HP eyes top VMS people for cuts
HP eyes top VMS people for cuts http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 Neil
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Similar ArticlesIn article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( I wonder if VMS is about to enter maintainence mode. :-( Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?
clubleySimon Clubley wrote: > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >> > > > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, you would not need to ask!!
rgilbert88In article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >> > > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( This is rhetorical, right? :-) bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
bill125Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Simon Clubley wrote: >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>> >> >> >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >> > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > you would not need to ask!! There has been a tendency for some in this forum to have little use for those who have cried 'Wolf!' in the past. How should "Johnny come lately's" to crying 'Wolf!' be perceived now? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
davef3Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Simon Clubley wrote: >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>> >> >> >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >> > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > you would not need to ask!! My prediction: HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract violations. The resulting court costs and/or settlement and/or judgments will be orders of magnitude larger than the pennies that they ostensibly saved by destroying the product. HP is trying to have its cake and eat it too: keep the lucrative support contracts without really being able to provide the support. That's a very stupid game to play when at least some of the people HP is trying to screw have legions of lawyers at their disposal. Regards, David Mathog
mathogRichard B. Gilbert wrote: > Simon Clubley wrote: > > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > > > >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > >> > > > > > > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > > > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > you would not need to ask!! Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did?
dphill46In article <bMidnaRKsJOBW6HYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes: > Simon Clubley wrote: >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> >>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >> >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > you would not need to ask!! Although I don't post to comp.os.vms as much as I used to, I do keep track of what HP are up to with regards to VMS, and _if_ this happens as described then it would be a new level of poor decision making on the part of HP. It could also be the thing that finally finishes off VMS - no matter how much one may like VMS, if you can't get proper support for it, then you are going to be forced towards inferior products that _are_ supported. Simon. -- Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP If Google's motto is "don't be evil", then how did we get Google Groups 2 ?
David Mathog wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Simon Clubley wrote: > >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil > >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > >> > >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > >>> > >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > >> > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > > you would not need to ask!! > > My prediction: > > HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which > point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support > contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract > violations. The resulting court costs and/or settlement and/or > judgments will be orders of magnitude larger than the pennies that they > ostensibly saved by destroying the product. HP is trying to have its > cake and eat it too: keep the lucrative support contracts without really > being able to provide the support. That's a very stupid game to play > when at least some of the people HP is trying to screw have legions of > lawyers at their disposal. I agree with the general thought, but more likely the large customers will complain and before it goes to court HP will settle with them. Settlement most likely including access to the last remaining experts, SLA's (with cash penalties), and reduced support cost. This or similar scenarios would have the same effect. Reduced income (and possible increased cost). I could also see them offering free hardware and license transfers to migrate them to a different platform even though support may be no better there. Either way this is very bad for VMS. The had writing may have been on the wall before, but if the rest of these lay offs happen (and maybe too many have already happened), then it does look like VMS is terminal (bad pun intended). It MAY not be too late for HP to fix this problem that they have created, but it seems to be getting close. If they continue down this path they are simply throwing away the large revenue stream that is VMS support. They may have grossly underestimated how long some of us will keep our HP VMS phone support contracts before we switch to 3rd party VMS support that uses the experts that previously supported us at HP. I am not advocating switching yet, but I am ready to switch if HP support lets me down over the next 8 months (when my contract comes up for renewal). Thomas Wirt Operations Manager Kittle's Home Furnishings > > Regards, > > David Mathog
twnewsPeter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOEGER wrote: > In article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > > Oouch. There is this question again. > > "Can DEC really be this stupid, this would be suicide" They were and they're gone. Management made out like bandits. > "Can Compaq really be this stupid, this would be suicide" They were and they're gone. Management made out like bandits. (Ok, the Compaq name lives on but it's now just another HP trademark.) > "Can HP really be this stupid, this would be the end of VMS" Yes. HP won't be gone because of this since VMS isn't that big a part of their business. Management made out... oh never mind. Regards, David Mathog
Doug Phillips wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>Simon Clubley wrote: >> >>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>> >>> >>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>>> >>> >>> >>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >>> >> >>Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, >>you would not need to ask!! > > > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? > One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for Ford Motor Corporation. Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more.
