@BusyWorking.com (Helpful Harry) wrote:
> 
> > Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the product 
> > used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually comes for 
> > the art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.
> 
> Then why does Apple get mentioned in the "Thank you" section of credits on 
> TV shows and movies in which Apple products appear?

That's your evidence that Apple pays for the product placement? A 
mention in the "Thank you" sections of the credits?

-- 
PRAY, v.  To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

On 06/24/2012 12:42 PM, George Kerby wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/24/12 10:01 AM, in article js7a3k19pg@news3.newsguy.com, "J.J. O'Shea"
> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
>> (in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>>
>>> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>>
>>>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>>>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>>>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>>>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>>>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
>>>
>>> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph
>>> before.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You need to lighten up a little.
>
> Are you kidding?!?

One factor that can go into buying a product is opinion of the 
corporation that provides the product. I dislike Facebook so don't use 
their product. I dislike Microsoft, but still use their product on 
occasion or when absolutely necessary or required for reasons outside my 
control. But I can still dislike Microsoft. I can and should separate MS 
from their product. I love Publisher. It is the greatest thing since 
sliced bread. I dislike Ballmer.

I think Paul Allen is pretty cool, mostly for stuff he's done outside of 
his work at Microsoft, aside from the somewhat recent patent trolling 
onslaught.

I'm ambivalent about Gates.

Michelle Steiner wrote:

> In the USA, Apple advertises regularly, some would say heavily, on both 
> national broadcast networks and cable networks.  The current crop of iPad 
> and iPhone ads, as well as the previous "I'm a Mac" ads and the 
> dancing-silhouette iPod ads, were all paid for by Apple, not by resellers.


However, for the iPhone, there are also many ads that are co-sponsored
by Apple and a carrier. So when Verizon advertises it has the iPhone,
Apple pays part of that advertisement.

If Best Buy advertises that it sells the iPhone or other iToys, Apple
helps pay for those ads. This is standard practice.

Apple doesn't have the cobranding like intel or microsoft however.
Adding the "intel inside" logo and sound on a Dell TV add got Intel to
help pay for the ad. Same for showing the "Windows" logo with MS helping
fund the ad.

Tom Stiller wrote:

> That's your evidence that Apple pays for the product placement? A 
> mention in the "Thank you" sections of the credits?


"Promotional consideration" means "product placement by".


Do you know that for a James Bond movie, about half the revenues are
from product placement deals ?

In "Die another day", Bombardier bragged about bagging a big product
placement contract to feature its snowmobiles. Couple of million
dollars' worth.  The Bombardier logo appeared for a couple of seconds.

Even back in the early bond films, product placement was big business.
And if you look at "Moonraker", you'll see product placements
everywhere. (billboards that you see are not local ones, but ones put up
for the movie).

If Apple doesn't pay for product placements, producers will feature
computers and phones from a company that does.

In Casino Royale (and I think the other one), the movie studio was onwed
by Sony, so you got to see many sony products featured and none from
competitors.

For the next one, I am not sure who will be featured because of the MGM
bankrupcy/restructuring. They may be free agents and able to seek
product placements from anyone, at which point, it is possble we'll see
iPhones and other Apple products.

*Hemidactylus* wrote:

> I'm ambivalent about Gates.

No matter what you think of Gates, since he has left Microsoft, the
company appears to have stagnated, without vision.

In article <4fe74f46$0$1551$c3e8da3$12bcf670@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > In the USA, Apple advertises regularly, some would say heavily, on both 
> > national broadcast networks and cable networks.  The current crop of iPad 
> > and iPhone ads, as well as the previous "I'm a Mac" ads and the 
> > dancing-silhouette iPod ads, were all paid for by Apple, not by resellers.
> 
> However, for the iPhone, there are also many ads that are co-sponsored
> by Apple and a carrier. So when Verizon advertises it has the iPhone,
> Apple pays part of that advertisement.

That has nothing to do with what I wrote.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <tom_stiller-A52E78.12531524062012@news.individual.net>,
 Tom Stiller <tom_stiller@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Apple does not pay for product placement nor supply 99% of the 
> > > product used in TV , movies, other advertising. That product usually 
> > > comes for the art department whisch uses Apple equipemtn.
> > 
> > Then why does Apple get mentioned in the "Thank you" section of 
> > credits on TV shows and movies in which Apple products appear?
> 
> That's your evidence that Apple pays for the product placement? A 
> mention in the "Thank you" sections of the credits?

I can see why you thought that that's what I meant.  I was replying to the 
"nor supply 99% of the product...", not to the "does not pay for product 
placement".

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <4fe75132$0$1649$c3e8da3$33881b6a@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> If Apple doesn't pay for product placements, producers will feature
> computers and phones from a company that does.

Apple rarely, if ever, pays for product placement; however, it does supply 
the product in many instances.  In some cases, though, the actor, director, 
producer, set designer, or whoever, places an Apple product in the scene or 
set because he or she is an Apple fan.  Case in point was Harry Anderson in 
Night Court.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 06-24-2012 00:56, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> - WinXP
> which crashes often.
>> - MS Office suite
> which crashes often
>> - MS Outlook
> which crashes often
>> - MS Access
> which crashes often.
>> - Exchange Server
> which crashes often.
>> - Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
> which crashes often.

None of these have ever crashed for me in _daily_ use for seven years.
You must have last used one in the Windows NT or earlier days.  They
WERE abysmal back then.

Correction: Access does crash if you let the file size get too big, or 
if you don't occasionally "compact and repair."  But that isn't "often"

>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
> which crashes often.

Oh, I see now.  You are a recording, posting without reading.


-- 
Wes Groleau

Change is inevitable.  We need to learn that “inevitable" is
neither a synonym for “good" nor for “bad.”

On 2012-06-24 15:37 , Wes Groleau wrote:
> On 06-24-2012 00:56, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> - WinXP
>> which crashes often.
>>> - MS Office suite
>> which crashes often
>>> - MS Outlook
>> which crashes often
>>> - MS Access
>> which crashes often.
>>> - Exchange Server
>> which crashes often.
>>> - Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
>> which crashes often.
>
> None of these have ever crashed for me in _daily_ use for seven years.
> You must have last used one in the Windows NT or earlier days.  They
> WERE abysmal back then.

He's just a blowhard.
>
> Correction: Access does crash if you let the file size get too big, or
> if you don't occasionally "compact and repair."  But that isn't "often"
>
>>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
>> which crashes often.
>
> Oh, I see now.  You are a recording, posting without reading.

I crashed my mouse once.  I was driving it on the highway and ...


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-24 12:24 , BG@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:44:42 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
>>> which crashes often.
>>
>>     Tell me how a keyboard crashes?  A mouse?
> What protected world do you live in where you've never
> had a mouse and/or keyboard die?
>
> I've had too many micro$oft mice/keyboard die over the years.

No but my Apple Trackpad just died a mere week after the warranty expired.

>
> Let me guess......you have lots of Micro$oft stock?

Nope.  There's likely some mixed in my technologies portfolio in one of 
several RSP's I have, but it would be a small component overall.


> i have too many gripes with Micro$oft to list here.

Get out of mommy's basement.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06/24/2012 03:42 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2012-06-24 15:37 , Wes Groleau wrote:
>> On 06-24-2012 00:56, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> - WinXP
>>> which crashes often.
>>>> - MS Office suite
>>> which crashes often
>>>> - MS Outlook
>>> which crashes often
>>>> - MS Access
>>> which crashes often.
>>>> - Exchange Server
>>> which crashes often.
>>>> - Visio (a bit expensive.  No a lot expensive).
>>> which crashes often.
>>
>> None of these have ever crashed for me in _daily_ use for seven years.
>> You must have last used one in the Windows NT or earlier days.  They
>> WERE abysmal back then.
>
> He's just a blowhard.
>>
>> Correction: Access does crash if you let the file size get too big, or
>> if you don't occasionally "compact and repair."  But that isn't "often"
>>
>>>> - keyboards, mice (very durable, at least the ones I've had).
>>> which crashes often.
>>
>> Oh, I see now.  You are a recording, posting without reading.
>
> I crashed my mouse once.  I was driving it on the highway and ...

