f



Why do Java apps insist on announcing that they are Java apps?

Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web applets
(like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps as
well.

(Note: The actual balloon message is "Java(TM) 2 Platform - Visit us
for more information at: http://www.java.com".)

So annoying.  Whenever I see that messaage come up I think to myself,
"Yeah?  Well who gives a damn," and immediately dismiss it.  Does any
other language or its VM insist on announcing its presence?  I've run
apps written in C, C++, C#, Lisp (compiled), Objective C, and VB and
none of them felt the need to announce what language they were written
in.  This is yet another reason that Java sucks on the desktop.  Java
wants its apps to be seen as some kind of "special" app to the user,
when all this behavior does is remind the user that the app is not a
first class citizen as far as the underlying OS platform is concerned.

0
Super
2/23/2005 7:02:19 AM
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"Super Spinner" <pepesmythe@hotmail.com> scribbled on the stall wall:
> Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
> stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
> balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
> you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web applets
> (like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps as
> well.

you know what happens when you "assume", right?

In short, no, this isn't the normal behavior of java.  What release are
you using?  Up thru 1.4.x I haven't seen the behavior you mention.

java classname

from a dos-box should simply instantiate the java class without any
special bells and whistles.

If 1.5 has added the behavior you are seeing then there is most probably
a controlpanel option to disable that behavior.

Of course, since you are using windoze, all bets are off...



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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0
noone
2/23/2005 7:16:51 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
> stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
> balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
> you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web applets
> (like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps as
> well.

No, it doesn't. In fact, unless it invokes some native api call, Java has no 
means of putting an icon in a system tray. The icon is put there by a _plugin_ 
of a particular _browser_.

Ergo, there are a couple of solutions:
1. Tell the plugin not to show the icon.
2. Use some "friendlier" browser.

> (Note: The actual balloon message is "Java(TM) 2 Platform - Visit us
> for more information at: http://www.java.com".)
> 
> So annoying.  Whenever I see that messaage come up I think to myself,
> "Yeah?  Well who gives a damn," and immediately dismiss it.  Does any
> other language or its VM insist on announcing its presence?  I've run
> apps written in C, C++, C#, Lisp (compiled), Objective C, and VB and
> none of them felt the need to announce what language they were written
> in.  This is yet another reason that Java sucks on the desktop.

Nah, it's not Java. It's your computer (il)literacy. Which is nothing to be 
ashamed of, btw. Nobody was born knowledgeable. There is, however, an attitude 
issue. Yours is very bad.

 > Java
> wants its apps to be seen as some kind of "special" app to the user,
> when all this behavior does is remind the user that the app is not a
> first class citizen as far as the underlying OS platform is concerned.
0
Eltee
2/23/2005 9:07:50 AM
"Super Spinner" <pepesmythe@hotmail.com> writes:

> Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
> stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
> balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
> you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web applets
> (like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps as
> well.

Web applets are to be treated as untrusted.  The "Wheeee!!!" message
(different from the message I get; I like yours better) alerts you that
the window about to pop up came to you from the web, in case it's a
dialog box that says, "Workstation has been locked.  Please enter the
administrator password" or something like that.

Desktop apps are implicitly trusted, so you won't get the same warning.

-- 

http://ourdoings.com/         Let your digital photos organize themselves.
                              Sign up today for a 7-day free trial.
0
Bruce
2/23/2005 2:24:02 PM
So you're saying that whenever IE loads Sun's Java VM plugin that it's
Sun's plugin (rather than the VM itself) that puts the icon in the
system tray and announces itself to the user?  It's still Sun that's
billboarding Java to the user as if the user gives a damn.  But that's
good that doesn't happen for desktop apps.

0
Super
2/23/2005 9:21:48 PM
Super Spinner schreef:
> So you're saying that whenever IE loads Sun's Java VM plugin that it's
> Sun's plugin (rather than the VM itself) that puts the icon in the
> system tray and announces itself to the user?  It's still Sun that's
> billboarding Java to the user as if the user gives a damn.  But that's
> good that doesn't happen for desktop apps.
> 

As you *may* have noticed, other plugins like realplayer and quicktime 
put an icon in the systemtray.
Only the Java plugin has the advantage it won't stay in memory when you 
close the browser.
0
Gerbrand
2/23/2005 10:13:11 PM
Super Spinner wrote:
> So you're saying that whenever IE loads Sun's Java VM plugin that it's
> Sun's plugin (rather than the VM itself) that puts the icon in the
> system tray and announces itself to the user?  It's still Sun that's
> billboarding Java to the user as if the user gives a damn.

