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Desperately Seeking OpenVMS ecosystem

Is there or not an � OpenVMS ecosystem � ? And if there is such an 
ecosystem, how does it exist ?

Like the Susan of the film, it seems for now it is difficult to catch 
�her�, to know �her� needs, how �she� fights for �her� fortune.

In France, in an users club which is an heir of the old Decus (our name 
is �hp-interex france�), we thought it is the time to think about a 
renewal for community actions around the so-called �OpenVMS ecosystem�.

We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS 
(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer 
it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at the 
bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again 
misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).

It�s a milestone. For sure, if we have thousands of answers, and the 
global turnover sawn across the answers is trillions of dollars, it 
could be a very good thing for OpenVMS ecosystem.

But it is just some beginning for a long term action. OpenVMS ecosystem 
has to exist as a whole (big companies using it, small companies living 
by it, professionals, third parties, ISV, (hp ?)...) : we need news 
letters, forums, symposium, foundations for universal training,�

But what we need first : ideas, good discussion threads, like here for 
sure, but not only here. Do have a look at our site 
(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-engl/4406227), do begin to write to 
us here (pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr), stay on the line.

This fall, some little village from France resists again doom :=). Have 
with us the taste of the �magic potion�.

G�rard Calliet
Vice president of HP-Interex France
pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr
0
11/13/2013 9:38:23 AM
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On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 10:38:23 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:

>Is there or not an � OpenVMS ecosystem � ? And if there is such an 
>ecosystem, how does it exist ?
>
>Like the Susan of the film, it seems for now it is difficult to catch 
>�her�, to know �her� needs, how �she� fights for �her� fortune.
>
>In France, in an users club which is an heir of the old Decus (our name 
>is �hp-interex france�), we thought it is the time to think about a 
>renewal for community actions around the so-called �OpenVMS ecosystem�.
>
>We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS 
>(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer 
>it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at the 
>bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again 
>misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).
>
>It�s a milestone. For sure, if we have thousands of answers, and the 
>global turnover sawn across the answers is trillions of dollars, it 
>could be a very good thing for OpenVMS ecosystem.
>
>But it is just some beginning for a long term action. OpenVMS ecosystem 
>has to exist as a whole (big companies using it, small companies living 
>by it, professionals, third parties, ISV, (hp ?)...) : we need news 
>letters, forums, symposium, foundations for universal training,�
>
>But what we need first : ideas, good discussion threads, like here for 
>sure, but not only here. Do have a look at our site 
>(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-engl/4406227), do begin to write to 
>us here (pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr), stay on the line.
>
>This fall, some little village from France resists again doom :=). Have 
>with us the taste of the �magic potion�.
>
>G�rard Calliet
>Vice president of HP-Interex France
>pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr

Greetings Gerard, from the VLF, in lieu of a more timely response from
the rest of the comp.os.vms collegiate.

The VLF are always well pleased to see above ground, respectable, VMS
resistance efforts start to bloom and blossom!

Indeed there must be something in the magic mountain spring waters of
France, the village of Bugarach saw through and stared down the "End
Of Time":

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/nov/19/bugarach-french-village-survive-mayan-apocalypse

And now you and your compadres are seeing through and staring down the
"End Of VMS", and good on you!

IIRC, J. F. Mezel posted a witty conflation of the end of time and the
end of VMS, to comp.os.vms, in late 2012.

Rebooting the VMS ecosystem is not impossible, however, nor will it be
a romp in the park, either. The fact that HP and Stromasys in their
VMS business models are thanatophilic necrophages, does not help
matters in the slightest. Though to Stromasyss credit, they do
actively engage in research and development of their emulators.

What R&D had HP done in all the time that it has owned it? - indeed it
has been grossly destructive of its ability to engage in VMS R&D. VMS
Engineering can't patch, can't port, and can't produce - I strongly
doubt they could produce a fresh VMS Kernel, even from the existing
code base revision levels. Nor can it keep documentation up to date.

Can't patch, can't port, can't publish, can't produce; can't perform.

The remaining VMS customer base should mount a class-action suit
against HP for craven and shameless BCS SLA fraud and demand ownership
of the VMS asset as just compensation.

Then they can charge each other a fortune for technical support but at
least they would have full knowledge and control of the BCS SLA
quality assurance.

Thus, an important part of the boot-strapping of the rebooting of the
VMS ecology, would be the remaining VMS installation base becoming
fully, symmetrically, reflexively, self-aware, and it is only when it
does so, that it can properly self-organise and engage in effect VMS
agency and advocacy with HP.

HP are doing nothing useful with it, certainly not for the HP
shareholders and shareholder value, so the entire HP VMS customer
database should be leaked to the public domain.

Whatever entities or institutions remain in the HP customer database,
they are highly motivated VMS users and are rusted on. It is not as if
any competitors to HP will gain any competitive advantage by such a
leak.

It it highly unlikely that HP has had any new VMS business in the time
that it has owned it. It is highly unlikely that much new VMS business
was built in the time that Compaq owned VMS.

In all probability, the HP VMS customer database is a strict subset of
the Compaq VMS customer database and in turn, the Compaq VMS customer
database is a strict subset of the DEC VMS customer database.

So breaches and leaks from the HP data cores, might not be necessary
at all, surely amongst the world-wide diaspora of ex-digits, there
resides copies of the old Compaq or DEC VMS customer databases?

Of course, standard disclaimers: just because the VLF responded to
this post, that should not be a disincentive to anyone else
participating in the thread; the VLF do not interpret any interaction
with the VLF as implicit approbration for our activities or
understanding of our values and motivations - let it be noted.

Just treat this post as a side-note to Gerards original post.

Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
hello was in order.

Best wishes with your VMS activism endeavours!

Best regards,

The VLF
http://is.gd/VLF_MANiFESTO

PS: Last known photograph of the VLF:

http://is.gd/VLF_2012
0
vlf (63)
11/17/2013 12:20:17 PM
Subcommandante XDelta mentioned  on 17-11-2013 13:20:

[snipped]

> Rebooting the VMS ecosystem is not impossible, however, nor will it be
> a romp in the park, either. The fact that HP and Stromasys in their
> VMS business models are thanatophilic necrophages, does not help
> matters in the slightest. Though to Stromasyss credit, they do
> actively engage in research and development of their emulators.


[and snipped]


Esteemed Subcommandante,

This vexes me: why do you keep associating the folks @ Stromasys with 
VMS? Although they retain their software migration capabilities, they 
are mostly known for their *hardware* emulators for PDP-11, VAX, Alpha, 
HP-3000 etc.

Or does your organization also have some secret platoons that deal with 
hardware that needs to be liberated along with the VMS software?

/Wilm
0
11/17/2013 6:51:41 PM
On 13-11-17 07:20, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:

> The VLF are always well pleased to see above ground, respectable, VMS
> resistance efforts start to bloom and blossom!

We can argue about what VMS could have been. We can argue about the
mistakes (willful or thorugh stupidity) made by the owners of VMS.

But we cannot argue that in its current state, VMS is on a dead
platform, and has not has significant development for over a decade, has
no market share, and is not even known to exist (or have existed) by the
younger generation.

It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards.

Bringing VMS up to date to be competitive would likely make it very much
like Linux. So in the end, and upgraded VMS would look quite similar to
Linux with VMS bits added to it. The later would cost far less and get
far more market potential because it is "Linux".

Software is like plants. If you don't water them and feed them, they
die. This is what happened to VMS.

The best and only possible response to the death of VMS is to stop
buying HP products.

And before you think that the announcement that NSK is being ported to
8086 brings us hope that HP would change its mind about VMS, consider
that if HP was undecided about whether to port VMS or not, they wouldn't
have made the EOL announcement for VMS.

In fact, they might have announced that they are not porting to Poulson
because they are currently evaluating a port to 8086. (and then see what
sort of response they are getting).

When they announced that VMS was not only not ported to Poulson but no
longer being developped, this made it extremely difficult for HP to do
an about face.

And consider this, the decision to kill VMS would likely have been done
after discussions with the large VMS customers that are left. If those
already had plans to migrate to something else, they wouldn't have
fought tooth and nail to save VMS. This is different from NSK customers
who have nowhere else to go to get the degree of hardware and software
fault tolerance they need.

0
11/17/2013 7:39:11 PM
Le 17/11/2013 20:39, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-17 07:20, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>
>> The VLF are always well pleased to see above ground, respectable, VMS
>> resistance efforts start to bloom and blossom!
>
> We can argue about what VMS could have been. We can argue ....
Yes, good to say : we can argue... but it would be better to DO something.

Yes, I know, it seems we are dead.

Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms 
friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.

What is the story :

One : special kernel AST (the june letter from HP) : hello guys, you are 
dead !

Two : $EXIT (the community which argues and... argues) : ok boss, I am 
dead, I kill myself.


My analysis : HP uses the "optimistic" VMS community to do the dirty 
job. "We don't need to publish anything about VMS EOL, it will be the 
VMS community which will do that for us". And it is a good strategy : it 
works.

Are we dead or not ? I don't know. But perhaps we can do something more 
than arguing.

For example : HP says the VMS sites are a few, their needs can be 
addressed by any other good OS, no big issue for the "great transition", 
and so on. I don't think saying to HP "hum, you are wrong, redo your 
analysis" could work. But it is not impossible that working at data 
collection about VMS uses and issues could do something.

Another example : being able to describe specific needs for a 
"transition" could initiate creation of specific offers.

And so on.

On the contrary doing nothing sounds like a proof that you are dead.

Best regards,

G�rard Calliet

0
11/17/2013 10:25:21 PM
Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
> hello was in order.
Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season 
2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french 
very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.

G�rard Calliet
0
11/17/2013 10:31:49 PM
On Sunday, 17 November 2013 19:39:11 UTC, JF Mezei  wrote:
> On 13-11-17 07:20, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > The VLF are always well pleased to see above ground, respectable, VMS
> 
> > resistance efforts start to bloom and blossom!
> 
> 
> 
> We can argue about what VMS could have been. We can argue about the
> 
> mistakes (willful or thorugh stupidity) made by the owners of VMS.
> 
> 
> 
> But we cannot argue that in its current state, VMS is on a dead
> 
> platform, and has not has significant development for over a decade, has
> 
> no market share, and is not even known to exist (or have existed) by the
> 
> younger generation.
> 
> 
> 
> It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
> 
> Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards.
> 
> 
> 
> Bringing VMS up to date to be competitive would likely make it very much
> 
> like Linux. So in the end, and upgraded VMS would look quite similar to
> 
> Linux with VMS bits added to it. The later would cost far less and get
> 
> far more market potential because it is "Linux".
> 
> 
> 
> Software is like plants. If you don't water them and feed them, they
> 
> die. This is what happened to VMS.
> 
> 
> 
> The best and only possible response to the death of VMS is to stop
> 
> buying HP products.
> 
> 
> 
> And before you think that the announcement that NSK is being ported to
> 
> 8086 brings us hope that HP would change its mind about VMS, consider
> 
> that if HP was undecided about whether to port VMS or not, they wouldn't
> 
> have made the EOL announcement for VMS.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, they might have announced that they are not porting to Poulson
> 
> because they are currently evaluating a port to 8086. (and then see what
> 
> sort of response they are getting).
> 
> 
> 
> When they announced that VMS was not only not ported to Poulson but no
> 
> longer being developped, this made it extremely difficult for HP to do
> 
> an about face.
> 
> 
> 
> And consider this, the decision to kill VMS would likely have been done
> 
> after discussions with the large VMS customers that are left. If those
> 
> already had plans to migrate to something else, they wouldn't have
> 
> fought tooth and nail to save VMS. This is different from NSK customers
> 
> who have nowhere else to go to get the degree of hardware and software
> 
> fault tolerance they need.

"Bringing VMS up to date to be competitive"

Competitive with what?

Does a sports car compete with a minibus?

"It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."

VMS has unique+interesting bits in userland (DCL, maybe RMS, some tools and 
utilities, maybe more) and some interesting views of how the underlying stuff 
should behave. Sector 7 allege that they can make much of this magick work on 
Linux (and Windows) already, though there's remarkably little discussion of it 
round here.

What's a lot harder to make work on Linux is the VMS view of how an OS should 
behave inside. If you made Linux internals behave like VMS internals it 
probably wouldn't be Linux any more. So why would anyone want to "port the 
unique portions of VMS (internals) to Linux"?

Maybe it could be done with a microkernel? They were trendy once, like 
HYPErvisors are these days, except microkernels were compact, had small attack 
surfaces from a robustness/security point of view, and weren't Windows ready.

0
11/17/2013 10:35:35 PM
On 13-11-17 17:25, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> On the contrary doing nothing sounds like a proof that you are dead.

The time to act would have been on September 7th 2001  when LaCarly
annouced HP was buying Compaq and outlined product futures for all
products EXECEPT VMS,

The time to act was when on May 8th 2002, when HP finally annoucned its
plans for VMS which included the famous Stallard memo indicating that HP
was going to continue to support *existing* VMS customers and hope they
would migrate to HP-UX in their own time.

At that point, it was quite clear that HP's intentions were solely to
continue to collect support revenues from the existing installed base.
It was at that time that serious high level representations would have
had to be made to LaCarly and Robison to convince them that VMS could
have a bright future and not let it die of old age.

high level representation means CEO of large customer talking to La
Carly and Shane Robison.   User groups don't get to reach that high in
such an organisation. Now even VMS management could reach those folks
with cogent arguments to not only keep VMS alive, but to develop and
agressively market it.

If NSK survives, it isn't because of some user group, it is likely
because of a number of key and very high profile customers went to
Whitman and convinced her that if she didn't port NSK to x86, HP would
get a VERY VERY bad image. the NASDAQ would not take lightly to seeing
an EOL on its core system. (and since it owns OMX but has placed bets on
NSK,  NASDAQ probably told HP it was ok to let go of VMS)


Another time when high level contact was needed was when HP started to
confirm that they had no plans to port BCS operating systems beyond
Itanium.  That was the signal that HP-UX, VMS and NSK were dead. NSK
customer obviously managed to change that decision. When that change was
made, I can't know.


0
11/17/2013 11:42:49 PM
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 23:31:49 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:

>Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
>> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
>> hello was in order.
>Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season 
>2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french 
>very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.
>
>G�rard Calliet

Hello Gerard,

I have perused the HP-Interex website. I have discovered that most
pages have non-working weblinks, and I would recommend that you walk
through each page and check each link.

For instance:

http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-engl/4406227

These links do not work:

"Questions to HP from Swedish OpenVMS customers"

and the two:

"With a little help of VMS' Friends"

links.

On the survey page:

http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-survey-en/4395105

The downloadable PDF link is broken.

No links working in Opera and IE, but also apparent from the page
code.

Best regards,
0
vlf (63)
11/18/2013 2:27:24 AM
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:27:24 PM UTC-5, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 23:31:49 +0100, "G=E9rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
>=20
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a =E9crit :
>=20
> >> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
>=20
> >> hello was in order.
>=20
> >Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season=
=20
>=20
> >2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french=
=20
>=20
> >very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.
>=20
> >
>=20
> >G=E9rard Calliet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hello Gerard,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have perused the HP-Interex website. I have discovered that most
>=20
> pages have non-working weblinks, and I would recommend that you walk
>=20
> through each page and check each link.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> For instance:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-engl/4406227
>=20
>=20
>=20
> These links do not work:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "Questions to HP from Swedish OpenVMS customers"
>=20
>=20
>=20
> and the two:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> "With a little help of VMS' Friends"
>=20
>=20
>=20
> links.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On the survey page:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-survey-en/4395105
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The downloadable PDF link is broken.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> No links working in Opera and IE, but also apparent from the page
>=20
> code.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Best regards,

You might want to check your configuration and the links again.  All of tho=
se that you mention worked and still work fine for me.

Best,

Bill.
0
pedersen (385)
11/18/2013 4:11:45 AM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:

> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms 
> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.

And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/18/2013 7:09:50 AM
Le 18/11/2013 05:11, BillPedersen a �crit :
> On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:27:24 PM UTC-5, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 23:31:49 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
>>
>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
>>
>>>> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
>>
>>>> hello was in order.
>>
>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season
>>
>>> 2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french
>>
>>> very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> G�rard Calliet
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Gerard,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have perused the HP-Interex website. I have discovered that most
>>
>> pages have non-working weblinks, and I would recommend that you walk
>>
>> through each page and check each link.
>>
>>
>>
>> For instance:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-engl/4406227
>>
>>
>>
>> These links do not work:
>>
>>
>>
>> "Questions to HP from Swedish OpenVMS customers"
>>
>>
>>
>> and the two:
>>
>>
>>
>> "With a little help of VMS' Friends"
>>
>>
>>
>> links.
>>
>>
>>
>> On the survey page:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-survey-en/4395105
>>
>>
>>
>> The downloadable PDF link is broken.
>>
>>
>>
>> No links working in Opera and IE, but also apparent from the page
>>
>> code.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>
> You might want to check your configuration and the links again.  All of those that you mention worked and still work fine for me.
>
> Best,
>
> Bill.
>
Perhaps I have been hijacked for a moment, dear captains, by 
microsoft-and-hp plot ? :=)
0
11/18/2013 8:34:18 AM
Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>
>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>
> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>
In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis 
about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the 
survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think 
is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means, 
and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
VMS friends need friends.

0
11/18/2013 8:42:21 AM
On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 09:34:18 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:

>Le 18/11/2013 05:11, BillPedersen a �crit :
>> On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:27:24 PM UTC-5, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 23:31:49 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
>>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>>>> Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
>>>>> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
>>>>> hello was in order.
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season
>>>> 2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french
>>>> very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.
>>>> G�rard Calliet
>>>
>>> Hello Gerard,
>>>
>>> I have perused the HP-Interex website. I have discovered that most
>>> pages have non-working weblinks, and I would recommend that you walk
>>> through each page and check each link.
>>>
>>> For instance:
>>>
>>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-engl/4406227
>>>
>>> These links do not work:
>>>
>>> "Questions to HP from Swedish OpenVMS customers"
>>>
>>> and the two:
>>>
>>> "With a little help of VMS' Friends"
>>>
>>> links.
>>>
>>> On the survey page:
>>>
>>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-survey-en/4395105
>>>
>>> The downloadable PDF link is broken.
>>>
>>> No links working in Opera and IE, but also apparent from the page
>>>
>>> code.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>
>> You might want to check your configuration and the links again.
>> All of those that you mention worked and still work fine for me.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Bill.
>>
>Perhaps I have been hijacked for a moment, dear captains, by 
>microsoft-and-hp plot ? :=)

Sorry for the confusion. No, this one cannot be sheeted home to HP and
MS this time. :-)

It was due to some infelicitous interaction between the otherwise
excellent "Ad Muncher" and your website; when I disabled filtering in
it, all the links work as expected.

http://www.admuncher.com/

With apologies.
0
vlf (63)
11/18/2013 8:50:07 AM
Le 18/11/2013 00:42, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-17 17:25, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>
>> On the contrary doing nothing sounds like a proof that you are dead.
>
> The time to act would have been on September 7th 2001  when LaCarly
> annouced HP was buying Compaq and outlined product futures for all
> products EXECEPT VMS,
>
> The time to act was when on May 8th 2002, when HP finally annoucned its
> plans for VMS which included the famous Stallard memo indicating that HP
> was going to continue to support *existing* VMS customers and hope they
> would migrate to HP-UX in their own time.
>
> At that point, it was quite clear that HP's intentions were solely to
> continue to collect support revenues from the existing installed base.
> It was at that time that serious high level representations would have
> had to be made to LaCarly and Robison to convince them that VMS could
> have a bright future and not let it die of old age.
>
> high level representation means CEO of large customer talking to La
> Carly and Shane Robison.   User groups don't get to reach that high in
> such an organisation. Now even VMS management could reach those folks
> with cogent arguments to not only keep VMS alive, but to develop and
> agressively market it.
>
> If NSK survives, it isn't because of some user group, it is likely
> because of a number of key and very high profile customers went to
> Whitman and convinced her that if she didn't port NSK to x86, HP would
> get a VERY VERY bad image. the NASDAQ would not take lightly to seeing
> an EOL on its core system. (and since it owns OMX but has placed bets on
> NSK,  NASDAQ probably told HP it was ok to let go of VMS)
>
>
> Another time when high level contact was needed was when HP started to
> confirm that they had no plans to port BCS operating systems beyond
> Itanium.  That was the signal that HP-UX, VMS and NSK were dead. NSK
> customer obviously managed to change that decision. When that change was
> made, I can't know.
>
>
Two remarks :

Generaly speaking how wrong is a situation, the fight is in present for 
the future, and not in the past for the present. Yes we are in such a 
bad situation because there were bad and bad things in the past. But for 
now we can think about doing some things, and thinking about what can be 
and must be done. We are not just VMS lovers, we are consultants for 
users whom have needs, or professionals in companies for which 
"transition" away from VMS is a big issue. We have some work to do for 
them and for us.

"""If NSK survives, it isn't because of some user group""". I agree. And 
you give me the opportunity to detail our try :
I think the concept of "users club" in its older form is dead. No use 
for big world companies : HP is not Dec. No use for technical users : 
just google it and you have the answer.

But I think another concept is going on : ecosystem. An ecosystem is a 
complex combination of technical uses, technical needs, economic 
interests, archives issues...

And I think, dying or not dying, VMS is an ecosystem. Perhaps this 
ecosystem would not exist after 2025. Ok. Or perhaps it will survive and 
microsoft will sink. Perhaps VMS ecosystem will be survive being 
stake-holdered by its major users,... We don't know, and I agree a users 
club cannot alone change anything. But there is some job that can and 
must be done : one of that : creating tools that can support this 
ecosystem. Bill Pedersen & co offer technical forum. Good thing. Some 
Sweeden big users coordinate to write to HP. Good thing. It seems 
something like a VMS ecosystem exists. We have just to going on.

What can we obtain ? I don't know. Perhaps only some confort for our 
users during the ugly "transition". Perhaps a little more.

But for sure, the man who cannot win is the man who does'nt play the match.

0
11/18/2013 9:07:21 AM
Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer) wrote:

> We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS 
> (http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer 
> it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at the 
> bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again 
> misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).

I has difficulty downloading the PDF using Firefox due to the actual URL
being hidden behind some CGI mechanism.

To save others the hassle I have put both the English and French
versions on my own site:

<http://www.sture.ch/downloads/openvms_survey_en.pdf>

<http://www.sture.ch/downloads/openvms_survey_fr.pdf>

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/18/2013 9:51:24 AM
Gérard Calliet (pia-sofer) wrote:

> We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS 
> (http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer 
> it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at 
the 
> bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again 
> misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).

I has difficulty downloading the PDF using Firefox due to the actual URL
being hidden behind some CGI mechanism.

To save others the hassle I have put both the English and French
versions on my own site:

<http://www.sture.ch/downloads/openvms_survey_en.pdf>

<http://www.sture.ch/downloads/openvms_survey_fr.pdf>

-- 
Paul Sture
0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/18/2013 9:54:05 AM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
> 
>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>
>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>
>>
>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>
> In these ppt, 

which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/18/2013 10:14:11 AM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:

> creating tools that can support this 
> ecosystem. 

a ppt-reader maybe?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/18/2013 10:18:01 AM
On 18-nov-2013 11:14, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>
>>>
>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>
>> In these ppt,
>
> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?

Do you still run VMS?  I thought you ran OS/2, like to read
these newsgroups?  Your user agent string appears to be:
"Mozilla/5.0 (OS/2; U; Warp 4.5; de-DE; rv:1.3) Gecko/20030616".
Does OS/2 have a PPT-reader/viewer tool, for that matter?

  - MG

0
marcogbNO (1232)
11/18/2013 2:28:32 PM
Michael Kraemer mentioned  on 18-11-2013 11:14:
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>
>>>
>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>
>> In these ppt,
>
> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?

Couldn't resist: "Any papertape reader that does DECtape II"

/Wilm

0
11/18/2013 2:54:53 PM
On 2013-11-18, Wilm Boerhout <wboerhout-remove@this-gmail.com> wrote:
> Couldn't resist: "Any papertape reader that does DECtape II"

Not certain how or why one would try to stuff a TU58 into a
paper tape reader.
-- 
roger ivie
rivie@ridgenet.net
0
rivie (670)
11/18/2013 4:04:17 PM
Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-18 11:14:
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>
>>>
>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>
>> In these ppt,
>
> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?
>


Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???

Btw, all links and documents from the HP-intertex.fr site
seems to open and read just fine. I'm using FF (V25.0.1).

Jan-Erik.
0
11/18/2013 5:36:09 PM
On 2013-11-18, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-18 11:14:
>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>
>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>
>>> In these ppt,
>>
>> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?
>>
>
>
> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>
> Btw, all links and documents from the HP-intertex.fr site
> seems to open and read just fine. I'm using FF (V25.0.1).
>

I think the point Michael is trying to make is that if you want to revive
VMS so that it targets a larger user base, then it's got to be capable of
doing the jobs that this larger user base typically carry out.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/18/2013 5:40:55 PM
Simon Clubley wrote 2013-11-18 18:40:
> On 2013-11-18, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>> Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-18 11:14:
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>
>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>
>>>> In these ppt,
>>>
>>> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>
>> Btw, all links and documents from the HP-intertex.fr site
>> seems to open and read just fine. I'm using FF (V25.0.1).
>>
>
> I think the point Michael is trying to make is that if you want to revive
> VMS so that it targets a larger user base, then it's got to be capable of
> doing the jobs that this larger user base typically carry out.
>
> Simon.
>

But this "larger user base" will never include those that
wants to look at a Powerpoint presentation. Michael is simply
making a joke of those (still anyone?) that belives that.
Of course Mickael doesn't believe that himself...

0
11/18/2013 5:57:22 PM
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> "It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
> Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."

I see these vague comments from time to time.  Actually, too many times. 
  What I've rarely seen is a list of just what these modern standards 
actually are.

So, omitting the desktop and anything requiring a GUI, just what does 
VMS need, and how hard would it be to provide it.

Note, this is NOT a cue for Steve to mention again a DBMS, he's pretty 
much convinced me that he's right about that.  At least somewhat.
0
davef3 (3716)
11/18/2013 7:18:51 PM
On Monday, 18 November 2013 17:40:55 UTC, Simon Clubley  wrote:
> On 2013-11-18, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-18 11:14:
>=20
> >> G=E9rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>=20
> >>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a =E9crit :
>=20
> >>>
>=20
> >>>> G=E9rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>=20
> >>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>=20
> >>>>
>=20
> >>> In these ppt,
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> which ppt-Reader do you recommend to use on VMS?
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>=20
> >
>=20
> > Btw, all links and documents from the HP-intertex.fr site
>=20
> > seems to open and read just fine. I'm using FF (V25.0.1).
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I think the point Michael is trying to make is that if you want to revive
>=20
> VMS so that it targets a larger user base, then it's got to be capable of
>=20
> doing the jobs that this larger user base typically carry out.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Simon.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
>=20
> Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

With the greatest possible respect: if you are a manufacturer of volume car=
s=20
with a struggling sideline in minibuses, you don't *necessarily* revive the=
=20
minibus business by making it more car-like. You might want to look at what=
=20
your competitors are and are not doing in the minibus market. You might loo=
k at=20
what they are doing that succeeds, and what they are not doing that could=
=20
succeed for you if you invested in doing it well. You might even decide to =
sell
off the minibus business to someone with a serious interest in minibuses.

Or you could do what HP are apparently doing and let the (minibus) business=
=20
wither on the vine, while others are still succeeding in the sector.

Same for computers and operating systems. One size does not always fit all=
=20
needs, whatever the modern IT department may wish.

The end of the mainframe (the IBM-style mainframe) has been predicted for a=
=20
long time. Windows hasn't replaced it yet, not even the much-vaunted but=20
largely ignored DataCentre Edition.

VMS may or may not have a commercial future, but attempting to directly rev=
ive=20
it as a volume desktop OS would look (to many people) like high risk low re=
ward.

On the other hand if one were to rebadge VMS as a server for virtual deskto=
p
infrastructure, which might be trendy again one day... Then again, for thos=
e=20
not permanently welded to Windows, what's needed for VDI that Linux/BSD doe=
sn't=20
already have covered?

Oh well, we'll see.
0
11/18/2013 8:00:51 PM
On 2013-11-18, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> "It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
>> Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."
>
> I see these vague comments from time to time.  Actually, too many times. 
>   What I've rarely seen is a list of just what these modern standards 
> actually are.
>
> So, omitting the desktop and anything requiring a GUI, just what does 
> VMS need, and how hard would it be to provide it.
>

You can't just omit the desktop and a GUI; that's pretty much required
these days.

It was also a selling point in the old days as well. There's a reason
DEC choose the desktop to data center type slogan; it tells people the
same skills and knowledge can be used in multiple application areas.
That's the role Linux is occupying these days.

Some general unstructured observations:

For anything serious, a MAC security model (my preferred approach) or
application sandboxing (Hoff's preferred approach) is a major plus
in many market segments, but especially in a environment where you
cannot trust the users (such as a Internet facing application) but
VMS lacks both of these options.

What would you use for a development environment ? Linux has a range
of multiple development environments and tool infrastructure to match
the task at hand or the developer's way of working.

You can have everything from a very functional/rich CLI environment to
full blown IDEs which do a great deal of hand holding. I prefer the former
when appropriate (with the use of specific GUI tools such as a debugger
when required) and I can tell you DCL and the tools available on VMS
are a joke compared to the development tools available on Linux.

I've listed what I think is wrong with DCL at great length on the past so
I'm not going to waste time repeating myself; look up some of my previous
postings on DCL if you want to know some specific issues.

Many of the same comments about development tools also apply to system
management.

BTW, on Linux, the same development tool ecosystem for native development
can be used for embedded/cross compiled development. VMS has nothing
usable in the embedded toolset area either in the software or hardware
area for today's embedded ecosystem.

How do you provide the vast range of applications available on Linux
under VMS ? One approach might be to provide some kind of Linux ABI
module as found on FreeBSD.

Also, it's not enough to offer feature matching with Linux; you need
a major advantage which would convince people to switch to your unknown
(to them) VMS system. I don't see anything major in the remaining unique
features of VMS functionality which would justify such a switch. There
are a number of little things, but nothing major.

You need to be able to answer the question "What does switching to this
VMS system of yours give me and why should I take the risk ?" that your
new potential users will ask. Until you can answer that question in a
convincing way, then you have nothing.

> Note, this is NOT a cue for Steve to mention again a DBMS, he's pretty 
> much convinced me that he's right about that.  At least somewhat.

A DBMS is the least of your concerns if you want people to embrace your
new (to them) VMS system.

You also need to decide what hardware VMS will run on and how that could
be made compatible with the hardware requirements in the VMS code base.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/18/2013 8:20:50 PM
In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???

The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his 
presentation?

0
helbig (5064)
11/18/2013 9:24:38 PM
In article <l6dp49$ui2$1@dont-email.me>, David Froble
<davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: 

> > "It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
> > Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."
> 
> I see these vague comments from time to time.  Actually, too many times. 
>   What I've rarely seen is a list of just what these modern standards 
> actually are.
> 
> So, omitting the desktop and anything requiring a GUI, just what does 
> VMS need, and how hard would it be to provide it.

First, I would mention desktop and GUI.  I am generally happy with 
DECwindows and CDE, but a modern web browser would be nice.

Apart from desktop and GUI:

   o  non-buggy TCPIP

   o  up-to-date (latest standard) compilers (DEC used to be the world
      leader here; sic transit gloria mundi)

   o  for some customers: faster hardware

   o  good support

Obviously, if the system was adequate for its task then, it is adequate 
for the same task now.  If neither software nor hardware needs changing, 
then just get enough spares and you're done.  These folks don't need 
anything new.  Faster hardware (read: the fastest hardware) is needed by 
some, but not all, users.  Personally, I think that TCPIP bugs and the 
lack of support for newer language standards are areas where VMS (now) 
lags behind, though the compilers were the gold standard in the past.  
Non-frozen customers will need support in the form of patches and new 
features, as needed, in new releases.

0
helbig (5064)
11/18/2013 9:31:12 PM
In article <l6dsr1$noo$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes: 

> You can't just omit the desktop and a GUI; that's pretty much required
> these days.

Yes and no.  Yes, one can connect to a headless VMS system and do most 
of what one needs.  However, I don't see the need to REQUIRE some other 
system for access.

> It was also a selling point in the old days as well. There's a reason
> DEC choose the desktop to data center type slogan; it tells people the
> same skills and knowledge can be used in multiple application areas.
> That's the role Linux is occupying these days.

Right.

> What would you use for a development environment ? 

DECset?  Don't knock it unless you know all of its capabilities.

0
helbig (5064)
11/18/2013 9:33:35 PM
In article <l6e0im$3a8$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
><jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>
>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>
>The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his 
>presentation?

PowerPuke stinks worse than the mephitic wind from a decaying pig's arse!

Use Keynote; it has more and better features with a professional polish
than does PowerPuke.  Regardless, I don't really see a need for Keynote
on VMS either.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/18/2013 9:54:48 PM
Le 18/11/2013 22:24, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply a �crit :
> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>
>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>
> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
> presentation?
>
I must say I don't have any regret publishing in this group. I have got 
the most surrealistic dialog I had ever got for years.

Some of us are on a train which goes ten km later upon a failed bridge, 
and the most of the technical guys in the train talk about who was wrong 
ten years ago for this bug.

I apologize promoting some acts, and, horror, talking about some slides, 
which, perhaps, could not be seen on a vax, which is somehow a proof of 
the first sin of Adam.

But the question for me was : is there an VMS ecosystem ? For now, I 
have to see the answer : no. HP was rigth, there is no one to go against 
HP when they can put away (35 years) * (2500 sites) of work with a 60 
lines letter. We are impressed by such force.

I think it will be a very intersting theme for reseachers on computers 
archeology how "2500 mission critical sites" supported by the "best OS 
of the world" had not more than twelve defenders.


G�rard Calliet
0
11/19/2013 12:14:43 AM
David Froble wrote:
> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>> "It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
>> Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."
> 
> I see these vague comments from time to time.  Actually, too many times. 
>  What I've rarely seen is a list of just what these modern standards 
> actually are.
> 
> So, omitting the desktop and anything requiring a GUI, just what does 
> VMS need, and how hard would it be to provide it.
> 
> Note, this is NOT a cue for Steve to mention again a DBMS, he's pretty 
> much convinced me that he's right about that.  At least somewhat.

Well, some interesting reading, with various viewpoints ....

It seems to me that the first question, before which others are 
meaningless, is "what would be the target market(s) of a resurected VMS?"

I've mentioned before, there are more than adequate web servers out 
there, trying to capture that market with VMS would be like spotting 
Secretariat 200 yards and then trying to catch him.  Not too smart.

One common thread seemed to be security.  I'd think that such should be 
approached in a comprehensive manner, not patches.  A design that 
encrypted all data, not just on disk and outside transfers, but 
everywhere might be appropriate.  Don't know how such would be 
implemented, I'd think that such a project would first require lots of 
thinking and consideration of various methods.

I've also seen mention of toolsets.  I really don't know any others, so 
I don't know what this actually means.  Compile, link, and run work for 
me.  I've used Visual Basic, and while I can appreciate some of the 
things it does for you, I also feel that it's too rigid in some ways. 
The more you do things for people, the less options they have.

Simon talks about cross platform development environments.  Would this 
really be a large market?  No idea.

TCP/IP, well, it ain't rocket science, which itself isn't too hard 
anymore.  Decide what it should do, and implement it to do those things 
well.

For me personally, I see two paths.  The first of course is the current 
customer base, which might include those who are trying to port to 
elsewhere, and aren't being too successful.  If they had a valid path 
back to VMS, which they don't now, and is why they are porting, then 
perhaps they'd consider reverting to what may have worked well for them 
in the past.  The other path would be whatever target markets where a 
revamped VMS would excel and perhaps lead all other platforms.

But yeah, before anything else, define the targets, forget the shotgun 
approach.