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > Doug Phillips wrote: > > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > > >>Simon Clubley wrote: > >> > >>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > >>> > >>> > >>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > >>> > >> > >>Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > >>you would not need to ask!! > > > > > > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into > > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? > > > > One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for > Ford Motor Corporation. > I knew that, and that's why I hung the reply on your post. > Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more. I thought I remembered that your friend wasn't doing that any longer. I'm probably misremembering, though. He used to pop in here every so often. I still miss the old CS VAX forum.
Doug Phillips wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Simon Clubley wrote: > > > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > > > > > >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > > >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > > >> > > > > > > > > > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > > > > > > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > > you would not need to ask!! > > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? Well, I haven't seen him *today*, but as of last week we still had an on-site person; sometimes more. WWWebb
william.w.webb2Simon Clubley wrote: > In article <bMidnaRKsJOBW6HYnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@comcast.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes: >> Simon Clubley wrote: >>> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>> >>>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >> Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, >> you would not need to ask!! > > Although I don't post to comp.os.vms as much as I used to, I do keep track > of what HP are up to with regards to VMS, and _if_ this happens as described > then it would be a new level of poor decision making on the part of HP. > > It could also be the thing that finally finishes off VMS - no matter how > much one may like VMS, if you can't get proper support for it, then you > are going to be forced towards inferior products that _are_ supported. > > Simon. > Or just toward cheaper products that have equally poor support. People won't pay a premium for non-premium products. Typical beancounter, they want the revenue, but not the costs. What they do with their spreadsheets just doesn't work in real life. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Doug Phillips wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>Doug Phillips wrote: >> >>>Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Simon Clubley wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>>>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >>>>> >>>> >>>>Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, >>>>you would not need to ask!! >>> >>> >>>Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into >>>*large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? >>> >> >>One of my friends, is, and has been for many years, the "resident" for >>Ford Motor Corporation. >> > > > I knew that, and that's why I hung the reply on your post. > > >>Since there's at least one, there are probably a few more. > > > I thought I remembered that your friend wasn't doing that any longer. > I'm probably misremembering, though. He used to pop in here every so > often. > > I still miss the old CS VAX forum. > That was VMS in it's heyday! Alas! I miss it too. And DEC Professional. And the folks at Professional Press. Stu does still pop in here every once in a while but, since most of the traffic here is no longer VMS Technical, I doubt that he finds it as interesting as it once was.
Doug Phillips wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > >>Simon Clubley wrote: >> >>>In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >>> >>>>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >>>>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 >>> >>>Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >> >>Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, >>you would not need to ask!! > > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people into > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? Well, I used to be one such a person (in the UK) for DEC, later Compaq, at SmithKline-Beecham. I am now half such a person (i.e. I do half, someone else does half) at a large account in the UK for the competition (http://www.tesl.com). Roy Omond Blue Bubble Ltd.
Roy.OmondIn article <ifCXTYMj7lEe@eisner.encompasserve.org>, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP (Simon Clubley) writes: >In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > >Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( Oouch. There is this question again. "Can DEC really be this stupid, this would be suicide" "Can Compaq really be this stupid, this would be suicide" "Can HP really be this stupid, this would be the end of VMS" >I wonder if VMS is about to enter maintainence mode. :-( I surely do hope that VMS will survive, but I'm still in doubt. -- Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER Network and OpenVMS system specialist E-mail peter@langstoeger.at A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
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David Mathog wrote: > HP finishes destroying all institutional knowledge of VMS, at which > point one to many largish entities with ultra-expensive support > contracts haul HP into court for an assortment of egregious contract > violations. Contract violations ? Would the contracts stipulate that HP is forced to ratian experienced people like Hoff ? Does the contract stipulate that the person answering the phone must havce X years experience minimum ? Consider that really key contracts probably already have specially assigned support people which bypass the normal support channels. And in terms of HP abandonning VMS, while it certaintly looks that way, and while HP is doing nothing to appeased VMS customers, it is entirely possible that HP UX and Tandem are also losing key people. Remember that JURD is killing 15,000 employees.
