It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of 
grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that 
the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. 
I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly 
only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.

So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
experiences with the new style scroll bars.

-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of 
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that 
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. 
> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly 
> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
> 
> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

I prefer the old. The styling of the new is kinda nice, but they're too 
small and narrow. In this day of 27 inch monitors I can't understand the 
usability advantage of making them smaller.

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

In article <a6ccvcF8e2U1@mid.individual.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:

> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

I'm happy with them. My granddaughters, who have had minimal time using 
them, don't seem to like them. I'd tell them "Move up, Luddites!", but I 
don't think they'd know what I was talking about.

leo

In message <a6ccvcF8e2U1@mid.individual.net>
  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter.
> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly
> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.

Scrolling with the Magic Trackpad is no problem at all since you don't
use the scrollbars.

> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

When I am already using the trackman I find the behavior of the scroll
bars to be so obnoxious and annoying that I am convinced they were
designed *specifically* to be annoying and obnoxious.

I have been using mice since 1986 pretty much every day. It is quite
hard for me to get the scroll bar to appears, and when I do get it to
appear, it is quite hard to grab the little tiny thumb to drag.

When dealing with long documents, the Trackpad is inadequate because it
takes multiple swipes to scroll long distances, so you need the
scroll-wheel, but it pops up for such a fleeting time that it can take 2
or 3 tries to get it.

It's better in Mnt Lion.

--
'Everything will be all right. From History's point of view, that is.
There really isn't any other.'

TaliesinSoft:

> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of 
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that 
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. 
> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly 
> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
> 
> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

If evolution hadn't prepared us to adapt and become accustomed to
change we would not be here to comment on scroll bars. I am thoroughly
accustomed to the Lion scroll bars and I no longer consider them to be
new. By now they are as natural as the former scheme, and I don't
notice them at all.

There are, of course, persons who are quite determined not to accept or
adapt to change, and who will spite themselves to maintain their
obstinacy. Such persons are usually called conservatives, but
regressives is the more appropriate term, since they waste their lives
trying to circumvent the laws of thermodynamics and turn back the
clock.

-- 
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm

On 2012-07-14 05:30:07 +0000, Kir�ly said:

[commenting on the new style scrollbars]

> I prefer the old. The styling of the new is kinda nice, but they're too
> small and narrow. In this day of 27 inch monitors I can't understand the
> usability advantage of making them smaller.

I find the width of the new scrollbars perfectly adequate to convey the 
needed information clearly and without taking up unnecessary room in 
the window. I'm using a 21.5 inch iMac with the screen resolution set 
to 1600 x 900 pixels.

-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

In article <a6ccvcF8e2U1@mid.individual.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:

> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

Mine parallel yours.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 2012-07-14 01:04 , TaliesinSoft wrote:
> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. I
> have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly only
> given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
>
> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

With the trackpad they're fine since you don't need the scroll bars at 
all except, occasionally, as a visual guide to position in a window.

With a mouse (if it has a scroll wheel) it comes to the same thing.  (Or 
magic mouse I suppose, but I haven't tried one).

As Kiraly says, on large screens the smaller bars don't contribute much 
to de-clutter - but on the smaller screen of the MBA it certainly does.

Apple could have included a "narrow/wide" option for the scroll bars.

-- 
"Civilization is the limitless multiplication of unnecessary necessities."
             -Samuel Clemens.

In article <a6dbdoF6neU1@mid.individual.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:

> I find the width of the new scrollbars perfectly adequate to convey the 
> needed information clearly and without taking up unnecessary room in 
> the window. I'm using a 21.5 inch iMac with the screen resolution set 
> to 1600 x 900 pixels.

That would not be the native setting for the screen would it? It would 
be more like 1920 by something. These LCD screens set at anything but 
native always look less than sharp to me unlike the big old CRT's in 
this respect, you could vary them in res and they remained sharpish 
over a few ranges.