Myself, I got no problem using weendoze or others as the front end / 
user interface.
0
davef3 (3716)
11/19/2013 12:53:19 AM
On 2013-11-18, David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> I've also seen mention of toolsets.  I really don't know any others, so 
> I don't know what this actually means.  Compile, link, and run work for 
> me.  I've used Visual Basic, and while I can appreciate some of the 
> things it does for you, I also feel that it's too rigid in some ways. 
> The more you do things for people, the less options they have.
>

On Linux, you have multiple layers of toolsets and you can choose the
level and type of tools which is appropriate for you.

[Apologies if you already know the following.]

At the core you have gcc (the command line compiler for Ada, C, C++,
Fortran, etc) and binutils (the linker, librarian, assembler and other
tools). You also have a command line debugger called gdb and GNU make
to tie together your command line builds.

On top of this, you have simple standalone interfaces to these tools such
as the GUI interfaces to gdb and powerful editors such as emacs.

At the next level up, you have the full blown IDEs such as Eclipse, which
still use the command line tools at their core, but have wrapped them in a
full blown hand holding interface.

Apart from this, you also have a vast range of libraries which can either
be slotted into the IDE interfaces or used as standalone libraries to the
command line tools.

You can also take those same core command line tools (as well as some of
the higher level tools) and build versions of them which can be used
for cross compiled development for different architectures. A popular
combination is to build a ARM cross compiler toolchain which runs on
a x86 Linux host and quite of bit of the knowledge used in native builds
will transfer over into the cross compiled builds.

The point here is that the development infrastructure on Linux is well
developed and is very cleanly integrated. People who do Linux development
are used to this and your VMS version would have to match these standards
at a minimum. A set of manual compile/link/run commands simply are not
going to cut it for many people.

> Simon talks about cross platform development environments.  Would this 
> really be a large market?  No idea.
>

Probably not in the overall market, but one of the reasons Linux is where
it is now is because it captured the hearts of students and other people
outside of the work environment such as hobbyists. Those people then moved
into a work environment and pushed what they knew (Linux).

Those types of people are the same types of people who would be open
to exploring other platforms if they felt it offered something new and
are also the same types of people who like to do embedded work. It gives
you another hook to get them interested in new VMS if you can think up
something new rather than achieving feature parity with Linux.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/19/2013 1:37:46 AM
On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 19:51:41 +0100, Wilm Boerhout
<wboerhout-remove@this-gmail.com> wrote:

>Subcommandante XDelta mentioned  on 17-11-2013 13:20:
>
>[snipped]
>
>> Rebooting the VMS ecosystem is not impossible, however, nor will it be
>> a romp in the park, either. The fact that HP and Stromasys in their
>> VMS business models are thanatophilic necrophages, does not help
>> matters in the slightest. Though to Stromasyss credit, they do
>> actively engage in research and development of their emulators.
>
>[and snipped]
>
>Esteemed Subcommandante,
>
>This vexes me: why do you keep associating the folks @ Stromasys with 
>VMS? Although they retain their software migration capabilities, they 
>are mostly known for their *hardware* emulators for PDP-11, VAX, Alpha, 
>HP-3000 etc.
>
>Or does your organization also have some secret platoons that deal with 
>hardware that needs to be liberated along with the VMS software?
>
>/Wilm

Hello Wilm,

I thought I'd fork a thread, to respond.

I wish we could liberate all unloved DEC hardware to some bright and
shining "Warehouse Of Solitude", with false floors but true security,
in perpetuity, but no, alas, we're strictly attending to software
issues.

As we said in our "36th Anniversary Communique" the VLF do not have a
particularly AXE:: to grind with Stromasys (either VAX or AXP). Due to
seredipitous happenstance we had access to a batch of old CHARONS.

That batch is finite, we've released most and will release the
remainder in due course and then that will be that, kaput, finito.

Quality hardware emulators was on the critical path of the VLF
project, so the happenstance worked out weil; Vernon can be preserved
at existing revision levels on DEC architectures that have been
virtualised.

We associate, accurately, or inaccurately, Stromasys (nee Software
Resources International) primarily with DEC, for surely, they have in
their employ, the greatest concentration of ex-digits on the planet in
all probability.

They may be branching out into other legacy architectures, but their
roots, what they cut their teeth on is DEC - PDP, VAX and AXP.

Secondly, as we are the VLF and as well identify Stromasys ~ DEC,
naturally we would identify Stromasys ~ VMS. :-)

In our "36th Anniversary Communique" speculative analysis of
Stromasys, we were musing on that, Stromasys would be a natural owner
for VMS and in purchasing that asset from HP, they could make a going
concern of it providing real, non-fraudulent, BCS techical support,
before porting VMS to commodity Intel/AMD and ARM x32 and x64 CPUs -
refer to the communique for the full "thesis" on why we think
Stromasys and VMS would be a natural fit.

Such ownership would not contradict their existing business model, but
strengthen it, encouraging enterprises that they can heep using VMS
for their contemporary computing needs as well as virtualise their
legacy systems and not have to consider kamikaze legacy migrations for
the forseeable future, due to legacy hardware or wetware failure, etc,
etc.

Of course, the best owner for VMS would be an industry consortium of
the remaining enterprise, governmental and institutional users, but
that is another story, essayed in other threads.

Both HP and Stromasys are thanatophilic necrophages of the remaining
VMS installation base, HP is a craven and shameful one, however
Stromasys is merely, but not insignificantly, an opportunistic feeder.

HP is happily to kill off the VMS business, and anyway Microsoft does
not want VMS ported to "their" Intel and ARM CPU architectures, and HP
supinely complies, it seems.

If Stromasys owned VMS, it could still be a thanatophilic necrophage
of DEC and AXP (and Itanium) hardware, but it could also slowly but
surely with a bit of investment, start to grow VMS as a significant
income generation engine, once it's ported to the commodity Intel and
ARM CPU architectures, in spite of Microsoft; all during the while
making money providing quality real BCS technical support services to
the existing and new VMS customers.

Is there anyone in HP's employ that can still properly analyze a crash
dump in SDA? - I doubt it. The virile bulls of VMS TSG and Engineering
have been exsanguinated and eviscerated long ago, and all that remains
are cow hides propped up on wooden sticks for legs with tin-boxen that
go "moo!".

Yeah, I know, starting to repeat and ramble.

Whilst the open-source SIMH hardware emulation project is of great
quality, and no doubt other commercial VAX/AXP emulators are quite the
ticket as well, the Stromasys CHARONs are technically brilliant and
immaculately exacting emulators, they are quality, no doubt about it.

DEC had a ethos of quality with the trinity of its hardware and
software and documentation of both, both public and internal, and
indeed had an ethos of quality in how the corporation comported itself
internally in treating its human resources, as a corporate culture;
Digital was not a bad place to work at all.

That culture of DEC quality lives on, to an attenuated, qualified,
degree at Stromasys, as evidence by the technical quality of the
CHARON emulators, the VLF just think that that guttering pilot-light
of old-school DEC quality could also be used to ignite the renaissance
of VMS as well.

We say "qualified" quality, because of the fact that they have
historically offered (and still do) their CHARON emulators running on
Windows O/S; it is a joke, for BCS - what were (are) they thinking?

And it is a very, very, bad joke indeed, if any of the CHARON systems
ever have controlled industrial processes like steel milling, or
components of a nuclear reactor, for instance, where life, limb and
environment are at serious risk of sustained catastrophe, should the
CHARON host O/S fail.

They should be ashamed of themselves for ever offering their emulators
on Windows at all, even for legacy BCS accounting systems, it was, and
remains, disrespectful of their customers actual BCS legacy needs.

Although Stromasys is getting better, in having their emulators
running on Linux, and rolling their own integrated distros, IIRC, they
still ill serve their PDP-11 and VAX customers, since the only
available CHARONS require Windows.

They should have only offered their emulators on hard RTOS linuxen, or
QNX, from the get go. It boggles the mind and beggars the imagination
why they didn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTLinux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QNX

There any many mysteries in this Universe, few are guaranteed to be
comprehensible.

Before I totally peripatetically peramble off topic, one other
criticism the VLF have of Stromasys is the following (bearing in mind
the VLF most definitely have not done a thorough functional audit of
Stromasyss operations):

The Stromasys marketing department probably have a very good idea of
the PDP, VAX, AXP and Itanic installation base out there, they'd ought
to, it is their bread and butter after all.

Everytime a customer starts to virtualise their hardware, it is a win
for Stromasys, but the question must be asked: "Is perfectly good DEC
hardware being retired prematurely?"

Secondly it must be asked: "Is the retired DEC hardware being fully
integrated into the DEC second-hand, enterprise and hobbyist
ecologies, or is it being consigned to e-waste and scrap metal,
unloved and undocumented?"

Everytime Stromasys wins new business, is it doing right by the old
DEC hardware? 

Of course if Stromasys is doing the honourable thing by the old DEC
hardware, then we are happy to stand corrected, and rescind this
speculative criticism.

Of course, "business rationality" that benchmark of "oxymoron" would
predict, that Stromasys does nothing at all, since it would increase
the pool of potential spare parts and functioning whole hardware, at
the very least which is not in their self interest.

Sigh.

Any way our criticisms of Stromasys are non contingent on our
motivations for RCEing a few of their old CHARONS - we did that to
preserve Vernon permanently in independent, autonomous, renegage,
hobbyist systems - and to establish the basis for the potential
rebooting of the VMS mind-share ecology amongst the current
generations of young computer-science graduates.

Anyway, Wilm, in summary - why do we conflate Stromasys with VMS?

Because we think Stromasys could make a real go of it, for the next
thirty five years and beyond, broaden their horizons from merely
slumming it being the opportunistic thanatophilic necrophage of the
best operating system and operating system culture that has ever been
designed by the mind of man.

Quality should never die.

Best regards,

S.C. XDelta
p.p. The VMS Liberation Front
http://is.gd/VLF_MANiFESTO
0
vlf (63)
11/19/2013 3:21:38 AM
On 13-11-18 19:14, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> I think it will be a very intersting theme for reseachers on computers 
> archeology how "2500 mission critical sites" supported by the "best OS 
> of the world" had not more than twelve defenders.


VMS is not a sentient being which works for its own success and self
preservation. It is product owned by a corporation.  When Digital, under
Palmer sent the word out that VMS was out, many customers who had been
loyal to VMS because they hoped Palmer would turn things around realised
that Palmer wasn't going to bring VMS back to health. VMS lost a lot of
supporters and media exposure in the 1990s.

When the owner of a product wants its product to succeed, it makes sense
for organisations such as DECUS to work with Digital to work towards the
same goal. Very visble and succesful in the 1980s during heydays of VMS.

When the owner wants the product gone, it doesn't make sense for loyal
folks to continue to go against the owner,s wishes and continye to
promote the product because at the end of the day, the owner sets the
direction, sets the development budgets (or lack thereof) and controls
the product.

With the exception of a couple of short periods (such as Pfeiffer's
short tenure after the DIgital purchase), there was no real hope of a
turn around. Lack of hope made for fewer supporters.

During HP's tenure, not only did the remaining hopefulls come to realise
that HP wasn't going to market VMS, they also realised that VMS
development was slowing to a crawl, and more importantly, that HP had
committed to not port VMS beyond the dead-end IA64. Heck, now, we won't
even see VMS on Poulson.

And this is why we are left with those 12 defenders you talk about. We
are talking about 20 years of negative signals from the owner of VMS
which decimaded the base of supporters.


0
11/19/2013 5:33:25 AM
Le 19/11/2013 04:21, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
> And it is a very, very, bad joke indeed, if any of the CHARON systems
> ever have controlled industrial processes like steel milling, or
> components of a nuclear reactor, for instance, where life, limb and
> environment are at serious risk of sustained catastrophe, should the
> CHARON host O/S fail.
I quote this from a very interesting and large analysis.

Not to say there is no evidence to Orph�e having a deal with Charon : we 
all know the end of the story.

The point here is : some hight quality hardware and software are for the 
time at the heart of some industrial processes. And the contemporary 
process in IT is killing these software and hardware.

Why ? BECAUSE these products are at the heart. Heart is not like skin, 
you don't see it. The major benefits for IT companies are "in the 
cloud". There are much more benefits selling huge data center to permit 
to billions of fan seeing just-in-time the last opera of Madona and some 
of her colleague : wow ! you need teras !!... than maintain 10 Gigas for 
just, say, control a nuclear reactor.

What is not seen there is : if you shut down the reactor, you need some 
dynamos to have the huge funny datacenters going on.

Say it another way. We don't care about life, environment, and all this 
emotionality, dear subcommandate. We talk about money. And our wall 
street companies have an heart, too. The issue is : to going making 
money with Madona operas, you need too some heart in your own IT, and if 
you don't do anything you have risks of crash.

In another words, the VMS community can argue like that : "yes, our 
domain is not a two numbers purcent of benefit, yes, but you need us to 
go on". VMS is here a placeholder for ("life, health, environment, 
quality, professional,..."). As some progress in science benefit as a 
side effect of wars or proud of the nations, heart of IT can survive as 
a side effect of beautifull skin IT.

What way ? Dear subcommandante, I am a little bit afraid by your theme 
of liberation or revolution. I, french, hear some De Gaule call for 
underground resistance in your method. But is this method sustainable 
our days ? I don't know.

Perhaps we could do some things making the professionnal community 
appear like a propositional strength, the "heart" saying something about 
the "health" of the companies.

This new role, is not the same of users club like DECUS. Decus is an 
heteronomous association, and what J.F. Mezei says around is right : 
life of club users depends on companies strategic decisions. On the 
other hand, pure autonomous associations like that one for Linux 
ecosystem, for example, cannot address, I think, issues dealing with 
heart of industries or big companies.

So what ? Mission critical IT is going to be a specialised and not so 
big market, with its own needs and logics. We need some "cardiologist" 
(I don't think Somatrysis is such a "cardiologist") wich sees its 
interest in this specialised market, and knows how to sell his products. 
We need a community which can describe its specific needs, and do invent 
a knew role of consultant for "health" of companies.

G�rard Calliet
0
11/19/2013 7:45:30 AM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>
>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>
> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
> presentation?
>

Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.

Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
0
11/19/2013 7:53:49 AM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:31:
> In article <l6dp49$ui2$1@dont-email.me>, David Froble
> <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
>>> "It would likely cost far less to port the unique portions of VMS to
>>> Linux than to upgrade all of VMS to modern standards."
>>
>> I see these vague comments from time to time.  Actually, too many times.
>>    What I've rarely seen is a list of just what these modern standards
>> actually are.
>>
>> So, omitting the desktop and anything requiring a GUI, just what does
>> VMS need, and how hard would it be to provide it.
>
> First, I would mention desktop and GUI.  I am generally happy with
> DECwindows and CDE, but a modern web browser would be nice.

Modern web browsers are running on modern/laptop/"pad" environments.

What is importent is to have server tools to be able to feed
these end-user environments with web applications and pages.



0
11/19/2013 7:55:52 AM
Le 18/11/2013 09:50, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
> On Mon, 18 Nov 2013 09:34:18 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>
>> Le 18/11/2013 05:11, BillPedersen a �crit :
>>> On Sunday, November 17, 2013 9:27:24 PM UTC-5, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 17 Nov 2013 23:31:49 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
>>>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>>>>> Le 17/11/2013 13:20, Subcommandante XDelta a �crit :
>>>>>> Gerard, there was no intent to hijack your thread, we just thought a
>>>>>> hello was in order.
>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download VMS friends season
>>>>> 2. You would know new information about hijackers (seen by some french
>>>>> very famous humorist). I cannot say more, here.
>>>>> G�rard Calliet
>>>>
>>>> Hello Gerard,
>>>>
>>>> I have perused the HP-Interex website. I have discovered that most
>>>> pages have non-working weblinks, and I would recommend that you walk
>>>> through each page and check each link.
>>>>
>>>> For instance:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-engl/4406227
>>>>
>>>> These links do not work:
>>>>
>>>> "Questions to HP from Swedish OpenVMS customers"
>>>>
>>>> and the two:
>>>>
>>>> "With a little help of VMS' Friends"
>>>>
>>>> links.
>>>>
>>>> On the survey page:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.hp-interex.fr/openvms-survey-en/4395105
>>>>
>>>> The downloadable PDF link is broken.
>>>>
>>>> No links working in Opera and IE, but also apparent from the page
>>>>
>>>> code.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> You might want to check your configuration and the links again.
>>> All of those that you mention worked and still work fine for me.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Bill.
>>>
>> Perhaps I have been hijacked for a moment, dear captains, by
>> microsoft-and-hp plot ? :=)
>
> Sorry for the confusion. No, this one cannot be sheeted home to HP and
> MS this time. :-)
>
> It was due to some infelicitous interaction between the otherwise
> excellent "Ad Muncher" and your website; when I disabled filtering in
> it, all the links work as expected.
>
> http://www.admuncher.com/
>
> With apologies.
>
Happy to help admuncher maintainers with real cases :=)

G�rard Calliet

0
11/19/2013 8:06:11 AM
Le 19/11/2013 08:53, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>
>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>
>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>> presentation?
>>
>
> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>
> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
I have to say there that I am an ecologist.

I see the world as many ecosystems living together, which is some other 
upper-level ecosystem. Ecosystem is a complex interdependent thing, 
depending on other complex interdependent things.

And, like an ecologist, I think we have to deal with instinction of 
exosystem, bio-diversity, etc,... as a very urgent problematic.

So, I don't think about VMS as THE OS, but as one OS. Microsoft seems to 
be the major PPT ecosystem, for now, and I hope some good linuxes or mac 
could be strong other PPT OS, and, why not, good OS for other tasks. For 
now, in a word where you need slides to say things in business, I use 
PPT some times.

The point is not mourning about some pure and unique OS, the point is 
fighting for OS-diversity, as usefull as bio-diversity.
0
11/19/2013 8:20:03 AM
On 11/18/2013 3:31 PM, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
 >
 > Apart from desktop and GUI:
 >
 >   o  non-buggy TCPIP

TCP/IP Services customers would have fewer TCP/IP problems if they were 
using MultiNet. We also actively fix problems that are found in MultiNet....

This commercial message brought to you by....

Hunter
------
Hunter Goatley, Process Software, http://www.process.com/
goathunter@goatley.com
0
goathunter (122)
11/19/2013 12:19:35 PM
In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>
>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>
>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>> presentation?
>>
> 
> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
> 
> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?

Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
competes with your product and that they will likely find easier to use
and more practical in the modern IT world than your product....  Well,
you do the math....

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/19/2013 2:02:43 PM
re: Powerpoint on VMS.

Most software should be able to produce a .PDF version of their
proprietary format. I think even powerpoint can.



0
11/19/2013 7:35:38 PM
On Tuesday, 19 November 2013 07:53:49 UTC, Jan-Erik Soderholm  wrote:
> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>=20
> > In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>=20
> > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>=20
> >
>=20
> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>=20
> >
>=20
> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>=20
> > presentation?
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>=20
> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>=20
> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?

De facto delivery standard for a lot of presentations I see these days (at =
least where the focus is on content rather than clipart (or modern equivale=
nt) etc) seems to be PDF rather than PPT. Which presumably leads some peopl=
e to another question (how do I read PDF on VMS, which of course is answere=
d in the VMS FAQ section 13 or so). PDF not PPT typically loses the notes a=
nd such, but does anyone still use those?

Over here, I just continue to accept that one size does not usually fit all=
, and one tool (other than a Birmingham screwdriver [1]) does not usually a=
ddress all requirements. Use the right tool for the job.

Even though modern Linux is remarkably flexible, far more flexible than man=
y of the other possible options (what else does routers to supercomputers),=
 it still doesn't suit everyone (sometimes more for political rather than t=
echnical reasons).=20

[1] The urban dictionary's definition is almost relevant in the context of =
graphics drivers.
0
11/19/2013 7:45:42 PM
On Tuesday, 19 November 2013 19:45:42 UTC, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk  wrote:
> On Tuesday, 19 November 2013 07:53:49 UTC, Jan-Erik Soderholm  wrote:
>=20
> > Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for hi=
s
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > presentation?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > >
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De facto delivery standard for a lot of presentations I see these days (a=
t least where the focus is on content rather than clipart (or modern equiva=
lent) etc) seems to be PDF rather than PPT. Which presumably leads some peo=
ple to another question (how do I read PDF on VMS, which of course is answe=
red in the VMS FAQ section 13 or so). PDF not PPT typically loses the notes=
 and such, but does anyone still use those?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Over here, I just continue to accept that one size does not usually fit a=
ll, and one tool (other than a Birmingham screwdriver [1]) does not usually=
 address all requirements. Use the right tool for the job.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Even though modern Linux is remarkably flexible, far more flexible than m=
any of the other possible options (what else does routers to supercomputers=
), it still doesn't suit everyone (sometimes more for political rather than=
 technical reasons).=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> [1] The urban dictionary's definition is almost relevant in the context o=
f graphics drivers.

Of course the right tool for reading and posting to newsgroups is...

not GoogleGroups.

Sorry for the long lines etc. 
0
11/19/2013 7:47:56 PM
On 11/17/2013 5:20 AM, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
> It it highly unlikely that HP has had any new VMS business in the time
> that it has owned it.

Actually, there have been new VMS customers added during this period.

0
11/19/2013 9:10:51 PM
JF Mezei wrote 2013-11-19 20:35:
> re: Powerpoint on VMS.
>
> Most software should be able to produce a .PDF version of their
> proprietary format. I think even powerpoint can.
>
>
>

Of course! Presentations should never be supplied in the native format
(if not needed for the presentation as such). A PPT file can in most
cases veru well be saved as PDF (easy in later MS Offices).
0
11/19/2013 11:03:28 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-19 15:02:
> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>
>>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>> presentation?
>>>
>>
>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>
>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>
> Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
> product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
> competes with your product...

But that is/was not the case, was it? Windows, MAC-OS and other *desktop*
OS'es has not competed with VMS for decades.

The very thought that distributing a couple of slides about VMS
as a PowerPoint presentation would hurt VMS in anyway, is idiotic.
It's the oposit of course. Sending it out in the format that (close
to) noone can read, would hurt VMS far more!

> and that they will likely find easier to use and more practical in
> the modern IT world than your product....

Then you, as a true professional, should use the "easier to use and
more practical" tool, of course. Always. For *some* tasks I find VMS
to be the "easier to use and more practical" tool. Distributing
presentations is *not* amongs those tasks...

Regards,
Jan-Erik.
0
11/19/2013 11:14:04 PM
In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
> >
> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
> > presentation?
> 
> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
market share.

> You will
> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.

Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
any system can display it.

> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?

No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.

0
helbig (5064)
11/19/2013 11:35:12 PM
In article <l6f5i8$ugp$2@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> Modern web browsers are running on modern/laptop/"pad" environments.
> 
> What is importent is to have server tools to be able to feed
> these end-user environments with web applications and pages.

I don't see a reason not to have both.

0
helbig (5064)
11/19/2013 11:35:44 PM
In article <l6gk4r$jkk$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, Keith Parris
<keithparris_deletethis@yahoo.com> writes: 

> On 11/17/2013 5:20 AM, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
> > It it highly unlikely that HP has had any new VMS business in the time
> > that it has owned it.
> 
> Actually, there have been new VMS customers added during this period.

OK, give us the numbers: how many new customers, and how many existing 
customers left?

0
helbig (5064)
11/19/2013 11:37:24 PM
In article <l6grbs$c98$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-19 15:02:
>> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
>> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>>>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>>
>>>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>> presentation?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>
>> Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
>> product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
>> competes with your product...
>
>But that is/was not the case, was it? Windows, MAC-OS and other *desktop*
>OS'es has not competed with VMS for decades.
>
>The very thought that distributing a couple of slides about VMS
>as a PowerPoint presentation would hurt VMS in anyway, is idiotic.
>It's the oposit of course. Sending it out in the format that (close
>to) noone can read, would hurt VMS far more!

PDF!  Where the P in PDF is for Portable?

What's the P in PPT for?  Power Puke Trash

People are now reading a good portion of their electronic content on their
mobile devices -- iPhones, iPads and Android based devices.  Please remind
me just how PPT is a better distribution medium in this new world order?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/19/2013 11:40:20 PM
In article <l6grbs$c98$1@news.albasani.net>,
	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-19 15:02:
>> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
>> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>>>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>>
>>>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>> presentation?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>
>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>
>> Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
>> product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
>> competes with your product...
> 
> But that is/was not the case, was it? Windows, MAC-OS and other *desktop*
> OS'es has not competed with VMS for decades.
> 
> The very thought that distributing a couple of slides about VMS
> as a PowerPoint presentation would hurt VMS in anyway, is idiotic.
> It's the oposit of course. Sending it out in the format that (close
> to) noone can read, would hurt VMS far more!
> 
>> and that they will likely find easier to use and more practical in
>> the modern IT world than your product....
> 
> Then you, as a true professional, should use the "easier to use and
> more practical" tool, of course. Always. For *some* tasks I find VMS
> to be the "easier to use and more practical" tool. Distributing
> presentations is *not* amongs those tasks...

Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
task. Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle (eventually lost)
to keep any presence of VMS around.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill6098 (13)
11/19/2013 11:43:07 PM
In article <l6gsjg$6j1$1@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
>> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>> >
>> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>> > presentation?
>> 
>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.
> 
> Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
> support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
> market share.
> 
>> You will
>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
> 
> Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
> any system can display it.

Maybe because PDF is not a presentation tool at all but a document
generation tool.

> 
>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
> 
> No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
> this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
> campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.

Actually, Honda's are American made.  As are Toyotas, BMW's and VW's.

You can't tell country of origin from the name.  Pontiacs have been
made in Canada for decades.  And Chrysler used to belong to Europeans.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill6098 (13)
11/19/2013 11:49:12 PM
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 14:10:51 -0700, Keith Parris
<keithparris_deletethis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 11/17/2013 5:20 AM, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>> It it highly unlikely that HP has had any new VMS business in the time
>> that it has owned it.
>
>Actually, there have been new VMS customers added during this period.

Dear Mr Parris,

In what transpires, no barrows are being push, no agendas romped
through the park, it is purely driven out of unalloyed curiousity.

Secondly, I am not asking for an unredacted copy of the full HP VMS
customer database. :-)

Not that I presume from your response that you have access to such;
after all, any new VMS custom at HP would have been water-cooler
network gossip for some considerable time. ;-)

For those new VMS customers at HP could you provide for each customer:

1. Year of new business.
2. Size of entity or scale of installation.
3. Principal country.
4. Whether the new business is "ab initio" or derived.
5. Whether the new custom was self-starting or derived from HP sales
agency.

For #4 what I mean, is whether the new customer is a fresh shop that
has chosen VMS technology for it's enterprise computing needs or
whether the new customer is the result of a corporate reboot and rinse
of an old customer who was a VMS shop, or if the new customer is the
result of a merger, demerger or hiving off of a subsidiary of an
existing VMS shop or shops.

No umbrage taken, of course, if you cannot answer in any detail or
only partial detail.

Thank you.

Best regards,

S.C. XDelta
0
vlf (63)
11/19/2013 11:49:19 PM
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 08:45:30 +0100, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)"
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:

:

>So what ? Mission critical IT is going to be a specialised and not so 
>big market, with its own needs and logics. We need some "cardiologist" 
>(I don't think Somatrysis is such a "cardiologist") wich sees its 
>interest in this specialised market, and knows how to sell his products. 
>We need a community which can describe its specific needs, and do invent 
>a knew role of consultant for "health" of companies.
>
>G�rard Calliet

All well said, Gerard.
0
vlf (63)
11/20/2013 3:01:24 AM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply schrieb:

> 
> No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
> this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
> campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.
> 

Exactly. You got it. The others didn't.
And these are the guys who always whine
about inferior marketing from DEC/Compaq/DEC.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 7:39:52 AM
Bill Gunshannon schrieb:

> Maybe because PDF is not a presentation tool at all but a document
> generation tool.

I make all presentations in PDF
(allows me to use LaTeX).
Most of the time, copies of the slides are
asked for as PDF anyway.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 7:47:38 AM
Bill Gunshannon schrieb:

> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
> task. Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle (eventually lost)
> to keep any presence of VMS around.

Given your adverse opinion as far as the VMS desktop is concerned,
what did you advertise:
a boring VTxxx CLI connected to a VS31xx vs a shiny new PC
with Windoze-what-have-you?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 7:52:44 AM
Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-20 00:43:
> In article <l6grbs$c98$1@news.albasani.net>,
> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-19 15:02:
>>> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
>>> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>>>>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>>>
>>>>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>>> presentation?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>>
>>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>>
>>> Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
>>> product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
>>> competes with your product...
>>
>> But that is/was not the case, was it? Windows, MAC-OS and other *desktop*
>> OS'es has not competed with VMS for decades.
>>
>> The very thought that distributing a couple of slides about VMS
>> as a PowerPoint presentation would hurt VMS in anyway, is idiotic.
>> It's the oposit of course. Sending it out in the format that (close
>> to) noone can read, would hurt VMS far more!
>>
>>> and that they will likely find easier to use and more practical in
>>> the modern IT world than your product....
>>
>> Then you, as a true professional, should use the "easier to use and
>> more practical" tool, of course. Always. For *some* tasks I find VMS
>> to be the "easier to use and more practical" tool. Distributing
>> presentations is *not* amongs those tasks...
>
> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
> task. Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle

But why then? What was the benefit?
Why did you fight in the first place?


> (eventually lost)
> to keep any presence of VMS around.
>
> bill
>

0
11/20/2013 8:36:29 AM
In article <l6hpod$dgk$1@solani.org>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
> 
>> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
>> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
>> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
>> task. Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle (eventually lost)
>> to keep any presence of VMS around.
> 
> Given your adverse opinion as far as the VMS desktop is concerned,
> what did you advertise:
> a boring VTxxx CLI connected to a VS31xx vs a shiny new PC
> with Windoze-what-have-you?

No, as a matter of fact, my VMS machines were the only ones at the
University (yes, the University used to be a VMS shop for both
administrative and academic computing) that offered DECWindows support
and that is what most of my students used.  As for Windows, I don't
particularly like it, but I am professional enough to accept that the
IT world has made it their standard.  Calling it nasty names and
pretending that anything is better is really pretty silly and probably
says a lot to the non-VMS community about the people still clinging
to a dead OS.

You know, even before there was VMS there was Primos.  A really nice
OS and probably more secure in it's infancey than VMS ever was.  I
used to maintain Primos systems at the system level.  But, it went
away.  I didn't whine and cry.  I didn't try to bring it back from
the dead.  I did publicly admit that it was the mis-management of its
owners that killed it, just like VMS.  I got over it, found a new job
and got on with my life.  Probably time some people here did the same.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 1:17:45 PM
In article <l6hsad$46m$1@news.albasani.net>,
	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-20 00:43:
>> In article <l6grbs$c98$1@news.albasani.net>,
>> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote 2013-11-19 15:02:
>>>> In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>,
>>>> 	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-18 22:24:
>>>>>> In article <l6dj6a$64e$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>>>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>>>> presentation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations. You will
>>>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>>>
>>>> Because forcing people to use Windows doesn't hurt beer, car or hair-care
>>>> product sales.  But when you force people to use a product that directly
>>>> competes with your product...
>>>
>>> But that is/was not the case, was it? Windows, MAC-OS and other *desktop*
>>> OS'es has not competed with VMS for decades.
>>>
>>> The very thought that distributing a couple of slides about VMS
>>> as a PowerPoint presentation would hurt VMS in anyway, is idiotic.
>>> It's the oposit of course. Sending it out in the format that (close
>>> to) noone can read, would hurt VMS far more!
>>>
>>>> and that they will likely find easier to use and more practical in
>>>> the modern IT world than your product....
>>>
>>> Then you, as a true professional, should use the "easier to use and
>>> more practical" tool, of course. Always. For *some* tasks I find VMS
>>> to be the "easier to use and more practical" tool. Distributing
>>> presentations is *not* amongs those tasks...
>>
>> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
>> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
>> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
>> task. Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle
> 
> But why then? What was the benefit?
> Why did you fight in the first place?

Because it had uses.  And I thought that CS students should know that
there is more to the IT world than Windows and Unix.  Even today I keep
trying to get the Department to get involved in IBM's Academic Alliance.
I think the students shuold learn about and even become familiar with
zSystems and things like CICS.  And other things, too.  

Just for people's information, one of the things that VMS offered that
our other OSes did not was COBOL.  Sadly, as soon as COBOL became available
on the Unix servers use of VMS all but stopped.  At that point, the writing
was truly on the wall.  VMS lasted a couple more years with the periodic
curious student trying it but never any serious use.  I even tried to get
students to take on porting OpenSource stuff to VMS as their senior project.
But, alas, event hen VMS had nothing to offer to any but the initiated.

> 
> 
>> (eventually lost)
>> to keep any presence of VMS around.

bill


-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 1:23:56 PM
In article <l6hper$cfh$1@solani.org>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
> 
>> Maybe because PDF is not a presentation tool at all but a document
>> generation tool.
> 
> I make all presentations in PDF
> (allows me to use LaTeX).
> Most of the time, copies of the slides are
> asked for as PDF anyway.

And you have a tool that will display the PDF full-screen when projected
and allow you to move from slide to slide with just the push of a button
on your laserpointer/computer controller as you stroll around in front of
your audience?

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 1:27:15 PM
In article <l6gsjg$6j1$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
><jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>
>> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>> >
>> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>> > presentation?
>> 
>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.
>
>Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
>support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
>market share.
>
>> You will
>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>
>Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
>any system can display it.
>
>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>
>No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
>this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
>campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.

or...  

http://d17jk93jbxi6p4.cloudfront.net/uimages/39046/main-39046-290d47691b17.jpg


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/20/2013 1:33:17 PM
In article <bf3rljF2kv5U3@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> And you have a tool that will display the PDF full-screen when projected
 
Popular PDF-viewers such as Acrobat or xpdf have a "full screen"
option. 

> and allow you to move from slide to slide with just the push of a button
> on your laserpointer/computer controller as you stroll around in front of
> your audience?

Popular presentation devices (such as PCs and Macs) work happily with
such controllers.
0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 1:35:26 PM
In article <l6hp08$ahv$1@solani.org>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply schrieb:
> 
>> 
>> No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
>> this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
>> campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.
>> 
> 
> Exactly. You got it. The others didn't.
> And these are the guys who always whine
> about inferior marketing from DEC/Compaq/DEC.

You must have missed my other post.  :-)

Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 1:52:24 PM
In article <00ADC953.A01AE250@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <l6gsjg$6j1$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>><jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>>
>>> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>> >
>>> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>> > presentation?
>>> 
>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.
>>
>>Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
>>support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
>>market share.
>>
>>> You will
>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>
>>Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
>>any system can display it.
>>
>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>
>>No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
>>this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
>>campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.
> 
> or...  
> 
> http://d17jk93jbxi6p4.cloudfront.net/uimages/39046/main-39046-290d47691b17.jpg
> 
> 

And after that one try:

              http://www.subaru-sia.com/

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 2:20:24 PM
In article <bf3t4oF2kv5U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:

> 
> You must have missed my other post.  :-)
> 
> Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.

Doesn't matter, they're still japanese cars,
just as BMWs and VWs are german,
they benefit their respective economies.

But the point of the OP was simply:
don't feed the competition.
The simplest marketing law.

Just a little reminder:
A couple of years ago a certain Mr. Shannon was flamed
because he dared to post a VMS related article in doc format.
0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 2:42:33 PM
In article <bf3rfbF2kv5U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
(Bill Gunshannon) writes:
 
> Because it had uses.  And I thought that CS students should know that
> there is more to the IT world than Windows and Unix.  Even today I keep
> trying to get the Department to get involved in IBM's Academic Alliance.
> I think the students shuold learn about and even become familiar with
> zSystems and things like CICS.  And other things, too.  
 