Erm... Spinner, if you don't give a damn, just uninstall the whole JVM and be 
done with it. In fact, uninstall everything with Sun or Java in their names, 
while you're at it. And live happily ever after.

Or...

....install a better browser (like Opera for example) which doesn't even need the 
plugin per se. It just needs the JVM. This way you're not stuck with Sun's if 
you hate it so much. You can install IBM's for example. Or somebody elses.

 > But that's
> good that doesn't happen for desktop apps.
0
Eltee
2/24/2005 11:15:25 AM
LOL
I love how you javadvocates take such umbrage at *any* criticism of
your precious, flawed, OOP language.  Java is not perfect, and is not
above criticism.  Why should I switch browsers to get around poor
behaviour of SUN's plugin?

0
Super
2/26/2005 2:01:36 AM
Einstein, it's not the system tray icon that's the issue.  It's that
the system tray applet pops up a message balloon announcing itself when
the plugin is loaded, and directs the user to go to http://www.java.com
for more info.  Quicktime and Real don't do this.  No other plugin that
I know does this.  Sun wants to make sure that the user knows that the
web applet is a java applet with its intrusive message balloon.  No
wonder Flash all but eliminated Java from web.

0
Super
2/26/2005 3:01:01 AM
Super Spinner schreef:
> Einstein, it's not the system tray icon that's the issue.  It's that
> the system tray applet pops up a message balloon announcing itself when
> the plugin is loaded, and directs the user to go to http://www.java.com
> for more info.  Quicktime and Real don't do this.  No other plugin that
> I know does this.  Sun wants to make sure that the user knows that the
> web applet is a java applet with its intrusive message balloon.  No
> wonder Flash all but eliminated Java from web.
> 

I can't recall any message balloon. The only way I detect an website 
uses applets, is by looking in the systemtray.

Maybe the plugin has an intelligence filter ;-)
0
Gerbrand
2/26/2005 12:42:20 PM
Super Spinner wrote:
> Einstein, it's not the system tray icon that's the issue.  It's that
> the system tray applet pops up a message balloon announcing itself when
> the plugin is loaded, and directs the user to go to http://www.java.com
> for more info.  Quicktime and Real don't do this.  No other plugin that
> I know does this.  Sun wants to make sure that the user knows that the
> web applet is a java applet with its intrusive message balloon.  No
> wonder Flash all but eliminated Java from web.
> 

The message ballon is actually an unintended Public Service Announcement 
to the user.  It tells him why his computer is suddenly so sluggish, and 
the program he's using is so substandard.
0
JTK
2/26/2005 7:23:40 PM
In comp.lang.java.advocacy, Super Spinner
<pepesmythe@hotmail.com>
 wrote
on 25 Feb 2005 18:01:36 -0800
<1109383296.447754.154940@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>:
> LOL
> I love how you javadvocates take such umbrage at *any* criticism of
> your precious, flawed, OOP language.  Java is not perfect, and is not
> above criticism.  Why should I switch browsers to get around poor
> behaviour of SUN's plugin?
>

Pedant point: it's not an OOP language, at least, not a
pure one.  In fact, the JVM appears fairly conventional,
with the possible exception of being equipped with some
safeguards and fetching data elements from stack a la
Forth as opposed to using registers.

Java itself is C++ without the pointers.  A true OOP
language would be more along the lines of Smalltalk,
as one can:

[1] add and change methods after the class has been defined.
    Even Java with BCEL doesn't quite make it.

