f



Upcoming New Newsreader for the Mac: Signal

I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to the
death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:

http://signal.subsume.com/

I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
Indiegogo.

Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .

-- 
Still .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 2:20:17 PM
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In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to 
> the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> 
> http://signal.subsume.com/
> 
> I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> Indiegogo.
> 
> Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .

Will this run on Snow Leopard? I haven't upgraded to Mavericks, so MT-NW 
still works for me, but it has some annoying bugs, mainly having to do 
with character sets (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show 
correctly).

So if there were a new, maintained newsreader that's an easy transition 
from MT-NW, I'd consider contributing.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
0
Barry
6/2/2014 2:41:47 PM
Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > Iâ•˙ve mentioned here before that Iâ•˙ve been working on a newsreader due to
> > the
> > death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> > doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> > Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> > 
> > http://signal.subsume.com/
> > 
> > I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> > commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> > see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> > Indiegogo.
> > 
> > Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .
> 
> Will this run on Snow Leopard? I haven't upgraded to Mavericks, so MT-NW
> still works for me, but it has some annoying bugs, mainly having to do
> with character sets (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show
> correctly).
> 
> So if there were a new, maintained newsreader that's an easy transition
> from MT-NW, I'd consider contributing.

I'm all for continued Usenet client development, but I'm happy with
MacSOUP. Of course I appreciate former MT-NW and Thoth users are not
having their needs met nearly as well, nowadays :-) So best of luck!

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/2/2014 2:58:17 PM
In article <1lmn9id.1cardaa1mxz95lN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> > In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>,
> >  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Iâ•˙ve mentioned here before that Iâ•˙ve been working on a newsreader due 
> > > to
> > > the
> > > death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> > > doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that 
> > > advice.
> > > Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it 
> > > via:
> > > 
> > > http://signal.subsume.com/
> > > 
> > > I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a 
> > > non-
> > > commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what 
> > > you
> > > see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> > > Indiegogo.
> > > 
> > > Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .
> > 
> > Will this run on Snow Leopard? I haven't upgraded to Mavericks, so MT-NW
> > still works for me, but it has some annoying bugs, mainly having to do
> > with character sets (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show
> > correctly).
> > 
> > So if there were a new, maintained newsreader that's an easy transition
> > from MT-NW, I'd consider contributing.
> 
> I'm all for continued Usenet client development, but I'm happy with
> MacSOUP. Of course I appreciate former MT-NW and Thoth users are not
> having their needs met nearly as well, nowadays :-) So best of luck!

For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is  the 
Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by 
side with MT-Newswatcher.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/2/2014 3:44:21 PM
In comp.sys.mac.system Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> writes,
quoting Darrin "Doc" O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com>:

> > Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.apps, comp.sys.mac.system
                              ^
Nope.

> (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show correctly).

That could be due to an undeclared Content-Type.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/2/2014 3:45:35 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> 
> I'm all for continued Usenet client development, but I'm happy with
> MacSOUP. Of course I appreciate former MT-NW and Thoth users are not
> having their needs met nearly as well, nowadays :-) So best of luck!

MACSOUP is the ultimate usenet app. I don't see a need for anything else
myself.

-- 
Howard
0
Howard
6/2/2014 4:16:47 PM
In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to
> the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> 
> http://signal.subsume.com/
> 
> I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> Indiegogo.
> 
> Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .

I may be a fool, but you just got your first fifty bucks.
0
Michelle
6/2/2014 4:37:13 PM
On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:

> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
> due to the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.

How would it be better than Unison?

0
gtr
6/2/2014 4:42:01 PM
On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>
>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>> due to the
>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>
> How would it be better than Unison?
>

I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.

By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
posting messages in Terminal.

-- 
Blah blah bleh...
GCS/CM d(-)@>-- s+:- !a C++$ UBL++++$ L+$ W+++$ w M++ Y++ b++
0
Salvatore
6/2/2014 7:20:59 PM
On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>
>>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>> due to the
>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>
>> How would it be better than Unison?
>>
>
> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>
> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
> posting messages in Terminal.

MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
modification.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/2/2014 7:29:52 PM
gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
> 
> > Iâ•˙ve mentioned here before that Iâ•˙ve been working on a newsreader
> > due to the
> > death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> > doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> 
> How would it be better than Unison?

How could it be worse? ;-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/2/2014 8:10:49 PM
On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been working on a =
newsreader due to the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.


       "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"

             Unison: still works fine.
        Thunderbird: still works fine.
             others: still work fine.

Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.  In the meantime,=20
Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.

I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.




0
Alan
6/2/2014 8:35:25 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:

> How would it be better than Unison?

It's all about choices, not better or worse.  I paid for the 1.x version of
Unison and it was unusable for me because it was painfully slow and had
horrible filtering.  I have no reason to believe it has improved as a
*functional* newsreader, which is what I most liked about MT-NewsWatcher.

To my thinking, we all benefit if there is a freely available GUI Mac
newsreader.  I'd also like to make it open source, so that such an
alternative can *always* exist.  If you can make do with what Unison
gives you or with the various options that can be run in Terminal, great.
But I still have foolishly grand ideas for what Usenet could be, and this
is the where I'm planting my first flag.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 8:54:09 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> I may be a fool, but you just got your first fifty bucks.

Only if I get the last $50, too.  It’s an "all or nothing" campaign, so nobody
is on the hook unless the community really wants something new.  But I still
really do appreciate you getting the ball rolling.  Thanks!

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 8:54:31 PM
In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to
> the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> 
> http://signal.subsume.com/
> 
> I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> Indiegogo.

Thanks for making this effort. Hopefully, you will eventually free me
from using Thoth ever again. I am proud contributor #3.

FYI, I don't know what plans you have for the user interface, but the
things I like about Thoth are

1. The simple, text-based thread display, and
2. The one-character commands for "next" and "next thread".

Good luck, and please keep us informed of your progress.

-- 
Jim Gibson
0
Jim
6/2/2014 9:03:59 PM
In article <020620141403599731%jimsgibson@gmail.com>, Jim Gibson
<jimsgibson@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to
> > the
> > death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> > doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> > Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> > 
> > http://signal.subsume.com/
> > 
> > I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> > commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> > see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> > Indiegogo.
> 
> Thanks for making this effort. Hopefully, you will eventually free me
> from using Thoth ever again. I am proud contributor #3.
> 
> FYI, I don't know what plans you have for the user interface, but the
> things I like about Thoth are
> 
> 1. The simple, text-based thread display, and
> 2. The one-character commands for "next" and "next thread".
> 
> Good luck, and please keep us informed of your progress.

Having the entire thread up in the top of the message window, as Thoth
does, would be my request. The ability to jump right from a message
window to a later post is great, especially when you see things have
devolved into a 50 post exchange between two people and you want to
skip that.

Oh, and having quoted parts in different colors :)

-- 
Chris Mack       "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan'             - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
0
Invid
6/2/2014 9:22:43 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

> Will this run on Snow Leopard? I haven't upgraded to Mavericks, so MT-NW 
> still works for me, but it has some annoying bugs, mainly having to do 
> with character sets (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show 
> correctly).

Any bugs you see from my messages are likely my fault.  :-)  I do still
run MT-NW on a 10.6 Mac, so I could shoot for Signal working that far back,
but backwards compatibility isn't a high priority at this time.  It is 10.9
and later that have the greatest need for a native newsreader, and so I'm
making use of the latest APIs where I can.  That said, if you wanted to
drop a grand on the effort to get Signal to work on something earlier, you
are more than welcome to do it.  :-)

> So if there were a new, maintained newsreader that's an easy transition 
> from MT-NW, I'd consider contributing.

Ease is a relative thing.  Signal already uses regular .newsrc files; I
pulled my current subscription list directly in from MT-NW.  It already
pulls server credential from Keychain, so I didn't even have to set up my
account here.  The most tricky things to pull from MT-NW is the filters,
which could be done (it exports an XML file) *if* someone still has a Mac
that runs MT-NW, but I'm just not sure it's worth the effort to write the
translation software to do that.

Everything else seems to be in a black box.  MT-NW has your personalities
and signatures and whatever else all locked up.  That's part of what I'm
trying to fix by creating a route for Signal to be an open source
newsreader.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 9:43:53 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> In comp.sys.mac.system Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> writes,
> quoting Darrin "Doc" O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com>:
> 
> > > Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .
> 
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.apps, comp.sys.mac.system
>                               ^
> Nope.

Yep.  Rather, my reading of RFC 5536 indicates an arbitrary amount of
whitespace can be used between elements in the list.  Please show
me that I'm mistaken and the fix is easy enough.

> > (the apostrophes in your first sentence don't show correctly).
> 
> That could be due to an undeclared Content-Type.

It's due to minimal MIME support at this time, and the Mac's desire to
do "smart" substitutions.  I've been trying to stick to 7-bit text until
MIME handling is improved, although I could just stop-gap it for now and
default to 8-bit UTF.  This is why I'd rather have things funded in advance;
jumping a chasm in two leaps is rather difficult.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 9:44:13 PM
On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to the
>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>
>        "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>
>              Unison: still works fine.
>         Thunderbird: still works fine.
>              others: still work fine.

I love how people come out of the wood work to bash anything new just
because they can't bring themselves to open their minds and embrace
change. We can see this happening with the WWDC announcements Apple made
today. It'd be pretty silly to claim that none of the above Usenet
clients could use improvement in any way.

> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.

I plan to continue using it, as are others. 

> In the meantime, Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.

Thunderbird does have problems (some that probably will never be
fixed), just like others do.

> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.

Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
might just do a better job here. And I imagine it might just do better
in other ares as well. It certainly sounds like the design will be
better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
well-designed framework such as being suggested.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/2/2014 9:47:35 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Howard.not@home.com (Howard) wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I'm all for continued Usenet client development, but I'm happy with
> > MacSOUP. Of course I appreciate former MT-NW and Thoth users are not
> > having their needs met nearly as well, nowadays :-) So best of luck!
> 
> MACSOUP is the ultimate usenet app. I don't see a need for anything else
> myself.

Some of us don't have POP email accounts, which is why I never got much
farther with MacSOUP that launching it.  It could be great for all I know,
but it sure seems outdated enough to follow MT-NW to the grave, and
Yosemite will arrive sooner than you might like.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/2/2014 9:54:30 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Howard.not@home.com (Howard) wrote:
> 
> > Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I'm all for continued Usenet client development, but I'm happy with
> > > MacSOUP. Of course I appreciate former MT-NW and Thoth users are not
> > > having their needs met nearly as well, nowadays :-) So best of luck!
> > 
> > MACSOUP is the ultimate usenet app. I don't see a need for anything else
> > myself.
> 
> Some of us don't have POP email accounts, which is why I never got much
> farther with MacSOUP that launching it.  It could be great for all I know,
> but it sure seems outdated enough to follow MT-NW to the grave, and
> Yosemite will arrive sooner than you might like.

Well if Signal manages to become a MacSOUP replacement (offline,
fantastic graphical thread tree, regular expressions killfile, views
(unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked) simple restrained extremely
functional UI, excellent KB commands, etc), not just a MT-NZ
replacement, you'll get yourself a contribution here.

Though my fondest hope is still the pipe dream of a new version of
MacSOUP with new features long missing in a modern client. But I doubt
that'll ever happen. Still, as long as MacSOUP runs on my Macs, and it's
the best at what it does (there's the opening for a new MacSOUP-like
client: it'll have to not just be 'as good as', or 'nearly as good as',
but _better_ than MacSOUP) - and it is, I'm sticking with it. MacSOUP
remains the best shareware purchase I ever made :-)

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/2/2014 10:06:27 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> It could be great for all I know,

Mmmm.

-- 
Howard
0
Howard
6/2/2014 10:13:29 PM
In article <lmioa6$r4l$2@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > I may be a fool, but you just got your first fifty bucks.
> 
> Only if I get the last $50, too.  It’s an "all or nothing"
> campaign, so nobody is on the hook unless the community really wants
> something new.  But I still really do appreciate you getting the ball
> rolling.  Thanks!

De nada.  I do hope you reach your funding goal.

> -- 
> This post is temporarily .sig-less

Actually, it's permanently .sig-less
0
Michelle
6/3/2014 1:06:28 AM
On 2014.06.02, 17:47 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>> I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=
=E2=84=A2ve been working on a newsreader due to the
>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>>
>>         "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>
>>               Unison: still works fine.
>>          Thunderbird: still works fine.
>>               others: still work fine.
>
> I love how people come out of the wood work to bash anything new just
> because they can't bring themselves to open their minds and embrace
> change. We can see this happening with the WWDC announcements Apple mad=
e
> today. It'd be pretty silly to claim that none of the above Usenet
> clients could use improvement in any way.

Your tagline of "Bring back usenet to the Mac" is complete rubbish since =

there is no obstacle to usenet on the Mac.  At all.

>> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.
>
> I plan to continue using it, as are others.

Me too.  But where it once was a growing thing it is now a thing in long =

decline.  Many reasons for that including the various social groups and=20
hobby groups and other web based group activity has blown usenet out of=20
importance.

An app is not going to reverse that.

>> In the meantime, Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.
>
> Thunderbird does have problems (some that probably will never be
> fixed), just like others do.
>
>> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.
>
> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal

It only fucked up whatever crud you put in there to make your point and=20
only on that one line.  Why did it mangle "I've" in the first line, but=20
not in the 2nd paragraph?

Other than that clever self-serving bomb you put in that one line:

=2EI'm looking at the text as I posted it and it's fine.
=2EI look at how you replied to it and it's fine.
=2EI look at it on Unison and it's fine.

=2EI look at how it's recorded on Google Groups and it's fine. (and Chrom=
e=20
didn't screw up on your bomb).

Of course, to me, all I need to see is text.  And if something is=20
mangled as above, I don't care as long as I can read the intent.

> might just do a better job here. And I imagine it might just do better
> in other ares as well. It certainly sounds like the design will be
> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
> well-designed framework such as being suggested.

It won't benefit me - and I doubt I'm alone.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/3/2014 1:27:11 AM
In article <lmir6o$ibs$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Any bugs you see from my messages are likely my fault.  :-)  I do still
> run MT-NW on a 10.6 Mac, so I could shoot for Signal working that far back,
> but backwards compatibility isn't a high priority at this time.  It is 10.9
> and later that have the greatest need for a native newsreader, and so I'm
> making use of the latest APIs where I can.  That said, if you wanted to
> drop a grand on the effort to get Signal to work on something earlier, you
> are more than welcome to do it.  :-)

Are you going to incorporate anything that's new in Yosemite?  Are you
going to program it in Swift?

BTW, one reason I donated $50 instead of $10 was all the Firefly
references.
0
Michelle
6/3/2014 1:31:38 AM
In article <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to
> the
> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> Today I went live with a campaign on Indiegogo, and you can get to it via:
> 
> http://signal.subsume.com/
> 
> I've done my best to make it the most attractive way to turn it into a non-
> commercial project.  Take a look and tell your friends if you like what you
> see.  I'll be happy to discuss Signal further here (of course! :-) or on
> Indiegogo.
> 
> Now let's see if this cross-posting works . . .

You won't be able to raise $20,000 for a newsreader given the current
interest in Usenet.

-- 
Charles
0
Charles
6/3/2014 1:53:44 AM
Small world.  I'm in St. Paul.  Nice references to the 'verse, BTW.
0
Tim
6/3/2014 2:01:40 AM
On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:44:21 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>
> For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is the 
> Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by 
> side with MT-Newswatcher.

While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better 
than nothing" solution.

Temporarily I have gone to slrn with nano as the text editor.
0
Tim
6/3/2014 2:06:26 AM
On Mon, 2 Jun 2014 19:20:59 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore 
<sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>
> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only 
> posting messages in Terminal.

slrn and nano can be directly installed on Mavericks without needing to 
install MacPorts.  The dependencies are all already present in OS X per 
my experience.
0
Tim
6/3/2014 2:10:16 AM
On 2014-06-02 20:35:25 +0000, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> said:

> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a
> newsreader due to the
>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
> 
> 
>        "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
> 
>              Unison: still works fine.
>         Thunderbird: still works fine.
>              others: still work fine.
> 
> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.  In the meantime, 
> Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.
> 
> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.

I have Unison 2 & Unison 1.8.1 which I prefer over 2.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/3/2014 2:43:00 AM
On 2014-06-03, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.02, 17:47 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a
>>>> newsreader due to the death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>>>
>>>         "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>
>>>               Unison: still works fine.
>>>          Thunderbird: still works fine.
>>>               others: still work fine.
>>
>> I love how people come out of the wood work to bash anything new just
>> because they can't bring themselves to open their minds and embrace
>> change. We can see this happening with the WWDC announcements Apple made
>> today. It'd be pretty silly to claim that none of the above Usenet
>> clients could use improvement in any way.
>
> Your tagline of "Bring back usenet to the Mac" is complete rubbish since 
> there is no obstacle to usenet on the Mac.  At all.

That tag line wasn't my creation, and I don't necessarily agree with it
or care about it, considering it's a very small and insignificant part
of the original message. Competition is good, and all Mac Usenet clients
have problems. As a software developer who has thought about creating my
own Usenet client at various times in the past, the idea of someone
creating a reusable NNTP framework is intriguing. But even if I didn't
have any interest in it, what you won't find me doing is bashing the
person who announced it!

>>> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.
>>
>> I plan to continue using it, as are others.
>
> Me too.  But where it once was a growing thing it is now a thing in long 
> decline.  Many reasons for that including the various social groups and 
> hobby groups and other web based group activity has blown usenet out of 
> importance.
>
> An app is not going to reverse that.

I couldn't care less about reversing the decline of Usenet. And I would
still like to see what Doc comes up with, if he gets that far in his
endeavour.

>>> In the meantime, Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.
>>
>> Thunderbird does have problems (some that probably will never be
>> fixed), just like others do.
>>
>>> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.
>>
>> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
>> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
>
> It only fucked up whatever crud you put in there to make your point and 
> only on that one line.  Why did it mangle "I've" in the first line, but 
> not in the 2nd paragraph?

I didn't write the line, and I don't care how or why Thunderbird fucked
it up. My news client rendered it just fine. My point, again, is that
there is room for improvement.

> Other than that clever self-serving bomb you put in that one line:

I haven't placed any bombs, and I'm not the OP, so I have a hard time
seeing how you think my reply to you is self-serving! I simply noticed
the malformed text in your reply and commented about it. I have nothing
to gain.

> .I'm looking at the text as I posted it and it's fine.
> .I look at how you replied to it and it's fine.
> .I look at it on Unison and it's fine.
>
> .I look at how it's recorded on Google Groups and it's fine. (and Chrome 
> didn't screw up on your bomb).
>
> Of course, to me, all I need to see is text.  And if something is 
> mangled as above, I don't care as long as I can read the intent.

My point is that there is room for improvement. Your reply made it seem
like you were discouraging someone for trying to improve things. That's
the only thing I object to.

>> might just do a better job here. And I imagine it might just do better
>> in other ares as well. It certainly sounds like the design will be
>> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
>> well-designed framework such as being suggested.
>
> It won't benefit me - and I doubt I'm alone.

And if you don't want it, you're going to be damn sure to knock it for
everyone else?

If you don't have anything nice to say...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 3:32:07 AM
In message <i_CdndYZoviRfRHOnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to the
>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.


>        "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"

>              Unison: still works fine.

For very low-bar values of "works" and "fine"

>         Thunderbird: still works fine.

For very low-bar values of "works" and "fine"

-- 
Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.
0
Lewis
6/3/2014 3:47:48 AM
In article <lmirql$ibs$3@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> It could be great for all I know,
> but it sure seems outdated enough to follow MT-NW to the grave, and

Why?

> Yosemite will arrive sooner than you might like.

What's wrong with Yosemite?
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 6:13:09 AM
In article <slrnloqbd1.2io.timmcn@sugaree.local>,
 Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:44:21 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> >
> > For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is the 
> > Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by 
> > side with MT-Newswatcher.
> 
> While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better 
> than nothing" solution.

That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
> 
> Temporarily I have gone to slrn with nano as the text editor.

Very Macy...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 6:16:29 AM
In article <lmio9g$r4l$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> To my thinking, we all benefit if there is a freely available GUI Mac
> newsreader.  I'd also like to make it open source, so that such an
> alternative can *always* exist. 

No need to give you money for that since thunderbird do exist.... 
I think that I can recall you being quite negative to freely available 
software... Yet you promise to make this open source if you get 50K in 
donations.

What happens if you don't reach your streetch goal?

How will this project affect devs with a longterm view but needs to be 
able to charge for their work on continuous basis?
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 6:27:45 AM
In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
> > On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> >> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
> >>
> >>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
> >>> due to the
> >>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> >>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> >>
> >> How would it be better than Unison?
> >>
> >
> > I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
> >
> > By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
> > posting messages in Terminal.
> 
> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
> modification.

Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 6:50:26 AM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> BTW, one reason I donated $50 instead of $10 was all the Firefly
> references.

Hehe, same here :-)
0
befr
6/3/2014 7:55:13 AM
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> In article <slrnloqbd1.2io.timmcn@sugaree.local>,
>  Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:44:21 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> > >
> > > For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is the 
> > > Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by
> > > side with MT-Newswatcher.
> > 
> > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
> > than nothing" solution.
> 
> That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...

Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
was pretty damn sub-par! :-D

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/3/2014 10:26:08 AM
In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > In article <slrnloqbd1.2io.timmcn@sugaree.local>,
> >  Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:44:21 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is the 
> > > > Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by
> > > > side with MT-Newswatcher.
> > > 
> > > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
> > > than nothing" solution.
> > 
> > That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
> 
> Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> was pretty damn sub-par! :-D

That would be a tempered unsubstantiated opinion... ;-P
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 11:03:53 AM
In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> > > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
> > > than nothing" solution.
> > 
> > That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
> 
> Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> was pretty damn sub-par! :-D

When I started reading newsgroups in 1990, the newsreader I used (which
was the only one I could find) was a Hypercard stack.

<http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/soft/util/mac/netnews-reader.readme>
0
Michelle
6/3/2014 2:59:16 PM
On 2014-06-03, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>
>> > > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
>> > > than nothing" solution.
>> > 
>> > That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
>> 
>> Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
>> experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
>> had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
>> was pretty damn sub-par! :-D
>
> When I started reading newsgroups in 1990, the newsreader I used (which
> was the only one I could find) was a Hypercard stack.
>
><http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/soft/util/mac/netnews-reader.readme>

I miss Hypercard!!

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 3:15:20 PM
On 2014-06-03, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>> > On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>> >> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>> >>
>> >>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>> >>> due to the
>> >>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>> >>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>> >>
>> >> How would it be better than Unison?
>> >>
>> >
>> > I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>> >
>> > By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>> > posting messages in Terminal.
>> 
>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
>> modification.
>
> Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.

Well without MacPorts, and all the baggage that comes with it, it's as
simple as: ./configure, make, sudo make install, done.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 3:16:22 PM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > > > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
> > > > than nothing" solution.
> > > 
> > > That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
> > 
> > Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> > experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> > had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> > was pretty damn sub-par! :-D
> 
> When I started reading newsgroups in 1990, the newsreader I used (which
> was the only one I could find) was a Hypercard stack.
> 
> <http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/soft/util/mac/netnews-reader.readme>

There were actually a couple decent Hypercard Usenet clients including
<http://www.macorchard.com/classic/usenet/Marconi.php>. Sadly as you
know Hypercard died a slow death and so did they. Clients like MacSOUP
and NewsWatcher arriving on the scene hastened their death, as they were
faster and more feature rich.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/3/2014 3:43:31 PM
In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
> it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.

Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.

Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
excessively long subjects.  And references.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/3/2014 4:01:04 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>        "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"

Keep in mind that I see Usenet as more than just a newsreader.  That’s why
I started by doing what seemingly no other newsreader has done: I factored
out the NNTP framework.  As I’ve stated before, Usenet is a CDN that has
never been fully taken advantage of, and the loss of MT-NW simply prompted
me to try swinging the pendulum in the other direction.

>              Unison: still works fine.

Any researcher will tell you that the value of a social network is tied to
the number of users, and making *everyone* pay $30 to get on Usenet is a
showstopper.

>         Thunderbird: still works fine.

Usenet is an “also ran” for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).  The
idea is sound (even Signal is being designed to eventually be a multi-
protocol message viewer), but the implementation is very un-Mac-like.

>              others: still work fine.

Not if they’re not essentially free, and not if they only run via Terminal.
People who use a Mac expect certain things, and even I as a *very* unpicky
guy couldn’t stand the current offering, so much so that I sunk my time
into writing a new newsreader.

> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.

*Only* a future-thinking app will revive it.  That’s my intent, and if you
don’t see it or agree with it, there is probably very little I can do to
convince you otherwise.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 4:41:25 PM
In article <030620140759166630%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > > > While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
> > > > than nothing" solution.
> > > 
> > > That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
> > 
> > Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> > experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> > had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> > was pretty damn sub-par! :-D
> 
> When I started reading newsgroups in 1990, the newsreader I used (which
> was the only one I could find) was a Hypercard stack.

Sometime around then, I was using MacSoup, batch downloading a few 
groups over a dialup while eating dinner (even a few groups takes a 
while at 300 baud). Later I'd peruse what I had received, prepare 
replies, and then queue them for batch-uploading later in the evening.

Isaac
0
isw
6/3/2014 4:47:44 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
> might just do a better job here.

Nope, nope.  At least in this case, the fault is mine.  Hopefully *was*,
because I’ve changed the outgoing headers.  If everything works as expected,
“smart quotes” should come across OK, as should things like 🍪 (at least
for readers that support Emoji).  If not, this 🐴💩 client needs more work.
:-)

> It certainly sounds like the design will be
> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
> well-designed framework such as being suggested.

It really is sad that so much software, even open source, is done in a way
that seems completely disconnected from how users or even other developers
work.  Too many seem to have the “brogrammer” mentality, and it’s really
toxic.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 4:52:25 PM
In article <lmkug8$4e9$2@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
> > sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
> > might just do a better job here.
> 
> Nope, nope.  At least in this case, the fault is mine.  Hopefully *was*,
> because I’ve changed the outgoing headers.  If everything works as 
> expected,
> “smart quotes” should come across OK, as should things like 🍪 (at 
> least
> for readers that support Emoji).  If not, this 🐴💩 client needs more 
> work.
> :-)

The apostrophes are still broken in MT-NW. Emojis weren't even a gleam 
in anyone's eye the last time any work was done on MT-NW, so it's no 
surprise they look meaningless.

-- 
Barry Margolin, barmar@alum.mit.edu
Arlington, MA
*** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
0
Barry
6/3/2014 4:56:44 PM
On 2014-06-03, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
>> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
>> might just do a better job here.
>
> Nope, nope.  At least in this case, the fault is mine.  Hopefully *was*,
> because I’ve changed the outgoing headers.  If everything works as expected,
> “smart quotes” should come across OK, as should things like 🍪 (at least
> for readers that support Emoji).  If not, this 🐴💩 client needs more work.
>:-)

Ah, well problem solved, it seems. : )

>> It certainly sounds like the design will be
>> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
>> well-designed framework such as being suggested.
>
> It really is sad that so much software, even open source, is done in a way
> that seems completely disconnected from how users or even other developers
> work.  Too many seem to have the “brogrammer” mentality, and it’s really
> toxic.

Yep, I see it daily at work and elsewhere...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 4:58:33 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.

That’s why a “from scratch” client seems the best way to go.  Cocoa has had
all that for free since I can remember.  The secondary issue is passing
things around to other systems that *don’t* have good Unicode support.

> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> excessively long subjects.  And references.

Well, I don’t think I have any of those problems, but I’m sure you’ll let me
know if I do.  :-)

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 5:00:16 PM
On 2014-06-02, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>>
>>>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>>> due to the
>>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>>
>>> How would it be better than Unison?
>>>
>>
>> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>
>> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>> posting messages in Terminal.
>
> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
> modification.
>

Yes but there are some extra libraries to grab and compile.  Looking at
the dates in the folder I use for such builds I see:

28 Oct  2013 onig-5.9.5  # Oniguruma is a regular expressions library
28 Oct  2013 libpng-1.6.6
28 Oct  2013 zlib-1.2.8
28 Oct  2013 slang-2.2.4

P.S. I can also recommend the stickytags plugin. It's useful for marking
stuff you want to come back .

-- 
Paul Sture

The final step of #heartbleed recovery is to call your mother, and advise
her to change her maiden name                                  -- @gojomo
0
Paul
6/3/2014 5:05:39 PM
On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader due to the
>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>
>
>        "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>
>              Unison: still works fine.
>         Thunderbird: still works fine.
>              others: still work fine.
>
> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.  In the meantime, 
> Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.

For anyone still reliant on dial up or limited connectivity, Thunderbird is
shite because its offline mode is so flaky, if you can even get it working.

-- 
Paul Sture

The final step of #heartbleed recovery is to call your mother, and advise
her to change her maiden name                                  -- @gojomo
0
Paul
6/3/2014 5:09:13 PM
On 2014-06-03, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> wrote:
> On 2014-06-02, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>>>
>>>>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>>>> due to the
>>>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>>>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>>>
>>>> How would it be better than Unison?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>>
>>> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>>> posting messages in Terminal.
>>
>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
>> modification.
>>
> Yes but there are some extra libraries to grab and compile.  Looking at
> the dates in the folder I use for such builds I see:
>
> 28 Oct  2013 onig-5.9.5  # Oniguruma is a regular expressions library
> 28 Oct  2013 libpng-1.6.6
> 28 Oct  2013 zlib-1.2.8
> 28 Oct  2013 slang-2.2.4

slang, which is available from the slrn site, was the only one I needed
in Mavericks, and is also a simple compile. The overhead of MacPorts
really is not needed.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 5:18:24 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> In article <lmio9g$r4l$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > To my thinking, we all benefit if there is a freely available GUI Mac
> > newsreader.  I'd also like to make it open source, so that such an
> > alternative can *always* exist. 
> 
> No need to give you money for that since thunderbird do exist.... 

Good luck trying to dig through its source.  Thunderbird is, plain and simple,
not Mac software.  I has you covered if you’re in need of something that
works on multiple platforms.  In my experience, though, people buy Macs
because they want *Macs*.

> I think that I can recall you being quite negative to freely available 
> software... Yet you promise to make this open source if you get 50K in 
> donations.

Yes.  I am still quite negative about how most open software projects are
run.  They are too often less concerned about the user experience or the
architecture of the system and more concerned about committing code, no
matter how terrible that code may be.
 
> What happens if you don't reach your streetch goal?

Then Mac users will still have access to a free newsreader that was built for
the Mac.  And developers will have access to an NNTP.framework that will
allow them to easily tap into Usenet.

> How will this project affect devs with a longterm view but needs to be 
> able to charge for their work on continuous basis?

I don’t understand the question.  I charge for *new* work I do.  That’s partly
why I’m interested in how crowdfunding seems to reverse the commercial
transaction.  The biggest risk for all new ventures is that they will fail to
find a market, so there is significant value in pre-funding working.  Venture
capitalists already know this, but why should they have all the fun?

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 5:19:39 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for making this effort. Hopefully, you will eventually free me
> from using Thoth ever again. I am proud contributor #3.

Much appreciated.

> FYI, I don't know what plans you have for the user interface, but the
> things I like about Thoth are
> 
> 1. The simple, text-based thread display, and
> 2. The one-character commands for "next" and "next thread".

I’m making notes.  :-)  Much of the earlier work, though, is going to be
getting basic functionality in place.  That’s part of the problem in starting
from scratch when there is a long history of existing client.  I, too, have
quite a bit of muscle memory from using MT-NW and various command line
newsreaders before that, all with their own keymappings.  How flexible it
can be will ultimate depend on what people really can’t do without.

> Good luck, and please keep us informed of your progress.

Will do!

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 5:28:42 PM
In article <lml0k9$4e9$5@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jim Gibson <jimsgibson@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for making this effort. Hopefully, you will eventually free me
> > from using Thoth ever again. I am proud contributor #3.
> 
> Much appreciated.
> 
> > FYI, I don't know what plans you have for the user interface, but the
> > things I like about Thoth are
> > 
> > 1. The simple, text-based thread display, and
> > 2. The one-character commands for "next" and "next thread".
> 
> I�m making notes.  :-)  Much of the earlier work, though, is going to be
> getting basic functionality in place.  That�s part of the problem in starting
> from scratch when there is a long history of existing client.  I, too, have
> quite a bit of muscle memory from using MT-NW and various command line
> newsreaders before that, all with their own keymappings.  How flexible it
> can be will ultimate depend on what people really can�t do without.
> 
> > Good luck, and please keep us informed of your progress.
> 
> Will do!

A few requests regarding U/I.  Although command-' has been the
keystroke for paste-as-quote for ages, mail.app uses command-shift-v;
so please include both of these (or at least make them user chooseable
or definable).  Also, please include command-shft-D for send (instead
of or in addition to) command-E, again, for comparibility with
mail.app.
0
Michelle
6/3/2014 5:33:26 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> wrote:

> Having the entire thread up in the top of the message window, as Thoth
> does, would be my request. The ability to jump right from a message
> window to a later post is great, especially when you see things have
> devolved into a 50 post exchange between two people and you want to
> skip that.

Article threading is an odd beast with Usenet, because parents don’t reference their children.  Combined with the fact that the (current) normal behavior of
most clients is to delete read articles, and that cross-posts are allowed, it
make for some very unusual handling of how you relate messages to one another.

My thinking is a bit more abstract as a result.  Right now, even the groups
themselves have no inherent meaning in Signal.  It’s all just a soup of
messages that (I hope) you’ll eventually be allowed to put into “smart
groups”, sort of like Mail.  That may not be fully evident in the 1.0 version
of Signal, but that’s what is happening underneath it all right now.

> Oh, and having quoted parts in different colors :)

My intention (again, probably not with 1.0) is to support Markdown, so HTML
stylesheets will all manner of crazy blockquote display is a real
possibility.  All in due time . . .

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 5:45:05 PM
On 2014-06-03, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> wrote:
>
>> Having the entire thread up in the top of the message window, as Thoth
>> does, would be my request. The ability to jump right from a message
>> window to a later post is great, especially when you see things have
>> devolved into a 50 post exchange between two people and you want to
>> skip that.
>
> Article threading is an odd beast with Usenet, because parents don’t reference their children.  Combined with the fact that the (current) normal behavior of
> most clients is to delete read articles, and that cross-posts are allowed, it
> make for some very unusual handling of how you relate messages to one another.
>
> My thinking is a bit more abstract as a result.  Right now, even the groups
> themselves have no inherent meaning in Signal.  It’s all just a soup of
> messages that (I hope) you’ll eventually be allowed to put into “smart
> groups”, sort of like Mail.  That may not be fully evident in the 1.0 version
> of Signal, but that’s what is happening underneath it all right now.
>
>> Oh, and having quoted parts in different colors :)
>
> My intention (again, probably not with 1.0) is to support Markdown, so HTML
> stylesheets will all manner of crazy blockquote display is a real
> possibility.  All in due time . . .

One feature I really miss after moving to slrn from MT-NW is an easy
simple way to search for any message by Message-ID. You would think that
something that simple would be a core feature, but you'd be wrong
regarding slrn. : (

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 5:53:02 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <lmir6o$ibs$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > Any bugs you see from my messages are likely my fault.  :-)  I do still
> > run MT-NW on a 10.6 Mac, so I could shoot for Signal working that far back,
> > but backwards compatibility isn't a high priority at this time.  It is 10.9
> > and later that have the greatest need for a native newsreader, and so I'm
> > making use of the latest APIs where I can.  That said, if you wanted to
> > drop a grand on the effort to get Signal to work on something earlier, you
> > are more than welcome to do it.  :-)
> 
> Are you going to incorporate anything that's new in Yosemite?