jfmezei.spamnot4On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:40:32 -0700, Doug Phillips <dphill46@netscape.net= > = wrote: > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: >> Simon Clubley wrote: >> > In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil = = >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: >> > >> >>HP eyes top VMS people for cuts >> >>http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=3D35272 >> >> >> > >> > >> > Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( >> > >> >> Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attentio= n, >> you would not need to ask!! > > Does anyone know if HP still puts full-time on-site support people int= o > *large" accounts like DEC/PAQ did? > Yes. -- = Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
tom294In article <453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: >Remember that >JURD is killing 15,000 employees. You are WAY out of line, fool.
rdeininger2"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote in message news:453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com... [...snip...] > > And in terms of HP abandonning VMS, while it certaintly looks that way, > and while HP is doing nothing to appeased VMS customers, it is entirely > possible that HP UX and Tandem are also losing key people. Remember that > JURD is killing 15,000 employees. > I suspect that Compaq and Tandem jobs are being cut while traditional HP jobs are not. Hey, it's the new HP way. Neil Rieck Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Ontario, Canada. http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/cool_openvms.html http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/links/openvms_demos.html
Neil Rieck wrote: > I suspect that Compaq and Tandem jobs are being cut while traditional HP > jobs are not. SUSPECT is the keyword here. We don't know for sure whether cuts have affected VMS more than other BCS products at HP. My suspicion is that Scott Stallard's pet projects are less touched. BTW, it goes Ann McQuaid -> Rich Marcello -> Scott Stallard -> Ann Livermore -> Mark Hurd. Since employees in charge of VMS had traditionally never really fought within the owning corporation to get VMS its due space, I suspect that they didn't fight much to be spared some cuts. For instance, it is possible that Stallard ordered 15% cuts in BCS. Then, HP-UX and Storage fight to justify their existance, and Stallard OKs that they need to only cut 5%. VMS is left at 15% because they didn't fight. So on average, it matches the Hurd directive for 10% cuts. Since HP management do not communicate with their customers/community, we are left to speculate, and that is VERY BAD.
Robert Deininger wrote: > In article <453D4344.5B5D3D71@teksavvy.com>, JF Mezei > <jfmezei.spamnot@teksavvy.com> wrote: > > >> Remember that >> JURD is killing 15,000 employees. > > You are WAY out of line, fool. Not really, the 'J' key is next to the 'H' key. It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dave Froble wrote: > It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the press about the employeed reductions. My comments don't change the VMS marketplace. Hurd's actions do change the VMS marketplace. You can choose to insult, discredit and threathen to hit me with your aluminium baseball bats all you want. But that doesn't change the odds of VMS surviving beyond the end of the line for that IA64 thing. Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86. In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement.
JF Mezei wrote: > Remember that JURD is killing 15,000 employees. JURD => Hurd? killing = firing? HP management may be ethically challenged, but it isn't _THAT_ ethically challenged. Regards, David Mathog
David Mathog wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > >> Remember that JURD is killing 15,000 employees. > > JURD => Hurd? > killing = firing? > > HP management may be ethically challenged, but it isn't > _THAT_ ethically challenged. > THAT WE KNOW OF!!!!