[2] allow for true template compilation.  C++ has that now;
    Java 1.5's bastardized version looks more like an old
    implementation that does things like:

    class VectorBase
    {
    private:
        void ** realData;
        int nRealData;
        int aRealData;
        ...
        
    public:
        VectorBase() : ... {}
        VectorBase(VectorBase const &) : ... {}
        ...

    protected:
        void * get(unsigned idx) { return realData[idx]; }

    };

    template <typename T> Vector : public VectorBase {
    public:
        T & operator[](unsigned idx) { return *(T*)get(idx); }
        ...
    };

    C++ abandoned this line of thinking long ago.  (Disclaimer:
    I don't have 1.5 so can't say precisely how it generates code.
    From what I've heard, it's not all that innovative internally.)

    This is not to say C++ (or, for that matter, C#) does it
    right -- in fact, C++ is a very picky language; Java
    at least doesn't have to worry quite as much regarding
    freed pointers.  For its part Smalltalk got so fragmented
    Java surpassed it in sheer numbers.

[3] treat numbers as true objects, which includes methods, polymorphism,
    and addition and changing of methods after class
    definition/compilation.  Java made what looks an awful lot like
    an engineering compromise, allowing for arguments that are
    primitives (int) as opposed to objects (Integer).  The
    dichotomy leads to some weird distortions, especially during
    array handling and introspection, and one has to watch out for
    such things as Integer.class versus Integer.TYPE (yes, they're
    different!).

[4] treat arrays as true objects as well.  Java comes close, although
    the notion of a.length is a bit grating (shouldn't they have
    used a.length() or a.size() instead?).

[5] allow for the dynamic generation of programs.  Java apparently
    does allow for this (otherwise BCEL wouldn't be portable)
    but one would think it should be simpler.

[6] Threading in Java is a bit of a mess.  Not that C++ is any better;
    in fact C++ is far worse.  I don't know about C# but hold little
    hope for its threading model, either.  Perhaps the real culprit
    is in the allowing of more than one singleton (static).
    Can one prove that a program won't hang?

I'm not sure about such things as enums, standardizing on
one widget model (Java now has three: AWT, Swing, and SWT)
or the integration of Java with XML (XML is only a means
to an end anyway; it's a nice if very inefficient way
of standardizing communications) and I do like the idea
of JNLP, but that's not really part of Java proper.  Nor
am I entirely certain about whether such things as

    Cereal a[] = new Cereal[10];

    a[5] = new Cereal();
    a[5].setChewability("crunchy");
    B.arrayMethod(a);
    System.out.println(a[5].getChewability());

should always print out "crunchy" or not -- or if the
a[5] assignment should be even necessary; in C++ it's
not unless one declares

    Cereal (*a[10]);

as opposed to

    Cereal a[10]; .

Another question along similar lines might be rendered:

    Cereal a = new Cereal();
    a.setChewability("crunchy");
    B.objectMethod(a);
    System.out.println(a.getChewability());

which is of course a variant of call-by-value vs. call-by-reference.
Java allows B.objectMethod() and B.arrayMethod() to modify
a and a[5] respectively so that a.getChewability() and
a[5].getChewability() are no longer "crunchy".  This can't
be good for provability of programs -- and then there's
the a.getChewability() == "crunchy" issue, which even in Java
looks a lot like a simple pointer comparison.
(a.getChewability().equals("crunchy") is a slightly more
involved comparison which at least looks at the two *objects*.)

Admittedly, it's an improvement over C++, which allows, among
other things:

    Cereal *a = new Cereal;

which merely leaks if one's not careful, or

    Cereal a0;
    Cereal *a = &a0;

which allows for some freakish bugs if a is
exported outside of the routine,
or the heinous construct

    Cereal *a = (Cereal *) 0x11223344;

which should be very carefully documented, if not taken out and shot on
sight.

And then there's

    Cereal *a = new Cereal;

    a->setChewability("crunchy");
    b.pointerReferenceMethod(a);
    std::cout << a->getChewability() << std::endl;

where b is an instance of OtherClass with a method
OtherClass::pointerReferenceMethod(Cereal *& param); .

And then there's the C++ism:

    Cereal *a = new Cereal;
    a[5] = Kelloggs::cornPops();

which will, if one is lucky, just crash with a recognizable traceback.

