f



OT: HP P*sses off China

Well, I guess we should have expected it.  VMS is growing faster in
China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html?ana=yfcpc
0
roland (281)
3/15/2010 6:23:59 PM
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In article <a4815bed-d3f1-4011-92cd-bb139b98c881@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
	seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
> Well, I guess we should have expected it.  VMS is growing faster in
> China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.
> 
> http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html?ana=yfcpc

Sorry, I missed the part about VMS growing so fast in China.  Maybe it
got lost in translation.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999 (2588)
3/15/2010 6:29:19 PM
In article <a4815bed-d3f1-4011-92cd-bb139b98c881@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
> Well, I guess we should have expected it.  VMS is growing faster in
> China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.
> 
>
http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html?ana=yfcpc

This article mentions neither VMS nor HP-UX.
It's about the Chinese complaining about bad quality of HP's PCs.
Which is kind of strange since they're all china crap^Wware anyway.
0
M.Kraemer (2048)
3/15/2010 6:44:12 PM
Michael Kraemer wrote:

> This article mentions neither VMS nor HP-UX.
> It's about the Chinese complaining about bad quality of HP's PCs.
> Which is kind of strange since they're all china crap^Wware anyway.

That is because once HP got wind of the initial article, HP managed to
have the newspaper remove all mention of VMS and  change the story to a
PC related story :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
0
3/15/2010 8:03:33 PM
On Mar 15, 7:44=A0pm, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:
> In article <a4815bed-d3f1-4011-92cd-bb139b98c...@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups=
..com>,seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
> > Well, I guess we should have expected it. =A0VMS is growing faster in
> > China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.
>
> http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html...
>
> This article mentions neither VMS nor HP-UX.
> It's about the Chinese complaining about bad quality of HP's PCs.
> Which is kind of strange since they're all china crap^Wware anyway.

The complaint was about an Nvidia component in an HP laptop is all.
Apparently the error pissed off 170 Chinese customers which would have
been neglected in the Netherlands.
China seems to own a large chunk of the USA these days to have this
trifle hit the news, right?
0
hvlems (930)
3/15/2010 11:21:17 PM
On Mar 15, 6:21=A0pm, H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
> On Mar 15, 7:44=A0pm, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:
>
> > In article <a4815bed-d3f1-4011-92cd-bb139b98c...@z11g2000yqz.googlegrou=
ps.com>,seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
> > > Well, I guess we should have expected it. =A0VMS is growing faster in
> > > China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.
>
> >http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html...
>
> > This article mentions neither VMS nor HP-UX.
> > It's about the Chinese complaining about bad quality of HP's PCs.
> > Which is kind of strange since they're all china crap^Wware anyway.
>
> The complaint was about an Nvidia component in an HP laptop is all.
> Apparently the error pissed off 170 Chinese customers which would have
> been neglected in the Netherlands.
> China seems to own a large chunk of the USA these days to have this
> trifle hit the news, right?

They've actually begun liquidating the debt of ours they hold.

Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.  Actually, they
let too many come over, with or without a visa, work for hire without
being paid prevailing wage (multiple felonies committed there), then
return without paying any U.S. taxes (multiple felonies committed here
as well).

Japan started liquidating the debt of ours they hold as well.  Nobody
looking to buy any more U.S. debt because the Treasury has simply been
printing money without anything to back it up.

Ahhh.....the global recession that Gartner built....isn't it grand!
0
roland (281)
3/16/2010 7:46:31 PM
seasoned_geek wrote:

> They've actually begun liquidating the debt of ours they hold.

Not quite "liquidating".   China is a shrewd investor. The Yuan is now
the world currency, and the USD is tagging along.

With China having so much of its money in USD, they will want to move
those investments to other currencies (or to their own) before they
decouple the Yuan from the USD, at which point, any Chinese investment
in USD will lose value as the Yuan and USD spread apart.


> Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.

US trade deficit has been a problem for decades. It isn't just the
current president.  Many countries have record government deficits
because of the financial crisis which hit tax revenues hard and forced
governmnets to "stimulate" the economy (aka: borrow huges sums for
roadworks and other pork barrel projects to create jobs to minimise the
impact of the recession).

The real culprits are companies such as Wallmart who source their goods
from outside the USA.  Everything you buy that is made in China ends up
strenghtening China's control over the USA. (I used Wallmart because it
is the poster child of outsourcing to china, but there are plenty of
companies who do this, including most electronics firms).

Products manufactured outside the USA don't generate jobs in the USA.
That reduces tax revenues for the govt and reduces economic activity
inside the USA.  And every dollar you sopend in China ends up being
re-invested when China buys USA govt bonds and gives China power over
the USA (which is why US presidents have to tone down their human rights
criticisms for instance).

As long as a country imports from many different places, then there is
no one country that has any significant power over the country. But when
there is a serious trade imbalance between 2 countries, the importer
eventually sees its own sovereignty diminished because the exporter
starts to invest so much with all the cash it is getting.

In short, when you "shop at wallmart", you give money to the chinese so
that the chinese can tell the USA government what to do.

(And the USA isn't alone in having become dependant on China, but it
stands out because it is the most visible and largest economy).


> Japan started liquidating the debt of ours they hold as well.  Nobody
> looking to buy any more U.S. debt because the Treasury has simply been
> printing money without anything to back it up.

Not quite. Countries are realising that the uncoupling of the Yuan to
USD is inevitable and they would rather move their money out of the USD
denominated investments before the USD drops in a major way. The news
this week just signal that the uncioupling of the YUAN is closer than
previously though (probably a year or two).

The good news is that when the USD drops in a major way, it will
actually stimulate the USA economy in a big way because it will become
possible for USA manufacturers to build products at lower cost than
Chinese imports and you'll see manufacturing and exports from USA rise
significantly. But the imported french wines and cheeses will cost
dearly though so some luxuries will see significant reductions in
comsumption in the USA.
0
3/16/2010 8:48:13 PM
In article <8a15c6e0-38bc-438b-b09e-09e3c930517b@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>On Mar 15, 6:21=A0pm, H Vlems <hvl...@freenet.de> wrote:
>> On Mar 15, 7:44=A0pm, m.krae...@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) wrote:
>>
>> > In article <a4815bed-d3f1-4011-92cd-bb139b98c...@z11g2000yqz.googlegrou=
>ps.com>,seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>> > > Well, I guess we should have expected it. =A0VMS is growing faster in
>> > > China than HP-UX, so naturally HP would try to shut that market down.
>>
>> >http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2010/03/15/daily2.html...
>>
>> > This article mentions neither VMS nor HP-UX.
>> > It's about the Chinese complaining about bad quality of HP's PCs.
>> > Which is kind of strange since they're all china crap^Wware anyway.
>>
>> The complaint was about an Nvidia component in an HP laptop is all.
>> Apparently the error pissed off 170 Chinese customers which would have
>> been neglected in the Netherlands.
>> China seems to own a large chunk of the USA these days to have this
>> trifle hit the news, right?
>
>They've actually begun liquidating the debt of ours they hold.
>
>Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.  Actually, they
>let too many come over, with or without a visa, work for hire without
>being paid prevailing wage (multiple felonies committed there), then
>return without paying any U.S. taxes (multiple felonies committed here
>as well).
>
>Japan started liquidating the debt of ours they hold as well.  Nobody
>looking to buy any more U.S. debt because the Treasury has simply been
>printing money without anything to back it up.
>
>Ahhh.....the global recession that Gartner built....isn't it grand!

Grand? 10**3?   You missed the mark by, at least, 10 in the exponent!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/16/2010 9:39:46 PM
In article <4b9fee8f$0$1501$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>seasoned_geek wrote:
>
>> They've actually begun liquidating the debt of ours they hold.
>
>Not quite "liquidating".   China is a shrewd investor. The Yuan is now
>the world currency, and the USD is tagging along.
>
>With China having so much of its money in USD, they will want to move
>those investments to other currencies (or to their own) before they
>decouple the Yuan from the USD, at which point, any Chinese investment
>in USD will lose value as the Yuan and USD spread apart.
>
>
>> Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.
>
>US trade deficit has been a problem for decades. It isn't just the
>current president.  Many countries have record government deficits
>because of the financial crisis which hit tax revenues hard and forced
>governmnets to "stimulate" the economy (aka: borrow huges sums for
>roadworks and other pork barrel projects to create jobs to minimise the
>impact of the recession).

Well, the roads in my area SUCK... and I haven't see much bacon on my
breakast, lunch or dinner table.  Redistribution of wealth via govern-
ment jobs -- whether they're fixing roads and infrastructure, or going
to study the mating rituals of drunken wombats -- done not increase the
GDP.  Real production is real wealth.  We (US) have become a nation of
service oriented droids with mega layers of management.  None of this
is increasing GDP.


>The real culprits are companies such as Wallmart who source their goods
>from outside the USA.  Everything you buy that is made in China ends up
>strenghtening China's control over the USA. (I used Wallmart because it
>is the poster child of outsourcing to china, but there are plenty of
>companies who do this, including most electronics firms).

It's not just Walmart; albeit, I know you have a real soft spot in your
heart for Mr Walston's enterprises.  Trust me, I don't like them all that
much either.  I just ran to Lowes for a pump to remove the new "indoor"
swimming pool in the VAXcave.  It too was mfg. in China and, like most of
that, it's crap.  It won't pump for more than 5 minutes at a clip regard-
less of the claims on the packaging.  I did call the distributor and they
are sending me another.  That's all well and good but it doesn't help to
address the immediate need.  


>Products manufactured outside the USA don't generate jobs in the USA.
>That reduces tax revenues for the govt and reduces economic activity
>inside the USA.  And every dollar you sopend in China ends up being
>re-invested when China buys USA govt bonds and gives China power over
>the USA (which is why US presidents have to tone down their human rights
>criticisms for instance).
>
>As long as a country imports from many different places, then there is
>no one country that has any significant power over the country. But when
>there is a serious trade imbalance between 2 countries, the importer
>eventually sees its own sovereignty diminished because the exporter
>starts to invest so much with all the cash it is getting.

Can you come down and lobby in Wash. DC.  Obvioulsy the morons that are
seated there can't realize what you've just expose'd.


>In short, when you "shop at wallmart", you give money to the chinese so
>that the chinese can tell the USA government what to do.

Walmart, Lowes, Sears, BestBuys, Alsocrummie-and-Filtch, etc. etc.


>(And the USA isn't alone in having become dependant on China, but it
>stands out because it is the most visible and largest economy).

Our current administration is working very hard to insure that the latter
aspect of the economy is no longer the case.


>> Japan started liquidating the debt of ours they hold as well.  Nobody
>> looking to buy any more U.S. debt because the Treasury has simply been
>> printing money without anything to back it up.
>
>Not quite. Countries are realising that the uncoupling of the Yuan to
>USD is inevitable and they would rather move their money out of the USD
>denominated investments before the USD drops in a major way. The news
>this week just signal that the uncioupling of the YUAN is closer than
>previously though (probably a year or two).
>
>The good news is that when the USD drops in a major way, it will
>actually stimulate the USA economy in a big way because it will become
>possible for USA manufacturers to build products at lower cost than
>Chinese imports and you'll see manufacturing and exports from USA rise
>significantly. But the imported french wines and cheeses will cost
>dearly though so some luxuries will see significant reductions in
>comsumption in the USA.

I don't know.  The american worker is brainwashed and braindamaged into
believing that some jobs are just beneath them.  Besides, there will be
no impetus to even try when the dollar drops to make the Zimbabwe buck
look attractive and the government takes anything and everthing that's
not nailed down.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/16/2010 10:53:48 PM
In article <8a15c6e0-38bc-438b-b09e-09e3c930517b@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
> 
> Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.

   Short memory?  I seem to recall the previous administration running
   up the record debt.  So, OK, our children aren't done paying it off,
   that's thier fault?

0
koehler2 (8314)
3/17/2010 2:56:56 PM
On Mar 17, 9:56=A0am, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob
Koehler) wrote:
> In article <8a15c6e0-38bc-438b-b09e-09e3c9305...@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups=
..com>, seasoned_geek <rol...@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.
>
> =A0 =A0Short memory? =A0I seem to recall the previous administration runn=
ing
> =A0 =A0up the record debt. =A0So, OK, our children aren't done paying it =
off,
> =A0 =A0that's thier fault?

Actually it is.  They had the Fed go on TV on 60 Minutes and tell
people they were just "printing money" to keep the banks afloat.  That
is when China and Japan (and every other country which was listening)
decided our debt wasn't good anymore.  Now they are both liquidating
their positions (slowly, but liquidating still).

Yet the earmarks still keep getting added to bills and the bills keep
getting signed.
0
roland (281)
3/17/2010 4:07:34 PM
On Mar 16, 3:48=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> seasoned_geek wrote:
> > They've actually begun liquidating the debt of ours they hold.
>
> Not quite "liquidating". =A0 China is a shrewd investor. The Yuan is now
> the world currency, and the USD is tagging along.
>
> With China having so much of its money in USD, they will want to move
> those investments to other currencies (or to their own) before they
> decouple the Yuan from the USD, at which point, any Chinese investment
> in USD will lose value as the Yuan and USD spread apart.
>
> > Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.
>
> US trade deficit has been a problem for decades. It isn't just the
> current president. =A0Many countries have record government deficits
> because of the financial crisis which hit tax revenues hard and forced
> governmnets to "stimulate" the economy (aka: borrow huges sums for
> roadworks and other pork barrel projects to create jobs to minimise the
> impact of the recession).
>
> The real culprits are companies such as Wallmart who source their goods
> from outside the USA. =A0Everything you buy that is made in China ends up
> strenghtening China's control over the USA. (I used Wallmart because it
> is the poster child of outsourcing to china, but there are plenty of
> companies who do this, including most electronics firms).
>
> Products manufactured outside the USA don't generate jobs in the USA.
> That reduces tax revenues for the govt and reduces economic activity
> inside the USA. =A0And every dollar you sopend in China ends up being
> re-invested when China buys USA govt bonds and gives China power over
> the USA (which is why US presidents have to tone down their human rights
> criticisms for instance).
>
> As long as a country imports from many different places, then there is
> no one country that has any significant power over the country. But when
> there is a serious trade imbalance between 2 countries, the importer
> eventually sees its own sovereignty diminished because the exporter
> starts to invest so much with all the cash it is getting.
>
> In short, when you "shop at wallmart", you give money to the chinese so
> that the chinese can tell the USA government what to do.
>
> (And the USA isn't alone in having become dependant on China, but it
> stands out because it is the most visible and largest economy).
>
> > Japan started liquidating the debt of ours they hold as well. =A0Nobody
> > looking to buy any more U.S. debt because the Treasury has simply been
> > printing money without anything to back it up.
>
> Not quite. Countries are realising that the uncoupling of the Yuan to
> USD is inevitable and they would rather move their money out of the USD
> denominated investments before the USD drops in a major way. The news
> this week just signal that the uncioupling of the YUAN is closer than
> previously though (probably a year or two).
>
> The good news is that when the USD drops in a major way, it will
> actually stimulate the USA economy in a big way because it will become
> possible for USA manufacturers to build products at lower cost than
> Chinese imports and you'll see manufacturing and exports from USA rise
> significantly. But the imported french wines and cheeses will cost
> dearly though so some luxuries will see significant reductions in
> comsumption in the USA.

You can continue to quote "not quite" all you want.  I spent multiple
years working on the trading floor system for a major stock exchange.
China and Japan have begun liquidation of U.S. debt, but are currently
trying to bleed it back into the market without raising too much
suspicion.  They will not be buying future debt which the current
administration seems intent on racking up...and let's not forget...the
first Social Security IOUs come due this year.  Billions in new debt
to cover old theft.
0
roland (281)
3/17/2010 4:16:30 PM
In article <kAnO6wAPDRfk@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <8a15c6e0-38bc-438b-b09e-09e3c930517b@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>> 
>> Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.
>
>   Short memory?  I seem to recall the previous administration running
>   up the record debt.  So, OK, our children aren't done paying it off,
>   that's thier fault?

The "progressives" on both sides of the political fence are at fault.
The only thing I have a problem with is the terminology because what
they've been doing is really rather "recessive".  Government has out-
grown its usefulness... it just hasn't stopped growing.

The GWB administration and wars still haven't cost the tax payer what
the current den of snakes, rats and power usurpers has cost us and our
children, their children, their children's children, their children's
children's children... you can carry out the series as well as I can.

Here in the people's republic of New Jermany, where speech isn't free
and the government has usurped more and more and more like the "pigs"
they are at the trough filled by the starving taxpayer, the new state
Governor is not making friends.  He is making serious cuts in the glut
that was the proNJ machine and has vowed not to approve any new taxes.
He's not making friends in the typical proNJ political arena but he's
trying to clean up a huge and corrupt mess.  Too bad he's not in DC.

The problem is that these fuckwits in Government cannot understand the
exponential function.  You can't keep growing Gov't exponentially with
a finite base of tax payers trying to fill in the area under the curve.

There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
condition of nearly every state in the US union.  Government excesses
and growth such has been the case in the past several decades is about
to cause catastrophic ripples (measured high up on the rickter scale)
throughout the economy.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/17/2010 5:05:35 PM
seasoned_geek wrote:

> You can continue to quote "not quite" all you want.  I spent multiple
> years working on the trading floor system for a major stock exchange.
> China and Japan have begun liquidation of U.S. debt, but are currently
> trying to bleed it back into the market without raising too much
> suspicion. 

Just because you saw sales of debt on the market did not mean that China
wasn't still buying more debt than it was selling. And in the past,
China kept quiet about it.

Now, China and Japan have openly said that they would be lowering their
exposure to the USD.


> They will not be buying future debt which the current
> administration seems intent on racking up...

Your current administration had no choice because of the mess they
inherited.  And you'll find many countries in the same boat because that
banking mess affected a whole lot of countries.

The previous administration, despite their claims of being fiscally
responsible were one of the worse for pork and irresponsible spending
and irresponsible tax cuts.  Remember that the previous administration
had inherited a balanced budget. But the combination of the .com bust
and mismanagement of 9-11 event turned the USA into a virtual comatose
state with the building industry supported by fake mortgages and people
seeing Osama Bin Ladens everywhere.

Under Reagan, who was so opposed to state subsidies, the USA actually
made money from the aid to prop up Chrysler to prevent it from going
under. I suspect the same will happen to the banks and to GM.

Recuperating the one time "loans" to banks and GM won't solve the
government debt/deficit. It will only lessen it. The big question is
whether the "one time" spending to prevent a depression will stop and
the deficit will be reduced to what it was before the banking crisis
(still bad), or whether the spending will continue. By next year, this
should become obvious.

Government have some leaway in how they forecast the future. Some tend
to want top paint a rosy picture which they never obtain, while some
tend to paint a darker picture and do better than predicted.

The last liberal government in Canada had surpluses for a number of
years, but the amount were understated. They paid back capital debt with
that money and showed than as an expenditure (making the surprus look
smaller than it really was).

When the GW Harper government came in, they declared the surpluys was
greater than previously advertised and immediatly started to cut taxes
and obviously stopped paying back debt capital. At first sign of a cold,
the government went back int deficit since the real suprlus had almost
all been spent.

As the previous policy remained in place there would have been room to
move because of the number had been made more conservative.

0
3/17/2010 7:43:18 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
> condition of nearly every state in the US union.  


As some outside the USA, it always boggles the mind why your budgets are
made they way they are. Every congressman and senator basically gets to
add/hide their own spending in the budget as a condition of getting
their vote, resulting in huge amounts of pork and no true leadership in
the budget.

I think it was probably a fluke/miracle that the republicans and
democrats were able to balance the budget under clinton.

I think it should be your president that writes the budget with no
amendments possible by congress or senate. If some senator wants to add
a bridge to nowhere as a condition of his vote, then he should make a
public petition to the president to have that added to the budget.

(and BTW while the bridge to the Juneau airport was not built, the 10km
road between the bridge and the airport was built !) And that is truly a
road to nowhere.
0
3/17/2010 8:06:31 PM
In article <4ba130d7$0$12450$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>seasoned_geek wrote:
>
>> You can continue to quote "not quite" all you want.  I spent multiple
>> years working on the trading floor system for a major stock exchange.
>> China and Japan have begun liquidation of U.S. debt, but are currently
>> trying to bleed it back into the market without raising too much
>> suspicion. 
>
>Just because you saw sales of debt on the market did not mean that China
>wasn't still buying more debt than it was selling. And in the past,
>China kept quiet about it.
>
>Now, China and Japan have openly said that they would be lowering their
>exposure to the USD.
>
>
>> They will not be buying future debt which the current
>> administration seems intent on racking up...
>
>Your current administration had no choice because of the mess they
>inherited.  And you'll find many countries in the same boat because that
>banking mess affected a whole lot of countries.
>
>The previous administration, despite their claims of being fiscally
>responsible were one of the worse for pork and irresponsible spending
>and irresponsible tax cuts.  Remember that the previous administration
>had inherited a balanced budget. But the combination of the .com bust
>and mismanagement of 9-11 event turned the USA into a virtual comatose
>state with the building industry supported by fake mortgages and people
>seeing Osama Bin Ladens everywhere.

Balanced budgets are nothing more than accounting tricks.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 12:53:16 AM
In article <4ba13649$0$24367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
>> condition of nearly every state in the US union.  
>
>
>As some outside the USA, it always boggles the mind why your budgets are
>made they way they are. Every congressman and senator basically gets to
>add/hide their own spending in the budget as a condition of getting
>their vote, resulting in huge amounts of pork and no true leadership in
>the budget.

Absolute power corrupts absolute.


>I think it was probably a fluke/miracle that the republicans and
>democrats were able to balance the budget under clinton.

As I said before, balanced budgets are accounting tricks.  Like deciding
when to write off assets in todo or to depreciate them over time.  There
are ways the Gov't have played this game again and again; especially, when
an incumbent or a lame duck wants to go out without the foul stench they've
eminated during their term following them.  'Tis simple.  Postpone payment
of items for the next moron who takes the driver's seat.


>I think it should be your president that writes the budget with no
>amendments possible by congress or senate. If some senator wants to add
>a bridge to nowhere as a condition of his vote, then he should make a
>public petition to the president to have that added to the budget.

Well, the good people known affectionately as our founding fathers, made
that the job of congress because they didn't trust such power in the hands
of any one person.  Sadly, they were also honest men and couldn't foresee
that their making the president relatively ineffective and the congress so
all powerfull would yield the levels of corruption, greed, graft, et al, 
that we see today.  


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 1:04:25 AM
In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>
>As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the 
>homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are, 
>and will remain, in deep trouble!

You won't get any argument from me there.

Government does not produce food.
Government does not build houses.
Government does not cure disease.
Government *DOES* tax the dead.
Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 1:14:44 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <kAnO6wAPDRfk@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <8a15c6e0-38bc-438b-b09e-09e3c930517b@k17g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, seasoned_geek <roland@logikalsolutions.com> writes:
>>> Obamma and Congress have maxed out the U.S. Visa card.
>>   Short memory?  I seem to recall the previous administration running
>>   up the record debt.  So, OK, our children aren't done paying it off,
>>   that's thier fault?
> 
> The "progressives" on both sides of the political fence are at fault.
> The only thing I have a problem with is the terminology because what
> they've been doing is really rather "recessive".  Government has out-
> grown its usefulness... it just hasn't stopped growing.
> 
> The GWB administration and wars still haven't cost the tax payer what
> the current den of snakes, rats and power usurpers has cost us and our
> children, their children, their children's children, their children's
> children's children... you can carry out the series as well as I can.
> 
> Here in the people's republic of New Jermany, where speech isn't free
> and the government has usurped more and more and more like the "pigs"
> they are at the trough filled by the starving taxpayer, the new state
> Governor is not making friends.  He is making serious cuts in the glut
> that was the proNJ machine and has vowed not to approve any new taxes.
> He's not making friends in the typical proNJ political arena but he's
> trying to clean up a huge and corrupt mess.  Too bad he's not in DC.
> 
> The problem is that these fuckwits in Government cannot understand the
> exponential function.  You can't keep growing Gov't exponentially with
> a finite base of tax payers trying to fill in the area under the curve.
> 
> There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
> condition of nearly every state in the US union.  Government excesses
> and growth such has been the case in the past several decades is about
> to cause catastrophic ripples (measured high up on the rickter scale)
> throughout the economy.
> 

As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the 
homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are, 
and will remain, in deep trouble!
0
Richard
3/18/2010 5:24:02 AM
 In article <4ba13649$0$24367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:

>As some outside the USA, it always boggles the mind why your budgets are
>made they way they are. Every congressman and senator basically gets to
>add/hide their own spending in the budget as a condition of getting
>their vote, resulting in huge amounts of pork and no true leadership in
>the budget.

   We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
   us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
   British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?

0
koehler
3/18/2010 2:00:45 PM
 VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
 
> There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
> condition of nearly every state in the US union.  
 
   While the current budget condition of the states is in large part due
   to the poor economy not shoring up their spending habits, some of
   those spending habits are the result of federal cuts in aid to
   states, passing expenses downward.
   
   This, of course, helps Republicans run for state office, claiming
   it's the Democrats spending too much money again.  Never mind the
   records of the Clinton and W administrations on spending and budget.
   
0
koehler
3/18/2010 2:00:45 PM
In article <AuUCqhwYEWtw@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <4ba13649$0$24367$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
>>As some outside the USA, it always boggles the mind why your budgets are
>>made they way they are. Every congressman and senator basically gets to
>>add/hide their own spending in the budget as a condition of getting
>>their vote, resulting in huge amounts of pork and no true leadership in
>>the budget.
>
>   We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>   us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>   British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?

A collective embodiment of evil doers is not much better than the evil
doings of one.  It's far easier to hang one from a tree than hundreds.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 2:39:42 PM
In article <hzKTHBs7xgJ8@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> There is simply TOO MUCH GOVERNMENT.  Take a look at the fiscal budget
>> condition of nearly every state in the US union.  
> 
>   While the current budget condition of the states is in large part due
>   to the poor economy not shoring up their spending habits, some of
>   those spending habits are the result of federal cuts in aid to
>   states, passing expenses downward.
>   
>   This, of course, helps Republicans run for state office, claiming
>   it's the Democrats spending too much money again.  Never mind the
>   records of the Clinton and W administrations on spending and budget.

The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.
Couple that in with the legislated corruption and you have a formula
for its government collapse.  One of the other problems is that they
have set the example for local government and New Jermany Extortion
Administration (aka, the schools).  Recent referendums throughout the
people's republic of New Jermany for nonsense like irrigation systems
on school properties, air conditioning systems, solar, etc. just reek
of their inability acknowledge that the economy is amuck.  Just what
makes them think they can extract more money from the dry sponges of
the proNJ taxpayer?  He have the highest income tax, business taxes,
and property taxes in the nation.  People and businesses are leaving
the proNJ in droves.  The tax base is eroding but they keep on feed-
ing chateaubriand to the pigs dining at the public trough.  If you're
up to it, find and read the book "The Soprano State".  This is *BIG*
government run amuck.  The fed isn't all that far removed from the
situations described in that book about the proNJ.

As for the "economy" not shoring up their spending habits... when/if
you or I don't have money, we don't or can't spend.  We have to cut
back on frivolous things and, sometimes, necessities!!!  I, for one,
have had to forego one of my medications as I simply cannot afford
to buy it anymore.  (It's $1200 a vial which is a month supply for
this one medication of about 12 that I take.)  It's risking my health
but until somebody does something about important life-necessary 
medications (and this current medical bill fuck ain't it), I'll have
to forego it.  The government, however, keeps spending, spending and
spending as if they have an inexhaustible supply of cash.  They may
think they do but they are exhausting the american taxpayer; killing
some in the process.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 2:39:42 PM
Bob Koehler wrote:

>    We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>    us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>    British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?

Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
the president and the president then decides whether to include the
amendment or not.

Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).


There are times where it is better for a government to not be able to do
anything substantial. But there are times when strong leadership is
required and such leadership needs to have the ability to make changes.

I think the health care issue is the best example. To make a truly
better system, a president would need authority to make a total rebuild
of the health care system without compromises.  The minute you have to
start to make compromises to continue to support the HMOs' profitability
etc, you end up with a hybrid system that risks being worse than the
current one.

The case of GM is a good example of the need to change: GM is saddled
with responsability to pay for health care costs of its retired/laid-off
employees for life.  There are more of those then they current active
employees.

There is no way such a company can compete against some japanese firm
setting up a factory in the USA and not have to worry about the health
care costs of retired employees for quite some time.

Also, and more importantly, because health care costs represent a
significantly higher proportion of GDP compared to other western
nations, it means that "made in USA" products end up costing more and
this decreases the USA's competitiveness. With health care costs
represing about 5% more of GDP in USA compared to europe/canada for
instance, it means that USA products end up being 5% more expensive at
the end of the day.

Health care needs to be viewed in the same way as the national highway,
railway or even internet infrastructure: they are needed to run at low
cost and efficiently in order to make it possible for industry to be
efficient and competitive.


And I have to give the Bush war criminal some credit. His mignons were
able to condition the nation to accept anything in the name of
protecting it from Bin Laden, and they were able to pass stuff like the
patriot Act which is so much against everything americans believe in
without any opposition and with most elected representatives voting to
support it without even reading it.

Meanwhile, a more honest attrempt are reforming the health care system
is impossible because the only way to get a vote is to water down any
proposal so much that it ends up being an almost exact mirror image of
the current system.
0
JF
3/18/2010 7:29:48 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.

The Reblublik of Kalifornia is considering entering Chapter 11
protection from Bankrupcy.

The've even begun to print new money. I recently was there and got to
see their new $8.00 bill.  It has a picture of Swartznegger "Governator"
 on it. It is a "Bill of Total Recall" for "The Abused State of
California".  Under the picture of the Kalifornia legislature on the
back of the bill is the inscription "Den of True Lies".

I took the flyaway bus to the airport ($7.00) and handed the guy at the
booth that $8.00 bill, and he was about to hand me my $1.00 change with
the ticket when he stopped and realised there were no slot for $8.00 in
his cash drawer :-) In teh few days I had that bill in California, I had
tons of fun with it. They are realistic enough that they don't stand out
as being different from real money and it always took a while before the
 person realised it was a fake dollar bill.


http://www.slick.com/new/gaggifts/webpages/newbil.asp

(The California $8.00 bill is out of print, so I have a collector's
item, but there are others, and if you go to their main page, you can
get bigger images of the current ones on Obama, Hillary etc).
0
JF
3/18/2010 7:44:46 PM
In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Bob Koehler wrote:
>
>>    We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>>    us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>>    British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>
>Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
>without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
>for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
>the president and the president then decides whether to include the
>amendment or not.
>
>Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
>own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
>the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
>debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
>congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).

You need to study the constitution.  Also, who's to stop the congress 
critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
pork?  

It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
from ourselves.  Taxation with representation is not better than when
the colonists chided about taxation without it.  It's all the same.

   A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
   to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
   and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
   earned -- this is the sum of good government.
   -- Thomas Jefferson

   I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
   I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
   -- Thomas Jefferson

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 8:18:25 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
> 
>>    We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>>    us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>>    British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
> 
> Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
> without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
> for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> amendment or not.
> 
> Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
> own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
> the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
> debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
> congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
> 
> 
> There are times where it is better for a government to not be able to do
> anything substantial. But there are times when strong leadership is
> required and such leadership needs to have the ability to make changes.
> 
> I think the health care issue is the best example. To make a truly
> better system, a president would need authority to make a total rebuild
> of the health care system without compromises.  The minute you have to
> start to make compromises to continue to support the HMOs' profitability
> etc, you end up with a hybrid system that risks being worse than the
> current one.
> 
> The case of GM is a good example of the need to change: GM is saddled
> with responsability to pay for health care costs of its retired/laid-off
> employees for life.  There are more of those then they current active
> employees.
> 
> There is no way such a company can compete against some japanese firm
> setting up a factory in the USA and not have to worry about the health
> care costs of retired employees for quite some time.
> 
I'd make a small bet that a Japanese firm setting up a factory in the 
U.S. would be setting money aside for the purpose of paying health care 
and pensions.

Of course if the government creates a health care obligation by fiat 
there probably won't be any reserves dedicated for the purpose so it 
will have to come out of current income!

> Also, and more importantly, because health care costs represent a
> significantly higher proportion of GDP compared to other western
> nations, it means that "made in USA" products end up costing more and
> this decreases the USA's competitiveness. With health care costs
> represing about 5% more of GDP in USA compared to europe/canada for
> instance, it means that USA products end up being 5% more expensive at
> the end of the day.
> 
> Health care needs to be viewed in the same way as the national highway,
> railway or even internet infrastructure: they are needed to run at low
> cost and efficiently in order to make it possible for industry to be
> efficient and competitive.
> 

Low cost health care is an oxymoron!  100 years ago your doctor would 
made house calls for fifty cents and would have held your hand while you 
died!  There wasn't a hell of a lot else he could do.  There were no 
sulfa drugs, no antibiotics, no treatment for diabetes, nothing!

It can take hundreds of millions of dollars to bring a new drug to 
market.  It also takes years!

The alternative is risking things like the Thalidomide disaster.

I've often thought that we should rate drugs on a scale of A-Z where A 
represents drugs that we have used for a hundred years or so and 
understand fairly well.  Z, of course, would mean "it didn't kill the 
test animals", Y would mean it didn't kill he human volunteers either.

Even aspirin is not perfectly safe for everyone!

A lot of drugs could be cheaper if we were willing to accept greater 
risks!  Are you?

0
Richard
3/18/2010 8:38:35 PM
On 2010-03-18 16:29, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I, for one,
> have had to forego one of my medications as I simply cannot afford
> to buy it anymore.  (It's $1200 a vial which is a month supply for
> this one medication of about 12 that I take.)

We have an absolute limit on the cost for medications per person
at aprox $250 total per *year*. The rest is covered for.


> The government, however, keeps spending, spending and
> spending...

Yes, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Not on your medications which
IMHO would have been better spent money.

0
Jan
3/18/2010 8:53:07 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> I'd make a small bet that a Japanese firm setting up a factory in the 
> U.S. would be setting money aside for the purpose of paying health care 
> and pensions.

Yep. But for the first 10-20 years or operations, they don't have to
dish out much money because they don't have many retired employees.

More importantly, the new japanese factory is built to be automated from
day one and the number of staff needed to operate it will be more or
less stable.  So each staff member can contribute to their retiurement
fund (through the company). And when they do retire, there should be an
equal number of employees working at the factory.

In the case of the legacy car makers, they started with a gazillion more
workers because there was no automation, and over the years, have
significantly reduced the number of workers at factories, but that has
resulted in an equal increase in the number of people getting health
care funding as they retired or were laid off.

So folks like GM are now supporting an army of retired people that dates
back from the pre-automation days, with the active employee force
representing only a fraction of that retired army, so contributions by
active employees are much less than needed to support the retired ones.
And that was not part of the actuarial predictions back when GM agreed
to the union demands in the pre-automation days when it was thought
workworce would continue to grow.


> Low cost health care is an oxymoron! 

Health care costs are a problem in every developped nation. But
different systems are able to cost a lot less relative to the USA. (but
still cost a lot).  I think most western nations have health care at
about 12% of GDP while the USA has it at 17 or 18% of GDP.

There are a lot of accounting tricks done that significantly increase
the amounts of money shuffled between individuals and employers,
insurance companies, hospitals and doctors.

Consider an insurance company that wishes to reduce its declared
profits. It tells the hospital it owns to charge $20,000 for a minor 15
minute surgery to put stitches on a bleeding patient.  Insurance company
dishes out $20,000 for that procedure and declares that as an expense.
Hospital declares the $20,000 as revenue.  Hospital pays the tax on it
instead of insurance company. But the money stays in the same family.

But when the patient's health care is paid by some other insurance
company or by the governent, they need to pay real money to cover that
$20,000 band aid.

In Canada, the provincial government set prices for
procedures/surgeries/visits. It is a flat fee. So whether you go to
hospital 1 or hospital 2, it costs the same to the government and
hospitals cannot charge exhorbitant prices for surgeries.

If there were similar price controls in the USA for each type of
surgeries, you'd find many insurance companies losing interest in the
busines since there would be a lot less profit to be made. But in the
end, the USA economy as a whole would benefit because its health care
costs would come down from exhorbitant to "high" and would put the USA
on equal competitive footing with the rest of the developped world.


> It can take hundreds of millions of dollars to bring a new drug to 
> market.  It also takes years!

Nobody is disputing this. However, the drug companies charge MUCH more
for their products in the USA than in other developped nations. Why ?
Because they can. They know the insurance companies will pay those
exhorbitant prices.

In Canada, patent laws allow for generic drugs earlier than in the USA.
And provincial governments negotiate lower prices with the drug
manufacturers. If the drug manufacturers don't lower prices, the
government just buy generics and the drug manufacturer lose a lot of
business. You need to realise that each province is a HUGE HMO by USA
standard and they control a lot of purchasing of medical
supplies/drugs.If a province stops buying a blood thinning drug form A,
then A loses a LOT of business. So A negotiates the lower prices to keep
the business.

0
JF
3/18/2010 8:53:21 PM
In article <48OdnVuwc7u_Fj_WnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>JF Mezei wrote:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>> 
>>>    We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>>>    us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>>>    British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>> 
>> Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
>> without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
>> for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
>> the president and the president then decides whether to include the
>> amendment or not.
>> 
>> Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
>> own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
>> the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
>> debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
>> congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>> 
>> 
>> There are times where it is better for a government to not be able to do
>> anything substantial. But there are times when strong leadership is
>> required and such leadership needs to have the ability to make changes.
>> 
>> I think the health care issue is the best example. To make a truly
>> better system, a president would need authority to make a total rebuild
>> of the health care system without compromises.  The minute you have to
>> start to make compromises to continue to support the HMOs' profitability
>> etc, you end up with a hybrid system that risks being worse than the
>> current one.
>> 
>> The case of GM is a good example of the need to change: GM is saddled
>> with responsability to pay for health care costs of its retired/laid-off
>> employees for life.  There are more of those then they current active
>> employees.
>> 
>> There is no way such a company can compete against some japanese firm
>> setting up a factory in the USA and not have to worry about the health
>> care costs of retired employees for quite some time.
>> 
>I'd make a small bet that a Japanese firm setting up a factory in the 
>U.S. would be setting money aside for the purpose of paying health care 
>and pensions.
>
>Of course if the government creates a health care obligation by fiat 
>there probably won't be any reserves dedicated for the purpose so it 
>will have to come out of current income!
>
>> Also, and more importantly, because health care costs represent a
>> significantly higher proportion of GDP compared to other western
>> nations, it means that "made in USA" products end up costing more and
>> this decreases the USA's competitiveness. With health care costs
>> represing about 5% more of GDP in USA compared to europe/canada for
>> instance, it means that USA products end up being 5% more expensive at
>> the end of the day.
>> 
>> Health care needs to be viewed in the same way as the national highway,
>> railway or even internet infrastructure: they are needed to run at low
>> cost and efficiently in order to make it possible for industry to be
>> efficient and competitive.
>> 
>
>Low cost health care is an oxymoron!  100 years ago your doctor would 
>made house calls for fifty cents and would have held your hand while you 
>died!  There wasn't a hell of a lot else he could do.  There were no 
>sulfa drugs, no antibiotics, no treatment for diabetes, nothing!
>
>It can take hundreds of millions of dollars to bring a new drug to 
>market.  It also takes years!
>
>The alternative is risking things like the Thalidomide disaster.
>
>I've often thought that we should rate drugs on a scale of A-Z where A 
>represents drugs that we have used for a hundred years or so and 
>understand fairly well.  Z, of course, would mean "it didn't kill the 
>test animals", Y would mean it didn't kill he human volunteers either.
>
>Even aspirin is not perfectly safe for everyone!
>
>A lot of drugs could be cheaper if we were willing to accept greater 
>risks!  Are you?

Medicine is a fucking sham.  We're not that much farther out of the dark
ages of leeches and blood lettings.  The only big diff is that now to get
a leeching and bloodletting costs BIG FUKCING MONEY.  I *may* change my
opinion the day medicine becomes a science.  As long as it is merely an
industry hell bent on prolonging illness for money and treating symptoms
not disease, I'm but buying into their bullshit.  Not one of the dozens
of medications I take treats the disease... only its symptoms.  How many
cures can you cite?
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 11:00:10 PM
In article <hnu3rj$vhh$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-03-18 16:29, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I, for one,
>> have had to forego one of my medications as I simply cannot afford
>> to buy it anymore.  (It's $1200 a vial which is a month supply for
>> this one medication of about 12 that I take.)
>
>We have an absolute limit on the cost for medications per person
>at aprox $250 total per *year*. The rest is covered for.