The old mechanical mice would get so crudded up that they weren't worth 
cleaning anymore. Optical mice die sometimes, but they are cheap 
replaceables. Nothing that can be pinned on the Evil Empire.

On 06-24-2012 07:53, Warren Oates wrote:
> Don't be an asshole Harry. I've seen movies where an obvious Mac has had
> a sticker put over the logo. I have no idea why. Apple  claim they

My guess would be they asked Apple to pay and Apple declined.
They used the product they prefer anyway, but covered up the
logo for spite.  But that's jsut a guess.

I was surprised to see one of our managers using a Macbook Pro the other 
day in a meeting.  A second look helped me see the outline of the HP 
badge under the Apple. :-)

-- 
Wes Groleau

    After the christening of his baby brother in church, Jason sobbed
    all the way home in the back seat of the car.  His father asked him
    three times what was wrong.  Finally, the boy replied, “That preacher
    said he wanted us brought up in a Christian home, and I wanted to
    stay with you guys."

On 2012-06-24 12:42 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
> On 06/24/2012 12:25 PM, BG@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
>> <try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:56:18 -0400, BG@yahoo.com wrote
>>> (in article <o67du7dnujd6vjil0ql3s0grvol308gsmu@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:10:05 -0400, Alan Browne
>>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>> But the point is that if it does things that cannot be done on an iPad
>>>>> then it doesn't matter, does it?  Photoshop on an iPad with 24 Mpix
>>>>> raw
>>>>> photos (how I shoot) just does not work.  And iPad native support for
>>>>> raw photo files stops at 18 Mpix (thereabouts) for some unexplained
>>>>> reason.
>>>> If you want to run photoshop you'll need a good laptop, or a good
>>>> desktop.   The tablet won't have the horsepower to run photoshop.
>>>>
>>>>> They have a lot of products, many of which return value for their
>>>>> price:
>>>>>
>>>>> - WinXP
>>>> which crashes often.
>>>
>>> Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1
>>> cured some
>>> crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable.
>> Not on this planet.
>
> XP has worked well enough for many to stubbornly cling to it even as the
> day MS pulls the support plug looms. Vista was strongly disliked.

Vista was why I bought my first Mac.  Just when I needed a new dual-core 
2.8 GHz class machine MS rolls out Vista and all I hear is trouble, 
trouble, trouble.  90% of my needs were met on day 1 of the switch and 
Fusion was installed on day 3.

I run WinXP under Fusion.  No problems at all.

> Windows 7 is OK. Windows 8 seems like Metro-style window dressing for
> the tablet market. As people are forced away from XP I wonder how many
> will adopt Win7 vs. Win8.

I will be running WinXP for as long as possible.  Beyond the "no support 
date".  Though a fresh install from before SP1 source disks might leave 
me dangling at the original XP - that will be sufficient for the 
non-internet related tasks that are assigned to WinXP.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

J.J. O'Shea:
> >> Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured 
> >> some crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable. 

BG@yahoo.com:
Not on this planet. 

J.J. O'Shea:
> Actually... yes, right here, on Earth

I don't think that BG meant planet Earth. I think he meant the planet
of the mindless Microsoft bashers. SP3 is stable for me, as well. And,
if it weren't for the nags and anti-virus updates and scans, I would
rate Win 7 on a par with Lion. I don't need to use it as much as I used
to, but when I do it behaves quite well--well enough that if Apple took
a turn that was in the wrong direction from my point of view I could
easily live with Win 7. And Apple wouldn't lose a thing because I would
most likely run it on Mac hardware. Win 7 has never crashed for me. Two
installations on two 17" MB Pro's.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 2012-06-24 15:24 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <4fe75132$0$1649$c3e8da3$33881b6a@news.astraweb.com>,
>   JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> If Apple doesn't pay for product placements, producers will feature
>> computers and phones from a company that does.
>
> Apple rarely, if ever, pays for product placement;

Fact is that Apple now (and for many of the past years) pays nobody but 
its own marketing people to encourage producers to place Apple products 
in the scene.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In message <UN2dncGZbJD23nrSnZ2dnUVZ_omdnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
> XP has worked well enough for many to stubbornly cling to it even as the 
> day MS pulls the support plug looms. Vista was strongly disliked. 
> Windows 7 is OK. Windows 8 seems like Metro-style window dressing for 
> the tablet market. As people are forced away from XP I wonder how many 
> will adopt Win7 vs. Win8.

A lot, I would guess. I think Windows 8 on the desktop is going to be a
resounding dud with uptake numbers that make Vista look good. Primarily,
because I don't think there is any benefit to running Windows 8 on a
desktop/laptop machine, and a lot of downsides.

I also don't expect the W8 tablets to sell, so yeah, I'm guessing W8
will be a colossal turd for MSFT.


-- 
The universe doesn't much care if you tread on a butterfly. There are
plenty more butterflies. Gods might note the fall of a sparrow but they
don't make any effort to catch them. --Lords and Ladies
'And trust no-- Trust practically no-one. All right? Except trustworthy
people.' 

On 2012-06-24 15:49 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:

> The old mechanical mice would get so crudded up that they weren't worth
> cleaning anymore. Optical mice die sometimes, but they are cheap
> replaceables. Nothing that can be pinned on the Evil Empire.

I had mechanical mice last very long times (5 years or so) by virtue of 
cleaning the ball and chamber with alcohol every few months.  I've had 
all manner of optical mice fail.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In article <js7r0a$9ie$1@dont-email.me>,
 Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> My guess would be they asked Apple to pay and Apple declined.
> They used the product they prefer anyway, but covered up the
> logo for spite.  But that's jsut a guess.
> 
> I was surprised to see one of our managers using a Macbook Pro the other 
> day in a meeting.  A second look helped me see the outline of the HP 
> badge under the Apple. :-)

One thing annoys me, is they show the character using a Mac and then 
when they do the over-the-shoulder of the screen, it's Windows.
-- 

.... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

Alan Browne wrote:

> Fact is that Apple now (and for many of the past years) pays nobody but 
> its own marketing people to encourage producers to place Apple products 
> in the scene.
>

They got too badly burned if you will pardon the pun with the movie 
"Indepedence Day" which was supposed to be a huge product placement to the
point where the movie was almost a running ad for the new Powerbook G3's.
Due to their tendency to catch fire, they were hastily edited out of the movie,
and a replacememnt model rushed into production "Pretty Darn Quick".

Too late to be out when the movie was released Independence Day weekend.

Geoff.

SPOLIER ALERT!!








Jeff Goldblum was supposed to find the code using his Powerbook G3, then
develop the virus on it and finally use it to deliver it. There was supposed
to be lots of screen time for MacOS and the new powerbook leading up to 
the triumpant "infect scene". 

All showing the new laptop, it's OS and so on.

It was all edited out and replaced to show generic computers because Jobs
did not want jokes going around that the did not need a virus, they 
could of let the laptops set the ship on fire.

-- 
Geoffrey S. Mendelson,  N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379

Michelle Steiner wrote:

> Apple rarely, if ever, pays for product placement; however, it does supply 
> the product in many instances.

How do you know that Apple doesn't pay for product placement ?

Generally when buying product placement, the company not only pays but
also supplies plenty of equipment. So supplying free Macs/iphones is
only part of the equation.

Just curious on how you would know authoritatively that Apple's
marketing spending includes no cash going to purchase product placement
in movies/TV series.

On 2012-06-24 16:59 , JF Mezei wrote:
  on how you would know authoritatively that Apple's
> marketing spending includes no cash going to purchase product placement
> in movies/TV series.