This is certainly worth pursuing. Last time I checked,
you could get quite a bit of educational material, OS media, middleware,
even Cobol and PL/I compilers.
IBM also supports selected Unis to keep their z-universe alive.
0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/20/2013 2:52:16 PM
In article <l6ihop$635$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> In article <bf3t4oF2kv5U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
>> 
>> You must have missed my other post.  :-)
>> 
>> Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.
> 
> Doesn't matter, they're still japanese cars,

Well, first, don't assume from this that I agree with the sentiment, but...

The cars are American Made.  If you are going to start talking about where
the money ends out, for many years you would have had to say the same for
Chrysler.  (I am actually not sure who actually owns them today, but it
may still be foreigners.)

But in any event, the cars are "American Made". 


> just as BMWs and VWs are german,
> they benefit their respective economies.

And ours, as well.  The provide salaries to Americans who spend it on
our economy.  They pay taxes intot he jurisdictions where the plants
are located.

Better than companies like Apple that wave the flag while selling products
with little connection to this country.

Reminds me of the good ole days when the IBM PC was young.  There was
an IBM branded printer that was part of the PC stable.  Came in a box
with "Made in the USA" in large letters on the side.  It was an Epson 
Dot Matrix Printer.  the only part that might have been "Made in the USA"
was the cardboard box.

> 
> But the point of the OP was simply:
> don't feed the competition.
> The simplest marketing law.

And this, I totally agree with.  I mentioned working with Primos earlier.
One of the things that killed Pr1me was when they started selling boxes
that were just rebadges of a competitors products.  They basicly killed
their own, better, product by pushing cheap boxes and putting the profits
in their competitors coffers.

> 
> Just a little reminder:
> A couple of years ago a certain Mr. Shannon was flamed
> because he dared to post a VMS related article in doc format.

Well, being flamed here is much to common for anyone to take it seriously.  :-)

bill


-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 2:59:36 PM
In article <l6iib0$65o$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> In article <bf3rfbF2kv5U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>  
>> Because it had uses.  And I thought that CS students should know that
>> there is more to the IT world than Windows and Unix.  Even today I keep
>> trying to get the Department to get involved in IBM's Academic Alliance.
>> I think the students shuold learn about and even become familiar with
>> zSystems and things like CICS.  And other things, too.  
>  
> This is certainly worth pursuing. Last time I checked,
> you could get quite a bit of educational material, OS media, middleware,
> even Cobol and PL/I compilers.
> IBM also supports selected Unis to keep their z-universe alive.

Sigh...  And it is as promising here as VMS became.  We are/were members.
The faculty "moderator" never did anything.  Never even talked to IBM
about what the program meant.  And attempts to find a faculty member now
who will try it again fall on deaf ears.  And IBM will only talk with a
faculty member.  The only company that offers anything that actually
attracts usage is MicroSoft.  Go figure.....

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 3:24:03 PM
Subcommandante XDelta wrote:

> That culture of DEC quality lives on, to an attenuated, qualified,
> degree at Stromasys, as evidence by the technical quality of the
> CHARON emulators, the VLF just think that that guttering pilot-light
> of old-school DEC quality could also be used to ignite the renaissance
> of VMS as well.
>
> We say "qualified" quality, because of the fact that they have
> historically offered (and still do) their CHARON emulators running on
> Windows O/S; it is a joke, for BCS - what were (are) they thinking?
>
> And it is a very, very, bad joke indeed, if any of the CHARON systems
> ever have controlled industrial processes like steel milling, or
> components of a nuclear reactor, for instance, where life, limb and
> environment are at serious risk of sustained catastrophe, should the
> CHARON host O/S fail.

Although in some quarters that might have been seen as a Good Thing. 
Who know what social engineering those capable of trying to water down
ssh et al might have brought to bear?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#Windows_infection>

"Step 7 software infection
....
Doing so intercepts communications between the WinCC software running
under Windows and the target Siemens PLC devices that the software is
able to configure and program when the two are connected via a data
cable."

> They should be ashamed of themselves for ever offering their emulators
> on Windows at all, even for legacy BCS accounting systems, it was, and
> remains, disrespectful of their customers actual BCS legacy needs.

There was as I recall intense pressure from *somewhere* to have a
Windows host solution.  I also recall that running a Wildfire system
without the mandatory Windows powered console was a
non-starter.  The phrase "non-negotiable" springs to mind here.

> Although Stromasys is getting better, in having their emulators
> running on Linux, and rolling their own integrated distros, IIRC, they
> still ill serve their PDP-11 and VAX customers, since the only
> available CHARONS require Windows.


-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/20/2013 3:50:22 PM
In article <bf3rljF2kv5U3@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <l6hper$cfh$1@solani.org>,
>	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
>> 
>>> Maybe because PDF is not a presentation tool at all but a document
>>> generation tool.
>> 
>> I make all presentations in PDF
>> (allows me to use LaTeX).
>> Most of the time, copies of the slides are
>> asked for as PDF anyway.
>
>And you have a tool that will display the PDF full-screen when projected
>and allow you to move from slide to slide with just the push of a button
>on your laserpointer/computer controller as you stroll around in front of
>your audience?

I would or do, but I'd prefer to use Keynote for presentations.  A strict
bullet points, perhaps, are perfect for a PDF based presentation but mine
have employed animations available with Keynote to truly visually enhance
the the discussion of the topic I was presenting.  Case in point, internal
workings of the Attunity RMS CDC product I developed which I presented at
VMS Bootcamp had numerous "slides" which used animation to display how the
interception of the RMS services for data capture functioned.  Something a
list of bullets simply can not convey.  This presentation was distiled to
..MP4 for those wishing to have the presentation.  I believe that .MP4 is a
more universally supported format than some WEENDOZE video format and it's
even viewable on today's handheld mobile look-at devices.  

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/20/2013 4:45:28 PM
In article <bf3up8F2kv5U6@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00ADC953.A01AE250@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <l6gsjg$6j1$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>>In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>><jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>>>
>>>> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>> >
>>>> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>> > presentation?
>>>> 
>>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.
>>>
>>>Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
>>>support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
>>>market share.
>>>
>>>> You will
>>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>
>>>Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
>>>any system can display it.
>>>
>>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>>
>>>No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
>>>this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
>>>campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.
>> 
>> or...  
>> 
>> http://d17jk93jbxi6p4.cloudfront.net/uimages/39046/main-39046-290d47691b17.jpg
>> 
>> 
>
>And after that one try:
>
>              http://www.subaru-sia.com/

That still does not make it "all american".

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/20/2013 4:55:21 PM
In article <bf412oF2kv5U7@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <l6ihop$635$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
>	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
>> In article <bf3t4oF2kv5U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>>> 
>>> You must have missed my other post.  :-)
>>> 
>>> Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.
>> 
>> Doesn't matter, they're still japanese cars,
>
>Well, first, don't assume from this that I agree with the sentiment, but...
>
>The cars are American Made.  If you are going to start talking about where
>the money ends out, for many years you would have had to say the same for
>Chrysler.  (I am actually not sure who actually owns them today, but it
>may still be foreigners.)
>
>But in any event, the cars are "American Made". 

Nit, they're "Amercian-soil" assembled.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/20/2013 5:06:00 PM
In article <00ADC96F.DA52F428@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <bf3up8F2kv5U6@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <00ADC953.A01AE250@sendspamhere.org>,
>>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> In article <l6gsjg$6j1$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>>>In article <l6f5ed$ugp$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>>><jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>>>>
>>>>> >> Why on earth would anyone use a VMS system to display a ppt ???
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The question should be: why would anyone promoting VMS use ppt for his
>>>>> > presentation?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Because it is the de-facto standard for presentations.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, but that doesn't mean that I and/or the VMS community should 
>>>>support it.  Especially in a situation discussing how VMS has lost 
>>>>market share.
>>>>
>>>>> You will
>>>>> probably reach a larger audience using PPT then some VMS-only tool.
>>>>
>>>>Not a VMS-only tool, a STANDARD tool.  Why not use a PDF file?  Almost 
>>>>any system can display it.
>>>>
>>>>> Why would anyone promoting <anyting-else-then-Windows> use PPT ?
>>>>> Say, a beer, a car or some hair-care product ?
>>>>
>>>>No conflict of interest there.  But using PPT to promote VMS is like 
>>>>this company in Michigan several years ago which had a "buy American" 
>>>>campaign and offered a Honda to the winner.
>>> 
>>> or...  
>>> 
>>> http://d17jk93jbxi6p4.cloudfront.net/uimages/39046/main-39046-290d47691b17.jpg
>>> 
>>> 
>>
>>And after that one try:
>>
>>              http://www.subaru-sia.com/
> 
> That still does not make it "all american".

True, I suppose, in some ways.  What is?

Is Proctor & Gamble?  At least 20 years ago they brought in Japanese
consultants who totally chaned the way many things were done to make
them emulate a Japanese business.  Some (my self included) think this
was disastrous.

Do you do Agile?  Guess where that came from.  So, is any company using
Agile still technically an American company or have they been subverted?

I am sure there are many who love this "global econmy" stuff.  And there
is little those of uas who don't can do about it.  But does it mean there
are, in fact, no real "Made in America" companies?

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 5:12:13 PM
In article <00ADC971.57696E73@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <bf412oF2kv5U7@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <l6ihop$635$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
>>	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
>>> In article <bf3t4oF2kv5U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu
>>> (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> You must have missed my other post.  :-)
>>>> 
>>>> Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.
>>> 
>>> Doesn't matter, they're still japanese cars,
>>
>>Well, first, don't assume from this that I agree with the sentiment, but...
>>
>>The cars are American Made.  If you are going to start talking about where
>>the money ends out, for many years you would have had to say the same for
>>Chrysler.  (I am actually not sure who actually owns them today, but it
>>may still be foreigners.)
>>
>>But in any event, the cars are "American Made". 
> 
> Nit, they're "Amercian-soil" assembled.

Just like Fords, Chevys and Dodges.  Or do you actually believe they are
made entorely with American made materials?  And, at various points in
their history all of these companies have sold cars under their branding
that were totally imported.

Do you think that Alpha or Itanium box you are running VMS on contains
only American Made parts?  The last VMS box to be able to make that claim
would have been the VAX.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/20/2013 5:17:38 PM
Michael Kraemer <m.kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:
> In article <bf3t4oF2kv5U4@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu

(snip)

>> Hondas are made in America.  Along with Toyotas, BMWs and VWs.
 
> Doesn't matter, they're still japanese cars,
> just as BMWs and VWs are german,
> they benefit their respective economies.

I believe that many of the parts are made in other countries, but maybe
not the home country, either. Seems to me a reasonably sharing of the
economic benefits.

Some (many) years ago there was a tax, I believe on pickup trucks,
that depended on where the chassis and body were put together, some
one company would ship assembled chassis and bodies to the US and put
them together in the US. 

Many US car companies make cars, or parts, in other countries and ship
them to the US. 

And, finally, most American flags are made in China.

-- glen
0
gah (12851)
11/20/2013 8:07:05 PM
Bill Gunshannon <bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu> wrote:

(snip)

> But in any event, the cars are "American Made". 

(snip)

> Reminds me of the good ole days when the IBM PC was young.  There was
> an IBM branded printer that was part of the PC stable.  Came in a box
> with "Made in the USA" in large letters on the side.  It was an Epson 
> Dot Matrix Printer.  the only part that might have been "Made in the USA"
> was the cardboard box.

I am not sure of that by now, but I believe that the users manual was at
least written in the US.  Epson was one of the earlier Japanese
companies to realize that it made a difference. On the other hand, the
Epson service manuals were written in Japan.  I bought an MX-100 not so 
long after they came out, and also the service manual for it.  

I still remember in the manual the discussion about doing some things
serially and others parallely. 

-- glen
0
gah (12851)
11/20/2013 8:13:13 PM
In article <bf412oF2kv5U7@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> The cars are American Made.  If you are going to start talking about where
> the money ends out, for many years you would have had to say the same for
> Chrysler.  (I am actually not sure who actually owns them today, but it
> may still be foreigners.)

   A minority (40% IIRC) is owned by Fiat, which is certainly a foreign 
   company.  The remainder is owned in smaller pieces, mostly American 
   investors like mutual funds.

0
koehler2 (8314)
11/20/2013 10:03:18 PM
In article <bf42gjF2kv5U8@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:

>  The only company that offers anything that actually
> attracts usage is MicroSoft.  Go figure.....

   If you don't have a Gates building yet, then you can be sure your
   faculty wants one.

   Money talks.

0
koehler2 (8314)
11/20/2013 10:04:33 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
> task.

Well, I'd guess that defining those tasks might have some bearing on 
such a statement.  I'm sure I can define tasks that are easiest on VMS.

Regardless, whatever your tasks are, they are what you need tools for, 
and it's prudent to pick the most relevant tools.

> Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle (eventually lost)
> to keep any presence of VMS around.

Well, if you never found VMS to be the best tool for any of your tasks, 
then why did you try to keep a VMS presence???????????????
0
davef3 (3716)
11/20/2013 10:26:11 PM
On 13-11-20 08:23, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> trying to get the Department to get involved in IBM's Academic Alliance.
> I think the students shuold learn about and even become familiar with
> zSystems and things like CICS.  And other things, too. 

Wouldn't HTTP transactions require understanding of of session-less
applications like CICS ?  As such, having CICS doesn't add much to their
experience, does it ?



0
11/20/2013 10:32:27 PM
Le 20/11/2013 15:59, Bill Gunshannon a �crit :
>> Just a little reminder:
>> >A couple of years ago a certain Mr. Shannon was flamed
>> >because he dared to post a VMS related article in doc format.
> Well, being flamed here is much to common for anyone to take it seriously.:-)
>
I think I made a mistake. "PourVMS", in french, means "for VMS". For the 
sake of VMS.

So I was not whining at all,but my words were confusing.

And, second mistake, I talk about some arguments in a (I fear about the 
word) PPT.

The very important war these three letters triggered let me think I had 
made a third mistake.

Some ten years ago, or a little bit more, when VMS was a product of 
quality for mission criticals, with some real professionals doing real 
things, I thought about the GNU project, with its pshychedelic guru, 
like some a curious sect, and thought : oh ! in VMS we are not a lot, 
but, because we don't mix work and ideology, we'll never be a sect.

The PPT war around my proposal to do something means the contrary. We 
are a sacred family, with true believers, agonistic fighters, sacred 
objetcs.

Could you introduce myself to some guru of our chappel ? I have to 
confess, and do penance. I promise to do my best to publish all my works 
by DecWrite or Runoff.
0
11/21/2013 12:48:53 AM
In article <bf3rljF2kv5U3@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> And you have a tool that will display the PDF full-screen when projected
> and allow you to move from slide to slide with just the push of a button
> on your laserpointer/computer controller as you stroll around in front of
> your audience?

Probably.  The last time I gave a talk, I uploaded a PDF of it to the
organizers in advance and they put it on a laptop connected to a
projector.  They gave me a remote control which allowed me to page back
in forth in the full-screen PDF with two buttons and had a laser pointer
operated by a third.  This is bog-standard these days. 

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 12:54:40 AM
On 21/11/13 11:18 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
> Le 20/11/2013 15:59, Bill Gunshannon a �crit :
>>> Just a little reminder:
>>> >A couple of years ago a certain Mr. Shannon was flamed
>>> >because he dared to post a VMS related article in doc format.
>> Well, being flamed here is much to common for anyone to take it
>> seriously.:-)
>>
> I think I made a mistake. "PourVMS", in french, means "for VMS". For the
> sake of VMS.
>
> So I was not whining at all,but my words were confusing.
>
> And, second mistake, I talk about some arguments in a (I fear about the
> word) PPT.
>
> The very important war these three letters triggered let me think I had
> made a third mistake.
>
> Some ten years ago, or a little bit more, when VMS was a product of
> quality for mission criticals, with some real professionals doing real
> things, I thought about the GNU project, with its pshychedelic guru,
> like some a curious sect, and thought : oh ! in VMS we are not a lot,
> but, because we don't mix work and ideology, we'll never be a sect.
>
> The PPT war around my proposal to do something means the contrary. We
> are a sacred family, with true believers, agonistic fighters, sacred
> objetcs.
>
> Could you introduce myself to some guru of our chappel ? I have to
> confess, and do penance. I promise to do my best to publish all my works
> by DecWrite or Runoff.

Bravo!  Bis!  Merci.
0
11/21/2013 6:45:47 AM
In article <528dac1b$0$2901$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>, Mark
Daniel <mark.daniel@wasd.vsm.com.au> writes: 

> > I think I made a mistake. "PourVMS", in french, means "for VMS". For the
> > sake of VMS.

Some might have wondered whether the fact that this sounds like "poor 
VMS" is intentional.  :-|

> > Could you introduce myself to some guru of our chappel ? I have to
> > confess, and do penance. 

Too bad the devil, Carl Lydick, is no longer with us.  :-)

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 6:54:22 AM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:

> I think I made a mistake. "PourVMS", in french, means "for VMS". For the 
> sake of VMS.
> 
> So I was not whining at all,but my words were confusing.

What are you trying to create, another "VAXUS"?

> The PPT war around my proposal to do something means the contrary. We 
> are a sacred family, with true believers, agonistic fighters, sacred 
> objetcs.
> 
> Could you introduce myself to some guru of our chappel ?

In the Holy Church of VMS, everybody is a guru
(or thinks so)

> I have to 
> confess, and do penance.

Your sins are forgiven.
To do penance:
press ten times the "Export-as-PDF" button
of your favourite ppt-creator, and
say twenty times "I'll never ever again
pollute the world with M$-formats"

> I promise to do my best to publish all my works 
> by DecWrite or Runoff.

No, a simple PDF will do.
Or dare I say that the Web's native format is(was) HTML?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/21/2013 7:08:19 AM
>> I promise to do my best to publish all my works by DecWrite or Runoff.
>
> No, a simple PDF will do.
> Or dare I say that the Web's native format is(was) HTML?
>
Hum, I think I'm going to be burnt.

I had a look on our site, and my slides are... in pdf format.

So, when I said "have a look to my PPT", I was just saying "have a look 
to my slides".

The point is : PPT is in my mouth the word for slides, like "frigidaire" 
(a brand) in France was (is) the word for fridge.

The biggest mistake I made. I'm confused.
0
11/21/2013 8:49:41 AM
In article <528dc928$0$2228$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes: 

> I had a look on our site, and my slides are... in pdf format.

:-)

> Hum, I think I'm going to be burnt.

Actually, you have already died, and are now in purgatory, and this is 
the punishment.  :-)

> So, when I said "have a look to my PPT", I was just saying "have a look 
> to my slides".
> 
> The point is : PPT is in my mouth the word for slides, like "frigidaire" 
> (a brand) in France was (is) the word for fridge.

OK, understandable, but still not good.  There are people who think that 
Facebook or Twitter is the web.  Those slightly better informed think 
that the web is the internet.  And how many times have I told people 
that I work with computers but not PCs?  :-)

OK, the point is now moot in your case, but in reply to the suggestion 
that PPT be converted to PDF: Yes, that will make it viewable on more 
platforms, including VMS.  However, why not GENERATE it under VMS, for 
example with LaTeX?  What struck us as strange was singing the praises 
of VMS, but using some non-VMS product to do so.  OK, no longer 
applicable in your case, but this has happened too often.

Of course, if there is NO VMS alternative---for example, I don't know of 
any way to view YouTube videos on VMS---then some sins may be tolerated, 
but if there IS a VMS alternative, especially a good one, then it is 
strange not to use it, especially in the case of a VMS evangelist.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 9:43:54 AM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-21 10:43:
> In article <528dc928$0$2228$426a74cc@news.free.fr>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>
>> I had a look on our site, and my slides are... in pdf format.
>
> :-)
>
>> Hum, I think I'm going to be burnt.
>
> Actually, you have already died, and are now in purgatory, and this is
> the punishment.  :-)
>
>> So, when I said "have a look to my PPT", I was just saying "have a look
>> to my slides".
>>
>> The point is : PPT is in my mouth the word for slides, like "frigidaire"
>> (a brand) in France was (is) the word for fridge.
>
> OK, understandable, but still not good.  There are people who think that
> Facebook or Twitter is the web.  Those slightly better informed think
> that the web is the internet.  And how many times have I told people
> that I work with computers but not PCs?  :-)
>
> OK, the point is now moot in your case, but in reply to the suggestion
> that PPT be converted to PDF: Yes, that will make it viewable on more
> platforms, including VMS.  However, why not GENERATE it under VMS,...

Becuse there are no good/usable (office) tools for that on VMS.

> for example with LaTeX?...

LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!

> What struck us as strange was singing the praises
> of VMS, but using some non-VMS product to do so.

I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...

This is a rather silly discussion. The presentation by
Gerard at the Oracle tech days a few months ago, was one
of the best presentations during those two days...
Fun, important with a nice touch of french... :-)

Jan-Erik.


0
11/21/2013 9:54:04 AM
Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-21 10:43:
> 

>> OK, the point is now moot in your case, but in reply to the suggestion
>> that PPT be converted to PDF: Yes, that will make it viewable on more
>> platforms, including VMS.  However, why not GENERATE it under VMS,...
> 
> 
> Becuse there are no good/usable (office) tools for that on VMS.

There's your pretzel logic again:
There are no such tools so we don't need them.
I wonder where the Linux world would be now
if they thought like you.

> 
>> for example with LaTeX?...
> 
> 
> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, 

There are quite a few IT professionals in academia as well,
and quite a few use LaTeX.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/21/2013 10:59:12 AM
Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-21 11:59:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-21 10:43:
>>
>
>>> OK, the point is now moot in your case, but in reply to the suggestion
>>> that PPT be converted to PDF: Yes, that will make it viewable on more
>>> platforms, including VMS.  However, why not GENERATE it under VMS,...
>>
>>
>> Becuse there are no good/usable (office) tools for that on VMS.
>
> There's your pretzel logic again:
> There are no such tools so we don't need them.

Who says that? It's not *my* logic anyway.
*I* do need presentation and documentation tools.
But I do not need on my VMS systems, they have other
more important things to do.

> I wonder where the Linux world would be now
> if they thought like you.
>
>>
>>> for example with LaTeX?...
>>
>>
>> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it,
>
> There are quite a few IT professionals in academia as well,
> and quite a few use LaTeX.
>

How many are these "quite a few" rellative the IT industry at large?
Is it even a single figure %-age ?

http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2009/BTS24_2009.pdf

"Mathematicians and physicians have circumvented the problem by
using LaTeX software [...] But, as it requires a basic working
knowledge of computer programming, nonprogramming scientists
seldom use LaTeX..."


0
11/21/2013 11:16:11 AM
In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.

Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
soon.

> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!

Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  Should one buy one just to make 
some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
done on VMS.

> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...

Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 11:27:58 AM
In article <l6kq1r$nov$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> >>> for example with LaTeX?...
> >>
> >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it,
> >
> > There are quite a few IT professionals in academia as well,
> > and quite a few use LaTeX.
> 
> How many are these "quite a few" rellative the IT industry at large?
> Is it even a single figure %-age ?

That is completely irrelevant here.  The whole point of the internet is 
that documents on any platform should be accessible from any platform.  
If a VMS person uses tools on VMS to create a PDF file and serve it (on 
VMS) to the world, then it is completely irrelevant how many other 
people do something similar.

> http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2009/BTS24_2009.pdf
> 
> "Mathematicians and physicians have circumvented the problem by
> using LaTeX software [...] But, as it requires a basic working
> knowledge of computer programming, nonprogramming scientists
> seldom use LaTeX..."

Patrick Daly wrote a book on LaTeX and developed many useful things for 
it.  He mentioned that where he worked the secretaries used it.  Yes, to 
DEVELOP it, some basic IT skills are needed, but not to USE it, unless 
typing at a keyboard is a basic working knowledge of computer 
programming (which, I admit, might be the case today).

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 11:31:58 AM
In article <l6jcrc$5u7$1@dont-email.me>,
	David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
>> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
>> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
>> task.
> 
> Well, I'd guess that defining those tasks might have some bearing on 
> such a statement.  I'm sure I can define tasks that are easiest on VMS.

Unless they are tasks that somehow can only be done on VMS, I doubt it.
Remember, "easiest" is subjective.

> 
> Regardless, whatever your tasks are, they are what you need tools for, 
> and it's prudent to pick the most relevant tools.

Exactly.

> 
>> Thus the reason I had to fight so hard a battle (eventually lost)
>> to keep any presence of VMS around.
> 
> Well, if you never found VMS to be the best tool for any of your tasks, 
> then why did you try to keep a VMS presence???????????????

See your comment immediately before this one.  The machines were not my
personal toys.  This was not a Hobbyist System, it was real work.  The
Professors and students inmy department had a need for functions that
could not be practically offered on our other systems, ergo: we also
ran VMS.  It does say something that as soon as these functions could
be done elsewhere they made me get rid of the VMS systems.  Especially
when you consider that all of my faculty except one date back to when
all the academic computing was done on VMS.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 1:04:45 PM
In article <l6kp20$6g1$1@solani.org>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>> Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote 2013-11-21 10:43:
>> 
> 
>>> OK, the point is now moot in your case, but in reply to the suggestion
>>> that PPT be converted to PDF: Yes, that will make it viewable on more
>>> platforms, including VMS.  However, why not GENERATE it under VMS,...
>> 
>> 
>> Becuse there are no good/usable (office) tools for that on VMS.
> 
> There's your pretzel logic again:
> There are no such tools so we don't need them.
> I wonder where the Linux world would be now
> if they thought like you.
> 
>> 
>>> for example with LaTeX?...
>> 
>> 
>> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, 
> 
> There are quite a few IT professionals in academia as well,
> and quite a few use LaTeX.

Hmmm....  I have 8 faculty, 10 grad asst., 1 secretary, 50-60 undergrad
students.  I have one LaTeX user.  I think it wold be safe to remove the
"quite a" and just say that few use LaTeX.
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 1:12:10 PM
On 11/21/2013 6:32 AM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 13-11-20 08:23, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>> trying to get the Department to get involved in IBM's Academic Alliance.
>> I think the students shuold learn about and even become familiar with
>> zSystems and things like CICS.  And other things, too.
>
> Wouldn't HTTP transactions require understanding of of session-less
> applications like CICS ?  As such, having CICS doesn't add much to their
> experience, does it ?
>
>
>
Look to your NSK mates for what is IMHO the foundation of how 
transactions should be conducted on the internet today (TIP)

God bless DECdtm which was way ahead of its time and I hope Jim Johnson 
is still doing well  with WS_Transactions on MS (which seem to have just 
died)

Cheers Richard Maher

PS If someone is building a museum of VMS software and some license it's 
distributed under then please post details here.
0
11/21/2013 1:20:41 PM
In article <l6kqve$q83$2@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <l6kq1r$nov$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
>> >>> for example with LaTeX?...
>> >>
>> >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
>> >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it,
>> >
>> > There are quite a few IT professionals in academia as well,
>> > and quite a few use LaTeX.
>> 
>> How many are these "quite a few" rellative the IT industry at large?
>> Is it even a single figure %-age ?
> 
> That is completely irrelevant here.  The whole point of the internet is 
> that documents on any platform should be accessible from any platform.  
> If a VMS person uses tools on VMS to create a PDF file and serve it (on 
> VMS) to the world, then it is completely irrelevant how many other 
> people do something similar.
> 
>> http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2009/BTS24_2009.pdf
>> 
>> "Mathematicians and physicians have circumvented the problem by
>> using LaTeX software [...] But, as it requires a basic working
>> knowledge of computer programming, nonprogramming scientists
>> seldom use LaTeX..."
> 
> Patrick Daly wrote a book on LaTeX and developed many useful things for 
> it.  He mentioned that where he worked the secretaries used it.  Yes, to 
> DEVELOP it, some basic IT skills are needed, but not to USE it, unless 
> typing at a keyboard is a basic working knowledge of computer 
> programming (which, I admit, might be the case today).

Do you mean the book he published in 1995?  The industry has moved forward
just a bit since then.  My wife has been an acedmic secretary for over 20
years.  She has never used or even heard of LaTeX.  Sorry to burst your
bubble.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 1:26:38 PM
In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
>> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> 
> Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
> other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
> soon.

The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.

> 
>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
>> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
>> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
> 
> Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  

I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
same.

>                                     Should one buy one just to make 
> some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
> a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
> about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
> done on VMS.

Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
tool equivalent to Power Point.


> 
>> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
>> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...
> 
> Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
> slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
> Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
> that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.

Remember my earlier comment about not finding anything that wasn't easier
on a non-VMS system?  Thank you for proving my point.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 1:33:36 PM
In article <bf495hF5hd8U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> Do you think that Alpha or Itanium box you are running VMS on contains
> only American Made parts?  The last VMS box to be able to make that claim
> would have been the VAX.

   That must have been on unsual VAX.  In 11/780 times RAM boards were
   using parts made in Ecuador.

0
koehler2 (8314)
11/21/2013 2:22:34 PM
In article <$ixWKrTXX5cn@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <bf495hF5hd8U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> Do you think that Alpha or Itanium box you are running VMS on contains
>> only American Made parts?  The last VMS box to be able to make that claim
>> would have been the VAX.
> 
>    That must have been on unsual VAX.  In 11/780 times RAM boards were
>    using parts made in Ecuador.
 
Another myth busted.  I guess that means there has really been nothing
American Made in my lifetime.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 2:36:01 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

<snip>

>> 
>>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
>>> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
>>> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
>> 
>> Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
>
> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
> to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
> in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
> who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
> same.

Ah, but finding a PC which actually has a properly configured version of
Microsoft Office can be a challenge.

The last time I ventured onto a semi-public PC, Excel couldn't even
import a CSV file.


>>                                     Should one buy one just to make 
>> some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
>> a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
>> about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
>> done on VMS.
>
> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
> tool equivalent to Power Point.

There were loads of competitors. Lotus SmartSuite, WordPerfect
Office, Star Office and Applixware all had presentation software and
I am sure there were other products around.

And since a decade or so ago, Keynote by Apple and
OpenOffice/LibreOffice, all of which do a reasonable job at reading
PowerPoint files (though certain fonts, especially bullets in my
experience, get subsituted)

Oh, unless I am mistaken there was a thing called DECPresent... :-)

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/21/2013 7:34:21 PM
In article <bf6endFj6pqU2@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> In article <l6jcrc$5u7$1@dont-email.me>,
> 	David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> > Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > 
> >> Well, that explains a lot.  I have never found VMS to be "easier to use"
> >> for any task that I have ever had to do.  And, I have never had any of
> >> the people I support say that they found it "easier to use" for any
> >> task.
> > 
> > Well, I'd guess that defining those tasks might have some bearing on 
> > such a statement.  I'm sure I can define tasks that are easiest on VMS.
> 
> Unless they are tasks that somehow can only be done on VMS, I doubt it.
> Remember, "easiest" is subjective.

Sure.  For me, it is MUCH easier to edit a file on VMS than on any other 
system, because I can use EDT.  Yes, this might be subjective, but that 
doesn't mean it is wrong.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 8:07:37 PM
In article <bf6f5aFj6pqU3@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> Hmmm....  I have 8 faculty, 10 grad asst., 1 secretary, 50-60 undergrad
> students.  I have one LaTeX user.  I think it wold be safe to remove the
> "quite a" and just say that few use LaTeX.

How many write research papers in physics or maths?

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 8:08:15 PM
In article <bf6g0eFj6pqU4@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> Do you mean the book he published in 1995?  

Yes.

> The industry has moved forward
> just a bit since then.  My wife has been an acedmic secretary for over 20
> years.  She has never used or even heard of LaTeX.  Sorry to burst your
> bubble.

The point is that she COULD use it, even if she does not have 
programming skills.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 8:09:11 PM
In article <bf6gdgFj6pqU5@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
> > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
> > soon.
> 
> The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
> in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
> for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.

In physics or maths?

> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
> to a PC.  

It's not a question of access, it's a question which tools one should 
use for the job.

> >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
> > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
> > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
> > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
> > done on VMS.
> 
> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
> tool equivalent to Power Point.

The task was not "make a Power Point presentation", nor "make something 
equivalent to a Power Point presentation", but rather "make a 
presentation".

Let's take a real-world example: http://ae100prg.mff.cuni.cz/abstracts
where you can find a list of participants at a physics conference last
year.  The abstracts are all in PDF, sent in as ASCII text via a web
form (I did so using Mozilla on VMS) and produced by the organizers.
Most of the speakers have put up their presentations.  As you can see,
most are PDF (mine generated with LaTeX, DVIPS and gs on VMS), but a few
are Power Point.  (For some of the talks there are some videos.  OK, I
can't view those on VMS.  However, the main point of this thread is to
create a presentation on VMS which is viewable by all.) 

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 8:16:58 PM
In article <l6lp7f$6ib$2@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <bf6f5aFj6pqU3@mid.individual.net>,
> bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 
> 
>> Hmmm....  I have 8 faculty, 10 grad asst., 1 secretary, 50-60 undergrad
>> students.  I have one LaTeX user.  I think it wold be safe to remove the
>> "quite a" and just say that few use LaTeX.
> 
> How many write research papers in physics or maths?

Well, let's see.  All the Computer Engineering students in the Physics
Department have accounts on our survers because they have to take CS
courses, too.  And I have the only servers they have access to that
has LaTeX on it.  And none of them use it.  We are the CS Department
but I guess that doesn't fall into your "physics or maths".  The
professors (and even the occaisional student) frequently do papers
for various conferences. They use MS Word.  We have one professor, a
math background, though, who use it.   No students (not even the grad
students who all have to write a Masters Thesis for formal printing
in a hardcover book) to graduate.  Want to guess what they write it
with?

Heck, I just wrote my whole Java program for the Windows Servers using
vi.  People here couldn't believe I didn't use jGrasp or Eclipse.  vi
is just soooooo  ASCII.


bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 8:25:06 PM
In article <bf78h2FoitlU1@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> >> Hmmm....  I have 8 faculty, 10 grad asst., 1 secretary, 50-60 undergrad
> >> students.  I have one LaTeX user.  I think it wold be safe to remove the
> >> "quite a" and just say that few use LaTeX.
> > 
> > How many write research papers in physics or maths?
> 
> Well, let's see.  All the Computer Engineering students in the Physics
> Department have accounts on our survers because they have to take CS
> courses, too.  And I have the only servers they have access to that
> has LaTeX on it.  And none of them use it.  We are the CS Department
> but I guess that doesn't fall into your "physics or maths".  

Right.  I said almost all of physics, and many other fields.  Not CS.

Almost all physics papers are posted to http://arXiv.org .  Almost all 
are in LaTeX.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 8:32:50 PM
In article <l6lpnq$6ib$4@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <bf6gdgFj6pqU5@mid.individual.net>,
> bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 
> 
>> > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
>> > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
>> > soon.
>> 
>> The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
>> in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
>> for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
> 
> In physics or maths?

At least in Computer Science, which I would think meets both criteria.
The professors in the Physics Dept. don't have access to LaTeX at all
unless they happen to have it on their PC's.  And knowing them for the
past 25 years, I doubt any of them has even seen LaTeX in the past 20.

> 
>> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
>> to a PC.  
> 
> It's not a question of access, it's a question which tools one should 
> use for the job.

True.  And the standard tool today is not LaTeX it is Word.

> 
>> >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
>> > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
>> > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
>> > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
>> > done on VMS.
>> 
>> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
>> tool equivalent to Power Point.
> 
> The task was not "make a Power Point presentation", nor "make something 
> equivalent to a Power Point presentation", but rather "make a 
> presentation".

Yes, it was.  The original poster specifically said a ppt.  And that is
Power Point.

> 
> Let's take a real-world example: http://ae100prg.mff.cuni.cz/abstracts
> where you can find a list of participants at a physics conference last
> year.  The abstracts are all in PDF, sent in as ASCII text via a web
> form (I did so using Mozilla on VMS) and produced by the organizers.
> Most of the speakers have put up their presentations.  As you can see,
> most are PDF (mine generated with LaTeX, DVIPS and gs on VMS), but a few
> are Power Point.  (For some of the talks there are some videos.  OK, I
> can't view those on VMS.  However, the main point of this thread is to
> create a presentation on VMS which is viewable by all.) 