I'll send you $250.  You send me a year's supply of pramlintide.


>> The government, however, keeps spending, spending and
>> spending...
>
>Yes, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Not on your medications which
>IMHO would have been better spent money.

If they did not spend that money there, it still would not see its way to
my pharmalogical needs.  I'd have no issue paying for meds if it were not
that the US gov't doesn't see the right to _life_, liberty and the persuit
of happiness as lex loci.  We can deduct a miniscule portion of medical on
the yearly income tax return.  To be fair, it should allow a 1005 deduction
for chronic (live or die) medical expenses.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/18/2010 11:20:32 PM
All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
0
FrankS
3/19/2010 3:17:52 AM
FrankS wrote:
> All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?

VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducing
employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.
0
JF
3/19/2010 5:35:02 AM
JF Mezei wrote:
> FrankS wrote:
>> All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
>
> VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducing
> employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
> western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.

Ah yes; the six degrees ...
0
Mark
3/19/2010 6:37:41 AM
On Mar 19, 5:35=A0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> FrankS wrote:
> > All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
>
> VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducing
> employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
> western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.

(Not directed solely at JF)

That sentence seems relevant to comp.os.vms

What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
subject of >>VMS<< rather than (say, in this context) on the business
practices of the Western pharmaceutical industry? There's a very valid
discussion on that subject to have, but is this the right place?
0
John
3/19/2010 8:46:28 AM
In article <dc4533de-2d42-4a8b-af30-42af37c6e0d2@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>, John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>On Mar 19, 5:35=A0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>> FrankS wrote:
>> > All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
>>
>> VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducing
>> employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
>> western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.
>
>(Not directed solely at JF)
>
>That sentence seems relevant to comp.os.vms
>
>What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
>two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
>looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
>subject of >>VMS<< rather than (say, in this context) on the business
>practices of the Western pharmaceutical industry? There's a very valid
>discussion on that subject to have, but is this the right place?

Hmm... and when I recently posted about some VMS observations, those went
unanswered, unread, unacknowledged.

When I attended DECUS events or VMS bootcamp, I don't recall conversation
being 100% focused 100% of the time on VMS.  At least, there's still some
life here. 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/19/2010 10:32:35 AM
John Wallace wrote:

> What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
> two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
> looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
> subject of >>VMS<< rather than 


It says that comp.os.vms is populated by human beings with individual
personalities and with sufficient maturity to conduct themseves and
discuss difficult political topics in a civilised manner.
0
JF
3/19/2010 10:47:46 AM
On 2010-03-19 01:07, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<hnu3rj$vhh$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>> On 2010-03-18 16:29, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> I, for one,
>>> have had to forego one of my medications as I simply cannot afford
>>> to buy it anymore.  (It's $1200 a vial which is a month supply for
>>> this one medication of about 12 that I take.)
>>
>> We have an absolute limit on the cost for medications per person
>> at aprox $250 total per *year*. The rest is covered for.
>
> I'll send you $250.  You send me a year's supply of pramlintide.
>

No, you don't understand.
*You* move over here and you'll get it just as
anyone else who is in need of it.
0
Jan
3/19/2010 11:25:49 AM
JF Mezei wrote:
> John Wallace wrote:
> 
>> What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
>> two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
>> looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
>> subject of >>VMS<< rather than 
> 
> 
> It says that comp.os.vms is populated by human beings with individual
> personalities and with sufficient maturity to conduct themseves and
> discuss difficult political topics in a civilised manner.

<snicker> <choke> <gasp>
0
Richard
3/19/2010 12:50:03 PM
In article <8fc6a64c-37d6-45f5-b3ed-4e35ff1aa57a@g4g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:
> All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?

   You think we want to discuss these things with a bunch of Microsoft
   weanies?

0
koehler
3/19/2010 2:29:20 PM
In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
> 
>>    We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess.  You want
>>    us to give one idiot that much power?  How long did it take the
>>    British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
> 
> Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
> without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
> for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> amendment or not.

   All contents of the existing bills and amendments are already public.
   Who has the time to read them?

   In my book, that's too much power in the hands of the president, as
   he very simply puts in his own party's pork and leaves out the other
   party's, heavily influencing state election results.

   Getting rid of both party's pork is what we need, but few voters want
   to get rid of thier own pork.

0
koehler
3/19/2010 2:29:20 PM
In article <00A9AA0E.4BE0DE83@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.

   The habit of passing expenses down to the states, and then blaiming
   Democratic govenros and state legilators goes back at least to the
   Reagan administration.

0
koehler
3/19/2010 2:29:21 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <00qCo7UrFBtK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>> In article <00A9AA0E.4BE0DE83@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
>>> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.
>>   The habit of passing expenses down to the states, and then blaiming
>>   Democratic govenros and state legilators goes back at least to the
>>   Reagan administration.
> 
> Spoken like a true democRAT.  Don't you get it?  They all suck and they are
> all in it for the money and that money they're in it for is yours and mine.
> 
> You'll not convince me, living here in the proNJ which has be in the hands
> of the democRATs since the late '60s, that the woes of the state are caused
> by the fed passing or not passing expenses down.  Pigs living high on the 
> for too many years.  Like I said, there's a good expose' on the conditions
> here in the proNJ, "The Soprano State".  Written by two reporters from one
> of the state's more liberal rags too.  The spending spree under the former
> Governor Whorezine, whose 4 year tenure was just abbreviated by the people
> of this state, dwarfed the spending of several administrations before.  The
> problem, the one party machine in the proNJ.  I nearly wet myself that the
> proNJ put a 'republican' in the governor's seat.  At least this "Christie"
> seems to be one.  That former one was only in name; not action or policy.
> I do hope he cuts and cuts deep into the troughs of the Trenton poli-pigs.
> If anything, the partisan poly-ticks may slow the fiscal hemorrhaging long
> enough for the rest of us to jump from this rat infested ship to some other
> state.
> 

Well?  What's keeping you here in the People's Republic of New Jersey? 
There are forty-nine other states. . . .
0
Richard
3/19/2010 3:30:01 PM
In article <00qCo7UrFBtK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9AA0E.4BE0DE83@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> 
>> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
>> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.
>
>   The habit of passing expenses down to the states, and then blaiming
>   Democratic govenros and state legilators goes back at least to the
>   Reagan administration.

Spoken like a true democRAT.  Don't you get it?  They all suck and they are
all in it for the money and that money they're in it for is yours and mine.

You'll not convince me, living here in the proNJ which has be in the hands
of the democRATs since the late '60s, that the woes of the state are caused
by the fed passing or not passing expenses down.  Pigs living high on the 
for too many years.  Like I said, there's a good expose' on the conditions
here in the proNJ, "The Soprano State".  Written by two reporters from one
of the state's more liberal rags too.  The spending spree under the former
Governor Whorezine, whose 4 year tenure was just abbreviated by the people
of this state, dwarfed the spending of several administrations before.  The
problem, the one party machine in the proNJ.  I nearly wet myself that the
proNJ put a 'republican' in the governor's seat.  At least this "Christie"
seems to be one.  That former one was only in name; not action or policy.
I do hope he cuts and cuts deep into the troughs of the Trenton poli-pigs.
If anything, the partisan poly-ticks may slow the fiscal hemorrhaging long
enough for the rest of us to jump from this rat infested ship to some other
state.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/19/2010 3:30:01 PM
On 2010-03-19 18:23, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<VLidnS-5a-yMCD7WnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<00qCo7UrFBtK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>> In article<00A9AA0E.4BE0DE83@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>>> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
>>>>> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.
>>>>    The habit of passing expenses down to the states, and then blaiming
>>>>    Democratic govenros and state legilators goes back at least to the
>>>>    Reagan administration.
>>>
>>> Spoken like a true democRAT.  Don't you get it?  They all suck and they are
>>> all in it for the money and that money they're in it for is yours and mine.
>>>
>>> You'll not convince me, living here in the proNJ which has be in the hands
>>> of the democRATs since the late '60s, that the woes of the state are caused
>>> by the fed passing or not passing expenses down.  Pigs living high on the
>>> for too many years.  Like I said, there's a good expose' on the conditions
>>> here in the proNJ, "The Soprano State".  Written by two reporters from one
>>> of the state's more liberal rags too.  The spending spree under the former
>>> Governor Whorezine, whose 4 year tenure was just abbreviated by the people
>>> of this state, dwarfed the spending of several administrations before.  The
>>> problem, the one party machine in the proNJ.  I nearly wet myself that the
>>> proNJ put a 'republican' in the governor's seat.  At least this "Christie"
>>> seems to be one.  That former one was only in name; not action or policy.
>>> I do hope he cuts and cuts deep into the troughs of the Trenton poli-pigs.
>>> If anything, the partisan poly-ticks may slow the fiscal hemorrhaging long
>>> enough for the rest of us to jump from this rat infested ship to some other
>>> state.
>>>
>>
>> Well?  What's keeping you here in the People's Republic of New Jersey?
>> There are forty-nine other states. . . .
>
> Try to sell proNJ property lately?  Nobody is buying and the government has
> put so many restrictions and regulations the sale of property that it's too
> expensive to sell.
>
> The only thing I like about *here* is that I'm equidistant to Philadelphia,
> NYC and ACY.
>

So am I (more or less), but I like it too...

0
Jan
3/19/2010 4:26:28 PM
In article <VLidnS-5a-yMCD7WnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <00qCo7UrFBtK@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>> In article <00A9AA0E.4BE0DE83@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>> The people's republic of New Jermany has been teetering on the brink
>>>> of insovlency since long before the administrations you've mentioned.
>>>   The habit of passing expenses down to the states, and then blaiming
>>>   Democratic govenros and state legilators goes back at least to the
>>>   Reagan administration.
>> 
>> Spoken like a true democRAT.  Don't you get it?  They all suck and they are
>> all in it for the money and that money they're in it for is yours and mine.
>> 
>> You'll not convince me, living here in the proNJ which has be in the hands
>> of the democRATs since the late '60s, that the woes of the state are caused
>> by the fed passing or not passing expenses down.  Pigs living high on the 
>> for too many years.  Like I said, there's a good expose' on the conditions
>> here in the proNJ, "The Soprano State".  Written by two reporters from one
>> of the state's more liberal rags too.  The spending spree under the former
>> Governor Whorezine, whose 4 year tenure was just abbreviated by the people
>> of this state, dwarfed the spending of several administrations before.  The
>> problem, the one party machine in the proNJ.  I nearly wet myself that the
>> proNJ put a 'republican' in the governor's seat.  At least this "Christie"
>> seems to be one.  That former one was only in name; not action or policy.
>> I do hope he cuts and cuts deep into the troughs of the Trenton poli-pigs.
>> If anything, the partisan poly-ticks may slow the fiscal hemorrhaging long
>> enough for the rest of us to jump from this rat infested ship to some other
>> state.
>> 
>
>Well?  What's keeping you here in the People's Republic of New Jersey? 
>There are forty-nine other states. . . .

Try to sell proNJ property lately?  Nobody is buying and the government has
put so many restrictions and regulations the sale of property that it's too
expensive to sell.

The only thing I like about *here* is that I'm equidistant to Philadelphia,
NYC and ACY.
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/19/2010 4:30:32 PM
On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
>
>
> >Bob Koehler wrote:
>
> >> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
 want
> >> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
he
> >> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>
> >Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
> >without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
> >for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> >the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> >amendment or not.
>
> >Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
> >own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
> >the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
> >debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
> >congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>
> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
> pork? =A0
>
> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.

VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
goes.

Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?

>
> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson

More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.

>
> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson

Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
insurance, no? Do you not take from them?

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

0
Alan
3/24/2010 1:27:42 AM
On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>
>
>
> >As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the
> >homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are,
> >and will remain, in deep trouble!
>
> You won't get any argument from me there.

[VAXMAN, again: much of what you say is true. However . . . ]

First of all, it's all too easy to take the good for granted. When
something good happens, we hardly take notice and then get on with our
lives. When something bad happens it takes time and effort to deal
with and causes pain and what not. Thus it make a far more memorably
impression on us. Therefore, it takes some effort to recall the good.

One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
viewing Manhattan from afar.

>
> Government does not produce food.

Gov't keeps the food supply safe. Would you eat at a restaurant that
failed inspection or didn't even have an inspection? And would you
trust any company that claimed its product was "organic" without some
kind of central authoritative, enforceable definition? (Not that
organic foods are necessarily healthier. Truth in labeling is what I'm
getting at here.)

> Government does not build houses.

Gov't establishes code to keep buildings safe. I'm not sure about FL,
but did home builders voluntarily build much stronger buildings after
Hurricane Andrew? I doubt it. This paid off big time when Hurricane
Wilma struck FL.

> Government does not cure disease.

The gov't has all children injected with vaccines to prevent them from
getting all sorts of horrible ills, thereby obviating the need to come
up with cures (which would be far more expensive, I think).

> Government *DOES* tax the dead.

The dead don't own anything, and therefore cannot be taxed. Your sig
says something about making rich people poor. Isn't this what the
estate tax does in part? It is to prevent income inequality from
getting far worse than it is now.

> Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.

There's plenty of blame to go around to plenty of parties on this one.

Here's some stuff that gov't does well:

What the gov't does right:

Creating a environment (legal and monetary) in which businesses and
individuals can succeed. This, and high-quality universities, is what
draws people from around the world to the U.S. in numbers that exceeds
that of all other countries. (This is long-term average; obviously
gov't screws things up too, as in the current Financial Debacle.)

Weights and measures, and standards:

SI: Governments (primarily the U.S. and France, I believe) determine
the SI standards for the world. NIST continually develops increasingly
better technology and standards. For example, the meter has gone
through the following definitions: 1/10000000th of the distance from
the North Pole to the Equator, the distance between two marks on a
platinum-iridium bar in Paris, the length of a certain number of
wavelengths of light emitted by a certain atomic transition of
Krypton-86. And presently -- and amazingly -- it is based on the
distance light travels in one second, or equivalently, the speed of
light. This means that the speed of light is now a fixed number whose
accuracy is determined by the atomic clocks. This means that distance
is measured by clocks! (Of course, that's not really new: How far is
that place? About 20 minutes.)

TIME: The U.S., along with other countries, sets the time standard for
the world. The time is incredibly precise and accurate. And there is a
lot more than most people realize to get the time right. There are 3
versions of Universal Time, UT1 (which is corrected for polar wobble)
being the most important. Then there are International Atomic Time
(TAI); Ephemeris Time; and Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), which is
the reference for the civil time we all go by; and yet more
timescales, mostly peculiar to narrow interests.

It takes very precise measurements of stars and such to get the time
right. And the earth is slowly slowing down due to tidal friction (the
tides being caused by the Sun and Moon). Also, the Earth's rotation
rate varies very slightly due to wobble and mass shifts. And since the
Earth is rotating slower than it has in the past, an occasional leap
second has to be added to UTC to allow the Earth to "catch up" to TAI,
which doesn't slow down with time. (TIA is the average of member
atomic clocks around the world. UTC is offset from TIA by a integral
number of seconds.)

You can verify all this on the World Wide Web. Wikipedia is a good
place to start, esp. the article Universal Time.

W&M:Enforcement of weights and measures: When you buy a can of soup
and it says Net Wt. 15 oz., how do you know it's really 15 oz.? Would
you like to weigh every purchase and estimate the weights of the
containers? Would you like to measure how much gasoline you're putting
in your car yourself? I think not. The Gov't takes care of that.

RESEARCH: Funding basic research.

FCC: keeps the air waves orderly.

WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
weather data.

HEALTH AND SAFETY:

Greatly reducing air and water pollution.

Providing safe water supplies.

Inspections to keep the food supply healthy.

restaurant health inspections

Elevator inspections.

Other inspections.

Laws against fraud for all sorts of things, including food labeling
(Kosher, organic, light, fat-free, etc.).

[Speaking about laws, the gov't sure is good about cranking them out!
Be they good or bad.]

GAO (well, maybe -- I don't know for sure)

Police and Fire

Safety regulations (Okay, maybe some go to far, but some don't go far
enough: check the news about the three construction cranes that
collapsed in NYC recently. Well, that could have been an enforcement
problem.)

Code: Electrical codes, building codes, construction codes,
occupational safety, etc.

Licensing and registration of cars, electricians, etc.

NJ Transit runs immeasurably better than its privately owned
predecessor. I remember waiting over 90 minutes for a train one
Saturday to go to NYC. And very late trains were the norm. (Perhaps
even worse than Amtrak!) (OK, NJ Transit has its problems, but it is
still a vast improvement over Conrail.)

Satellites: cable news channels didn't put them up -- NASA did. There
are numerous other satellites: GPS, Landsat, spy, scientific, weather,
etc. The reader can make a list.

Which of the above would you like to eliminate?

You would prefer the Mafia?

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

This is what the estate tax is for.

AEF
0
Alan
3/24/2010 1:58:58 AM
On Mar 23, 9:27=A0pm, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfme=
zei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> > >Bob Koehler wrote:
>
> > >> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0Y=
ou want
> > >> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take=
 the
> > >> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>
> > >Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budge=
ts
> > >without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present the=
m
> > >for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> > >the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> > >amendment or not.
>
> > >Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
> > >own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
> > >the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
> > >debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
> > >congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>
> > You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
> > critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
> > pork? =A0
>
> > It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
> > from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
> > the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>
> VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
> goes.
>
> Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?
>
>
>
> > =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
> > =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
> > =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
> > =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
> > =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.

Things are A LOT different. A lot more people. A lot more technology.
A lot more everything, with the much higher potential of people
stepping all over each other. You need an "OS" (so to speak) to keep
order.

>
>
>
> > =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
> > =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away=
..
> > =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
>
>
> > --
> > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESI=
S(dot)ORG
>
> > =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> > Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people =
is by
> > turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
>

AEF
0
Alan
3/24/2010 2:02:18 AM
On Mar 23, 9:58=A0pm, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> > In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B.=
 Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > >As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the
> > >homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are=
,
> > >and will remain, in deep trouble!
>
> > You won't get any argument from me there.
>
> [VAXMAN, again: much of what you say is true. However . . . ]
>
> First of all, it's all too easy to take the good for granted. When
> something good happens, we hardly take notice and then get on with our
> lives. When something bad happens it takes time and effort to deal
> with and causes pain and what not. Thus it make a far more memorably
> impression on us. Therefore, it takes some effort to recall the good.
>
> One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
> reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
> 1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
> Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
> You could literally see it from far away.

You could see it close up, too!

Both are FAR cleaner now. The
> difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
> viewing Manhattan from afar.

AEF
0
Alan
3/24/2010 2:03:31 AM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>  writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the
>>> homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are,
>>> and will remain, in deep trouble!
>>
>> You won't get any argument from me there.
>
> [VAXMAN, again: much of what you say is true. However . . . ]
>
> First of all, it's all too easy to take the good for granted. When
> something good happens, we hardly take notice and then get on with our
> lives. When something bad happens it takes time and effort to deal
> with and causes pain and what not. Thus it make a far more memorably
> impression on us. Therefore, it takes some effort to recall the good.
>
> One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
> reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
> 1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
> Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
> You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
> difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
> viewing Manhattan from afar.
>
>>
>> Government does not produce food.
>
> Gov't keeps the food supply safe. Would you eat at a restaurant that
> failed inspection or didn't even have an inspection? And would you
> trust any company that claimed its product was "organic" without some
> kind of central authoritative, enforceable definition? (Not that
> organic foods are necessarily healthier. Truth in labeling is what I'm
> getting at here.)
>
>> Government does not build houses.
>
> Gov't establishes code to keep buildings safe. I'm not sure about FL,
> but did home builders voluntarily build much stronger buildings after
> Hurricane Andrew? I doubt it. This paid off big time when Hurricane
> Wilma struck FL.
>
>> Government does not cure disease.
>
> The gov't has all children injected with vaccines to prevent them from
> getting all sorts of horrible ills, thereby obviating the need to come
> up with cures (which would be far more expensive, I think).
>
>> Government *DOES* tax the dead.
>
> The dead don't own anything, and therefore cannot be taxed. Your sig
> says something about making rich people poor. Isn't this what the
> estate tax does in part? It is to prevent income inequality from
> getting far worse than it is now.
>
>> Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.
>
> There's plenty of blame to go around to plenty of parties on this one.
>
> Here's some stuff that gov't does well:
>
> What the gov't does right:
>
> Creating a environment (legal and monetary) in which businesses and
> individuals can succeed. This, and high-quality universities, is what
> draws people from around the world to the U.S. in numbers that exceeds
> that of all other countries. (This is long-term average; obviously
> gov't screws things up too, as in the current Financial Debacle.)
>
> Weights and measures, and standards:
>
> SI: Governments (primarily the U.S. and France, I believe) determine
> the SI standards for the world. NIST continually develops increasingly
> better technology and standards. For example, the meter has gone
> through the following definitions: 1/10000000th of the distance from
> the North Pole to the Equator, the distance between two marks on a
> platinum-iridium bar in Paris, the length of a certain number of
> wavelengths of light emitted by a certain atomic transition of
> Krypton-86. And presently -- and amazingly -- it is based on the
> distance light travels in one second, or equivalently, the speed of
> light. This means that the speed of light is now a fixed number whose
> accuracy is determined by the atomic clocks. This means that distance
> is measured by clocks! (Of course, that's not really new: How far is
> that place? About 20 minutes.)
>
> TIME: The U.S., along with other countries, sets the time standard for
> the world. The time is incredibly precise and accurate. And there is a
> lot more than most people realize to get the time right. There are 3
> versions of Universal Time, UT1 (which is corrected for polar wobble)
> being the most important. Then there are International Atomic Time
> (TAI); Ephemeris Time; and Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), which is
> the reference for the civil time we all go by; and yet more
> timescales, mostly peculiar to narrow interests.
>
> It takes very precise measurements of stars and such to get the time
> right. And the earth is slowly slowing down due to tidal friction (the
> tides being caused by the Sun and Moon). Also, the Earth's rotation
> rate varies very slightly due to wobble and mass shifts. And since the
> Earth is rotating slower than it has in the past, an occasional leap
> second has to be added to UTC to allow the Earth to "catch up" to TAI,
> which doesn't slow down with time. (TIA is the average of member
> atomic clocks around the world. UTC is offset from TIA by a integral
> number of seconds.)
>
> You can verify all this on the World Wide Web. Wikipedia is a good
> place to start, esp. the article Universal Time.
>
> W&M:Enforcement of weights and measures: When you buy a can of soup
> and it says Net Wt. 15 oz., how do you know it's really 15 oz.? Would
> you like to weigh every purchase and estimate the weights of the
> containers? Would you like to measure how much gasoline you're putting
> in your car yourself? I think not. The Gov't takes care of that.
>
> RESEARCH: Funding basic research.
>
> FCC: keeps the air waves orderly.
>
> WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
> weather data.
>
> HEALTH AND SAFETY:
>
> Greatly reducing air and water pollution.
>
> Providing safe water supplies.
>
> Inspections to keep the food supply healthy.
>
> restaurant health inspections
>
> Elevator inspections.
>
> Other inspections.
>
> Laws against fraud for all sorts of things, including food labeling
> (Kosher, organic, light, fat-free, etc.).
>
> [Speaking about laws, the gov't sure is good about cranking them out!
> Be they good or bad.]
>
> GAO (well, maybe -- I don't know for sure)
>
> Police and Fire
>
> Safety regulations (Okay, maybe some go to far, but some don't go far
> enough: check the news about the three construction cranes that
> collapsed in NYC recently. Well, that could have been an enforcement
> problem.)
>
> Code: Electrical codes, building codes, construction codes,
> occupational safety, etc.
>
> Licensing and registration of cars, electricians, etc.
>
> NJ Transit runs immeasurably better than its privately owned
> predecessor. I remember waiting over 90 minutes for a train one
> Saturday to go to NYC. And very late trains were the norm. (Perhaps
> even worse than Amtrak!) (OK, NJ Transit has its problems, but it is
> still a vast improvement over Conrail.)
>
> Satellites: cable news channels didn't put them up -- NASA did. There
> are numerous other satellites: GPS, Landsat, spy, scientific, weather,
> etc. The reader can make a list.
>
> Which of the above would you like to eliminate?
>
> You would prefer the Mafia?
>
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>
>>   http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
> This is what the estate tax is for.
>
> AEF

Not a far stretch (just substitute 'government' as required) ...

Reg:    They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we 
had, not just from us, from our fathers and from our fathers' fathers.

Stan:   And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg:    Yes.

Stan:   And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

Reg:    All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever 
given us in return?

Xerxes: The aqueduct.

Reg:    Oh yeah, yeah they gave us that. Yeah. That's true.

Masked Activist:    And the sanitation!

Stan:    Oh yes... sanitation, Reg, you remember what the city used to 
be like.

Reg:    All right, I'll grant you that the aqueduct and the sanitation 
are two things that the Romans have done...

Matthias:    And the roads...

Reg:    (sharply) Well yes obviously the roads... the roads go without 
saying.  But apart from the aqueduct, the sanitation and the roads...

Another Masked Activist:    Irrigation...

Other Masked Voices:    Medicine... Education... Health...

Reg:    Yes... all right, fair enough...

Activist Near Front:    And the wine...

Omnes:    Oh yes! True!

Francis:    Yeah. That's something we'd really miss if the Romans left, 
Reg.

Masked Activist at Back:    Public baths!

Stan:    And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now.

Francis:    Yes, they certainly know how to keep order... (general 
nodding)... let's face it, they're the only ones who could in a place 
like this.

     (more general murmurs of agreement)

Reg:    All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and 
medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a 
freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans 
done for us?

Xerxes:    Brought peace!

Reg:    (very angry, he's not having a good meeting at all) What!? Oh... 
(scornfully) Peace, yes... shut up!

(Apologies; couldn't help myself.  Python parodied the ideologue so 
adeptly.)
0
Mark
3/24/2010 7:07:44 AM
In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
>i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >Bob Koehler wrote:
>>
>> >> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
> want
>> >> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
>he
>> >> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>>
>> >Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
>> >without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
>> >for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
>> >the president and the president then decides whether to include the
>> >amendment or not.
>>
>> >Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
>> >own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
>> >the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
>> >debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
>> >congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>>
>> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
>> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
>> pork? =A0
>>
>> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
>> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
>> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>
>VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
>goes.
>
>Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?

You asked it?  You could answer it.  The answer should be as plain as the
nose on your face.  It's just another scheme to derail the representative
voting process.


>> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
>> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
>> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
>> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
>More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.

Are they?

People no longer want freedom?  Privacy from government intervention?


>> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
>> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
>Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>insurance, no? Do you not take from them?

I pay for my medicines.  I work wholy to suvive and, when others "steal"
my money through taxes or court edict, it causes ME the loss of life and 
of liberty and of persuit of happiness.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 11:07:42 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
>> i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>>> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
>> want
>>>>> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
>> he
>>>>> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>>>> Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
>>>> without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
>>>> for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
>>>> the president and the president then decides whether to include the
>>>> amendment or not.
>>>> Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
>>>> own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
>>>> the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
>>>> debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
>>>> congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>>> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
>>> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
>>> pork? =A0
>>>
>>> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
>>> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
>>> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>> VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
>> goes.
>>
>> Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?
> 
> You asked it?  You could answer it.  The answer should be as plain as the
> nose on your face.  It's just another scheme to derail the representative
> voting process.
> 
> 
>>> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
>>> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
>>> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
>>> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
>>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>> More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.
> 
> Are they?
> 
> People no longer want freedom?  Privacy from government intervention?
> 
> 
>>> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
>>> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
>>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> 
> I pay for my medicines.  I work wholy to suvive and, when others "steal"
> my money through taxes or court edict, it causes ME the loss of life and 
> of liberty and of persuit of happiness.
> 

Taxes are not "theft".  They are the natural result of people demanding 
that government do something.  Allowing and/or requiring that government 
"do something" allows/requires that government collect taxes to pay for 
it.  Needless to say, having government do something is probably the 
most expensive way to do it.
0
Richard
3/24/2010 12:14:43 PM
In article <113b22ef-ff52-4160-9a03-d06bec44b67d@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the
>> >homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are,
>> >and will remain, in deep trouble!
>>
>> You won't get any argument from me there.
>
>[VAXMAN, again: much of what you say is true. However . . . ]
>
>First of all, it's all too easy to take the good for granted. When
>something good happens, we hardly take notice and then get on with our
>lives. When something bad happens it takes time and effort to deal
>with and causes pain and what not. Thus it make a far more memorably
>impression on us. Therefore, it takes some effort to recall the good.
>
>One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
>reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
>1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
>Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
>You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
>difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
>viewing Manhattan from afar.

By taking those industrial plants that produced clear out of the country.
A relocation of the polution elsewhere on the planet does not, IMO, help
the overall environment.


>> Government does not produce food.
>
>Gov't keeps the food supply safe. Would you eat at a restaurant that
>failed inspection or didn't even have an inspection? And would you
>trust any company that claimed its product was "organic" without some
>kind of central authoritative, enforceable definition? (Not that
>organic foods are necessarily healthier. Truth in labeling is what I'm
>getting at here.)

But the gov't does not produce food.  My son is going to college for 
culinary and has worked several country club dining facilities as well
as fast and menu restaurants.  Don't fool yourself that a "satisfactory"
inspection means your food is any better.  "Organic" is a brainwash to
charge more.  


>> Government does not build houses.
>
>Gov't establishes code to keep buildings safe. I'm not sure about FL,
>but did home builders voluntarily build much stronger buildings after
>Hurricane Andrew? I doubt it. This paid off big time when Hurricane
>Wilma struck FL.

In the proNJ, the gov't establishes codes to see to it that more and more
fees can be tacked on the the building and sale of a home.  No single one
makes the home better IMHO.  Just more expensive and more dollar fodder in
the pigs trough in Trenton.


>> Government does not cure disease.
>
>The gov't has all children injected with vaccines to prevent them from
>getting all sorts of horrible ills, thereby obviating the need to come
>up with cures (which would be far more expensive, I think).

The government only made a mandate.  The pharma developed these vaccines.

When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma 
and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
end of the world.

 
>> Government *DOES* tax the dead.
>
>The dead don't own anything, and therefore cannot be taxed. Your sig
>says something about making rich people poor. Isn't this what the
>estate tax does in part? It is to prevent income inequality from
>getting far worse than it is now.

Right.  That's way, after all the taxes from my grandmother's death, a
whole 4 cents was left to split between my mother, 2 sisters and me. 
Of course, the gov't won't issue me a check for 1 cent to reimburse the
taxed estate so I was even cheated out of my 1 cent inheritance by the
gov't.


>> Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.
>
>There's plenty of blame to go around to plenty of parties on this one.

I can name 2 parties!


>Here's some stuff that gov't does well:
>
>What the gov't does right:
>
>Creating a environment (legal and monetary) in which businesses and
>individuals can succeed. This, and high-quality universities, is what
>draws people from around the world to the U.S. in numbers that exceeds
>that of all other countries. (This is long-term average; obviously
>gov't screws things up too, as in the current Financial Debacle.)

I don't know what rock you've been under but take a look about and that
"environment" they've created has left millions withoiut employment and
more and more all the time.


>Weights and measures, and standards:
>
>SI: Governments (primarily the U.S. and France, I believe) determine
>the SI standards for the world. NIST continually develops increasingly
>better technology and standards. For example, the meter has gone
>through the following definitions: 1/10000000th of the distance from
>the North Pole to the Equator, the distance between two marks on a
>platinum-iridium bar in Paris, the length of a certain number of
>wavelengths of light emitted by a certain atomic transition of
>Krypton-86. And presently -- and amazingly -- it is based on the
>distance light travels in one second, or equivalently, the speed of
>light. This means that the speed of light is now a fixed number whose
>accuracy is determined by the atomic clocks. This means that distance
>is measured by clocks! (Of course, that's not really new: How far is
>that place? About 20 minutes.)

Give me a break.  We really need a huge fucking bureaucracy for this?


>TIME: The U.S., along with other countries, sets the time standard for
>the world. The time is incredibly precise and accurate. And there is a
>lot more than most people realize to get the time right. There are 3
>versions of Universal Time, UT1 (which is corrected for polar wobble)
>being the most important. Then there are International Atomic Time
>(TAI); Ephemeris Time; and Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), which is
>the reference for the civil time we all go by; and yet more
>timescales, mostly peculiar to narrow interests.

Yup.  Leave it to Congress to fuck up time.



>It takes very precise measurements of stars and such to get the time
>right. And the earth is slowly slowing down due to tidal friction (the
>tides being caused by the Sun and Moon). Also, the Earth's rotation
>rate varies very slightly due to wobble and mass shifts. And since the
>Earth is rotating slower than it has in the past, an occasional leap
>second has to be added to UTC to allow the Earth to "catch up" to TAI,
>which doesn't slow down with time. (TIA is the average of member
>atomic clocks around the world. UTC is offset from TIA by a integral
>number of seconds.)

I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
plate is empty.


>You can verify all this on the World Wide Web. Wikipedia is a good
>place to start, esp. the article Universal Time.
>
>W&M:Enforcement of weights and measures: When you buy a can of soup
>and it says Net Wt. 15 oz., how do you know it's really 15 oz.? Would
>you like to weigh every purchase and estimate the weights of the
>containers? Would you like to measure how much gasoline you're putting
>in your car yourself? I think not. The Gov't takes care of that.

Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
NOT!


>RESEARCH: Funding basic research.
>
>FCC: keeps the air waves orderly.

And violate the 1st amendment in doing so.


>WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
>weather data.

I get mine by looking outside.



>HEALTH AND SAFETY:
>
>Greatly reducing air and water pollution.

No, just moving it to third world countries.


>Providing safe water supplies.

Safe? Eh.  Come drink some of the safe but smelly swill that effluxes at
my faucet.  Yummy shitty^H^H^H^H^H^Hcity water.


>Inspections to keep the food supply healthy.
>
>restaurant health inspections

See above.



>Elevator inspections.

Take the stairs.... does your great gov't inspect those too?


>Other inspections.
>
>Laws against fraud for all sorts of things, including food labeling
>(Kosher, organic, light, fat-free, etc.).

Spend time in court and see if the "law" give a flying fuck about the
little guy.  The courts are corrupt.  Buy your way though it.  If the
media was doing their job and monitoring the gov't and the courts, the
abuses we are all subjected to would not be as pervasive.  But, I fear
that the news agencies today are little more than Pravda.


>Code: Electrical codes, building codes, construction codes,
>occupational safety, etc.

I'm not even going to waste my time.  More BS to bolster unions is all 
that is.


>Satellites: cable news channels didn't put them up -- NASA did. There
>are numerous other satellites: GPS, Landsat, spy, scientific, weather,
>etc. The reader can make a list.

I worked for GE AstroSpace for a stint.  Those satellites were paid for
by the entities that wanted them... and they paid dear for them.  They,
whomever wanted these, paid NASA to get them into space.  When others,
such as the EU Space Agency had a lauch vehicle, could offer space for
less, these satellites when up with those groups.


>Which of the above would you like to eliminate?

Government.


>You would prefer the Mafia?

We have that already.  Government.

Pete Sinfield said it best in "Epitaph"...

Between the iron gates of fate,
The seeds of time were sown,
And watered by the deeds of those
Who know and who are known;
Knowledge is a deadly friend
When no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see
Is in the hands of fools.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 12:27:49 PM
In article <stOdnSbzMvennzfWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
>>> i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>>>>> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
>>> want
>>>>>> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
>>> he
>>>>>> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>>>>> Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
>>>>> without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
>>>>> for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
>>>>> the president and the president then decides whether to include the
>>>>> amendment or not.
>>>>> Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
>>>>> own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
>>>>> the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
>>>>> debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
>>>>> congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>>>> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
>>>> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
>>>> pork? =A0
>>>>
>>>> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
>>>> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
>>>> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>>> VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
>>> goes.
>>>
>>> Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?
>> 
>> You asked it?  You could answer it.  The answer should be as plain as the
>> nose on your face.  It's just another scheme to derail the representative
>> voting process.
>> 
>> 
>>>> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
>>>> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
>>>> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
>>>> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
>>>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>>> More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.
>> 
>> Are they?
>> 
>> People no longer want freedom?  Privacy from government intervention?
>> 
>> 
>>>> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
>>>> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
>>>> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>> 
>> I pay for my medicines.  I work wholy to suvive and, when others "steal"
>> my money through taxes or court edict, it causes ME the loss of life and 
>> of liberty and of persuit of happiness.
>> 
>
>Taxes are not "theft".  They are the natural result of people demanding 
>that government do something.  Allowing and/or requiring that government 
>"do something" allows/requires that government collect taxes to pay for 
>it.  Needless to say, having government do something is probably the 
>most expensive way to do it.

Gov't is doing things the people have NOT asked it to do.  When the gov't,
at least one designated as a representative gov't, does not do the will of
the people, then its use of and collection of money is theft.

C'mon.  You're here in the proNJ.  Used to be that the gov't's purpose
was to build and maintain roads (from roman times, the fucntion of the
gov't so aptly pointed out in another post here) and yet, the roads are
shit.  My money and yours is going into the pockets of special interests,
political parties, nepotic hires and appointees, and other "fat-headed"
schemes and not into the public good for which it should be used.  Taxes
collected from the masses are to work for the masses; not the few.  This
"for the few" is the way it worked in Soviet Russia and is now in Soviet
America.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 12:47:26 PM
In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?

I pay all my own bills.  And I would be very happy if everyone else
would do the same.  And before people start crying about those poor
people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
left home at 17, days after graduating from high school.  I had what
I carried in my suitcase.  I worked to get where I am today and I
would really appreciate it if others would just do the same.  And,
no, you didn't pay for my education either.  I have never attended
a public school or ridden on a schoolbus.  And, no, I did not come
from a rich family.  My father didn't go to high school and didn't
get his GED until long after I was out of the house.  He worked in
factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
to pay our way.  I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
the same. 

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/24/2010 12:59:27 PM
In article <113b22ef-ff52-4160-9a03-d06bec44b67d@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
> reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
> 1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
> Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
> You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
> difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
> viewing Manhattan from afar.

   Having lived in the armpit in the 70's, that's something I gotta see.
   Standing in the middle of the hight school football practivce field, 
   I could almost see down to the horizon.  Above the tree line, 360
   degrees around, a brown haze roughtly the same angular height as the
   trees.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 1:07:53 PM
In article <00A9AEB4.B110192E@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> C'mon.  You're here in the proNJ.  Used to be that the gov't's purpose
> was to build and maintain roads (from roman times, the fucntion of the
> gov't so aptly pointed out in another post here) and yet, the roads are
> shit.

   So maybe the roads should be private, like the private toll road in
   Virginia, that only keeps its head above water via public subsidies?

   Perhaps the cost of travel should be like the NJ Turnpike, but about
   100 times more, and for every street?

0
koehler
3/24/2010 1:27:42 PM
In article <00A9AEB2.49505743@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma 
> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> end of the world.

   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
   but would you want your kid to be one of them?
 
> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> plate is empty.

   You think wrong.  It's a lot harder than you estimate.  And that 
   dinner plate might be empty if not for the advances in food
   production made possible through an advanced society, doing things
   like the basic research that finds the data needed for those
   advances.

   As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of places in this world
   where dinner plates are not full.

   And would your dinner plate be full if you didn't have a job that
   links directly back to government funded research in computing?
   Or would your job opportunities have been more along the line of
   migrant farmer if you grew up in a place that didn't invest in
   it's future?

> 
> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
> NOT!

   The amonut of tax money you personnaly loose on making sure Campbell's
   measurements are accurate would not pay for that measuring cup.

> 
> I get mine by looking outside.

   Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
   ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
   of people out of the way before the city was drowned.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 1:27:42 PM
In article <113b22ef-ff52-4160-9a03-d06bec44b67d@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:

> Satellites: cable news channels didn't put them up -- NASA did. There
> are numerous other satellites: GPS, Landsat, spy, scientific, weather,
> etc. The reader can make a list.

   Much of the general public thinks NASA should stop putting up weather 
   satellites now, since we have The Weather Channel.

   At least the majority still thinks Sarah Palin is not ready for the
   White House.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 1:27:43 PM
In article <80uglfFrh6U2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> 
>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
>I pay all my own bills.  And I would be very happy if everyone else
>would do the same.  And before people start crying about those poor
>people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>left home at 17, days after graduating from high school.  I had what
>I carried in my suitcase.  I worked to get where I am today and I
>would really appreciate it if others would just do the same.  And,
>no, you didn't pay for my education either.  I have never attended
>a public school or ridden on a schoolbus.  And, no, I did not come
>from a rich family.  My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>get his GED until long after I was out of the house.  He worked in
>factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>to pay our way.  I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>the same. 