As I said earlier, Apple pay people (Apple employees or agents) to get 
them on shows/movies, but Apple do not pay the producer or prod co. for 
the privilege.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401670.html

QUOTE

Apple said it does not pay for product placement and would not discuss 
how its products make their way into television and films.

/QUOTE

QUOTE

But Apple was one of the first technology companies to hire someone in 
Los Angeles to get Mac products prominently displayed in hot TV shows 
and movies, said ...

/QUOTE



-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In article <4fe77fcb$0$1444$c3e8da3$aae71a0a@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> Just curious on how you would know authoritatively that Apple's
> marketing spending includes no cash going to purchase product placement
> in movies/TV series.

Google is your friend.
-- 

.... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

In article <slrnjuevsa.iti.gsm@cable.mendelson.com>, Geoffrey S.
Mendelson <gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:

> Jeff Goldblum was supposed to find the code using his Powerbook G3, then
> develop the virus on it and finally use it to deliver it. There was supposed
> to be lots of screen time for MacOS and the new powerbook leading up to 
> the triumpant "infect scene". 
> 
> All showing the new laptop, it's OS and so on.
> 
> It was all edited out and replaced to show generic computers because Jobs
> did not want jokes going around that the did not need a virus, they 
> could of let the laptops set the ship on fire.

except that steve jobs was not at apple then.

the movie came out in july, 1996 and apple bought next in december,
1996.

In article <4fe77fcb$0$1444$c3e8da3$aae71a0a@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > Apple rarely, if ever, pays for product placement; however, it does supply 
> > the product in many instances.
> 
> How do you know that Apple doesn't pay for product placement ?

<http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-is-a-product-placement-machine-man
aged-to-get-in-41-of-the-most-popular-movies-2010-3>
  More impressive than all those product placements over its rivals is
  the price Apple pays, which would be zilch. According to the Abe,
  "Apple does not pay for any of this exposure." 

<http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-05-10/apple-the-other-cult-in-
hollywood>
  Apple was struggling in those days, and then, as always, refused to
  pay for product placement, though the company did acquiesce to the
  occasional quid pro quo.
....
  Apple won�t pay to have their products featured, but they are more
  than willing to hand out an endless amount of computers, iPads, and
  iPhones.

> Generally when buying product placement, the company not only pays but
> also supplies plenty of equipment. So supplying free Macs/iphones is
> only part of the equation.

supplying free macs is just another way to 'pay' for product placement,
and it's not just apple who does it.

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR20060
41401670.html>
  A study released by the firm last year found that 64 percent of
  products placed in films or TV shows are not paid for, but rather
  arranged through some kind of barter in which the show provides
  exposure in exchange for products or services.

On 6/24/12 2:49 PM, in article js7r0a$9ie$1@dont-email.me, "Wes Groleau"
<Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 06-24-2012 07:53, Warren Oates wrote:
>> Don't be an asshole Harry. I've seen movies where an obvious Mac has had
>> a sticker put over the logo. I have no idea why. Apple  claim they
> 
> My guess would be they asked Apple to pay and Apple declined.
> They used the product they prefer anyway, but covered up the
> logo for spite.  But that's jsut a guess.
> 

Interestingly, I was watching "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" last night
and one of the computers used by the family was obviously her own personal
iMac with the logo on the face intentionally (and obviously) blocked from
view by an abnormally placed book.

Since Disney/ABC is pretty much a 'sister' to Apple, my wife and I wondered
just why the producers of the show went to such extreme means to block a
very favorable product and so many others are almost obscenely placed in
bold view, sometimes to the point of annoyance, in this ABC series.

In article <4fe77fcb$0$1444$c3e8da3$aae71a0a@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> > Apple rarely, if ever, pays for product placement; however, it does supply 
> > the product in many instances.
> 
> How do you know that Apple doesn't pay for product placement ?

<http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-05-10/apple-the-other-cult-in-hol
lywood>

There are many other news articles that say that Apple Apple never pays for 
product placement; the above references is one of the latest, if not the 
latest.

There have been no news articles that say that Apple does pay for product 
placement.

So why do you say that Apple pays for product placements, when there is no 
evidence to support that they do?

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <4fe77a40$0$1810$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>,
 Warren Oates <warren.oates@gmail.com> wrote:

> One thing annoys me, is they show the character using a Mac and then 
> when they do the over-the-shoulder of the screen, it's Windows.

I've noticed the same thing at times.

Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and 
the bad guys used Windows computers.

Oh, and have you noticed that in all the CSI shows, they all use Nikon 
cameras?

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <CC0CFEF9.8985E%ghost_topper@hotmail.com>,
 George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/24/
> Interestingly, I was watching "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" last night
> and one of the computers used by the family was obviously her own personal
> iMac with the logo on the face intentionally (and obviously) blocked from
> view by an abnormally placed book.
> 
> Since Disney/ABC is pretty much a 'sister' to Apple, my wife and I wondered
> just why the producers of the show went to such extreme means to block a
> very favorable product and so many others are almost obscenely placed in
> bold view, sometimes to the point of annoyance, in this ABC series.

Easy enough to answer.  Guess who refused to pay for product placement.
-- 
America is at that awkward stage. It's too late
to work within the system, but too early to shoot
the bastards."-- Claire Wolfe

In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and 
> the bad guys used Windows computers.

on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
you'd think they'd all have the same model. they also block out the
logos and model names on products.

> Oh, and have you noticed that in all the CSI shows, they all use Nikon 
> cameras?

why would they pick something else? :)

On 6/24/12 5:59 PM, in article
S-qdnYRFVM53BnrSnZ2dnUVZ_h6dnZ2d@earthlink.com, "Kurt Ullman"
<kurtullman@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In article <CC0CFEF9.8985E%ghost_topper@hotmail.com>,
>  George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 6/24/
>> Interestingly, I was watching "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" last night
>> and one of the computers used by the family was obviously her own personal
>> iMac with the logo on the face intentionally (and obviously) blocked from
>> view by an abnormally placed book.
>> 
>> Since Disney/ABC is pretty much a 'sister' to Apple, my wife and I wondered
>> just why the producers of the show went to such extreme means to block a
>> very favorable product and so many others are almost obscenely placed in
>> bold view, sometimes to the point of annoyance, in this ABC series.
> 
> Easy enough to answer.  Guess who refused to pay for product placement.

Yes, you could say that, but since it was owned by the people they were
helping, and not a Property Master from the show itself, it seemed
non-associated with property placement in the traditional sense. It really
WAS in the possession of the 'civilians', not the Producer(s).

On 6/24/12 6:02 PM, in article 240620121902588270%nospam@nospam.invalid,
"nospam" <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
>> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and
>> the bad guys used Windows computers.
> 
> on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
> an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
> you'd think they'd all have the same model. they also block out the
> logos and model names on products.
> 
>> Oh, and have you noticed that in all the CSI shows, they all use Nikon
>> cameras?
> 
> why would they pick something else? :)

Because Canon is a better product and doesn't need to 'prostitute' itself?!?

Oh BOY!!! Here we GO!!!  <evil laughter>

In message <240620121902588270%nospam@nospam.invalid> 
  nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

>> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and 
>> the bad guys used Windows computers.

> on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
> an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.

Did Dano change his iPhone to something else? I have't watched all the
eps, but I clearly rememenbr him talking to his daughter on an iPhone.

-- 
NO ONE WANTS TO HEAR FROM MY ARMPITS Bart chalkboard Ep. 3F01

On 06/24/2012 07:43 PM, Lewis wrote:
> In message <240620121902588270%nospam@nospam.invalid>
>    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>>> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and
>>> the bad guys used Windows computers.
>
>> on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
>> an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
>
> Did Dano change his iPhone to something else? I have't watched all the
> eps, but I clearly rememenbr him talking to his daughter on an iPhone.
>
Don't they use Bing to solve crimes? I do recall some Microsoft product 
placement.

