f



If you used to use Windows or now used Windows less because of FreeBSD why?

For a Graduation Project, I am comparing Open-Source software to 
Propetarity Software.

So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
FreeBSD more now?

Yes, I know I asked a question like this before, but forgot to ask this 
one. ;).
0
Adam
10/11/2005 5:00:24 AM
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I continue to use windows on the desktop because of certain apps and games 
that only run on windows. Making the switch to another platorm is not a 
priority. I am quite good with windows security and other platforms offer no 
functionality that windows lacks, in my instance.

I recently began utilizing freebsd for some of my services, along with my 
windows server. I use mysql and postfix on freebsd.

I have lately been experimenting with linux, but the lack of sata support is 
inhibiting progress. I am patiently awaiting the next release of debian, my 
favorite distro so far. As a libertarian, I am quite fond of open-source 
ideals.



A few points on linux and freebsd:

The freebsd packages collection, I feel, is lacking. I really think some 
improvements need to be addressed to accomodate users that prefer binary 
implementation. For example, smb client support is broken in the binary 
implementations of xfce4 and gnome2. Freebsd-update is a huge leap forward, 
as far as updates are concerned.

The freebsd installer is far superior to any other I have ever used. I can 
install freebsd and apply binary security updates in less than ten minutes 
on a p2-300. Debian installation is a close second for ease of use and speed 
at twenty minutes.

Creating a firewall with freebsd is so super-easy with ipfw2. I have yet to 
configure a linux firewall, but browsing over the documentation of iptables 
is disheartening. It looks quite complex.



I will continue to enjoy the use of all three platforms in some capacity, 
but it is also becoming less likely that I will ever purchase software from 
microsoft again. 


0
Dom
10/11/2005 6:45:46 AM
Adam McCarthy wrote:
> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
> FreeBSD more now?

Stability:
don't work?  format/reinstall. (no thanks)
last time i had a kernel panic it was due to bad RAM.

Configurability:
100+ gewies for UN*X or none if you like.
1 for Windows (unless you like a very hacked version of blackbox)

Ease of use:
-don't know what i'd do w/o sshd
-tab auto-complete in BASH and tcsh.  doesn't get much better than that
-virtual desktops and "workspaces"
-search a tree of txt files for various strings and format into a 
readable table with one simple command.  people in the office (windows 
users) run to me to find "things" burried in 5 years of directories.

Speed/Efficiency:
-5 copies of transcode, 2 copies of mencoder, and 3 copies of avidemux 
along with Mozilla and Gaim running and my mp3s in Xmms still don't skip.

Applications:
-mplayer/encoder
-avidemux
-transcode
-gimp/cinepaint
-audacity (i know..  there's a winders version too)

-- 
- - james <at> hal-pc.org - -

"Borders, Language, Culture."
                -Michael Savage
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
0
james
10/11/2005 3:42:24 PM
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 01:00:24 -0400
Adam McCarthy <anonymous@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:

> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
> FreeBSD more now?

	Whenever I have to do battle with Windows I find myself swearing
and trying meaningless changes until it does what I want (or I give up
in total disgust). When I use FreeBSD (or any member of the unix family)
I find myself thinking and taking logical steps that achieve the results
I expected them to.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/
0
Steve
10/11/2005 4:30:10 PM
"james wrote:

>Ease of use:
>-don't know what i'd do w/o sshd
>-tab auto-complete in BASH and tcsh.  doesn't get much better than that
>-virtual desktops and "workspaces"
>-search a tree of txt files for various strings and format into a 
>readable table with one simple command.  people in the office (windows 
>users) run to me to find "things" burried in 5 years of directories.

Do you know of toolkits like UWin[1], Cygwin[2] or MKS[3]? Windows
without one of those is like having no arms, legs and eyes, but
thankfully they exist.

mkb.

[1] http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/
[2] http://www.cygwin.com/
[3] http://www.mks.com/

0
Matthias
10/11/2005 4:53:51 PM
> Windows without one of those is like having no arms, legs and eyes

If you are going to run Unix tools on a Unix shell... why bother to do
it on Windows?

At that point you are living in denial.

-#2pencil-

0
2pencil
10/11/2005 5:50:31 PM
Begin  <1129053031.126286.295390@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
On 2005-10-11, #2pencil <number2pencil@gmail.com> wrote:
[attribution missing]
>> Windows without one of those is like having no arms, legs and eyes

So after, what is it, 15 odd years, it finally is going to get arms,
legs, and eyes. Or at least that is what the vendor now promises.


> If you are going to run Unix tools on a Unix shell... why bother to do
> it on Windows?
>
> At that point you are living in denial.

Or maybe your boss is. Some companies have policies on this, you know.


-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
  *I* haven't had to work under such and I'm glad for it, even if it did
  mean people had to help themselves more *and* it increased my workload.
0
jpd
10/11/2005 6:53:20 PM
> Or maybe your boss is. Some companies have policies on this, you know.

In the event that the company should have a policy to get work done,
then they shouldn't throw tools ontop of a useless OS.

I wouldn't run nitrous-oxide through the station-wagon to get to the
grocery store quicker!

-#2pencil-

0
2pencil
10/11/2005 7:17:34 PM
On 2005-10-11, Adam McCarthy <anonymous@privacy.net.invalid> wrote:
> For a Graduation Project, I am comparing Open-Source software to 
> Propetarity Software.
>
> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
> FreeBSD more now?
>
> Yes, I know I asked a question like this before, but forgot to ask this 
> one. ;).

being part of the community
access to source code
apps separated from the system
port system
no need for antivirus crawling your system
no need to ritual reformatting
no need to run 2 pc (client & server), it is canned in 1 box
flexibility of shell
grep, awk, sed, find

I kept updating FreeBSD for years on this box (700MHz), and I still 
can work without speed problem, any Windows upgrade used to force me 
to upgrade the hardware, too. Mind, I run GNOME, a GUI considered as 
heavy by many.

There is one thing that keeps me occationally rebooting to Windows. 
Adobe Photoshop.

-- 
 Piotr Smyrak, piotr.smyrak.eko.org.pl

0
Piotr
10/11/2005 9:20:35 PM
Piotr Smyrak wrote:
> There is one thing that keeps me occationally rebooting to Windows. 
> Adobe Photoshop.

isn't Photoshop reported to work in WINE?  maybe only in Linux...
worth a shot if you've not tried it.

-- 
- - james <at> hal-pc.org - -

A fool must now and then be right by chance.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
0
james
10/11/2005 9:24:43 PM
On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 02:00:24 -0400, Adam McCarthy wrote:

> For a Graduation Project, I am comparing Open-Source software to 
> Propetarity Software.
> 
> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
> FreeBSD more now?
> 
> Yes, I know I asked a question like this before, but forgot to ask this 
> one. ;).

For browsing the web, reading news groups, listening to music, burning 
CD's etc I love FreeBSD. My Desktop computer runs 100% FreeBSD and it is
by far my favorite operating system. As mentioned before the installer is
excellent and time to get a working system is incredibly short, I like the
fact FreeBSD develops the world and kernel parts of the OS together as
well as cvsup/ports (ports being my all time favorite BSD feature). 

I have a laptop running Windows XP right now duel booted with gentoo
mainly because WPA support for my wireless card using NDIS isn't quite
working yet in FreeBSD but fingers crossed when 6.x gets to release stage
it will. I find the power management frustrating on *nix at the moment and
that's the main reason I haven't switch from over from all M$ OS's. (on a
laptop I can't do without good power management). 

-- 
Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, 
and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity.
Karl Marx

0
Will
10/12/2005 3:22:18 AM
#2pencil wrote:
> I wouldn't run nitrous-oxide through the station-wagon to get to the
> grocery store quicker!

why not!?
some rednecks here in Magnolia[1] run propane in their diesel trucks...
ample supply of it ya know.  all you gotta do is tap into the 
trailer's[2] tank.
maybe they like the cows to get exercise when tossing hay out the back ;)

[1] po-dunk town north of Houston, Tx
[2] trailer home

-- 
- - james <at> hal-pc.org - -

(Y2K) "How could this be a problem in a country
where we have Intel and Microsoft?" -Al Gore
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
0
james
10/12/2005 3:39:46 AM
On 2005-10-11, "james <at> hal-pc.org" <"james <at> hal-pc.org"> wrote:
> Piotr Smyrak wrote:
>> There is one thing that keeps me occationally rebooting to Windows. 
>> Adobe Photoshop.
>
> isn't Photoshop reported to work in WINE?  maybe only in Linux...
> worth a shot if you've not tried it.
>

Last time I checked most of keyboard shortcuts just plain did 
not work. Photoshop without Ctrl+Space is a nightmare. Just 
imagine working in vi* or emacs without them...

-- 
 Piotr Smyrak, piotr.smyrak.eko.org.pl

0
Piotr
10/12/2005 9:08:05 AM
Adam McCarthy
> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you
> use FreeBSD more now?

> Yes, I know I asked a question like this before, but forgot to ask this
> one. ;).

I answered your other post, but was thinking last night you should have
asked about Windoze too because I had to deal with it. Well, I got my
wish.

I had to install Win2k on a 6.4GB drive and experienced the unfortunate
event of formatting it with NTFS, which took almost 13 minutes on a
PIII 800MHz ATA100. On the same machine using FBSD4.11, I created a new
UFS on a 160GB drive in about 40 seconds. I'm just glad I didn't have
to put WindoZe on the 160GB HDD.

Windoze lack of integrated access and permission controls is unsuited
for today's networks. If Gates wouldn't have been so ambitious about
making his OS ubiquitous, Windows would have died by now.

ActiveX was a great idea too! It's nice when remote users, who you
don't even know, can adjust your system settings, modify your registry,
install software, and read your files.

I use to professionally develop software for Windoze; talk about
bloatware! The API, MFC, and other wrappers have way too much
re-inventing and stupid hooks.

BTW, I have not used Windoze for almost 3 years. I was sick of all the
viruses, the constant reboots for things as simple as changing the IP
address, lack of standards, among many other problems. 

- pachl

0
pachl
10/12/2005 9:23:52 AM
> isn't Photoshop reported to work in WINE?

http://bochs.sourceforge.net/

-#2pencil-

0
2pencil
10/12/2005 11:48:54 AM
#2pencil wrote:
>>isn't Photoshop reported to work in WINE?
> 
> http://bochs.sourceforge.net/

qemu is *much* better IMO, but both are quite slow, especially for 
running such a beast as Photoshop.

-- 
- - james <at> hal-pc.org - -

SCO believes they own Journaling File System technology.
That's as rediculous as Al Gore thinking he created the internet!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
0
james
10/12/2005 3:00:45 PM
pachl wrote:
> BTW, I have not used Windoze for almost 3 years. I was sick of all the
> viruses, the constant reboots for things as simple as changing the IP
> address, lack of standards, among many other problems. 

required reboot after changing the ip or to/from DHCP doesn't require a 
reboot now with XP or 2k, however now the ethernet card will 
mysteriously disable itself for no particular reason (i get at least 1-2 
calls a week about this).

btw. Longhorn was renamed to "Vista"
how appropriate that a *billion* dollar company can't put together a 
"think tank" to figure out the various insults that can be made of the 
name before deciding on it...
"Virus Infections, Spyware, Trojans, and Adware" -Infoworld
how appropriate.
;)

-- 
- - james <at> hal-pc.org - -

Polish-Dutch-Scottish-Irish-Cherokee-German-Coonass-American and proud 
of it!
  When will it end?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
0
james
10/12/2005 3:20:58 PM
pachl wrote:
>> BTW, I have not used Windoze for almost 3 years. I was sick of all
>> the viruses, the constant reboots for things as simple as changing
>> the IP address, lack of standards, among many other problems.

james <at> hal-pc.org
> required reboot after changing the ip or to/from DHCP doesn't require
> a reboot now with XP or 2k, however now the ethernet card will
> mysteriously disable itself for no particular reason (i get at least 1-2
> calls a week about this).

I'm not sure why Windoze does what it does sometimes, but I will tell
you this; my girlfriend has XP SP2 on her laptop and I had to reboot it
the other day just to change the IP address. I can't remember if I
changed it from static IP to dynamic or visa versa, but it popped up
the famous dialog box stating I must reboot for the changes to take
effect. Other times, it won't ask. ???

All I know is that my girlfriend bitches about her computer all the
time. It takes about 4 minutes to boot. Login and opening a browser
takes about another 3 minutes. Now she has this crapware that keeps
poping up saying that she must pay for this sexually related product in
order to remove the popups from her computer. This crap actually
installed its self and is listed in the installed programs. She called
the company and is working on removing this crap; what a waste of time.

I used to help her keep her computer clean, but it took way too much
time and effort. She wishes she didn't have to run XP, but needs to be
compatible with her office. That's just too bad.

One more story. I used to work at Sandia National Laboratories and they
used a Windows 2000 network. One time a virus spead throughout the
Sandia network and completely shut it down for about 8 hours. I
remember my computer all of a sudden slowing down and locking up. About
30 seconds later, the panicing system administrator for our building
was frantically running down the halls knocking on doors and telling
everyone to shutdown their computers. Everyone in my office area went
home, including myself, because we couldn't work without being
connected. Imagine how much that cost the company, or should I say the
tax payers. And M$ says it cheaper to run thier systems vs open source.
I guess they don't include down-time in their calculations.

- pachl

0
pachl
10/12/2005 11:59:24 PM
On 2005-10-11, #2pencil scribbled these
curious markings:
> In the event that the company should have a policy to get work done,
> then they shouldn't throw tools ontop of a useless OS.

When you're the boss, you can make that decision.

When you're the lowly peon, you don't get to make that decision.

You don't happen to have a job, do you?

Best Regards,
Christopher Nehren
-- 
I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated". -- Ken Thompson
If you ask questions of idiots, you get "Joel on Software".
Unix is user friendly. However, it isn't idiot friendly.
0
Christopher
10/13/2005 12:06:44 AM
In article <3r290vFh6b67U2@news.dfncis.de>,
Matthias Buelow  <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
>"james wrote:
>
>>Ease of use:
>>-don't know what i'd do w/o sshd
>>-tab auto-complete in BASH and tcsh.  doesn't get much better than that
>>-virtual desktops and "workspaces"
>>-search a tree of txt files for various strings and format into a 
>>readable table with one simple command.  people in the office (windows 
>>users) run to me to find "things" burried in 5 years of directories.
>
>Do you know of toolkits like UWin[1], Cygwin[2] or MKS[3]? Windows
>without one of those is like having no arms, legs and eyes, but
>thankfully they exist.
>
>mkb.

>[1] http://www.research.att.com/sw/tools/uwin/
>[2] http://www.cygwin.com/
>[3] http://www.mks.com/

Actually the best thing I've found is SFU - Service For Unix -
absolutely free from Microsoft.

Those make the things I have to do on Windows much easier as it has
all the standard Unix tools - including a GOOD ksh - which is more
than can be said about some of the other version [there was quite
a story of David Korn telling the MS people that there version
was not really compatible and they argued it was, until someone
pointed out the complainer was the author].

It's not small - it's a 228MB file - but it's the best set of Unix
tools >I've< seen for XP.  And I've tried the MKS and Cygwin
before.

Bill
com


-- 
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
0
bv
10/13/2005 12:15:01 AM
On 2005-10-11, Piotr Smyrak scribbled these
curious markings:
> being part of the community

This is changing a lot recently. Have you heard of
blogs.msdn.com, or perhaps Channel 9?

> no need for antivirus crawling your system

I've had Windows machines since before 95 and I've never needed
an antivirus. You don't need one if you're actually careful and
browse the Internet securely.

> no need to ritual reformatting

Ditto, unless I broke it by doing something stupid and entirely
my fault.

> no need to run 2 pc (client & server), it is canned in 1 box

Anyone with any sense or education in network deployment knows
that you shouldn't combine clients and servers into one machine,
if for no other reason than the performance of both
applications.

> grep, awk, sed, find

Perl can do all of those and more, and works quite well on
Windows. ActiveState even goes so far as to spoil Windows users
with Komodo, a quite nice Windows Perl IDE.

They have Python, too, if Perl's not your thing.

Best Regards,
Christopher Nehren
-- 
I abhor a system designed for the "user", if that word is a coded
pejorative meaning "stupid and unsophisticated". -- Ken Thompson
If you ask questions of idiots, you get "Joel on Software".
Unix is user friendly. However, it isn't idiot friendly.
0
Christopher
10/13/2005 12:50:14 AM
"james <at> hal-pc.org" wrote:
> pachl wrote:
> 
>> BTW, I have not used Windoze for almost 3 years. I was sick of all the
>> viruses, the constant reboots for things as simple as changing the IP
>> address, lack of standards, among many other problems. 
> 
> 
> required reboot after changing the ip or to/from DHCP doesn't require a 
> reboot now with XP or 2k, however now the ethernet card will 
> mysteriously disable itself for no particular reason (i get at least 1-2 
> calls a week about this).
> 
> btw. Longhorn was renamed to "Vista"
> how appropriate that a *billion* dollar company can't put together a 
> "think tank" to figure out the various insults that can be made of the 
> name before deciding on it...
> "Virus Infections, Spyware, Trojans, and Adware" -Infoworld
> how appropriate.
> ;)
> 
James, thank you so much, that just made my day. I now have a nice 
little joke to use for when I am bored. To be honest, I never even 
noticed Vista was like that. It's usually me who notices things like that.
0
Adam
10/13/2005 3:31:52 AM
Begin  <Io9uzK.uKz@wjv.com>
On 2005-10-13, Bill Vermillion <bv@wjv.com> wrote:
[snip: unix toolsets for that big embarasment]
> Actually the best thing I've found is SFU - Service For Unix -
> absolutely free from Microsoft.
>
> Those make the things I have to do on Windows much easier as it has
> all the standard Unix tools - including a GOOD ksh -

Amazing. But of course only after they'd shipped a broken version for
the longest time, until somebody big points it out to them in public...


> which is more
> than can be said about some of the other version [there was quite
> a story of David Korn telling the MS people that there version
> was not really compatible and they argued it was, until someone
> pointed out the complainer was the author].

That is a rather nice story. I suggest interested readers google for it.
It is another micros~1 classic of brazenly running right into public
embarasment. If only they'd check their facts in a while, instead of
trying to claim the truth into being whatever they say all the time.
Then again, ``playing nice'' is not in a bully's dictionary.


> It's not small - it's a 228MB file - but it's the best set of Unix
> tools >I've< seen for XP.  And I've tried the MKS and Cygwin
> before.

Why the size? Did they link everything statically or something?
What _is_ in there that justifies the bulk?


-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
  Ever seen the third-parties' results of making windows smaller?
0
jpd
10/13/2005 5:22:03 AM
On 2005-10-13, Christopher Nehren <apeiron+usenet@coitusmentis.info> wrote:
> On 2005-10-11, Piotr Smyrak scribbled these
> curious markings:
>> being part of the community
>
> This is changing a lot recently. Have you heard of
> blogs.msdn.com, or perhaps Channel 9?

No, I don't, but I would not say this is the same thing anyway.

>> no need for antivirus crawling your system
>
> I've had Windows machines since before 95 and I've never needed
> an antivirus. You don't need one if you're actually careful and
> browse the Internet securely.

Well, it depends what you got to do in your job. 

>> no need to run 2 pc (client & server), it is canned in 1 box
>
> Anyone with any sense or education in network deployment knows
> that you shouldn't combine clients and servers into one machine,
> if for no other reason than the performance of both
> applications.

Man, I am not talking about production environment. When still in 
Windows, I had a box at home, and was sshing to a server to do 
development and other stuff. But it was a nuisance, I love putty, 
but still, the connection was slow etc. Now I have apache, *SQL 
underneath the GNOME desktop, and one machine serves all my needs.
And I got production servers out there doing only the real job. 
That's a scenario I was refering to.

>> grep, awk, sed, find
>
> Perl can do all of those and more, and works quite well on
> Windows. ActiveState even goes so far as to spoil Windows users
> with Komodo, a quite nice Windows Perl IDE.
>
> They have Python, too, if Perl's not your thing.

Actually most of the work I was doing then was Perl stuff, and 
honestly. ActiveState did a great job, but still I had this feeling 
I wanna switch after watching a script that was regenerating my big 
map project (tens of thousand files for each of a couple of languages), 
doing it all in about 2 minutes in FreeBSD 2.2.8, and the same script
boring me down on WIndows box doing the same job in 20 minutes or so.
So no thank you, I know I am happy with my decision.

-- 
 Piotr Smyrak, piotr.smyrak.eko.org.pl
0
Piotr
10/13/2005 8:07:20 AM
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:50:14 GMT
Christopher Nehren <apeiron+usenet@coitusmentis.info> wrote:

> On 2005-10-11, Piotr Smyrak scribbled these

> > no need to run 2 pc (client & server), it is canned in 1 box
> 
> Anyone with any sense or education in network deployment knows
> that you shouldn't combine clients and servers into one machine,
> if for no other reason than the performance of both
> applications.

	It's nice not to need several boxes for a development environment.
With FreeBSD you can even use jails to hold virtual database, backend and
frontend server environments as well as running clients and development tools
all on one box. You can even test failover mechanisms that way :)

	Usually you don't care in a development environment if the test
harness runs a bit slow while compiling.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/
0
Steve
10/13/2005 11:32:20 AM
> When you're the boss, you can make that decision.
That's why _my_ webserver runs linux & _my_ e-mail server runs FreeBSD.

> When you're the lowly peon, you don't get to make that decision.
Granted...

> You don't happen to have a job, do you?
Not only do I have a job, but I run my own web hosting business.

-#2pencil-

0
2pencil
10/13/2005 11:52:52 AM
In article <3r697rFhmdfaU1@individual.net>,
jpd  <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
>Begin  <Io9uzK.uKz@wjv.com>
>On 2005-10-13, Bill Vermillion <bv@wjv.com> wrote:
>[snip: unix toolsets for that big embarasment]
>> Actually the best thing I've found is SFU - Service For Unix -
>> absolutely free from Microsoft.

>> Those make the things I have to do on Windows much easier as it has
>> all the standard Unix tools - including a GOOD ksh -

>Amazing. But of course only after they'd shipped a broken version for
>the longest time, until somebody big points it out to them in public...

>> which is more
>> than can be said about some of the other version [there was quite
>> a story of David Korn telling the MS people that there version
>> was not really compatible and they argued it was, until someone
>> pointed out the complainer was the author].

>That is a rather nice story. I suggest interested readers google for it.
>It is another micros~1 classic of brazenly running right into public
>embarasment. If only they'd check their facts in a while, instead of
>trying to claim the truth into being whatever they say all the time.
>Then again, ``playing nice'' is not in a bully's dictionary.

>> It's not small - it's a 228MB file - but it's the best set of Unix
>> tools >I've< seen for XP.  And I've tried the MKS and Cygwin
>> before.

>Why the size? Did they link everything statically or something?
>What _is_ in there that justifies the bulk?

Well I'm reinstalling it right now - as I had changed HDs and not
reinstalled.   Besided being 228MB - that's a zipped file size.

I don't know how they linked things - but there is a lot there.

It shows 12312 files inzipped and I saw such things as terminfo.src
go whizzing by.

But as an example here dir >file of just 'Baseutils'

 Volume in drive C has no label.
 Volume Serial Number is 706C-999E

 Directory of C:\temp\BaseUtils\bin

10/13/2005  02:07 PM    <DIR>          .
10/13/2005  02:07 PM    <DIR>          ..
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            88,064 addr
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 alias
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 at
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 atq
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 atrm
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           242,176 awk
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            80,896 banner
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,584 basename
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 batch
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           131,584 bc
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 bg
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           101,376 bp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            82,944 cal
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           100,352 calendar
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                14 captoinfo
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            74,752 cat
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            31,744 cat32
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            31,744 cat32.exe
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,560 cd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,728 chgpath
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            80,384 chgrp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            80,896 chmod
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            80,384 chown
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,680 chsh
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,120 cksum
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            74,240 clear
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,680 cmp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,192 col
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,704 column
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            68,608 comm
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 command
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            86,016 cp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           141,824 cpio
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           137,728 crontab
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                16 csh
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           117,760 csplit
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            82,432 ctags
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,216 cut
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            93,184 date
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            89,600 dc
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            79,360 dd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,704 df
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           167,936 diff
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            86,016 diff3
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           778,752 dig
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           167,936 dircmp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,560 dirname
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           725,504 dnsquery
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            78,336 du
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,584 echo
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           162,816 ed
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           120,832 egrep
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,632 env
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 ex
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            70,656 expand
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           111,104 expr
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            64,512 false
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 fc
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 fg
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           120,832 fgrep
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            99,328 file
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            52,736 fileinfo
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            52,736 fileinfo.exe
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           115,712 find
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           100,864 finger
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            78,336 flip
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            84,992 fmt
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,216 fold
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           328,704 ftp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            75,776 gencat
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            75,776 getconf
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,048 getopt
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 getopts
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           120,832 grep
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,192 head
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            89,088 hexdump
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           754,176 host
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,584 hostname
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            81,408 iconv
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            70,144 id
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           201,216 infocmp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                14 infotocap
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,120 ipcrm
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            96,768 ipcs
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           145,408 ispell
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 jobs
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,728 join
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,704 kill
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           307,712 ksh
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            87,552 last
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           240,640 less
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,560 lessecho
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,680 lesskey
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,584 line
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,072 ln
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            84,480 locale
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           177,152 localedef
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            88,064 logger
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           107,008 login
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            70,656 loginenv
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,048 logname
11/08/2003  02:45 PM             8,609 lp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           107,008 ls
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            91,648 m4
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                18 mail
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           171,520 mailx
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            70,144 man
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,168 mkdir
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,168 mkfifo
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           240,640 more
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            94,208 mpack
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            49,664 mt
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           110,080 munpack
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            77,824 mv
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            65,024 mvwtmpx
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,560 newgrp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,072 nice
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 nl
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,048 nohup
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           791,040 nslookup
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           731,136 nsupdate
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,728 ntpath2posix
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 nvi
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            89,088 od
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,192 passwd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            71,680 paste
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           151,552 patch
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,632 pathchk
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           217,088 pax
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            65,024 pdomain
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,192 pg
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            92,672 ping
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,728 posixpath2nt
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           108,032 pr
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            73,216 printf
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           123,392 ps
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            84,992 pstat
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            39,424 psxoffset
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,048 pwd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            90,112 rcp
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           204,288 rdist
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           129,536 rdistd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                12 read
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            72,704 regpwd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            68,096 renice
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                16 reset
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            86,528 rlogin
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            84,480 rm
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            67,072 rmdir
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                50 rpcinfo
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            80,896 rsh
11/08/2003  02:45 PM             1,365 rstartd
11/08/2003  02:45 PM             2,583 runwin32
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            83,456 script
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            89,088 sdiff
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           136,704 sed
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            51,200 service
11/08/2003  02:45 PM                14 sh
11/08/2003  02:45 PM               960 showmount
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           265,728 size
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            66,560 sleep
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           110,080 sort
11/08/2003  02:45 PM             3,136 spell
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            70,656 split
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            99,328 ssimda
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,120 strerror
11/08/2003  02:45 PM           266,240 strings
11/08/2003  02:45 PM            69,632 strsignal
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            93,696 stty
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            98,304 su
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            69,120 sum
11/08/2003  02:46 PM                46 syslogd
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            80,384 tail
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           148,992 talk
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           217,088 tar
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           421,888 tcsh
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            66,560 tee
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           136,704 telnet
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            71,168 test
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            86,016 tftp
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           200,704 tic
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            67,072 time
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           177,664 tip
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           190,976 toe
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            79,872 touch
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            98,816 tput
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            77,824 tr
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            64,512 true
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            91,136 truss
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           179,200 tset
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           114,176 tsort
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            66,560 tty
11/08/2003  02:46 PM             6,523 tzselect
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            70,656 umask
11/08/2003  02:46 PM                12 unalias
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            68,608 uname
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            71,168 unexpand
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            73,728 unifdef
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            70,144 uniq
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            66,048 unixpath2win
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            70,656 unvis
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            82,944 uudecode
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            70,656 uuencode
11/08/2003  02:46 PM           494,080 vi
11/08/2003  02:46 PM                12 view
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            72,192 vis
11/08/2003  02:46 PM                12 wait
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            67,584 wc
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            83,456 who
11/08/2003  02:46 PM               593 whoami
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            66,048 winpath2unix
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            32,768 wvisible
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            73,728 xargs
11/08/2003  02:46 PM               613 yearistype
10/13/2005  02:07 PM                 0 zz
11/08/2003  02:46 PM            71,168 [
             216 File(s)     22,261,910 bytes
               2 Dir(s)  79,496,757,248 bytes free

Abd tgere are man more sub directories.  Another director is
'common' with such things as chown, date, ksh, ps and on and on.

There is an etc directory and under it is the typical rc2.d with
startups for sendmail, cron, syslog, and rpc.

The opt directory cotains gcc 3.3

/usr contains X11R5 and X11R6 directories.

Perl is 5.5.6.

It has nfs clients and servers.

A lot of stuff there. But having the standard Unix utilites there
make certain things easier - at least for me - as often I'd use
samba to work on things from the Unix side and then push them back.

Since it's free the only thing you have to lose is disk space
and get more clutter :-)

I liked being able to list a directory and have them appear in the
old Unix format with cases being separate, which MS still doesn't
always do correctly.

Bill


-- 
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
0
bv
10/13/2005 6:25:02 PM
Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:50:14 GMT
> Christopher Nehren <apeiron+usenet@coitusmentis.info> wrote:
> 
> 
>>On 2005-10-11, Piotr Smyrak scribbled these
> 
> 
>>>no need to run 2 pc (client & server), it is canned in 1 box
>>
>>Anyone with any sense or education in network deployment knows
>>that you shouldn't combine clients and servers into one machine,
>>if for no other reason than the performance of both
>>applications.
> 
> 
> 	It's nice not to need several boxes for a development environment.
> With FreeBSD you can even use jails to hold virtual database, backend and
> frontend server environments as well as running clients and development tools
> all on one box. You can even test failover mechanisms that way :)
> 
> 	Usually you don't care in a development environment if the test
> harness runs a bit slow while compiling.
> 
Excatly. Like I said, I learned Visual Basic programming in VB class and 
was like, this is truely boring, nothing at all like programming in C, 
C++, Perl, Python, or something else worth while, but also on Linux. At 
least Linux, it takes a bit to learn, not click this, point here, have a 
beer, click here, have another beer.
0
Adam
10/13/2005 7:37:07 PM
Begin  <11ktdrph63e2127@corp.supernews.com>
On 2005-10-13, Adam McCarthy <redpenguin@atlanticbb.net.invalid> wrote:
[snip!]
> Excatly. Like I said, I learned Visual Basic programming in VB class and 
> was like, this is truely boring, nothing at all like programming in C, 
> C++, Perl, Python, or something else worth while, but also on Linux. At 
> least Linux, it takes a bit to learn, not click this, point here, have a 
> beer, click here, have another beer.

Tell it a manager (of the previously discussed type) and he'll be
delighted: Less learny, more clicky. This is called ``productivity''.


Have I ranted about the industry rags assigning ``productivity indexes''
*to machines* already? Now who does the work here, hm? Apparently it is
commonly accepted it isn't the person who gets paid for sitting in front
of a clicky box, and do what? Keep the chair warm?


-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
  the 69 eyes -- kick the chair.
0
jpd
10/13/2005 8:54:19 PM
pachl <clintpachl@gmail.com> wrote:

>I used to help her keep her computer clean, but it took way too much
>time and effort. She wishes she didn't have to run XP, but needs to be
>compatible with her office. That's just too bad.

I always wonder how people get their Windoze machine loaded with spyware
and viruses so badly; I've been using Windows since Win2k on several
machines over the years (the DOS-based WinXX were too shoddy to even
consider), although I don't use it much since I prefer an X11 desktop,
but I've never had any virus or other malware on it.  I don't use IE
(Mozilla instead) and I don't use Outlook etc., and I regularly update,
and after the machine has been set up, I rarely install anything,
especially not some crap I just found in some web-browser popup.  Maybe
simply teaching people not to click on everything (especially with IE),
and not to try out every stupid "funny screensaver" that they find on
the web would make a difference?  In a company, I would expect the whole
network to be behind a firewall, and e-mail getting virus-filtered, and
people forbidden to browse the web for leisure (downloading "funny
screensavers") or attaching their own (virus-infested) notebooks to the
network (it'd be easy to set up a quarantined network for that).

mkb.
0
Matthias
10/13/2005 10:45:02 PM
>>>>> "Bill" == Bill Vermillion <bv@wjv.com> writes:

    Bill> Actually the best thing I've found is SFU - Service For Unix
    Bill> - absolutely free from Microsoft.

As far as the server-side goes, SFU is the best there is, but it's
still pretty ugly.  The NFS server routinely blue-screened my Windows
2000 file servers, and the NIS server was crufty (at best).  I mean,
NIS support in the age of Kerberos!  Why didn't Microsoft just add in
the RFC 2307 stuff right from the get go and just let the rest of us
use nss_ldap plus pam_krb5, which already existed as of 2001 for just
about every Unix that supported PAM and NSS?  Just the UID, GID,
login shell, and home directory fields would be necessary; they
wouldn't even really need to implement the entire RFC.  I was so
frustrated with SFU that I didn't even bother downloading 3.5 when it
came out, and I am Mr. Interoperability Freak when it comes to these
sorts of things.  Ah well.

I'd be a lot happier if the Unix client support was a lot better, but
Samba just isn't there yet.  Even once they work out the bugs in
winbind, you still won't be able to map drives like you'd expect,
given that smbfs is supported on only a few platforms (if that - it
might be Linux-only) and doesn't tie in with winbind at all.  What an
ugly, ugly hack.

Sorry for the rant.  I'll stop now.  I should know better than post to
Usenet after being up late.  :-/

Best wishes,
Matthew

-- 
jsoffron: I'm generally pretty high on national defense...
Mr. Bad Example: Careful...it's a gateway policy. Before you know it,
 you'll be mainlining the hard stuff like trade agreements.
jsoffron: Too late...I've been freebasing Nafta all day... Sweet,
 sweet NAFTA.
    - As seen on Slashdot
0
Matthew
10/14/2005 5:41:51 AM
pachl wrote:
>>I used to help her keep her computer clean, but it took way too much
>>time and effort. She wishes she didn't have to run XP, but needs to
>>be compatible with her office. That's just too bad.

Matthias Buelow
> I always wonder how people get their Windoze machine loaded with
> spyware and viruses so badly;

Me too. I guess we have to understand that a large population does not
really understand computers and the consequences of thier actions while
using them. I think this is the root of many problems. It's people like
this and their unprotected and vulnerable machines that help propagate
viruses, worms, etc. throughout the Internet.

I try to educate my girlfriend on the subject, but she just doesn't
seem to care. All she wants to do is use her computer. Then there is my
sister. She bought a brand new PC about two years ago. It is a 1.2GHz
Celeron, 256MB, with XP and after about 1 year she kept complaining
that it was getting so slow and that she was going to buy a new one. I
actually hear this a lot; it's like people think the computer actaully
wears out and that's why it's slow.

0
pachl
10/14/2005 7:21:51 AM
Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
> but I've never had any virus or other malware on it.  I don't use IE
> (Mozilla instead) and I don't use Outlook etc., and I regularly update,
> and after the machine has been set up, I rarely install anything,
> especially not some crap I just found in some web-browser popup.  Maybe
> simply teaching people not to click on everything (especially with IE),

Personnally i am surprised of what you are saying. What's the advantage of
running Windows if you can't click on everything in sight? Fact is
if you are not security paranoid you catch viruses pretty fast on Windows.
And nobody runs Windows to be security paranoid. 

> and not to try out every stupid "funny screensaver" that they find on
> the web would make a difference?  In a company, I would expect the whole
> network to be behind a firewall, and e-mail getting virus-filtered, and
> people forbidden to browse the web for leisure (downloading "funny
> screensavers") or attaching their own (virus-infested) notebooks to the
> network (it'd be easy to set up a quarantined network for that).

Of course you will say that to your boss if he comes at work with his virus
infested notebook... Sincerely all these rants about not surfing at work and
company are completely out of question in the "real world".

> 
> mkb.
0
talon
10/14/2005 9:17:41 AM
Michel Talon <talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote:

>Personnally i am surprised of what you are saying. What's the advantage of
>running Windows if you can't click on everything in sight? Fact is

The advantage is running software on it which doesn't run elsewhere.
Other than that, I know of no reason.

>Of course you will say that to your boss if he comes at work with his virus
>infested notebook... Sincerely all these rants about not surfing at work and
>company are completely out of question in the "real world".

Well.. pachl was talking about Sandia Labs.. where, from what I
would think, such policies would be enforceable. Don't they do
nuclear weapons stuff and things like that?

mkb.
0
Matthias
10/14/2005 9:57:33 AM
Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
> 
> Well.. pachl was talking about Sandia Labs.. where, from what I
> would think, such policies would be enforceable. Don't they do
> nuclear weapons stuff and things like that?

Oh yes. I have been much surprised to see Windows used in such a sensible lab
as Sandia. In our lab which has absolutely nothing to hide, you have hard time
finding a Windows machine.  We have a vast majority of Linux boxes and the
rest is Macs. As far as i know it is basically the same in the other physics
labs of our university. Usually a single Windows box to fill the crap
Word documents coming from time to time, but now OpenOffice is sufficient to
do the job.

> 
> mkb.

-- 

Michel TALON

0
talon
10/14/2005 12:51:05 PM
> I always wonder how people get their Windoze machine loaded with spyware
> and viruses so badly

> I don't use IE (Mozilla instead) and I don't use Outlook etc., and I regularly update,
> and after the machine has been set up, I rarely install anything,
> especially not some crap I just found in some web-browser popup.

You just answered your own question.  I tried to explain to our
computer users, how sending an e-mail to everyone on the network is a
waste of bandwidth due to the animated gifs.  The responce I got was
"what is bandwidth?".

-#2pencil-

0
2pencil
10/14/2005 1:32:44 PM
>>>>> "pachl" == pachl  <clintpachl@gmail.com> writes:

    pachl> Me too. I guess we have to understand that a large
    pachl> population does not really understand computers and the
    pachl> consequences of thier actions while using them. I think
    pachl> this is the root of many problems. It's people like this
    pachl> and their unprotected and vulnerable machines that help
    pachl> propagate viruses, worms, etc. throughout the Internet.

I take a different view.  I do not expect end users to know anything
about how the computer works, much the same way I do not expect
drivers to know how modern internal combustion engines, drive trains,
and suspension systems work.  Instead, I do expect computers to be
designed in such a way as to facilitate their safe operation (which
they are not), and I do expect end users to receive limited training
on how to safely operate their computers (but you can only expect so
much).  If computer software were better designed and more carefully
implemented, many of the trivial attacks and vulnerabilities would be
avoided.

For example, in the default installation and with the default
settings, I should be able to use Internet Explorer or Firefox without
once worrying about my privacy, deceptive advertisements (i.e.,
pop-ups), or malicious software.  Instead, both browsers' default
settings allow such things to happen (defects notwithstanding).  They
are broken as designed.  At least with IE I can globally change the
default browser settings to something safer using Active Directory and
Group Policy Objects.

On re-read, I realize that my comments above are pretty incendiary
from a political point of view.  I'll let it stand, though, if only to
highlight the principle that software engineers are as culpable for
the lack of safety features in the systems they design, as the end
users are for operating these software systems unsafely.  Software
engineers can and should do more to protect their end users, much like
mechanical engineers have improved the design and construction of cars
to protect their occupants.  I agree: at some point, the person behind
the keyboard must learn to operate their computer safely, and there is
only so much a software engineer can do to protect the end user.  But
accidents happen, and I think software engineers could do more to
protect the people that use their software, given the current, sad
state of the art.

Rant mode off.  :)

Best wishes,
Matthew

-- 
jsoffron: I'm generally pretty high on national defense...
Mr. Bad Example: Careful...it's a gateway policy. Before you know it,
 you'll be mainlining the hard stuff like trade agreements.
jsoffron: Too late...I've been freebasing Nafta all day... Sweet,
 sweet NAFTA.
    - As seen on Slashdot
0
Matthew
10/14/2005 2:15:51 PM
On 2005-10-14, Michel Talon <talon@lpthe.jussieu.fr> wrote:
> Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
>> 
>> Well.. pachl was talking about Sandia Labs.. where, from what I
>> would think, such policies would be enforceable. Don't they do
>> nuclear weapons stuff and things like that?
>
> Oh yes. I have been much surprised to see Windows used in such a sensible lab
> as Sandia. In our lab which has absolutely nothing to hide, you have hard time
> finding a Windows machine.  We have a vast majority of Linux boxes and the
> rest is Macs. As far as i know it is basically the same in the other physics
> labs of our university. Usually a single Windows box to fill the crap
> Word documents coming from time to time, but now OpenOffice is sufficient to
> do the job.

You would be even more suprised finding Windows machines 
on USNavy nuclear rocket strike cruisers. I even remember 
reading an article that described how they lost control 
of the ship, when the thing just had hang up...

-- 
 Piotr Smyrak, piotr.smyrak.eko.org.pl

0
Piotr
10/14/2005 3:12:57 PM
Piotr Smyrak <piotr.smyrak@eko.org.pl.spam> wrote:

>You would be even more suprised finding Windows machines 
>on USNavy nuclear rocket strike cruisers. I even remember 
>reading an article that described how they lost control 
>of the ship, when the thing just had hang up...

Google for USS Yorktown ;)
I somehow wonder, however, how a simple division-by-zero error can turn
the entire computer system (including backups, etc.) nonfunctional.
Maybe the story's a hoax.

mkb.
0
Matthias
10/14/2005 3:23:32 PM
Begin  <3ra0rkFibhq0U1@news.dfncis.de>
On 2005-10-14, Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
> Google for USS Yorktown ;)
> I somehow wonder, however, how a simple division-by-zero error can turn
> the entire computer system (including backups, etc.) nonfunctional.
> Maybe the story's a hoax.

Sensible people (like those who use good systems) would think that.
However, even the very little actual *industrial* experience I have
makes me think it might not be. I'm european so I don't really care
if amiland battleships turn themselves into sitting ducks courtesy of
redmondware. Were it a european navy I'd write angry letters to heads
of state and so on. China appears to have caught on to this.


-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
  The people who need to read comp.risks the most, usualy don't.
0
jpd
10/14/2005 6:42:08 PM
Begin  <IoB9KD.137r@wjv.com>
On 2005-10-13, Bill Vermillion <bv@wjv.com> wrote:
> In article <3r697rFhmdfaU1@individual.net>,
> jpd  <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
[micros~1 sfu]
>>Why the size? Did they link everything statically or something?
>>What _is_ in there that justifies the bulk?
>
> Well I'm reinstalling it right now - as I had changed HDs and not
> reinstalled.   Besided being 228MB - that's a zipped file size.

The base+manpages distributions, gzipped weigh in at about 80MB (at
least 4.*). I think I'll opt for extra hardware if necessairy and do
away with all that s/w bloat. :-)

(Modulo requirements and policies and all that stuff, but that's a given.)


> 11/08/2003  02:45 PM           242,176 awk

Datapoint: The original awk, windows version, is about 140k, available
here:

  http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/awkbook/

A quick look --not an analysis-- through the file sizes indicates to
expect everything is roughly five times the size on my fbsd 5 box. If
they didn't link it statically then I don't know what they did. (And I
don't want to know, either.)


> Since it's free the only thing you have to lose is disk space
> and get more clutter :-)

Compared to the mess you're adding it to it probably won't be noticeable
much, true.

Thanks for sharing the listing. It doesn't answer much questions but
then again there probably weren't many to be had in the first place.


-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
0
jpd
10/14/2005 6:55:52 PM
>>>>> "Adam" == Adam McCarthy <anonymous@privacy.net.invalid> writes:

    Adam> For a Graduation Project, I am comparing Open-Source
    Adam> software to Propetarity Software.

I would be interested in the results of your comparison.  Are you
planning on publishing them in a refereed journal?  Would you be
willing to post a pre-print of these results to the web or somewhere
equally public?

Best wishes,
Matthew

-- 
jsoffron: I'm generally pretty high on national defense...
Mr. Bad Example: Careful...it's a gateway policy. Before you know it,
 you'll be mainlining the hard stuff like trade agreements.
jsoffron: Too late...I've been freebasing Nafta all day... Sweet,
 sweet NAFTA.
    - As seen on Slashdot
0
Matthew
10/14/2005 8:14:23 PM
In <11kmho1ob90bh2e@corp.supernews.com>, Adam McCarthy wrote:
> For a Graduation Project, I am comparing Open-Source software to 
> Propetarity Software.
>
> So if you used to use Windows or now use Windows less, why do you use 
> FreeBSD more now?
>
> Yes, I know I asked a question like this before, but forgot to ask this 
> one. ;).

  I have never owned Windows, and I never will.

C=64 -> DOS -> Linux -> Linux+FreeBSD
0
Steve
10/14/2005 8:21:53 PM
    pachl> Me too. I guess we have to understand that a large
    pachl> population does not really understand computers and the
    pachl> consequences of thier actions while using them. I think
    pachl> this is the root of many problems. It's people like this
    pachl> and their unprotected and vulnerable machines that help
    pachl> propagate viruses, worms, etc. throughout the Internet.

Matthew X. Economou
> I take a different view.  I do not expect end users to know anything
> about how the computer works, much the same way I do not expect
> drivers to know how modern internal combustion engines, drive trains,
> and suspension systems work.  Instead, I do expect computers to be
> designed in such a way as to facilitate their safe operation (which
> they are not), and I do expect end users to receive limited training
> on how to safely operate their computers (but you can only expect so
> much).  If computer software were better designed and more carefully
> implemented, many of the trivial attacks and vulnerabilities would be
> avoided.

I agree that many softwares are designed with vulnerabilities and many
times the software engineers are at fault, but that does not let the
users off the hook. Drivers must be educated on the rules of the road
and some basic maintenance, like add gas when the needle hits "E" and
change the oil every 3000 miles. Like wise, computer users must learn
some basic knowledge too.

As you said, you wouldn't expect drivers to understand how combustion
engines, transmissions, etc. work just like I wouldn't expect users to
understand the PCI bus, why Kirchhoff's rule says DRAM needs to be
refreshed, etc. However, they should understand what an executable
attachment is and the consequences of running it.

Unfortunately for most people, computers, the Internet, softwares, and
the protocols that tie it all together are much more complex than the
operation of a vehicle and consequently they are required to know more.
The automobile has been basically the same for over 100 years; you get
in, you turn it on somehow, you push one pedal to go and the other
pedal to stop. The computer world is much more complex and hands-on and
constantly evolving, therefore, the end user must possess greater
knowledge.

Just like at the turn of the industrial revolution with the invention
of electricity; the general population had a hard time grasping it. In
fact, many people were scared of this invisible force. Ironically, my
Mom and elderly neighbor are scared of the Internet. They don't
understand how it works so they stay away from it.

The the Internet, web enabled cell phones, the computer as we know it
today, etc are still in thier infancy. Until we have had a generation
or two to integrate these new technologies into our daily lives, like
we did with electricity, we will remain to have problems. When Thomas
Edison built the first electric grid in New York he used a DC system.
The superior AC system quickly surpassed the DC system as the standard.
I think we are at a simiar time in the technology revolution. We will
be faced with growing pains and FUD until we get it right. And, as long
as we have companies like M$ building insecure software, these problems
will be that much more promiment.

- pachl

0
pachl
10/15/2005 2:14:28 AM
On 2005-10-14, jpd <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
> Begin  <3ra0rkFibhq0U1@news.dfncis.de>
> On 2005-10-14, Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
>> Google for USS Yorktown ;)
>> I somehow wonder, however, how a simple division-by-zero error can turn
>> the entire computer system (including backups, etc.) nonfunctional.
>> Maybe the story's a hoax.
>
> Sensible people (like those who use good systems) would think that.
> However, even the very little actual *industrial* experience I have
> makes me think it might not be. I'm european so I don't really care
> if amiland battleships turn themselves into sitting ducks courtesy of
> redmondware. 

I would care anybody's ship it would be knowing it has nuclear missiles 
on board.

-- 
 Piotr Smyrak, piotr.smyrak.eko.org.pl

0
Piotr
10/15/2005 9:39:51 AM
Piotr Smyrak <piotr.smyrak@eko.org.pl.spam> wrote:

>I would care anybody's ship it would be knowing it has nuclear missiles 
>on board.

You mean, they could think of rocket-jumping themselves out of the
water if they're stuck? ;)

mkb.
0
Matthias
10/15/2005 12:52:25 PM
Begin  <3r86beFi9tghU1@news.dfncis.de>
On 2005-10-13, Matthias Buelow <mkb@incubus.de> wrote:
> pachl <clintpachl@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I used to help her keep her computer clean, but it took way too much
>>time and effort. She wishes she didn't have to run XP, but needs to be
>>compatible with her office. That's just too bad.

Much can be done with a little bit of strategy. Normally not running with
admin privileges, for one. Nobody ever does that.


> I always wonder how people get their Windoze machine loaded with spyware
> and viruses so badly; I've been using Windows since Win2k on several
> machines over the years (the DOS-based WinXX were too shoddy to even
> consider), although I don't use it much since I prefer an X11 desktop,
> but I've never had any virus or other malware on it.  I don't use IE
> (Mozilla instead) and I don't use Outlook etc.,

Recently heard about why somebody used outlook: ``I just want my mail.''


> and I regularly update,
> and after the machine has been set up, I rarely install anything,
> especially not some crap I just found in some web-browser popup.

But it's fun!!!1!

This seems to be important to people, for some reason.

Updating, by the way, definately is *not* fun, and it's dangerous too,
for everytime you install *something* a virus might pop up or whatever,
and this is installing *something*, right?

Clicking on popups probably isn't installing, right?


> Maybe simply teaching people not to click on everything (especially
> with IE), and not to try out every stupid "funny screensaver" that
> they find on the web would make a difference?

``Teaching not to click'' somehow often doesn't take hold of people.
I'd say start with teaching them to use the right tool for the job, and
that whatever may be the right tool, the standard internet thingummies
micros~1 won ``their internet war'' with *is not* and *will never be*
adequate for any job other than hosing your system.

BTW I'm still wondering why people glaze over so much whenever they get
near a computer. I mean, true, *we* know all the details, and we know
them so well we easily forget there are so many little details that other
people can instantly glaze over. But that doesn't justify the observed
behaviour that people glaze over even before you said anything at all.

I think this is another instance of ``learned helplessness''. They've
been told ``computing is easy'' (nevermind this is patently not true)
and so as soon as it looks like it might be hard they glaze over until
it sounds easy again.

``Not clicky do'' is not as easy as it sounds for you can't give clear
directions when to click and when not to click (like: if the icon is
red, it's bad, hmkay?[2]) and on top of that, all they ever *can* do is
click, so telling not to click is too cripling for their ``internet
experience'', or something.


The bottom line is probably that if you want to teach, because at least
theoretically people are teachable (when they're young, that is, older
people need to open themselves to it), you'll have to start at the
bottom. The absolute worst you can do is say you don't need to know
anything to use a computer. And this has been the mantra for quite a
while already.


> In a company, I would expect the whole
> network to be behind a firewall, and e-mail getting virus-filtered, and
> people forbidden to browse the web for leisure (downloading "funny
> screensavers") or attaching their own (virus-infested) notebooks to the
> network (it'd be easy to set up a quarantined network for that).

In a bog standard network, yes. In a sensible network, you'd start out
with not so much standardizing on s/w but on functions and protocols,
then build a recommended s/w suite on that. Sometimes you must allow
people to deviate for some task or other, but that's besides the point.
Sometimes, you can allow people to deviate as long as they do not fuck
up. I'd put budgetary penalties on hosing the network by unapproved
software. Hosing anything results in a fresh rollout of the recommended
s/w suite. There are larger shops where this happens every night
regardless of need, and all machines are locked down tight anyway. The
remaining usefulness of such a setup I'd think questionable, but then
I'm a unix user and admin.

Virus scanners should not be needed and aren't that swell an idea
anyway. I point to the recent ``enumerating badness considered
clueless'' paper[3]. What you can do is block all attachments except,
say, .pdf. For other reasons[4] I would not want to allow proprietary
*and especially not micros~1* formatted documents to cross the company
boundaries. The flipside is that you'll then have to provide another
means for transferring files[5], and that all windows machines need
their own virus scanners[6][7]. Laptops and such need that anyway, and
the un*x boxen do not.


I'd also offer unix user and other courses to get away from the ``less
learny, more clicky'' mindset[1]. But as pointed out above, while this
is the only viable approach unless we are willing to turn all computers
into toaster-like appliances[8], I don't expect much interest in those
courses with the status quo.


[1] catchy term, no?
[2] This sounds ridiculous, but it is the consequence of our teaching
    that all you need to be able to do to use a computer is move a mouse
    and move your finger less than a cm to click a button.
[3] http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/
    I think he might have shown better taste in talking about crackers
    and not hackers, but the ``default deny'' and ``don't enumerate
    badness'' are useful mantras.
[4] Information leakage, for one.
[5] ftp/ssl or sftp sounds good to me. Takes multimegabytes of crap
    out of the mailspool too.
[6] So what if that slows them down. Speed doesn't seem to be a honest
    argument for a windows user anyway.
[7] There are quite nifty remote management solutions for clusters of
    desktops with virus scanning s/w.
[8] This is not a potshot at NetBSD, quite the contrary. I want un*x on my
    toaster, not very expensive crap computers made to be less useful than
    a toaster. And I do apologize to the toaster for the comparison.

-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
0
jpd
10/15/2005 3:40:44 PM
Begin  <uslv4tca0.fsf@irtnog.org>
On 2005-10-14, Matthew X. Economou <xenophon+usenet@irtnog.org> wrote:
>>>>>> "pachl" == pachl  <clintpachl@gmail.com> writes:
> I take a different view.  I do not expect end users to know anything
> about how the computer works, much the same way I do not expect
> drivers to know how modern internal combustion engines, drive trains,
> and suspension systems work.

I strongly disagree here. Not knowing a thing leads to irrational
driving such as seen in the SUV trend. The effects of thinking that
bigger is safer (SUVs are classified as ``truck'' and hence have to meet
quite a lot less safety criteria) and not enough training to deal with
the same truck (high center of gravity this means unstable in difficult
conditions like wind and wet roads and a tendency to fall over on quick
maneuvring, add high inertia, which means that you can't get out of the
way quick enough when, for example, you're trying to get out of the way
of a bigger truck) and you have a coffin on wheels, driven by a luser.

The lusage here is not so much the desire to drive bigger machinery, but
the not learning how to deal with it. If you are a 16yo gal and you really
want to drive really big machinery, fine, go for it. But whatever your
sex and age, you *need* to know about the basic physics[1] of driving and
you *need* to know *and* practice how to use that knowledge.

Yes, I do think driving on the road could be improved quite a lot. I also
do think the lusage on the 'net should be improved quite a lot upon.


>  Instead, I do expect computers to be designed in such a way as to
> facilitate their safe operation (which they are not),

Which would make them all but useless. Besides, we've (well, apple,
micros~1, et al.) have been trying for quite a while now. You'd think
they'd've had more success by now.


> and I do expect end users to receive limited training on how to safely
> operate their computers (but you can only expect so much).

You can train people to write a nice letter, but somehow all their
spelling abilities go on vacation the moment they look at a computer.
I think something is very, very wrong here.


> If computer software were better designed and more carefully
> implemented, many of the trivial attacks and vulnerabilities would be
> avoided.

Well, yes. But it isn't. Why is the single biggest software company
practically the sole source of badness and why the fsck are they still
in business at all, nay, the biggest and baddest on the block?

This is a clear faillure of capitalism as advertised.


[snip!]
> I agree: at some point, the person behind the keyboard must learn to
> operate their computer safely, and there is only so much a software
> engineer can do to protect the end user.

Turn it around. It is *not* the software that is responsible. So far,
and I hope it stays that way, it's always *people* that have been called
upon to be responsible. Start with the operator. If s/he is responsible,
s/he has a clear incentive to demand better software, instead of silently
working around all the problems and believe software ``just is bad''.

This means we have to leave the ``the software knows how to do your job
for you'' mindset behind, as a failed experiment. I regret this not.


>  But accidents happen, and I think software engineers could do more
> to protect the people that use their software, given the current, sad
> state of the art.

True. But simply expect engineers to do that, where their bosses
(marketing) want something else instead, clearly has not produced the
desired results.


[1] Note I didn't say you needed a degree in physics. But you do need
    a basic, working, knowledge of the field you're working in.

-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
0
jpd
10/15/2005 4:03:14 PM
Begin  <1129342468.520827.41650@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
On 2005-10-15, pachl <clintpachl@gmail.com> wrote:
> As you said, you wouldn't expect drivers to understand how combustion
> engines, transmissions, etc. work just like I wouldn't expect users to
> understand the PCI bus, why Kirchhoff's rule says DRAM needs to be
> refreshed, etc. However, they should understand what an executable
> attachment is and the consequences of running it.

The general principle of a combustion engine, mass and gravity, bits and
the effects of digitalisation, what ``bandwidth'' is and how it affects
sending mail, that is pretty basic stuff that anybody wanting to drive a
car, use a computer should know about.

If you really don't know about transmissions, you tend to break them
much more often (resulting in bills) and you'll drive such that your
driving experience is shot to pieces. And you won't know what to do
about it, either. That sounds like hell to me. All it takes is a
baseline of knowledge. Setting it on `zero' does not work.


> The the Internet, web enabled cell phones, the computer as we know it
> today, etc are still in thier infancy. Until we have had a generation
> or two to integrate these new technologies into our daily lives, like
> we did with electricity, we will remain to have problems.

The irony here is that we *discourage* the gaining of knowledge so
that it will probably take longer than two generations to take full
advantage of it.

Have you ever noticed that electricity is now a basic part of what you
learn in highschool? Well maybe it wasn't for you, but for me it was.

Chemistry too. More details than you ever need to know about combustion.
And acid batteries. You can actually calculate in detail, *without* the
use of a computer, how much electricity you can get from a lead-acid
battery using only a couple of tables in the pocket reference[1] that we
were allowed to keep on exams as well.


[1] BINAS, for the Dutch readers.

-- 
  j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l .
0
jpd
10/15/2005 4:13:56 PM
jpd <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> writes:

> Sensible people (like those who use good systems) would think that.
> However, even the very little actual *industrial* experience I have
> makes me think it might not be. I'm european so I don't really care
> if amiland battleships turn themselves into sitting ducks courtesy of
> redmondware. Were it a european navy I'd write angry letters to heads
> of state and so on.

OK, so then write to the Royal Navy. They are just doing that. And
apparently have fired people who tried to convince them of their
sillyness.

'Andreas

-- 
Wherever I lay my .emacs, there's my $HOME.
0
Andreas
10/16/2005 1:07:05 PM
Reply:

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Hi, We use a third party application that parses weblogs and generates statistics. The application gives OutOfMemory exception when the weblogs are hugs. I am wondering if doing "editbin.exe /LARGEADDRESSAWARE java.exe" is going to help. I have tried all combinations of -Xms, -Xmx, NewSize, MaxNewSize I have 4GB of physical RAM and I have /3GB in boot.ini in Windows 2000 Advanced Server. Thanks, Anurag. On 24 Oct 2003 12:15:20 -0700, adoshi@tcg-software.com (Anurag Doshi) wrote or quoted : >We use a third party application that parses weblogs and genera...

Use VirtualBox to use old scanners on Windows Vista.
Wow, I've just succeeded to scan with my old Epson perfection scanner on Windos Vista. As far as I know, there are three major virtual machines available for Windows: VMWare, Virtual PC and VirtualBox. I first tried VMWare. It had a nice menu for usb, but even though Perfection 610 appeared on that menu, the guest OS didn't recognize it. Plus, VMWare is not a freeware and consumed too much disk spaces and installed a lot of unnecessary (for me) background services which are running always even though when you're not using VMWare. Then I tried Microsoft Virtuial PC 2007...

Comprehensive study Linux vs. Windows. Windows is faster and uses less memory.
Key quotes: o Transactions Per Minute were roughly equivalent for 2 - 150 user sessions. o Transactions Per Minute were up to 16% higher for MS Windows for 150 - 250 users. o At 250 users, Linux performed over 30% of sorts on disk instead of sorts in memory. (swapping) For all of these tests, Linux used 17% - 40% more memory than MS Windows Server. o At 3500 users, the Transactions Per Minute for MS Windows were 18% higher than the Linux Transactions Per Minute. o At 4000 users, MS Windows Server TPM continued to increase while the Linux test failed to complete. (linux fell over and di...

Using FreeBSD on a Windows 2k Active Directory Domain
Hi am considering rebuilding my laptop with FreeBsd. I need to do the follwoing things, and would appreciate any advise, or even confirmation that they can be done with FreeBSD: 1) Need to connect to a corporate Win 2k AD domain and access shares etc 2) Need a VNC and Terminal Services client on the laptop to access coroprate utilities 3) Need an Exchange/Outlook client to get email/calendars 4) Need to be able to Sync a Palm Tungsten T2 to Exchange/Outlook client Can anyone confirm that this can be done... jJ Joe <joe@nothanks.com> wrote: > Hi am considering reb...

Using kerberized Unix services from Windows clients authenticating against a Windows 200x Server AD
Hello, I'm relatively new to Kerberos; just compiled it from source and installed it locally, so I can telnet to my own Linux machine without password. After going through a somewhat lengthy configuration I finally was able to start the kerberized telnetd daemon in inetd.conf and connect with a kerberized telnet without being prompted for my password. My Linux box is connected to a network serviced by Windows 2000 Server AD. My question is: how should I configure this setup such that I can do a kerberized telnet from a (any?) Windows client in the AD to my Linux box? I suppose this has ...

how to use swing/awt controls in a window that uses double-buffering?
hello!i'm using a JFrame with enabled double-buffering. the window itselfowns several JInternalFrames. my problem is that when double-bufferingis enabled, the internal frames are invisible, with an exception thatthey flicker for few milliseconds when i move the mouse over theirposition.is it possible to use internal frames or controls at all along withdouble-buffering?if not, what else could be done?thanks in advice! linuxadmin@yandex.ru wrote:> hello!> > > i'm using a JFrame with enabled double-buffering. the window itself> owns several JInternalFrames. my problem is th...

Just When I Was Getting Used To Using Using
I have a class Packet that contains a nested class Payload and an enumeration: struct Packet { struct Payload { } ; } ; I had gotten into the habit of writing: using Packet::Payload; so I could write: Payload::..blah.. instead of Packet::Payload::..blah I have done this... (gulp) in many, many .cpp files. I tried out the new Visual C++ Express compiler from you-know-who on my source code and got 1000's of error messages: ...\Packet\Packet.cpp(13) : error C2885: 'Packet::Payload': not a valid using-declaration at non-class scope What does the standard say? Is th...

Using SSO with Windows 2000 KDC using JAAS krb5LoginModule
Hi, I am currently working on a module which will use the credentials cache of Windows machine and authenticate the user using Krb5LoginModule. I have all the related information in bits and pieces and I want to create an application using this. Does any one have a sample code which does the similar thing? I have the sampleserver code with me and that runs fine. But it requires me to input the username and password to the application. I want to omit this step and use the username/password in the credentials cache to create a security context. Any help like code, pointers or steps wil...

Why Windows Uses Backslashes and Everything Else Uses Forward Slashes
http://www.howtogeek.com/181774/why-windows-uses-backslashes-and-everything-else-uses-forward-slashes/?PageSpeed=noscript Have you ever noticed that it's C:\Windows\ in Windows, http://howtogeek.com/ on the web, and /home/user/ on Linux, OS X, and Android? Windows uses backslashes for paths, while everything else seems to use forward slashes. Modern software tries to automatically correct you when you type the wrong type of slash, so it doesn't matter which type of slash you use most of the time. But, sometimes, the difference still matters. So why...

What name is used to log into to Freebsd server from a Windows XP workstation?
What name does Windows XP Pro use when it logs into a Freebsd server? = Is it the original account name, a changed account name, the computer = name or something else?=20 I'm using an Intel Network Attached Storage appliance that runs FreeBSD. = See http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/ib072099.htm and = http://www.intel.com/support/inbusiness/storagestation/. This is used = simply as a file server in a small office. I had given a user permission = to access a certain folder on this Intel Freebsd server and the user was = able to access it just fine. We replaced the u...

Running a WLAN USB device under FreeBSD using Windows drivers
Hi, I have a special WLAN USB device which can only be run using the Windows drivers. Under Linux, this works perfectly with ndiswrapper. Unfortunately, the FreeBSD ndis doesn't support USB devices. Is there an alternative to ndis that I can use to make my device running under FreeBSD? The device is a t-sinus154 data (maybe one of the German users knows something about making this run under FreeBSD?). This is the result of lsusb: Bus 001 Device 002: ID 083a:4501 Accton Technology Corp. Does anyone have an idea whether I would be able to solve this problem? TIA, Alex ...

Mac OS X use versus Windows XP use...
Reading one of George Graves rants about how hard it is to use Windows inspired me to make this post. We constantly see remarks about how hard it is to use Windows, and how easy it is to use Macs. I'd like to go on record as saying I don't use any OS. I use applications. I play games. Anything "easy" or "hard" about that is a product of the application. An OS can't make a good application out of a bad one. The OS is just the layer that schedules and alots resources, and handles interprocess communications. Any modern OS has drag and drop, and a c...

Multiple windows using window.open()
I have 2 jsp pages which are loaded from the same browser window. Inside these jsp pages, I have created 2 windows to write client side log. I have used different id for 2 windows as follow. In JSP1 page I create one window & second window is created in jsp2 page. Win1 = window.open('Log1', 'win1', config='right=0,top=60,toolbar=0,width=300,height=300,resizable=1,scrollbars=1,location=no,status=no '); Win1.document.writeln(yyyy + '-' + mm + '-' + dd + ' ' + hh + ':' + mn + ':' + ss + ',' + ms); Win2 = window.open(...

Web resources about - If you used to use Windows or now used Windows less because of FreeBSD why? - comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc

Window - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is about the part of a building. For the Microsoft operating system, see Microsoft Windows . For other uses, see Window (disambiguation) ...

Microsoft Windows Information, Solutions, Tools - Windows IT Pro
Microsoft Windows information and solutions for IT pros. Topics include cloud computing, Windows Server, Exchange, Outlook, PowerShell, virtualization, ...

The Windows Blog
The Windows Blog is Microsoft's Official Blog for the Windows Operating System.

How-To: Display window previews for apps in the OS X Dock
... Mac users. There are a few items on the list, however, that are staples in my opinion. For example, I would hate it if every minimized window ...

Microsoft Ends Effort To Bring Android Apps To Windows 10 Mobile
... developer Conference Microsoft demoed four application bridges that they hoped would improve the number of applications available for Windows ...

Users of Microsoft's 'free' Windows 10 find unexpected ads on lock screen
Microsoft recently began running advertisements directly on the lock screens of Windows 10 devices, catching users by surprise with marketing ...

Microsoft confirms: Android-on-Windows Astoria tech is gone
... Sean Gallagher) At its Build developer conference last year, Microsoft announced four "bridges" for bringing applications into the Windows ...

I'm going to let you into a little secret about Windows 10
Wait for it... wait for it... For all of the criticism I have levelled at Microsoft, I actually rather like Windows 10. It is, of course, not ...

What it’s like using Windows 10 through the eyes of HoloLens
... be exciting developments. A new Microsoft tutorial video, first seen by WinBeta , shows us how apparently easy it is to flick open a Windows ...

Microsoft officially gives up on its ambitious plan to bring Android apps to Windows
... has officially closed down "Project Astoria" — a software tool first announced in 2015 to help developers bring their Android apps to Windows ...

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