Hear, Hear!  Bill!  Bravo!

I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
people on farms, to cutting lawns, to newspaper delivery, etc., etc.  The
local town folks would help one out through church functions or just plain
old Pennsylvania Dutch hospitality, but they wouldn't allow such people to
remain a perpertual burden on the community.  My grand parents would use
the old adage, "the good lord helps those who help themselves."  I never
saw any help from "him" but those who worked hard made their way.  I too
pay my own bills.  I would never accept "gov't" money and I'd prefer they
not take mine as theirs too.

Unlike Bill, I did go to a public school; however, I paid MY way through
college.  It pissed me off when I was accused of having to steal another's
intellectual efforts because I wasn't able to think on my own.  That just
completely derided the hardwork and time I put into my college education
and career since.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 2:48:18 PM
In article <vo+glyGlDsMY@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9AEB4.B110192E@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
>> C'mon.  You're here in the proNJ.  Used to be that the gov't's purpose
>> was to build and maintain roads (from roman times, the fucntion of the
>> gov't so aptly pointed out in another post here) and yet, the roads are
>> shit.
>
>   So maybe the roads should be private, like the private toll road in
>   Virginia, that only keeps its head above water via public subsidies?
>
>   Perhaps the cost of travel should be like the NJ Turnpike, but about
>   100 times more, and for every street?

The money exists here for the roads... it's just been channels into
other pathways like up politicians buttholes for their own personal
feeding frenzies.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 3:07:53 PM
In article <tjZqiY$m7BiP@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9AEB2.49505743@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma 
>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
>> end of the world.
>
>   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>   but would you want your kid to be one of them?

More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't 
they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
right to life too?  Yeah, right...


 
>> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
>> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
>> plate is empty.
>
>   You think wrong.  It's a lot harder than you estimate.  And that 
>   dinner plate might be empty if not for the advances in food
>   production made possible through an advanced society, doing things
>   like the basic research that finds the data needed for those
>   advances.

Advances in modern society yes, but this has nothing to do with your
gov't.  We have vastly superior communications and electronics.  None
of which have come from the gov't -- save for, of course, the internet
that Al (moron) Gore invented.



>   As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of places in this world
>   where dinner plates are not full.

@my house.



>   And would your dinner plate be full if you didn't have a job that
>   links directly back to government funded research in computing?
>   Or would your job opportunities have been more along the line of
>   migrant farmer if you grew up in a place that didn't invest in
>   it's future?

I left the government because I could not, with clear conscience, be
a party to the waste, graft, mismanagement, and misappropriations of
moneys that I saw therein.  It didn't change their ways but I sleep
just the slightest bit better at night not being witness to it.



>> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
>> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
>> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
>> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
>> NOT!
>
>   The amonut of tax money you personnaly loose on making sure Campbell's
>   measurements are accurate would not pay for that measuring cup.

You have the poop on where my tax dollars went?  I'd love to track all
the great deeds that my dollars are doing for my fellow citizen.  Yeah,
right...



>> 
>> I get mine by looking outside.
>
>   Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
>   ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
>   of people out of the way before the city was drowned.

This is the same gov't that built the levies that pumped the basin dry
so that New Orleans could move and rid itself of poor, disenfranchised
blacks to populate this accident waiting to happen?  I'm _so_ proud of 
us!  Yeah, right....

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/24/2010 3:07:53 PM
In article <00A9AEC9.A8FFFF8B@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> The money exists here for the roads... it's just been channels into
> other pathways like up politicians buttholes for their own personal
> feeding frenzies.

   AS with any crime, follow the money.  Yes, roadway contracts can be
   and are screwed up in many cases.  Yes, politicians make to damn
   much for themselves.  But that's not where most of the money goes
   and if we could clean up all the waste it wouldn't change our tax
   bills 10%.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 6:28:25 PM
In article <00A9AEC9.14846F0E@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't 
> they addressed that?

   Yes, there's big money on diabestics.  There's also no cure.  Your
   tax dollars pay for a lot of the research in that area, would you
   rather it stop?
 
> Advances in modern society yes, but this has nothing to do with your
> gov't.  We have vastly superior communications and electronics.  None
> of which have come from the gov't -- save for, of course, the internet
> that Al (moron) Gore invented.

   DARPA funds, tax dollars, got networking off the ground.  It expanded
   when non-DOD agencies wanted to use it, too.  Then later, it became
   comercially viable.

   And I don't care which politicians think they can take the credit
   for it.

> I left the government because I could not, with clear conscience, be
> a party to the waste, graft, mismanagement, and misappropriations of
> moneys that I saw therein.  It didn't change their ways but I sleep
> just the slightest bit better at night not being witness to it.

   Don't you still do government contacts?

   It's starting to sound like you want better roads, but you don't want
   to pay taxes to get them.

   We've met.  You seem like a nice guy.  And a lot of governement work
   is really screwed up.  But if the government hadn't funded a lot of 
   research, your medical condition would probably be terminal.

   And I don't think that would be a better way.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 6:28:25 PM
In article <00A9AEC6.546BA6E3@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
> people on farms, to cutting lawns, to newspaper delivery, etc., etc.  The
> local town folks would help one out through church functions or just plain
> old Pennsylvania Dutch hospitality, but they wouldn't allow such people to
> remain a perpertual burden on the community.

   Opporunities you might not have had if you grew up in Brooklin.

   I worked damn hard on my grandfathers' farm for damn little money,
   but I recognise it as an opportunity few have.

> 
> Unlike Bill, I did go to a public school; however, I paid MY way through
> college.

   Do you think your tuition actually paid the cost of that education?
   I know (first hand), that New Jersey spends less money on education
   than most states, but I never believed that the $300/semester tution
   I paid MYself covered the cost.

0
koehler
3/24/2010 6:28:25 PM
In article <7UD$aIc0XRxl@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <00A9AEC6.546BA6E3@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> 
>> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
>> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
>> people on farms, to cutting lawns, to newspaper delivery, etc., etc.  The
>> local town folks would help one out through church functions or just plain
>> old Pennsylvania Dutch hospitality, but they wouldn't allow such people to
>> remain a perpertual burden on the community.
> 
>    Opporunities you might not have had if you grew up in Brooklin.
> 
>    I worked damn hard on my grandfathers' farm for damn little money,
>    but I recognise it as an opportunity few have.
> 
>> 
>> Unlike Bill, I did go to a public school; however, I paid MY way through
>> college.
> 
>    Do you think your tuition actually paid the cost of that education?
>    I know (first hand), that New Jersey spends less money on education
>    than most states, but I never believed that the $300/semester tution
>    I paid MYself covered the cost.

Depends on the school, I guess.  If you went to a state run school then
it was welfare just like the public school system.  But there are private
Universities where people pay the tab themselves.  I work at a school
and I can assure you the only government support here is thru the ROTC
program and that costs the University, too, so how much we actually get
from the government is arguable.  My guess is it is a wash.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/24/2010 6:47:46 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66532@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> 	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> 
> I pay all my own bills.  And I would be very happy if everyone else
> would do the same.  And before people start crying about those poor
> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school.  I had what
> I carried in my suitcase.  I worked to get where I am today and I
> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same.  And,
> no, you didn't pay for my education either.  I have never attended
> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus.  And, no, I did not come
> from a rich family.  My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> get his GED until long after I was out of the house.  He worked in
> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> to pay our way.  I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> the same. 
> 

Same here.  My father only had an eighth grade education and worked as a 
painter and I knew then that he could never afford my college education.
So I worked hard for my education and took no grants or handouts.
0
GreyCloud
3/24/2010 8:14:18 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> But the gov't does not produce food. 

The WTO disagrees with this. The extreme subsidies the government gives
to wheat (and cotton) farmers are very disruptive to world farming. (the
europeans are also in that boat). By granting those extreme subsidies,
it results in overproduction of these and thus lower world prices for
them. Because of this, less efficient farmers in africa are unable to
compete against USA and european grains being dumped at low price in
their markets and thus their farming falters.


> The government only made a mandate.  The pharma developed these vaccines.

Governments have the ability to steer the economy in a direction and
help industries it feels are strategic to the country. This is why, for
instance, Boeing gets so much "help" from the USA government via various
agencies such as NASA and the military.

A lot of the R&D for Boeing's new 787 for instance was sponsored by NASA
which commissions Boeing to study the feasability of building a
commercial airliner with composite fuselage.

The help granted to the car industry is another example. Under the
previous administration, attempts to increase air quality standards were
constantly blocked by the president and his croonies to protect the car
industry who didn't want to spend extra money to improve air quality and
fuel efficiency standards.  (look what that got them when the price of
oil went up).


> I don't know what rock you've been under but take a look about and that
> "environment" they've created has left millions withoiut employment and
> more and more all the time.

This is the result of the USA having a core cost of living that is way
too high, resulting in wage demands that make it hard for USA
manufacturers to compete in a worldwide economy. It worked when the USA
had near monopoly on manufacturing. But as Japan, Taiwan and now China
developped, more and more of manufacturing went offshore.

To regain manufacturing, you either have to develop highly automated
factiries that require little manpower (and thus don't generate many
jobs), or have the people accept lower wages.




>>Weights and measures, and standards:

> Give me a break.  We really need a huge fucking bureaucracy for this?

Actually, most fo the workd measures are done by the French. (France).
http://www.bipm.org/

NIST does participate but it also needs to be the keeper of the old
measures still used by the USA.

While it may not seem so, there have been some significant changes to
the definitions of measures over time.  For instance, there is now a
fixed and precise relationship between a kilometre and a nautical mile
and this had been fine tuned when the circumference of the earth was
calculated with greater precision.  (1 nautical mile was defined as 1
minute (degrees) of travel along the equator 60 minutes * 360 degrees =
21600 nautical miles around the equator.

The increase precisions and definitions were required when systems such
as GPS were developped to allow precise math rules on
conversion/calculation of units.

> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> plate is empty.

Precise time is REQUIRED not only by GPS systems, but also by mobile
phone systems and plenty of other stuff.  (especially the proprietary
CDMA technology used by Verizon/Sprint).


> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
> NOT!


If you guys went metric you wouldn't have to continue to have a huge
agency to continue to maintain that old ounces standard :-)

If there was no such agency, Campbells would get away with filling its
cans labeled as "15 ounces" with only 13 ounces and there is nothing you
could do about it because "ounces" would be meaningless. Same for gas
stations.  And manufacturers of those measuring cups would  e able to
sell you uncalibrated ones that so inaccurate as to be useless. Your son
should appreciate having precise measuring cups when preparing his
pastries etc.

>>WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
>>weather data.
> 
> I get mine by looking outside.

Oh, tell that to people who live in areas with severe weather. The
ability to predict severe weather such as cyclones/hurricanes has saves
probably hundreds of thousands of lives over the years because smart
people prepare for such events.

CLIMATE predictions also allow cities to plam their snow removal budgets
because they see the average snowfall each year, and the number of
snowfalls that exceed their standard for snow removal.

Farmers also know how much artificial irrigation they need because there
is no rain predicted for the next X days. And that puts food in your plate.



>>Greatly reducing air and water pollution.
> 
> No, just moving it to third world countries.

Despite the first 8 years of this century having been an environmental
setback in the USA (with ripple effects in the rest fo the world because
of countries like China following the lead of a pro-pollution president,
the USA still has made huge progress in producing less pollution per
unit of energy produced. And it has also stopped blatant dumping of
terrible cheminals into the ground. (the movie "Erin Brokovich" shows
how this aspect has evolved since those days when corporations dumped
dangerous chemicals into the ground and claimed it was perfectly safe).

> Safe? Eh.  Come drink some of the safe but smelly swill that effluxes at
> my faucet.  Yummy shitty^H^H^H^H^H^Hcity water.

Isn't your house equipped to provide Guiness on all your taps in the
house ? :-) :-) :-)

> whomever wanted these, paid NASA to get them into space.  When others,
> such as the EU Space Agency had a lauch vehicle, could offer space for
> less, these satellites when up with those groups.

After the Challenger accident, NASA was strictly forbidden to launch
commercial payloads into space. This went to Boeing and others. And of
course, in a global economy, many USA satellites are now launched on
Soyuz spacecraft from Russia because that is cheaper and more available.
Yes, lauched from the very launch site that was ultra secret back in the
cold war days, now launching USA commercial satellites !

0
JF
3/24/2010 8:21:41 PM
Bob Koehler wrote:

>    At least the majority still thinks Sarah Palin is not ready for the
>    White House.

But what about LaCarly in Kalifornia ? Will she get elected ?

BTW, for all her failings in business, LaCarly is on record as saying
that her party needs to be less restrictive and more encompassing. (aka:
less extremist to the right). In that respect, she is quite different
from the pitbull with makeup that is Sara Palin. Put the two together,
and it would make for interesting cat fight. And I think that LaCarly
would win a debate against Palin. Not sure about popularity contest though.


I could see LaCarly getting elected, and then be a candidate for party
leadership, just so she will have her 15 minutes of fame and send the
message across that the party can't win with a right wing extremist
pitbull at the helm.


People criticised Bush Jr for being stupid and being puppetted by the
croonies around him. Sara Palin would make Bush look intelligent.



0
JF
3/24/2010 8:30:02 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
> people on farms, 

You make it sound like you came from Amish country...  Did Digital ever
produce a crank operated VAX ?

:-) :-)
0
JF
3/24/2010 8:35:22 PM
On Mar 24, 8:21=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > But the gov't does not produce food.
>
> The WTO disagrees with this. The extreme subsidies the government gives
> to wheat (and cotton) farmers are very disruptive to world farming. (the
> europeans are also in that boat). By granting those extreme subsidies,
> it results in overproduction of these and thus lower world prices for
> them. Because of this, less efficient farmers in africa are unable to
> compete against USA and european grains being dumped at low price in
> their markets and thus their farming falters.
>
> > The government only made a mandate. =A0The pharma developed these vacci=
nes.
>
> Governments have the ability to steer the economy in a direction and
> help industries it feels are strategic to the country. This is why, for
> instance, Boeing gets so much "help" from the USA government via various
> agencies such as NASA and the military.
>
> A lot of the R&D for Boeing's new 787 for instance was sponsored by NASA
> which commissions Boeing to study the feasability of building a
> commercial airliner with composite fuselage.
>
> The help granted to the car industry is another example. Under the
> previous administration, attempts to increase air quality standards were
> constantly blocked by the president and his croonies to protect the car
> industry who didn't want to spend extra money to improve air quality and
> fuel efficiency standards. =A0(look what that got them when the price of
> oil went up).
>
> > I don't know what rock you've been under but take a look about and that
> > "environment" they've created has left millions withoiut employment and
> > more and more all the time.
>
> This is the result of the USA having a core cost of living that is way
> too high, resulting in wage demands that make it hard for USA
> manufacturers to compete in a worldwide economy. It worked when the USA
> had near monopoly on manufacturing. But as Japan, Taiwan and now China
> developped, more and more of manufacturing went offshore.
>
> To regain manufacturing, you either have to develop highly automated
> factiries that require little manpower (and thus don't generate many
> jobs), or have the people accept lower wages.
>
> >>Weights and measures, and standards:
> > Give me a break. =A0We really need a huge fucking bureaucracy for this?
>
> Actually, most fo the workd measures are done by the French. (France).htt=
p://www.bipm.org/
>
> NIST does participate but it also needs to be the keeper of the old
> measures still used by the USA.
>
> While it may not seem so, there have been some significant changes to
> the definitions of measures over time. =A0For instance, there is now a
> fixed and precise relationship between a kilometre and a nautical mile
> and this had been fine tuned when the circumference of the earth was
> calculated with greater precision. =A0(1 nautical mile was defined as 1
> minute (degrees) of travel along the equator 60 minutes * 360 degrees =3D
> 21600 nautical miles around the equator.
>
> The increase precisions and definitions were required when systems such
> as GPS were developped to allow precise math rules on
> conversion/calculation of units.
>
> > I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this. =A0And, if
> > the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> > plate is empty.
>
> Precise time is REQUIRED not only by GPS systems, but also by mobile
> phone systems and plenty of other stuff. =A0(especially the proprietary
> CDMA technology used by Verizon/Sprint).
>
> > Wow. =A0Let me see. =A0I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus=
 out
> > of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> > can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz. =A0or I could just buy a 99
> > cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision=
..
> > NOT!
>
> If you guys went metric you wouldn't have to continue to have a huge
> agency to continue to maintain that old ounces standard :-)
>
> If there was no such agency, Campbells would get away with filling its
> cans labeled as "15 ounces" with only 13 ounces and there is nothing you
> could do about it because "ounces" would be meaningless. Same for gas
> stations. =A0And manufacturers of those measuring cups would =A0e able to
> sell you uncalibrated ones that so inaccurate as to be useless. Your son
> should appreciate having precise measuring cups when preparing his
> pastries etc.
>
> >>WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
> >>weather data.
>
> > I get mine by looking outside.
>
> Oh, tell that to people who live in areas with severe weather. The
> ability to predict severe weather such as cyclones/hurricanes has saves
> probably hundreds of thousands of lives over the years because smart
> people prepare for such events.
>
> CLIMATE predictions also allow cities to plam their snow removal budgets
> because they see the average snowfall each year, and the number of
> snowfalls that exceed their standard for snow removal.
>
> Farmers also know how much artificial irrigation they need because there
> is no rain predicted for the next X days. And that puts food in your plat=
e.
>
> >>Greatly reducing air and water pollution.
>
> > No, just moving it to third world countries.
>
> Despite the first 8 years of this century having been an environmental
> setback in the USA (with ripple effects in the rest fo the world because
> of countries like China following the lead of a pro-pollution president,
> the USA still has made huge progress in producing less pollution per
> unit of energy produced. And it has also stopped blatant dumping of
> terrible cheminals into the ground. (the movie "Erin Brokovich" shows
> how this aspect has evolved since those days when corporations dumped
> dangerous chemicals into the ground and claimed it was perfectly safe).
>
> > Safe? Eh. =A0Come drink some of the safe but smelly swill that effluxes=
 at
> > my faucet. =A0Yummy shitty^H^H^H^H^H^Hcity water.
>
> Isn't your house equipped to provide Guiness on all your taps in the
> house ? :-) :-) :-)
>
> > whomever wanted these, paid NASA to get them into space. =A0When others=
,
> > such as the EU Space Agency had a lauch vehicle, could offer space for
> > less, these satellites when up with those groups.
>
> After the Challenger accident, NASA was strictly forbidden to launch
> commercial payloads into space. This went to Boeing and others. And of
> course, in a global economy, many USA satellites are now launched on
> Soyuz spacecraft from Russia because that is cheaper and more available.
> Yes, lauched from the very launch site that was ultra secret back in the
> cold war days, now launching USA commercial satellites !

Challenger wasn't an accident. Challenger was an inevitable result of
letting bean counters (I refuse to call them "managers") take over
from engineers.

"It appears that there are enormous differences of opinion as to the
probability of a failure with loss of vehicle and of human life. The
estimates range from roughly 1 in 100 to 1 in 100,000. The higher
figures come from the working engineers, and the very low figures from
management. What are the causes and consequences of this lack of
agreement? Since 1 part in 100,000 would imply that one could put a
Shuttle up each day for 300 years expecting to lose only one, we could
properly ask "What is the cause of management's fantastic faith in the
machinery?
<huge snip>
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled."

R.P. Feynman
http://history.nasa.gov/rogersrep/v2appf.htm
0
John
3/24/2010 8:50:25 PM
In article <4baa778b$0$9208$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
>> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
>> people on farms, 
> 
> You make it sound like you came from Amish country...  Did Digital ever
> produce a crank operated VAX ?
> 
>:-) :-)

Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).  You
will find no one more dedidcated to their convictions and unlike so many
we have to deal with today, perfectly willing to live their life and not
insist that you live it as well.  I am not Amish either, but I have lived
among them and feel I know them better than most people do.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/24/2010 8:59:56 PM
John Wallace wrote:

> Challenger wasn't an accident. Challenger was an inevitable result of
> letting bean counters (I refuse to call them "managers") take over
> from engineers.

I do not disagree with the analysis. But in the historical "big
picture", it remains an accident. (whether "error in judgement" or
"failure of an o-ring", it was not a premeditated event, it was gross
negligence on the part of managers).

Such things could happen in private industry just as well. There have
been many train derailments because the railways thought they would save
money by reducing track/bridge maintenance for instance.

And for all its flaws, the FAA did realise that for aviation, one had to
be much less foregiving than for railways that the rules of design,
operation and maintenance for commercial airliners are very strict, and
this is where governments (especially the USA which acts as a leader in
the world for aviation regulation) have saved lives.

Yes, the FAA has a lot of criticism of not being strict enough and not
putting into law many of the recommendations made by the NTSB and other
world organisations because airlinies complain it would cost too much to
implement.
0
JF
3/24/2010 9:07:17 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).

Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do not
"make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
things is perspective.

What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a buggy,
I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
turn heads, as if I didn't exist.
0
JF
3/24/2010 9:11:50 PM
In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
> 
> Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do not
> "make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
> the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
> things is perspective.
> 
> What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a buggy,
> I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
> turn heads, as if I didn't exist.

Been to NYC lately?  Or Toronto?  Or Paris?

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/24/2010 9:26:15 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> John Wallace wrote:
> 
>> Challenger wasn't an accident. Challenger was an inevitable result of
>> letting bean counters (I refuse to call them "managers") take over
>> from engineers.
> 
> I do not disagree with the analysis. But in the historical "big
> picture", it remains an accident. (whether "error in judgement" or
> "failure of an o-ring", it was not a premeditated event, it was gross
> negligence on the part of managers).
> 
> Such things could happen in private industry just as well. There have
> been many train derailments because the railways thought they would save
> money by reducing track/bridge maintenance for instance.
> 
> And for all its flaws, the FAA did realise that for aviation, one had to
> be much less foregiving than for railways that the rules of design,
> operation and maintenance for commercial airliners are very strict, and
> this is where governments (especially the USA which acts as a leader in
> the world for aviation regulation) have saved lives.
> 
> Yes, the FAA has a lot of criticism of not being strict enough and not
> putting into law many of the recommendations made by the NTSB and other
> world organizations because airlines complain it would cost too much to
> implement.

If you're in business you have to look at both the costs and the 
benefits.  The aircraft industry and the air lines could surely make the 
  aircraft and operations safer but what of the costs?  If the cost of a 
round trip PHL-LAX with zero risk is $15,000 US, how many will be able 
to afford it?  Of those able, how many would be willing?

As matters now stand your trip from home to the airport is far more 
likely to get you killed than your flight.
0
Richard
3/24/2010 9:33:24 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
> 	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
>>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
>> Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do not
>> "make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
>> the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
>> things is perspective.
>>
>> What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a buggy,
>> I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
>> turn heads, as if I didn't exist.
> 
> Been to NYC lately?  Or Toronto?  Or Paris?
> 
> bill
> 

Good point!  I don't know about Toronto or Paris but NYC, PHL and other 
American cities are anything but safe!  The available evidence strongly 
suggests that over crowded people behave every bit as badly as over 
crowded rats!
0
Richard
3/24/2010 9:44:57 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> Good point!  I don't know about Toronto or Paris but NYC, PHL and other 
> American cities are anything but safe!  The available evidence strongly 
> suggests that over crowded people behave every bit as badly as over 
> crowded rats!

In a large city, you do not expect people to say hello and/or wave at
you when you do the same. If it happens, you notice and are pleasently
surprised, if it doesn't happen, you think nothing of it.

But in a rural area, if you slowly overtake a vehicle that is open air,
(and you are on a bike), if you say hello or wave, you expect some kind
of communication from them. You are negatively surprised when the
occupants of the other vehicle don't even acknowledge with a node of
their head that you were nice and said hello.
0
JF
3/24/2010 11:16:31 PM
On Mar 24, 8:03 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
> >i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> >> >Bob Koehler wrote:
>
> >> >> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
> > want
> >> >> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
> >he
> >> >> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>
> >> >Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
> >> >without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
> >> >for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> >> >the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> >> >amendment or not.
>
> >> >Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
> >> >own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
> >> >the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
> >> >debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
> >> >congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>
> >> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
> >> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
> >> pork? =A0
>
> >> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
> >> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
> >> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>
> >VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
> >goes.
>
> >Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?
>
> You asked it?  You could answer it.  The answer should be as plain as the
> nose on your face.  It's just another scheme to derail the representative
> voting process.

You missed the point. Relax, dude. The point is that voting does
matter. And California recently outlawed gerrymandering.

>
> >> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
> >> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
> >> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
> >> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
> >> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> >More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.
>
> Are they?

I explained this in another post.

>
> People no longer want freedom?  Privacy from government intervention?

See my other post.

>
> >> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
> >> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
> >> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> >Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> >insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> I pay for my medicines.  I work wholy to suvive and, when others "steal"
> my money through taxes or court edict, it causes ME the loss of life and
> of liberty and of persuit of happiness.

I find this difficult to believe. I certainly couldn't afford the
actual price of all my medicines.

Yes, some people get screwed; I never said otherwise. All I said is
that there's a lot that the gov't does that is good. Don't want to pay
taxes? You don't want police protection? Fire? You don't want safe
vaccines for your kids? Vaccines are not a big money-maker for pharma.
You're lucky you were vaccinated. You have to pay for these things. If
it weren't for govt-sponsered research you might well be dead for lack
of medicines. But I don't know your exact situation, though you've
described it before, so I have some idea.

Hey! I pay property taxes and I don't even have kids! So those who
have kids should be grateful I'm chipping in. And hey, if the
alternative is more ignoramuses on the street, I'll continue to chip
in.

Relax. It's not *I* who am collecting taxes from you, issuing unfair
court edicts, and such.

One example doesn't prove a rule. Example: The Space Shuttle blew up!
I guess they all blow up.

/relax

OK, I once (or twice!) went ballistic over EDT vs. EVE. . . . So don't
relax. Never mind.

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

Yes, the estate, uh, "death tax" attempts to do this.

AEF
0
Alan
3/24/2010 11:23:09 PM
In article <4baa778b$0$9208$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote:
[...]
>You make it sound like you came from Amish country...  Did Digital ever
>produce a crank operated VAX ?

Sometimes, i was cranky when operating Vaxen at the university...
:-)
[...]
0
BRAD
3/24/2010 11:26:03 PM
On Mar 24, 9:13 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <113b22ef-ff52-4160-9a03-d06bec44b...@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> >> >As long as people expect government to feed the hungry, house the
> >> >homeless, heal the sick, comfort the dying, bury the dead, etc. we are,
> >> >and will remain, in deep trouble!
>
> >> You won't get any argument from me there.
>
> >[VAXMAN, again: much of what you say is true. However . . . ]
>
> >First of all, it's all too easy to take the good for granted. When
> >something good happens, we hardly take notice and then get on with our
> >lives. When something bad happens it takes time and effort to deal
> >with and causes pain and what not. Thus it make a far more memorably
> >impression on us. Therefore, it takes some effort to recall the good.
>
> >One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
> >reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
> >1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
> >Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
> >You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
> >difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
> >viewing Manhattan from afar.
>
> By taking those industrial plants that produced clear out of the country.
> A relocation of the polution elsewhere on the planet does not, IMO, help
> the overall environment.

I believe catalytic converters had far more to do with cleaning city
air. Improved mileage helps. Scrubbers help. I am skeptical that your
claim is a significant portion of it.

>
> >> Government does not produce food.
>
> >Gov't keeps the food supply safe. Would you eat at a restaurant that
> >failed inspection or didn't even have an inspection? And would you
> >trust any company that claimed its product was "organic" without some
> >kind of central authoritative, enforceable definition? (Not that
> >organic foods are necessarily healthier. Truth in labeling is what I'm
> >getting at here.)
>
> But the gov't does not produce food.  My son is going to college for
> culinary and has worked several country club dining facilities as well
> as fast and menu restaurants.  Don't fool yourself that a "satisfactory"
> inspection means your food is any better.  "Organic" is a brainwash to
> charge more.

Do you produce food? Does GM produce food? NO. So what? Who said it is
the job of gov't to produce food? And you wouldn't want it to if it
did.

>
> >> Government does not build houses.
>
> >Gov't establishes code to keep buildings safe. I'm not sure about FL,
> >but did home builders voluntarily build much stronger buildings after
> >Hurricane Andrew? I doubt it. This paid off big time when Hurricane
> >Wilma struck FL.
>
> In the proNJ, the gov't establishes codes to see to it that more and more
> fees can be tacked on the the building and sale of a home.  No single one
> makes the home better IMHO.  Just more expensive and more dollar fodder in
> the pigs trough in Trenton.

We disagree.


>
> >> Government does not cure disease.
>
> >The gov't has all children injected with vaccines to prevent them from
> >getting all sorts of horrible ills, thereby obviating the need to come
> >up with cures (which would be far more expensive, I think).
>
> The government only made a mandate.  The pharma developed these vaccines.

Pharma has no interest in even making vaccines as they are not
profitable. Without the mandate, few would get them and the diseases
they protect against would run amok.

>
> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> end of the world.

Did you have polio? Did you have smallpox? Did you have tuberculosis?

Many die from the flu. More would if fewer got the flu shot.

There are no vaccines for AIDS, HIV. Wouldn't you like there to be?

Measles can cause complications -- even death. Just because you did
okay doesn't mean all others would.

Some people survive heart attacks. Others, don't. Stents keep people
alive. Stroke damage can be minimized in a hospital. Many with cancer
are cured through drugs (pharma), radiation treatments (leftovers from
NSF-funded research), chemotherapy.

>
> >> Government *DOES* tax the dead.
>
> >The dead don't own anything, and therefore cannot be taxed. Your sig
> >says something about making rich people poor. Isn't this what the
> >estate tax does in part? It is to prevent income inequality from
> >getting far worse than it is now.
>
> Right.  That's way, after all the taxes from my grandmother's death, a
> whole 4 cents was left to split between my mother, 2 sisters and me.
> Of course, the gov't won't issue me a check for 1 cent to reimburse the
> taxed estate so I was even cheated out of my 1 cent inheritance by the
> gov't.

You're complaining about a penny? OK. Just what taxes are these? I
thought estate taxes were only on amounts over some multiple of a
million dollars. The dead do not pay taxes. Those who inherit do, and
they are not dead. Regardless, we need some details of your case. I
cannot say any more on the matter.

>
> >> Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.
>
> >There's plenty of blame to go around to plenty of parties on this one.
>
> I can name 2 parties!
>
> >Here's some stuff that gov't does well:
>
> >What the gov't does right:
>
> >Creating a environment (legal and monetary) in which businesses and
> >individuals can succeed. This, and high-quality universities, is what
> >draws people from around the world to the U.S. in numbers that exceeds
> >that of all other countries. (This is long-term average; obviously
> >gov't screws things up too, as in the current Financial Debacle.)
>
> I don't know what rock you've been under but take a look about and that
> "environment" they've created has left millions withoiut employment and
> more and more all the time.

You'd prefer living in North Korea? Congo, where millions continue to
die in war? Haiti, which has no building codes (at least none that I
know of). You'd like Islamic radicals to cut your hands off? They do
far more cruel things than that, esp. to women.

This is paradise compared to dozens of countries.

>
> >Weights and measures, and standards:
>
> >SI: Governments (primarily the U.S. and France, I believe) determine
> >the SI standards for the world. NIST continually develops increasingly
> >better technology and standards. For example, the meter has gone
> >through the following definitions: 1/10000000th of the distance from
> >the North Pole to the Equator, the distance between two marks on a
> >platinum-iridium bar in Paris, the length of a certain number of
> >wavelengths of light emitted by a certain atomic transition of
> >Krypton-86. And presently -- and amazingly -- it is based on the
> >distance light travels in one second, or equivalently, the speed of
> >light. This means that the speed of light is now a fixed number whose
> >accuracy is determined by the atomic clocks. This means that distance
> >is measured by clocks! (Of course, that's not really new: How far is
> >that place? About 20 minutes.)
>
> Give me a break.  We really need a huge fucking bureaucracy for this?

No, just a small part of it.

>
> >TIME: The U.S., along with other countries, sets the time standard for
> >the world. The time is incredibly precise and accurate. And there is a
> >lot more than most people realize to get the time right. There are 3
> >versions of Universal Time, UT1 (which is corrected for polar wobble)
> >being the most important. Then there are International Atomic Time
> >(TAI); Ephemeris Time; and Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), which is
> >the reference for the civil time we all go by; and yet more
> >timescales, mostly peculiar to narrow interests.
>
> Yup.  Leave it to Congress to fuck up time.

What does Congress have to do with this? You prefer the pre-standard-
time days when railroads had to have a schedule fore each and every
city?  Congress only did standard time and daylight time as far as I
know.

Scientists came up with these time scales. They have different
purposes. You need not worry about it except for DST. Just like
different types of variables in computers, different languages, 8bits,
16 bits, 32-bit stuff, 64-bit stuff. Take it to IT to fuck up
programming.

>
> >It takes very precise measurements of stars and such to get the time
> >right. And the earth is slowly slowing down due to tidal friction (the
> >tides being caused by the Sun and Moon). Also, the Earth's rotation
> >rate varies very slightly due to wobble and mass shifts. And since the
> >Earth is rotating slower than it has in the past, an occasional leap
> >second has to be added to UTC to allow the Earth to "catch up" to TAI,
> >which doesn't slow down with time. (TIA is the average of member
> >atomic clocks around the world. UTC is offset from TIA by a integral
> >number of seconds.)
>
> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> plate is empty.

You also need some atomic clocks. Two people in an observatory is
totally inadequate.

>
> >You can verify all this on the World Wide Web. Wikipedia is a good
> >place to start, esp. the article Universal Time.
>
> >W&M:Enforcement of weights and measures: When you buy a can of soup
> >and it says Net Wt. 15 oz., how do you know it's really 15 oz.? Would
> >you like to weigh every purchase and estimate the weights of the
> >containers? Would you like to measure how much gasoline you're putting
> >in your car yourself? I think not. The Gov't takes care of that.
>
> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
> NOT!

Be real. This is not a serious answer. And how do you know your
measuring cup is accurate?

>
> >RESEARCH: Funding basic research.
>
> >FCC: keeps the air waves orderly.
>
> And violate the 1st amendment in doing so.

Nonsense.

>
> >WEATHER: Gathering weather data. This is where Accuweather gets its
> >weather data.
>
> I get mine by looking outside.

So did the people in Galveston, TX in 1900. They got clobbered by a
nasty hurricane. 8000 died.

>
> >HEALTH AND SAFETY:
>
> >Greatly reducing air and water pollution.
>
> No, just moving it to third world countries.

I don't buy it. There are scrubbers, catalytic converts, and who knows
what else.

>
> >Providing safe water supplies.
>
> Safe? Eh.  Come drink some of the safe but smelly swill that effluxes at
> my faucet.  Yummy shitty^H^H^H^H^H^Hcity water.

And what harm has it done you? Mine is fine. Taste and safety are not
the same.

>
> >Inspections to keep the food supply healthy.
>
> >restaurant health inspections
>
> See above.
>
> >Elevator inspections.
>
> Take the stairs.... does your great gov't inspect those too?

This is not a serious answer.

>
> >Other inspections.
>
> >Laws against fraud for all sorts of things, including food labeling
> >(Kosher, organic, light, fat-free, etc.).
>
> Spend time in court and see if the "law" give a flying fuck about the
> little guy.  The courts are corrupt.  Buy your way though it.  If the
> media was doing their job and monitoring the gov't and the courts, the
> abuses we are all subjected to would not be as pervasive.  But, I fear
> that the news agencies today are little more than Pravda.

Exxon lost billions in the Valdez oil spill, but recovered an
unspecified amount (well, as far as I was willing to research it) of
it through insurance.

I think you'll find that the particular things I mentioned hold.

>
> >Code: Electrical codes, building codes, construction codes,
> >occupational safety, etc.
>
> I'm not even going to waste my time.  More BS to bolster unions is all
> that is.

In part, but not in whole.

>
> >Satellites: cable news channels didn't put them up -- NASA did. There
> >are numerous other satellites: GPS, Landsat, spy, scientific, weather,
> >etc. The reader can make a list.
>
> I worked for GE AstroSpace for a stint.  Those satellites were paid for
> by the entities that wanted them... and they paid dear for them.  They,
> whomever wanted these, paid NASA to get them into space.  When others,
> such as the EU Space Agency had a lauch vehicle, could offer space for
> less, these satellites when up with those groups.

So what's your point? Gov't put up the satellites. There wouldn't be
any satellites otherwise.

>
> >Which of the above would you like to eliminate?
>
> Government.

You'd be sorry.

(We could eliminate OSes, too.)

>
> >You would prefer the Mafia?
>
> We have that already.  Government.

Please. This is nonsense.

You're welcome to move to another country.

Please don't take any of this as hostility. It's just a discussion as
far as I'm concerned.

AEF
0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:02:01 AM
On Mar 24, 8:59=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups=
..com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> I pay all my own bills. =A0And I would be very happy if everyone else
> would do the same. =A0And before people start crying about those poor
> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. =A0I had what
> I carried in my suitcase. =A0I worked to get where I am today and I
> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. =A0And,
> no, you didn't pay for my education either. =A0I have never attended
> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. =A0And, no, I did not come
> from a rich family. =A0My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. =A0He worked in
> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> to pay our way. =A0I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> the same.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
hospital treatments, without which many would die.

Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
I've mentioned in my posts?

AEF
0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:05:19 AM
On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> >In article <00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> >> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> >> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
> >> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> >> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> >> end of the world.
>
> >   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
> >   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
> >   but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>
> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
> business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
> a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
> the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
> cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
> How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
> right to life too?  Yeah, right...

More didn't die from those because of mandated vacciantion.

>
> >> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
> >> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> >> plate is empty.
>
> >   You think wrong.  It's a lot harder than you estimate.  And that
> >   dinner plate might be empty if not for the advances in food
> >   production made possible through an advanced society, doing things
> >   like the basic research that finds the data needed for those
> >   advances.
>
> Advances in modern society yes, but this has nothing to do with your
> gov't.  We have vastly superior communications and electronics.  None
> of which have come from the gov't -- save for, of course, the internet
> that Al (moron) Gore invented.

Nonsense. NSF funds a lot of important research that makes these
things possible.
Regardless, all these things INCREASE the need for govt.

>
> >   As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of places in this world
> >   where dinner plates are not full.
>
> @my house.

You're welcome to move to any of these other countries (just making a
point)

>
> >   And would your dinner plate be full if you didn't have a job that
> >   links directly back to government funded research in computing?
> >   Or would your job opportunities have been more along the line of
> >   migrant farmer if you grew up in a place that didn't invest in
> >   it's future?
>
> I left the government because I could not, with clear conscience, be
> a party to the waste, graft, mismanagement, and misappropriations of
> moneys that I saw therein.  It didn't change their ways but I sleep
> just the slightest bit better at night not being witness to it.

I think you missed his point.

>
> >> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
> >> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> >> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
> >> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
> >> NOT!
>
> >   The amonut of tax money you personnaly loose on making sure Campbell's
> >   measurements are accurate would not pay for that measuring cup.
>
> You have the poop on where my tax dollars went?  I'd love to track all
> the great deeds that my dollars are doing for my fellow citizen.  Yeah,
> right...

It's in the back of the instructions for the 1040 form.

>
>
>
> >> I get mine by looking outside.
>
> >   Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
> >   ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
> >   of people out of the way before the city was drowned.
>
> This is the same gov't that built the levies that pumped the basin dry
> so that New Orleans could move and rid itself of poor, disenfranchised
> blacks to populate this accident waiting to happen?  I'm _so_ proud of
> us!  Yeah, right....

So let's dump the NWS. Just get rid of them altogether. New Orleans
isn't the only place hurricanes hit.

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

It's called the estate, uh, "death" tax.

AEF
0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:12:56 AM
On Mar 24, 5:44=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
> > =A0 =A0JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> >>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit th=
em
> >>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
> >> Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do n=
ot
> >> "make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
> >> the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
> >> things is perspective.
>
> >> What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a bugg=
y,
> >> I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
> >> turn heads, as if I didn't exist.
>
> > Been to NYC lately? =A0Or Toronto? =A0Or Paris?
>
> > bill
>
> Good point! =A0I don't know about Toronto or Paris but NYC, PHL and other
> American cities are anything but safe! =A0The available evidence strongly
> suggests that over crowded people behave every bit as badly as over
> crowded rats!

I lived in Brooklyn for 11 years and worked in Manhattan for 16 years
and things are enormously safer than in the 70s or even 80s.

And some New Yorkers ARE friendly.

AEF
0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:17:01 AM
On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> >In article <00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> >> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> >> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
> >> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> >> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> >> end of the world.
>
> >   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
> >   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
> >   but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>
> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
> business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
> a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
> the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
> cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
> How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
> right to life too?  Yeah, right...

You're anti-govt and anti-pharam. So what do you recommend be done
about it?
BTW, you switched from Bob's defense of govt-mandated vacciantion to
evil pharma.

Maybe more people get diabetes because there's no vaccination for it?
Those other diseases have been PREVENTED FROM OCCURRING AT ALL, so
it's not really a mystery why more people have diabetes. And I'm not
speaking for your case, but many have type-2 due to poor diet and lack
of exercise. Again, I AM NOT SPEAKING ABOUT YOUR PARTICULAR CASE. Some
people get diabetes anyway. Since you inject insulin, I guess that
means you're type 1 anyway.

$1000 a month? Others would pay that much and more for other
conditions if they didn't have insurance. It's not just diabetes.
Diabetes is a truly awful disease. I have personally seen its effects
on loved ones. It ravages the body. But other diseases are also
expensive. AIDS, for example. And some drugs are even more expensive
than AIDS drugs!

Well, if not pharma, and not govt -- Again I ask: What do you
recommend be done about it?

[...]
>
>
> >> I get mine by looking outside.
>
> >   Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
> >   ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
> >   of people out of the way before the city was drowned.
>
> This is the same gov't that built the levies that pumped the basin dry
> so that New Orleans could move and rid itself of poor, disenfranchised
> blacks to populate this accident waiting to happen?  I'm _so_ proud of
> us!  Yeah, right....

This is a "confulence" of good and bad govt. No one said govt is all
good. Only you are making a black and white issue out of it. You
rarely hear of the good because we don't take much notice of things
going right, but the bad has to be dealt with and is far more time
consuming. So that's what we hear in the news. I think Katrina would
have been even worse without any warning. But the incompetent side of
govt certainly dominated with Katrina. But even so -- well-built areas
get clobbered by hurricanes.

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

So tax 'em.

AEF
0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:45:19 AM
In article <7UD$aIc0XRxl@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9AEC6.546BA6E3@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> 
>> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
>> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
>> people on farms, to cutting lawns, to newspaper delivery, etc., etc.  The
>> local town folks would help one out through church functions or just plain
>> old Pennsylvania Dutch hospitality, but they wouldn't allow such people to
>> remain a perpertual burden on the community.
>
>   Opporunities you might not have had if you grew up in Brooklin.
>
>   I worked damn hard on my grandfathers' farm for damn little money,
>   but I recognise it as an opportunity few have.
>
>> 
>> Unlike Bill, I did go to a public school; however, I paid MY way through
>> college.
>
>   Do you think your tuition actually paid the cost of that education?
>   I know (first hand), that New Jersey spends less money on education
>   than most states, but I never believed that the $300/semester tution
>   I paid MYself covered the cost.

Wow. I wish I could have paid $300 a semester.  Back then, more like $3K
without room and board and sudry other fees.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/25/2010 12:49:14 AM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>>> In article <00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
>>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
>>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
>>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
>>>> end of the world.
>>>   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>>>   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>>>   but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
>> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>> business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
>> a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
>> the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
>> cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
>> How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
>> right to life too?  Yeah, right...
> 
> You're anti-govt and anti-pharam. So what do you recommend be done
> about it?
> BTW, you switched from Bob's defense of govt-mandated vacciantion to
> evil pharma.
> 
> Maybe more people get diabetes because there's no vaccination for it?

Diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease!
0
Richard
3/25/2010 12:54:57 AM
On Mar 24, 7:23 pm, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 24, 8:03 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > >On Mar 18, 5:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > >> In article <4ba27f2e$0$15757$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmeze=
> > >i.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> > >> >Bob Koehler wrote:
>
> > >> >> =A0 =A0We have plenty of idiots in Washington making this mess. =A0You=
> > > want
> > >> >> =A0 =A0us to give one idiot that much power? =A0How long did it take t=
> > >he
> > >> >> =A0 =A0British to take that kind of power away from the monarch?
>
> > >> >Not saying that the president should write and implement his own budgets
> > >> >without a vote. But the president should write budgets and present them
> > >> >for a vote. Any request for amendments should PUBLICALLY flow back top
> > >> >the president and the president then decides whether to include the
> > >> >amendment or not.
>
> > >> >Right now, because every congress/senate critter is able to add their
> > >> >own pork spending to the budget as a condition of getting their vote,
> > >> >the budget contains a gazillion hidden clauses that are not publically
> > >> >debated (since congressman 1 knows that if he starts to argue against
> > >> >congressman #2's pork, his own pork will also be exposed).
>
> > >> You need to study the constitution. =A0Also, who's to stop the congress
> > >> critter from bribing the presidential critter to stuf the budget with
> > >> pork? =A0
>
> > >> It is all a game of legitimized separation of what is rightfully ours
> > >> from ourselves. =A0Taxation with representation is not better than when
> > >> the colonists chided about taxation without it. =A0It's all the same.
>
> > >VAXMAN, much of what you say here I agree with. But not all. Here
> > >goes.
>
> > >Then why all the gerrymandering to influence voting?
>
> > You asked it?  You could answer it.  The answer should be as plain as the
> > nose on your face.  It's just another scheme to derail the representative
> > voting process.
>
> You missed the point. Relax, dude. The point is that voting does
> matter. And California recently outlawed gerrymandering.
>
>
>
> > >> =A0 =A0A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free
> > >> =A0 =A0to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement,
> > >> =A0 =A0and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has
> > >> =A0 =A0earned -- this is the sum of good government.
> > >> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> > >More than two hundred years have passed. Things are different.
>
> > Are they?
>
> I explained this in another post.
>
>
>
> > People no longer want freedom?  Privacy from government intervention?
>
> See my other post.
>
>
>
> > >> =A0 =A0I consider all the ill as established which may be established.
> > >> =A0 =A0I have a right to nothing which another has a right to take away.
> > >> =A0 =A0-- Thomas Jefferson
>
> > >Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> > >insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> > I pay for my medicines.  I work wholy to suvive and, when others "steal"
> > my money through taxes or court edict, it causes ME the loss of life and
> > of liberty and of persuit of happiness.
>
> I find this difficult to believe. I certainly couldn't afford the
> actual price of all my medicines.
>
> Yes, some people get screwed; I never said otherwise. All I said is
> that there's a lot that the gov't does that is good. Don't want to pay
> taxes? You don't want police protection? Fire? You don't want safe
> vaccines for your kids? Vaccines are not a big money-maker for pharma.
> You're lucky you were vaccinated. You have to pay for these things. If
> it weren't for govt-sponsered research you might well be dead for lack
> of medicines. But I don't know your exact situation, though you've
> described it before, so I have some idea.
>
> Hey! I pay property taxes and I don't even have kids! So those who
> have kids should be grateful I'm chipping in. And hey, if the
> alternative is more ignoramuses on the street, I'll continue to chip
> in.
>
> Relax. It's not *I* who am collecting taxes from you, issuing unfair
> court edicts, and such.
>
> One example doesn't prove a rule. Example: The Space Shuttle blew up!
> I guess they all blow up.
>
> /relax
>
> OK, I once (or twice!) went ballistic over EDT vs. EVE. . . . So don't
> relax. Never mind.
>
>
>
> > --
> > VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> >  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> > Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> > turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
> Yes, the estate, uh, "death tax" attempts to do this.
>
> AEF

0
Alan
3/25/2010 12:56:28 AM
In article <4baa778b$0$9208$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I was born and raised in rural PA.  A small (and I do mean small) town was
>> nearby.  I was taught self-reliance and I worked from age of 10 for local
>> people on farms, 
>
>You make it sound like you came from Amish country...  Did Digital ever
>produce a crank operated VAX ?
>
>:-) :-)


I'd rather trust a countryman than a townman,
You can judge by his eyes, take a look if you can,
He'll smile through his guard, Survival trains hard.
I'd rather trust a man who works with his hands,
He looks at you once, you know he understands,
Don't need any shield, When you're out in the field.

         -- Peter Gabriel

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/25/2010 1:09:34 AM
In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
>
>Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do not
>"make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
>the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
>things is perspective.
>
>What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a buggy,
>I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
>turn heads, as if I didn't exist.

Even the Amish know to shun Canucks! :)

Seriously, where were you?  Amish run businesses and do interface with the
public.  They're very nice and congenial too.  However, most do prefer to
insulate themselves in their personal and family lives.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/25/2010 1:09:35 AM
Alan Feldman wrote:

>>> Which of the above would you like to eliminate?
>> Government.
> 
> You'd be sorry.
> 

No, agent provacatuer of the U.S. gov.,
the states created the Feds, and it has the right to dismantle it
and set up a new one.  The one you work for now is run by communists.
So, get ready to bend over and take it from your masters.
0
GreyCloud
3/25/2010 3:17:05 AM
In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351863@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mar 24, 8:59=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups=
> .com>,
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>
>> I pay all my own bills. =A0And I would be very happy if everyone else
>> would do the same. =A0And before people start crying about those poor
>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. =A0I had what
>> I carried in my suitcase. =A0I worked to get where I am today and I
>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. =A0And,
>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. =A0I have never attended
>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. =A0And, no, I did not come
>> from a rich family. =A0My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. =A0He worked in
>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>> to pay our way. =A0I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> the same.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
> =A0Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
> =A0
> 
> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> hospital treatments, without which many would die.

I meant to stay out of this (and I usually disagree with Bill), but
I am at a complete failure in understanding your response here.

Like Bill, I went off to college with little more than a suitcase (no
Daddy or government (Social Security) funded car like several of my
roommates).  My parents did give me a few dollars for gas money to
pay my friends for gas when getting a ride between college and home.
Yes, a scolarship earned on merit paid my $350-$450 tuition, but I
worked multiple (i.e., at the same time) part time jobs while never
carrying less than a full (18+ hours) course load.  I cleaned toilets,
worked with raw sewage (when a manhole backs up, someone usually ends
up having to stick their hand into it) and rode garbage trucks
(actually worse than dealing with raw sewage) each summer, in order
to pay room and board.  I've worked for everything I have since then.

I believe, like Bill, that I have a reasonably good idea how much it
costs for medicines and hospital care.  Although I have good employer
insurance, I paid $2000 last fiscal year in non-drug co-pays.  My
insurance provider (who for FWIW is non-profit) paid $1900 for my
prescriptions, while my share was just a little less.  I pay
~$100/month (my employer pays at least 3x that amount) for the
insurance, so my out-of-pocket cost last fiscal year for medicines,
surgery and doctors was ~$4800.  Given that my insurance only pays a
negotiated fraction of the billed doctor/hospital cost, I believe
$20,000 would be close to the cost of my medical treatment.  Yes,
the costs are inflated to cover uninsured treatment, but they are
also discounted because the insurance company refuses to pay the
inflated price (this explains why someone who pays privately pays a
price upto twice or more than the actual cost).

If I stupidly (at my age) didn't have insurance, my actual cost
would be about three times as much ($14,000) after tax deductions.
It would be a hardship, but I could deal with it.  Catastrophic
health insurance is one solution to catastrophic illness; the premiums
are a small fraction of regular insurance.  Anyone who can afford
cable TV should be able to afford the premiums (might require giving
up the cable which is neither a freedom nor a right).  Anyone getting
cable instead of insurance should have to live with their decision;
it's a free country (US), and we are a free people (or at least we
once were).  Yes, the truly needy should be helped which is why we
have programs like Medicaid, Social Security disability, etc., etc.,
and so on and so forth, etc... (the list is almost endless), but at
least people have the "FREEDOM" to opt out of all these programs
unlike Obamacare.  If you refuse to take part in Obamacare, the IRS
(they are hiring 16,000 more agents just to do this) will confiscate
several percent of all your income (wages, investment, etc.).  If
you do have Obamacare, all your medical and insurance records are
provided to the IRS, so that they can see that you are not doctor
shopping, etc., etc. and so on and on.  Not that doctor shopping is
a good thing, but is it any business of the federal goverment?
Exactly where in the US Constitution does it give the government
the right to monitor every aspect of your health care?  Where is
the right to punish a US citizen if that citizen prefers someother
type of health care than the US goverment DEMANDS you have or ELSE?

In any case, now that the socialists have taken over control of my
health care, I am fully aware (like all too few) that my insurance
premiums are going nowhere but up, and the availability of care is
going nowhere but down (there is already a three month wait at a
local university teaching hospital to see one specialty due to
too few doctors; this reform will only reduce the number of doctors
even more).  Everyone in the US needs to start preparing their
finances for the coming VAT tax; unfortunately it is a tax which
appears small (perhaps 1%), but because it is added at every step,
it greatly increases the final cost of everything.

Freedom is so easy to give up, but so extremely hard to regain.  It's
increasingly hard to be proud to be an American after we let a cabal
of socialists take control and throw the Constitution in the trash.
One member (Alcee L. Hastings) of the House rules committee recently
stated on camera (not exact quote) "We are trying to do something
here.  There are no rules.  We make the rules up as we go."  The
very best definition of progressivism I've yet to hear.  They believe
that the ends ALWAYS justifies the means no matter WHAT or who is in
the way.


George Cook
cook@wvnet.edu

BTW, JF, when I rode thru Pennsylvania dutch country on a motorcycle
(I have been back and forth across the US several times), they were the
most friendly people I recall meeting.  I would love to return to the
one restaurant where it almost felt like I was eating a friend's home
cooked meal.  The woman who served me might as well have been my
grandmother.  I still think about it from time to time 25+ years later.
0
cook
3/25/2010 4:15:20 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Seriously, where were you?  Amish run businesses and do interface with the
> public.  They're very nice and congenial too.  However, most do prefer to
> insulate themselves in their personal and family lives.


This was in august 1989. (august 26 the be precise).

Started in Fort Washington nw of philadelphia, then through valley forge
on 23 to New Holland, then south and ended up riding on "amish road" for
 a short stretch and a mi of 340 and 30 to get back towards
pohiladelphia where I then veered north on 322 to reach ft washington on
Joshua Rd.

My logs are a bit fuzzy on the exact route though. Google Maps didn't
exist back then and I only had 80 characters to type in the route.

The stretch between New Holland and when I started to head back east was
farmland that was exactly as pictured in the movie "Witness". And you
could spot the homes that had electricity wires running to them since
most of them didn't in that area.

0
JF
3/25/2010 4:15:48 AM
In article <4baae376$0$5256$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Seriously, where were you?  Amish run businesses and do interface with the
>> public.  They're very nice and congenial too.  However, most do prefer to
>> insulate themselves in their personal and family lives.
>
>
>This was in august 1989. (august 26 the be precise).
>
>Started in Fort Washington nw of philadelphia, then through valley forge
>on 23 to New Holland, then south and ended up riding on "amish road" for
> a short stretch and a mi of 340 and 30 to get back towards
>pohiladelphia where I then veered north on 322 to reach ft washington on
>Joshua Rd.

I know Ft. Washington area well.  There's a PA TPK exit which exits
to the southern end of Rt. 309 in Ft. Washington.  I was born/raised
at the northern end of Rt. 309 and then some.  My son lives about 3
miles to the south of that interchange.

You didn't get too much into the heart of the Amish county on that
route.  I don't doubt you saw a few but you'd need to get a bit more
to the north and west for that.  Draw a trianglular area with Reading,
Lebanon and Lancaster and bike around though there. 

>My logs are a bit fuzzy on the exact route though. Google Maps didn't
>exist back then and I only had 80 characters to type in the route.
>
>The stretch between New Holland and when I started to head back east was
>farmland that was exactly as pictured in the movie "Witness". And you
>could spot the homes that had electricity wires running to them since
>most of them didn't in that area.

Nice area and the air smells clean even with a newly manured field
or two which smell better than Elizabeth proNJ by a long stretch!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/25/2010 11:35:17 AM
"George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message 
news:EJ6Cl99WYwsj@wvnvms...
> are a small fraction of regular insurance.  Anyone who can afford
> cable TV should be able to afford the premiums (might require giving
> up the cable which is neither a freedom nor a right).  Anyone getting
> cable instead of insurance should have to live with their decision;

I pay about $140/month for cable+internet.  Please let me know where an 
individual (especially one with a serious illness) can buy health insurance 
on the open market for $140/month.

To help us back on topic, I just found left-handed keyboards at Walmart. :)

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Ergoguys-KBS-29BLK-Left-Handed-Keyboard-Wired-USB-Black/13215036?sourceid=1500000000000003142050&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=13215036

John 


0
John
3/25/2010 12:18:58 PM
In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351863@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mar 24, 8:59�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>
>> I pay all my own bills. �And I would be very happy if everyone else
>> would do the same. �And before people start crying about those poor
>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. �I had what
>> I carried in my suitcase. �I worked to get where I am today and I
>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. �And,
>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. �I have never attended
>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. �And, no, I did not come
>> from a rich family. �My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. �He worked in
>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>> to pay our way. �I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> the same.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon � � � � �| �de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. �Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | �and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton � |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania � | � � � � #include <std.disclaimer.h> �
> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
> I've mentioned in my posts?

I never said I was against the government providing those things that
the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to 
special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
wasted on are not part of that.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 12:22:20 PM
In article <3696bb5f-435c-438e-96a4-7428fac610a6@e7g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mar 24, 5:44�pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> > In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
>> > � �JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>
>> >>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit them
>> >>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
>> >> Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I do not
>> >> "make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that of
>> >> the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps put
>> >> things is perspective.
>>
>> >> What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a buggy,
>> >> I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not even
>> >> turn heads, as if I didn't exist.
>>
>> > Been to NYC lately? �Or Toronto? �Or Paris?
>>
>> > bill
>>
>> Good point! �I don't know about Toronto or Paris but NYC, PHL and other
>> American cities are anything but safe! �The available evidence strongly
>> suggests that over crowded people behave every bit as badly as over
>> crowded rats!
> I lived in Brooklyn for 11 years and worked in Manhattan for 16 years
> and things are enormously safer than in the 70s or even 80s.

The original message inthis thread was not about safety, it was about
being friendly to strangers.

> And some New Yorkers ARE friendly.

As are some Amish.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 12:23:57 PM
In article <00A9AF74.5143CE3E@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <4baae376$0$5256$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> Seriously, where were you?  Amish run businesses and do interface with the
>>> public.  They're very nice and congenial too.  However, most do prefer to
>>> insulate themselves in their personal and family lives.
>>
>>
>>This was in august 1989. (august 26 the be precise).
>>
>>Started in Fort Washington nw of philadelphia, then through valley forge
>>on 23 to New Holland, then south and ended up riding on "amish road" for
>> a short stretch and a mi of 340 and 30 to get back towards
>>pohiladelphia where I then veered north on 322 to reach ft washington on
>>Joshua Rd.
> 
> I know Ft. Washington area well.  There's a PA TPK exit which exits
> to the southern end of Rt. 309 in Ft. Washington.  I was born/raised
> at the northern end of Rt. 309 and then some.  

Say what?  The northern end of PA 309 is in Noxen, about 15 miles north
of my house.  :-)  "and then some"? How much?  Only have about 40 miles
of PA 29 until it isn't PA anymore.  I thought you were from down a lot
closer to the Philly area.

>                                                My son lives about 3
> miles to the south of that interchange.
> 
> You didn't get too much into the heart of the Amish county on that
> route.  I don't doubt you saw a few but you'd need to get a bit more
> to the north and west for that.  Draw a trianglular area with Reading,
> Lebanon and Lancaster and bike around though there. 

Or Shippensburg.  Or the area around Le Raysville (they are not all
around Lancaster),
> 
>>My logs are a bit fuzzy on the exact route though. Google Maps didn't
>>exist back then and I only had 80 characters to type in the route.
>>
>>The stretch between New Holland and when I started to head back east was
>>farmland that was exactly as pictured in the movie "Witness". And you
>>could spot the homes that had electricity wires running to them since
>>most of them didn't in that area.
> 
> Nice area and the air smells clean even with a newly manured field
> or two which smell better than Elizabeth proNJ by a long stretch!

I breakfasted with the local farmers just about everyday when I was
mobilized (when I wasn't overseas).  Reminded me why I really hate
living in the city.  A mistake I am hoping to correct fairly soon
and will never make again. 

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 12:36:35 PM
In article <DrGdnUyys5AzyTbWnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
	"John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message 
> news:EJ6Cl99WYwsj@wvnvms...
>> are a small fraction of regular insurance.  Anyone who can afford
>> cable TV should be able to afford the premiums (might require giving
>> up the cable which is neither a freedom nor a right).  Anyone getting
>> cable instead of insurance should have to live with their decision;
> 
> I pay about $140/month for cable+internet.  Please let me know where an 
> individual (especially one with a serious illness) can buy health insurance 
> on the open market for $140/month.
> 

Their spouse/parent could join the military.  Full medical benefits at 
no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions. 
As a matter of fact, it was just recently in the news as someone actually
did it.

There are always options other than forcing someone who is not responsible
for it to foot the bill. 
The same applies to a lot of the unemployed/homeless problem.  And not
liking the job is not a valid excuse.  The work is there, pays well, has
probably the best healthcare plan and retirement of any employer. And,
the pay is a heck of a lot better than it was when I first did it.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 12:55:01 PM
In article <8114p4FupeU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill
Gunshannon) writes:
> 
> Their spouse/parent could join the military.  Full medical benefits at 
> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions. 
> As a matter of fact, it was just recently in the news as someone actually
> did it.
> 
> There are always options other than forcing someone who is not responsible
> for it to foot the bill. 

Sorry? It's taxpayers money and so somebody else pays the bill.

> The same applies to a lot of the unemployed/homeless problem.  And not
> liking the job is not a valid excuse. 

There are valid reasons not to join military.
0
m
3/25/2010 1:15:12 PM
What a strange country that is being described in this
(off-topic) thread. Certainly not one I'd ever choose
to live in.
0
R
3/25/2010 1:28:25 PM
On Mar 25, 8:55=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> Their spouse/parent could join the military. =A0Full medical benefits at
> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions.

That is so funny!  Here's a group of people ranting about how the
government shouldn't be providing health care using tax dollars, and
you go and say someone without insurance should join the military in
order to get health care provided by the government using tax
dollars.  ROTFLMAO!!

I'm sorry, I'll go back to just browsing the amazing conversation
going on here and wondering again why this is using up so much
bandwidth on comp.os.vms.


www.noesys.com
0
FrankS
3/25/2010 1:32:20 PM
In article <hofnmv$90j$1@lnx107.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de>,
	m.kraemer@gsi.de (Michael Kraemer) writes:
> In article <8114p4FupeU4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill
> Gunshannon) writes:
>> 
>> Their spouse/parent could join the military.  Full medical benefits at 
>> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions. 
>> As a matter of fact, it was just recently in the news as someone actually
>> did it.
>> 
>> There are always options other than forcing someone who is not responsible
>> for it to foot the bill. 
> 
> Sorry? It's taxpayers money and so somebody else pays the bill.

Yes, but maintaining the military is a valid use for tax money under
the constitutional requirement for the gobvernment to offer protection.
It's just like the previous example of police protection.  And, the
person ionvolved is earning that health care as opposed to just relying
on someone else to support them for nothing.

> 
>> The same applies to a lot of the unemployed/homeless problem.  And not
>> liking the job is not a valid excuse. 
> 
> There are valid reasons not to join military.

If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay for
it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job and
forcing others to carry them?

has everyone foprgotten the adage: "Beggars can't be choosers."

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 1:50:21 PM
In article <d260bd9a-7e8a-41d4-95aa-8d5494caeb24@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
	FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:
> On Mar 25, 8:55�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> Their spouse/parent could join the military. �Full medical benefits at
>> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions.
> That is so funny!  Here's a group of people ranting about how the
> government shouldn't be providing health care using tax dollars, and
> you go and say someone without insurance should join the military in
> order to get health care provided by the government using tax
> dollars.  ROTFLMAO!!

Providing for the nation al defense is a legitimate use of tax money.
A person who serves int he military is earning that healthcare, not
relying on someone else to give it to them for nothing.

bill


-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 1:52:50 PM
"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
news:81180tFupeU5@mid.individual.net...

> If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay for
> it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job and
> forcing others to carry them?
>

So when I'm 50yo, laidoff from my job, COBRA runs out, and my diabetes is 
getting worse, I can just hop down to my local recruiting office and sign up 
asking for that "free insurance"?  They aren't that desparate for canon 
fodder are they? 


0
John
3/25/2010 1:56:11 PM
FrankS wrote:
> On Mar 25, 8:55 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> Their spouse/parent could join the military.  Full medical benefits at
>> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions.
> 
> That is so funny!  Here's a group of people ranting about how the
> government shouldn't be providing health care using tax dollars, and
> you go and say someone without insurance should join the military in
> order to get health care provided by the government using tax
> dollars.  ROTFLMAO!!
> 
> I'm sorry, I'll go back to just browsing the amazing conversation
> going on here and wondering again why this is using up so much
> bandwidth on comp.os.vms.
> 
> 
> www.noesys.com

It's using up bandwidth because the bandwidth is there!  There's not a 
heck of a lot we can say about VMS that has not already been said ad 
nauseum.
0
Richard
3/25/2010 2:08:17 PM
In article <DZSdnaDigaXq9jbWnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
	"John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> "Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
> news:81180tFupeU5@mid.individual.net...
> 
>> If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay for
>> it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job and
>> forcing others to carry them?
>>
> 
> So when I'm 50yo, laidoff from my job, COBRA runs out, and my diabetes is 
> getting worse, I can just hop down to my local recruiting office and sign up 
> asking for that "free insurance"?  They aren't that desparate for canon 
> fodder are they? 

By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
care of things like that.  You had at least 32 years of workable time
to do it.  And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
to 42.  That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work.  50%
of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life.  Name
one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
 
bill 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 2:15:59 PM
On 2010-03-25 14:52, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article<d260bd9a-7e8a-41d4-95aa-8d5494caeb24@35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> 	FrankS<sapienza@noesys.com>  writes:
>> On Mar 25, 8:55 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>> Their spouse/parent could join the military.  Full medical benefits at
>>> no cost to the insured and no restriction on pre-existing conditions.
>> That is so funny!  Here's a group of people ranting about how the
>> government shouldn't be providing health care using tax dollars, and
>> you go and say someone without insurance should join the military in
>> order to get health care provided by the government using tax
>> dollars.  ROTFLMAO!!
>
> Providing for the nation al defense is a legitimate use of tax money.

Such as playing around in Iraq and Afghanistan and paying big-tax-money
to Blackwater ? Hm, maybe so...

0
Jan
3/25/2010 2:19:31 PM
In article <8113mjFupeU3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A9AF74.5143CE3E@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <4baae376$0$5256$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>
>>>> Seriously, where were you?  Amish run businesses and do interface with the
>>>> public.  They're very nice and congenial too.  However, most do prefer to
>>>> insulate themselves in their personal and family lives.
>>>
>>>
>>>This was in august 1989. (august 26 the be precise).
>>>
>>>Started in Fort Washington nw of philadelphia, then through valley forge
>>>on 23 to New Holland, then south and ended up riding on "amish road" for
>>> a short stretch and a mi of 340 and 30 to get back towards
>>>pohiladelphia where I then veered north on 322 to reach ft washington on
>>>Joshua Rd.
>> 
>> I know Ft. Washington area well.  There's a PA TPK exit which exits
>> to the southern end of Rt. 309 in Ft. Washington.  I was born/raised
>> at the northern end of Rt. 309 and then some.  
>
>Say what?  The northern end of PA 309 is in Noxen, about 15 miles north
>of my house.  :-)  "and then some"? How much?  Only have about 40 miles
>of PA 29 until it isn't PA anymore.  I thought you were from down a lot
>closer to the Philly area.

OK.  More likely the mid-point of 309 and then up 873.  Since 309 became
the "Ft. Washington Expressway" with traffic signals every 10 ft, I very
seldom travel it.  It's easier to use the NE Ext. (476).


>>                                                My son lives about 3
>> miles to the south of that interchange.
>> 
>> You didn't get too much into the heart of the Amish county on that
>> route.  I don't doubt you saw a few but you'd need to get a bit more
>> to the north and west for that.  Draw a trianglular area with Reading,
>> Lebanon and Lancaster and bike around though there. 
>
>Or Shippensburg.  Or the area around Le Raysville (they are not all
>around Lancaster),

I know that.  JF just missed getting into the heart of the area where 
he'd been biking.


>I breakfasted with the local farmers just about everyday when I was
>mobilized (when I wasn't overseas).  Reminded me why I really hate
>living in the city.  A mistake I am hoping to correct fairly soon
>and will never make again. 

;)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/25/2010 2:35:08 PM
"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
news:8119gvFupeU7@mid.individual.net...

>
> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
> care of things like that.  You had at least 32 years of workable time
> to do it.  And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
> to 42.  That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work.  50%
> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life.  Name
> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
>

Any private company that offers that level of benefits would be massively in 
debt.  Oh wait, it is. 


0
John
3/25/2010 3:50:28 PM
In article <LaydnUf8VYbdGzbWnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
	"John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> "Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
> news:8119gvFupeU7@mid.individual.net...
> 
>>
>> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
>> care of things like that.  You had at least 32 years of workable time
>> to do it.  And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
>> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
>> to 42.  That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
>> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work.  50%
>> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life.  Name
>> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
>>
> 
> Any private company that offers that level of benefits would be massively in 
> debt.  Oh wait, it is. 
 
Poke fun at it all you want.  it exists and is a valid option to
leeching off of the people who actually work for a livingin this
country.  It serves a definite need.  It has risks and hardships
associated with it that most civilian jobs don't have and it offers
what it considers to be equivalent compensation.  And, like any
job, careful planning can make it a relatively safe, easy and 
interesting occupation and still offer the same longterm benefits.

If I had stayed on Active Duty from the time I originally joined
the Army I could have served 30 years (that gets you 75% of your
pay for retirement) without ever seeing a hazrdous duty assignment.
Even today, I put my uniform back on in 2003 after 911 and the
only trips I made into theater were at my own request.  I am hoping
for at least one more, but at this point it seems very unlikely.
And people who serve in the Navy, Air Force and even the Coast Guard
get the same opportunities with even less liklihood of being put
in harms way.  Believe it or not, being a member of a State Police
force is much more dangerous than either the Army or even the USMC.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/25/2010 4:38:18 PM
"Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
news:811hrqF9m0U2@mid.individual.net...
> In article <LaydnUf8VYbdGzbWnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:

>>
>> Any private company that offers that level of benefits would be massively 
>> in
>> debt.  Oh wait, it is.
>
> Poke fun at it all you want.  it exists and is a valid option to
> leeching off of the people who actually work for a livingin this
> country.  It serves a definite need.  It has risks and hardships

I'm certainly not poking fun at the military.  I have several relatives who 
served included an active duty air guard pilot.

I am challenging your claim that people should just go join the military 
(funded by tax dollars) instead of "leeching" of the people who work (and 
pay the tax dollars).  The military is indeed an option for many young 
people today.  It isn't a reasonable option for the rest of us.

John 


0
John
3/25/2010 5:13:56 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <LaydnUf8VYbdGzbWnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 	"John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
>> "Bill Gunshannon" <billg999@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message 
>> news:8119gvFupeU7@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
>>> care of things like that.  You had at least 32 years of workable time
>>> to do it.  And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
>>> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
>>> to 42.  That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
>>> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work.  50%
>>> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life.  Name
>>> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
>>>
>> Any private company that offers that level of benefits would be massively in 
>> debt.  Oh wait, it is. 
>  
> Poke fun at it all you want.  it exists and is a valid option to
> leeching off of the people who actually work for a livingin this
> country.  It serves a definite need.  It has risks and hardships
> associated with it that most civilian jobs don't have and it offers
> what it considers to be equivalent compensation.  And, like any
> job, careful planning can make it a relatively safe, easy and 
> interesting occupation and still offer the same longterm benefits.
> 
> If I had stayed on Active Duty from the time I originally joined
> the Army I could have served 30 years (that gets you 75% of your
> pay for retirement) without ever seeing a hazrdous duty assignment.
> Even today, I put my uniform back on in 2003 after 911 and the
> only trips I made into theater were at my own request.  I am hoping
> for at least one more, but at this point it seems very unlikely.
> And people who serve in the Navy, Air Force and even the Coast Guard
> get the same opportunities with even less liklihood of being put
> in harms way.  Believe it or not, being a member of a State Police
> force is much more dangerous than either the Army or even the USMC.
> 

Half a league, half a league, half a league onward,
Into the valley of death rode the six hundred.

As in just about any occupation, competent people are hard to find!
Remember Turtle Creek?  The C.O. wouldn't listen to George Washington 
and marched his command into a massacre.

Then there was somebody who wanted to do one last cavalry charge 
(Spanish American War??) and lost most of his command.



0
Richard
3/25/2010 7:21:26 PM
In article <DrGdnUyys5AzyTbWnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>, "John Reagan" <johnrreagan@earthlink.net> writes:
> "George Cook" <cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu> wrote in message 
> news:EJ6Cl99WYwsj@wvnvms...
>> are a small fraction of regular insurance.  Anyone who can afford
>> cable TV should be able to afford the premiums (might require giving
>> up the cable which is neither a freedom nor a right).  Anyone getting
>> cable instead of insurance should have to live with their decision;
> 
> I pay about $140/month for cable+internet.  Please let me know where an 
> individual (especially one with a serious illness) can buy health insurance 
> on the open market for $140/month.

I believe I clearly stated catastrophic on the last line you snipped.
By that, I meant insurance which kicks in after, for example, 
$20,000/year (perhaps much higher depending on age, the cost of cable,
etc.).  It has been years since I carried such a policy, but one with
a pretty high kickin point (i.e., enough to avoid losing the house,
etc.) was not expensive relative to other insurance such as car and
home owner.  Of course, such a policy must be purchased prior to
becoming seriously ill.


George Cook
cook@wvnet.edu
0
cook
3/25/2010 7:23:42 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work.  50%
> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life.  Name
> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.

GM , Chrysler and Ford all offered that. Not sure if GM/Chrysler still
offer that.

The state of Kalifornia is under a lot of financial stress and they
blame a large portion on the more than generous retirement plans for
their employees where they get 90% of their salary and health benefits.
0
JF
3/25/2010 9:49:30 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I know that.  JF just missed getting into the heart of the area where 
> he'd been biking.

I still saw the "clich�" Amish scenes, with horse/buggy on the roads,
homes without electricity, etc.   And I rode on "Amish Road" which, for
a tourist, would have been the centre of it :-)

Interestingly, earlier that year, I had ridden through McBride BC, a
memonite (sp?) community. They are somewhat similar but less extreme
compared to Amish. There, I experienced the warmth and welcome that you
mentioned. (And they had an excellent bakery/pastry shop !)


In the movie "Witness", there are scenes where the Amish are abused by
"white men" and the Amish elders go through great strides to get their
community to not react and ignore everything white men say. I have no
way to know if this is real or just "Hollywood". But when I rode through
the area and experienced this "ignore the white men" treatment, I
equated it to what I had seen in the movie.

(I think they call "white men" "english" in the movie, not sure).
0
JF
3/25/2010 9:59:43 PM
Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Even today, I put my uniform back on in 2003 after 911 and the
> only trips I made into theater were at my own request.  


I find the army's use of the word "theatre" rather inappropriate. They
kill real people, many civilians, destroy infrastructrure, and many of
their own are severely injured and/or killed. It may be a show to the
generals who watch it in comfortable seating away from the action, but
it is far from a "theatre" for the people on the ground.
0
JF
3/25/2010 10:08:20 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
>> Even today, I put my uniform back on in 2003 after 911 and the
>> only trips I made into theater were at my own request.  
> 
> 
> I find the army's use of the word "theatre" rather inappropriate. They
> kill real people, many civilians, destroy infrastructrure, and many of
> their own are severely injured and/or killed. It may be a show to the
> generals who watch it in comfortable seating away from the action, but
> it is far from a "theatre" for the people on the ground.

The dictionary says that "theater" can mean "A large geographic area in 
which military operations are coordinated".  So the military's use of 
the word is correct.  Note that this usage dates back to at least the 
early 1940s and quite probably much earlier than that.
0
Richard
3/25/2010 11:53:22 PM
In article <4babdcd1$0$10448$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote:
[...]
>Interestingly, earlier that year, I had ridden through McBride BC, a
>memonite (sp?) community. They are somewhat similar but less extreme
>compared to Amish. There, I experienced the warmth and welcome that you
>mentioned. (And they had an excellent bakery/pastry shop !)

There is a Mennonite "community" in our general area (Central MA, USA).  There
is a farmstand nearby called "Pennsylvania Farm Boy", complete with requisite
cartoon drawing of same.  Someday, I will take a pic, and post it so that
VAXman can get a laugh.

Nice people - polite, friendly, and the veggies they sell in summer are great! 
They also run a lot of woodworking/furniture shops in the area.
[...]
0
BRAD
3/26/2010 12:18:49 AM
In article <slrnhqnvb8.i5.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>, BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () writes:
>In article <4babdcd1$0$10448$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote:
>[...]
>>Interestingly, earlier that year, I had ridden through McBride BC, a
>>memonite (sp?) community. They are somewhat similar but less extreme
>>compared to Amish. There, I experienced the warmth and welcome that you
>>mentioned. (And they had an excellent bakery/pastry shop !)
>
>There is a Mennonite "community" in our general area (Central MA, USA).  There
>is a farmstand nearby called "Pennsylvania Farm Boy", complete with requisite
>cartoon drawing of same.  Someday, I will take a pic, and post it so that
>VAXman can get a laugh.

Does it look like me? ;)


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/26/2010 12:56:26 AM
In article <00A9AFE5.4D8F8145@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG 
wrote:
>In article <slrnhqnvb8.i5.BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com>, 
BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () writes:
>>In article <4babdcd1$0$10448$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei wrote:
>>[...]
>>>Interestingly, earlier that year, I had ridden through McBride BC, a
>>>memonite (sp?) community. They are somewhat similar but less extreme
>>>compared to Amish. There, I experienced the warmth and welcome that you
>>>mentioned. (And they had an excellent bakery/pastry shop !)
>>
>>There is a Mennonite "community" in our general area (Central MA, USA).  There
>>is a farmstand nearby called "Pennsylvania Farm Boy", complete with requisite
>>cartoon drawing of same.  Someday, I will take a pic, and post it so that
>>VAXman can get a laugh.
>
>Does it look like me? ;)

Nope - he's not drinking a pint.	:-)
[...]
0
BRAD
3/26/2010 1:37:45 AM
BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () writes:

>There is a Mennonite "community" in our general area (Central MA, USA).  There
>is a farmstand nearby called "Pennsylvania Farm Boy", complete with requisite
>cartoon drawing of same.  Someday, I will take a pic, and post it so that
>VAXman can get a laugh.

>Nice people - polite, friendly, and the veggies they sell in summer are great! 
>They also run a lot of woodworking/furniture shops in the area.

Whereabouts?  I may want to check them out.
0
moroney
3/26/2010 6:13:50 PM
In article <hoitgu$fo5$1@pcls4.std.com>, Michael Moroney wrote:
>BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () writes:
>
>>There is a Mennonite "community" in our general area (Central MA, USA).  There
>>is a farmstand nearby called "Pennsylvania Farm Boy", complete with requisite
>>cartoon drawing of same.  Someday, I will take a pic, and post it so that
>>VAXman can get a laugh.
>
>>Nice people - polite, friendly, and the veggies they sell in summer are great! 
>>They also run a lot of woodworking/furniture shops in the area.
>
>Whereabouts?  I may want to check them out.

Mendon and Bellingham, mostly.  There is a woodworking shop on Rt. 16, next to
the drive-in.  There is another shop or two in Bellingham, on the road between
Bellingham and Franklin that turns into Washington/King St.

The aforementioned farm stand is also on this road, along with a nice gift
shop, open spring, summer, and fall.  There are also smaller-scale farmstands
scattered through the area.

You'll know you're in the right area when you see small wooden signs quoting
Bible verse, which change frequently.
0
BRAD
3/27/2010 12:36:37 AM
BRAD@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () writes:

>In article <hoitgu$fo5$1@pcls4.std.com>, Michael Moroney wrote:
>>
>>>Nice people - polite, friendly, and the veggies they sell in summer are great! 
>>>They also run a lot of woodworking/furniture shops in the area.
>>
>>Whereabouts?  I may want to check them out.

>Mendon and Bellingham, mostly.  There is a woodworking shop on Rt. 16, next to
>the drive-in.  There is another shop or two in Bellingham, on the road between
>Bellingham and Franklin that turns into Washington/King St.