On 06/24/2012 07:02 PM, nospam wrote:
> In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>
>> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and
>> the bad guys used Windows computers.
>
> on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
> an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
> you'd think they'd all have the same model. they also block out the
> logos and model names on products.

Is that huge tablet at HQ a Surface?

http://betanews.com/2011/10/22/is-hawaii-5-0-one-long-microsoft-commercial/

Bing:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/09/screen-grabs-bing-it-danno/

Windows Tablet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0fShLePUhI

Windows phone uploading to "Skydrive"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sschr-aU8Qk

I love the show, but not as much as Person of Interest, where the tech 
sensibility is more extreme, yet the action even more intense. IMO PoI 
blows 24 out of the water and that's coming from someone who missed one 
24 episode in all its seasons.

Geoffrey S. Mendelson:
> They got too badly burned if you will pardon the pun with the movie 
> "Indepedence Day" which was supposed to be a huge product placement to the
> point where the movie was almost a running ad for the new Powerbook G3's.
> Due to their tendency to catch fire, they were hastily edited out of the
> movie,
> and a replacememnt model rushed into production "Pretty Darn Quick".
> 
> Too late to be out when the movie was released Independence Day weekend.
> 
> Geoff.
> 
> SPOLIER ALERT!!

> Jeff Goldblum was supposed to find the code using his Powerbook G3, then
> develop the virus on it and finally use it to deliver it. There was supposed
> to be lots of screen time for MacOS and the new powerbook leading up to 
> the triumpant "infect scene". 
> 
> All showing the new laptop, it's OS and so on.
> 
> It was all edited out and replaced to show generic computers because Jobs
> did not want jokes going around that the did not need a virus, they 
> could of let the laptops set the ship on fire.

The version I saw clearly showed a PowerBook.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

In article <slrnjuf9hu.2tre.g.kreme@krismbp.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> >> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and 
> >> the bad guys used Windows computers.
> 
> > on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
> > an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
> 
> Did Dano change his iPhone to something else? I have't watched all the
> eps, but I clearly rememenbr him talking to his daughter on an iPhone.

he has windows phone:
<http://i45.tinypic.com/2zntv2p.jpg>

In message <0dednVI2xbwvNXrSnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  *Hemidactylus* <ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 06/24/2012 07:43 PM, Lewis wrote:
>> In message <240620121902588270%nospam@nospam.invalid>
>>    nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <michelle-C5B9C0.15551024062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
>>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> Also, I've seen some movies and TV shows where the good guys used Macs and
>>>> the bad guys used Windows computers.
>>
>>> on hawaii five-0, there's a mix of pretty much everything. mcgarret has
>>> an iphone and the rest of the team have android and windows phones.
>>
>> Did Dano change his iPhone to something else? I have't watched all the
>> eps, but I clearly rememenbr him talking to his daughter on an iPhone.
>>
> Don't they use Bing to solve crimes? I do recall some Microsoft product 
> placement.

The have a Microsoft Surface table (well, sort of, it's really nothing
like a REAL Surface table) and at least on of the phones is what I
assume is a Windows phone.

-- 
FRIDAYS ARE NOT "PANTS OPTIONAL" Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF23

Am 24.06.2012 01:00, schrieb JF Mezei:
> Microsoft may or may not last in the tablet market. But if they do
> introduce a couple of innovations while they are in that market, and
> others integrate such innovtions (such as that keyboard cover), then we
> end up winning.

The keyboard cover is innovative? Similar ones (ok, more or less) are 
available already for months, if not years, for the iPad. Ok, the 
'sensor' one I haven't seen (yet?) anywhere else - but it still remains 
to be seen how good it is in everyday use.

> Microsoft is not a bully monopolistic entity in that market, it is an
> "also ran" and may bring forth a few positive things.  While their
> product as a whole may not be compelling (mostly due to lack of apps or
> pricing), those innovative features will attract attention of the real
> competitors.
>
> What I really cannot understand is how can such a large and rich company
>   consistently fail to enter the mobile market with a "bang".

When and where was MS ever really innovative? Let me think:

- MS-DOS: The first IBM PC could be shipped equally with MS-DOS and with 
CP/M-86, for which more programs were available initially. MS-DOS might 
have been cheaper, though (I don't know what else to attribute the 
success of MS-DOS to).
- Office: There were other office suites available before.
- Windows and mouse: Apple has had quite some headstart there with both 
the LISA and the Macintosh. Actually, if you read Steve Jobs biography, 
it was him who introduced Bill Gates to the concept of a GUI - and all 
Bill did was ask his programmers to copy it. Steve was not very amused...
- XBox: There were other game consoles before. IIRC the biggest 
'advantage' of the first XBox was the higher resolution, something that 
was basically to be expected anyway.
- Kinect: Ok, though they bought the technology (AFAIK) which was 
available before, they actually pushed it into the mass market. So 
marketing wise that would be a point for MS.
- Windows Mobile: Palm was there years earlier.
- Windows Phone: iOS was there years earlier.
- ...

Certainly, MS has done quite a lot to the proliferation of the 
(MS-DOS/Windows) PC, but they certainly can't take too many laurels for 
being innovative...

> Is it a few people at the top who lack the vision to act proactively and
> they are always late and hence have to live with many compromises and
> bugs or do they really lack smart programmers who have the right coding
> philosophy to create modules that are efficient and reliable ?

It is certainly difficult in a company as big as MS to pull really 
creative ideas through - too many accountants, political blocks, ... in 
the way. Without a respected leader (like Steve Jobs, possibly Bill 
Gates could play this role as well, but at this time he doesn't) 
supporting you full-hearted it is virtually impossible to overcome all 
this. IMHO.

Best regards,

Michael

Am 23.06.2012 16:30, schrieb Alan Browne:
> On 2012-06-19 09:13 , Davoud wrote:

>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>
> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
> accessible?

Possible, but not very likely. If they wanted to battery to be 
user-replaceable, they would add a 'standard battery cover' for which no 
'special' tools would be needed. The screws shown certainly will not be 
covered by the contents of Joe User's toolbox...

> Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.

Sorry, but dream on! Already the technical difficulties involved in your 
idea make it highly improbable, if not barely unrealistic. Just a few of 
them for starters:

- Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably 
add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious 
assets when designing such devices these days.
- Each component in a socket has to be kept there under all 
circumstances - including after high degree accelerations, i.e. after a 
fall from a considerable height. It would certainly be a disadvantage 
marketingwise, if users started to flood the repairshops with supposedly 
broken devices, where just the flash or main memory lost contact.
- ...

(My) conclusion: Feel free to continue waiting for a tablet with user 
serviceable components inside - but I certainly wouldn't suggest you to 
hold your breath for it, or even only to stop eating until it's there... ;-)

Best regards,

Michael

Am 23.06.2012 18:16, schrieb Alan Browne:
> On 2012-06-23 11:10 , Davoud wrote:
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Michelle Steiner:
>>>> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to
>>>> mean that
>>>> the product is designed to not have a user service it.
>>
>> Alan Browne:
>>> It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.
>>
>> Could be because authorized repair centers know how to repair these
>> things and the overwhelming majority of consumers do not?
>
> You'd be surprised.  A friend of mine who has little interest in such
> has successfully upgraded his PC (disk drive, memory, added an interface
> card).  Because it was accessible.

If you want a computer with user-serviceable parts inside, go and get 
one. As you know there are many manufactures out there producing such 
devices. Just in this case you would have to delete Apple from this list 
(apart for the Mac Pro IIRC) - they just don't see this as their market.

> If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most
> non-technical users can change those parts.

>>> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later
>>> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work
>>> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.
>>
>> I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
>> idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
>> about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
>> disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
>> drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
>> comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
>> just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.
>
> Unfortunately for those inclined to change common computer parts (disk
> drives in particular) Apple have already made what is a 5 - 10 minute
> task for anyone with a Phillips screwdriver on a PC into a 30 - 45
> minute task requiring 4 or 5 different tools.  (Done it).
>
> With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are
> available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.
>
> Since, at least where I live, Apple's ability to change a hard drive
> seems to be limited to a 3 - 5 day cycle, it's completely unacceptable.
>   When I buy my next iMac I will also purchase in advance of need, all
> the 3rd party cabling needed to replace the disk drive.

Why do you buy a computer if it doesn't fulfill your requirements? It is 
not really a well-kept secret that iMacs are pretty difficult to open 
and to do work inside. Not impossible, but difficult, requiring special 
tools and knowledge. If an important requirement of you is access to the 
innards, buy another machine! In this case an iMac is certainly not the 
best choice...

Btw, the very same holds true to all All-in-One types of devices 
(Laptops, Netbooks, UltraBooks, All-in-One PCs, ...).

Best regards,

Michael

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:49:30 -0400, Wes Groleau wrote:

> On 06-24-2012 07:53, Warren Oates wrote:
>> Don't be an asshole Harry. I've seen movies where an obvious Mac has
>> had a sticker put over the logo. I have no idea why. Apple  claim they
> 
> My guess would be they asked Apple to pay and Apple declined.
> They used the product they prefer anyway, but covered up the logo for
> spite.  But that's jsut a guess.
> 
> I was surprised to see one of our managers using a Macbook Pro the other
> day in a meeting.  A second look helped me see the outline of the HP
> badge under the Apple. :-)

Yes I've fallen for that trap.  Someone giving a presentation was using a 
laptop with an Apple logo to drive the projector.  It didn't look big 
enough to be an Apple system and sure enough when I went to look at it, 
it wasn't.

One film placement did puzzle me though.  The Apple logo was upside 
down.  I did a double check with my own systems and yes, the film had the 
logo upside down.

-- 
Paul Sture

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:29:29 -0500, George Kerby wrote:

> Interestingly, I was watching "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" last
> night and one of the computers used by the family was obviously her own
> personal iMac with the logo on the face intentionally (and obviously)
> blocked from view by an abnormally placed book.
> 
> Since Disney/ABC is pretty much a 'sister' to Apple, my wife and I
> wondered just why the producers of the show went to such extreme means
> to block a very favorable product and so many others are almost
> obscenely placed in bold view, sometimes to the point of annoyance, in
> this ABC series.

The BBC used to go to great lengths to avoid inadvertent product 
advertisements.  The famous example was a kids show where an empty 
washing up liquid bottle featured in many projects involving sticky 
backed plastic, paint and glue.

All artwork on those bottles was dutifully scrubbed off.  They never used 
commonly accepted trade names for products such as Sellotape or Scotch 
tape either.

Another example was in the Kinks song Lola.  "Cherry Cola" wasn't in the 
original lyrics, but that is what was used, otherwise the BBC wouldn't 
have aired the record

-- 
Paul Sture

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:50:22 -0400, Alan Browne wrote:

> I will be running WinXP for as long as possible.  Beyond the "no support
> date".  Though a fresh install from before SP1 source disks might leave
> me dangling at the original XP - that will be sufficient for the
> non-internet related tasks that are assigned to WinXP.

Download an offline copy of SP3 while you can to apply to the original?

That strategy worked for NT4.

-- 
Paul Sture

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:57:04 -0400, Davoud wrote:

> SP3 is stable for me, as well. And,
> if it weren't for the nags and anti-virus updates and scans, I would
> rate Win 7 on a par with Lion. I don't need to use it as much as I used
> to, but when I do it behaves quite well--well enough that if Apple took
> a turn that was in the wrong direction from my point of view I could
> easily live with Win 7. And Apple wouldn't lose a thing because I would
> most likely run it on Mac hardware. Win 7 has never crashed for me. Two
> installations on two 17" MB Pro's.

Perhaps because I managed to miss most of XP, I definitely prefer Windows 
7.  In my experience XP does seem to generate more virus alerts than 7.

While the craziness of USB devices and XP has gone away with Windows 7, 
inserting a new USB stick will still throw up a dialogue offering to use 
it for ReadyBoost (USB space as RAM), which invariably raises your hopes 
that you can use it, then dashes them by saying your device is too slow :-
)

Windows 7 crashed at first, but they soon put out a fix for my NIC 
driver.  The first time I had to fish it out from the manufacturer's 
site, the next time I installed Windows 7 it was already there as one of 
the first optional fixes offered in Windows Update.

I still prefer Snow Leopard or Lion to Windows 7 though.  Apart from the 
GUI, OS X gives me a decent command line to go at, and as I implied in an 
earlier post, I find Microsoft licenses too restrictive.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <61qlb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch>,
 Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Another example was in the Kinks song Lola.  "Cherry Cola" wasn't in the 
> original lyrics, but that is what was used, otherwise the BBC wouldn't 
> have aired the record

That's a very famous example. Ray Davies said something at the time like 
"fuck it, I want my song played. I don't care about Coca Cola." 
Although, I would prefer Lola's lips to taste just like Coca Cola, and 
not Cherry Cola.
-- 

.... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 15:49:30 -0400, Wes Groleau wrote:
> 
> > On 06-24-2012 07:53, Warren Oates wrote:
> >> Don't be an asshole Harry. I've seen movies where an obvious Mac has
> >> had a sticker put over the logo. I have no idea why. Apple  claim they
> > 
> > My guess would be they asked Apple to pay and Apple declined.
> > They used the product they prefer anyway, but covered up the logo for
> > spite.  But that's jsut a guess.
> > 
> > I was surprised to see one of our managers using a Macbook Pro the other
> > day in a meeting.  A second look helped me see the outline of the HP
> > badge under the Apple. :-)
> 
> Yes I've fallen for that trap.  Someone giving a presentation was using a
> laptop with an Apple logo to drive the projector.  It didn't look big
> enough to be an Apple system and sure enough when I went to look at it,
> it wasn't.
> 
> One film placement did puzzle me though.  The Apple logo was upside 
> down.  I did a double check with my own systems and yes, the film had the
> logo upside down.

It wasn't just an older model? The PowerBook G3 had an upside-down Apple
logo if the lid was open.

The logo was flipped over for the PowerBook G4 (so it instead appeared
upside down from the front of the computer while the lid was closed),
and that has been retained on subsequent notebook models.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz

On 6/25/12 5:10 AM, in article 61qlb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch, "Paul Sture"
<paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 17:29:29 -0500, George Kerby wrote:
> 
>> Interestingly, I was watching "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" last
>> night and one of the computers used by the family was obviously her own
>> personal iMac with the logo on the face intentionally (and obviously)
>> blocked from view by an abnormally placed book.
>> 
>> Since Disney/ABC is pretty much a 'sister' to Apple, my wife and I
>> wondered just why the producers of the show went to such extreme means
>> to block a very favorable product and so many others are almost
>> obscenely placed in bold view, sometimes to the point of annoyance, in
>> this ABC series.
> 
> The BBC used to go to great lengths to avoid inadvertent product
> advertisements.  The famous example was a kids show where an empty
> washing up liquid bottle featured in many projects involving sticky
> backed plastic, paint and glue.
> 
> All artwork on those bottles was dutifully scrubbed off.  They never used
> commonly accepted trade names for products such as Sellotape or Scotch
> tape either.
> 
> Another example was in the Kinks song Lola.  "Cherry Cola" wasn't in the
> original lyrics, but that is what was used, otherwise the BBC wouldn't
> have aired the record

I never realized that Cherry Cola was anything other than generic and never
thought of it as a brand name. Like "Cherry Coke" that I used to get at the
drugstore soda fountain. Thanks for the information. Now that damn song is
playing in my head!