-- 
dorayme

In article <a6ccvcF8e2U1@mid.individual.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:

> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of 
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that 
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. 
> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly 
> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
> 
> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their 
> experiences with the new style scroll bars.

I don't like the fact that they are hidden by default in some 
configurations.

-- 
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

In article <slrnk024jh.1m4l.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
 Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> When dealing with long documents, the Trackpad is inadequate because it
> takes multiple swipes to scroll long distances, so you need the
> scroll-wheel, but it pops up for such a fleeting time that it can take 2
> or 3 tries to get it.

Not if you grab the thumb and drag it.

-- 
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:

> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of 
> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that 
> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. 
> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly 
> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.

Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where
scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes
me to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only
used the "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

With the scroll bars becoming invisible, it is annoying that you
sometimes can't tell, without trying to scroll, if there is any more
content to scroll to.

Martin

In article <myd33xelav.fsf@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>,
 Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu 
 <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:

> Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where 
> scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes me 
> to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only used the 
> "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

You can change the behavior in Lion to be the "old way".

> With the scroll bars becoming invisible, it is annoying that you 
> sometimes can't tell, without trying to scroll, if there is any more 
> content to scroll to.

You can set the scroll bars in lion to be always visible; however, you 
won't have the arrows at the ends.

Also, if you try to scroll, and there's no more content, you'll get that 
little bounce that some people complain about.

-- 
Tea Party Patriots is to Patriotism as 
People's Democratic Republic is to Democracy.

On 2012-07-14 22:31:11 +0000, dorayme said:

> In article <a6dbdoF6neU1@mid.individual.net>,
>  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> 
>> I find the width of the new scrollbars perfectly adequate to convey the
>> needed information clearly and without taking up unnecessary room in
>> the window. I'm using a 21.5 inch iMac with the screen resolution set
>> to 1600 x 900 pixels.
> 
> That would not be the native setting for the screen would it? It would
> be more like 1920 by something. These LCD screens set at anything but
> native always look less than sharp to me unlike the big old CRT's in
> this respect, you could vary them in res and they remained sharpish
> over a few ranges.

The native resolution of my iMac is 1920 by 1080.  I lowered the 
resolution to 1600 by 900 so that text would appear a bit larger, 
helping me to see it better. As an aside it is interesting how much 
sharper letters of the same size appear on my retina display iPad.

-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
> Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where
> scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes
> me to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only
> used the "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

I turned off "natural scrolling" so that it behaves the same way it 
always has. 

It's interesting that third party tools have been available for ages 
that reverse the scrolling direction, and almost nobody was interested. 
But when Apple did it and made it the default, everybody jumped on the 
bandwagon.
 
> With the scroll bars becoming invisible, it is annoying that you
> sometimes can't tell, without trying to scroll, if there is any more
> content to scroll to.

That's why I don't understand the scroll bars being hidden by default. 
With the visible scroll bar I can tell at a glance: 

-if there is more content to view,
-about what point in the document I am at, and
-about what percentage of the entire document is visible at the time.

All useful stuff to know; I'm not sure why someone would want this info 
hidden, but I guess people have their reasons. What surprises me is how 
Apple considers this number to be so big as to make it the default.

-- 
K.

Lang may your lum reek.

In message <jollyroger-1F8597.17440414072012@news.individual.net>
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> In article <slrnk024jh.1m4l.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
>  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> When dealing with long documents, the Trackpad is inadequate because it
>> takes multiple swipes to scroll long distances, so you need the
>> scroll-wheel, but it pops up for such a fleeting time that it can take 2
>> or 3 tries to get it.

> Not if you grab the thumb and drag it.

Yeah, grabbing the thumb is what takes 2-3 tries.

I meant "you need the scrollbar". I have no idea who changed 'bar' to 'wheel'.

Makes a lot less sense that way, so it couldn't have been me :)

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other. They don't
really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other. They don't
really mean it.

In message <myd33xelav.fsf@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU>
  Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:

>> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of
>> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that
>> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter.
>> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly
>> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.

> Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where
> scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes
> me to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only
> used the "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

Since I use the MagicTrackpad for scrolling and I have that only on Lion
systems, no, I don't have the problem. On non lion systems I use a
scroll wheel, and it works correctly.

(I wish Lion would allow one setting for trackpads and the oppositie for
scroll wheels).

--
"Great art is as irrational as great music. It is mad with its own
loveliness." -  George Jean Nathan

In message <jttng1$rtl$1@dont-email.me>
  Király <me@home.spamsucks.ca> wrote:
> Martin Frost me at invalid stanford daht edu <nospam@stanford.edu.invalid> wrote:
>> Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where
>> scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes
>> me to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only
>> used the "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

> I turned off "natural scrolling" so that it behaves the same way it
> always has.

> It's interesting that third party tools have been available for ages
> that reverse the scrolling direction, and almost nobody was interested.
> But when Apple did it and made it the default, everybody jumped on the
> bandwagon.

Because it makes sense with a trackpad. It really is the natural way to
scroll. I remember some people complaining about the iphone scrolling
'backwards', but they were wrong. You touch something and move up and
the content should move up. Simple. Works with any touch surface.
Doesn't work with a scroll wheel at all.

--
I WILL NOT SCREAM FOR ICE CREAM Bart chalkboard Ep. AABF03

In message <a6ev5pFinkU1@mid.individual.net>
  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> On 2012-07-14 22:31:11 +0000, dorayme said:

>> In article <a6dbdoF6neU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I find the width of the new scrollbars perfectly adequate to convey the
>>> needed information clearly and without taking up unnecessary room in
>>> the window. I'm using a 21.5 inch iMac with the screen resolution set
>>> to 1600 x 900 pixels.
>>
>> That would not be the native setting for the screen would it? It would
>> be more like 1920 by something. These LCD screens set at anything but
>> native always look less than sharp to me unlike the big old CRT's in
>> this respect, you could vary them in res and they remained sharpish
>> over a few ranges.

> The native resolution of my iMac is 1920 by 1080.  I lowered the
> resolution to 1600 by 900 so that text would appear a bit larger,
> helping me to see it better. As an aside it is interesting how much
> sharper letters of the same size appear on my retina display iPad.

No, it's not. You made your iMac fuzzy.

Granted, the iPad would still be sharper, but you made the difference a lot more dramatic.

--
"You can speak soon and write like a graduate college if me let you help
for a day of 15 minutes" "1963" Issue #1

In article <a6ev5pFinkU1@mid.individual.net>,
 TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:

> On 2012-07-14 22:31:11 +0000, dorayme said:
> 
> > In article <a6dbdoF6neU1@mid.individual.net>,
> >  TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> I find the width of the new scrollbars perfectly adequate to convey the
> >> needed information clearly and without taking up unnecessary room in
> >> the window. I'm using a 21.5 inch iMac with the screen resolution set
> >> to 1600 x 900 pixels.
> > 
> > That would not be the native setting for the screen would it? It would
> > be more like 1920 by something. These LCD screens set at anything but
> > native always look less than sharp to me unlike the big old CRT's in
> > this respect, you could vary them in res and they remained sharpish
> > over a few ranges.
> 
> The native resolution of my iMac is 1920 by 1080.  I lowered the 
> resolution to 1600 by 900 so that text would appear a bit larger, 
> helping me to see it better. 

Yes, I realise that is the reason. Some friends of mine do the same. 
My solution to this prob is to get a bigger screen at 1920 across (the 
pixels are just bigger and everything is) and keep it native res. My 
Macbook screen is very tiresome at its native res but would be too 
ugly a sight at anything but. Luckily I have other screens. Two of 
them are 1920 x 1200, the 26" one is nicer than the the 24" because 
everything is a little bigger but still sharp.


> As an aside it is interesting how much 
> sharper letters of the same size appear on my retina display iPad.


Nothing is the best on LCDs not set at native resolution. But "letters 
of the same size" is open to different interpretations.