Thanks!  I'll check out the area in a couple of weeks.
0
moroney
3/27/2010 12:58:09 PM
On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
..com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
ups.com>,
> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
ed
> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >> the same.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> University of Scranton |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>
> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
,
> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

Hi Bill,

There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
Horrors!

Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates. I don't see how
funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.

Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
sound.

AEF

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 2:59:27 PM
On Mar 25, 8:23=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <3696bb5f-435c-438e-96a4-7428fac61...@e7g2000yqf.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 24, 5:44=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> > In article <4baa8018$0$9288$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>,
> >> > =A0 =A0JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> >> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> >> >>> Before you decide to make fun of the Amish take some time to visit=
 them
> >> >>> and learn the truth about them (as opposed to the public lore).
> >> >> Actully, I did ride my bike through Amish country in the 1990s. I d=
o not
> >> >> "make fun" of them, but their lifestyle is such a contrast to that =
of
> >> >> the modern urban world with internet, computers etc, that it helps =
put
> >> >> things is perspective.
>
> >> >> What did disapoint me during my visit is that whenever I passed a b=
uggy,
> >> >> I would say "hello" nicely, and the folks in the buggy would not ev=
en
> >> >> turn heads, as if I didn't exist.
>
> >> > Been to NYC lately? =A0Or Toronto? =A0Or Paris?
>
> >> > bill
>
> >> Good point! =A0I don't know about Toronto or Paris but NYC, PHL and ot=
her
> >> American cities are anything but safe! =A0The available evidence stron=
gly
> >> suggests that over crowded people behave every bit as badly as over
> >> crowded rats!
> > I lived in Brooklyn for 11 years and worked in Manhattan for 16 years
> > and things are enormously safer than in the 70s or even 80s.
>
> The original message inthis thread was not about safety, it was about
> being friendly to strangers.
>
> > And some New Yorkers ARE friendly.
>
> As are some Amish.

I didn't say they weren't. I was referring solely to NYC.

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 3:00:39 PM
On Mar 25, 10:15=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <DZSdnaDigaXq9jbWnZ2dnUVZ_vydn...@earthlink.com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>
>
> > "Bill Gunshannon" <billg...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
> >news:81180tFupeU5@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay fo=
r
> >> it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job an=
d
> >> forcing others to carry them?
>
> > So when I'm 50yo, laidoff from my job, COBRA runs out, and my diabetes =
is
> > getting worse, I can just hop down to my local recruiting office and si=
gn up
> > asking for that "free insurance"? =A0They aren't that desparate for can=
on
> > fodder are they?
>
> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
> care of things like that. =A0You had at least 32 years of workable time
> to do it. =A0And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
> to 42. =A0That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work. =A050%
> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life. =A0Name
> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.

Suppose its diabetes type I. Just how would you take care of that? Or
being born with other horrible diseases and such? Or if you get
rejected by the armed forces? And is there enough room enough, even,
for all people you claim should join them?

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0



AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 3:09:17 PM
In article <e314b307-4181-4725-b4b1-f8758c72cb4d@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 25, 10:15=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <DZSdnaDigaXq9jbWnZ2dnUVZ_vydn...@earthlink.com>,
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Bill Gunshannon" <billg...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
>> >news:81180tFupeU5@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> >> If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay fo=
>r
>> >> it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job an=
>d
>> >> forcing others to carry them?
>>
>> > So when I'm 50yo, laidoff from my job, COBRA runs out, and my diabetes =
>is
>> > getting worse, I can just hop down to my local recruiting office and si=
>gn up
>> > asking for that "free insurance"? =A0They aren't that desparate for can=
>on
>> > fodder are they?
>>
>> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
>> care of things like that. =A0You had at least 32 years of workable time
>> to do it. =A0And, while I don't know if the other services have changed
>> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
>> to 42. =A0That age being based on making sure someone coming in has the
>> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work. =A050%
>> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life. =A0Name
>> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
>
>Suppose its diabetes type I. Just how would you take care of that? Or

7 injections a day?


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/27/2010 3:39:16 PM
In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1de3b@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>..com>,
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>ups.com>,
>> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>ed
>> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>
>> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> >> the same.
>>
>> >> bill
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> >> University of Scranton |
>> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>>
>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>,
>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>=A0Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>=A0
>
>Hi Bill,
>
>There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>Horrors!

I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
that tab?


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/27/2010 3:39:16 PM
On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <48OdnVuwc7u_Fj_WnZ2dnUVZ_jSdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
[...]
>
> >Low cost health care is an oxymoron!  100 years ago your doctor would
> >made house calls for fifty cents and would have held your hand while you
> >died!  There wasn't a hell of a lot else he could do.  There were no
> >sulfa drugs, no antibiotics, no treatment for diabetes, nothing!
>
> >It can take hundreds of millions of dollars to bring a new drug to
> >market.  It also takes years!
>
> >The alternative is risking things like the Thalidomide disaster.
>
> >I've often thought that we should rate drugs on a scale of A-Z where A
> >represents drugs that we have used for a hundred years or so and
> >understand fairly well.  Z, of course, would mean "it didn't kill the
> >test animals", Y would mean it didn't kill he human volunteers either.
>
> >Even aspirin is not perfectly safe for everyone!
>
> >A lot of drugs could be cheaper if we were willing to accept greater
> >risks!  Are you?
>
> Medicine is a fucking sham.  We're not that much farther out of the dark
> ages of leeches and blood lettings.  The only big diff is that now to get
> a leeching and bloodletting costs BIG FUKCING MONEY.  I *may* change my
> opinion the day medicine becomes a science.  As long as it is merely an
> industry hell bent on prolonging illness for money and treating symptoms

You'd rather die?

> not disease, I'm but buying into their bullshit.  Not one of the dozens
> of medications I take treats the disease... only its symptoms.  How many
> cures can you cite?
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

C'mon. Many are cured of cancer. Angioplasty and stents have saved
people's lives. You'd probably be in far worse shape without your
medicines. Treating diabetes: keeping your blood sugar under control
helps prevent blindness, heart disease, the need to amputate feet, and
a host of other horrible diseases I don't want to spend time looking
up.

OK, I'll look some up. From https://health.google.com/health/ref/Diabetes
:

Prognosis

With good blood glucose and blood pressure control, many of the
complications of diabetes can be prevented.

Studies have shown that strict control of blood sugar, cholesterol,
and blood pressure levels in persons with diabetes helps reduce the
risk of kidney disease, eye disease, nervous system disease, heart
attack, and stroke.

Are these merely symptoms?

Check out http://www.diabetes.org/living-with-diabetes/complications/
.. Are these symptoms? While not perfectly preventable, I'd think
keeping your blood sugar under control helps.

Lasers reattach retinas, unless you prefer medical instruments inside
your eyeballs to do the job (and in some cases that's necessary).
Vaccines prevent all sorts of horrible diseases; like polio, smallpox,
tuberculosis; obviating the need for a "cure". Pacemakers keep many
people alive. Transplants save lives. Nuclear medicine saves lives.
Dialysis saves lives. Heart-valve replacements cure defective heart
valves. People who suddenly get internal bleeding have their lives
saved (talk about bloodletting!). Colon cancer has a very high cure
rate, and is easy to detect in time if you just bother to get a
colonoscopy every 5 years. Prostatitis is curable with penicillin --
or in cases where it's not, Bacterium. Athlete's foot. Flu vaccine
prevents the flu a large percentage of the time. No, it's not perfect,
but a huge number are spared the flu, some of whom would otherwise
die. Thallium stress tests detect life-threatening problems with the
heart that can be treated before the patient dies of a heart attack.
So do EKGs. There are medicines that prevent seizures. Do you consider
a seizure to be just a "symptom". Imagine someone driving who
experiences a seizure. Aneurisms can be "cured" in some cases. Prompt
treatment of strokes can help limit the damage. Is brain damage a
symptom? I read once that what caused Beethoven's deafness is easily
curable today, but a quick look in Wikipedia says the cause was
uncertain. Penicillin cures a variety of diseases, including syphilis.

There are many more medicines and devices that cure or save lives.
Need I go on?

Are leeches and bloodletting going to do any of these things? I think
not!

Do you consider death to be a symptom?

Injuries. How do you cure those? Well, seat belts and air bags help.
OK, that's not "medicine". OK, you did say "diseases".

How do you know how hard it is to develop cures for diseases?

If it's a ripoff, don't buy any.

No, "big pharma" is not full of saints, but there are cures. And govt-
mandated vaccinations help. So does the FDA. No, it's not a perfect
system, and a few harmful drugs had to be discontinued, but they are
an incredibly small percentage of all drugs. Perfection is not
attainable.

As far as costs go, it is very expensive to develop new drugs and some
profit motive is needed. You can argue that the profits are
nonetheless excessive, on which I cannot comment. But there are cures
and life-saving products that do far more than leeches and
bloodletting.

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 4:57:51 PM
On Mar 19, 4:46=A0am, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mar 19, 5:35=A0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > FrankS wrote:
> > > All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
>
> > VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducing
> > employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
> > western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.
>
> (Not directed solely at JF)
>
> That sentence seems relevant to comp.os.vms
>
> What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
> two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
> looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
> subject of >>VMS<< rather than (say, in this context) on the business
> practices of the Western pharmaceutical industry? There's a very valid
> discussion on that subject to have, but is this the right place?

It appears to me that a majority of threads *are* VMS-related, and
that the others are rather easy to spot.

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 5:00:10 PM
On Mar 19, 7:29=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <dc4533de-2d42-4a8b-af30-42af37c6e...@m37g2000yqf.googlegroups=
..com>, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 19, 5:35=3DA0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >> FrankS wrote:
> >> > All of this is related to comp.os.vms how?
>
> >> VMS engineering has been outsourced offshore, like much of HP, reducin=
g
> >> employment, economic activity and tax revenues in the USA and other
> >> western nations where there was VMS engineering presence.
>
> >(Not directed solely at JF)
>
> >That sentence seems relevant to comp.os.vms
>
> >What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
> >two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
> >looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
> >subject of >>VMS<< rather than (say, in this context) on the business
> >practices of the Western pharmaceutical industry? There's a very valid
> >discussion on that subject to have, but is this the right place?
>
> Hmm... and when I recently posted about some VMS observations, those went
> unanswered, unread, unacknowledged.
>
> When I attended DECUS events or VMS bootcamp, I don't recall conversation
> being 100% focused 100% of the time on VMS. =A0At least, there's still so=
me
> life here.

Agreed. Just to prove, in part, that I agree with at least some of
what you write!

> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

0
Alan
3/27/2010 5:00:54 PM
On Mar 20, 8:29=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
> > John Wallace wrote:
>
> >> What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
> >> two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
> >> looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
> >> subject of >>VMS<< rather than
>
> > It says that comp.os.vms is populated by human beings with individual
> > personalities and with sufficient maturity to conduct themseves and
> > discuss difficult political topics in a civilised manner.
>
> <snicker> <choke> <gasp>

Have you seen some of the other newsgroups? This is quite civilized
compared to them.

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 5:03:17 PM
On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 10:03:17 -0700, Alan Feldman wrote:

> On Mar 20, 8:29 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>> > John Wallace wrote:
>>
>> >> What impression does most of the rest of this discussion (and one or
>> >> two other threads of late) give anyone who happens to pass by here
>> >> looking for focused information, knowledge, guidance, etc on the
>> >> subject of >>VMS<< rather than
>>
>> > It says that comp.os.vms is populated by human beings with individual
>> > personalities and with sufficient maturity to conduct themseves and
>> > discuss difficult political topics in a civilised manner.
>>
>> <snicker> <choke> <gasp>
> 
> Have you seen some of the other newsgroups? This is quite civilized
> compared to them.

Indeed. And the occasional thread drift is fine.

The only problem with this group is the continual Windows bashing. We all 
know it is bad, so why go on about it? It just gets very tiresome...and 
is really pretty irrelevant in itself.


-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

0
Bob
3/27/2010 5:39:44 PM
On Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:28:25 +0000, R.A.Omond wrote:

> What a strange country that is being described in this (off-topic)
> thread. Certainly not one I'd ever choose to live in.

LOL! Especially not without state medical support. The UK NHS has worked 
very well indeed for me...

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

0
Bob
3/27/2010 5:44:18 PM
On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> >In article <00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> >> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> >> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
> >> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> >> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> >> end of the world.

Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
vaccination.

>
> >   Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
> >   pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
> >   but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>
> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking

They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar. What exactly are
you asking for? To change the laws of nature? Or are you referring to
curing diabetes itself -- in which case why did you focus on
blindness? Just exactly how do you know how hard it is to cure
diabetes and how much is being done about it? And if, as you say, big
pharma has no incentive to develop a cure, and any and all gov't
should be wiped out (I think just not having police and the military
would be a disaster, no?) just what do you recommend be done about it?

> business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
> a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
> the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
> cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
> How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
> right to life too?  Yeah, right...

You'd be horribly worse off, or dead, otherwise. You can't mandate a
cure. Do you know for a fact that there is no research being done to
cure diabetes?

>
> >> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
> >> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
> >> plate is empty.
>
> >   You think wrong.  It's a lot harder than you estimate.  And that
> >   dinner plate might be empty if not for the advances in food
> >   production made possible through an advanced society, doing things
> >   like the basic research that finds the data needed for those
> >   advances.
>
> Advances in modern society yes, but this has nothing to do with your
> gov't.  We have vastly superior communications and electronics.  None
> of which have come from the gov't -- save for, of course, the internet
> that Al (moron) Gore invented.

You missed the point about "doing things like the basic research that
finds the data needed for those advances." Your comment didn't address
that.

Also, where were these inventions made? Mostly in America and Europe.
And what makes them different from the rest of the world? Better
gov't. Gov't creates an environment in which businesses and
individuals can succeed. (Patents come to mind.) More people want to
emigrate to the US and Europe than probably any other country. Why?

Even more: Radioactive isotopes, MRI (formerly known as NMR, nuclear
magnetic resonance) are results of govt-sponsored research (well, at
least the isotopes, if not both, but I bet NSF has something to do
with both). The isotopes are made at accelerators that were built for
doing NSF-funded basic research in nuclear and particle physics
(sometimes collectively known as high energy physics). NMR was
developed by physicists to study the magnetic properties of nuclei.
Now it is a life-saving diagnostic tool. There are many other
applications of NMR (aka MRI).

Basic research by Maxwell, Ampere, Faraday, Coulomb, Lorentz,
Einstein, Cavendish, and a host of other scientists, established the
fundamental laws of electromagnetism, tidily summed up in the Maxwell
Equations and the Lorentz force law. Admittedly I don't know how much
of this was gov't-sponsored. NSF pays for at least some research
performed at universities. Electromagnetism includes all wavelengths
of light: radio, microwave, infrared, visible, ultraviolet, X-rays,
Gamma rays. Optics is included. How many advances would be done
without this knowledge? You wouldn't even have electric motors!

The theory of quantum mechanics is indispensable today. (Transistors
and lasers, just for starters.) This was developed by physicists with
no interest in applications. And some of it was probably gov't-funded.
Oh, and it was Einstein who thought up the concept of the laser, not
private industry.

How about GPS? NASA and the military have something to do with that,
no? And GPS depends crucially on relativistic calculations. Yet
another credit to Einstein. (Hey, when your GPS unit in your car
fails, it's not Einstein's fault. It's the fault of defective software
and databases.)

Check out http://www.scitechantiques.com/basic1/#Above_all_else_the_most_precious_possession_to_Homo_sapiens_is_life
..

Again, I don't know what percentage of basic research is govt-funded,
but I'm sure a lot of it is.

Well, just a comment on govt I perhaps should have made elsewhere as a
response to your anti-govt stuff:

From "The Blank Slate," by Steven Pinker:

"Adjudication by an armed authority appears to be the most effective
general violence-reduction technique ever invented. Though we debate
whether tweaks in criminal policy, such as executing murderers versus
locking them up for life, can reduce violence by a few percentage
points, there can be no debate on the massive effects of having a
criminal justice system as opposed to living in anarchy. The
shockingly high homicide rates of pre-state societies, with 10 to 60
percent of the men dying at the hands of other men, provide one kind
of evidence.[93]"

I don't think we'd have all these advances with such chaos all about.

How about patents? Patents provide incentive for private business to
develop all these things BY PROTECTING THEM FROM OTHER COMPANIES
RIPPING OFF THEIR INVENTIONS.

GOV'T ENFORCEMENT OF PATENTS strongly encourages private industry to
develop all these wonders you speak of.

>
> >   As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of places in this world
> >   where dinner plates are not full.
>
> @my house.
>
> >   And would your dinner plate be full if you didn't have a job that
> >   links directly back to government funded research in computing?
> >   Or would your job opportunities have been more along the line of
> >   migrant farmer if you grew up in a place that didn't invest in
> >   it's future?
>
> I left the government because I could not, with clear conscience, be
> a party to the waste, graft, mismanagement, and misappropriations of
> moneys that I saw therein.  It didn't change their ways but I sleep
> just the slightest bit better at night not being witness to it.
>
> >> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
> >> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
> >> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
> >> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
> >> NOT!
>
> >   The amonut of tax money you personnaly loose on making sure Campbell's
> >   measurements are accurate would not pay for that measuring cup.
>
> You have the poop on where my tax dollars went?  I'd love to track all
> the great deeds that my dollars are doing for my fellow citizen.  Yeah,
> right...

It's at the back of the instructions for Form 1040. OK, not in great
detail, but better than nothing.

>
>
>
> >> I get mine by looking outside.
>
> >   Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
> >   ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
> >   of people out of the way before the city was drowned.
>
> This is the same gov't that built the levies that pumped the basin dry
> so that New Orleans could move and rid itself of poor, disenfranchised
> blacks to populate this accident waiting to happen?  I'm _so_ proud of
> us!  Yeah, right....

Gov't does good and bad things. The bad are far easier to spot. Seek
and ye shall find. (See my other posts, for one.) I still say that
we'd be far worse off without govt. There'd be chaos. And Western
democracies don't typically go to war with each other, for one. (OK,
the Falkland Islands is an exception, but compared to wars started by
fascists, rather minor I'd say. OK, you might mention Iraq, but Iraq
is not a Western democracy [!]. Hey, nothing's perfect.)

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

What is your point here? You want people, govt, etc., to not take your
money, but you want to take rich people's money from them to make them
poor? Please explain.

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 6:24:43 PM
On 2010-03-27 19:24, Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>>> In article<00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
>>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
>>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
>>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
>>>> end of the world.
>
> Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
> Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
> of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
> vaccination.
>
>>
>>>    Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>>>    pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>>>    but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>>
>> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
>> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>
> They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar.

If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.

And is anyone realy surpriced that the US is at the top in
the diabetes statatistics ? No, of course not.

This is what WHO says (with my personal comments in brackets) :


* The prevention of type 1 diabetes is not yet possible and
   remains an objective for the future. The prevention of type
   2 diabetes has been shown to be possible and requires action now.

* Trials have shown that sustained lifestyle changes in diet and
   physical activity can reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes.
   For example, the Finnish Diabetes Prevention Study showed that
   a better diet, increased physical activity and modest weight loss
   could substantially reduce the development of type 2 diabetes in
   middle-aged adults at high risk.

* In all the studies conducted so far in people at high risk,
   lifestyle changes have been substantially more effective than
   the use of drugs.

* The scale of the problem requires population-wide measures to
   reduce levels of overweight and obesity, and physical inactivity.

[Is anyone expecting McDonalds and CocaCola to provide those measures ?
Or might there be need for some Gov't intervention here ?]

* Informed policy decisions on transport, urban design, and on food
   pricing and advertising can play an important part in reducing
   the population-wide risks of developing type 2 diabetes.

[Again, is anyone expecting the "free-market" to provide that ?]


http://www.who.int/diabetes/prevention/en/
http://www.who.int/diabetes/actionnow/en/







  What exactly are
> you asking for? To change the laws of nature? Or are you referring to
> curing diabetes itself -- in which case why did you focus on
> blindness? Just exactly how do you know how hard it is to cure
> diabetes and how much is being done about it? And if, as you say, big
> pharma has no incentive to develop a cure, and any and all gov't
> should be wiped out (I think just not having police and the military
> would be a disaster, no?) just what do you recommend be done about it?
>
>> business in anti-diabetics (<-oxymoron).  When I have to pay $1,000+
>> a month just for one synthetic pancreatic hormone to inject, imagine
>> the FUCKING $BILLIONS that the poor pharmas would lose out on with a
>> cure.  FWIW, that one hormone is only 1 of 3 I inject 7 times a day!
>> How about this great gov't of yours mandating that diabetics have a
>> right to life too?  Yeah, right...
>
> You'd be horribly worse off, or dead, otherwise. You can't mandate a
> cure. Do you know for a fact that there is no research being done to
> cure diabetes?
>
>>
>>>> I think a couple of people in an observatory could do this.  And, if
>>>> the time is skewed, it's still not going to matter when the dinner
>>>> plate is empty.
>>
>>>    You think wrong.  It's a lot harder than you estimate.  And that
>>>    dinner plate might be empty if not for the advances in food
>>>    production made possible through an advanced society, doing things
>>>    like the basic research that finds the data needed for those
>>>    advances.
>>
>> Advances in modern society yes, but this has nothing to do with your
>> gov't.  We have vastly superior communications and electronics.  None
>> of which have come from the gov't -- save for, of course, the internet
>> that Al (moron) Gore invented.
>
> You missed the point about "doing things like the basic research that
> finds the data needed for those advances." Your comment didn't address
> that.
>
> Also, where were these inventions made? Mostly in America and Europe.
> And what makes them different from the rest of the world? Better
> gov't. Gov't creates an environment in which businesses and
> individuals can succeed. (Patents come to mind.) More people want to
> emigrate to the US and Europe than probably any other country. Why?
>
> Even more: Radioactive isotopes, MRI (formerly known as NMR, nuclear
> magnetic resonance) are results of govt-sponsored research (well, at
> least the isotopes, if not both, but I bet NSF has something to do
> with both). The isotopes are made at accelerators that were built for
> doing NSF-funded basic research in nuclear and particle physics
> (sometimes collectively known as high energy physics). NMR was
> developed by physicists to study the magnetic properties of nuclei.
> Now it is a life-saving diagnostic tool. There are many other
> applications of NMR (aka MRI).
>
> Basic research by Maxwell, Ampere, Faraday, Coulomb, Lorentz,
> Einstein, Cavendish, and a host of other scientists, established the
> fundamental laws of electromagnetism, tidily summed up in the Maxwell
> Equations and the Lorentz force law. Admittedly I don't know how much
> of this was gov't-sponsored. NSF pays for at least some research
> performed at universities. Electromagnetism includes all wavelengths
> of light: radio, microwave, infrared, visible, ultraviolet, X-rays,
> Gamma rays. Optics is included. How many advances would be done
> without this knowledge? You wouldn't even have electric motors!
>
> The theory of quantum mechanics is indispensable today. (Transistors
> and lasers, just for starters.) This was developed by physicists with
> no interest in applications. And some of it was probably gov't-funded.
> Oh, and it was Einstein who thought up the concept of the laser, not
> private industry.
>
> How about GPS? NASA and the military have something to do with that,
> no? And GPS depends crucially on relativistic calculations. Yet
> another credit to Einstein. (Hey, when your GPS unit in your car
> fails, it's not Einstein's fault. It's the fault of defective software
> and databases.)
>
> Check out http://www.scitechantiques.com/basic1/#Above_all_else_the_most_precious_possession_to_Homo_sapiens_is_life
> .
>
> Again, I don't know what percentage of basic research is govt-funded,
> but I'm sure a lot of it is.
>
> Well, just a comment on govt I perhaps should have made elsewhere as a
> response to your anti-govt stuff:
>
>  From "The Blank Slate," by Steven Pinker:
>
> "Adjudication by an armed authority appears to be the most effective
> general violence-reduction technique ever invented. Though we debate
> whether tweaks in criminal policy, such as executing murderers versus
> locking them up for life, can reduce violence by a few percentage
> points, there can be no debate on the massive effects of having a
> criminal justice system as opposed to living in anarchy. The
> shockingly high homicide rates of pre-state societies, with 10 to 60
> percent of the men dying at the hands of other men, provide one kind
> of evidence.[93]"
>
> I don't think we'd have all these advances with such chaos all about.
>
> How about patents? Patents provide incentive for private business to
> develop all these things BY PROTECTING THEM FROM OTHER COMPANIES
> RIPPING OFF THEIR INVENTIONS.
>
> GOV'T ENFORCEMENT OF PATENTS strongly encourages private industry to
> develop all these wonders you speak of.
>
>>
>>>    As a matter of fact, there are still a lot of places in this world
>>>    where dinner plates are not full.
>>
>> @my house.
>>
>>>    And would your dinner plate be full if you didn't have a job that
>>>    links directly back to government funded research in computing?
>>>    Or would your job opportunities have been more along the line of
>>>    migrant farmer if you grew up in a place that didn't invest in
>>>    it's future?
>>
>> I left the government because I could not, with clear conscience, be
>> a party to the waste, graft, mismanagement, and misappropriations of
>> moneys that I saw therein.  It didn't change their ways but I sleep
>> just the slightest bit better at night not being witness to it.
>>
>>>> Wow.  Let me see.  I suppose I could have the gov't tax the bejesus out
>>>> of me to create HU-FUCKING-MONGOUS bereaucracy to make certain that my
>>>> can of Campbell's Cream of Sodium is 15 oz.  or I could just buy a 99
>>>> cent measuring cup to verify its contents. Hmm... that a tough decision.
>>>> NOT!
>>
>>>    The amonut of tax money you personnaly loose on making sure Campbell's
>>>    measurements are accurate would not pay for that measuring cup.
>>
>> You have the poop on where my tax dollars went?  I'd love to track all
>> the great deeds that my dollars are doing for my fellow citizen.  Yeah,
>> right...
>
> It's at the back of the instructions for Form 1040. OK, not in great
> detail, but better than nothing.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I get mine by looking outside.
>>
>>>    Tell that to the people who are alive today because we knew days
>>>    ahead that Huricane Katrina was headed for New Orleans, and got a lot
>>>    of people out of the way before the city was drowned.
>>
>> This is the same gov't that built the levies that pumped the basin dry
>> so that New Orleans could move and rid itself of poor, disenfranchised
>> blacks to populate this accident waiting to happen?  I'm _so_ proud of
>> us!  Yeah, right....
>
> Gov't does good and bad things. The bad are far easier to spot. Seek
> and ye shall find. (See my other posts, for one.) I still say that
> we'd be far worse off without govt. There'd be chaos. And Western
> democracies don't typically go to war with each other, for one. (OK,
> the Falkland Islands is an exception, but compared to wars started by
> fascists, rather minor I'd say. OK, you might mention Iraq, but Iraq
> is not a Western democracy [!]. Hey, nothing's perfect.)
>
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>>
>>   http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
> What is your point here? You want people, govt, etc., to not take your
> money, but you want to take rich people's money from them to make them
> poor? Please explain.
>
> AEF

0
Jan
3/27/2010 7:40:13 PM
On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 20:40:13 +0100, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight and
> generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises). So it's very
> much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.

You are too wrong.

There are two different types of diabetes. Type 1 can strike at any age 
(I know someone who was disgnosed at 18 months old). An autoimmune 
reaction kills off the part of the pancreas that manufactures insulin. My 
son was healthy, underweight if anything, etc. and he contracted it at 
the age of 11. There are many children like him.

And there is the myth that it can be caused by children eating too much 
sugar. That is exactly what it is - a myth.

Type 2 can often be caused by overweight, etc. But not always.

I am afraid that your view is shared by far too many ignorant people.

> And is anyone realy surpriced that the US is at the top in the diabetes
> statatistics ? No, of course not.

See above. I wouldn't be surprised at the type 2 statistics, mind.

> * The prevention of type 1 diabetes is not yet possible and
>    remains an objective for the future.

Exactly. If it were caused by lifestyle, it would be preventable.

> The prevention of type 2
>    diabetes has been shown to be possible and requires action now.

Exactly.

> * Trials have shown that sustained lifestyle changes in diet and
>    physical activity can reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes.

NOTE: type 2.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

0
Bob
3/27/2010 8:18:00 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>> the same.
>>>> bill
>>>> --
>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton   |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.

Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.

> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> experience total financial ruin? 

That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.

In the richest country on the planet?

We were the richest on the planet.  Where were you on Oct. 2008?

> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> Horrors!
> 

So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
They are exempt.  Gee, I wonder why that is.

> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates. 

They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend 
what is going to happen and even what already has happened.

I don't see how
> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
> 
> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> sound.
> 

Have you not read the bill?
The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in 
there.
0
GreyCloud
3/27/2010 10:05:39 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1de3b@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>> ..com>,
>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>> ups.com>,
>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>> ed
>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>> the same.
>>>>> bill
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>> ,
>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>> =A0Three wolves
>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>> =A0
>>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>> Horrors!
> 
> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
> that tab?
> 
> 
Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
0
GreyCloud
3/27/2010 10:06:31 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:

> How about GPS? NASA and the military have something to do with that,
> no? And GPS depends crucially on relativistic calculations. Yet
> another credit to Einstein.

Actually, GPS depends on orbital mechanics, extremely precise time as
well as doppler effect. (is doppler part of relativistic theory ?).

It does not detract from the fact that it was a US government sponsored
system (controlled by the military).

It was Bill Clinton (not long before he left) who overruled the military
and forced them to stop purposefully degrading the public signals in
order to enable many new civilian GPS applications and this spurred very
fast development of GPS in many new uses (including cars).

Al Gore is unfortunatly wrongly quoted (and ridiculed) for "inventing
the internet". What he did do is "commercialise the internet" by
removing the rules that had prevented its commercialisation in the 1980s.



There are things which a government CAN do better than business. There
are things business CAN do better than government.


There are large businesses which are extremely inefficient (think about
the legacy telcos). There are things which some governments do very
inefficiently. Just because a government has an inefficient department
doesn't mean that the purpose of that department cannot be done
effiencly by a government.

There are many things which goverments do quite efficiently. And there
are things which governments take on exactly because private business
cannot do efficiently. The governmnet judges that while the operation is
inefficient, it still benefits the country more than it costs.

There is no black and white.  Those who claim that all government is
evil and that it can't do anythinfg efficiently are not realistic and
will harm a nation in the end.
0
JF
3/27/2010 10:17:59 PM
On Mar 27, 12:26=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.=
com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegro=
ups=3D
> >..com>,
> >> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.google=
gro=3D
> >ups.com>,
> >> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to=
 ne=3D
> >ed
> >> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> >> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >> >> the same.
>
> >> >> bill
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> >> University of Scranton |
> >> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thin=
gs
> >> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>
> >> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> >> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
> >> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0Healt=
hcare=3D
> >,
> >> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
> >> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (di m=
ok' ra see) n. =3D
> >=3DA0Three wolves
> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <std.d=
isclaimer.h> =3D
> >=3DA0
>
> >Hi Bill,
>
> >There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> >And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> >disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
> >So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >Horrors!
>
> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> that tab?

As Nomad said: Insufficient data. Besides, I'm speaking of those who
cannot afford the health bills *you* pay. Are you in financial ruin?
Are unable to pay for your medical care?

VAXMAN, you have no insurance? If you do, then others are chipping in
for you. That's how insurance works, no?

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

0
Alan
3/27/2010 10:28:19 PM
GreyCloud wrote:

> Have you not read the bill?
> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in 
> there.


If the bill that ends up being law is flawed, one needs to compare the
plan as originally presented by the president, and then find out whether
the changes imposed by congress/senate were imporvements or caused the
whole plan to become flawed because of the compromises that were imposed.

This process determines who should be blamed for the flawed bill: the
president or whoever forced those compromises into the law.
0
JF
3/27/2010 10:29:59 PM
 On Mar 27, 3:40 pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-03-27 19:24, Alan Feldman wrote:
>
> > On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article<tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> >>> In article<00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
> >>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> >>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
> >>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> >>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> >>>> end of the world.
>
> > Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
> > Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
> > of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
> > vaccination.
>
> >>>    Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
> >>>    pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
> >>>    but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>
> >> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
> >> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>
> > They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar.
>
> If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
> and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
> So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.

It is a risk factor, not a cause. There are people who are overweight
and who do not develop diabetes. Same for lack of exercise. All this
means that your odds of developing type-2 diabetes is reduced by
losing weight and exercising.

>
> And is anyone realy surpriced that the US is at the top in
> the diabetes statatistics ? No, of course not.

No.

>
> This is what WHO says (with my personal comments in brackets) :
>
> * The prevention of type 1 diabetes is not yet possible and
>    remains an objective for the future. The prevention of type
>    2 diabetes has been shown to be possible and requires action now.

You can reduce the number of people who get it, but some will get it
despite their having favorable lifestyles.

>
> * Trials have shown that sustained lifestyle changes in diet and
>    physical activity can reduce the risk of developing type 2 diabetes.
>    For example, the Finnish Diabetes Prevention Study showed that
>    a better diet, increased physical activity and modest weight loss
>    could substantially reduce the development of type 2 diabetes in
>    middle-aged adults at high risk.

Like I said before: risk. Out of those who do all the right things, a
few will be unlucky and still get diabetes. For them it was not
prevented. Genetic factors also play an important role.

>
> * In all the studies conducted so far in people at high risk,
>    lifestyle changes have been substantially more effective than
>    the use of drugs.

Yes, I have no trouble believing that.

>
> * The scale of the problem requires population-wide measures to
>    reduce levels of overweight and obesity, and physical inactivity.

Yes.

>
> [Is anyone expecting McDonalds and CocaCola to provide those measures ?
> Or might there be need for some Gov't intervention here ?]

Well, Coca Cola comes in diet versions.

>
> * Informed policy decisions on transport, urban design, and on food
>    pricing and advertising can play an important part in reducing
>    the population-wide risks of developing type 2 diabetes.

I think education should be rather high on the list.

>
> [Again, is anyone expecting the "free-market" to provide that ?]

Not I.

By the way, quote-trimming can significantly reduce "post-obesity."
[...]
AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 10:55:28 PM
On Mar 27, 6:05=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegro=
ups.com>,
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googleg=
roups.com>,
> >>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to n=
eed
> >>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>> the same.
> >>>> bill
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thing=
s
> >>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> >> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
> >> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthc=
are,
> >> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
> >> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) =
n. =A0Three wolves
> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> University of Scranton =A0 |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.=
h> =A0
>
> > Hi Bill,
>
> > There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> > And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>
> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.

You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary. Excluding
some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest. The still
cost the same huge amount and many people who would die without them
cannot afford insurance. And if they do survive, they are not able to
get insurance due to pre-existing conditions.

>
> > Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> > nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> > without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> > disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> > experience total financial ruin?
>
> That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.
>
> In the richest country on the planet?
>
> We were the richest on the planet. =A0Where were you on Oct. 2008?

The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
who suffered?

>
> > So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> > Horrors!
>
> So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
> They are exempt. =A0Gee, I wonder why that is.

I think you're missing the point again.

>
> > Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates.
>
> They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend
> what is going to happen and even what already has happened.

Dumbed-down !=3D illiterate

>
> I don't see how
>
> > funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
>
> > Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
> > about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
> > economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> > sound.
>
> Have you not read the bill?
> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance. =A0It's in
> there.

I have not read the bill in detail. Nowhere have I said I supported
this exact bill. The idea is fine. The details may not be, but it may
well be a good step forward. I am supportive of the idea. I am trying
to show that not all people can do everything on their own. Many,
through no fault of their own, will face needless illness, death, and
financial ruin without some sort of universal insurance.

What exactly is your point?

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 11:05:34 PM
On Mar 27, 6:17=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > How about GPS? NASA and the military have something to do with that,
> > no? And GPS depends crucially on relativistic calculations. Yet
> > another credit to Einstein.
>
> Actually, GPS depends on orbital mechanics, extremely precise time as
> well as doppler effect. (is doppler part of relativistic theory ?).

Well, I don't normally read your posts, but I happened to catch this.
So I hereby respond.

The Doppler effect on light is altered because the speed of light is
constant regardless of the motion of the source. But it is not a
result of relativity, if that's what you mean. NTL, relativity, both
general and special, are required in the calculations to make it
work.

>
> It does not detract from the fact that it was a US government sponsored
> system (controlled by the military).

Absolutely.

>
> It was Bill Clinton (not long before he left) who overruled the military
> and forced them to stop purposefully degrading the public signals in
> order to enable many new civilian GPS applications and this spurred very
> fast development of GPS in many new uses (including cars).
>
> Al Gore is unfortunatly wrongly quoted (and ridiculed) for "inventing
> the internet". What he did do is "commercialise the internet" by
> removing the rules that had prevented its commercialisation in the 1980s.
>
> There are things which a government CAN do better than business. There
> are things business CAN do better than government.

Yep.
>
> There are large businesses which are extremely inefficient (think about
> the legacy telcos). There are things which some governments do very
> inefficiently. Just because a government has an inefficient department
> doesn't mean that the purpose of that department cannot be done
> effiencly by a government.

Absolutely. But this is a far more general effect. Just because
something doesn't work in one particular instance, doesn't mean that
it can't be made to work. It's like saying: "Look. North Korea has a
government, and look how bad it is! Therefore all government is bad."

>
> There are many things which goverments do quite efficiently. And there
> are things which governments take on exactly because private business
> cannot do efficiently. The governmnet judges that while the operation is
> inefficient, it still benefits the country more than it costs.
>
> There is no black and white. =A0Those who claim that all government is
> evil and that it can't do anythinfg efficiently are not realistic and
> will harm a nation in the end.

Without government wouldn't we suffer a large number of monopolies who
could raise prices much higher than if they had competitors?
Efficiency aside?

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 11:16:26 PM
On Mar 27, 6:06=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroup=
s.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegr=
oups=3D
> >> ..com>,
> >>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes=
:
>
> >>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.google=
gro=3D
> >> ups.com>,
> >>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to =
ne=3D
> >> ed
> >>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>> the same.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thin=
gs
> >>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> >>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provid=
e
> >>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0Heal=
thcare=3D
> >> ,
> >>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money get=
s
> >>> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >>> bill
>
> >>> --
> >>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (di =
mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
er.
> >>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <std.=
disclaimer.h> =3D
> >> =3DA0
>
> >> Hi Bill,
>
> >> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> >> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> >> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
> >> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >> Horrors!
>
> > I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> > that tab?
>
> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us=
..

So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
"early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 11:18:18 PM
In article <00A9B179.D3192267@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <4bae86e6$0$32006$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>GreyCloud wrote:
>>
>>> Have you not read the bill?
>>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
>>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
>>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in 
>>> there.
>>
>>
>>If the bill that ends up being law is flawed, one needs to compare the
>>plan as originally presented by the president, and then find out whether
>>the changes imposed by congress/senate were imporvements or caused the
>>whole plan to become flawed because of the compromises that were imposed.
> 
> Save that the president never presented any plan.  He handed the whole
> task off to the elitists in Congress.

Exactly.  He neither presented a plan nor accepted any input from the
opposition.  The only compromises were with special interest groups
(e.g. big pharma and labor) and bribes (i.e., special deals for various
senators and congressmen).  None of the various changes had anything
to do with helping the average citizen, unless you call siccing another
16,500 IRS agents on us "helping".  The bill doesn't even remove the
preexisting condition problem from children until 2014 even though
Obama repeatedly (even after he signed it) said it did; Pelosi didn't
realize exactly how true her words were when she said "We won't know
what's in the bill until after we pass it". 

Collecting taxes for 10 years to pay for 6 years is not a flaw; it
is the only way they could make it look like it doesn't increase the
deficit.


George Cook
cook@wvnet.edu
0
cook
3/27/2010 11:18:43 PM
On Mar 27, 12:28=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <e314b307-4181-4725-b4b1-f8758c72c...@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.=
com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 25, 10:15=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <DZSdnaDigaXq9jbWnZ2dnUVZ_vydn...@earthlink.com>,
> >> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 "John Reagan" <johnrrea...@earthlink.net> writ=
es:
>
> >> > "Bill Gunshannon" <billg...@cs.uofs.edu> wrote in message
> >> >news:81180tFupeU5@mid.individual.net...
>
> >> >> If you need the healthcare and there is no other way for you to pay=
 fo=3D
> >r
> >> >> it yourself, what "'valid" reason do you have for not doing the job=
 an=3D
> >d
> >> >> forcing others to carry them?
>
> >> > So when I'm 50yo, laidoff from my job, COBRA runs out, and my diabet=
es =3D
> >is
> >> > getting worse, I can just hop down to my local recruiting office and=
 si=3D
> >gn up
> >> > asking for that "free insurance"? =3DA0They aren't that desparate fo=
r can=3D
> >on
> >> > fodder are they?
>
> >> By 50 you should have already done everything you needed to do to take
> >> care of things like that. =3DA0You had at least 32 years of workable t=
ime
> >> to do it. =3DA0And, while I don't know if the other services have chan=
ged
> >> their rules to accomodate it yet, you can join the Army at any age up
> >> to 42. =3DA0That age being based on making sure someone coming in has =
the
> >> legal ability to qualify for a retirement after 20 years of work. =3DA=
050%
> >> of your pay at the time of retirement and healthcare for life. =3DA0Na=
me
> >> one civilian company that offers an equivalent.
>
> >Suppose its diabetes type I. Just how would you take care of that? Or
>
> 7 injections a day?

Just exactly how does that take care of being laid off at 50, running
out of COBRA, and on top of that a case of worsening diabetes? I
didn't just mean treating your type-1 diabetes. I meant it in the
context of the John Reagan's and Bill's posts.

> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 11:22:30 PM
On Mar 27, 6:06=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroup=
s.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegr=
oups=3D
> >> ..com>,
> >>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes=
:
>
> >>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.google=
gro=3D
> >> ups.com>,
> >>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to =
ne=3D
> >> ed
> >>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>> the same.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thin=
gs
> >>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> >>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provid=
e
> >>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0Heal=
thcare=3D
> >> ,
> >>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money get=
s
> >>> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >>> bill
>
> >>> --
> >>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (di =
mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
er.
> >>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <std.=
disclaimer.h> =3D
> >> =3DA0
>
> >> Hi Bill,
>
> >> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> >> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> >> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
> >> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >> Horrors!
>
> > I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> > that tab?
>
> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us=
..

So there are some problems with the bill. What's your point? That it's
a bad bill? That there shouldn't even be a good version of the bill?
That we should scrap the bill and simply give up?

Please explain.

AEF
0
Alan
3/27/2010 11:26:35 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:

>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
> 
> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary. Excluding
> some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest.


If you are a for-profit hospital and the hospital across the street (a
competitor) has just installed an MRI (or whatever) machine, you are
pushed to install one yourself otherwise you risk losing some business
to your competitor.

The end result is that the neighbourhood has more MRI capacity than it
*really* needs, and to please shareholders, each hospital will try to
increase usage of their MRI machine to its maximum to increase revenues
to make that expensive investment pay off.

And that means putting people though it when it isn't absolutely
necessary and billing the insurance companies for this "essential" test
as declared by the doctors.

In a government run system, they evaluate how much capacity is REALLY
necessary and buy enough of those machines to fill that capacity. In the
end, this costs less because not only are fewer machines needed, but you
lso hve lower operating costs due to having fewer machines per capita.

(Note that the decision is still the doctor's, but they know that there
is limited capacity for those machines and only send those cases that
really need it.). And this is where less important cases are put on
waiting lists because their need for the machine is not urgent/necessary.

And one should note that Cuba, with far less "high tech" medecine, but
with a good national health care plan that takes care of the basics, has
higher life expectancy than in the USA.

> The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
> who suffered?

There were casualties from many countries. However, the Bush regime has
inflicted far more harm upon the USA (and indirectly to the rest of the
world) than Osama Bin Ladin. He has killed more americans (invasion of
iraq), reduced liberty/freedom in the USA (patriot act), and harmed the
airline industry with all the silly rules that were imposed around the
world.  Thios is one good example of a governmnet harming its own people.

0
JF
3/28/2010 12:25:26 AM
In article <holmut$mb9$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-03-27 19:24, Alan Feldman wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>
>>>> In article<00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>
>>>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
>>>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big pharma
>>>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
>>>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
>>>>> end of the world.
>>
>> Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
>> Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
>> of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
>> vaccination.
>>
>>>
>>>>    Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>>>>    pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>>>>    but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>>>
>>> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
>>> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>>
>> They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar.
>
>If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
>and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
>So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.

Well, you're wrong.  It's an auto-immune response.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 12:59:08 AM
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-03-27 19:24, Alan Feldman wrote:
>> On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 
>>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>
>>>> In article<00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  
>>>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>
>>>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a 
>>>>> great
>>>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big 
>>>>> pharma
>>>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to 
>>>>> vaccinate
>>>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not 
>>>>> the
>>>>> end of the world.
>>
>> Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
>> Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
>> of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
>> vaccination.
>>
>>>
>>>>    Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>>>>    pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>>>>    but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>>>
>>> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
>>> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>>
>> They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar.
> 
> If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
> and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
> So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.
> 

There are at least two types of diabetes!  Type 1 is apparently due to 
destruction of the pancreatic beta cells that produce insulin.  The only
treatment is injecting insulin.  The injections must be carefully 
matched to the intake of carbohydrates.

Type 2 diabetes occurs when the body develops insulin resistance.  It is 
believed that the cause is over indulgence in sugar. Type 2 diabetes is 
usually treated with pills and diet.
0
Richard
3/28/2010 1:05:56 AM
In article <4bae86e6$0$32006$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> Have you not read the bill?
>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in 
>> there.
>
>
>If the bill that ends up being law is flawed, one needs to compare the
>plan as originally presented by the president, and then find out whether
>the changes imposed by congress/senate were imporvements or caused the
>whole plan to become flawed because of the compromises that were imposed.

Save that the president never presented any plan.  He handed the whole
task off to the elitists in Congress.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 1:19:19 AM
In article <3d7d20be-7a81-42de-bdef-6cf98dbeda2a@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 27, 12:26=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.=
>com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegro=
>ups=3D
>> >..com>,
>> >> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.google=
>gro=3D
>> >ups.com>,
>> >> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to=
> ne=3D
>> >ed
>> >> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>
>> >> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>> >> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>> >> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> >> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>> >> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>> >> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>> >> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>> >> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>> >> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> >> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>> >> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>> >> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> >> >> the same.
>>
>> >> >> bill
>>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> >> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> >> >> University of Scranton |
>> >> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>> >> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>> >> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>> >> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>> >> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thin=
>gs
>> >> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>>
>> >> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>> >> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>> >> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>> >> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0Healt=
>hcare=3D
>> >,
>> >> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>> >> wasted on are not part of that.
>>
>> >> bill
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (di m=
>ok' ra see) n. =3D
>> >=3DA0Three wolves
>> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
>r.
>> >> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
>> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <std.d=
>isclaimer.h> =3D
>> >=3DA0
>>
>> >Hi Bill,
>>
>> >There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>> >And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>> >Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>> >nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>> >without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>> >disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>> >experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>> >So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>> >Horrors!
>>
>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
>> that tab?
>
>As Nomad said: Insufficient data. Besides, I'm speaking of those who
>cannot afford the health bills *you* pay. Are you in financial ruin?
>Are unable to pay for your medical care?

I can't afford the health bills I pay.


>VAXMAN, you have no insurance? If you do, then others are chipping in
>for you. That's how insurance works, no?

I have no insurance.  Try to get it with my illnesses.  You can but 
the premium surcharges make it unaffordable.  Couple that unafford-
ability with HUGE phamaceutical costs and it's even worse.  Having a
lawyer 'round-the-clock doesn't help matters any either.  


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 1:19:20 AM
In article <ytmdnfyOge_kNjPWnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> On 2010-03-27 19:24, Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 24, 11:56 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<tjZqiY$m7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, 
>>>> koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>>>
>>>>> In article<00A9AEB2.49505...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  
>>>>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>>
>>>>>> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a 
>>>>>> great
>>>>>> many others of my generation.  Now, the rackettering between big 
>>>>>> pharma
>>>>>> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to 
>>>>>> vaccinate
>>>>>> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> end of the world.
>>>
>>> Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are merely "unpleasant"?
>>> Vaccines prevent these. Polio was almost entirely wiped off the face
>>> of the earth. Vaccines are to be given due credit. And Gov't mandates
>>> vaccination.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>    Unless your one of those who died from measles, mumps, or chicken
>>>>>    pox.  A few more lost their sight or hearing.  Not a large number,
>>>>>    but would you want your kid to be one of them?
>>>>
>>>> More die and go blind from diabetes each year.  Why the fuck haven't
>>>> they addressed that?  I'll tell you why.  Because it's a big fucking
>>>
>>> They have! It's called controlling your blood sugar.
>> 
>> If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
>> and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
>> So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.
>> 
>
>There are at least two types of diabetes!  Type 1 is apparently due to 
>destruction of the pancreatic beta cells that produce insulin.  The only
>treatment is injecting insulin.  The injections must be carefully 
>matched to the intake of carbohydrates.

Actually, pretty much anything consumed with caloric content... carbs,
fats, protients, etc.  Carbs are particularly nasty in that they cause
quick spikes in blood sugar.  People don't realize that something like
potato or noodles (noodles are everywhere in little Italy proNJ) cause
blood sugar to rise more than some candy can.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 1:39:01 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I can't afford the health bills I pay.

You should move to Canada then. You'd still have access to Guiness beer,
and still have plenty to complain about our government, but at least
your health care would be affordable :-)

And there is a place of worship for you in Montr�al:
http://dublinpub.ca  (click on "english" on top right).

There is also an Apple store. So everything you need to survive :-)

(It had to move next door due to some development from its original well
hidden location).
0
JF
3/28/2010 2:05:51 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Actually, pretty much anything consumed with caloric content... carbs,
> fats, protients, etc.  Carbs are particularly nasty in that they cause
> quick spikes in blood sugar.  People don't realize that something like
> potato or noodles (noodles are everywhere in little Italy proNJ) cause
> blood sugar to rise more than some candy can.

Complex carbs (such as potatoes or pasta) are converted to blood sugar
at a slower pace, which makes sugar level management easier, especially
with patients who still produce some insulin (but not enough).

Another thing not mentioned is that high blood sugar negatively affects
the brain. More important problem than blindness or feeling in the feet.
0
JF
3/28/2010 2:09:03 AM
In article <4baeb981$0$14776$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I can't afford the health bills I pay.
>
>You should move to Canada then. You'd still have access to Guiness beer,
>and still have plenty to complain about our government, but at least
>your health care would be affordable :-)
>
>And there is a place of worship for you in Montr�al:
>http://dublinpub.ca  (click on "english" on top right).

:)  Been there...


>There is also an Apple store. So everything you need to survive :-)

....and the Apple store at Rue St. Catherine's.


>(It had to move next door due to some development from its original well
>hidden location).

?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 5:58:43 AM
In article <4baeba40$0$14776$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Actually, pretty much anything consumed with caloric content... carbs,
>> fats, protients, etc.  Carbs are particularly nasty in that they cause
>> quick spikes in blood sugar.  People don't realize that something like
>> potato or noodles (noodles are everywhere in little Italy proNJ) cause
>> blood sugar to rise more than some candy can.
>
>Complex carbs (such as potatoes or pasta) are converted to blood sugar
>at a slower pace, which makes sugar level management easier, especially
>with patients who still produce some insulin (but not enough).

You'd best check the GI on those complex carbs!  


>Another thing not mentioned is that high blood sugar negatively affects
>the brain. More important problem than blindness or feeling in the feet.

....as does low.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/28/2010 6:19:34 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

>>And there is a place of worship for you in Montr�al:
>>http://dublinpub.ca  (click on "english" on top right).
> 
> :)  Been there...

Its old location on University street was very much "not obvious"
(behind a parking lot). Last time I was there, there was construction
scaffolding hiding the whole wall on the front, and I was bringing
friends and I wasn't even sure if it was still there until I found the
door was unlocked :-)

It wasn't the kind of location that tourists would find easily unless
they stayed at the Queen Elizabeth hotel (1 large block away). It is in
a business district, not a tourist one.

So I am a bit surprised you found the place, but on the other hand, not
surprised you went there ! Most of the tourist pubs would be on Crescent
or Mountain streets (english side) or on St-Denis (french side).

The new location for the Old Dublin is former location for a TGI
Friday's restaurant. Not sure when they moved there, I was last at that
pub a few years ago.
0
JF
3/28/2010 7:26:45 AM
JF Mezei wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
> 
>> Have you not read the bill?
>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in 
>> there.
> 
> 
> If the bill that ends up being law is flawed, one needs to compare the
> plan as originally presented by the president, and then find out whether
> the changes imposed by congress/senate were imporvements or caused the
> whole plan to become flawed because of the compromises that were imposed.
> 
> This process determines who should be blamed for the flawed bill: the
> president or whoever forced those compromises into the law.

In this case the 2700 page bill that was passed was written by the 
Insurance industry.  I don't know of any politician with kind of time on 
his hands that would be capable of writing this bill.  It gets worse 
tho, as politicians keep sending new changes to the bill to the 
president for signing after the bill was passed.  The bad part is that 
the people will be taxed now and won't be able to participate till 2014.
Plus there will be 16,000 new IRS agents hired to enforce the tax 
collection.
0
GreyCloud
3/28/2010 10:17:28 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>> bill
>>>> --
>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>> University of Scranton   |
>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
>>> Hi Bill,
>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
> 
> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.

Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
business that way.

> Excluding
> some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest. The still
> cost the same huge amount and many people who would die without them
> cannot afford insurance. And if they do survive, they are not able to
> get insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
>

But that isn't what was on CSPAN when the bill was in debate.  They 
promised that pre-existing conditions were not going to be a factor.
They lied.

>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>> experience total financial ruin?
>> That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.
>>
>> In the richest country on the planet?
>>
>> We were the richest on the planet.  Where were you on Oct. 2008?
> 
> The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
> who suffered?

The central banks robbed the world.  As per Katherine Austin Fitz, ex 
HUD exec, called it a financial coupe.  This was caused by stupid 
politicians believing the banking lobby to repeal the Glass-Steigler Act 
of 1933 that Roosevelt signed into law to keep the banks out of the 
financial markets and brokerage firms.  Remember the dot com bust?  That 
came after the repeal.  Not much left and now the bankers are going to 
pick over whats left.

> 
>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>> Horrors!
>> So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
>> They are exempt.  Gee, I wonder why that is.
> 
> I think you're missing the point again.
> 

The fact that the politicians wrote an exemption for themselves?

>>> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates.
>> They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend
>> what is going to happen and even what already has happened.
> 
> Dumbed-down != illiterate
> 

Most are illiterate to the point that they are not taught to think for 
themselves.  That is known as dumbing down, and add in the 
indoctrination from the education system and you have people that just 
do not care or will even consider looking at the facts.  They'd rather 
just sit in front of the TV and watch football and eat chips and beer.

>> I don't see how
>>
>>> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
>>> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
>>> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
>>> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
>>> sound.
>> Have you not read the bill?
>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in
>> there.
> 
> I have not read the bill in detail. Nowhere have I said I supported
> this exact bill. The idea is fine. The details may not be, but it may
> well be a good step forward. I am supportive of the idea. I am trying
> to show that not all people can do everything on their own. Many,
> through no fault of their own, will face needless illness, death, and
> financial ruin without some sort of universal insurance.
>

And this same bill will also cause more job losses.  How?  John Deere 
said it will cost them this year an additional $150,000,000.  Their 
solution?  Move it overseas to escape the taxes.  And that is just one 
company.
Why should anybody have to pay for something that they don't want?
Where does it say in the U.S. Constitution that they can force you buy 
anything?


> What exactly is your point?
> 

That we are now losing more of our freedoms.  Don't be too surprised if 
Obama cancels the November elections.

0
GreyCloud
3/28/2010 10:28:25 PM
JF Mezei wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> 
>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary. Excluding
>> some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest.
> 
> 
> If you are a for-profit hospital and the hospital across the street (a
> competitor) has just installed an MRI (or whatever) machine, you are
> pushed to install one yourself otherwise you risk losing some business
> to your competitor.
> 
> The end result is that the neighbourhood has more MRI capacity than it
> *really* needs, and to please shareholders, each hospital will try to
> increase usage of their MRI machine to its maximum to increase revenues
> to make that expensive investment pay off.
> 
> And that means putting people though it when it isn't absolutely
> necessary and billing the insurance companies for this "essential" test
> as declared by the doctors.
> 
> In a government run system, they evaluate how much capacity is REALLY
> necessary and buy enough of those machines to fill that capacity. In the
> end, this costs less because not only are fewer machines needed, but you
> lso hve lower operating costs due to having fewer machines per capita.
> 
> (Note that the decision is still the doctor's, but they know that there
> is limited capacity for those machines and only send those cases that
> really need it.). And this is where less important cases are put on
> waiting lists because their need for the machine is not urgent/necessary.
> 
> And one should note that Cuba, with far less "high tech" medecine, but
> with a good national health care plan that takes care of the basics, has
> higher life expectancy than in the USA.
> 
>> The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
>> who suffered?
> 
> There were casualties from many countries. However, the Bush regime has
> inflicted far more harm upon the USA (and indirectly to the rest of the
> world) than Osama Bin Ladin. He has killed more americans (invasion of
> iraq), reduced liberty/freedom in the USA (patriot act), and harmed the
> airline industry with all the silly rules that were imposed around the
> world.  Thios is one good example of a governmnet harming its own people.
> 

Pretty much on the mark.  Plus the health care will be doled out.
There goes the system.
0
GreyCloud
3/28/2010 10:29:41 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>>>> ..com>,
>>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>>>> ups.com>,
>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>>>> ed
>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>>>> ,
>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>> bill
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>>>> =A0Three wolves
>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>>>> =A0
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>> Horrors!
>>> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
>>> that tab?
>> Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
> 
> So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
> "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!

What makes you think everything will be fine?
The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.
We are technically down $27 trillion.  There is no way that even your 
great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off.
Debt slaves anyone?
0
GreyCloud
3/28/2010 10:31:44 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>>>> ..com>,
>>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>>>> ups.com>,
>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>>>> ed
>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>>>> ,
>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>> bill
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>>>> =A0Three wolves
>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>>>> =A0
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>> Horrors!
>>> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
>>> that tab?
>> Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
> 
> So there are some problems with the bill. What's your point? That it's
> a bad bill? That there shouldn't even be a good version of the bill?
> That we should scrap the bill and simply give up?
> 
> Please explain.

To get the facts, go read the bill.  I'll admit it is 2700+ pages, but 
then the politicians said they don't have time to read it... let alone 
write it.  So who wrote it?  The insurance industry... Business week.
The bill has more in it than just health care.
0
GreyCloud
3/28/2010 10:33:12 PM
On Mar 24, 9:13 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <113b22ef-ff52-4160-9a03-d06bec44b...@b30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 17, 9:14 pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article <tdednXxCrOx92jzWnZ2dnUVZ_gKdn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
>
[...]
> >One of the most impressive things the US Govt has done is to greatly
> >reduce air and water pollution. As a kid in the late 1960s and early
> >1970s I remember all to well how disgustingly dirty and slimy the
> >Raritan River was. I remember the really, really, filthy air in NYC.
> >You could literally see it from far away.Both are FAR cleaner now. The
> >difference is like night and day. There is no haze visible now when
> >viewing Manhattan from afar.
>
> By taking those industrial plants that produced clear out of the country.
> A relocation of the polution elsewhere on the planet does not, IMO, help
> the overall environment.

Catalytic converters do not move pollution to other countries. Nor do
scrubbers. Business moves plants overseas mostly for lower labor
costs. Other countries are free to make their own pollution laws.
Sorry, but we simply disagree on this one.

>
> >> Government does not produce food.
>
> >Gov't keeps the food supply safe. Would you eat at a restaurant that
> >failed inspection or didn't even have an inspection? And would you
> >trust any company that claimed its product was "organic" without some
> >kind of central authoritative, enforceable definition? (Not that
> >organic foods are necessarily healthier. Truth in labeling is what I'm
> >getting at here.)
>
> But the gov't does not produce food.  My son is going to college for

So? Why should the gov't produce food? I never said they did. They
help keep it safe.

> culinary and has worked several country club dining facilities as well
> as fast and menu restaurants.  Don't fool yourself that a "satisfactory"
> inspection means your food is any better.  "Organic" is a brainwash to
> charge more.
>

Has your son seen restaurants that didn't have a "satisfactory"
report? You need two to compare. Not sure if such restaurants can even
stay open. But what if there were no inspections at all? It seems to
me that there'd be more problems. Just what is he comparing
"satisfactory" to?

You're right about "organic". In fact, in some cases it's actually
poison. In "The Blank Slate," p. 229, Steven Pinker writes, ". . . one
variety of natural potato had to be withdrawn from the market because
it proved to be toxic to people[29]." The problem with organic is that
the plants are forced to develop their own toxins, which, as we see
here, can in some cases be worse than the usual method using
pesticides and what not.

Actually, I already *did* say that organic did not imply healthier;
you simply rephrased it.

My point was fraud, not what it's fraud about. Is it organic or not,
and what is the definition of organic? While not perfect, it seems to
me that the FDA is probably the best choice for this. And the term
"organic" was abused by food producers until the FDA (or whoever)
stepped in with a -- hopefully rigorous and precise -- definition.

> >> Government does not build houses.
>
> >Gov't establishes code to keep buildings safe. I'm not sure about FL,
> >but did home builders voluntarily build much stronger buildings after
> >Hurricane Andrew? I doubt it. This paid off big time when Hurricane
> >Wilma struck FL.
>
> In the proNJ, the gov't establishes codes to see to it that more and more
> fees can be tacked on the the building and sale of a home.  No single one
> makes the home better IMHO.  Just more expensive and more dollar fodder in
> the pigs trough in Trenton.
>
> >> Government does not cure disease.
>
> >The gov't has all children injected with vaccines to prevent them from
> >getting all sorts of horrible ills, thereby obviating the need to come
> >up with cures (which would be far more expensive, I think).
>
> The government only made a mandate.  The pharma developed these vaccines.

Why are you continually complaining about what gov't doesn't do? What
is the point? Actually, they fund research that does work on health
issues. And pharma has little interest in vaccines. By your own
argument they have no interest in part because they can make more
money treating symptoms of these diseases with higher-priced drugs.

>
> When I grew up, I had measles, mumps and chicken pox and so did a great
> many others of my generation.  Now, the racketeering between big pharma
> and the gov't, forces gunk into the veins of young children to vaccinate
> for these common diseases.  Getting sick is unpleasant but it's not the
> end of the world.

Smallpox, polio, tuberculosis -- these are a little more than simply
"unpleasant". I'll take the govt/pharma vaccines instead, thank you.

>
> >> Government *DOES* tax the dead.
>
> >The dead don't own anything, and therefore cannot be taxed. Your sig
> >says something about making rich people poor. Isn't this what the
> >estate tax does in part? It is to prevent income inequality from
> >getting far worse than it is now.
>
> Right.  That's way, after all the taxes from my grandmother's death, a
> whole 4 cents was left to split between my mother, 2 sisters and me.
> Of course, the gov't won't issue me a check for 1 cent to reimburse the
> taxed estate so I was even cheated out of my 1 cent inheritance by the
> gov't.

YOU were cheated, not your grandmother. You are not dead. Therefore
the dead were not taxed.

>
> >> Government does not dig graves -- save for the one for our economy.
>
> >There's plenty of blame to go around to plenty of parties on this one.
>
> I can name 2 parties!

So Democrats and Republicans are to blame for not preventing others
from doing evil? No blame for the evildoers themselves? I guess that
means criminals are not to blame if they are not caught, convicted,
and jailed. No, those two parties are not blameless, but they aren't
the only "evildoers."

>
> >Here's some stuff that gov't does well:
>
> >What the gov't does right:
>
> >Creating a environment (legal and monetary) in which businesses and
> >individuals can succeed. This, and high-quality universities, is what
> >draws people from around the world to the U.S. in numbers that exceeds
> >that of all other countries. (This is long-term average; obviously
> >gov't screws things up too, as in the current Financial Debacle.)
>
> I don't know what rock you've been under but take a look about and that
> "environment" they've created has left millions withoiut employment and
> more and more all the time.

Check the history books. There was a Great Depression in which the
unemployment rate reached 25%. We recovered then and we can recover
now. And we are still the leading economy in the world. The dollar
still rules. Millions more would come here if we'd let them. And why?
Because they can succeed here like nowhere else. Yes, there will be
times of high unemployment, but they still keep coming. Can you name
some countries that are doing better? And if so, can you tell us how?
And while there will be recessions, how would it be without any
government? There'd be chaos. As I posted elsewhere, pre-state
societies had 10-60% of all males murdered. You'd call that an
improvement? I'll take a Depression (from which we recovered!) over
that.

>
> >Weights and measures, and standards:
>
> >SI: Governments (primarily the U.S. and France, I believe) determine
> >the SI standards for the world. NIST continually develops increasingly
> >better technology and standards. For example, the meter has gone
> >through the following definitions: 1/10000000th of the distance from
> >the North Pole to the Equator, the distance between two marks on a
> >platinum-iridium bar in Paris, the length of a certain number of
> >wavelengths of light emitted by a certain atomic transition of
> >Krypton-86. And presently -- and amazingly -- it is based on the
> >distance light travels in one second, or equivalently, the speed of
> >light. This means that the speed of light is now a fixed number whose
> >accuracy is determined by the atomic clocks. This means that distance
> >is measured by clocks! (Of course, that's not really new: How far is
> >that place? About 20 minutes.)
>
> Give me a break.  We really need a huge fucking bureaucracy for this?

I simply listed this as one of the things gov't is good at.

[...huge snip...]

AEF
0
Alan
3/29/2010 12:29:09 AM
On Mar 27, 10:04=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <3d7d20be-7a81-42de-bdef-6cf98dbed...@q16g2000yqq.googlegroups=
..com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >On Mar 27, 12:26=3DA0pm, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegrou=
ps.=3D
> >com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >On Mar 25, 8:22=3D3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrot=
e:
> >> >> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
gro=3D
> >ups=3D3D
> >> >..com>,
> >> >> =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.c=
om> writes:
>
> >> >> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goo=
gle=3D
> >gro=3D3D
> >> >ups.com>,
> >> >> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not=
 to=3D
> > ne=3D3D
> >> >ed
> >> >> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> >> >> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone el=
se
> >> >> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those po=
or
> >> >> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >> >> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had w=
hat
> >> >> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >> >> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And=
,
> >> >> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attende=
d
> >> >> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not com=
e
> >> >> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn'=
t
> >> >> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked i=
n
> >> >> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on othe=
rs
> >> >> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others d=
o
> >> >> >> the same.
>
> >> >> >> bill
>
> >> >> >> --
> >> >> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >> >> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
er.
> >> >> >> University of Scranton |
> >> >> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >> >> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >> >> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >> >> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Prin=
t
> >> >> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other t=
hin=3D
> >gs
> >> >> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>
> >> >> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
at
> >> >> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >> >> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
ide
> >> >> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3D3DA0=
Healt=3D
> >hcare=3D3D
> >> >,
> >> >> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
ets
> >> >> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >> >> bill
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Bill Gunshannon =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0| =3D3DA0de-=
moc-ra-cy (di m=3D
> >ok' ra see) n. =3D3D
> >> >=3D3DA0Three wolves
> >> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3D3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for =
dinne=3D
> >r.
> >> >> University of Scranton =3D3DA0 |
> >> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3D3DA0 | =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 =3D3DA0 #i=
nclude <std.d=3D
> >isclaimer.h> =3D3D
> >> >=3D3DA0
>
> >> >Hi Bill,
>
> >> >There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000=
..
> >> >And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >> >Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >> >nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >> >without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> >> >disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >> >experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet=
?
> >> >So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >> >Horrors!
>
> >> I have such a pharmacy bill. =3DA0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> >> that tab?
>
> >As Nomad said: Insufficient data. Besides, I'm speaking of those who
> >cannot afford the health bills *you* pay. Are you in financial ruin?
> >Are unable to pay for your medical care?
>
> I can't afford the health bills I pay.
>
> >VAXMAN, you have no insurance? If you do, then others are chipping in
> >for you. That's how insurance works, no?
>
> I have no insurance. =A0Try to get it with my illnesses. =A0You can but
> the premium surcharges make it unaffordable. =A0Couple that unafford-
> ability with HUGE phamaceutical costs and it's even worse. =A0Having a
> lawyer 'round-the-clock doesn't help matters any either.

Then there is something wrong with the current health bill. Hopefully
it can be improved to cover you. That's what should be done. Everyone
should be covered.

AEF
=A0
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

0
Alan
3/29/2010 12:31:14 AM
On Mar 28, 6:28 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googleg=
roups.com>,
> >>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googl=
egroups.com>,
> >>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to=
 need
> >>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wha=
t
> >>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>> bill
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner=
..
> >>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other thi=
ngs
> >>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things tha=
t
> >>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provi=
de
> >>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthc=
are,
> >>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money ge=
ts
> >>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>> bill
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three =
wolves
> >>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >>>> University of Scranton   |
> >>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>> Hi Bill,
> >>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000=
..
> >>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>
> > You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
>
> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run
> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up
> business that way.

You can be developing a serious illness and still feel fine. High
blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, . . . need I go on.
These can only be detected with tests if you are currently feeling
fine. These are all killers, BTW. Why do you even bother going for an
annual check-up then?

>
> > Excluding
> > some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest. The still
> > cost the same huge amount and many people who would die without them
> > cannot afford insurance. And if they do survive, they are not able to
> > get insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
>
> But that isn't what was on CSPAN when the bill was in debate.  They
> promised that pre-existing conditions were not going to be a factor.
> They lied.

OK, the bill isn't what it should be. I'm saying that the bill should
be what it should be. I don't see any real disagreement here. We'll
just have to disagree to not disagree.

> >>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> >>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>> experience total financial ruin?
> >> That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.
>
> >> In the richest country on the planet?
>
> >> We were the richest on the planet.  Where were you on Oct. 2008?
>
> > The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
> > who suffered?
>
> The central banks robbed the world.  As per Katherine Austin Fitz, ex
> HUD exec, called it a financial coupe.  This was caused by stupid
> politicians believing the banking lobby to repeal the Glass-Steigler Act
> of 1933 that Roosevelt signed into law to keep the banks out of the
> financial markets and brokerage firms.  Remember the dot com bust?  That
> came after the repeal.  Not much left and now the bankers are going to
> pick over whats left.

So tell me: Which is the richest country on the planet now?

> >>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>> Horrors!
> >> So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
> >> They are exempt.  Gee, I wonder why that is.
>
> > I think you're missing the point again.
>
> The fact that the politicians wrote an exemption for themselves?

You're missing the point yet again.

> >>> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates.
> >> They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend
> >> what is going to happen and even what already has happened.
>
> > Dumbed-down !=3D illiterate
>
> Most are illiterate to the point that they are not taught to think for
> themselves.  That is known as dumbing down, and add in the
> indoctrination from the education system and you have people that just
> do not care or will even consider looking at the facts.  They'd rather
> just sit in front of the TV and watch football and eat chips and beer.

illiterate |i(l)=CB=88lit=C9=99rit|
adjective
unable to read or write : his parents were illiterate

> >> I don't see how
>
> >>> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
> >>> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talkin=
g
> >>> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
> >>> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> >>> sound.
> >> Have you not read the bill?
> >> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
> >> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
> >> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's i=
n
> >> there.
>
> > I have not read the bill in detail. Nowhere have I said I supported
> > this exact bill. The idea is fine. The details may not be, but it may
> > well be a good step forward. I am supportive of the idea. I am trying
> > to show that not all people can do everything on their own. Many,
> > through no fault of their own, will face needless illness, death, and
> > financial ruin without some sort of universal insurance.
>
> And this same bill will also cause more job losses.  How?  John Deere
> said it will cost them this year an additional $150,000,000.  Their
> solution?  Move it overseas to escape the taxes.  And that is just one
> company.
> Why should anybody have to pay for something that they don't want?

Because it's prohibitively impractical to have a livable, modern
society otherwise, for one. Everyone would have to make a huge list of
what they're willing to pay for. Either the lists would be empty and
we'd descend into chaos, or they'd be long and no two should be the
same. It would therefore be hugely expensive to divvy up the funds
accordingly. None of us lives in a vacuum, for two. You don't want to
buy auto insurance? Hey, no problem for anyone else, right? You don't
want to buy a catalytic converter? Hey, no problem, if you don't mind
choking on more air pollution. Hey, do you have children in school?
Let me know when you're willing to pay my property taxes -- which are
normally used for schooling -- for me, a childless individual. Don't
want to pay for police? Hey, we'll just paint you orange so the police
can know who to not help. We can paint your house orange if you don't
want to pay for the Fire Dept. so they can let your house burn to the
ground and, in the process, endanger neighboring houses in the
process.

Frankly I find it CDEF to not have universal health insurance. (CDEF =3D
cruel, disgraceful, embarrassing, foolish.)

> Where does it say in the U.S. Constitution that they can force you buy
> anything?

Where does it say that they can't?

>
> > What exactly is your point?
>
> That we are now losing more of our freedoms.  Don't be too surprised if
> Obama cancels the November elections.

Now I know you're not serious. Pretending that this is a serious
comment: I don't see European gov'ts about to cancel elections, yet
they have universal health insurance.

Please.

AEF
0
Alan
3/29/2010 12:59:26 AM
On Mar 28, 6:31=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegro=
ups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote=
:
> >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
groups=3D
> >>>> ..com>,
> >>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writ=
es:
> >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goog=
legro=3D
> >>>> ups.com>,
> >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not t=
o ne=3D
> >>>> ed
> >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone els=
e
> >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poo=
r
> >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wh=
at
> >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on other=
s
> >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other th=
ings
> >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
at
> >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
ide
> >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0He=
althcare=3D
> >>>> ,
> >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
ets
> >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (d=
i mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >>>> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for di=
nner.
> >>>>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <st=
d.disclaimer.h> =3D
> >>>> =3DA0
> >>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,00=
0.
> >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatenin=
g
> >>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the plane=
t?
> >>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>>> Horrors!
> >>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> >>> that tab?
> >> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of=
 us.
>
> > So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
> > "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!
>
> What makes you think everything will be fine?
> The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.
> We are technically down $27 trillion. =A0There is no way that even your
> great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off.
> Debt slaves anyone?

I think the Bush tax cuts may have had something to do with the
exploding deficit.

It seemed like you were saying we're screwed until 2014 and that the
tab would be picked up then. Sounds to me like you are saying we'll be
find in 2014.

I think we should have universal health care. Do you? I guess not. We
disagree.

AEF
0
Alan
3/29/2010 1:02:13 AM
On Mar 28, 6:33=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegro=
ups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote=
:
> >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
groups=3D
> >>>> ..com>,
> >>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writ=
es:
> >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goog=
legro=3D
> >>>> ups.com>,
> >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not t=
o ne=3D
> >>>> ed
> >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone els=
e
> >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poo=
r
> >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wh=
at
> >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on other=
s
> >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other th=
ings
> >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
at
> >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
ide
> >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0He=
althcare=3D
> >>>> ,
> >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
ets
> >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (d=
i mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >>>> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for di=
nner.
> >>>>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <st=
d.disclaimer.h> =3D
> >>>> =3DA0
> >>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,00=
0.
> >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatenin=
g
> >>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the plane=
t?
> >>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>>> Horrors!
> >>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> >>> that tab?
> >> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of=
 us.
>
> > So there are some problems with the bill. What's your point? That it's
> > a bad bill? That there shouldn't even be a good version of the bill?
> > That we should scrap the bill and simply give up?
>
> > Please explain.
>
> To get the facts, go read the bill. =A0I'll admit it is 2700+ pages, but
> then the politicians said they don't have time to read it... let alone
> write it. =A0So who wrote it? =A0The insurance industry... Business week.
> The bill has more in it than just health care.

I never said otherwise. What do you recommend be done?

AEF
0
Alan
3/29/2010 1:02:57 AM
On Mar 28, 9:02=A0pm, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:31=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Alan Feldman wrote:
> > > On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> > >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > >>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googleg=
roups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wro=
te:
> > >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.goog=
legroups=3D
> > >>>> ..com>,
> > >>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wr=
ites:
> > >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote=
:
> > >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.go=
oglegro=3D
> > >>>> ups.com>,
> > >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> > >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not=
 to ne=3D
> > >>>> ed
> > >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> > >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone e=
lse
> > >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those p=
oor
> > >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, =
I
> > >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had =
what
> > >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and =
I
> > >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. An=
d,
> > >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attend=
ed
> > >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not co=
me
> > >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn=
't
> > >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked =
in
> > >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on oth=
ers
> > >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others =
do
> > >>>>>>> the same.
> > >>>>>>> bill
> > >>>>>>> --
> > >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> > >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for din=
ner.
> > >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> > >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> > >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> > >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> > >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Pri=
nt
> > >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other =
things
> > >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> > >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things =
that
> > >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> > >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to pr=
ovide
> > >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0=
Healthcare=3D
> > >>>> ,
> > >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money=
 gets
> > >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> > >>>>> bill
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy =
(di mok' ra see) n. =3D
> > >>>> =3DA0Three wolves
> > >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for =
dinner.
> > >>>>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> > >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <=
std.disclaimer.h> =3D
> > >>>> =3DA0
> > >>>> Hi Bill,
> > >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,=
000.
> > >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> > >>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met =
a
> > >>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machin=
e,
> > >>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threaten=
ing
> > >>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> > >>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the pla=
net?
> > >>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> > >>>> Horrors!
> > >>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> > >>> that tab?
> > >> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out =
of us.
>
> > > So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
> > > "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!
>
> > What makes you think everything will be fine?
> > The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.

Well, that was supposedly to prevent a worldwide financial meltdown.
That would be better? If you don't believe that, fine. I will not
argue it.

There are many other reasons for the deficit/debt/whatever.

> > We are technically down $27 trillion. =A0There is no way that even your
> > great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off=
..
> > Debt slaves anyone?
>
> I think the Bush tax cuts may have had something to do with the
> exploding deficit.
>
[...]
> AEF

AEF
0
Alan
3/29/2010 1:23:50 AM
In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>Alan Feldman wrote:
>> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>> bill
>>>>> --
>>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>> University of Scranton   |
>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>> 
>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.

They're order out of for fear of those vile, venemous, and disgusting
creatures known as ambulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers!!!  Those
multitudes of tests are not to protect your ass; they're to protect 
the Dr.'s.


>Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
>some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
>business that way.

I see a number of specialists for chronic life-long conditions that will
never cease to go away or, since medicine is not a science, be cured.  I
hate the idea of what I call prescription blackmail.  Things like insulin
and delivery systems (needles and syringes) and other meds for nephritis,
and all of the fun related issues are needed daily and for life.  Why do 
I need to pay my Dr.s a friendly visit so that they can write a prescrip-
tion for the same meds I have been taking for 40 years of my life?  Talk
about drumming up business, eh?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/29/2010 1:38:09 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>> University of Scranton   |
>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
> 
> They're order out of for fear of those vile, venemous, and disgusting
> creatures known as ambulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers!!!  Those
> multitudes of tests are not to protect your ass; they're to protect 
> the Dr.'s.
> 
> 
>> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
>> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
>> business that way.
> 
> I see a number of specialists for chronic life-long conditions that will
> never cease to go away or, since medicine is not a science, be cured.  I
> hate the idea of what I call prescription blackmail.  Things like insulin
> and delivery systems (needles and syringes) and other meds for nephritis,
> and all of the fun related issues are needed daily and for life.  Why do 
> I need to pay my Dr.s a friendly visit so that they can write a prescrip-
> tion for the same meds I have been taking for 40 years of my life?  Talk
> about drumming up business, eh?
> 

Would you really want a doctor who would write prescriptions to your 
order?  I'm fairly sure he does more than simply write prescriptions.
Doesn't he draw blood for lab tests once or twice a year?  Doesn't he 
want a urine sample once or twice a year to be tested for protein? 
Doesn't he check your feet?  Doesn't he have you see an ophthalmologist 
at least once a year?
0
Richard
3/29/2010 2:36:35 AM
In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1de3b@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mar 25, 8:22�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>
>> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> >> the same.
>>
>> >> bill
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> >> University of Scranton |
>> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>>
>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. �Healthcare,
>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon � � � � �| �de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. �Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | �and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton � |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania � | � � � � #include <std.disclaimer.h> �
> Hi Bill,
> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> Horrors!

If they earned those luxury cars throught their own labors, whay
should they have to give up the fruits of those labors to support
anyone else for any reason whatsoever.  It is, a shame that some
people have serious medical problems, but how exactly is that my
fault or problem?  Believe it or not, before we became just another
socialist leaning welfare country there were numerous non-government
organizations that took care of things like that in a lot of cases.

> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates. I don't see how
> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.

Because there are non-government schools that can do a better job.
Providing lowest level education to everyone in order to guarantee
that someone who has no desire to learn and doesn't want to be there
can waste other people's time and detract from the learning experience
of those who do want to be there is not in the public good.  

> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> sound.

How?  Locally we run busses all day long that never carry more than a
half-dozen people and most of those are senior citizens who do not pay
to ride the bus.  The transit system is nothing but a massive drain on
the local tax base.  Where in the constitution is the guarantee to free
transportation (which is, in itself, a falsehood as it is not free, we
just make someone pay for it who is not getting any benefit out of it.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
0
billg999
3/29/2010 11:54:18 AM
In article <ad-dnWOK9IGnjy3WnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Would you really want a doctor who would write prescriptions to your 
>order?  I'm fairly sure he does more than simply write prescriptions.
>Doesn't he draw blood for lab tests once or twice a year?  Doesn't he 
>want a urine sample once or twice a year to be tested for protein? 
>Doesn't he check your feet?  Doesn't he have you see an ophthalmologist 
>at least once a year?

In most states, save for the people's republic of New Jermany, one can
buy insulin and delivery systems as needed without Rx.  

The nephrologist has given me ordered for blood tests to be done every
month for prothrombine time due to me now taking "rat poison" for life
after an infarction caused by a pettifogger a decade+ ago.  I have no
need to go to his office for that.

The endocrinologist has also given me paperwork for obtaining a blood
work profile (most for HbA1c).  Again, no need to visit her office to
get that.  I've been advised to see an ophthalmologist, and I do on a
yearly basis, but I have no need to visit the endo's office for that. 
Glucometers can now analyze both blood glucose in mg/dl and HbA1c with
rather accurate results.  So, I feel the expense of blood work done at
the lab is excessive.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/29/2010 2:22:38 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:28 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>> University of Scranton   |
>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
>> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run
>> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up
>> business that way.
> 
> You can be developing a serious illness and still feel fine. High
> blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, . . . need I go on.
> These can only be detected with tests if you are currently feeling
> fine. These are all killers, BTW. Why do you even bother going for an
> annual check-up then?
> 
Simple tests like measuring your blood pressure is non-instrusive.
Simple tests for diabetes are low cost.
Cancer... that is questionable and could be invasive.
And I do go for an annual check up.  Nothing so far and the doctor 
doesn't use invasive tests just to see if anything is there, as I do not 
allow that.
Hence, my medical bill is low enough that I can pay out of pocket.

>>> Excluding
>>> some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest. The still
>>> cost the same huge amount and many people who would die without them
>>> cannot afford insurance. And if they do survive, they are not able to
>>> get insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
>> But that isn't what was on CSPAN when the bill was in debate.  They
>> promised that pre-existing conditions were not going to be a factor.
>> They lied.
> 
> OK, the bill isn't what it should be. I'm saying that the bill should
> be what it should be. I don't see any real disagreement here. We'll
> just have to disagree to not disagree.

Whatever, but the politicians sure hyped up the need.
Seeing that health care won't be available till 2014, why can't they do 
it now?

> 
>>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>>> experience total financial ruin?
>>>> That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.
>>>> In the richest country on the planet?
>>>> We were the richest on the planet.  Where were you on Oct. 2008?
>>> The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
>>> who suffered?
>> The central banks robbed the world.  As per Katherine Austin Fitz, ex
>> HUD exec, called it a financial coupe.  This was caused by stupid
>> politicians believing the banking lobby to repeal the Glass-Steigler Act
>> of 1933 that Roosevelt signed into law to keep the banks out of the
>> financial markets and brokerage firms.  Remember the dot com bust?  That
>> came after the repeal.  Not much left and now the bankers are going to
>> pick over whats left.
> 
> So tell me: Which is the richest country on the planet now?
> 

None are now.  Just the consolidation by the central banks.

>>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>>> Horrors!
>>>> So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
>>>> They are exempt.  Gee, I wonder why that is.
>>> I think you're missing the point again.
>> The fact that the politicians wrote an exemption for themselves?
> 
> You're missing the point yet again.
> 

And what point are you exactly trying to make?

>>>>> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates.
>>>> They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend
>>>> what is going to happen and even what already has happened.
>>> Dumbed-down != illiterate
>> Most are illiterate to the point that they are not taught to think for
>> themselves.  That is known as dumbing down, and add in the
>> indoctrination from the education system and you have people that just
>> do not care or will even consider looking at the facts.  They'd rather
>> just sit in front of the TV and watch football and eat chips and beer.
> 
> illiterate |i(l)ˈlitərit|
> adjective
> unable to read or write : his parents were illiterate

Ever hear of being computer illiterate?
Illiteracy comes in many forms.

> 
>>>> I don't see how
>>>>> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
>>>>> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
>>>>> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
>>>>> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
>>>>> sound.
>>>> Have you not read the bill?
>>>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
>>>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
>>>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's in
>>>> there.
>>> I have not read the bill in detail. Nowhere have I said I supported
>>> this exact bill. The idea is fine. The details may not be, but it may
>>> well be a good step forward. I am supportive of the idea. I am trying
>>> to show that not all people can do everything on their own. Many,
>>> through no fault of their own, will face needless illness, death, and
>>> financial ruin without some sort of universal insurance.
>> And this same bill will also cause more job losses.  How?  John Deere
>> said it will cost them this year an additional $150,000,000.  Their
>> solution?  Move it overseas to escape the taxes.  And that is just one
>> company.
>> Why should anybody have to pay for something that they don't want?
> 
> Because it's prohibitively impractical to have a livable, modern
> society otherwise, for one. 

You call this society modern?
I don't.

> Everyone would have to make a huge list of
> what they're willing to pay for. Either the lists would be empty and
> we'd descend into chaos, or they'd be long and no two should be the
> same. It would therefore be hugely expensive to divvy up the funds
> accordingly. None of us lives in a vacuum, for two. You don't want to
> buy auto insurance? Hey, no problem for anyone else, right? You don't
> want to buy a catalytic converter? Hey, no problem, if you don't mind
> choking on more air pollution. Hey, do you have children in school?
> Let me know when you're willing to pay my property taxes -- which are
> normally used for schooling -- for me, a childless individual. Don't
> want to pay for police? Hey, we'll just paint you orange so the police
> can know who to not help. We can paint your house orange if you don't
> want to pay for the Fire Dept. so they can let your house burn to the
> ground and, in the process, endanger neighboring houses in the
> process.

Irrelevant.
Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.

> 
> Frankly I find it CDEF to not have universal health insurance. (CDEF =
> cruel, disgraceful, embarrassing, foolish.)
> 

No, just a facist system that supports corporatists.

>> Where does it say in the U.S. Constitution that they can force you buy
>> anything?
> 
> Where does it say that they can't?
> 

The federal gov. does not have the power to force you to buy anything.

By states rights... the states created the Federal Government... and the 
states can eliminate it as well.

>>> What exactly is your point?
>> That we are now losing more of our freedoms.  Don't be too surprised if
>> Obama cancels the November elections.
> 
> Now I know you're not serious. Pretending that this is a serious
> comment: I don't see European gov'ts about to cancel elections, yet
> they have universal health insurance.
> 

I know now that you are politically illiterate.
This isn't Europe.
Sweden tried it and it damn near bankrupted them.
This concept of universal health care is nothing more than a play on 
words by the corrupt people that will have everything to gain.
This country ran pretty well without european concepts of politics.

> Please.

Then read the bill and do some of your own thinking rather than latch 
onto political rhetoric.
0
GreyCloud
3/29/2010 8:59:16 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>> bill
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>> University of Scranton   |
>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>  
>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
> 
> They're order out of for fear of those vile, venemous, and disgusting
> creatures known as ambulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers!!!  Those
> multitudes of tests are not to protect your ass; they're to protect 
> the Dr.'s.

Absolutely.  All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look up 
symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.

> 
> 
>> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
>> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
>> business that way.
> 
> I see a number of specialists for chronic life-long conditions that will
> never cease to go away or, since medicine is not a science, be cured.  I
> hate the idea of what I call prescription blackmail.  Things like insulin
> and delivery systems (needles and syringes) and other meds for nephritis,
> and all of the fun related issues are needed daily and for life.  Why do 
> I need to pay my Dr.s a friendly visit so that they can write a prescrip-
> tion for the same meds I have been taking for 40 years of my life?  Talk
> about drumming up business, eh?
> 

They do it all the time.  Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did 
was make me feel worse.  I had to go to an alternative doctor that 
managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.
0
GreyCloud
3/29/2010 9:02:18 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:31 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>>>>>> ..com>,
>>>>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>>>>>> ups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>>>>>> ed
>>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>>>>>> =A0Three wolves
>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>>>>>> =A0
>>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>>>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>>>> Horrors!
>>>>> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
>>>>> that tab?
>>>> Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
>>> So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
>>> "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!
>> What makes you think everything will be fine?
>> The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.
>> We are technically down $27 trillion.  There is no way that even your
>> great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off.
>> Debt slaves anyone?
> 
> I think the Bush tax cuts may have had something to do with the
> exploding deficit.

Nothing of what bush did with tax cuts, but more of what the federal 
reserve has done to us.  Most people do not realize that the federal 
reserver is a private corporation that controls our economy and the 
money supply.  It is money that the gov. has to borrow from them and 
then in turn loan it with interest.  So where does the money come from 
to pay the interest?
It is an ever escalating debt spiral that you can't get out of.
If all debts were payed off, the banks would collapse.

> 
> It seemed like you were saying we're screwed until 2014 and that the
> tab would be picked up then. Sounds to me like you are saying we'll be
> find in 2014.
> 

Whatever makes you think that we'll be fine in 2014?  Between now and 
then we'll all have to pay more taxes.  Plus, the care will be doled 
out... by who?  Why, the IRS of course.
It is in the bill.

> I think we should have universal health care. Do you? I guess not. We
> disagree.
> 
This is designed to make people more dependent on gov.  Just like in a zoo.
0
GreyCloud
3/29/2010 9:17:39 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 28, 9:02 pm, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 6:31 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>>> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>>>>>>> ..com>,
>>>>>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>>>>>>> ups.com>,
>>>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>>>>>>> ed
>>>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>>>>>>> =A0Three wolves
>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>>>>>>> =A0
>>>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>>>>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>>>>> Horrors!
>>>>>> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
>>>>>> that tab?
>>>>> Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
>>>> So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
>>>> "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!
>>> What makes you think everything will be fine?
>>> The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.
> 
> Well, that was supposedly to prevent a worldwide financial meltdown.
> That would be better? If you don't believe that, fine. I will not
> argue it.
>

The financial meltdown was created by the central bank.  Any other 
excuse printed by the media is purely bogus.

> There are many other reasons for the deficit/debt/whatever.
> 

I'm sure that you have read all the newspapers claiming the reasons for 
what has happened... except for the truth.
You should go to the net and google on Craig Roberts and his farewell 
text.  Should help you to see the truth as to what is really happening.

>>> We are technically down $27 trillion.  There is no way that even your
>>> great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off.
>>> Debt slaves anyone?
>> I think the Bush tax cuts may have had something to do with the
>> exploding deficit.
>>
> [...]
>> AEF
> 
> AEF
0
GreyCloud
3/29/2010 9:21:01 PM
Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Mar 28, 6:33 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups=
>>>>>> ..com>,
>>>>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegro=
>>>>>> ups.com>,
>>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to ne=
>>>>>> ed
>>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
>>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
>>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
>>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
>>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>>>>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
>>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
>>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
>>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Healthcare=
>>>>>> ,
>>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
>>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>>>>>>> bill
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
>>>>>> =A0Three wolves
>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>>>>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
>>>>>> =A0
>>>>>> Hi Bill,
>>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
>>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>>>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
>>>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
>>>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
>>>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
>>>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
>>>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
>>>>>> Horrors!
>>>>> I have such a pharmacy bill.  When is NObamacare going to pick up
>>>>> that tab?
>>>> Not at least till 2014.  Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of us.
>>> So there are some problems with the bill. What's your point? That it's
>>> a bad bill? That there shouldn't even be a good version of the bill?
>>> That we should scrap the bill and simply give up?
>>> Please explain.
>> To get the facts, go read the bill.  I'll admit it is 2700+ pages, but
>> then the politicians said they don't have time to read it... let alone
>> write it.  So who wrote it?  The insurance industry... Business week.
>> The bill has more in it than just health care.
> 
> I never said otherwise. What do you recommend be done?
> 

Too late now.  But I recommend that this conversation be ended.  After 
all, this is a VMS newsgroup.  Alt.politics is another newsgroup where 
you will find better entertainment.
0
GreyCloud
3/29/2010 9:22:10 PM
In article <ZvidnX3-mMjGiCzWnZ2dnUVZ_t4AAAAA@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>
>Absolutely.  All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look up 
>symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
>Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.

And cover their arses so that there's a paper trail 10,000 miles long
when and if one of the abmulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers shows
up waving a complaint of malpractice.


>They do it all the time.  Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
>I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did 
>was make me feel worse.  I had to go to an alternative doctor that 
>managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.

Well, I'd love to give up the myriad pancreatic hormone suppliments I
take but I don't think that'll make me feel better.  Same for another
dozen or so other meds to stablize my blood chem with failing kidneys.

I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/29/2010 9:43:35 PM
In article <00A9B302.3D909445@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <add7de56-09fa-4759-b179-81e823457ad0@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:
>>On Mar 29, 4:59=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Irrelevant.
>>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>>
>>In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>>to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
>>operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>>it.
> 
> You have no right to drive.  It's a privilege and if you want to do
> so, you need to have the insurance coverage to do so.  That said, I
> think this is just more big-brother-and-the-insurance-company trying
> to legislate their way into the public trough^H^H^H^H^H^Hwallet.

Even if it was a right, the states per Bill of Rights Amendment X
have the power to require auto insurance.  However, Amendments IX and
X deny the federal goverment the power to require it, just as they
deny the federal government the power to require health insurance
or to require participation in universal health care.

In other words, the states do have the Constitutional power to be
facist, but the federal government does not.
 

George Cook
cook@wvnet.edu
0
cook
3/29/2010 9:46:29 PM
On Mar 29, 4:59=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Irrelevant.
> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.

In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
it.


www.noesys.com
0
FrankS
3/29/2010 10:51:52 PM
FrankS wrote:
> On Mar 29, 4:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Irrelevant.
>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
> 
> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
> to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
> it.
> 
> 
> www.noesys.com

AFAIK automobile liability insurance is required in every state.  It 
wouldn't surprise me to learn that the European Union has a similar 
requirement.  It is wise to carry a great deal more liability insurance 
than the minimum required by law; $500,000 to $1,000,000 makes a good 
deal of sense.  The last time I looked the PRONJ required only $50,000
which wouldn't pay your lawyer, let alone a judgment against you.
0
Richard
3/29/2010 11:51:06 PM
On Mon, 29 Mar 2010 19:51:06 -0400, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> FrankS wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 4:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Irrelevant.
>>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>> 
>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required to
>> carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been operating
>> with a facist government for quite some time, so get over it.
>> 
>> 
>> www.noesys.com
> 
> AFAIK automobile liability insurance is required in every state.  It
> wouldn't surprise me to learn that the European Union has a similar
> requirement.  It is wise to carry a great deal more liability insurance
> than the minimum required by law; $500,000 to $1,000,000 makes a good
> deal of sense.  The last time I looked the PRONJ required only $50,000
> which wouldn't pay your lawyer, let alone a judgment against you.

It's certainly required in the UK. It's checked every time the car is re-
licensed.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

0
Bob
3/29/2010 11:58:40 PM
In article <bvednQ9A-bhsoSzWnZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>FrankS wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 4:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Irrelevant.
>>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>> 
>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>> to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
>> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>> it.
>> 
>> 
>> www.noesys.com
>
>AFAIK automobile liability insurance is required in every state.  It 
>wouldn't surprise me to learn that the European Union has a similar 
>requirement.  It is wise to carry a great deal more liability insurance 
>than the minimum required by law; $500,000 to $1,000,000 makes a good 
>deal of sense.  The last time I looked the PRONJ required only $50,000
>which wouldn't pay your lawyer, let alone a judgment against you.

Judgements are for lawyers.  If you have nothing, there's nothing they
can get.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 12:03:53 AM
In article <add7de56-09fa-4759-b179-81e823457ad0@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> writes:
>On Mar 29, 4:59=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Irrelevant.
>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>
>In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
>operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>it.

You have no right to drive.  It's a privilege and if you want to do
so, you need to have the insurance coverage to do so.  That said, I
think this is just more big-brother-and-the-insurance-company trying
to legislate their way into the public trough^H^H^H^H^H^Hwallet.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 12:03:53 AM
FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote:
 
> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
> to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
> it.

Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.

-- glen
0
glen
3/30/2010 12:15:28 AM
In article <horfr0$r0b$2@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> writes:
>FrankS <sapienza@noesys.com> wrote:
> 
>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>> to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
>> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>> it.
>
>Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.

So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?

:)

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 1:23:52 AM
In article <holmut$mb9$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:

> If I'm not too wrong, the main cause of diabetes is over-weight
> and generaly bad living habits (junk food, lack of exercises).
> So it's very much up to each and everyone to choose ones lifestyle.

   That's Type II diabetes.  Type I diabetes is something you are born
   with, and it can kill you.  It killed three of my aunts, one as an
   infant, one as a young child.

   But no, you cant just go order up a cure for either type, and yes,
   Type II is largely preventable.

   Contrary to the conspiracy theoists, it's quite clear in today's
   short term bottom line management approach, anyone who came up
   with a cure for either would sell that cure for many millions of
   dollars this year, even if it put the company out of business in
   two years.  Long term planning jusgt isn't allowed when you've got
   the jump on the competition.

0
koehler
3/30/2010 4:46:54 PM
In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.

   So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:05:47 PM
In article <00A9B2AF.B1964626@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> The endocrinologist has also given me paperwork for obtaining a blood
> work profile (most for HbA1c).  Again, no need to visit her office to
> get that.  I've been advised to see an ophthalmologist, and I do on a
> yearly basis, but I have no need to visit the endo's office for that. 
> Glucometers can now analyze both blood glucose in mg/dl and HbA1c with
> rather accurate results.  So, I feel the expense of blood work done at
> the lab is excessive.

   So what happens if you say no?

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:05:47 PM
In article <c02260eb-c621-4332-802d-f0ffc8d1290d@l36g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> I think the Bush tax cuts may have had something to do with the
> exploding deficit.

   There are two great expenses in the federal budget:  welfare and
   DoD.  Everything else is small.

   During the Clinton administration, much success was had in moving
   people off welfare.  A good economy was an important part of that.
   But it remained the biggest single pice of the budget.

   The cost of Bush's two wars replaced the Clinton era balanced budget 
   with record setting deficits.  I expect that welfare still manages to 
   be a larger single cost, and with the economy destroyed I'll bet it 
   grew a lot.

   If Bush hadn't fought one unecessary war, the other could have been
   over by now.  If cutting regulation hadn't put the economy in the
   hands of the money mongers, it might not have collapsed so far so
   fast.

   And yet somehow folks want to blame the current administration, as
   if all POTUS had to do was to order the economy to be good and
   the deficit to go away.  You can't clean up that much mess in two
   years.

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:05:47 PM
In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
> 
> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
> business that way.

   Isn't testig a few basics what a checkup is for?  Of course, you
   can say no.

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:05:47 PM
In article <JI5tz7fNqHVj@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <iyc1ReBkm2Jm@wvnvms>, cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) writes:
>> 
>> Even if it was a right, the states per Bill of Rights Amendment X
>> have the power to require auto insurance.  However, Amendments IX and
>> X deny the federal goverment the power to require it, just as they
>> deny the federal government the power to require health insurance
>> or to require participation in universal health care.
> 
>    That's not clear:
> 
> 
>    Tenth Amendment
>       The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>       prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
>       or to the people.
> 
>   OK, so the States can do things that the fed can't.  Yep, that's how
>   our goverenment is laid out.  The States have dominion, the fed
>   doesn't, and such.  But the Constitution cleary does delegate the
>   authority to make federal law to the Congress.
> 
>    Ninth Amendment
>       The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
>       construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
> 
>   OK, but it doesn't say what those rights are.  So legislation and
>   the courts have to work them out.  SCOTUS created a new one in Roe v.
>   Wade:  a right to privacy.  People are still arguing about the affect,
>   but no one is willing to take that right away, only to alter the
>   affect.
> 
>   So it's a political position that Congress' authority to make law
>   doesn't cover mandating health insurance.  A position that's been
>   taken many times over many laws and failed in court.

Unfortunately, you are correct that it is a political decision based
entirely on whose is bigger.  However, it has only been that way in
modern history since the socialist FDR tried to pack the SCOTUS during
the previous major economic downturn.

From the Cornell law school web site:

   Nevertheless, for approximately a century, from the death of
   Marshall until 1937, the Tenth Amendment was frequently invoked
   to curtail powers expressly granted to Congress, notably the
   powers to regulate commerce, to enforce the Fourteenth Amendment,
   and to lay and collect taxes.

In more recent years, the SCOTUS has ruled in both directions, usually
by a 5-4 vote.  There is actually a good chance the court will overturn
Obamacare by a 5-4 vote.  It probably all depends on Justice Kennedy.
If only President Ford hadn't been so careless in his appointment to
the court. 


George Cook
cook@wvnet.edu
0
cook
3/30/2010 5:12:02 PM
In article <iyc1ReBkm2Jm@wvnvms>, cook@wvnvms.wvnet.edu (George Cook) writes:
> 
> Even if it was a right, the states per Bill of Rights Amendment X
> have the power to require auto insurance.  However, Amendments IX and
> X deny the federal goverment the power to require it, just as they
> deny the federal government the power to require health insurance
> or to require participation in universal health care.

   That's not clear:


   Tenth Amendment
      The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
      prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively,
      or to the people.

  OK, so the States can do things that the fed can't.  Yep, that's how
  our goverenment is laid out.  The States have dominion, the fed
  doesn't, and such.  But the Constitution cleary does delegate the
  authority to make federal law to the Congress.

   Ninth Amendment
      The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
      construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

  OK, but it doesn't say what those rights are.  So legislation and
  the courts have to work them out.  SCOTUS created a new one in Roe v.
  Wade:  a right to privacy.  People are still arguing about the affect,
  but no one is willing to take that right away, only to alter the
  affect.

  So it's a political position that Congress' authority to make law
  doesn't cover mandating health insurance.  A position that's been
  taken many times over many laws and failed in court.

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:26:13 PM
In article <00A9B30D.4758C5B0@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?

   The government is going to force you to have health insurance so
   that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it will 
   be paying your bills.

0
koehler
3/30/2010 5:26:13 PM
Bob Koehler mentioned  on 30-3-2010 21:06:
> In article<00A9B30D.4758C5B0@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?
>
>     The government is going to force you to have health insurance so
>     that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it will
>     be paying your bills.

Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things 
that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing 
"European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...

/Wilm

0
Wilm
3/30/2010 5:44:08 PM
In article <4bb23867$0$14114$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <wboerhout.no@spam.gmail.com> writes:
>Bob Koehler mentioned  on 30-3-2010 21:06:
>> In article<00A9B30D.4758C5B0@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>
>>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?
>>
>>     The government is going to force you to have health insurance so
>>     that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it will
>>     be paying your bills.
>
>Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things 
>that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing 
>"European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...

Why should others pay my bills?  Especially, medical?  How about the
electric bill?  Gas bill?  Water and sewer bills?  Each person has a
right to work or not on their own.  Why burden others with my bills
and why burden me with theirs?

Besides, there's nothing in this medical bill about medicine.  It is
a bill to control the insurance companies who have been villified in
this but I'm not yet convinced that they didn't want it that way.  I
just see more robber barons -- backed by government edict -- stealing
away more from the hard-working honest citizen.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 7:06:01 PM
In article <uPLKKmM7v5Qy@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9B30D.4758C5B0@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> 
>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?
>
>   The government is going to force you to have health insurance so
>   that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it will 
>   be paying your bills.

That'll be the day (when I die!) -- Buddy Holly...

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 7:06:01 PM
In article <pl9MXT7lXa$+@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> 
>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>
>   So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?

Work to find one but their hypocritic oath won't let them.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 7:06:01 PM
In article <Ygo0ZYCzDiJY@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <00A9B2AF.B1964626@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> The endocrinologist has also given me paperwork for obtaining a blood
>> work profile (most for HbA1c).  Again, no need to visit her office to
>> get that.  I've been advised to see an ophthalmologist, and I do on a
>> yearly basis, but I have no need to visit the endo's office for that. 
>> Glucometers can now analyze both blood glucose in mg/dl and HbA1c with
>> rather accurate results.  So, I feel the expense of blood work done at
>> the lab is excessive.
>
>   So what happens if you say no?

I don't need to say no!  The labs (Lab Corp, Quest Diags, Hospitals) do
not let me past their first line of defense -- the insurance check paper
handlers.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 7:06:01 PM
Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
> 
>    So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
> 

Treat the symptoms or let the patient die!  Untreated diabetes will kill 
you sooner or later.  AFAIK, insulin injections are the only available 
treatment for type one diabetes.  For type two, there are numerous oral 
medications available, at great expense of course.

Type one diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease; the body's 
immune systetm attacks the insulin producing cells.

Type two appears to be a reaction to too much sugar in your diet.  I 
used to live on Coca-Cola.  These days it's diet coke. With a dash of 
lime juice please!  It helps kill the icky taste of the artificial 
sweetener.



0
Richard
3/30/2010 8:16:07 PM
In article <LbOdnRKGHd2NwS_WnZ2dnUVZ_jOdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>> 
>>    So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>> 
>
>Treat the symptoms or let the patient die!  Untreated diabetes will kill 
>you sooner or later.  AFAIK, insulin injections are the only available 
>treatment for type one diabetes.  For type two, there are numerous oral 
>medications available, at great expense of course.
>
>Type one diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease; the body's 
>immune systetm attacks the insulin producing cells.
>
>Type two appears to be a reaction to too much sugar in your diet.  I 
>used to live on Coca-Cola.  These days it's diet coke. With a dash of 
>lime juice please!  It helps kill the icky taste of the artificial 
>sweetener.


From http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/diabetes-myths/

  Myth: Eating too much sugar causes diabetes. 

  Fact: No, it does not.

  Type 1 diabetes is caused by genetics and unknown factors that
  trigger the onset of the disease;
  Type 2 diabetes is caused by genetics and lifestyle factors.  
  Being overweight does increase your risk for developing type 2
  diabetes, and a diet high in calories, whether from sugar or 
  from fat, can contribute to weight gain.  If you have a history
  of diabetes in your family, eating a healthy meal plan and regular
  exercise are recommended to manage your weight. 


  Myth: If you are overweight or obese, you will eventually develop
  type 2 diabetes.

  Fact:  Being overweight is a risk factor for developing this 
  disease, but other risk factors such as family history, ethnicity
  and age also play a role.  Unfortunately, too many people disregard
  the other risk factors for diabetes and think that weight is the
  only risk factor for type 2 diabetes.  Most overweight people never
  develop type 2 diabetes, and many people with type 2 diabetes are
  at a normal weight or only moderately overweight. 


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/30/2010 9:44:09 PM
FrankS wrote:
> On Mar 29, 4:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Irrelevant.
>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
> 
> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
> to carry automobile liability insurance.  Clearly, we've been
> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
> it.

I hope the rest can just get over it when it is all done.  They are not 
finished yet.
0
GreyCloud
3/30/2010 9:54:12 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <ZvidnX3-mMjGiCzWnZ2dnUVZ_t4AAAAA@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>> Absolutely.  All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look up 
>> symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
>> Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.
> 
> And cover their arses so that there's a paper trail 10,000 miles long
> when and if one of the abmulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers shows
> up waving a complaint of malpractice.
> 
> 
>> They do it all the time.  Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
>> I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did 
>> was make me feel worse.  I had to go to an alternative doctor that 
>> managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.
> 
> Well, I'd love to give up the myriad pancreatic hormone suppliments I
> take but I don't think that'll make me feel better.  Same for another
> dozen or so other meds to stablize my blood chem with failing kidneys.
> 
> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
> 

Well, there is a possibility but no guarantee in this, but maybe you 
should take stock in what foods you are eating.  So much of our food on 
the store shelves have additives that really aren't healthy to eat.  80% 
of soy products are genetically modified and that no testing has been 
done to see if it does have health issues.  Same for corn products. 
Another one is high fructose corn syrup... the process uses mercury and 
that is never good, but then some manufacturers use mercury and some 
don't.  Then there is aspartame.  Makes good ant poison.  Monosodium 
Glutamate (MSG) isn't good for you either.  So what do I do?
I buy a lot of organics and hope for the best.  I just use google in 
look up every item that is listed on a can of soup for instance.  It 
might help.
0
GreyCloud
3/30/2010 9:59:59 PM
Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
>> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
>> business that way.
> 
>    Isn't testig a few basics what a checkup is for?  Of course, you
>    can say no.
> 

Usually, if you feel ok, there really isn't a case for testing for what 
a doctor thinks might be a problem.
It is when they want to do a treadmill test, or if you complain about 
high blood pressure problems they want to do an MRI on your kidneys, 
etc.  Those are pretty expensive.
0
GreyCloud
3/30/2010 10:02:07 PM
Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  
>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>>
>>    So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>>
> 
> Treat the symptoms or let the patient die!  Untreated diabetes will kill 
> you sooner or later.  AFAIK, insulin injections are the only available 
> treatment for type one diabetes.  For type two, there are numerous oral 
> medications available, at great expense of course.
> 
> Type one diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease; the body's 
> immune systetm attacks the insulin producing cells.
> 
> Type two appears to be a reaction to too much sugar in your diet.  I 
> used to live on Coca-Cola.  These days it's diet coke. With a dash of 
> lime juice please!  It helps kill the icky taste of the artificial 
> sweetener.
> 

Read the ingredients on that can of coke.  Then google for that 
ingredient that is the sweetener.  Also, check where the coke was 
bottled.  All major cities use flouride in the water and they don't have 
to list that if they didn't add that.

I used to drink diet-coke till I got a nasty 9mm kidney stone.  Had that 
removed and analyzed and the urologist said it was from drinking 
diet-coke, and of course asked me if I was drinking that stuff.
But google on the hazards of aspartame.  Bad stuff.

0
GreyCloud
3/30/2010 10:05:52 PM
In article <_6adneZ-ffNd6C_WnZ2dnUVZ_tidnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Bob Koehler wrote:
>>> In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3B4F@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  
>>> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>>>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>>>
>>>    So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>>>
>> 
>> Treat the symptoms or let the patient die!  Untreated diabetes will kill 
>> you sooner or later.  AFAIK, insulin injections are the only available 
>> treatment for type one diabetes.  For type two, there are numerous oral 
>> medications available, at great expense of course.
>> 
>> Type one diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease; the body's 
>> immune systetm attacks the insulin producing cells.
>> 
>> Type two appears to be a reaction to too much sugar in your diet.  I 
>> used to live on Coca-Cola.  These days it's diet coke. With a dash of 
>> lime juice please!  It helps kill the icky taste of the artificial 
>> sweetener.
>> 
>
>Read the ingredients on that can of coke.  Then google for that 
>ingredient that is the sweetener.  Also, check where the coke was 
>bottled.  All major cities use flouride in the water and they don't have 
>to list that if they didn't add that.
>
>I used to drink diet-coke till I got a nasty 9mm kidney stone.  Had that 
>removed and analyzed and the urologist said it was from drinking 
>diet-coke, and of course asked me if I was drinking that stuff.
>But google on the hazards of aspartame.  Bad stuff.

Club soda or "seltzer" here.  Bubbles good; sugar, chemical sweetners,
and phosphoric acid... not.  I'll bet Coke phosphoric acid had more to
to with your stone than the aspartame even if it is nasty stuff.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 12:45:19 AM
In article <SZqdnajfOPv96S_WnZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <ZvidnX3-mMjGiCzWnZ2dnUVZ_t4AAAAA@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>>> Absolutely.  All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look up 
>>> symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
>>> Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.
>> 
>> And cover their arses so that there's a paper trail 10,000 miles long
>> when and if one of the abmulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers shows
>> up waving a complaint of malpractice.
>> 
>> 
>>> They do it all the time.  Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
>>> I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did 
>>> was make me feel worse.  I had to go to an alternative doctor that 
>>> managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.
>> 
>> Well, I'd love to give up the myriad pancreatic hormone suppliments I
>> take but I don't think that'll make me feel better.  Same for another
>> dozen or so other meds to stablize my blood chem with failing kidneys.
>> 
>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>> 
>
>Well, there is a possibility but no guarantee in this, but maybe you 
>should take stock in what foods you are eating.  So much of our food on 
>the store shelves have additives that really aren't healthy to eat.  80% 
>of soy products are genetically modified and that no testing has been 
>done to see if it does have health issues.  Same for corn products. 
>Another one is high fructose corn syrup... the process uses mercury and 
>that is never good, but then some manufacturers use mercury and some 
>don't.  Then there is aspartame.  Makes good ant poison.  Monosodium 

I don't use HFRC or sugar.  I don't like sweets and I really don't like
artificial sweetners.  


>Glutamate (MSG) isn't good for you either.  So what do I do?

Sodium is a no-no as are phosphates with nephritises.  I haven't used
salt in 40 years and if there's even small amounts on food, I can and
to taste it.


>I buy a lot of organics and hope for the best.  I just use google in 
>look up every item that is listed on a can of soup for instance.  It 
>might help.

Salad was a staple for me until the rat poison regiment.  Vitamin K in
green leafies counters the anticoagulation effectiveness of rat poison.

I stick to whole grains, fresh water fish, and lots of hot sauce so I
have some flavor.  Tonight, eggplant.  Of course, vitamin "G" too.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 12:45:19 AM
In article <6ZXcEzuwh5Jj@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Bob Koehler wrote:
>In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadnZ2d@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <mist@cumulus.com> writes:
>> 
>> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to run 
>> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up 
>> business that way.
>
>   Isn't testig a few basics what a checkup is for?  Of course, you
>   can say no.

A check-up need not include any lab tests.  It can be done with otoscope,
stethoscope, and the provider's eyes, ears, and touch.

Providers fall into two general categories: those who will only do what is
absolutely necessary, and those who will look for opportunities to load up on
tests, etc.

Surprisingly, in my experience, the first group far outnumbers the seccond. 
Insurance companies watch for that sort of thing, more often than you
might think.  Medicare itself has a core concept of "medical necessity"; the
"carriers" who actually pay providers will pay less (or not at all) for
unnecessary tests or procedures.

0
BRAD
3/31/2010 1:51:43 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Salad was a staple for me until the rat poison regiment.  Vitamin K in
> green leafies counters the anticoagulation effectiveness of rat poison.

You must be like my mouse, immune to the warfarin :-) :-) :-)

Maybe I should do the opposite and feed it some red-bull. This has the
total opposite effect as it signicantly thickens the blood rather fast.

0
JF
3/31/2010 4:15:53 AM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Club soda or "seltzer" here. 


Coming from the guy who has a Guiness feed into the house, I find it odd
that he would even agree to hold a glass of transparent liquid :-)

0
JF
3/31/2010 4:17:57 AM
On Mar 28, 10:18=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadn...@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m..=
..@cumulus.com> writes:
> >Alan Feldman wrote:
> >> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >>> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
groups.com>,
> >>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goog=
legroups.com>,
> >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not t=
o need
> >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone els=
e
> >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poo=
r
> >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wh=
at
> >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on other=
s
> >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other th=
ings
> >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
at
> >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
ide
> >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Heal=
thcare,
> >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
ets
> >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra se=
e) n. =A0Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
er.
> >>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaim=
er.h> =A0
> >>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,00=
0.
> >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>
> >> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
>
> They're order out of for fear of those vile, venemous, and disgusting
> creatures known as ambulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers!!! =A0Those
> multitudes of tests are not to protect your ass; they're to protect
> the Dr.'s.

Some are, some aren't. You're overgeneralizing again.

>
> >Hardly. =A0Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to r=
un
> >some kind of test even tho everything is fine. =A0They just drum up
> >business that way.
>
> I see a number of specialists for chronic life-long conditions that will
> never cease to go away or, since medicine is not a science, be cured. =A0=
I
> hate the idea of what I call prescription blackmail. =A0Things like insul=
in
> and delivery systems (needles and syringes) and other meds for nephritis,
> and all of the fun related issues are needed daily and for life. =A0Why d=
o
> I need to pay my Dr.s a friendly visit so that they can write a prescrip-
> tion for the same meds I have been taking for 40 years of my life? =A0Tal=
k
> about drumming up business, eh?

If medicine weren't a science you'd probably be dead by now.

Things change. You're lucky they haven't gotten worse. Why check your
car's tire pressure every month when it's always the same? One day it
won't be.

AEF

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

0
3/31/2010 12:33:00 PM
On Mar 29, 7:54 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googlegroups.com>,
> >>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> >> > Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not to need
> >> >> > insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>
> >> >> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone else
> >> >> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poor
> >> >> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >> >> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had what
> >> >> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >> >> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >> >> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >> >> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >> >> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >> >> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >> >> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on others
> >> >> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >> >> the same.
>
> >> >> bill
>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> >> University of Scranton |
> >> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >> > You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >> > hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >> > Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >> > your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other things
> >> > I've mentioned in my posts?
>
> >> I never said I was against the government providing those things that
> >> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to provide
> >> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healthcare,
> >> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money gets
> >> wasted on are not part of that.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> University of Scranton   |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> > Hi Bill,
> > There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,000.
> > And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> > Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> > nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> > without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatening
> > disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> > experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the planet?
> > So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> > Horrors!
>
> If they earned those luxury cars throught their own labors, whay
> should they have to give up the fruits of those labors to support
> anyone else for any reason whatsoever.  It is, a shame that some

Because they didn't do it entirely with their own labors. They benefit
greatly from things that are paid for via taxes. Did they build the
roads they drive on? Did they not benefit from police and fire depts.?
The existence of standards for measurement? Safety of food and water
supply? Weather forecasts? Military? Basic research? Reduced air
pollution? Reduced water pollution? The criminal justice system? (See
my relevant other post about that.) Vaccinations? Patent law?

Need I go on and on?

No one lives in a vacuum.

That's why.

> people have serious medical problems, but how exactly is that my
> fault or problem?  Believe it or not, before we became just another
> socialist leaning welfare country there were numerous non-government
> organizations that took care of things like that in a lot of cases.

Oh, please. If you had serious health problems you couldn't afford,
should we just let you die?

Keeping everyone healthy reduces the chances of epidemics, and
preventing financial ruin from such reduces the number homeless.

>
> > Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates. I don't see how
> > funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
>
> Because there are non-government schools that can do a better job.
> Providing lowest level education to everyone in order to guarantee
> that someone who has no desire to learn and doesn't want to be there
> can waste other people's time and detract from the learning experience
> of those who do want to be there is not in the public good.

It would be a disaster.

>
> > Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talking
> > about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city's
> > economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> > sound.
>
> How?  Locally we run busses all day long that never carry more than a
> half-dozen people and most of those are senior citizens who do not pay
> to ride the bus.  The transit system is nothing but a massive drain on

And who pays for building and maintenance of the roads?

> the local tax base.  Where in the constitution is the guarantee to free

Can you imagine New York City without a subway?

> transportation (which is, in itself, a falsehood as it is not free, we
> just make someone pay for it who is not getting any benefit out of it.

Who said it was free?

There are indirect benefits like cleaner air, improved local economy.

I don't know what the proper level of subsidization would be. In NYC
the subsidies are relativity small for the subway and buses.

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

AEF
0
3/31/2010 12:46:34 PM
On Mar 29, 4:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 6:28 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >>> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >>>> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.googl=
egroups.com>,
> >>>>>>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goo=
glegroups.com>,
> >>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not =
to need
> >>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone el=
se
> >>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those po=
or
> >>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had w=
hat
> >>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And=
,
> >>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attende=
d
> >>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not com=
e
> >>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn'=
t
> >>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked i=
n
> >>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on othe=
rs
> >>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others d=
o
> >>>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
er.
> >>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Prin=
t
> >>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other t=
hings
> >>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things t=
hat
> >>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to pro=
vide
> >>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately.  Healt=
hcare,
> >>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money =
gets
> >>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>>> bill
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Thre=
e wolves
> >>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >>>>>> University of Scranton   |
> >>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,0=
00.
> >>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
> >>> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
> >> Hardly.  Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to r=
un
> >> some kind of test even tho everything is fine.  They just drum up
> >> business that way.
>
> > You can be developing a serious illness and still feel fine. High
> > blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, cancer, . . . need I go on.
> > These can only be detected with tests if you are currently feeling
> > fine. These are all killers, BTW. Why do you even bother going for an
> > annual check-up then?
>
> Simple tests like measuring your blood pressure is non-instrusive.
> Simple tests for diabetes are low cost.
> Cancer... that is questionable and could be invasive.
> And I do go for an annual check up.  Nothing so far and the doctor
> doesn't use invasive tests just to see if anything is there, as I do not
> allow that.
> Hence, my medical bill is low enough that I can pay out of pocket.