JF Mezei wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? > > Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the > press about the employeed reductions. I believe Mr Deininger is displeased with your use of the word 'kill'. I can see his point. I just took some of the sting out of the reply by focusing on the misspelling. :-) > My comments don't change the VMS marketplace. There is so much humor in that one sentence. It's so wide open, I don't know where to begin. Merely questioning the waste of bandwidth is so weak, compared to other possibilities. > Hurd's actions do change the VMS marketplace. > > > You can choose to insult, discredit and threathen to hit me with your > aluminium baseball bats all you want. But that doesn't change the odds > of VMS surviving beyond the end of the line for that IA64 thing. I haven't threatened you recently. It was never over anything about VMS. Solely over your usage of obsolete terms and names. > Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the > next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha > and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel > really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard > architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86. > > In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not > augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement. Ok, playing devil's advocate here. How do you know any of the above? How do you know that Steve has such intimate knowledge of VMS? Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few moments in the internet spotlight. You really don't know. But still you come up with these stories. -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Dave Froble wrote: > JF Mezei wrote: > > Dave Froble wrote: > >> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? > > > > Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the > > press about the employeed reductions. > > <snip> > > > Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the > > next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha > > and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel > > really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard > > architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86. > > > > In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not > > augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement. > > Ok, playing devil's advocate here. > > How do you know any of the above? How do you know that Steve has such > intimate knowledge of VMS? Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few > moments in the internet spotlight. You really don't know. But still > you come up with these stories. If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the organization of the VMS development team. :) I presume that you were joking, but I was not sure. I have spoken with Hoff many times at DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and usually have their names on them :) ). Also from the conversation I am pretty sure he worked with VMS development. I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on. The departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal. It is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS. Thomas Wirt Operations Manager Kittle's Home Furnishings > > -- > David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > DFE Ultralights, Inc. > 170 Grimplin Road > Vanderbilt, PA 15486
twnews@kittles.com wrote: > Dave Froble wrote: >> JF Mezei wrote: >>> Dave Froble wrote: >>>> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? >>> Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the >>> press about the employeed reductions. >> <snip> >> >>> Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the >>> next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha >>> and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel >>> really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard >>> architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86. >>> >>> In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not >>> augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement. Perhaps you missed the following? >> Ok, playing devil's advocate here. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> How do you know any of the above? How do you know that Steve has such >> intimate knowledge of VMS? Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few >> moments in the internet spotlight. You really don't know. But still >> you come up with these stories. > > If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals > manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the > organization of the VMS development team. :) I presume that you were > joking, but I was not sure. I have spoken with Hoff many times at > DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his > shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and > usually have their names on them :) ). Also from the conversation I am > pretty sure he worked with VMS development. > > I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly > fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on. The > departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal. It > is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS. I'm not sure why Steve left. I'm led to believe that he was part of the IA-64 port effort, and with that pretty much done, the participants may not be needed in the future. (Guess that would say something about porting to x86.) The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman. It was questioning JF's wild speculations. As for the future of VMS, if you have just developed concern, you're rather late. Killing Alpha! For what? The itanic, which is sinking rather quickly, and unlike Alpha, it's manufacture is outside the control of the current owner of VMS. Broken promises. No promotion of the product. Dismembering what was the best support organization in the world. Just how high must the water in the boat be before you consider the possibility of sinking? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