"C-O-L-A, Co-La"

On 2012-06-25 04:06 , Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 23.06.2012 16:30, schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2012-06-19 09:13 , Davoud wrote:
>
>>> In re: Mr. Groloeau's comment that the screws on the bottom will allow
>>> a competent user to disassemble and work on the MS tablet, I wonder
>>> what percentage of users he has in mind. Off the top of my head I would
>>> say about .0000000000001% would be competent and about 1/10th of those
>>> would be silly enough to void the warranty when MS would repair or
>>> replace a defective tablet under warranty.
>>
>> This all depends on implementation. Perhaps MS will make the battery
>> accessible?
>
> Possible, but not very likely. If they wanted to battery to be
> user-replaceable, they would add a 'standard battery cover' for which no
> 'special' tools would be needed. The screws shown certainly will not be
> covered by the contents of Joe User's toolbox...
>
>> Perhaps MS will allow the flash and/or memory to be
>> eventually upgraded and replaced by the user.
>
> Sorry, but dream on! Already the technical difficulties involved in your
> idea make it highly improbable, if not barely unrealistic. Just a few of
> them for starters:
>
> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably
> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
> assets when designing such devices these days.
> - Each component in a socket has to be kept there under all
> circumstances - including after high degree accelerations, i.e. after a
> fall from a considerable height. It would certainly be a disadvantage
> marketingwise, if users started to flood the repairshops with supposedly
> broken devices, where just the flash or main memory lost contact.
> - ...
>
> (My) conclusion: Feel free to continue waiting for a tablet with user
> serviceable components inside - but I certainly wouldn't suggest you to
> hold your breath for it, or even only to stop eating until it's there...
> ;-)


You're imagining more emotion on my part over these issues than borne by 
the facts.

Little Nokia cell phones allow one to change the battery, SIM card in 
some cases add flash memory.  I've dropped a lot of Nokia phones without 
any issues.  For a larger device such as a tablet, the issues of volume 
are a non starter - the iPad has oodles of unused volume inside.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-25 04:12 , Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 23.06.2012 18:16, schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2012-06-23 11:10 , Davoud wrote:
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> Michelle Steiner:
>>>>> Yup, "No user serviceable parts inside" is generally accepted to
>>>>> mean that
>>>>> the product is designed to not have a user service it.
>>>
>>> Alan Browne:
>>>> It's mainly intended to drive people to authorized repair centres.
>>>
>>> Could be because authorized repair centers know how to repair these
>>> things and the overwhelming majority of consumers do not?
>>
>> You'd be surprised.  A friend of mine who has little interest in such
>> has successfully upgraded his PC (disk drive, memory, added an interface
>> card).  Because it was accessible.
>
> If you want a computer with user-serviceable parts inside, go and get
> one. As you know there are many manufactures out there producing such
> devices. Just in this case you would have to delete Apple from this list
> (apart for the Mac Pro IIRC) - they just don't see this as their market.
>
>> If MS make things like memory and flash accessible, then most
>> non-technical users can change those parts.
>
>>>> And what Apple have down wrt to custom cabling for disk drives in later
>>>> iMacs is truly unwarranted.  Thankfully there are companies that work
>>>> around Apple's bizarre behaviour.
>>>
>>> I'm Joe User. My wife and I each have later-model 27" iMacs. I have no
>>> idea what you're talking about. Why in the world would Joe User care
>>> about Apple's ?policy? ?instructions? concerning custom cabling for
>>> disk drives? They're desktop machines. The external FW and T-Bolt
>>> drives work just fine, no cable problems. I think you want
>>> comp.sys.mac.like-to-tear-it-apart-and-fuss-over-the-insides-rather-than-
>>>
>>> just-plug-it-in-and-go-to-work.
>>
>> Unfortunately for those inclined to change common computer parts (disk
>> drives in particular) Apple have already made what is a 5 - 10 minute
>> task for anyone with a Phillips screwdriver on a PC into a 30 - 45
>> minute task requiring 4 or 5 different tools.  (Done it).
>>
>> With the 27" imac you also need non standard SATA cables!  These are
>> available from 3rd party sources, but it's a ridiculous change by Apple.
>>
>> Since, at least where I live, Apple's ability to change a hard drive
>> seems to be limited to a 3 - 5 day cycle, it's completely unacceptable.
>>   When I buy my next iMac I will also purchase in advance of need, all
>> the 3rd party cabling needed to replace the disk drive.
>
> Why do you buy a computer if it doesn't fulfill your requirements? It is
> not really a well-kept secret that iMacs are pretty difficult to open
> and to do work inside. Not impossible, but difficult, requiring special

Not difficult, just time consuming.

> tools and knowledge. If an important requirement of you is access to the
> innards, buy another machine! In this case an iMac is certainly not the
> best choice...

I don't need to defend my choices to you.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 23:54:09 +1200, David Empson wrote:

> Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> 
>> One film placement did puzzle me though.  The Apple logo was upside
>> down.  I did a double check with my own systems and yes, the film had
>> the logo upside down.
> 
> It wasn't just an older model? The PowerBook G3 had an upside-down Apple
> logo if the lid was open.
> 
> The logo was flipped over for the PowerBook G4 (so it instead appeared
> upside down from the front of the computer while the lid was closed),
> and that has been retained on subsequent notebook models.

Ah thanks.  Another of life's little mysteries cleared up :-)

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <l8GdnQUC5pKq_HXSnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Little Nokia cell phones allow one to change the battery, SIM card in 
> some cases add flash memory.

none of those are common.

> I've dropped a lot of Nokia phones without 
> any issues.  For a larger device such as a tablet, the issues of volume 
> are a non starter - the iPad has oodles of unused volume inside.

no it doesn't. just look at an ipad teardown. it's almost entirely
battery. 

making the battery easily removable would mean the ipad would have to
be much thicker, all for the very rare occasion of needing to swap a
battery. it's not worth it.

<http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/ylKZEWhKeNBMMYRD.medium>

Am 25.06.2012 15:09, schrieb Alan Browne:
> On 2012-06-25 04:12 , Michael Eyd wrote:

>> tools and knowledge. If an important requirement of you is access to the
>> innards, buy another machine! In this case an iMac is certainly not the
>> best choice...
>
> I don't need to defend my choices to you.

No, you don't. But then you don't need to wonder why people like me 
shake their heads on you and your choices...

And in this case this means EOD for me here.

Best regards and lots of fun with whatever device you're going to use,

Michael

In article <js9sdc$c1k$1@news.sap-ag.de>, Michael Eyd <invalid@eyd.de> 
wrote:

> And in this case this means EOD for me here.

Explosive Ordnance Disposal?

(Yes, I know.)

BTW, would a municipal law regulating not unusual munitions be an ordinary 
ordnance ordinance?

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 2012-06-25 10:25 , Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 25.06.2012 15:09, schrieb Alan Browne:
>> On 2012-06-25 04:12 , Michael Eyd wrote:
>
>>> tools and knowledge. If an important requirement of you is access to the
>>> innards, buy another machine! In this case an iMac is certainly not the
>>> best choice...
>>
>> I don't need to defend my choices to you.
>
> No, you don't. But then you don't need to wonder why people like me
> shake their heads on you and your choices...

My choices are based on many factors and weighted accordingly.

I've never managed to buy a product that was perfectly optimal to my 
needs.  There is always something that trades off against something 
else.  The iMac is such.  The current one is over 4 years old and fine 
enough.  I do wish it was faster for some tasks - next Mac will 
undoubtedly be faster.

Of course it's EOD for you - drop your hard black and white comments 
that don't fit the real world and run.  That meets your needs.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 2012-06-25 09:38 , nospam wrote:
> In article <l8GdnQUC5pKq_HXSnZ2dnUVZ_qidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Little Nokia cell phones allow one to change the battery, SIM card in
>> some cases add flash memory.
>
> none of those are common.

SIM cards are definitely common, flash memory in CF or SD (etc.) is very 
common and the batteries are available from various 3rd party vendors at 
many locations (street corners to malls) and at worst by mail order.


>
>> I've dropped a lot of Nokia phones without
>> any issues.  For a larger device such as a tablet, the issues of volume
>> are a non starter - the iPad has oodles of unused volume inside.
>
> no it doesn't. just look at an ipad teardown. it's almost entirely
> battery.

The first iPad had lots of volume spare around the long strip supporting 
the electronics.

And we're not talking about the iPad in any case.


> making the battery easily removable would mean the ipad would have to
> be much thicker, all for the very rare occasion of needing to swap a
> battery. it's not worth it.
>
> <http://guide-images.ifixit.net/igi/ylKZEWhKeNBMMYRD.medium>

We're not talking about the iPad.



-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In article <j9plb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch>,
 Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> One film placement did puzzle me though.  The Apple logo was upside 
> down.  I did a double check with my own systems and yes, the film had the 
> logo upside down.

Before Jobs took over the reins, MacBooks did have the logo upside down 
when open.  But they appeared rightside up to the user when closed.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

In article <61qlb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch>,
 Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:

> Another example was in the Kinks song Lola.  "Cherry Cola" wasn't in the 
> original lyrics, but that is what was used, otherwise the BBC wouldn't 
> have aired the record

They must have had a hard time with the Andrews Sisters' "Rum and Coca 
Cola".

http://youtu.be/fD7gp7aqWdo

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 12:45:45 -0400, *Hemidactylus*
<ecphoric@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> i have too many gripes with Micro$oft to list here.
>
>Is that why you're using Forte Agent which is a Windows-friendly newsreader?
>
It's why I am using Forte Agent instead of crapware like Outlook.

In article <michelle-EB780A.08481825062012@news.eternal-september.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <j9plb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch>,
>  Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> 
> > One film placement did puzzle me though.  The Apple logo was upside 
> > down.  I did a double check with my own systems and yes, the film had the 
> > logo upside down.
> 
> Before Jobs took over the reins, MacBooks did have the logo upside down 
> when open.  But they appeared rightside up to the user when closed.

But Jobs wanted the best experience for the user, not for the onlookers 
and it took a few years to get the logo flipped around.

-- 
PRAY, v.  To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf
of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy. -- Ambrose Bierce

>> One thing annoys me, is they show the character using a Mac and then 
>> when they do the over-the-shoulder of the screen, it's Windows.

probably the same type of mistake as when they show a plane interior to
be that of a widebody 747/777 and when they show the plane taking off or
landing, it is a 737.

In the last episode of <hqfeu71onkoqmfso35gq0q3vm83eg9j9ph@4ax.com>,
BG@yahoo.com said:

>On Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:59:31 -0400, J.J. O'Shea
><try.not.to@but.see.sig> wrote:
>
>>Actually... not any more. XP, from 2002, crashed fairly often. SP1 cured some 
>>crashes, SP2 some others, SP3 more. XP SP3 is quite stable. 
>
>Not on this planet.   

Just because you can't configure a stable XP box doesn't mean that it's
an issue for most people. Start with half way decent hardware, install
the correct drivers and avoid messing with things you don't understand
and it'll generally do reasonably well.

-- 
Jack: So what's your impression of Alar?
Teal'C: That he is concealing something.
Jack: Like what?
Teal'C: I am unsure - he is concealing it.

DevilsPGD <boogabooga@crazyhat.net> wrote:

> In the last episode of
> <4fe77a40$0$1810$c3e8da3$fdf4f6af@news.astraweb.com>, Warren Oates
> <warren.oates@gmail.com> said:

> >One thing annoys me, is they show the character using a Mac and then
> >when they do the over-the-shoulder of the screen, it's Windows.
> 
> Mac for show and coffee shop use, Windows for getting work done. What's
> the problem?

Hmm. Different viewpoints obviously. I use my Macs for getting work
done, including posting to usenet as is presumably obvious, and in fact
for darn near everything except for.... games. I broke down and got a
Windows 7 machine for games. Many games are running a lot better on my
separate Windows 7 machine than even when I tried the same games in
BootCamp, much less the OS X versions when available; I'm sure that's
partly because my Windows 7 machine is a bit newer than this iMac, but I
suspect a lot of it is better video drivers than the BootCamp ones.

Actually works out pretty handy, as I can do other things on my Mac at
the same time without the bother of shutting down the game. Particularly
handy for reading info about a game while playing.

-- 
Richard Maine                    | Good judgment comes from experience;
email: last name at domain . net | experience comes from bad judgment.
domain: summertriangle           |  -- Mark Twain

On 06-25-2012 04:06, Michael Eyd wrote:
> Possible, but not very likely. If they wanted to battery to be
> user-replaceable, they would add a 'standard battery cover' for which no
> 'special' tools would be needed. The screws shown certainly will not be
> covered by the contents of Joe User's toolbox...

Torx drivers are EASY to get.

> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably
> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
> assets when designing such devices these days.

ZIF sockets are pretty low-profile.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   “Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
    the courage to change the one I can;
    and the wisdom to know it's me.”
                                — unknown

Am 26.06.2012 04:11, schrieb Wes Groleau:
> On 06-25-2012 04:06, Michael Eyd wrote:
>> Possible, but not very likely. If they wanted to battery to be
>> user-replaceable, they would add a 'standard battery cover' for which no
>> 'special' tools would be needed. The screws shown certainly will not be
>> covered by the contents of Joe User's toolbox...
>
> Torx drivers are EASY to get.

That's certainly true for standard sizes, the micro sizes used in phones 
etc. are not quite as easy to get. Far from impossible to get, but not 
usually not right around the corner in your local supermarket... ;-)

>> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably
>> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
>> assets when designing such devices these days.
>
> ZIF sockets are pretty low-profile.

Low-profile yes, no-profile no. In any case they add volume (i.e. 
height), and they are certainly less reliable than soldered connections. 
And for the height, in a business area where a tenth of a millimeter 
might make all the difference between your device and the one of your 
competitor (when it comes to playing 'Mine is thinner' in 
advertising/marketing), this is very critical. Summary: Both are 
'virtues' that don't really go well with the criteria such devices are 
constructed under these days...

But let's wait and see whether MS really goes where you want them to, or 
whether my pessimism holds true here. And, just to keep my statement 
clear: I don't argue against MS introducing a flash card slot for (e.g.) 
SD cards.  Just that they didn't show it on the presentation (resp. on 
the devices shown) doesn't have to mean a final 'No' for this feature.

But I will only believe in other exchangeable parts like (internal) 
flash memory, CPU or RAM if I see it. Even a 'replaceable battery' (in 
the way most standard mobile phones feature them, under an easily 
detachable cover) would be rather unexpected to me, though not impossible.

Best regards,

Michael

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 08:56:01 -0700, Michelle Steiner wrote:

> In article <61qlb9-131.ln1@news.sture.ch>,
>  Paul Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> 
>> Another example was in the Kinks song Lola.  "Cherry Cola" wasn't in
>> the original lyrics, but that is what was used, otherwise the BBC
>> wouldn't have aired the record
> 
> They must have had a hard time with the Andrews Sisters' "Rum and Coca
> Cola".
> 
> http://youtu.be/fD7gp7aqWdo

I am pretty sure the BBC wouldn't have shown that clip.  My memory of the 
Andrews sister (from the 60s I suppose) is a very prim and proper image.

I definitely remember the song though (and Youtube has better sound 
quality versions).  I've just come across this from October 2011, 
celebrating Coca Cola UK's 50th anniversary.

<http://www.triplepundit.com/2011/10/coca-cola-uk-marks-50th-anniversary-
waste/>

If the product wasn't available in the UK when the song came out, the BBC 
probably didn't object.  There are also stories that the top brass were 
so far detached from the rest of us that some things got smuggled past 
them.  I have vague memories of a comedy show (The Goons?) using the word 
"frog" instead of "sex" - everyone knew what was intended but it got past 
the censors.

-- 
Paul Sture

On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 19:59:18 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

>>> One thing annoys me, is they show the character using a Mac and then
>>> when they do the over-the-shoulder of the screen, it's Windows.

I was working last year with an ex-Microsoft employee who proudly showed 
me his shiny new MacBook running Windows 7.  While I couldn't knock him 
for picking the right hardware, I inwardly cringed and thought "What a 
waste" when I saw it.

> probably the same type of mistake as when they show a plane interior to
> be that of a widebody 747/777 and when they show the plane taking off or
> landing, it is a 737.

You are probably the type of guy who when watching a Western set in 1870 
would exclaim "That is an 1890 Winchester!".  :-)

But yes, such inconsistencies do jar.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <thnob9-7d1.ln1@news.sture.ch>, Paul Sture <paul@sture.ch> 
wrote:

> If the product wasn't available in the UK when the song came out, the BBC 
> probably didn't object.  There are also stories that the top brass were 
> so far detached from the rest of us that some things got smuggled past 
> them.  I have vague memories of a comedy show (The Goons?) using the word 
> "frog" instead of "sex" - everyone knew what was intended but it got past 
> the censors.

Silly bunt.
-- 

.... do not cover a warm kettle or your stock may sour. -- Julia Child

On 2012-06-24 11:01 , J.J. O'Shea wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2012 22:54:18 -0400, Alan Browne wrote
> (in article <F6SdnYHsKaDHHHvSnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@giganews.com>):
>
>> On 2012-06-23 15:26 , *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>
>>> Actually I'm not as concerned with Apple winning as I am with Microsoft
>>> losing. But I'm the sort of person who enjoyed watching Facebook stock
>>> roll downhill after the IPO. But it looks like FB stock might be inching
>>> back slowly. I dislike Apple much less than Facebook or Microsoft.
>>> That's one reason why I would prefer an iPad to a Windows tablet.
>>
>> I've never seen as many irrelevancies collected in a single paragraph
>> before.
>>
>>
>
> You need to lighten up a little.

My SO and doctor agree with that, but it has nothing to do with what I 
write here.


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

On 06-26-2012 03:17, Michael Eyd wrote:
> Am 26.06.2012 04:11, schrieb Wes Groleau:
>> On 06-25-2012 04:06, Michael Eyd wrote:
>>> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably
>>> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
>>> assets when designing such devices these days.
>>
>> ZIF sockets are pretty low-profile.
>
> Low-profile yes, no-profile no. In any case they add volume (i.e.
> height), and they are certainly less reliable than soldered connections.
> And for the height, in a business area where a tenth of a millimeter

But you said "Exchangeable components," not "soldered connections."
If it's exchangeable (by a non-pro) it has _some_ kind of socket,
and ZIFs aren't the largest things out there.

I've also seen RAM sockets parallel to the board, where the socket is as 
thin as the DIMM that slides into it.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   “Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
    the courage to change the one I can;
    and the wisdom to know it's me.”
                                — unknown

On 06-26-2012 20:44, Wes Groleau wrote:
> I've also seen RAM sockets parallel to the board, where the socket is as
> thin as the DIMM that slides into it.

And SIM-card receivers and SDS-card receivers that add much less than a 
millimeter to the height of the SIM.

-- 
Wes Groleau

   “Grant me the serenity to accept those I cannot change;
    the courage to change the one I can;
    and the wisdom to know it's me.”
                                — unknown

Am 27.06.2012 02:44, schrieb Wes Groleau:
> On 06-26-2012 03:17, Michael Eyd wrote:
>> Am 26.06.2012 04:11, schrieb Wes Groleau:
>>> On 06-25-2012 04:06, Michael Eyd wrote:
>>>> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These
>>>> invariably
>>>> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
>>>> assets when designing such devices these days.
>>>
>>> ZIF sockets are pretty low-profile.
>>
>> Low-profile yes, no-profile no. In any case they add volume (i.e.
>> height), and they are certainly less reliable than soldered connections.
>> And for the height, in a business area where a tenth of a millimeter
>
> But you said "Exchangeable components," not "soldered connections."
> If it's exchangeable (by a non-pro) it has _some_ kind of socket,
> and ZIFs aren't the largest things out there.

Please don't turn my argument around: My point was that any 
non-soldering connection will add volume (and thus in almost all cases 
height) to the package. And my point was that that as well puts a burden 
on reliability for mobile devices (already PCs know the "5 inch repair" 
- let the device drop down from about 5 inches to get any plug connect 
better into its socket again).

So, please don't make it look like as if I was arguing in favor of 
sockets (here)... ;-)

Technically, on a side note, I agree with you though... ;-)

> I've also seen RAM sockets parallel to the board, where the socket is as
> thin as the DIMM that slides into it.

Surely possible, however soldering the chips directly to the board will 
always be thinner... ;-)

Best regards,

Michael

In article <jsdl19$lea$1@dont-email.me>,
 Wes Groleau <Groleau+news@FreeShell.org> wrote:

> On 06-26-2012 03:17, Michael Eyd wrote:
> > Am 26.06.2012 04:11, schrieb Wes Groleau:
> >> On 06-25-2012 04:06, Michael Eyd wrote:
> >>> - Exchangeable components require appropriated sockets. These invariably
> >>> add a) costs and b) volume (i.e. height) - both about the most precious
> >>> assets when designing such devices these days.
> >>
> >> ZIF sockets are pretty low-profile.
> >
> > Low-profile yes, no-profile no. In any case they add volume (i.e.
> > height), and they are certainly less reliable than soldered connections.
> > And for the height, in a business area where a tenth of a millimeter
> 
> But you said "Exchangeable components," not "soldered connections."
> If it's exchangeable (by a non-pro) it has _some_ kind of socket,
> and ZIFs aren't the largest things out there.

He was talking about the disadvantages of exchangeable components compared to 
non-exchangeable components, which can be soldered.

In article <Q_idnfGLCvu5GXXSnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> Little Nokia cell phones allow one to change the battery, SIM card in
> >> some cases add flash memory.
> >
> > none of those are common.
> 
> SIM cards are definitely common, flash memory in CF or SD (etc.) is very 
> common and the batteries are available from various 3rd party vendors at 
> many locations (street corners to malls) and at worst by mail order.

the items themselves are common, but frequently swapping them is not.

> >> I've dropped a lot of Nokia phones without
> >> any issues.  For a larger device such as a tablet, the issues of volume
> >> are a non starter - the iPad has oodles of unused volume inside.
> >
> > no it doesn't. just look at an ipad teardown. it's almost entirely
> > battery.
> 
> The first iPad had lots of volume spare around the long strip supporting 
> the electronics.
> 
> And we're not talking about the iPad in any case.

*you* mentioned the ipad and the oodles of unused space inside. it's
quoted above.

On 2012-06-27 14:54 , nospam wrote:
> In article <Q_idnfGLCvu5GXXSnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> Little Nokia cell phones allow one to change the battery, SIM card in
>>>> some cases add flash memory.
>>>
>>> none of those are common.
>>
>> SIM cards are definitely common, flash memory in CF or SD (etc.) is very
>> common and the batteries are available from various 3rd party vendors at
>> many locations (street corners to malls) and at worst by mail order.
>
> the items themselves are common, but frequently swapping them is not.
>
>>>> I've dropped a lot of Nokia phones without
>>>> any issues.  For a larger device such as a tablet, the issues of volume
>>>> are a non starter - the iPad has oodles of unused volume inside.
>>>
>>> no it doesn't. just look at an ipad teardown. it's almost entirely
>>> battery.
>>
>> The first iPad had lots of volume spare around the long strip supporting
>> the electronics.
>>
>> And we're not talking about the iPad in any case.
>
> *you* mentioned the ipad and the oodles of unused space inside. it's
> quoted above.

The general point is about the MS tablet.  Do try to keep up.

(See the subject if you're not clear on that).


-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.