-- 
dorayme

On 2012-07-15 07:55:36 +0000, Lewis said:

[in respoonse to my having stated]

>> The native resolution of my iMac is 1920 by 1080.  I lowered the
>> resolution to 1600 by 900 so that text would appear a bit larger,
>> helping me to see it better. As an aside it is interesting how much
>> sharper letters of the same size appear on my retina display iPad.
> 
> No, it's not. You made your iMac fuzzy.
> 
> Granted, the iPad would still be sharper, but you made the difference a 
> lot more dramatic.

I have a bit of a visual problem with the display set to 1920 by 1080, 
an example being the text in the menubar, and that is why I changed the 
resolution to 1600 by 900, making it easier for me to see. Admittedly 
the text may be a bit fuzzier but the difference in size makes it more 
readable for me.

-- 
James Leo Ryan - Austin, Texas

In article <slrnk04tep.qlt.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
 Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <jollyroger-1F8597.17440414072012@news.individual.net>
>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > In article <slrnk024jh.1m4l.g.kreme@mbp55.local>,
> >  Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> >> When dealing with long documents, the Trackpad is inadequate because it
> >> takes multiple swipes to scroll long distances, so you need the
> >> scroll-wheel, but it pops up for such a fleeting time that it can take 2
> >> or 3 tries to get it.
> 
> > Not if you grab the thumb and drag it.
> 
> Yeah, grabbing the thumb is what takes 2-3 tries.

Yeah. That's why I think reducing the size of them is a mixed bag.

-- 
Send responses to the relevant news group rather than email to me.
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my very hungry SPAM
filter. Due to Google's refusal to prevent spammers from posting
messages through their servers, I often ignore posts from Google
Groups. Use a real news client if you want me to see your posts.

JR

On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 20:48:56 -0700, Martin Frost me at invalid stanford
daht edu wrote:

> TaliesinSoft <taliesinsoft@me.com> writes:
> 
>> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of
>> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that
>> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter.
>> I have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly
>> only given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
> 
> Anybody here have to use both Lion and a pre-Lion system, where
> scrolling goes "the other way"?  I find going back and forth causes me
> to scroll the wrong way relatively often.  I'm sure if I only used the
> "new way", I'd be used to it quickly enough.

There's certainly a case for a third party add-on for pre-Lion systems to 
enable Lion like behaviour.  Caveat: I have no idea how feasible this 
would be to implement.
 
> With the scroll bars becoming invisible, it is annoying that you
> sometimes can't tell, without trying to scroll, if there is any more
> content to scroll to.
> 

I had this very problem with Linux Mint 11.  It appears that the Ubuntu 
folks have jumped onto a similar paradigm in this area. If you didn't 
know that an area was scrollable your only hint was an extremely thin 
vertical line in green and on a small screen that was hard to see.  At 
best you waved your mouse around in the general direction of where you 
thought the scrollbar might appear.

I skipped that version because of this behaviour.  Apparently it was 
configurable but by the time I found that out I had lost the will to be 
bothered.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2012-07-14 15:10:05 +0000, Alan Browne said:

> On 2012-07-14 01:04 , TaliesinSoft wrote:
>> It seems that since the release of Lion I've heard a fair number of
>> grumps regarding the new style of the scroll bars. My response is that
>> the new style is quite superior, eliminating a bit of display clutter. I
>> have no difficultyl scrolling with my Magic Trackpad and admittedly only
>> given my Magic Mouse a small number of tries.
>> 
>> So, I'm curious as to the other's here in this group regarding their
>> experiences with the new style scroll bars.
> 
> With the trackpad they're fine since you don't need the scroll bars at 
> all except, occasionally, as a visual guide to position in a window.

Or when moving a long distance.  Repeatedly swiping is goofy.

> Apple could have included a "narrow/wide" option for the scroll bars.

And they could have included optional arrows, too.  I don't have any 
particular interest in the arrows, but they do make sense for very fine 
movements (ie. one line at a time, or other small units).

Overall, though, I like the new ones better.