In article <FZudnWzdycak4qPYnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@libcom.com>, Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> writes: > twnews@kittles.com wrote: >> Dave Froble wrote: >>> JF Mezei wrote: >>>> Dave Froble wrote: >>>>> It's JF, what do you expect, reasonable? >>>> Is the 15,000 number inacurate ? This is what I recall reading in the >>>> press about the employeed reductions. >>> <snip> >>> >>>> Consider that Sir Hoff is perhaps one of the best people to help in the >>>> next port of VMS since he has been intimate with the ports of both Alpha >>>> and that IA64 thing, and has carnal knowledge of EFI, something Intel >>>> really wants the industry to adopt for the industry standard >>>> architecture that starts with 8 and ends with 86. >>>> >>>> In this light, the loss of Sir Hoff at this juncture in time does not >>>> augur well for the existance of VMS beyond the IA64's imminent retirement. > > Perhaps you missed the following? > >>> Ok, playing devil's advocate here. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >>> >>> How do you know any of the above? How do you know that Steve has such >>> intimate knowledge of VMS? Perhaps he's the janitor and enjoys a few >>> moments in the internet spotlight. You really don't know. But still >>> you come up with these stories. >> >> If Hoff is a janitor,then he is a janitor that has read the internals >> manual and is familiar with much of the VMS source code and the >> organization of the VMS development team. :) I presume that you were >> joking, but I was not sure. I have spoken with Hoff many times at >> DECUS Symposium (a rose by any other name ...) and I could tell by his >> shirt that he was not a janitor (the janitors get nicer shirts and >> usually have their names on them :) ). Also from the conversation I am >> pretty sure he worked with VMS development. >> >> I am not sure these comments were needed, but if this is not clearly >> fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on. The >> departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal. It >> is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS. > > I'm not sure why Steve left. I'm led to believe that he was part of the > IA-64 port effort, and with that pretty much done, the participants may > not be needed in the future. (Guess that would say something about > porting to x86.) > > The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman. It was questioning JF's > wild speculations. > > As for the future of VMS, if you have just developed concern, you're > rather late. > > Killing Alpha! For what? The itanic, which is sinking rather quickly, > and unlike Alpha, it's manufacture is outside the control of the current > owner of VMS. > > Broken promises. > > No promotion of the product. > > Dismembering what was the best support organization in the world. > > Just how high must the water in the boat be before you consider the > possibility of sinking? > Maybe people think its a submarine? bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Dave Froble wrote: > The above was not an attack on Steve Hoffman. It was questioning JF's > wild speculations. Sir Hoff is the one who provided us, the comp.os.vms community, the most detailed explanations , the most technical details and help us understand all that was involved in the port of VMS to IA64 with respect to the core stuff like EFI. Stating that Sir Hoff had carnal knowledge of EFI and was involved in the port to that IA64 isn't "wild speculation". If he succeeded in making *moi* understand how the EFI partition was "fitted" into the VMS file system, it means that he knew enough about EFI and the VMS internals to be able to put it into words that are understandable by us peons.
Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Maybe people think its a submarine? Don't know. I've never been in a submarine. But in all the movies I've watched with submarines, they seemed to get concerned when water started coming in. But hey, that's just the movies, right? -- David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com DFE Ultralights, Inc. 170 Grimplin Road Vanderbilt, PA 15486
Big Dave, "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> (and many others) wrote in message news:9OidnfXBG5HjeqHYnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@libcom.com... Something very much like: - "I want Bitty! BITTY!" Has VMS gone and died again without telling anyone? Unreliable piece o' shite that it is; why can't it just stay dead? I was convinced that this argument was wound up after Steve What's-his-name left! Ok. This time for sure? Fat lady singing? Die Valkyrie coming down to sweep our miserable souls away? Flat-lining now? Anyway, I made the mistake of propping up TheEnquirer's figures (like everyone else I'd imagine) and read the article. I suppose the good news for VMS is that there is enough of you thumb-sucking bed-wetters out there still fretting over VMS to make it worthwhile for these "people" to peddle this shit. So "Top VMS people" have to "justify their existence". Shock fucking horror! I have to admit it is unusual for Permanent employees to undergo such indignities but most contractors would have had to go through this rigmarole whenever a takover has gone through or cost-cutting is in place. Every 3 months you produce a glowing, stats-backed, report of how wonderful you are (end-user testimonials are always good) and after 6 months they give up reading them or the focus has moved somewhere else. This is how *most* VMS people have had to survive the last 15 years and the fact that it is now starting to hit the inner-sanctum (judging by the hellish screams for mercy) fills me with absolute joy! For those of you now looking into the abyss, I sadly have no advice to give you, but on a constructive note, let me say this "Fuck you; every last one of you!". Your decisions on DECforms, RTR, Bridgeworks, Alpha et al, have brought us to where we are today. The fact that you can now empathise fully with our pain, by no means compensates for your years of stupidity and self-indulgence! Yes indeed, the gravy-train is pulling into the station and Casey Jones is about to kick off yet more derelict scum that have been leaching the very life-blood out of VMS and siphoning it off to their personal pet projects for years if not decades. But where will it all end you say? Surely there must be a finite amount of fat to cut back? I tell you solemly, while there is but one RTR "engineer" or one RTR support person still employeed by HP then the purges will continue; and continue they must! The ability of Captain RTR and his syphilitic hoard of cutthroats (there's a blast from the past :-) have managed to manipulate and bullshit to middle-management to such an extent that I saw a Cluster wite-paper the other day that described that run-o-the-mill store-and-forward BMQ/MMQ/MQseries message passer as "Software Fault Tolerance". "SOFTWARE FAULT Fucking TOLERANCE"!!! How do those Bastards get away with that??? And there will be guilt by association! There will be a denouncing! Kerry Main, for starters, has bent over and sung the RTR praises on more than one occasion. Who else will stand up here for this filth and take what's coming to them? Dear HP, Give RTR to OM Gruppen and make them support it! VMS has received no RTR revenue from all all the lovely OM Click installations around the world due to our anti-trust actions in bundling it with the operating system and giving it away for free. OMX reap the benefits so let them pay the bloody support costs for these movie-star dinosaurs! Ask yourself "Who bought a new Marinello and Boat after the RTR bundling?" If nothing else, give them to EDS or CA and rid the body VMS from this canker! Cheers Richard Maher "Dave Froble" <davef@tsoft-inc.com> wrote in message news:9OidnfXBG5HjeqHYnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@libcom.com... > Richard B. Gilbert wrote: > > Simon Clubley wrote: > >> In article <453c97b3$0$14811$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>, "Neil > >> Rieck" <n.rieck@sympatico.ca> writes: > >> > >>> HP eyes top VMS people for cuts > >>> http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35272 > >>> > >> > >> > >> Can HP really be this stupid ? :-( > >> > > > > Where have you BEEN all these years? If you had been paying attention, > > you would not need to ask!! > > There has been a tendency for some in this forum to have little use for > those who have cried 'Wolf!' in the past. > > How should "Johnny come lately's" to crying 'Wolf!' be perceived now? > > -- > David Froble Tel: 724-529-0450 > Dave Froble Enterprises, Inc. E-Mail: davef@tsoft-inc.com > DFE Ultralights, Inc. > 170 Grimplin Road > Vanderbilt, PA 15486
maher_rjtwnews@kittles.com wrote: > fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on. The > departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal. It > is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS. I've been nervous before, but this and the offshoring of support makes me regret buying a couple "new" (to me) systems 2-3 months ago. I really hate to say this, but it has me thinking about changing the target platform for a software project I've been working on in my spare time. This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? Zane
healyzhhealyzh@aracnet.com wrote: .... > This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent > to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? For files that are updated in place, various forms of 'continuous data protection' (CDP) can provide similar (actually, far finer-grained) rollback capability (IBM now sells a personal version for Windows for a very reasonable price). But that may not work well for applications (e.g., some editors) that build a new temporary copy of a file and then swap it with the original via Rename (hmmm - I *guess* that would work OK with VMS versioning, as long as the Rename didn't use an explicit version number). Snapshot techniques may be far too coarse to be useful (unless someone has implemented something in the file system usable at fine grain). An academic effort a few years ago called the Elephant File System sounded promising, but I don't know if any product ever came of it. I'll be interested myself in seeing what other responses you may get. How does that outfit that specializes in migrating people from VMS to other platforms (ISTR that they have some kind of RMS emulator) handle this issue? - bill
billtoddhealyzh@aracnet.com wrote: > twnews@kittles.com wrote: > >>fact, then I am not sure what you base your last attack on. The >>departure of several highly visible VMS developers is a big deal. It >>is the first time that I have concern for long term future of VMS. > > > I've been nervous before, but this and the offshoring of support makes me > regret buying a couple "new" (to me) systems 2-3 months ago. I really hate > to say this, but it has me thinking about changing the target platform for a > software project I've been working on in my spare time. > > This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent > to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? > > Zane > SCCS or RCS will serve for source files and, perhaps, others. They are not the general solution that file versioning is.
healyzh@aracnet.com writes:
> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good
> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix?
There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400...
For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that
there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you
will always be in work.
--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
prepIn article <87slh8gwzl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, prep@prep.synonet.com writes: > healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > >> This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good >> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? > > There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400... > > For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that > there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you > will always be in work. Or, because he mentions this is for a specific "software project" he is working on, he could do it himself within the application. I have in the past and feel fairly certain the time will come when I will again. While versioning is nice, sometimes it is overkill and doing it on an applicayion by application basis seems to make more sense than doing even for those 90% of the times when it is unnecessary. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
In article <ehtj0d016lh@enews3.newsguy.com>, healyzh@aracnet.com writes: > > This question will seem strange, but does anyone know of a good equivalent > to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? > I know Sun claims to have produced one, and then dropped it because none of thier customers used it. I don't know if they had a proper set of tools (what does ls show?, how does * translate as a shell wildcard?). Most programmers I know use CVS/SCCS/RCS/... as a manual versioning tool. Everybody else just flings thier coffee mugs when eunichs looses an important file by the fickle fingers of human typos.
koehler2Bill Gunshannon <bill@cs.uofs.edu> wrote: > In article <87slh8gwzl.fsf@k9.prep.synonet.com>, > prep@prep.synonet.com writes: > >> equivalent to the versioning filesystem in VMS on Unix? > > > > There arn't any. Best is Unisucks or AS400... > > > > For a very bitter value of `best'. AS400 has the advantage that > > there are people all over who know it, and if YOU know it, you > > will always be in work. I've been interested in trying out an AS/400 for years, however, it doesn't seem very practical. They don't seem to be easy to run at home. > Or, because he mentions this is for a specific "software project" he > is working on, he could do it himself within the application. I have > in the past and feel fairly certain the time will come when I will > again. While versioning is nice, sometimes it is overkill and doing > it on an applicayion by application basis seems to make more sense > than doing even for those 90% of the times when it is unnecessary. I'm afraid not, neither of the projects I'm working on will benefit from a versioning filesystem. OTOH, the versioning filesystem seriously benefits my writing the software, and in systems management. Zane
Bill Todd <billtodd@metrocast.net> wrote:
> For files that are updated in place, various forms of 'continuous data
> protection' (CDP) can provide similar (actually, far finer-grained)
> rollback capability (IBM now sells a personal version for Windows for a
> very reasonable price). But that may not work well for applications
> (e.g., some editors) that build a new temporary copy of a file and then
> swap it with the original via Rename (hmmm - I *guess* that would work
> OK with VMS versioning, as long as the Rename didn't use an explicit
> version number).
> Snapshot techniques may be far too coarse to be useful (unless someone
> has implemented something in the file system usable at fine grain).
I know that the snapshot backups used on the NetApp filers that we have are
pretty handy, and I've considered looking into what it would take to setup
something such as this on Linux. However, snapshot backups are typically
only good for a few days, and I normally either need 2-3 edits ago, or 6
months ago. For this VMS versioning rocks! It helps that I don't PURGE
most files. I do have it setup to automatically purge all except the last 5
versions of some logs, though I've been known to regret even that.
> An academic effort a few years ago called the Elephant File System
> sounded promising, but I don't know if any product ever came of it.
Sounds familiar, I might have looked at it a few years ago.
> I'll be interested myself in seeing what other responses you may get.
> How does that outfit that specializes in migrating people from VMS to
> other platforms (ISTR that they have some kind of RMS emulator) handle
> this issue?
I've had it suggested that I take a look at FUSE on Linux by a coworker, I'd
already done some research on this and it looks like in the past there have
been a couple different projects to do this. "Wayback" and "CopyFS" are
FUSE options, and it looks like "fsfipi & vaves" might be as well. FUSE is
"Filesystem in Userspace".
Interesting... It appears that "CopyFS" is still alive and well, it looks
like the page was updated a few days ago saying v1.1 should be out by the
end of the year. "Wayback hasn't seen activity since June of 2004 from the
looks of things.
http://n0x.org/copyfs/
http://wayback.sourceforge.net/
Somehow I think more of RCS when looking into CopyFS. I don't see any
examples of information on Wayback, but I did find mention of VersionFS
which appears to predate it, and is apprently functionally the same. The
examples I found for VersionFS make it appear to be at least close to what
VMS users would want. As Wayback is newer code, runs on top of FUSE, and
supports both 2.4 and 2.6 kernels, it looks like it might be the best to
look at.
There is also ext3cow, which appears to be an interesting take on the issue,
but using a @{ctime stamp} instead of ;{version number} seems more than a
little unwieldly. Actaully it looks like it is a snapshot filesystem that
accesses the previous versions in that manner. http://www.ext3cow.com/
Zane