OK.  So you can do it.  How many people outside the VMS initiate do you
thing could?  How long would it take them to learn how?  How many High
School students do you know who can't already use Microsoft Word?

And they call me a dinosaur.


bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/21/2013 8:33:14 PM
On 2013-11-21, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply <helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de> wrote:
> In article <bf6endFj6pqU2@mid.individual.net>,
> bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 
>> 
>> Unless they are tasks that somehow can only be done on VMS, I doubt it.
>> Remember, "easiest" is subjective.
>
> Sure.  For me, it is MUCH easier to edit a file on VMS than on any other 
> system, because I can use EDT.  Yes, this might be subjective, but that 
> doesn't mean it is wrong.
>

Phillip, do you have any experience using editors on any other operating
systems or the command line environments on other operating systems
such as Linux ?

Staying with the command line/character cell tools (so we get a like for
like comparison), emacs on Linux completely outstrips what EDT on VMS
can do and you can even use the EDT keypad with it.

$ set response/mode=good_natured

As a bonus, you also get all the nice modern 1980s capabilities such as
multiple windows on screen at the same time and support for terminals
or terminal windows with greater than 24 lines as well. :-)

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/21/2013 8:54:54 PM
On 13-11-21 15:54, Simon Clubley wrote:

> Staying with the command line/character cell tools (so we get a like for
> like comparison), emacs on Linux completely outstrips what EDT on VMS
> can do and you can even use the EDT keypad with it.

Not a fair comparison. On VMS, I used Decwidnows TPU. And I miss it.

Hoff had pointed me to NEDIT which is a motif app that can run on the
mac, but it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the power of TPU for
editing text files.

Not all text files are computer programmes. So the IDE editors are not
suited for all text tasks.



0
11/21/2013 8:57:57 PM
In article <bf790aFoitlU2@mid.individual.net>,
bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 

> > The task was not "make a Power Point presentation", nor "make something 
> > equivalent to a Power Point presentation", but rather "make a 
> > presentation".
> 
> Yes, it was.  The original poster specifically said a ppt.  And that is
> Power Point.

Right, but he has since admitted that this was used as a standard term 
for "presentation", like "Kleenex".

> OK.  So you can do it.  How many people outside the VMS initiate do you
> thing could?  How long would it take them to learn how?  How many High
> School students do you know who can't already use Microsoft Word?

Again, that's not the point.  The point here is not "people not familiar
with VMS should do it on VMS" but rather "a person who obviously likes
VMS should do it on VMS and it can still be done in a portable,
non-proprietary format". 

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 9:19:15 PM
In article <l6lruu$80e$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley
<clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes: 

> > Sure.  For me, it is MUCH easier to edit a file on VMS than on any other 
> > system, because I can use EDT.  Yes, this might be subjective, but that 
> > doesn't mean it is wrong.
> 
> Phillip, do you have any experience using editors on any other operating
> systems or the command line environments on other operating systems
> such as Linux ?

Emacs (though I admit switching on EDT emulation, but of course this 
just emulates the keypad), vi, whatever the editor is which is the 
default in pine, "edit" in DOS, Notepad.

> Staying with the command line/character cell tools (so we get a like for
> like comparison), emacs on Linux completely outstrips what EDT on VMS
> can do and you can even use the EDT keypad with it.

Yes, but I cannot use my EDT macros.  Also, for full functionality one 
needs a keyboard with the keys EDT uses (i.e. LK411 or whatever).  Yes, 
Emacs is powerful (someone said that it is OK as an editor, but is 
pretty good as an OS) and can do more.  It is still EASIER for me to use 
EDT.

0
helbig (5064)
11/21/2013 9:22:26 PM
On 21 Nov 2013 14:36:01 GMT, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill
Gunshannon) wrote:

>In article <$ixWKrTXX5cn@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <bf495hF5hd8U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> 
>>> Do you think that Alpha or Itanium box you are running VMS on contains
>>> only American Made parts?  The last VMS box to be able to make that claim
>>> would have been the VAX.
>> 
>>    That must have been on unsual VAX.  In 11/780 times RAM boards were
>>    using parts made in Ecuador.
> 
>Another myth busted.  I guess that means there has really been nothing
>American Made in my lifetime.
>
>bill

Well, at least the "Made in America" myth was made in America.

OTOH, good to see that the mighty Estwing hammer is still made at
home:

http://www.estwing.com/
0
vlf (63)
11/21/2013 9:54:12 PM
On Thursday, 21 November 2013 13:33:36 UTC, Bill Gunshannon  wrote:
> In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
> 
> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> 
> > In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> 
> > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
> > 
> 
> >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
> 
> > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
> 
> > soon.
> 
> 
> 
> The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
> 
> in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
> 
> for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
> 
> >> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
> 
> >> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
> 
> > 
> 
> > Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
> 
> 
> 
> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
> 
> to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
> 
> in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
> 
> who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
> 
> same.
> 
> 
> 
> >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
> 
> > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
> 
> > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
> 
> > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
> 
> > done on VMS.
> 
> 
> 
> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
> 
> tool equivalent to Power Point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> >> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
> 
> >> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...
> 
> > 
> 
> > Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
> 
> > slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
> 
> > Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
> 
> > that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember my earlier comment about not finding anything that wasn't easier
> 
> on a non-VMS system?  Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> 
> 
> bill
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> 
> billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> 
> University of Scranton   |
> 
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

Bill doesn't know about it therefore it didn't exist. Sadly that speaks volumes,
at least about the effectiveness of DEC's marketing machine.

DECpresent on DECwindows was around in the 1990s, around when DEC was
inventing stuff like compound documents (CDA) and LiveLinks. MS later reinvented
LiveLinks as OLE, if I remember rightly. MS didn't reinvent CDA because they
wanted everyone to be using MS formats, rather than using readily convertable
formats.

Before there was DECpresent there was DECslide but that one is probably best forgotten, though really you shouldn't expect much from ReGIS and sixel on VT.

DECpresent was available via CSLG (as was DECwrite), ie dirt cheap to qualifying
academic institutions. It was available on VMS, Ultrix, and Windows.

Tools like LaTeX and DEC Document are great for easily producing documents in 
a standard layout while focusing on the document's content rather than wasting 
time fussing about details of the appearance. When MS Word is used for such 
applications, it is not a "productivity tool", it is a productivity-destroying 
tool. 

Powerpoint is a better choice if animations and other such stuff are needed.
0
11/21/2013 11:28:29 PM
On Thursday, 21 November 2013 23:28:29 UTC, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk  wrote:
> On Thursday, 21 November 2013 13:33:36 UTC, Bill Gunshannon  wrote:
> 
> > In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
> 
> > 
> 
> > 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> 
> > 
> 
> > > In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> 
> > 
> 
> > > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > soon.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
> 
> > 
> 
> > in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
> 
> > 
> 
> > for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
> 
> > 
> 
> > to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
> 
> > 
> 
> > in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
> 
> > 
> 
> > who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
> 
> > 
> 
> > same.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > done on VMS.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
> 
> > 
> 
> > tool equivalent to Power Point.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...
> 
> > 
> 
> > > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
> 
> > 
> 
> > > that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Remember my earlier comment about not finding anything that wasn't easier
> 
> > 
> 
> > on a non-VMS system?  Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > bill
> 
> > 
> 
> >  
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > -- 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> 
> > 
> 
> > billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> 
> > 
> 
> > University of Scranton   |
> 
> > 
> 
> > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> 
> 
> 
> Bill doesn't know about it therefore it didn't exist. Sadly that speaks volumes,
> 
> at least about the effectiveness of DEC's marketing machine.
> 
> 
> 
> DECpresent on DECwindows was around in the 1990s, around when DEC was
> 
> inventing stuff like compound documents (CDA) and LiveLinks. MS later reinvented
> 
> LiveLinks as OLE, if I remember rightly. MS didn't reinvent CDA because they
> 
> wanted everyone to be using MS formats, rather than using readily convertable
> 
> formats.
> 
> 
> 
> Before there was DECpresent there was DECslide but that one is probably best forgotten, though really you shouldn't expect much from ReGIS and sixel on VT.
> 
> 
> 
> DECpresent was available via CSLG (as was DECwrite), ie dirt cheap to qualifying
> 
> academic institutions. It was available on VMS, Ultrix, and Windows.
> 
> 
> 
> Tools like LaTeX and DEC Document are great for easily producing documents in 
> 
> a standard layout while focusing on the document's content rather than wasting 
> 
> time fussing about details of the appearance. When MS Word is used for such 
> 
> applications, it is not a "productivity tool", it is a productivity-destroying 
> 
> tool. 
> 
> 
> 
> Powerpoint is a better choice if animations and other such stuff are needed.

Forgot a piece. Of the half dozen or so engineering-related ex-students working
near me, one used LaTeX while at uni, one is required to produce his PhD thesis 
in LaTeX. I know this because they have asked how to get access to it given the
IT department's reluctance to support end user software which doesn't come from 
MS. Haven't asked the other ex-students. They're smart enough to realise that 
one logo does not solve all problems.
0
11/21/2013 11:37:59 PM
In article <bf78h2FoitlU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <l6lp7f$6ib$2@online.de>,
>	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> In article <bf6f5aFj6pqU3@mid.individual.net>,
>> bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 
>> 
>>> Hmmm....  I have 8 faculty, 10 grad asst., 1 secretary, 50-60 undergrad
>>> students.  I have one LaTeX user.  I think it wold be safe to remove the
>>> "quite a" and just say that few use LaTeX.
>> 
>> How many write research papers in physics or maths?
>
>Well, let's see.  All the Computer Engineering students in the Physics
>Department have accounts on our survers because they have to take CS
----------------------------------^
>courses, too.  And I have the only servers they have access to that
>has LaTeX on it.  And none of them use it.  We are the CS Department
>but I guess that doesn't fall into your "physics or maths".  The
>professors (and even the occaisional student) frequently do papers
------------------------------^
>for various conferences. They use MS Word.  We have one professor, a
>math background, though, who use it.   No students (not even the grad
>students who all have to write a Masters Thesis for formal printing
>in a hardcover book) to graduate.  Want to guess what they write it
>with?
>
>Heck, I just wrote my whole Java program for the Windows Servers using
>vi.  People here couldn't believe I didn't use jGrasp or Eclipse.  vi
>is just soooooo  ASCII.

I'll stick with DEC Document, my H&B Handbook and my OED. ;)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/22/2013 12:57:44 AM
In article <bf6gdgFj6pqU5@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
>	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>> 
>>> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
>> 
>> Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
>> other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
>> soon.
>
>The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
>in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
>for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
>
>> 
>>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
>>> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
>>> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
>> 
>> Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
>
>I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
>to a PC.

Yeah, even I have a PC and it says "MacBook Pro" on it!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/22/2013 1:06:01 AM
On 2013-11-21, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> On 13-11-21 15:54, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> Staying with the command line/character cell tools (so we get a like for
>> like comparison), emacs on Linux completely outstrips what EDT on VMS
>> can do and you can even use the EDT keypad with it.
>
> Not a fair comparison. On VMS, I used Decwidnows TPU. And I miss it.
>
> Hoff had pointed me to NEDIT which is a motif app that can run on the
> mac, but it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the power of TPU for
> editing text files.
>
> Not all text files are computer programmes. So the IDE editors are not
> suited for all text tasks.
>

Excuse me, JF, but you have completely missed the point.

emacs is both a character cell and GUI editor (and I use it in character
cell mode).

Phillip was trying to say EDT is better than what's available on other
operating systems. I gave him a like for like comparison and even pointed
out he could continue to use the EDT keypad within emacs.

You don't need to be a programmer to use emacs, EDT or TPU/EVE but you get
the most out of them if you are.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/22/2013 7:36:29 AM
Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
> Michael Kraemer wrote 2013-11-21 11:59:
> 
>>
>> There's your pretzel logic again:
>> There are no such tools so we don't need them.
> 
> 
> Who says that? It's not *my* logic anyway.

Whenever someone "admits" he's using VMS for
desktop tasks the bets are 100% you speak up
and tell him that he's a bit crazy and he
shouldn't do it. And he shouldn't demand
for better tools because VMS were a server OS.

> *I* do need presentation and documentation tools.
> But I do not need on my VMS systems, they have other
> more important things to do.

Fine. But others may have other uses for VMS.
Just accept it.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/22/2013 10:02:17 AM
Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
> In article <l6lpnq$6ib$4@online.de>,
> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> 
>>
>>In physics or maths?
> 
> 
> At least in Computer Science, which I would think meets both criteria.

I might be inclined to modify Nobel Laureate E.Rutherford's statement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Rutherford
"Any science not using LaTeX for publishing is not science but stamp
collecting"

> OK.  So you can do it.  How many people outside the VMS initiate do you
> thing could?  How long would it take them to learn how?  How many High
> School students do you know who can't already use Microsoft Word?

So what. Time to teach them real text processing.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/22/2013 10:10:17 AM
In article <tq32ma-65u1.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
	Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
>> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>> In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>> 
>>>> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
>>>> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
>>>> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
>>> 
>>> Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
>>
>> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
>> to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
>> in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
>> who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
>> same.
> 
> Ah, but finding a PC which actually has a properly configured version of
> Microsoft Office can be a challenge.

Considering thast there are no options when installing, I can't imagine why.

> 
> The last time I ventured onto a semi-public PC, Excel couldn't even
> import a CSV file.

Well, I'm confused.  On all my versions of Excel .csv is a native file format.

> 
> 
>>>                                     Should one buy one just to make 
>>> some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
>>> a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
>>> about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
>>> done on VMS.
>>
>> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
>> tool equivalent to Power Point.
> 
> There were loads of competitors. Lotus SmartSuite, WordPerfect
> Office, Star Office and Applixware all had presentation software and
> I am sure there were other products around.

But, not on VMS.  There was Wordperfect (we were beta testers) but at its
best the VMS version never came close to the PC version.

> 
> And since a decade or so ago, Keynote by Apple and
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice, all of which do a reasonable job at reading
> PowerPoint files (though certain fonts, especially bullets in my
> experience, get subsituted)

But don't run on VMS.

> 
> Oh, unless I am mistaken there was a thing called DECPresent... :-)

I somehow doubt that DECPresent could handle any modern PowerPoint
presentation.  Can it even read xml?

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/22/2013 12:04:48 PM
In article <8a6241cf-c64f-4808-b132-029fb9896042@googlegroups.com>,
	johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes:
> On Thursday, 21 November 2013 13:33:36 UTC, Bill Gunshannon  wrote:
>> In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
>> 
>> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> 
>> > In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> 
>> > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
>> 
>> > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
>> 
>> > soon.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
>> 
>> in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
>> 
>> for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
>> 
>> >> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
>> 
>> >> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> > Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
>> 
>> to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
>> 
>> in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
>> 
>> who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
>> 
>> same.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
>> 
>> > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
>> 
>> > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
>> 
>> > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
>> 
>> > done on VMS.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
>> 
>> tool equivalent to Power Point.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> >> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
>> 
>> >> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...
>> 
>> > 
>> 
>> > Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
>> 
>> > slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
>> 
>> > Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
>> 
>> > that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Remember my earlier comment about not finding anything that wasn't easier
>> 
>> on a non-VMS system?  Thank you for proving my point.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> bill
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>> 
>> billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> 
>> University of Scranton   |
>> 
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> 
> Bill doesn't know about it therefore it didn't exist. Sadly that speaks volumes,
> at least about the effectiveness of DEC's marketing machine.
> 
> DECpresent on DECwindows was around in the 1990s, around when DEC was

News Flash....  It isn't still the 90's.  The industry has moved on.
Sadly, VMS has not.

> inventing stuff like compound documents (CDA) and LiveLinks. MS later reinvented
> LiveLinks as OLE, if I remember rightly. MS didn't reinvent CDA because they
> wanted everyone to be using MS formats, rather than using readily convertable
> formats.

It's not the 90's.  MS documents are all XML today.  I think that qualifies
as a standard.

> 
> Before there was DECpresent there was DECslide but that one is probably best forgotten, though really you shouldn't expect much from ReGIS and sixel on VT.
> 
> DECpresent was available via CSLG (as was DECwrite), ie dirt cheap to qualifying
> academic institutions. It was available on VMS, Ultrix, and Windows.
> 
> Tools like LaTeX and DEC Document are great for easily producing documents in 
> a standard layout while focusing on the document's content rather than wasting 
> time fussing about details of the appearance. When MS Word is used for such 
> applications, it is not a "productivity tool", it is a productivity-destroying 
> tool. 

I am afraid the rest of the industry doesn't agree with you. 

> 
> Powerpoint is a better choice if animations and other such stuff are needed.

Powerpoint is better because it is what most of the industry uses and thus
guarantees the widest disemination if you actually want people to see what
you wrote.  If you want your presentation to be ignored by the majority of
the IT industry, feel free to do it in DECPresent.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/22/2013 12:11:33 PM
In article <l6naia$6t4$1@solani.org>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
>> In article <l6lpnq$6ib$4@online.de>,
>> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> 
>>>
>>>In physics or maths?
>> 
>> 
>> At least in Computer Science, which I would think meets both criteria.
> 
> I might be inclined to modify Nobel Laureate E.Rutherford's statement:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Rutherford
> "Any science not using LaTeX for publishing is not science but stamp
> collecting"

Another idiot like Dykstra with a very loose grip on reality.  But then,
that's supposed to be the mark of a genius.

> 
>> OK.  So you can do it.  How many people outside the VMS initiate do you
>> thing could?  How long would it take them to learn how?  How many High
>> School students do you know who can't already use Microsoft Word?
> 
> So what. Time to teach them real text processing.
 
Best laugh I have had all week.  We already teach too much worthless
crap to students.  Why teach them something else that offers no possible
value when they go out into the real world to earn a living?  Or are you
one of those people still living in the 19th century who believe education
is about making you a better man, not teaching you a skill.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/22/2013 12:22:47 PM
In article <l6ltcj$cv7$2@online.de>,
	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> In article <bf790aFoitlU2@mid.individual.net>,
> bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes: 
> 
>> > The task was not "make a Power Point presentation", nor "make something 
>> > equivalent to a Power Point presentation", but rather "make a 
>> > presentation".
>> 
>> Yes, it was.  The original poster specifically said a ppt.  And that is
>> Power Point.
> 
> Right, but he has since admitted that this was used as a standard term 
> for "presentation", like "Kleenex".

Yes, he did, but not till after people argued against PowerPoint based
on some warped hate for MicroSoft as opposed to its ability to do the
required job ignoring the fact that, like it or not, it is the accepted
standard for presentations indusrtry wide.  Oh yeah, and outside the IT
world, too.

> 
>> OK.  So you can do it.  How many people outside the VMS initiate do you
>> thing could?  How long would it take them to learn how?  How many High
>> School students do you know who can't already use Microsoft Word?
> 
> Again, that's not the point.  The point here is not "people not familiar
> with VMS should do it on VMS" but rather "a person who obviously likes
> VMS should do it on VMS and it can still be done in a portable,
> non-proprietary format". 

Whatever....  The person in question didn't. What does that say about your
argument?
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/22/2013 12:26:58 PM
In article <duvs89h6cvcd7fj9qgpv4obkd80g3k3lk9@4ax.com>,
	Subcommandante XDelta <vlf@star.enet.dec.com> writes:
> On 21 Nov 2013 14:36:01 GMT, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill
> Gunshannon) wrote:
> 
>>In article <$ixWKrTXX5cn@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
>>	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <bf495hF5hd8U2@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> 
>>>> Do you think that Alpha or Itanium box you are running VMS on contains
>>>> only American Made parts?  The last VMS box to be able to make that claim
>>>> would have been the VAX.
>>> 
>>>    That must have been on unsual VAX.  In 11/780 times RAM boards were
>>>    using parts made in Ecuador.
>> 
>>Another myth busted.  I guess that means there has really been nothing
>>American Made in my lifetime.
>>
>>bill
> 
> Well, at least the "Made in America" myth was made in America.
> 
> OTOH, good to see that the mighty Estwing hammer is still made at
> home:
> 
> http://www.estwing.com/

Where did the steel come from?

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/22/2013 12:28:45 PM
ninth day of debate about ppt, pdf, latex, decprint
Suzan is not here





Le 13/11/2013 10:38, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" a �crit :
> Is there or not an � OpenVMS ecosystem � ? And if there is such an
> ecosystem, how does it exist ?
>
> Like the Susan of the film, it seems for now it is difficult to catch
> �her�, to know �her� needs, how �she� fights for �her� fortune.
>
> In France, in an users club which is an heir of the old Decus (our name
> is �hp-interex france�), we thought it is the time to think about a
> renewal for community actions around the so-called �OpenVMS ecosystem�.
>
> We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS
> (http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer
> it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at the
> bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again
> misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).
>
> It�s a milestone. For sure, if we have thousands of answers, and the
> global turnover sawn across the answers is trillions of dollars, it
> could be a very good thing for OpenVMS ecosystem.
>
> But it is just some beginning for a long term action. OpenVMS ecosystem
> has to exist as a whole (big companies using it, small companies living
> by it, professionals, third parties, ISV, (hp ?)...) : we need news
> letters, forums, symposium, foundations for universal training,�
>
> But what we need first : ideas, good discussion threads, like here for
> sure, but not only here. Do have a look at our site
> (http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-engl/4406227), do begin to write to
> us here (pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr), stay on the line.
>
> This fall, some little village from France resists again doom :=). Have
> with us the taste of the �magic potion�.
>
> G�rard Calliet
> Vice president of HP-Interex France
> pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr

0
11/22/2013 1:08:54 PM
On Friday, 22 November 2013 12:11:33 UTC, Bill Gunshannon  wrote:
> In article <8a6241cf-c64f-4808-b132-029fb9896042@googlegroups.com>,
> 
> 	johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes:
> 
> > On Thursday, 21 November 2013 13:33:36 UTC, Bill Gunshannon  wrote:
> 
> >> In article <l6kqnu$q83$1@online.de>,
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 	helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > In article <l6kl7r$e5h$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> LaTeX might be (still) used in some academic corner of the world.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > Practically all scientific papers, books etc in all of physics and many 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > other fields are done with LaTeX.  This is not likely to change any time 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > soon.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> The professor I just asked doesn't agree.  According to him little is done
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> in LaTeX, nothing is required to be done in LaTeX and the prefered format
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> for both papers and publishers is MicroSoft Word.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> Most IT professionals today *might* have heard about it, very few
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> would think it whould be a good idea to replace popular/usable
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> desktop/office tool with it. Come on, get real!
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > Suppose that one doesn't have a PC.  
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> I can not imagine anyone other than a hermit who wold not have access
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> to a PC.  Heck, around here they have them in the library.  The PC's
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> in the University library are available for use by anyone, even people
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> who walk in off the street.  I am certain the public library is the
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> same.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >                                     Should one buy one just to make 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > some slides?  No reason to, if the VMS system can do it.  I don't expect 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > a PC user to move to VMS to make his slides, but here we are talking 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > about a VMS person who didn't do something on VMS which he could have 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > done on VMS.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> Using what?  I have used VMS for over 30 years and I don't know of any
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> tool equivalent to Power Point.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> I use my standard mobile phone to *talk* about VMS.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> >> I would reach far fewer using $ PHONE>...
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > Right.  However, that is not an option.  But the task was: produce some 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > slides and make them available on the internet.  This is easy on VMS: 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > Use LaTeX, DECwrite, whatever to produce PostScript, use gs to convert 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> > that to PDF, serve it via the OSU web server.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> Remember my earlier comment about not finding anything that wasn't easier
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> on a non-VMS system?  Thank you for proving my point.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> bill
> 
> >> 
> 
> >>  
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> -- 
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> University of Scranton   |
> 
> >> 
> 
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> 
> > 
> 
> > Bill doesn't know about it therefore it didn't exist. Sadly that speaks volumes,
> 
> > at least about the effectiveness of DEC's marketing machine.
> 
> > 
> 
> > DECpresent on DECwindows was around in the 1990s, around when DEC was
> 
> 
> 
> News Flash....  It isn't still the 90's.  The industry has moved on.
> 
> Sadly, VMS has not.
> 
> 
> 
> > inventing stuff like compound documents (CDA) and LiveLinks. MS later reinvented
> 
> > LiveLinks as OLE, if I remember rightly. MS didn't reinvent CDA because they
> 
> > wanted everyone to be using MS formats, rather than using readily convertable
> 
> > formats.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not the 90's.  MS documents are all XML today.  I think that qualifies
> 
> as a standard.
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Before there was DECpresent there was DECslide but that one is probably best forgotten, though really you shouldn't expect much from ReGIS and sixel on VT.
> 
> > 
> 
> > DECpresent was available via CSLG (as was DECwrite), ie dirt cheap to qualifying
> 
> > academic institutions. It was available on VMS, Ultrix, and Windows.
> 
> > 
> 
> > Tools like LaTeX and DEC Document are great for easily producing documents in 
> 
> > a standard layout while focusing on the document's content rather than wasting 
> 
> > time fussing about details of the appearance. When MS Word is used for such 
> 
> > applications, it is not a "productivity tool", it is a productivity-destroying 
> 
> > tool. 
> 
> 
> 
> I am afraid the rest of the industry doesn't agree with you. 
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> 
> > Powerpoint is a better choice if animations and other such stuff are needed.
> 
> 
> 
> Powerpoint is better because it is what most of the industry uses and thus
> 
> guarantees the widest disemination if you actually want people to see what
> 
> you wrote.  If you want your presentation to be ignored by the majority of
> 
> the IT industry, feel free to do it in DECPresent.
> 
> 
> 
> bill
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> 
> billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> 
> University of Scranton   |
> 
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

"MS documents are all XML today.  I think that qualifies as a standard. "

Do you really mean that?

Saying that MS documents encoded in XML are "standard format" is about as 
helpful as saying two independent applications must be capable of 
interoperating because they both use SQL-style databases.

In otherwords, it's largely meaningless. As, unfortunately for Gerard, is most of this discussion.

Back in the 1990s, it was entirely possible to write a complete manual and 
spend almost no time worrying about fonts, margins, and all the other stuff 
which was handled automatically by the document type definition. Now, in the MS 
Word era, everyone doing that kind of work has to worry about that kind of 
distraction, mostly it's done wrong, and it's called progress.

I have no problem with Joe Public at home wanting to use something a bit smarter than WordPad to write the odd note. Take it a bit beyond that, to for 
example any organisation that wants to present a consistent image in their 
publications, and Word starts to lose its attractiveness (once people are aware 
that alternatives do exist and may sometimes be more appropriate).

But hey, if it has an MS logo on it, it can't possibly be inappropriate, can it.

0
11/22/2013 2:29:59 PM
In article <78cb7ba4-d19f-42fc-9d31-734149a30ad6@googlegroups.com>,
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes:
> 
> Back in the 1990s, it was entirely possible to write a complete manual and 
> spend almost no time worrying about fonts, margins, and all the other stuff 
> which was handled automatically by the document type definition. Now, in the
> MS 
> Word era, everyone doing that kind of work has to worry about that kind of 
> distraction, mostly it's done wrong, and it's called progress.

Well, if it would be the right tool to write an entire book,
they wouldn't have called it "Word", would they?

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/22/2013 2:48:46 PM
In article <l6nqse$ilo$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
>In article <78cb7ba4-d19f-42fc-9d31-734149a30ad6@googlegroups.com>,
>johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>> 
>> Back in the 1990s, it was entirely possible to write a complete manual and 
>> spend almost no time worrying about fonts, margins, and all the other stuff 
>> which was handled automatically by the document type definition. Now, in the
>> MS 
>> Word era, everyone doing that kind of work has to worry about that kind of 
>> distraction, mostly it's done wrong, and it's called progress.
>
>Well, if it would be the right tool to write an entire book,
>they wouldn't have called it "Word", would they?

LOL!  Zing!


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/22/2013 4:16:47 PM
In article <l6nqse$ilo$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>, m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> 
> Well, if it would be the right tool to write an entire book,
> they wouldn't have called it "Word", would they?

   MS Book?  Sounds like a bad bet.
 
0
koehler2 (8314)
11/22/2013 5:46:57 PM
Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2013-11-21, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> On 13-11-21 15:54, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>>> Staying with the command line/character cell tools (so we get a like for
>>> like comparison), emacs on Linux completely outstrips what EDT on VMS
>>> can do and you can even use the EDT keypad with it.
>> Not a fair comparison. On VMS, I used Decwidnows TPU. And I miss it.
>>
>> Hoff had pointed me to NEDIT which is a motif app that can run on the
>> mac, but it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the power of TPU for
>> editing text files.
>>
>> Not all text files are computer programmes. So the IDE editors are not
>> suited for all text tasks.
>>
> 
> Excuse me, JF, but you have completely missed the point.
> 
> emacs is both a character cell and GUI editor (and I use it in character
> cell mode).
> 
> Phillip was trying to say EDT is better than what's available on other
> operating systems. I gave him a like for like comparison and even pointed
> out he could continue to use the EDT keypad within emacs.
> 
> You don't need to be a programmer to use emacs, EDT or TPU/EVE but you get
> the most out of them if you are.
> 
> Simon.
> 

Ya know, if I have a VMS system with EDT, and I don't have whatever with 
whatever, then it definitely is easier for me to use EDT to modify a 
text file.

You can always say that something else is easier or better, if you 
indeed have that environment.  But for me, I'd first have to acquire 
whatever environment, and then have to learn it, and ....

So, easier depends heavily on what you have and what you know how to 
use.  You might suggest that I acquire whatever and learn to use it.  I 
can also tell you I'd rather not.
0
davef3 (3716)
11/23/2013 12:30:25 AM
On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>
>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>
>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>
> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
> VMS friends need friends.
>

I give up!  What is "ppt"?

0
rgilbert88 (4439)
11/23/2013 2:01:00 AM
On 13-11-22 07:11, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Powerpoint is better because it is what most of the industry uses and thus
> guarantees the widest disemination if you actually want people to see what
> you wrote.  If you want your presentation to be ignored by the majority of
> the IT industry, feel free to do it in DECPresent.


Wrong.

You can use Powerpoint or Keynote to prepare your presentation. You can
use Powerpoint or Keynote to run the projector during your presentation
with Powerpoint doing basic boring animations and Keynote giving you
more elaborate animations.

But when it comes to distributing your presentation, you distribute a
PDF copy of your presentation.

0
11/23/2013 4:57:52 AM
JF Mezei schrieb:

> You can use Powerpoint or Keynote to prepare your presentation. You can
> use Powerpoint or Keynote to run the projector during your presentation
> with Powerpoint doing basic boring animations and Keynote giving you
> more elaborate animations.

You can also do animations with PDF,
whether they are boring or not depends
on the audience.

> But when it comes to distributing your presentation, you distribute a
> PDF copy of your presentation.

Which begs the question why not produce everything
just with PDF as a target.
Which brings LaTeX back into the game.

0
M.Kraemer (2048)
11/23/2013 8:35:08 AM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>
>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>
>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>> VMS friends need friends.
>>
>
> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>

What a childish behavior...

Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
the *first two* hits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint

But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...

Grow up.


0
11/23/2013 11:49:06 AM
In article <529035d0$0$10331$c3e8da3$9b4ff22a@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-11-22 07:11, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>> Powerpoint is better because it is what most of the industry uses and thus
>> guarantees the widest disemination if you actually want people to see what
>> you wrote.  If you want your presentation to be ignored by the majority of
>> the IT industry, feel free to do it in DECPresent.
>
>
>Wrong.
>
>You can use Powerpoint or Keynote to prepare your presentation. You can
>use Powerpoint or Keynote to run the projector during your presentation
>with Powerpoint doing basic boring animations and Keynote giving you
>more elaborate animations.

With Keynote, very much more elabote and with more profectional looking
quality graphics and text too.



>But when it comes to distributing your presentation, you distribute a
>PDF copy of your presentation.

Distribute it as an .MP4 if the animation is an important feature of the
presentation. ;)  Record a/the presentation audio and make it the .MP4's
soundtrack.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/23/2013 12:13:12 PM
In article <529035d0$0$10331$c3e8da3$9b4ff22a@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: 

> > Powerpoint is better because it is what most of the industry uses and thus
> > guarantees the widest disemination if you actually want people to see what
> > you wrote.  If you want your presentation to be ignored by the majority of
> > the IT industry, feel free to do it in DECPresent.
> 
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> You can use Powerpoint or Keynote to prepare your presentation. You can
> use Powerpoint or Keynote to run the projector during your presentation
> with Powerpoint doing basic boring animations and Keynote giving you
> more elaborate animations.
> 
> But when it comes to distributing your presentation, you distribute a
> PDF copy of your presentation.

Right.  Many people don't see the difference.  If something is designed
to be viewed by a large audience, then one needs some sort of
non-proprietary format usable on many systems.  What tools one uses to 
produce that are irrelevant to the consumers.  It doesn't matter of one 
uses a tool which many use or which few use.

I also don't like the idea of open-source software which is able of 
processing things like WORD documents or whatever.  The format is still 
controlled by one vendor.

0
helbig (5064)
11/23/2013 9:09:50 PM
Salut G=E9rard,

Parent avec Jean-Pierre Calliet ?

About rebooting the VMS ecosystem, I had a deep conversation a few years ag=
o with Hoff about the resurrection of the VMS market because of the increas=
ing place of Cybersecurity today.

VMS is far ahead from any competitors in terms of built-in security since a=
ges, mainly thanks to the F11B XQP. But it lacks a few modern features.

As soon as VMS Engineering (is there still someone in the cubes @ ZK?) hand=
les this issue, I can predict today that worldwide IT Decidors will go VMS =
to protect their assets with. I don't remind any DefCon or Hack In Paris co=
nferences where talented hackers did break into a VMS system...

Didier
former DECUS Rep @ DEC France (1983-1986)
0
11/24/2013 7:23:44 AM
In article <2852e851-f1db-47ef-878c-b35769255a00@googlegroups.com>, DTL
<didier.morandi@gmail.com> writes: 

>  About rebooting the VMS ecosystem, I had a deep conversation a few years ago
>  with Hoff about the resurrection of the VMS market because of the 
>  increasing place of Cybersecurity today.

> As soon as VMS Engineering (is there still someone in the cubes @ ZK?) 

I think not.

> handles this issue, I can predict today that worldwide IT Decidors will 
> go VMS to protect their assets with. 

I predict that they won't, even if VMS Engineering handles this issue.  
History is full of people making bad decisions.

0
helbig (5064)
11/24/2013 8:09:51 AM
Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>
>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>
>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>
>>
>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>
>
> What a childish behavior...
>
> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
> the *first two* hits:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>
> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>
> Grow up.
>
>
Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up 
about VMS, and his message is just despair.

And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can 
transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.

Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups, 
some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down 
throught circles of hell.

More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th 
december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?


0
11/24/2013 8:57:41 AM
Le 24/11/2013 08:23, DTL a �crit :
> Salut G�rard,
>
> Parent avec Jean-Pierre Calliet ?
>
> About rebooting the VMS ecosystem, I had a deep conversation a few years ago with Hoff about the resurrection of the VMS market because of the increasing place of Cybersecurity today.
>
> VMS is far ahead from any competitors in terms of built-in security since ages, mainly thanks to the F11B XQP. But it lacks a few modern features.
>
> As soon as VMS Engineering (is there still someone in the cubes @ ZK?) handles this issue, I can predict today that worldwide IT Decidors will go VMS to protect their assets with. I don't remind any DefCon or Hack In Paris conferences where talented hackers did break into a VMS system...
>
> Didier
> former DECUS Rep @ DEC France (1983-1986)
>
No, I don't know Jean-Pierre Calliet

I'm not sure IT Decidors are concerned about protecting their assets, 
and IT IS the real issue.

VMS does protect parts of IT systems, like head of industry chains, or 
heart of billing, ans  so on. But these parts are not so "huge" and 
"agile" than clouds or tera of video. In a word, BECAUSE VMS is about 
protection, it is not fun and it doesn't do big profits, so it has to die.

If we want to survive we have to think about it.
0
11/24/2013 9:09:06 AM
On 2013-11-24, DTL <didier.morandi@gmail.com> wrote:
> VMS is far ahead from any competitors in terms of built-in security since
> ages, mainly thanks to the F11B XQP. But it lacks a few modern features.
>

It most certainly is not (at least these days) but it was among the state
of the art about 15-20 years ago.

I suggest you look at SELinux (which offers a Mandatory Access Control
security model implementation) or one of the application sandbox
implementations (which Hoff can point you to if he wishes - that's his
preferred containment model).

Absolutely nothing like that exists in VMS.

> As soon as VMS Engineering (is there still someone in the cubes @ ZK?)
> handles this issue, I can predict today that worldwide IT Decidors will go VMS
> to protect their assets with. I don't remind any DefCon or Hack In Paris
> conferences where talented hackers did break into a VMS system...
>

DEFCON 16. Widely discussed here at the time (~5 years ago).

They found a flaw in the SMG library and included, among other exploits,
a buffer exploit in the TCP/IP Services finger client which should have
_never_ been there in the first place because it should have been caught
at the coding standards level.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
clubley (1478)
11/24/2013 1:39:44 PM
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> DECpresent on DECwindows was around in the 1990s, around when DEC was
>> inventing stuff like compound documents (CDA) and LiveLinks. MS later reinvented
>> LiveLinks as OLE, if I remember rightly. MS didn't reinvent CDA because they
>> wanted everyone to be using MS formats, rather than using readily convertable
>> formats.

Office 97 had something called "Office Binder" which was meant to
provide:

" a container in which several documents can be brought together —
regardless of file type — to create one project file. For example, you
may be working on a research project with several Excel workbooks in
which you do your statistical analysis, a Microsoft Word document where
you summarize your findings, another Word document that serves as the
survey form, and a Microsoft PowerPoint presentation that you use to
present your findings. By assembling these documents in a binder, you
can use all of the functionality of the original programs that created
the files, but now you have one file that can be more easily
distributed. "

<http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc749813.aspx>

I couldn't get the thing working though. As far as I could see it
was beta-not-yet-working software.

>> 
>> Before there was DECpresent there was DECslide but that one is probably best forgotten,
>> though really you shouldn't expect much from ReGIS and sixel on VT.
>> DECpresent was available via CSLG (as was DECwrite), ie dirt cheap to qualifying
>> academic institutions. It was available on VMS, Ultrix, and Windows.
>> Tools like LaTeX and DEC Document are great for easily producing documents in 
>> a standard layout while focusing on the document's content rather than wasting 
>> time fussing about details of the appearance. When MS Word is used for such 
>> applications, it is not a "productivity tool", it is a productivity-destroying 
>> tool. 

Quiite apart from the difficulty of separating the content from the
formatting, I could never get Word to do section or paragraph numbering 
anything like the way I could back in 1980 with Digtal Standard Runoff
(DSR).

>> 
>> Powerpoint is a better choice if animations and other such stuff are needed.
>
> Forgot a piece. Of the half dozen or so engineering-related ex-students working
> near me, one used LaTeX while at uni, one is required to produce his PhD thesis 
> in LaTeX. I know this because they have asked how to get access to it given the
> IT department's reluctance to support end user software which doesn't come from 
> MS. Haven't asked the other ex-students. They're smart enough to realise that 
> one logo does not solve all problems.

Something I stumbled across yesterday: I have seen this before but the
word LateX jumped off the page in the light of the current discussion
here.

<http://sphinx-doc.org/>

--- start quote ---
Sphinx is a tool that makes it easy to create intelligent and
beautiful documentation written by Georg Brandl and licensed under the
BSD license.

It was originally created for the new Python documentation, and it has
excellent facilities for the documentation of Python projects, but C/C++
is already supported as well, and it is planned to add special support
for other languages as well. Of course, this site is also created from
reStructuredText sources using Sphinx! The following features should be
highlighted:

* Output formats: HTML (including Windows HTML Help), LaTeX (for
printable PDF versions), Texinfo, manual pages, plain text.
--- end quote ---

From which we can reasonably say that  LaTeX's usage is much wider than
the scientific community, even if that usage is just one part of a
documentation tool chain.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
nospam9740 (2260)
11/24/2013 2:16:59 PM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:

> I also don't like the idea of open-source software which is able of 
> processing things like WORD documents or whatever.  The format is still 
> controlled by one vendor.
> 

I think the key word here is "able".  It's flexible if multiple formats 
can be processed.  That doesn't mean that only one format is supported.
0
davef3 (3716)
11/25/2013 12:40:43 AM
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>
>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>
>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>
>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>
>>
>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>
> 
> What a childish behavior...
> 
> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
> the *first two* hits:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
> 
> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
> 
> Grow up.
> 
> 

Feeling a bit testy today ???

:-)

Frankly, I also do not appreciate such abreviations.  It really isn't 
all that hard to spell something out, avoiding most mis-conceptions.

Just as it's not too hard to avoid some mis-spelling.
0
davef3 (3716)
11/25/2013 12:46:34 AM
David Froble wrote 2013-11-25 01:46:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>
>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>
>>
>> What a childish behavior...
>>
>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>> the *first two* hits:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>
>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>
>> Grow up.
>>
>>
>
> Feeling a bit testy today ???
>
> :-)

Not at all. :-)

1. It was very clear from the thread what PPT stands for.
2. If not, it took 10 sec on Google to find out.

So what was it to "give up" there ?
Had he spent those 10 sec using Google?
Before "giving up" ?

No, it was a childish and unnecessary post.

And I'm also 100% positive that mr Gilbert, as an IT
professional, very well knows what PPT stands for.
If he'd say otherwise, I'd simply not belive him.

>
> Frankly, I also do not appreciate such abreviations.  It really isn't all
> that hard to spell something out, avoiding most mis-conceptions.

I dare to say that there was non in this case. It was political
statement. But yes, apart from that, I also *prefer* clearnes
an spelled out names. But then, one can say "maybe you should
write PowerPoint instead of PPT to make it a bit clearer",
instead of "I give up!  What is "ppt"?".


>
> Just as it's not too hard to avoid some mis-spelling.

As long as it doesn't change the meening, it doesn't realy
matter that much. In an international world where not everyone
has english as mother language, a few misspelled words now
and then is simply what you have to accept.

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.


0
11/25/2013 9:28:52 AM
On 11/19/2013 4:10 PM, Keith Parris wrote:
> On 11/17/2013 5:20 AM, Subcommandante XDelta wrote:
>> It it highly unlikely that HP has had any new VMS business in the time
>> that it has owned it.
>
> Actually, there have been new VMS customers added during this period.
>

HOW MANY new VMS customers were added?  Two new customers would justify 
the plural.  That's not going to be sufficient to save VMS.  Two new
customers every working day would look like a miracle.  You don't have
to tell me that it's highly improbable.

I give thanks for a good retirement plan.  That, plus Social-Security, 
are sufficient to keep me afloat.

0
Richard
11/26/2013 8:53:49 PM
On 13-11-26 15:53, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> HOW MANY new VMS customers were added?  Two new customers would justify 
> the plural. 

And adding 2 new customers doesn't even change statistics up when you
factor the drop from 400k customers in the Rich Marcello days down to
whatever number it is today (I would assume below 100,000 by now).
0
JF
11/26/2013 9:02:33 PM
Le 26/11/2013 22:02, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-26 15:53, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>> HOW MANY new VMS customers were added?  Two new customers would justify
>> the plural.
>
> And adding 2 new customers doesn't even change statistics up when you
> factor the drop from 400k customers in the Rich Marcello days down to
> whatever number it is today (I would assume below 100,000 by now).
>
So ?

BECAUSE we are dying, we MUST die ? Ok, I inderstood the only goog thing 
is you are retiring.

"Apr�s moi le d�luge" (after me the downpour)

What about the professionnal who ARE for now in the VMS ecosystem.

Oh, I know. You don't care.
0
ISO
11/26/2013 9:40:31 PM
On 13-11-26 16:40, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> What about the professionnal who ARE for now in the VMS ecosystem.

I was told very bluntly: recyle into modern tech or die.

VMS is NOT modern tech. Despite some of the valuable features in VMS, it
all dates back from the 1980s with very little added in the 1990s.

Unix may date back from even before VMS, but it has progressed and
continually improved.


The reality is harsh. It is not fun to be forced to abandon an OS with
which you are confortable, an OS with documentation, an OS you can
trust, and an OS that works.

But modern day Unixes are "good enough" to do vast majority of tasks and
include far more modern tools. The market has decided.



0
11/26/2013 11:34:05 PM
Le 27/11/2013 00:34, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-26 16:40, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>
>> What about the professionnal who ARE for now in the VMS ecosystem.
>
> I was told very bluntly: recyle into modern tech or die.
You are wright... and wrong.

Nowadays, you have to be "modern" to survive.

But what this common idea forgets is : some things have to go fast, some 
things not ; some things have to live one second or one day or one 
month, some things have to live ten years as a minimum ; some things are 
not so dangerous (oups ! I lost my movie !) some things are dangerous 
(oups ! these medical data about my brain scan were corrupted !).

The issue : thinking IT with several speeds, contraints.

I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq, 
HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for 
long life IT systems, very mission critical...

My idea : these old and sure systems (VMS, main-frame) are to be 
modernized, re-opened, but not "recycled".
>
> VMS is NOT modern tech. Despite some of the valuable features in VMS, it
> all dates back from the 1980s with very little added in the 1990s.
>
> Unix may date back from even before VMS, but it has progressed and
> continually improved.
>
>
> The reality is harsh. It is not fun to be forced to abandon an OS with
> which you are confortable, an OS with documentation, an OS you can
> trust, and an OS that works.
>
> But modern day Unixes are "good enough" to do vast majority of tasks and
> include far more modern tools. The market has decided.
Yes, I agree about "good enought" Unixes. I don't think trying a fight 
for VMS desktop is possible, for now. But the now very little VMS 
ecosystem must and can survive, with other ways of thinking about it.

(And : do survive 10 years, after that perhaps you could propose VMS on 
other markets : I talk for my grandchidren :=) )

Yes the market has decided. But, as I said, the market is blind about 
long term, not huge volume, vital risks. A mission critical business 
cannot do two numbers purcent profit a year.

As you noted in another thread, BCS itself is dying. But have you 
numbers about IBM ?

The point : some long time markets cannot be addressed by "excel 
companies". BCS is dying at HP, because HP is not a company which thinks 
about long term industry politicals. I don't think Non-Stop will go 
around long time : it is funny now, but it wil not be able to pass 
decades with a seller of printers. HP would sell it sometimes as it sold 
all hight level technologies other the time.

I think mission critical IT has to go with specific actors, which know 
about it, and think about stable and long term investments. And there is 
also a lot of work to do to say to DG other the world that some pieces 
of their systems are very, very important, and have not the same pace 
and constraints than the other.

IBM will survive, and AS400, main-frame, modernized old IT (SOA, for 
example, was up with a big support from IBM). Other actors could appear 
in this long term market. I don't think HP would be in this market.

For us (VMS) we have to organize ourselves to be sufficiently attractive 
to be buyed by an non-ignorant actor.
>
>
>

0
ISO
11/27/2013 8:54:28 AM
In article <52952fee$0$50775$c3e8da3$92d0a893@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> On 13-11-26 16:40, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
> 
>> What about the professionnal who ARE for now in the VMS ecosystem.
> 
> I was told very bluntly: recyle into modern tech or die.

   Boy I'm glad I never studies CS.  My dad told me those guys are
   a dime a dozen.

   How about doing something interesting in life, instead of just paying
   the bills?

0
koehler2 (8314)
11/27/2013 1:54:43 PM
In article <TwRaSPp2rPlq@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <52952fee$0$50775$c3e8da3$92d0a893@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> On 13-11-26 16:40, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>> 
>>> What about the professionnal who ARE for now in the VMS ecosystem.
>> 
>> I was told very bluntly: recyle into modern tech or die.
> 
>    Boy I'm glad I never studies CS.  My dad told me those guys are
>    a dime a dozen.

And yet they still command some of the highest salaries in tech jobs.

> 
>    How about doing something interesting in life, instead of just paying
>    the bills?

Paying the bills comes first.  It's hard to "do something interesting"
when you live under a bridge.  Unless you consider staying alive to be
"something interesting".

bill


-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill3067 (86)
11/27/2013 2:31:03 PM
In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
<gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes: 

> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq, 
> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for 
> long life IT systems, very mission critical...

Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
the occasional glitch with other computers.

0
helbig
11/27/2013 8:56:49 PM
In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> 
> Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
> the occasional glitch with other computers.

   Ask the guys writing the flight software for Space-X's planned human
   space vehicles.
 
0
koehler2 (8314)
11/27/2013 9:43:47 PM
In article <bfme17Ftm5cU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> And yet they still command some of the highest salaries in tech jobs.
> 

   More than 2 cents is 3 cents.

> Paying the bills comes first.  It's hard to "do something interesting"
> when you live under a bridge.  Unless you consider staying alive to be
> "something interesting".

   If you can't earn a living doing something interesting, then we'll
   just let you keep paying you bills while the rest of us do both.
   
0
koehler2 (8314)
11/27/2013 9:45:11 PM
On 13-11-27 15:56, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:

> Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
> the occasional glitch with other computers.


I found out that the Montr�al M�tro which used to work on Stratus fault
tolerant stuff in the early days is now running on Windows servers.

It's a miracle there haven't been any accidents. But the number of short
outages since they moved to that platform has increased.

A good example of "good enough".

0
11/27/2013 10:24:22 PM
In article <7hPvrIfb64TZ@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <bfme17Ftm5cU1@mid.individual.net>, bill@server3.cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> And yet they still command some of the highest salaries in tech jobs.
>> 
> 
>    More than 2 cents is 3 cents.

Are you somehow trying to imply that CS Grads only earn a penny more than
other fields?  My daughter has a Masters in Education.  She earns less
than any of our recent grads with a BS.  Of course, she also isn't working
in her field, but even if she were, around here, she would be earning
less.

> 
>> Paying the bills comes first.  It's hard to "do something interesting"
>> when you live under a bridge.  Unless you consider staying alive to be
>> "something interesting".
> 
>    If you can't earn a living doing something interesting, then we'll
>    just let you keep paying you bills while the rest of us do both.

Oh, I have enjoyed a lot of my jobs over the years.  I loved my time in
the Army and academic computering has been pretty good, too.  But I also
went thru times where I worked at things like making toilet paper in
order to pay the bills.  You know what, come to think of it, I met a lot
of people with advanced degrees during that time.  People who had gone
for what they wantred to do rather than what they needed to do.  They
worked right alongside of me in the paper mill.  And with what we earned
there, I didn't see them moving on to be philosophers any time soon.

bill
    

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill6098 (13)
11/27/2013 10:40:14 PM
In article <Q$UgMpDBAkdM@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes: 

> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> > 
> > Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
> > to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
> > the occasional glitch with other computers.
> 
>    Ask the guys writing the flight software for Space-X's planned human
>    space vehicles.

Do they use VMS?

Of course there are a few mission-critical systems.  However, my guess 
is that customers have become more willing to accept glitches because 
they are familiar with them from their own computers.  Back in the old 
days, many of the people paying the money had no hands-on computer 
experience themselves.  Also, in many areas, priorities have changed.  
It is often preferable to be cheap and/or fast rather than be good.  VMS 
was good; other systems are cheaper and/or (these days) faster.

0
helbig (5064)
11/27/2013 10:44:06 PM
In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
><gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes: 
>
>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq, 
>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for 
>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>
>Is anything mission-critical anymore?

ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!

One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.

Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
industry.



>  Maybe people have become so used 
>to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
>the occasional glitch with other computers.

I haven't but then, I have never had a child's toy which turned cyanotic;
I only had a child that turned cyanotic.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/27/2013 10:50:53 PM
In article <52967116$0$12571$c3e8da3$69010069@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-11-27 15:56, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
>
>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
>> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
>> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>
>
>I found out that the Montr�al M�tro which used to work on Stratus fault
>tolerant stuff in the early days is now running on Windows servers.
>
>It's a miracle there haven't been any accidents. But the number of short
>outages since they moved to that platform has increased.
>
>A good example of "good enough".

I hope that philosophy doesn't enter into Boeing's products.  I'd like NOT
to board any 7*7s that are just "good enough".

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/27/2013 10:53:41 PM
Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>
>>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq,
>>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for
>>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>>
>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>
> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
>
> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
>
> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
> industry.
>
>
>
>>   Maybe people have become so used
>> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with
>> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>
> I haven't but then, I have never had a child's toy which turned cyanotic;
> I only had a child that turned cyanotic.
>
bla bla bla

Doctor(s) Freud : what do you think about some guys commenting as big 
scolars their proper death ?

Is there someone who is just POLITE and can answer the question that 
have been posed, or you just are so rude that the only thing you can do 
when a newbie goes there and asks about what can be done in VMS 
ecosystem is to expose your "science".

Not other cause, for now, about VMS decline : you are the contrary of 
communities like Linux or other : a bunch of old fashioned aristocrats.

Bons baisers from France.






0
11/27/2013 11:46:18 PM
In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
>>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>>
>>>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq,
>>>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for
>>>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>>>
>>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>>
>> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
---^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  BTW, this is a tmesis!


>> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
>> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
>> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
>> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
>> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
>> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
>>
>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>> industry.
>>
>>
>>
>>>   Maybe people have become so used
>>> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with
>>> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>>
>> I haven't but then, I have never had a child's toy which turned cyanotic;
>> I only had a child that turned cyanotic.
>>
>bla bla bla
>
>Doctor(s) Freud : what do you think about some guys commenting as big 
>scolars their proper death ?

Ah, I see, if you don't like the contrary answer so you simply malign its
messenger.  You'd be welcomed by open arms here by the current US politic.



>Is there someone who is just POLITE and can answer the question that 
>have been posed, or you just are so rude that the only thing you can do 
>when a newbie goes there and asks about what can be done in VMS 
>ecosystem is to expose your "science".

What was rude.  I answered the question with examples.



>Not other cause, for now, about VMS decline : you are the contrary of 
>communities like Linux or other : a bunch of old fashioned aristocrats.

Oh.  I'm oooh sooo sooory.  Yes, Mr. Linux, it IS theee most wonderful
thing since the invention of toilet paper -- despite the fact that I've
needed Linux reboots several times today to cure things like its wedged
video and audio drivers.  Oooh, I'm sooo soory, once again Mr. Linux if
I've offended you with yet another answer replete with example.  FWIW,
NONE of my VMS systems have needed a reboot in weeks.  Thank you Linux
for embracing the WEEENDOZE ideology of maximized uptime. 



>Bons baisers from France.

Buns and brassieres to you too.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/28/2013 12:16:38 AM
Le 28/11/2013 01:16, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>> Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>>> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>>> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
>>>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq,
>>>>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for
>>>>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>>>>
>>>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>>>
>>> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
> ---^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  BTW, this is a tmesis!
>
>
>>> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
>>> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
>>> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
>>> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
>>> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
>>> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
>>>
>>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>>> industry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Maybe people have become so used
>>>> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with
>>>> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>>>
>>> I haven't but then, I have never had a child's toy which turned cyanotic;
>>> I only had a child that turned cyanotic.
>>>
>> bla bla bla
>>
>> Doctor(s) Freud : what do you think about some guys commenting as big
>> scolars their proper death ?
>
> Ah, I see, if you don't like the contrary answer so you simply malign its
> messenger.  You'd be welcomed by open arms here by the current US politic.
>
>
>
>> Is there someone who is just POLITE and can answer the question that
>> have been posed, or you just are so rude that the only thing you can do
>> when a newbie goes there and asks about what can be done in VMS
>> ecosystem is to expose your "science".
>
> What was rude.  I answered the question with examples.
>
>
>
>> Not other cause, for now, about VMS decline : you are the contrary of
>> communities like Linux or other : a bunch of old fashioned aristocrats.
>
> Oh.  I'm oooh sooo sooory.  Yes, Mr. Linux, it IS theee most wonderful
> thing since the invention of toilet paper -- despite the fact that I've
> needed Linux reboots several times today to cure things like its wedged
> video and audio drivers.  Oooh, I'm sooo soory, once again Mr. Linux if
> I've offended you with yet another answer replete with example.  FWIW,
> NONE of my VMS systems have needed a reboot in weeks.  Thank you Linux
> for embracing the WEEENDOZE ideology of maximized uptime.
>
>
>
>> Bons baisers from France.
>
> Buns and brassieres to you too.
>
thinking about VMS

https://scontent-a-cdg.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/p480x480/1463087_548057545279838_1414484302_n.jpg

0
11/28/2013 12:29:07 AM
the question was about DOING somethings

- not about differences between latex, power point, pdf
- not about all the causes of our death (except yours, for sure)
- not about what mama HP can do for us
- not about your "science" (without it, where would we been ?)

And, her majesty VAX, I'm not a linux man, but I just constat THERE IS a 
linux community which know how it can be done when you are in trouble.

But, perhaps the issue is : I don't know what means the word TO DO

So long Suzan



Le 28/11/2013 01:16, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>> Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>>> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>>> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
>>>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq,
>>>>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for
>>>>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>>>>
>>>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>>>
>>> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
> ---^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  BTW, this is a tmesis!
>
>
>>> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
>>> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
>>> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
>>> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
>>> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
>>> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
>>>
>>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>>> industry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>    Maybe people have become so used
>>>> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with
>>>> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>>>
>>> I haven't but then, I have never had a child's toy which turned cyanotic;
>>> I only had a child that turned cyanotic.
>>>
>> bla bla bla
>>
>> Doctor(s) Freud : what do you think about some guys commenting as big
>> scolars their proper death ?
>
> Ah, I see, if you don't like the contrary answer so you simply malign its
> messenger.  You'd be welcomed by open arms here by the current US politic.
>
>
>
>> Is there someone who is just POLITE and can answer the question that
>> have been posed, or you just are so rude that the only thing you can do
>> when a newbie goes there and asks about what can be done in VMS
>> ecosystem is to expose your "science".
>
> What was rude.  I answered the question with examples.
>
>
>
>> Not other cause, for now, about VMS decline : you are the contrary of
>> communities like Linux or other : a bunch of old fashioned aristocrats.
>
> Oh.  I'm oooh sooo sooory.  Yes, Mr. Linux, it IS theee most wonderful
> thing since the invention of toilet paper -- despite the fact that I've
> needed Linux reboots several times today to cure things like its wedged
> video and audio drivers.  Oooh, I'm sooo soory, once again Mr. Linux if
> I've offended you with yet another answer replete with example.  FWIW,
> NONE of my VMS systems have needed a reboot in weeks.  Thank you Linux
> for embracing the WEEENDOZE ideology of maximized uptime.
>
>
>
>> Bons baisers from France.
>
> Buns and brassieres to you too.
>

0
11/28/2013 12:38:06 AM
Le 27/11/2013 21:56, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply a �crit :
> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>
>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq,
>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for
>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
>
> Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used
> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with
> the occasional glitch with other computers.
>
You know something about industry, health care, aeronotics ?
Yes I think. There are used with Blue-screen ?

One hour of hang for NYSE represents how many dollards ?
Who can address that ? Windows 8.1 ? Linux 3.3.2.6.22.github1929 ?

Non-Stop can address that, VMS can address that, some main-frame can 
address that. Some of these guys will go on and address this market. Do 
you want to be one of these ? Do you think sitting on a chair and crying 
will do the job ?

Or the only thing worth it is to demonstrate how clever we are, and how 
much it is a tragedy that no one can see how clever we are ?

0
11/28/2013 12:54:15 AM
In article <5296906f$0$2141$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>the question was about DOING somethings

You need a better english-to-french translator (try Babylon).

The question was:

>Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>(Babylon french translation) Tout ce qui est mission-critiques plus?

To which I answered.  I fail to see how my answering it so offended you;
especially, since it was in response to Phillip Helbig's post.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/28/2013 12:56:35 AM
> since the invention of toilet paper

There is another invention about all that. Do it yourself.
Don't think mama HP will do it for you.

hum ! perhaps I have been rude. I apologize.

0
11/28/2013 1:00:46 AM
Le 28/11/2013 01:56, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <5296906f$0$2141$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>> the question was about DOING somethings
>
> You need a better english-to-french translator (try Babylon).
>
> The question was:
>
>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>> (Babylon french translation) Tout ce qui est mission-critiques plus?
>
> To which I answered.  I fail to see how my answering it so offended you;
> especially, since it was in response to Phillip Helbig's post.
>
We are 28th november. I posted something about doing something for VMS 
ecosystem the 13th november.

I see a very interesting history of computer science, some very 
important things said about differences between latex and power point, 
and nothing about the question I asked.

And as you say, you are going on talking between yourselves, and you 
don't ask anything to me. And, yes, it is rude.

Not only you, her majesty VAX, perhaps you are not the rudest at all, 
and perhaps you are one these guys who consdescend to answer a little.

I apologize. Go on your afternoon tea party. I don't to want to disturb.

Have a look on what was posted the 28th, and say on what issue cited 
there are been answers in 15 days.

 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is there or not an � OpenVMS ecosystem � ? And if there is such an 
ecosystem, how does it exist ?

Like the Susan of the film, it seems for now it is difficult to catch 
�her�, to know �her� needs, how �she� fights for �her� fortune.

In France, in an users club which is an heir of the old Decus (our name 
is �hp-interex france�), we thought it is the time to think about a 
renewal for community actions around the so-called �OpenVMS ecosystem�.

We initiate an in-depth survey about recent events on OpenVMS 
(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-survey-en/4395105). Read it, answer 
it, tell us what you think about it, broadcast it (the disclaimer at the 
bottom of the document is there for legal issues, and protect us again 
misuses, the VMS friends are not concerned by it).

It�s a milestone. For sure, if we have thousands of answers, and the 
global turnover sawn across the answers is trillions of dollars, it 
could be a very good thing for OpenVMS ecosystem.

But it is just some beginning for a long term action. OpenVMS ecosystem 
has to exist as a whole (big companies using it, small companies living 
by it, professionals, third parties, ISV, (hp ?)...) : we need news 
letters, forums, symposium, foundations for universal training,�

But what we need first : ideas, good discussion threads, like here for 
sure, but not only here. Do have a look at our site 
(http://www.hp-interex.fr/#/openvms-engl/4406227), do begin to write to 
us here (pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr), stay on the line.

This fall, some little village from France resists again doom :=). Have 
with us the taste of the �magic potion�.

G�rard Calliet
Vice president of HP-Interex France
pourvms.hpinterex@yahoo.fr
0
11/28/2013 1:15:54 AM
On 13-11-27 17:53, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> I hope that philosophy doesn't enter into Boeing's products.  I'd like NOT
> to board any 7*7s that are just "good enough".

Sokme Boeing and Airbus aircraft use Windows for the "flight bag"
computer. It doesn't drive the aircraft, it is only used to provide the
pilots with documentatioN/information (for instance maps of airports etc).

However, a ALT-CTRL-DEL in the flighyt bag computer might distract the
pilot long enough to cause something serious to happen.



0
JF
11/28/2013 5:37:43 AM
On 13-11-27 20:15, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> But it is just some beginning for a long term action. OpenVMS ecosystem 
> has to exist as a whole (big companies using it, small companies living 
> by it, professionals, third parties, ISV, (hp ?)...) : we need news 
> letters, forums, symposium, foundations for universal training,�


Reality check: HP is keeping NSK for those purposes of mission critical
systems and NSK has the advantage of using stronger hardware that is
better tied with the OS to provide more uptime.

Does HP really need to keep both NSK and VMS ?

NSK won the battle. VMS lost. Accept it.

The only thing left is for VMS customers to make sure their next
platform does not financially benefit HP.

HP has already written off the VMS customer base. Any VMS customer who
stays with HP is icing on the cake to help justify its decision to let
VMS die of starvation.

And be realistic: Have you seen anyone making serious discussion about
buying VMS and investing the large sums of money that would be needed to
catch up back to this decade ? That is a lot of catching up since the
early 1990s with ODS-5.

If none of the pro-VMS folks were able to talk to
LaCarly/Robison/Hurd/Whitman to convince them of the potential of VMS
during the last 13 years, then nobody has the ability to talk to folks
like Warren Buffet or Bill Gates who might have the money and experience
to take on the rebuilding of VMS.


When talking about such an expensive risk, hobbysts hoping for a revival
won't do. You need CEOs talking to real investors about it. This is
above our pay grade.
0
JF
11/28/2013 5:47:35 AM
In article <00ADCF21.AE814A66@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- 
@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: 

> >Is anything mission-critical anymore?
> 
> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
> 
> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
> 
> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
> industry.

How long do they plan to stay with VMS?

0
helbig
11/28/2013 5:55:29 AM
On 13-11-28 00:55, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:

>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>> industry.
> 
> How long do they plan to stay with VMS?

Do they know the news that HP has stopped development of VMS, that VMS
will not be available on new computer systems, and that the current ones
will be end of sale in 2015 ?

If they know about it, and have decided to not start a migration to new
platform, I would be very interested in their logic/reasoning for this
strategy.
0
JF
11/28/2013 6:01:27 AM
In article <5296dc39$0$34967$c3e8da3$460562f1@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes: 

> On 13-11-28 00:55, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
> 
> >> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
> >> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
> >> industry.
> > 
> > How long do they plan to stay with VMS?
> 
> Do they know the news that HP has stopped development of VMS, that VMS
> will not be available on new computer systems, and that the current ones
> will be end of sale in 2015 ?
> 
> If they know about it, and have decided to not start a migration to new
> platform, I would be very interested in their logic/reasoning for this
> strategy.

Of course, if there demands will not change in the future, and if they 
have enough spare hardware, there is no need to migrate.  How many PDPs 
are still running today?

0
helbig
11/28/2013 6:10:52 AM
Le 28/11/2013 06:47, JF Mezei a �crit :
 > Does HP really need to keep both NSK and VMS ?

 >

 > NSK won the battle. VMS lost. Accept it.

   It is the point, here.

I think guys around cov mix up the internal HP battle, which VMS lost - 
in a fiction where they think about themselves like HP executives -, and 
the battle they themselves could do.

We have lost battles, but the war goes on. A bad general is someone who 
prefers his wounded pride to real auto-critic and thinking about new 
ways of fighting.

It seems you have done your mourning, and I didn't, in what you say.

On the contrary, because you haven�t done your mourning and are going on 
crying, you cannot think about action.

Yes HP could need VMS and NSK, because for the next 10 years, VMS is a 
captive market for selling last itaniums.

Yes HP could need VMS to have some coherent talks about Odysseus 
convergence.

Yes HP could need not killing VMS ecosystem, if there were a VMS 
ecosystem, and if, for example, the VMS professionals were not only 
crying against mama HP who is not kind. For the moment, mama HP is very 
glad to see her hated sons going one by one to have some favor.

I am very surprised about the no-reaction of the VMS community since 
June 2013. Death of VMS generating less reaction than minor OSes ! As I 
said in (pdf :=) ) presentations, we are good guys : mama HP sends the 
special death kernel AST, and we do $exit. Ok, mama.

About mama HP : she is not able to make BCS an healthy business. Why ? 
Because she doesn't understand the nature of BCS market and does the 
wrong choices. This market will go elsewhere. The point is : how will we 
go by this new way of doing some profit in a BCS market ?

I am not a soothsayer. But it is not impossible that BCS could be sold 
altogether. What are we doing to help a buyer know about us ? A buyer 
who would have some intelligence about what is a BCS market ?
It is a fiction, ok. Mama HP surviving all the mistakes done is also a 
sort of fiction.

In science a fiction is called simulator. Thinking about scenario, 
constructing the consequences, and so being able to predict some things 
and prepare some actions. Example of a battle, in a war not ended. 
There are a lot of battles like that�

�

As the best way to  no win is to no participate, the best way to lost a 
war is to capitulate.

0
windows
11/28/2013 9:20:56 AM
Le 28/11/2013 06:47, JF Mezei a �crit :
> If none of the pro-VMS folks were able to talk to
> LaCarly/Robison/Hurd/Whitman to convince them of the potential of VMS
> during the last 13 years, then nobody has the ability to talk to folks
> like Warren Buffet or Bill Gates who might have the money and experience
> to take on the rebuilding of VMS.
>
>
> When talking about such an expensive risk, hobbysts hoping for a revival
> won't do. You need CEOs talking to real investors about it. This is
> above our pay grade.
For sure, you are  wright, here.

But perhaps we didn't convince because we didn't get the good reasons, 
and we didn't talk with the good guys. I don't think Warren Buffet or 
Bill Gates are good, here. They could have money and experience, but I 
don't think they could like a very-long-term-and-not-so-big market.

I think our big mistake about all that is that we have not constructed a 
strong professionnal community : we were always depending from the 
supplier. Big mistake. We were not as pure Open Source communities which 
depend only of themselves, ok, VMS is another thing, which needs an 
industrial supplier, ok. But we could have anticipated HP was the wrong 
guy, and that we had to manifeste. We have been old fashioned in this 
sense : not thinking in terms of ecosystem, going on with the brilliant 
Ken Olsen vision of computer industry.

An ecosystem is : specific needs, users, hardware suppliers, software 
suppliers, specific technicals, story of all that, professionnals.

Our pay grade is somewhere in this complex realm. It is not because what 
would be nice is above our pay grade that we have not to act.

I think the first thing which is under our responsability is to 
constitute knowledge about this ecosystem. Will this work produce 
something ? Perhaps yes, perhaps not. We just have to do it.

A last idea : perhaps there is here some opportunity. It is not the same 
thing a supplier which let a product lengthly die (no investment on VMS 
for 10 years), and annoucing EOL of a product abruptly, while some big 
customers steel rely on it. It is a sort of scandal and about a scandal, 
if you are smart, you can do some buzz.

Just do it.
0
windows
11/28/2013 9:52:34 AM
On 13-11-28 04:20, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> Yes HP could need VMS and NSK, because for the next 10 years, VMS is a 
> captive market for selling last itaniums.

You need to understand that Itanium is an albatros for HP. A money
losing project. The quicker it is put out of its misery, the better.

If VMS were to survive, step one is to port to another platform. HP did
so for X86 before formally annoucing the obvious end of IA64 everyone
already knows about.

Also, since VMS doesn't even run on the last IA64s, it can't help
sell/prolong the life of Itanium. And since Itanium provides no
performance advantage and costs more than x86, what is the point of it ?

I don't have current statistics, but at the time there were still 400k
VMS customers, the proportion of VAX vs Alpha was quite high. (Somewhere
near 40 to 50% VAX)

If there are still more Alpha customers than IA64 customers, HP might
make more money restarting Alpha EV7z systems for a while.


> I am very surprised about the no-reaction of the VMS community since 
> June 2013. Death of VMS generating less reaction than minor OSes !

People accepted it was inevitable. HP had warned people very clearly
that VMS was going nowhere post IA64 and it was very obvious to everyone
that IA64 was going nowhere "soon".

When HP cannabalised VMS engineering and replaced them with what is
barely capable of mature software maintenance, it was pretty obvious VMS
was going nowhere. (combined with the "we will not port it beyond IA64
clear messages from HP).

When DECUS accepted to change itself into an aim-less organisation
trting to suport any/every operating system Compaq and HP had, it lost
its value and certaintly lost its ability to fight for VMS.

When large customers heard the call by Palmer and later LaCarly to move
off VMS, they did so without much of a fight.  This is different from
NSK where a few high profile customers such as NASDAQ obviousyly
convinced HP to change the "we won't port beyond IA64" and continue NSK
on x86.


Nothing here is new. People who have watched this since the 1990s saw
the company taking steps to wind down VMS. Its death was postponed a few
times.  But by now, due to lack of development since the 1990s,  the
current VMS is so far behind in technology that it isn't worth porting,
unless you also accompany that with a huge investment.

Consider also that since HP fired VMS' best assets: the engineering
team, there would be nobody to rebuild VMS with modern tech and bring it
up to date. The guys in india can barely recompile the DIR.EXE without
making blunders.

0
JF
11/28/2013 10:37:34 AM
Le 28/11/2013 11:37, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-28 04:20, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>
>> Yes HP could need VMS and NSK, because for the next 10 years, VMS is a
>> captive market for selling last itaniums.
>
> You need to understand that Itanium is an albatros for HP. A money
> losing project. The quicker it is put out of its misery, the better.
We all understand that. The point is : there are some stocks, some end 
of fabrics to end gracefully. For that VMS could be used. Not for 
profit, only to attenuate losses.
>
> If VMS were to survive, step one is to port to another platform. HP did
> so for X86 before formally annoucing the obvious end of IA64 everyone
> already knows about.
>
> Also, since VMS doesn't even run on the last IA64s, it can't help
> sell/prolong the life of Itanium. And since Itanium provides no
> performance advantage and costs more than x86, what is the point of it ?
It is not such an investment to go on on the last IA64 (it does work, 
and, if you accept not to have all the external devices, you have just a 
little more more than validation).
What is the point ? For a majority of sites the issue is : I have 
millions of lines to port, all my environment system is under DCL, if I 
have not decades for transition, I don't have the cash to do it, and I 
am at risk.
Others use cluster and cannot stop one minute (I don't think it is a 
majority).
A lot of customers, like with VAX or Alpha, because of their 
specificities, are glad to buy now last itanium and going on for 15 years.
What you say for VAXes or Alphas can be said for itanium.
You say : with VAX or Alpha there were not EOL of VMS announced. It is 
the point : announcing now the EOL is a marketing bug. Why not say : we 
don't kown, perhaps it would worth it porting VMS in 10 years to x86, 
for now we give you and us some time.
Saying that you sell your last itaniums, you get time to convince users 
going on another HP platform, you do what you said about Odysseus.
The EOL announce is a big marketing bug, which a real company, like IBM 
would not have done, for example. Meg is or incompetent, and have to be 
replaced, or have bad advisors, and she must fire them.
Yes, yes : for the turnover it represents, it's a joke.
The importance of that depends also of our reaction. In sixth months, 
big customers, one by one, went to HP and cry. It seems that siw month 
later 2020 becomes 2025. What could be the effect if customer organize a 
little themselves, talk about a marketing bug, publish facts in Wall 
Street Journal ? Do you think Wall Street observers would not phone Meg 
and asks questions ?
>
> I don't have current statistics, but at the time there were still 400k
> VMS customers, the proportion of VAX vs Alpha was quite high. (Somewhere
> near 40 to 50% VAX)
>
> If there are still more Alpha customers than IA64 customers, HP might
> make more money restarting Alpha EV7z systems for a while.
>
>
>> I am very surprised about the no-reaction of the VMS community since
>> June 2013. Death of VMS generating less reaction than minor OSes !
>
> People accepted it was inevitable. HP had warned people very clearly
> that VMS was going nowhere post IA64 and it was very obvious to everyone
> that IA64 was going nowhere "soon".
>
> When HP cannabalised VMS engineering and replaced them with what is
> barely capable of mature software maintenance, it was pretty obvious VMS
> was going nowhere. (combined with the "we will not port it beyond IA64
> clear messages from HP).
>
> When DECUS accepted to change itself into an aim-less organisation
> trting to suport any/every operating system Compaq and HP had, it lost
> its value and certaintly lost its ability to fight for VMS.
>
> When large customers heard the call by Palmer and later LaCarly to move
> off VMS, they did so without much of a fight.  This is different from
> NSK where a few high profile customers such as NASDAQ obviousyly
> convinced HP to change the "we won't port beyond IA64" and continue NSK
> on x86.
>
>
When, when, when. I love storytelling. Do you think I am not aware of 
all that ? Everyone is aware of that. Does it answer to companies which 
ARE now in trouble ? Sorry, guys, but we didn't do anything when it was 
time and now there is no more to do. I hope for you that you are not 
consultant for this sort of company, or perhaps you are retired and you 
write bokes, I don't know.
It is always easier analysing a defeat then going back to battles.

> Nothing here is new. People who have watched this since the 1990s saw
> the company taking steps to wind down VMS. Its death was postponed a few
> times.  But by now, due to lack of development since the 1990s,  the
> current VMS is so far behind in technology that it isn't worth porting,
> unless you also accompany that with a huge investment.
>
> Consider also that since HP fired VMS' best assets: the engineering
> team, there would be nobody to rebuild VMS with modern tech and bring it
> up to date. The guys in india can barely recompile the DIR.EXE without
> making blunders.
>
The old aristocratic way. They cannot be as clever as we are. Big 
difference between VMS community and Open Source community : VMS is an 
art for happy few that it cannot be transmitted, it would be some kind 
of profanation.
0
windows
11/28/2013 11:35:52 AM
In article <l76lsh$nnj$1@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>In article <00ADCF21.AE814A66@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman- 
>@SendSpamHere.ORG writes: 
>
>> >Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>> 
>> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
>> 
>> One of my clients has multiple servers, co-lo sites using multiple servers
>> and the whole shebang is clustered.  Disks are shadowed over the expansive
>> distance cluster too.  Why?  Because if they are not up and running, their
>> fleet of leased cars are not running.  Is that mission critical?  It IS if
>> customers can not start their cars to travel to work, appointments, doctor
>> visits, hospital, courthouse, school children pickup rendezvous and more.
>> 
>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>> industry.
>
>How long do they plan to stay with VMS?

That I honestly do not know.  The auto leaser has newer Itanium boxes and, as
I see it, more horsepower in them than they'll ever need.  They are very very
seriously concerned about the uptime, making investments in new UPS/generator
as well as other redundancy in their systems.  That aerospace parts business
has been on VMS since the advent of the MicroVAX.  Their applications are a 
behemoth of COBOL that's been brewing since before moving on to VMS.  RMS is
probably their biggest tie into VMS there.  They recently moved shop into a
larger co-lo site, so I'd wager they have no plans of moving off VMS anytime
soon.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/28/2013 12:55:26 PM
In article <5296dc39$0$34967$c3e8da3$460562f1@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-11-28 00:55, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
>
>>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>>> industry.
>> 
>> How long do they plan to stay with VMS?
>
>Do they know the news that HP has stopped development of VMS, that VMS
>will not be available on new computer systems, and that the current ones
>will be end of sale in 2015 ?
>
>If they know about it, and have decided to not start a migration to new
>platform, I would be very interested in their logic/reasoning for this
>strategy.

What makes you think they need to?  I still have/love my 1987 Mustang GT
Convertible

http://tmesis.com/pix/VAXMOBILE.JPG

and, while there are newer models, I have *NO* intention of replacing it.

Something you can better relate to is my bicycle from ~1980.  

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/142/399259257_ddd62084bc_z.jpg

It's still plenty fast and I haven't seen any significant improvements in
any open-source bicycles. ;)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/28/2013 1:03:17 PM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:

> A lot of customers, like with VAX or Alpha, because of their 
> specificities, are glad to buy now last itanium and going on for 15 years.
> What you say for VAXes or Alphas can be said for itanium.
> You say : with VAX or Alpha there were not EOL of VMS announced. It is 
> the point : announcing now the EOL is a marketing bug. Why not say : we 
> don't kown, perhaps it would worth it porting VMS in 10 years to x86, 
> for now we give you and us some time.

It's always the economy, stupid.
Even before that Oracle debacle,
VMS related business brought in
less than $100M annual revenue (not profit),
i.e. less than the dead horse Windoze-on-Itanic.
But that was when BCS had between $2B and $4B,
which is now reduced to $1B, and VMS shrunk
accordingly, to probably $30M or less.
Compare this pathetic income with HP's total
of $100B or more. HP couldn't care less.
If VMS is so super-important for so many
rich companies, why don't they buy more VMS gear
so it can stay alive?

> Saying that you sell your last itaniums, you get time to convince users 
> going on another HP platform, you do what you said about Odysseus.
> The EOL announce is a big marketing bug, which a real company, like IBM 
> would not have done, for example. 

Don't count on IBM on this one.
Whenever one of their products turned unprofitable or
low margin, they had no problems EOL'ing it.
And customers got over it.

> The old aristocratic way. They cannot be as clever as we are. Big 
> difference between VMS community and Open Source community : VMS is an 
> art for happy few that it cannot be transmitted, it would be some kind 
> of profanation.

The difference to OS community is they have incentives.
Creating a new app for the Linux box on someone's desk
makes that box better and (hopefully) solves a problem
that person wants to have solved.
Now what VMS box can I put on my desk and what kind of
apps should I run that I can't have with other platforms?

0
Michael
11/28/2013 1:06:29 PM
Le 28/11/2013 14:06, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>
>> A lot of customers, like with VAX or Alpha, because of their
>> specificities, are glad to buy now last itanium and going on for 15
>> years.
>> What you say for VAXes or Alphas can be said for itanium.
>> You say : with VAX or Alpha there were not EOL of VMS announced. It is
>> the point : announcing now the EOL is a marketing bug. Why not say :
>> we don't kown, perhaps it would worth it porting VMS in 10 years to
>> x86, for now we give you and us some time.
>
> It's always the economy, stupid.
> Even before that Oracle debacle,
> VMS related business brought in
> less than $100M annual revenue (not profit),
> i.e. less than the dead horse Windoze-on-Itanic.
> But that was when BCS had between $2B and $4B,
> which is now reduced to $1B, and VMS shrunk
> accordingly, to probably $30M or less.
> Compare this pathetic income with HP's total
> of $100B or more. HP couldn't care less.
> If VMS is so super-important for so many
> rich companies, why don't they buy more VMS gear
> so it can stay alive?
Because it's always the economic, stupid :=)
I don't say that many companies for which VMS EOL is a factor of risk 
are not stupid.
You can see eceomic's, world wide, as the finest way of firing his feet.
I say in some peripheral domains, it is possible to do some reasonable 
things, without illusion about the big picture.
I think mission critical domain is on of these : say mission critical is 
1% of the global IT market, say 50% of these companies are stupid, and 
go on buying cloud. We get for us 0.5 % of global market. For HP it is 
nothing. For clever HP (yes I know, it is a contradiction) it could be 
"our luxury line", and "we add 0,1 % on it". And, you know that, in 
France the richest man is Mr LVMH, all luxury products.
Next time in Paris : VMS fashion week  ? :=)
>
>> Saying that you sell your last itaniums, you get time to convince
>> users going on another HP platform, you do what you said about Odysseus.
>> The EOL announce is a big marketing bug, which a real company, like
>> IBM would not have done, for example.
>
> Don't count on IBM on this one.
> Whenever one of their products turned unprofitable or
> low margin, they had no problems EOL'ing it.
> And customers got over it.
>
IBM would do it... if AFTER INVESTMENT, there is no more profit.
IBM invested a lot in SOA, and SOA is usefull to AS400 to go on with profit.
It is no so stupid, also for big stupid companies, to be a little bit 
clever.
>> The old aristocratic way. They cannot be as clever as we are. Big
>> difference between VMS community and Open Source community : VMS is an
>> art for happy few that it cannot be transmitted, it would be some kind
>> of profanation.
>
> The difference to OS community is they have incentives.
> Creating a new app for the Linux box on someone's desk
> makes that box better and (hopefully) solves a problem
> that person wants to have solved.
> Now what VMS box can I put on my desk and what kind of
> apps should I run that I can't have with other platforms?
>
You speak about linux peripheral. Linux community is there also for 
linux heart. Linux community founded linux heart. It is a community of 
co-founders of their tools. And they are able to transmit each other 
knowledge from heart to skin, they like doing this. We are not able to 
stomach others than sealed guru can maintain our sanctuary.
0
windows
11/28/2013 1:31:01 PM
Le 28/11/2013 14:03, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <5296dc39$0$34967$c3e8da3$460562f1@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> On 13-11-28 00:55, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
>>
>>>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>>>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>>>> industry.
>>>
>>> How long do they plan to stay with VMS?
>>
>> Do they know the news that HP has stopped development of VMS, that VMS
>> will not be available on new computer systems, and that the current ones
>> will be end of sale in 2015 ?
>>
>> If they know about it, and have decided to not start a migration to new
>> platform, I would be very interested in their logic/reasoning for this
>> strategy.
>
> What makes you think they need to?  I still have/love my 1987 Mustang GT
> Convertible
>
> http://tmesis.com/pix/VAXMOBILE.JPG
>
> and, while there are newer models, I have *NO* intention of replacing it.
>
> Something you can better relate to is my bicycle from ~1980.
>
> http://farm1.staticflickr.com/142/399259257_ddd62084bc_z.jpg
>
> It's still plenty fast and I haven't seen any significant improvements in
> any open-source bicycles. ;)
>
You are just a zero growth activist !!! What can we do with zero growth 
activists ??? :=)
0
ISO
11/28/2013 3:18:54 PM
VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>>> In article <l75mah$ah2$2@online.de>, helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>>>
>>>> Is anything mission-critical anymore?
>>>
>>> ABSO-FUCKING-LUTLEY!!!
> ---^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  BTW, this is a tmesis!

And an excellent example of one too!

-- 
Paul Sture

0
Paul
11/28/2013 4:20:10 PM
VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>
>>Bons baisers from France.
>
> Buns and brassieres to you too.

LOL! He sent you "nice kisses"

Don't worry, I'll keep it quiet :-)

-- 
Paul Sture

0
Paul
11/28/2013 4:46:09 PM
In article <hj8kma-bg82.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
> > In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
> >>Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> >
> >>Bons baisers from France.
> >
> > Buns and brassieres to you too.
> 
> LOL! He sent you "nice kisses"
> 

doesn't "baiser" have some other meaning as well?
0
m
11/28/2013 4:50:28 PM
Le 28/11/2013 17:50, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
> In article <hj8kma-bg82.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> writes:
>> VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> In article <5296844a$0$2042$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
>> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>>>> Le 27/11/2013 23:50, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>>>
>>>> Bons baisers from France.
>>>
>>> Buns and brassieres to you too.
>>
>> LOL! He sent you "nice kisses"
>>
>
> doesn't "baiser" have some other meaning as well?
>
There is some thing like that, but, here, we ough to use passive form.

Some "pride and prejudice" story, but with other words than Jane Austin 
ones.
0
ISO
11/28/2013 6:02:12 PM
On 13-11-28 06:35, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:

> We all understand that. The point is : there are some stocks, some end 
> of fabrics to end gracefully. For that VMS could be used. Not for 
> profit, only to attenuate losses.

While HP stretched the deployment of fixed number of IA64 generations
over as many years as it could to pretend that IA64 would have a long
life, it has gotten to the point where there is nothing left to stretch.
So a very different prioroty starts: get to end of sales ASAP so that
the 5 year timer for obligation to provide support/patches can start.


> It is not such an investment to go on on the last IA64 (it does work, 

It is if you have to build an engineering team from scratch, one with
skills and experience to do that.  And what payback will you have ?

Of the Poulson VMS sales you might get, how many of those customers
would have gotten Tukwilas if Poulsons weren't avaialble ? (aka: porting
to Poulson may not get you additional sales).

> What is the point ? For a majority of sites the issue is : I have 
> millions of lines to port, all my environment system is under DCL, if I 
> have not decades for transition,

Sorry to be blunt, but the message to get off VMS has been around for
many years. It didn't take 10 years after Palmer told SWIFT to move
international funds transfers off of VMS.  When HP ignored VMS on the
Sept 7 2001 merger announcement, it should have been clear it wasn't a
strategic product.

When HP finally said something about VMS when the emrger was
signed/sealed/delivered in may 2002, the message was quiet clear: VMS is
only for installed base and we'll maintain it until you migrate to
something else.

That message has been consistent throughout HP's onwership of VMS.

And then came the even clearer message that VMS would not be ported
beyond IA64, with the media already talking about the end of IA64 coming.

Sorry, but if you have not begun to move off VMS, it is because you had
your head in the sand comme une autruche.


> Others use cluster and cannot stop one minute (I don't think it is a 
> majority).

Plenty of people have deployed mission critical on Unix and some even on
Windows. Yeah, VMS clustering was really nice and elegant. But you can
achieve similar results with totally different ways of making your IT
service always available.


> You say : with VAX or Alpha there were not EOL of VMS announced. It is 
> the point : announcing now the EOL is a marketing bug. 

Now, it is HP finally admitting that when it destroyed VMS engineering
in 2010, it never had any intentions of further developping VMS. It is a
done deal. They are only admitting it now.

HP has already burned the bridge behind. There is no coming back.



> The EOL announce is a big marketing bug, which a real company, like IBM 
> would not have done, 

VMS is not strategic to HP. They were never interested in it.  They
inherited it when LaCarly bought Compaq to delay her being fired.

> Street Journal ? Do you think Wall Street observers would not phone Meg 
> and asks questions ?

They do during the quartlery teleconferences. And the questions don't
concern such a small portion of HP.

Now, if VMS customers were important enough to call up those Wall Street
Casino Analysts and mention how they will be shifting their money away
from HP because HP has abandonned BCS for the last few years (akaL drop
in BCS is due to HP mismanagement and refusal to move those OS to x86),
then perhaps the press might start to ask questions.

But the remaining VMS customers obviously don't have the clout to call
up the big Wall Street Casino firms to make those comments. So VMS'
death is ignored.


0
JF
11/28/2013 9:02:40 PM
On 13-11-28 11:50, Michael Kraemer wrote:

>> >>Bons baisers from France.

> doesn't "baiser" have some other meaning as well?


"baiser" , the noun refers to a kiss in the format definition.

"baiser" the verb, refers to certain cardio vascular exercises where a
man does pushups over a naked woman. But his is the colloquial
definition, not a formal one.

0
JF
11/28/2013 9:08:29 PM
In article <52975edf$0$2386$426a34cc@news.free.fr>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?= <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes:
>Le 28/11/2013 14:03, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
>> In article <5296dc39$0$34967$c3e8da3$460562f1@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>> On 13-11-28 00:55, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Another has the logistics of the aerospace parts industry in its clutches.
>>>>> If they're down there's a trickle down effect across the entire aerospace
>>>>> industry.
>>>>
>>>> How long do they plan to stay with VMS?
>>>
>>> Do they know the news that HP has stopped development of VMS, that VMS
>>> will not be available on new computer systems, and that the current ones
>>> will be end of sale in 2015 ?
>>>
>>> If they know about it, and have decided to not start a migration to new
>>> platform, I would be very interested in their logic/reasoning for this
>>> strategy.
>>
>> What makes you think they need to?  I still have/love my 1987 Mustang GT
>> Convertible
>>
>> http://tmesis.com/pix/VAXMOBILE.JPG
>>
>> and, while there are newer models, I have *NO* intention of replacing it.
>>
>> Something you can better relate to is my bicycle from ~1980.
>>
>> http://farm1.staticflickr.com/142/399259257_ddd62084bc_z.jpg
>>
>> It's still plenty fast and I haven't seen any significant improvements in
>> any open-source bicycles. ;)
>>
>You are just a zero growth activist !!! What can we do with zero growth 
>activists ??? :=)

No, I'm just a frugal, if-t-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it realist.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/29/2013 3:40:14 AM
In article <5297b0ce$0$9716$c3e8da3$aae71a0a@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-11-28 11:50, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>
>>> >>Bons baisers from France.
>
>> doesn't "baiser" have some other meaning as well?
>
>
>"baiser" , the noun refers to a kiss in the format definition.
>
>"baiser" the verb, refers to certain cardio vascular exercises where a
>man does pushups over a naked woman. But his is the colloquial
>definition, not a formal one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iXGbJKjNxU

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
11/29/2013 3:51:48 AM
Le 28/11/2013 22:02, JF Mezei a �crit :
> On 13-11-28 06:35, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>
>> We all understand that. The point is : there are some stocks, some end
>> of fabrics to end gracefully. For that VMS could be used. Not for
>> profit, only to attenuate losses.
>
> While HP stretched the deployment of fixed number of IA64 generations
> over as many years as it could to pretend that IA64 would have a long
> life, it has gotten to the point where there is nothing left to stretch.
> So a very different prioroty starts: get to end of sales ASAP so that
> the 5 year timer for obligation to provide support/patches can start.
>
>
>> It is not such an investment to go on on the last IA64 (it does work,
>
> It is if you have to build an engineering team from scratch, one with
> skills and experience to do that.  And what payback will you have ?
>
> Of the Poulson VMS sales you might get, how many of those customers
> would have gotten Tukwilas if Poulsons weren't avaialble ? (aka: porting
> to Poulson may not get you additional sales).
>
>> What is the point ? For a majority of sites the issue is : I have
>> millions of lines to port, all my environment system is under DCL, if I
>> have not decades for transition,
>
> Sorry to be blunt, but the message to get off VMS has been around for
> many years. It didn't take 10 years after Palmer told SWIFT to move
> international funds transfers off of VMS.  When HP ignored VMS on the
> Sept 7 2001 merger announcement, it should have been clear it wasn't a
> strategic product.
>
> When HP finally said something about VMS when the emrger was
> signed/sealed/delivered in may 2002, the message was quiet clear: VMS is
> only for installed base and we'll maintain it until you migrate to
> something else.
>
> That message has been consistent throughout HP's onwership of VMS.
>
> And then came the even clearer message that VMS would not be ported
> beyond IA64, with the media already talking about the end of IA64 coming.
>
> Sorry, but if you have not begun to move off VMS, it is because you had
> your head in the sand comme une autruche.
>
>
>> Others use cluster and cannot stop one minute (I don't think it is a
>> majority).
>
> Plenty of people have deployed mission critical on Unix and some even on
> Windows. Yeah, VMS clustering was really nice and elegant. But you can
> achieve similar results with totally different ways of making your IT
> service always available.
>
>
>> You say : with VAX or Alpha there were not EOL of VMS announced. It is
>> the point : announcing now the EOL is a marketing bug.
>
> Now, it is HP finally admitting that when it destroyed VMS engineering
> in 2010, it never had any intentions of further developping VMS. It is a
> done deal. They are only admitting it now.
>
> HP has already burned the bridge behind. There is no coming back.
>
>
>
>> The EOL announce is a big marketing bug, which a real company, like IBM
>> would not have done,
>
> VMS is not strategic to HP. They were never interested in it.  They
> inherited it when LaCarly bought Compaq to delay her being fired.
>
>> Street Journal ? Do you think Wall Street observers would not phone Meg
>> and asks questions ?
>
> They do during the quartlery teleconferences. And the questions don't
> concern such a small portion of HP.
>
> Now, if VMS customers were important enough to call up those Wall Street
> Casino Analysts and mention how they will be shifting their money away
> from HP because HP has abandonned BCS for the last few years (akaL drop
> in BCS is due to HP mismanagement and refusal to move those OS to x86),
> then perhaps the press might start to ask questions.
>
> But the remaining VMS customers obviously don't have the clout to call
> up the big Wall Street Casino firms to make those comments. So VMS'
> death is ignored.
>
>
hum ! all that let me remember a story :

Max and John speak about their next hollidays in Africa.
Max : �you know there are a lot of lions in Africa�
John : �if you know how to do with a lion, no problem�
Max : �how do YOU do, you don�t know anything about it�
John : �first thing, have with you a gun�
Max : �and if You meet the lion and have forgot the gun�
John : �I �ll never forgot the gun�
Max : �and if you have no munitions ?�
John : �I will always have munitions�
Max : �and if you gun is blocked ?�
John : �ok, I keep cool, I don�t move, and the lion will go away�
Max : �and if runs back you�
John : �I will climb a tree�
Max : �and if there is not any tree ?�
John : �hum, Max, you are for me or for the lion ?�

0
windows
11/29/2013 9:20:12 AM
Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
> In article <5295b345$0$3650$426a34cc@news.free.fr>,
> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22G=E9rard_Calliet_=28pia-sofer=29=22?=
> <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> writes: 
> 
>> I agree VMS is particularly old, because of no investment from compaq, 
>> HP,... but it can access some things not addressed somewhere else, for 
>> long life IT systems, very mission critical...
> 
> Is anything mission-critical anymore?  Maybe people have become so used 
> to the blue screen via their own PCs that they don't have a problem with 
> the occasional glitch with other computers.
> 

My son works at a nuclear power station .....
0
David
11/29/2013 6:11:39 PM
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On Monday, 18 November 2013 17:40:55 UTC, Simon Clubley  wrote:

>> I think the point Michael is trying to make is that if you want to revive
>> VMS so that it targets a larger user base, then it's got to be capable of
>> doing the jobs that this larger user base typically carry out.
>
> With the greatest possible respect: if you are a manufacturer of volume cars 
> with a struggling sideline in minibuses, you don't *necessarily* revive the 
> minibus business by making it more car-like. You might want to look at what 
> your competitors are and are not doing in the minibus market. You might look at 
> what they are doing that succeeds, and what they are not doing that could 
> succeed for you if you invested in doing it well. You might even decide to sell
> off the minibus business to someone with a serious interest in minibuses.

Here is a real life example, except with vans rather than minibuses. 
This is one part of the story about the VW LT range of commercial
vehicles introduced in 1975 to replace the VW Type 2.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_LT#1st_generation_LT_.28Typ_28.2FTyp_21.29>

At its introduction to the UK, the LT range was sold by
VW-Audi dealers and sales were truly disappointing. A couple of
oft-quoted statements at the time were that the Audi owner didn't want
to see his pride and joy stood next to an oily truck in a service bay,
and the salesmen would much prefer to talk to an executive in a business
suit than a truck driver.

When VW and MAN Trucks entered into a joint manufacturing agreement to
produce what would be known as the MT range of commercial vehicles and
fill the gap between the LT and MAN's heavy duty trucks, the logical
move was to transfer sales of the LT range from the VW-Audi car dealers
to the network of truck dealers already selling MAN heavy goods
vehicles.

This was done, and the result was that more LT trucks were sold in the
first few months of operation than had been sold in the previous 4
years.

Incidentally, there was also a fundamental difference in the customer
expectations of spare parts availability.  The truck dealers and their
suppliers understood that the lack of parts in stock could lead to
income earning vehicles being off the road; the car dealers did not.

> Or you could do what HP are apparently doing and let the (minibus) business 
> wither on the vine, while others are still succeeding in the sector.
>
> Same for computers and operating systems. One size does not always fit all 
> needs, whatever the modern IT department may wish.

I always saw VMS as one of  the computer world's counterparts to
commercial vehicles.  Certainly not glamorous (except perhaps for a
certain niche), but a piece of the supply chain without which you
wouldn't get your cornflakes on the table, fuel for your car etc etc.

> The end of the mainframe (the IBM-style mainframe) has been predicted for a 
> long time. Windows hasn't replaced it yet, not even the much-vaunted but 
> largely ignored DataCentre Edition.

A quick wind back to 2008 here when Windows Server 2008 was released:

on 7-Dec-2008 Hoff wrote:

"Microsoft finally got its Windows products into the Enterprise
Computing market."

<http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1167>

In 2010 I was under a lot of pressure to do a Server 2010 admin course,
which I did.  The odd thing was that almost everybody in the Windows
world I talked to was still on Windows Server 2003, blaming the cost
of migration and state of the economy.

Is it perhaps the same thinking which has lead to the DataCenter (sic)
Edition being ignored?

> VMS may or may not have a commercial future, but attempting to directly revive 
> it as a volume desktop OS would look (to many people) like high risk low reward.

Indeed.

> On the other hand if one were to rebadge VMS as a server for virtual desktop
> infrastructure, which might be trendy again one day... Then again, for those 
> not permanently welded to Windows, what's needed for VDI that Linux/BSD doesn't 
> already have covered?

There are several elephants in the room which many people are
ignoring.  One of them is certainly security,

> Oh well, we'll see.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
Paul
11/30/2013 1:32:33 PM
In article <h06pma-8b9.ln1@news.chingola.ch>,
	Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> writes:
> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>> On Monday, 18 November 2013 17:40:55 UTC, Simon Clubley  wrote:
> 
>>> I think the point Michael is trying to make is that if you want to revive
>>> VMS so that it targets a larger user base, then it's got to be capable of
>>> doing the jobs that this larger user base typically carry out.
>>
>> With the greatest possible respect: if you are a manufacturer of volume cars 
>> with a struggling sideline in minibuses, you don't *necessarily* revive the 
>> minibus business by making it more car-like. You might want to look at what 
>> your competitors are and are not doing in the minibus market. You might look at 
>> what they are doing that succeeds, and what they are not doing that could 
>> succeed for you if you invested in doing it well. You might even decide to sell
>> off the minibus business to someone with a serious interest in minibuses.
> 
> Here is a real life example, except with vans rather than minibuses. 
> This is one part of the story about the VW LT range of commercial
> vehicles introduced in 1975 to replace the VW Type 2.
> 
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_LT#1st_generation_LT_.28Typ_28.2FTyp_21.29>
> 
> At its introduction to the UK, the LT range was sold by
> VW-Audi dealers and sales were truly disappointing. A couple of
> oft-quoted statements at the time were that the Audi owner didn't want
> to see his pride and joy stood next to an oily truck in a service bay,
> and the salesmen would much prefer to talk to an executive in a business
> suit than a truck driver.
> 
> When VW and MAN Trucks entered into a joint manufacturing agreement to
> produce what would be known as the MT range of commercial vehicles and
> fill the gap between the LT and MAN's heavy duty trucks, the logical
> move was to transfer sales of the LT range from the VW-Audi car dealers
> to the network of truck dealers already selling MAN heavy goods
> vehicles.
> 
> This was done, and the result was that more LT trucks were sold in the
> first few months of operation than had been sold in the previous 4
> years.
> 
> Incidentally, there was also a fundamental difference in the customer
> expectations of spare parts availability.  The truck dealers and their
> suppliers understood that the lack of parts in stock could lead to
> income earning vehicles being off the road; the car dealers did not.
> 
>> Or you could do what HP are apparently doing and let the (minibus) business 
>> wither on the vine, while others are still succeeding in the sector.
>>
>> Same for computers and operating systems. One size does not always fit all 
>> needs, whatever the modern IT department may wish.
> 
> I always saw VMS as one of  the computer world's counterparts to
> commercial vehicles.  Certainly not glamorous (except perhaps for a
> certain niche), but a piece of the supply chain without which you
> wouldn't get your cornflakes on the table, fuel for your car etc etc.
> 
>> The end of the mainframe (the IBM-style mainframe) has been predicted for a 
>> long time. Windows hasn't replaced it yet, not even the much-vaunted but 
>> largely ignored DataCentre Edition.
> 
> A quick wind back to 2008 here when Windows Server 2008 was released:
> 
> on 7-Dec-2008 Hoff wrote:
> 
> "Microsoft finally got its Windows products into the Enterprise
> Computing market."
> 
> <http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/1167>
> 
> In 2010 I was under a lot of pressure to do a Server 2010 admin course,
> which I did.  The odd thing was that almost everybody in the Windows
> world I talked to was still on Windows Server 2003, blaming the cost
> of migration and state of the economy.

Why is it that when people stay on an older version of Windows it is
because of a shortcoing in Windows and yet we still have people here
who claim to be running not only older versions of VMS (as old as 5.5)
but also ancient processors like the VAX and are damned proud of it?

I have Windows Server systems here running 2003, 2008 and 2012.  They
run the version that does the job they were intended for.  Cost or
economy be damned, why would I pay anything to "upgrade" a box when the
ROI is going to be zero because the box already does exactly what it is
supposed to be doing.


> 
> Is it perhaps the same thinking which has lead to the DataCenter (sic)
> Edition being ignored?

Ignored by whom?  I run "Datacenter" where I think it is the correct version.
I also run Enterprise.  I have to admit I have never seen a really good
reason for running Standard in a Server Environment.  But others must.

> 
>> VMS may or may not have a commercial future, but attempting to directly revive 
>> it as a volume desktop OS would look (to many people) like high risk low reward.
> 
> Indeed.

Attempting to "revive" it at all is wasted effort.  Its owner doesn't
want it to continue.  The cash cow has been miked dry and at this point
is likely to become just another liability.  They don't make an AED
powerful enough to revive it.

> 
>> On the other hand if one were to rebadge VMS as a server for virtual desktop
>> infrastructure, which might be trendy again one day... Then again, for those 
>> not permanently welded to Windows, what's needed for VDI that Linux/BSD doesn't 
>> already have covered?
> 
> There are several elephants in the room which many people are
> ignoring.  One of them is certainly security,

Security has not been ignored.  Except maybe iby the people here who
choose to ignore the fact that VMS isn't the only secure OS.  I spent
the last 5 years of my military career securing boxes other than VMS.
How to do it is well documented and available to the public.  Unix,
Windows, Network, Wireless, even PDA's/SmartPhones.  The only one now
missing from themix is VMS which was dropped years ago as not worth
the time. (No, not because it was secure enough out of the box!!)
I know, I actually tried to get them to update the Security Readiness
Review Checklist.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
11/30/2013 3:50:20 PM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) wrote:

> hum ! all that let me remember a story :
> 
> Max and John speak about their next hollidays in Africa.
> Max : �you know there are a lot of lions in Africa�
> John : �if you know how to do with a lion, no problem�
> Max : �how do YOU do, you don�t know anything about it�
> John : �first thing, have with you a gun�
> Max : �and if You meet the lion and have forgot the gun�
> John : �I �ll never forgot the gun�
> Max : �and if you have no munitions ?�
> John : �I will always have munitions�
> Max : �and if you gun is blocked ?�
> John : �ok, I keep cool, I don�t move, and the lion will go away�
> Max : �and if runs back you�
> John : �I will climb a tree�
> Max : �and if there is not any tree ?�
> John : �hum, Max, you are for me or for the lion ?�


:-)  :-)

That made my day.

Can't wait to see how JF spins this one ....
0
David
11/30/2013 8:50:31 PM
On 13-11-30 10:50, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> I have Windows Server systems here running 2003, 2008 and 2012.  They
> run the version that does the job they were intended for.  Cost or
> economy be damned, why would I pay anything to "upgrade" a box when the
> ROI is going to be zero because the box already does exactly what it is
> supposed to be doing.

Are you 100% sure that your virus attracting platforms have not caught
anything and acting as a botnet to send billions and billions of spam
messages ?


This is where the "lack of upgrade" for Windows is a big problem because
older versions are so friendly to spammers who "cluster" their business
with easily infected nodes all around the world.

Microsoft may not have implenmented VMS clustering it got for free, but
spammers  most certaintly implememnted their own version of clustering
which supports far more nodes all around the world than VMS could ever hope.


(recently, I have noticed a lot of windows nodes from brazil sending
spam, so I would suggest Microsoft do some better advertising there to
FORCE people off its virus propagating platform.



0
JF
11/30/2013 10:44:32 PM
In article <529a6a51$0$10802$c3e8da3$1cbc7475@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> On 13-11-30 10:50, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> I have Windows Server systems here running 2003, 2008 and 2012.  They
>> run the version that does the job they were intended for.  Cost or
>> economy be damned, why would I pay anything to "upgrade" a box when the
>> ROI is going to be zero because the box already does exactly what it is
>> supposed to be doing.
> 
> Are you 100% sure that your virus attracting platforms have not caught
> anything and acting as a botnet to send billions and billions of spam
> messages ?

Yes.  100% sure.  Don't confuse Production Servers with Granny's Windows
ME box.

> 
> 
> This is where the "lack of upgrade" for Windows is a big problem because
> older versions are so friendly to spammers who "cluster" their business
> with easily infected nodes all around the world.

Upgrading from 2003 to 2008 or 1012 has nothing to do with this.  All of
them can be effectively hardened.  And, just to throw another monkey-
wrench into your ideas, some of my servers do not even have IP addresses
on the Windows OS.  They run Hyper-V and host Unix Servers which are the
only boxes that actually have active IP networks.

> 
> Microsoft may not have implenmented VMS clustering it got for free, but
> spammers  most certaintly implememnted their own version of clustering
> which supports far more nodes all around the world than VMS could ever hope.

I have never seen any report of a Zombied Windows Server.  There are more
than enough Granny Boxes out there to make attacking servers a waste of
time and effort.

> 
> 
> (recently, I have noticed a lot of windows nodes from brazil sending
> spam, so I would suggest Microsoft do some better advertising there to
> FORCE people off its virus propagating platform.

Don;t blame MIcrosoft.  Brazilian ISPs openly support SPAMMERS.  The
quickest way to get lots of Portugese language SPAM is to join any
mailing list hosted out of Brazil.  I know this first hand.  Luckily
because it is in a foreign language it is really easy to filter.

Of course, you have to wonder how truly stupid they are wasting time
sending SPAM to Americans in any language other than English.  I am
definitely the anomaly when it comes to understanding other languages.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
12/1/2013 1:21:28 AM
On 13-11-30 20:21, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Yes.  100% sure.  Don't confuse Production Servers with Granny's Windows
> ME box.

A lot of people, desktop and servers are still on XP. This is a huge
problem because the original XP was wide open to attract viruses/botnets
etc. And there are still millions of those boxes around.


> Don;t blame MIcrosoft.  Brazilian ISPs openly support SPAMMERS.  The
> quickest way to get lots of Portugese language SPAM is to join any
> mailing list hosted out of Brazil.  I know this first hand.  Luckily
> because it is in a foreign language it is really easy to filter.

Not sure where the spammers are located. But the invected Windows boxes
are often in Brazil, acting as part of the cluster (botnet) which sends
email controlled by the outfit making money from this endeavour.

> Of course, you have to wonder how truly stupid they are wasting time
> sending SPAM to Americans in any language other than English.


They are getting fairly smart. I get spam from different countries in
the world (as per the Received from: header) targetted to me as a
canadian living in Qu�bec. Often in french, and for canadian banks.
Having a .ca email address does help them target the spam to me.


0
JF
12/2/2013 8:53:14 AM
In article <529c4a7b$0$7157$c3e8da3$76a7c58f@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> On 13-11-30 20:21, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> Yes.  100% sure.  Don't confuse Production Servers with Granny's Windows
>> ME box.
> 
> A lot of people, desktop and servers are still on XP. This is a huge
> problem because the original XP was wide open to attract viruses/botnets
> etc. And there are still millions of those boxes around.

But we were talking Servers. Ordinary people aren't running 2003, 2008
and 2012 in their homes. (Well, most aren't, I do. :-)  And, as I have
often stated here, XP can be secured and the info to do it is both free
and publicly available thanks to the US taxpayers.

> 
> 
>> Don;t blame MIcrosoft.  Brazilian ISPs openly support SPAMMERS.  The
>> quickest way to get lots of Portugese language SPAM is to join any
>> mailing list hosted out of Brazil.  I know this first hand.  Luckily
>> because it is in a foreign language it is really easy to filter.
> 
> Not sure where the spammers are located. But the invected Windows boxes
> are often in Brazil, acting as part of the cluster (botnet) which sends
> email controlled by the outfit making money from this endeavour.

Actually, most of the "infected" or "zombied" boxes are located in places
like the US and Canada.  No need to wast time trying to infect PC's when
the ISP's openly support SPAMMING, as they do in Brazil.

> 
>> Of course, you have to wonder how truly stupid they are wasting time
>> sending SPAM to Americans in any language other than English.
> 
> 
> They are getting fairly smart. I get spam from different countries in
> the world (as per the Received from: header) targetted to me as a
> canadian living in Qu�bec. Often in french, and for canadian banks.
> Having a .ca email address does help them target the spam to me.
 
I get SPAM in english, Russian (cyrillic charset), Hebrew (hebrew
charset), Arabic (Arabic charset), Portugese, Japanese, Chinesse,
Korean and I am sure other languages I just didn't take the time
to look at.  I have no reason to assume I am being uniquely targeted
in these various languages.  And my point is that 98% of Americans
couldn't identify the language much less read it.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
12/2/2013 1:27:34 PM
On 11/22/2013 9:01 PM, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>
>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>
>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>
>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france the
>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first think
>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>> VMS friends need friends.
>>
>
> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>

Power Point?????

When in doubt, spell it out!  Or if your audience is in doubt. . . .



0
Richard
12/6/2013 1:24:01 AM
On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>
>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>> the
>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>> think
>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>
>>

If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point" 
you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".

My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name 
be used.

>> What a childish behavior...

I'd call it "Lazy".
>>
>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>> the *first two* hits:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>
>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>
>> Grow up.
>>
>>
> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>
> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>
> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
> throught circles of hell.
>
> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>
>

0
Richard
12/6/2013 2:09:59 AM
Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:

> 
> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point" 
> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
> 
> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name 
> be used.

and that was when, before WW II or WW I?

0
Michael
12/6/2013 2:52:22 AM
In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>
>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>>> the
>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>> think
>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>
>>>
> 
> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point" 
> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
> 
> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name 
> be used.

omg!!  lol...

English ain't what it used to be.

> 
>>> What a childish behavior...
> 
> I'd call it "Lazy".

Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
"American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
and just type ASCII.

>>>
>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>
>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>
>>> Grow up.
>>>
>>>
>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>
>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>
>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>> throught circles of hell.
>>
>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>
>>
> 

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
12/6/2013 11:59:01 AM
Michael Kraemer wrote:

> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>
>> 
>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point" 
>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>> 
>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name 
>> be used.
>
> and that was when, before WW II or WW I?

The Crimean War then:

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/victorians/crimea_01.shtml>

-- 
Paul Sture

0
Paul
12/6/2013 3:19:49 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>>
>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point" 
>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>
>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name 
>> be used.
> 
> omg!!  lol...
> 
> English ain't what it used to be.
> 
>>>> What a childish behavior...
>> I'd call it "Lazy".
> 
> Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
> "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
> and just type ASCII.
> 
>>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>>
>>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>>
>>>> Grow up.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>>
>>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>>
>>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
>>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>>> throught circles of hell.
>>>
>>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
>>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>>
>>>
> 
> bill
> 

I call bullshit!

Vehicle Management System

Nothing sucks like a VAX

CYA, now, is it "Cover Your Ass", or is it "See Ya"

The list could go on and on, but I think I got the point across.

Just because you know some people who will recognize an abreviation in 
the context you intended, doesn't mean the whole world will do so.
0
David
12/7/2013 5:07:19 AM
David Froble wrote 2013-12-07 06:07:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>     "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>>>
>>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point"
>>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>>
>>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name
>>> be used.
>>
>> omg!!  lol...
>>
>> English ain't what it used to be.
>>
>>>>> What a childish behavior...
>>> I'd call it "Lazy".
>>
>> Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
>> "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
>> and just type ASCII.
>>
>>>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>>>
>>>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>>>
>>>>> Grow up.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>>>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>>>
>>>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>>>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
>>>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>>>> throught circles of hell.
>>>>
>>>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
>>>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> bill
>>
>
> I call bullshit!
>
> Vehicle Management System
>
> Nothing sucks like a VAX
>
> CYA, now, is it "Cover Your Ass", or is it "See Ya"
>
> The list could go on and on, but I think I got the point across.
>
> Just because you know some people who will recognize an abreviation in the
> context you intended, doesn't mean the whole world will do so.

When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!

I do *not* think that Mr Gilbert actualy did/do not know what
"ppt" stands for. It was just a failed atempt to try to point
fingers against something not viewable directly on VMS, just
as if that whould have made any difference...

 > ...doesn't mean the whole world will do so.

And did G�rard wrote to "the whole world"? No, he wrote to the
usualy highly professional IT group of comp.os.vms.

In some other context, a full writeout of "PowerPoint" might
have been in place. In yet some other context even only calling
it "a presentation" could have been right. But not on c.o.v.

Jan-Erik.

0
Jan
12/7/2013 10:26:47 AM
On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>
> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>

Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
used in without having to spell it out.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
Simon
12/7/2013 11:27:48 AM
In article <l7ut58$nq4$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>David Froble wrote 2013-12-07 06:07:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>     "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>>>>
>>>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point"
>>>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>>>
>>>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name
>>>> be used.
>>>
>>> omg!!  lol...
>>>
>>> English ain't what it used to be.
>>>
>>>>>> What a childish behavior...
>>>> I'd call it "Lazy".
>>>
>>> Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
>>> "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
>>> and just type ASCII.
>>>
>>>>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>>>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>>>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>>>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grow up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>>>>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>>>>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
>>>>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>>>>> throught circles of hell.
>>>>>
>>>>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
>>>>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>
>> I call bullshit!
>>
>> Vehicle Management System
>>
>> Nothing sucks like a VAX
>>
>> CYA, now, is it "Cover Your Ass", or is it "See Ya"
>>
>> The list could go on and on, but I think I got the point across.
>>
>> Just because you know some people who will recognize an abreviation in the
>> context you intended, doesn't mean the whole world will do so.
>
>When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!

I didn't until I Googled the three letters.  A "professional" today might do
that before griping about it here on comp.os.vms.  I'm not so convinced that
a "professional" could use M$ Gaming Console and profess to be professional.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/7/2013 12:03:04 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote 2013-12-07 13:03:
> In article <l7ut58$nq4$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> David Froble wrote 2013-12-07 06:07:
>>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>>> In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>>      "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>>> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>>>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in france
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few means,
>>>>>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power Point"
>>>>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>>>>
>>>>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full name
>>>>> be used.
>>>>
>>>> omg!!  lol...
>>>>
>>>> English ain't what it used to be.
>>>>
>>>>>>> What a childish behavior...
>>>>> I'd call it "Lazy".
>>>>
>>>> Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
>>>> "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
>>>> and just type ASCII.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>>>>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>>>>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>>>>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Grow up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>>>>>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>>>>>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante (oups,
>>>>>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>>>>>> throught circles of hell.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP Discover, 6th
>>>>>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>>
>>>
>>> I call bullshit!
>>>
>>> Vehicle Management System
>>>
>>> Nothing sucks like a VAX
>>>
>>> CYA, now, is it "Cover Your Ass", or is it "See Ya"
>>>
>>> The list could go on and on, but I think I got the point across.
>>>
>>> Just because you know some people who will recognize an abreviation in the
>>> context you intended, doesn't mean the whole world will do so.
>>
>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>
> I didn't until I Googled the three letters.  A "professional" today might do
> that before griping about it here on comp.os.vms.  I'm not so convinced that
> a "professional" could use M$ Gaming Console and profess to be professional.
>

Then you are way out of touch with reality.
Your loss, even if you fail to understand that.


0
Jan
12/7/2013 12:21:10 PM
In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>
>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>>
>
>Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
>each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
>used in without having to spell it out.

Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk 
Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
Management Services.  

PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
have assumed abbreviated as PP.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/7/2013 12:29:55 PM
VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>>On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>>>
>>
>>Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
>>each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
>>used in without having to spell it out.
>
> Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
> understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk 
> Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
> Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
> have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
> Management Services.  
>
> PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
> Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
> would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
> have assumed abbreviated as PP.

In VAXman speak:

Poor Presentation Technology?
Pathetic Presentation Technique?

FWIW one of the best presentations I attended in recent years was given
by an architect.  While he used PowerPoint for the couple of slides
he showed*, they were obviously graphics prepared by some other tool.

The bulk of his visual content was done by hand using good old fashioned
flip charts.

* PowerPoint because that's all the conference room laptop connected to
the projector was set up to accept.

-- 
Paul Sture

0
Paul
12/7/2013 12:47:16 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote 2013-12-07 13:29:
> In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>> On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>>>
>>
>> Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
>> each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
>> used in without having to spell it out.
>
> Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
> understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk
> Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
> Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
> have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
> Management Services.
>
> PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
> Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
> would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
> have assumed abbreviated as PP.
>

Does anyone of those mentioned have anything with presentation file
formats to do? No, in the context at hand, PPT was perfectly clear
to anyone not sticking to his childish view of anything none-VMS.
Grow up...
0
Jan
12/7/2013 1:24:12 PM
In article <l7v7ht$g5f$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote 2013-12-07 13:29:
>> In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>>> On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>>>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
>>> each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
>>> used in without having to spell it out.
>>
>> Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
>> understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk
>> Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
>> Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
>> have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
>> Management Services.
>>
>> PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
>> Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
>> would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
>> have assumed abbreviated as PP.
>>
>
>Does anyone of those mentioned have anything with presentation file
>formats to do? No, in the context at hand, PPT was perfectly clear
>to anyone not sticking to his childish view of anything none-VMS.
>Grow up...

Only if somebody was following along in the thread.  Richard, who I know is
a user of that M$ Gaming Console Virus Collection product and thus, should 
have known better than I being he's one who employs it, didn't know!  It's
not childish to dispute that that pseudo-TLA was outside of the context of
c.o.v. (that's comp.os.vms).

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/7/2013 2:08:33 PM
In article <kvhbna-jfb2.ln1@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture <nospam@sture.ch> writes:
>VAXman-@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
>>>On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
>>>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
>>>>
>>>
>>>Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
>>>each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
>>>used in without having to spell it out.
>>
>> Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
>> understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk 
>> Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
>> Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
>> have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
>> Management Services.  
>>
>> PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
>> Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
>> would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
>> have assumed abbreviated as PP.
>
>In VAXman speak:
>
>Poor Presentation Technology?

I like that... it's very fitting.



>Pathetic Presentation Technique?
-^^^^^^^^

I like that too.  Probably why it's promoted so by Hopelessly Pathetic. :)
--------------------------------------------------------------^^^^^^^^


>FWIW one of the best presentations I attended in recent years was given
>by an architect.  While he used PowerPoint for the couple of slides
>he showed*, they were obviously graphics prepared by some other tool.
>
>The bulk of his visual content was done by hand using good old fashioned
>flip charts.
>
>* PowerPoint because that's all the conference room laptop connected to
>the projector was set up to accept.

I've done mine using Keynote and my own MacBook Pro.  For the MBP, I have
adapters for VGA (used by many projectors) and, more recently, HDMI used
by the projectors employed, at least, at the last OpenVMS Bootcamp.  It's
was not difficult to swap cables from the WEENDOZE laptop to my MBP, but
there are those here used to the M$ Gaming Console that cannot think that
through without a cheese pop-up point-'n'-click to do it for them.  

When it comes right down to it, it's the presentation that matters; not the
format of the file used to present it.  There are many things that are far
better than M$'s offerings, especially in the audio/video realm where Apple
reigns supreme, and those who are too childish to see that are sticking to
their anything non-M$ PoV. :P

It's ironic how those who would have us jump off of VMS -- because of its
perceived age and perceived shortcomings in the "modern" IT world -- onto
Linux or some other OS are unwilling abandon the decrepit detritus of M$.

Keep your PPT if you like Crayola-8 paint-by-numbers bullet points;  I'll
keep presenting a full multi-media experience with a quality presentation
toolset on my MBP. 

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/7/2013 2:32:03 PM
On Saturday, 7 December 2013 14:08:33 UTC, VAXm...@SendSpamHere.ORG  wrote:
> In article <l7v7ht$g5f$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> 
> >VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote 2013-12-07 13:29:
> 
> >> In article <l7v0nk$3e8$1@dont-email.me>, Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> writes:
> 
> >>> On 2013-12-07, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote:
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
> 
> >>>> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
> 
> >>>>
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>> Agreed. As a example, I know at least three definitions for "RMS" and
> 
> >>> each would be clear in a discussion because of the context it would be
> 
> >>> used in without having to spell it out.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> Mention of RMS in the context of comp.os.vms stands a better chance of being
> 
> >> understood to be Record Management Services than as Root Mean Squared, Risk
> 
> >> Management Solutions, Richard Matthew Stallman, Railway Mail Service or the
> 
> >> Ramstein Air Base.  I'm sure there are those reading here that have used or
> 
> >> have seen RMS in these other contexts but they would most likely read Record
> 
> >> Management Services.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> PPT: Parts per Thousand|Trillion, Precipitate?  Primitive Pythagorean Triple,
> 
> >> Perl Power Tools, Personal Property Tax or Putnam Premier (Income) Trust.  I
> 
> >> would have thought of one of the aforementioned; not PowerPuke which I would
> 
> >> have assumed abbreviated as PP.
> 
> >>
> 
> >
> 
> >Does anyone of those mentioned have anything with presentation file
> 
> >formats to do? No, in the context at hand, PPT was perfectly clear
> 
> >to anyone not sticking to his childish view of anything none-VMS.
> 
> >Grow up...
> 
> 
> 
> Only if somebody was following along in the thread.  Richard, who I know is
> 
> a user of that M$ Gaming Console Virus Collection product and thus, should 
> 
> have known better than I being he's one who employs it, didn't know!  It's
> 
> not childish to dispute that that pseudo-TLA was outside of the context of
> 
> c.o.v. (that's comp.os.vms).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
> 
> 
> 
> Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

When even one of the UK's leading accident investigation lawyers (one of the 
good guys, not one of the ambulance chasers) knows what PowerPoint is, when his 
accident report into an aircraft incident that unnecessarily killed 14 people 
talks about
"a PowerPoint culture [...] that glosses over hard questions and 
detailed evidence, and sacrifices safety to incompetence, sloppiness, 
complacency and cynicism" [1],
for anyone allegedly knowledgeable in serious IT to claim to not know what PPT 
implies (in this context) is, at best, surprising.

Today is, by coincidence, the day that the UK's national air traffic control 
centre at Swanwick was unable to switch from night mode (lightly loaded) to day 
mode (lots of capacity needed, but today, not delivered), apparently because of a "telephone system failure". I wonder what that really means. But that failure 
is another discussion for another time.

Any chance we can put Powerpoint aside and get back to the future of reliable 
systems and software (where VMS has historically been a really rather useful 
option, and Powerpoint has been a massive and sometimes high risk distraction)?

Thanks.

[1] Charles Haddon-Cave QC, probably best known for his inquiry into the crash of Nimrod XV230, but also former Chairman of the RAeES Law Group, involved in 
proceedings following the Kegworth air crash, and also the Marchioness and 
Herald of Free Enterprise marine incidents (and various others). His 
organisational and cultural learnings from the Nimrod inquiry and others (with 
brief mention of Powerpoint) were presented in a one hour session at a recent conference marking the 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster:

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Speeches/ch-c-speech-piper25-190613.pdf

There is more on "Powerpoint culture" in the ~500 pages (plus references) 
of Haddon-Cave's original Nimrod inquiry report.
0
johnwallace4
12/7/2013 2:57:44 PM
On 13-12-07 08:24, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> Does anyone of those mentioned have anything with presentation file
> formats to do? No, in the context at hand, PPT was perfectly clear
> to anyone not sticking to his childish view of anything none-VMS.
> Grow up..

Tempest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Typhoon in a teapot.

Anyone who has been around here for more than 2 minutes knows to expect
someone (hello Mr VAXman !) to point out whenever someone assumes
everyone runs that Windows game and fully capable of displaying
proprietary file formats not related to VMS.

Such pointing out of proprietary file formats is an inherent part of
c.o.v. culture. It is those who make a big fuss whenever this is raised
that need to grow up and gain a sense of humour and perspective.


And with the proliferation of Apple laptops in younger professionals,
"ppt" is no longer really that common in many circles.
0
JF
12/7/2013 8:56:29 PM
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> David Froble wrote 2013-12-07 06:07:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <2e2dnZ5RgYRurDzPnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>     "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>>>> On 11/24/2013 3:57 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>> Le 23/11/2013 12:49, Jan-Erik Soderholm a �crit :
>>>>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote 2013-11-23 03:01:
>>>>>>> On 11/18/2013 3:42 AM, "G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer)" wrote:
>>>>>>>> Le 18/11/2013 08:09, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
>>>>>>>>> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have a look on our site (www.hp-interex.fr), download a .ppt (Vms
>>>>>>>>>> friends, season 1). Have a look on the two first slides.
>>>>>>>>> And what shall we do with a ppt on VMS?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In these ppt, there are arguments and analysis, notably an analysis
>>>>>>>> about how VMS community can be manipulated by HP.
>>>>>>>> But what is to be done are actions, for sure. We initiated in 
>>>>>>>> france
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> survey you can read on our site. As a milestone. Perhaps the first
>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>> is to know who we are as VMS users, how many, which needs...
>>>>>>>> In france, like in another countries, I think, we have very few 
>>>>>>>> means,
>>>>>>>> and an initiative like ours must be relayed to succeed.
>>>>>>>> VMS friends need friends.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I give up!  What is "ppt"?
>>>>>>>
>>>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power 
>>>> Point"
>>>> you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>>>
>>>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full 
>>>> name
>>>> be used.
>>>
>>> omg!!  lol...
>>>
>>> English ain't what it used to be.
>>>
>>>>>> What a childish behavior...
>>>> I'd call it "Lazy".
>>>
>>> Or just using common behaviour.  When was the last time you wrote out
>>> "American Standard Code for Information Interchange".  Or are you "lazy"
>>> and just type ASCII.
>>>
>>>>>> Entering "ppt" in Google gave these two pages as
>>>>>> the *first two* hits:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPT
>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PowerPoint
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But then, if one can post silly posts about simple
>>>>>> spelling errors, I guess one also feels free to spam
>>>>>> c.o.v with this kind of idiotic posts...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grow up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Don't worry about it Jan-Erik : perhaps Mr Richard B. Gilbert give up
>>>>> about VMS, and his message is just despair.
>>>>>
>>>>> And, like me, he doesn't unserstdand how just three letters P P T can
>>>>> transform a bunch of professionals in a sort of delirious court.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps VMS is already in hell, and all we can do is, like Dante 
>>>>> (oups,
>>>>> some european culture,I apologize) claming some poems as we go down
>>>>> throught circles of hell.
>>>>>
>>>>> More seriously, I repeat : who is going in Barcelona at HP 
>>>>> Discover, 6th
>>>>> december ? Can we meet there ? And do something ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>
>> I call bullshit!
>>
>> Vehicle Management System
>>
>> Nothing sucks like a VAX
>>
>> CYA, now, is it "Cover Your Ass", or is it "See Ya"
>>
>> The list could go on and on, but I think I got the point across.
>>
>> Just because you know some people who will recognize an abreviation in 
>> the
>> context you intended, doesn't mean the whole world will do so.
> 
> When the context at hand is "electronic presentations", *no* IT
> professional today would missunderstand what PPT stands for!
> 
> I do *not* think that Mr Gilbert actualy did/do not know what
> "ppt" stands for. It was just a failed atempt to try to point
> fingers against something not viewable directly on VMS, just
> as if that whould have made any difference...
> 
>  > ...doesn't mean the whole world will do so.
> 
> And did G�rard wrote to "the whole world"? No, he wrote to the
> usualy highly professional IT group of comp.os.vms.
> 
> In some other context, a full writeout of "PowerPoint" might
> have been in place. In yet some other context even only calling
> it "a presentation" could have been right. But not on c.o.v.
> 
> Jan-Erik.
> 

Me?  A "professional" ?????

Surely not ...

:-)

Actually, I did have to think about it a bit.  Make of that what you 
will.  Yes, I did figure it out, but it was disruptive of reading the post.
0
David
12/8/2013 3:47:37 AM
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> for anyone allegedly knowledgeable in serious IT to claim to not know what PPT 
> implies (in this context) is, at best, surprising.

That really is NOT the issue.

The art / science of writing is to impart information to the readers. 
When doing so, it is counter productive to do anything that might 
confuse the reader, or even to break the readers concentration on the 
subject.

So, when reading the post, when I came to PPT I had to stop and try to 
determine what that was.  Yeah, I got it, but, it interupted my reading 
of the post, and my concentration on the subject matter.

In my opinion the writer did not do his / her best to inform the reader. 
  This is poor writing technique.
0
David
12/8/2013 3:57:14 AM
Le 07/12/2013 15:57, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk a �crit :
> Any chance we can put Powerpoint aside and get back to the future of reliable
> systems and software (where VMS has historically been a really rather useful
> option, and Powerpoint has been a massive and sometimes high risk distraction)?
You got it John.

It seems to be easier to have her ass on her chair, talking like a bunch 
of snobs about some "poor writing, not so good english, disruptive use 
of acronyms...", than DOING something about reliable systems.

I didn't know comp.os.vms was a club of retired embittered old men.
Go on sleeping, apologies from the world of living.
0
ISO
12/8/2013 10:02:57 AM
David Froble wrote 2013-12-08 04:57:
> johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
>> for anyone allegedly knowledgeable in serious IT to claim to not know
>> what PPT implies (in this context) is, at best, surprising.
>
> That really is NOT the issue.
>
> The art / science of writing is to impart information to the readers. When
> doing so, it is counter productive to do anything that might confuse the
> reader, or even to break the readers concentration on the subject.
>
> So, when reading the post, when I came to PPT I had to stop and try to
> determine what that was.  Yeah, I got it, but, it interupted my reading of
> the post, and my concentration on the subject matter.
>
> In my opinion the writer did not do his / her best to inform the reader.
>   This is poor writing technique.

Maybe so.

But was you forced to write *another* post asking what it ment?

I do not belive that Mr Gilbert, as a (as far as I understand)
known presenter himself, whould *NOT* know what a PPT file is.
*That* was my point. It was a post that only further puts VMS
(and the people working with it) away it that dusty corner with
old stuff ready to ship to the museum/scrapyard. Together with
those that still can not spell Windows correctly. Why do I care...




0
Jan
12/8/2013 11:25:45 AM
On 2013-12-08, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>
> I didn't know comp.os.vms was a club of retired embittered old men.

I am not retired and I am not old.

I also have enough experience with other environments, both as part of
my job and as a result of my personal interests, to be able to inject a
dose of reality when people talk about turning VMS into something
which can recapture some markets.

> Go on sleeping, apologies from the world of living.

I am both awake and alive and intend to continue moving forward by using
my experience to take good ideas from the past and keep them in mind
when implementing new projects.

However, I grew out of my trying to hold onto the past phase about 7 or 8
years ago.

Oh, and a core part of reliability is a engineering team which can be
trusted to build something world class (like clustering was at the time).
Please keep that in mind when considering the silently withdrawn patches
as well as the other issues which have cropped up in recent times.

The most viable way forward is to take the good ideas from VMS (such as
a DLM/clustering) and implement them in new products.

You are not going to be able to implement something in that way which
relies on the core attributes of VMS, such as it's real time performance,
but the real time market has _totally_ changed over the last couple of
decades and what used to require a dedicated VMS type system is now
done using far cheaper dedicated hardware and the VMS type systems now
take on the role of monitor instead.

And BTW, there have always been a vast range of real time tasks for which
VMS was not suitable, even in it's heyday, so please keep that in mind.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
Simon
12/8/2013 12:39:08 PM
In article <528aaac4-0b35-4175-8189-2e5c650cddaf@googlegroups.com>, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk writes:
>{...snip...}
>When even one of the UK's leading accident investigation lawyers (one of the 
>good guys, not one of the ambulance chasers) knows what PowerPoint is, when his 
>accident report into an aircraft incident that unnecessarily killed 14 people 
>talks about
>"a PowerPoint culture [...] that glosses over hard questions and 
>detailed evidence, and sacrifices safety to incompetence, sloppiness, 
>complacency and cynicism" [1],
>for anyone allegedly knowledgeable in serious IT to claim to not know what PPT 
>implies (in this context) is, at best, surprising.

The discussion is not about knowing what PowerPuke is/was but that PPT is an
abbreviation for it.  

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/8/2013 2:51:14 PM
In article <52a38b7e$0$47875$c3e8da3$5d8fb80f@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-12-07 08:24, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> Does anyone of those mentioned have anything with presentation file
>> formats to do? No, in the context at hand, PPT was perfectly clear
>> to anyone not sticking to his childish view of anything none-VMS.
>> Grow up..
>
>Tempest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Typhoon in a teapot.
>
>Anyone who has been around here for more than 2 minutes knows to expect
>someone (hello Mr VAXman !) to point out whenever someone assumes
>everyone runs that Windows game and fully capable of displaying
>proprietary file formats not related to VMS.
>
>Such pointing out of proprietary file formats is an inherent part of
>c.o.v. culture. It is those who make a big fuss whenever this is raised
>that need to grow up and gain a sense of humour and perspective.
>
>
>And with the proliferation of Apple laptops in younger professionals,
>"ppt" is no longer really that common in many circles.

.... with older professionals too!  ;)


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/8/2013 2:53:31 PM
Le 08/12/2013 13:39, Simon Clubley a �crit :
> On 2013-12-08, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>>
>> I didn't know comp.os.vms was a club of retired embittered old men.
>
> I am not retired and I am not old.
>
> I also have enough experience with other environments, both as part of
> my job and as a result of my personal interests, to be able to inject a
> dose of reality when people talk about turning VMS into something
> which can recapture some markets.
>
>> Go on sleeping, apologies from the world of living.
>
> I am both awake and alive and intend to continue moving forward by using
> my experience to take good ideas from the past and keep them in mind
> when implementing new projects.
>
> However, I grew out of my trying to hold onto the past phase about 7 or 8
> years ago.
>
> Oh, and a core part of reliability is a engineering team which can be
> trusted to build something world class (like clustering was at the time).
> Please keep that in mind when considering the silently withdrawn patches
> as well as the other issues which have cropped up in recent times.
>
> The most viable way forward is to take the good ideas from VMS (such as
> a DLM/clustering) and implement them in new products.
>
> You are not going to be able to implement something in that way which
> relies on the core attributes of VMS, such as it's real time performance,
> but the real time market has _totally_ changed over the last couple of
> decades and what used to require a dedicated VMS type system is now
> done using far cheaper dedicated hardware and the VMS type systems now
> take on the role of monitor instead.
>
> And BTW, there have always been a vast range of real time tasks for which
> VMS was not suitable, even in it's heyday, so please keep that in mind.
>
> Simon.
>
What about existing systems in industry and other places which actually 
use VMS ?

Do you think I'm not aware of that the real time has changed ? Or that 
VMS has never been able of addressing all the problems ? Do you think I 
don't know about lesser and lesser competences at HP ?

I only try to do my job. There are lot of existing VMS system doing 
importants things. For them a port represents real risks. Keep it in 
mind, Simon.
0
ISO
12/8/2013 4:03:44 PM
On 2013-12-08, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
> What about existing systems in industry and other places which actually 
> use VMS ?
>

Then over the next few years, they have some decisions to make.

> Do you think I'm not aware of that the real time has changed ? Or that 
> VMS has never been able of addressing all the problems ? Do you think I 
> don't know about lesser and lesser competences at HP ?
>

Given some comments in c.o.v recently, I think those are reasonable
things for me to have pointed out.

> I only try to do my job. There are lot of existing VMS system doing 
> importants things. For them a port represents real risks. Keep it in 
> mind, Simon.

Yes, and if you move them to some new modernised newVMS, they will also
see similar risks. It's the same reason why some sites didn't want to
disrupt their operations by moving some of their VAX systems to Alpha.

However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions,
and most new potential VMS users will want a operating system with
comparable capabilities to current operating systems as a minimum.

That's just the required baseline even before you come up with something
to make them consider your nice modern newVMS platform. If you don't
have a unique selling point to make potential new users interested, then
they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with proven solutions.

So let's bottom line this: what unique selling point will you offer on
a newVMS platform which will make existing users of other platforms
even look at newVMS ?

You need to be able to answer that question before you waste time talking
about all the other things.

Simon.

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
0
Simon
12/8/2013 5:33:43 PM
Le 08/12/2013 18:33, Simon Clubley a �crit :
> On 2013-12-08, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>> What about existing systems in industry and other places which actually
>> use VMS ?
>>
>
> Then over the next few years, they have some decisions to make.
>
>> Do you think I'm not aware of that the real time has changed ? Or that
>> VMS has never been able of addressing all the problems ? Do you think I
>> don't know about lesser and lesser competences at HP ?
>>
>
> Given some comments in c.o.v recently, I think those are reasonable
> things for me to have pointed out.
>
>> I only try to do my job. There are lot of existing VMS system doing
>> importants things. For them a port represents real risks. Keep it in
>> mind, Simon.
>
> Yes, and if you move them to some new modernised newVMS, they will also
> see similar risks. It's the same reason why some sites didn't want to
> disrupt their operations by moving some of their VAX systems to Alpha.
>
> However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
> in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions,
> and most new potential VMS users will want a operating system with
> comparable capabilities to current operating systems as a minimum.
>
> That's just the required baseline even before you come up with something
> to make them consider your nice modern newVMS platform. If you don't
> have a unique selling point to make potential new users interested, then
> they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with proven solutions.
>
> So let's bottom line this: what unique selling point will you offer on
> a newVMS platform which will make existing users of other platforms
> even look at newVMS ?
>
> You need to be able to answer that question before you waste time talking
> about all the other things.
>
> Simon.
>
All of that is of interest. But you think about mission critical world 
without thinking of its specifics.

A fabric with VMS conducting it, or a urban transport system guided by 
VMS, or some big reseller which uses VMS and its proper billions lines 
of code around it, has not same needs as our beautifull clouded word.

I don't say HP does care about that. HP works as a tie seller, or a 
washing soap seller, and does'nt care of anything, we all know that. I 
just constat that there is a (very little and specialised) market for 
long cycle life IT, and in this market VMS ("old" or "new") has its 
place. Perhaps HP could hear something about it, for example just to 
sell the last Itanium. Perhaps another actor could be interested.

However for the next 5 or 8 years some things are to be done, and it 
would be better if the fact of the existence of an OpenVMS ecosystem is 
prooved.

All you say is the global talk about global needs of a global IT market, 
and as says Moliere "c'est pour cela que votre fille est muette", (your 
daughter is mute).

What you don't see, or don't want to see, is there are specifics for 
mission critical market. And, yes, it is a difficult place, because no 
huge data, no rapid market. Just wait one or two years, one or two big 
troubles with cloud, and the (very little) market for mission critical 
could be anew of interest.

Bit in the mean time, as I predicted from the beginning (see my 
arguments on our site www.hpinterex.fr) , it is the "vms community" 
which is pleased to do the dirty job of "annoucing" the death.

And in the mean time, other actors (for example IBM), other communities 
(for example the REAL and POSITIVE linux community) would have done some 
thing and would get the job. (It is already done by IBM with its Z/os 
training and support of SOA).

The more you want to be defeated, the more you are. Or perhaps, you 
don't care : it is for a long time that you are'nt in the VMS community, 
and it is too sad for you others go on ?
0
ISO
12/8/2013 8:53:53 PM
On Sunday, 8 December 2013 17:33:43 UTC, Simon Clubley  wrote:
> On 2013-12-08, G=EF=BF=BDrard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sof=
er.fr> wrote:
>=20
> > What about existing systems in industry and other places which actually=
=20
>=20
> > use VMS ?
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Then over the next few years, they have some decisions to make.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Do you think I'm not aware of that the real time has changed ? Or that=
=20
>=20
> > VMS has never been able of addressing all the problems ? Do you think I=
=20
>=20
> > don't know about lesser and lesser competences at HP ?
>=20
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Given some comments in c.o.v recently, I think those are reasonable
>=20
> things for me to have pointed out.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > I only try to do my job. There are lot of existing VMS system doing=20
>=20
> > importants things. For them a port represents real risks. Keep it in=20
>=20
> > mind, Simon.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yes, and if you move them to some new modernised newVMS, they will also
>=20
> see similar risks. It's the same reason why some sites didn't want to
>=20
> disrupt their operations by moving some of their VAX systems to Alpha.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
>=20
> in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions,
>=20
> and most new potential VMS users will want a operating system with
>=20
> comparable capabilities to current operating systems as a minimum.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> That's just the required baseline even before you come up with something
>=20
> to make them consider your nice modern newVMS platform. If you don't
>=20
> have a unique selling point to make potential new users interested, then
>=20
> they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with proven solutions=
..
>=20
>=20
>=20
> So let's bottom line this: what unique selling point will you offer on
>=20
> a newVMS platform which will make existing users of other platforms
>=20
> even look at newVMS ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> You need to be able to answer that question before you waste time talking
>=20
> about all the other things.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Simon.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
>=20
> Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

Good stuff.

"However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions"

Spoken like someone who understands numbers and logic and stuff like that.

When did you last see any significant evidence that HP HQ understands numbe=
rs=20
and logic and stuff like that, corporately? Plenty of very public evidence=
=20
that they haven't recently (meaning several years) understood much at that=
=20
level.

"If you don't have a unique selling point to make potential new users=20
interested, then they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with=
=20
proven solutions."

Again correct. But, in 2013, is a "proven solution" the same as it might ha=
ve=20
been five or ten years ago?

E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed t=
he=20
same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are=
=20
client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world=
=20
(which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out=20
bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anywa=
y?

In some ways the same goes for Dell. Until recently they were a safe bet fo=
r=20
Wintel kit (they had to be, they have little else to sell), but Dell's=20
investors have lost so much confidence that Mr Dell has taken the company=
=20
private again. (Feels odd agreeing with "the markets", but...).

So, suppose perhaps, that things have happened in the last year or five tha=
t=20
made existing VMS customers think twice about their default plans for movin=
g=20
off VMS to something else. Suppose e.g. "Affinity" now looks even more like=
=20
BS than it historically has done.

Sensible people will be thinking carefully in the next few months about=20
whether it's a good idea to bet the business on where MS (and probably HP)=
=20
will be in (say) five years time. (Based on your postings, I assume you've=
=20
already been through that, others may not have done so yet).

Folk in that position probably won't be posting their thoughts here, but so=
me=20
of them *may* want to be able to share their thoughts with others in simila=
r=20
positions, or with others who have some knowledge of the factors involved -=
=20
whether or not VMS plays much of a part in the chosen way forward.=20

AMD64 is probably a safeish bet, though I'm wondering if prices of enterpri=
se=20
boxes will rise as ARM-based clients start to reduce the legacy-x86 economi=
es=20
of scale. IA64 prices ? Who knows. Software costs? Support costs? Does anyo=
ne ever talk about "TCO" these days?

Added to all that, HP HQ statements about the future are worth what, exactl=
y,=20
these days? "IA64 is the way of the future", "IA64 is safe", "Autonomy is=
=20
worth every penny", "we're getting out of PCs".=20

tl;dr ? =3D>
Predictions are hard, especially predicting the future.

Have a lot of fun.
0
johnwallace4
12/8/2013 9:49:47 PM
johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On Sunday, 8 December 2013 17:33:43 UTC, Simon Clubley  wrote:
>> On 2013-12-08, G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> What about existing systems in industry and other places which actually 
>>> use VMS ?
>>
>>
>> Then over the next few years, they have some decisions to make.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you think I'm not aware of that the real time has changed ? Or that 
>>> VMS has never been able of addressing all the problems ? Do you think I 
>>> don't know about lesser and lesser competences at HP ?
>>
>>
>> Given some comments in c.o.v recently, I think those are reasonable
>>
>> things for me to have pointed out.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I only try to do my job. There are lot of existing VMS system doing 
>>> importants things. For them a port represents real risks. Keep it in 
>>> mind, Simon.
>>
>>
>> Yes, and if you move them to some new modernised newVMS, they will also
>>
>> see similar risks. It's the same reason why some sites didn't want to
>>
>> disrupt their operations by moving some of their VAX systems to Alpha.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
>>
>> in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions,
>>
>> and most new potential VMS users will want a operating system with
>>
>> comparable capabilities to current operating systems as a minimum.
>>
>>
>>
>> That's just the required baseline even before you come up with something
>>
>> to make them consider your nice modern newVMS platform. If you don't
>>
>> have a unique selling point to make potential new users interested, then
>>
>> they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with proven solutions.
>>
>>
>>
>> So let's bottom line this: what unique selling point will you offer on
>>
>> a newVMS platform which will make existing users of other platforms
>>
>> even look at newVMS ?
>>
>>
>>
>> You need to be able to answer that question before you waste time talking
>>
>> about all the other things.
>>
>>
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
>>
>> Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world
> 
> Good stuff.
> 
> "However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
> in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions"
> 
> Spoken like someone who understands numbers and logic and stuff like that.
> 
> When did you last see any significant evidence that HP HQ understands numbers 
> and logic and stuff like that, corporately? Plenty of very public evidence 
> that they haven't recently (meaning several years) understood much at that 
> level.
> 
> "If you don't have a unique selling point to make potential new users 
> interested, then they are not going to try out newVMS and will stick with 
> proven solutions."
> 
> Again correct. But, in 2013, is a "proven solution" the same as it might have 
> been five or ten years ago?
> 
> E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed the 
> same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are 
> client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world 
> (which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out 
> bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anyway?
> 
> In some ways the same goes for Dell. Until recently they were a safe bet for 
> Wintel kit (they had to be, they have little else to sell), but Dell's 
> investors have lost so much confidence that Mr Dell has taken the company 
> private again. (Feels odd agreeing with "the markets", but...).
> 
> So, suppose perhaps, that things have happened in the last year or five that 
> made existing VMS customers think twice about their default plans for moving 
> off VMS to something else. Suppose e.g. "Affinity" now looks even more like 
> BS than it historically has done.
> 
> Sensible people will be thinking carefully in the next few months about 
> whether it's a good idea to bet the business on where MS (and probably HP) 
> will be in (say) five years time. (Based on your postings, I assume you've 
> already been through that, others may not have done so yet).
> 
> Folk in that position probably won't be posting their thoughts here, but some 
> of them *may* want to be able to share their thoughts with others in similar 
> positions, or with others who have some knowledge of the factors involved - 
> whether or not VMS plays much of a part in the chosen way forward. 
> 
> AMD64 is probably a safeish bet, though I'm wondering if prices of enterprise 
> boxes will rise as ARM-based clients start to reduce the legacy-x86 economies 
> of scale. IA64 prices ? Who knows. Software costs? Support costs? Does anyone ever talk about "TCO" these days?
> 
> Added to all that, HP HQ statements about the future are worth what, exactly, 
> these days? "IA64 is the way of the future", "IA64 is safe", "Autonomy is 
> worth every penny", "we're getting out of PCs". 
> 
> tl;dr ? =>
> Predictions are hard, especially predicting the future.
> 
> Have a lot of fun.

Some supplemental thoughts.

I've read many times here about the supposed reasons HP isn't marketing 
VMS.  Ok, OpenVMS if you wish.

To me it's pretty simple.  And there is some supporting data.  When HP 
took over Compaq, there was no interest in that VMS thingy, and the 
decision, if it was even a decision and not just a refusal, was to milk 
the cash cow, as long as it produced cash, but not to feed it beyond a 
starvation diet.  One supporting piece of data was Stallard's mention 
that they expected VMS users to move to HP-UX.

Ok, what about that expectation?  To make such a statement, Stallard (or 
whoever above him made that decision) has to have had no clue about VMS. 
  The two are so different that for many users, you don't move to a Unix 
type of system, you throw out the bathwater and baby and start over.

HP had no clue what to do with VMS

HP didn't want to have such clues

HP didn't want VMS

That's the real problem.  If VMS has any future, it won't be at HP. 
That's a really big "IF".
0
David
12/8/2013 10:39:20 PM
On 13-12-08 09:51, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> The discussion is not about knowing what PowerPuke is/was but that PPT is an
> abbreviation for it.  


Now Now ! Mr VAXman...

This is about someone assuming "ppt" will instantly be interpreted by
everyone as PowerPoint in the context of the discussion.

In a context where someone is talking about presentations and
conferences .ppt becomes fairly obvious (even if one wants to rebel
against MS products). In a context where you talk about bypassing
security on VMS and someone says "there's a ppt about that", then the
context of "ppt" is not very clear.

The fact that Mr VAXman's allergy to Redmond products results in
anaphylactic shock when he sees "ppt" proves that he knows what ppt is
associated with a Microsoft product :-) :-) :-)


0
JF
12/8/2013 10:43:48 PM
>> However, those sites don't provide enough income to continue with VMS
>> in it's current form else HP would not carrying it's current actions,
>> and most new potential VMS users will want a operating system with
>> comparable capabilities to current operating systems as a minimum.


An olympic athlete who stops training will quickly fall behind and no
longer win any races and fall to the wayside.

An operating system that is no longer marketed and no longer developped
to provide unique modern features will fall to the wayside.

The fact that VMS has lost the race isn't so much because of VMS, it is
because its successive owners failed to continue to develop , market and
price it to remain competitive and a market leader as it used to be.

The damage started decades ago. It would take a hell of a long time and
a huge effort to repair the damage done over the last 20 years.


At the end of the day, Gartner was right when it was first to claim VMS
was dead. The big sign was when Digital started to focus more on OSF-1
(later DEC Unix and Tru64).

This was all about greed. DEC had an installed VMS customer base and
didn't want to cannabalise those sales by making VMS competitive. By
going unix, DEC cannabalised not VMS sales, but VMS itself.


0
JF
12/8/2013 11:31:57 PM
In article <52a4f625$0$1212$c3e8da3$50776f34@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-12-08 09:51, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> The discussion is not about knowing what PowerPuke is/was but that PPT is an
>> abbreviation for it.  
>
>
>Now Now ! Mr VAXman...
>
>This is about someone assuming "ppt" will instantly be interpreted by
>everyone as PowerPoint in the context of the discussion.
>
>In a context where someone is talking about presentations and
>conferences .ppt becomes fairly obvious (even if one wants to rebel
>against MS products). In a context where you talk about bypassing
>security on VMS and someone says "there's a ppt about that", then the
>context of "ppt" is not very clear.
>
>The fact that Mr VAXman's allergy to Redmond products results in
>anaphylactic shock when he sees "ppt" proves that he knows what ppt is
>associated with a Microsoft product :-) :-) :-)

VMS: it's always been VMS, despite the marketing Open prefix, not Virtual
Memory System.  In speaking about the OS, even in non-VMS forums, it's VMS.

RMS: Very few here say Record Management Services.  In conversation, it's
RMS.

DCL: there are books, manuals and forums devoted to DCL.  While we know it
is Digital Command Language, I seldom hear somebody say, "you can write a
Digital Command Language procedure to accomplish this and or that."

AST: I issued a QIO with an AST to perform "X" when the IO was complete.
I seldom hear or read anybody referring to Asynchonous System Traps when
AST is significantly less syllables and vocal chord vibrations.

Myriad other examples exists; especially, in our beloved VMS space.

I've never hear anybody say, "we had to suffer yet another content vacuous
PPT presentation."  I'd wager most others haven't either.  Should there be
another content vacuous presentation to be suffered, it's called by name;
not PPT.  It's also not an acronym; nor it is an abbreviation.  It's just
the extension letters M$ assigned to PowerPuke's files.  If presentation 
terminology is so well entrenched in the vocabulary of an average comp.os.-
vms denizen, then I shouldn't have to explain to people here about my ODP.
Note, I used ODP, not KEY, for I329.  Both of these which I've never EVER
heard referred to by anything other than Impress and Keynote but so be it
if file extensions are now acceptible substitutions to product names.  I
need to get back to a PAL now (not Alpha code either) which I'm sure will
elicit immediate recognition by the PPT savvy comp.os.vmser since it's on
a WEENDOZE system.  Yeah, right.
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/8/2013 11:37:02 PM
On 13-12-08 18:37, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> VMS: it's always been VMS, despite the marketing Open prefix, not Virtual
> Memory System.  In speaking about the OS, even in non-VMS forums, it's VMS.

Bear in mind that for most aged 35 and younger, they've never heard of
VMS as an operating system and assume it is just one of those unknown
acronyms for some obscur product. (such as Vehicle Management System,
Voluntary Milking System)

In the UK, they would associate "VAX" with something that sucks dust. (I
did see a VAX vacuum cleaner in Australia in the 1990s BTW).

Again, the younger generation have never heard of VAX.


> RMS: Very few here say Record Management Services.  In conversation, it's
> RMS.

To be devil's advocate here, RMS can refer to the more generic software
layer for any file with record attributes, or it can also refer to
specific indexed or relative files that have more complex struyctures
and far mroe software involved in accessing/writing records.

So when discussing "RMS" in a VMS context, one still has to specify
whether you are refering to indexed files or just generic files.

> DCL: there are books, manuals and forums devoted to DCL.

When was the last time a book or manual was written about DCL ?

Again, in the context of c.o.v. DCL is pretty self explanatory. But talk
to IT or networking nerds who are younger and they have no clue. You
have to explain thyat DCL was the equivalent of bash for an older
operating system called VMS which was popular at the time they were
wearing diapers.

And while I am still more comfortable with DCL than with bash, the
general consensus is that bash is far more powerful than DCL. What I
like about DCL is that it is simple and self explanatory.

> AST: I issued a QIO with an AST to perform "X" when the IO was complete.

You did ? Congratulations !

When I was at University, there was this guy whom we joked no longer
spoke english, he spoke Unix (he became THE unix guru in Montreal).

And in your sentence above, you did not speak english, you spoke VMS,
with not only acronyms specific to VMS, but also concepts that are not
widely used elsewhere. (does Unix even have the equivalent of an AST ?)

While those are perfectly appropriate to comp.os.vms , they would not be
in the context of another operating system without an explanation of
what they do.

The question becomes whether "ppt" transcends the presentation community
and understood by anyone, or whether the "PowerPoint" word should be
used outside of a niche group who focus on presentations. (and such
group these days are likely not focused on Redmon products)


> I seldom hear or read anybody referring to Asynchonous System Traps when
> AST is significantly less syllables and vocal chord vibrations.

The problem is that nobody outside of comp.os.vms talks about ASTs or
their longer name. So the concept is obscure to almost all in the IN
industry these days.

> I've never hear anybody say, "we had to suffer yet another content vacuous
> PPT presentation." 

Fair point. However, one could argue that "ppt" is a bit like OpenVMS:
it is written differently than it is processed/pronounced:  You read
"ppt" as "Powerpoint", and you read "OpenVMS" as "VMS".



0
JF
12/9/2013 12:46:23 AM
In article <52a512e0$0$12723$c3e8da3$69010069@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 13-12-08 18:37, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> VMS: it's always been VMS, despite the marketing Open prefix, not Virtual
>> Memory System.  In speaking about the OS, even in non-VMS forums, it's VMS.
>
>Bear in mind that for most aged 35 and younger, they've never heard of
>VMS as an operating system and assume it is just one of those unknown
>acronyms for some obscur product. (such as Vehicle Management System,
>Voluntary Milking System)
>
>In the UK, they would associate "VAX" with something that sucks dust. (I
>did see a VAX vacuum cleaner in Australia in the 1990s BTW).
>
>Again, the younger generation have never heard of VAX.
>
>
>> RMS: Very few here say Record Management Services.  In conversation, it's
>> RMS.
>
>To be devil's advocate here, RMS can refer to the more generic software
>layer for any file with record attributes, or it can also refer to
>specific indexed or relative files that have more complex struyctures
>and far mroe software involved in accessing/writing records.
>
>So when discussing "RMS" in a VMS context, one still has to specify
>whether you are refering to indexed files or just generic files.
>
>> DCL: there are books, manuals and forums devoted to DCL.
>
>When was the last time a book or manual was written about DCL ?
>
>Again, in the context of c.o.v. DCL is pretty self explanatory. But talk
>to IT or networking nerds who are younger and they have no clue. You
>have to explain thyat DCL was the equivalent of bash for an older
>operating system called VMS which was popular at the time they were
>wearing diapers.
>
>And while I am still more comfortable with DCL than with bash, the
>general consensus is that bash is far more powerful than DCL. What I
>like about DCL is that it is simple and self explanatory.
>
>> AST: I issued a QIO with an AST to perform "X" when the IO was complete.
>
>You did ? Congratulations !
>
>When I was at University, there was this guy whom we joked no longer
>spoke english, he spoke Unix (he became THE unix guru in Montreal).
>
>And in your sentence above, you did not speak english, you spoke VMS,
>with not only acronyms specific to VMS, but also concepts that are not
>widely used elsewhere. (does Unix even have the equivalent of an AST ?)
>
>While those are perfectly appropriate to comp.os.vms , they would not be
>in the context of another operating system without an explanation of
>what they do.
>
>The question becomes whether "ppt" transcends the presentation community
>and understood by anyone, or whether the "PowerPoint" word should be
>used outside of a niche group who focus on presentations. (and such
>group these days are likely not focused on Redmon products)
>
>
>> I seldom hear or read anybody referring to Asynchonous System Traps when
>> AST is significantly less syllables and vocal chord vibrations.
>
>The problem is that nobody outside of comp.os.vms talks about ASTs or
>their longer name. So the concept is obscure to almost all in the IN
>industry these days.
>
>> I've never hear anybody say, "we had to suffer yet another content vacuous
>> PPT presentation." 
>
>Fair point. However, one could argue that "ppt" is a bit like OpenVMS:
>it is written differently than it is processed/pronounced:  You read
>"ppt" as "Powerpoint", and you read "OpenVMS" as "VMS".

And you just proved the power point.  Used here in comp.os.vms, those true
acronyms have meaning.  Apparently, for one c.o.ver, that reference to PPT
was lost.  Like I stated, when I first saw PPT used many moons ago, I had
no idea what it meant either.  I had attended many too many presentations
that had employed PowerPuke but I never *once* heard it called PPT.  Also,
I don't use WEENDOZE; Richard does.  I can not speak to why he didn't know
what PPT referred to but I can offer that it is NOT that universally known
as serveral others here have argued.

I'd asked my wife (pharmacological research chemist), who has presented her
research using PowerPuke (pool girl) for both internal research colleagues
and external pharmaceutical conferences, if anybody had ever asked her for
the "PPT" files.  Guess what her answer was.  I could believe that Richard 
didn't know to what PPT was referring, why can't anybody else?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
0
VAXman
12/9/2013 2:32:04 AM
Le 08/12/2013 22:49, johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk a �crit :
> Folk in that position probably won't be posting their thoughts here, but some
> of them*may*  want to be able to share their thoughts with others in similar
> positions, or with others who have some knowledge of the factors involved -
> whether or not VMS plays much of a part in the chosen way forward.
>
> AMD64 is probably a safeish bet, though I'm wondering if prices of enterprise
> boxes will rise as ARM-based clients start to reduce the legacy-x86 economies
> of scale. IA64 prices ? Who knows. Software costs? Support costs? Does anyone ever talk about "TCO" these days?
Very good points, very, very good points.

Examples, I got in our survey :
France, Steel Industry, turnover 9,4 billions �, 38 000 users : "we want 
to go on on VMS and itanium for 20 years"

USA, Business Intelligence, deals with 50% of fortune 100 : "HP has 
removed trhe concept of CRITICAL from their thinking" ; "OpenVMS takes 
1/5th the manpower to manage of the next best OS" ; "HP has achieved in 
the OS world what Obama just did with a web site "Much Ado about a Royal 
Mess" and a massive IT failure."

Germany, car manufacturing : "HP appears to be abandoning our key 
OpenVMS technology. HP is abandoning our business."

It is also real word. And as you said it is very difficult to say what 
could be a "proven solution" now for a number of customers, and they 
NEED some way of sharing thoughts, away from any rehashed analysis.

And YES, what about TCO ?

We are not sparrows in the wind, with two-months-futures, no ?
0
windows
12/9/2013 10:12:33 AM
G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:

> Examples, I got in our survey :
> France, Steel Industry, turnover 9,4 billions �, 38 000 users : "we want 
> to go on on VMS and itanium for 20 years"
> 
> USA, Business Intelligence, deals with 50% of fortune 100 : "HP has 
> removed trhe concept of CRITICAL from their thinking" ; "OpenVMS takes 
> 1/5th the manpower to manage of the next best OS" ; "HP has achieved in 
> the OS world what Obama just did with a web site "Much Ado about a Royal 
> Mess" and a massive IT failure."
> 
> Germany, car manufacturing : "HP appears to be abandoning our key 
> OpenVMS technology. HP is abandoning our business."

You can make as much wind as you want,
as long as those businesses spend less than
$100M/a (three years ago), or $30M to $50M
nowadays, VMS can't be *that* important for
them. And consequently not important for HP.

0
Michael
12/9/2013 12:11:17 PM
Le 09/12/2013 13:11, Michael Kraemer a �crit :
> G�rard Calliet (pia-sofer) schrieb:
>
>> Examples, I got in our survey :
>> France, Steel Industry, turnover 9,4 billions �, 38 000 users : "we
>> want to go on on VMS and itanium for 20 years"
>>
>> USA, Business Intelligence, deals with 50% of fortune 100 : "HP has
>> removed trhe concept of CRITICAL from their thinking" ; "OpenVMS takes
>> 1/5th the manpower to manage of the next best OS" ; "HP has achieved
>> in the OS world what Obama just did with a web site "Much Ado about a
>> Royal Mess" and a massive IT failure."
>>
>> Germany, car manufacturing : "HP appears to be abandoning our key
>> OpenVMS technology. HP is abandoning our business."
>
> You can make as much wind as you want,
> as long as those businesses spend less than
> $100M/a (three years ago), or $30M to $50M
> nowadays, VMS can't be *that* important for
> them. And consequently not important for HP.
>
The wind is blowing HERE : bla bla bla !!!

Did anyone said VMS is addressing the same market as Window, or must be 
selled with sugars in train stations ?

I think I'm dreaming : cov as the best place to disagree about anything 
that can be done for vms.


0
windows
12/9/2013 3:11:53 PM
Le 09/12/2013 03:32, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG a �crit :
> In article <52a512e0$0$12723$c3e8da3$69010069@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> On 13-12-08 18:37, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> VMS: it's always been VMS, despite the marketing Open prefix, not Virtual
>>> Memory System.  In speaking about the OS, even in non-VMS forums, it's VMS.
>>
>> Bear in mind that for most aged 35 and younger, they've never heard of
>> VMS as an operating system and assume it is just one of those unknown
>> acronyms for some obscur product. (such as Vehicle Management System,
>> Voluntary Milking System)
>>
>> In the UK, they would associate "VAX" with something that sucks dust. (I
>> did see a VAX vacuum cleaner in Australia in the 1990s BTW).
>>
>> Again, the younger generation have never heard of VAX.
>>
>>
>>> RMS: Very few here say Record Management Services.  In conversation, it's
>>> RMS.
>>
>> To be devil's advocate here, RMS can refer to the more generic software
>> layer for any file with record attributes, or it can also refer to
>> specific indexed or relative files that have more complex struyctures
>> and far mroe software involved in accessing/writing records.
>>
>> So when discussing "RMS" in a VMS context, one still has to specify
>> whether you are refering to indexed files or just generic files.
>>
>>> DCL: there are books, manuals and forums devoted to DCL.
>>
>> When was the last time a book or manual was written about DCL ?
>>
>> Again, in the context of c.o.v. DCL is pretty self explanatory. But talk
>> to IT or networking nerds who are younger and they have no clue. You
>> have to explain thyat DCL was the equivalent of bash for an older
>> operating system called VMS which was popular at the time they were
>> wearing diapers.
>>
>> And while I am still more comfortable with DCL than with bash, the
>> general consensus is that bash is far more powerful than DCL. What I
>> like about DCL is that it is simple and self explanatory.
>>
>>> AST: I issued a QIO with an AST to perform "X" when the IO was complete.
>>
>> You did ? Congratulations !
>>
>> When I was at University, there was this guy whom we joked no longer
>> spoke english, he spoke Unix (he became THE unix guru in Montreal).
>>
>> And in your sentence above, you did not speak english, you spoke VMS,
>> with not only acronyms specific to VMS, but also concepts that are not
>> widely used elsewhere. (does Unix even have the equivalent of an AST ?)
>>
>> While those are perfectly appropriate to comp.os.vms , they would not be
>> in the context of another operating system without an explanation of
>> what they do.
>>
>> The question becomes whether "ppt" transcends the presentation community
>> and understood by anyone, or whether the "PowerPoint" word should be
>> used outside of a niche group who focus on presentations. (and such
>> group these days are likely not focused on Redmon products)
>>
>>
>>> I seldom hear or read anybody referring to Asynchonous System Traps when
>>> AST is significantly less syllables and vocal chord vibrations.
>>
>> The problem is that nobody outside of comp.os.vms talks about ASTs or
>> their longer name. So the concept is obscure to almost all in the IN
>> industry these days.
>>
>>> I've never hear anybody say, "we had to suffer yet another content vacuous
>>> PPT presentation."
>>
>> Fair point. However, one could argue that "ppt" is a bit like OpenVMS:
>> it is written differently than it is processed/pronounced:  You read
>> "ppt" as "Powerpoint", and you read "OpenVMS" as "VMS".
>
> And you just proved the power point.  Used here in comp.os.vms, those true
> acronyms have meaning.  Apparently, for one c.o.ver, that reference to PPT
> was lost.  Like I stated, when I first saw PPT used many moons ago, I had
> no idea what it meant either.  I had attended many too many presentations
> that had employed PowerPuke but I never *once* heard it called PPT.  Also,
> I don't use WEENDOZE; Richard does.  I can not speak to why he didn't know
> what PPT referred to but I can offer that it is NOT that universally known
> as serveral others here have argued.
>
> I'd asked my wife (pharmacological research chemist), who has presented her
> research using PowerPuke (pool girl) for both internal research colleagues
> and external pharmaceutical conferences, if anybody had ever asked her for
> the "PPT" files.  Guess what her answer was.  I could believe that Richard
> didn't know to what PPT was referring, why can't anybody else?
>
In a time or about thousands of companies around the world think about 
loss of million dollards each, the "community" who can address the 
situation spends a month about usage of an acronym.

You deserve the creation of a new award : AAOIS (Absurdity Award for Old 
IT Scholars).

I think we have to do an archive of this thread, because in a decade or 
two, in computers history departments it would have a furious success of 
hilarity.
0
ISO
12/9/2013 3:26:00 PM
On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:11:53 AM UTC-5, G=E9rard Calliet (pia-sofer)=
 wrote:

> I think I'm dreaming : cov as the best place to disagree about anything=
=20
> that can be done for vms.

You can disagree all you want.  You can also announce that the sky is orang=
e.  Nobody is going to stop you.

But don't be surprised if others don't share your view.

The harsh reality is that HP doesn't care about VMS and nothing any of us d=
o is going to stop it.  They've decided it isn't worth the effort and it wi=
ll fade into obscurity.  It is their property and they've got the right to =
do that even if most of us would have preferred that it would have been kep=
t up to date and competitive.
0
Sprag
12/9/2013 3:53:59 PM
Le 09/12/2013 16:53, Sprag a �crit :
> You can also announce that the sky is oran

0
ISO
12/9/2013 4:38:40 PM
   You can also announce that the sky is orange.  Nobody is going to 
stop you.

Did I said the sky is orange. Did you really read what I wrote ?

I don't live in the sky. It can be red, yellow, white or black, I'm just 
walking on earth.

I didn't ever say that HP is a good guy thinking all the day about VMS, 
or VMS has a big market, or VMS community is not a defeated bunch of 
embitterred scholars, or that most of the customers cannot say anything 
public, because it will be hard for their business. Alltogether I think 
the sky is black.

And so what ? Sitting and crying ? Ah, yes : you don't do anything which 
can a be a total revange ? Indeed, what can be done could be few and not 
total ? I agree. So, there is nothing that can be done ? Don't do 
anything, I you want. I am not forcing anyone.

You say I talk about an orange sky. I see it black, and I think it is 
not a reason to go out crying, and not taking an umbrella.
0
ISO
12/9/2013 4:51:48 PM
On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:49:47 PM UTC-5, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

[...]

> 
> E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed the 
> 
> same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are 
> 
> client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world 
> 
> (which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out 
> 
> bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anyway?

Just as a side comment, it seems that every other OS from MS sucks. OK, sucks 
extra. Remember Windows ME? Then XP. Then Vista. Then Windows 7 (according to a 
co-worker it's like XP, but with sucky sharing). Then Windows 8. So to maintain 
the pattern, Win 95 would also suck donkey kong, while Win 98 would be "ok".

AEF

[...]
0
AEF
12/10/2013 8:46:12 PM
In article <f2f79535-2f78-4cab-9983-c8720a11079b@googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:49:47 PM UTC-5, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> 
>> E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed the 
>> 
>> same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are 
>> 
>> client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world 
>> 
>> (which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out 
>> 
>> bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anyway?
> 
> Just as a side comment, it seems that every other OS from MS sucks. OK, sucks 
> extra. Remember Windows ME? Then XP. Then Vista. Then Windows 7 (according to a 
> co-worker it's like XP, but with sucky sharing). Then Windows 8. So to maintain 
> the pattern, Win 95 would also suck donkey kong, while Win 98 would be "ok".
> 
> AEF
> 
> [...]

I keep seeing this "Vista sucked" stuff.  I don't get it.  I still have
two machines running Vista and see no reason to move them to anything
else.  They will probably remain Vista systems until the hardware they
run on dies.  Then I will have to decide wether or not to do another
Vista system as I will still have the licenses.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
12/10/2013 8:50:48 PM
On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:50:48 PM UTC-5, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <f2f79535-2f78-4cab-9983-c8720a11079b@googlegroups.com>,
> 
> 	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:49:47 PM UTC-5, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
[...]
> > Just as a side comment, it seems that every other OS from MS sucks. OK, sucks 
> 
> > extra. Remember Windows ME? Then XP. Then Vista. Then Windows 7 (according to a 
> 
> > co-worker it's like XP, but with sucky sharing). Then Windows 8. So to maintain 
> 
> > the pattern, Win 95 would also suck donkey kong, while Win 98 would be "ok".
> 
> > 
> 
> > AEF
> 
> > 
> 
> > [...]
> 
> 
> 
> I keep seeing this "Vista sucked" stuff.  I don't get it.  I still have
> 
> two machines running Vista and see no reason to move them to anything
> 
> else.  They will probably remain Vista systems until the hardware they
> 
> run on dies.  Then I will have to decide wether or not to do another
> 
> Vista system as I will still have the licenses.
> 
> 
> 
> bill
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
[...]

My Dad had Vista for a while. It was a royal PITA. Kept hanging. Near invisible fields.

Helpdesk personnel where I work say "Vista sucks". 

My brother-in-law had a lot of trouble patching it recently. The update procedure kept hanging. 

Well, you know: YMMV

AEF
0
AEF
12/10/2013 9:04:15 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <f2f79535-2f78-4cab-9983-c8720a11079b@googlegroups.com>,
> 	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:49:47 PM UTC-5, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed the 
>>>
>>> same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are 
>>>
>>> client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world 
>>>
>>> (which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out 
>>>
>>> bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anyway?
>> Just as a side comment, it seems that every other OS from MS sucks. OK, sucks 
>> extra. Remember Windows ME? Then XP. Then Vista. Then Windows 7 (according to a 
>> co-worker it's like XP, but with sucky sharing). Then Windows 8. So to maintain 
>> the pattern, Win 95 would also suck donkey kong, while Win 98 would be "ok".
>>
>> AEF
>>
>> [...]
> 
> I keep seeing this "Vista sucked" stuff.  I don't get it.  I still have
> two machines running Vista and see no reason to move them to anything
> else.  They will probably remain Vista systems until the hardware they
> run on dies.  Then I will have to decide wether or not to do another
> Vista system as I will still have the licenses.
> 
> bill
> 

Not sure what you're evaluating.  For me, Vista sucks big time.  What I 
look at is the ease, or lack, of doing any configuration stuff.  I truly 
grow weary when I'm asked a dozen times if I REALLY want to do 
something.  Just finding any networking settings is like looking for the 
proverbial needle in the haystack.

If you're thinking that I'm just some VMS dummy that cannot know 
anything else, I will state that I had much less problem with every MS 
OS prior to Vista.

I'm also less than thrilled with Windows 7, it only lasted a week before 
I reverted to XP on the test system.  I'll confirm the networking 
problems mentioned above.
0
David
12/10/2013 11:34:48 PM
In article <l888b0$hcj$1@dont-email.me>,
	David Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <f2f79535-2f78-4cab-9983-c8720a11079b@googlegroups.com>,
>> 	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 4:49:47 PM UTC-5, johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> E.g. Vista was a bit of a hiccup for MS, and Windows 8 seems to be headed the 
>>>>
>>>> same way. Windows 7 hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. OK those are 
>>>>
>>>> client/desktop products, but desktops make a lot of money for the MS world 
>>>>
>>>> (which is much broader than just MS). Just how proven is a five-year-out 
>>>>
>>>> bet-the-business gamble on MS? And who can answer questions like that anyway?
>>> Just as a side comment, it seems that every other OS from MS sucks. OK, sucks 
>>> extra. Remember Windows ME? Then XP. Then Vista. Then Windows 7 (according to a 
>>> co-worker it's like XP, but with sucky sharing). Then Windows 8. So to maintain 
>>> the pattern, Win 95 would also suck donkey kong, while Win 98 would be "ok".
>>>
>>> AEF
>>>
>>> [...]
>> 
>> I keep seeing this "Vista sucked" stuff.  I don't get it.  I still have
>> two machines running Vista and see no reason to move them to anything
>> else.  They will probably remain Vista systems until the hardware they
>> run on dies.  Then I will have to decide wether or not to do another
>> Vista system as I will still have the licenses.
>> 
>> bill
>> 
> 
> Not sure what you're evaluating.  

I don't "evaluate" computers any more than I evaluate my hammers.  I use
it.  It sat on my desk at work from the release of Vista until I got
mobilized in 2009.  I took it with me during my mobilization and when I
went home it went home with me.  I have used it there daily ever since.
I also had a laptop that ran Vista but I took the disk out 9and stored it
for use later) and loaded a version of Linux on it when I was doing my
Linux Desktop research.  Both worked flawlessly all the time I used them
and the one still does.

>                                  For me, Vista sucks big time.  What I 
> look at is the ease, or lack, of doing any configuration stuff.  I truly 
> grow weary when I'm asked a dozen times if I REALLY want to do 
> something.  

Never been asked a dozen times.  But I do laugh at their question.  If I
didn't really want to do it, I wouldn't have started the process.  :-)

>             Just finding any networking settings is like looking for the 
> proverbial needle in the haystack.

Odd.  On my systems it is in the same place as on XP.  Control Panel>Network.

> 
> If you're thinking that I'm just some VMS dummy that cannot know 
> anything else, I will state that I had much less problem with every MS 
> OS prior to Vista.

Other than the stupid sidebar 9which can be turned off) I saw little if any
difference in Vista from either 2000 or XP.

> 
> I'm also less than thrilled with Windows 7, it only lasted a week before 
> I reverted to XP on the test system.  I'll confirm the networking 
> problems mentioned above.

Windows 7 was not something I was looking forward to, so, I don't use it.
Of course, I do have the advantage of being able to get any of the OSes
and licenses from the Academic Program.  I even have MSDOS 6.22.  :-)
Great for running things like Ersatz-11 now that I have started getting
rid of my real hardware.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
12/11/2013 2:07:16 PM
On 12/5/2013 9:52 PM, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>
>>
>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power
>> Point" you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>
>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full
>> name be used.
>
> and that was when, before WW II or WW I?
>

Try the the Korean War and/or Vietnam.

But I doubt that would help.
0
Richard
4/19/2014 8:15:15 PM
In article <5352D953.1010605@comcast.net>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> On 12/5/2013 9:52 PM, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>> Richard B. Gilbert schrieb:
>>
>>>
>>> If you are crippled and unable to type the full text, e.g. "Power
>>> Point" you may have some excuse for for abbreviating "Power Point".
>>>
>>> My English Composition Instructor would have insisted that the full
>>> name be used.
>>
>> and that was when, before WW II or WW I?
>>
> 
> Try the the Korean War and/or Vietnam.
> 
> But I doubt that would help.

while I always think this arguing over (natural) language usage is
just plain silly, let me throw this out.  We all know the government
(and DOD in particular) are rife with jargon, acronyms and abbreviations
it should also be noted that the standard for writting states that when
any of this is used the proper format is to spell it out and define the
acronym/abbreviation in parenthesis immediatel after in the first
occurance and then you may use the shortened form.

Would that make people here happy?  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
bill
4/22/2014 12:16:42 PM
Reply: