<URL:http://www.sun.com/expertexchange/>
| Opteron and x86: Raising the Standard on Industry Standards

| Find out why there is very little 'standard' about Sun's new industry-
| standard servers and workstations. Join John Fowler, EVP of Sun's
| Network Systems Group for a 60-minute live Q&A session. Together with
| a panel of Sun experts, he'll answer your questions regarding Sun's
| low cost, high performance Opteron systems.

| Speakers:
| # John Fowler, Executive Vice President, Network Systems Group
| # Jack O'Brien, Group Marketing Manager, x86 OS Platforms
| # Brian Healy, Group Marketing Manager, Network Systems Group
| # John Fanelli, Senior Director Marketing, Network Systems Group
| # Matt Stander, Engineering Product Architect, Network Systems Group
| # Rajesh Shakkarwar, Product Line Director, Network Systems Group

| Thursday, Sept. 9th
| 10-11 a.m. PDT
| 1-2 p.m. EDT
| 6-7 p.m. GMT

Looks like a great opportunity to give feedback to product management.

John
groenveld@acm.org

In article <cgqpt3$1ff$1@neuromancer.cse.psu.edu>,
John D Groenveld <groenvel@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
><URL:http://www.sun.com/expertexchange/>
>| Opteron and x86: Raising the Standard on Industry Standards

The transcript from the Q&A in PDF is now online in the Expert Exchange 
Archive section.

John
groenveld@acm.org

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:51:28 +0000 (UTC) groenvel@cse.psu.edu (John D Groenveld) wrote:
> In article <cgqpt3$1ff$1@neuromancer.cse.psu.edu>,
> John D Groenveld <groenvel@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>><URL:http://www.sun.com/expertexchange/>
>>| Opteron and x86: Raising the Standard on Industry Standards
>
> The transcript from the Q&A in PDF is now online in the Expert Exchange 
> Archive section.

| Q: Re: laptop plans.  Please give us a choice of UNIX or PeeCee
| keyboard layouts.  Trying to use vi on a PC keyboard is a killer.
| Control to the left of A, please (like Sun's current UNIX-style
| layout)!

Of course this is a dumb question (at least the afterthought is dumb)
because control key placement doesn't affect vi, really, and I doubt
there's a laptop made today with a 'hard' caps lock key, ie the keys
are all mappable even on the text console.  The killer for vi is
distant placement of the ESC key.  On most laptops I've seen, where
it's too far, it's near impossible to get a good mapping just because
of special-function laptop keys in the vicinity.  Still though, I do
very well just with caps-lock/control swapping.

| Q: Have you talked to Checkpoint and SecureClient support to enable
| SecurID authenticated VPN connections?

Me: probably better to go the open source route here.

Another super interesting one:

| Q: What is the timeframe for Studio 9 in 64-bit for Opteron?
| A: Studio 10, sync'd with Solaris 10. [paraphrased]

It's a 10 page pdf, very interesting if you're interested in Sun
and Opteron.  I only wish someone had asked about a QUIET Opteron
desktop.  I want a dual head silent workstation.

/fc

Frank Cusack <fcusack@fcusack.com> writes in comp.sys.sun.hardware:
|I only wish someone had asked about a QUIET Opteron
|desktop.  I want a dual head silent workstation.

Easy - put an opteron in a closet far away and two Sun Rays on your
desktop.   (Okay, you can't run a setup like that on Solaris x86 yet,
and won't get much OpenGL performance, but otherwise it's easy... 8-P )

-- 
________________________________________________________________________
Alan Coopersmith * alanc@alum.calberkeley.org * Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
 http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~alanc/   *   http://blogs.sun.com/alanc/
  Working for, but definitely not speaking for, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article <m3ekl37vu8.fsf@magma.savecore.net>,
Frank Cusack  <fcusack@fcusack.com> wrote:
>Of course this is a dumb question (at least the afterthought is dumb)

More questions (smart or dumb) from customers and answers from Sun's
product managers and senior management about mobile workstation systems,
please.

>and Opteron.  I only wish someone had asked about a QUIET Opteron
>desktop.  I want a dual head silent workstation.

Anyone know how the Sun W2100z compares with the IBM A Pro regarding
noise? 
<URL:http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/intellistation/apro/>

John
groenveld@acm.org

In article <ci8l90$7n5$1@neuromancer.cse.psu.edu>,
John D Groenveld <groenvel@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>The transcript from the Q&A in PDF is now online in the Expert Exchange 
>Archive section.

<URL:http://www.sun.com/emrkt/campaign_docs/icee_0703/transcript-SEE-090904.pdf>

John
groenveld@acm.org

In article <m3ekl37vu8.fsf@magma.savecore.net>,
	Frank Cusack <fcusack@fcusack.com> writes:
> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:51:28 +0000 (UTC) groenvel@cse.psu.edu (John D Groenveld) wrote:
>> In article <cgqpt3$1ff$1@neuromancer.cse.psu.edu>,
>> John D Groenveld <groenvel@cse.psu.edu> wrote:
>>><URL:http://www.sun.com/expertexchange/>
>>>| Opteron and x86: Raising the Standard on Industry Standards
>>
>> The transcript from the Q&A in PDF is now online in the Expert Exchange 
>> Archive section.
> 
>| Q: Re: laptop plans.  Please give us a choice of UNIX or PeeCee
>| keyboard layouts.  Trying to use vi on a PC keyboard is a killer.
>| Control to the left of A, please (like Sun's current UNIX-style
>| layout)!
> 
> Of course this is a dumb question (at least the afterthought is dumb)
> because control key placement doesn't affect vi, really, and I doubt
> there's a laptop made today with a 'hard' caps lock key, ie the keys
> are all mappable even on the text console.  The killer for vi is
> distant placement of the ESC key.  On most laptops I've seen, where
> it's too far, it's near impossible to get a good mapping just because
> of special-function laptop keys in the vicinity.  Still though, I do
> very well just with caps-lock/control swapping.

As much as I prefer Sun's "Unix" layout, I doubt I've ever even hit the
"Esc" key - I've used Control-[ for so long it wouldn't occur to me to
hunt for a special key.


[...]

-- 
mailto:rlhamil@smart.net  http://www.smart.net/~rlhamil

Lasik/PRK theme music:
    "In the Hall of the Mountain King", from "Peer Gynt"

Frank Cusack wrote:
 > I only wish someone had asked about a QUIET Opteron
 > desktop.  I want a dual head silent workstation.
 >
 > /fc

I missed the event, otherwise I would have asked.

It uses probably the most powerful and loudest 120mm fan
one can find on the market: Delta AFB1212SHE.

The fan goes to full speed when temp goes high inside the box.

Two CPU fans on side of heatsinks are also very loud.

IMHO, the layout of those fans seems to be very inefficient:

http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33566171

The 1st CPU fan blows hot air toward the 2nd CPU and memory board.
The 120mm fan is mostly blocked by the 2nd CPU heatsink.

Another strange part is, the 2nd CPU heatsink is a little
different from the first one: it has an extra piece of
metal (with white labels) on the other side of the heatsink
(facing the 120mm fan):

http://www.pbase.com/image/33875012

Isn't that blocking the airflow ?!


Ok, in order to make it a perfect machine, I've been thinking
about using 3rd-party cooling solution (even water cooling)
to make it quieter and cooler, then I found out just now that
the socket board is not compatible with most if not all
popular K8 heatsinks/waterblocks.

http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33873843

In other words, I would have to make two holes on the board (if it's
possible at all in those positions) for each CPU in order to use 3rd
party cooling solution.

I am really pissed off :)

Sorry for the whining, I am one of those who have to sit next to
the computers, no remote place to put them.

Tao

Tao Chen wrote:

> Sorry for the whining, I am one of those who have to sit next to
> the computers, no remote place to put them.

I hear ya! I have a e4500, Sun Blade 1000 and a SUn E250 "RIGHT" next to 
me!!

Bruno Saverio Delbono wrote:
> Tao Chen wrote:
> 
>> Sorry for the whining, I am one of those who have to sit next to
>> the computers, no remote place to put them.
> 
> 
> I hear ya! I have a e4500, Sun Blade 1000 and a SUn E250 "RIGHT" next to 
> me!!

I personally *love* the background noise. The sound of a disk drive 
repeatedly seeking to find a dead track is comparable with Beethoven.

Tao Chen wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the whining, I am one of those who have to sit next to
> the computers, no remote place to put them.

Can you retain the original CPU heat sinks but replace the fans that are 
mounted on them?  (And, of course, the case fan and power supply fan.)

I replaced the hard disk, the power supply fan and the intake fan in my 
SB100 and completely removed the fan from the SunPCI-III board.  Now the 
machine is basically inaudible.

Well worth the very modest effort..
-- 
Doug

Doug Smith wrote:

> Tao Chen wrote:
> 
>>
>> Sorry for the whining, I am one of those who have to sit next to
>> the computers, no remote place to put them.
> 
> 
> Can you retain the original CPU heat sinks but replace the fans that are 
> mounted on them?  (And, of course, the case fan and power supply fan.)
> 

No reason why not.  Just as long as you pay attention if any white paste 
(heat sink paste) was used and continue that practice of using said 
paste on the heat sink.

> I replaced the hard disk, the power supply fan and the intake fan in my 
> SB100 and completely removed the fan from the SunPCI-III board.  Now the 
> machine is basically inaudible.

But for how long?

> 
> Well worth the very modest effort..

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

GreyCloud wrote:
> 
> But for how long?

Well, at least 3 years, pretty much non-stop.   :-)

FWIW, I took a lot of cpu temp readings before and after replacing the 
fans.  With the silent fans the temps do run about 3 degrees warmer. 
Still well under max specs.

Right now, (uptime > 22 days) prtdiag tells me:

Temperature sensors:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location       Sensor     Temperature  Lo   LoWarn  HiWarn    Hi  Status
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+em-board/cpu0 Die             62C    -10C    0C     85C     90C   okay
+em-board/cpu0 Ambient         36C    -10C    0C     40C     60C   okay


Bottom line here is that most hardware makers (even Sun) really skimp on 
fans (among other things, keyboards for example) in order to hit some 
magical price point.  Note that this magical price point was set by 
marketing NOT by engineering.

Much higher quality fans are available that run quiet and still move 
plenty of CFM.  But, they typically cost 10 bucks instead of 59 cents.

A workstation is part of a system and the most important peripheral in 
that system is the Pitiful Human Unit (PHU).  In my view, the PHU needs 
to be just as happy, if not more happy, than the CPU.  Certainly, the 
CPU is easier to replace, goes obsolete more quickly, etc..  ;-)
-- 
Doug

Doug Smith wrote:
> Can you retain the original CPU heat sinks but replace the fans that are 
> mounted on them?  (And, of course, the case fan and power supply fan.)

Yes, I can take CPU fan off the heatsink:

http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33931178

However, I don't know if I will find a better 70mm fan, 'better'
means at least the same CFM, but with lower dBA.

The model number is 2806-04W-B89.
It's made by NMB(MINEBEA) for sure, but I can't find this
specific part# on their website.

http://www.eminebea.com/usa/eMinebea

Looking at product catalog online, the number 89 after 'B' should
represent the performance.
The closest one I can find is '2806KL-04W-B60', which has spec:
AirFlow: 1.080 m3/min
Noise: 39.0 dB

Since the Opteron chip obviously generate lots of heat,
I cannot just replace the fan with a quiet one, because
quieter usally means lower airflow.

The heatsink is the most important part IMO.
Larger/copper/Better_designed heaksink should emanate
heat much better than this one, with the same fan,
which means the fan speed can be tuned lower.

Water cooling will be even better.

Same for the 120mm Fan, I can find a quieter one, but hardly
with the same power.

> I replaced the hard disk, the power supply fan and the intake fan in my 
> SB100 and completely removed the fan from the SunPCI-III board.  Now the 
> machine is basically inaudible.
> 
> Well worth the very modest effort..

I know. However, you cannot compare the heat in SB100 to
W2100z, which has TWO Opteron CPUs.
I cannot just take out the fans and hope it survive.

Tao

Doug Smith wrote:

> Right now, (uptime > 22 days) prtdiag tells me:
> 
> Temperature sensors:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Location       Sensor     Temperature  Lo   LoWarn  HiWarn    Hi  Status
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> +em-board/cpu0 Die             62C    -10C    0C     85C     90C   okay
> +em-board/cpu0 Ambient         36C    -10C    0C     40C     60C   okay
> 
> 

Very nice output.

I wonder if 'prtdiag' can give this data on W2100z (my box is dismantled 
right now :).

Tao Chen wrote:
> Doug Smith wrote:
> 
>> Right now, (uptime > 22 days) prtdiag tells me:
>>
>> Temperature sensors:
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>> Location       Sensor     Temperature  Lo   LoWarn  HiWarn    Hi  Status
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>
>> +em-board/cpu0 Die             62C    -10C    0C     85C     90C   okay
>> +em-board/cpu0 Ambient         36C    -10C    0C     40C     60C   okay
>>
>>
> 
> Very nice output.
> 
> I wonder if 'prtdiag' can give this data on W2100z (my box is dismantled 
> right now :).

Never mind. Just installed the 1st CPU back and tried:

# prtdiag
prtdiag: not implemented on i86pc

Doug Smith wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
> 
>>
>> But for how long?
> 
> 
> Well, at least 3 years, pretty much non-stop.   :-)
> 
> FWIW, I took a lot of cpu temp readings before and after replacing the 
> fans.  With the silent fans the temps do run about 3 degrees warmer. 
> Still well under max specs.
> 
> Right now, (uptime > 22 days) prtdiag tells me:
> 
> Temperature sensors:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Location       Sensor     Temperature  Lo   LoWarn  HiWarn    Hi  Status
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> +em-board/cpu0 Die             62C    -10C    0C     85C     90C   okay
> +em-board/cpu0 Ambient         36C    -10C    0C     40C     60C   okay
> 
> 
> Bottom line here is that most hardware makers (even Sun) really skimp on 
> fans (among other things, keyboards for example) in order to hit some 
> magical price point.  Note that this magical price point was set by 
> marketing NOT by engineering.
> 
> Much higher quality fans are available that run quiet and still move 
> plenty of CFM.  But, they typically cost 10 bucks instead of 59 cents.
> 
> A workstation is part of a system and the most important peripheral in 
> that system is the Pitiful Human Unit (PHU).  In my view, the PHU needs 
> to be just as happy, if not more happy, than the CPU.  Certainly, the 
> CPU is easier to replace, goes obsolete more quickly, etc..  ;-)

Looks like reasonable temp measurements to me.

-- 
---------------------------------
The Golden Years Sux.

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 01:34:35 +0000, Tao Chen wrote:
> Doug Smith wrote:
>> Can you retain the original CPU heat sinks but replace the fans that are 
>> mounted on them?  (And, of course, the case fan and power supply fan.)
> 
> Yes, I can take CPU fan off the heatsink:
> http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33931178
> However, I don't know if I will find a better 70mm fan, 'better'
> means at least the same CFM, but with lower dBA.
> 
> The model number is 2806-04W-B89.
> It's made by NMB(MINEBEA) for sure, but I can't find this
> specific part# on their website.
> 
> http://www.eminebea.com/usa/eMinebea
> 
> Looking at product catalog online, the number 89 after 'B' should
> represent the performance.
> The closest one I can find is '2806KL-04W-B60', which has spec:
> AirFlow: 1.080 m3/min
> Noise: 39.0 dB
> 
> Since the Opteron chip obviously generate lots of heat,
> I cannot just replace the fan with a quiet one, because
> quieter usally means lower airflow.

Physics, I guess, they get quieter with lower RPM => lower airflow.
Once you have decent bearings, then most of the noise comes from
cavitation (?) around edges the prop blades, I think?

> The heatsink is the most important part IMO.
> Larger/copper/Better_designed heaksink should emanate
> heat much better than this one, with the same fan,
> which means the fan speed can be tuned lower.

Bigger heatsink should also allow bigger fan, which should also move
more air at a lower RPM, and probably have more silent blade shape.

> Water cooling will be even better.

Hmm, I have wondered about that and Googled around. I have also had fish
tanks with water pumps and recall that they do produce some low pitched
hum, though not as bad as air pumps for fish tanks. Haven't actually gone
to spend any money on this technology, but it looks cute.

Has anyone used water cooling for any Sun gear?
....or is that just "disco racer" customization cram?

> Same for the 120mm Fan, I can find a quieter one, but hardly
> with the same power.

If one has the space, I suppose one could use a bigger fan, lower RPMs and
a baffle to channel/collect the airflow and direct it against the CPU
heatsink. I have some machines that sort of do that but they are noisy,
probably because they don't use much bigger fans.

FWIW, I did some research on sound levels, and it is really, really HARD
to get things quiet (sound studio quiet), esp. in an urban environment.

-- 
Juhan Leemet
Logicognosis, Inc.

Tao Chen wrote:
> However, you cannot compare the heat in SB100 to
> W2100z, which has TWO Opteron CPUs.

I agree.  However, I have performed the same procedures on a dual CPU 
Athlon box with good results.


> I cannot just take out the fans and hope it survive.

Agreed.  I would want to see CPU temp data before and after any 
modifications.  I see in another posting that prtdiag does not exist in 
x86 Solaris -- bummer..  Is there any way to find your CPU temps?  Is 
there a BIOS embedded in firmware like on PC x86 boxes?  If so, maybe 
there is a mechanism in that firmware to examine CPU temps.
-- 
Doug

Doug Smith wrote:

> Agreed.  I would want to see CPU temp data before and after any 
> modifications.  I see in another posting that prtdiag does not exist in 
> x86 Solaris -- bummer..  Is there any way to find your CPU temps?  Is 
> there a BIOS embedded in firmware like on PC x86 boxes?  If so, maybe 
> there is a mechanism in that firmware to examine CPU temps.

This is temp provided by BIOS, before any modification
( room temp is around 84F ):

http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33528317

It only reads the second CPU's temp, don't ask me why.

What I have done so far is applying 'Arctic Silver 5' between
CPU and heatsink, as many people recommended, and add two
types of fans to the system:

http://www.pbase.com/taochen/image/33960161

The 120mm fan on top seems to help cooling down CPU
quite a bit, now it normally shows
Mem: 40, CPU: 51-54, Sys: 40.

Howerver, those two CPU fans are still very loud under workload.
I suppose it will be better when summer is over :-)

Tao

Tao Chen <opinion@taochen.com> writes:

> Frank Cusack wrote:
>  > I only wish someone had asked about a QUIET Opteron
>  > desktop.  I want a dual head silent workstation.
>  >
>  > /fc
> 
> I missed the event, otherwise I would have asked.
> 
> It uses probably the most powerful and loudest 120mm fan
> one can find on the market: Delta AFB1212SHE.
> 
> The fan goes to full speed when temp goes high inside the box.
> 
> Two CPU fans on side of heatsinks are also very loud.
> 
> IMHO, the layout of those fans seems to be very inefficient:

It doesn't matter how much noise comes out of the workstation, only
how much enters your ears. So ... instead of messing with the
hardware, why not try the Bose noise-cancelling headphones? Fan noise
should be one of the absolute best cases for this technology.

Chris
-- 
Chris Morgan
   "Post posting of policy changes by the boss will result in 
    real rule revisions that are irreversible"

		- anonymous correspondent

Chris Morgan wrote:

> It doesn't matter how much noise comes out of the workstation, only
> how much enters your ears. So ... instead of messing with the
> hardware, why not try the Bose noise-cancelling headphones? Fan noise
> should be one of the absolute best cases for this technology.
> 
> Chris


Thanks for the advice.
I did try Etymotics ER-4S, which blocks the noise really well ;)
However,
1. I don't listen to music when I work.
2. It's not comfortable wearing headphone for too long.
3. Good noise-cacncelling headphones list ER-4S
    block too much noise, which is not necessarily
    a good thing (miss phone ring, door bell, can't hear people
    calling your name at home/work etc. ).

Tao