Well, I’m not *not* going to support Yosemite.  I transitioned plenty of
mobile apps from iOS 6 to 7, so it remains to be seen how much of a hassle it
will be to straddle the fence for the changes they’re making to Mac OS X.
Even the iOS 8 changes have me hankering to write a “Share on Usenet”
extension . . .

But, hey, some people like just using Thunderbird.  :-)

> Are you
> going to program it in Swift?

Seems unlikely.  I still want to support 10.9, and possibly older systems, for
at least another year.  I also haven’t fully evaluated Swift, so I’m not sure
how well it matches my development style.

> BTW, one reason I donated $50 instead of $10 was all the Firefly
> references.

Heh.  I tried very hard to make them without alienating anyone who wouldn’t
get them.  I regret that I couldn’t find a natural way to pair Ivan with
Crazy for the Pilot perk.  :-)

-- 
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0
Darrin
6/3/2014 5:59:41 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> In article <lmirql$ibs$3@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > It could be great for all I know,
> > but it sure seems outdated enough to follow MT-NW to the grave, and
> 
> Why?

It, too, appears to have been brought forward from OS 9 rather than being
developed for Mac OS X.  It’s impossible for any of us to say, so I’ll let
the developer speak for themselves here on their future plans.

> > Yosemite will arrive sooner than you might like.
> 
> What's wrong with Yosemite?

Perhaps the same thing that was wrong with Mavericks for MT-NW.  My point is
that we’re in the dark about Usenet software when the developers seemingly
aren’t even on Usenet anymore.  I’m here.  I’m telling you what my plans are.
If not enough people like them, I can make other plans.

-- 
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0
Darrin
6/3/2014 6:08:09 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Well if Signal manages to become a MacSOUP replacement (offline,
> fantastic graphical thread tree, regular expressions killfile, views
> (unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked) simple restrained extremely
> functional UI, excellent KB commands, etc), not just a MT-NZ
> replacement, you'll get yourself a contribution here.

And if wishes were horses, we’d all be eating steak.  This effort is not
being done so that you will eventually be able to pay for a *product* that
is of your liking.  It is being done, very deliberately, to address the
things that I find to be lacking in Mac newsreaders and the Usenet ecosystem
as a whole.  So, no, you likely won’t be getting any pretty graphs of
threads, because the idea doesn’t fit with more advanced message handling
that I’m thinking of.  Whatever other features you like that MacSOUP
provides, I can simply say stick with MacSOUP if it makes you happy.  I’m
not looking to compete with anyone by duplicating their efforts.  I’m just
looking (for starters) to fill in some of the gaps that were left by the
death of MT-NW, and hoping to do so in a forward-looking way.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 6:28:14 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote:

> You won't be able to raise $20,000 for a newsreader given the current
> interest in Usenet.

You may be right.  Then the next question is how close we’ll get.  It either reverts to becoming a commercial effort (and likely nowhere near the $10 I was thinking was fair), or remains my own personal newsreader.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/3/2014 6:36:11 PM
In article <lml4iq$am9$4@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> User-Agent: com.subsume.NNTP/1.0.0
---
> 
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Charles <fort514@mac.com> wrote:
> 
> > You won't be able to raise $20,000 for a newsreader given the current
> > interest in Usenet.
> 
> You may be right.  Then the next question is how close we’ll get.  It 
> either reverts to becoming a commercial effort (and likely nowhere near the 
> $10 I was thinking was fair), or remains my own personal newsreader.

Regards or something...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/3/2014 6:49:54 PM
Darrin "Doc" O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote,
quoting me:

> > Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.

> The secondary issue is passing things around to other systems
> that *don't* have good Unicode support.

All one can do is declare the content-type (hint: you still are
not doing that in your own messages, even though you're using a
non-ASCII charset) and let things fall where they may.

> > Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> > excessively long subjects.  And references.

> Well, I don't think I have any of those problems, but I'm sure you'll
> let me know if I do.  :-)

You can count on it.  Heh.

For the moment, though, in addition to the above, you need to drop this -

| Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.apps, comp.sys.mac.system
                                ^
				|

The space will cause some servers to silently toss your messages.
And probably will for many years to come...  I also don't buy the
argument that it supports continuation lines, because no one should
ever be posting the same thing to that many groups (more than can
be contained on one 1022 byte line).

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/3/2014 7:12:15 PM
In comp.sys.mac.apps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> One feature I really miss after moving to slrn from MT-NW is an easy
> simple way to search for any message by Message-ID. You would think that
> something that simple would be a core feature, but you'd be wrong
> regarding slrn. : (

You could ask for it...  Tin does this, by the way.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/3/2014 7:27:34 PM
In message <bv6765Fji3nU2@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-03, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>> In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
>>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>>> > On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>> >> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>> >>
>>> >>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>> >>> due to the
>>> >>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>> >>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>> >>
>>> >> How would it be better than Unison?
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>> >
>>> > By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>>> > posting messages in Terminal.
>>> 
>>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
>>> modification.
>>
>> Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.

> Well without MacPorts, and all the baggage that comes with it, it's as
> simple as: ./configure, make, sudo make install, done.

You still need that 5GB of xcode just to get the command line tools
though...

-- 
I know it all. I just can't remember it simultaneously.
0
Lewis
6/3/2014 7:33:28 PM
On 2014-06-03, billy@MIX.COM <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> In comp.sys.mac.apps Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> One feature I really miss after moving to slrn from MT-NW is an easy
>> simple way to search for any message by Message-ID. You would think that
>> something that simple would be a core feature, but you'd be wrong
>> regarding slrn. : (
>
> You could ask for it...  Tin does this, by the way.

I'm pretty sure others have already asked for it. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 7:34:10 PM
In message <barmar-A6DAC0.12564403062014@news.eternal-september.org> 
  Barry Margolin <barmar@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> In article <lmkug8$4e9$2@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

>> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
>> > sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
>> > might just do a better job here.
>> 
>> Nope, nope.  At least in this case, the fault is mine.  Hopefully *was*,
>> because I’ve changed the outgoing headers.  If everything works as 
>> expected,
>> “smart quotes” should come across OK, as should things like 🍪 (at 
>> least
>> for readers that support Emoji).  If not, this 🐴💩 client needs more 
>> work.
>> :-)

> The apostrophes are still broken in MT-NW. Emojis weren't even a gleam 
> in anyone's eye the last time any work was done on MT-NW, so it's no 
> surprise they look meaningless.

UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
on USENET did.

Remember, UTF-8 has been the defined standard for USENET since 2006.

-- 
A dyslexic walks into a bra...
0
Lewis
6/3/2014 7:35:01 PM
On 2014-06-03, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <bv6765Fji3nU2@mid.individual.net> 
>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-03, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>>> In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
>>>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>>>> > On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>>> >> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>>> >>> due to the
>>>> >>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>>> >>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> How would it be better than Unison?
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>>> >
>>>> > By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>>>> > posting messages in Terminal.
>>>> 
>>>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
>>>> modification.
>>>
>>> Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.
>
>> Well without MacPorts, and all the baggage that comes with it, it's as
>> simple as: ./configure, make, sudo make install, done.
>
> You still need that 5GB of xcode just to get the command line tools
> though...

I've got that installed anyway.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/3/2014 7:40:39 PM
On 2014.06.02, 23:32 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-03, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.02, 17:47 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:=

>>>> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>>> I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=82=
=AC=E2=84=A2ve been working on a
>>>>> newsreader due to the death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>>>>
>>>>          "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>
>>>>                Unison: still works fine.
>>>>           Thunderbird: still works fine.
>>>>                others: still work fine.
>>>
>>> I love how people come out of the wood work to bash anything new just=

>>> because they can't bring themselves to open their minds and embrace
>>> change. We can see this happening with the WWDC announcements Apple m=
ade
>>> today. It'd be pretty silly to claim that none of the above Usenet
>>> clients could use improvement in any way.
>>
>> Your tagline of "Bring back usenet to the Mac" is complete rubbish sin=
ce
>> there is no obstacle to usenet on the Mac.  At all.
>
> That tag line wasn't my creation, and I don't necessarily agree with it=

> or care about it, considering it's a very small and insignificant part
> of the original message. Competition is good, and all Mac Usenet client=
s
> have problems. As a software developer who has thought about creating m=
y
> own Usenet client at various times in the past, the idea of someone
> creating a reusable NNTP framework is intriguing. But even if I didn't
> have any interest in it, what you won't find me doing is bashing the
> person who announced it!
>
>>>> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.
>>>
>>> I plan to continue using it, as are others.
>>
>> Me too.  But where it once was a growing thing it is now a thing in lo=
ng
>> decline.  Many reasons for that including the various social groups an=
d
>> hobby groups and other web based group activity has blown usenet out o=
f
>> importance.
>>
>> An app is not going to reverse that.
>
> I couldn't care less about reversing the decline of Usenet. And I would=

> still like to see what Doc comes up with, if he gets that far in his
> endeavour.
>
>>>> In the meantime, Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.
>>>
>>> Thunderbird does have problems (some that probably will never be
>>> fixed), just like others do.
>>>
>>>> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.
>>>
>>> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because i=
t
>>> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal=

>>
>> It only fucked up whatever crud you put in there to make your point an=
d
>> only on that one line.  Why did it mangle "I've" in the first line, bu=
t
>> not in the 2nd paragraph?
>
> I didn't write the line, and I don't care how or why Thunderbird fucked=

> it up. My news client rendered it just fine. My point, again, is that
> there is room for improvement.

Sorry about that - I replied thinking it was the OP.

>
>> Other than that clever self-serving bomb you put in that one line:
>
> I haven't placed any bombs, and I'm not the OP, so I have a hard time

Above.

> seeing how you think my reply to you is self-serving! I simply noticed
> the malformed text in your reply and commented about it. I have nothing=

> to gain.
>
>> .I'm looking at the text as I posted it and it's fine.
>> .I look at how you replied to it and it's fine.
>> .I look at it on Unison and it's fine.
>>
>> .I look at how it's recorded on Google Groups and it's fine. (and Chro=
me
>> didn't screw up on your bomb).
>>
>> Of course, to me, all I need to see is text.  And if something is
>> mangled as above, I don't care as long as I can read the intent.
>
> My point is that there is room for improvement. Your reply made it seem=

> like you were discouraging someone for trying to improve things. That's=

> the only thing I object to.

Improve?  What's to improve.  It's freaking usenet!

>
>>> might just do a better job here. And I imagine it might just do bette=
r
>>> in other ares as well. It certainly sounds like the design will be
>>> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
>>> well-designed framework such as being suggested.
>>
>> It won't benefit me - and I doubt I'm alone.
>
> And if you don't want it, you're going to be damn sure to knock it for
> everyone else?
>
> If you don't have anything nice to say...

As said above, I replied in error thinking your post was the OP.  What=20
pissed me off was the insinuation on the indiegogo page that there was=20
no usenet solution for Mac.  There are several.  They work fine.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.




0
Alan
6/3/2014 9:19:57 PM
On 2014.06.02, 23:47 , Lewis wrote:
> In message <i_CdndYZoviRfRHOnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
>    Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>> I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=
=E2=84=A2ve been working on a newsreader due to the
>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>
>
>>         "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>
>>               Unison: still works fine.
>
> For very low-bar values of "works" and "fine"
>
>>          Thunderbird: still works fine.
>
> For very low-bar values of "works" and "fine"

Can I read posts?  Yes.

Can I post?  Yes.

Can I x-post? Yes.

Can I filter?  Yes.   (though a couple more fields would be nice).

Can I add attachments? Yes.

Can I read (download) attachments?  Yes.

Can I refresh the list of usenet groups? Yes.

Can I have multiple news servers?  Yes.

Not really much else I need and TB does those very well and Unison well=20
enough (and is better at multipart attachments).

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.




0
Alan
6/3/2014 9:55:39 PM
On 2014.06.03, 06:26 , Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> android <here@there.was> wrote:
>
>> In article <slrnloqbd1.2io.timmcn@sugaree.local>,
>>   Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 17:44:21 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> For those that needs a Usenet/NNTP client right now there is the
>>>> Thunderbird. It's free of charge and available now... I use it side by
>>>> side with MT-Newswatcher.
>>>
>>> While that's true, T-bird sucks badly and is really only an "it's better
>>> than nothing" solution.
>>
>> That's  an unsubstantiated opinion...
>
> Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> was pretty damn sub-par! :-D

Gross exaggeration.

I've been using TB for usenet for over a decade.  No issues.  Filtering 
could be easier to use ... but then I don't filter so much that it matters.


-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/3/2014 9:58:19 PM
In message <bv6mlnFmev1U3@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-03, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <bv6765Fji3nU2@mid.individual.net> 
>>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-03, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>>>> In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> > On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>>>> >> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
>>>>> >>> due to the
>>>>> >>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
>>>>> >>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> How would it be better than Unison?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
>>>>> > posting messages in Terminal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X without
>>>>> modification.
>>>>
>>>> Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.
>>
>>> Well without MacPorts, and all the baggage that comes with it, it's as
>>> simple as: ./configure, make, sudo make install, done.
>>
>> You still need that 5GB of xcode just to get the command line tools
>> though...

> I've got that installed anyway.

Xcode 6 is the first time I'll be using XCode itself in awhile, so I've
really resented having to install 5GB to get a few dozen MB of command
line tools. It also means I have to have Xcode installed on machine that
I would never run Xcode on (like this laptop, where almost 10% of it's
SSD was devote to the entirely useless XCode. I've since upgraded the
SSD, but still.

-- 
It's better to burn out than it is to rust -- Neil Young as quoted be
Kurt Cobain
0
Lewis
6/3/2014 10:01:29 PM
In article <020620141806288488%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> > -- 
> > This post is temporarily .sig-less

Hardly, otherwise the quoted would not be there at all. <g> 

btw, good for you for offering a kickstart to the possible new 
newsreader.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/3/2014 10:33:26 PM
On 2014.06.03, 18:01 , Lewis wrote:
> In message <bv6mlnFmev1U3@mid.individual.net>
>    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-06-03, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> In message <bv6765Fji3nU2@mid.individual.net>
>>>    Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-03, android <here@there.was> wrote:
>>>>> In article <bv41lgF5iniU5@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>>   Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2014-06-02, Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been worki=
ng on a newsreader
>>>>>>>>> due to the
>>>>>>>>> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I =
look into
>>>>>>>>> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took t=
hat advice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How would it be better than Unison?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with =
only
>>>>>>> posting messages in Terminal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MacPorts is not needed. slrn compiles just fine on Mac OS X withou=
t
>>>>>> modification.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well with MP it's usually just touch 'n go.
>>>
>>>> Well without MacPorts, and all the baggage that comes with it, it's =
as
>>>> simple as: ./configure, make, sudo make install, done.
>>>
>>> You still need that 5GB of xcode just to get the command line tools
>>> though...
>
>> I've got that installed anyway.
>
> Xcode 6 is the first time I'll be using XCode itself in awhile, so I've=

> really resented having to install 5GB to get a few dozen MB of command
> line tools. It also means I have to have Xcode installed on machine tha=
t
> I would never run Xcode on

Same here for my Pascal and Ada compilers.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/3/2014 10:37:16 PM
In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> android <here@there.was> wrote:

> ... Thunderbird is just about the worst
> experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> was pretty damn sub-par! :-D

Outlook Express was terrific on the Mac, I had no trouble at all on my 
SE30 et al.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 12:04:21 AM
In article <lml2ec$am9$1@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Are you going to program it in Swift?

Seems unlikely.  I still want to support 10.9, and possibly older
systems, for at least another year.  I also haven�t fully evaluated
Swift, so I�m not sure how well it matches my development style.

I would think that if you didn't use the Yosemite APLs, there wouldn't
be any problem.  I guess it would be too much to have a "fat" version
that would use the Yosemite APLs when running in that environment and
use earlier APLs when in earlier environments.

> > BTW, one reason I donated $50 instead of $10 was all the Firefly
> > references.
> 
> Heh.  I tried very hard to make them without alienating anyone who wouldn�t
> get them.  I regret that I couldn�t find a natural way to pair Ivan with
> Crazy for the Pilot perk.  :-)

Oh, and the other reason was to get the betas.  ;)
0
Michelle
6/4/2014 1:55:46 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > In article <lmirql$ibs$3@dont-email.me>,
> >  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > It could be great for all I know,
> > > but it sure seems outdated enough to follow MT-NW to the grave, and
> > 
> > Why?
> 
> It, too, appears to have been brought forward from OS 9 rather than being
> developed for Mac OS X.  It's impossible for any of us to say, so I'll let
> the developer speak for themselves here on their future plans.
> 
> > > Yosemite will arrive sooner than you might like.
> > 
> > What's wrong with Yosemite?
> 
> Perhaps the same thing that was wrong with Mavericks for MT-NW.

MT-NW was using an old networking framework (Open Transport) which Apple
had deprecated several OS X versions ago then removed in Mavericks. As
MT-NW wasn't being maintained any more it stopped working.

Despite its similar age, MacSOUP had already moved away from that
particular networking framework, and the developer has at least been
making minor updates in the last few years to fix compatibility and
cosmetic issues with recent OS X versions (and even made some minor
feature improvements).

If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major work
on it.

> My point is that we're in the dark about Usenet software when the
> developers seemingly aren't even on Usenet anymore.  I'm here.  I'm
> telling you what my plans are. If not enough people like them, I can make
> other plans.

I'm another who really likes MacSOUP's tree view, regular expression
filters, colouring of quote levels, and offline mode of operation, to
the extent that I'm willing to live with its archaic user interface and
other limitations.

I care nothing for binary groups. I had a brief look at Unison a while
ago and rejected it as a potential MacSOUP replacement (probably version
1.x, and it sounds like 2.x is worse). I'd prefer to stick with an
offline newsreader, which rules out most of the candidates.

Assuming Signal doesn't offer most of the MacSOUP features I like, the
part of the project which is most likely to be of interest to me is your
NNTP library, which would save me some effort in writing a newsreader
which worked the way I like, should I ever have the time and inclination
to do so.

As such, I'm willing to contribute to the project, even it seems a
wasted effort as I doubt you will reach your 20K target.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
6/4/2014 2:15:46 AM
In message <1lmpx4k.n427ivpjcvk9N%dempson@actrix.gen.nz> 
  David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:> If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
> 32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
> of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major work
> on it.

That is coming. Not today, but I would expect to see that in 10.11. I
think 2007 was the last time Apple sold a 32 bit computer.

> I'm another who really likes MacSOUP's tree view, regular expression
> filters, colouring of quote levels, and offline mode of operation, to
> the extent that I'm willing to live with its archaic user interface and
> other limitations.

I do not consider a news reader passable without regex filters,
understanding of XOVER, colored quote levels, and the ability to
collapse quotes when reading.

> I care nothing for binary groups. I had a brief look at Unison a while
> ago and rejected it as a potential MacSOUP replacement (probably version
> 1.x, and it sounds like 2.x is worse). I'd prefer to stick with an
> offline newsreader, which rules out most of the candidates.

If I wanted binaries, I'd make nzb files. I've never used a newsreader
for binaries other than very limited (like grabbing some random fractal
images from some of the groups).

-- 
Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all
the time might start to think.
0
Lewis
6/4/2014 2:59:01 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > Well if Signal manages to become a MacSOUP replacement (offline,
> > fantastic graphical thread tree, regular expressions killfile, views
> > (unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked) simple restrained extremely
> > functional UI, excellent KB commands, etc), not just a MT-NZ
> > replacement, you'll get yourself a contribution here.
> 
> And if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak.  This effort is not
> being done so that you will eventually be able to pay for a *product* that
> is of your liking.  It is being done, very deliberately, to address the
> things that I find to be lacking in Mac newsreaders and the Usenet ecosystem
> as a whole.  So, no, you likely won't be getting any pretty graphs of
> threads, because the idea doesn't fit with more advanced message handling
> that I'm thinking of.  Whatever other features you like that MacSOUP
> provides, I can simply say stick with MacSOUP if it makes you happy.  I'm
> not looking to compete with anyone by duplicating their efforts.  I'm just
> looking (for starters) to fill in some of the gaps that were left by the
> death of MT-NW, and hoping to do so in a forward-looking way.

I understand, but MacSOUP is hardly perfect. Off the top of my head: it
only handles insecure POP, it has no attachment support or image
viewing, nor built in spellchecking support, and it's filters are
limited to only a handful of headers.

You may not be going that way :-) But there is definitely room to
improve for the Mac offline Usenet client. Witness Hogwasher - the
aborted effort to make a better MacSOUP, only the developer never
supported it well enough to get me to switch.

Finally I think you're wrong to ignore the helpfulness of simple
graphical thread trees, regardless of the direction you're taking. But
that's just my personal view - I couldn't imagine being without them on
any decent sized screen after using MacSOUP for the past couple decades.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 6:10:36 AM
<billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
> 
> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
> 
> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> excessively long subjects.  And references.
> 
> Billy Y..

Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 6:10:38 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).

Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 6:10:39 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lmpx4k.n427ivpjcvk9N%dempson@actrix.gen.nz> 
>   David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> > If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
> > 32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
> > of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major work
> > on it.
> 
> That is coming. Not today, but I would expect to see that in 10.11.

I hope it isn't that soon. There are still an awful lot of 32-bit-only
popular applications out there. It isn't easy to identify which ones
depend on old APIs and frameworks which are at greater risk of being
dropped by Apple.

Apple's own DVD Player is still 32-bit. So are Microsoft Office 2011,
FileMaker Pro 13 and some Adobe applications. These in particular have
enough history that they could still be dependent on 32-bit Carbon, as
could a lot of smaller ones I notice on my computer (e.g. BBEdit).

Getting back to MacSOUP specifically, one old feature I have noted is
that it still has a limit of 31 characters for filenames when saving
articles. If that is due to using an old API rather than an internal
data structure, that seems like something which would be at greater risk
of being dropped in a new OS X version.

> I think 2007 was the last time Apple sold a 32 bit computer.

Macs, yes. August 2007 is when the Mac Mini went to Core 2 Duo. All
other Intel Macs had 64-bit processors by November 2006.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
6/4/2014 7:01:58 AM
In article <1lmq2nh.2j238l1sfqo8zN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
<dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> > > If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
> > > 32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
> > > of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major work
> > > on it.
> > 
> > That is coming. Not today, but I would expect to see that in 10.11.
> 
> I hope it isn't that soon. There are still an awful lot of 32-bit-only
> popular applications out there. It isn't easy to identify which ones
> depend on old APIs and frameworks which are at greater risk of being
> dropped by Apple.

it's going to be sooner than many people think. 

the writing is on the wall and has been for a while. 

carbon core has been deprecated for a few years already. 

> Apple's own DVD Player is still 32-bit. 

macs no longer have a dvd drive so they'll just stop including it.

dvd player didn't support external dvd drives anyway so there's no
longer a need for it other than older hardware.

> So are Microsoft Office 2011,
> FileMaker Pro 13 and some Adobe applications. These in particular have
> enough history that they could still be dependent on 32-bit Carbon, as
> could a lot of smaller ones I notice on my computer (e.g. BBEdit).

third party apps will have to be updated, as they have in the past when
apple made other major changes. nothing new there.
0
nospam
6/4/2014 7:17:04 AM
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > Then allow me to substantiate it: Thunderbird is just about the worst
> > experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> > had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> > was pretty damn sub-par! :-D
> 
> Gross exaggeration.
> 
> I've been using TB for usenet for over a decade.  No issues.  Filtering
> could be easier to use ... but then I don't filter so much that it matters.

+1
-- 
Barnab�
0
b
6/4/2014 8:10:59 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <1lmq2nh.2j238l1sfqo8zN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
> <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> 
> > > > If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
> > > > 32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
> > > > of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major work
> > > > on it.
> > > 
> > > That is coming. Not today, but I would expect to see that in 10.11.
> > 
> > I hope it isn't that soon. There are still an awful lot of 32-bit-only
> > popular applications out there. It isn't easy to identify which ones
> > depend on old APIs and frameworks which are at greater risk of being
> > dropped by Apple.
> 
> it's going to be sooner than many people think. 
> 
> the writing is on the wall and has been for a while. 
>
> carbon core has been deprecated for a few years already. 

QuickDraw in 10.4, several bits in 10.5, and a few more in 10.6, if
memory serves.

> > Apple's own DVD Player is still 32-bit. 
> 
> macs no longer have a dvd drive so they'll just stop including it.

One does: MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012), and Apple still sells their
external drive.

> dvd player didn't support external dvd drives anyway so there's no
> longer a need for it other than older hardware.

You're making stuff up again.

DVD Player works fine with both of the external DVD drives I have here
(Pioneer Blu-ray writer, LG DVD writer), under Mavericks on my Late 2013
MacBook Pro. I've also previously used it with my other external Pioneer
DVD writer. It certainly works with Apple's USB SuperDrive.

> > So are Microsoft Office 2011, FileMaker Pro 13 and some Adobe
> > applications. These in particular have enough history that they could
> > still be dependent on 32-bit Carbon, as could a lot of smaller ones I
> > notice on my computer (e.g. BBEdit).
> 
> third party apps will have to be updated, as they have in the past when
> apple made other major changes. nothing new there.

Agreed.

The difficulty is that when Apple does pull the plug on the deprecated
Carbon APIs, it will be hard for end users (or support people) to
identify which applications will stop working, short of resorting to
user-contributed lists like roaringapps.com, or trying each application
on a test installation and seeing which ones fail to launch.

Classic being dropped in 10.5 (10.4 for Intel) and Rosetta being dropped
in 10.7 were easier to deal with, because most of the broken
applications could be spotted by looking for Classic or PowerPC
applications in System Profiler.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
6/4/2014 10:34:21 AM


On 6/2/14 10:32 PM, in article bv4ttnFb07nU1@mid.individual.net, "Jolly
Roger" <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-03, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.02, 17:47 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-02, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 2014.06.02, 10:20 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>>>> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a
>>>>> newsreader due to the death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.
>>>> 
>>>>         "Signal: Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>> 
>>>>               Unison: still works fine.
>>>>          Thunderbird: still works fine.
>>>>               others: still work fine.
>>> 
>>> I love how people come out of the wood work to bash anything new just
>>> because they can't bring themselves to open their minds and embrace
>>> change. We can see this happening with the WWDC announcements Apple made
>>> today. It'd be pretty silly to claim that none of the above Usenet
>>> clients could use improvement in any way.
>> 
>> Your tagline of "Bring back usenet to the Mac" is complete rubbish since
>> there is no obstacle to usenet on the Mac.  At all.
> 
> That tag line wasn't my creation, and I don't necessarily agree with it
> or care about it, considering it's a very small and insignificant part
> of the original message. Competition is good, and all Mac Usenet clients
> have problems. As a software developer who has thought about creating my
> own Usenet client at various times in the past, the idea of someone
> creating a reusable NNTP framework is intriguing. But even if I didn't
> have any interest in it, what you won't find me doing is bashing the
> person who announced it!
> 
>>>> Usenet is a dying medium and an app won't revive it.
>>> 
>>> I plan to continue using it, as are others.
>> 
>> Me too.  But where it once was a growing thing it is now a thing in long
>> decline.  Many reasons for that including the various social groups and
>> hobby groups and other web based group activity has blown usenet out of
>> importance.
>> 
>> An app is not going to reverse that.
> 
> I couldn't care less about reversing the decline of Usenet. And I would
> still like to see what Doc comes up with, if he gets that far in his
> endeavour.
> 
>>>> In the meantime, Thunderbird is more than adequate and free.
>>> 
>>> Thunderbird does have problems (some that probably will never be
>>> fixed), just like others do.
>>> 
>>>> I also have Unison 2.  But prefer the simple layout of TB.
>>> 
>>> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because it
>>> sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply. I imagine Signal
>> 
>> It only fucked up whatever crud you put in there to make your point and
>> only on that one line.  Why did it mangle "I've" in the first line, but
>> not in the 2nd paragraph?
> 
> I didn't write the line, and I don't care how or why Thunderbird fucked
> it up. My news client rendered it just fine. My point, again, is that
> there is room for improvement.
> 
>> Other than that clever self-serving bomb you put in that one line:
> 
> I haven't placed any bombs, and I'm not the OP, so I have a hard time
> seeing how you think my reply to you is self-serving! I simply noticed
> the malformed text in your reply and commented about it. I have nothing
> to gain.
> 
>> .I'm looking at the text as I posted it and it's fine.
>> .I look at how you replied to it and it's fine.
>> .I look at it on Unison and it's fine.
>> 
>> .I look at how it's recorded on Google Groups and it's fine. (and Chrome
>> didn't screw up on your bomb).
>> 
>> Of course, to me, all I need to see is text.  And if something is
>> mangled as above, I don't care as long as I can read the intent.
> 
> My point is that there is room for improvement. Your reply made it seem
> like you were discouraging someone for trying to improve things. That's
> the only thing I object to.
> 
>>> might just do a better job here. And I imagine it might just do better
>>> in other ares as well. It certainly sounds like the design will be
>>> better, and the general community would certainly benefit from a
>>> well-designed framework such as being suggested.
>> 
>> It won't benefit me - and I doubt I'm alone.
> 
> And if you don't want it, you're going to be damn sure to knock it for
> everyone else?
> 
> If you don't have anything nice to say...

It NEVER has had anything nice to say: it's all about him.


0
George
6/4/2014 3:27:50 PM
On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
><billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>
>> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
>> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
>> 
>> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
>> 
>> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
>> excessively long subjects.  And references.
>> 
>> Billy Y..
>
> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.

I wouldn't call it irrelevant, but a nice-to-have.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/4/2014 3:41:08 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> 
> Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
> 
> -- 
> If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 4:00:06 PM
Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!

For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> 
> Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.

And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
account.  Which I don’t have.  Which is why I didn’t bother checking it out
further.  If you’d like it to be more popular as a Usenet client, I suggest
you tell the developer to address that.  It’s been mentioned time after time
on similar discussions here, but I guess that the MacSOUP developer doesn’t
read Usenet.


-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 4:07:44 PM
On 2014-06-04, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
>
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>
>> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
>> 
>> Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
>> outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
>> fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
>> and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
>> to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
>
> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
> account.  Which I don’t have.  Which is why I didn’t bother checking it out
> further.

That was actually a deterrent for me as well.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/4/2014 4:09:59 PM
In article <lmng8f$i0l$3@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
> 
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> > 
> > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
> 
> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
> account.  Which I don’t have.  

Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.

-- 
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
0
Tim
6/4/2014 4:11:05 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
> on USENET did.

To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Mac’s past, and
there are a ton of things Carbon didn’t do that Cocoa developers get for
free.  That’s a big part of why starting from “scratch” is going to be
better in the long run.


-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 4:15:54 PM
On 2014-06-04, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <lmng8f$i0l$3@dont-email.me>, Doc
><droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>
>> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
>> 
>> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>> 
>> > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
>> > 
>> > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
>> > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
>> > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
>> > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
>> > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
>> 
>> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
>> account.  Which I don’t have.  
>
> Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.

So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/4/2014 4:22:45 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> ><billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> >
> >> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
> >> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
> >> 
> >> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
> >> 
> >> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> >> excessively long subjects.  And references.
> >> 
> >> Billy Y..
> >
> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> 
> I wouldn't call it irrelevant, but a nice-to-have.

*shrug* I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it? Still, Billy calling
it the "biggest problem in newsreaders today" strikes me as absurd. We
all have our own favoured features and bugbears, but put in rational
context, it's hard to see Unicode as any more than - as JR puts it - a
"nice-to-have".

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 4:25:26 PM
In article <1lmqh6r.1p8iwufw1uoqqN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz>, David Empson
<dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> > > > > If Apple were to remove other major components such as support for
> > > > > 32-bit Carbon applications, then I'd expect that to trigger the demise
> > > > > of MacSOUP, as the developer seems to not have the time to do major
> > > > > work on it.
> > > > 
> > > > That is coming. Not today, but I would expect to see that in 10.11.
> > > 
> > > I hope it isn't that soon. There are still an awful lot of 32-bit-only
> > > popular applications out there. It isn't easy to identify which ones
> > > depend on old APIs and frameworks which are at greater risk of being
> > > dropped by Apple.
> > 
> > it's going to be sooner than many people think. 
> > 
> > the writing is on the wall and has been for a while. 
> >
> > carbon core has been deprecated for a few years already. 
> 
> QuickDraw in 10.4, several bits in 10.5, and a few more in 10.6, if
> memory serves.

i was specifically referring to this:
<https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/releasenotes/General/CarbonCore
Deprecations/>

> > > Apple's own DVD Player is still 32-bit. 
> > 
> > macs no longer have a dvd drive so they'll just stop including it.
> 
> One does: MacBook Pro (13-inch, Mid 2012), and Apple still sells their
> external drive.

i knew someone would bring that up. 

that macbook is 2 years old without any an update and is almost
certainly going to be discontinued this year.

it *will* be history whenever 32 bit carbon is dropped which won't be
for at least another year anyway.

> > dvd player didn't support external dvd drives anyway so there's no
> > longer a need for it other than older hardware.
> 
> You're making stuff up again.
> 
> DVD Player works fine with both of the external DVD drives I have here
> (Pioneer Blu-ray writer, LG DVD writer), under Mavericks on my Late 2013
> MacBook Pro. I've also previously used it with my other external Pioneer
> DVD writer. It certainly works with Apple's USB SuperDrive.

unless they changed recent versions of dvd player for macs without
internal dvd drives, it is true, and apple's superdrive would be an
exception anyway. 

the reason is because they have to license dvd playback and they know
exactly how many drives have been sold but would have no idea how many
third party external drives might be used. apple's own superdrive works
because they just count that towards the licensing fees. 

<http://www.cnet.com/news/addressing-dvd-player-error-70012-when-using-e
xternal-drives-in-os-x/>
  Apple's DVD Player will only work with internal DVD drives and will
  give an error -70012 if you open it with only an external DVD drive
  attached.

> > > So are Microsoft Office 2011, FileMaker Pro 13 and some Adobe
> > > applications. These in particular have enough history that they could
> > > still be dependent on 32-bit Carbon, as could a lot of smaller ones I
> > > notice on my computer (e.g. BBEdit).
> > 
> > third party apps will have to be updated, as they have in the past when
> > apple made other major changes. nothing new there.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> The difficulty is that when Apple does pull the plug on the deprecated
> Carbon APIs, it will be hard for end users (or support people) to
> identify which applications will stop working, short of resorting to
> user-contributed lists like roaringapps.com, or trying each application
> on a test installation and seeing which ones fail to launch.
> 
> Classic being dropped in 10.5 (10.4 for Intel) and Rosetta being dropped
> in 10.7 were easier to deal with, because most of the broken
> applications could be spotted by looking for Classic or PowerPC
> applications in System Profiler.

they can put a circle-slash on the icon.

i've just started watching this year's wwdc videos and have already
seen one hint that 32 bit will go away relatively soon. 

if the rumoured arm-based mac is true, it will be trivial to tell:
native arm apps versus legacy intel apps.
0
nospam
6/4/2014 4:35:15 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Any researcher will tell you that the value of a social network is tied to
> the number of users, and making *everyone* pay $30 to get on Usenet is a
> showstopper.

Friction is also a showstopper. Will you automate signing up with a
newsserver?

-- 
Mvh./Regards,    Niels J�rgen Kruse,    Vanl�se, Denmark
0
nospam
6/4/2014 4:56:17 PM
On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> ><billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
>> >> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
>> >> 
>> >> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
>> >> 
>> >> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
>> >> excessively long subjects.  And references.
>> >> 
>> >> Billy Y..
>> >
>> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>> 
>> I wouldn't call it irrelevant, but a nice-to-have.
>
> *shrug* I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it? Still, Billy calling
> it the "biggest problem in newsreaders today" strikes me as absurd. We
> all have our own favoured features and bugbears, but put in rational
> context, it's hard to see Unicode as any more than - as JR puts it - a
> "nice-to-have".

For most Usenet use cases, yes. For other unrelated use cases, Unicode
is extremely important.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/4/2014 5:31:35 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
> 
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> > 
> > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
> 
> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
> account.  Which I don't have.  Which is why I didn't bother checking it out
> further.  If you'd like it to be more popular as a Usenet client, I suggest
> you tell the developer to address that.  It's been mentioned time after time
> on similar discussions here, but I guess that the MacSOUP developer doesn't
> read Usenet.

Yeah, MacSOUP has some quirks. No one said it was perfect. Just very
good at what it does. Which sadly isn't enough for email any more -
being insecure POP only, with no HTML or attachment support. At least
Usenet remains plain text. I do miss using MacSOUP for mailing lists,
though *sigh* It's so much better for reading threaded conversations
than Apple Mail, or any other 'modern' email client I've tried.

Anyway, I'm surprised any Mac Usenet developer wouldn't try all the
major Mac Usenet clients to. There are only handful left, so it wouldn't
take long :-)

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 5:34:09 PM
Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <lmng8f$i0l$3@dont-email.me>, Doc
> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
> > 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> > 
> > > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> > > 
> > > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> > > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> > > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> > > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> > > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
> > 
> > And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
> > account.  Which I don't have.  
> 
> Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.

To reply or forward via email. Plus MacSOUP has it's own bare bones
plain text only email client. Still, it would be nice if it did not
insist, as free insecure POP accounts are not as common as they once
were. But MacSOUP has been in bugfix and OS compatibility mode only, for
over a decade now. Another reason why a modern offline reader in the
style of MacSOUP would be wonderful, but highly unlikely given Usenet's
declining user base.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 5:34:10 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> A few requests regarding U/I.  Although command-' has been the
> keystroke for paste-as-quote for ages, mail.app uses command-shift-v;
> so please include both of these (or at least make them user chooseable
> or definable).  Also, please include command-shft-D for send (instead
> of or in addition to) command-E, again, for comparibility with
> mail.app.

My approach currently is to primarily follow what Mail and/or Messages do,
since that is what most people are going to expect.  Alternative mappings
will get in there at some point, mainly to support people use are used to
different single-character navigation keys.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 5:35:31 PM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2014-06-04, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> >> ><billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> >> 
> >> >> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
> >> >> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> >> >> excessively long subjects.  And references.
> >> >> 
> >> >> Billy Y..
> >> >
> >> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> >> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> >> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> >> 
> >> I wouldn't call it irrelevant, but a nice-to-have.
> >
> > *shrug* I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> > express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it? Still, Billy calling
> > it the "biggest problem in newsreaders today" strikes me as absurd. We
> > all have our own favoured features and bugbears, but put in rational
> > context, it's hard to see Unicode as any more than - as JR puts it - a
> > "nice-to-have".
> 
> For most Usenet use cases, yes. For other unrelated use cases, Unicode
> is extremely important.

Absolutely. I can't imagine using a GUI text editor without full Unicode
support nowadays, for example!
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 5:37:37 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> I do not consider a news reader passable without regex filters,
> understanding of XOVER, colored quote levels, and the ability to
> collapse quotes when reading.

Then 1.0 versions of anything new is going to be tough for you to swallow.
The regex filtering comes for free (to a certain extent), XOVER is already
outdated (I support it in Signal for compatibility, but just use OVER if
available), and the viewer will be a work in progress (e.g., I’m not sure
arbitrary coloring of quotes is the best way to express/track a long
conversation).

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 5:49:13 PM
In article <bv8velF6vgvU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-04, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > In article <lmng8f$i0l$3@dont-email.me>, Doc
> ><droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
> >> 
> >> For your reference, records indicate that 
> >> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
> >> > 
> >> > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
> >> > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
> >> > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
> >> > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
> >> > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
> >> 
> >> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
> >> account.  Which I don’t have.  
> >
> > Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.
> 
> So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.

Hummmph. Something I never do.

-- 
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
0
Tim
6/4/2014 6:08:47 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote about Unicode:

> I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it?

What about everyone else?

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/4/2014 7:01:02 PM
<billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote about Unicode:
> 
> > I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> > express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it?
> 
> What about everyone else?
> 
> Billy Y..

Ask that without using the ASCII charset and I'll take notice.

In my nearly two decades in Usenet I've yet to see any Endlish language
post that relied so heavily on the extended charset, I couldn't
understand it just fine with a few ?'s scattered in-between the ASCII
chars.

But hey - it's obviously a super pressing issue for you, so I wish you
well :-)

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/4/2014 7:21:45 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote,
quoting Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net>:

> > Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.
>
> To reply or forward via email.

As in Followup-To: poster

Email should be configurable, though.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/4/2014 7:55:39 PM
On 2014-06-04, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> In article <bv8velF6vgvU1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
><jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-04, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> > In article <lmng8f$i0l$3@dont-email.me>, Doc
>> ><droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
>> >> 
>> >> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> >> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> >> > 
>> >> > > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
>> >> > 
>> >> > Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
>> >> > outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
>> >> > fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
>> >> > and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
>> >> > to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
>> >> 
>> >> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
>> >> account.  Which I don’t have.  
>> >
>> > Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.
>> 
>> So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
>
> Hummmph. Something I never do.

I've done it a few times a year or so.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/4/2014 8:09:39 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> You may not be going that way :-) But there is definitely room to
> improve for the Mac offline Usenet client. Witness Hogwasher - the
> aborted effort to make a better MacSOUP, only the developer never
> supported it well enough to get me to switch.

You have to consider that support is a two way street.  If there just aren’t
the number of registrations, you can’t be surprised when developers spend
their time on more fruitful projects.  Even Brian Clark doesn’t look quite
so bad when you actually do the economics how much he put into Thoth and
(likely) how little he got in return.

That’s part of why I’m not really looking to make Signal a commercial
effort, because all evidence shows that pouring 1000 hours into detailed
polishing is still unlikely to get most people to part with even $10.  The
only sane approach is the one I’ve taken: ask for the money in advance for
the future effort from people who *can* see the value, and then in return
look to make it free-as-in-beer to anyone else who wants to participate,
and hopefully even free-as-in-speech so that we can put an end to the
cycle of revolving newsreaders on the Mac.

> Finally I think you're wrong to ignore the helpfulness of simple
> graphical thread trees, regardless of the direction you're taking. But
> that's just my personal view - I couldn't imagine being without them on
> any decent sized screen after using MacSOUP for the past couple decades.

Well, if you have a drop-in replacement to NSOutlineView, it would take very
little effort to incorporate it.  Otherwise, it all takes work, and likely
even substantially more than the $1K that would get it done as a Pilot perk.
I’d say that’s a bargain, but nobody has bit at the upper level perks yet.

In general, trying to create a hierarchy at all is troublesome for Usenet.
The default/expected behavior is to delete nodes that are unavailable (for
whatever reason), so most graphing would either misrepresent what I expect
from that kind of visualization, or it would include all the nodes that are
the crud I didn’t want to see.

What I’d be more inclined to do is repurpose the tree map I use for My Busy
Day, which seems like a more sufficiently abstract way of representing the
dimensions of a transient discussion that Usenet embodies.  But, really,
this is all putting the cart before the horse.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/4/2014 10:05:40 PM
In article <CFB4A526.ABDF6%ghost_topper@hotmail.com>,
 George Kerby <ghost_topper@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > If you don't have anything nice to say...
> 
> It NEVER has had anything nice to say: it's all about him.

And, of course, you have to quote the [snipped] just to say this?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 10:28:59 PM
In article <lmnfq6$i0l$2@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> > -- 
> > If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Is like saying this sentence has no words.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 10:30:50 PM
In article <lmngnp$i0l$4@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
> > UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
> > on USENET did.
> 
> To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Mac’s past, and
> there are a ton of things Carbon didn’t do that Cocoa developers get for
> free.  That’s a big part of why starting from “scratch” is going to be
> better in the long run.

Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 10:36:41 PM
In article <1lmr2i6.m4oxs69oehu8N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> *shrug* I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it? Still, Billy calling
> it the "biggest problem in newsreaders today" strikes me as absurd. We
> all have our own favoured features and bugbears, but put in rational
> context, it's hard to see Unicode as any more than - as JR puts it - a
> "nice-to-have".

It is *more* than nice to have when one poster (like the OP) uses so 
many characters that appear badly on MT-NW.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 10:38:27 PM
In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
 Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> 
> Hummmph. Something I never do.

Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I 
usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I 
accede and MT-NW has the facility.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/4/2014 10:43:27 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> You have to consider that support is a two way street.  If there just aren't
> the number of registrations, you cant be surprised when developers spend
> their time on more fruitful projects.  Even Brian Clark doesn't look quite
> so bad when you actually do the economics how much he put into Thoth and
> (likely) how little he got in return.
>
> That's part of why I'm not really looking to make Signal a commercial
> effort, because all evidence shows that pouring 1000 hours into detailed
> polishing is still unlikely to get most people to part with even $10.

I put considerably more than 1000 hours into the PDP-11 Kermit (a free,
'open source' assembly language file transfer utility).  I did it mainly
because I needed it myself (at the time most videotape edit systems were
PDP-11 based).  I didn't need to be compensated for the work (I already
earn plenty..), but I wound up benefitting quite a bit from it, via
collaborating with many exceptionally sharp people I probably wouldn't
have otherwise met.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/5/2014 12:27:29 AM
On 2014.06.04, 02:10 , Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>
>> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
>>> it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
>>
>> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
>>
>> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
>> excessively long subjects.  And references.
>>
>> Billy Y..
>
> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.

Heartily agree.


-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/5/2014 1:33:54 AM
In article <do_ray_me-C2133E.08364105062014@aioe.org>, dorayme
<do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> In article <lmngnp$i0l$4@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > 
> > > UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
> > > on USENET did.
> > 
> > To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Mac’s past, and
> > there are a ton of things Carbon didn’t do that Cocoa developers get for
> > free.  That’s a big part of why starting from “scratch” is going to be
> > better in the long run.
> 
> Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
> extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?

They appeared just fine in Thoth.
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 2:25:37 AM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <do_ray_me-C2133E.08364105062014@aioe.org>, dorayme
> <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <lmngnp$i0l$4@dont-email.me>,
> >  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
> > > > on USENET did.
> > > 
> > > To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Macâ•˙s
> > > past, and there are a ton of things Carbon didnâ•˙t do that Cocoa
> > > developers get for free.  Thatâ•˙s a big part of why starting from
> > > ╲scratch╡ is going to be better in the long run.
> > 
> > Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an
> > extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?
> 
> They appeared just fine in Thoth.

Hardly the point.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 3:05:55 AM
In message <1lmq2nh.2j238l1sfqo8zN%dempson@actrix.gen.nz> 
  David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
> Getting back to MacSOUP specifically, one old feature I have noted is
> that it still has a limit of 31 characters for filenames when saving
> articles. If that is due to using an old API rather than an internal
> data structure, that seems like something which would be at greater risk
> of being dropped in a new OS X version.

It is. I recall MS Office X had that same limitation.

However, if Filemkaer and Office and some Adobe apps are still 32 bit (I
mean, seriously people, get with it) then 10.11 is too soon. What we
might see in 10.11 is a "Warning: this application relies on deprecated
32-bit libraries" when you launch those apps.

-- 
My real name is Fat Patricia
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 3:42:55 AM
In message <040620141925371931%michelle@michelle.org> 
  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <do_ray_me-C2133E.08364105062014@aioe.org>, dorayme
> <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

>> In article <lmngnp$i0l$4@dont-email.me>,
>>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > For your reference, records indicate that 
>> > Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> > 
>> > > UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many people
>> > > on USENET did.
>> > 
>> > To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Mac’s past, and
>> > there are a ton of things Carbon didn’t do that Cocoa developers get for
>> > free.  That’s a big part of why starting from “scratch” is going to be
>> > better in the long run.
>> 
>> Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
>> extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?

> They appeared just fine in Thoth.

And slrn. Well, until dory quoted them and mucked them up.

-- 
When this kiss is over it will start again
But not be any different could be exactly the same
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
Could be so exciting, could be this much fun
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 3:47:21 AM
In message <1lmqa29.k4rshchnvytzN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
  Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

>> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
>> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
>> 
>> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
>> 
>> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
>> excessively long subjects.  And references.
>> 
>> Billy Y..

> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.

Complete and utter bullshit.

-- 
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 3:50:50 AM
In message <bv8umnF6emdU12@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-06-04, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> Earlier reply sent without comment.  Sorry!
>>
>> For your reference, records indicate that 
>> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>>
>>> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> > Usenet is an "also ran" for that email client (sort of like MacSOUP).
>>> 
>>> Beg your pardon - MacSOUP's simple plain text only email client - while
>>> outstanding for plain text mailing lists and other emails (so good in
>>> fact, I used it as my primary email client for over a decade, till HTML
>>> and attachment support became a must), is clearly the tacked on addition
>>> to MacSOUP's Usenet abilities. Not the other way around.
>>
>> And yet the first thing MacSOUP prompts me for as a new user is a POP email
>> account.  Which I don’t have.  Which is why I didn’t bother checking it out
>> further.

> That was actually a deterrent for me as well.

Same here. The last POP account I had was in 2002.

-- 
"I program Windows - of course it isn't safe." - Meski
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 3:53:16 AM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <1lmqa29.k4rshchnvytzN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> 
> >> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
> >> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
> >> 
> >> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
> >> 
> >> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
> >> excessively long subjects.  And references.
> >> 
> >> Billy Y..
> 
> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> 
> Complete and utter bullshit.

I like how you managed to utter than in 100% ASCII characters. Thank you
for helping make my point for me - it's always so much easier when they
do that :-)

TTFN,
 Jamie Kahn Genet

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 6:40:34 AM
Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> Anyone know why it wants a POP or indeed any email account.

You don�t have to set up an email account to use macSOUP.
You can skip that step and use it without one.
0
befr
6/5/2014 7:07:34 AM
In article <do_ray_me-1B81D1.10042104062014@aioe.org>,
 dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> In article <1lmoqxo.1lc7e2zt8dj0rN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
>  jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > ... Thunderbird is just about the worst
> > experience I've had reading Usenet on a desktop client app, that I have
> > had since trying MS Outlook Express on the Mac back in 1999 - and that
> > was pretty damn sub-par! :-D
> 
> Outlook Express was terrific on the Mac, I had no trouble at all on my 
> SE30 et al.

I didn't say any of that... :-p
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 9:01:06 AM
In article <do_ray_me-F3BBE7.08432705062014@aioe.org>,
 dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
>  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> 
> > > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> > 
> > Hummmph. Something I never do.
> 
> Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I 
> usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I 
> accede and MT-NW has the facility.

Yeah! That was common in the nineties before the spam took over the 
inboxes of published mail accounts...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 9:14:36 AM
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> In article <do_ray_me-F3BBE7.08432705062014@aioe.org>,
>  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
> >  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> > > 
> > > Hummmph. Something I never do.
> > 
> > Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I
> > usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I 
> > accede and MT-NW has the facility.
> 
> Yeah! That was common in the nineties before the spam took over the 
> inboxes of published mail accounts...

My current email address has been available to anyone able to use a
search tool for over a decade, and is unobfuscated in every message I
send. I get maybe one false negative in my inbox a month, and one false
positive in my spam folder a week (almost always legit yet spammy
looking marketing emails), of late. The success of my spam filtering has
fluctuated over the years, but it's never required more than a few
actions in any given week, to deal with the consequences.

Several years back I used POPfile plus Google's spam filtering
server-side with great success. I now (that I require IMAP) rely on
Google's spam filtering alone, and find I don't really miss POPfile
which had very little spam to deal with after Google was done, excepting
POPfile's usefulness in categorising non-spam (e.g. teaching it what
personal and work email was).

The point being I wonder at anyone who fears spam nowadays. It's such a
minor hassle with a little care taken. Either local apps like POPfile
and SpamSeive, or server side like Google's excellent filtering, will
take care of nearly all spam, no worries.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 9:56:41 AM
In article <1lmsf39.1yqqdi715b3a58N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > In article <do_ray_me-F3BBE7.08432705062014@aioe.org>,
> >  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
> > >  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> > > > 
> > > > Hummmph. Something I never do.
> > > 
> > > Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I
> > > usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I 
> > > accede and MT-NW has the facility.
> > 
> > Yeah! That was common in the nineties before the spam took over the 
> > inboxes of published mail accounts...
> 
> My current email address has been available to anyone able to use a
> search tool for over a decade, and is unobfuscated in every message I
> send. I get maybe one false negative in my inbox a month, and one false
> positive in my spam folder a week (almost always legit yet spammy
> looking marketing emails), of late. The success of my spam filtering has
> fluctuated over the years, but it's never required more than a few
> actions in any given week, to deal with the consequences.
> 
> Several years back I used POPfile plus Google's spam filtering
> server-side with great success. I now (that I require IMAP) rely on
> Google's spam filtering alone, and find I don't really miss POPfile
> which had very little spam to deal with after Google was done, excepting
> POPfile's usefulness in categorising non-spam (e.g. teaching it what
> personal and work email was).
> 
> The point being I wonder at anyone who fears spam nowadays. It's such a
> minor hassle with a little care taken. Either local apps like POPfile
> and SpamSeive, or server side like Google's excellent filtering, will
> take care of nearly all spam, no worries.

No fear... It's just an avoidable nuisance. No need to download more 
crap than necessary. My filters works fine BTW...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 10:15:03 AM
In article <lmiiqr$gm6$1@news.tokachu.com>,
 Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:

> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> > On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
> >
> >> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
> >> due to the
> >> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> >> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> >
> > How would it be better than Unison?
> >
> 
> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
> 
> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
> posting messages in Terminal.

sudo port -v install pan2 ;-)
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 10:47:44 AM
In article <1lmsf39.1yqqdi715b3a58N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
 jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > In article <do_ray_me-F3BBE7.08432705062014@aioe.org>,
> >  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
> > >  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> > > > 
> > > > Hummmph. Something I never do.
> > > 
> > > Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I
> > > usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I 
> > > accede and MT-NW has the facility.
> > 
> > Yeah! That was common in the nineties before the spam took over the 
> > inboxes of published mail accounts...
> 
> My current email address has been available to anyone able to use a
> search tool for over a decade,

Some posters want a reply by email to their usenet public posts for 
whatever reason. Maybe to alert them that someone has made a reply and 
saving them the trouble of looking for a public response.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/5/2014 11:05:06 AM
In article <lmiiqr$gm6$1@news.tokachu.com>,
 Salvatore <sal@yojimbo.hack.invalid> wrote:

> On 2014-06-02, gtr <xxx@yyy.zzz> wrote:
> > On 2014-06-02 14:20:17 +0000, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary said:
> >
> >> I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working on a newsreader 
> >> due to the
> >> death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks.  It was suggested that I look into
> >> doing a crowdfunding effort to move things forward, so I took that advice.
> >
> > How would it be better than Unison?
> >
> 
> I suppose it would be "better" because it would be free.
> 
> By the way: MacPorts and slrn works great if you're content with only
> posting messages in Terminal.

sudo port -v install pan2 && pan    ;-)
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 11:10:34 AM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> In article <1lmsf39.1yqqdi715b3a58N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>,
>  jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > android <here@there.was> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <do_ray_me-F3BBE7.08432705062014@aioe.org>,
> > >  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > In article <040620141908474855%timstreater@greenbee.net>,
> > > >  Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > So that you can forward posts and reply to posts via email.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Hummmph. Something I never do.
> > > > 
> > > > Sometimes a poster will request that an email be sent with a reply, I
> > > > usually don't but now and then with a usenet subscriber I like, I
> > > > accede and MT-NW has the facility.
> > > 
> > > Yeah! That was common in the nineties before the spam took over the
> > > inboxes of published mail accounts...
> > 
> > My current email address has been available to anyone able to use a
> > search tool for over a decade,
> 
> Some posters want a reply by email to their usenet public posts for 
> whatever reason. Maybe to alert them that someone has made a reply and
> saving them the trouble of looking for a public response.

Yes.
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 1:03:26 PM
On 2014-06-05, Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>
>> In message <1lmqa29.k4rshchnvytzN%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> 
>>   Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
>> > <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
>> 
>> >> In comp.sys.mac.system Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> > Do you also prefer the way Thunderbord treats Unicode text, because
>> >> > it sure seems to have fucked up the text in your reply.
>> >> 
>> >> Unicode handling is the biggest problem in newsreaders today.
>> >> 
>> >> Next is insufficient (static) buffer space, along with handling
>> >> excessively long subjects.  And references.
>> >> 
>> >> Billy Y..
>> 
>> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>> 
>> Complete and utter bullshit.
>
> I like how you managed to utter than in 100% ASCII characters. Thank you
> for helping make my point for me - it's always so much easier when they
> do that :-)
>
> TTFN,
>  Jamie Kahn Genet

: D

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/5/2014 2:13:01 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.

For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
accented characters (even in names like San Jos�).

For the rest of us who use words like r�sum�, caf�, �ngstr�m, premi�re, 
etc. it is not irrelevant.

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/5/2014 3:29:43 PM
On 2014-06-05, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>
>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>
> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
> accented characters (even in names like San José).

Disdain? Nah, I mostly just ignore them. Better things to do. : )

> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première, 
> etc. it is not irrelevant.

Meh. It's a nice-to-have for me. Nothing more.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/5/2014 3:32:31 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.

For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
accented characters (even in names like San Jos�).

For the rest of us who use words like r�sum�, caf�, �ngstr�m, premi�re, 
etc. it is not irrelevant.

Paul Magnussen

0
Paul
6/5/2014 3:36:19 PM
Bernd Fr�hlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:

> You don�t have to set up an email account to use macSOUP.
> You can skip that step and use it without one.

MacSOUP does not require that POP ever be used, but it does insist that
something be entered in the POP user name and server fields in the
Accounts section of its settings. 

0
nmassello
6/5/2014 3:46:39 PM
In article <1lmrha4.125itximwpai0N%nmassello@yahoo.com>,
 nmassello@yahoo.com (Neill Massello) wrote:

> Bernd Fr�hlich <befr@eaglesoft.de> wrote:
> 
> > You don�t have to set up an email account to use macSOUP.
> > You can skip that step and use it without one.
> 
> MacSOUP does not require that POP ever be used, but it does insist that
> something be entered in the POP user name and server fields in the
> Accounts section of its settings. 

It accepts localhost as server and user@localhost.local as a valid mail 
address. I just checked it since I have an evaluation copy on my 
machine. It's free to try...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 3:57:08 PM
On 2014-06-05 15:36:19 +0000, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> said:

> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> 
> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
> accented characters (even in names like San José).

That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San 
José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us 
Californians.

> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première, 
> etc. it is not irrelevant.

Good for you.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/5/2014 4:00:23 PM
Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-05, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

>>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
>> accented characters (even in names like San José).

> Disdain? Nah, I mostly just ignore them. Better things to do. : )

>> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première, 
>> etc. it is not irrelevant.
> 
> Meh. It's a nice-to-have for me. Nothing more.

Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic. 
Spanish without accents can be close to unintelligible, as many words 
are distinguished only by their presence or absence.

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/5/2014 4:01:14 PM
Savageduck wrote:

>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
>> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> 
> That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San José, 
> Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us Californians.

'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, with 
the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the 
city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/5/2014 4:04:13 PM
In article <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Savageduck wrote:
> 
> >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
> >> accented characters (even in names like San Jos�).
> > 
> > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San Jos�, 
> > Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us Californians.
> 
> 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San Jos�, with 
> the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the 
> city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'

The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San Jos�?"
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 4:23:56 PM
In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.

Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
nation's total population.
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 4:31:36 PM
In article <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
> 
> Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> nation's total population.

Not seeing a problem here but a consistency in the that the immigration 
has shifted in ethnicity over time:
http://tinyurl.com/m5pgahy
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 4:38:14 PM
In article <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
> 
> Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> nation's total population.

Not seeing a problem here but a consistency in the that the immigration 
to the US has shifted in ethnicity over time:
http://tinyurl.com/m5pgahy
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 4:40:56 PM
In article <VaydndZlF7N4EQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> 
> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
> accented characters (even in names like San José).

I imagine they also, correctly, disdain the grocer's apo'strophe.

-- 
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
0
Tim
6/5/2014 4:44:22 PM
In article <050620140923569916%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Savageduck wrote:
> > 
> > >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
> > >> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > > 
> > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San José, 
> > > Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us Californians.
> > 
> > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, with 
> > the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the 
> > city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'
> 
> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"

Yes. And if you want to eat there I can recommend Original Joe's.

-- 
Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on
a Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web,
when you had very little chance of reading a document written on another
computer, another word processor, or another network. -- Tim Berners-Lee
0
Tim
6/5/2014 4:47:03 PM
Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <VaydndZlF7N4EQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>
>> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>>
>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
>> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> 
> I imagine they also, correctly, disdain the grocer's apo'strophe.

That was simply a typo, as you will note if you revisit my post; I 
immediately deleted and reposted it, in anticipation of replies like 
yours :-)

Paul Magnussen

0
Paul
6/5/2014 4:48:17 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Anyway, I'm surprised any Mac Usenet developer wouldn't try all the
> major Mac Usenet clients to. There are only handful left, so it wouldn't
> take long :-)

I have tried them all, to some extent.  It’s not my fault that MacSOUP was
off-putting from initial launch.  If there are any good design decision that
happened after that point, I expect they’ll get mentioned at some point.  So
far, I’m not hearing anything that’s knocking my socks off.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/5/2014 5:13:31 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> 
> > Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote about Unicode:
> > 
> > > I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> > > express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it?
> > 
> > What about everyone else?
> > 
> > Billy Y..
> 
> Ask that without using the ASCII charset and I'll take notice.
> 
> In my nearly two decades in Usenet I've yet to see any Endlish language
> post that relied so heavily on the extended charset, I couldn't
> understand it just fine with a few ?'s scattered in-between the ASCII
> chars.

I’m going to take Billy’s side on this issue.  That is, it is more likely
the case that you’re only seeing ASCII because most clients only had limited
support for anything else.  On other messaging systems, use of things like
Emoji is widespread.  And, sure, you can get by with describing a key command
as shift-command-D, but wouldn’t it also be nice to be able to say ⇧⌘D?
Usenet has a lot of baggage, and it needs every kick in the pants it can get
to drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/5/2014 5:26:11 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> I didn't need to be compensated for the work (I already
> earn plenty..), but I wound up benefitting quite a bit from it, via
> collaborating with many exceptionally sharp people I probably wouldn't
> have otherwise met.

Great for you, I guess.  If I were independently wealthy or my expenses
were otherwise taken care of, I’d be just as likely to give my work away.
Hell, that’s exactly the end goal of Signal’s crowd funding campaign.  But
unless such “collaborating” happens, I have to spend time on things that
are more likely to pay the bills.  Welcome to the 2014 economy.


-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/5/2014 5:33:59 PM
In message <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
     Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Savageduck wrote:
> 
> > > For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
> > > accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > 
> > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San
> > José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us
> > Californians.
> 
> 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, with
> the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the
> city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'

Presumably to differentiate it from absence of leg wear.

Where's my  coat?

-- 
Fred
0
Fred
6/5/2014 5:33:59 PM
In article <mpro.n6pi4m00gj6tj0091@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
 Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> In message <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
>      Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> > Savageduck wrote:
> > 
> > > > For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
> > > > accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > > 
> > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San
> > > José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us
> > > Californians.
> > 
> > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, with
> > the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the
> > city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'
> 
> Presumably to differentiate it from absence of leg wear.
> 
> Where's my  coat?

Wouldn't that be Sans Jose?
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 5:37:19 PM
Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jolly Roger wrote:
> > On 2014-06-05, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
> >>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> >>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> >>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain
> >> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> 
> > Disdain? Nah, I mostly just ignore them. Better things to do. : )
> 
> >> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première,
> >> etc. it is not irrelevant.
> > 
> > Meh. It's a nice-to-have for me. Nothing more.
> 
> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic. 
> Spanish without accents can be close to unintelligible, as many words
> are distinguished only by their presence or absence.
> 
> Paul Magnussen

Likewise many peoples the world over with names and languages with
characters outside the basic ASCII character set. I'm not saying it's a
bad thing for José to be able to write his name correctly in English
language groups, but he's got by, while typically concentrating on far
more pressing issues.

As a person with a French ancestry, I'm well aware - more than most, I
expect - how to properly spell English words borrowed from French, such
as résumé. But somehow I'm managed to make myself understood, and if I
ever find myself in a non-English group of a language I can even begin
to comprehend (that pretty much only being French, thanks to now
extremely rusty high school lessons), there are, as we Western English
users used to use for ourselves - specific commonly supported encodings
for said language, enabling the correct accented characters. Plus
Unicode in partial or full support, even in old clients like MacSOUP
(partial support, but good enough IME for nearly every communication I
can ever recall, excepting certain folk who seem to intentionally use
unnecessary extended characters to give other users grief - witness
certain earlier posts in this very thread).

I'd also add that ignoring the accents in words like résumé is quite
common, even allowed spellings. Look at nearly anyone communicating
online - laziness and/or time saving abounds, with accents and time
consuming correct spelling being frequently ignored in favour of those
typed faster. Even when the encoding exists and is in use, that will
support the ignored extended characters. Yet, somehow, we manage to be
understood with more than sufficient clarity.

Again - I'm not saying full uniform Unicode support is a bad thing :-)
Just that it's wayyyy down the list of priorities for virtually everyone
who cares to stop and think about what really impedes efficient
communication via Usenet, or any other plain text medium based on aging
standards. And that has never been a lack of full support for the
extended character set.

This really all goes to show that human beings have a singular talent
for developing almost fanatical bugbears, whose importance far exceeds
reality. Put it in perspective, and you realise it's far from the most
pressing issue. But some people seem to lack the ability to put anything
they hold dear into perspective... or should I say …? :-)

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 5:44:57 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
> extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?

I don’t do anything; I just let the Mac be a Mac.  And that means this
NSTextView is doing smart quotes and other substitutions as I type.  MT-NW
could hand it just fine if it defaulted to UTF-8 encoding, or followed the
Content-Type header.  You can “fix” it for a message, as I recall, by
manually selecting said encoding from a menu.  So MT-NW is quite capable of
doing it, it just *doesn’t*, for whatever reason.

So while it does further make the point, I’m not trying to make life
difficult for people who are still using MT-NW.  If anyone knows what it
needs to properly display UTF-8 messages, let me know and I can fix it on
my end.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/5/2014 5:45:54 PM
In message <bvbo6fFm1sfU5@mid.individual.net>
     android <here@there.was> wrote:

> In article <mpro.n6pi4m00gj6tj0091@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
>  Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
> 
> > In message <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
> >      Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Savageduck wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to
> > > > > disdain accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > > > 
> > > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San
> > > > José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us
> > > > Californians.
> > > 
> > > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José,
> > > with the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city
> > > name on the city seal, official stationery, office titles and
> > > department names.'
> > 
> > Presumably to differentiate it from absence of leg wear.
> > 
> > Where's my  coat?
> 
> Wouldn't that be Sans Jose?

Drat! Left my dictionary in my coat pocket.

-- 
Fred
0
Fred
6/5/2014 5:50:07 PM
In article <ZMSdnTYPr9jTAg3OnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Tim Streater wrote:
> > In article <VaydndZlF7N4EQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_qmdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> > Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 
> >> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> >>
> >> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> >> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> >> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> >>
> >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as American's seem to disdain 
> >> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > 
> > I imagine they also, correctly, disdain the grocer's apo'strophe.
> 
> That was simply a typo, as you will note if you revisit my post; I 
> immediately deleted and reposted it, in anticipation of replies like 
> yours :-)

So you did :-)

-- 
"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to
 lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores 
 the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them
 into it in the first place."                             - Douglas Adams
0
Tim
6/5/2014 5:55:19 PM
Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
> > Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> > users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> > of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> 
> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
> accented characters (even in names like San Jos�).
> 
> For the rest of us who use words like r�sum�, caf�, �ngstr�m, premi�re,
> etc. it is not irrelevant.
> 
> Paul Magnussen

Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
accents and extended characters. In fact every single example you
provide has an accepted ASCII charset only spelling in the Oxford
Dictionary! :-D

Again in this thread, my point that full Unicode support is _not_ the
highest priority, let alone even a moderately high priority, is
reinforced by a post trying to say otherwise. Irony...

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 5:55:31 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-05, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> >
> > For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première, 
> > etc. it is not irrelevant.
> 
> Meh. It's a nice-to-have for me. Nothing more.

Yeah, but a lot of what makes a Mac so great are things that are just
“nice-to-have”.  I don’t *need* to be able to right-click on an ostentatious
word and get a definition quickly, but I sure as hell missed having it
(Cocoa-style) when I was using MT-NW.

I vote for nice-to-have.

-- 
This post is temporarily .sig-less

0
Darrin
6/5/2014 5:58:38 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> > 
> > > Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote about Unicode:
> > > 
> > > > I just personally can't think of many times I've failed to
> > > > express myself in ASCII. Maybe I'm just used to it?
> > > 
> > > What about everyone else?
> > > 
> > > Billy Y..
> > 
> > Ask that without using the ASCII charset and I'll take notice.
> > 
> > In my nearly two decades in Usenet I've yet to see any Endlish language
> > post that relied so heavily on the extended charset, I couldn't
> > understand it just fine with a few ?'s scattered in-between the ASCII
> > chars.
> 
> I'm going to take Billy's side on this issue.  That is, it is more likely
> the case that you're only seeing ASCII because most clients only had limited
> support for anything else.  On other messaging systems, use of things like
> Emoji is widespread.  And, sure, you can get by with describing a key command
> as shift-command-D, but wouldn't it also be nice to be able to say ??D?
> Usenet has a lot of baggage, and it needs every kick in the pants it can get
> to drag it kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

To reiterate: I'm not against full uniform Unicode support. I simply see
far, far more pressing concerns. Obviously it would be silly to write a
new client without decent Unicode support in 2014. But do I _really
care_ about full Unicode support, vs MacSOUP's wholly adequate partial
support? Nope, not in the least, compared to having a MacSOUP-like
client with filtering on any header or the body, a built in
spellchecker, attachment support, HTML email (but NOT Usenet) support,
secure POP email, etc, etc.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 6:04:09 PM
On 2014-06-05 16:04:13 +0000, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> said:

> Savageduck wrote:
> 
>>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain 
>>> accented characters (even in names like San José).
>> 
>> That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San 
>> José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us 
>> Californians.
> 
> 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, 
> with the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name 
> on the city seal, official stationery, office titles and department 
> names.'

Somehow their official web site, the street sign painters, the city 
emergency departments such as the SJPD never got the memo.
< http://www.sanjoseca.gov >
< http://www.sjpd.org >
< http://www.sanjoseinside.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/San_Jose_Police.jpg >

....but SJSU decided to go with San José.
< http://www.sjsu.edu >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/5/2014 6:04:25 PM
In article <bvbksoFm1sfU4@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was>
wrote:

> In article <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org>,
>  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> > Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
> > 
> > Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> > could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> > nation's total population.
> 
> Not seeing a problem here but a consistency in the that the immigration 
> to the US has shifted in ethnicity over time:
> http://tinyurl.com/m5pgahy

Although whites will no longer be the majority, they will still be the
plurality; there will be no majority.
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 6:06:06 PM
In article <lmqach$tae$4@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
> > extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?
> 
> I don’t do anything; I just let the Mac be a Mac.  And that means this
> NSTextView is doing smart quotes and other substitutions as I type.  MT-NW
> could hand it just fine if it defaulted to UTF-8 encoding, or followed the
> Content-Type header.  You can “fix” it for a message, as I recall, by
> manually selecting said encoding from a menu.  So MT-NW is quite capable of
> doing it, it just *doesn’t*, for whatever reason.
> 
> So while it does further make the point, I’m not trying to make life
> difficult for people who are still using MT-NW.  If anyone knows what it
> needs to properly display UTF-8 messages, let me know and I can fix it on
> my end.

I have to thank you Sir!

In MT-NewsWatcher: Preferences> Languages

Set reading news to Western (mac OS Roman)
Decode unlabeled articles as Unicode UTF-8
UNCHECK the Try to detect encodings box

Set send... to Unicode UTF-8

That said: YOUR reader is the only one that I've encountered that gives 
this kind of jibberish.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 6:06:24 PM
On 2014-06-05 16:23:56 +0000, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:

> In article <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> Savageduck wrote:
>> 
>>>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
>>>> accented characters (even in names like San José).
>>> 
>>> That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San José,
>>> Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us Californians.
>> 
>> 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, with
>> the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city name on the
>> city seal, official stationery, office titles and department names.'
> 
> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"

Yup!
Hitting 101N and driving about 1½ hours usually gets me there.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/5/2014 6:06:44 PM
In article <050620141747034691%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <050620140923569916%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
> <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > In article <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> > Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > Savageduck wrote:
> > > 
> > > >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to
> > > >> disdain accented characters (even in names like San Jos�).
> > > > 
> > > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and
> > > > San Jos�, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us
> > > > Californians.
> > > 
> > > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San
> > > Jos�, with the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of
> > > the city name on the city seal, official stationery, office
> > > titles and department names.'
> > 
> > The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San Jos�?"
> 
> Yes. And if you want to eat there I can recommend Original Joe's.

Been there, done that.  And if you ever visit the Phoenix area, I
strongly recommend Joe's Real BBQ in Gilbert.
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 6:09:05 PM
In article <bvbpt0Fm1sfU6@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was> 
wrote:

> In article <lmqach$tae$4@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
> > > extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?
> > 
> > I don’t do anything; I just let the Mac be a Mac.  And that means this
> > NSTextView is doing smart quotes and other substitutions as I type.  MT-NW
> > could hand it just fine if it defaulted to UTF-8 encoding, or followed the
> > Content-Type header.  You can “fix” it for a message, as I recall, by
> > manually selecting said encoding from a menu.  So MT-NW is quite capable of
> > doing it, it just *doesn’t*, for whatever reason.
> > 
> > So while it does further make the point, I’m not trying to make life
> > difficult for people who are still using MT-NW.  If anyone knows what it
> > needs to properly display UTF-8 messages, let me know and I can fix it on
> > my end.
> 
> I have to thank you Sir!
> 
> In MT-NewsWatcher: Preferences> Languages
> 
> Set reading news to Western (mac OS Roman)
> Decode unlabeled articles as Unicode UTF-8
> UNCHECK the Try to detect encodings box
> 
> Set send... to Unicode UTF-8
> 
> That said: YOUR reader is the only one that I've encountered that gives 
> this kind of jibberish.

My mistake it did not fix it. The above stands though...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 6:09:07 PM
Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic. 

If not, some day soon.  Heh.

> Spanish without accents can be close to unintelligible, as many words 
> are distinguished only by their presence or absence.

Not to mention all the people throughout the world who deserve,
if nothing else, to have their names rendered correctly.

Billy "ASCII is so last century" Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/5/2014 6:09:09 PM
In article <mpro.n6pivj00ny8cl0091@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
 Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> In message <bvbo6fFm1sfU5@mid.individual.net>
>      android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > In article <mpro.n6pi4m00gj6tj0091@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
> >  Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
> > 
> > > In message <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>
> > >      Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Savageduck wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to
> > > > > > disdain accented characters (even in names like San José).
> > > > > 
> > > > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and San
> > > > > José, Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us
> > > > > Californians.
> > > > 
> > > > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José,
> > > > with the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city
> > > > name on the city seal, official stationery, office titles and
> > > > department names.'
> > > 
> > > Presumably to differentiate it from absence of leg wear.
> > > 
> > > Where's my  coat?
> > 
> > Wouldn't that be Sans Jose?
> 
> Drat! Left my dictionary in my coat pocket.

Peace man! ;-)
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 6:11:21 PM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > Anyway, I'm surprised any Mac Usenet developer wouldn't try all the
> > major Mac Usenet clients to. There are only handful left, so it wouldn't
> > take long :-)
> 
> I have tried them all, to some extent.  It's not my fault that MacSOUP was
> off-putting from initial launch.  If there are any good design decision that
> happened after that point, I expect they'll get mentioned at some point.  So
> far, I'm not hearing anything that's knocking my socks off.

Fantastic graphical thread tree, comprehensive views
(unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked), tagging to quickly and/or
automatically mark posts and entire threads or sub-threads for reading
one after the other, powerful regular expression killfile, true
references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads, clean easy
to use UI that stays out of the way, great KB commands, great offline
design... I could go on, but those would be the highlights (MacSOUP
users: am I missing anything?). Few other clients ever came close to
MacSOUP's excellent, yet aging and somewhat quirky non-standard design,
on _any_ platform. Hogwasher would be one, but it wasn't even adequately
supported by it's developer back last century :-\

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/5/2014 6:14:18 PM
On 2014-06-05 16:47:03 +0000, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> said:

> In article <050620140923569916%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
> <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
>> In article <studnaRloYJnCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
>> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> > Savageduck wrote:
>> > > >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to 
>> disdain > >> accented characters (even in names like San José).
>> > > > > That is how we differentiate between San Jose, California, and 
>> San José, > > Costa Rica. No pretentious accented characters for us 
>> Californians.
>> > > 'On April 3, 1979, the San Jose [CA] City Council adopted San José, 
>> with > the diacritical mark on the "e", as the spelling of the city 
>> name on the > city seal, official stationery, office titles and 
>> department names.'
>> 
>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
> 
> Yes. And if you want to eat there I can recommend Original Joe's.

Hell! I remember eating at the "Lion & Compass" back in 1983 when Nolan 
Bushnell first opened it in Sunnyvale, and it looked like an up market 
Chuck E. Cheese complete with game consoles.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/5/2014 6:16:24 PM
In article <bvbo6fFm1sfU5@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was>
wrote:

> Wouldn't that be Sans Jose?

Sin Jose
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 6:17:53 PM
In article <2014060511162425791-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San Jos�?"
> > 
> > Yes. And if you want to eat there I can recommend Original Joe's.
> 
> Hell! I remember eating at the "Lion & Compass" back in 1983 when Nolan 
> Bushnell first opened it in Sunnyvale, and it looked like an up market 
> Chuck E. Cheese complete with game consoles.

Go a bit farther north to North Beach in San Francisco and eat at The
Stinking Rose.
0
Michelle
6/5/2014 6:22:29 PM
In article <050620141122296700%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> Go a bit farther north to North Beach in San Francisco and eat at The
> Stinking Rose.

that place is nothing more than a tourist trap. the food is awful.
0
nospam
6/5/2014 6:30:23 PM
In article <050620141117530127%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <bvbo6fFm1sfU5@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was>
> wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't that be Sans Jose?
> 
> Sin Jose

Oki... Ehhh... Nevermind!
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/5/2014 6:31:13 PM
In message <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org> 
  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.

> Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> nation's total population.

More than 50% of the births are hispanic.


-- 
All Hell hadn't been let loose. It was merely Detritus. But from a few
feet away you couldn't tell the difference.
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 6:37:58 PM
In message <050620141122296700%michelle@michelle.org> 
  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <2014060511162425791-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>> >> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
>> > 
>> > Yes. And if you want to eat there I can recommend Original Joe's.
>> 
>> Hell! I remember eating at the "Lion & Compass" back in 1983 when Nolan 
>> Bushnell first opened it in Sunnyvale, and it looked like an up market 
>> Chuck E. Cheese complete with game consoles.

> Go a bit farther north to North Beach in San Francisco and eat at The
> Stinking Rose.

That place is great. I love the appetizer of a cast-iron skillet of
sautéd garlic.

-- 
Ten Minutes ago you beat a man senseless. He was senseless before I
beat him.
0
Lewis
6/5/2014 6:43:44 PM
On 2014-06-05, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-05, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>> >
>> > For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première, 
>> > etc. it is not irrelevant.
>> 
>> Meh. It's a nice-to-have for me. Nothing more.
>
> Yeah, but a lot of what makes a Mac so great are things that are just
> “nice-to-have”.  I don’t *need* to be able to right-click on an ostentatious
> word and get a definition quickly, but I sure as hell missed having it
> (Cocoa-style) when I was using MT-NW.
>
> I vote for nice-to-have.

Indeed. And if I were starting out with a Usenet client, I would of
course incorporate Unicode support (which, as you mentioned, isn't all
that hard considering you get it for free with Cocoa).

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/5/2014 7:21:12 PM
On 2014.06.04, 18:36 , dorayme wrote:
> In article <lmngnp$i0l$4@dont-email.me>,
>   Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>
>>> UTF was certainly more than a gleam, MTNW just ignored it as many peo=
ple
>>> on USENET did.
>>
>> To be fair to MT-NW, it was carried forward from *deep* in Mac=E2=80=99=
s past, and
>> there are a ton of things Carbon didn=E2=80=99t do that Cocoa develope=
rs get for
>> free.  That=E2=80=99s a big part of why starting from =E2=80=9Cscratch=
=E2=80=9D is going to be
>> better in the long run.
>
> Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an
> extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?

Yes - it's part of his smear campaign.  Similar to the tagline at the=20
indiegogo site:

             "Bring Usenet Back to the Mac" as if it were lost.

It isn't.  Hasn't been.

Create a new usenet client?  That's great.

Raise non-issues or irritants and insinuate that there is no solution=20
for Macs - that's just crap.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.




0
Alan
6/5/2014 9:38:00 PM
On 2014.06.05, 11:36 , Paul Magnussen wrote:
> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>
>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99=
%
>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>
> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
> accented characters (even in names like San Jos=C3=A9).
>
> For the rest of us who use words like r=C3=A9sum=C3=A9, caf=C3=A9, =C3=85=
ngstr=C3=B6m, premi=C3=A8re,
> etc. it is not irrelevant.

Even for this poor thunderbird user, those accents come through perfectly=
=2E

Not sure about:		=E2=89=A0 =C2=B1  which show on the screen when typing..=
=2E



--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/5/2014 10:25:31 PM
On 2014.06.05, 18:25 , Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2014.06.05, 11:36 , Paul Magnussen wrote:
>> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>
>>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.9=
9%
>>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>>
>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
>> accented characters (even in names like San Jos=C3=A9).
>>
>> For the rest of us who use words like r=C3=A9sum=C3=A9, caf=C3=A9, =C3=
=85ngstr=C3=B6m, premi=C3=A8re,
>> etc. it is not irrelevant.
>
> Even for this poor thunderbird user, those accents come through perfect=
ly.
>
> Not sure about:        =E2=89=A0 =C2=B1  which show on the screen when =
typing...

                          Yep.  They're okay reading too.

Don't need no stinkin' Unicode for Usenet.


--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/5/2014 10:27:08 PM
On 2014.06.05, 13:55 , Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>
>>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.9=
9%
>>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>>
>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
>> accented characters (even in names like San Jos=E9).
>>
>> For the rest of us who use words like r=E9sum=E9, caf=E9, =C5ngstr=F6m=
, premi=E8re,
>> etc. it is not irrelevant.
>>
>> Paul Magnussen
>
> Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
> accents and extended characters. In fact every single example you
> provide has an accepted ASCII charset only spelling in the Oxford
> Dictionary! :-D
>
> Again in this thread, my point that full Unicode support is _not_ the
> highest priority, let alone even a moderately high priority, is
> reinforced by a post trying to say otherwise. Irony...

                                                 ;-)

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/5/2014 10:28:13 PM
In article <lmqach$tae$4@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > Do you liberally use characters that appear badly on MT_NW to make an 
> > extra point about the need for a new usenet reader for Mac?
> 
> I don’t do anything; I just let the Mac be a Mac.  And that means this
> NSTextView is doing smart quotes and other substitutions as I type. 


I know you don't do anything special. I wish you would though (like 
post in plain). I remind you that you said in your opening post: "I�ve 
mentioned here before that I�ve been working on a newsreader due to 
the death of MT-NewsWatcher on Mavericks." Since this usenet reader is 
one many of us use, and since it is broken in regard to solid support 
for character encoding, it would be nice if everyone out there had 
some respect like when you see a person with injuries trying to cross 
the road, you help them gently and go slow.


> could hand it just fine if it defaulted to UTF-8 encoding, or followed the
> Content-Type header.  You can “fix” it for a message, as I recall, by
> manually selecting said encoding from a menu.  So MT-NW is quite capable of
> doing it, it just *doesn’t*, for whatever reason.
> 
> So while it does further make the point, I’m not trying to make life
> difficult for people who are still using MT-NW.  If anyone knows what it
> needs to properly display UTF-8 messages, let me know and I can fix it on
> my end.

Is it not simple to *not* use smart quotes etc? What are we here, a 
fancy wanky literary society? No one needs directions to go to San 
Jose 1 or San Jose 2. 

Don't get upset by my remarks, I just think simple is much better in 
communication across the internet given the different clients, it is 
*not* printed communication.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/5/2014 10:28:28 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

> Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
> accents and extended characters.

Certainly.  But you and I have been able to post here in, and send each 
other e-mails in, straight ASCII since � what? the early '90s?  Isn't it 
time to move on?

We can communicate by grunting and gesticulating, too.  Isn't a little 
more refinement a good thing?  After all, we are Mac users, and we've 
been able to touch-type all this stuff from day 1 :-)

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/5/2014 10:58:03 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> To reiterate: I'm not against full uniform Unicode support. I simply see
> far, far more pressing concerns.  [...]

> a built in spellchecker

What don't you like about the one Apple (I believe..) provide?

> attachment support

Use a link to point to your attachment.

> HTML email (but NOT Usenet) support

Invoke your prefered email user agent.

> secure POP email

Ditto.

> etc, etc.

That's it..?

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/5/2014 11:13:02 PM
Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:

> Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
> accents and extended characters.

But, my dear chap, consider the tennis-player Albert Monta��s!  Every 
day the poor bugger has to listen to the commentators calling him 
monTARnes � and can you blame them, when his name is spelt wrongly on 
the scoreboard?

(Well yes, because it's their job to get these things right, but that's 
another story.)

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/5/2014 11:49:01 PM
In article <050620141430231190%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
<nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <050620141122296700%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
> <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > Go a bit farther north to North Beach in San Francisco and eat at The
> > Stinking Rose.
> 
> that place is nothing more than a tourist trap. the food is awful.

In other words, you don't like garlic.
0
Michelle
6/6/2014 1:45:01 AM
In article <050620141845019838%michelle@michelle.org>, Michelle Steiner
<michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> > > Go a bit farther north to North Beach in San Francisco and eat at The
> > > Stinking Rose.
> > 
> > that place is nothing more than a tourist trap. the food is awful.
> 
> In other words, you don't like garlic.

wrong. i used to go to the gilroy garlic festival and gorge,
particularly on the garlic ice cream. 

the stinking rose is simply not a very good restaurant. it's a tourist
trap.
0
nospam
6/6/2014 1:57:15 AM
In article <slrnlp1e86.tg1.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org> 
>   Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> > In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> > Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> >> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
> 
> > Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> > could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> > nation's total population.
> 
> More than 50% of the births are hispanic.

17% of the population are causing more than 50% of births????

<http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/births-by-raceethnicity/>

Year 2010

Non-Hispanic white:  2,162,406
Non-Hispanic black:    589,808
Non-Hispanic Amerind:   39,928
Non hispanic Asian*:   234,472
Hispanic:              945,180

*Including Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander

The number of births to women of all ethnic minorities, but not that of
just Hispanics, is greater than that of white women.  So what's the big
deal about that?
0
Michelle
6/6/2014 1:59:50 AM
In message <zOmdnRvcH-Ihcw3OnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.05, 18:25 , Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2014.06.05, 11:36 , Paul Magnussen wrote:
>>> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>>>
>>>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
>>>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
>>>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
>>>
>>> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
>>> accented characters (even in names like San José).
>>>
>>> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première,
>>> etc. it is not irrelevant.
>>
>> Even for this poor thunderbird user, those accents come through perfectly.
>>
>> Not sure about:        ≠ ±  which show on the screen when typing...

>                           Yep.  They're okay reading too.

> Don't need no stinkin' Unicode for Usenet.

Then why are you posting in UTF-8, Hmmm?

Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2014 18:27:08 -0400
From: Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.apps,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Upcoming New Newsreader for the Mac: Signal
References: <lmi170$v2m$1@dont-email.me>
<i_CdndYZoviRfRHOnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
<bv49nnF7ameU1@mid.individ
In-Reply-To: <zOmdnRjcH-LGcw3OnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
Message-ID: <zOmdnRvcH-Ihcw3OnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@giganews.com>
Lines: 32
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

hoist(self,petard);

-- 
You know a thorn can main / But a lover does the same / A gem will
reflect light / And a Fool will marvel at the sight / A fool such as me,
/Who sees not the gold, but the beauty of the shine
0
Lewis
6/6/2014 2:13:02 AM
In message <do_ray_me-1786A5.08282806062014@aioe.org> 
  dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> Don't get upset by my remarks, I just think simple is much better in 
> communication across the internet given the different clients, it is 
> *not* printed communication.

It’s no one’s fault but yours that your software does not support the
USENET standard of UTF-8.

-- 
'But you ain't part of it, are you?' said Granny conversationally. 'You
try, but you always find yourself watchin' yourself watchin' people, eh?
Never quite believin' anything? Thinkin' the wrong thoughts?'
0
Lewis
6/6/2014 2:14:32 AM
In message <050620141859503183%michelle@michelle.org> 
  Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <slrnlp1e86.tg1.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

>> In message <050620140931367504%michelle@michelle.org> 
>>   Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>> > In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
>> > Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
>> 
>> > Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
>> > could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
>> > nation's total population.
>> 
>> More than 50% of the births are hispanic.

> 17% of the population are causing more than 50% of births????

> <http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/births-by-raceethnicity/>

> Year 2010

> Non-Hispanic white:  2,162,406
> Non-Hispanic black:    589,808
> Non-Hispanic Amerind:   39,928
> Non hispanic Asian*:   234,472
> Hispanic:              945,180

> *Including Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander

> The number of births to women of all ethnic minorities, but not that of
> just Hispanics, is greater than that of white women.  So what's the big
> deal about that?

Hmm.. Either I miss-read a headline or the headline was extremely
misleading.

-- 
And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew
them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does.
0
Lewis
6/6/2014 2:16:42 AM
<billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > To reiterate: I'm not against full uniform Unicode support. I simply see
> > far, far more pressing concerns.  [...]
> 
> > a built in spellchecker
> 
> What don't you like about the one Apple (I believe..) provide?

That is only available in Cocoa apps, and MacSOUP isn't one.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
6/6/2014 2:26:35 AM
Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:

> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> > 
> > > Anyway, I'm surprised any Mac Usenet developer wouldn't try all the
> > > major Mac Usenet clients to. There are only handful left, so it wouldn't
> > > take long :-)
> > 
> > I have tried them all, to some extent.  It's not my fault that MacSOUP was
> > off-putting from initial launch.  If there are any good design decision that
> > happened after that point, I expect they'll get mentioned at some point.  So
> > far, I'm not hearing anything that's knocking my socks off.
> 
> Fantastic graphical thread tree, comprehensive views
> (unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked), tagging to quickly and/or
> automatically mark posts and entire threads or sub-threads for reading
> one after the other, powerful regular expression killfile, true
> references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads, clean easy
> to use UI that stays out of the way, great KB commands, great offline
> design... I could go on, but those would be the highlights (MacSOUP
> users: am I missing anything?).

Those are my main favourites as well.

One example: the reference-based email support is great for mailing
lists which have discussions between several people. Even though I don't
use MacSOUP as an email client, I occasionally import mailing list
archives just so I can get a threaded view of prior conversations.

I use Thunderbird for email on my PC and it at least groups the
discussion threads together, but I miss the overall structured view
offered by MacSOUP.

On the topic of the offline mode of operation, this has many benefits
for the way I use Usenet:

1. If I'm going to be without convenient Internet for a while, but have
some spare time, I can prefetch all the groups I read, then read and
reply while not connected. Yes, this does still happen from time to time
(e.g. every day while I'm at work, I have no Internet access unless I
use a personal hotspot via my iPhone or iPad). It was way more important
back when I was using dialup.

2. Sending of queued posts is an explicit choice on my part. That gives
me an opportunity to rethink posts before they get sent (or I can choose
to discard a post if it isn't worth it).

3. I have full control over how much history is retained in each group,
rather than relying on the whims of my news server.

4. If I want to retain certain messages in the news database beyond the
configured expiry period, I can mark them as locked and they will never
be deleted automatically.

I can probably think of more reasons, but I've been using offline mode
for Usenet since I got my first Mac and MacSOUP in 1996, so it has
become ingrained. Prior to that I was using rn, trn or similar via a
dial-up terminal connection to my ISP from my Apple IIgs.

-- 
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
0
dempson
6/6/2014 2:26:37 AM
On 14-06-05 21:59, Michelle Steiner wrote:

> 17% of the population are causing more than 50% of births????

> Non-Hispanic white:  2,162,406
> Hispanic:              945,180

You could spin statistics to say that hispanic birth reach 43% of the
white births despite only having 17% of total population.

(but this would be meaningless unless you also know what percentage
whites represent of total population).

Howver, what happens when the father is white and mother is hispanic ?
is the birth considered hispanic ? and the other way around (hispanic
dad, white mother) ?

And what if one of the two is half hispanic, does that make the kid 3/4
hispanic and 1/4 white, do you then count that one birth as .75 towards
hispanic and .25 towards white ? :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

what about mexicans who are more white than hispanic ? Are they counted
as hispanic or white ?

And what Obama who was born both in Kenya (according to Republicans)
and Hawaii ? Is he considered african american (since born in Kenya) or
Pacific Islander (born in Hawaii with a built-in suntan ? )

Since he has produced a birth certificate showing he was born in Hawaii,
can he really be called "african american" since he wasn't born in
africa ? :-)



0
JF
6/6/2014 2:56:45 AM
In message <53912dee$0$51552$c3e8da3$eb767761@news.astraweb.com> 
  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> what about mexicans who are more white than hispanic ? Are they counted
> as hispanic or white ?

non-Hispanic white means just what is say. A white Hispanic is counted
as Hispanic.

-- 
I laugh in the face of danger. Then I hide until it goes away.
0
Lewis
6/6/2014 3:20:50 AM
In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
> 
> > The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
> 
> Yup!
> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.

5.5 hours? You drive slow.

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
D
6/6/2014 3:46:01 AM
On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:56:45 -0400, JF Mezei 
<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> Howver, what happens when the father is white and mother is hispanic ? 
> is the birth considered hispanic ? and the other way around (hispanic 
> dad, white mother) ?

Generally speaking, racial (or is that racist?) identification tends to 
hew to the "taint in the blood" notion.  If there is a drop of anything 
other than Euro blood in your veins, you're assigned to whatever group 
that drop comes from.  So if genetically you are- for example- 12.5% 
African and 87.5% European, the tendency is to consider you black.  
Genetically the differences between races are so very tiny and those 
differences weigh so very heavily on the opportunities individuals are 
granted.

The first "black President" is of as much European ancestry as African 
ancestry, yet he is not considered white.  He is identified as black 
(and with that is seen as a threat by an awful lot of white folks who 
have been arming themselves like crazy since he was elected to his first 
term.  Obama has been very good marketing for the gun industry; there is 
a very clear trend between white racism and gun ownership in America.  A 
black man who owns a gun is assumed a criminal while a white man who 
owns a gun is assumed to be protecting his family.  I wonder what would 
have happened if blacks carrying guns had gone shopping at Target).
0
Tim
6/6/2014 4:53:23 AM
In article <zOmdnRvcH-Ihcw3OnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2014.06.05, 18:25 , Alan Browne wrote:
> > On 2014.06.05, 11:36 , Paul Magnussen wrote:
> >> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> >>
> >>> Unicode support is mostly irrelevant for the vast majority of Usenet
> >>> users who spend their time in English language only groups where 99.99%
> >>> of posts are easily expressed in only ASCII.
> >>
> >> For American Usenet users, possibly, as Americans seem to disdain
> >> accented characters (even in names like San José).
> >>
> >> For the rest of us who use words like résumé, café, Ångström, première,
> >> etc. it is not irrelevant.
> >
> > Even for this poor thunderbird user, those accents come through perfectly.
> >
> > Not sure about:        ≠ ±  which show on the screen when typing...
> 
>                           Yep.  They're okay reading too.
> 
> Don't need no stinkin' Unicode for Usenet.

No, you don't... But most people do provided that they wont to frequent 
non english language newsgroups. One should not forget that there is 
NNTP servers of the Usenet for special purposes. Most of don't se them 
but they are there and fill a need.
To make a new NNTP client unaware of Uncode is lazy, unnecessary and 
rude. 
Of course, Goog et al IS trying to burn the global village down to the 
ground and I'm a part of the firebrigade...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/6/2014 5:29:47 AM
On 2014-06-06 03:46:01 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:

> In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
>> 
>>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
>> 
>> Yup!
>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
> 
> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.

Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?

That was *one & one half" ("±1.5")hours, as in ±90 (ninety) minutes.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/6/2014 6:35:12 AM
In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-06 03:46:01 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:
> 
> > In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
> >> 
> >>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
> >> 
> >> Yup!
> >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
> > 
> > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> 
> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> 
> That was *one & one half" ("±1.5")hours, as in ±90 (ninety) minutes.

I say that Manno is right here. You with your sloppy typing just missed 
a couple of spaces:  

11 / 2 = 5.5    ;-P
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/6/2014 7:03:33 AM
On 2014-06-06 07:03:33 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:

> In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-06-06 03:46:01 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
>>>> 
>>>>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
>>>> 
>>>> Yup!
>>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
>>> 
>>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
>> 
>> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
>> 
>> That was *one & one half" ("±1.5")hours, as in ±90 (ninety) minutes.
> 
> I say that Manno is right here. You with your sloppy typing just missed
> a couple of spaces:
> 
> 11 / 2 = 5.5    ;-P

I have got something out of this. It seems that if I type 11/2 without 
a space I don't get 1 ½.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/6/2014 11:55:34 AM
In article <2014060604553486795-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-06 07:03:33 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:
> 
> > In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2014-06-06 03:46:01 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yup!
> >>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
> >>> 
> >>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> >> 
> >> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> >> 
> >> That was *one & one half" ("±1.5")hours, as in ±90 (ninety) minutes.
> > 
> > I say that Manno is right here. You with your sloppy typing just missed
> > a couple of spaces:
> > 
> > 11 / 2 = 5.5    ;-P
> 
> I have got something out of this. It seems that if I type 11/2 without 
> a space I don't get 1 ?.

If you want 1.5 you either need to type 1.5 or perhaps 1 1/2 or even
one point five or one-and-a-half.

Simples.

-- 
"I am enclosing two tickets to the first night of my new play; bring a
friend.... if you have one." - GB Shaw to Churchill "Cannot possibly
attend first night, will attend second...  if there is one." - Winston
Churchill, in response.
0
Tim
6/6/2014 12:07:19 PM
In article <2014060604553486795-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-06 07:03:33 +0000, android <here@there.was> said:
> 
> > In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2014-06-06 03:46:01 +0000, "D.F. Manno" <dfmanno@mail.com> said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <2014060511064422705-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> The important question, though is, "Do you know the way to San José?"
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yup!
> >>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
> >>> 
> >>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> >> 
> >> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> >> 
> >> That was *one & one half" ("±1.5")hours, as in ±90 (ninety) minutes.
> > 
> > I say that Manno is right here. You with your sloppy typing just missed
> > a couple of spaces:
> > 
> > 11 / 2 = 5.5    ;-P
> 
> I have got something out of this. It seems that if I type 11/2 without 
> a space I don't get 1 1⁄2.

And doesn't that feel goood?
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/6/2014 1:00:34 PM
<billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> 
> > To reiterate: I'm not against full uniform Unicode support. I simply see
> > far, far more pressing concerns.  [...]
> 
> > a built in spellchecker
> 
> What don't you like about the one Apple (I believe..) provide?

Nothing, it works fine in apps that support it, which isn't MacSOUP.

> > attachment support
> 
> Use a link to point to your attachment.

Sure, but that's not the point when faced with a message that already
has a file attached. Sure I can - and used to - work around it, by
saving the message as a text file, and then opening it with a decoder
app. But nowadays I'm not quite dedicated enough to do so. Plus with
MacSOUP's lack of HTML support, I ignore it's email client for anything
but Usenet posts I forward or reply to via email, and I also ignore
Usenet binary groups nowadays.

> > HTML email (but NOT Usenet) support
> 
> Invoke your prefered email user agent.

I prefer MacSOUP which is a dream to read threaded plain text only
conversations with, but it lacks attachment and HTML support. So I use
Apple Mail and Gmail web and mobile clients. What is your point?

> > secure POP email
> 
> Ditto.

Ditto as to wondering what your point is?

> > etc, etc.
> 
> That's it..?
> 
> Billy Y..

What else were you expecting?
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/6/2014 2:54:43 PM
Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
> 
> > Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
> > accents and extended characters.
> 
> Certainly.  But you and I have been able to post here in, and send each
> other e-mails in, straight ASCII since — what? the early '90s?  Isn't it
> time to move on?
> 
> We can communicate by grunting and gesticulating, too.  Isn't a little
> more refinement a good thing?  After all, we are Mac users, and we've
> been able to touch-type all this stuff from day 1 :-)
> 
> Paul Magnussen

Once again I say that it would be silly to avoid Unicode in a brand new
client. I simply fail to see how full Unicode support can be more
important than almost any key feature of MT-NW or MacSOUP. The only
posts in this thread that have unreadable content for me with MacSOUP's
partial support, are those written to deliberately showcase Unicode
support. That tells me something :-)

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/6/2014 2:54:44 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <do_ray_me-1786A5.08282806062014@aioe.org> 
>   dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > Don't get upset by my remarks, I just think simple is much better in
> > communication across the internet given the different clients, it is
> > *not* printed communication.
> 
> It's no one's fault but yours that your software does not support the
> USENET standard of UTF-8.

LOL. Me, I actually want my posts to be widely read. But that's me...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/6/2014 2:54:45 PM
David Empson <dempson@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:

> One example: the reference-based email support is great for mailing
> lists which have discussions between several people. Even though I don't
> use MacSOUP as an email client, I occasionally import mailing list
> archives just so I can get a threaded view of prior conversations.
> 
> I use Thunderbird for email on my PC and it at least groups the
> discussion threads together, but I miss the overall structured view
> offered by MacSOUP.

Yuppers! :-) As previously mentioned, I used MacSOUP as my full time
email client, right up to the mid-2000's (and till 2008 for just mailing
lists) when it became impossible to avoid HTML messages, and I got tired
of either saving emails with HTML/attachments as text files to
extract/view with a decoder/HTML viewer app, or use webmail to get at
the attachment.

But I miss reading email conversations in MacSOUP. No other email client
I've used since or before, has made reading threads as easy and
intuitive *sigh*

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/6/2014 2:54:46 PM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <studnaVloYLVCQ3OnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
> Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> Don't forget that many Americans (the majority now?) are Hispanic.
> 
> Not even close to the majority.  As of two years ago (latest figures I
> could find), the Hispanic/Latino population of the US was 17% of the
> nation's total population.

There's a difference between nonwhite and Hispanic percentages 8-)
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
6/6/2014 3:10:25 PM
Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:56:45 -0400, JF Mezei 
> <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> Howver, what happens when the father is white and mother is hispanic ? 
>> is the birth considered hispanic ? and the other way around (hispanic 
>> dad, white mother) ?
> 
> Generally speaking, racial (or is that racist?) identification tends to 
> hew to the "taint in the blood" notion.

That's not my information: a few years ago a colleague who had an 
American father and a Hispanic mother told me he wasn't classified as 
Hispanic because he didn't have a Hispanic surname!

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/6/2014 3:19:48 PM
Tim Streater wrote:

> If you want 1.5 you either need to type 1.5 or perhaps 1 1/2 or even
> one point five or one-and-a-half.

In a newsgroup will an HTML character entity reference work?  Lets try: 
1&frac12;

Paul Magnussen
0
Paul
6/6/2014 3:23:33 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> That said: YOUR reader is the only one that I've encountered that gives 
> this kind of jibberish.

But the question remains: who is at fault?  If it is a bug of mine, I can
fix it if I know the cause.  If it is a bug of MT-NW, you’re out of luck.
If you’re not seeing it from others, I wonder if it’s because they’re not
using UTF-8 or if it’s because their newsreader does something different
(e.g., gives a MIME-Version header).  I’ll look into this further over the
weekend, when I can come back into this thread with MT-NW and look at some
of the messages.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 3:25:46 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> In message <do_ray_me-1786A5.08282806062014@aioe.org> 
>   dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> > Don't get upset by my remarks, I just think simple is much better in 
> > communication across the internet given the different clients, it is 
> > *not* printed communication.
> 
> It’s no one’s fault but yours that your software does not support the
> USENET standard of UTF-8.

But it might *still* be my fault if I’m doing something wrong in how I
issue that UTF-8.  While smart quote substitutions are certainly more
common in pointing out the issue than things like äccéñ†é∂ characters,
I will do my best to fix things on my end.  But, as I said in other
parts of the thread, I *know* MT-NW can do UTF-8 in some form, so I’m
hoping to find a solution that makes it happier rather than removing
modern features.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 3:34:49 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> But, my dear chap, consider the tennis-player Albert Montañés!  Every 
> day the poor bugger has to listen to the commentators calling him 
> monTARnes — and can you blame them, when his name is spelt wrongly on 
> the scoreboard?

I also have a feeling that Stephen Colbert has more going on with his
last name than the common spelling suggests . . . :-)

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 3:38:22 PM
In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11�2 hours usually gets me there.
> > 
> > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> 
> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?

Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
written it "1 1/2".
0
Michelle
6/6/2014 3:40:51 PM
In article <evWdnarv0baMQQzOnZ2dnUVZ_jadnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Paul
Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 22:56:45 -0400, JF Mezei 
> > <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >> Howver, what happens when the father is white and mother is hispanic ? 
> >> is the birth considered hispanic ? and the other way around (hispanic 
> >> dad, white mother) ?
> > 
> > Generally speaking, racial (or is that racist?) identification tends to 
> > hew to the "taint in the blood" notion.
> 
> That's not my information: a few years ago a colleague who had an 
> American father and a Hispanic mother told me he wasn't classified as 
> Hispanic because he didn't have a Hispanic surname!

And a non-Hispanic woman in my unit in the army married a Hispanic man
and suddenly became classified as Hispanic because of her name change.
0
Michelle
6/6/2014 3:45:22 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > Not sure about:        =E2=89=A0 =C2=B1  which show on the screen when =
> typing...
> 
>                           Yep.  They're okay reading too.

Maybe not.  As the above shows, your post was actually sent quoted-printable.
Still, odds are pretty good that things will come through for you when
actually done in UTF-8: ≠ ± (unless I have a bug and whatever makes MT-NW
fail affects Thunderbird as well).

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 3:52:12 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Yes - it's part of his smear campaign.  Similar to the tagline at the
> indiegogo site:
> 
>              "Bring Usenet Back to the Mac" as if it were lost.
> 
> It isn't.  Hasn't been.

To me, this is a strange thing to get bent out of shape over.  But I can
actually take it one step further: The Mac has *never* had Usenet support.
Oh, sure, just like other platforms it has had news *reader* software.  But,
at I noted on several occasions, none of those projects ever bothered to
factor out a libnntp to Mac Usenet itself a first-class protocol.  That’s
why one of my primary goals is to have NNTP.framework as a separate entity.

> Raise non-issues or irritants and insinuate that there is no solution
> for Macs - that's just crap.

I’m not saying you *can’t* run a newreader, GUI or command line, on a Mac.
All I’m saying is that Usenet is more than that, and that writing *for* the
Mac is a significant difference.  For a Mac user, Unison represents the last
available Mac app, and it ain’t free.  Don’t blame me for pointing out the
harsh realities of how poor Usenet support is on the Mac.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 4:03:06 PM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
> > >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
> > > 
> > > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> > 
> > Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> 
> Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
> written it "1 1/2".

That doesn´t help if Unison helpfully rewrites 1/2 as a unicode symbol.

-- 
Mvh./Regards,    Niels Jørgen Kruse,    Vanløse, Denmark
0
nospam
6/6/2014 4:04:35 PM
On 2014-06-06 15:40:51 +0000, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:

> In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11Ž2 hours usually gets me there.
>>> 
>>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
>> 
>> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> 
> Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
> written it "1 1/2".

Yup! lesson learned.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/6/2014 4:15:04 PM
In article <1lmtzg2.1lm3aqpsilcn4N%nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk>, Niels
J�rgen Kruse <nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk> wrote:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
> > In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11�2 hours usually gets me there.
> > > > 
> > > > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> > > 
> > > Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> > 
> > Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
> > written it "1 1/2".
> 
> That doesn�t help if Unison helpfully rewrites 1/2 as a unicode symbol.

It's not Unison; it's system preferences.  Open the Keyboard
preferences there, and click on Text.  You'll see a list of keystrokes
and their replacements in the table on the left.
0
Michelle
6/6/2014 4:20:35 PM
On 2014-06-06 16:04:35 +0000, nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk (Niels Jørgen 
Kruse) said:

> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> 
>> In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
>>>> 
>>>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
>>> 
>>> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
>> 
>> Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
>> written it "1 1/2".
> 
> That doesn´t help if Unison helpfully rewrites 1/2 as a unicode symbol.

What I have with this iMac with my Systems Preferences, Keyboard text 
*replace* options is this,
< https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/genius-scan+-pdf-scanner/id401818935?mt=8 >

However if I type 11/2 without a space Unison doesn't give me what I 
anticipated when I used a space, ½ (which you might or might not see as 
a fraction given whatever Usenet client you are using).

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/6/2014 4:30:22 PM
On 2014-06-06 16:30:22 +0000, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> said:

> On 2014-06-06 16:04:35 +0000, nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk (Niels Jørgen 
> Kruse) said:
> 
>> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>> Hitting 101N and driving about 11⁄2 hours usually gets me there.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
>>>> 
>>>> Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
>>> 
>>> Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
>>> written it "1 1/2".
>> 
>> That doesn´t help if Unison helpfully rewrites 1/2 as a unicode symbol.
> 
> What I have with this iMac with my Systems Preferences, Keyboard text 
> *replace* options is this,
> < https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/genius-scan+-pdf-scanner/id401818935?mt=8 >

Oops!! that was meant to be this:
< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_733.jpg >

> However if I type 11/2 without a space Unison doesn't give me what I 
> anticipated when I used a space, ½ (which you might or might not see as 
> a fraction given whatever Usenet client you are using).


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/6/2014 4:33:35 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> Fantastic graphical thread tree,

As I said elsewhere, I find this to be a poor way to represent message
relationships spatially.  It is not something I plan to do myself, but if
the project goes open source then there will be plenty of opportunities for
others to drop in their own views.  Or someone could drop a grand on the
campaign and make me do it.  :-)

> comprehensive views (unread/read/all/tagged/new/locked),

Out of context, I’m not entirely sure what this means or how it is in any
way special/unusual.  That is to say, common newsreading behavior is to
have messages deleted when they are marked as read.  Contrast this with
Mail, where the read state is separate.  Flagging and tagging are also
independent actions.

My intent for Signal is to be more like Mail.  Messages (at least the
overview headers, but possibly the entire thing) are pulled from the
server and kept until deleted.  All tagging/flagging/marking is unified.
Even “deleted” messages are merely tagged as trashed until such time they
are *actually* deleted.  That’s the plan, anyway.

> tagging to quickly and/or
> automatically mark posts and entire threads or sub-threads for reading
> one after the other,

Not sure I understand this one, either.  Although not yet implemented, the
expected behavior for a newsreader is to “quick read” with the space bar.
That is easily extended to perform said action on selected messages.  What
more might you want?

> powerful regular expression killfile,

Mostly “for free” with NSPredicate.

> true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,

I’m doing that now, and you don’t (strictly) want it.  References are a
very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages themselves
are likely to be deleted once read, but because the header’s length
limitations can present problems.

> clean easy to use UI that stays out of the way, great KB commands,

Not enough of a description to work with.  And quite subjective, too.

> great offline design...

As noted elsewhere, I don’t see offline operation as a special feature.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/6/2014 4:58:41 PM
In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:

> > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
> 
> I’m doing that now, and you don’t (strictly) want it.  References are a
> very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages themselves
> are likely to be deleted once read, but because the header’s length
> limitations can present problems.

What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message
its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again,
or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it as
unread and spacebar through for a second time.

> > clean easy to use UI that stays out of the way, great KB commands,
> 
> Not enough of a description to work with.  And quite subjective, too.
> 
> > great offline design...
> 
> As noted elsewhere, I don’t see offline operation as a special feature.

I don't even know what "offline" means in this context.

-- 
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,
nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted"  --  Bill of Rights 1689
0
Tim
6/6/2014 5:12:14 PM
On 2014.06.05, 22:13 , Lewis wrote:

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> hoist(self,petard);

Doh!

Thanks for proving the general point, however, Lewis:

Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him) 
there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.

Of course that is plain BS.

While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most people.

He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.




0
Alan
6/6/2014 8:47:35 PM
In article <060620141812146772%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc
> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
> > 
> > I�m doing that now, and you don�t (strictly) want it.  References are a
> > very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages themselves
> > are likely to be deleted once read, but because the header�s length
> > limitations can present problems.
> 
> What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message
> its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again,
> or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it as
> unread and spacebar through for a second time.

Yes. The messages stay until you close the newsgroup window, at which
point yes they're gone. Opening the newsgroup again will just give you
the unread messages. If they vanish as soon as you move to the next
message, you could never go back and post a reply once you've seen what
everyone else has already said.

-- 
Chris Mack       "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan'             - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
0
Invid
6/6/2014 8:47:36 PM
On 2014.06.05, 18:58 , Paul Magnussen wrote:
> Jamie Kahn Genet wrote:
>
>> Every single example you provided is understood perfectly without
>> accents and extended characters.
>
> Certainly.  But you and I have been able to post here in, and send each=

> other e-mails in, straight ASCII since =E2=80=94 what? the early '90s? =
Isn't it
> time to move on?

Thunderbird (as an example) shows accents and other characters quite=20
well.  That's beyond ASCII...

=C3=A8 =C3=A9 =C3=B4 =C3=B8 =C3=AE =C3=AF =C3=B6  ... =E2=89=A0 =C2=B1

The OP went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his=20
opening sentence:

	I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=
=84=A2ve been working ...

yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd=20
paragraph:

	I've done my best...

He is being dishonest about there being no Mac solution for usenet:
		"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"

Why say that when there are several Mac solutions? he's also planting=20
false evidence for a non-existent crisis.

By all means make a new usenet reader, but don't fly false flags to=20
justify it, or to get people to participate in a fund raiser.

If it's really worthwhile, he should publish the reader and seek=20
contributions or license fees.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.





0
Alan
6/6/2014 8:47:54 PM
In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> 
> > Fantastic graphical thread tree,
> 
> As I said elsewhere, I find this to be a poor way to represent message
> relationships spatially.

I will admit, after a decade or two of using first YA Newswatcher then
Thoth, I can't see how else you can do it. Click on the arrow beside
the subject, and see the entire flow of the thread. The ability to
avoid silly digressions is a must. You have my pledge, though, so I'm
willing to see what you have planned.

> My intent for Signal is to be more like Mail.  Messages (at least the
> overview headers, but possibly the entire thing) are pulled from the
> server and kept until deleted.  All tagging/flagging/marking is unified.
> Even �deleted� messages are merely tagged as trashed until such time they
> are *actually* deleted.  That�s the plan, anyway.

Pulling every message is going to eat into bandwidth, especially for
groups I haven't opened in awhile. Headers only, please, as with most
groups I'm not going to be reading most posts so don't want them
downloaded completely.

As for deleting posts, an option to "empty the trash" whenever a group
window is closed would be nice. The next time I open a group I only
want to see unread messages, so I don't have search for them mixed in
with the already read stuff.

-- 
Chris Mack       "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan'             - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
0
Invid
6/6/2014 8:57:21 PM
In article <060620140840518857%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
> > >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11�2 hours usually gets me there.
> > > 
> > > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> > 
> > Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> 
> Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.

That's exactly how it reads on my screen -- there's no space between the 
ones.

-- 
D.F. Manno | dfmanno@mail.com
GOP delenda est!
0
D
6/6/2014 11:30:24 PM
On 2014-06-06, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Tim Streater wrote:
>
>> If you want 1.5 you either need to type 1.5 or perhaps 1 1/2 or even
>> one point five or one-and-a-half.
>
> In a newsgroup will an HTML character entity reference work?  Lets try: 
> 1&frac12;

That has more to do with the news client you are using than the
capabilities of the Usenet medium.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/6/2014 11:31:34 PM
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:35 -0400, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to 
> him) there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>
> Of course that is plain BS.
>
> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most 
> people.

Not for people used to using a good newsreader.

> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".

Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?  
If you're not going to put money into it because you're happy with 
Thunderbird or MacSOUP or some other outdated, unsupported newsreader or 
quasi-current expensive one that's fine.  Don't chip in rather than 
being some sort of self-appointed arbiter of what he should or shouldn't 
do.  The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal 
much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop the 
signal.
0
Tim
6/7/2014 12:02:01 AM
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:36 -0400, Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> 
wrote:
> In article <060620141812146772%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater 
><timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>
>> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc 
>> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > For your reference, records indicate that 
>> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
>> 
>> > > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
>> > 
>> > I¹m doing that now, and you don¹t (strictly) want it.  References 
>> > are a very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages 
>> > themselves are likely to be deleted once read, but because the 
>> > header¹s length limitations can present problems.
>> 
>> What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message 
>> its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again, 
>> or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it 
>> as unread and spacebar through for a second time.
>
> Yes. The messages stay until you close the newsgroup window, at which 
> point yes they're gone. Opening the newsgroup again will just give you 
> the unread messages. If they vanish as soon as you move to the next 
> message, you could never go back and post a reply once you've seen 
> what everyone else has already said.

That wasn't true with MT-NW at least and probably isn't true with many 
other newsreaders.  As long as the messages were still spooled on the 
NNTP servers, MT-NW and its kin could get them even if the user had 
marked them as read and quit, logged out, rebooted, etc.  Marking as 
read is not the same as deleting off the server like it is with POP 
based e-mail; it's more like IMAP.
0
Tim
6/7/2014 12:05:56 AM
On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:35 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to
>> him) there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>
>> Of course that is plain BS.
>>
>> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most
>> people.
>
> Not for people used to using a good newsreader.

I've used many and TB fills my needs more than adequately.  I hesitate=20
to imagine how much I'd have to use usenet for me to believe TB to be=20
not good.

>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>
> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?

Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather =

than truth, I'd be very wary.

Claim 1 that he makes:
	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"

There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various=20
clients available and they do more that enough.

Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP=20
went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening=20
sentence which I'll quote here:

     I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been working ..=
=2E

yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd=20
paragraph (quoted again):

     I've done my best...

So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other=20
para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?

> The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal
> much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop the=

> signal.

If he reaches that goal then I hope he delivers for those who pony up.=20
The goal he set is more along the lines of someone developing a bit of=20
hardware and where some tooling or material orders are needed which is=20
usually how these campaigns go.

(Yes I have pledged to such in the past and I got a widget out of it at=20
half the retail price).

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 12:24:08 AM
In article <lmsmhq$ilo$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> But the question remains: who is at fault?  If it is a bug of mine, I can
> fix it if I know the cause.  If it is a bug of MT-NW, you’re out of luck.

In MT-NW, in its prefs, you can "Decode unlabelled articles as:" 
various things. Unicode UT-8 is one I use. There is also a box to tick 
to "Try to detect encodings".

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/MT_NW-pref.png>

Nevertheless, the post still looks like this:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/darrinPost.png>

As you once hinted at, there is a way to attack individual posts to 
get them to look righter, under the menu of Edit/Decode as and 
choosing UTF-8. It then an look like:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/decodeTacticallyAsUTF-8.png>

The bug or the lack in MT-NW is that you can't set this in clay, it 
seems unable to keep such a setting strategically.

The choices under the Language prefs are:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/choicesUnderLanguage.png>

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/7/2014 12:58:51 AM
In article <LrydnUwBzpI0xg_OnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal
> > much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop the
> > signal.
> 
> If he reaches that goal then I hope he delivers for those who pony up. 
> The goal he set is more along the lines of someone developing a bit of 
> hardware and where some tooling or material orders are needed which is 
> usually how these campaigns go.

With 25 days to go and only $380 pledged, he's not going to make that
goal of twenty grand, and that's a shame.
0
Michelle
6/7/2014 1:36:34 AM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>
>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>
> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather 
> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>
> Claim 1 that he makes:
> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>
> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various 
> clients available and they do more that enough.

I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we all
know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such a
harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product
than any silly marketing text about it.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 1:57:47 AM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>
>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>
>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>
> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather 
> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>
[snip]
>
> Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP 
> went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening 
> sentence which I'll quote here:
>
>      I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working ...
>
> yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd 
> paragraph (quoted again):
>
>      I've done my best...
>
> So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other 
> para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?

You may not know this, but the Unicode right single quotation mark
character (2019) that you are so upset about is actually the very same
"smart quote" character that the default Mac OS X configuration
automatically replaces whenever you type the ASCII apostrophe character
in a Cocoa application. Given that his message was posted (and probably
composed) within a brand-new alpha-quality application more than opens
the possibility that the characters appeared due to Cocoa's built-in
replacement mechanism, and may have experienced a use case where some of
the ASCII apostrophe characters did not get replaced with smart quotes.
Why on Earth someone would immediately jump to the conclusion that
something nefarious is going on here is beyond me. Again, it seems
fairly disingenuous to me, and makes me wonder why you are so dedicated
to railing again what could be a net benefit for the Mac/iOS
community. Very strange behavior to me...

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 2:41:06 AM
On 2014-06-07, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <LrydnUwBzpI0xg_OnZ2dnUVZ_qydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
><alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> > The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal
>> > much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop the
>> > signal.
>> 
>> If he reaches that goal then I hope he delivers for those who pony up. 
>> The goal he set is more along the lines of someone developing a bit of 
>> hardware and where some tooling or material orders are needed which is 
>> usually how these campaigns go.
>
> With 25 days to go and only $380 pledged, he's not going to make that
> goal of twenty grand, and that's a shame.

It probably needs to be announced to a much larger audience to see that
kind of community action.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 2:42:44 AM
In article <Hc2dnQMg3_N6tQ_OnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2014.06.05, 22:13 , Lewis wrote:
> 
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> >                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > hoist(self,petard);
> 
> Doh!
> 
> Thanks for proving the general point, however, Lewis:
> 
> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him) 
> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
> 
> Of course that is plain BS.
> 
> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most people.
> 
> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".

My personal opinion is that all the newsreaders I've tried in Mavericks 
are shit.  Tried 'em all, and each had something that was a deal breaker.

Toth was about the best of them (prolly because it was so much like MT - 
but Toth isn't available anymore.)

I downgraded back to Mt. Lion for this reason.

I haven't seen the post you refer to... the one where we're being told 
"there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era".

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/7/2014 4:43:05 AM
In article <Hc2dnQMg3_N6tQ_OnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".

And just why the hell should *he* do what you'd like him to do?

You make it sound like he's being a dick, when in reality...

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/7/2014 4:44:16 AM
In article <bvf9srFgllqU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? 

Well, two kinds of people... those that like flying, and those that 
like, well, let's just say everybody else...

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/7/2014 4:47:12 AM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> As you once hinted at, there is a way to attack individual posts to 
> get them to look righter, under the menu of Edit/Decode as and 
> choosing UTF-8. It then an look like:
> 
> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/decodeTacticallyAsUTF-8.png>
> 
> The bug or the lack in MT-NW is that you can't set this in clay, it 
> seems unable to keep such a setting strategically.

It's also not rendering the sig text correctly, although that'd be
asking a lot from a program as all as MT-NW seems to be.  Here's what
you should see (stand on your head to read it if need be, heh) -

http://MIX.COM/UTF-8.png

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/7/2014 8:38:42 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> However if I type 11/2 without a space Unison doesn't give me what I 
> anticipated when I used a space, ? (which you might or might not see as
> a fraction given whatever Usenet client you are using).

No, I don't because MacSOUP is MacRoman based and that fraction
character is the most common problem.

-- 
Mvh./Regards,    Niels J�rgen Kruse,    Vanl�se, Denmark
0
nospam
6/7/2014 8:46:28 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
>
> I'm doing that now, and you don't (strictly) want it.  References are a
> very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages themselves
> are likely to be deleted once read

Other people have explained this...

> but because the header's length limitations can present problems.

Yes, propagation will suffer if you exceed 1021 bytes (plus three for
terminators).  In the past, it was best to break that into two shorter
lines, although I don't know it that's still true.

I rarely sort by references, but many people do, and it can be made to
work well, regardless of the string length limit(s).

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/7/2014 9:33:39 AM
On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>
>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>
>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?=

>>
>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rath=
er
>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>
>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>
>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>
> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we al=
l
> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such =
a
> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product=

> than any silly marketing text about it.

Good for you.

And what about the fake bug farts he posted?  I'll repost here - they=20
seem to have fallen off your computer:

Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP=20
went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening=20
sentence which I'll quote here:

     I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been working ..=
=2E

yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd=20
paragraph (quoted again):

     I've done my best...

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 11:57:10 AM
On 2014.06.06, 22:41 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>
>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>
>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?=

>>
>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rath=
er
>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP
>> went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening=

>> sentence which I'll quote here:
>>
>>       I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=
=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve been working ...
>>
>> yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd
>> paragraph (quoted again):
>>
>>       I've done my best...
>>
>> So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other
>> para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?
>
> You may not know this, but the Unicode right single quotation mark
> character (2019) that you are so upset about is actually the very same
> "smart quote" character that the default Mac OS X configuration
> automatically replaces whenever you type the ASCII apostrophe character=

> in a Cocoa application. Given that his message was posted (and probably=

> composed) within a brand-new alpha-quality application more than opens
> the possibility that the characters appeared due to Cocoa's built-in
> replacement mechanism, and may have experienced a use case where some o=
f
> the ASCII apostrophe characters did not get replaced with smart quotes.=

> Why on Earth someone would immediately jump to the conclusion that
> something nefarious is going on here is beyond me. Again, it seems
> fairly disingenuous to me, and makes me wonder why you are so dedicated=

> to railing again what could be a net benefit for the Mac/iOS
> community. Very strange behavior to me...

The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the=20
first line, but not in the 2nd para?

I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from=20
the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question=20
should perhaps focus his effort there.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 11:59:35 AM
On 2014.06.07, 00:43 , FPP wrote:
> In article <Hc2dnQMg3_N6tQ_OnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>   Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2014.06.05, 22:13 , Lewis wrote:
>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>>>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> hoist(self,petard);
>>
>> Doh!
>>
>> Thanks for proving the general point, however, Lewis:
>>
>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>
>> Of course that is plain BS.
>>
>> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most people.
>>
>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>
> My personal opinion is that all the newsreaders I've tried in Mavericks
> are shit.  Tried 'em all, and each had something that was a deal breaker.
>
> Toth was about the best of them (prolly because it was so much like MT -
> but Toth isn't available anymore.)
>
> I downgraded back to Mt. Lion for this reason.
>
> I haven't seen the post you refer to... the one where we're being told
> "there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era".

Follow the link in the first post.


-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 12:00:42 PM
On 2014.06.07, 00:44 , FPP wrote:
> In article <Hc2dnQMg3_N6tQ_OnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>   Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>
> And just why the hell should *he* do what you'd like him to do?

He can do as he likes.   However, the usual crowdfunding on indiegogo at 
the amounts he's trying to raise is when the developer needs to purchase 
material and/or tooling for the product he's trying to develop.

>
> You make it sound like he's being a dick, when in reality...

No dick.  Just not realistic in development demand for a thing that he 
could market as payware/shareware/donation ware afterwards.

The case is that there is no pure-of-heart usenet client for Mac and 
that the Mac community is clamoring for such.  If that is the case then 
he shouldn't fear toiling now and tolling later.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 12:05:02 PM
On 2014.06.06, 11:52 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> Not sure about:        =E2=89=A0 =C2=B1  which show on the screen when =
>> typing...
>>
>>                            Yep.  They're okay reading too.
>
> Maybe not.  As the above shows, your post was actually sent quoted-printable.

On TB, Unison and Google Groups those character show correctly:

TB http://tinyurl.com/n3zfatg
  U http://tinyurl.com/octy8cs
GG http://tinyurl.com/pgvjcbw


-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 12:21:05 PM
On 2014.06.06, 12:03 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Yes - it's part of his smear campaign.  Similar to the tagline at the
>> indiegogo site:
>>
>>               "Bring Usenet Back to the Mac" as if it were lost.
>>
>> It isn't.  Hasn't been.
>
> To me, this is a strange thing to get bent out of shape over.  But I ca=
n
> actually take it one step further: The Mac has *never* had Usenet suppo=
rt.
> Oh, sure, just like other platforms it has had news *reader* software. =
 But,
> at I noted on several occasions, none of those projects ever bothered t=
o
> factor out a libnntp to Mac Usenet itself a first-class protocol.  That=
=E2=80=99s
> why one of my primary goals is to have NNTP.framework as a separate ent=
ity.

Then get cracking.

Seriously - where the Apple world needs a usenet client is for iOS.

>> Raise non-issues or irritants and insinuate that there is no solution
>> for Macs - that's just crap.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not saying you *can=E2=80=99t* run a newreader, GUI or comm=
and line, on a Mac.
> All I=E2=80=99m saying is that Usenet is more than that, and that writi=
ng *for* the
> Mac is a significant difference.  For a Mac user, Unison represents the=
 last
> available Mac app, and it ain=E2=80=99t free.  Don=E2=80=99t blame me f=
or pointing out the
> harsh realities of how poor Usenet support is on the Mac.

Your request for funding isn't free either.  I could understand a=20
realistic goal.  Say $2500 to keep you in scotch and cigars.  Then when=20
the thing is published, donations or or a fee or even a license.  There=20
is nothing wrong with that at all (just about everyone here -does- pay=20
for some or much of their software.  There are few "it must be free"=20
types here.

$20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is needed. =

  I've contributed to those.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 12:25:49 PM
Hi Alan,

On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from 
> the development of a good newsreader.

NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356

There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free 
version of both. I paid the little fee and don't regret it. It's very 
powerful. It's worth the small amount.
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/7/2014 12:53:51 PM
In article <fredp151-F664C7.00430507062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:

> My personal opinion is that all the newsreaders I've tried in Mavericks 
> are shit.  Tried 'em all, and each had something that was a deal breaker.
> 
> Toth was about the best of them (prolly because it was so much like MT - 
> but Toth isn't available anymore.)
> 
> I downgraded back to Mt. Lion for this reason.

Is usenet *that* important to you?
0
Michelle
6/7/2014 1:36:42 PM
In article <bvggb0FoipmU1@mid.individual.net>, Paul F�rster
<paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> > I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from 
> > the development of a good newsreader.
> 
> NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356
> 
> There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free 
> version of both. I paid the little fee and don't regret it. It's very 
> powerful. It's worth the small amount.

It's a (barely) adequate newsreader; Alan (and I, and a lot of other
people) would like to have a *good* newsreader.
0
Michelle
6/7/2014 1:44:14 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>
>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>
>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>>>
>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather
>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>
>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>
>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>
>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we all
>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such a
>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product
>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>
> Good for you.

What's good for me?

> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?

You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 2:12:37 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.06, 22:41 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>
>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>
>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>>>
>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather
>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP
>>> went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening
>>> sentence which I'll quote here:
>>>
>>>       I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working ...
>>>
>>> yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd
>>> paragraph (quoted again):
>>>
>>>       I've done my best...
>>>
>>> So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other
>>> para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?
>>
>> You may not know this, but the Unicode right single quotation mark
>> character (2019) that you are so upset about is actually the very same
>> "smart quote" character that the default Mac OS X configuration
>> automatically replaces whenever you type the ASCII apostrophe character
>> in a Cocoa application. Given that his message was posted (and probably
>> composed) within a brand-new alpha-quality application more than opens
>> the possibility that the characters appeared due to Cocoa's built-in
>> replacement mechanism, and may have experienced a use case where some of
>> the ASCII apostrophe characters did not get replaced with smart quotes.
>> Why on Earth someone would immediately jump to the conclusion that
>> something nefarious is going on here is beyond me. Again, it seems
>> fairly disingenuous to me, and makes me wonder why you are so dedicated
>> to railing again what could be a net benefit for the Mac/iOS
>> community. Very strange behavior to me...
>
> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the 
> first line, but not in the 2nd para?

No, the strange behavior is all on your shoulders. You have asserted
that the characters in question were placed in the message nefariously,
and you have not yet proved your assertion - yet you continue to rail
against it as if it were true. Nice try at skirting the real issue, BTW.

> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from 
> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question 
> should perhaps focus his effort there.

I'd like to see what he has in mind for both Mac OS and iOS, personally.
I see absolutely no need to discourage what could become a good thing
for the community. You seem to feel differently, which I think is
strange.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 2:16:14 PM
On 2014.06.07, 10:16 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

>> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the
>> first line, but not in the 2nd para?
>
> No, the strange behavior is all on your shoulders. You have asserted
> that the characters in question were placed in the message nefariously,

Since they appear in the first para and not in the second para with the 
same wording, it does appear curious.  No explanation has spewed forth.

> and you have not yet proved your assertion - yet you continue to rail

So prove to me why they appear so in the first para and not in the second?

> against it as if it were true. Nice try at skirting the real issue, BTW.

What real issue?  That he claims there is no Usenet support for Mac?

That he wants to Toll now and Toil after?

That the amount requested is unrealistic (as others have noted as well).

>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from
>> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question
>> should perhaps focus his effort there.
>
> I'd like to see what he has in mind for both Mac OS and iOS, personally.
> I see absolutely no need to discourage what could become a good thing
> for the community. You seem to feel differently, which I think is
> strange.

I just believe, since he has no capital outlay (material or tooling) 
that he should toil now and toll later.  Or at least reduce his launch 
incentive to scotch and cigars level - say $2500.

His current approach is a couple months salary with no guarantee of 
delivery of a practical product.  I'm not doubting his ability but as 
any southern gentleman with a shotgun will tell you, you feed the 
birddogs after the hunt.

If the market case is as strong as you, he and some others seem to 
believe then, again, toil now, toll later.

If the current Mac offerings are so horrible as many of you say, then he 
should have no problem getting donations, sharepay or license fees once 
it's out there and proven.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 2:30:05 PM
On 2014.06.07, 08:53 , Paul F=F6rster wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>
> On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit
>> from the development of a good newsreader.
>
> NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356
>
> There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free
> version of both. I paid the little fee and don't regret it. It's very
> powerful. It's worth the small amount.

I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in the=20
iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized.  For that reason I mentioned =

that the OP might be induced to focus there.


--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 2:34:21 PM
Hi Alan,

On 2014-06-07 14:34:21 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in the 
> iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized.  For that reason I 
> mentioned that the OP might be induced to focus there.

what about checking it out for yourself before critisizing?

As for Signal, I don't see your point. If you don't like it, or the 
idea, or the amount, or whatever, then don't support it. It's just that 
easy. If the OP manages to get the money he wants/needs, then good for 
him. What the heck is the problem there?
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/7/2014 2:57:04 PM
On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>
>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>>>>
>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather
>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>
>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>
>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>
>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we all
>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such a
>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product
>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>
>> Good for you.
>
> What's good for me?
>
>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>
> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.

Show me they weren't.

It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the other 
with the same punctuation.

All you great experts should tell me why that is so.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 3:12:00 PM
In article <bZadnb2LXN9zvA7OnZ2dnUVZ_iydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> That he wants to Toll now and Toil after?

If he doesn't reach his goal, the money is refunded.  Also, he is
toiling now, as evidenced by the headers in his messages.

> That the amount requested is unrealistic (as others have noted as well).

That's his problem; it shouldn't be a problem for anyone else.

> I just believe, since he has no capital outlay (material or tooling) 
> that he should toil now and toll later.  Or at least reduce his launch 
> incentive to scotch and cigars level - say $2500.

You're not him, and you're not developing the software.  So what you
believe in this regard is irrelevant.
0
Michelle
6/7/2014 3:13:39 PM
On 2014.06.07, 10:57 , Paul F=F6rster wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>
> On 2014-06-07 14:34:21 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>> I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in the
>> iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized.  For that reason I
>> mentioned that the OP might be induced to focus there.
>
> what about checking it out for yourself before critisizing?

I did not criticize it at all.

I don't have an iPad and I don't see the point in doing usenet with my=20
iPhone.  (Life is short enough).  Even if I had an iPad I don't think=20
I'd even want usenet on there.  It's something I do over coffee, beer or =

wine in my home office while I do other things.  Usenet is a 'side' task =

for me.

> As for Signal, I don't see your point. If you don't like it, or the
> idea, or the amount, or whatever, then don't support it. It's just that=

> easy. If the OP manages to get the money he wants/needs, then good for
> him. What the heck is the problem there?

I've answered that several times - just go up the thread.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 3:18:00 PM
Hi Alan,

On 2014-06-07 15:18:00 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> I did not criticize it at all.

right, you rely on other people's views rather than trying out if 
something suits *YOU*.

> I don't have an iPad and I don't see the point in doing usenet with my 
> iPhone.  (Life is short enough).  Even if I had an iPad I don't think 
> I'd even want usenet on there.  It's something I do over coffee, beer 
> or wine in my home office while I do other things.  Usenet is a 'side' 
> task for me.

then why your whining about the need for a news reader on iOS?

> I've answered that several times - just go up the thread.

I won't because all I've read from you so far is whining about the OP's 
attitude and what not. This is boring. Also, if Usenet would really be 
a "side task" for you, then why do you spend so much time here? No, no 
answer necessary.
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/7/2014 3:23:27 PM
On 2014.06.07, 11:23 , Paul F=F6rster wrote:
> Hi Alan,
>
> On 2014-06-07 15:18:00 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>> I did not criticize it at all.
>
> right, you rely on other people's views rather than trying out if
> something suits *YOU*.

Now you're irritating me.

What I said a couple posts ago was:

	"I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD
          benefit from the development of a good newsreader."

     and

	"I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in
	 the iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized."

Believe it or not what other people say on usenet about products does=20
influence me and others.  When I see what many people say about that s/w =

I tend to believe them.

Perhaps you have buyer based bias.  Take heart it's a very well known=20
psychologically observed condition.  (eg: automobile adverts are most=20
aimed at people who have bought the car (purchase decision reinforcement)=
).

>> I don't have an iPad and I don't see the point in doing usenet with my=

>> iPhone.  (Life is short enough).  Even if I had an iPad I don't think
>> I'd even want usenet on there.  It's something I do over coffee, beer
>> or wine in my home office while I do other things.  Usenet is a 'side'=

>> task for me.
>
> then why your whining about the need for a news reader on iOS?

I'm not.  I replied to JR's observation about iOS and I agreed, that=20
based on what I've read in the past on the iOS groups, that there seems=20
to be a genuine need there.

>> I've answered that several times - just go up the thread.
>
> I won't because all I've read from you so far is whining about the OP's=

> attitude and what not.

Believe what's convenient to you.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.

0
Alan
6/7/2014 3:36:10 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-06, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > In a newsgroup will an HTML character entity reference work?  Lets try: 
> > 1&frac12;
> 
> That has more to do with the news client you are using than the
> capabilities of the Usenet medium.

And also the declared Content-Type.  It was sent as text/plain, so even if a newsreader did support HTML it would likely not show the fraction.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 3:40:27 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> Nevertheless, the post still looks like this:
> 
> <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/darrinPost.png>

OK.  It seems that MT-NW relies on a MIME-Version header to do the proper processing.  I was hoping to hold off on declaring that until I had better/full MIME support, but I’ve gone ahead and added it so now you should at least see the “smart quotes” bits properly.

There are still many other non-Latin characters that MT-NW doesn’t want to render (like what I put in my .sig), Emoji, and of course the text substitutions for ½ that we’ve had so much fun with.  But hopefully you can now see the “common” substitutions that get done.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 3:55:01 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather
>>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>>
>>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>>
>>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>>
>>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
>>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
>>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we all
>>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
>>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such a
>>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
>>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
>>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product
>>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>>
>>> Good for you.
>>
>> What's good for me?
>>
>>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>>
>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>
> Show me they weren't.

You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Show the proof, or
recant. Simple.

> It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the other 
> with the same punctuation.

Strange? I think not. It was likely both created and sent with
alpha-quality software, and it's quite possible at some point during
authoring something prevented Cocoa from doing its normal substitution.

> All you great experts should tell me why that is so.

I can't explain why you find this so strange.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 3:58:09 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <1lmtzg2.1lm3aqpsilcn4N%nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk>, Niels
> Jørgen Kruse <nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk> wrote:
> 
> > Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <2014060523351296834-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > >> Hitting 101N and driving about 11Ž2 hours usually gets me there.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 5.5 hours? You drive slow.
> > > > 
> > > > Does the "1" read as "5" on your MT-NW?
> > > 
> > > Apparently he read it as eleven divided by two.  Maybe you should have
> > > written it "1 1/2".
> > 
> > That doesn´t help if Unison helpfully rewrites 1/2 as a unicode symbol.
> 
> It's not Unison; it's system preferences.  Open the Keyboard
> preferences there, and click on Text.  You'll see a list of keystrokes
> and their replacements in the table on the left.

And, even then, it’s MT-NW deciding to render it by turning it into plain text.  It clearly recognizes what character it *should* be, but there’s probably some limitation to its display system that allows it to show things like ñ properly, but not ½ or (and I had no idea this was a thing until today) ↉.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 4:01:54 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 10:16 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the
>>> first line, but not in the 2nd para?
>>
>> No, the strange behavior is all on your shoulders. You have asserted
>> that the characters in question were placed in the message nefariously,
>
> Since they appear in the first para and not in the second para with the 
> same wording, it does appear curious.  No explanation has spewed forth.

Suggesting he did it on purpose for nefarious reasons is not the same as
simply being curious.

>> and you have not yet proved your assertion - yet you continue to rail
>
> So prove to me why they appear so in the first para and not in the second?

I don't have to prove anything to you, since it is you who made the
assertion to begin with.

What I can say is what I have already said: he created and posted the
message with alpha-quality software; the character in question is the
very same one Cocoa applications substitute for smart quotes, and it's
possible the reason the replacement failed in the second paragraph is
due to a bug in said alpha-quality software.

>> against it as if it were true. Nice try at skirting the real issue, BTW.
>
> What real issue?  That he claims there is no Usenet support for Mac?

No, that you are being unreasonable.

> That he wants to Toll now and Toil after?

Not even sure what you mean by this, but it surely sounds like you are
slinging an insult his way to me. Do you have some personal problem with
Doc or something?

> That the amount requested is unrealistic (as others have noted as well).
>
>>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from
>>> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question
>>> should perhaps focus his effort there.
>>
>> I'd like to see what he has in mind for both Mac OS and iOS, personally.
>> I see absolutely no need to discourage what could become a good thing
>> for the community. You seem to feel differently, which I think is
>> strange.
>
> I just believe, since he has no capital outlay (material or tooling) 
> that he should toil now and toll later.  Or at least reduce his launch 
> incentive to scotch and cigars level - say $2500.

*shrug* I really don't care what he does with his money or time, other
than my own selfish interest in seeing someone create a well-designed
reusable NNTP framework and Apple Usenet client.

> His current approach is a couple months salary with no guarantee of 
> delivery of a practical product.  I'm not doubting his ability but as 
> any southern gentleman with a shotgun will tell you, you feed the 
> birddogs after the hunt.

Not every human on this planet has the same motivations as you.

> If the market case is as strong as you, he and some others seem to 
> believe then, again, toil now, toll later.

I haven't made any assertions as to the marketability of this potential
product.

> If the current Mac offerings are so horrible as many of you say, then he 
> should have no problem getting donations, sharepay or license fees once 
> it's out there and proven.

I personally don't consider the Mac offerings to be all that horrible;
so you'll have to take that argument up with someone else. That said I
will naturally agree that there is much room for improvement in the Mac
Usenet client space.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 4:12:05 PM
On 2014.06.07, 11:58 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:=

>>>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrot=
e:
>>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation o=
r
>>>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing=
 it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception =
rather
>>>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various=

>>>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>>>
>>>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that t=
he
>>>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem=
 to
>>>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but w=
e all
>>>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
>>>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take s=
uch a
>>>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
>>>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much m=
ore
>>>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final pro=
duct
>>>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>>>
>>>> Good for you.
>>>
>>> What's good for me?
>>>
>>>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>>>
>>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>>
>> Show me they weren't.
>
> You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Show the proof, or
> recant. Simple.

I showed the evidence.   Viewing the source doesn't show me much other th=
an:

      "I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been..."

and

      "I've done my best to ..."


>
>> It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the oth=
er
>> with the same punctuation.
>
> Strange? I think not. It was likely both created and sent with
> alpha-quality software, and it's quite possible at some point during
> authoring something prevented Cocoa from doing its normal substitution.=


Possible, huh?

>> All you great experts should tell me why that is so.
>
> I can't explain why you find this so strange.

Let's try this:   "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."

This is filler.  This is more filler.  Fill.  Fill.
Intentionally filled. Filler.  More filler.  Full of filller.
Fill. Fill.  Fill.  FULL!

Let's try again:  "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."

Now let's see if that posts the same way twice.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 4:13:11 PM
On 2014.06.07, 12:13 , Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 11:58 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote=
:
>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wro=
te:
>>>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation =
or
>>>>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's
>>>>>>>> doing it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception=

>>>>>>> rather
>>>>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>>>>>     "Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are variou=
s
>>>>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that =
the
>>>>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You
>>>>>> seem to
>>>>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but
>>>>>> we all
>>>>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual=

>>>>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take
>>>>>> such a
>>>>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing=

>>>>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much
>>>>>> more
>>>>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final
>>>>>> product
>>>>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good for you.
>>>>
>>>> What's good for me?
>>>>
>>>>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>>>>
>>>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>>>
>>> Show me they weren't.
>>
>> You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Show the proof, or
>> recant. Simple.
>
> I showed the evidence.   Viewing the source doesn't show me much other
> than:
>
>       "I=E2=80=99ve mentioned here before that I=E2=80=99ve been..."
>
> and
>
>       "I've done my best to ..."
>
>
>>
>>> It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the ot=
her
>>> with the same punctuation.
>>
>> Strange? I think not. It was likely both created and sent with
>> alpha-quality software, and it's quite possible at some point during
>> authoring something prevented Cocoa from doing its normal substitution=
=2E
>
> Possible, huh?
>
>>> All you great experts should tell me why that is so.
>>
>> I can't explain why you find this so strange.
>
> Let's try this:   "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>
> This is filler.  This is more filler.  Fill.  Fill.
> Intentionally filled. Filler.  More filler.  Full of filller.
> Fill. Fill.  Fill.  FULL!
>
> Let's try again:  "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>
> Now let's see if that posts the same way twice.

Yep.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 4:14:20 PM
On 2014.06.07, 12:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.07, 10:16 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>>> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the
>>>> first line, but not in the 2nd para?
>>>
>>> No, the strange behavior is all on your shoulders. You have asserted
>>> that the characters in question were placed in the message nefariously,
>>
>> Since they appear in the first para and not in the second para with the
>> same wording, it does appear curious.  No explanation has spewed forth.
>
> Suggesting he did it on purpose for nefarious reasons is not the same as
> simply being curious.

Then I do hope the OP replies to the curious issue.

>
>>> and you have not yet proved your assertion - yet you continue to rail
>>
>> So prove to me why they appear so in the first para and not in the second?
>
> I don't have to prove anything to you, since it is you who made the
> assertion to begin with.

Indeed.  Let's have the OP weigh in.

>
> What I can say is what I have already said: he created and posted the
> message with alpha-quality software; the character in question is the
> very same one Cocoa applications substitute for smart quotes, and it's
> possible the reason the replacement failed in the second paragraph is
> due to a bug in said alpha-quality software.

Is this a known bug?

>
>>> against it as if it were true. Nice try at skirting the real issue, BTW.
>>
>> What real issue?  That he claims there is no Usenet support for Mac?
>
> No, that you are being unreasonable.

The hell I am.  There are various Mavericks usenet clients that work 
fine enough and he's claiming that there is a need to bring usenet back 
to OS X.

>
>> That he wants to Toll now and Toil after?
>
> Not even sure what you mean by this, but it surely sounds like you are
> slinging an insult his way to me. Do you have some personal problem with
> Doc or something?

Not at all.  As I said, beyond the two irritants I have with his 
presentation of the issue is the large sum he's requesting in advance.
>
>> That the amount requested is unrealistic (as others have noted as well).
>>
>>>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from
>>>> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question
>>>> should perhaps focus his effort there.
>>>
>>> I'd like to see what he has in mind for both Mac OS and iOS, personally.
>>> I see absolutely no need to discourage what could become a good thing
>>> for the community. You seem to feel differently, which I think is
>>> strange.
>>
>> I just believe, since he has no capital outlay (material or tooling)
>> that he should toil now and toll later.  Or at least reduce his launch
>> incentive to scotch and cigars level - say $2500.
>
> *shrug* I really don't care what he does with his money or time, other
> than my own selfish interest in seeing someone create a well-designed
> reusable NNTP framework and Apple Usenet client.

The point here would be: did you pledge?  If you did, that's great.

>> His current approach is a couple months salary with no guarantee of
>> delivery of a practical product.  I'm not doubting his ability but as
>> any southern gentleman with a shotgun will tell you, you feed the
>> birddogs after the hunt.
>
> Not every human on this planet has the same motivations as you.

As I've also said I have funded projects via indiegogo and I have bought 
the resultant product.  (A hardware widget).  In that case there were 
motivations for me:

- no such device available at the proposed retail price
- a general social need for such a product
- an occasional personal need for such
- "novelty" entertainment in those occasional events where such could be 
needed.
- very compact size

(That said, they didn't deliver on time for my specific need at the 
time, but it has come into amusing use since).

>
>> If the market case is as strong as you, he and some others seem to
>> believe then, again, toil now, toll later.
>
> I haven't made any assertions as to the marketability of this potential
> product.

IIRC you made some comment earlier about letting the market decide. 
OTOH, I confused you with the OP at one point so ...

>
>> If the current Mac offerings are so horrible as many of you say, then he
>> should have no problem getting donations, sharepay or license fees once
>> it's out there and proven.
>
> I personally don't consider the Mac offerings to be all that horrible;
> so you'll have to take that argument up with someone else. That said I
> will naturally agree that there is much room for improvement in the Mac
> Usenet client space.

And I would tend to be more passive in that respect.  What I (and most 
people) do on usenet is really a very elaborate form of public forum 
texting.  For that the existing apps are more than adequate.  But that's 
me...

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/7/2014 4:27:13 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Then get cracking.

I already got cracking.  That’s the point of me demoing a prototype for the
campaign.  A separate framework already exists and works fairly well, but I
would still want to to *a lot* of tweaking before releasing it (especially
cleaning up the API for public consumption).

> Seriously - where the Apple world needs a usenet client is for iOS.

Well, unless funding picks up dramatically, they’re not going to get it
from me.  It seems the economics of the “need” just isn’t in line with the
effort involved.  Either a lot more people need to get interested in Usenet
as a social network, or some entity with funding needs to see how it can be
leveraged for a particular goal.  And, in the grand scheme of things, the
$20K or $50K that it would take is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to
some of the projects I’ve worked on that cost much more and achieved so
much less.

> Your request for funding isn't free either.

It’s free in that the result will be free to everyone, and possibly even
free to the extent of putting the code in the public domain, and that is
*hugely* important when you want to be able to introduce new people to
Usenet.  That’s a far better deal than having *everyone* pay, like Unison
does.  Even a non-commercial effort like mine has a non-zero cost.

> $20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is needed.

$20K is the economic reality.  If you don’t agree, you’re welcome to pay
someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how much cheaper
it ends up being.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 4:32:05 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> What do you mean by "deleted"?

As noted by Invid, deleted in the sense that the visibility of the *local*
message makes in unavailable for operations, such as threading, once it
has been read and the group closed.  Mail does not behave that way;
reading and deleting are two different actions.  For some reason, things
like Usenet and RSS readers tend to conflate the two.

> I don't even know what "offline" means in this context.

It generally means working the way Mail does: grab all messages you can as
soon as you can.  It results in some wasted bandwidth and disk space if you
don’t actually read most of the articles, but it results in a better user
experience because everything is local, so things are faster and you can do
more extensive filtering.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 4:49:04 PM
On 2014-06-07 08:46:28 +0000, nospam@ab-katrinedal.dk (Niels Jørgen 
Kruse) said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> However if I type 11/2 without a space Unison doesn't give me what I
>> anticipated when I used a space, ? (which you might or might not see as
>> a fraction given whatever Usenet client you are using).
> 
> No, I don't because MacSOUP is MacRoman based and that fraction
> character is the most common problem.

As I can see in your reply where the "½" was rendered by MacSOUP as a "?".

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
6/7/2014 5:02:23 PM
Hi Michelle,

On 2014-06-07 13:44:14 +0000, Michelle Steiner said:
> It's a (barely) adequate newsreader; Alan (and I, and a lot of other
> people) would like to have a *good* newsreader.

good. Your perfectly valid view. I accept that and it's perfectly fine 
with me, both NewsTap and your view. :-)

What I just can't stand is guys like Alan just whining around about 
things he doesn't even have to bother with if these things do not 
comply with his personal taste. That was my basic message to Alan, 
which he obviously didn't get...

Anyway, I'll leave it at that.
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/7/2014 5:05:46 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> wrote:

> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc
> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> > 
> > > Fantastic graphical thread tree,
> > 
> > As I said elsewhere, I find this to be a poor way to represent message
> > relationships spatially.
> 
> I will admit, after a decade or two of using first YA Newswatcher then
> Thoth, I can't see how else you can do it. Click on the arrow beside
> the subject, and see the entire flow of the thread. The ability to
> avoid silly digressions is a must. You have my pledge, though, so I'm
> willing to see what you have planned.

When people refer to MacSOUP’s graphical tree, they mean this:

<http://earthlingsoft.net/ssp/blog/graphics/MacSOUPThreadbaum.gif>

or possibly it’s now more like how NewsTap does it:

<http://st2.apps.su/imgs/29/24/10/356/mzl.zkgulsle.480x480-75.jpg>

I’m using NSOutlineView, which is the common table-with-arrows display
that is what you’re likely very used to.  I could also see supporting a
tree map or other ways to display a graphical hierarchy, but the “nodes”
model just isn’t abstract enough for my tastes.  For example:

A -> B -> C
       |
       -> D

can result in a lot of debate over what the “right” thing to do is when
article B is killed or otherwise unavailable.
 
> Pulling every message is going to eat into bandwidth, especially for
> groups I haven't opened in awhile. Headers only, please, as with most
> groups I'm not going to be reading most posts so don't want them
> downloaded completely.

That’s certainly the default for now, because I know many people (including
me) do the same thing.  But there are also a fair number who would want to
have everything local when they know the network might be iffy (e.g., for
reading on the subway).  Programmatically, there is no big difference.

> As for deleting posts, an option to "empty the trash" whenever a group
> window is closed would be nice. The next time I open a group I only
> want to see unread messages, so I don't have search for them mixed in
> with the already read stuff.

And this gets into some of the tricky bits of threading.  What if an
article was crossposted, read in another group, but a followup only posted
to the current group?  Don’t show the parent?  Show it as read?  There are
many messy edge conditions when it comes to how to best treat the
newsreading experience in a user friendly manner.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 5:23:50 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him) 
> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.

You are being intellectually dishonest.  I don’t want “everyone” to fund
it; I purposely only want the people who *can* see the value to fund it so
that we can get back to having a FREE newsreader available that was
designed *for* the Mac.  And a fair shot at running on iOS, too.

And there is not, nor has there ever been, Usenet as a first-class protocol
on the Mac or any other platform.  Name me a single other newsreader that
has factored out the NNTP bits for reuse.  Show me anywhere I can use curl
on the command like to fetch a news: or nntp: URL.  If it exists, I haven’t
seen it.

*That* is my intent when I talk about bringing Usenet to the Mac.  Unless
you want to continue to appear to be a wing-nut, you have to acknowledge
this reality.  Or keep going on like you are, and filtering becomes a
higher priority.  :-)

> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most people.

No, Twitter and Facebook and Instagram are what do the job fine for most
people.

> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".

I don’t want to be whatever you think it means to be “right” in this case.
What I want is for a regular Mac user to be able to fire up a free app to
to start chatting away on Usenet and have it work like they would expect it
to.  I’d drop what I’m doing if anyone else had managed that simple task.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 5:41:04 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> I think Doc has set the goal 
> much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop the 
> signal.

I set it at a realistic, perhaps even generous, cost for doing this sort of
software development.  If anyone else is willing to do better for less, the
competition is welcome.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 5:44:48 PM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <bvggb0FoipmU1@mid.individual.net>, Paul F�rster
> <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Alan,
> > 
> > On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> > > I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from
> > > the development of a good newsreader.
> > 
> > NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356
> > 
> > There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free
> > version of both. I paid the little fee and don't regret it. It's very
> > powerful. It's worth the small amount.
> 
> It's a (barely) adequate newsreader; Alan (and I, and a lot of other
> people) would like to have a *good* newsreader.

I don't think _too_ badly of NewsTap. It was better than Unison v1! :-D
But pretty horrible compared to MacSOUP.

I'd love to see 'MacSOUP for iOS', as NewsTap is barely adequate, and
nothing more.

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/7/2014 5:45:50 PM
Paul F�rster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:

> what about checking it [NewsTap] out for yourself before critisizing?

My thoughts on MacSOUP as regards the OP's disdain and exceedingly early
throwing in the towel :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/7/2014 5:45:51 PM
On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 20:24:08 -0400, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:35 -0400, Alan Browne 
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to 
>>> him) there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>>
>>> Of course that is plain BS.
>>>
>>> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most 
>>> people.
>>
>> Not for people used to using a good newsreader.
>
> I've used many and TB fills my needs more than adequately.  I hesitate 
> to imagine how much I'd have to use usenet for me to believe TB to be 
> not good.

It's not about how much you use Usenet but how efficiently your 
newsreader lets you use Usenet. MT-NW was very efficient, TB was not 
(I've tried about five different versions over the years).  Currently I 
am using slrn and am in particular delighted by how scoring works with 
it- I see almost 0 spam messages with a handful of scoring rules.


>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or 
>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>
>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>
> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception 
> rather than truth, I'd be very wary.
>
> Claim 1 that he makes:
> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>
> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various 
> clients available and they do more that enough.

The available newreaders don't do it to his satisfaction, nor for that 
matter to mine.  While slrn is OK, it is Terminal based, doesn't have 
its own text editor and you have to learn to edit configuration files.  
I've got that tweaked right now to my satisfaction so I don't have to 
spend time editing those for the forseeable future.  But a good 
newsreader aimed at reading the news (rather than looking for binaries 
of various types distributed through newsgroups) and having 
conversations is lacking on the Mac.  There are some outdated 
newsreaders that are years behind the times and as far as I can tell 
many of those run more by luck than by meaningful ongoing development.

> Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP 
> went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening 
> sentence which I'll quote here:
>
>      I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been working ...
>
> yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd 
> paragraph (quoted again):
>
>      I've done my best...
>
> So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other 
> para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?

That's whatcha got?  Seriously?  And this is evidence of fraud, 
deception and sociopathy?  Seems like a lot of judgment hangning from a 
tiny thread.


>> The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal 
>> much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop 
>> the signal.
>
> If he reaches that goal then I hope he delivers for those who pony up. 
> The goal he set is more along the lines of someone developing a bit of 
> hardware and where some tooling or material orders are needed which is 
> usually how these campaigns go.

I've never met Doc but he is a few miles from where I live.  Thinking 
about programmer salaries around here, he's scheduled about 750 hours of 
development time.  If he's got bills to pay and mouths to feed, I guess 
that doesn't seem unreasonable to me if it takes that much time to 
develop the code, debug it and get it up to distribution quality.  I 
don't want to be one of those interwebs folks who seems to believe that 
if someone else is making a decent living they must be ripping me off.  
I get a kick out of people bitching about $1.99 iOS apps as being "too 
expensive."

However given the relative handful of people still using Usenet, even 
with the existence of Google Groups, I have great doubt that there is 
enough interest to hit the $20,000 mark and that the exercise will not 
succeed because of that.

> (Yes I have pledged to such in the past and I got a widget out of it 
> at half the retail price).

Sometimes it works.
0
Tim
6/7/2014 5:47:10 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-07, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> >
> > With 25 days to go and only $380 pledged, he's not going to make that
> > goal of twenty grand, and that's a shame.
> 
> It probably needs to be announced to a much larger audience to see that
> kind of community action.

It may also just be too late for Usenet.  People have become too used to
selling themselves to advertisers for the simple ability to talk to each
other.

Still, I have high hopes that either the right crowd will see the value,
or some entity with a modest budget and a great idea will.  There’s plenty
of time for that to happen.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 5:50:26 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
> 
> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.

Before Alan starts screaming “Benghazi” some more, here’s the reality.
Signal had been doing substitutions from the beginning, but I had to
*manually* turn it off in the Edit menu for every message when I was only
doing 7 bit properly.  Sometimes I forgot, or failed to catch and correct
every damn one.  And so you got a mixed bag for a while.  As the ample
evidence shows, I have been making as many fixes as possible on my end to
make things more readable for people who have older software, to the extent
that I can do so while writing modern Mac software.

But I’m sure none of this will convince Alan.  Conspiracy!  False Flag!


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 6:04:19 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the=20
> first line, but not in the 2nd para?

It’s almost as if I noticed it was doing substitutions after I had begun my
message and turned off the feature, but failed to go back and correct every
single one.  Couldn’t so simple . . .

You’ll also note I’m leaving in the quoted-printable encoding for your
message.  I’m not up to something nefarious when I *don’t* include it.  And
if you notice that not all my line breaks are at a uniform 75 characters
(or anything else), there is also a simple reason for that, too.  But I’ll
leave you to spin some fanciful tale of evil doing.

> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from=20
> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question=20
> should perhaps focus his effort there.

If you believe there is any significant difference from a development
perspective, you need to learn more about Cocoa development.  My focus is
on the Mac for now simply because (in addition to my not being satisfied
with any existing newsreader) it is smarter to focus on a single platform
to get started with the whole thing, and the doing everything on the Mac
first streamlines the process.  If you really want something better for
iOS than what NewsTap offers, I encourage you to send off a large sum of
money to the Signal campaign (since it hasn’t been mentioned it a bit:
<http://signal.subsume.com>) so that we can reach the $50K goal and ramp
up the 2.0 features.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 6:20:36 PM
In article <slrnlp4lr5.dfr.timmcn@sugaree.local>, Tim McNamara
<timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:36 -0400, Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> 
> wrote:
> > In article <060620141812146772%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater 
> ><timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc 
> >> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> >> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> >> 
> >> > > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
> >> > 
> >> > I1m doing that now, and you don1t (strictly) want it.  References 
> >> > are a very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages 
> >> > themselves are likely to be deleted once read, but because the 
> >> > header1s length limitations can present problems.
> >> 
> >> What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message 
> >> its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again, 
> >> or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it 
> >> as unread and spacebar through for a second time.
> >
> > Yes. The messages stay until you close the newsgroup window, at which 
> > point yes they're gone. Opening the newsgroup again will just give you 
> > the unread messages. If they vanish as soon as you move to the next 
> > message, you could never go back and post a reply once you've seen 
> > what everyone else has already said.
> 
> That wasn't true with MT-NW at least and probably isn't true with many 
> other newsreaders.  As long as the messages were still spooled on the 
> NNTP servers, MT-NW and its kin could get them even if the user had 
> marked them as read and quit, logged out, rebooted, etc.  Marking as 
> read is not the same as deleting off the server like it is with POP 
> based e-mail; it's more like IMAP.

Yes, they're on the server, but Thoth ignores them so for the user
they're as good as deleted. If you want to read old posts, you can mark
the group unread, or work backwards from a message by using the "open
last reference" or "open all references" menu commands, which will give
you some or all of the current thread.

-- 
Chris Mack       "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan'             - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
0
Invid
6/7/2014 6:23:04 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <bvggb0FoipmU1@mid.individual.net>, Paul Förster
> <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:
> 
> > There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free 
> > version of both. I paid the little fee and don't regret it. It's very 
> > powerful. It's worth the small amount.
> 
> It's a (barely) adequate newsreader; Alan (and I, and a lot of other
> people) would like to have a *good* newsreader.

I also purchased NewsTap.  I’m not going to complain too much about it
because I’m not sure how many of the shortcomings are inherent to iOS (or
at least how they decided to present things on a small screen).  But,
suffice it to say, had it been good enough for my needs, I would have just
switched to using that instead of either firing up MT-NW on an old Mac or,
now, starting to write Signal.  I think there *is* a way to bring something
as vast as Usenet to a device that fits in your pocket, but it’s going to
take a bit more effort than what people seem to be willing to pay.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 6:27:56 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 11:58 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception rather
>>>>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>>>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>>>>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that the
>>>>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You seem to
>>>>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but we all
>>>>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factual
>>>>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take such a
>>>>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketing
>>>>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much more
>>>>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final product
>>>>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good for you.
>>>>
>>>> What's good for me?
>>>>
>>>>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>>>>
>>>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>>>
>>> Show me they weren't.
>>
>> You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Show the proof, or
>> recant. Simple.
>
> I showed the evidence.   Viewing the source doesn't show me much other than:
>
>       "I’ve mentioned here before that I’ve been..."
>
> and
>
>       "I've done my best to ..."

I think you don't have a good understanding of the meaning of the word
"evidence". You asserted that Doc added the apostrophe characters in an
apparent attempt to deceive. The fact that some apostrophe characters
are ASCII and others are Unicode is not evidence that the characters
were inserted manually, nor that they were added nefariously. You have
not proven your assertion. Until you do provide evidence of your
assertion, your assertion is assumed to be false.

>>> It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the other
>>> with the same punctuation.
>>
>> Strange? I think not. It was likely both created and sent with
>> alpha-quality software, and it's quite possible at some point during
>> authoring something prevented Cocoa from doing its normal substitution.
>
> Possible, huh?

Absolutely.

>>> All you great experts should tell me why that is so.
>>
>> I can't explain why you find this so strange.
>
> Let's try this:   "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>
> This is filler.  This is more filler.  Fill.  Fill.
> Intentionally filled. Filler.  More filler.  Full of filller.
> Fill. Fill.  Fill.  FULL!
>
> Let's try again:  "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>
> Now let's see if that posts the same way twice.

You seem to be indicating that you are unable or unwilling to imagine
that an alpha-quality piece of software might have a bug that prevents
character substitution in certain situations.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 8:27:28 PM
In article <070620141423046383%invid@loclanet.com>, Invid Fan
<invid@loclanet.com> wrote:

> In article <slrnlp4lr5.dfr.timmcn@sugaree.local>, Tim McNamara
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:36 -0400, Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> 
> > wrote:
> > > In article <060620141812146772%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater 
> > ><timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc 
> > >> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > >> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> > >> 
> > >> > > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
> > >> > 
> > >> > I1m doing that now, and you don1t (strictly) want it.  References 
> > >> > are a very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages 
> > >> > themselves are likely to be deleted once read, but because the 
> > >> > header1s length limitations can present problems.
> > >> 
> > >> What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message 
> > >> its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again, 
> > >> or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it 
> > >> as unread and spacebar through for a second time.
> > >
> > > Yes. The messages stay until you close the newsgroup window, at which 
> > > point yes they're gone. Opening the newsgroup again will just give you 
> > > the unread messages. If they vanish as soon as you move to the next 
> > > message, you could never go back and post a reply once you've seen 
> > > what everyone else has already said.
> > 
> > That wasn't true with MT-NW at least and probably isn't true with many 
> > other newsreaders.  As long as the messages were still spooled on the 
> > NNTP servers, MT-NW and its kin could get them even if the user had 
> > marked them as read and quit, logged out, rebooted, etc.  Marking as 
> > read is not the same as deleting off the server like it is with POP 
> > based e-mail; it's more like IMAP.
> 
> Yes, they're on the server, but Thoth ignores them so for the user
> they're as good as deleted.

Rubbish. They're still there and you can find them if you want to. Why
would I expect a newsreader to list read messages once I've looked at
them and moved on. I want to know and see what is newly posted in some
group or other.

People are taking usenet far too seriously. By contrast I may assert X
today and not-X tomorrow.

> If you want to read old posts, you can mark
> the group unread, or work backwards from a message by using the "open
> last reference" or "open all references" menu commands, which will give
> you some or all of the current thread.

Or you can search for them. Select a group and hit cmd-minus. That
allows searching by eight different things such as Subject, From, Date,
etc.

-- 
"If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling 
that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't 
ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid
tripping your hair-trigger insecurities."                  - D M Procida, UCSM
0
Tim
6/7/2014 8:29:14 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 12:13 , Alan Browne wrote:
>> On 2014.06.07, 11:58 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't explain why you find this so strange.
>>
>> Let's try this:   "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>>
>> This is filler.  This is more filler.  Fill.  Fill.
>> Intentionally filled. Filler.  More filler.  Full of filller.
>> Fill. Fill.  Fill.  FULL!
>>
>> Let's try again:  "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>>
>> Now let's see if that posts the same way twice.
>
> Yep.

And the only thing you have proven by that is that you are unable to
reproduce the problem on your own computer, which we know is absent of
the software used to create the OP. Naturally, if the cause of the
problem is a bug in said software, which is absent on your computer,
then you won't be able to reproduce the issue. In other words, you have
proven nothing.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 8:29:57 PM
On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 12:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> On 2014.06.07, 10:16 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The strange behaviour in that case would be why did it screw up the
>>>>> first line, but not in the 2nd para?
>>>>
>>>> No, the strange behavior is all on your shoulders. You have asserted
>>>> that the characters in question were placed in the message nefariously,
>>>
>>> Since they appear in the first para and not in the second para with the
>>> same wording, it does appear curious.  No explanation has spewed forth.
>>
>> Suggesting he did it on purpose for nefarious reasons is not the same as
>> simply being curious.
>
> Then I do hope the OP replies to the curious issue.

After reading your posts about it, I would certainly understand if he
never spoke to you directly again. You haven't exactly been supportive
of his efforts, and have acted in somewhat of an insulting manner, if
you ask me. So why should be bother with you?

>>>> and you have not yet proved your assertion - yet you continue to rail
>>>
>>> So prove to me why they appear so in the first para and not in the second?
>>
>> I don't have to prove anything to you, since it is you who made the
>> assertion to begin with.
>
> Indeed.  Let's have the OP weigh in.

The OP has nothing to do with the words coming out of your mouth, and
it's not up to the OP to disprove an assertion you made. Again, it's
simple: either provide evidence of your assertion, or recant. Until
then, your assertion is assumed to be false.

>> What I can say is what I have already said: he created and posted the
>> message with alpha-quality software; the character in question is the
>> very same one Cocoa applications substitute for smart quotes, and it's
>> possible the reason the replacement failed in the second paragraph is
>> due to a bug in said alpha-quality software.
>
> Is this a known bug?

You're asking me if a piece of software that is in active development
has a known bug regarding Cocoa automatic character replacement. Since
I'm not directly involved with development of this application, there's
no way I can answer that question. Not that it matters. When you make a
claim, the rest of the world isn't suddenly on the hook to prove you
wrong. You made the claim; therefore the onus is on you to back it up
with evidence. Until then your assertion is assumed to be false.

>>>> against it as if it were true. Nice try at skirting the real issue, BTW.
>>>
>>> What real issue?  That he claims there is no Usenet support for Mac?
>>
>> No, that you are being unreasonable.
>
> The hell I am.  There are various Mavericks usenet clients that work 
> fine enough and he's claiming that there is a need to bring usenet back 
> to OS X.

I think most honest, sane, relatively intelligent people would agree
that interpreting a *marketing* *slogan* literally is pretty
unreasonable. 

I'm just curious: Do these marketing slogans also upset you?:

Harley Davidson – American by Birth. Rebel by Choice.
Volkswagen – Think Small.
Porsche – There is no substitute.
Aston Martin – Power, beauty and soul.
Walmart – Save Money. Live Better.
Reebok – I am what I am.
Nike – Just do it.
Adidas – Impossible is Nothing.
Calvin Klein – Between love and madness lies obsession.
Marks & Spencer – The customer is always and completely right!
Levis – Quality never goes out of style.
Tag Heuer – Success. It’s a Mind Game.
3M – Innovation.
IBM – Solutions for a smart planet.
Sony – Make Believe.
IMAX – Think big.
DuPont – The miracles of science.
Energizer – Keeps going and going and going.
PlayStation – Live in your world. Play in ours.
EA – Challenge everything.
Blogger – Push button publishing.
Canon – See what we mean.
Nikon – At the heart of the image.
Kodak – Share moments. Share life.
Olympus – Your vision. Our future.
FedEx – When there is no tomorrow.
Red Cross – The greatest tragedy is indifference.
Disneyland – The happiest place on earth.
Holiday Inn – Pleasing people the world over.
Hallmark – When you care enough to send the very best.
Fortune – For the men incharge of change.
Ajax – Stronger than dirt.
Yellow Pages – Let your fingers do the walking.
McDonalds – I’m loving it.
KFC – Finger lickin’ good.
Burger King – Have it your way.
Coca Cola – Twist the cap to refreshment.
M&Ms – Melts in your mouth, not in your hands.
Nokia – Connecting people.
Vodafone – Make the most of now.
Coca Cola – Open Happiness.
Solex – It’s Style.

>>> That he wants to Toll now and Toil after?
>>
>> Not even sure what you mean by this, but it surely sounds like you are
>> slinging an insult his way to me. Do you have some personal problem with
>> Doc or something?
>
> Not at all.  As I said, beyond the two irritants I have with his 
> presentation of the issue is the large sum he's requesting in advance.

You are holding a grudge against someone who you don't even know for
using a well-known site to ask for money. Sounds like a personal problem
to me.

>>> That the amount requested is unrealistic (as others have noted as well).
>>>
>>>>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from
>>>>> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question
>>>>> should perhaps focus his effort there.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to see what he has in mind for both Mac OS and iOS, personally.
>>>> I see absolutely no need to discourage what could become a good thing
>>>> for the community. You seem to feel differently, which I think is
>>>> strange.
>>>
>>> I just believe, since he has no capital outlay (material or tooling)
>>> that he should toil now and toll later.  Or at least reduce his launch
>>> incentive to scotch and cigars level - say $2500.
>>
>> *shrug* I really don't care what he does with his money or time, other
>> than my own selfish interest in seeing someone create a well-designed
>> reusable NNTP framework and Apple Usenet client.
>
> The point here would be: did you pledge?  If you did, that's great.

Irrelevant.

>>> His current approach is a couple months salary with no guarantee of
>>> delivery of a practical product.  I'm not doubting his ability but as
>>> any southern gentleman with a shotgun will tell you, you feed the
>>> birddogs after the hunt.
>>
>> Not every human on this planet has the same motivations as you.
>
> As I've also said I have funded projects via indiegogo and I have bought 
> the resultant product.  (A hardware widget).  In that case there were 
> motivations for me:
>
> - no such device available at the proposed retail price
> - a general social need for such a product
> - an occasional personal need for such
> - "novelty" entertainment in those occasional events where such could be 
> needed.
> - very compact size
>
> (That said, they didn't deliver on time for my specific need at the 
> time, but it has come into amusing use since).

Irrelevant.

>>> If the market case is as strong as you, he and some others seem to
>>> believe then, again, toil now, toll later.
>>
>> I haven't made any assertions as to the marketability of this potential
>> product.
>
> IIRC you made some comment earlier about letting the market decide. 
> OTOH, I confused you with the OP at one point so ...

That wasn't me; and stating "the market will decide" is hardly an
assertion that "the market case is strong" as you suggest above. I never
made that assertion; others may have - take it up with them.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/7/2014 8:53:10 PM
In message <bvggb0FoipmU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi Alan,

> On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from 
>> the development of a good newsreader.

> NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356

He said a GOOD newsreader.

-- 
'Vetinari isn't mad.' 'Depends how you look at it. No one can be as sane
as he is without being mad.' --Feet of Clay
0
Lewis
6/7/2014 8:59:56 PM
In article <lmsmhq$ilo$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > That said: YOUR reader is the only one that I've encountered that gives 
> > this kind of jibberish.
> 
> But the question remains: who is at fault?  If it is a bug of mine, I can
> fix it if I know the cause.  If it is a bug of MT-NW, you’re out of luck.
> If you’re not seeing it from others, I wonder if it’s because they’re 
> not
> using UTF-8 or if it’s because their newsreader does something different
> (e.g., gives a MIME-Version header).  I’ll look into this further over the
> weekend, when I can come back into this thread with MT-NW and look at some
> of the messages.

You said that you have access to MT-NW. You are the developer that would 
profit from a correct rendering of postings made from your client. 
People will be more inclined to pay for it then.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/7/2014 9:10:48 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Just not realistic in development demand for a thing that he 
> could market as payware/shareware/donation ware afterwards.

Exactly the opposite.  I *am* realistic in thinking that it would be a
waste of my time to put long hours into polishing up an app on the mere
*hope* that charging $10 (or $30 like Unison) would have people lining up
to start using Usenet again.  My thinking remains quite clear and
straightforward:

1. Most Mac users want Mac software
2. Most everyone wants software that costs them nothing
3. OS updates completely killing apps is bad for everyone

Given all that, the most fair thing to do is what I have done.  It isn’t
clear to me why you’ve decided to take such umbrage.

> The case is that there is no pure-of-heart usenet client for Mac and 
> that the Mac community is clamoring for such.  If that is the case then 
> he shouldn't fear toiling now and tolling later.

There is considerable desire, yes, but the real question is whether or not
the economics of that “need” match the real costs of software development.
I’ve laid out what I think is a generous and workable way forward.  I’m
not sure why you think there is more money in a commercial venture, nor am
I sure how much more you think there is.  10x?  100x?

No matter.  If you *truly* believe there is a profit to be had by making a
commercial Usenet client, contact me directly and we can go a whole
different way with this.  All you have to do is pony up the dough.  I
will, of course, readjust my bill rate upwards to reflect market pricing.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/7/2014 9:33:58 PM
On 2014.06.07, 13:47 , Tim McNamara wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 20:24:08 -0400, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:35 -0400, Alan Browne
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to
>>>> him) there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>>>
>>>> Of course that is plain BS.
>>>>
>>>> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most
>>>> people.
>>>
>>> Not for people used to using a good newsreader.
>>
>> I've used many and TB fills my needs more than adequately.  I hesitate=

>> to imagine how much I'd have to use usenet for me to believe TB to be
>> not good.
>
> It's not about how much you use Usenet but how efficiently your
> newsreader lets you use Usenet. MT-NW was very efficient, TB was not
> (I've tried about five different versions over the years).  Currently I=

> am using slrn and am in particular delighted by how scoring works with
> it- I see almost 0 spam messages with a handful of scoring rules.

It's more than efficient enough for my needs.

I launch it.

I visit those groups that are highlighted in bold ('new stuff').

I list by date and read the topics to see what was updated - or by who=20
updated them - there are some people I'll read no matter what the subject=
=2E

I blast my words out and get into tumbles.  I filter the more obnoxious=20
idiots and even the odd thread.

What more would I need.

Note that a few years ago I'd download large files with TB or Unison (or =

XNews for those who remember that OS from Redmond) but I don't download=20
such from usenet anymore.  So TB is more than adequate to do what is=20
essentially fancy texting.

>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>
>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doing it?=

>>
>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deception
>> rather than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>
>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>
>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are various
>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>
> The available newreaders don't do it to his satisfaction, nor for that
> matter to mine.  While slrn is OK, it is Terminal based, doesn't have
> its own text editor and you have to learn to edit configuration files.
> I've got that tweaked right now to my satisfaction so I don't have to
> spend time editing those for the forseeable future.  But a good
> newsreader aimed at reading the news (rather than looking for binaries
> of various types distributed through newsgroups) and having
> conversations is lacking on the Mac.  There are some outdated
> newsreaders that are years behind the times and as far as I can tell
> many of those run more by luck than by meaningful ongoing development.

I guess usenet's not that important to me.  (From the number of posts I=20
make you'd think differently).

>> Claim 2 that he makes in an underhanded way: In his first post the OP
>> went to some length to show how "broken" clients were with his opening=

>> sentence which I'll quote here:
>>
>>       I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=E2=
=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve been working ...
>>
>> yet, in the same post, he manages to post "I've" w/o issue in the 2nd
>> paragraph (quoted again):
>>
>>       I've done my best...
>>
>> So why did it break in his contrived first para, but not in his other
>> para.  Did he forget to insert the widdle bug string?
>
> That's whatcha got?  Seriously?  And this is evidence of fraud,
> deception and sociopathy?  Seems like a lot of judgment hangning from a=

> tiny thread.

It isn't much but it sure twigged my suspicious neurons - coupled to a=20
$20 ask before committing.  Doesn't pass the sniff test.  Or mine anyway.=


>
>>> The market will speak sufficiently.  I think Doc has set the goal
>>> much too high but hopefully I will be wrong and that you can't stop
>>> the signal.
>>
>> If he reaches that goal then I hope he delivers for those who pony up.=

>> The goal he set is more along the lines of someone developing a bit of=

>> hardware and where some tooling or material orders are needed which is=

>> usually how these campaigns go.
>
> I've never met Doc but he is a few miles from where I live.  Thinking
> about programmer salaries around here, he's scheduled about 750 hours o=
f
> development time.  If he's got bills to pay and mouths to feed, I guess=

> that doesn't seem unreasonable to me if it takes that much time to
> develop the code, debug it and get it up to distribution quality.  I
> don't want to be one of those interwebs folks who seems to believe that=

> if someone else is making a decent living they must be ripping me off.
> I get a kick out of people bitching about $1.99 iOS apps as being "too
> expensive."

I don't begrudge any reward to anyone for any work done.  But the level=20
of amount asked by him is more typical of someone who also has to fork=20
out for material or tooling or some such.

Further, if the hew and cry to be saved from all these terrible usenet=20
apps is so loud, then he'd have no trouble covering it after release=20
under a donation/share/license model.


> However given the relative handful of people still using Usenet, even
> with the existence of Google Groups, I have great doubt that there is
> enough interest to hit the $20,000 mark and that the exercise will not
> succeed because of that.
>
>> (Yes I have pledged to such in the past and I got a widget out of it
>> at half the retail price).
>
> Sometimes it works.

Yep.  I almost launched my own a couple years ago but found a lady doing =

almost exactly the same.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 9:49:07 PM
On 2014.06.07, 16:27 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.07, 11:58 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:=

>>>> On 2014.06.07, 10:12 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrot=
e:
>>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 21:57 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wr=
ote:
>>>>>>>> On 2014.06.06, 20:02 , Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation=
 or
>>>>>>>>>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why?  Is he breaking some kind of law doing it the way he's doi=
ng it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course not.  However given that he's presenting with deceptio=
n rather
>>>>>>>> than truth, I'd be very wary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Claim 1 that he makes:
>>>>>>>> 	"Bring Usenet Back to the Mac"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is nothing to bring back.  It never left - there are vario=
us
>>>>>>>> clients available and they do more that enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I interpreted it more as a gimmicky marketing phrase stating that=
 the
>>>>>>> application will give Mac users a great Usenet experience. You se=
em to
>>>>>>> be taking it *quite* literally instead. That's fine, I guess, but=
 we all
>>>>>>> know marketing slogans are typically anything but literal, factua=
l
>>>>>>> statements. So to me, it seems just a little disingenuous to take=
 such a
>>>>>>> harsh stance based on such a literal interpretation of a marketin=
g
>>>>>>> slogan. And in the end, really, who gives a flying fuck? I'm much=
 more
>>>>>>> interested in the actual usability and performance of the final p=
roduct
>>>>>>> than any silly marketing text about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's good for me?
>>>>>
>>>>>> And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>>>>>
>>>>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>>>>
>>>> Show me they weren't.
>>>
>>> You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Show the proof, or=

>>> recant. Simple.
>>
>> I showed the evidence.   Viewing the source doesn't show me much other=
 than:
>>
>>        "I=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve mentioned here before that I=C3=A2=
=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2ve been..."
>>
>> and
>>
>>        "I've done my best to ..."
>
> I think you don't have a good understanding of the meaning of the word
> "evidence". You asserted that Doc added the apostrophe characters in an=


I have a fine understanding of it.  I showed it various times, and above.=


I don't have an explanation for it other than my suspicion of Mr.=20
O'Leary's motives.

OTOH he hasn't come out guns or lawyers blazing to explain it - so I=20
await his explanation.

> apparent attempt to deceive. The fact that some apostrophe characters
> are ASCII and others are Unicode is not evidence that the characters
> were inserted manually, nor that they were added nefariously. You have
> not proven your assertion. Until you do provide evidence of your
> assertion, your assertion is assumed to be false.

Then explain the evidence.  W/o delving into the raw source of the=20
message beyond the source viewer of TB, I can't add more.



>
>>>> It's strange that the "bug" appears in one sentence and not in the o=
ther
>>>> with the same punctuation.
>>>
>>> Strange? I think not. It was likely both created and sent with
>>> alpha-quality software, and it's quite possible at some point during
>>> authoring something prevented Cocoa from doing its normal substitutio=
n.
>>
>> Possible, huh?
>
> Absolutely.
>
>>>> All you great experts should tell me why that is so.
>>>
>>> I can't explain why you find this so strange.
>>
>> Let's try this:   "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>>
>> This is filler.  This is more filler.  Fill.  Fill.
>> Intentionally filled. Filler.  More filler.  Full of filller.
>> Fill. Fill.  Fill.  FULL!
>>
>> Let's try again:  "I've struggled to see what this guy is up to."
>>
>> Now let's see if that posts the same way twice.
>
> You seem to be indicating that you are unable or unwilling to imagine
> that an alpha-quality piece of software might have a bug that prevents
> character substitution in certain situations.

I've written enough bugs to know anything's is possible.  But then you=20
come along saying that "Cocoa done it!  In the Library!  With a knife!"

Well, why did it do it twice and then not at all ...

I'd rather hear Mr. O'Leary on the subject.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/7/2014 9:55:30 PM
In article <lmuj2i$5q3$1@reader2.panix.com>, billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > As you once hinted at, there is a way to attack individual posts to 
> > get them to look righter, under the menu of Edit/Decode as and 
> > choosing UTF-8. It then an look like:
> > 
> > <http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/decodeTacticallyAsUTF-8.png>
> > 
> > The bug or the lack in MT-NW is that you can't set this in clay, it 
> > seems unable to keep such a setting strategically.
> 
> It's also not rendering the sig text correctly, although that'd be
> asking a lot from a program as all as MT-NW seems to be.  Here's what
> you should see (stand on your head to read it if need be, heh) -
> 
 
No need for that (apart from that I have no head), see in preview, 
flip vertical and then again horizontal and things should start 
looking up correctly for you humans. 


> http://MIX.COM/UTF-8.png
> 
> Billy Y..

Your sig is broken too, and that is something no one else's newsreader 
can fix. Put the -- before your name on a line above.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/7/2014 11:41:12 PM
In article <070620142129140045%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater
<timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:

> In article <070620141423046383%invid@loclanet.com>, Invid Fan
> <invid@loclanet.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <slrnlp4lr5.dfr.timmcn@sugaree.local>, Tim McNamara
> > <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Fri, 06 Jun 2014 16:47:36 -0400, Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > In article <060620141812146772%timstreater@greenbee.net>, Tim Streater 
> > > ><timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> In article <lmss00$tj8$2@dont-email.me>, Doc 
> > > >> <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> > > >> 
> > > >> > For your reference, records indicate that 
> > > >> > jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz (Jamie Kahn Genet) wrote:
> > > >> 
> > > >> > > true references-based threading in both Usenet and email threads,
> > > >> > 
> > > >> > I1m doing that now, and you don1t (strictly) want it.  References 
> > > >> > are a very fleeting thing on Usenet.  Not just because the messages 
> > > >> > themselves are likely to be deleted once read, but because the 
> > > >> > header1s length limitations can present problems.
> > > >> 
> > > >> What do you mean by "deleted"? In MT-NW and Thoth, f I read a message 
> > > >> its marked as read, which is all I need. I may want to read it again, 
> > > >> or I may want to read the whole thread again, so typically I mark it 
> > > >> as unread and spacebar through for a second time.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. The messages stay until you close the newsgroup window, at which 
> > > > point yes they're gone. Opening the newsgroup again will just give you 
> > > > the unread messages. If they vanish as soon as you move to the next 
> > > > message, you could never go back and post a reply once you've seen 
> > > > what everyone else has already said.
> > > 
> > > That wasn't true with MT-NW at least and probably isn't true with many 
> > > other newsreaders.  As long as the messages were still spooled on the 
> > > NNTP servers, MT-NW and its kin could get them even if the user had 
> > > marked them as read and quit, logged out, rebooted, etc.  Marking as 
> > > read is not the same as deleting off the server like it is with POP 
> > > based e-mail; it's more like IMAP.
> > 
> > Yes, they're on the server, but Thoth ignores them so for the user
> > they're as good as deleted.
> 
> Rubbish. They're still there and you can find them if you want to. Why
> would I expect a newsreader to list read messages once I've looked at
> them and moved on. I want to know and see what is newly posted in some
> group or other.
> 
> People are taking usenet far too seriously. By contrast I may assert X
> today and not-X tomorrow.
> 
What am I taking seriously? I'm simply saying how the process looks to
a user, me. If I can't see a message, I consider it deleted. Yes, it is
still on the server, because the server is in no way under my control.
So far as I'm concerned those messages will be there forever.

> > If you want to read old posts, you can mark
> > the group unread, or work backwards from a message by using the "open
> > last reference" or "open all references" menu commands, which will give
> > you some or all of the current thread.
> 
> Or you can search for them. Select a group and hit cmd-minus. That
> allows searching by eight different things such as Subject, From, Date,
> etc.

There has never been a point where I've ever wanted to do that, so
didn't know the option existed.

-- 
Chris Mack       "If we show any weakness, the monsters will get cocky!"
'Invid Fan'             - 'Yokai Monsters Along With Ghosts'
0
Invid
6/8/2014 12:27:40 AM
In article <bvggb0FoipmU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Paul F�rster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> On 2014-06-07 11:59:35 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> > I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from 
> > the development of a good newsreader.
> 
> NewsTap, see: https://itunes.apple.com/app/id292410356
> 
> There's one for the iPhone and one for the iPad. There's even a free 
> version of both. 

The free version is just to take a look how it works on just one 
usenet group. It is made by the man who made iCab and I have a lot of 
respect for him. I have the free version and it partly does what I 
want but I am new to the software. 

I will likely buy it (there's hardly much else!) but I need to see 
better how it works. I know it is optimised for offline and that is 
not really what I want but I would like to set it up to be at least 
analogous to my MT on this Macbook in respect to these things:

At first, only for subjects to show where there are posts I have not 
read. With a number to show how many posts. 

Then when subject is clicked, to show the oldest post that I have not 
read.

A way to definitely see if a refresh has been done manually.

To clear all posts whenever I want and for them not to appear again 
next time I open the app. 

There be a way to recover posts by search.

I suspect some of these things are doable, but not sure if all?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 12:30:09 AM
In article <bvgni1Fq207U1@mid.individual.net>,
 Paul F�rster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:

> Hi Alan,
> 
> On 2014-06-07 14:34:21 +0000, Alan Browne said:
> > I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in the 
> > iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized.  For that reason I 
> > mentioned that the OP might be induced to focus there.
> 
> what about checking it out for yourself before critisizing?
> 
> As for Signal, I don't see your point. If you don't like it, or the 
> idea, or the amount, or whatever, then don't support it. It's just that 
> easy. If the OP manages to get the money he wants/needs, then good for 
> him. What the heck is the problem there?

It is a very human problem. Browne is *irritated* by what is proposed 
and he has every right to air his irritations. That right is confirmed 
every time Jolly Old Rog quotes him - unnecessarily at such length as 
far as anyone else is concerned - to try to rebut his concerns.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 12:36:10 AM
In article <070620140636421569%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <fredp151-F664C7.00430507062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > My personal opinion is that all the newsreaders I've tried in Mavericks 
> > are shit.  Tried 'em all, and each had something that was a deal breaker.
> > 
> > Toth was about the best of them (prolly because it was so much like MT - 
> > but Toth isn't available anymore.)
> > 
> > I downgraded back to Mt. Lion for this reason.
> 
> Is usenet *that* important to you?

More important than life itself... ;-)

In reality, more important than what Mavericks was delivering, anyway.  
I still run Mavericks on a second (actually, sixth) drive.  

What was new in Mavericks just wasn't compelling... in fact, I didn't 
see much change, and what I did see annoyed me.

I really hated that they removed the ability to double-click a folder 
and have it open in a new window.  (It used to be a preference, but now 
it involves a key combination). It's really minor for most people - but 
I spend 4-5 hours a day in work on my machine, and another couple out of 
work.

My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I 
run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows 
XP and Windows 7.  I even keep a G3 laptop when I need to run a classic 
app like Fontographer.

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/8/2014 3:40:19 AM
In article <NoqdnXASs6Jdtg7OnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
> 
> Show me they weren't.

That's a classic leading (loaded) assertion... a la "Do you still beat 
your wife?"

How do you prove something DIDN'T happen?

You make the accusation, YOU have the burden of proof.

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/8/2014 3:45:07 AM
On 2014-06-08, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In article <bvgni1Fq207U1@mid.individual.net>,
>  Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan,
>> 
>> On 2014-06-07 14:34:21 +0000, Alan Browne said:
>> > I haven't used it but it seems every time it is mentioned in the 
>> > iphone/ipad groups it's roundly criticized.  For that reason I 
>> > mentioned that the OP might be induced to focus there.
>> 
>> what about checking it out for yourself before critisizing?
>> 
>> As for Signal, I don't see your point. If you don't like it, or the 
>> idea, or the amount, or whatever, then don't support it. It's just that 
>> easy. If the OP manages to get the money he wants/needs, then good for 
>> him. What the heck is the problem there?
>
> It is a very human problem. Browne is *irritated* by what is proposed 
> and he has every right to air his irritations. 

Just as anyone else has a right to respond to his rants.

> That right is confirmed every time Jolly Old Rog quotes him

Merely quoting someone confirms their right to bitch? Not sure I follow
that logic; but whatever floats your little leaf.

> - unnecessarily at such length as 
> far as anyone else is concerned - to try to rebut his concerns.

He's being disingenuous and rather rude, as far as I'm concerned. And
he's demonstrating either willful ignorance, or an incapability to
understand and acknowledge basic software development realities, instead
choosing go so far as to accuse someone he has likely never met or
gotten to know well of being dishonest. I have the right to object to
that. And your claim that my posts are unnecessary is the polar opposite
of your statement that Browne has the right to air his irritations.
Apparently you would like to apply a double standard here. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/8/2014 3:55:27 AM
In article <lmveq4$3fd$1@dont-email.me>, Darrin "Doc" O'Leary
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > 
> > $20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is needed.
> 
> $20K is the economic reality.  If you don't agree, you're welcome to pay
> someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how much cheaper
> it ends up being.

It's only an "economic reality" if it's the way you making your
livelihood ... even then it's debateable since far too many people
charge far too much, which has a flow-on effect and creates the
greed-circle called "infaltion". 

If it's simply a hobby project you're doing in your spare time, then
it's not even remotely an "economic reality", more like common
greediness, especially if the final product is free and if those
generous / stupid enough to donate won't be getting anything everybody
else gets anyway. Of course if the product never appears, then it's
simply a scam.

The more sensible option is simply to release the application as
freeware or donationware.
0
Your
6/8/2014 4:05:55 AM
In article <bvi55fF48ubU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

....
 
> Merely quoting someone confirms their right to bitch? Not sure I follow
> that logic; but whatever floats your little leaf.
> 
> > - unnecessarily at such length as 
> > far as anyone else is concerned - to try to rebut his concerns.
>

You do not need to quote him at such length. There is no other logic 
involved that need concern you.


> ... your claim that my posts are unnecessary is the polar opposite
> of your statement that Browne has the right to air his irritations.
> Apparently you would like to apply a double standard here.

Slow down. No one is saying your posts are unnecessary. There is no 
double standard.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 4:25:44 AM
On 2014-06-08, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In article <bvi55fF48ubU1@mid.individual.net>,
>  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>  
>> Merely quoting someone confirms their right to bitch? Not sure I follow
>> that logic; but whatever floats your little leaf.
>> 
>> > - unnecessarily at such length as 
>> > far as anyone else is concerned - to try to rebut his concerns.
>
> You do not need to quote him at such length. There is no other logic 
> involved that need concern you.
>
>> ... your claim that my posts are unnecessary is the polar opposite
>> of your statement that Browne has the right to air his irritations.
>> Apparently you would like to apply a double standard here.
>
> Slow down. No one is saying your posts are unnecessary. There is no 
> double standard.

My bad, I misunderstood. You're right. I could trim more - I get lazy
sometimes. I'll try to do better. I do respect others who have respect
for good etiquette.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/8/2014 4:38:39 AM
On 2014-06-07, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-06, Paul Magnussen <magiconinc@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > In a newsgroup will an HTML character entity reference work?  Lets
>> > try: 1&frac12;
>> 
>> That has more to do with the news client you are using than the
>> capabilities of the Usenet medium.
>
> And also the declared Content-Type.  It was sent as text/plain, so
> even if a newsreader did support HTML it would likely not show the
> fraction.

Right, of course.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/8/2014 4:45:29 AM
On 2014-06-07, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2014-06-07, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> > And what about the fake bug farts he posted?
>> 
>> You'll need to back up your assertion that they were faked.
>
> Before Alan starts screaming “Benghazi” some more, here’s the reality.
> Signal had been doing substitutions from the beginning, but I had to
> *manually* turn it off in the Edit menu for every message when I was only
> doing 7 bit properly.  Sometimes I forgot, or failed to catch and correct
> every damn one.  And so you got a mixed bag for a while.  As the ample
> evidence shows, I have been making as many fixes as possible on my end to
> make things more readable for people who have older software, to the extent
> that I can do so while writing modern Mac software.

That's a perfectly natural type of situation you often encounter while
actively developing new code, as any experienced software developer can
attest. Thanks for confirming.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/8/2014 4:49:27 AM
On 2014-06-07, Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> I'm glad you brought up iOS - that is something that COULD benefit from=20
>> the development of a good newsreader.  So the gentleman in question=20
>> should perhaps focus his effort there.
>
> If you believe there is any significant difference from a development
> perspective, you need to learn more about Cocoa development.

And you've already mentioned a reusable NNTP framework.  Obviously that
could be shared between an iOS app and a Mac app. And other portions of
code can also be shared. 

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
6/8/2014 4:52:39 AM
In article <lmvire$u2h$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> What I want is for a regular Mac user to be able to fire up a free app to
> to start chatting away on Usenet and have it work like they would expect it
> to.  I’d drop what I’m doing if anyone else had managed that simple task.

The problem, of course, as you might appreciate, is that this is not a 
simple task. There is no practical set of criteria that will fulfil 
this aim. What Mac users want is too diverse. Your task then becomes 
too big.

A limited app that does a few things well that many people will like 
and even more won't might be the way to go. Trust your own judgment of 
how you would like to operate on usenet and forget everyone else. Work 
with a rational and simple scheme and be prepared to not have many 
like it. You might be surprised how good that can come to be seen and 
how many converts it can bring. 

What would be the simplest easiest to use newsreader that *you* would 
want for yourself? Would it be an easier thing to make and cost less? 

I am just raising some thoughts, not *really* telling you what to do. 
Good for you to do anything in this business.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 4:53:54 AM
In article <070620141423046383%invid@loclanet.com>, Invid Fan
<invid@loclanet.com> wrote:

> Yes, they're on the server, but Thoth ignores them so for the user
> they're as good as deleted. If you want to read old posts, you can mark
> the group unread, or work backwards from a message by using the "open
> last reference" or "open all references" menu commands, which will give
> you some or all of the current thread.

Or you option-double-click on the newsgroup and specify how many recent
messages to download (the default is 500, but that's easily changed). 
One thing in MTNW that's not in Thoth is that you can also specify how
far back in time, instead of number of messages, to go.
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 4:59:09 AM
In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:

> My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I 
> run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows 
> XP and Windows 7. 

I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
version, nor any other OS.
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 5:02:09 AM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I
> > run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows
> > XP and Windows 7. 
> 
> I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
> version, nor any other OS.

I count four apps just in my Dock that no longer work past OS X
10.6.8...
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/8/2014 5:38:11 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> When people refer to MacSOUP's graphical tree, they mean this:
> 
> <http://earthlingsoft.net/ssp/blog/graphics/MacSOUPThreadbaum.gif>

And when one mouses over the post radio buttons in the thread tree, you
see the author bottom left. This makes it very easy to navigate, and
understand the relationship between posts and their replies :-)
-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/8/2014 5:38:12 AM
In article <1lmxn8a.13mr6wz19s1j26N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> >
> > In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I
> > > run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows
> > > XP and Windows 7. 
> > 
> > I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
> > version, nor any other OS.
> 
> I count four apps just in my Dock that no longer work past OS X
> 10.6.8...

There are applications I use that only run under Mac OS 9.  :-)
(Even excluding old games.)
0
Your
6/8/2014 6:03:15 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> Name me a single other newsreader that has factored out the
> NNTP bits for reuse.

Why would anyone want to do this?

> Show me anywhere I can use curl on the command like to fetch
> a news: or nntp: URL.

Again, why would anyone want to do this?

> If it exists, I haven't seen it.

lynx news:'lmvire$u2h$1@dont-email.me' works.

curl is a tool to transfer data from or to a server, using one of the
supported protocols (DICT, FILE, FTP, FTPS, GOPHER, HTTP, HTTPS, IMAP,
IMAPS, LDAP, LDAPS, POP3, POP3S, RTMP, RTSP, SCP, SFTP, SMTP, SMTPS,
TELNET and TFTP).

Do you see news or nntp in the above list?  I didn't think so.

It's a piece of cake with, for example, perl (794 bytes in 56 lines),
though.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/8/2014 6:30:42 AM
Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> And this gets into some of the tricky bits of threading.  What if an
> article was crossposted, read in another group, but a followup only posted
> to the current group?  Don't show the parent?  Show it as read?  There are
> many messy edge conditions when it comes to how to best treat the
> newsreading experience in a user friendly manner.

This is but one area where your imagined digust with all the work
everyone else has done is going to cost you, big time.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/8/2014 6:36:54 AM
Invid Fan <invid@loclanet.com> wrote:

> Yes, they're on the server, but Thoth ignores them so for the user
> they're as good as deleted. If you want to read old posts, you can mark
> the group unread, or work backwards from a message by using the "open
> last reference" or "open all references" menu commands, which will give
> you some or all of the current thread.

Any even half-way decent newsreader has the ability to toggle between
displaying only unseen articles and everything on the server (or cache).

Billy "With one keystroke" Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/8/2014 6:42:54 AM
In article <lmveq4$3fd$1@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> > Then get cracking.
> 
> I already got cracking.  That’s the point of me demoing a prototype for the
> campaign.  A separate framework already exists and works fairly well, but I
> would still want to to *a lot* of tweaking before releasing it (especially
> cleaning up the API for public consumption).
> 
> > Seriously - where the Apple world needs a usenet client is for iOS.
> 
> Well, unless funding picks up dramatically, they’re not going to get it
> from me.  It seems the economics of the “need” just isn’t in line with the
> effort involved.  Either a lot more people need to get interested in Usenet
> as a social network, or some entity with funding needs to see how it can be
> leveraged for a particular goal.  And, in the grand scheme of things, the
> $20K or $50K that it would take is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to
> some of the projects I’ve worked on that cost much more and achieved so
> much less.
> 
> > Your request for funding isn't free either.
> 
> It’s free in that the result will be free to everyone, and possibly even
> free to the extent of putting the code in the public domain, and that is
> *hugely* important when you want to be able to introduce new people to
> Usenet.  That’s a far better deal than having *everyone* pay, like Unison
> does.  Even a non-commercial effort like mine has a non-zero cost.
> 
> > $20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is needed.
> 
> $20K is the economic reality.  If you don’t agree, you’re welcome to pay
> someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how much cheaper
> it ends up being.

Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK. Now 
put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing 
something new or are better than existing offerings people outside your 
immediate family might pay for a license to use it!

It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There are 
other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 6:48:20 AM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> A limited app that does a few things well that many people will like 
> and even more won't might be the way to go. Trust your own judgment of 
> how you would like to operate on usenet and forget everyone else. Work 
> with a rational and simple scheme and be prepared to not have many 
> like it. You might be surprised how good that can come to be seen and 
> how many converts it can bring. 

The best software is written by people who actually use it.

> What would be the simplest easiest to use newsreader that *you* would 
> want for yourself? Would it be an easier thing to make and cost less? 

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/8/2014 6:58:42 AM
In article <ln10le$llf$3@reader2.panix.com>, billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> Any even half-way decent newsreader has the ability to toggle between
> displaying only unseen articles and everything on the server (or cache).

Everything on the server? Toggle? This is not a requirement for a 
half-decent newsreader.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 8:26:48 AM
In article <ln11j2$llf$4@reader2.panix.com>, billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> 
> > A limited app that does a few things well that many people will like 
> > and even more won't might be the way to go. Trust your own judgment of 
> > how you would like to operate on usenet and forget everyone else. Work 
> > with a rational and simple scheme and be prepared to not have many 
> > like it. You might be surprised how good that can come to be seen and 
> > how many converts it can bring. 
> 
> The best software is written by people who actually use it.
>

I don't know if this is true, but if people write software that they 
intend to use, and go on to use, and if a crowd, however small, gather 
around to use it in preference to anything else, that is a good start, 
even a good end.

One of the most important things in good software that people will get 
behind and swear by is ease of use, where information is easily 
evident. 

Take the lovely neat window of the groups in MT-NW, just the name in 
the title bar, the number of groups on the server you are using, your 
subscribed-to-groups in a simple list with neat little numerals next 
to them to say how many posts are unread. Command Y will refresh and 
get more posts if any are there to get. 

The little numerals then change. You can see it trying to get posts 
because ? appears in place of the numerals (if there are any), this 
brief appearance and the ? moving down the groups tells the user what 
is happening. How many softwares leave users a bit puzzled if anything 
is actually happening? These simple things are what make for great 
software. Simple unassuming things.

If you want to see any posts, you just click on a group and a window 
comes up with a list of poster/subject/time, each on a line. This is 
nice, it is simple. It is staged, you can there and then mark as read 
(Command A and Cmd Option M) and that is that. Or you can read the 
first or any post; if so, yet another window pops up with the actual 
post. Space bar or up/down arrows on the window will get you the next 
post if you want. 

It's all *nice looking*. Do not underestimate this! It works easily. 
If you want to see if more posts have come in, you just Command Y on 
the Groups window. You can probably set it for auto fetch every x mins 
but that is not any sort of *essential*, it is the sort of thing that 
a developer *can* forget about if it is a lot of trouble to code. Why 
risk complexity and error for non essentials? These extra things are 
not the biggest factor in what makes software good. It is the basic 
bones, how nice they look and operate. Indeed, piling on extra goodies 
is road fraught with danger.

I know MT-NW is quite complex and does a lot of things for a lot of 
people but there are many things it did not have do or try to do and 
it would *still* have fans like me.


> > What would be the simplest easiest to use newsreader that *you* would 
> > want for yourself? Would it be an easier thing to make and cost less? 
>

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
6/8/2014 9:20:54 AM
Hi Lewis,

On 2014-06-07 20:59:56 +0000, Lewis said:
> He said a GOOD newsreader.

whatever that is. Everybody seems to have his/her own *VERY INDIVIDUAL* 
needs or wishes if it comes to especially newsreaders. This is very 
fascinating because I never saw opinions about any sort of software 
spread that far apart as the ones about newsreaders. This is really 
strange...

I for one have very simple needs: Read news thread by thread and 
possibly answer a message. *ALL* newsreaders can do that. So NewsTap is 
as good for me as is Unison or whatever other software there. :) And I 
don't live in Sparta... :P
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/8/2014 10:45:44 AM
In article <070620142202098942%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I 
> > run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows 
> > XP and Windows 7. 
> 
> I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
> version, nor any other OS.

Printing/Graphics work, so gotta keep up with the OS upgrades...  We 
receive all kinds of files from all kinds of customers.  Sometimes we 
need an older version of an application in order to maintain 
compatibility.

Older apps don't always render things correctly when running on a newer 
OS, and vice versa.  Since we convert our Mac files for use with our 
Windows Packaging apps, it's gotta be a perfect match.

At home, it's pretty much Mt. Lion for 98% of the non-work stuff I do.

What pisses me off is that I'd been working the kinks out of Mavericks, 
and was ready to make the switch.  I had even settled on Thoth for my 
newsreader... and then the developer pulled the rug out from under his 
software.

I liked the Thoth trial, but waited a little too long to register my 
software.  Now I can't. 

I snoozed.  I loozed.

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/8/2014 12:05:49 PM
In article <080620141803152745%YourName@YourISP.com>,
 Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> In article <1lmxn8a.13mr6wz19s1j26N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I
> > > > run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, Windows
> > > > XP and Windows 7. 
> > > 
> > > I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
> > > version, nor any other OS.
> > 
> > I count four apps just in my Dock that no longer work past OS X
> > 10.6.8...
> 
> There are applications I use that only run under Mac OS 9.  :-)
> (Even excluding old games.)

About once every year and a half I need to modify a font, or tweak my 
handwriting font - and I have to fire up my OS9 iBook.

I have to boot into "classic" to run Fontographer.  At $400 bucks for a 
newer version... I'll suffer with my G3 laptop.

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/8/2014 12:12:39 PM
In article <fredp151-4DDA41.08123908062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
 FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <080620141803152745%YourName@YourISP.com>,
>  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> 
> > In article <1lmxn8a.13mr6wz19s1j26N%jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz>, Jamie
> > Kahn Genet <jamiekg@wizardling.geek.nz> wrote:
> > > Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In article <fredp151-1BBBA1.23401907062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > > > FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > My home system is a Mac Pro Tower, and depending on what I'm doing, I
> > > > > run almost everything; Snow Leopard, Lion, Mt. Lion, Mavericks, 
> > > > > Windows
> > > > > XP and Windows 7. 
> > > > 
> > > > I run Mavericks for everything, and have no need to run any prior
> > > > version, nor any other OS.
> > > 
> > > I count four apps just in my Dock that no longer work past OS X
> > > 10.6.8...
> > 
> > There are applications I use that only run under Mac OS 9.  :-)
> > (Even excluding old games.)
> 
> About once every year and a half I need to modify a font, or tweak my 
> handwriting font - and I have to fire up my OS9 iBook.
> 
> I have to boot into "classic" to run Fontographer.  At $400 bucks for a 
> newer version... I'll suffer with my G3 laptop.

Can't you use Sheepshaver?
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 12:50:13 PM
In article <bvj4g6Faf9nU1@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was> 
wrote:

> Can't you use Sheepshaver?

The line in the description "However, you still need a copy of Mac OS 
and a PowerMac ROM image to use this program. " always put me off.

Maybe at home... but for the number of times I need it, it's just easier 
to boot up the laptop.

As far a actual WORK "work" goes, procedural guidelines dictate what and 
how we do everything.

All installs on our work machines have to be done by IT guys.  Windows 
IT guys, at that.   

Ponder that thought...

-- 
Never argue with stupid people. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. -Twain
0
FPP
6/8/2014 1:03:21 PM
In article <fredp151-914DAD.09032108062014@news.eternal-september.org>,
 FPP <fredp151@gmail.com> wrote:

> n article <bvj4g6Faf9nU1@mid.individual.net>, android <here@there.was> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Can't you use Sheepshaver?
> 
> The line in the description "However, you still need a copy of Mac OS 
> and a PowerMac ROM image to use this program. " always put me off.

Those can be legally obtained, if that's what you are talking about... 
The ROM came with OS9 upgrade.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 1:24:11 PM
On 2014.06.07, 12:32 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:

> $20K is the economic reality.  If you don=E2=80=99t agree, you=E2=80=99=
re welcome to pay
> someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how much ch=
eaper
> it ends up being.

Dude.  I don't need a usenet client.  See: I'm using one.

And I use one I paid for - after it was developed.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 1:32:57 PM
In message <bvi55fF48ubU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> And your claim that my posts are unnecessary is the polar opposite
> of your statement that Browne has the right to air his irritations.
> Apparently you would like to apply a double standard here. 

It is Dory, it is all about double standards.

-- 
'Witches just aren't like that,' said Magrat. 'We live in harmony with
the great cycles of Nature, and do no harm to anyone, and it's wicked of
them to say we don't. We ought to fill their bones with hot lead.'
0
Lewis
6/8/2014 1:38:16 PM
In message <ln0vui$llf$1@reader2.panix.com> 
  billy@MIX.COM <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:
> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

>> Name me a single other newsreader that has factored out the
>> NNTP bits for reuse.

> Why would anyone want to do this?

>> Show me anywhere I can use curl on the command like to fetch
>> a news: or nntp: URL.

> Again, why would anyone want to do this?

Oh, that is very easy to imagine being very very useful.

-- 
No matter how fast light travels it finds the darkness has always got
there first, and is waiting for it.
0
Lewis
6/8/2014 1:41:46 PM
On 2014.06.07, 13:41 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to hi=
m)
>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>
> You are being intellectually dishonest.

You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about=20
intellectually dishonest!

I don=E2=80=99t want =E2=80=9Ceveryone=E2=80=9D to fund
> it; I purposely only want the people who *can* see the value to fund it=
 so
> that we can get back to having a FREE newsreader available that was
> designed *for* the Mac.  And a fair shot at running on iOS, too.
>
> And there is not, nor has there ever been, Usenet as a first-class prot=
ocol
> on the Mac or any other platform.  Name me a single other newsreader th=
at
> has factored out the NNTP bits for reuse.  Show me anywhere I can use c=
url
> on the command like to fetch a news: or nntp: URL.  If it exists, I hav=
en=E2=80=99t
> seen it.

And few people care.  There are a number of Mac solutions - their names=20
have been bandied about and they all do the essential things that usenet =

clients must do.

If the world were clammoring for a perfect, "first-class" usenet client=20
with all the items you name it would a) exist or b) be worth developing=20
now and charging later.
>
> *That* is my intent when I talk about bringing Usenet to the Mac.  Unle=
ss
> you want to continue to appear to be a wing-nut, you have to acknowledg=
e
> this reality.  Or keep going on like you are, and filtering becomes a
> higher priority.  :-)

The wing-nut here is he who is trying to raise cash up front for=20
something with marginal additional benefit v. what is in the market.=20
Satisfying the needs for things like "curl on the command line to fetch=20
news" is not something very many people will actually use to yabber away =

on usenet.

As to filtering, filter me.  I don't care.  At all.

>> While TB and others are not perfect, they do the job fine for most peo=
ple.
>
> No, Twitter and Facebook and Instagram are what do the job fine for mos=
t
> people.

Since the subject is usenet clients changing the context is pretty poor=20
form.

>
>> He should develop it on his own and then market it as donation or
>> license ware. That's the best way to see if he's "right".
>
> I don=E2=80=99t want to be whatever you think it means to be =E2=80=9Cr=
ight=E2=80=9D in this case.
> What I want is for a regular Mac user to be able to fire up a free app =
to
> to start chatting away on Usenet and have it work like they would expec=
t it
> to.  I=E2=80=99d drop what I=E2=80=99m doing if anyone else had managed=
 that simple task

If you go to Google Groups and look up this group you'll see that there=20
has been little impediment to Mac users yabbering away for a long time=20
with a variety of usenet clients.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 1:43:49 PM
On 2014.06.07, 13:41 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>

BTW:

* -- dn =C6=83u=E1=B4=89=CA=9Eool =C7=9D=C9=B9=C9=90 s=C6=83u=E1=B4=89=C9=
=A5=CA=87

Showed up fine too...

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 1:50:40 PM
In message <bvit6oF90oeU1@mid.individual.net> 
  Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> wrote:
> Hi Lewis,

> On 2014-06-07 20:59:56 +0000, Lewis said:
>> He said a GOOD newsreader.

> whatever that is. Everybody seems to have his/her own *VERY INDIVIDUAL* 
> needs or wishes if it comes to especially newsreaders. This is very 
> fascinating because I never saw opinions about any sort of software 
> spread that far apart as the ones about newsreaders. This is really 
> strange...

The same sorts of issues arise with most software. See vi vs emacs, or
discussions on email programs. Hell, Mac vs Windows.

> I for one have very simple needs: Read news thread by thread and 
> possibly answer a message. *ALL* newsreaders can do that. So NewsTap is 
> as good for me as is Unison or whatever other software there. :) And I 
> don't live in Sparta... :P

Right, and many people have more involved requirements. Like not
reading crossposted articles multiple times. Being able to kill threads
effectively, being able to kill nym-shifting trolls. Understanding
..signature files and reading the file for each post, not once per
session (Firefox). I want a newsreader to have an excellent editor but
still let me set my own (BBEdit, TextWrangler, vim, whatever).

For me, UTF-8 support is a must. In fact, I down-rate articles that are
posted in legacy encodings.

Since using slrn, I think that a scoring method instead of a simple
kill file is also a requirement for me.

The only problem with slrn for me is that it really works best in a
full-screen terminal window, and that really means that I can't use it
on my desktop machine because full-screen Terminal windows look
ridiculous on a 27" screen. Works a treat on my laptop.

-- 
You and me Sunday driving Not arriving
0
Lewis
6/8/2014 1:51:41 PM
In message <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com> 
  Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.07, 13:41 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>> For your reference, records indicate that
>> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
>>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>
>> You are being intellectually dishonest.

> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about 
> intellectually dishonest!

Seems accurate to me. There is not a single application for the Mac that
I would consider even a passable USENET client. The best GUI option is
ThunderBird, which is not a *Mac* application. There are CLI options,
but again those are not *Mac* applications.

-- 
The person on the other side was a young woman. Very obviously a young
woman. There was no possible way that she could have been mistaken for a
young man in any language, especially Braille.
0
Lewis
6/8/2014 2:00:52 PM
On 2014.06.07, 17:33 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Just not realistic in development demand for a thing that he
>> could market as payware/shareware/donation ware afterwards.
>
> Exactly the opposite.  I *am* realistic in thinking that it would be a
> waste of my time to put long hours into polishing up an app on the mere=

> *hope* that charging $10 (or $30 like Unison) would have people lining =
up
> to start using Usenet again.  My thinking remains quite clear and
> straightforward:

"To start using usenet again"

Are you real?

1. Usenet use has not stopped.
2. Usenet use has gone down.
3. Usenet use will not go up because of an app whether it is tailored to =

absolute Mac compliance and perfection or not.

> 1. Most Mac users want Mac software

     TB is Mac s/w
     Unison is Mac s/w
     etc.

     Is it pure as the driven snow Mac s/w?  No.

     But it doesn't matter.

> 2. Most everyone wants software that costs them nothing
> 3. OS updates completely killing apps is bad for everyone

     Apps worth making are apps worth maintaining until they're not.

>
> Given all that, the most fair thing to do is what I have done.  It isn=E2=
=80=99t
> clear to me why you=E2=80=99ve decided to take such umbrage.

Again

	- your claim that usenet has left the Mac in your funding call
           (Reality: there are several usenet clients)

	- your character bombs to make a point
           (Still waiting on that one)

	- your exaggerated goal of $20K.
           (You want all upside for you with all risk on pledgers)

>
>> The case is that there is no pure-of-heart usenet client for Mac and
>> that the Mac community is clamoring for such.  If that is the case the=
n
>> he shouldn't fear toiling now and tolling later.
>
> There is considerable desire, yes, but the real question is whether or =
not
> the economics of that =E2=80=9Cneed=E2=80=9D match the real costs of so=
ftware development.
> I=E2=80=99ve laid out what I think is a generous and workable way forwa=
rd.  I=E2=80=99m
> not sure why you think there is more money in a commercial venture, nor=
 am
> I sure how much more you think there is.  10x?  100x?

In the end it's your choice.  I don't recall who said if you really=20
think something should be done in s/w, then just do it and worry about=20
making money later.

You could also crowd source the development and reduce your time risk.=20
(small crowd to be sure).

> No matter.  If you *truly* believe there is a profit to be had by makin=
g a
> commercial Usenet client, contact me directly and we can go a whole
> different way with this.  All you have to do is pony up the dough.  I
> will, of course, readjust my bill rate upwards to reflect market pricin=
g.

Bluster.  Quaint.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 2:01:10 PM
In article <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
> >> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
> >
> > You are being intellectually dishonest.
> 
> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about 
> intellectually dishonest!

As JR said, you're taking a marketing slogan way too literally!  Relax,
go to Washington state and have a toke.

-- Michelle
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 2:16:34 PM
On 2014.06.08, 02:48 , android wrote:

> It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There are
> other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...

NO THERE ARE NOT.  Doc said so.

If you're reading this, it is a figment of your imagination because I 
can't possibly be writing this on my Mac right now.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 2:17:11 PM
In article <Ds2dnV-nq5448QnOnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> - your character bombs to make a point
>            (Still waiting on that one)

He already answered that one a day or two ago.

>  - your exaggerated goal of $20K.
>            (You want all upside for you with all risk on pledgers)

If he doesn't reach that goal, we all get our money back.
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 2:18:48 PM
On 2014.06.08, 10:00 , Lewis wrote:
> In message <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>
>    Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.06.07, 13:41 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
>>> For your reference, records indicate that
>>> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
>>>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>>
>>> You are being intellectually dishonest.
>
>> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about
>> intellectually dishonest!
>
> Seems accurate to me. There is not a single application for the Mac that
> I would consider even a passable USENET client. The best GUI option is
> ThunderBird, which is not a *Mac* application. There are CLI options,
> but again those are not *Mac* applications.

While TB may not be the perfect usenet client it is compiled for OS X 
and therefore a Mac app.

Believe it or not a lot of apps run on a lot of platforms.  So they may 
not conform to the particular target in all ways - OTOH, they don't 
conform to any specific target in any way.  AFAIK TB is available for OS 
X, Windows and Linux (possibly other Unix').

When you pause to think (recommended) that is how apps _should_ be 
written so that they can be deployed on more platforms and thereby 
reduce s/w development and maintenance cost.

A very good example is Photoshop.  It is almost identical in every 
function and UI on OS X and Windows.  (Yes, it is well funded too). 
It's original design may not have been that way - but they turned the 
ship quickly enough.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 2:35:43 PM
On 2014.06.08, 10:16 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
>>>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>>
>>> You are being intellectually dishonest.
>>
>> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about
>> intellectually dishonest!
>
> As JR said, you're taking a marketing slogan way too literally!  Relax,
> go to Washington state and have a toke.

That alone wouldn't get my dander up - it's the whole stinking pile.

Since weed is all but legal here (you have to be really out there to 
even get fined for possesion) I don't have to waste any airmiles to 
toke.  Not that I do.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 2:40:25 PM
On 2014.06.08, 10:18 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <Ds2dnV-nq5448QnOnZ2dnUVZ_uGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> - your character bombs to make a point
>>             (Still waiting on that one)
>
> He already answered that one a day or two ago.

Really?  I'll go looking.  But feel free to quote.  The SO is glaring at 
me...

>
>>   - your exaggerated goal of $20K.
>>             (You want all upside for you with all risk on pledgers)
>
> If he doesn't reach that goal, we all get our money back.

Actually you will never have committed it unless he reaches his goal.

That aside, what remains is that if he reaches his goal he has the cash 
in the bank - but you have nothing until he delivers the product.

As I've mentioned, $20K seems okay if he has a cash outlay (material / 
tooling).

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 2:44:13 PM
In article <c-mdnXLPfJtF6AnOnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2014.06.08, 10:16 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> > In article <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> > <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
> >>>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
> >>>
> >>> You are being intellectually dishonest.
> >>
> >> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about
> >> intellectually dishonest!
> >
> > As JR said, you're taking a marketing slogan way too literally!  Relax,
> > go to Washington state and have a toke.
> 
> That alone wouldn't get my dander up - it's the whole stinking pile.

Regardless, I think you are way way overreacting.

> Since weed is all but legal here (you have to be really out there to 
> even get fined for possesion) I don't have to waste any airmiles to 
> toke. 

Ah.  I wasn't sure what the situation was there regarding weed.

> Not that I do.

Waste air miles?
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 2:54:47 PM
In article <gp6dnZOWw5sh6wnOnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > If he doesn't reach that goal, we all get our money back.
> 
> Actually you will never have committed it unless he reaches his goal.

My credit card was charged the $50 already.

> That aside, what remains is that if he reaches his goal he has the cash 
> in the bank - but you have nothing until he delivers the product.

I'll be getting beta copies;  that's one of the reason I pledged $50
instead of a smaller sum.  (The other reason, as I mentioned, is his
references to Firefly.)
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 2:57:41 PM
In article <080620140716344832%michelle@michelle.org>,
 Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:

> In article <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> > >> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
> > >> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
> > >
> > > You are being intellectually dishonest.
> > 
> > You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about 
> > intellectually dishonest!
> 
> As JR said, you're taking a marketing slogan way too literally!  Relax,
> go to Washington state and have a toke.
> 
> -- Michelle

JR never got out the E-ving...
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 3:15:28 PM
In article <HKudnWPKoaH77QnOnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> On 2014.06.08, 02:48 , android wrote:
> 
> > It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There are
> > other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...
> 
> NO THERE ARE NOT.  Doc said so.
> 
> If you're reading this, it is a figment of your imagination because I 
> can't possibly be writing this on my Mac right now.

Ohhh.... He's not a medical doctor. Merely a Phd. Who cares???
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 3:17:55 PM
In article <ln0vui$llf$1@reader2.panix.com>, <billy@MIX.COM> wrote:

> > Name me a single other newsreader that has factored out the
> > NNTP bits for reuse.
> 
> Why would anyone want to do this?

because it's proper design.

> > Show me anywhere I can use curl on the command like to fetch
> > a news: or nntp: URL.
> 
> Again, why would anyone want to do this?

why wouldn't anyone want to do that? 

if you have the message id you can easily get the message, and for
binaries this could be quite powerful.

> > If it exists, I haven't seen it.
> 
> lynx news:'lmvire$u2h$1@dont-email.me' works.
> 
> curl is a tool to transfer data from or to a server, using one of the
> supported protocols (DICT, FILE, FTP, FTPS, GOPHER, HTTP, HTTPS, IMAP,
> IMAPS, LDAP, LDAPS, POP3, POP3S, RTMP, RTSP, SCP, SFTP, SMTP, SMTPS,
> TELNET and TFTP).
> 
> Do you see news or nntp in the above list?  I didn't think so.

because nobody wrote a reusable nntp module for it to use.

> It's a piece of cake with, for example, perl (794 bytes in 56 lines),
> though.

56 lines of perl is not a piece of cake
0
nospam
6/8/2014 3:20:45 PM
Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> For me, UTF-8 support is a must. In fact, I down-rate articles that are
> posted in legacy encodings.

Wow, you and certain others really do have an irrational almost
religious obsession with Unicode, don't you? And for absolutely zero
good reason, given almost all posts are still readable and composed in
only ASCII characters - including your own! :-D

-- 
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
0
jamiekg
6/8/2014 4:10:05 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Dude.  I don't need a usenet client.  See: I'm using one.
> 
> And I use one I paid for - after it was developed.

As always, great for you.  I’m not even sure how you paid for Thunderbird,
but if it is what meets your needs, I have no cause to doubt you.  But,
last I checked, it was not done *for* the Mac, and is unlikely to lead to an
iOS newsreader.

Any issues you have with crowdfunding is entirely a separate subjects.  The
MO of *all* such projects is to pay first for something that is delievered
later.  Even with that policy, I took the burden on myself to go the extra
mile and actually start developing Signal *first*.  You continually try to
paint me as a bad actor for some reason, but all you is shine a light on
yourself.

-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/8/2014 4:27:37 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
android <here@there.was> wrote:

> Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK.

I added a header that some software might look for before decoding messages
properly.

> Now 
> put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing 
> something new or are better than existing offerings people outside your 
> immediate family might pay for a license to use it!

There’s no point in that.  Dozens of newsreaders have come before me and
demonstrated that a commercial market *does not exist* for Usenet.  My
market test right now is this Indiegogo campaign.  If it gets nowhere close
to $20K, then there is simply no point in me investing hundreds or
thousands of more hours into polishing up the code I have to an app that
anyone can use.

> It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There are 
> other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...

And here you demonstrate quite well that you know exactly how unlikely it
is that even a $10 newsreader would draw a substantial, paying audience.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/8/2014 4:35:39 PM
On 2014.06.08, 10:54 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <c-mdnXLPfJtF6AnOnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> On 2014.06.08, 10:16 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
>>> In article <GqidnfUBT_IJ9QnOnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
>>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Mr. Doc wants everyone to fund his new reader because (according to him)
>>>>>> there is nothing for Mac in the Mavericks era.
>>>>>
>>>>> You are being intellectually dishonest.
>>>>
>>>> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about
>>>> intellectually dishonest!
>>>
>>> As JR said, you're taking a marketing slogan way too literally!  Relax,
>>> go to Washington state and have a toke.
>>
>> That alone wouldn't get my dander up - it's the whole stinking pile.
>
> Regardless, I think you are way way overreacting.

You're entitled to think anything you like.  In many ways I believe the 
OP is overreacting with his presentation that there is no "Mac solution" 
to using usenet with a Mac.

>
>> Since weed is all but legal here (you have to be really out there to
>> even get fined for possesion) I don't have to waste any airmiles to
>> toke.
>
> Ah.  I wasn't sure what the situation was there regarding weed.

Quebec is probably the most tolerant province - BC might be moreso. 
Quebec also has its own provincial police force where most other 
provinces (not all) rely on the RCMP who respond more to the desires of 
the federal government - currently led by George Bush Jr. (aka Stephen 
Harper).    Ontario has its own police - but apparently are stiff on pot.

Quebec governments are socially liberal (no matter who gets in) and 
cracking down on pot is really not a concern unless it is criminal gang 
related (Hells Angels, Unorganized Crime (the Italian mob), the Irish 
mob, etc.).  And that's not so much about the pot as the surrounding 
business policies and practices.

The police here (provincial or municipal stopped wasting resources on 
petty possession a long time ago.  They don't bust low level sellers 
(unless its an included offense for something else) - they prefer to go 
after the organizations.  Fewer, bigger busts.

Med mari is growing quickly too but under very strict fed oversight.

>
>> Not that I do.
>
> Waste air miles?

Both.  My last toke (which was probably my 10th, more or less) was about 
30 years ago.  That stuff wasn't as potent as today's better stuff.

I have nothing against it and I've entertained doing it again on 
occasion, but when offered I tend to decline.  One day...

Airmiles have piled up in several accounts.  I've used more of them to 
fly other people hither and yonder than myself come to think of it.

-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 4:40:19 PM
On 2014.06.08, 10:57 , Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <gp6dnZOWw5sh6wnOnZ2dnUVZ_vSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> If he doesn't reach that goal, we all get our money back.
>>
>> Actually you will never have committed it unless he reaches his goal.
>
> My credit card was charged the $50 already.

Really?  I didn't think it was taken until they met the goal.  When I 
pledged to an indiegogo last year they had already passed the goal - but 
I wanted the benefit of being a participant (got a widget and for less 
than the retail price...)

>
>> That aside, what remains is that if he reaches his goal he has the cash
>> in the bank - but you have nothing until he delivers the product.
>
> I'll be getting beta copies;  that's one of the reason I pledged $50
> instead of a smaller sum.  (The other reason, as I mentioned, is his
> references to Firefly.)

No idea what that is.  I guess my usenet experience must be sorely lacking.



-- 
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.


0
Alan
6/8/2014 4:42:15 PM
On 2014.06.08, 12:27 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> Dude.  I don't need a usenet client.  See: I'm using one.
>>
>> And I use one I paid for - after it was developed.
>
> As always, great for you.  I=E2=80=99m not even sure how you paid for T=
hunderbird,

I didn't.

I did pay for Unison.  I use it if there is large multipart to DL.

But for basic usenet, TB is more than adequate to my needs and probably=20
the needs of most people using usenet.  (I have to specify that lest you =

bring up irrelevancies such as Twitter again).

> but if it is what meets your needs, I have no cause to doubt you.  But,=

> last I checked, it was not done *for* the Mac, and is unlikely to lead =
to an
> iOS newsreader.

Many things on Macs were not done specifically for the Mac but they have =

lent themselves (properly) to being compiled for various platforms.=20
That is really the loftier goal - compliance to Mac OS X down to the=20
last bit is a constraint - not a liberty.

> Any issues you have with crowdfunding is entirely a separate subjects. =
 The
> MO of *all* such projects is to pay first for something that is delieve=
red
> later.  Even with that policy, I took the burden on myself to go the ex=
tra
> mile and actually start developing Signal *first*.  You continually try=
 to
> paint me as a bad actor for some reason, but all you is shine a light o=
n
> yourself.

Not at all.  I am the stick in your spokes.  A spoiler.

I have nothing against what you want to do - just your means of=20
announcing it and financing it.

Knock it back to $2500 for scotch and cigars and I'll throw in $20 myself=
=2E

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 4:51:17 PM
In article <ln23cq$ih3$2@dont-email.me>,
 Darrin "Doc" O'Leary  <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:

> For your reference, records indicate that 
> android <here@there.was> wrote:
> 
> > Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK.
> 
> I added a header that some software might look for before decoding messages
> properly.

There you go. You could! Well Done!!! Now it's useful...
> 
> > Now 
> > put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing 
> > something new or are better than existing offerings people outside your 
> > immediate family might pay for a license to use it!
> 
> There’s no point in that.  Dozens of newsreaders have come before me and
> demonstrated that a commercial market *does not exist* for Usenet.  My
> market test right now is this Indiegogo campaign.  If it gets nowhere close
> to $20K, then there is simply no point in me investing hundreds or
> thousands of more hours into polishing up the code I have to an app that
> anyone can use.

I seems like a working product to me. Why don't you post a time limited 
beta for testing?
> 
> > It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There are 
> > other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...
> 
> And here you demonstrate quite well that you know exactly how unlikely it
> is that even a $10 newsreader would draw a substantial, paying audience.

I think you can ask at least $25 for a good one. Maybe more.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 4:53:42 PM
On 2014.06.08, 12:35 , Darrin Doc O'Leary wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that
> android <here@there.was> wrote:
>
>> Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK.
>
> I added a header that some software might look for before decoding mess=
ages
> properly.
>
>> Now
>> put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing
>> something new or are better than existing offerings people outside you=
r
>> immediate family might pay for a license to use it!
>
> There=E2=80=99s no point in that.  Dozens of newsreaders have come befo=
re me and
> demonstrated that a commercial market *does not exist* for Usenet.  My
> market test right now is this Indiegogo campaign.  If it gets nowhere c=
lose
> to $20K, then there is simply no point in me investing hundreds or
> thousands of more hours into polishing up the code I have to an app tha=
t
> anyone can use.

Which is why you should consider crowdsourcing it.  If you're the=20
architect, specify some number of modules and their function and then=20
see if you can find like minded programmers to do their part.  That=20
reduces your workload, allows you to focus on the big picture, reduces=20
your risk and, in the end, will likely result in a higher quality=20
product with more reviewers.

--=20
I was born a 1%er - I'm just more equal than the rest.



0
Alan
6/8/2014 4:55:24 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> It's only an "economic reality" if it's the way you making your
> livelihood

It’s an economic reality to anyone who doesn’t try to externalize costs.
Are *you* offering me some other way to make my livelihood so that I *could*
just give Signal away?  If so, it may even fit into the $10K perk that is
already listed for Signal.  Otherwise, contact me directly if the large sums
of money you want to give me are unrelated to leveraging Usenet.

> If it's simply a hobby project you're doing in your spare time, then
> it's not even remotely an "economic reality", more like common
> greediness, especially if the final product is free and if those
> generous / stupid enough to donate won't be getting anything everybody
> else gets anyway. Of course if the product never appears, then it's
> simply a scam.

Yes, this app I already have running is a complete scam.  And, really,
aren’t we all sick an tired of the string of newsreaders we’ve had that
*were* run like they were hobby projects?  So, no; that stops here.  The
only signs of greediness here is people who expect to get something for
nothing.

> The more sensible option is simply to release the application as
> freeware or donationware.

Nope.  Having to support software released to the general public would
result in a *far* greater cost than I’m prepared to pay at this time.  My
generosity right now is limited to doing development in advance of funding.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/8/2014 5:00:01 PM
In article <48udnWWjyMz6DwnOnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>> If he doesn't reach that goal, we all get our money back.
> >>
> >> Actually you will never have committed it unless he reaches his goal.
> >
> > My credit card was charged the $50 already.
> 
> Really?  I didn't think it was taken until they met the goal.  When I 
> pledged to an indiegogo last year they had already passed the goal - but 
> I wanted the benefit of being a participant (got a widget and for less 
> than the retail price...)

From what I understand, Indigogo and similar crowd funding sources hang
onto the money until the goal is met; then they disburse it to the
client.  If the goal is not met, they refund it to the donors.  I
*assume* that their income is the interest generated by the money
they're holding in escrow.

> >> That aside, what remains is that if he reaches his goal he has the cash
> >> in the bank - but you have nothing until he delivers the product.
> >
> > I'll be getting beta copies;  that's one of the reason I pledged $50
> > instead of a smaller sum.  (The other reason, as I mentioned, is his
> > references to Firefly.)
> 
> No idea what that is.  I guess my usenet experience must be sorely lacking.

One of the best Science Fiction TV shows ever made; unfortunately, FOX
butchered it (by showing episodes out of sequence, giving it bad time
slots, etc.), so it lasted only one season (without showing all of the
episodes).  Check it out; you can get it through iTunes.
0
Michelle
6/8/2014 5:01:39 PM
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 08:48:20 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> In article <lmveq4$3fd$1@dont-email.me>,
>  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
>
>> For your reference, records indicate that Alan Browne 
>> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> 
>> > Then get cracking.
>> 
>> I already got cracking.  That’s the point of me demoing a prototype 
>> for the campaign.  A separate framework already exists and works 
>> fairly well, but I would still want to to *a lot* of tweaking before 
>> releasing it (especially cleaning up the API for public consumption).
>> 
>> > Seriously - where the Apple world needs a usenet client is for iOS.
>> 
>> Well, unless funding picks up dramatically, they’re not going to get 
>> it from me.  It seems the economics of the “need” just isn’t in line 
>> with the effort involved.  Either a lot more people need to get 
>> interested in Usenet as a social network, or some entity with funding 
>> needs to see how it can be leveraged for a particular goal.  And, in 
>> the grand scheme of things, the $20K or $50K that it would take is 
>> hardly a drop in the bucket compared to some of the projects I’ve 
>> worked on that cost much more and achieved so much less.
>> 
>> > Your request for funding isn't free either.
>> 
>> It’s free in that the result will be free to everyone, and possibly 
>> even free to the extent of putting the code in the public domain, and 
>> that is *hugely* important when you want to be able to introduce new 
>> people to Usenet.  That’s a far better deal than having *everyone* 
>> pay, like Unison does.  Even a non-commercial effort like mine has a 
>> non-zero cost.
>> 
>> > $20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is 
>> > needed.
>> 
>> $20K is the economic reality.  If you don’t agree, you’re welcome to 
>> pay someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how 
>> much cheaper it ends up being.
>
> Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK. Now 
> put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing 
> something new or are better than existing offerings people outside 
> your immediate family might pay for a license to use it!

Out of curiosity, have you ever written software code?  Do you 
understand the amount of work that's involved?

> It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There 
> are other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...

Yes, and they are all inadequate in one way or another.  Signal might 
be, too, but we haven't seen that yet.

I'm always intrigued by the Usenet subculture that is driven to attack 
the efforts of others.
0
Tim
6/8/2014 5:08:19 PM
On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 10:17:11 -0400, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.06.08, 02:48 , android wrote:
>
>> It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There 
>> are other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...
>
> NO THERE ARE NOT.  Doc said so.
>
> If you're reading this, it is a figment of your imagination because I 
> can't possibly be writing this on my Mac right now.

Good grief, Alan- when did you decide to become an idiot?
0
Tim
6/8/2014 5:09:30 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
billy@MIX.COM wrote:

> Darrin Doc O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> 
> > And this gets into some of the tricky bits of threading.  What if an
> > article was crossposted, read in another group, but a followup only posted
> > to the current group?  Don't show the parent?  Show it as read?  There are
> > many messy edge conditions when it comes to how to best treat the
> > newsreading experience in a user friendly manner.
> 
> This is but one area where your imagined digust with all the work
> everyone else has done is going to cost you, big time.

What?  I’ve never expressed any disgust.  Only a sadness that the software
wasn’t designed better or the projects weren’t run more professionally.  I
would have *loved* it to be that case that I *could* use the work you/they
had done when implementing Signal.  But the code was a mess from an external
perspective.

And, regarding this particular issue, there is not a lot of work involved in
solving it.  It is fundamentally a matter of personal taste how you present
a (broken) hierarchy to users.  My taste clearly doesn’t match that of those
who like how MacSOUP shows it, and so displaying things like that is not
going to be a priority to me.  I’m upfront about that, and upfront about the
fact that I would have no problem implementing it if the people who really
wanted it paid for it.  Seems simple enough; no need to evoke base emotions.


-- 
dn ƃuᴉʞool ǝɹɐ sƃuᴉɥʇ

0
Darrin
6/8/2014 5:16:42 PM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:

> If you want to see if more posts have come in, you just Command Y on 
> the Groups window.

Tin does this with just plain y.  One key, no Command necessary.

Billy Y..
-- 
        sub     #'9+1   ,r0             ; convert ascii byte
	add     #9.+1   ,r0             ; to an integer
	bcc     20$                     ; not a number
0
billy
6/8/2014 5:18:17 PM
In article <slrnlp9643.gol.timmcn@sugaree.local>,
 Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 08 Jun 2014 08:48:20 +0200, android <here@there.was> wrote:
> > In article <lmveq4$3fd$1@dont-email.me>,
> >  Darrin "Doc" O'Leary <droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For your reference, records indicate that Alan Browne 
> >> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >> 
> >> > Then get cracking.
> >> 
> >> I already got cracking.  That’s the point of me demoing a prototype 
> >> for the campaign.  A separate framework already exists and works 
> >> fairly well, but I would still want to to *a lot* of tweaking before 
> >> releasing it (especially cleaning up the API for public consumption).
> >> 
> >> > Seriously - where the Apple world needs a usenet client is for iOS.
> >> 
> >> Well, unless funding picks up dramatically, they’re not going to get 
> >> it from me.  It seems the economics of the “need” just isn’t in line 
> >> with the effort involved.  Either a lot more people need to get 
> >> interested in Usenet as a social network, or some entity with funding 
> >> needs to see how it can be leveraged for a particular goal.  And, in 
> >> the grand scheme of things, the $20K or $50K that it would take is 
> >> hardly a drop in the bucket compared to some of the projects I’ve 
> >> worked on that cost much more and achieved so much less.
> >> 
> >> > Your request for funding isn't free either.
> >> 
> >> It’s free in that the result will be free to everyone, and possibly 
> >> even free to the extent of putting the code in the public domain, and 
> >> that is *hugely* important when you want to be able to introduce new 
> >> people to Usenet.  That’s a far better deal than having *everyone* 
> >> pay, like Unison does.  Even a non-commercial effort like mine has a 
> >> non-zero cost.
> >> 
> >> > $20000 is more akin to projects where material and/or tooling is 
> >> > needed.
> >> 
> >> $20K is the economic reality.  If you don’t agree, you’re welcome to 
> >> pay someone to else to write the software for you.  Let me know how 
> >> much cheaper it ends up being.
> >
> > Apparently you've fixed something in your code. The post looks OK. Now 
> > put your app on the market and be done with it. If it's contributing 
> > something new or are better than existing offerings people outside 
> > your immediate family might pay for a license to use it!
> 
> Out of curiosity, have you ever written software code?  Do you 
> understand the amount of work that's involved?

That's irrelevant here. What is is the value for the end user.
> 
> > It's not like we can't live without your efforts in this area. There 
> > are other working Usenet/NNTP clients for the Mac out there...
> 
> Yes, and they are all inadequate in one way or another.  Signal might 
> be, too, but we haven't seen that yet.
> 
> I'm always intrigued by the Usenet subculture that is driven to attack 
> the efforts of others.

Nooo.... You wan't a freebee society that Leary renounced earlier this 
spring.

One thousand of licensees paying $25 each gives him $5000 above the 
target that his set.
-- 
teleportation kills
http://tinyurl.com/androidphotography
0
android
6/8/2014 5:28:13 PM
On Sat, 7 Jun 2014 17:44:48 +0000 (UTC), Darrin Doc O'Leary 
<droleary@2q2014.subsume.com> wrote:
> For your reference, records indicate that Tim McNamara 
> <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
>> I think Doc has set the goal much too high but hopefully I will be 
>> wrong and that you can't stop the signal.
>
> I set it at a realistic, perhaps even generous, cost for doing this 
> sort of software development.  If anyone else is willing to do better 
> for less, the competition is welcome.

Realistic in terms of the time involved.  As I mentioned earlier, from 
the few folks I know who do programming I would estimate that $20,000 
falls somewhere in the 500-750 hour range.  I understand the need to 
replace income lost due to the time it would take to write Signal and 
make it usable for most Mac users.  I do not begrudge you that for a 
minute.

I just very much doubt that there is enough of a market to pony up for 
it, unfortunately, even if every Usenet-using person with a Mac sent you 
$10.  Maybe there are more users than I think, but looking at the 
newsgroups I frequent I would say that there is 1/10th of the active 
user base there was 5 years ago.  Perhaps those are outliers and there 
are larger clusters of users in other newsgroups.  

Even Google Groups has not "saved" Usenet and the eternal September 
appears to have faded away.  Twitter, Facebook and web fora have taken 
over much of the role that Usenet had; they require little technical 
knowledge compared to Usenet.  The Internet is an appliance now and a 
learning curve steeper than using a toaster is a barrier rather than an 
opportunity to most.

Sorry to sound so glum.  With the demise of MT-NW I have been hoping for 
a good newsreader replacement.  None of the existing ones make me happy 
for a variety of reasons (in large part, I suppose, because I used one 
of the NW variants for so many years and I hate the "Outlook Express" 
type of interfaces).  I have hopes for Signal but I don't think you're 
going to get $20,000 in pledges.

Also, I have no idea why but the video on your IndieGoGo page utterly 
refuses to play in Chromium and I can't find it on Vimeo.  It comes up 
as a Flash video but unlike any other Flash video I have seen I can't 
control-click it to give it permission to run.  It runs in Safari just 
fine so it's something specific to Chromium.  On a 13" MBP the small 
size is too small to see well, in full screen mode it's too fuzzy to see 
well.
0
Tim
6/8/2014 5:30:22 PM
Hi Tim,

On 2014-06-08 17:09:30 +0000, Tim McNamara said:
> Good grief, Alan- when did you decide to become an idiot?

don't ask, you might actually get an answer from him.

To answer FOR him: Very looooooooooooong ago. :)
-- 
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net

0
iso
6/8/2014 5:34:33 PM
For your reference, records indicate that 
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> You're the one claiming there is no usenet for Mac.  Talk about
> intellectually dishonest!

That is a straw man you continue to construct for yourself.  Everyone else
understands both the reality of my tag line as a marketing tool, and the
reality of NNTP not being a first-class protocol on *any* platform these
days.  There are newsreaders that run on the Mac, yes.  There is even a
non-free one that was developed *for* the Mac.  But there is *nothing* out
there that fills the niche that MT-NW did, and that is the problem I went
looking to address.  There is nothing I can do about the fact that you got
your undies in a bunch over the current state of affairs for some reason.

> If the world were clammoring for a perfect, "first-class" usenet client
> with all the items you name it would a) exist or b) be worth developing
> now and charging later.

Well that’s what we’re testing out by experiment now, isn’t it?  The state
of newsreaders on the Mac has always *seemed* like it was clamoring for
something better, but the market never seemed to materialize with anything
that came along.  Crowd funding, which seems to be your major issue, simply
allows the tables to be turned: if you really want something, the burden is
placed *on the market* to demonstrate it first.  I have even gone the extra
mile by beginning serious development before any funding was requested,