There is admittedly the problem of G�del's Theorem, which can
be mangled in this context as "any sufficiently rich programming
environment can produce unprovably unpredictable results". :-)
Or some such.  How one gets around that limitation, I for one
don't know -- but Java could be better.

Perhaps it will get better in 1.6 -- or we'll simply replace it
with something that *is* better.  At least one can work with
Java, but I for one could work with C++.  I'm not sure if I can
work with Smalltalk, but that's mostly because I've not been
required to in my employment.

And all of this still beats an abacus, at least for a
large subset of problems.. :-)

-- 
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
It's still legal to go .sigless.
0
The
2/27/2005 3:00:03 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
> stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
> balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
> you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web
applets
> (like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps
as
> well.
>
> (Note: The actual balloon message is "Java(TM) 2 Platform - Visit us
> for more information at: http://www.java.com".)
>
> So annoying.  Whenever I see that messaage come up I think to myself,
> "Yeah?  Well who gives a damn," and immediately dismiss it.  Does any
> other language or its VM insist on announcing its presence?  I've run
> apps written in C, C++, C#, Lisp (compiled), Objective C, and VB and
> none of them felt the need to announce what language they were
written
> in.  This is yet another reason that Java sucks on the desktop.  Java
> wants its apps to be seen as some kind of "special" app to the user,
> when all this behavior does is remind the user that the app is not a
> first class citizen as far as the underlying OS platform is
concerned.

DOS Batch. It always pops up an ugly console window (and > NULL doesn't
work!).

0
Aquila
2/27/2005 5:33:12 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> Why is it that when one runs a Java app (on Windows, at least), the
> stupid and annoying Sun Java2 system tray applet pops up a message
> balloon saying, "Wheeee!!!  You've just started a Java app!!  Aren't
> you lucky and aren't I special?!?!?!"  I see this with java web
applets
> (like chatroom apps), and I assume it happens for Java desktop apps
as
> well.
>
> (Note: The actual balloon message is "Java(TM) 2 Platform - Visit us
> for more information at: http://www.java.com".)
>
> So annoying.  Whenever I see that messaage come up I think to myself,
> "Yeah?  Well who gives a damn," and immediately dismiss it.  Does any
> other language or its VM insist on announcing its presence?  I've run
> apps written in C, C++, C#, Lisp (compiled), Objective C, and VB and
> none of them felt the need to announce what language they were
written
> in.  This is yet another reason that Java sucks on the desktop.  Java
> wants its apps to be seen as some kind of "special" app to the user,
> when all this behavior does is remind the user that the app is not a
> first class citizen as far as the underlying OS platform is
concerned.

DOS Batch. It always pops up an ugly console window (and > NUL doesn't
work!).

0
Aquila
2/27/2005 5:33:18 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> LOL
> I love how you javadvocates take such umbrage at *any* criticism of
> your precious, flawed, OOP language.

You call FUD criticism?

 > Java is not perfect, and is not
> above criticism.  

Of course not. However, then you should criticise Java, not _a_ (particular) 
plugin's "poor behaviour".

 > Why should I switch browsers to get around poor
> behaviour of SUN's plugin?

Maybe you didn't understand me, Spinner. You have a couple of choices: either 
you don't install plugins that behave poorly or use browsers that don't need a 
plugin. I mean, it's your machine. Why did you install Sun's plugin in the first 
place? Uninstall it and install somebody elses.
0
Eltee
2/27/2005 4:28:06 PM
Super Spinner wrote:

> Einstein, it's not the system tray icon that's the issue.  It's that
> the system tray applet pops up a message balloon announcing itself when
> the plugin is loaded, 

Well then, Spinner, as I don't see such behaviour on my machine, would you tell 
us, please, what's your configuration (versions + settings):
1. OS?
2. Browser?
3. JVM? Plugin?

 > and directs the user to go to http://www.java.com
> for more info.  Quicktime and Real don't do this.

Erm ... no. Quicktime pops up a nagging dialog asking to register (perhaps 
later) every time it's started. And Real pops up news and/or messages when you 
least expect it. But I guess that's not annoying, huh?

 > No other plugin that
> I know does this.

Really? How many plugins do you actually know? Let's have a list, please.

 > Sun wants to make sure that the user knows that the
> web applet is a java applet with its intrusive message balloon.  No
> wonder Flash all but eliminated Java from web. 

Flash did that only because of faster start-up times. Which is understandable of 
course.
0
Eltee
2/27/2005 4:40:13 PM
I'm using Windows XP SP2, both Home and Professional editions.

I'm using IE and Firefox as the browsers (the same thing happens with
both).

I'm using Sun's "Java(TM) Plug-In 1.4.2", with the "Java(TM) 2 Runtime
Environment, Standard Edition 1.4.2"; "Default Virtual Machine Version
1.4.2-b28".

0
Super
2/28/2005 9:06:30 PM
"Super Spinner" <pepesmythe@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1109624790.450202.326900@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com: 

> I'm using Windows XP SP2, both Home and Professional editions.
> 
> I'm using IE and Firefox as the browsers (the same thing happens
> with both).
> 
> I'm using Sun's "Java(TM) Plug-In 1.4.2", with the "Java(TM) 2
> Runtime Environment, Standard Edition 1.4.2"; "Default Virtual
> Machine Version 1.4.2-b28".

Have you tried a configuration of your computer? Something like 
clicking on few options and looking at results. 
0
Raghar
3/1/2005 1:03:55 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> I'm using Windows XP SP2, both Home and Professional editions.
> 
> I'm using IE and Firefox as the browsers (the same thing happens with
> both).
> 
> I'm using Sun's "Java(TM) Plug-In 1.4.2", with the "Java(TM) 2 Runtime
> Environment, Standard Edition 1.4.2"; "Default Virtual Machine Version
> 1.4.2-b28".

Strange. Not that I remember having a bubble in 1.4, but if there is one, Sun 
must've gotten rid of it in 1.5, because I don't see it. Could you try out 1.5?
0
Eltee
3/1/2005 8:13:29 AM
I'll check the plugin's control panel to see if there are any settings
regarding the message balloon.

The Java environment that I'm using (both the VM and the plugin) was
pre-installed by Dell (both my laptop and desktop computers).  Maybe
part of Sun's deal with Dell to pre-install Java was that it would be
installed such that the message balloon would pop up whenever the
plugin is loaded.

0
Super
3/1/2005 8:01:39 PM
On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:40:13 +0100, Eltee <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Flash did that only because of faster start-up times. Which is understandable of 
>course.

this is completely wrong, flash did it because
- the plugin is extremely small compared to the java bloat
- it is very easy to install, for most users (which use MSIE on WIN)
- it is also easier to start producing content with it compared to
java
- it was aimed at graphic artists (which also produce web content)
- it simply worked !
0
Matthias
3/2/2005 9:08:08 AM
On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:08:08 +0100, Matthias <mylists@REM0VEgmx.ch>
wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:40:13 +0100, Eltee <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Flash did that only because of faster start-up times. Which is understandable of 
>>course.
>
>this is completely wrong, flash did it because
>- the plugin is extremely small compared to the java bloat

And very limited, compared to Java.

>- it is very easy to install, for most users (which use MSIE on WIN)

It is no easier to install than Java 2.

>- it is also easier to start producing content with it compared to
>java

You are comparing apples and oranges.

>- it was aimed at graphic artists (which also produce web content)

Graphic artists are more adept at producing lots of design and not
very much substance (ie. content), IMHO.  

>- it simply worked !

As does Java.


0
Noel
3/2/2005 10:57:38 AM
Noel schreef:
> 
>>- it is very easy to install, for most users (which use MSIE on WIN)
> 
> 
> It is no easier to install than Java 2.
> 

No, we (our company) used to have a java webapplication on our website 
and there were a few problems.
First Java is a lot bigger, which gives problems.
Secondly, before Java 1.4.1, the installer was full screen and requires 
the user to run to a (useless) wizard. Flash installs almost 
transparantly after the user has given permission to install. The 
installations gets better with every version, but I can't grasp why Sun 
didn't create a good plugin installer in the first place.
Also, sometimes there were problems with downloading, weird errors.
And last but not least, Java was less known so some system 
administrators didn't want to install it. Of course you might not want 
to count that last reason, but the other problems were or are quite 
important.

> 
>>- it simply worked !
> 
> As does Java.
> 
> 
0
Gerbrand
3/2/2005 11:25:02 PM
Matthias wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:40:13 +0100, Eltee <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Flash did that only because of faster start-up times. Which is understandable of 
>>course.
> 
> 
> this is completely wrong, flash did it because
> - the plugin is extremely small compared to the java bloat

True, though the "bloat" thing is debatable, but...

> - it is very easy to install, for most users (which use MSIE on WIN)

....remember that once upon a time (MS version of) Java came (preinstalled) with 
the Windows. So no extra installation was necessary.

> - it is also easier to start producing content with it compared to
> java

Depends. I know nothing about flash. I don't much want to either.

> - it was aimed at graphic artists (which also produce web content)

<ironic>Really? Who would've thought.</ironic>

> - it simply worked !

As opposed to Java, which didn't (doesn't)?
0
Eltee
3/3/2005 8:49:01 AM
Gerbrand wrote:
> Noel schreef:
> 
>>
>>> - it is very easy to install, for most users (which use MSIE on WIN)
>>
>>
>>
>> It is no easier to install than Java 2.
>>
> 
> No, we (our company) used to have a java webapplication on our website 

Web application is something you run on _server_side_. Usually a system 
administrator does what's necessary, there. You just drop a war in the right place.

> and there were a few problems.
> First Java is a lot bigger, which gives problems.

Of course. But if you compare it to the size of a Win service pack, it's tiny.

> Secondly, before Java 1.4.1, the installer was full screen

<sarcastic>Yes, that was really a big (as in: Java took the whole "computer" to 
itself!) problem.</sarcastic>

 > and requires
> the user to run to a (useless) wizard.

Clicking a few Next's, that's all. What did you find useless? Moreover, what do 
you find so usefull with other installers (wizards, as you seem to call them)?

 > Flash installs almost
> transparantly after the user has given permission to install.

Whoopee-fscking-doo! With no control over what goes where. Oh yeah, it's a dream 
come true!

 > The
> installations gets better with every version, but I can't grasp why Sun 
> didn't create a good plugin installer in the first place.

You just check the right checkboxes and the plugin gets set up along with the 
runtime. What's bad about it? A "disagreeable exterior" (as in: badly designed 
checkbox)?

> Also, sometimes there were problems with downloading, weird errors.

<ironic>That surelly is a Java problem, no doubt. Java electrons seem to get 
stuck more frequently than those flashy ones.</ironic>
0
Eltee
3/3/2005 9:11:45 AM
Super Spinner wrote:
> I'll check the plugin's control panel to see if there are any settings
> regarding the message balloon.
> 
> The Java environment that I'm using (both the VM and the plugin) was
> pre-installed by Dell (both my laptop and desktop computers).  Maybe
> part of Sun's deal with Dell to pre-install Java was that it would be
> installed such that the message balloon would pop up whenever the
> plugin is loaded.

Well? Have you found out, yet?
0
Eltee
3/3/2005 10:03:56 AM
Eltee schreef:
> Gerbrand wrote:
> 
> Web application is something you run on _server_side_. Usually a system 
> administrator does what's necessary, there. You just drop a war in the 
> right place.
> 
I thought were were discussing the plugin. Of course a webapplication 
with only a html interface doesn't have any plugin installatiopn.

>> and there were a few problems.
>> First Java is a lot bigger, which gives problems.
> 
> 
> Of course. But if you compare it to the size of a Win service pack, it's 
> tiny.
> 
Win service pack?

>> Secondly, before Java 1.4.1, the installer was full screen
> 
> 
> <sarcastic>Yes, that was really a big (as in: Java took the whole 
> "computer" to itself!) problem.</sarcastic>
> 
>  > and requires
> 
>> the user to run to a (useless) wizard.
> 
> 
> Clicking a few Next's, that's all. What did you find useless? Moreover, 
> what do you find so usefull with other installers (wizards, as you seem 
> to call them)?
> 
>  > Flash installs almost
> 
>> transparantly after the user has given permission to install.
> 
> 
> Whoopee-fscking-doo! With no control over what goes where. Oh yeah, it's 
> a dream come true!
> 
Yes. 99% of all people don't care the plugin is installed in the Program 
files directory. There is 1% geeks that install everything manually on 
something others (if they wouldn't be geeks but nerds, that would alter 
the program files directory in the registry). Why should the installer 
ask that stupid question, making the installation process a lot less 
user friendly for users that just want to visit a website.


>  > The
> 
>> installations gets better with every version, but I can't grasp why 
>> Sun didn't create a good plugin installer in the first place.
> 
> 
> You just check the right checkboxes and the plugin gets set up along 
> with the runtime. What's bad about it? A "disagreeable exterior" (as in: 
> badly designed checkbox)?
> 
I don't mind but a lot of users with little computer knowlegde that are 
just visiting the page do.

>> Also, sometimes there were problems with downloading, weird errors.
> 
> 
> <ironic>That surelly is a Java problem, no doubt. Java electrons seem to 
> get stuck more frequently than those flashy ones.</ironic>
Could be something with the wise installer or msi, but the slim version 
of the plugin did once failed to install.
0
Gerbrand
3/5/2005 1:21:40 AM
Gerbrand wrote:
> Eltee schreef:
> 
>> Gerbrand wrote:
>>
>> Web application is something you run on _server_side_. Usually a 
>> system administrator does what's necessary, there. You just drop a war 
>> in the right place.
>>
> I thought were were discussing the plugin.

We were. Before you mentioned web application.

 > Of course a webapplication
> with only a html interface doesn't have any plugin installatiopn.
> 
>>> and there were a few problems.
>>> First Java is a lot bigger, which gives problems.
>>
>>
>>
>> Of course. But if you compare it to the size of a Win service pack, 
>> it's tiny.
>>
> Win service pack?

Yes, Gerbrand, Microsoft bundles Widnows patches into what they call service 
packs, from time to time. Those packs are absolutely huge.

>>> Secondly, before Java 1.4.1, the installer was full screen
>>
>>
>>
>> <sarcastic>Yes, that was really a big (as in: Java took the whole 
>> "computer" to itself!) problem.</sarcastic>
>>
>>  > and requires
>>
>>> the user to run to a (useless) wizard.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clicking a few Next's, that's all. What did you find useless? 
>> Moreover, what do you find so usefull with other installers (wizards, 
>> as you seem to call them)?
>>
>>  > Flash installs almost
>>
>>> transparantly after the user has given permission to install.
>>
>>
>>
>> Whoopee-fscking-doo! With no control over what goes where. Oh yeah, 
>> it's a dream come true!
>>
> Yes. 99% of all people don't care the plugin is installed in the Program 
> files directory. There is 1% geeks that install everything manually on 
> something others (if they wouldn't be geeks but nerds, that would alter 
> the program files directory in the registry). Why should the installer 
> ask that stupid question, making the installation process a lot less 
> user friendly for users that just want to visit a website.

Oh yes, that _is_ complicated. So complicated in fact, that it compares to the 
sticker on a carton of milk, you know, the one that says "Open here". Do you 
really think people need to be FDA certified experts in order to know how to 
"use" milk? Analogously, if people are given a choice where to install something 
while still being able to hit Next for the suggested "C:\Program Files", I don't 
think they need to be computer science graduates. If they're able to use Word 
(including the "advanced" feature of _saving_ documets) - and the majority of 
them knows how to do that - they should have no problem with that "confusing" 
install dialog.

>>  > The
>>
>>> installations gets better with every version, but I can't grasp why 
>>> Sun didn't create a good plugin installer in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> You just check the right checkboxes and the plugin gets set up along 
>> with the runtime. What's bad about it? A "disagreeable exterior" (as 
>> in: badly designed checkbox)?
>>
> I don't mind but a lot of users with little computer knowlegde that are 
> just visiting the page do.

Like I said above: they had to learn how to open a carton of milk by reading the 
  "installation guidelines" on the carton. And then whey they bought milk from a 
different dairy, they had to read the "installation guidelines" all over again. 
But after changing a couple of different dairies, they're now able to "install" 
milk without even reading the instructions. Savvy?

So (switching back to software) they should also read setup instructions the 
installation provides. Once they've installed a couple of programs, they 
should've been familiar enough with the process to go through it without even 
thinking.

>>> Also, sometimes there were problems with downloading, weird errors.
>>
>>
>>
>> <ironic>That surelly is a Java problem, no doubt. Java electrons seem 
>> to get stuck more frequently than those flashy ones.</ironic>
> 
> Could be something with the wise installer or msi, but the slim version 
> of the plugin did once failed to install.

Once? _ONCE_?!? As in one time? _Only_ one time? I'm impressed.
0
Eltee
3/7/2005 8:34:49 AM
Eltee <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote in news:392i54F5ok5rrU1@individual.net:

> Like I said above: they had to learn how to open a carton of milk by
> reading the 
>   "installation guidelines" on the carton. And then whey they bought
>   milk from a 
> different dairy, they had to read the "installation guidelines" all
> over again. But after changing a couple of different dairies, they're
> now able to "install" milk without even reading the instructions.
> Savvy? 
> 
> 

While I am not argueing about your larger point, it should be noted that 
Milk cartons are asymetrical. One side of the top is glued differently from 
the other to make opening it easier. This is always(?) the front but adding 
the "Open Here" removes any possible ambiguity and removes that need to 
analyse the various graphics on the carton.

We all know how to operate swinging glass doors. But it is still easier to 
get though one that etches a panel on the side we need to push. Same with 
the milk carton. By eatching the glass or putting a note on the correct end 
of the carton, you are adding visiblity to the 'controls'.

This concludes our test of the emergency Off-Topic Broadcasting System. 

Otis
0
Otis
3/7/2005 1:16:06 PM
Super Spinner schreef:
> I'll check the plugin's control panel to see if there are any settings
> regarding the message balloon.
> 
> The Java environment that I'm using (both the VM and the plugin) was
> pre-installed by Dell (both my laptop and desktop computers).  Maybe
> part of Sun's deal with Dell to pre-install Java was that it would be
> installed such that the message balloon would pop up whenever the
> plugin is loaded.
> 

I must say I observerd the balloon popping out of the system tray 
yesterday. It was at the Sun website, it could be just after installing 
the plugin. I had seen it before but I couldn't recall. Guess I was 
already happy the plugin doesn't install something that is in memory all 
the time or some spyware.
0
Gerbrand
3/9/2005 3:47:02 PM
"Eltee" <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38eaolF5kcodgU1@individual.net...
> Super Spinner wrote:
> > LOL
> > I love how you javadvocates take such umbrage at *any* criticism of
> > your precious, flawed, OOP language.
>
> You call FUD criticism?
>
>  > Java is not perfect, and is not
> > above criticism.
>
> Of course not. However, then you should criticise Java, not _a_
(particular)
> plugin's "poor behaviour".
>

This is a point I find I have to make over and over again to people.  Its
like if I went to a website with a crappy interface and slow server and
declared "The Internet sucks!!".

-mike


0
Michael
4/1/2005 11:33:13 PM
Michael N. Christoff wrote:
> "Eltee" <eltee@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:38eaolF5kcodgU1@individual.net...
> > Super Spinner wrote:
> > > LOL
> > > I love how you javadvocates take such umbrage at *any* criticism
of
> > > your precious, flawed, OOP language.
> >
> > You call FUD criticism?
> >
> >  > Java is not perfect, and is not
> > > above criticism.
> >
> > Of course not. However, then you should criticise Java, not _a_
> (particular)
> > plugin's "poor behaviour".
> >
>
> This is a point I find I have to make over and over again to people.
Its
> like if I went to a website with a crappy interface and slow server
and
> declared "The Internet sucks!!".
>
> -mike

Why did you resurrect this old thread?
BTW, I'm still getting the message pop-ups announcing Java's presence,
even after I upgraded from 1.4 to 1.5.  Both of my Windows machines
have this behavior, for both IE and Firefox.  I found no settings with
which to turn this annoyance off, so I'm just living with it.  But it
sucks.

0
Super
4/2/2005 7:14:20 AM
Reply: