Larry Wall and Cults
(Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
200012

Dear readers,

Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
teach, but will try to brief you.

These cults, are often lead by a single person. They form a group as
small as a dozen to multinational octopuses (such as
Scientology). Their creed varies from the mild in appearance
(Dianetics) to appalling (flat earth, extraordinary life-after-death,
impinging apocalypse scenarios, militant anti-government conspiracy,
diabolism with human sacrifices ...). Don't think that i'm citing from
some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
difficult to find in real life. Some of these cult leaders, are so
able to totally wash their member's brain, as to have them
autonomously swear and volunteer to die for the cause of the cult.
Occasionally, you'll even see mass suicide.

You know, the world is not made completely of rubes. Somebody
somewhere, will observe this phenomenon and study or report it as
is. Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
interested to verify that sometimes.

These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
can only kill few at a time. You see, it is the people, people like
you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything. You
know the concept of war, right? We have two massive body of people
committed to cut off other people's head or otherwise stick a knife in
their bodies or bomb off an arm or leg. How did that happen? Well, it
starts with patriotism for people like you and (not) me.

Now, back to topic. In the computing world, there're also bad seeds
with colorful creed taking innocent mobs forming cults. The three
principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and
Hubris. Yes?

How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

--------
This post is archived at
 http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/larry_wall_n_cults.html

Copyright 2000-2004 Xah Lee. Verbatim Reproduction for non-commercial
purposes is hereby granted provided proper credit is given.

 Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
 http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote:

>
>Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

Yes, we've heard of them.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net

xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) writes:
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

I had no idea.  Good thing you're here to help us out.

-=Eric
-- 
Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million
typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare.
		-- Blair Houghton.

Xah Lee:
>I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on this earth.
>Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

What are you replacing Unix with?

-- 
Ren� Pijlman

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote:

> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

Kenneth Williams used to claim repeatedly that he was a cult.  This
was in the 1960s.  So, yes, I think I know that "there's this thing
called cult".

> It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
> teach, but will try to brief you.

That's OK.  I've done it for you.  Now, try investigating "Rambling
Sid Rumpo".

Giles.

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Xah Lee wrote:

> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich

Rich Teer wrote:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
> Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

A great allegory about garbage collection, wasn't it?

	Paul

Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote: [stuff]

Why was Larry's name in the title again?  I don't think our illustrious
OP got around to making his point.  But at least he got that Nazi
mention in there.  Good for him!

Tim Hammerquist

Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?

Robert wrote:

> Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?

No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...

-Peter

xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>...

> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. BTW, what
does this have to do with Lisp? We are more of a therapy and support
group than a cult.

Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
> Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

Great song, but their hard-hitting stuff is even better. For instance
"Lisp in the Hills" or "Career of Eval".
-- 
  (espen ;-)

Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:

> I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.

Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
1984-1995.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5qktk6gx9kr3~T1

Also sprach Johnny:

> xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>...
> 
>> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> 
> I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. 

It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really. 

;-)

Tassilo
-- 
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval

Python is not a cult.  We therefore have no collective interest in trashing
other languages or language designers.

Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to love
;).

Btw:

(english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"

Michiel

"Peter Hansen" <peter@engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca...
> Robert wrote:
>
> > Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>
> No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>
> -Peter

Michiel Borkent wrote:

> "Peter Hansen" <peter@engcorp.com> wrote:
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...

> Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to love
> ;).
> 
> Btw:
> 
> (english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"

Pardonu... estis sxerco, evidente!

-Peter

In alt.folklore.computers Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu> wrote:
> 
> That's OK.  I've done it for you.  Now, try investigating "Rambling
> Sid Rumpo".
> 

I need to fossick through me ganderbag and work out a way of mp3ing my
taped collection of Rambling Syd's artefacts, me dearios.

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

Jes, mi komprenis. Dankon por la inspiro: mi jxus kreis novan subskribajxon.

Amike,
Michiel
-- 
LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.
Visit http://www.pictureofthemoon.net/~borkent  for my webpage.
---

"Peter Hansen" <peter@engcorp.com> wrote in message
news:Nbudnes8cfDjWLDcRVn-sA@powergate.ca...
> Michiel Borkent wrote:
>
> > "Peter Hansen" <peter@engcorp.com> wrote:
> >>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>
> > Erm, please don't make false propaganda for the language I happen to
love
> > ;).
> >
> > Btw:
> >
> > (english-to-esperanto "troll") ==> "trolo"
>
> Pardonu... estis sxerco, evidente!
>
> -Peter

xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>...
> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
> 
> Dear readers,
> 
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
> It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
> teach, but will try to brief you.
> 
>

Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:

   "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"

If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
element of Perl design!

>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
> 
> 

It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...

Mark.

[Sara]
> just look at the reaction if any questions any element of Perl design!

My one and only foray into comp.lang.perl was to ask about the rationale
behind using regular expressions as the mechanism for untainting tainted
data.  Since regular expressions are so pervasive in Perl code, it seemed to
me (as a Perl beginner) that it made it very easy to untaint without
realising it.  I never returned, and I'm grateful to the Python community
for not being the Perl community.  8-)

-- 
Richie Hindle
richie@entrian.com

Peter Hansen <peter@engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>...
> Robert wrote:
> 
> > Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
> 
> No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
> 
> -Peter

Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.


Norman
tradukita:
You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
esperanto.

"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote in message
news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com...
> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
>
<BIG SNIP>

In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
maroon!  What a Trollup!

RB

norman werner schrieb:
> Peter Hansen <peter@engcorp.com> wrote in message news:<aNidnUSV4-OK4rDcRVn-jA@powergate.ca>...
> 
>>Robert wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>>
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
>>
>>-Peter
> 
> 
> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> 
> 
> Norman
> tradukita:
> You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
> dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
> esperanto.

I've only taken a superficial look to Esperanto but your "tradukita"
seems to be a very loose translation. What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
"You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 07:07:43 -0700, "R Baumann" <rynt@9yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012
>>
><BIG SNIP>
>
>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
>maroon!  What a Trollup!
>

His plane curve work is not far from some of my own obsessions. I knew
of and admired his site.

Didn't know he had other interests as well ;)

Maybe an extreme me.

All obsessions in moderation, is my motto.


Art

>RB
>

"Markus Wankus" <markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Q3lXc.22457$_H5.654259@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >>I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
> >>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
> >
> >
>
> It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...
>
> Mark.

Gotta have more cowbell. . . .

Johnny

> What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
> "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?

>> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
Please don't make jokes about unknown things. "Xah Lee" for certain - [for 
esperanto] failing to have the

>> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

Saluton,
Marco

On 2004-08-26, Sara <genericax@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:
>
>    "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"
>
> If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
> element of Perl design!

Over here in c.l.python, it's more like

   "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
    it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
    different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
    the voting algorithms."

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  I'm ZIPPY!! Are we
                                  at               having FUN yet??
                               visi.com            

Rene Pijlman wrote:
> What are you replacing Unix with?


M$ Windows...   lol

Byron
---

*** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***

>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:

Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
Grant>     the voting algorithms."

Are the voting algorithms indented consistently?  That's a necessity,
correct?  Surely, they have significant whitespace.

/me ducks back under his rock

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!


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On 25 Aug 2004 23:57:24 -0700, spam_depository2004@yahoo.com (Johnny)
wrote:

>xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>...
>
>> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>
>I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. BTW, what
>does this have to do with Lisp? We are more of a therapy and support
>group than a cult.

That's fortunate, since Xah Lee obviously needs those services.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote, in part:

>Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?

We have heard of it.

>Don't think that i'm citing from
>some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
>difficult to find in real life.

Unlike the cult of Chthulhu, for example.

>Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
>very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
>are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
>cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
>interested to verify that sometimes.

Ah, yes. If it weren't for the interest of the FBI in cults, our
libraries would be much smaller, or they would emphasize warm audio and
video recordings more.

>Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>and his atrocities of genocide?

Yes, you are rather safe in assuming that.

>I must alert you, that a single person
>couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
>can only kill few at a time.

Yes, despite claims at the Nuremberg trials, Hitler didn't run the
concentration camps as a one-man operation.

>You see, it is the people, people like
>you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
>teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
>because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
>innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
>leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
>fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything.

They did, though, have to select from the German people those who would
operate the concentration camps.

As for the masses, it was enough that they were afraid to try to do
anything to stop it.

>How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
>and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

You are not providing any validation for your claim that these things
are so dangerous that the use of deadly force is justified or necessary.

John Savard
http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/index.html

On 2004-08-26, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>
>>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:
>
>Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>Grant>     the voting algorithms."
>
> Are the voting algorithms indented consistently? That's a
> necessity, correct?

Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
spaces?

> Surely, they have significant whitespace.

-- 
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Gee, I feel kind of
                                  at               LIGHT in the head now,
                               visi.com            knowing I can't make my
                                                   satellite dish PAYMENTS!

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:

> Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:
>
> > I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>
> Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
> 1984-1995.

I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
of the Blue �yster Cult.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich

John Savard wrote:
 > They did, though, have to select from the German people those who
 > would operate the concentration camps.
Which where the afraid ones or the ones that actually believed in him 
for one reason or another.  Yes, some people didn't need brain-washing 
to believe him.  I know it's a radical idea that some people are racist, 
but it true!

 > As for the masses, it was enough that they were afraid to try to do
 > anything to stop it.
Perhaps you should look into the history books a little closer.  There 
was this thing call the resistance in *all* the countries you know, not 
to mention the anti-nazi publications in the papers during his rise to 
power.  And without those resistance fighters, the allies might have 
failed in there endeavour.


Why did you even give an actual reply to this guy anyway?

In alt.folklore.computers R Baumann <rynt@9yahoo.com> wrote:
> In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
> maroon!  What a Trollup!
> 

He doesn't quite win, there's one regular afc troll who narrowly edges
him out... but I won't mention his name because that tends to invoke
him. ;)

pete
-- 
pete@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

On 2004-08-26, Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
>
>> Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:
>>
>> > I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>>
>> Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
>> 1984-1995.
>
> I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
> of the Blue �yster Cult.

Not in the sense of being any of the same people.

Perhaps you mean that there is some sort of jungian archetype "cult" of
which these are both examples. :-)

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - <dha@panix.com> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
One should never say such things, it's like wearing red overalls
in Pamplona.
        - Jarkko Hietaniemi

Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:

> I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
> of the Blue �yster Cult.

Does not seem so: Founding member Ian Astbury is not listed as member
of any other groups, for instance.

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:5qktk6gx9kr3~T1

Most of you are crossposting this thread to 5 newsgroups. Are you aware of this
fact or are you just hitting reply?

-- 
Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf@hgvybt.qr

xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) writes:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012

[ Poor standup comedy deleted ]

> These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
> life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
> manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
> to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler

Godwin! In the first post of the thread too...

Joe
-- 
If you don't think too good, don't think too much
  - Ted Williams

Marco Aschwanden schrieb:
>> What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
>> "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?
[...]
> letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

Thanks, Marco.

Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

Peter Maas

-- 
Peter Maas, Aachen, Germany, Tel +49-241-38200 e-mail crgre.znnf@hgvybt.qr

> I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on this earth.

Sounds suicidal to me,


        Stefan

Rich Teer wrote:

>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tor Iver Wilhelmsen wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Rich Teer <rich.teer@rite-group.com> writes:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>>>      
>>>
>>Actually, there is also The Cult, a British band that lasted from
>>1984-1995.
>>    
>>
>
>I belive the Cult (She Sells Sanctuary, etc.) is another manfifestation
>of the Blue �yster Cult.
>  
>

No, the two are totally unrelated.  (One was American (New York) and led 
by Eric Bloom, the other was British (London) and led by Ian Astbury.)

However, The Cult did have an earlier incarnation as Southern Death Cult.

Jeff Shannon
Technician/Programmer
Credit International

Tassilo v. Parseval <tassilo.von.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

> It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
> can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
> and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really.
> 
> ;-)
> 
No offense but could you add some references so anyone can make up is
own opinion?

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"

Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:

> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> 
What you mean with Unixism?

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"

["Michiel Borkent" <borkent@cs.utwente.nl>, Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:38 +0200]:
> LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.

Ankaux miaj - krom, eble, ankaux la Haskella.

Stranga koncentrigxo de verdlingvanoj cxe cll, cxu ne?

Albert.

Marco Aschwanden wrote:

> > What does the Kaj ... phrase mean?
> > "You are dumb", "Your joke is dumb", ...?
> 
> >> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Please don't make jokes about unknown things. "Xah Lee" for certain - [for
> esperanto] failing to have the
> 
> >> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> letter 'y' - is not esperanto. And your joke is nothing but stupid.

That's two bad translations so far.

"Please don't joke about unknown issues.  'Xah Lee' certainly, on
account of the lack of an X, is not Esperanto.'  And your joke is only
stupid."  (Though _stupid_ was misspelled.)

"Xah Lee" doesn't have a Y in it, after all!

-- 
 __ Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
/  \ San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
\__/ The main thing in life is not to be afraid of being human.
    -- Pablo Casals

Who let that idiot back in?

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
....
>  Xah
>  xah@xahlee.org
>  http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html

otto.wyss@orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss) writes:

> Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
> 
> > this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
> > 
> What you mean with Unixism?

It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
    
    
    Last week i bought a chain saw with a
    twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
    careful, but by accident it chopped one
    of my arm off, then i thought to myself
    "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
    be the fashionable mode of thinking
    among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who
    would equate power and flexibility with
    rawness and complexity; disciplined by
    repeated accidents. Such a tool would
    first chop off the user's brain, molding
    a mass of brainless imbeciles and
    microcephalic charlatans the likes of
    Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
    asses. --Xah Lee


$ telnet xahlee.org 80;
Trying 208.186.130.4...
Connected to xahlee.org.
Escape character is '^]'.
GET / HTTP/1.1

HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> > What you mean with Unixism?
> 
> It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
>     
>     
>     Last week i bought a chain saw with a
>     twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
>     careful, but by accident it chopped one
>     of my arm off, then i thought to myself
>     "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
>     be the fashionable mode of thinking
>     among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who

Thanks, for the clarification. For a none native English it's sometimes
difficult to grasp the underlying meaning. And do I understand it right
that Xah Lee _speaks_ against "Unixism" instead of producing code?

Well then I may point at "wyoism", the cult of the code producer. 
;-)

O. Wyss

-- 
How to enhance your code, see "http://freshmeat.net/projects/wxguide/"

So spake Rich Teer:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
>
>I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.

And then there's this crazy little thing called love...
-- 
Reynir Stef�nsson (reynirhs@mi.is)

So spake R Baumann:

>
>"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012
>>
><BIG SNIP>
>
>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  What a
>maroon!  What a Trollup!

Well, wasn't it lwall that said: "All language designers are arrogant.
Comes with the territory."?
-- 
Reynir Stef�nsson (reynirhs@mi.is)

Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

> otto.wyss@orpatec.ch (Otto Wyss) writes:
> 
> 
>>Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>>>
>>
>>What you mean with Unixism?
> 
> 
> It's always funny to observe people's contradictions:
>     
>     
>     Last week i bought a chain saw with a
>     twisted handle. Perhaps i wasn't
>     careful, but by accident it chopped one
>     of my arm off, then i thought to myself
>     "gosh, this is POWERFUL!". This seems to
>     be the fashionable mode of thinking
>     among the unixers or unixer-to-be, who
>     would equate power and flexibility with
>     rawness and complexity; disciplined by
>     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
>     first chop off the user's brain, molding
>     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
>     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
>     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
>     asses. --Xah Lee
> 
> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?

:)

kenny

-- 
Cells? Cello? Celtik?: http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cells/
Why Lisp? http://alu.cliki.net/RtL%20Highlight%20Film

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:09:32 -0700, Jeff Shannon <jeff@ccvcorp.com>
wrote:


>The Cult did have an earlier incarnation as Southern Death Cult.

And Blue Oyster Cult was originally Soft White Underbelly.

George
-- 
for email reply remove "/" from address

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote:

>
> Unixism
>

"Isms", in my opinion, are not good.  A person should not believe in
an "ism".  He should believe in himself.
											Ferris Bueller


-- 
for email reply remove "/" from address

Also sprach Otto Wyss:
> Tassilo v. Parseval <tassilo.von.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> wrote:
> 
>> It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
>> can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
>> and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really.
>> 
>> ;-)
>> 
> No offense but could you add some references so anyone can make up is
> own opinion?

For instance this one:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=ced06f6c6a36927f&rnum=4>

Pay particular attention to the fact that he's whining about a certain
feature of a Perl module but posts not only in comp.lang.perl.misc but
also in the scheme, lisp, python and ruby group.

Tassilo
-- 
$_=q#",}])!JAPH!qq(tsuJ[{@"tnirp}3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$-3(rellac(=_$({
pam{rekcahbus})(rekcah{lrePbus})(lreP{rehtonabus})!JAPH!qq(rehtona{tsuJbus#;
$_=reverse,s+(?<=sub).+q#q!'"qq.\t$&."'!#+sexisexiixesixeseg;y~\n~~dddd;eval

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Reynir Stef�nsson wrote:

> And then there's this crazy little thing called love...

Nah - that was Queen!

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich

Albert Reiner <areiner@tph.tuwien.ac.at> wrote in message news:<vw8fz6938pw.fsf@berry.phys.ntnu.no>...
> ["Michiel Borkent" <borkent@cs.utwente.nl>, Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:35:38 +0200]:
> > LISP and Esperanto: my favorite languages.
> 
> Ankaux miaj - krom, eble, ankaux la Haskella.
> 
> Stranga koncentrigxo de verdlingvanoj cxe cll, cxu ne?
> 
> Albert.

estas koncentrig:o. Ambau: lingvoj estas elektata de inteligentaj homoj :)
Espereble mi ne g:ustas - ne mi s:atas induktitan konkludon pri homaro.


Norman

George Neuner schrieb:

>>Unixism
>>
> 
> 
> "Isms", in my opinion, are not good.  A person should not believe in
> an "ism".  He should believe in himself.

Yes! Down with electromagnetism, optimism, idealism.

And first of all:

Fight patriotism.

;)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Maas,  M+R Infosysteme,  D-52070 Aachen,  Tel +49-241-93878-0
E-mail 'cGV0ZXIubWFhc0BtcGx1c3IuZGU=\n'.decode('base64')
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Kenny Tilton <ktilton@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
> 
> :)

No, that of no more using things that you condemn.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

norman werner wrote:

> Peter Hansen <peter@engcorp.com> wrote:
>>Robert wrote:
>>>Isn't "Xah Lee" chinese for "Moron"?
>>No, it's Esperanto (universal language) for "troll"...
> 
> Bonvolu ne s:ercu pri nekonatoj aferoj. "Xah Lee" certe - pro manko de
> Ikso - ne estas esperanto. Kaj via s:erco nur s:tulta estas.
> 
> Norman
> tradukita:
> You certainly have not the slightest idea about esperanto. So please 
> dont't emberass yourself. And back to topic(?): "Xah lee" is not
> esperanto.

Well, let's see how your clear your mind was today.

Either it's a joke, in which case it is clear to all
that it doesn't really mean troll, or it's not a joke
in which case I obviously don't know Esperanto.

Here are the facts:

1. It's a joke, as you surmised.

2. I know Esperanto.

Now can you perhaps see that your first comment in the poor
translation of your own Esperanto is invalid and offensive?

By the way, to those not fluent in both languages, what this
fellow really wrote was more along the lines of "Please do not
joke about things you don't know about.  Xah Lee certainly --
because Esperanto has no "x" -- is not Esperanto.  And your
joke is merely stupid."

If you're going to accuse me of stupidity, please at least
get your own translation and logic skills in working order
first.

-Peter

I think I just hit the 'wall'.
rlol

On 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee <xah@xahlee.org> wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
>
> Dear readers,
>
> Did you know that throughout history there's this thing called cult?
> It is a very interesting phenomenon. I don't have time to expound and
> teach, but will try to brief you.
>
> These cults, are often lead by a single person. They form a group as
> small as a dozen to multinational octopuses (such as
> Scientology). Their creed varies from the mild in appearance
> (Dianetics) to appalling (flat earth, extraordinary life-after-death,
> impinging apocalypse scenarios, militant anti-government conspiracy,
> diabolism with human sacrifices ...). Don't think that i'm citing from
> some arcane books buried in libraries. These are real, and not
> difficult to find in real life. Some of these cult leaders, are so
> able to totally wash their member's brain, as to have them
> autonomously swear and volunteer to die for the cause of the cult.
> Occasionally, you'll even see mass suicide.
>
> You know, the world is not made completely of rubes. Somebody
> somewhere, will observe this phenomenon and study or report it as
> is. Big brother organizations, such as the FBI, is keen on these and
> very interested in benefiting from social psychology themselves. They
> are recorded in books too. Ever wonder why the library houses so many
> cold volumes of paper? This is one contributing reason. You might be
> interested to verify that sometimes.
>
> These brain-washing phenomenon, are not limited to fanatical
> life-and-death or otherwise dire beliefs. You see it work in all
> manners of human thought in the general sense. From culture formation
> to fashion to commercialism.  Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
> couldn't commit such a crime. You see, even if you are superman, you
> can only kill few at a time. You see, it is the people, people like
> you and me, who commit the killings willingly, by Hitler's
> teaching. You may say: "no, i won't ever do such stupid thing", well
> because you are very ignorant about social psychology. It is precisely
> innocent people like you and (not) me, who were lead by the radical
> leaders of supreme brain-washing abilities. The innocent mob were
> fervent in their leader's vision and beliefs to commit anything. You
> know the concept of war, right? We have two massive body of people
> committed to cut off other people's head or otherwise stick a knife in
> their bodies or bomb off an arm or leg. How did that happen? Well, it
> starts with patriotism for people like you and (not) me.
>
> Now, back to topic. In the computing world, there're also bad seeds
> with colorful creed taking innocent mobs forming cults. The three
> principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness, Impatience, and
> Hubris. Yes?
>
> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending truths. Education
> and rationalism. I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.
>
> --------
> This post is archived at
>  http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/larry_wall_n_cults.html
>
> Copyright 2000-2004 Xah Lee. Verbatim Reproduction for non-commercial
> purposes is hereby granted provided proper credit is given.
>
>  Xah
>  xah@xahlee.org
>  http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/more.html



-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

Rich Teer wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004, Reynir Stef�nsson wrote:
> 
> 
>>And then there's this crazy little thing called love...
> 
> 
> Nah - that was Queen!

When I was seventeen
I drank some very good beer.
I drank some very good beer
I purchased with a fake ID.
My name was Brian McGee.
I stayed up listening to Queen.
When I was seventeen.

	Paul (channeling Homer)

"Paul F. Dietz" <dietz@dls.net> writes:

> When I was seventeen
> I drank some very good beer.
> I drank some very good beer
> I purchased with a fake ID.
> My name was Brian McGee.
> I stayed up listening to Queen.
> When I was seventeen.
>
> 	Paul (channeling Homer)

D'oh!

In article <412dfc1c$0$65599$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>,
Grant Edwards  <grante@visi.com> wrote:
>On 2004-08-26, Sara <genericax@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Hey this ain't no CULT! Our creedo is simply:

>>    "Larry said it, I believe it, THAT settles it!"

>> If you don't believe it just look at the reaction if any questions any
>> element of Perl design!

>Over here in c.l.python, it's more like

>   "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>    it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>    different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>    the voting algorithms."

Now I understand what happenend in the 2000 election:  Al Gore, after
inventing the internet, became a python programmer :)

hawk
-- 
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign
dochawk@psu.edu  111 Hiller (814) 375-4846      \ /   against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 
Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \   

In article <HvadnUsZ7IAwc7DcRVn-sQ@megapath.net>,
R Baumann <rynt@9yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Xah Lee" <xah@xahlee.org> wrote in message
>news:7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com...
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012


>In this context --- This is the STUPIDEST thing I've ever heard.  

Nah.  I practiced law for five years.  :)

hawk
-- 
Richard E. Hawkins, Asst. Prof. of Economics    /"\   ASCII ribbon campaign
dochawk@psu.edu  111 Hiller (814) 375-4846      \ /   against HTML mail
These opinions will not be those of              X    and postings. 
Penn State until it pays my retainer.           / \   

"Pascal Bourguignon" <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
news:878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...

> Kenny Tilton <ktilton@nyc.rr.com> writes:

>> >>What you mean with Unixism?
>> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
>> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
>> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
>> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
>> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
>> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
>>
>> :)
>
> No, that of no more using things that you condemn.

    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
one every day.

    DS

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
> "Pascal Bourguignon" <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message
> news:878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...
>
> > Kenny Tilton <ktilton@nyc.rr.com> writes:
>
> >> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> >> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never
> >> used?
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> > No, that of no more using things that you condemn.
>
>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
> drive one every day.

And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
that their complaints are insincere.

Xho

-- 
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service                        $9.95/Month 30GB

In message <kw1xhujrt1.fsf@merced.netfonds.no>, Espen Vestre 
<espen@*do-not-spam-me*.vestre.net> writes
>Great song, but their hard-hitting stuff is even better. For instance
>"Lisp in the Hills" or "Career of Eval".

They even provided your very own theme tune to red/black trees -
"The Red and the Black"
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk
RSI Information:        http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/rsi.html

> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It's a hosting provider.  Funny though how they would use something like 
Fedora.

In article <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, Grant Edwards
<grante@visi.com> wrote:

> On 2004-08-26, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
> > *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
> >
> >>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:
> >
> >Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
> >Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
> >Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
> >Grant>     the voting algorithms."
> >
> > Are the voting algorithms indented consistently? That's a
> > necessity, correct?
> 
> Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
> spaces?

AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

--

"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> writes:

> "Pascal Bourguignon" <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message 
> news:878yc0ucyl.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...
> 
> > Kenny Tilton <ktilton@nyc.rr.com> writes:
> 
> >> >>What you mean with Unixism?
> >> >     repeated accidents. Such a tool would
> >> >     first chop off the user's brain, molding
> >> >     a mass of brainless imbeciles and
> >> >     microcephalic charlatans the likes of
> >> >     Larry Wall and Linus Torvald jolly
> >> > Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> >> >         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>
> >> So you like my approach, which is to condemn things they have never used?
> >>
> >> :)
> >
> > No, that of no more using things that you condemn.
> 
>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
> one every day.

I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

John Doherty <jdoherty@nowhere.null.not> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> wrote:
> > Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or spaces?
>  
> AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

You just reminded me of the infamous variable naming debate:

  - visualBasicStyle
  - javaStyle
  - perl_style
  - jumbledstyle

/me ducks out as sparks fly.... 

Tim Hammerquist

<ctcgag@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com...

> "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:

>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>> drive one every day.

> And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
> that their complaints are insincere.

    That's a load of crap.

    DS

Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
+---------------
| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
| Trying 208.186.130.4...
| Connected to xahlee.org.
| Escape character is '^]'.
| GET / HTTP/1.1
| 
| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
+---------------

So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him? [A lot of them do,
these days, 'cuz it's much cheaper than preloading RedHat Enterprise.]

Or are you complaining about that perfectly correct error message
which pointed out that you omitted a required HTTP/1.1 header?  ;-}  ;-}

    % telnet xahlee.org 80
    Trying 208.186.130.4...
    Connected to xahlee.org.
    Escape character is '^]'.
    GET / HTTP/1.1
    Host: xahlee.org 

    HTTP/1.1 200 OK
    Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 05:16:44 GMT
    Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
    Last-Modified: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:36:38 GMT
    ETag: "c41bc-87b-a8715980"
    Accept-Ranges: bytes
    Content-Length: 2171
    Connection: close
    Content-Type: text/html

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2 Final//EN">
    <html>
    <head>
    <title>Xah's Homepage</title>
    </head>
    <body  ... >
      ...[trimmed]...
    </body>
    </html>
    % 


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:

> Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> | Trying 208.186.130.4...
> | Connected to xahlee.org.
> | Escape character is '^]'.
> | GET / HTTP/1.1
> | 
> | HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> | Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> | Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
> |         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> +---------------
> 
> So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
> preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him? [A lot of them do,
> these days, 'cuz it's much cheaper than preloading RedHat Enterprise.]
> 
> Or are you complaining about that perfectly correct error message
> which pointed out that you omitted a required HTTP/1.1 header?  ;-}  ;-}

Obviously, I'm complaining the contradiction between his opinion about
unix about what I've underlined.

And I take care to select my hosting providers not using MS-Windows
(since I'm critical about MS-Windows).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

In article <jdoherty-2708041631070001@192.168.2.178>,
   jdoherty@nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
>In article <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, Grant Edwards
><grante@visi.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2004-08-26, Randal L. Schwartz <merlyn@stonehenge.com> wrote:
>> > *** post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeed.com ***
>> >
>> >>>>>> "Grant" == Grant Edwards <grante@visi.com> writes:
>> >
>> >Grant>    "Guido said it, that settles it, but we're going to discuss
>> >Grant>     it endlessly and and vote on it using six or seven
>> >Grant>     different voting algorithms anyway.  Then we'll argue about
>> >Grant>     the voting algorithms."
>> >
>> > Are the voting algorithms indented consistently? That's a
>> > necessity, correct?
>> 
>> Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
>> spaces?
>
>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
I guess not many will understand.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <cgp2u4$5nk$1@nntp.webmaster.com>,
   "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
>
><ctcgag@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
>news:20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com...
>
>> "David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
>
>>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>> drive one every day.
>
>> And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>> that their complaints are insincere.
>
>    That's a load of crap.

Sigh!  Another one who has no appreciation of irony.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote:
> Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> +---------------
>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>| Escape character is '^]'.
>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>| 
>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> +---------------
>
> So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
> preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?

There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
seriously.

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
"See daddy ? All the keys are in alphabetical order now."

David Schwartz wrote:

> <ctcgag@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com...
> 
> 
>>"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>>drive one every day.
> 
> 
>>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>>that their complaints are insincere.
> 
> 
>     That's a load of crap.
> 
>     DS
> 
> 


You're both right but ...

Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."

Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>


Is more like

Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.

Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!


Rather than

Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the 
doors squeak after a couple of years.

Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you should 
know.

Ian Wilson <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk> writes:

> David Schwartz wrote:
> 
> > <ctcgag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com...
> >
> >>"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
> >
> >>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
> >>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
> >>>drive one every day.
> >
> >>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
> >>that their complaints are insincere.
> >     That's a load of crap.
> >     DS
> >
> 
> 
> You're both right but ...
> 
> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
> 
> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
> 
> 
> Is more like
> 
> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
> 
> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!
> 
> 
> Rather than
> 
> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the
> doors squeak after a couple of years.
> 
> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you
> should know.

Case closed.  (And probably Xah has suicidal impulses).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 16:31:07 -0500
jdoherty@nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:

> In article <412e199e$0$8076$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, Grant Edwards
> <grante@visi.com> wrote:

> > Of course, but are they consistently indented using tabs or
> > spaces?
> 
> AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?

	One half inch is my preference for tab stops usually. A tab is a
tab and not some number of spaces.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:

> Larry Wall and Cults
> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
> 200012
> 
> Dear readers,
> 

[snip]

> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
> couldn't commit such a crime.

Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.

--Mac

+---------------
| jdoherty@nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
| >AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
| 
| Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
| required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
| I guess not many will understand.
+---------------
      
You might be surprised, Barb. Quite a few of the comp.lang.lisp crew 
are former PDP-10 geeks.  ;-}
  
And just to be sure *I'm* understanding what you're talking about,  ;-}
did you mean the convention of the second line of the following snippet?
  
    foo:    pushj   p,ckperm
	     pjrst  badprm          ; user lacks privs, complain & return.
	    movei   t0,cmdblk       ; o.k. to proceed.
	    ...

Indenting the non-skip return for a subroutine call was always pretty 
clear to me. Where things got really muddled (and contentious!) was 
when you had long skip chains of T{R,L}{Z,O,C,~}{N,E} instructions 
in which whether a particular instruction was in the skipped-to or 
non-skipped position depended dynamically on the flow of control 
above it. [HAKMEM was chock-full of that kind of "efficient" code.]
In that case, it seemed more readable to simply not indent anything in
the skip chain, and put a scary comment warning about the tricky code.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
<foo@bar.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>
>> Larry Wall and Cults
>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>> 200012

>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>
>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.

Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

In article <cJWdnetJbNOixazcRVn-iA@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>+---------------
>| jdoherty@nowhere.null.not (John Doherty) wrote:
>| >AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
>| 
>| Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
>| required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
>| I guess not many will understand.
>+---------------
>      
>You might be surprised, Barb. Quite a few of the comp.lang.lisp crew 
>are former PDP-10 geeks.  ;-}

<GRIN>  Yep for Lisp, but Perl and Python?  Everything after python is
printing off my screen (I hate forms).
>  
>And just to be sure *I'm* understanding what you're talking about,  ;-}
>did you mean the convention of the second line of the following snippet?

Yep, but you have a bug.  The MOVEI [emoticon scrolls down to look]
heh...  my reply form is non-porportional and now everything is
wrong.  That's why the hard and fast rule of 8 was used in PDP-10
land.
>  
>    foo:    pushj   p,ckperm
>	     pjrst  badprm          ; user lacks privs, complain & return.
>	    movei   t0,cmdblk       ; o.k. to proceed.
>	    ...
>
>Indenting the non-skip return for a subroutine call was always pretty 
>clear to me. 

It was to the -20 types, too.  The -10 types maintained that,
if the human code reader didn't know the call had a skip return,
he had no business looking at the code.  Having the opcodes all
line up left-justified made reading code quickly possible.

> ..Where things got really muddled (and contentious!) was 
>when you had long skip chains of T{R,L}{Z,O,C,~}{N,E} instructions 
>in which whether a particular instruction was in the skipped-to or 
>non-skipped position depended dynamically on the flow of control 
>above it. [HAKMEM was chock-full of that kind of "efficient" code.]
>In that case, it seemed more readable to simply not indent anything in
>the skip chain, and put a scary comment warning about the tricky code.

If you knew your biz, you didn't need the scary warning.  Now
consider a list of PUSHJs where each could have a skip, 
double-skip or triple-skip return.  Depending on which way
you're flowing through the code, each and every one could be
indented and not-indented.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <87llfzqmck.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>,
   Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>Ian Wilson <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk> writes:
>
>> David Schwartz wrote:
>> 
>> > <ctcgag@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:20040827135423.154$1T@newsreader.com...
>> >
>> >>"David Schwartz" <davids@webmaster.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>> >>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>> >>>drive one every day.
>> >
>> >>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>> >>that their complaints are insincere.
>> >     That's a load of crap.
>> >     DS
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> You're both right but ...
>> 
>> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
>> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
>> 
>> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
>> 
>> 
>> Is more like
>> 
>> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
>> 
>> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!
>> 
>> 
>> Rather than
>> 
>> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the
>> doors squeak after a couple of years.
>> 
>> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you
>> should know.
>
>Case closed.  (And probably Xah has suicidal impulses).

Nah, he's a Democrat of the Liberal flavor.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <0MiYc.109993$TI1.98802@attbi_s52>,
   Joe Smith <Joe.Smith@inwap.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>>>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
>> 
>> Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
>> required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
>> I guess not many will understand.
>
>I understand.
>The style I used for PDP-10 macro assembly language was
>   *) Indent two spaces for error return from subroutine or UUO (or jsys)
>   *) Indent one space for instructions that skip or may skip.
>
>The other point of contention was what to put between the opcode and
>its arguments; space vs tab.  I had some TECO macros that would
>undo the damage after pristine code had been munged by someone
>not conforming to style.  :-)

<GRIN>  And we had some that put them back.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

>>AND HOW MANY SPACES PER TAB STOP?
> 
> Eight.  Now talk about indenting skip returns...that one
> required blood transfusions.  [emoticon looks at list of n.g.]
> I guess not many will understand.

I understand.
The style I used for PDP-10 macro assembly language was
   *) Indent two spaces for error return from subroutine or UUO (or jsys)
   *) Indent one space for instructions that skip or may skip.

The other point of contention was what to put between the opcode and
its arguments; space vs tab.  I had some TECO macros that would
undo the damage after pristine code had been munged by someone
not conforming to style.  :-)
	-Joe

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:58:30 +0000, Brian Inglis wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
> <foo@bar.net> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Wall and Cults
>>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>>> 200012
> 
>>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>>
>>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.
> 
> Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org


Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.

But if the comparison must be explicit, as you seem to be saying, then I
have to concede the point.

Best regards,
Mac

"Ian Wilson" <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk> wrote in message 
news:cgq7ki$eg1$1@hercules.btinternet.com...

>>>>    I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful,
>>>>meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who
>>>>drive one every day.

>>>And if they continue to drive one everyday, perhaps you would conclude
>>>that their complaints are insincere.

>>     That's a load of crap.

> You're both right but ...
>
> Xah Lee: "I'm starting my own cult to exterminate morons on
> this earth.  Two things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl."
>
> Pascal Bourguignon: <Xah Lee's website runs on Linux, a Unix-like OS>
>
> Is more like
>
> Joe Blow: I'm going to exterminate all morons who drive a Ford Explorer.
>
> Fred Bloggs: But Joe, you drive a Ford Explorer!

    The you're missing is that 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* 
UNIX.

> Rather than
>
> Joe Blow: Ford Explorers are a little bit expensive to service and the 
> doors squeak after a couple of years.
>
> Fred Bloggs: Thanks for the tip Joe, I see you drive one, so you should 
> know.

    The problem with 'unixism' is its affect on UNIX, and it would be 
logical that only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism' and 
concerned about it.

    DS

On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:02:23 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
<foo@bar.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 06:58:30 +0000, Brian Inglis wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2004 20:59:08 -0700 in alt.folklore.computers, Mac
>> <foo@bar.net> wrote:
>> 
>>>On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:56:06 -0700, Xah Lee wrote:
>>>
>>>> Larry Wall and Cults
>>>> (Lazyness, Impatience and Hubris)
>>>> 200012
>> 
>>>> Surely you have heard of Adolf Hitler
>>>> and his atrocities of genocide? I must alert you, that a single person
>>>> couldn't commit such a crime.
>>>
>>>Wow, Godwin's law invoked on the first post of the thread.
>> 
>> Not quite, no comparison was made; see: 
>> http://groups.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=1991Oct22.140831.23313%40eff.org
>
>
>Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
>tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
>cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.
>
>But if the comparison must be explicit, as you seem to be saying, then I
>have to concede the point.

Google for the Godwin's Law FAQ on how to troll on Usenet, mention
Nazis, and not be caught by Godwins' Law. 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:49:48 +0200, "Tassilo v. Parseval"
<tassilo.von.parseval@rwth-aachen.de> wrote:

>> I bet Larry Wall's life insurance premiums just skyrocketed. 
>
>It would, if anyone could take Xah Lee Loo seriously. But really, no one
>can. He's more like the court jester, creeping out of the dark every so
>and so months. We're all very much enjoying his sporadic shows. Really. 

Really!


Michele
-- 
you'll see that it shouldn't be so. AND, the writting as usuall is
fantastic incompetent. To illustrate, i quote:
- Xah Lee trolling on clpmisc,
  "perl bug File::Basename and Perl's nature"

> Well, let's see how your clear your mind was today.
> 
> Either it's a joke, in which case it is clear to all
> that it doesn't really mean troll, or it's not a joke
> in which case I obviously don't know Esperanto.
> 
>

I read it as an 'two-in-one'. 
A (not funny) joke about the troll and an infantile  sideremark about
eo spreading more half-truths.
"universal language" - Whats that? What is a universal language ...
Besides expressing basic wishes for  food, attention or love. And
where is/was the relation between the troll and eo?


> Here are the facts:
> 
> 1. It's a joke, as you surmised.
> 
> 2. I know Esperanto.

i read it _later_ . From youre joke it seemed more like you "heard of
esperanto".


So I hereby withdraw the accusation of stupidity - standing firm only
on the not-funny-front.



> Now can you perhaps see that your first comment in the poor
> translation of your own Esperanto is invalid and offensive?



Allright - it was not a translation - the error was to call it an
translation. But since only a extremly small minority of readers could
read both - it seemed  ok for me to change not the basic-message but
the way to express this message. E.g. I could not see the relevance
for a non-eo-speaker of eo having a x or not. So i changed this in the
"translation".

> By the way, to those not fluent in both languages, what this
> fellow really wrote was more along the lines of "Please do not
> joke about things you don't know about.  Xah Lee certainly --
> because Esperanto has no "x" -- is not Esperanto.  And your
> joke is merely stupid."

Yep. 

> 
> If you're going to accuse me of stupidity, please at least
> get your own translation and logic skills in working order
> first.

At least i was not the only who misunderstood you. 

And please; Since you elaborated on my "translation" - it's ok to
criticize.
But the same does not hold true for my logic-skill-malfunction - so
either do not diagnose it or elaborate more on it.


Norman

On 28 Aug 2004 03:41:22 +0200, Pascal Bourguignon
<spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

>>     I don't follow you at all. I think you'll find the most useful, 
>> meaningful complaints about, say, a Ford Explorer from the people who drive 
>> one every day.
>
>I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
>but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

Not me. I'd just assume that they couldn't afford to switch vehicles
whenever they had a complaint.

-- 
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
removebalmerconsultingthis@att.net

Andre Majorel wrote:
> On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote:
> 
>>Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>+---------------
>>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>>| Escape character is '^]'.
>>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>>| 
>>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>+---------------
>>
>>So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
>>preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?
> 
> 
> There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
> didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
> your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
> seriously.
> 
Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
-Antony

On Sunday, in article
     <pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net> foo@bar.net "Mac"
     wrote:

> Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
> tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
> cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.

"Cautionary tale"????  Cautionary tale, my arse.

The post was the fuckwitted ramblings of a total raving looney; kill the
thread (and the original poster) and forget about it.

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
   national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
   software and decent hardware support."

Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> writes:
> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?

It's VMS'ism !

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> writes:
| > Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
| 
| It's VMS'ism !
+---------------

Well, originally, certainly, in the core of the kernel.
But there are plenty enough "Unixisms" in the rest of it!
[Go re-read "Worse is Better", then see if you don't agree...]


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Andre Majorel wrote:
>> On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>+---------------
>>>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>>>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>>>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>>>| Escape character is '^]'.
>>>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>>>| 
>>>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>>>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>>>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>>>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>+---------------
>>>
>>>So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
>>>preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?
>> 
>> 
>> There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
>> didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
>> your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
>> seriously.
>
> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?

If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:

>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>
>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
> 
> 
> It's VMS'ism !

Without all the security aspects, of course...

Loic.

Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote in message news:<87hdqptl96.fsf_-_@thalassa.informatimago.com>...

> 
> $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
> Trying 208.186.130.4...
> Connected to xahlee.org.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> GET / HTTP/1.1
> 
> HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
> Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Xah probably couldn't find any LispM based servers. Can you blame him?

Andre Majorel wrote:
> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).

CP/M files weren't quite exactly streams of bytes. They
were more like streams of 128-byte blocks (hence the
kludge of using control-Z to mark the end of a text
file).

-- 
Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
University of Canterbury,	
Christchurch, New Zealand
http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg

On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
> Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>
>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>
>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>
> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 

Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
Unix-style file handles ?

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

Andre Majorel wrote:
> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>
>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>
>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 
> 
> 
> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
> Unix-style file handles ?

Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has 
been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you 
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
   --  Rupert Goodwins

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.folklore.computers.]
On 2004-08-26, Markus Wankus <markus_wankusGETRIDOFALLCAPS@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>I think you're getting confused with the Blue �yster Cult.
>>>Don't Fear the Reaper - great song.
>> 
>> 
>
> It was a great song, but it needed more cowbell...

Well, there is always Witchunt by Rush...


-- 
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- ["Tara is grass, and behold how Troy lieth
low--And even the English, perchance their hour will come!"]

>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:

    John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
    John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
    John> a Unix clone.

With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
programs (which think / is for command line options).

Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
& future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix probably *is*
easier when you are not doing your best to make interoperability as
painful as possible.

-- 
Ville Vainio   http://tinyurl.com/2prnb

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.folklore.computers.]

> I'd expect to get these complaints indeed from people who drove it,
> but I'd be puzzled if they'd continued to drive it every day.

Um... maybe it's paid for?

I use things daily that I hate... I can't afford to replace them.

Maybe if the people had no *plans* to replace the Explorer, or they
turned around and bought yet another one, I could see your point.


-- 
shannon "AT" widomaker.com -- [There is a limit to how stupid people really
are -- just as there's a limit to the amount of hydrogen in the Universe. 
There's a lot, but there's a limit.  -- Dave C. Barber on a.f.c.  ]

In article <du7k6vfnvx9.fsf@amadeus.cc.tut.fi>,
Ville Vainio  <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:
>
>    John> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
>    John> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
>    John> a Unix clone.
>
>With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf line
>breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>programs (which think / is for command line options).
>
>Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the release
	...

Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).  Consider the "PIP" command.

When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
and "\" interchangably.

Craig, who wrote a lot of code for CP/M, MS-DOS 1* and Later....

Ville Vainio wrote:
>> "John" == John W Kennedy <jwkenne@attglobal.net> writes:
> 
>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since
>> 2.0, MS has been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into
>> a Unix clone.
> 
> With very little success. Notepad still only understands cr-lf
> line breaks, and / as path separator still screws up most of their
> cmd line programs (which think / is for command line options).
> 
> Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea,
> and have only lately started to have some regrets, visible as the
> release & future integration of SFU. Migrating ppl from Unix
> probably *is* easier when you are not doing your best to make
> interoperability as painful as possible.

Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.

-- 
"Churchill and Bush can both be considered wartime leaders, just
 as Secretariat and Mr Ed were both horses." -     James Rhodes.
"We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad
 morals.  We now know that it is bad economics" -         FDR

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:

> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

.... And has failed miserably to do so.

-- 
Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA, author of "Solaris Systems Programming",
published in August 2004.

President,
Rite Online Inc.

Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
URL: http://www.rite-group.com/rich

CBFalconer wrote:

> Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.
> 

Let the editor flame wars begin!

Get gvim!  www.vim.org

On 2004-08-31, Craig A Finseth <news@finseth.com> wrote:

> The / was chosen as the command line option separator because whoever
> wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands after a
> PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).

Whoever = Tim Paterson, then working for Seattle Computer
Products. Interesting historical stuff at

  http://www.patersontech.com/Dos/

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

David Schwartz wrote:

> 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* UNIX.
....
>  only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism'

Sorry, I don't see how an activity can be affected by something that has 
nothing to do with that activity.

Are you suggesting that Unix users don't have to deal with unixism? If 
that were so, why would Xah Lee have such a bee in his bonnet about it? [2]

Xah Lee says "unix should mean unixism, the way things are done in unix 
platform" [1]

Xah Lee also says "the unix shells ... is one giant unpurgeable shit 
pile arose from ad hoc hacks of unixism." [2]

It seems legit to wonder why he chooses to place his web-pages amongst 
shit piles.



[1]

The world unix should mean unixism, that is, the way things are done in 
unix platform, their culture, their hacking attitude, their social 
attitude, their preferences, their people, their tools, their languages, 
their ps grep config make shebang tartall gunzip README manifesto et cetera.

http://www.xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/freebooks.html


[2]

By the way, the unix shells and environment variable and ways, is quite 
a fucked up one. It is amazing to see its stupidities alluded as an 
advance for some language design argument. The whole morbidity of the 
prospect to place an executable script as any program name in any path 
with the fucked up ways to search for programs to execute and the fucked 
up way to determine whether it is a program by the fucked up permission 
bits system is one giant unpurgeable shit pile arose from ad hoc hacks 
of unixism.

http://www.xahlee.org/Writ_dir/comp_lang_lisp/124.txt


All hail!

On 31 Aug 2004 16:06:31 GMT, Craig A. Finseth <news@finseth.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
>that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
>way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

Which got removed quite some back.

>And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
>and "\" interchangably.


-- 
Arargh407 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

To reply by email, remove the garbage from the reply address.

red floyd wrote:

> Let the editor flame wars begin!

Anyone else remember Blackbeard?

sherm--

-- 
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org

On 2004-08-31, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
> red floyd wrote:
>
>> Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
> Anyone else remember Blackbeard?

Arr Sherm, me-lad, that I do, great man, never got his
round in though ;)

-- 
James					jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk

Black holes suck!

Craig A. Finseth wrote:
> Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
> whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
> after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).  Consider the "PIP" command.

> When they went to MS/DOS 2.0 and needed path separators, they found
> that "/" was already taken, so they used "\".  But there was a hidden
> way to tell the command interpreter that it could use "-" for options.

Except, of course, that it was useless, because 99% of programs did 
their own option parsing, and still do.  The hidden option only lasted 
one .1 subrelease, as I recall.

> And in all systems starting with 2.0, the system calls have taken "/"
> and "\" interchangably.

....which is /one/ thing that the FLOSS community can honestly thank them 
for.

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"Compact is becoming contract,
Man only earns and pays."
   -- Charles Williams.  "Bors to Elayne:  On the King's Coins"

Rich Teer wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004, John W. Kennedy wrote:
>>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
>>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

> .... And has failed miserably to do so.

Not entirely.  Porting GNU software and the like to MS-DOS and Windows 
could be a hell of a lot more difficult than it is.  Try porting almost 
anything to, for example, the MVS (classic) environment (which is why 
MVS now also includes a Unix-wise alternate environment).

-- 
John W. Kennedy
"You can, if you wish, class all science-fiction together; but it is 
about as perceptive as classing the works of Ballantyne, Conrad and W. 
W. Jacobs together as the 'sea-story' and then criticizing _that_."
   -- C. S. Lewis.  "An Experiment in Criticism"

Craig A. Finseth  <news@finseth.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Ville Vainio  <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
| >... and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
| >programs (which think / is for command line options).
| >Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
| >have only lately started to have some regrets...
| 
| Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
| whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
| after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
+---------------

Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!

+---------------
| Consider the "PIP" command.
+---------------

Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:43:34 GMT
red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> wrote:

> CBFalconer wrote:
> 
> > Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.
> > 
> 
> Let the editor flame wars begin!
> 
> Get gvim!  www.vim.org

	Wordstar 3.3 of course.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/

In article <41337FC9.8070902@hotmail.com>,
   Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Andre Majorel wrote:
>> On 2004-08-28, Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>Pascal Bourguignon  <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
>>>+---------------
>>>| $ telnet xahlee.org 80;
>>>| Trying 208.186.130.4...
>>>| Connected to xahlee.org.
>>>| Escape character is '^]'.
>>>| GET / HTTP/1.1
>>>| 
>>>| HTTP/1.1 400 Bad Request
>>>| Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 01:35:52 GMT
>>>| Server: Apache/2.0.50 (Fedora)
>>>|         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>+---------------
>>>
>>>So are you complaining about the fact that his hosting provider
>>>preloaded RedHat Fedora with Apache 2.0 for him?
>> 
>> 
>> There is no shortage of Windows-based hosting companies, so why
>> didn't he go there ? Whatever your opinions, it's best to put
>> your money where your mouth is if you expect to be taken
>> seriously.
>> 
>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?

Good bitgod, no.  AAMOF, Windows would be much improved if
it cut off its balls.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <j-OdnS-Q8aADqKjcRVn-tQ@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Craig A. Finseth  <news@finseth.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| Ville Vainio  <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
>| >... and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>| >programs (which think / is for command line options).
>| >Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>| >have only lately started to have some regrets...
>| 
>| Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
>| whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
>| after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
>+---------------
>
>Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
>PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!

You'ld probably get further about who's on first by knowing that
the guy who did OS-8 also did TOPS-10 monitor work.  It was not
unusual for one guy to work on all architectures within DEC.
If he liked to use TECO, he'd carry it over to the next project
and write it up in that computer's machine language.  An even
easier way to transfer functionality back then was to use
a cross-assembler.  For instance, I'd enter a programmer's PDP-11
code and put it into a file on the TOPS-10 system.  Then after
a fast assembler check with the cross-assembler of the coder's
choice, I would either punch the ASCII out of papertape or
run FILEX which would transfer the PDP-10 bits onto the DECtape
in PDP-11 format.

That's how code migrated in the olden days.
>
>+---------------
>| Consider the "PIP" command.
>+---------------
>
>Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.

Well, not quite :-).  COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
command.  DIRECT became its own program.  To do a directory
using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level 
command.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

> You'ld probably get further about who's on first by knowing that
> the guy who did OS-8 also did TOPS-10 monitor work.

I have here my manual of the "Cambridge Multiple-Access System - 
User's Reference Manual" (that's Cambridge, England) dated 1968.  The 
file system hierarchy separator is "/".

I don't know where -they- got the convention from in the first place, 
admittedly.

ObPDP:  the TITAN system had a PDP7 as a peripheral device, sort-of.


-- 
   "The disc file has a capacity of about 8 million words".

Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:

> On Sunday, in article
>      <pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net> foo@bar.net "Mac"
>      wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
>>tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
>>cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.
> 
> 
> "Cautionary tale"????  Cautionary tale, my arse.
> 
> The post was the fuckwitted ramblings of a total raving looney; kill the
> thread (and the original poster) and forget about it.
> 
Snicker. Definitely the most sensible suggestion I've seen so far.

regards
  Steve

Steve Holden <sholden@holdenweb.com> writes:

> Brian {Hamilton Kelly} wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, in article
>>      <pan.2004.08.30.00.02.19.911327@bar.net> foo@bar.net "Mac"
>>      wrote:
>>
>>>Hmm. No explicit comparison was made, but since the post is a cautionary
>>>tale (well, the post is a rambling mess, but I think it is trying to be a
>>>cautionary tale) I think the comparison is understood.
>> "Cautionary tale"????  Cautionary tale, my arse.
>> The post was the fuckwitted ramblings of a total raving looney; kill
>> the
>> thread (and the original poster) and forget about it.
>>
> Snicker. Definitely the most sensible suggestion I've seen so far.

That would of course make it a cautionary tale.

-- 
M�ns Rullg�rd
mru@mru.ath.cx

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 16:13:36 -0400, Sherm Pendley <spamtrap@dot-app.org> wrote:
>red floyd wrote:
>
>> Let the editor flame wars begin!
>
>Anyone else remember Blackbeard?

Strangely enough I came across a floppy with that on yesterday...
(I've been sorting out my old 5.25-inch floppies with a view to archiving
them all on a spare hard disk...)

I use BBEdit, but you need a Mac for that :-)

-- 
Cheers,
Stan Barr     stanb .at. dial .dot. pipex .dot. com
(Remove any digits from the addresses when mailing me.)

The future was never like this!

red floyd <no.spam@here.dude> writes:

> CBFalconer wrote:
> 
> > Dump Notepad and get Textpad.  www.textpad.com.  First class.
> >
> 
> Let the editor flame wars begin!
> 
> Get gvim!  www.vim.org

none of those can hold the dimmest candle to the GNU Emacs.

Klaus Schilling

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:30:38 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
Ian Wilson <scobloke2@infotop.co.uk> wrote:

>David Schwartz wrote:
>
>> 'unixism' has nothing to do with *using* UNIX.
>...
>>  only those people who use UNIXes are affected by 'unixism'
>
>Sorry, I don't see how an activity can be affected by something that has 
>nothing to do with that activity.
>
>Are you suggesting that Unix users don't have to deal with unixism? If 
>that were so, why would Xah Lee have such a bee in his bonnet about it? [2]
>
>Xah Lee says "unix should mean unixism, the way things are done in unix 
>platform" [1]
>
>Xah Lee also says "the unix shells ... is one giant unpurgeable shit 
>pile arose from ad hoc hacks of unixism." [2]
>
>It seems legit to wonder why he chooses to place his web-pages amongst 
>shit piles.

ISTM that the criticism was better expressed by PDP-10ers in the "Unix
Hater's Handbook", available online. For further thoughts, read plan 9
documents, to see where the original implementors agree. 

OTOH there's the other OSes that crash, crawl, or just get in the way
of getting work done because you've got to do it their way or else! 
Feel free to use them instead, and be prepared to pay thru the nose. 

If you don't like some standard Unix OS feature, there's probably
another one out there based on every system which ever existed to
download, or you could write your own. 
If you don't like a standard Unix shell, there's probably another one
out there based on every system which ever existed to download, or you
could write your own. 
If you don't like a standard Unix editor, there's probably another one
out there based on every system which ever existed to download, or you
could write your own. 
etc...

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:36:14 -0500 in alt.folklore.computers,
rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:

>Craig A. Finseth  <news@finseth.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| Ville Vainio  <ville@spammers.com> wrote:
>| >... and / as path separator still screws up most of their cmd line
>| >programs (which think / is for command line options).
>| >Microsoft probably thought avoiding compatibility is a good idea, and
>| >have only lately started to have some regrets...
>| 
>| Wrong.  The / was chosen as the command line option separator because
>| whoever wrote MSDOS was looking to CP/M, who modelled their commands
>| after a PDP-11 operating system (RT-11?).
>+---------------
>
>Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
>PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
>
>+---------------
>| Consider the "PIP" command.
>+---------------
>
>Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.

But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:

	mount a ...
	attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...

It's been too long!

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:

>Andre Majorel wrote:
>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>> 
>>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>
>>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>
>>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 
>> 
>> 
>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>> Unix-style file handles ?
>
>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has 
>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap. 
Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
what causes the crashes! 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
+---------------
| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
| >+---------------
| >
| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
| 
| Well, not quite :-).  COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
| command.  DIRECT became its own program.  To do a directory
| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
+---------------

Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

Brian Inglis  <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.ab.ca> wrote:
+---------------
| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
| >Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
| >PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
| >
| >+---------------
| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
| >+---------------
| >
| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
| 
| But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:
| 	mount a ...
| 	attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...
+---------------

Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
before that.


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

In article <ApudnfQdCY-dfavcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>| >+---------------
>| >
>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>| 
>| Well, not quite :-).  COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
>| command.  DIRECT became its own program.  To do a directory
>| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
>+---------------
>
>Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
>of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
>That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.

IIRC, those verbs didn't show up until after 4S72 of TOPS-10 (it
wasn't TOPS-10 back then either).  I would also suspect that 
the PIP didn't originate at DEC either.  A lot of those guys
did work at MIT before they coalasced into a startup company.

My whole point is that attributing who started it is not
as interesting as how the "it" flowed through the biz.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <ApudnfcdCY-JfKvcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Brian Inglis  <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.ab.ca> wrote:
>+---------------
>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>| >Which, like PS/8 & OS-8 [and "DECsystem-8" from Geordia Tech] for the
>| >PDP-8, modelled the command syntax after that of the venerable PDP-10!!
>| >
>| >+---------------
>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>| >+---------------
>| >
>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>| 
>| But CP/M also derived from IBM VM CP(!) and CMS:
>| 	mount a ...
>| 	attach con/rdr/lst/pun ...
>+---------------
>
>Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
>before that.

Sigh!  Fortunately, IBMers and DECcies all spoke English.
There were a few words that were spelt differently just
to satisfy NIH syndromes.  

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
   Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
>Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>Andre Majorel wrote:
>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>>
>>>>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>>
>>>>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>>> Unix-style file handles ?
>>
>>Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has 
>>been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
>
>MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.

All right.  Now I'm mystified.  Why did they have to borrow code
from Unix?  They already had VMS.  ISTM, VMS had all of the 
above.
 
>Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
>what causes the crashes! 

Nope.  If you want to know what will get added to the next release
of MS' OSes, just read their small company acquisitions in the WSJ.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0409011503400.4389@ppepc56.ph.gla.ac.uk>,
   "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> You'ld probably get further about who's on first by knowing that
>> the guy who did OS-8 also did TOPS-10 monitor work.
>
>I have here my manual of the "Cambridge Multiple-Access System - 
>User's Reference Manual" (that's Cambridge, England) dated 1968.  The 
>file system hierarchy separator is "/".

And slash was used as a command modifier on the -10s.
File specification parsing used :: : [ ] < > , .
(Note that I did not use punctuation in that last sentence;
all those characters denoted a piece of a full file specification.
A slash said, "Here comes an exception to the last phrase
of the command."  

>
>I don't know where -they- got the convention from in the first place, 
>admittedly.

Trial and error.  Historic usage.  Typability.  Printability.
Not to mention the limitations of characters defined in the
ASCII-1964 standard.


>
>ObPDP:  the TITAN system had a PDP7 as a peripheral device, sort-of.

I don't think I ever met a PDP-7.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) writes:
> Those were also PDP-10 Monitor commands, and probably PDP-6 Monitor
> before that.

there may have been a little bit of common tracing back to the ctss
days ... however recent posting about him using cp/cms at npg when
he was writing pl/m
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#40 Which Monitor Would You Pick????

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> writes:
> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap. 
> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
> what causes the crashes! 

and unix goes back to multics ... which was on 5th floor, 545 tech sq.
while cp/cms was at the science center on 4th floor, 545 tech sq ... 
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#545tech
and they both go backto ctss

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:35:30 GMT, Brian Inglis  
<Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
> Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Andre Majorel wrote:
>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>> Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>>
>>>>> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>>
>>>> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
>>>
>>>
>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>>> Unix-style file handles ?
>>
>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
>> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
>
> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
> what causes the crashes!
>

You seeem misinformed.
Microsoft swallowed up a team from DEC.
The were developing a operating system called PRISM.
When the project was cancelled they quit DEC in protest.
These peaple had more than a 100 years of experience in developing  
muliuser /
mutitasking operating systems between them. The fact that the NT kernel is  
not
entirely stable yet really shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has  
messed with
it's kernel for 30 years. But the modular arcitecture and the microkernel  
are new ideas in
OS design and should in time lead to a more extensible OS than unix.
(Unix tradionally has a spagetti of intercalling function calls as a  
kernel.)
As for following standards thats just plain sense.
Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the problems  
with
interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

John Thingstad wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:35:30 GMT, Brian Inglis  
> <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
>> Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Andre Majorel wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
>>>>> Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
>>>>>> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
>>>>>> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
>>>>>> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
>>>>>> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
>>>> Unix-style file handles ?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
>>> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
>>
>>
>> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
>> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
>> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
>> what causes the crashes!
>>
> 
> You seeem misinformed.
> Microsoft swallowed up a team from DEC.
> The were developing a operating system called PRISM.
> When the project was cancelled they quit DEC in protest.
> These peaple had more than a 100 years of experience in developing  
> muliuser /
> mutitasking operating systems between them. The fact that the NT kernel 
> is  not
> entirely stable yet really shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has  
> messed with
> it's kernel for 30 years. But the modular arcitecture and the 
> microkernel  are new ideas in
> OS design and should in time lead to a more extensible OS than unix.

uKernels are *NOT* a new idea at all. They weren't a new idea when
NT was unleashed on the world. What people think of as "NT" is a big
pile of shite that obscures the uKernel. Since the graphics stuff
got put into ring 0 I think that you could legitimately claim that
BSD Unix is more of a micro kernel than NT. :)

> (Unix tradionally has a spagetti of intercalling function calls as a  
> kernel.)

Remember NeXTStep ?

> As for following standards thats just plain sense.
> Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the 
> problems  with
> interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.

Which I believe is derived from a Mach uKernel... The "UNIX" bits
are the FreeBSD userland utilities that surround it.

Cheers,
Rupert

Rupert Pigott <roo@try-removing-this.darkboong.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Remember NeXTStep ?
>
>> As for following standards thats just plain sense.
>> Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the
>> problems  with
>> interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.
>
> Which I believe is derived from a Mach uKernel... The "UNIX" bits
> are the FreeBSD userland utilities that surround it.

a cmu effort along with various andrew activities and camelot ... minor
recent ref:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004h.html#42 Interesting read about upcoming K9 processors

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

In comp.lang.lisp Rupert Pigott <roo@try-removing-this.darkboong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> John Thingstad wrote:
>>
>> As for following standards thats just plain sense.  Note the Mac OS
>> 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the problems  with
>> interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.
> 
> Which I believe is derived from a Mach uKernel... The "UNIX" bits
> are the FreeBSD userland utilities that surround it.

Well, no.  Mac OS X uses a BSD kernel implemented on top of the Mach
microkernel, much as Apple's experimental mkLinux placed a Linux kernel
on top of Mach.  OS X also uses a pretty standard set of BSD libraries
and utilities -- as well as the NeXT-derived ones.  (You can tell the
heritage apart pretty easily -- if it's written in Objective-C, it's
from the NeXT side.)

The BSD heritage is a two-way street:  Apple has contributed code
developed for OS X back to the FreeBSD and OpenBSD projects, as well as
releasing the whole Unix core of OS X as the open-source Darwin system.

It's also not particularly accurate to say that the reason Apple moved
to Unix was "interoperability".  Rather, the old Mac System was simply
never designed for what it ended up being used to do.  There were too
many layers of cruft -- and too many design decisions that were right
for 1984 but wrong for 1999.  Single-user, cooperative multitasking, and
a network stack designed for small LANs rather than the Internet ... the
old Mac System was a great microcomputer OS but not a great workstation
OS.

When you consider that the first Macs to run OS X were several hundred
times faster than the 1984 Mac, had one thousand times as much RAM, and
had fifty thousand times as much mass storage, it should follow pretty
naturally that the constraints of the old system's design would cease to
be appropriate.

	1984 Original Macintosh: 128kB RAM, 8MHz m68k, 400kB disk
	1999 Power Macintosh G4: 128MB RAM, 400MHz PPC G4, 20 GB disk

-- 
Karl A. Krueger <kkrueger@example.edu>
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Email address is spamtrapped.  s/example/whoi/
"Outlook not so good." -- Magic 8-Ball Software Reviews

On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:

> The fact that the NT kernel is not entirely stable yet really
> shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has messed with it's
> kernel for 30 years.

I feel compelled to point out that Linux achieved considerably
better stability after just a few years.

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:19:43 +0000 (UTC), Andre Majorel  
<amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:

> On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>
>> The fact that the NT kernel is not entirely stable yet really
>> shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has messed with it's
>> kernel for 30 years.
>
> I feel compelled to point out that Linux achieved considerably
> better stability after just a few years.
>

I feel compelled to replay that Linux is based on the Posix standard which
is basically a recipie for writing unix. They did not write a new
operating system. They implemented a tested and proven one.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 17:03:21 +0100, Rupert Pigott
<roo@try-removing-this.darkboong.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>John Thingstad wrote:
[...]
>
>uKernels are *NOT* a new idea at all. They weren't a new idea when
>NT was unleashed on the world. What people think of as "NT" is a big
>pile of shite that obscures the uKernel. Since the graphics stuff
>got put into ring 0 I think that you could legitimately claim that
>BSD Unix is more of a micro kernel than NT. :)
>
>> (Unix tradionally has a spagetti of intercalling function calls as a  
>> kernel.)
>
>Remember NeXTStep ?

QNX is another example of a microkernel OS, "unixy" without being
unix.  It's been around since, what, 1981?

AIUI, it used to be called Q-NIX, until a certain telephone company
complained.

Regards,

                               -=Dave
-- 
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

"John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> writes:
> Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the
> problems  with
> interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.

No that's not the reason. The reason is ONLY because of the lack of
virtual memory management (with separation of addressing spaces for
processes) in MacOS.  That's the one error in design in MacOS I
identified in version 1.0 that they've dragged all along for 20
years. (And I bet that if they did not make it, AAPL would be $50-$80
now, and they'd have at least 40%-50% of market share).  Instead,
they've wasted resources, CEOs and CTOs for 10 years before the NeXT
take over.


-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

John Thingstad wrote:
> 
.... snip ...
> 
> These peaple had more than a 100 years of experience in
> developing muliuser / mutitasking operating systems between
> them. The fact that the NT kernel is not entirely stable yet
> really shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has messed
> with it's kernel for 30 years. But the modular arcitecture
> and the microkernel are new ideas in OS design and should in
> time lead to a more extensible OS than unix.

The original NT (3.0) was well designed, but slow on the hardware
of the time.  Then MS got to work increasing module connectivity
and reducing reliability.  This is the usual premature
optimization bug, together with planned obsolescence.  The result
is an unmaintainable mess.

-- 
Some similarities between GWB and Mussolini:
a) The strut;  b) Making war until brought up short:
                    Mussolini: Ethiopia, France, Greece.
                    GWB:       Afghanistan, Iraq.

In comp.lang.lisp Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> "John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> writes:
>> Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the
>> problems  with interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and
>> Unix boxes.
> 
> No that's not the reason. The reason is ONLY because of the lack of
> virtual memory management (with separation of addressing spaces for
> processes) in MacOS.

It was my impression that the Motorola 68000 CPU, upon which the
original Macintosh was based, did not support memory management in
hardware.  At least, that's usually given as the reason that portable
Unix systems such as NetBSD will "never" run on the earlier 68k (or,
for that matter, 8086 or 80286) chips.

-- 
Karl A. Krueger <kkrueger@example.edu>
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Email address is spamtrapped.  s/example/whoi/
"Outlook not so good." -- Magic 8-Ball Software Reviews

"Karl A. Krueger" <kkrueger@example.edu> writes:
> When you consider that the first Macs to run OS X were several hundred
> times faster than the 1984 Mac, had one thousand times as much RAM, and
> had fifty thousand times as much mass storage, it should follow pretty
> naturally that the constraints of the old system's design would cease to
> be appropriate.

Yes, but the first NeXTcube or NeXTstation were not much more
powerfull than even the original Macintosh.  In anycase, at the time
the Macintosh appeared, there were already 680x0 based unix workstations.
  
> 	1984 Original Macintosh: 128kB RAM,  8 MHz 68000, 400 kB disk
    1989 low end NeXTcube:   128MB RAM, 25 MHz 68030, 256 MB optical disk!
> 	1999 Power Macintosh G4: 128MB RAM, 400MHz PPC G4, 20 GB disk

NeXTstep could have run on a MacIIfx (The TI Explorer ran on a MacIIfx).

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

"I don't think it*  can be won."  (*):the war on terror.

* Karl A. Krueger (kkrueger@example.edu)
....
> It was my impression that the Motorola 68000 CPU, upon which the
> original Macintosh was based, did not support memory management in
> hardware.

That is not the problem; one can do memory management and multiple
address spaces in external hardware as well. But the MacOS architecture
obviously wanted to be all in one address space, as did the early
windows versions. This makes GUI easier and networking and fault
isolation harder, but it's a valid tradeoff. :-)

What you can't do with the 68000 is virtual memory management
because that requires the processor to save the state of
execution in the middle of an instruction when needed data
is not physically in memory. 68020 and upwards provided that
feature, and the Sun 3/50 used a 68020 and a proprietary memory
management unit mainly consisting of two fast SRAMs to get
virtual memory support.

I don't know whether the 68000 already had user and supervisor
mode which is also (besides an MMU) a prerequisite for completely
jailing user programs.

Andreas

-- 
np: 4'33

Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> (The TI Explorer ran on a MacIIfx).

....on a nubus card (just like the MacIvory (Symbolics)), if I
remember right.
-- 
  (espen)

"Karl A. Krueger" <kkrueger@example.edu> writes:

> In comp.lang.lisp Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> > "John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> writes:
> >> Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the
> >> problems  with interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and
> >> Unix boxes.
> > 
> > No that's not the reason. The reason is ONLY because of the lack of
> > virtual memory management (with separation of addressing spaces for
> > processes) in MacOS.
> 
> It was my impression that the Motorola 68000 CPU, upon which the
> original Macintosh was based, did not support memory management in
> hardware.  At least, that's usually given as the reason that portable
> Unix systems such as NetBSD will "never" run on the earlier 68k (or,
> for that matter, 8086 or 80286) chips.

That's not exactly true.  There are some small problems with the
instruction set, but at the time Motorola sold 68000, they sold PMMU
and SMMU (segmented MMU) for it, and there was 68000 based
unix workstations.

Actually, the segmented MMU would have been a perfect match to the
Memory Management of the MacOS. 

The problem was that they started with a 6809 and 64KB in mind for the
Macintosh...

-- 
__Pascal Bourguignon__                     http://www.informatimago.com/

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never
stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and
neither do we.

Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
> "Karl A. Krueger" <kkrueger@example.edu> writes:
> 
>>When you consider that the first Macs to run OS X were several hundred
>>times faster than the 1984 Mac, had one thousand times as much RAM, and
>>had fifty thousand times as much mass storage, it should follow pretty
>>naturally that the constraints of the old system's design would cease to
>>be appropriate.
> 
> 
> Yes, but the first NeXTcube or NeXTstation were not much more
> powerfull than even the original Macintosh.  In anycase, at the time
> the Macintosh appeared, there were already 680x0 based unix workstations.

It was specifically the 68000. Fixes were made that took effect in the
68010 and 68020. Dunno about 68008. IIRC the problem was that you could
not restart some instructions properly. Some UNIX workstations did use
68Ks, there was an Apollo that had two of them running in lock-step,
with one of them one instruction behind the other. When the leading CPU
barfed, action would be taken and the other CPU would take over. Someone
in comp.arch worked on the Fortune boxes and IIRC he claimed they had a
more elegant single CPU solution.

Cheers,
Rupert

On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:19:43 +0000 (UTC), Andre Majorel  
><amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>>
>>> The fact that the NT kernel is not entirely stable yet really
>>> shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has messed with it's
>>> kernel for 30 years.
>>
>> I feel compelled to point out that Linux achieved considerably
>> better stability after just a few years.
>>
>
> I feel compelled to replay that Linux is based on the Posix standard
> which is basically a recipie for writing unix. They did not write a
> new operating system. They implemented a tested and proven one.

Are you arguing that the stability comes from the API, not from
the implementation ? If so, why has NT become more stable over
the years, since its API has not changed ?

-- 
Andr� Majorel <URL:http://www.teaser.fr/~amajorel/>
Conscience is what hurts when everything else feels so good.

On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:44:46 +0000 (UTC), Andre Majorel  
<amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:

> On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 18:19:43 +0000 (UTC), Andre Majorel
>> <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fact that the NT kernel is not entirely stable yet really
>>>> shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix has messed with it's
>>>> kernel for 30 years.
>>>
>>> I feel compelled to point out that Linux achieved considerably
>>> better stability after just a few years.
>>>
>>
>> I feel compelled to replay that Linux is based on the Posix standard
>> which is basically a recipie for writing unix. They did not write a
>> new operating system. They implemented a tested and proven one.
>
> Are you arguing that the stability comes from the API, not from
> the implementation ? If so, why has NT become more stable over
> the years, since its API has not changed ?
>

No but the algorithms for memory management, disk mangement and FTP in  
unix were
well documented at the time. Linux Pauling started out with minix and then
went on to make a (mostly) posix compliant unix.

Seem to remeber this from my student days.

Operating Systems (design and implication) Andrew S. Tanenbaum

Intrucudes minix, a mini unix compatible with version 7 of unix.
(Not to be confused with system V.. the roman numerals were introdused by  
AT&T)

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

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On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:44:46 +0000 (UTC), Andre Majorel  
><amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
>
>> On 2004-09-02, John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:

> No but the algorithms for memory management, disk mangement and FTP in  
> unix were
> well documented at the time. Linux Pauling started out with minix and then
> went on to make a (mostly) posix compliant unix.

IIRC, the only relation that Minix has with Linux is that Linus (Torvalds,
Pauling is a geneticist IIRC) was using it as an OS when he started 
developing the terminal emulator that eventually became Linux, and indeed
the kernel architecture is pretty fundementally different.

> Seem to remeber this from my student days.
>
> Operating Systems (design and implication) Andrew S. Tanenbaum
>
> Intrucudes minix, a mini unix compatible with version 7 of unix.
> (Not to be confused with system V.. the roman numerals were introdused by  
> AT&T)

Yeah, and apparently it is still the classic text on OS design.


- -- 
James					jamesk[at]homeric[dot]co[dot]uk

'No, `Eureka' is Greek for `This bath is too hot.'' -- Dr. Who
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Rupert Pigott <roo@try-removing-this.darkboong.demon.co.uk> writes:

> John Thingstad wrote:
> > On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 08:35:30 GMT, Brian Inglis
> > <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 14:26:03 GMT in alt.folklore.computers, "John W.
> >> Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Andre Majorel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
> >>>>> Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
> >>>>>> hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
> >>>>>> would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
> >>>>>> including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
> >>>>>> side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
> >>>> Unix-style file handles ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has
> >>> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.
> >>
> >>
> >> MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> >> NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
> >> Shame they keep trying to add their own ideas in too: that must be
> >> what causes the crashes!
> >>
> > You seeem misinformed.
> > Microsoft swallowed up a team from DEC.
> > The were developing a operating system called PRISM.
> > When the project was cancelled they quit DEC in protest.
> > These peaple had more than a 100 years of experience in developing
> > muliuser /
> > mutitasking operating systems between them. The fact that the NT
> > kernel is  not
> > entirely stable yet really shouldn't supprise anyone. Afterall Unix
> > has  messed with
> > it's kernel for 30 years. But the modular arcitecture and the
> > microkernel  are new ideas in
> > OS design and should in time lead to a more extensible OS than unix.
> 
> uKernels are *NOT* a new idea at all. They weren't a new idea when
> NT was unleashed on the world. What people think of as "NT" is a big
> pile of shite that obscures the uKernel. Since the graphics stuff
> got put into ring 0 I think that you could legitimately claim that
> BSD Unix is more of a micro kernel than NT. :)
> 
> > (Unix tradionally has a spagetti of intercalling function calls as a
> > kernel.)
> 
> Remember NeXTStep ?

Yes.  NeXTStep didn't have a microkernel.  The Mach kernel didn't get
changed to a microkernel design until after NeXTStep split off from
it.

-- Patrick

Rupert Pigott wrote:

> It was specifically the 68000. Fixes were made that took effect in the
> 68010 and 68020. Dunno about 68008. IIRC the problem was that you could
> not restart some instructions properly. Some UNIX workstations did use
> 68Ks, there was an Apollo that had two of them running in lock-step,
> with one of them one instruction behind the other. When the leading CPU
> barfed, action would be taken and the other CPU would take over. Someone
> in comp.arch worked on the Fortune boxes and IIRC he claimed they had a
> more elegant single CPU solution.

68000 - original
68010 - 68000 + SR access is privileged, CCR is unpriviliated + 
instruction restart for VM access
68008 -- 68000 with 8 bit external data bus, possibly restricted address 
bus (can't remember)
68020 -- 68010 + full 32-bit
68030 -- 68020 + MMU

xah@xahlee.org (Xah Lee) wrote in message news:<7fe97cc4.0408251356.34f2102a@posting.google.com>...
> 
> In the computing world, there're also bad seeds with
> colorful creed taking innocent mobs forming cults.
> The three principal virtues of a programmer are Laziness,
> Impatience, and Hubris. Yes?
> 
> How can we prevent heinous cults then? Stop bending
> truths.  Education and rationalism. I'm starting my
> own cult to exterminate morons on this earth.  Two
> things are on the top of my agenda: Unixism and Perl.

   You know... the original poster has a point...

   After all, Perl programmers have been known to "use Curses", as
well as hex(), bless(), and sin().  (Which might lead him to believe
that Perl programmers will eventually pack() their belongings, split()
from their families , and join an isolated community where there is
nothing to do but study() until you die() (or your mind goes
"pop()"!).

   Coincidence?  (I think so!)

   (Wow... Python advocacy has really taken a bizarre turn lately...)

   -- J.


(My apologies if I offended any Python programmers.  It was not my
intention to associate the Python community with the original poster.)

Rupert Pigott  <roo@try-removing-this.darkboong.demon.co.uk> wrote:
+---------------
| Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
| > In anycase, at the time the Macintosh appeared, there were
| > already 680x0 based unix workstations.
|
| It was specifically the 68000. Fixes were made that took effect in the
| 68010 and 68020. Dunno about 68008. IIRC the problem was that you could
| not restart some instructions properly. Some UNIX workstations did use
| 68Ks, there was an Apollo that had two of them running in lock-step,
| with one of them one instruction behind the other. When the leading CPU
| barfed, action would be taken and the other CPU would take over. Someone
| in comp.arch worked on the Fortune boxes and IIRC he claimed they had a
| more elegant single CPU solution.
+---------------

That would have been me, in <news:R4OdnfWrcMv1ekHdRVn_iw@speakeasy.net>,
replying to John Mashey. We tweaked the C compiler's calling conventions
enough to allow automatic stack growth by faulting off the end of the
stack to work reliably. See the referenced article for more detail.

But as I finished there:

    Though there were certainly other places where the mc68000's imprecise
    exceptions left no choice but to blow the offending process away...


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

Andreas Krey  <yyx-nospam@gmx.de> wrote:
+---------------
| I don't know whether the 68000 already had user and supervisor
| mode which is also (besides an MMU) a prerequisite for completely
| jailing user programs.
+---------------

Yes, it did. The original Fortune Systems box used a 68000 to run
a hybrid ATT-v.7/BSD-4.1a kernel. It "completely jailed" user programs,
as you put it. Though, as others have noted, since the 68000 could not
recover from arbitrary bus faults (SIGSEGVs), we were only able to
provide whole-process swapping, not general paging.

But as a consequence of this limitation, we were able to use a *much*
simpler external MMU, basically a four-segment base/limit style (think
of a PDP-10 with 4 segs instead of 2, or a PDP-11/44 with 4 instead of 8)
built out of 4x4 register files (74S670's, IIRC) instead of the expensive,
fast SRAMs Sun later used on their 68020 box.


-Rob

p.s. The four segments were text, data, "extra", and stack, equally
dividing the virutual address space, with the limits growing up from
the beginning of the segment for text & data and down from the end
for "extra" and stack. [In case you're wondering, "extra" was used
for various & sundry purposes: System-V shmem; for mapping /dev/mem
or /dev/kmem for kernel debugging; mapping hardware into user-mode
drivers; and similar stunts.]

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

[cc'ed to poster since I removed all the cross-posts from
c.l.py, which I'm guessing J. doesn't read]

J. Romano wrote:
>    After all, Perl programmers have been known to "use Curses", as
> well as hex(), bless(), and sin().  (Which might lead him to believe
> that Perl programmers will eventually pack() their belongings, split()
> from their families , and join an isolated community where there is
> nothing to do but study() until you die() (or your mind goes
> "pop()"!).

While Python programmers just import curses and hex().  We
also coerce() people into using indentation, which we
think is super() zip()py.  When things get complex() we
like to help() each other out.  To sum() it up, we're a
pretty open() bunch.

 > (My apologies if I offended any Python programmers.  It was not my
 > intention to associate the Python community with the original poster.)

No offense taken, and thanks for your input().  I
didn't think it was raw_input()   :)

But if you want to come round() our property() and object()
then zip() it.  And you'ld better not wait for the locals()
to reload() else we'll slice() you and reduce() you to
hash() ... pow() !

[I hadn't realized how violent Python's __builtins__ could be.]

That took too long() to set() up and enumerate().  I'm
max()ed out on puns, but hey, whatever float()s my boat,
eh?  'Course maybe if I had an intern() type() to appease
my id() I could 'quit'.

Now that that's sorted(), I'll grab my 'license' and a
map() then 'exit' to the golf range() to work on my slice().
If I apply() my self I could compile() my scores, or more
likely just toss them into the circular file().

				Andrew
				dalke@dalkescientific.com

Patrick Scheible wrote:

[SNIP]

> Yes.  NeXTStep didn't have a microkernel.  The Mach kernel didn't get
> changed to a microkernel design until after NeXTStep split off from
> it.

Hmmm, you had better tell these folks they are wrong for starters :

http://www.macos.utah.edu/Documentation/MacOSXClasses/macosxone/unix.html

Do a google for NextStep and Microkernel, it appears to be a very
common understanding/myth...

Cheers,
Rupert

Rob Warnock wrote:

> But as I finished there:
> 
>     Though there were certainly other places where the mc68000's imprecise
>     exceptions left no choice but to blow the offending process away...
> 

Hence the need for the MC68010.

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <ApudnfQdCY-dfavcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
>    rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>+---------------
>>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>>| >+---------------
>>| >
>>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>>| 
>>| Well, not quite :-).  COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
>>| command.  DIRECT became its own program.  To do a directory
>>| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
>>+---------------

>>Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
>>of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
>>That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.

They are not DOS commands, thay are CPM commands that just happened
to report for duty in redmondia.

> IIRC, those verbs didn't show up until after 4S72 of TOPS-10 (it
> wasn't TOPS-10 back then either).  I would also suspect that the PIP
> didn't originate at DEC either.  A lot of those guys did work at MIT
> before they coalasced into a startup company.

All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source file
are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.

> My whole point is that attributing who started it is not as
> interesting as how the "it" flowed through the biz.

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

On Thursday, in article
     <slrncjf52a.oa.amajorel@vulcain.knox.com> amajorel@teezer.fr
     "Andre Majorel" wrote:

> Are you arguing that the stability comes from the API, not from
> the implementation ? If so, why has NT become more stable over
> the years, since its API has not changed ?

I'd like to imagine that it's because there are fewer fuckwits using it;
BICBW....

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
   national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
   software and decent hardware support."

In article <87d613mckn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
   Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <ApudnfQdCY-dfavcRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net>,
>>    rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>><jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>>>+---------------
>>>| rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>>| >| Consider the "PIP" command.
>>>| >+---------------
>>>| >
>>>| >Indeed. And COPY & DEL & DIR, etc.
>>>| 
>>>| Well, not quite :-).  COPY and DELETE called PIP via a CCL
>>>| command.  DIRECT became its own program.  To do a directory
>>>| using PIP required a switch and wasn't a monitor level command.
>>>+---------------
>
>>>Yes, I knew that. What I was trying to convey is that the *names*
>>>of those DOS commands had also been copied from the DEC lineages.
>>>That is, COPY/DEL/DIR rather than cp/rm/ls.
>
>They are not DOS commands, thay are CPM commands that just happened
>to report for duty in redmondia.
>
>> IIRC, those verbs didn't show up until after 4S72 of TOPS-10 (it
>> wasn't TOPS-10 back then either).  I would also suspect that the PIP
>> didn't originate at DEC either.  A lot of those guys did work at MIT
>> before they coalasced into a startup company.
>
>All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source file
>are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.

huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L
to get directories?  And to print a file on the line printer
required the PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR

Sigh!  Substitute those underscores with backarrows.

The point is still that these commands were "created" not
by one OS but by the conglomerate of future bit gods who
were yakking at each other and moving from one OS project
to another OS' project.  Back then there were only a handful
of people who were doing this work.  

Are we suffering from the demise of the thingies we used to
call DECUS when the workers got together instead of the PHBs
and marketeers?

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

> Are we suffering from the demise of the thingies we used to
> call DECUS when the workers got together instead of the PHBs
> and marketeers?

We certainly are.  Self-help meetings of techies have always been
a step-child as far as manglement are concerned.  I could list a few 
that I've been involved in over the years, that have been chipped away
bit by bit by cost-paring management until they finally lost critical 
mass.

But we have the 'net, so it's not all bad.

jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:

> In article <87d613mckn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
>    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:

>>All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source
>>file are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.

> huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
> directories?  And to print a file on the line printer required the
> PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR

My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...

Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.

-- 
Paul Repacholi                               1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001                           Kalamunda.
                                             West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.

On Thursday, in article
     <41371e5c$0$19723$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> jmfbahciv@aol.com
     wrote:

> In article <2mmdj0t6mjgif88en11skbo3n8uiuj46nc@4ax.com>,
>    Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> >MS has been borrowing code from Unix to create a real OS: TCP/IP;
> >NTFS<-ffs; memory mapped files<-mmap.
> 
> All right.  Now I'm mystified.  Why did they have to borrow code
> from Unix?  They already had VMS.  ISTM, VMS had all of the 
> above.

VMS (originally) most decidedly did NOT have either TCP/IP or NFS.
Indeed, it took many years before DEC [sorry, by then it was already
d|i|g|i|t|a|l] had a TCP/IP stack available for VMS --- the dreaded heap
of quivering jelly created by the Eunice idiots.

Before that, people who needed TCP/IP on a Vax used various third-party
solutions, such as the implementations from Carnegie-Mellon (CMU) or
Wollongong universities.  Then, of course, there was what many regarded
as the best TCP/IP stack for VMS, MultiNet from TGV (Two Guys and a VAX).
That product also included a working NFS implementation.

-- 
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
   national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
   software and decent hardware support."

Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
+---------------
| jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
| > directories?  And to print a file on the line printer required the
| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
| 
| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
+---------------

Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]


-Rob

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

In article <OJudnTfixegZJKfcRVn-gA@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>Paul Repacholi  <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>+---------------
>| jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>| > huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
>| > directories?  And to print a file on the line printer required the
>| > PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
>| 
>| My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...
>| Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.
>+---------------
>
>Yes, but... Wasn't COMPIL (at least a simple for of it) introduced
>before or sometime during 4S72? We didn't switch from 4.x to 5.x until
>5.02d (or so) IIRC, and I *thought* we used COMPIL earlier than that.
>[But brain rot gets us all in the end...]

There was a program COMPIL but you had to say 

R COMPIL
FOO.REL_FOO.FOR

(The typo routine in my head just told me I goofed but I don't see it.)

but couldn't say

COMPIL FOO.FOR

I think (and only John Everett can say for sure) that what we
called compile-class commands came with the 5-series monitor.
I wasn't working for DEC then and had no idea about development
evolutions of code and features.

/BAH


Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <87vfeut0at.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
   Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
>
>> In article <87d613mckn.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>,
>>    Paul Repacholi <prep@prep.synonet.com> wrote:
>
>>>All of them where in the 4.x monitir I used. many of the 427 source
>>>file are on Tim's site, so you can have a look in COMTAB and see.
>
>> huh..The why did I have to do TTY:_DT0:/L or LPT:_DT0:/L to get
>> directories?  And to print a file on the line printer required the
>> PIP command LPT:_DSK:FOO.FOR
>
>My bad... I claim bit rot of the grey stuff...

Whew!  Oh, good.  At least I'm not complete nuts.  I don't
good that your brain has rot but good that my brain didn't.
>
>Yes DIR and friends came later, post or part of(?) COMPIL.

Well, I always got confused with the lingo, too.  There was
the program COMPIL and then there were the compile-class
commands which had a little something to do with COMPIL
but not really.  I never did sort out the lingo.

The program COMPIL picked up where and which compiler would
get GETSEGed into your address space to compile your the
program specification you handed it.  If your file had a
non-standard extension, e.g., FOO.BAR, COMPIL had a 
heirarchal list of which compiler to choose to process
the contents of FOO.BAR.  I always liked to feed a FORTRAN
program to COBOL and visa versa just to see if I wreak any
havoc to the compiler and the monitor.

/BAH



Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <20040904.0140.57670snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk
(Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes:

>On Thursday, in article
><slrncjf52a.oa.amajorel@vulcain.knox.com> amajorel@teezer.fr
>"Andre Majorel" wrote:
>
>> Are you arguing that the stability comes from the API, not from
>> the implementation ? If so, why has NT become more stable over
>> the years, since its API has not changed ?
>
>I'd like to imagine that it's because there are fewer fuckwits using
>it; BICBW....

Does this mean that XP is getting less stable?

--
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!

On 07 Sep 04 09:44:24 -0800, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> In article <20040904.0140.57670snz@dsl.co.uk>, bhk@dsl.co.uk
> (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) writes:
>
>> On Thursday, in article
>> <slrncjf52a.oa.amajorel@vulcain.knox.com> amajorel@teezer.fr
>> "Andre Majorel" wrote:
>>
>>> Are you arguing that the stability comes from the API, not from
>>> the implementation ? If so, why has NT become more stable over
>>> the years, since its API has not changed ?
>>
>> I'd like to imagine that it's because there are fewer fuckwits using
>> it; BICBW....
>
> Does this mean that XP is getting less stable?
>
> --
> /~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
> \ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
>  X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
> / \  HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored.  Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
>

As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
Exchange server (email) has always sucked,
you can disengage the windows interface,
the system still wants to warn you on the screen forcing you to have  
access to the screen at all times,
so the function as a server it leaves something to be desired.
I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
As a workstation XP seems OK.
I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on that.
But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
without
a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.

-- 
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/

John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
+---------------
| As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
....
| I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
| As a workstation XP seems OK.
| I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
| Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on that.
| But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
| I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
| without a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.
+---------------

*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
[an old, slow '486]:

    %  uptime
     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
    % 

That's over *20* months!!


-Rob

p.s. I remember the time back in the early 70's (at Emory Univ.) when
we called DEC Field Service to complain that our PDP-10 had an uptime
of over a year. Why were we complaining? Well, that meant that DEC Field
Service had failed to perform scheduled preventive maintenance (which
usually involved at least one power cycle)...  ;-}

-----
Rob Warnock			<rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue			<URL:http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403		(650)572-2607

In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote:
>John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>+---------------
>| As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
>...
>| I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
>| As a workstation XP seems OK.
>| I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
>| Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on that.
>| But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
>| I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
>| without a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.
>+---------------

There you say it all. I consider two of my FreeBSD-boxes unstable
at the moment. I've had to reboot each of them twice in 18 months.
They both run the full complement of apache, sendmail, mysql, Free/SWAN
leafnode and a score of other stuff; and they go into wedged mode. 

Different expectations.

>*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>[an old, slow '486]:
>
>    %  uptime
>     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
>    % 
>
>That's over *20* months!!
>
>
>-Rob
>
>p.s. I remember the time back in the early 70's (at Emory Univ.) when
>we called DEC Field Service to complain that our PDP-10 had an uptime
>of over a year. Why were we complaining? Well, that meant that DEC Field
>Service had failed to perform scheduled preventive maintenance (which
>usually involved at least one power cycle)...  ;-}

I had a customer complaint at Prime framed at their tech dept; it was
about wrapped counters after ~300 days uptime.

-- mrr

In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>+---------------
>| As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
>....
>| I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
>| As a workstation XP seems OK.
>| I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
>| Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on that.
>| But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
>| I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
>| without a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.
>+---------------
>
>*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>[an old, slow '486]:
>
>    %  uptime
>     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
>    % 
>
>That's over *20* months!!

I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.
>
>
>-Rob
>
>p.s. I remember the time back in the early 70's (at Emory Univ.) when
>we called DEC Field Service to complain that our PDP-10 had an uptime
>of over a year. Why were we complaining? Well, that meant that DEC Field
>Service had failed to perform scheduled preventive maintenance (which
>usually involved at least one power cycle)...  ;-}

One?  Had to be two.  FS was supposed to use their service pack
as the system disk, not the customers!!!  I believe that was
true even in 1970.  The dangers of smushing bits was too great.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

On Wed, 08 Sep 04 11:48:36 GMT
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

> In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
>    rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:

> >*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
> >[an old, slow '486]:
> >
> >    %  uptime
> >     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
> >    % 
> >
> >That's over *20* months!!
> 
> I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.

	The Yahoo! server farm ran to very long uptimes last time I had
any details. The reason being that they commission a machine, add it to
the farm and leave it running until it is replaced two or three years
later.

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/

In article <413f049f$0$6914$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
>In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
>   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>>+---------------
>>| As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
>>....
>>| I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
>>| As a workstation XP seems OK.
>>| I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
>>| Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on that.
>>| But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
>>| I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
>>| without a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.
>>+---------------
>>
>>*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>>[an old, slow '486]:
>>
>>    %  uptime
>>     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
>>    % 
>>
>>That's over *20* months!!
>
>I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.
>>
>>
>>-Rob
>>
>>p.s. I remember the time back in the early 70's (at Emory Univ.) when
>>we called DEC Field Service to complain that our PDP-10 had an uptime
>>of over a year. Why were we complaining? Well, that meant that DEC Field
>>Service had failed to perform scheduled preventive maintenance (which
>>usually involved at least one power cycle)...  ;-}
>
>One?  Had to be two.  FS was supposed to use their service pack
>as the system disk, not the customers!!!  I believe that was
>true even in 1970.  The dangers of smushing bits was too great.

But with a PM you had to do a cold start. All the disks had to be 
spun down, filters changed, and they had to spin for an ungodly long
time after the filter change before heads could be enabled again. This
was to bring all the dust that was let loose in the process into the new
filters before heads went to fly over the platters again.

Also power supplies had to be checked for the dreaded capacitor
problems. Tape drives also had these. This was industry-wide 
problems; and news from a few burned UPS'es the last couple of
months tell me that the capacitor problems are still with us.

It was a real accomplishment when we in 1988 could do a full
PM (Prime gear) without shutting down the system. All disks were
mirrored, and all power duplicated, so we shut down half of the
hardware and did PM on that; and took the other half next week. 

SMD filters were used at a quite high rate; even inside well 
filtered rooms. ISTR 6 months was a pretty long interval between PM's. 

-- mrr

In article <20040908192913.67c07e7d.steveo@eircom.net>,
   Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>On Wed, 08 Sep 04 11:48:36 GMT
>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>
>> In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
>>    rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>
>> >*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>> >[an old, slow '486]:
>> >
>> >    %  uptime
>> >     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 
0.00
>> >    % 
>> >
>> >That's over *20* months!!
>> 
>> I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.
>
>	The Yahoo! server farm ran to very long uptimes last time I had
>any details. The reason being that they commission a machine, add it to
>the farm and leave it running until it is replaced two or three years
>later.

Sure.  But regular users of such computing services never get an
uptime report.  Hell, they have no idea how many systems their
own webbit has used, let alone all the code that was executed
to paint that pretty picture on their TTY screen.

I bet, if we start asking, we might even get some bizarre
definitions of uptime.

I do know that the defintion of CPU runtime is disappearing.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

In article <5sjnhc.bb81.ln@via.reistad.priv.no>,
   Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:
>In article <413f049f$0$6914$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>,  <jmfbahciv@aol.com> 
wrote:
>>In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
>>   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>>John Thingstad <john.thingstad@chello.no> wrote:
>>>+---------------
>>>| As you may know XP is not particularly good as a server.
>>>....
>>>| I would go for some Unix implementation (perhaps free-BSD)
>>>| As a workstation XP seems OK.
>>>| I hear a lot of complaints about XP's stability.
>>>| Since I have not administered a XP network, yet, I cant comment on 
that.
>>>| But in my personal experience it is a stable system.
>>>| I frequently let my computer run 24 hrs. a day for more than a month  
>>>| without a need to reboot. So for me it is adequate.
>>>+---------------
>>>
>>>*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>>>[an old, slow '486]:
>>>
>>>    %  uptime
>>>     2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 0.00
>>>    % 
>>>
>>>That's over *20* months!!
>>
>>I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.
>>>
>>>
>>>-Rob
>>>
>>>p.s. I remember the time back in the early 70's (at Emory Univ.) when
>>>we called DEC Field Service to complain that our PDP-10 had an uptime
>>>of over a year. Why were we complaining? Well, that meant that DEC Field
>>>Service had failed to perform scheduled preventive maintenance (which
>>>usually involved at least one power cycle)...  ;-}
>>
>>One?  Had to be two.  FS was supposed to use their service pack
>>as the system disk, not the customers!!!  I believe that was
>>true even in 1970.  The dangers of smushing bits was too great.
>
>But with a PM you had to do a cold start. All the disks had to be 
>spun down, filters changed, and they had to spin for an ungodly long
>time after the filter change before heads could be enabled again. This
>was to bring all the dust that was let loose in the process into the new
>filters before heads went to fly over the platters again.

That's why there was always two boots; one for FS to bring up thier
service pack to run diags; the other one was when the system was
handed back to the customer.

>
>Also power supplies had to be checked for the dreaded capacitor
>problems. Tape drives also had these. This was industry-wide 
>problems; and news from a few burned UPS'es the last couple of
>months tell me that the capacitor problems are still with us.
>
>It was a real accomplishment when we in 1988 could do a full
>PM (Prime gear) without shutting down the system. All disks were
>mirrored, and all power duplicated, so we shut down half of the
>hardware and did PM on that; and took the other half next week.

That's exactly what JMF's and TW's implementation of SMP gave
the customer.  Not only that but a catastrophic hardware failure
no longer brought down the whole system.  What was really amusing
to me is that TW and JMF had no idea what they'ld created.  The
first time I told them that a system would never ever have
to be rebooted, I grew two heads.  OTOH, it was impossible
to convince FS that a PM didn't have to be a system-wide PM.

I don't think we ever got that change permutated throughout the
org. 
>
>SMD filters were used at a quite high rate; even inside well 
>filtered rooms. ISTR 6 months was a pretty long interval between PM's. 

Our FS liked to have PMs done weekly and then a major PM done monthly.
I never had time to learn exactly what the procedures were.  They
were documented and laid out but I don't know what happened to
that info.

/BAH

Subtract a hundred and four for e-mail.

Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
> But with a PM you had to do a cold start. All the disks had to be
> spun down, filters changed, and they had to spin for an ungodly long
> time after the filter change before heads could be enabled
> again. This was to bring all the dust that was let loose in the
> process into the new filters before heads went to fly over the
> platters again.
>
> Also power supplies had to be checked for the dreaded capacitor
> problems. Tape drives also had these. This was industry-wide
> problems; and news from a few burned UPS'es the last couple of
> months tell me that the capacitor problems are still with us.
>
> It was a real accomplishment when we in 1988 could do a full PM
> (Prime gear) without shutting down the system. All disks were
> mirrored, and all power duplicated, so we shut down half of the
> hardware and did PM on that; and took the other half next week.
>
> SMD filters were used at a quite high rate; even inside well
> filtered rooms. ISTR 6 months was a pretty long interval between
> PM's.

360s, 370s, etc differentiated between smp ... which was either
symmetrical multiprocessing or shared memory (multi-)processing
.... and loosely-coupled multiprocessing (clusters).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp

in the 70s, my wife did stint in POK responsible for loosely-coupled
multiprocessing architecture and came up with peer-coupled shared
data
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#shareddata

also in the 70s, i had done a re-org of the virtual memory
infrastructure for vm/cms. part of it was released as something called
discontiguous shared memory ... and other pieces of it was released
as part of the resource manager having to do with page migration
(moving virtual pages between different backing store devices).
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#mmap
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#adcon

in the mid-70s, one of the vm/cms timesharing service bureaus
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#timeshare

was starting to offer 7x24 service to customers around the world; one
of the issues was being able to still schedule PM .... when there
was never a time that there wasn't anybody using the system. they
had already providing support for loosely-coupled, similar to
HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone

for scallability & load balancing. what they did in the mid-70s was to
expand the "page migration" ... to include all control blocks ...  so
that processes could be migrated off one processor complex (in a
loosely-coupled environment) to a different processor complex ...  so
a processor complex could be taken offline for PM.

in the late '80s, we started the high availability, cluster multiprocessing
project:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

of course the airline res system had been doing similar things on 360s
starting in the 60s.

totally random references to airline res systems, tpf, acp, and/or pars:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#29 Mainframes & Unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#17 Old Computers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!))
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#152 Uptime (was Re: Q: S/390 on PowerPC?)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#20 How many Megaflops and when?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#60 Disincentives for MVS & future of MVS systems programmers
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#21 Competitors to SABRE?  Big Iron
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#22 Is a VAX a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems.  Disk history...people forget
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#37 John Mashey's greatest hits
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#45 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#47 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#0 TSS/360
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#9 IBM Doesn't Make Small MP's Anymore
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#2 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of Doom
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#67 Tweaking old computers?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#29 why does wait state exist?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#28 TPF
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#58 AMP  vs  SMP
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#48 InfiniBand Group Sharply, Evenly Divided
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#30 diffence between itanium and alpha
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#30 One Processor is bad?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#32 One Processor is bad?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#37 Lisp Machines
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#2 Fix the shuttle or fly it unmanned
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#3 Ping:  Anne & Lynn Wheeler
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#47 What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003p.html#45 Saturation Design Point
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#24 40th anniversary of IBM System/360 on 7 Apr 2004
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#49 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#50 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#6 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#7 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#35 Computer-oriented license plates
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#44 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004f.html#58 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#14 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

In article <uwtz3trhy.fsf@mail.comcast.net>,
Anne & Lynn Wheeler  <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
>>
>> SMD filters were used at a quite high rate; even inside well
>> filtered rooms. ISTR 6 months was a pretty long interval between
>> PM's.
>
>360s, 370s, etc differentiated between smp ... which was either

smD  the TLA that represents a washing-machine size disk. Mountable. 
  ^  Made impressive head crashes from time to time.

But I won't interfere with this lovely thread drift with lots
of relevant facts. 

>symmetrical multiprocessing or shared memory (multi-)processing
>... and loosely-coupled multiprocessing (clusters).
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#smp
>
>in the 70s, my wife did stint in POK responsible for loosely-coupled
>multiprocessing architecture and came up with peer-coupled shared
>data
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#shareddata
>
>also in the 70s, i had done a re-org of the virtual memory
>infrastructure for vm/cms. part of it was released as something called
>discontiguous shared memory ... and other pieces of it was released
>as part of the resource manager having to do with page migration
>(moving virtual pages between different backing store devices).
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#fairshare
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#wsclock
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#mmap
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#adcon
>
>in the mid-70s, one of the vm/cms timesharing service bureaus
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#timeshare
>
>was starting to offer 7x24 service to customers around the world; one
>of the issues was being able to still schedule PM .... when there
>was never a time that there wasn't anybody using the system. they
>had already providing support for loosely-coupled, similar to
>HONE
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hone
>
>for scallability & load balancing. what they did in the mid-70s was to
>expand the "page migration" ... to include all control blocks ...  so
>that processes could be migrated off one processor complex (in a
>loosely-coupled environment) to a different processor complex ...  so
>a processor complex could be taken offline for PM.
>
>in the late '80s, we started the high availability, cluster multiprocessing
>project:
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
>
>of course the airline res system had been doing similar things on 360s
>starting in the 60s.
>
>totally random references to airline res systems, tpf, acp, and/or pars:
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/96.html#29 Mainframes & Unix
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#17 Old Computers
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#100 Why won't the AS/400 die? Or, It's 1999 why do I have to learn how to use
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#103 IBM 9020 computers used by FAA (was Re: EPO stories (was: HELP IT'S HOT!!!!!))
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#136a checks (was S/390 on PowerPC?)
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/99.html#152 Uptime (was Re: Q: S/390 on PowerPC?)
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#20 How many Megaflops and when?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#61 VM (not VMS or Virtual Machine, the IBM sort)
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000b.html#65 oddly portable machines
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000c.html#60 Disincentives for MVS & future of MVS systems programmers
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#21 Competitors to SABRE?  Big Iron
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#22 Is a VAX a mainframe?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000f.html#20 Competitors to SABRE?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001.html#26 Disk caching and file systems.  Disk history...people forget
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001b.html#37 John Mashey's greatest hits
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001d.html#69 Block oriented I/O over IP
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#2 Block oriented I/O over IP
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#35 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#45 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#46 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#47 The Alpha/IA64 Hybrid
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001g.html#49 Did AT&T offer Unix to Digital Equipment in the 70s?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001j.html#17 I hate Compaq
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#0 TSS/360
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001n.html#3 News IBM loses supercomputer crown
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002c.html#9 IBM Doesn't Make Small MP's Anymore
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#2 Computers in Science Fiction
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002g.html#3 Why are Mainframe Computers really still in use at all?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#12 Why did OSI fail compared with TCP-IP?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#43 IBM doing anything for 50th Anniv?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#63 Hercules and System/390 - do we need it?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#83 HONE
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002j.html#83 Summary: Robots of Doom
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002m.html#67 Tweaking old computers?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#29 why does wait state exist?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002o.html#28 TPF
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002p.html#58 AMP  vs  SMP
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003.html#48 InfiniBand Group Sharply, Evenly Divided
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003c.html#30 diffence between itanium and alpha
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003d.html#67 unix
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#30 One Processor is bad?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#32 One Processor is bad?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003g.html#37 Lisp Machines
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003j.html#2 Fix the shuttle or fly it unmanned
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003k.html#3 Ping:  Anne & Lynn Wheeler
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003n.html#47 What makes a mainframe a mainframe?
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003p.html#45 Saturation Design Point
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#24 40th anniversary of IBM System/360 on 7 Apr 2004
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#49 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004.html#50 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#6 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004b.html#7 Mainframe not a good architecture for interactive workloads
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004c.html#35 Computer-oriented license plates
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#44 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004f.html#58 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004g.html#14 Infiniband - practicalities for small clusters
>
>-- 
>Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

> In article <20040908192913.67c07e7d.steveo@eircom.net>,
>    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 08 Sep 04 11:48:36 GMT
>>jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <p9qdnTnxTYDJR6PcRVn-pw@speakeasy.net>,
>>>   rpw3@rpw3.org (Rob Warnock) wrote:
>>
>>>>*Only* a month?!?  Here's the uptime for one of my FreeBSD boxes
>>>>[an old, slow '486]:
>>>>
>>>>   %  uptime
>>>>    2:44AM  up 630 days, 21:14, 1 user, load averages: 0.06, 0.02, 
> 
> 0.00
> 
>>>>   % 
>>>>
>>>>That's over *20* months!!
>>>
>>>I bet we can measure the youngster's age by the uptimes he boasts.
>>
>>	The Yahoo! server farm ran to very long uptimes last time I had
>>any details. The reason being that they commission a machine, add it to
>>the farm and leave it running until it is replaced two or three years
>>later.
> 
> 
> Sure.  But regular users of such computing services never get an
> uptime report.  Hell, they have no idea how many systems their
> own webbit has used, let alone all the code that was executed
> to paint that pretty picture on their TTY screen.
> 
> I bet, if we start asking, we might even get some bizarre
> definitions of uptime.

Well, there are lies, damn lies and statistics, don't
you know? :)

I have absolutely no idea of the size of Yahoo's "server
farm," but let's assume that it's roughly 100 servers
to make the arithmetic easier.  Let's further assume
that the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is roughly
2000 hours (about 3 months, or about 90 days).

Given these numbers (which are not real, I remind you,
just made up), it is likely that on any given day
one of those servers suffers some kind of failure.
However, one can argue, quite legitimately, that
the service which Yahoo! provides is still "up and
running."  1% of the users may not be able to access
their mail for a few hours, for example, but the Yahoo! is
still running.

> 
> I do know that the defintion of CPU runtime is disappearing.
> 

Not everywhere, Steve.  There are still shops
which do measure CPU time for transactions
and base their sizing computations on that.
The better ones actually start from the requirements
and derive the CPU budget, Disk I/O budget, Lan budget, etc.
for each transaction based on that!

(Examples: "Hmmm... an in-memory dbms access takes about 150 usec,
my dbms schema requires 12 reads for this query.  That's
1.8 msec.  My CPU budget is 750 usec.  Maybe I should
redesign something here?" ... or ... "Hmm... my CPU
budget is 3 ms. for this transaction, and I'm constrained
to use a particular XML parser.  Time to measure.  Whoops,
parsing takes around 6 ms for the average message on
my box.  Maybe we shouldn't be using this particular
parser just because it's cheap?  Or maybe we throw
more hardware at the problem and bid twice the number
of servers if we can't find a better XML parser.")

-- 
"It is impossible to make anything foolproof
because fools are so ingenious"
  - A. Bloch

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:21:15 GMT
Nick Landsberg <SPAMhukolauTRAP@SPAMworldnetTRAP.att.net> wrote:

> jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In article <20040908192913.67c07e7d.steveo@eircom.net>,
> >    Steve O'Hara-Smith <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > 
> >>	The Yahoo! server farm ran to very long uptimes last time I had
> >>any details. The reason being that they commission a machine, add it to
> >>the farm and leave it running until it is replaced two or three years
> >>later.
> > 
> > Sure.  But regular users of such computing services never get an
> > uptime report.  Hell, they have no idea how many systems their
> > own webbit has used, let alone all the code that was executed
> > to paint that pretty picture on their TTY screen.
> > 
> > I bet, if we start asking, we might even get some bizarre
> > definitions of uptime.
> 
> Well, there are lies, damn lies and statistics, don't
> you know? :)
> 
> I have absolutely no idea of the size of Yahoo's "server
> farm," but let's assume that it's roughly 100 servers
> to make the arithmetic easier.  Let's further assume
> that the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) is roughly
> 2000 hours (about 3 months, or about 90 days).
> 
> Given these numbers (which are not real, I remind you,
> just made up), it is likely that on any given day
> one of those servers suffers some kind of failure.
> However, one can argue, quite legitimately, that
> the service which Yahoo! provides is still "up and
> running."  1% of the users may not be able to access
> their mail for a few hours, for example, but the Yahoo! is
> still running.

	Erm in this case the farm is a search engine service, if one of
the machines goes down then the searching gets a bit slower for everyone.
At any rate the report from inside Yahoo! was that they considered it
normal for a machine to run uninterrupted for a couple of years and
then get replaced.

> > I do know that the defintion of CPU runtime is disappearing.
> > 
> 
> Not everywhere, Steve.  There are still shops

	That's /BAH you're responding to there :)

-- 
C:>WIN                                      |   Directable Mirror Arrays
The computer obeys and wins.                | A better way to focus the sun
You lose and Bill collects.                 |    licences available see
                                            |    http://www.sohara.org/

Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
> smD  the TLA that represents a washing-machine size disk. Mountable. 
>   ^  Made impressive head crashes from time to time.
>
> But I won't interfere with this lovely thread drift with lots
> of relevant facts. 

the first disks i played with at the univ. were 2311s on 360/30; they
were individual, top-loading, with mountable disk packs; 2311 disk
pack was a little over 7mbytes. didn't find picture of 2311 ... but
this picture of 1311 were similar ... the lid of the unit was released
and raised (something like auto engine hood)
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_1311.html

the next were 2314s that came with 360/67. it was long single unit
with drive drawers that slid out. top & bottom row with 9 drives.
drives had addressing plugs .... eight plus a spare. a 2314 pack could
be mounted on the spare drive, spun up .... and then the addressing
plug pop'ed from an active unit and put in the spare drive. it reduced
the elapsed time that the system saw unavailable drive (time to power
off a drive, open the drawer, remove a pack, place in new pack, close
drawer, power up the drive). 2314 pack was about 29 mbytes. picture
of 2314 cabinet
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_2314.html


the next were the 3330s ... long cabinet unit looked similar to 2314
.... but with only 8 drawers (instead of 9). 3330-i pack had 100mbytes
.... later 3330-ii pack had 200mbytes. picutre of 3330 unit ... the three
cloaded plastic units on top of the unit were used to remove disk pack
and hold it.
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3330.html

close up of 3330 disk pack in its storage case ... also has picture
of 3850 tape cartridges
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3850B.html

misc. other storage pictures:
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_photo.html

next big change was 3380 drives with totally enclosed, non-mountable
cabinet.

old posting on various speeds and feeds
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#8 3330 disk drives

and some more old performance data
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#10 virtual memory

i had written a report that relative disk system performance had
declined by a factor of ten times over a period of 10-15 years.  the
disk division assigned their performance group to refute the
claim. they looked at it for a couple of months and concluded that i
had somewhat understated the relative system performance decline
.... that it was actually more. the issue was that other system
components had increased in performance by 40-50 times ... while disks
had only increased in performance by 4-5 times ... making relative
disk system performance 1/10th what it had been. misc. past posts
about the gpd performance group looking at the relative system
performance issue:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#40 MVS History (all parts)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002h.html#29 Computers in Science Fiction
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002i.html#18 AS/400 and MVS - clarification please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002k.html#22 Vnet : Unbelievable
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002n.html#63 Help me find pics of a UNIVAC please
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#3 IBM 360 memory
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004e.html#16 Paging query - progress

it was possibly one of the things contributing to disk divisionproviding
funding for the group up in berkeley ... misc. references
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002e.html#4 Mainframers: Take back the light (spotlight, that is)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002l.html#47 Do any architectures use instruction count instead of timer
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004d.html#29 cheaper low quality drives

i use to wander around bldgs 14 & 15 and eventually worked on redoing
kernel software for their use. misc. past posts about disk engineering
and product test labs:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#disk

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

In article <ullfinq1o.fsf@mail.comcast.net>,
Anne & Lynn Wheeler  <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
>> smD  the TLA that represents a washing-machine size disk. Mountable. 
>>   ^  Made impressive head crashes from time to time.
>>
>> But I won't interfere with this lovely thread drift with lots
>> of relevant facts. 
>
>the first disks i played with at the univ. were 2311s on 360/30; they
>were individual, top-loading, with mountable disk packs; 2311 disk
>pack was a little over 7mbytes. didn't find picture of 2311 ... but
>this picture of 1311 were similar ... the lid of the unit was released
>and raised (something like auto engine hood)
>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_1311.html
>
>the next were 2314s that came with 360/67. it was long single unit
>with drive drawers that slid out. top & bottom row with 9 drives.
>drives had addressing plugs .... eight plus a spare. a 2314 pack could
>be mounted on the spare drive, spun up .... and then the addressing
>plug pop'ed from an active unit and put in the spare drive. it reduced
>the elapsed time that the system saw unavailable drive (time to power
>off a drive, open the drawer, remove a pack, place in new pack, close
>drawer, power up the drive). 2314 pack was about 29 mbytes. picture
>of 2314 cabinet
>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_2314.html
>
>
>the next were the 3330s ... long cabinet unit looked similar to 2314
>... but with only 8 drawers (instead of 9). 3330-i pack had 100mbytes
>... later 3330-ii pack had 200mbytes. picutre of 3330 unit ... the three
>cloaded plastic units on top of the unit were used to remove disk pack
>and hold it.
>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3330.html

These are the IBM gear that most resemble SMB equipment. SMD's were
the BUNCH answer to DEC's RP04/5/6 and IBM's 3330. Originally made
by CDC; others also produced them. NCR and Fujitsu come to mind.

Originally existed as 80-megabyte, pretty light units (30 kg); 
later expanded to 160-megabyte. Then the real washing machines 
turned up; 300 mb (315 unformatted megabytes). Originally 4 on a chain, 
15 mbit analogue readout (MFM ISTR; they never tried RLL). 

These were a mainstay among the smaller mini vendors from approx 1974
to the advent of winchesters around a decade later. The earliest 
winchesters made exact hardware replicas of the SMD. Then the
spec was expanded and became ESMD, but ESMD was never as robustly
standardized. Sacrifices of goats, PHBs and undergraduates was needed
to stabelize long ESMD chains.

>close up of 3330 disk pack in its storage case ... also has picture
>of 3850 tape cartridges
>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3850B.html
>
>misc. other storage pictures:
>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_photo.html
>
>next big change was 3380 drives with totally enclosed, non-mountable
>cabinet.
>
>old posting on various speeds and feeds
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#8 3330 disk drives
>
>and some more old performance data
>http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#10 virtual memory
>
>i had written a report that relative disk system performance had
>declined by a factor of ten times over a period of 10-15 years.  the
>disk division assigned their performance group to refute the
>claim. they looked at it for a couple of months and concluded that i
>had somewhat understated the relative system performance decline
>... that it was actually more. the issue was that other system
>components had increased in performance by 40-50 times ... while disks
>had only increased in performance by 4-5 times ... making relative
>disk system performance 1/10th what it had been. misc. past posts
>about the gpd performance group looking at the relative system
>performance issue:

And we are still on that line. 

Nowadays most heavy production database data really stays in memory; 
with the disk as a backup medium. 

-- mrr

Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:
> These are the IBM gear that most resemble SMB equipment. SMD's were
> the BUNCH answer to DEC's RP04/5/6 and IBM's 3330. Originally made
> by CDC; others also produced them. NCR and Fujitsu come to mind.
>
> Originally existed as 80-megabyte, pretty light units (30 kg); later
> expanded to 160-megabyte. Then the real washing machines turned up;
> 300 mb (315 unformatted megabytes). Originally 4 on a chain, 15 mbit
> analogue readout (MFM ISTR; they never tried RLL).
>
> These were a mainstay among the smaller mini vendors from approx
> 1974 to the advent of winchesters around a decade later. The
> earliest winchesters made exact hardware replicas of the SMD. Then
> the spec was expanded and became ESMD, but ESMD was never as
> robustly standardized. Sacrifices of goats, PHBs and undergraduates
> was needed to stabelize long ESMD chains.

some number of the senior disk engineers left in the late '60s and
early '70s .... fueling the shugart, seagate, memorex, cdc, etc disk
efforts. in fact, the excuse given (later half 70s) for dragging me
into bldg. 14 disk engineering conference calls with the pok
cpu&channel engineers was that so many of the senior disk engineers
(that were familiar with the channel interface) had left.

random disk history URLs from around the web:
http://www.old-computers.com/history/detail.asp?n=51&t=2
http://www.computerhistory.org/events/lectures/shugart_09052002/shugart/
http://www.logicsmith.com/hdhistory.html
http://www.thetech.org/exhibits/online/revolution/shugart/i_a.html
http://www.disktrend.com/disk3.htm

search engine even turns up one of my posts that somebody appears
to be shadowing at some other site:
http://public.planetmirror.com/pub/lynn/2002.html#17
of course the original
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002.html#17

in the previous posting
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2004l.html#12
this reference
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#8
also gave the speeds and feeds for 3350 (including 317mbyte capacity).

the 1970s washing machines were the 3340s & 3350s ... but the 3350s
enclosed and not removable/mountable; 3340s .... which had
removable/mountable packs .... included the head assemble & platters
completely enclosed.

3340 (winchester) reference, picture includes removable assembly on
top of drives ("3348 data module"):
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3340.html
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3340b.html

picture of row of 3350 drives is similar to that of 3340s ... except
the 3350 packs weren't removable and had much larger capacity
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3350.html

postings reference product code names:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001l.html#53 mainframe question
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003b.html#7 Disk drives as commodities. Was Re: Yamhill

3340-35 was code named Winchester and as per the IBM 3340 ULR began shipping
to customers november, 1973.

we had a joke when the 3380s were introduced about filling them
completely full. if you converted an installation with say 32 3350
drives .... to 16 3380s (sufficient to hold 32-3350 drives worth of
data, 10gbytes) ...  you could have worse performance ... while 3380s
were faster than 3350s, there weren't twice as fast. the proposal was
to have a special microcode load for the 3880 controller .... which
would only support half of a 3380 disk drive. There were a number of
customer people (mostly technies) at share which thought it would be a
good idea ... and furthermore that ibm should price these half-sized
3380s higher than full-sized 3380s (to make the customer exectives
feel like they were getting something special). They would be called
"fast" 3380s (because avg. seek only involved half as many cylindes)
and it was important that the limitation be built into the hardware
and be priced higher. It was recognized that installations could
create their own "fast" 3380s ... just by judicious allocation of data
and no special microcode. However, it was pretty readily acknowledged
that w/o the hardware enforced restrictions, that there were all sorts
of people that populate datacenters that would be unable to control
themselves and fully allocated each 3380.


-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

somewhat thread drift between ssa disk storage
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/95.html#13 SSA

ha/cmp
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp

and electronic commerce
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn2
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/aadsm5.htm#asrn3

-- 
Anne & Lynn Wheeler | http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:08:58 +0200 in alt.folklore.computers, Morten
Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> wrote:

>In article <ullfinq1o.fsf@mail.comcast.net>,
>Anne & Lynn Wheeler  <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
>>Morten Reistad <firstname@lastname.pr1v.n0> writes:

>>the next were the 3330s ... long cabinet unit looked similar to 2314
>>... but with only 8 drawers (instead of 9). 3330-i pack had 100mbytes
>>... later 3330-ii pack had 200mbytes. picutre of 3330 unit ... the three
>>cloaded plastic units on top of the unit were used to remove disk pack
>>and hold it.
>>http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_PH3330.html
>
>These are the IBM gear that most resemble SMB equipment. SMD's were
>the BUNCH answer to DEC's RP04/5/6 and IBM's 3330. Originally made
>by CDC; others also produced them. NCR and Fujitsu come to mind.

ISTR RP series were Memorex drives; RM series were CDC drives; the
latter were more reliable than the former. 

-- 
Thanks. Take care, Brian Inglis 	Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Brian.Inglis@CSi.com 	(Brian[dot]Inglis{at}SystematicSW[dot]ab[dot]ca)
    fake address		use address above to reply

In article <%T%Yc.29567$Es2.11957889@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>,
 "John W. Kennedy" <jwkenne@attglobal.net> wrote:

> Andre Majorel wrote:
> > On 2004-08-31, Brian Inglis <Brian.Inglis@SystematicSW.Invalid> wrote:
> > 
> >>On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 01:12:55 +0000 (UTC) in alt.folklore.computers,
> >>Andre Majorel <amajorel@teezer.fr> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>On 2004-08-30, Antony Sequeira <usemyfullname@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Windows (MS) is not 'Unixism'?
> >>>
> >>>If by unixism, you mean any operating system that has a
> >>>hierarchical filesystem and byte stream files, yes. But that
> >>>would include quite a few other non-Unix operating systems,
> >>>including Mac OS 9, Prologue and probably everything else this
> >>>side of CP/M (DOS 1.x shall be deemed to be CP/M).
> >>
> >>DOS 2.x+ shall be deemed to be CP/M+! 
> > 
> > 
> > Wasn't it in version 2 that they added directories and
> > Unix-style file handles ?
> 
> Yes, and also a single-process pipe emulator.  Ever since 2.0, MS has 
> been trying to turn MS-DOS (later, Windows) into a Unix clone.

And they got beat to Unixhood  (or UnixDoom) by Apple.

-- 
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.

In article <877jrcjy1n.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com>,
 Pascal Bourguignon <spam@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> "John Thingstad" <john.thingstad@chello.no> writes:
> > Note the Mac OS 10 / Darwin uses a unix kernel because of all the
> > problems  with
> > interoperabillity OS 9 had with talking to Windows and Unix boxes.
> 
> No that's not the reason. The reason is ONLY because of the lack of
> virtual memory management (with separation of addressing spaces for
> processes) in MacOS.  That's the one error in design in MacOS I
> identified in version 1.0 that they've dragged all along for 20
> years. (And I bet that if they did not make it, AAPL would be $50-$80
> now, and they'd have at least 40%-50% of market share).  Instead,
> they've wasted resources, CEOs and CTOs for 10 years before the NeXT
> take over.

NeXT took over Apple. Yes, that is the way it was except for the fiscal 
realities.

-- 
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.

Patrick,

I maintain the web page that Rupert mentions in responce to your message
about Nextstep and Mach. 
(http://www.macos.utah.edu/Documentation/MacOSXClasses/macosxone/unix.html)

I'm curious to learn more about the development of Mach and its use in
Nextstep.  Can you point me to your sources -- preferably online so I can
put them in the Bibliography section -- especially those that mention when
Mach was turned into a Microkernel?