f



Where do I get advice about iPads versus Mac's?

I know nothing about Apple products!

I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB 
2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB

The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows 
for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.

Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?

Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I 
only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really 
use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).

What would you recommend?
(Where is the right place to ask this advice?)	
0
Susan
2/21/2014 10:12:12 PM
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On 2014.02.21, 17:12 , Susan O'Reilly wrote:
> I know nothing about Apple products!
>
> I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
> 1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
> 2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
>
> The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows
> for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
> to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.
>
> Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?
>
> Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I
> only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really
> use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).
>
> What would you recommend?
> (Where is the right place to ask this advice?)	

Kinda bizarre that they would offer you two iPads.  That aside:

IMO a MacBook Air is much more versatile.  I don't like the smaller 
version (11") - I'd go for the 13".  Then of course, it's not as 
portable as an iPad of any size - but still very portable, thin and 
relatively light.

The basic MBA's go for $999 and $1099 (11 and 13").

If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media, 
then an iPad is perhaps all you need.

Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.

For the amount of money they've allocated to you, you could opt for a 
more powerful MBA or MBP (MacBook Pro).  (13" MBP and a part of a 
processor or memory bump up - though 8 GB is more than adequate for most 
uses).

Or the MBA 13" with 1.7 GHz dual core i7, 8 GB of RAM and 256 GB of SSD.

That would be very sweet.  But look at your needs first.

Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can 
maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/21/2014 10:32:32 PM
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> 

You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.

It's *optional* and depending on the carrier you may be able to turn it on
only for the month(s) you want -- no contract.

I've never activated cell data on any of my iPads (I need the option, which
is why I get the cell-version).
bj
0
bj
2/21/2014 10:42:00 PM
On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 17:32:32 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

> Kinda bizarre that they would offer you two iPads.  That aside:

The gift was a decision by committee, given how much money they
had amassed. They told me I can change it out for anything I wanted
that was equal or lesser value anyway. It would be rude to just
swap it out for money, so, I will try to fulfill their request.

> IMO a MacBook Air is much more versatile.  I don't like the smaller 
> version (11") - I'd go for the 13".  Then of course, it's not as 
> portable as an iPad of any size - but still very portable, thin and 
> relatively light.

This is good advice, especially as I don't have a laptop yet.

> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.

I don't have data on my Android phones, but that's only because
I don't want to pay the extra money for a data plan.
 
> Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can 
> maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).

This is interesting because I already have a Windows Microsoft Office
2007 which isn't being used. I'm not sure what "parallels" means though.

0
Susan
2/21/2014 10:54:27 PM
In message <le8ivs$12k$1@speranza.aioe.org> 
  Susan O'Reilly <susano@example.com> wrote:
> I know nothing about Apple products!

> I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
> 1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB 
> 2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB

> The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows 
> for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
> to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.

> Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?

> Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I 
> only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really 
> use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).

Why can't you use two iPads?

Well, I mean, it might be a stretch to use two at the same time, but I
would use the mini as my portable device because it is small enough it
fits in the inside pocket of my jacket (barely), and use the iPad air for
couch surfing or couch video viewing.

-- 
Come on. Somewhere at the edge of the bell curve is the girl for me.
0
Lewis
2/21/2014 11:01:52 PM
In article <le8ivs$12k$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
<susano@example.com> wrote:

> I know nothing about Apple products!
> 
> I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
> 1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB 
> 2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
> 
> The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows 
> for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
> to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.
> 
> Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?

what do you want to do with it?

laptops work better for some things, while ipads work better for
others. there's a lot of overlap, so you have to think about what kinds
of things you actually do to decide what product best fits your needs.

what do you do with your computer? if it's things like email, share
photos, web surf, play games, etc., then an ipad is far better than
dealing with windows or mac os.

if you make movies, edit photos, write books, work on spreadsheets,
etc, then a laptop might be a better choice, but those can also be done
on an ipad. 

it's not a clear line. the difference is the user experience. some
things are much easier to do on an ipad, plus it's a lot more portable
(especially the mini). other things are easier on a laptop. 

and then there are all the features a laptop lacks like a gps, compass,
gyroscope, accelerometer, always on internet, touch based interface and
more. that means you can do things you *can't* do on a laptop.

one example is a stargazing app. hold the ipad up to the sky and it
shows you what stars you're looking at because it knows where you are
(gps) and which direction you're looking (compass). as you turn, the
display scrolls with you. 

> Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I 
> only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really 
> use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).

pick one for yourself and gift the other.

if portability is important, keep the mini. if not, keep the air.
internally, they're exactly the same thing. the only difference is
screen size.

sign up for the free 200 meg plan on t-mobile. even if you don't ever
use it, it's completely free, no strings attached, other than the free
plan expires in 2099, so you have time to plan ahead. 

there are higher tier data plans if you need more data, and they're all
pay as you go. you can activate only when you need it (like on a
vacation) and deactivate when you don't. ipads are also unlocked so you
can use any carrier you want, not just t-mobile. 

> What would you recommend?
> (Where is the right place to ask this advice?)   

ipad newsgroup.
0
nospam
2/21/2014 11:27:38 PM
In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media, 
> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.

ipads do much, much more than that.

> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.

no subscription is required. all ipads are pay as you go. they are also
unlocked so you can use any carrier you want.

activate the data plan when you need it and deactivate when you don't.

and t-mobile offers a free plan so for casual use, it's $0.
0
nospam
2/21/2014 11:27:40 PM
In article <le8lf2$781$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
<susano@example.com> wrote:

> 
> > Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
> > some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> 
> I don't have data on my Android phones, but that's only because
> I don't want to pay the extra money for a data plan.

tmobile offers 200 meg free and all ipad plans are pay as you go
anyway. there is no contract or yearly commitment.

> > Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can 
> > maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).
> 
> This is interesting because I already have a Windows Microsoft Office
> 2007 which isn't being used. I'm not sure what "parallels" means though.

parallels and vmware are apps that let you run windows software on a
mac.

if you're not using microsoft office then you probably don't need a
laptop. 

there is also an ipad version of microsoft office coming soon.
0
nospam
2/21/2014 11:27:41 PM
On 2014.02.21, 17:42 , bj wrote:
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>
>> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
>> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
>>
>
> You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.

You do not need emphasis in simple English sentences.

My sentence was ambiguous in that sense, but really, methinks the lady 
will know that or have it explained to her at the store.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/21/2014 11:53:37 PM
On 2014.02.21, 17:54 , Susan O'Reilly wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 17:32:32 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> Kinda bizarre that they would offer you two iPads.  That aside:
>
> The gift was a decision by committee, given how much money they
> had amassed. They told me I can change it out for anything I wanted
> that was equal or lesser value anyway. It would be rude to just
> swap it out for money, so, I will try to fulfill their request.
>
>> IMO a MacBook Air is much more versatile.  I don't like the smaller
>> version (11") - I'd go for the 13".  Then of course, it's not as
>> portable as an iPad of any size - but still very portable, thin and
>> relatively light.
>
> This is good advice, especially as I don't have a laptop yet.
>
>> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though
>> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
>
> I don't have data on my Android phones, but that's only because
> I don't want to pay the extra money for a data plan.
>
>> Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can
>> maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).
>
> This is interesting because I already have a Windows Microsoft Office
> 2007 which isn't being used. I'm not sure what "parallels" means though.

Mac's don't run s/w compiled for PC's.  You can run your Mac in 
"Bootcamp" mode and load Windows (not sure if it will still run WinXP, 
but certainly Vista thru Win 8).

Better, however, is to virtualize Windows and run both OS X and Windows 
simultaneously.  VMWare Fusion and Parallels are the two most popular 
packages for this.  They go for $50 - $60 or so.  Parallels is at 
present the "faster" of the two - though you probably wouldn't notice 
the difference for most purposes.

The key point is you can run windows programs, drag and drop files 
between each OS, cut and paste and so on between the two.  Quite ideal 
for someone new to OS X and who has "baggage" to drag from the Windows 
world.

You do have to have a license for the Windows, btw.  But if you have a 
PC at home that you're decommissioning you could use that license.

(Not sure if that's valid for Win 8.  Microsoft have gone bananas with 
licenses of late (OTOH - a Max OS X license is good for all the Macs in 
the house - and as of OS X 10.9 the price is very modest $0.00)).

BEWARE:  Once you go Mac, you never go bac.

-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 12:01:48 AM
In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.

It does not *mean* this, OP can still use it with the wifi at here 
home or anywhere where there is wifi access. There are cheap prepaid 
sims for when travelling.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/22/2014 12:03:22 AM
On 2014.02.21, 18:27 , nospam wrote:
> In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media,
>> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.
>
> ipads do much, much more than that.

I never said that was a limit.  Just suggested as a "style" of use.

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 12:03:28 AM
In article <S-6dnfUvtYWfeprOnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
> >> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> >>
> >
> > You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.
> 
> You do not need emphasis in simple English sentences.

the emphasis was because there is no subscription required, nor has
there ever been.

some carriers do offer shared plans for multiple devices, but that too
is optional.

some users may find such a plan cost-effective while others are better
served by a normal pay as you go plan, especially for occasional use,
which if her cellphone lacks data, is almost certainly the case. 

> My sentence was ambiguous in that sense, but really, methinks the lady 
> will know that or have it explained to her at the store.

they might, but she was asking here.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 12:17:27 AM
In article <rIOdnQPZ_cfNdJrOnZ2dnUVZ_j-dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media,
> >> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.
> >
> > ipads do much, much more than that.
> 
> I never said that was a limit.  Just suggested as a "style" of use.

however, it's not the only style of use. 

ipads are limited only by one's imagination. 

what matters is what she excepts to be doing with it.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 12:17:28 AM
In article <le8lf2$781$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
<susano@example.com> wrote:
> 
<snip>
>  
> > Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can 
> > maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).
> 
> This is interesting because I already have a Windows Microsoft Office
> 2007 which isn't being used. I'm not sure what "parallels" means though.

"Parallels Desktop" is a software option for running Windows software
under Mac OS X. It does so by creating a virtual / pretend Windows
computer inside the Mac. Another similar option is VMWare Fusion, and
niether are free. Since both use a pretend Windows computer sharing the
Mac OS X resources they aren't quite as fast as a real Windows
computer, but should be easily capable of running Microsoft Office and
similar Windows software. (There are some similar free software
options, but they aren't as polished nor as easy to set up.)

The Mac itself comes with Apple's free Bootcamp, which lets you install
and run Windows on a Mac in the same way as any real Windows computer,
so is full speed and has is not sharing use of the Mac's resources ...
but you do have to reboot the computer to switch between Mac OS X and
Windows.

In all of these cases you do need a licenced version of Windows and any
Windows software you want to use.
0
Your
2/22/2014 12:38:38 AM
Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:

> On 2014.02.21, 17:42 , bj wrote:
> > Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
> >> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> >>
> >
> > You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.
> 
> You do not need emphasis in simple English sentences.
> 
> My sentence was ambiguous in that sense, but really, methinks the lady
> will know that or have it explained to her at the store.

I'm quite sure that you knew what you meant and that you meant the
correct thing when you wrote that sentence.

Nevertheless, this is actually a common point of confusion (that
having a cellular modem in your iPad ties you to extra fees) so it is
not unreasonable for that point to have been made.
0
Doug
2/22/2014 12:47:13 AM
In article <le8ivs$12k$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
<susano@example.com> wrote:
> 
> I know nothing about Apple products!
> 
> I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
> 1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB 
> 2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
> 
> The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows 
> for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
> to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.
> 
> Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?
> 
> Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I 
> only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really 
> use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).
> 
> What would you recommend?
> (Where is the right place to ask this advice?)   

I'm not sure why you'd want two iPads. Best to play with each model in
a store and see which screen size and quality, and device weight suits
you best. Then maybe swap the unwanted iPad for a suitable keyboard
cover instead and/or an iPad model with more storage space.

Whether you need an iPad or a laptop depends entirely on what you want
to use the device for. 

For email and web browsing, playing music and movies, and reading
ebooks, the iPad is fine. There's also a lot more simple games and it
can do fairly undemanding office work without much problem. With extra
apps you can also connect to the Windows PC and run its software,
controlling it remotely via the iPad, although the touch-interface can
make some things difficult.

The iPad cannot run Adobe Flash, so if you *need* Flash features on any
websites you visit, then it's probably better to use a laptop (there
are ways around it on the iPad, but it's a bit cumbersome).

If you need proper office software, then a laptop is still currently a
better choice.

If you don't need portability, then a Mac Mini might even be an idea
(using your existing PC's keyboard, mouse, and display).
0
Your
2/22/2014 12:48:21 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
>> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media, 
>> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.
> 
> ipads do much, much more than that.
> 
>> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
>> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> 
> no subscription is required. all ipads are pay as you go. they are also
> unlocked so you can use any carrier you want.
> 
> activate the data plan when you need it and deactivate when you don't.
> 
> and t-mobile offers a free plan so for casual use, it's $0.

After jumping through multiple hoops and being passed from one person to
another multiple times I learned that the free data and on and off plans
are only for inside US use for T-Mobile .  Since a major reason for getting
cellular for my iPad Air was to use it on foreign trips, I have to have a
regular account, and if I cancel it later, I have to go buy and install a
new SIM or REALLY jump through a long and convoluted set of hoops.  

Nevertheless, the iPad is a lovely beast 8-)


-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 12:49:33 AM
Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> writes:

> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> > <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > 
> >> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media, 
> >> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.
> > 
> > ipads do much, much more than that.
> > 
> >> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
> >> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
> > 
> > no subscription is required. all ipads are pay as you go. they are also
> > unlocked so you can use any carrier you want.
> > 
> > activate the data plan when you need it and deactivate when you don't.
> > 
> > and t-mobile offers a free plan so for casual use, it's $0.
> 
> After jumping through multiple hoops and being passed from one person to
> another multiple times I learned that the free data and on and off plans
> are only for inside US use for T-Mobile .  Since a major reason for getting
> cellular for my iPad Air was to use it on foreign trips, I have to have a
> regular account, and if I cancel it later, I have to go buy and install a
> new SIM or REALLY jump through a long and convoluted set of hoops.  

So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
European countries.  

Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!

0
Doug
2/22/2014 1:00:11 AM
In article <slrnlgi7aj.22tr.g.kreme@oswin.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.

nope.

the verizon ipad 2 and the verizon iphone 4 do not have sims because
they are cdma-only devices. both have gps. 

the iphone 4s had a sim, but it was for international gsm roaming. it
was *not* for domestic use on verizon cdma. there was no lte.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2/21/2014 8:00 PM, Doug Anderson wrote:
> So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> European countries.
>
> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!

ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a 
reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by 
that SIM card provider
0
Zaidy036
2/22/2014 1:07:38 AM
In article <le8s6t$8il$1@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> After jumping through multiple hoops and being passed from one person to
> another multiple times I learned that the free data and on and off plans
> are only for inside US use for T-Mobile .  Since a major reason for getting
> cellular for my iPad Air was to use it on foreign trips, I have to have a
> regular account, and if I cancel it later, I have to go buy and install a
> new SIM or REALLY jump through a long and convoluted set of hoops.  

since their free data plan is free, there's no reason not to get it.
use it while in the usa and swap in another sim for when you travel. 

t-mobile also has a free international messaging plan. 

i don't know if the free data plan will work overseas, but you can't be
charged for it so you have nothing to lose by trying. chances are it
won't work since international roaming is usually $$$, but if it does,
all the better.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 1:10:17 AM
In article <le8t92$bkd$1@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
wrote:

> > So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > European countries.
> >
> > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> 
> ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a 
> reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by 
> that SIM card provider

depends on the plan. 

t-mobile gold users only need to pay $10/year, which is dirt cheap to
keep active for occasional use.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 1:11:48 AM
On 2/21/2014 5:54 PM, Susan O'Reilly wrote:
> I don't have data on my Android phones, but that's only because
> I don't want to pay the extra money for a data plan.

either iPad can be tethered (connected) to a phone that has that 
capability and share a data plan.

Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
0
Zaidy036
2/22/2014 1:12:09 AM
On 2014.02.21, 19:38 , Your Name wrote:
> In article <le8lf2$781$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
> <susano@example.com> wrote:
>>
> <snip>
>>
>>> Or the MBA 13" with 8 GB of RAM + (Parallels + Windows 7) - so you can
>>> maintain some s/w that you already have (perhaps).
>>
>> This is interesting because I already have a Windows Microsoft Office
>> 2007 which isn't being used. I'm not sure what "parallels" means though.
>
> "Parallels Desktop" is a software option for running Windows software
> under Mac OS X. It does so by creating a virtual / pretend Windows
> computer inside the Mac. Another similar option is VMWare Fusion, and
> niether are free. Since both use a pretend Windows computer sharing the
> Mac OS X resources they aren't quite as fast as a real Windows

In fact they are so fast on recent h/w (most of the intel Macs from the 
get start) such as Mme. O'Reilly is likely to buy that you would not 
know that it wasn't on standalone hardware.  For tasks such as Word it's 
not noticeable at all.

(Sole caveat: The only people with a smidgen of claim are "gamers" who 
need raw power for the whole gaming experience.  They on the other hand 
are more likely to buy high end Windows PC platforms and eschew Macs 
that don't have the raw power and overclocking that gamers "need").

> The Mac itself comes with Apple's free Bootcamp, which lets you install
> and run Windows on a Mac in the same way as any real Windows computer,
> so is full speed and has is not sharing use of the Mac's resources ...
> but you do have to reboot the computer to switch between Mac OS X and
> Windows.

Which is why bootcamp is a pretty useless way to go about the enterprise.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 1:41:40 AM
In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
wrote:

> > I don't have data on my Android phones, but that's only because
> > I don't want to pay the extra money for a data plan.
> 
> either iPad can be tethered (connected) to a phone that has that 
> capability and share a data plan.

except her android phone doesn't have data, and you can't beat
t-mobile's free plan for casual use.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 1:42:50 AM
In article <anfvncufl0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I had the impression you could
> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> European countries.  
> 
> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!

In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...

1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.

2. Slip in the new SIM.

That's the basics.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/22/2014 1:44:39 AM
In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> 
wrote:

> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available

Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost 
you to use a local SIM.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/22/2014 1:46:24 AM
On 2014-02-22, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> 
> wrote:
>
>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
>
> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost 
> you to use a local SIM.

Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
personal hotspot instead.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/22/2014 1:49:52 AM
On 2014-02-22, Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> writes:
>
>> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> > In article <T-CdnYh-ZricSZrOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
>> > <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> > 
>> >> If your needs are more for surfing, listening to music, watching media, 
>> >> then an iPad is perhaps all you need.
>> > 
>> > ipads do much, much more than that.
>> > 
>> >> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though 
>> >> some carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
>> > 
>> > no subscription is required. all ipads are pay as you go. they are also
>> > unlocked so you can use any carrier you want.
>> > 
>> > activate the data plan when you need it and deactivate when you don't.
>> > 
>> > and t-mobile offers a free plan so for casual use, it's $0.
>> 
>> After jumping through multiple hoops and being passed from one person to
>> another multiple times I learned that the free data and on and off plans
>> are only for inside US use for T-Mobile .  Since a major reason for getting
>> cellular for my iPad Air was to use it on foreign trips, I have to have a
>> regular account, and if I cancel it later, I have to go buy and install a
>> new SIM or REALLY jump through a long and convoluted set of hoops.  
>
> So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> European countries.  
>
> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!

I'm pretty sure this is what a family member living in Germany does.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/22/2014 1:51:21 AM
On 2014.02.21, 19:47 , Doug Anderson wrote:
> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> writes:
>
>> On 2014.02.21, 17:42 , bj wrote:
>>> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
>>>> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.
>>
>> You do not need emphasis in simple English sentences.
>>
>> My sentence was ambiguous in that sense, but really, methinks the lady
>> will know that or have it explained to her at the store.
>
> I'm quite sure that you knew what you meant and that you meant the
> correct thing when you wrote that sentence.

No, I was not clear in my statement.  OTOH it's important to feed the 
tiny egos of a few people about, so my sacrifice was not in vain...

But if that is the desired mode, then one may as well get the WiFi only 
version.  There's all the hoopla over travel - when I'm in Europe I 
occasionally get an Orange (or other co) 1 week WiFi pass.  Not perfect 
but enough to get data in and out of my iPhone or laptop a couple times 
a day (when not at a hotel) w/o obsessing over being connected 100% of 
the time - I don't have time for that in any case.

> Nevertheless, this is actually a common point of confusion (that
> having a cellular modem in your iPad ties you to extra fees) so it is
> not unreasonable for that point to have been made.

I was ambiguous and I've booked time with the local whipmaster to be 
appropriately punished for my sloppiness.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 1:51:57 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> In article <le8t92$bkd$1@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
> wrote:
> 
> > > So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > European countries.
> > >
> > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > 
> > ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a 
> > reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by 
> > that SIM card provider
> 
> depends on the plan. 
> 
> t-mobile gold users only need to pay $10/year, which is dirt cheap to
> keep active for occasional use.

How much data do they get for $10 per year, and is there an extra
charge, and what countries does it work in?

0
Doug
2/22/2014 1:56:55 AM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:

> In article <anfvncufl0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I had the impression you could
> > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > European countries.  
> > 
> > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> 
> In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
> Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
> 
> 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
> 
> 2. Slip in the new SIM.

That's not the hard part of the algorithm.

Where do you get the SIM, and how much do you pay (for the SIM,
whatever plan you need, and data)?
 
> That's the basics.

No, that's the easy part.  
0
Doug
2/22/2014 1:58:40 AM
On 2014.02.21, 20:49 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-02-22, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
>>
>> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
>> you to use a local SIM.
>
> Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
> staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
> personal hotspot instead.

The answer of course is "because they'll pay" - mostly on exp. accounts.

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 2:03:07 AM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <le8s6t$8il$1@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
>> After jumping through multiple hoops and being passed from one person to
>> another multiple times I learned that the free data and on and off plans
>> are only for inside US use for T-Mobile .  Since a major reason for getting
>> cellular for my iPad Air was to use it on foreign trips, I have to have a
>> regular account, and if I cancel it later, I have to go buy and install a
>> new SIM or REALLY jump through a long and convoluted set of hoops.  
> 
> since their free data plan is free, there's no reason not to get it.
> use it while in the usa and swap in another sim for when you travel. 
> 
> t-mobile also has a free international messaging plan. 
> 
> i don't know if the free data plan will work overseas, but you can't be
> charged for it so you have nothing to lose by trying. chances are it
> won't work since international roaming is usually $$$, but if it does,
> all the better.

When I talked to T-Mobile, THEY told me the free data was only available in
the US, with a plan that did not allow international use in any way, shape
or form. 
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 2:23:38 AM
Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
> On 2/21/2014 8:00 PM, Doug Anderson wrote:
>> So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
>> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
>> European countries.
>> 
>> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
>> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> 
> ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a
> reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by
> that SIM card provider

It's not very useful for a multi-country trip.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 2:23:39 AM
On 2014-02-22, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> On 2014.02.21, 20:49 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2014-02-22, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
>>>
>>> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
>>> you to use a local SIM.
>>
>> Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
>> staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
>> personal hotspot instead.
>
> The answer of course is "because they'll pay" - mostly on exp. accounts.

The answer to what? I certainly *won't* pay, as I said. Ain't gonna
happen. If I need WiFi that badly, I can find one for free at a fast
food joint or some such place.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/22/2014 2:54:22 AM
In article <gjr46vykkv.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > I had the impression you could
> > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > European countries.  
> > > 
> > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > 
> > In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
> > Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
> > 
> > 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
> > 
> > 2. Slip in the new SIM.
> 
> That's not the hard part of the algorithm.
> 
> Where do you get the SIM,

the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
touristy location. 

and you can do this in the usa too, although i haven't seen kiosks. yet.

> and how much do you pay (for the SIM,
> whatever plan you need, and data)?

prices vary for different plans. shop around. 

did you have a specific country in mind?

> > That's the basics.
> 
> No, that's the easy part.  

the easy part is buying the sim.

the hard part is inserting it into the ipad. those sims are *tiny*.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:09 AM
In article <xLudnb40Xcsjn5XOnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> But if that is the desired mode, then one may as well get the WiFi only 
> version. 

no, because the wifi only ipads do not have a gps.

since activating the cellular is not required, there is no downside in
getting a cellular ipad, other than $129 more. the resale value of a
cellular ipad is higher so the true cost is actually less. 

if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:11 AM
In article <wswqgnykns.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> > > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > > European countries.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > > 
> > > ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a 
> > > reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by 
> > > that SIM card provider
> > 
> > depends on the plan. 
> > 
> > t-mobile gold users only need to pay $10/year, which is dirt cheap to
> > keep active for occasional use.
> 
> How much data do they get for $10 per year, 

none. 

the $10/year is to keep the account active. if you don't renew, it
expires. 

you have to choose a plan that includes whatever combination of voice,
text and data that you want. you also have to fund it to pay for the
plan.

you need to fund it with $100 to qualify for gold, and that can be done
all at once (best way) or as little as $10 every 3 months (not the best
way).

> and is there an extra
> charge,

yes.

there are many plans, including $2/day for unlimited voice/text/data at
2g speeds or $3/day for 3g/4g speeds for the first 200 meg and then 2g
speeds after that. 

there are also monthly plans with various amounts of voice/text/data,
including a $30/mo unlimited text/data & 100 min voice plan, but it's a
bit hidden. 

for the times you aren't using data at all, switch out of the daily or
monthly plan to the pay per use plan, and don't use it (no data at
all).

you can switch plans at any time.

depending on usage patterns, $10 could last a year or more, or it could
last a few days. 

> and what countries does it work in?

this is for usa.

there may be international packages available for an additional cost
(don't remember), but if you are going overseas, you really want a
local sim for wherever you go. roaming is *not* cheap. 

the above is for any t-mobile compatible mobile device.


for tablets only, there is the 200 meg/month for free plan. no strings
attached. none. for casual use, this can't be beat. for more than 200
meg, you'll need other options.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:13 AM
In article <ZZOdnX1yrLXBmJXOnZ2dnUVZ_rWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
> >>
> >> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
> >> you to use a local SIM.
> >
> > Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
> > staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
> > personal hotspot instead.
> 
> The answer of course is "because they'll pay" - mostly on exp. accounts.

exactly. 

generally it's upscale hotels that charge for wifi because they cater
to business travelers who aren't paying for it anyway. 

the cheaper hotels usually offer free wifi, but it usually sucks.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:15 AM
In article <le91n9$vfi$1@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> When I talked to T-Mobile, THEY told me the free data was only available in
> the US, with a plan that did not allow international use in any way, shape
> or form.

t-mobile says a lot of things. whether any of them are true or not is
mostly coincidence.

activating a ipad data plan (for any carrier) is normally very simple.
just go to the cellular data section in settings and activate it. done.
for t-mobile's free plan, you don't even need to give a credit card
number.

however, mine didn't work quite as smoothly, for some reason, so i had
to call t-mobile and ended up talking to many different idiots in many
different departments, all but one of whom were completely wrong and
they each had a different story.

they told me there was no free plan, the free plan was a promo for 1
year, the free plan required a deposit, the free plan was only
available to existing t-mobile customers, it only worked with special
sims that i had to buy at a store and i don't remember what else. 

finally, after about a half hour, i got someone who knew what i was
talking about. he asked for the iccid of my sim and then activated it.
he didn't know why it didn't work like it was supposed to, but once i
talked to someone with a clue, it took about a minute to resolve. 

even though they told you it won't work overseas, there's a nonzero
chance that the person was wrong.

that said, it *probably* won't work because of roaming issues, but
since there's no way you can be charged anything for trying (they don't
require a credit card number or even a name to activate it), there's no
harm in trying. if it doesn't work, no loss. if it does, all the
better.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:18 AM
In article <le91na$vfi$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> It's not very useful for a multi-country trip.

there are multi-country sims.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:20 AM
In article <bmqhquF9568U1@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> >>> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
> >>> you to use a local SIM.
> >>
> >> Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
> >> staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
> >> personal hotspot instead.
> >
> > The answer of course is "because they'll pay" - mostly on exp. accounts.
> 
> The answer to what? I certainly *won't* pay, as I said. Ain't gonna
> happen. If I need WiFi that badly, I can find one for free at a fast
> food joint or some such place.

the answer to why they charge.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 3:02:21 AM
On Feb/21/2014 8:4952 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-02-22, dorayme<do_ray_me@bigpond.com>  wrote:
>> In article<le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036<Zaidy036@isp.spam>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
>>
>> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
>> you to use a local SIM.
>
> Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
> staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
> personal hotspot instead.
>


I presume you are describing domestic travel. If you mean foreign 
travel, too, how do you assure that your purchased SIM card provides 
personal hotspot? I ask from recent experience: traveling in Switzerland 
and France, I bought a Swiss card that provided hot spot service, but 
when I got to France my French wasn't good enough to get me an Orange 
card that provided personal hotspot service.


I hope this isn't off-topic, because I am talking about SIM cards for my 
iPhone, not my iPad. I intended to be able to use the phone hot spot for 
the iPad, as I do where domestic wi-fi is inadequate.


-- 
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>    ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>   ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/    ||
||    Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso  ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
0
AV3
2/22/2014 3:21:01 AM
On 21 Feb 2014 17:00:11 -0800, Doug Anderson wrote:

>  I had the impression you could
> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> European countries.  
> 
> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!

Varies from country to country. For Poland, 20 polish zlotys (7 or 8 USD)
will get you an "Orange Free na karte" starter SIM good for *both* a GB or
2 of data *and* 20 zlotys worth of air time (at 0.29 zloty per minute).
Good for one month. Domestic only. (Foreign roaming is hellishly dear.)

Carrier, obviously, is Polish Orange. But Play has a similar offer.

Other countries? I have no idea, sorry. HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/22/2014 3:42:35 AM
On 2014-02-21 23:53:37 +0000, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> said:

> On 2014.02.21, 17:42 , bj wrote:
>> Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Beware that an iPad with Cellular means a data subscription - though some
>>> carriers allow several devices to share so much bandwidth as a pool.
>>> 
>> 
>> You do *not* have to sign up for a data plan for a cell-able iPad.
> 
> You do not need emphasis in simple English sentences.
> 
> My sentence was ambiguous in that sense, but really, methinks the lady 
> will know that or have it explained to her at the store.

I have a Wi-Fi + cell Verizon iPad, and I have yet to purchase any 
bandwidth, which I can buy in various increments if, or whenever 
needed. I have used my iPhone *Personal Hotspot* for my iPad several 
times and find that it gives me reasonable connectivity. Otherwise most 
of my iPad work and sharing is via my home Wi-Fi network.

Her actual needs are going to dictate her choice of one, or another, or 
both of these iPads, or a laptop. At this stage the more versatile 
choice might well be an MBA. What would be a nice combo would be an MBA 
& one of the iPads.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/22/2014 6:33:37 AM
In article <201402212233376249-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> I have a Wi-Fi + cell Verizon iPad, and I have yet to purchase any 
> bandwidth, which I can buy in various increments if, or whenever 
> needed. I have used my iPhone *Personal Hotspot* for my iPad several 
> times and find that it gives me reasonable connectivity. Otherwise most 
> of my iPad work and sharing is via my home Wi-Fi network.

unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
and avoid the hassles of tethering. 

if you're on wifi most of the time, 200 meg goes a long way.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 7:50:24 AM
On 21/02/2014 22:12, Susan O'Reilly wrote:
> I know nothing about Apple products!
>
> I received, as a retirement gift, a pickup order at the Apple store for:
> 1. iPad Air Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
> 2. iPad mini w Retina display Wi-Fi + Cellular for T-Mobile 64GB
>
> The gift is sort of a joke, because I've been complaining about Windows
> for the last decade, and more recently, about Android - but now I have
> to make a decision because everyone chipped in for two iPads for me.
>
> Should I pick up these two items, or, should I get a laptop instead?
>
> Note: I don't have data on my T-Mobile Android 4.3 cellphone and I
> only have a Windows desktop with WiFi at home, so I can't really
> use two iPads (although I can let the grandkids play with it).
>
> What would you recommend?
> (Where is the right place to ask this advice?)	

As I mentioned over in the Android group:

I'm not an Apple fan, having no Macs here and a few Windows PCs.  What I 
do find is that taking the iPad round is a lot easier than the laptop (I 
have a netbook which works well), and I echo many of Wolf K's comments. 
  I also recent bought an Android table (Nexus 7 2013) and find that I 
tend to take that now rather than the iPad as the smaller size fits in a 
pocket (just).

As the iPads will allow you to use applications you purchase (or get 
free) on either of them, I might be inclined to retain both and use them 
both, but that's coming from having the netbook to take on holiday and 
use at a hotel on in a ship's cabin.  So if you aren't in the habit of 
taking a notebook etc. on holiday, forget the laptop, but perhaps get 
the Camera Adapter for the iPad so that you can backup your camera 
pictures from an SD card onto the iPad.

-- 
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
2/22/2014 7:51:09 AM
On Fri, 21 Feb 2014 22:02:11 -0500, nospam wrote:

> if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.

Thanks for pointing out location considerations, as in-car routing 
is intriguing, and it's something I already do with the MapFactor
Navigator offline free mapping application on my Moto-G Android 
cellphone today (Navigator doesn't require a cellular data signal).

I am confused what people *meant* by GPS though,, so, I found this 
discussion about whether the cellular iPads have "true" GPS nor not:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4465169

That article explained the three types of "location" signal:
- Satellite triangulation  <=== this would be nice
- Cellular telephone network triangulation <=== this won't work for me
- Internet WiFi triangulation <=== I doubt this is practically useful

According to that article, the Wifi+Cellular iPads have the GPS receiver, 
so that would be an important consideration, yet, when I look at Apple
specifications, there is not a *clear* mention of a GPS chip:
 https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/

That specification site simply says that the cellular iPads have:
 Assisted GPS and GLONASS

What is *assisted* GPS?

More importantly, is assisted GPS the same as *real* GPS?

0
Susan
2/22/2014 12:10:49 PM
On 22/02/2014 12:10, Susan O'Reilly wrote:
[]
> That specification site simply says that the cellular iPads have:
>   Assisted GPS and GLONASS
>
> What is *assisted* GPS?
>
> More importantly, is assisted GPS the same as *real* GPS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS

also:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wide_Area_Augmentation_System

-- 
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
2/22/2014 12:23:55 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <le91na$vfi$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
>> It's not very useful for a multi-country trip.
> 
> there are multi-country sims.

Well, part of the time on the river cruise(I remember it only working near
large cities on the last one) and in the hotel in London I supposedly have
free Wi-fi and there'll be no particular urgency in either 8-)
--
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 1:51:35 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <le91n9$vfi$1@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
>> When I talked to T-Mobile, THEY told me the free data was only available in
>> the US, with a plan that did not allow international use in any way, shape
>> or form.
> 
> t-mobile says a lot of things. whether any of them are true or not is
> mostly coincidence.
> 
> activating a ipad data plan (for any carrier) is normally very simple.
> just go to the cellular data section in settings and activate it. done.
> for t-mobile's free plan, you don't even need to give a credit card
> number.
> 
> however, mine didn't work quite as smoothly, for some reason, so i had
> to call t-mobile and ended up talking to many different idiots in many
> different departments, all but one of whom were completely wrong and
> they each had a different story.
> 
> they told me there was no free plan, the free plan was a promo for 1
> year, the free plan required a deposit, the free plan was only
> available to existing t-mobile customers, it only worked with special
> sims that i had to buy at a store and i don't remember what else. 
> 
> finally, after about a half hour, i got someone who knew what i was
> talking about. he asked for the iccid of my sim and then activated it.
> he didn't know why it didn't work like it was supposed to, but once i
> talked to someone with a clue, it took about a minute to resolve. 
> 
> even though they told you it won't work overseas, there's a nonzero
> chance that the person was wrong.
> 
> that said, it *probably* won't work because of roaming issues, but
> since there's no way you can be charged anything for trying (they don't
> require a credit card number or even a name to activate it), there's no
> harm in trying. if it doesn't work, no loss. if it does, all the
> better.

I just saved this on this iPad for reference when I next argue with
T-Mobile 8-) 
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 1:51:36 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> .
> 
> there are many plans, including $2/day for unlimited voice/text/data at
> 2g speeds or $3/day for 3g/4g speeds for the first 200 meg and then 2g
> speeds after that. 
> 
> there are also monthly plans with various amounts of voice/text/data,
> including a $30/mo unlimited text/data & 100 min voice plan, but it's a
> bit hidden. 
> 
> for the times you aren't using data at all, switch out of the daily or
> monthly plan to the pay per use plan, and don't use it (no data at
> all).
> 
> you can switch plans at any time.

This is what they did NOT admit as a possibility on the phone. Or is this
the usa-only system again?
> 
> depending on usage patterns, $10 could last a year or more, or it could
> last a few days. 
> 
>> and what countries does it work in?
> 
> this is for usa.
> 
> there may be international packages available for an additional cost
> (don't remember), but if you are going overseas, you really want a
> local sim for wherever you go. roaming is *not* cheap. 

Just to check a map or info?
> 
> the above is for any t-mobile compatible mobile device.
> 
> 
> for tablets only, there is the 200 meg/month for free plan. no strings
> attached. none. for casual use, this can't be beat. for more than 200
> meg, you'll need other options.

The key question for me is whether I can switch out of the "pay afterwards"
plan after my trip, which I was told was not an option.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 1:51:37 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <xLudnb40Xcsjn5XOnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> 
>> But if that is the desired mode, then one may as well get the WiFi only 
>> version. 
> 
> no, because the wifi only ipads do not have a gps.
> 
> since activating the cellular is not required, there is no downside in
> getting a cellular ipad, other than $129 more. the resale value of a
> cellular ipad is higher so the true cost is actually less. 
> 
> if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.

Thank you! I was unclear on that.
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 1:51:38 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <gjr46vykkv.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>>> I had the impression you could
>>>> easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
>>>> European countries.  
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
>>>> know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
>>> 
>>> In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
>>> Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
>>> 
>>> 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
>>> 
>>> 2. Slip in the new SIM.
>> 
>> That's not the hard part of the algorithm.
>> 
>> Where do you get the SIM,
> 
> the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> touristy location. 
> 
> and you can do this in the usa too, although i haven't seen kiosks. yet.
> 
>> and how much do you pay (for the SIM,
>> whatever plan you need, and data)?
> 
> prices vary for different plans. shop around. 
> 
> did you have a specific country in mind?
> 
>>> That's the basics.
>> 
>> No, that's the easy part.  
> 
> the easy part is buying the sim.
> 
> the hard part is inserting it into the ipad. those sims are *tiny*.

I can't even figure out where it might be 8-)

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 1:51:39 PM
On 2014.02.21, 21:54 , Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2014-02-22, Alan Browne <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>> On 2014.02.21, 20:49 , Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-22, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <le8thg$bkd$2@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Remembe, when traveling, it is cheapest to use Wi-Fi where available
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes hotels charge much more to use their wifi than it would cost
>>>> you to use a local SIM.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I refuse to pay for hotel WiFi just on principle. If I end up
>>> staying at such a hotel, I almost always end up using my phone as a
>>> personal hotspot instead.
>>
>> The answer of course is "because they'll pay" - mostly on exp. accounts.
>
> The answer to what? I certainly *won't* pay, as I said. Ain't gonna
> happen. If I need WiFi that badly, I can find one for free at a fast
> food joint or some such place.

Should have been clear enough in context:  cheaper hotels offer free 
WiFi.  Expensive hotels often charge - business travelers are on exp. 
acct. and people on company exp. acct. are not especially diligent 
'savers' - unless it's their own co.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 3:25:53 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> In article <gjr46vykkv.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > I had the impression you could
> > > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > > European countries.  
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > > 
> > > In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
> > > Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
> > > 
> > > 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
> > > 
> > > 2. Slip in the new SIM.
> > 
> > That's not the hard part of the algorithm.
> > 
> > Where do you get the SIM,
> 
> the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> touristy location. 


The usual non-answer.

My question, is does anyone know of an example of a country and
carrier (let's say in Europe) where one can cheaply purchase a SIM and
a moderate amount of prepaid data.

If you do, what country, what carrier, and what is the cost per MB or
GB or whatever unit?
0
Doug
2/22/2014 3:29:48 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> In article <wswqgnykns.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > > So you can't do this in the US, but I had the impression you could
> > > > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > > > European countries.
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > > > 
> > > > ture but it is usually only worth it if your are going to use it for a 
> > > > reasonable period of time OR are a repeat visiter to the area served by 
> > > > that SIM card provider
> > > 
> > > depends on the plan. 
> > > 
> > > t-mobile gold users only need to pay $10/year, which is dirt cheap to
> > > keep active for occasional use.
> > 
> > How much data do they get for $10 per year, 
> 
> none. 
> 
> the $10/year is to keep the account active. if you don't renew, it
> expires. 
> 
> you have to choose a plan that includes whatever combination of voice,
> text and data that you want. you also have to fund it to pay for the
> plan.
> 
> you need to fund it with $100 to qualify for gold, and that can be done
> all at once (best way) or as little as $10 every 3 months (not the best
> way).

So this is fairly expensive if you are an occasional or one time
visitor to the US because of the $100.

0
Doug
2/22/2014 3:31:40 PM
On 2014.02.22, 07:10 , Susan O'Reilly wrote:

> What is *assisted* GPS?
>
> More importantly, is assisted GPS the same as *real* GPS?

There are real GPS receivers in the iPad, however,

- they are run at a lower rate to save energy.
- the GPS antenna in an iPad or iPhone (or smartphone) is not optimal 
either so some aiding comes to the rescue.

Cellphone tower ranging gives a quick position solution and helps the 
GPS acquire weak signals quicker by positioning the correlators close to 
where they should be to track the GPS signals.

(Cell tower positioning alone is accurate enough if there are a 
sufficient number of towers in range and there is good geometry.  In 
sparsely settled areas don't expect miracles).

GLONASS is the Russian satellite nav service.  Very similar to US GPS in 
form and accuracy.  In a few years you'll be hearing more about Galileo 
(Europe) and Beidou (China) being added to smartphones/iPads and the like.

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 3:43:50 PM
On 2014.02.21, 22:02 , nospam wrote:
> In article <xLudnb40Xcsjn5XOnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> But if that is the desired mode, then one may as well get the WiFi only
>> version.
>
> no, because the wifi only ipads do not have a gps.
>
> since activating the cellular is not required, there is no downside in
> getting a cellular ipad, other than $129 more. the resale value of a
> cellular ipad is higher so the true cost is actually less.
>
> if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.

That's a good point.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 3:44:40 PM
On 2014.02.21, 22:02 , nospam wrote:
> In article <xLudnb40Xcsjn5XOnZ2dnUVZ_g6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>> But if that is the desired mode, then one may as well get the WiFi only
>> version.
>
> no, because the wifi only ipads do not have a gps.
>
> since activating the cellular is not required, there is no downside in
> getting a cellular ipad, other than $129 more. the resale value of a
> cellular ipad is higher so the true cost is actually less.
>
> if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.

Addendum:

That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth 
GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go 
with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.


-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 3:46:39 PM
On 2014-02-22 07:50:24 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> In article <201402212233376249-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have a Wi-Fi + cell Verizon iPad, and I have yet to purchase any
>> bandwidth, which I can buy in various increments if, or whenever
>> needed. I have used my iPhone *Personal Hotspot* for my iPad several
>> times and find that it gives me reasonable connectivity. Otherwise most
>> of my iPad work and sharing is via my home Wi-Fi network.
> 
> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
> and avoid the hassles of tethering.

Verizon iPad 2 64GB, no SIM slot.
I am not particularly bothered with turning the hotspot on my iPhone on 
or off. and if for some reason I actually need to get some dedicated 
cell bandwidth, it is simple enough to buy some.
One of these days i might upgrade to a newer iPad, but this one is 
doing a fine job without issue.

> if you're on wifi most of the time, 200 meg goes a long way.

With my Verizon iPhone data plan I have plenty of leeway, and that is 
with my *Step daughter from Hell* piggie-backing on that plan. What I 
am not going to do is give Verizon another $10/month to include my iPad 
as a shared device.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/22/2014 4:03:11 PM
In article <lea449$fcl$1@speranza.aioe.org>, Susan O'Reilly
<susano@example.com> wrote:

> > if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> > you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.
> 
> Thanks for pointing out location considerations, as in-car routing 
> is intriguing, and it's something I already do with the MapFactor
> Navigator offline free mapping application on my Moto-G Android 
> cellphone today (Navigator doesn't require a cellular data signal).

an ipad in the car is *really* useful for navigation because of the
display size

mounting it, however, is a bit tricky. that's a plus for the mini
versus the air. it's a lot easier to mount an 8" device than a 10"
device.

and as with your moto g, the ipad does not need a cellular data signal
for navigation unless the app pulls maps over the air. the built in
maps app does, but there are many third party apps (some free, some
not) that include maps.

> I am confused what people *meant* by GPS though,, so, I found this 
> discussion about whether the cellular iPads have "true" GPS nor not:
> https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4465169

all iphones and cellular ipads have a real gps.

ipod touches and wifi-only ipads do not have a gps.

> That article explained the three types of "location" signal:
> - Satellite triangulation  <=== this would be nice

that's the gps part

> - Cellular telephone network triangulation <=== this won't work for me

yes it will. you don't need an active cellular account. 

all it needs is to pick up the cell tower's signal and it can locate
you. 

in many cases, it's good enough. for instance, a weather app only needs
to know what city you're in, not what street corner you're at.

> - Internet WiFi triangulation <=== I doubt this is practically useful

it's actually very useful and can be *very* accurate.

the location of wifi hotspots is maintained in a database by google,
apple and skyhook wireless. 

if you are near a wifi hotspot (you don't need to actually connect), it
can tell where you are. 

obviously that won't work in a car (unless you're stopped at a traffic
light and there's wifi nearby and within range) but it will work in
many other situations.

it even works indoors, such as a shopping mall.

> According to that article, the Wifi+Cellular iPads have the GPS receiver, 
> so that would be an important consideration, yet, when I look at Apple
> specifications, there is not a *clear* mention of a GPS chip:
>  https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/
> 
> That specification site simply says that the cellular iPads have:
>  Assisted GPS and GLONASS
> 
> What is *assisted* GPS?

assisted gps means it can use wifi and/or cellular to assist in
locating you.

if you've used a gps, you may have noticed it can take a while to get
an initial fix, particularly if it had been off for a while.

assisted gps can use cellular and/or wifi to get a rough idea of where
you are as well as some gps related data so that the gps can get a fix
within seconds, not minutes.

in other words, it's getting assistance.

> More importantly, is assisted GPS the same as *real* GPS?

it's a superset.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:40 PM
In article <leaa19$ek1$4@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> > there are many plans, including $2/day for unlimited voice/text/data at
> > 2g speeds or $3/day for 3g/4g speeds for the first 200 meg and then 2g
> > speeds after that. 
> > 
> > there are also monthly plans with various amounts of voice/text/data,
> > including a $30/mo unlimited text/data & 100 min voice plan, but it's a
> > bit hidden. 
> > 
> > for the times you aren't using data at all, switch out of the daily or
> > monthly plan to the pay per use plan, and don't use it (no data at
> > all).
> > 
> > you can switch plans at any time.
> 
> This is what they did NOT admit as a possibility on the phone. Or is this
> the usa-only system again?

it's part of t-mobile's prepaid plan.

at&t lets you switch once for free, and i think you have to call them
to do it.

t-mobile you can log into their website and switch at any time.

if you have it set to pay as you go (i.e., no data) and try to use
data, it will give you a splash page so you can switch to a plan with
data.

> > depending on usage patterns, $10 could last a year or more, or it could
> > last a few days. 
> > 
> >> and what countries does it work in?
> > 
> > this is for usa.
> > 
> > there may be international packages available for an additional cost
> > (don't remember), but if you are going overseas, you really want a
> > local sim for wherever you go. roaming is *not* cheap. 
> 
> Just to check a map or info?

depends what the user needs. some users will want a lot of data when
they travel. others will not.

> > the above is for any t-mobile compatible mobile device.
> > 
> > 
> > for tablets only, there is the 200 meg/month for free plan. no strings
> > attached. none. for casual use, this can't be beat. for more than 200
> > meg, you'll need other options.
> 
> The key question for me is whether I can switch out of the "pay afterwards"
> plan after my trip, which I was told was not an option.

which plan is it?
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:43 PM
In article <leaa1b$ek1$6@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> > the hard part is inserting it into the ipad. those sims are *tiny*.
> 
> I can't even figure out where it might be 8-)

it's on the side. look for a tiny pinhole. insert a pin and out comes
the sim tray + sim.

the sim itself is about the size of a fingernail. it's *really* small,
much smaller than the sim in your original ipad.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:45 PM
In article <t4vbw7rwr7.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > Where do you get the SIM,
> > 
> > the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> > touristy location. 
> 
> The usual non-answer.

that's not a non-answer at all.

you said 'where do you get the sim'. that can be any carrier's sim.
there is no single answer to that question.

for example, where you get an o2 sim is not usually going to be the
same place as a vodafone sim.

you get the sims from the carrier and in some cases, a kiosk. heathrow
airport has such kiosks.

> My question, is does anyone know of an example of a country and
> carrier (let's say in Europe) where one can cheaply purchase a SIM and
> a moderate amount of prepaid data.
> 
> If you do, what country, what carrier, and what is the cost per MB or
> GB or whatever unit?

it varies. there is no fixed price, thus there cannot be a single
answer.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:47 PM
In article <j0ppmfrwo3.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> So this is fairly expensive if you are an occasional or one time
> visitor to the US because of the $100.

the $100 is to qualify for gold. that can be all at once or stretched
out over 2.5 years. 

you can start an account for $10. it lasts for three months. that's a
reasonable option for a one-time visitor. 

you can keep renewing every three months for $10. after 2.5 years, you
will have hit gold. 

once you hit gold, the $10 lasts a year, not three months. if the
person expects to visit more than just once, it might be an option.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:49 PM
In article <1f2dneH_pOz9W5XOnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> > if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
> > you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.
> 
> Addendum:
> 
> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth 
> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go 
> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.

you could, but a lot of apps won't work.

it's also more of a hassle.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:50 PM
In article <201402220803111720-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
> > vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
> > and avoid the hassles of tethering.
> 
> Verizon iPad 2 64GB, no SIM slot.

then no option for any other carrier, at least on that ipad.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 4:35:51 PM
On 2014.02.22, 11:35 , nospam wrote:
> In article <1f2dneH_pOz9W5XOnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>> if you don't want to use the cellular function, don't activate it, and
>>> you'll still have a gps for location aware apps.
>>
>> Addendum:
>>
>> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth
>> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go
>> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.
>
> you could, but a lot of apps won't work.

Cite.

> it's also more of a hassle.

Why I pointed out that it might not fit everyone's needs.

It's a little more of a hassle - carrying it and keeping the batts 
charged.  No biggie at all esp. if left in the car most of the time.

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 4:48:39 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> In article <t4vbw7rwr7.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > Where do you get the SIM,
> > > 
> > > the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> > > touristy location. 
> > 
> > The usual non-answer.
> 
> that's not a non-answer at all.

Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.

We all know the generalities.

If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing.  We
know that.
0
Doug
2/22/2014 5:09:06 PM
In message <lea449$fcl$1@speranza.aioe.org> 
  Susan O'Reilly <susano@example.com> wrote:
> That specification site simply says that the cellular iPads have:
>  Assisted GPS and GLONASS

> What is *assisted* GPS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS

> More importantly, is assisted GPS the same as *real* GPS?

No, it's considerably better.

-- 
Was it everything you wanted to find? and did you miss me while you were
looking for yourself out there?
0
Lewis
2/22/2014 5:09:24 PM
On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
> and avoid the hassles of tethering.

Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS

Verizon does not
0
Zaidy036
2/22/2014 5:25:21 PM
In article <-vadneP_A8B6SZXOnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth
> >> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go
> >> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.
> >
> > you could, but a lot of apps won't work.
> 
> Cite.

apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
even install.

some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.

jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
in gps.

some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
one for $29.

> > it's also more of a hassle.
> 
> Why I pointed out that it might not fit everyone's needs.
> 
> It's a little more of a hassle - carrying it and keeping the batts 
> charged.  No biggie at all esp. if left in the car most of the time.

two devices is always more of a hassle than one.

and if it's in the car most of the time, what happens when you're not
in the car and the gps is?
0
nospam
2/22/2014 5:36:34 PM
In article <3wqgnjcr1.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > > > Where do you get the SIM,
> > > > 
> > > > the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> > > > touristy location. 
> > > 
> > > The usual non-answer.
> > 
> > that's not a non-answer at all.
> 
> Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.
> 
> We all know the generalities.
> 
> If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing.  We
> know that.

you have to be more specific than 'the sim' and unnamed countries.

until you supply additional information, there cannot be specifics.

plus, the offerings change a lot. what's available today might not be
available in six months.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 5:36:36 PM
On 2014.02.22, 12:36 , nospam wrote:
> In article <-vadneP_A8B6SZXOnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth
>>>> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go
>>>> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.
>>>
>>> you could, but a lot of apps won't work.
>>
>> Cite.
>
> apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
> even install.
>
> some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.
>
> jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
> in gps.
>
> some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
> than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
> one for $29.


Talking out of your hat again.


-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 5:42:52 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

> In article <3wqgnjcr1.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > > > > > Where do you get the SIM,
> > > > > 
> > > > > the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
> > > > > touristy location. 
> > > > 
> > > > The usual non-answer.
> > > 
> > > that's not a non-answer at all.
> > 
> > Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.
> > 
> > We all know the generalities.
> > 
> > If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing.  We
> > know that.
> 
> you have to be more specific than 'the sim' and unnamed countries.

I asked for anyone to provde an example in some European country
where one could purchase a sim and a moderate amount of data
reasonably cheaply.

Obviously "it varies,"  but I asked for examples from anyone with
actual knowledge or experience.

Obviously that wouldn't include you, so you needn't respond.
0
Doug
2/22/2014 5:55:47 PM
In article <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me>, Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam>
wrote:

> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS
> 
> Verizon does not

yes they do.

all lte carriers use sims, including verizon. 

<http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/verizon_4g_lte_sim.
jpg>
0
nospam
2/22/2014 6:02:18 PM
In article <9dSdnZD1Ur8BfJXOnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>>> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth
> >>>> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go
> >>>> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.
> >>>
> >>> you could, but a lot of apps won't work.
> >>
> >> Cite.
> >
> > apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
> > even install.
> >
> > some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.
> >
> > jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
> > in gps.
> >
> > some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
> > than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
> > one for $29.
> 
> Talking out of your hat again.

nope. what i said is correct.

here's an mfi certified gps for $135, which is *more* than what it
would be for a built-in gps.

<http://www.amazon.com/GNS-5870-MFI-Receiver-iPhone/dp/B004289ZW0>

non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken). 

the mfi certification is because it's a bluetooth classic device and is
using a profile that's not on the device (which doesn't include spp,
among other profiles).
0
nospam
2/22/2014 6:02:19 PM
In article <prmwhjf2vw.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I asked for anyone to provde an example in some European country
> where one could purchase a sim and a moderate amount of data
> reasonably cheaply.
> 
> Obviously "it varies,"  but I asked for examples from anyone with
> actual knowledge or experience.
> 
> Obviously that wouldn't include you, so you needn't respond.

unless you say where you are going, how can anyone answer that?

they could say they got a super deal in france, but if you're not going
to france, that isn't going to help you.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 6:04:40 PM
On 2014.02.22, 13:02 , nospam wrote:
> In article <9dSdnZD1Ur8BfJXOnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>>>> That's a good point, but for $99 or less I can buy an external Bluetooth
>>>>>> GPS receiver that will connect to the iPad or iPhone.  Personally I'd go
>>>>>> with that.  Might not fit everyone's needs of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> you could, but a lot of apps won't work.
>>>>
>>>> Cite.
>>>
>>> apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
>>> even install.
>>>
>>> some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.
>>>
>>> jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
>>> in gps.
>>>
>>> some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
>>> than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
>>> one for $29.
>>
>> Talking out of your hat again.
>
> nope. what i said is correct.
>
> here's an mfi certified gps for $135, which is *more* than what it
> would be for a built-in gps.

The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.

A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).

> non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken).

The cited BT GPS works with "hundreds" of apps (per its website).

Jailbreaking is not required, mythboy.

-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.
0
Alan
2/22/2014 6:11:52 PM
On 22/02/2014 15:29, Doug Anderson wrote:
[]
> My question, is does anyone know of an example of a country and
> carrier (let's say in Europe) where one can cheaply purchase a SIM and
> a moderate amount of prepaid data.
>
> If you do, what country, what carrier, and what is the cost per MB or
> GB or whatever unit?

I did that with Telnor in Norway a year or two back, but I think the 
offer has changed.  I did get an iPad-3 SIM in the Netherlands about 18 
months back - IIRC �10 for 1 GB.

To the OP, I would still take the iPads over a laptop, if you are 
concerned about weight and portability.  The camera is quite good as well.
-- 
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
2/22/2014 6:37:21 PM
David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> writes:

> On 22/02/2014 15:29, Doug Anderson wrote:
> []
> > My question, is does anyone know of an example of a country and
> > carrier (let's say in Europe) where one can cheaply purchase a SIM and
> > a moderate amount of prepaid data.
> >
> > If you do, what country, what carrier, and what is the cost per MB or
> > GB or whatever unit?
> 
> I did that with Telnor in Norway a year or two back, but I think the
> offer has changed.  I did get an iPad-3 SIM in the Netherlands about
> 18 months back - IIRC �10 for 1 GB.

That seems quite reasonable.
0
Doug
2/22/2014 6:42:01 PM
In article <NM2dnWj7Sf_1dZXOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>> apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
> >>> even install.
> >>>
> >>> some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.
> >>>
> >>> jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
> >>> in gps.
> >>>
> >>> some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
> >>> than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
> >>> one for $29.
> >>
> >> Talking out of your hat again.
> >
> > nope. what i said is correct.
> >
> > here's an mfi certified gps for $135, which is *more* than what it
> > would be for a built-in gps.
> 
> The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.
> 
> A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).

$30 difference is not worth the hassles. 

> > non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken).
> 
> The cited BT GPS works with "hundreds" of apps (per its website).

<http://gps.dualav.com/explore-by-product/xgps150a/>

what their website says is:

  there are hundreds of GPS-aware apps on the market and most of them
  will work with the GPS Receiver

most != all, exactly what i said.

it also says this in the faq:

  Does the iPod touch/iPad/iPhone have to be jail broken in order to
  work with the GPS Receiver?
  No, the GPS Receiver has been certified to work with iPod touch, iPad
  and iPhone.

"certified to work with ipod touch, ipad and iphone" means apple's mfi
certification, which is also what i said. 

it also says this in the faq:

  ...the vast majority of apps on the iTunes App Store will work with
  the GPS Receiver.

vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.

> Jailbreaking is not required, mythboy.

that's because it's mfi certified, which is what i said.

that's the point of getting it certified.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 7:15:04 PM
In article <gjr46vykkv.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
> > In article <anfvncufl0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
> >  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > I had the impression you could
> > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > European countries.  
> > > 
> > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > 
> > In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
> > Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
> > 
> > 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
> > 
> > 2. Slip in the new SIM.
> 
> That's not the hard part of the algorithm.
> 
> Where do you get the SIM, and how much do you pay (for the SIM,
> whatever plan you need, and data)?
>  
> > That's the basics.
> 
> No, that's the easy part.  

In Indonesia, you can pretty well get one anywhere from any local or 
any shop. The population is very "connected", each has mobile phone 
numbers to others who can do whatever they cannot do for you directly. 
They often organise a cut for themselves (you don't see the details). 

In Australia, you walk into any number of mobile phone shops, dept 
stores, newsagents. In Europe it is sure to be the same. 

About what happens when you stick the SIM in, it varies but 
instructions on activation come with them.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/22/2014 7:58:03 PM
On 2014.02.22, 14:15 , nospam wrote:
> In article <NM2dnWj7Sf_1dZXOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>>> apps can require gps. if there's no gps in the device, the app won't
>>>>> even install.
>>>>>
>>>>> some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not all.
>>>>>
>>>>> jailbreakers can spoof location services into thinking there's a built
>>>>> in gps.
>>>>>
>>>>> some gps devices are mfi certified and will probably work a lot better
>>>>> than a non-certified device (i.e., more apps), but you won't be getting
>>>>> one for $29.
>>>>
>>>> Talking out of your hat again.
>>>
>>> nope. what i said is correct.
>>>
>>> here's an mfi certified gps for $135, which is *more* than what it
>>> would be for a built-in gps.
>>
>> The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.
>>
>> A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).
>
> $30 difference is not worth the hassles.

It depends on needs.  One need may be GPS service where there is no 
aiding at all from cell towers.

Another need may be where the signal is poor where the iPad is located, 
but good where the GPS receiver is located.  (Bluetooth range is 5 - 10 
metres).

>>> non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken).
>>
>> The cited BT GPS works with "hundreds" of apps (per its website).
>
> <http://gps.dualav.com/explore-by-product/xgps150a/>
>
> what their website says is:
>
>    there are hundreds of GPS-aware apps on the market and most of them
>    will work with the GPS Receiver
>
> most != all, exactly what i said.

Exactly?  No.  Not exactly.

What you said, exactly was:

QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE

QUOTE some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not 
all. END QUOTE

Implying that its a bad path to follow.  When it isn't.  At all.

OTOH, the purveyor is saying "most of them will work..."

While you'll no doubt harp on your soft logic, the fact is the market is 
well prepared for iPad + external GPS and has been for several years.

>
> it also says this in the faq:
>
>    Does the iPod touch/iPad/iPhone have to be jail broken in order to
>    work with the GPS Receiver?
>    No, the GPS Receiver has been certified to work with iPod touch, iPad
>    and iPhone.
>
> "certified to work with ipod touch, ipad and iphone" means apple's mfi
> certification, which is also what i said.

Big whooooptiedoo - you found that the quality GPS supplier is doing a 
quality job.

But your first reply was to insinuate that such an approach was not 
viable because: QUOTE you could, but a lot of apps won't work. UNQUOTE.

Point is these external GPS' have been around for a few years.  It's not 
like they haven't gotten their program right.

>
> it also says this in the faq:
>
>    ...the vast majority of apps on the iTunes App Store will work with
>    the GPS Receiver.
>
> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.

See above.  That's not at all what you said, squirmboy.

>
>> Jailbreaking is not required, mythboy.
>
> that's because it's mfi certified, which is what i said.

Above.

>
> that's the point of getting it certified.

Your original insinuation, myhthology-boy was that it would not work 
with "a lot of apps".

You push an idea to the edges without checking the facts and look like a 
fool.  Again.  And Again.  And Again.

Forecast:  Again.


-- 
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/22/2014 8:10:14 PM
In message <prmwhjf2vw.fsf@ethel.the.log> 
  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> writes:

>> In article <3wqgnjcr1.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
>> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > > > > > Where do you get the SIM,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > the carrier's store or webstite, or a kiosk at the airport or other
>> > > > > touristy location. 
>> > > > 
>> > > > The usual non-answer.
>> > > 
>> > > that's not a non-answer at all.
>> > 
>> > Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.
>> > 
>> > We all know the generalities.
>> > 
>> > If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing.  We
>> > know that.
>> 
>> you have to be more specific than 'the sim' and unnamed countries.

> I asked for anyone to provde an example in some European country
> where one could purchase a sim and a moderate amount of data
> reasonably cheaply.

Someone posted something about Poland. Prices seemed reasonably cheap
(US$8 for 2GB, IIRC).


-- 
*** Word_of_God was kicked from #christian by SageRider (Please don't
Swear)
0
Lewis
2/22/2014 9:56:23 PM
In message <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me> 
  Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
> On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
>> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
>> and avoid the hassles of tethering.

> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS

> Verizon does not

But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.

-- 
YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN
THEY BECOME? --Hogfather
0
Lewis
2/22/2014 9:57:39 PM
In article <XJidnaSt9PC6mZTOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >> The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.
> >>
> >> A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).
> >
> > $30 difference is not worth the hassles.
> 
> It depends on needs.  One need may be GPS service where there is no 
> aiding at all from cell towers.

the gps in ios devices does not require cell tower assistance.

it helps get a faster fix, but it works just fine without it.

i've done it on numerous occasions in areas with *no* cell coverage at
all, without any problem.

> Another need may be where the signal is poor where the iPad is located, 
> but good where the GPS receiver is located.  (Bluetooth range is 5 - 10 
> metres).

i use my iphone gps in a car just about all the time (not for a
navigation, but for another location-aware app). it works just fine. it
even gets a fix inside the house most of the time. my android phone can
also get a fix inside the house too. 

so while there could be edge cases where it might be an issue, it's not
normally a problem.

> >>> non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken).
> >>
> >> The cited BT GPS works with "hundreds" of apps (per its website).
> >
> > <http://gps.dualav.com/explore-by-product/xgps150a/>
> >
> > what their website says is:
> >
> >    there are hundreds of GPS-aware apps on the market and most of them
> >    will work with the GPS Receiver
> >
> > most != all, exactly what i said.
> 
> Exactly?  No.  Not exactly.
>
> What you said, exactly was:
> 
> QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE
> 
> QUOTE some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not 
> all. END QUOTE
> 
> Implying that its a bad path to follow.  When it isn't.  At all.

you came up with the implying is a bad path.

i never said it was good or bad, only that it is what it is.

i said that some apps won't work, something which has been confirmed by
the manufacturer of the gps *you* suggested!

if one or more apps you want to use won't work, then it is indeed a bad
path since you can't use the apps you want. if not, then it doesn't
matter.

> OTOH, the purveyor is saying "most of them will work..."

most is not all. 

all it takes is one app that won't work to piss off the user.

> While you'll no doubt harp on your soft logic, the fact is the market is 
> well prepared for iPad + external GPS and has been for several years.

the market might be prepared for it but there are compromises, which
you are ignoring.

> > it also says this in the faq:
> >
> >    Does the iPod touch/iPad/iPhone have to be jail broken in order to
> >    work with the GPS Receiver?
> >    No, the GPS Receiver has been certified to work with iPod touch, iPad
> >    and iPhone.
> >
> > "certified to work with ipod touch, ipad and iphone" means apple's mfi
> > certification, which is also what i said.
> 
> Big whooooptiedoo - you found that the quality GPS supplier is doing a 
> quality job.

mfi certification absolutely is a big whooooptiedoo. 

it's not cheap and not simple, and the device has to be sent to apple
and it requires an apple specific chip in the device. 

most small companies aren't even eligible to participate.

> But your first reply was to insinuate that such an approach was not 
> viable because: QUOTE you could, but a lot of apps won't work. UNQUOTE.

i didn't say it wasn't viable. 

i said it's an issue because a lot of apps won't work, something which
the gps maker confirms!

> Point is these external GPS' have been around for a few years.  It's not 
> like they haven't gotten their program right.

the problem is not with the gps manufacturer or the gps device.

the problem is that ios devices do not support a lot of the standard
bluetooth profiles, notably spp, which the product manual for the gps
you mentioned says it uses. 

the only way (other than jailbreaking) to use spp or another non-native
bluetooth profile is with mfi certification.

that's just the way it is with bluetooth classic on ios. 

> > it also says this in the faq:
> >
> >    ...the vast majority of apps on the iTunes App Store will work with
> >    the GPS Receiver.
> >
> > vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
> 
> See above.  That's not at all what you said, squirmboy.

i said:
> QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE

which is what the gps maker is also saying. they agree with me.

the fact is that not all apps will work and that *is* going to matter
to some users. 

all it takes is one app that doesn't work and the user is going to be
unhappy.

> >> Jailbreaking is not required, mythboy.
> >
> > that's because it's mfi certified, which is what i said.
> 
> Above.
> 
> >
> > that's the point of getting it certified.
> 
> Your original insinuation, myhthology-boy was that it would not work 
> with "a lot of apps".

which is confirmed by the manufacturer of the gps *you* suggested.

you picked the device. not me. 

this isn't some obscure gps i dug up. *you* picked it!

> You push an idea to the edges without checking the facts and look like a 
> fool.  Again.  And Again.  And Again.

you confirmed everything i said, with a link you provided!

what's really fucked up is you refuse to acknowledge it and are
continuing to argue. that makes *you* the fool.

you could just say 'it may not be all apps, but for a lot of people
it's probably fine.' but you didn't.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 9:59:45 PM
On 2014-02-22, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> In message <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me> 
>   Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
>> On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
>>> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
>>> and avoid the hassles of tethering.
>
>> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS
>
>> Verizon does not
>
> But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.

My Verizon iPhone has a SIM. Go figure...  ; )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/22/2014 10:17:49 PM
David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/02/2014 15:29, Doug Anderson wrote:
> []
>> My question, is does anyone know of an example of a country and
>> carrier (let's say in Europe) where one can cheaply purchase a SIM and
>> a moderate amount of prepaid data.
>> 
>> If you do, what country, what carrier, and what is the cost per MB or
>> GB or whatever unit?
> 
> I did that with Telnor in Norway a year or two back, but I think the
> offer has changed.  I did get an iPad-3 SIM in the Netherlands about 18
> months back - IIRC €10 for 1 GB.
> 
> To the OP, I would still take the iPads over a laptop, if you are
> concerned about weight and portability.  The camera is quite good as well.

I was really startled by the camera quality in my iPad Air!
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 10:23:32 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <j0ppmfrwo3.fsf@ethel.the.log>, Doug Anderson
> <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> So this is fairly expensive if you are an occasional or one time
>> visitor to the US because of the $100.
> 
> the $100 is to qualify for gold. that can be all at once or stretched
> out over 2.5 years. 
> 
> you can start an account for $10. it lasts for three months. that's a
> reasonable option for a one-time visitor. 
> 
> you can keep renewing every three months for $10. after 2.5 years, you
> will have hit gold. 
> 
> once you hit gold, the $10 lasts a year, not three months. if the
> person expects to visit more than just once, it might be an option.

That sounds interesting.
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 10:23:33 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <leaa1b$ek1$6@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
>>> the hard part is inserting it into the ipad. those sims are *tiny*.
>> 
>> I can't even figure out where it might be 8-)
> 
> it's on the side. look for a tiny pinhole. insert a pin and out comes
> the sim tray + sim.
> 
> the sim itself is about the size of a fingernail. it's *really* small,
> much smaller than the sim in your original ipad.

Found it. That's actually a bit scary! 8-)
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 10:23:34 PM
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <leaa19$ek1$4@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> 
>>> there are many plans, including $2/day for unlimited voice/text/data at
>>> 2g speeds or $3/day for 3g/4g speeds for the first 200 meg and then 2g
>>> speeds after that. 
>>> 
>>> there are also monthly plans with various amounts of voice/text/data,
>>> including a $30/mo unlimited text/data & 100 min voice plan, but it's a
>>> bit hidden. 
>>> 
>>> for the times you aren't using data at all, switch out of the daily or
>>> monthly plan to the pay per use plan, and don't use it (no data at
>>> all).
>>> 
>>> you can switch plans at any time.
>> 
>> This is what they did NOT admit as a possibility on the phone. Or is this
>> the usa-only system again?
> 
> it's part of t-mobile's prepaid plan.
> 
> at&t lets you switch once for free, and i think you have to call them
> to do it.
> 
> t-mobile you can log into their website and switch at any time.
> 
> if you have it set to pay as you go (i.e., no data) and try to use
> data, it will give you a splash page so you can switch to a plan with
> data.
> 
>>> depending on usage patterns, $10 could last a year or more, or it could
>>> last a few days. 
>>> 
>>>> and what countries does it work in?
>>> 
>>> this is for usa.
>>> 
>>> there may be international packages available for an additional cost
>>> (don't remember), but if you are going overseas, you really want a
>>> local sim for wherever you go. roaming is *not* cheap. 
>> 
>> Just to check a map or info?
> 
> depends what the user needs. some users will want a lot of data when
> they travel. others will not.
> 
>>> the above is for any t-mobile compatible mobile device.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> for tablets only, there is the 200 meg/month for free plan. no strings
>>> attached. none. for casual use, this can't be beat. for more than 200
>>> meg, you'll need other options.
>> 
>> The key question for me is whether I can switch out of the "pay afterwards"
>> plan after my trip, which I was told was not an option.
> 
> which plan is it?
I've arranged to start it in April, a bit before my trip, so I'm fuzzy on
the details, to be honest. It's the only option they gave me that fit my
needs, however.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/22/2014 10:23:35 PM
On 2014.02.22, 16:59 , nospam wrote:
> In article <XJidnaSt9PC6mZTOnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
> <alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.
>>>>
>>>> A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).
>>>
>>> $30 difference is not worth the hassles.
>>
>> It depends on needs.  One need may be GPS service where there is no
>> aiding at all from cell towers.
>
> the gps in ios devices does not require cell tower assistance.
>
> it helps get a faster fix, but it works just fine without it.
>
> i've done it on numerous occasions in areas with *no* cell coverage at
> all, without any problem.

Since I do a lot of other GPS testing in some odd places, I can confirm 
that the iPhone cannot easily acquire in some situations where a simple 
GPS does.

>
>> Another need may be where the signal is poor where the iPad is located,
>> but good where the GPS receiver is located.  (Bluetooth range is 5 - 10
>> metres).
>
> i use my iphone gps in a car just about all the time (not for a
> navigation, but for another location-aware app). it works just fine. it
> even gets a fix inside the house most of the time. my android phone can
> also get a fix inside the house too.

Never claimed it wouldn't but there will be cases where a nearby remote 
will get better signal.  (I know 2 airplane owners who use the earlier 
cited GPS simply to have a better sky view of the satellites with their 
iPads (I don't know whether their iPads have cellular/GPS or not - I'll 
ask)).



>
> so while there could be edge cases where it might be an issue, it's not
> normally a problem.

Agreed.  But then again there is always the case for the lower cost iPad 
+ GPS that can be used with various other devices.

>
>>>>> non-mfi gps devices will probably have issues (unless jailbroken).
>>>>
>>>> The cited BT GPS works with "hundreds" of apps (per its website).
>>>
>>> <http://gps.dualav.com/explore-by-product/xgps150a/>
>>>
>>> what their website says is:
>>>
>>>     there are hundreds of GPS-aware apps on the market and most of them
>>>     will work with the GPS Receiver
>>>
>>> most != all, exactly what i said.
>>
>> Exactly?  No.  Not exactly.
>>
>> What you said, exactly was:
>>
>> QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE
>>
>> QUOTE some apps can support gps data coming in over bluetooth but not
>> all. END QUOTE
>>
>> Implying that its a bad path to follow.  When it isn't.  At all.
>
> you came up with the implying is a bad path.

No your wording has been against the idea from first mention.


>
> i never said it was good or bad, only that it is what it is.

And you were wrong about.  You implied that it was a large number by 
your sloppy writing.  As usual and par for the course.

>
> i said that some apps won't work, something which has been confirmed by
> the manufacturer of the gps *you* suggested!

His mentioning that most apps work fine is interpreted in a much more 
positive light than your "a lot of apps won't work".



>
> if one or more apps you want to use won't work, then it is indeed a bad
> path since you can't use the apps you want. if not, then it doesn't
> matter.

Twist and shout man is at it again.

>
>> OTOH, the purveyor is saying "most of them will work..."
>
> most is not all.

No - but you know what it's probably all the apps that matter to anyone 
and for those that don't there is a lot more

>
> all it takes is one app that won't work to piss off the user.
>
>> While you'll no doubt harp on your soft logic, the fact is the market is
>> well prepared for iPad + external GPS and has been for several years.
>
> the market might be prepared for it but there are compromises, which
> you are ignoring.

Fine with me: why don't you list them.  Why don't you list the apps that 
don't work with them - or with the GPS I cited.

(your answer is ....)

>
>>> it also says this in the faq:
>>>
>>>     Does the iPod touch/iPad/iPhone have to be jail broken in order to
>>>     work with the GPS Receiver?
>>>     No, the GPS Receiver has been certified to work with iPod touch, iPad
>>>     and iPhone.
>>>
>>> "certified to work with ipod touch, ipad and iphone" means apple's mfi
>>> certification, which is also what i said.
>>
>> Big whooooptiedoo - you found that the quality GPS supplier is doing a
>> quality job.
>
> mfi certification absolutely is a big whooooptiedoo.
>
> it's not cheap and not simple, and the device has to be sent to apple
> and it requires an apple specific chip in the device.
>
> most small companies aren't even eligible to participate.

Anyone putting mass market GPS receivers into the marketplace will have 
such issues in their business plan.  The GPS maker I cited has been in 
the market for quite a while.

>
>> But your first reply was to insinuate that such an approach was not
>> viable because: QUOTE you could, but a lot of apps won't work. UNQUOTE.
>
> i didn't say it wasn't viable.
>
> i said it's an issue because a lot of apps won't work, something which
> the gps maker confirms!

This all goes back to your very first dismissive claim.  First you shit 
on something and then when its shown to be more viable than you imagined 
your slimy weasel squirm engine lights up.

>
>> Point is these external GPS' have been around for a few years.  It's not
>> like they haven't gotten their program right.
>
> the problem is not with the gps manufacturer or the gps device.
>
> the problem is that ios devices do not support a lot of the standard
> bluetooth profiles, notably spp, which the product manual for the gps
> you mentioned says it uses.

Funny enough that it works fine with iOS.

>
> the only way (other than jailbreaking) to use spp or another non-native
> bluetooth profile is with mfi certification.
>
> that's just the way it is with bluetooth classic on ios.
>
>>> it also says this in the faq:
>>>
>>>     ...the vast majority of apps on the iTunes App Store will work with
>>>     the GPS Receiver.
>>>
>>> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
>>
>> See above.  That's not at all what you said, squirmboy.
>
> i said:
>> QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE
>
> which is what the gps maker is also saying. they agree with me.

No.  What he said was:   Most will work.

English is not math.  What you said implies most won't work.

What he says is most will.

>
> the fact is that not all apps will work and that *is* going to matter
> to some users.
>
> all it takes is one app that doesn't work and the user is going to be
> unhappy.
>
>>>> Jailbreaking is not required, mythboy.
>>>
>>> that's because it's mfi certified, which is what i said.
>>
>> Above.
>>
>>>
>>> that's the point of getting it certified.
>>
>> Your original insinuation, myhthology-boy was that it would not work
>> with "a lot of apps".
>
> which is confirmed by the manufacturer of the gps *you* suggested.
>
> you picked the device. not me.
>
> this isn't some obscure gps i dug up. *you* picked it!

Of course I did.  It's a product I know.

That's why I pointed it out so that you could see that your claim:

QUOTE      you could, but a lot of apps won't work.       ENDQUOTE

slanted things quite the wrong way.

You're a weasel wording wonder, I'll say that.

>> You push an idea to the edges without checking the facts and look like a
>> fool.  Again.  And Again.  And Again.
>
> you confirmed everything i said, with a link you provided!
>
> what's really fucked up is you refuse to acknowledge it and are
> continuing to argue. that makes *you* the fool.

Wow.  Amazing how you turn shit into shinola.

You, at first mention of bluetooth GPS shit on the whole idea.

Then when it's show to be very viable, you turn around claiming that you 
said it was all green when you were shitting on it.

You are a pathetic mess of a person.

> you could just say 'it may not be all apps, but for a lot of people
> it's probably fine.' but you didn't.

I didn't have to - I simply repeated what the fine maker of the GPS I 
cited said:  Most apps.

End for me - have your last word that gives you the illusion of being right.

-- 
    ... it may be that "in the cloud" really isn't the best term
    for the services these companies offer.  What they really
    want is to have us "on the leash."
                   -David Pogue, Scientific American, 2014.02
0
Alan
2/22/2014 10:23:41 PM
In article <bmsm0dFn3b4U3@mid.individual.net>, Jolly Roger
<jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

> My Verizon iPhone has a SIM. Go figure...  ; )

all lte devices do.
0
nospam
2/22/2014 10:53:41 PM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:

> In article <gjr46vykkv.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:
> > 
> > > In article <anfvncufl0.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
> > >  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I had the impression you could
> > > > easily purchase a SIM with a moderate amount of prepaid data in many
> > > > European countries.  
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe others know if this is effectively true or not.  I'd like to
> > > > know for my own purposes if anyone has good algorithms for doing this!
> > > 
> > > In many countries, probably nearly all, to take an Asian example, 
> > > Indonesia you can. Algorithm? Oh... ok...
> > > 
> > > 1. Look at the side of your ipad and yank out the SIM if there is one.
> > > 
> > > 2. Slip in the new SIM.
> > 
> > That's not the hard part of the algorithm.
> > 
> > Where do you get the SIM, and how much do you pay (for the SIM,
> > whatever plan you need, and data)?
> >  
> > > That's the basics.
> > 
> > No, that's the easy part.  
> 
> In Indonesia, you can pretty well get one anywhere from any local or 
> any shop. The population is very "connected", each has mobile phone 
> numbers to others who can do whatever they cannot do for you directly. 
> They often organise a cut for themselves (you don't see the details). 
> 
> In Australia, you walk into any number of mobile phone shops, dept 
> stores, newsagents. In Europe it is sure to be the same. 
> 
> About what happens when you stick the SIM in, it varies but 
> instructions on activation come with them.

And how much does the SIM and the data cost in any of these examples.

Just to be clear: I'm not asking how to insert a SIM.  

I'm asking if there is a way that a visitor can get a data plan at a
modest price, and what that price is.  If there is, _then_ I'm
interested in knowing where to get that sort of SIM.
0
Doug
2/23/2014 12:15:20 AM
On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:23:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

>  What you said implies most won't work.

Hardly ... unless you mistakenly misread his "many" with "most" :-) .

Now, both of you: why not drop it, shake hands, kiss, and make up? 
(Or just take this pissing contest to the loo and have at it in private.)
Thanks!

Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/23/2014 12:38:11 AM
On 22 Feb 2014 09:09:06 -0800, Doug Anderson wrote:

>>> The usual non-answer.
> 
> Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.
> 
> If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing. 

Did you see the example I provided yesterday, of the Polish carrier
Orange's offer of a 20 Zloty "Orange free na karte" SIM providing 20 zlotys
worth of 0.29 zloty/min airtime and 1 or 2 GB of data, to be used within 30
days? But if all you can say is no one's offering examples, I'm done :-) . 

Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/23/2014 12:50:43 AM
In article <201402231140262646-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-22 19:15:04 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> 
> << Le Snip >>
> 
> > vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
> 
> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> 
> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
> (alt + =) to give you ���.
> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.

"!=" is the "not equal to" operator in the C programming language.
0
Your
2/23/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-02-23 19:53:20 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <201402231140262646-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-22 19:15:04 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>> 
>> << Le Snip >>
>> 
>>> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
>> 
>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>> 
>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>> (alt + =) to give you ���.
>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> 
> "!=" is the "not equal to" operator in the C programming language.

Thanks for that snippet of education.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014.02.23, 16:38 , tlvp wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
>
>> WTF is "!=3D" supposed to mean?
>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>>
>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>> (alt + =3D) to give you =E2=89=A0.
>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
>
> Hmm ... testing alt + =3D : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <d=
ing> .
> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Us=
enet
> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>
> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

"option =3D" is =E2=89=A0


--=20
   Privacy has become an essential personal chore that most
   people are not trained to perform.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.


0
Alan
2/23/2014 1:01:01 AM
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> writes:

> On 22 Feb 2014 09:09:06 -0800, Doug Anderson wrote:
> 
> >>> The usual non-answer.
> > 
> > Again, I asked for examples, not for generalities.
> > 
> > If all you can say is "it varies" then you've provided nothing. 
> 
> Did you see the example I provided yesterday, of the Polish carrier
> Orange's offer of a 20 Zloty "Orange free na karte" SIM providing 20 zlotys
> worth of 0.29 zloty/min airtime and 1 or 2 GB of data, to be used within 30
> days? But if all you can say is no one's offering examples, I'm done
> :-) . 

No, I missed that, but thank you - that is helpful.

David Taylor supplied a Norway example also, which I did see.

At no point have I said "no one's offering examples."  I have
pointed out to people who say "it varies" that we all know that, and
what I'm asking for are examples.

Having said all that, it'd be great to get more than two examples.
0
Doug
2/23/2014 1:14:15 AM
In article <ovob1y3crr.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
 Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm asking if there is a way that a visitor can get a data plan at a
> modest price, and what that price is.  If there is, _then_ I'm
> interested in knowing where to get that sort of SIM.

Please say where you are likely to be going in the next year and I 
will have my agents in those countries search for complete answers for 
you. Surely you are not so wedded to your mobile appendices that this 
matter will determine where you go?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/23/2014 1:26:53 AM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:

> In article <ovob1y3crr.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>  Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > I'm asking if there is a way that a visitor can get a data plan at a
> > modest price, and what that price is.  If there is, _then_ I'm
> > interested in knowing where to get that sort of SIM.
> 
> Please say where you are likely to be going in the next year and I 
> will have my agents in those countries search for complete answers for 
> you. Surely you are not so wedded to your mobile appendices that this 
> matter will determine where you go?

I'd actually like to know what people's individual experiences are in
individual places.  I expect to be in Slovenia, Germany, Italy and
France at various times in the next year, but I'd be interested in
hearing people's experiences in other places (for future reference if
for no other reason).
0
Doug
2/23/2014 7:17:25 AM
On 22/02/2014 22:23, Erilar wrote:
[]
> I was really startled by the camera quality in my iPad Air!

Yes, and being fixed focal length forces you to zoom with your feet, and 
the large display makes me think a little more about framing.  I still 
take my DSLR where best results are required.

-- 
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
2/23/2014 9:32:20 AM
David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/02/2014 22:23, Erilar wrote:
> []
>> I was really startled by the camera quality in my iPad Air!
> 
> Yes, and being fixed focal length forces you to zoom with your feet, and
> the large display makes me think a little more about framing.  I still
> take my DSLR where best results are required.

My digital camera fits in a smaller pocket and has more things I can vary
as well as being easier to point, but can't take indoor shots without
either flash or a really steady hand. The iPad camera is a useful
supplement, not a substitute.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/23/2014 1:53:25 PM
On 23/02/2014 13:53, Erilar wrote:
[]
> My digital camera fits in a smaller pocket and has more things I can vary
> as well as being easier to point, but can't take indoor shots without
> either flash or a really steady hand. The iPad camera is a useful
> supplement, not a substitute.

Actually, I now find that it has to be a "photographic outing" before I 
take my DSLR.  Yes, a steady hand or bracing will help greatly with 
indoor shots, and yes, flash can be very handy, but a lot of the time 
the iPad camera can be enough on its own for me.  Let's see if I can 
find some indoor shots - these are either Moto-G Smart-phone or iPad, 
maybe it will say in the EXIF data - no, that's been stripped:

   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgMkkrNIIAAwfei.jpg:large
   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfuTNzPIcAAvzoU.jpg:large
   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeHOtP8IAAAQbpS.jpg:large
   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbxWWxCIEAA5HsZ.jpg:large

No, I'm not printing these as 10 x 8 for wall display!  Just snapshots 
for fun.

-- 
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
0
David
2/23/2014 3:01:49 PM
On 2014.02.22, 19:38 , tlvp wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:23:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>   What you said implies most won't work.
>
> Hardly ... unless you mistakenly misread his "many" with "most" :-) .
>
> Now, both of you: why not drop it, shake hands, kiss, and make up?
> (Or just take this pissing contest to the loo and have at it in private.)
> Thanks!

Il vaut mieux rester sur le bord - si tu ne connais pas "nospam", tant 
mieux pour toi.

-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/23/2014 3:35:45 PM
On 2014.02.22, 19:38 , tlvp wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Feb 2014 17:23:41 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>>   What you said implies most won't work.
>
> Hardly ... unless you mistakenly misread his "many" with "most" :-) .

Context.


-- 
   Those who have reduced our privacy, whether they are state
   or commercial actors, prefer that we do not reduce theirs.
                  - Jaron Lanier, Scientific American, 2013.11.

0
Alan
2/23/2014 3:36:10 PM

lucky you

it's not an either/or proposition

get an ipad AND a laptop

i recommend the ipad air

the mini's screen is too small for my style of use

must you take both ipads

can you use the gift for something other than a mini

or, get the mini too and sell it on craigslist


the ipad is not a replacement for a real operating system like osx

i need them both

but the ipad has become increasingly important for me recently


good luck

-- 
unDO email address
___
Nature,                                                 heron stone
  to be commanded,                                http://gendo.net
         must be obeyed.                 mailto:heronDO@gendo.net
0
heron
2/23/2014 7:35:25 PM
On 2014-02-22 19:15:04 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

<< Le Snip >>

> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.

WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
Is that your idea of "not equal to"?

All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
(alt + =) to give you ≠.
....unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 7:40:26 PM
On 2014-02-22 21:57:39 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me>
>   Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
>> On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
>>> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
>>> and avoid the hassles of tethering.
> 
>> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS
> 
>> Verizon does not
> 
> But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.

My Verizon iPad 2 (Wi-Fi+Cellular) has full GPS capability and no SIM.
MotionX GPS HD, Theodolite, & Spyglass work just fine.

All later editions of Wi-Fi+Cellular iPads have SIMs regardless of carrier.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 7:58:25 PM
In article <201402231140262646-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
> 
> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?

not equal to.

> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?

it's not my idea. 

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operators_in_C_and_C%2B%2B#Comparison_oper
ators.2Frelational_operators>

! is the logical inverse of what follows, i.e., not, so != is not
equal. 

except that in c, = is assignment and == is equality, so not equal
should be !==, but it isn't. c is not exactly well designed.

pascal uses <> for not equal because if something is not equal, it's
either less than greater than, which makes a lot more sense than !=
does.
0
nospam
2/23/2014 8:35:10 PM
In article <mcudnaAaqKfzvpTOnZ2dnUVZ_uidnZ2d@giganews.com>, Alan Browne
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:

> >>>> The difference between an iPad with/without GPS is $130.
> >>>>
> >>>> A BluTooth GPS is $99.00 ( XGPS150A ).
> >>>
> >>> $30 difference is not worth the hassles.
> >>
> >> It depends on needs.  One need may be GPS service where there is no
> >> aiding at all from cell towers.
> >
> > the gps in ios devices does not require cell tower assistance.
> >
> > it helps get a faster fix, but it works just fine without it.
> >
> > i've done it on numerous occasions in areas with *no* cell coverage at
> > all, without any problem.
> 
> Since I do a lot of other GPS testing in some odd places, I can confirm 
> that the iPhone cannot easily acquire in some situations where a simple 
> GPS does.

nothing is perfect.

however, i can confirm that i have driven in areas with no cell
service, including parts of wyoming and nebraska, and my iphone gps had
absolutely no problem whatsoever.

in normal use cases, it works just fine, but there are always edge
cases where something will not. 

on the other hand, the navigation app i was using was another story. at
one point (don't remember where) it said 'bear right ahead' to get onto
the highway, and it was actually on the left. 

> >> Another need may be where the signal is poor where the iPad is located,
> >> but good where the GPS receiver is located.  (Bluetooth range is 5 - 10
> >> metres).
> >
> > i use my iphone gps in a car just about all the time (not for a
> > navigation, but for another location-aware app). it works just fine. it
> > even gets a fix inside the house most of the time. my android phone can
> > also get a fix inside the house too.
> 
> Never claimed it wouldn't but there will be cases where a nearby remote 
> will get better signal.  (I know 2 airplane owners who use the earlier 
> cited GPS simply to have a better sky view of the satellites with their 
> iPads (I don't know whether their iPads have cellular/GPS or not - I'll 
> ask)).

airplanes are another edge case. 

i doubt the original poster plans to use the ipad in an airplane.

> > so while there could be edge cases where it might be an issue, it's not
> > normally a problem.
> 
> Agreed.  But then again there is always the case for the lower cost iPad 
> + GPS that can be used with various other devices.

maybe if you have a bunch of other devices it might be a consideration.

otherwise the difference in price is not enough to warrant the
downsides.

> > i never said it was good or bad, only that it is what it is.
> 
> And you were wrong about.  You implied that it was a large number by 
> your sloppy writing.  As usual and par for the course.

i did not count how many, nor does it matter.

if you're going to argue over most versus a lot versus some verus a
few, then you are really being petty. 

the key is not all apps will work with a bluetooth gps. 

all it takes is *one* app to not work for a user to be pissed they took
your advice and didn't get the built-in gps. 

> > i said that some apps won't work, something which has been confirmed by
> > the manufacturer of the gps *you* suggested!
> 
> His mentioning that most apps work fine is interpreted in a much more 
> positive light than your "a lot of apps won't work".

what did you expect from the manufacturer of a product? 

obviously they are going to do their best to suggest the product works
with as many apps as possible.

unless they give a percentage, it's just a vague term.

> >> OTOH, the purveyor is saying "most of them will work..."
> >
> > most is not all.
> 
> No - but you know what it's probably all the apps that matter to anyone 
> and for those that don't there is a lot more

how do you know what apps matter to other people?

you don't.

> > all it takes is one app that won't work to piss off the user.
> >
> >> While you'll no doubt harp on your soft logic, the fact is the market is
> >> well prepared for iPad + external GPS and has been for several years.
> >
> > the market might be prepared for it but there are compromises, which
> > you are ignoring.
> 
> Fine with me: why don't you list them.  Why don't you list the apps that 
> don't work with them - or with the GPS I cited.

send me the gps and i'll test a few. 

any app that requires a built-in gps will not install and therefore
won't work, and that includes the app i'm currently working on.

furthermore, not all gps functions might work. i doubt that location
services in the background would work with an external bluetooth gps,
but i don't have a bluetooth gps to test to confirm that. i really
doubt that region monitoring would work when there's no cell service.

> >>> "certified to work with ipod touch, ipad and iphone" means apple's mfi
> >>> certification, which is also what i said.
> >>
> >> Big whooooptiedoo - you found that the quality GPS supplier is doing a
> >> quality job.
> >
> > mfi certification absolutely is a big whooooptiedoo.
> >
> > it's not cheap and not simple, and the device has to be sent to apple
> > and it requires an apple specific chip in the device.
> >
> > most small companies aren't even eligible to participate.
> 
> Anyone putting mass market GPS receivers into the marketplace will have 
> such issues in their business plan.  The GPS maker I cited has been in 
> the market for quite a while.

although the gps device you mention is mfi certified, not all are. 

> >> But your first reply was to insinuate that such an approach was not
> >> viable because: QUOTE you could, but a lot of apps won't work. UNQUOTE.
> >
> > i didn't say it wasn't viable.
> >
> > i said it's an issue because a lot of apps won't work, something which
> > the gps maker confirms!
> 
> This all goes back to your very first dismissive claim.  First you shit 
> on something and then when its shown to be more viable than you imagined 
> your slimy weasel squirm engine lights up.

it's viable only if you don't mind carrying two devices and restrict
yourself to a subset of apps.

for those that don't care about that, then it's viable.

for those that do, it's not.

the price difference is $30 and that's not enough for most people to
consider the hassle worthwhile. 

> >> Point is these external GPS' have been around for a few years.  It's not
> >> like they haven't gotten their program right.
> >
> > the problem is not with the gps manufacturer or the gps device.
> >
> > the problem is that ios devices do not support a lot of the standard
> > bluetooth profiles, notably spp, which the product manual for the gps
> > you mentioned says it uses.
> 
> Funny enough that it works fine with iOS.

that's because it's mfi-certified, which means it can use a non-native
bluetooth profile.

if it wasn't mfi certified, it would not be able to use spp.

that's what the mfi certification is for (in this case anyway).
0
nospam
2/23/2014 8:35:14 PM
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:

> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> 
> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.

Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?

Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/23/2014 9:38:30 PM
On 2014-02-23 21:38:30 +0000, tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> said:

> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
> 
>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>> 
>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> 
> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
> 
> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

Any Usenet client which can deal with Unicode UTF8.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 9:53:58 PM
On 22 Feb 2014 23:17:25 -0800, Doug Anderson wrote:

> I'd actually like to know what people's individual experiences are in
> individual places.  I expect to be in Slovenia, Germany, Italy and
> France at various times in the next year, but I'd be interested in
> hearing people's experiences in other places (for future reference if
> for no other reason).

Not for data, Doug, just for voice, but in both France (at a Orange
storefront) and in Italy (at a mall kiosk for an Italian carrier (whose
name I no longer recall, but one of the major ones)), 10 Euros once got me
a basic, non-contract, voice SIM with 10 Euros worth of airtime, to expire
in a month (France) or a year (Italy), respectively.

At the time I had no need for data, hence didn't inquire, hence don't know,
sorry. HTH a little more. And apologies if I sounded hissy earlier. -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/23/2014 10:02:34 PM
On 22 Feb 2014 22:17:49 GMT, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:

>On 2014-02-22, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>> In message <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me> 
>>   Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
>>> On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>>>> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
>>>> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
>>>> and avoid the hassles of tethering.
>>
>>> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS
>>
>>> Verizon does not
>>
>> But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.
>
>My Verizon iPhone has a SIM. Go figure...  ; )

My understanding is the that SIM is for the LTE band, which is not a
lot differnt from GSM.
0
nobody
2/23/2014 10:25:10 PM
On 2014-02-23, nobody@nada.com <nobody@nada.com> wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2014 22:17:49 GMT, Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2014-02-22, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
>>> In message <leamia$l07$1@dont-email.me> 
>>>   Zaidy036 <Zaidy036@isp.spam> wrote:
>>>> On 2/22/2014 11:03 AM, Savageduck wrote:
>>>>> unless you have one of the older ipads that has no sim slot (which i
>>>>> vaguely recall you mentioning), you should get the free t-mobile plan
>>>>> and avoid the hassles of tethering.
>>>
>>>> Only AT&T and T-Mobile in USA use SIMS
>>>
>>>> Verizon does not
>>>
>>> But all iPads (and iPhones) with GPS have SIMs.
>>
>>My Verizon iPhone has a SIM. Go figure...  ; )
>
> My understanding is the that SIM is for the LTE band, which is not a
> lot differnt from GSM.

My comment was tongue-in-cheek - hence the wink. ; )

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/23/2014 10:26:28 PM
In article <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
<mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:

> > All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
> > (alt + =) to give you �.
> > ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> 
> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?

that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt. 

the option key now says both option and alt because windows called it
alt, with alt being much smaller.

for windows, there's some key sequence for non-ascii characters that
nobody can remember.
0
nospam
2/23/2014 10:33:37 PM
On 2014-02-23 15:01:49 +0000, David Taylor 
<david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> said:

> On 23/02/2014 13:53, Erilar wrote:
> []
>> My digital camera fits in a smaller pocket and has more things I can vary
>> as well as being easier to point, but can't take indoor shots without
>> either flash or a really steady hand. The iPad camera is a useful
>> supplement, not a substitute.
> 
> Actually, I now find that it has to be a "photographic outing" before I 
> take my DSLR.  Yes, a steady hand or bracing will help greatly with 
> indoor shots, and yes, flash can be very handy, but a lot of the time 
> the iPad camera can be enough on its own for me.  Let's see if I can 
> find some indoor shots - these are either Moto-G Smart-phone or iPad, 
> maybe it will say in the EXIF data - no, that's been stripped:

Well there is still some data there:
< 
http://regex.info/exif.cgi?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FBbxWWxCIEAA5HsZ.jpg%3Alarge 
>

> 
>    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgMkkrNIIAAwfei.jpg:large
>    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfuTNzPIcAAvzoU.jpg:large
>    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeHOtP8IAAAQbpS.jpg:large
>    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbxWWxCIEAA5HsZ.jpg:large
> 
> No, I'm not printing these as 10 x 8 for wall display!  Just snapshots for fun.

....and for that purpose those are fine.

My iPhone is my camera of last resort, when my D300S or G11 are not 
handy. I have been seriously considering the Fujifilm APS-C X-Pro1 as a 
way to lighten my DSLR burden and maintain image quality. I don't need 
24+MP or a FF DSLR.
< http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/x/fujifilm_x_pro1/ >

They offer a fair number of X-mount lenses, and in the usual course of 
things I have my other cameras to fall back on.
< http://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/xf_lens/roadmap/index.html >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 10:37:43 PM
On 2014-02-23 22:06:19 +0000, Alan Browne 
<alan.browne@FreelunchVideotron.ca> said:

> On 2014.02.23, 16:38 , tlvp wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
>> 
>>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>>> 
>>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
>>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
>> 
>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <d
> ing> .
>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Us
> enet
>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>> 
>> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
> 
> "option =" is ≠

Yup! "Option/Alt" is the same key on my Mac, and that gets me to ≠ with 
no effort at all.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 10:42:23 PM
On 2014-02-23 22:33:37 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> In article <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
> <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
> 
>>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>>> (alt + =) to give you ‚.
>>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
>> 
>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
> 
> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.

Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So 
who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to 
differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it 
together with "=" to get to "≠".

> 
> the option key now says both option and alt because windows called it
> alt, with alt being much smaller.
> 
> for windows, there's some key sequence for non-ascii characters that
> nobody can remember.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 10:47:22 PM
On 2014-02-23 07:17:25 +0000, Doug Anderson 
<ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> said:

> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:
> 
>> In article <ovob1y3crr.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>> Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm asking if there is a way that a visitor can get a data plan at a
>>> modest price, and what that price is.  If there is, _then_ I'm
>>> interested in knowing where to get that sort of SIM.
>> 
>> Please say where you are likely to be going in the next year and I
>> will have my agents in those countries search for complete answers for
>> you. Surely you are not so wedded to your mobile appendices that this
>> matter will determine where you go?
> 
> I'd actually like to know what people's individual experiences are in
> individual places.  I expect to be in Slovenia, Germany, Italy and
> France at various times in the next year, but I'd be interested in
> hearing people's experiences in other places (for future reference if
> for no other reason).

You might want to try these guys, considering you are UK based.
< http://www.dataroam.co.uk/products/european-data-sim-card >

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/23/2014 10:50:41 PM
David Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> On 23/02/2014 13:53, Erilar wrote:
> []
>> My digital camera fits in a smaller pocket and has more things I can vary
>> as well as being easier to point, but can't take indoor shots without
>> either flash or a really steady hand. The iPad camera is a useful
>> supplement, not a substitute.
> 
> Actually, I now find that it has to be a "photographic outing" before I
> take my DSLR.  Yes, a steady hand or bracing will help greatly with
> indoor shots, and yes, flash can be very handy, but a lot of the time the
> iPad camera can be enough on its own for me.  Let's see if I can find
> some indoor shots - these are either Moto-G Smart-phone or iPad, maybe it
> will say in the EXIF data - no, that's been stripped:
> 
>   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgMkkrNIIAAwfei.jpg:large
>   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BfuTNzPIcAAvzoU.jpg:large
>   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BeHOtP8IAAAQbpS.jpg:large
>   https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BbxWWxCIEAA5HsZ.jpg:large
> 
> No, I'm not printing these as 10 x 8 for wall display!  Just snapshots for fun.

I never do big ones anyway8-). But I was able to get some nice shots in a
situation where flash is really verboten, and was only using them snapshot
size, so that works well.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/23/2014 11:09:14 PM
In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
> 
> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So 
> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to 
> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it 
> together with "=" to get to "�".

the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.
0
nospam
2/24/2014 12:34:48 AM
In article <240220141311136651%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> On a Mac it is Option + = (although tehnically the key is no longer
> labelled "Option").

it's still labelled option.

they *added* alt to the key. they didn't remove anything.

some keyboards might have a symbol instead of 'option' though.
0
nospam
2/24/2014 12:34:49 AM
In article <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
<mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
> > 
> > WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> > Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> > 
> > All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
> > (alt + =) to give you ���.
> > ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> 
> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
> 
> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

Alt + = may not work on an iPad (which is one of the crossposted
newsgroups). 

On a Mac it is Option + = (although tehnically the key is no longer
labelled "Option").
0
Your
2/24/2014 1:01:01 AM
In article <2014022319010791308-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-24 00:34:48 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> > In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
> >> 
> >> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So
> >> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to
> >> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it
> >> together with "=" to get to "�".
> > 
> > the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
> > switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
> > really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.
> 
> ...and then there is Apple's wordless "Command" key.

None of the non-alphanumeric keys on the latest Apple keyboard have
their names in words, just silly symbols.  :-(

I'm not sure when "Alt" was added to the old keyboards. My beige
AppleDesign Keyboard (from 1996) has both "Alt" and "Option" properly
written on the key. As does my mother's slightly newer G4 iBook laptop.

On older keyboards, the "Command" key has both an Apple symbol and a
"splat" / "daisy" / "clover" symbol ... making it easier when helping
somone over the phone to tell them to press "Apple C" (or whatever).
0
Your
2/24/2014 1:01:01 AM
In article <2014022319010791308-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-24 00:34:48 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> 
> > In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >>> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
> >> 
> >> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So
> >> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to
> >> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it
> >> together with "=" to get to "�".
> > 
> > the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
> > switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
> > really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.
> 
> ...and then there is Apple's wordless "Command" key.

The "Alt" text may have been added to the "Option" key back when Apple
was shipping the Mac with the in-built DOS compatibility card.
0
Your
2/24/2014 1:01:01 AM
In article <201402232144094428-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-24 04:43:54 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:
> 
> > In message <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>
> >   tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
> > 
> >>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> >>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> >>> 
> >>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
> >>> (alt + =) to give you ���.
> >>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> > 
> >> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
> >> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
> >> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
> > 
> > ��� works fine with slrn.
> 
> As it should.

Except to speak Slrn you have to be Harry Potter.  ;-)
0
Your
2/24/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-02-24 06:17:53 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <201402232144094428-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-24 04:43:54 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:
>> 
>>> In message <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>
>>> tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>>>>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>>>>> 
>>>>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>>>>> (alt + =) to give you ���.
>>>>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
>>> 
>>>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>>>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>>>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>>> 
>>> ��� works fine with slrn.
>> 
>> As it should.
> 
> Except to speak Slrn you have to be Harry Potter.  ;-)

Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-02-24 00:34:48 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>>> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
>> 
>> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So
>> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to
>> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it
>> together with "=" to get to "�".
> 
> the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
> switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
> really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.

....and then there is Apple's wordless "Command" key.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 3:01:07 AM
On 2014-02-24, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-24 00:34:48 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>
>> In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>>> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
>>> 
>>> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So
>>> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to
>>> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it
>>> together with "=" to get to "‚".
>> 
>> the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
>> switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
>> really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.
>
> ...and then there is Apple's wordless "Command" key.

Also know as the splat key, the clover leaf key, the highway interchange
key, the places of interest symbol key, and so on.  : D

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/24/2014 3:32:34 AM
In message <201402231140262646-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-22 19:15:04 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:

> << Le Snip >>

>> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.

> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?

It is many people's idea of not equal, especially programmers.

> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
> (alt + =) to give you ≠.

That's a mathematician's folly.

-- 
"If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect."
0
Lewis
2/24/2014 4:42:46 AM
In message <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net> 
  tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:

>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>> 
>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use 
>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.

> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?

≠ works fine with slrn.

-- 
YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN
THEY BECOME? --Hogfather
0
Lewis
2/24/2014 4:43:54 AM
On 2014-02-24 05:18:54 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <2014022319010791308-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-24 00:34:48 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022314472241412-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> that's for a mac, and it's option, not alt.
>>>> 
>>>> Yup! ...and on this Mac the keyboard has alt/option as a single key. So
>>>> who cares? it is one key on my Mac keyboard and doesn't seem to
>>>> differentiate if I am thinking "alt" or "option" when I press it
>>>> together with "=" to get to "�".
>>> 
>>> the correct name is option. alt was added with the influx of windows
>>> switchers. older mac keyboards just say option although that doesn't
>>> really matter anymore. some have a symbol instead of 'option'.
>> 
>> ...and then there is Apple's wordless "Command" key.
> 
> The "Alt" text may have been added to the "Option" key back when Apple
> was shipping the Mac with the in-built DOS compatibility card.

The first Mac keyboard I recall having alt/option on that particular 
key was my 1998 slot loading G3 running OS8 (a nice subdued graphite). 
I had one of the Performa 6400's but I don't remember how that keyboard 
was set up.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 5:41:33 AM
On 2014-02-24 04:43:54 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <rp401md444wk.8rdek4m3ht5o.dlg@40tude.net>
>   tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
> 
>>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>>> 
>>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
>>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
> 
>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
> 
> ≠ works fine with slrn.

As it should.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 5:44:09 AM
On 2014-02-24 04:42:46 +0000, Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> said:

> In message <201402231140262646-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>
>   Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-22 19:15:04 +0000, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> said:
> 
>> << Le Snip >>
> 
>>> vast majority != all apps, which is what i said.
> 
>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> 
> It is many people's idea of not equal, especially programmers.

My programming experience was limited to FORTRAN back in 1970-71.

>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
> 
> That's a mathematician's folly.

Well, silly me.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 5:46:19 AM
In article <240220141816041638%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> None of the non-alphanumeric keys on the latest Apple keyboard have
> their names in words, just silly symbols.  :-(

depends on region. non-us keyboards have symbols.

us keyboard:
<https://www.apple.com/keyboard/images/hero_2.jpg>

> I'm not sure when "Alt" was added to the old keyboards. My beige
> AppleDesign Keyboard (from 1996) has both "Alt" and "Option" properly
> written on the key. As does my mother's slightly newer G4 iBook laptop.

somewhere in the adb era but i don't know exactly when. 

> On older keyboards, the "Command" key has both an Apple symbol and a
> "splat" / "daisy" / "clover" symbol ... making it easier when helping
> somone over the phone to tell them to press "Apple C" (or whatever).

it still has both, but that also depends on region. non-us won't have
the word.
0
nospam
2/24/2014 6:07:40 AM
In article <240220141818541857%YourName@YourISP.com>, Your Name
<YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

> The "Alt" text may have been added to the "Option" key back when Apple
> was shipping the Mac with the in-built DOS compatibility card.

sounds logical.
0
nospam
2/24/2014 6:07:42 AM
In article <2014022321461920721-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> > 
> >> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
> >> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
> > 
> > It is many people's idea of not equal, especially programmers.
> 
> My programming experience was limited to FORTRAN back in 1970-71.

fortran .ne. c++

or did you use /= instead?
0
nospam
2/24/2014 6:07:43 AM
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 14:50:41 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2014-02-23 07:17:25 +0000, Doug Anderson 
><ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> said:
>
>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> writes:
>> 
>>> In article <ovob1y3crr.fsf@ethel.the.log>,
>>> Doug Anderson <ethelthelogremovethis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I'm asking if there is a way that a visitor can get a data plan at a
>>>> modest price, and what that price is.  If there is, _then_ I'm
>>>> interested in knowing where to get that sort of SIM.
>>> 
>>> Please say where you are likely to be going in the next year and I
>>> will have my agents in those countries search for complete answers for
>>> you. Surely you are not so wedded to your mobile appendices that this
>>> matter will determine where you go?
>> 
>> I'd actually like to know what people's individual experiences are in
>> individual places.  I expect to be in Slovenia, Germany, Italy and
>> France at various times in the next year, but I'd be interested in
>> hearing people's experiences in other places (for future reference if
>> for no other reason).
>
>You might want to try these guys, considering you are UK based.
>< http://www.dataroam.co.uk/products/european-data-sim-card >


No bargains there.
0
nobody
2/24/2014 8:51:07 AM
In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?

What cave do you live in?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/24/2014 9:38:03 AM
On 2014-02-24 09:38:03 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:

> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
> 
> What cave do you live in?

I guess you missed the point.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 1:07:08 PM
dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
> 
> What cave do you live in?

One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/24/2014 2:54:19 PM
On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:

> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
>> 
>> What cave do you live in?
> 
> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.

I guess you don't get it either.
When the use of the name of a fictional character of little 
significance to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble 
attempt at humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.

Do you guys get it now?
-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 4:29:10 PM
In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> Do you guys get it now?

I got it the first time.
0
Michelle
2/24/2014 5:49:30 PM
On 2014-02-24 17:49:30 +0000, Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> said:

> In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> Do you guys get it now?
> 
> I got it the first time.

....but you, like me just happens to be wallowing in the subtlety of old 
fart humor in the face of vapid pop culture.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there were those who didn't get it.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 6:24:09 PM
In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
> 
> > dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
> >> 
> >> What cave do you live in?
> > 
> > One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
> > introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
> 
> I guess you don't get it either.
> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little 
> significance to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble 
> attempt at humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
>

This makes little sense either. Look at your tenses, look at the 
tension (or really, the confusion) between the particular and the 
general. 
 
> Do you guys get it now?

Your explanation is supposed to help?

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/24/2014 8:52:54 PM
On 2014-02-24 20:52:54 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:

> In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
>> 
>>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
>>>> 
>>>> What cave do you live in?
>>> 
>>> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
>>> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
>> 
>> I guess you don't get it either.
>> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little
>> significance to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble
>> attempt at humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
>> 
> 
> This makes little sense either. Look at your tenses, look at the
> tension (or really, the confusion) between the particular and the
> general.
> 
>> Do you guys get it now?
> 
> Your explanation is supposed to help?

Sigh!

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/24/2014 9:10:16 PM
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> writes:

> On 22 Feb 2014 23:17:25 -0800, Doug Anderson wrote:
> 
> > I'd actually like to know what people's individual experiences are in
> > individual places.  I expect to be in Slovenia, Germany, Italy and
> > France at various times in the next year, but I'd be interested in
> > hearing people's experiences in other places (for future reference if
> > for no other reason).
> 
> Not for data, Doug, just for voice, but in both France (at a Orange
> storefront) and in Italy (at a mall kiosk for an Italian carrier (whose
> name I no longer recall, but one of the major ones)), 10 Euros once got me
> a basic, non-contract, voice SIM with 10 Euros worth of airtime, to expire
> in a month (France) or a year (Italy), respectively.

Yes, I've done this in both France and Germany for voice for a few
weeks.  Convenient and reasonably priced given my needs.

But it would be nice to get data in the same kind of way, in fact at
this point, I'd rather have the data than the voice!

0
Doug
2/24/2014 10:17:20 PM
In article <2014022413101658267-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-24 20:52:54 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> 
> > In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
> >> 
> >>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >>>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
> >>>> 
> >>>> What cave do you live in?
> >>> 
> >>> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
> >>> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
> >> 
> >> I guess you don't get it either.
> >> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little
> >> significance to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble
> >> attempt at humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
> >> 
> > 
> > This makes little sense either. Look at your tenses, look at the
> > tension (or really, the confusion) between the particular and the
> > general.
> > 
> >> Do you guys get it now?
> > 
> > Your explanation is supposed to help?
> 
> Sigh!

Keep on sighing, looking down your nose, that's the way! 

Compare your humour with... say.... mine! Now I am *genuinely* funny, 
an *absolute scream* in fact, and *normal* people, salt of the earth 
types, not your average usenet autistic, just roll about in paroxysms 
of laughter, kicking their feet in the air utterly helplessly when I 
enter a room. And that's even before I open my big fat mouth. 

Compare that with what happens when you do the same, if there are 
people there, they immediately turn into question mark characters, the 
font type and size depending on their prior human form. If there are 
none, these characters just spring out of nowhere in some default 
types and sizes depending on how the room's prefs are set.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/24/2014 10:47:22 PM
On 2014-02-24 22:47:22 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:

> In article <2014022413101658267-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-24 20:52:54 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022408291057796-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
>>>> 
>>>>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What cave do you live in?
>>>>> 
>>>>> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
>>>>> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
>>>> 
>>>> I guess you don't get it either.
>>>> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little
>>>> significance to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble
>>>> attempt at humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> This makes little sense either. Look at your tenses, look at the
>>> tension (or really, the confusion) between the particular and the
>>> general.
>>> 
>>>> Do you guys get it now?
>>> 
>>> Your explanation is supposed to help?
>> 
>> Sigh!
> 
> Keep on sighing, looking down your nose, that's the way!
> 
> Compare your humour with... say.... mine! Now I am *genuinely* funny,
> an *absolute scream* in fact, and *normal* people, salt of the earth
> types, not your average usenet autistic, just roll about in paroxysms
> of laughter, kicking their feet in the air utterly helplessly when I
> enter a room. And that's even before I open my big fat mouth.

i guess there is a conspicuous reason to provoke that sort of reaction 
to your presence.

> Compare that with what happens when you do the same, if there are
> people there, they immediately turn into question mark characters, the
> font type and size depending on their prior human form. If there are
> none, these characters just spring out of nowhere in some default
> types and sizes depending on how the room's prefs are set.

That just depends on the folks in the room. There have been many times 
that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and 
many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/25/2014 12:49:34 AM
In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> ... There have been many times 
> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and 
> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.

Sigh!

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/25/2014 4:39:09 AM
On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:

> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> ... There have been many times
>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
> 
> Sigh!

One of these days you might master that.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/25/2014 5:10:38 AM
In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> 
> > In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> ... There have been many times
> >> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
> >> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
> > 
> > Sigh!
> 
> One of these days you might master that.

There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives 
people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you 
know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting, 
sarcastic, humble, etc.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/25/2014 7:07:33 AM
On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:

> In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> ... There have been many times
>>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
>>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
>>> 
>>> Sigh!
>> 
>> One of these days you might master that.
> 
> There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
> people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
> know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
> sarcastic, humble, etc.

Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/25/2014 7:50:41 AM
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:53:58 -0800, Savageduck, responding to:

>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>> 
>> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
> 
> Any Usenet client which can deal with Unicode UTF8.

Oh? Dialog certainly "can deal with" your "... (alt + =) to give you ≠" but
there's nothing in UTF-8 requiring the keystroke [Alt]-[=] to produce a "≠"
-- so, again, I ask you: "what (explicit) Usenet client ... might grok"
[Alt]-[=] as a means for producing a "≠"?

Thanks in advance, and cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/25/2014 8:25:30 AM
On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 17:06:19 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:

> On 2014.02.23, 16:38 , tlvp wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
>>
>>> WTF is "!=" supposed to mean?
>>> Is that your idea of "not equal to"?
>>>
>>> All you need to get to the correct symbol for *not equal to* is use
>>> (alt + =) to give you ≠.
>>> ...unless your Usenet client chokes on that sort of thing.
>>
>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>>
>> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
> 
> "option =" is ≠

Alas, "option =" isn't an option under Windows or Linux. But U+2260 should
be universal, no? U+2260 = ≠ . No proprietary key combo wanted or required.

But, FWiW, if you switch to US/International KB in Win Vista, at least,
"[AltGr]-[=]" = × and "[AltGr]-[+]" = ÷ , while both "[Alt]-[=]" and
"[Alt]-[+]" still just give you a [BEL]-like <ding> :-) . 

So much for universal standards, eh? Cheers, -- tlvp ("×" ≠ "÷" :-) )
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/25/2014 8:36:57 AM
In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
 Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> 
> > In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> >> 
> >>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> ... There have been many times
> >>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
> >>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
> >>> 
> >>> Sigh!
> >> 
> >> One of these days you might master that.
> > 
> > There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
> > people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
> > know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
> > sarcastic, humble, etc.
> 
> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.

There you go again, jumping to unwarranted conclusions! That is 
certainly not funny, it's pathetic really. I expect that you just 
cannot appreciate the difference between having heard of X and X being 
*in* one's life. 

What else are you are unaware of, keep talking. And take no comfort 
from Socrates about what true wisdom is.

-- 
dorayme
0
dorayme
2/25/2014 9:24:17 AM
On 2014-02-25 08:25:30 +0000, tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> said:

> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 13:53:58 -0800, Savageduck, responding to:
> 
>>> Hmm ... testing alt + = : ... my client emits a ^G or [BEL] sound, <ding> .
>>> Doesn't exactly choke on it, but doesn't grok it, either. FWIW, what Usenet
>>> client, apart from your "User-Agent: Unison/1.8.1", might grok it?
>>> 
>>> Thanks, though, for the idea :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
>> 
>> Any Usenet client which can deal with Unicode UTF8.
> 
> Oh? Dialog certainly "can deal with" your "... (alt + =) to give you ≠" but
> there's nothing in UTF-8 requiring the keystroke [Alt]-[=] to produce a "≠"
> -- so, again, I ask you: "what (explicit) Usenet client ... might grok"
> [Alt]-[=] as a means for producing a "≠"?
> 
> Thanks in advance, and cheers, -- tlvp

As you have already noted Unison for one, then there is slrn which 
seems able to deal with the idea that [alt/option] (on a Mac keyboard 
at least)+[=] will produce a "≠".

....and removing ourselves from Usenet, any text editor on a Mac is 
capable of producing ≠ with that key combination.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/25/2014 10:40:36 AM
In article <2014022502403616303-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> ...and removing ourselves from Usenet, any text editor on a Mac is 
> capable of producing � with that key combination.

And surprise surprise, most, if not all, newsreaders on a Mac can
display � correctly.  they can even display � properly.
0
Michelle
2/25/2014 2:53:03 PM
On Feb/25/2014 3:3657 AM, tlvp wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 17:06:19 -0500, Alan Browne wrote:
>
>> On 2014.02.23, 16:38 , tlvp wrote:
>>> On Sun, 23 Feb 2014 11:40:26 -0800, Savageduck wrote:
>>>
>>>> ...
>
> So much for universal standards, eh? Cheers, -- tlvp ("×" ≠ "÷" :-) )


You are right that there is no universal standard, but the Mac standard 
deserves to be imitated and widely adopted, because it is the most 
efficient. To be specific, for the U.S. Extended keyboard (and 
analogously for the other Extended keyboards: Finnish, Irish and 
Norwegian), option/alt plus a dead key like "=" will provide all the 
modified characters for all the European Latin alphabet languages and 
most of the mathematical characters. There is no need to memorize the 
UTF code, which may be universal but is hardly practical for wide usage.


-- 
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
||Arnold VICTOR, New York City, i. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>    ||
||Arnoldo VIKTORO, Nov-jorkurbo, t. e., <arvimideQ@Wearthlink.net>   ||
||Remove capital letters from e-mail address for correct address/    ||
||    Forigu majusklajn literojn el e-poŝta adreso por ĝusta adreso  ||
++====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====+====+=====+=====+=====+=====+====++
0
AV3
2/25/2014 4:00:55 PM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
> 
>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
>>>>> What cave do you live in?
>>> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
>> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
> 
> I guess you don't get it either.
> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little significance
> to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble attempt at
> humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
> 
> Do you guys get it now?

Silly responses tend to elicit varying responses in turm 8-)

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/25/2014 4:09:18 PM
Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-24 14:54:19 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:
>> 
>>> dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <2014022400154667422-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Who is this Harry Potter of whom you speak?
>>>>>> What cave do you live in?
>>>> One with no grandchildren, obiously.  When Harry first appeared, I was
>>> introduced by my granddaughter, who eas then a child.
>> 
>> I guess you don't get it either.
>> When the use of the name of a fictional character of little significance
>> to me, or the thread is made as a non sequitur in a feeble attempt at
>> humor, my responding question was my humorous reaction.
>> 
>> Do you guys get it now?
> 
> Silly responses tend to elicit varying responses in turm 8-)

Correction: I don't live in a Turm, but a Hoehle.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/25/2014 4:16:35 PM
In article <1lmw3piopruns.1ivw0rcduddix.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
<mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:

> > "option =" is �
> 
> Alas, "option =" isn't an option under Windows or Linux.

on windows, use the alt key instead of option.

alt = would work if they had a clue about good software design. 

> But U+2260 should
> be universal, no? U+2260 = � . No proprietary key combo wanted or required.

no it most definitely should not.

forcing people to remember numerical sequences for different characters
is utterly absurd. 

since the option/alt key is on every keyboard, it's not proprietary
either.

which is more intuitive:

option = for � (makes perfect sense)
or
u+2260, a number you have to memorize which has absolutely no meaning
to humans. maybe it means something to a unicode geek but that's about
it.

> But, FWiW, if you switch to US/International KB in Win Vista, at least,
> "[AltGr]-[=]" = * and "[AltGr]-[+]" = � , while both "[Alt]-[=]" and
> "[Alt]-[+]" still just give you a [BEL]-like <ding> :-) . 

further proof that windows is poorly designed, as if further proof was
needed.
0
nospam
2/25/2014 4:21:05 PM
In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> > In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> >>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> ... There have been many times
> >>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
> >>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
> >>> 
> >>> Sigh!
> >> 
> >> One of these days you might master that.
> > 
> > There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
> > people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
> > know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
> > sarcastic, humble, etc.
> 
> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.

The least sensible people on the planet are those who haven't seen /
read Harry Potter because they insanely believe the magic in it is
"real" and "bad".
0
Your
2/25/2014 7:49:22 PM
On 2014-02-25 19:49:22 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>>> In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>>>>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> ... There have been many times
>>>>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
>>>>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sigh!
>>>> 
>>>> One of these days you might master that.
>>> 
>>> There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
>>> people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
>>> know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
>>> sarcastic, humble, etc.
>> 
>> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.
> 
> The least sensible people on the planet are those who haven't seen /
> read Harry Potter because they insanely believe the magic in it is
> "real" and "bad".

Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything 
*Harry Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", 
"sorcerer", "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent 
adolescents, and the somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and 
the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.

The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed 
to generate millions of $$ & ��, and for that she is to be applauded.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/25/2014 10:38:38 PM
In article <2014022514383837123-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-25 19:49:22 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
> > In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> >>> In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>>> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
> >>>>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> ... There have been many times
> >>>>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
> >>>>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Sigh!
> >>>> 
> >>>> One of these days you might master that.
> >>> 
> >>> There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
> >>> people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
> >>> know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
> >>> sarcastic, humble, etc.
> >> 
> >> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.
> > 
> > The least sensible people on the planet are those who haven't seen /
> > read Harry Potter because they insanely believe the magic in it is
> > "real" and "bad".
> 
> Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything 
> *Harry Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", 
> "sorcerer", "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent 
> adolescents, and the somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
> Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and 
> the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.

I never said everyone who has seen / read it was stupid, simply those
who believe it to be "real".

I haven't read the books either and I've only seen bits and pieces of
some of the movies and played some of the games.




> The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed 
> to generate millions of $$ & ��, and for that she is to be applauded.

And it's still on-going. There's a Pottermania website and a theme
park. The Narnia and Golden Compass movies tried to cash-in, but didn't
fare so well - I think the Narnia ones have been cancelled (not helped
by having so long between each movie that the main child actors are
simply now too old).

The Angry Birds franchise is also achieving similar results of
"greatness", with games, spin-off merchandise and toys, TV shows, and a
planned movie and theme park.
0
Your
2/26/2014 12:21:39 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>".
> 
> Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything *Harry
> Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", "sorcerer",
> "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent adolescents, and the
> somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.

It's a lot more imaginative than the sparkly vampires and such aimed at
teenagers, which even descriptions of make me gag.  There is actually some
excellent fantasy fiction hiding on the "young"adult" shelves here and
there.


> Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and
> the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.

Ah, but some of us enjoy fantasy as well. In fact, there are fantasy
authors who have a better grasp of medieval life and mind set than some of
the horrible but popular "historical" novelists out there.
> 
> The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed
> to generate millions of $$ & ££, and for that she is to be applauded.

No question there!


-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/26/2014 6:10:42 PM
On 2014-02-26 18:10:42 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> ".
>> 
>> Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything *Harry
>> Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", "sorcerer",
>> "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent adolescents, and the
>> somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
> 
> It's a lot more imaginative than the sparkly vampires and such aimed at
> teenagers, which even descriptions of make me gag.

So you do have some discerning taste. ;-)

> There is actually some excellent fantasy fiction hiding on the 
> "young"adult" shelves here and
> there.
> 
> 
>> Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and
>> the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.
> 
> Ah, but some of us enjoy fantasy as well. In fact, there are fantasy
> authors who have a better grasp of medieval life and mind set than some of
> the horrible but popular "historical" novelists out there.

That's  OK, and I understand that you enjoy whatever you might read. 
However, that genre is not a part of my library (I actually have a 
library), or my reading want list.

When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is 
for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who 
add an element of humor to their writing.
For some entertaining reality/history rooted fiction I would suggest 
exploring the work of Alan Furst, Elmore Leonard, Jeff Shaara, Joseph 
Wambaugh, & Peter Matthiessen are among some on my book shelves. (Both 
Peter Matthiessen and Jeff Shaara also write non-fiction.)

>> The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed
>> to generate millions of $$ & ��, and for that she is to be applauded.
> 
> No question there!


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/26/2014 8:01:49 PM
In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
<snip>
> 
> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is 
> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who 
> add an element of humor to their writing.

Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
humour in Harry Potter.
0
Your
2/26/2014 8:11:36 PM
On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 14:38:38 -0800, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

>On 2014-02-25 19:49:22 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>
>> In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>>>> In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>>>>>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ... There have been many times
>>>>>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
>>>>>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Sigh!
>>>>> 
>>>>> One of these days you might master that.
>>>> 
>>>> There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
>>>> people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
>>>> know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
>>>> sarcastic, humble, etc.
>>> 
>>> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.
>> 
>> The least sensible people on the planet are those who haven't seen /
>> read Harry Potter because they insanely believe the magic in it is
>> "real" and "bad".
>
>Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything 
>*Harry Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", 
>"sorcerer", "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent 
>adolescents, and the somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
>Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and 
>the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.
>
>The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed 
>to generate millions of $$ & ��, and for that she is to be applauded.

Make that about a billion dollars.
0
nobody
2/26/2014 8:35:11 PM
On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> 
> <snip>
>> 
>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>> add an element of humor to their writing.
> 
> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
> humour in Harry Potter.

I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/26/2014 8:38:03 PM
In article <2014022612380332774-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
> 
> > In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >> 
> > <snip>
> >> 
> >> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
> >> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
> >> add an element of humor to their writing.
> > 
> > Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
> > humour in Harry Potter.
> 
> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.

Me neither, but you said you liked books with an element of humour, and
Harry Potter does seem to have that (but I haven't read them).
0
Your
2/26/2014 11:52:42 PM
In article <114qluz7neq8t$.k5m363cwced.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
<mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 09:11:36 +1300, Your Name wrote:
> > 
> > Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
> > humour in Harry Potter.
> 
> Indeed, it's all rather a big joke, whose author is laughing all the way to
> the bank and home again :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

The only one I can think of at the moment is the giant three-headed
guard dog which is named Fluffy.
0
Your
2/27/2014 1:01:01 AM
On 2014-02-26 23:52:42 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:

> In article <2014022612380332774-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>> <snip>
>>>> 
>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>> 
>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>> 
>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
> 
> Me neither, but you said you liked books with an element of humour, and
> Harry Potter does seem to have that (but I haven't read them).

Hell! I like Wile E. Coyote and the RoadRunner. I can find humor & 
silliness in all sorts of places without delving into adolescent 
fantasy, I have my own.
< 
http://hdfons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/wile_e_coyote_vector_by_thoomas-wallpaper.jpg 
>

-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/27/2014 1:18:22 AM
In message <260220141321397509%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <2014022514383837123-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-25 19:49:22 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>> > In article <2014022423504145549-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> >> On 2014-02-25 07:07:33 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>> >>> In article <2014022421103863235-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> >>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> >>>> On 2014-02-25 04:39:09 +0000, dorayme <do_ray_me@bigpond.com> said:
>> >>>>> In article <2014022416493452430-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> >>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>>> ... There have been many times
>> >>>>>> that folks I have had to deal with had no reason to laugh at all, and
>> >>>>>> many times the situation was nothing but hilarious.
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Sigh!
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> One of these days you might master that.
>> >>> 
>> >>> There you go again... I have heard that a sense of mystery gives
>> >>> people feelings of power. How long is this going to go on for, you
>> >>> know: ... you being mysterious and me being very sensible, cutting,
>> >>> sarcastic, humble, etc.
>> >> 
>> >> Sensible? With Harry Potter in your life, now that is funny.
>> > 
>> > The least sensible people on the planet are those who haven't seen /
>> > read Harry Potter because they insanely believe the magic in it is
>> > "real" and "bad".
>> 
>> Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything 
>> *Harry Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", 
>> "sorcerer", "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent 
>> adolescents, and the somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
>> Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and 
>> the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.

> I never said everyone who has seen / read it was stupid, simply those
> who believe it to be "real".

> I haven't read the books either and I've only seen bits and pieces of
> some of the movies and played some of the games.




>> The only believable magic involved is the way J. K. Rowling has managed 
>> to generate millions of $$ & ££, and for that she is to be applauded.

> And it's still on-going. There's a Pottermania website and a theme
> park. The Narnia and Golden Compass movies tried to cash-in, but didn't
> fare so well - I think the Narnia ones have been cancelled (not helped
> by having so long between each movie that the main child actors are
> simply now too old).

What child actors? The characters int eh Narnia series change. None of
the kids from the first movie/book are in the next movie.

> The Angry Birds franchise is also achieving similar results of
> "greatness", with games, spin-off merchandise and toys, TV shows, and a
> planned movie and theme park.

There's yet to be a bad Angry Birds game though. In fact, the newest one
is the best of them all.

-- 
Nothing gold can stay -- Robert Frost Stay gold -- Johnny Cade
0
Lewis
2/27/2014 1:38:37 AM
In message <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> 
  Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-26 18:10:42 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:

>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> ".
>>> 
>>> Strangely enough there are those who haven't read or seen anything *Harry
>>> Potter*, mostly because they haven't bought into the "magic", "sorcerer",
>>> "wizard", "witchery" BS targeted at prepubescent adolescents, and the
>>> somewhat silly adults who are along for the ride.
>> 
>> It's a lot more imaginative than the sparkly vampires and such aimed at
>> teenagers, which even descriptions of make me gag.

> So you do have some discerning taste. ;-)

>> There is actually some excellent fantasy fiction hiding on the 
>> "young"adult" shelves here and
>> there.
>> 
>> 
>>> Personally I am somewhat indifferent to the character, the concept, and
>>> the series, my preferred reading is mostly non-fiction and non-fantasy.
>> 
>> Ah, but some of us enjoy fantasy as well. In fact, there are fantasy
>> authors who have a better grasp of medieval life and mind set than some of
>> the horrible but popular "historical" novelists out there.

> That's  OK, and I understand that you enjoy whatever you might read. 
> However, that genre is not a part of my library (I actually have a 
> library), or my reading want list.

> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is 
> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who 
> add an element of humor to their writing.

I'd say any decent so-called fantasy writers are far more rooted in
reality than the vast majority of 'serious' writers.


-- 
Maybe I should have seen it as some kind of sign, except I don't believe
in them no more; no no, but I believe these things I can't forget, tho I
don't see you anymore.
0
Lewis
2/27/2014 1:40:49 AM
On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 09:11:36 +1300, Your Name wrote:

> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
> humour in Harry Potter.

Indeed, it's all rather a big joke, whose author is laughing all the way to
the bank and home again :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
-- 
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
0
tlvp
2/27/2014 2:35:02 AM
In message <270220141812059242%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <114qluz7neq8t$.k5m363cwced.dlg@40tude.net>, tlvp
> <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Feb 2014 09:11:36 +1300, Your Name wrote:
>> > 
>> > Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>> > humour in Harry Potter.
>> 
>> Indeed, it's all rather a big joke, whose author is laughing all the way to
>> the bank and home again :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp

> The only one I can think of at the moment is the giant three-headed
> guard dog which is named Fluffy.

Alas, earwax.

Ewww, troll bogeys.

Nearly everything Fred and George do.

Oh, sheesh, there's tons of humor and wit in the books. Darn good story
telling, interesting characters, dragons, ... everything you could
possibly want.

To paraphrase Miss Austen:

"The person, be it gentleman or lady, who has not pleasure in a Harry
Potter novel, must be intolerably stupid".

-- 
'Everything will be all right. From History's point of view, that is.
There really isn't any other.'
0
Lewis
2/27/2014 8:02:17 AM
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
> 
>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>> humour in Harry Potter.
> 
> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.

Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.



-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/28/2014 1:47:12 AM
On 2014-02-28 01:47:12 +0000, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> said:

> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>> 
>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
> 
> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
> close to the books,

I wouldn't know not having read the books or seen the movies.

> unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.

As far as Lord of the Rings goes, I haven't seen any of the Peter 
Jackson NZ productions, but back in the 70's when I was an obvious 
refugee from the 60's I quite enjoyed the Ralph Bakshi animated 
version. Bakshi always had a slightly twisted view of the World 
expressed in his animated work starting with his somewhat twisted 
X-rated "Fritz The Cat" & "Heavy Traffic". Those laid the foundation 
for "Wizards" his testbed for his rendition of Tolkien's work.

Now that was entertaining and humorous fantasy stuff, but I was 40 
years younger back then.


-- 
Regards,

Savageduck

0
Savageduck
2/28/2014 2:36:17 AM
On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>> 
>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>> 
>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.

Same here. Not really my thing.

> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.

From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
*could* have been).

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR
0
Jolly
2/28/2014 3:06:54 AM
In message <bnacqeFki8kU3@mid.individual.net> 
  Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>>> 
>>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>>> 
>>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.

> Same here. Not really my thing.

>> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
>> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.

> From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
> Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
> within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
> to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
> Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
> *could* have been).

I think for a lot of fans the fact that Arwen was transformed into a
real character really pissed them off.

There are, of course, the people who are--hmm, what's the word--scholars
of LotR. The sort of people who read it frequently and will have long
(sometiems decades long) discussions about the importance of Tom
Bombadil or about Éowyn's true role in the slaying of the Witch King who
hate the movies for esoteric, but perfectly reasonable reasons.

But most 'fanbois' of the books who dislike the movies dislike them
because *any* change is a bit like rewriting the Bible.

Of course, the Bible's been rewritten many times, but Details!

I *like* the movies. I like them a *lot*, but I also agree with the
'scholars' that the movies are in very real and very important ways,
entirely different. I just don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.

-- 
Well there are certain sections of New York, Major, that I wouldn't
advise you to try to invade
0
Lewis
2/28/2014 10:57:24 AM
Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>>> 
>>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>>> 
>>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
> 
> Same here. Not really my thing.
> 
>> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
>> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.
> 
> From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
> Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
> within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
> to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
> Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
> *could* have been).

Oh, I hugely enjoyed the Jackson version of LOTR, and I've read the series
more than once.  He won me over with his visualization of the Shire and I
wasn't disappointed by the rest 8-). It had to be cut a lot to squeeze into
three movies, of course, but some critics found every cut a crime.  I knew
I was going to see one man's 'translation" to film and I liked his.  Many
agreed with me and many disagreed.

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
2/28/2014 2:36:48 PM
In article <slrnlh0qsl.8ll.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

> There are, of course, the people who are--hmm, what's the word--scholars
> of LotR.

One of my daughter's professors had a PhD in the subject.  Rather, her
doctorate is in Tolkien, not just LoTR.
0
Michelle
2/28/2014 7:27:17 PM
In article <leq6u0$lgs$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
> > On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
> >>> 
> >>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
> >>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
> >>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
> >>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
> >>>> humour in Harry Potter.
> >>> 
> >>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
> > 
> > Same here. Not really my thing.
> > 
> >> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
> >> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.
> > 
> > From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
> > Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
> > within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
> > to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
> > Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
> > *could* have been).
> 
> Oh, I hugely enjoyed the Jackson version of LOTR, and I've read the series
> more than once.  He won me over with his visualization of the Shire and I
> wasn't disappointed by the rest 8-). It had to be cut a lot to squeeze into
> three movies, of course, but some critics found every cut a crime.  I knew
> I was going to see one man's 'translation" to film and I liked his.  Many
> agreed with me and many disagreed.

Personally I have no interest in reading or seeing Lord of the Rings
nor The Hobbit, but with The Hobbit where apparently he is stupidly
stretching the book to fill three movies and adding at least one
ridiculous new character simply to appease the "Politically Correct"
knobheads who would whine on about no female leads.   :-\
0
Your
2/28/2014 8:47:52 PM
In message <leq6u0$lgs$2@dont-email.me> 
  Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>>>> 
>>>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>>>> 
>>>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
>> 
>> Same here. Not really my thing.
>> 
>>> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
>>> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.
>> 
>> From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
>> Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
>> within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
>> to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
>> Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
>> *could* have been).

> Oh, I hugely enjoyed the Jackson version of LOTR, and I've read the series
> more than once.  He won me over with his visualization of the Shire and I
> wasn't disappointed by the rest 8-). It had to be cut a lot to squeeze into
> three movies, of course, but some critics found every cut a crime.  I knew
> I was going to see one man's 'translation" to film and I liked his.  Many
> agreed with me and many disagreed.

Well, of the 'scholars" i know it is not the cuts, it is the *changes*
that are the issue. As I said, I see their points and I even on some
level agree with their points. But, unlike so many people I know, I am
perfectly capable of separating my love for LoTR from the fact that I
really like the movies despite those changes.

And to be fair, a lot of the changes were simply making the story 1)
more accessible to a movie audience and 2) more in keeping with modern
mores and standards.

In a sense, Christopher Tolkien is right, his father would not have liked
the movies. I doubt he would have hated them with the white-hot fury of
Orodruin like Christopher does, but maybe.

-- 
The fact is that camels are far more intelligent than dolphins.
Footnote: Never trust a species that grins all the time. It's up to
something. --Pyramids
0
Lewis
2/28/2014 11:34:05 PM
In message <010320140947526030%YourName@YourISP.com> 
  Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <leq6u0$lgs$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>> > On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>> >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> >>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> >>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>> <snip>
>> >>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>> >>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>> >>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>> >>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>> >>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>> >>> 
>> >>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
>> > 
>> > Same here. Not really my thing.
>> > 
>> >> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
>> >> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.
>> > 
>> > From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
>> > Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
>> > within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
>> > to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
>> > Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
>> > *could* have been).
>> 
>> Oh, I hugely enjoyed the Jackson version of LOTR, and I've read the series
>> more than once.  He won me over with his visualization of the Shire and I
>> wasn't disappointed by the rest 8-). It had to be cut a lot to squeeze into
>> three movies, of course, but some critics found every cut a crime.  I knew
>> I was going to see one man's 'translation" to film and I liked his.  Many
>> agreed with me and many disagreed.

> Personally I have no interest in reading or seeing Lord of the Rings
> nor The Hobbit, but with The Hobbit where apparently he is stupidly
> stretching the book to fill three movies and adding at least one
> ridiculous new character simply to appease the "Politically Correct"
> knobheads who would whine on about no female leads.   :-\

<http://boingboing.net/2013/12/30/genderswitched-bilbo-makes-the.html>

-- 
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
0
Lewis
2/28/2014 11:35:23 PM
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
> In article <leq6u0$lgs$2@dont-email.me>, Erilar
> <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>> Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> wrote:
>>> On 2014-02-28, Erilar <drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:
>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 2014-02-26 20:11:36 +0000, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> said:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> In article <2014022612014928934-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>>>> When it comes to fiction, contemporary, or era based, my preference is
>>>>>>> for authors with their work rooted in some sort of reality. or some who
>>>>>>> add an element of humor to their writing.
>>>>>>> Even from what little I've seen of the movies, there's quite a bit of
>>>>>> humour in Harry Potter.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I haven't seen, or had any desire to see any of the movies.
>>> 
>>> Same here. Not really my thing.
>>> 
>>>> Unlike the vast majority of movies "based on" books, these are remarkably
>>>> close to the books, unlike the Lord of the Rings movies.
>>> 
>>> From time to time I see someone make that comment about Lord of the
>>> Rings; and find it confusing. I read all three Lord of the Rings books
>>> within half a year before seeing the first movie, and found the movies
>>> to be closer to the books than *most* crap movies put out today (I Am
>>> Legend and I, Robot spring to mind as clear examples of just how bad it
>>> *could* have been).
>> 
>> Oh, I hugely enjoyed the Jackson version of LOTR, and I've read the series
>> more than once.  He won me over with his visualization of the Shire and I
>> wasn't disappointed by the rest 8-). It had to be cut a lot to squeeze into
>> three movies, of course, but some critics found every cut a crime.  I knew
>> I was going to see one man's 'translation" to film and I liked his.  Many
>> agreed with me and many disagreed.
> 
> Personally I have no interest in reading or seeing Lord of the Rings
> nor The Hobbit, but with The Hobbit where apparently he is stupidly
> stretching the book to fill three movies and adding at least one
> ridiculous new character simply to appease the "Politically Correct"
> knobheads who would whine on about no female leads.   :-\

The Hobbit movies are "based on" the book about as closely as the average
movie is "based on" a random book.  I just watch them as fun fantasy
loosely based in Middle Earth 8-)

-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
3/1/2014 1:30:45 PM
Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <slrnlh0qsl.8ll.g.kreme@amelia.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:
> 
>> There are, of course, the people who are--hmm, what's the word--scholars
>> of LotR.
> 
> One of my daughter's professors had a PhD in the subject.  Rather, her
> doctorate is in Tolkien, not just LoTR.

As she knows, then, there's a lot more to Tolkien than LOTR 8-)
-- 
Erilar, biblioholic medievalist with iPad
0
Erilar
3/1/2014 1:30:46 PM
In article <lesne6$v51$3@dont-email.me>, Erilar
<drache@chibardun.netinvalid> wrote:

> >> There are, of course, the people who are--hmm, what's the word--scholars
> >> of LotR.
> > 
> > One of my daughter's professors had a PhD in the subject.  Rather, her
> > doctorate is in Tolkien, not just LoTR.
> 
> As she knows, then, there's a lot more to Tolkien than LOTR 8-)

That she does.
0
Michelle
3/1/2014 3:41:49 PM
Reply:

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Mac Stuff CDs, A to Z, updated 2007/May/19, and Win & Mac programs, 'WinMac', 'PC/MaC', 'Win-Mac', 'Multi', 'Multi-Platform', 'MultiFormat', 'MULTIOS', 'HYBRID' -------------------------------------------------------- DFT Super Bundle for Apple Final Cut Pro, 4 CDs The DFT Super Bundle includes full versions of: 55mm, Digital Film Lab, Composite Suite, and zMatte. DFT Filter Bundle for Apple Final Cut Pro, 1 CD The DFT Filter Bundle includes full versions of: 55mm and Digital Film Lab. DFT Keyer Bundle for Apple Fi...

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