Just how does this invalidate my point?

>
> >>> Excluding
> >>> some cases does not invalidate my point in the slightest. The still
> >>> cost the same huge amount and many people who would die without them
> >>> cannot afford insurance. And if they do survive, they are not able to
> >>> get insurance due to pre-existing conditions.
> >> But that isn't what was on CSPAN when the bill was in debate.  They
> >> promised that pre-existing conditions were not going to be a factor.
> >> They lied.
>
> > OK, the bill isn't what it should be. I'm saying that the bill should
> > be what it should be. I don't see any real disagreement here. We'll
> > just have to disagree to not disagree.
>
> Whatever, but the politicians sure hyped up the need.
> Seeing that health care won't be available till 2014, why can't they do
> it now?

Science times, yesterday:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/03/21/us/health-care-reform.html?re=
f=3Dscience

Included is "Starting in 2013, you may pay higher taxes." Hardly right
away.




>
>
>
> >>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine=
,
> >>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threateni=
ng
> >>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>>>> experience total financial ruin?
> >>>> That is what the eugenisists want you to do... die.
> >>>> In the richest country on the planet?
> >>>> We were the richest on the planet.  Where were you on Oct. 2008?
> >>> The financial district in NYC. What, we [the US] were the only ones
> >>> who suffered?
> >> The central banks robbed the world.  As per Katherine Austin Fitz, ex
> >> HUD exec, called it a financial coupe.  This was caused by stupid
> >> politicians believing the banking lobby to repeal the Glass-Steigler A=
ct
> >> of 1933 that Roosevelt signed into law to keep the banks out of the
> >> financial markets and brokerage firms.  Remember the dot com bust?  Th=
at
> >> came after the repeal.  Not much left and now the bankers are going to
> >> pick over whats left.
>
> > So tell me: Which is the richest country on the planet now?
>
> None are now.  Just the consolidation by the central banks.

I find it hardly likely that all are the same. Look up "superlative".

>
> >>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>>>> Horrors!
> >>>> So whine to the rich politicians that passed this monstrosity.
> >>>> They are exempt.  Gee, I wonder why that is.
> >>> I think you're missing the point again.
> >> The fact that the politicians wrote an exemption for themselves?
>
> > You're missing the point yet again.
>
> And what point are you exactly trying to make?

That an increase in taxes on those who can afford 10 luxury cars that
brings them down to 9 is hardly something to cry about. And this can
make for a much bigger benefit for others who are less fortunate.

>
> >>>>> Education? We'd end up with a nation of illiterates.
> >>>> They are already dumbed down so that they cannot think or comprehend
> >>>> what is going to happen and even what already has happened.
> >>> Dumbed-down !=3D illiterate
> >> Most are illiterate to the point that they are not taught to think for
> >> themselves.  That is known as dumbing down, and add in the
> >> indoctrination from the education system and you have people that just
> >> do not care or will even consider looking at the facts.  They'd rather
> >> just sit in front of the TV and watch football and eat chips and beer.
>
> > illiterate |i(l)=CB=88lit=C9=99rit|
> > adjective
> > unable to read or write : his parents were illiterate
>
> Ever hear of being computer illiterate?
> Illiteracy comes in many forms.

So that's all we learn in school? How to use a computer? The computer-
illeterate are old folks who are too old to learn it, don't want to,
and don't need to.

>
>
>
> >>>> I don't see how
> >>>>> funding education to prevent that would not help the general good.
> >>>>> Transportation? You'd prefer not to have roads? Perhaps you're talk=
ing
> >>>>> about subsidized mass transit. One could make an argument that city=
's
> >>>>> economies do better that way, but I can't say for sure if that's
> >>>>> sound.
> >>>> Have you not read the bill?
> >>>> The health care laws for health care won't take effect until 2014.
> >>>> Meanwhile, the gov is goingn to tax you now for health care!
> >>>> Children with pre-existing conditions will not get insuarance.  It's=
 in
> >>>> there.
> >>> I have not read the bill in detail. Nowhere have I said I supported
> >>> this exact bill. The idea is fine. The details may not be, but it may
> >>> well be a good step forward. I am supportive of the idea. I am trying
> >>> to show that not all people can do everything on their own. Many,
> >>> through no fault of their own, will face needless illness, death, and
> >>> financial ruin without some sort of universal insurance.
> >> And this same bill will also cause more job losses.  How?  John Deere
> >> said it will cost them this year an additional $150,000,000.  Their
> >> solution?  Move it overseas to escape the taxes.  And that is just one
> >> company.
> >> Why should anybody have to pay for something that they don't want?
>
> > Because it's prohibitively impractical to have a livable, modern
> > society otherwise, for one.
>
> You call this society modern?
> I don't.

You're wrong.

>
> > Everyone would have to make a huge list of
> > what they're willing to pay for. Either the lists would be empty and
> > we'd descend into chaos, or they'd be long and no two should be the
> > same. It would therefore be hugely expensive to divvy up the funds
> > accordingly. None of us lives in a vacuum, for two. You don't want to
> > buy auto insurance? Hey, no problem for anyone else, right? You don't
> > want to buy a catalytic converter? Hey, no problem, if you don't mind
> > choking on more air pollution. Hey, do you have children in school?
> > Let me know when you're willing to pay my property taxes -- which are
> > normally used for schooling -- for me, a childless individual. Don't
> > want to pay for police? Hey, we'll just paint you orange so the police
> > can know who to not help. We can paint your house orange if you don't
> > want to pay for the Fire Dept. so they can let your house burn to the
> > ground and, in the process, endanger neighboring houses in the
> > process.
>
> Irrelevant.
> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.

I suppose the same goes for autos.

fascism |=CB=88fa sh =CB=8Ciz=C9=99m| (also Fascism)
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and
social organization.
=E2=80=A2 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant
views or practice.
The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing
nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922=E2=80=9343), and the regimes=
 of
the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also fascist. Fascism
tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one national or ethnic
group, a contempt for democracy, an insistence on obedience to a
powerful leader, and a strong demagogic approach.

>
>
>
> > Frankly I find it CDEF to not have universal health insurance. (CDEF =
=3D
> > cruel, disgraceful, embarrassing, foolish.)
>
> No, just a facist system that supports corporatists.

See above.

>
> >> Where does it say in the U.S. Constitution that they can force you buy
> >> anything?
>
> > Where does it say that they can't?
>
> The federal gov. does not have the power to force you to buy anything.

Nonsense.

>
> By states rights... the states created the Federal Government... and the
> states can eliminate it as well.

And people can jump off a cliff. So what?

>
> >>> What exactly is your point?
> >> That we are now losing more of our freedoms.  Don't be too surprised i=
f
> >> Obama cancels the November elections.
>
> > Now I know you're not serious. Pretending that this is a serious
> > comment: I don't see European gov'ts about to cancel elections, yet
> > they have universal health insurance.
>
> I know now that you are politically illiterate.
> This isn't Europe.
> Sweden tried it and it damn near bankrupted them.

The Space Shuttle blew up but it wasn't the end of NASA.

> This concept of universal health care is nothing more than a play on
> words by the corrupt people that will have everything to gain.
> This country ran pretty well without european concepts of politics.

If your not one of the unlucky ones.

>
> > Please.
>
> Then read the bill and do some of your own thinking rather than latch
> onto political rhetoric.

I looked at the summaries in the Times and don't see any of this
nonsense you're posting.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:01:57 PM
On Mar 28, 6:31=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googlegro=
ups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote=
:
> >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
groups=3D
> >>>> ..com>,
> >>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writ=
es:
> >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goog=
legro=3D
> >>>> ups.com>,
> >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not t=
o ne=3D
> >>>> ed
> >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone els=
e
> >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poo=
r
> >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
> >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wh=
at
> >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
> >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
> >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
> >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
> >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
> >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
> >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on other=
s
> >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
> >>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
r.
> >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
> >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other th=
ings
> >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
at
> >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
ide
> >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0He=
althcare=3D
> >>>> ,
> >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
ets
> >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>> bill
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy (d=
i mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >>>> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for di=
nner.
> >>>>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <st=
d.disclaimer.h> =3D
> >>>> =3DA0
> >>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,00=
0.
> >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met a
> >>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machine,
> >>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threatenin=
g
> >>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the plane=
t?
> >>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>>> Horrors!
> >>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> >>> that tab?
> >> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out of=
 us.
>
> > So in four years everything will be fine. Except that despite the
> > "early taxation" we will still have a humongous deficit!
>
> What makes you think everything will be fine?
> The deficit was caused by the robber barons known as the central bank.
> We are technically down $27 trillion. =A0There is no way that even your
> great-great-great-great grandchildren will be able to pay this debt off.
> Debt slaves anyone?

You're the one who said it will be okay in 2014. You said there will
be disasterous taxes until then.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:04:05 PM
On Mar 29, 5:22=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Mar 28, 6:33 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >>> On Mar 27, 6:06 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>>> In article <1934ce82-eafd-4729-8640-6ceb11f1d...@33g2000yqj.googleg=
roups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>> On Mar 25, 8:22=3DA0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wro=
te:
> >>>>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.goog=
legroups=3D
> >>>>>> ..com>,
> >>>>>>> =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> wr=
ites:
> >>>>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote=
:
> >>>>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.go=
oglegro=3D
> >>>>>> ups.com>,
> >>>>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not=
 to ne=3D
> >>>>>> ed
> >>>>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
> >>>>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone e=
lse
> >>>>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those p=
oor
> >>>>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, =
I
> >>>>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had =
what
> >>>>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and =
I
> >>>>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. An=
d,
> >>>>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attend=
ed
> >>>>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not co=
me
> >>>>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn=
't
> >>>>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked =
in
> >>>>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on oth=
ers
> >>>>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others =
do
> >>>>>>>>> the same.
> >>>>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
> >>>>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for din=
ner.
> >>>>>>>>> University of Scranton |
> >>>>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >>>>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
> >>>>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
> >>>>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Pri=
nt
> >>>>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other =
things
> >>>>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
> >>>>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things =
that
> >>>>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
> >>>>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to pr=
ovide
> >>>>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =3DA0=
Healthcare=3D
> >>>>>> ,
> >>>>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money=
 gets
> >>>>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
> >>>>>>> bill
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0| =3DA0de-moc-ra-cy =
(di mok' ra see) n. =3D
> >>>>>> =3DA0Three wolves
> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =3DA0and a sheep voting on what's for =
dinner.
> >>>>>>> University of Scranton =3DA0 |
> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =3DA0 | =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 =3DA0 #include <=
std.disclaimer.h> =3D
> >>>>>> =3DA0
> >>>>>> Hi Bill,
> >>>>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,=
000.
> >>>>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
> >>>>>> Medicines can cost that much a year. Many cannot afford it. I met =
a
> >>>>>> nice couple in an emergency room who couldn't afford a CPAP machin=
e,
> >>>>>> without which the woman is much more likely to get a life-threaten=
ing
> >>>>>> disease. So all these people should just be left to die and/or
> >>>>>> experience total financial ruin? In the richest country on the pla=
net?
> >>>>>> So someone would have to make do with 9 luxury cars instead of 10.
> >>>>>> Horrors!
> >>>>> I have such a pharmacy bill. =A0When is NObamacare going to pick up
> >>>>> that tab?
> >>>> Not at least till 2014. =A0Meanwhile, we all get the crap taxed out =
of us.
> >>> So there are some problems with the bill. What's your point? That it'=
s
> >>> a bad bill? That there shouldn't even be a good version of the bill?
> >>> That we should scrap the bill and simply give up?
> >>> Please explain.
> >> To get the facts, go read the bill. =A0I'll admit it is 2700+ pages, b=
ut
> >> then the politicians said they don't have time to read it... let alone
> >> write it. =A0So who wrote it? =A0The insurance industry... Business we=
ek.
> >> The bill has more in it than just health care.
>
> > I never said otherwise. What do you recommend be done?
>
> Too late now. =A0But I recommend that this conversation be ended. =A0Afte=
r
> all, this is a VMS newsgroup. =A0Alt.politics is another newsgroup where
> you will find better entertainment.

So drop out. It is easy to skip over threads like this. Even though
there are over 200 posts in this thread, it only shows up as one line
among many other VMS-related threads.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:06:03 PM
On Mar 29, 6:32=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <ZvidnX3-mMjGiCzWnZ2dnUVZ_t4AA...@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m..=
..@cumulus.com> writes:
>
> >Absolutely. =A0All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look u=
p
> >symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
> >Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.
>
> And cover their arses so that there's a paper trail 10,000 miles long
> when and if one of the abmulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers shows
> up waving a complaint of malpractice.
>
> >They do it all the time. =A0Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
> >I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did
> >was make me feel worse. =A0I had to go to an alternative doctor that
> >managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.
>
> Well, I'd love to give up the myriad pancreatic hormone suppliments I
> take but I don't think that'll make me feel better. =A0Same for another
> dozen or so other meds to stablize my blood chem with failing kidneys.
>
> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.

And just what are you basing this comment on? How do you know diseases
are so easy to cure? Big pharam is not the only research game in town.
Curing diabetes would give instant fame to whoever does it, including
financial rewards. And a Nobel Prize at the very least.

>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:07:47 PM
On Mar 29, 8:55=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <add7de56-09fa-4759-b179-81e823457...@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups=
..com>, FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> writes:
>
> >On Mar 29, 4:59=3DA0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> >> Irrelevant.
> >> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>
> >In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
> >to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
> >operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
> >it.
>
> You have no right to drive. =A0It's a privilege and if you want to do
> so, you need to have the insurance coverage to do so. =A0That said, I
> think this is just more big-brother-and-the-insurance-company trying
> to legislate their way into the public trough^H^H^H^H^H^Hwallet.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

Didn't you say you can't afford your medicines?

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:08:42 PM
In article <4bb2cc79$0$12620$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Salad was a staple for me until the rat poison regiment.  Vitamin K in
>> green leafies counters the anticoagulation effectiveness of rat poison.
>
>You must be like my mouse, immune to the warfarin :-) :-) :-)

Could be.  I believe today that there are more powerful rodent pesticides
on the market than Warfarin.  Its principle usage today is thromboplastin 
time (PT) maintenance.


>Maybe I should do the opposite and feed it some red-bull. This has the
>total opposite effect as it signicantly thickens the blood rather fast.

Really?  I've heard Red Bull "gives you wings" --- probably angels wings.
That concoction chock full of caffeine, taurine, various amino acids of
dubious benefit and health risks, and sugars just can't be good for those
who consume it mass quantities and it smells disgusting -- like a liquid
"skittles". (M&M Mars candy product).
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 1:10:09 PM
On Mar 29, 10:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <horfr0$r0...@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt <g...@ugc=
s.caltech.edu> writes:
> >FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> wrote:
>
> >> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
> >> to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
> >> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
> >> it.
>
> >Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.
>
> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies=
?
>
> :)
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

You can't have a sustainable health insurance scheme if only the sick
are signing up. That's how insurance works. In fact, you're playing
into the hands of the insurance industry, as they would be thrilled to
continue to be able to drop patients as soon as they get sick, and to
deny coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:10:44 PM
On Mar 30, 1:44=A0pm, Wilm Boerhout <wboerhout...@spam.gmail.com> wrote:
> Bob Koehler mentioned =A0on 30-3-2010 21:06:
>
> > In article<00A9B30D.4758C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSpa=
mHere.ORG writes:
>
> >> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bod=
ies?
>
> > =A0 =A0 The government is going to force you to have health insurance s=
o
> > =A0 =A0 that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it wil=
l
> > =A0 =A0 be paying your bills.
>
> Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things
> that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing
> "European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...
>
> /Wilm

And you prefer that your insurance company drop you as soon as you get
a serious illness? Andyou prefer those with pre-existing conditions be
turned down? Those who don't suffer from this benefit from laws that
prevent employer-sponsered insurance to do such things. So it's okay
for you to benefit (I assume you wouldn't be arguing this if you
weren't), but not others?

Left or not is not the question. Overall benefit to the common good
is.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:16:10 PM
I apologise for contributing further to this off-topic thread.

Many of us Europeans simply shake our heads in bafflement and
sheer disbelief that things are the way they are in the US health
care system.  In my opinion, it is a litmus test of a society how
well it cares for its least privileged.  The US situation would
simply not be tolerated in any (western-) European country.

And I am happy to pay taxes while I am still healthy that will be
used to benefit those less healthy than myself (nearly 57 and
very, very rarely cost the UK NHS anything).
0
Roy.Omond (380)
3/31/2010 1:16:28 PM
On Mar 30, 3:52=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <pl9MXT7lX...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam=
..encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>
> >In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSpa=
mHere.ORG writes:
>
> >> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> >> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>
> > =A0 So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>
> Work to find one but their hypocritic oath won't let them.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

It *is* being worked on.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:16:57 PM
On Mar 30, 4:04=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <4bb23867$0$14114$703f8...@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <wb=
oerhout...@spam.gmail.com> writes:
>
> >Bob Koehler mentioned =A0on 30-3-2010 21:06:
> >> In article<00A9B30D.4758C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSp=
amHere.ORG writes:
>
> >>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bo=
dies?
>
> >> =A0 =A0 The government is going to force you to have health insurance =
so
> >> =A0 =A0 that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it wi=
ll
> >> =A0 =A0 be paying your bills.
>
> >Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things
> >that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing
> >"European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...
>
> Why should others pay my bills? =A0Especially, medical? =A0How about the
> electric bill? =A0Gas bill? =A0Water and sewer bills? =A0Each person has =
a
> right to work or not on their own. =A0Why burden others with my bills
> and why burden me with theirs?
>
> Besides, there's nothing in this medical bill about medicine. =A0It is
> a bill to control the insurance companies who have been villified in
> this but I'm not yet convinced that they didn't want it that way. =A0I
> just see more robber barons -- backed by government edict -- stealing
> away more from the hard-working honest citizen.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

Didn't you tell us you can't afford your medicines? So it's either
financial ruin or the awful side effects, including the possibility of
death, for you?

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:18:00 PM
On Mar 30, 4:04=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <4bb23867$0$14114$703f8...@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <wb=
oerhout...@spam.gmail.com> writes:
>
> >Bob Koehler mentioned =A0on 30-3-2010 21:06:
> >> In article<00A9B30D.4758C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSp=
amHere.ORG writes:
>
> >>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bo=
dies?
>
> >> =A0 =A0 The government is going to force you to have health insurance =
so
> >> =A0 =A0 that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it wi=
ll
> >> =A0 =A0 be paying your bills.
>
> >Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things
> >that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing
> >"European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...
>
> Why should others pay my bills? =A0Especially, medical? =A0How about the
> electric bill? =A0Gas bill? =A0Water and sewer bills? =A0Each person has =
a
> right to work or not on their own. =A0Why burden others with my bills
> and why burden me with theirs?

Some die because they can't afford health insurance. If that's okay
with you, then fine. Epidemics are more likely to come about your way.
If that's okay with you, then fine. Income inequality will become far
worse. If that's okay with you, okay.


>
> Besides, there's nothing in this medical bill about medicine. =A0It is
> a bill to control the insurance companies who have been villified in

They miss no excuse, no matter how flimsy, to drop people as soon as
they get very sick.

> this but I'm not yet convinced that they didn't want it that way. =A0I
> just see more robber barons -- backed by government edict -- stealing
> away more from the hard-working honest citizen.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>
> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
 by
> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:23:17 PM
On Mar 30, 5:59 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <
....@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> writes:
> >> Absolutely.  All drs. today are taught is how to push pills and look up
> >> symtoms in a book to correlate which pill goes with what symptom.
> >> Around the early 1900s, medicine was practiced much differently.
>
> > And cover their arses so that there's a paper trail 10,000 miles long
> > when and if one of the abmulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers shows
> > up waving a complaint of malpractice.
>
> >> They do it all the time.  Some meds are designed to keep you on them.
> >> I used to be taking atenolol for high blood pressure,... but all it did
> >> was make me feel worse.  I had to go to an alternative doctor that
> >> managed to titrate me off those horrible meds.
>
> > Well, I'd love to give up the myriad pancreatic hormone suppliments I
> > take but I don't think that'll make me feel better.  Same for another
> > dozen or so other meds to stablize my blood chem with failing kidneys.
>
> > I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> > and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>
> Well, there is a possibility but no guarantee in this, but maybe you
> should take stock in what foods you are eating.  So much of our food on
> the store shelves have additives that really aren't healthy to eat.  80%

Like what? One variety of "natrual potato" had to be withdrawn because
it was toxic to people.

> of soy products are genetically modified and that no testing has been
> done to see if it does have health issues.  Same for corn products.

Nonsense.

From The Blank Slate:

"A 2001 report buy the EU reviewed 81 research projects conducted over
15 years and failed to find any new risks to human health or to the
environment posted by genetically modified crops. This is no surprise
to a biologist. Genetically modified foods are no more dangerous than
"natural" foods because the are not fundamentally different from
natural foods. Virtually every animal and vegetables sold in a health-
food store has been "genetically modified" for millennia by selective
breeding and hybridization. The wild ancestor of carrots was a thin,
bitter white root; the ancestor of corn had an inch-long, easily
shattered cob with a few small, rock-hard kernels. Plants are
Darwinian creatres with no particular desire to be eaten, so they did
not go out of their way to be tasty, healthy, or easy for us to groan
and harvest. On the contrary: they *did* go out of their way to
*deter* us from eating them, by evolving irritants, toxins, and bitter-
tasting compounds. So there is nothing especially safe about natural
foods. The "natural" method of selective breeding for pest resistance
simply increases the concentration of the plant's own poisons; one
variety of natural potato had to be withdrawn from the market because
it proved to be toxic to people. Similarly, natural flavors--defined
by one food scientist as "a flavor that's been derived with an out-of-
date technology"--are often chemically indistinguishable from their
artificial counterparts, and when they are distinguishable, sometimes
the natural flavor is the more dangerous one. When "natural" almond
flavor, banzaldehyde, is derived from peach pits, it is accompanied by
traces of cyanide; when it is synthesized as an "article flavor," it
is not.

"A blank rear of all artificial and genetically modified foods is
patently irrational on health grounds, and it could make food more
expensive and hence less available to the poor."

So much for nature-worship.

> Another one is high fructose corn syrup... the process uses mercury and
> that is never good, but then some manufacturers use mercury and some
> don't.  Then there is aspartame.  Makes good ant poison.  Monosodium
> Glutamate (MSG) isn't good for you either.  So what do I do?
> I buy a lot of organics and hope for the best.  I just use google in
> look up every item that is listed on a can of soup for instance.  It
> might help.

As VAXman already said: Organic food is a scam.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:41:20 PM
On Mar 30, 6:02=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
> > In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadn...@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m=
....@cumulus.com> writes:
> >> Hardly. =A0Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to=
 run
> >> some kind of test even tho everything is fine. =A0They just drum up
> >> business that way.
>
> > =A0 =A0Isn't testig a few basics what a checkup is for? =A0Of course, y=
ou
> > =A0 =A0can say no.
>
> Usually, if you feel ok, there really isn't a case for testing for what
> a doctor thinks might be a problem.
> It is when they want to do a treadmill test, or if you complain about
> high blood pressure problems they want to do an MRI on your kidneys,
> etc. =A0Those are pretty expensive.

Uh, high blood pressure usually has no symptoms until a heart attack,
kidney failure, or stroke occur after being untreated for too long.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 1:42:36 PM
In article <23446935-f1fa-4ae7-8632-94ee830567ae@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 28, 10:18=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadn...@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m..=
>..@cumulus.com> writes:
>> >Alan Feldman wrote:
>> >> On Mar 27, 6:05 pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> >>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>> >>>> On Mar 25, 8:22 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >>>>> In article <3b60b024-db6e-449e-b9d8-451320351...@x12g2000yqx.google=
>groups.com>,
>> >>>>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>> On Mar 24, 8:59 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >>>>>>> In article <dffd6c35-6693-404c-a899-508455c66...@q21g2000yqm.goog=
>legroups.com>,
>> >>>>>>> Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>>>> Who pays for your medicines? Others who are healthy enough not t=
>o need
>> >>>>>>>> insurance, no? Do you not take from them?
>> >>>>>>> I pay all my own bills. And I would be very happy if everyone els=
>e
>> >>>>>>> would do the same. And before people start crying about those poo=
>r
>> >>>>>>> people who have no jobs and can't afford to pay their own way, I
>> >>>>>>> left home at 17, days after graduating from high school. I had wh=
>at
>> >>>>>>> I carried in my suitcase. I worked to get where I am today and I
>> >>>>>>> would really appreciate it if others would just do the same. And,
>> >>>>>>> no, you didn't pay for my education either. I have never attended
>> >>>>>>> a public school or ridden on a schoolbus. And, no, I did not come
>> >>>>>>> from a rich family. My father didn't go to high school and didn't
>> >>>>>>> get his GED until long after I was out of the house. He worked in
>> >>>>>>> factories, as did my mother, to raise us without relying on other=
>s
>> >>>>>>> to pay our way. I have lived likewise and only ask that others do
>> >>>>>>> the same.
>> >>>>>>> bill
>> >>>>>>> --
>> >>>>>>> Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
>> >>>>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinne=
>r.
>> >>>>>>> University of Scranton |
>> >>>>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>> >>>>>> You obviously have no idea how much it costs for medicines and
>> >>>>>> hospital treatments, without which many would die.
>> >>>>>> Did you provide your own police force? Build your own roads? Print
>> >>>>>> your own money? And you have never benefited from all the other th=
>ings
>> >>>>>> I've mentioned in my posts?
>> >>>>> I never said I was against the government providing those things th=
>at
>> >>>>> the public needs, that benefit the general public (as opposed to
>> >>>>> special interests or samll groups of individuals who refuse to prov=
>ide
>> >>>>> for themselves) and that can not be provided for privately. =A0Heal=
>thcare,
>> >>>>> education, transportation and many other things that my tax money g=
>ets
>> >>>>> wasted on are not part of that.
>> >>>>> bill
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra se=
>e) n. =A0Three wolves
>> >>>>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinn=
>er.
>> >>>>> University of Scranton =A0 |
>> >>>>> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaim=
>er.h> =A0
>> >>>> Hi Bill,
>> >>>> There are many who cannot afford health care. An angiogram is $40,00=
>0.
>> >>>> And there's probably another $40,000 worth of associated costs.
>> >>> Most are unnecessary tests or procedures.
>>
>> >> You're missing the point. They are quite often necessary.
>>
>> They're order out of for fear of those vile, venemous, and disgusting
>> creatures known as ambulance-chasing maladroit pettifoggers!!! =A0Those
>> multitudes of tests are not to protect your ass; they're to protect
>> the Dr.'s.
>
>Some are, some aren't. You're overgeneralizing again.

You are, of course, speaking about the tests.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:25:19 PM
On 2010-03-31 15:16, R.A.Omond wrote:
> I apologise for contributing further to this off-topic thread.
>
> Many of us Europeans simply shake our heads in bafflement and
> sheer disbelief that things are the way they are in the US health
> care system. In my opinion, it is a litmus test of a society how
> well it cares for its least privileged. The US situation would
> simply not be tolerated in any (western-) European country.
>
> And I am happy to pay taxes while I am still healthy that will be
> used to benefit those less healthy than myself (nearly 57 and
> very, very rarely cost the UK NHS anything).

I just can second that. I've payed my taxes for 30+ years and
now my reumatic doctor talkes about setting me on a medicin
that cost aprox $150.000 per year, yet *my* personal cost is
still limited to aprox $200 per year no matter what happens.
I never hear someone complaining about this "system" over here...

0
3/31/2010 2:27:54 PM
In article <d58b8f09-5a7a-4637-8c1e-c290a36f0d7b@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:

>Oh, please. If you had serious health problems you couldn't afford,
>should we just let you die?

Some people have chosen that path over the medical practitioner's
potions and bloodletting prolonging their agony.  There is still,
IMHO, one thing that *is* mine.   Your buddies that have plagued 
the capitol rotunda are trying now to usurp that too.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:31:16 PM
In article <01e8e87c-46da-474f-bb5d-e7e4414b36bd@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:

>And just what are you basing this comment on? How do you know diseases
>are so easy to cure? Big pharam is not the only research game in town.
>Curing diabetes would give instant fame to whoever does it, including
>financial rewards. And a Nobel Prize at the very least.

Because big pharam is interested only in the 3 Hs -- happiness, hairiness
and horniness.  Look at the plathora of drugs hitting the market and what
they are for.  As long as pharmas can rake in more money on giving people
a fuller head of hair, a carefree drug-induced euphoria and a springboard
woody, there's no incentive financially to put themselves out of biz.

My Mrs. works at one of the big pharmas.  What's coming down the pipeline
is *NOT* going to revolutionize the medical world like Alexander Fleming!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:40:21 PM
In article <bd895a10-22cb-44f8-82e2-108169fa6fa0@l25g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 29, 8:55=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <add7de56-09fa-4759-b179-81e823457...@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups=
>..com>, FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> writes:
>>
>> >On Mar 29, 4:59=3DA0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> >> Irrelevant.
>> >> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>>
>> >In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>> >to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
>> >operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>> >it.
>>
>> You have no right to drive. =A0It's a privilege and if you want to do
>> so, you need to have the insurance coverage to do so. =A0That said, I
>> think this is just more big-brother-and-the-insurance-company trying
>> to legislate their way into the public trough^H^H^H^H^H^Hwallet.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
> by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
>Didn't you say you can't afford your medicines?

Yup.  I've given to taking one only once every other day; another I take
once instead of twice a day.  I have a terribel vitamin-D deficiency too 
but the Rx for the mega-doze of vit-D is just out of the question for my
perceived benefit so I've stopped buying it.  I'm tempted to get Warfarin
at a hardware store as it's cheaper by magnitudes than the same compound
from the pharmacy. ;)


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:44:59 PM
In article <06ba1205-88f8-4bdc-bf70-b413b361119d@o24g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 29, 10:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <horfr0$r0...@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt <g...@ugc=
>s.caltech.edu> writes:
>> >FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>> >> to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
>> >> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>> >> it.
>>
>> >Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.
>>
>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies=
>?
>>
>> :)
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
> by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
>You can't have a sustainable health insurance scheme if only the sick
>are signing up. That's how insurance works. In fact, you're playing
>into the hands of the insurance industry, as they would be thrilled to
>continue to be able to drop patients as soon as they get sick, and to
>deny coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.

BULLSHIT.  The sick are turned away.  When my son needed reconstructive
open-heart surgery, my then employer dropped my medical insurance as it
would have cost the company more in premiums.  Now, after several trips
to the poor-house, you want to give everyone that which I cannot have.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:48:18 PM
In article <gvLB3RhgiJNv@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <23446935-f1fa-4ae7-8632-94ee830567ae@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If medicine weren't a science you'd probably be dead by now.
>
>   Medicine is not a science.  It is an art.  It takes advantage of
>   the scientific method, has support from research by a lot of
>   scientists, and has greatly advanced since starting to do so, but 
>   that does not make it a science and it is not.

Thank you Bob!  Finally, someone from the otherside of the fence in this
debate with the common sense to point out the truth. 

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:50:02 PM
In article <18d5d6d1-260a-404e-ac4e-8db3db18d518@i25g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 30, 3:52=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <pl9MXT7lX...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koeh...@eisner.nospam=
>..encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>>
>> >In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSpa=
>mHere.ORG writes:
>>
>> >> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
>> >> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>>
>> > =A0 So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>>
>> Work to find one but their hypocritic oath won't let them.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
> by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
>It *is* being worked on.

The "hypocritic" part or the "cure" part?

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 2:52:30 PM
In article <00A9B3A2.C4FA7ABC@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> 
> Why should others pay my bills?  Especially, medical?  How about the
> electric bill?  Gas bill?  Water and sewer bills?  Each person has a
> right to work or not on their own.  Why burden others with my bills
> and why burden me with theirs?

   You should all go to the poor house then, and die?  Having a right to
   work is not the same as having a job that will pay your medical
   bills.

0
koehler2 (8314)
3/31/2010 2:56:30 PM
In article <e8bd0444-d69f-4b00-8c43-75a3e2bc1109@z11g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mar 30, 4:04=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <4bb23867$0$14114$703f8...@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <wb=
>oerhout...@spam.gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> >Bob Koehler mentioned =A0on 30-3-2010 21:06:
>> >> In article<00A9B30D.4758C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSp=
>amHere.ORG writes:
>>
>> >>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bo=
>dies?
>>
>> >> =A0 =A0 The government is going to force you to have health insurance =
>so
>> >> =A0 =A0 that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it wi=
>ll
>> >> =A0 =A0 be paying your bills.
>>
>> >Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things
>> >that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing
>> >"European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...
>>
>> Why should others pay my bills? =A0Especially, medical? =A0How about the
>> electric bill? =A0Gas bill? =A0Water and sewer bills? =A0Each person has =
>a
>> right to work or not on their own. =A0Why burden others with my bills
>> and why burden me with theirs?
>>
>> Besides, there's nothing in this medical bill about medicine. =A0It is
>> a bill to control the insurance companies who have been villified in
>> this but I'm not yet convinced that they didn't want it that way. =A0I
>> just see more robber barons -- backed by government edict -- stealing
>> away more from the hard-working honest citizen.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>dot)ORG
>>
>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>
>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
> by
>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>
>Didn't you tell us you can't afford your medicines? So it's either
>financial ruin or the awful side effects, including the possibility of
>death, for you?

When is the last time YOU stepped into a hospital or a doctor's office?
All I see is elitism.  Hospital lobbies as lavish as some of the finest
resort hotels.  Marble walls and floors, fountains, artwork, etc., that
do nothing positive for my health situation and everything negative for
my financial situation.  Doctor's offices in "professional complexes";
replete with leather furniture and ornate adornment of the walls too.
I have a set of $99 sofas from Ikea... cloth and full of juice stains
from the kids.  I've never seen a doctor's home that couldn't be clas-
sified as a McMansion and I don't see too many driving to their office
or hospital in a Yugo or a Hyundai, and can you also explain how their
vanity tags on their elitist mobiles benefit my health situation?  The
skiing holidays in St. Moritz you need not comment on unless you feel
you have a poignant response.
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

  http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
  
Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is by
turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
0
VAXman
3/31/2010 3:04:18 PM
In article <23446935-f1fa-4ae7-8632-94ee830567ae@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:

> If medicine weren't a science you'd probably be dead by now.

   Medicine is not a science.  It is an art.  It takes advantage of
   the scientific method, has support from research by a lot of
   scientists, and has greatly advanced since starting to do so, but 
   that does not make it a science and it is not.

0
koehler2 (8314)
3/31/2010 3:15:40 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <bd895a10-22cb-44f8-82e2-108169fa6fa0@l25g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Mar 29, 8:55=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <add7de56-09fa-4759-b179-81e823457...@z35g2000yqd.googlegroups=
>> ..com>, FrankS <sapie...@noesys.com> writes:
>>>> On Mar 29, 4:59=3DA0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>>> Irrelevant.
>>>>> Being forced to buy insurance is a facist concept.
>>>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>>>> to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
>>>> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>>>> it.
>>> You have no right to drive. =A0It's a privilege and if you want to do
>>> so, you need to have the insurance coverage to do so. =A0That said, I
>>> think this is just more big-brother-and-the-insurance-company trying
>>> to legislate their way into the public trough^H^H^H^H^H^Hwallet.
>>>
>>> --
>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>> dot)ORG
>>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>>
>>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
>> by
>>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>> Didn't you say you can't afford your medicines?
> 
> Yup.  I've given to taking one only once every other day; another I take
> once instead of twice a day.  I have a terribel vitamin-D deficiency too 
> but the Rx for the mega-doze of vit-D is just out of the question for my
> perceived benefit so I've stopped buying it.  I'm tempted to get Warfarin
> at a hardware store as it's cheaper by magnitudes than the same compound
> from the pharmacy. ;)
> 
> 

The standards for rat poison are somewhat lower than the standards for
medicine intended for human consumption.  Nobody really gives a shit 
what else gets into rat poison.  Nobody really gives a shit if the rat 
gets 50mg or 500mg; either dose will cure the rat! ;-)

--
I don't want to hurt rich people.  I want to BE rich!

0
rgilbert88 (4439)
3/31/2010 3:37:18 PM
On Mar 30, 6:05=A0pm, GreyCloud <m...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > Bob Koehler wrote:
> >> In article <00A9B2EE.3C8B3...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, =A0 VAXman- =A0
> >> @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> >>> I'd still rather see medicine approached as a way to cure the disease
> >>> and not just prolong it by treating its symptoms.
>
> >> =A0 =A0So when there is no cure, what should medicine do?
>
> > Treat the symptoms or let the patient die! =A0Untreated diabetes will k=
ill
> > you sooner or later. =A0AFAIK, insulin injections are the only availabl=
e
> > treatment for type one diabetes. =A0For type two, there are numerous or=
al
> > medications available, at great expense of course.
>
> > Type one diabetes is believed to be an autoimmune disease; the body's
> > immune systetm attacks the insulin producing cells.
>
> > Type two appears to be a reaction to too much sugar in your diet. =A0I
> > used to live on Coca-Cola. =A0These days it's diet coke. With a dash of
> > lime juice please! =A0It helps kill the icky taste of the artificial
> > sweetener.
>
> Read the ingredients on that can of coke. =A0Then google for that
> ingredient that is the sweetener. =A0Also, check where the coke was
> bottled. =A0All major cities use flouride in the water and they don't hav=
e
> to list that if they didn't add that.

Fluoride! A commie plot to be sure!

>
> I used to drink diet-coke till I got a nasty 9mm kidney stone. =A0Had tha=
t
> removed and analyzed and the urologist said it was from drinking
> diet-coke, and of course asked me if I was drinking that stuff.
> But google on the hazards of aspartame. =A0Bad stuff.

Soda is poison.


AEF
0
3/31/2010 3:39:23 PM
On Mar 30, 9:51=A0pm, B...@rabbit.turquoisewitch.com () wrote:
> In article <6ZXcEzuwh...@eisner.encompasserve.org>, Bob Koehler wrote:
> >In article <XMCdnQimWqqXRTLWnZ2dnUVZ_uadn...@bresnan.com>, GreyCloud <m.=
...@cumulus.com> writes:
>
> >> Hardly. =A0Every time I go in for an annual check up, the dr. wants to=
 run
> >> some kind of test even tho everything is fine. =A0They just drum up
> >> business that way.
>
> > =A0 Isn't testig a few basics what a checkup is for? =A0Of course, you
> > =A0 can say no.
>
> A check-up need not include any lab tests. =A0It can be done with otoscop=
e,
> stethoscope, and the provider's eyes, ears, and touch.

Blood tests are essential, for one.

>
> Providers fall into two general categories: those who will only do what i=
s
> absolutely necessary, and those who will look for opportunities to load u=
p on
> tests, etc.
>
> Surprisingly, in my experience, the first group far outnumbers the seccon=
d.
> Insurance companies watch for that sort of thing, more often than you
> might think. =A0Medicare itself has a core concept of "medical necessity"=
; the
> "carriers" who actually pay providers will pay less (or not at all) for
> unnecessary tests or procedures.

AEF
0
3/31/2010 3:41:05 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 31-3-2010 16:48:
> In article<06ba1205-88f8-4bdc-bf70-b413b361119d@o24g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman<alanfeldman48@gmail.com>  writes:
>> On Mar 29, 10:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<horfr0$r0...@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt<g...@ugc=
>> s.caltech.edu>  writes:
>>>> FrankS<sapie...@noesys.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>>>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>>>>> to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
>>>>> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>>>>> it.
>>>
>>>> Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.
>>>
>>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies=
>> ?
>>>
>>> :)
>>>
>>> --
>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>> dot)ORG
>>>
>>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>>
>>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
>> by
>>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>>
>> You can't have a sustainable health insurance scheme if only the sick
>> are signing up. That's how insurance works. In fact, you're playing
>> into the hands of the insurance industry, as they would be thrilled to
>> continue to be able to drop patients as soon as they get sick, and to
>> deny coverage to those with pre-existing conditions.
>
> BULLSHIT.  The sick are turned away.  When my son needed reconstructive
> open-heart surgery, my then employer dropped my medical insurance as it
> would have cost the company more in premiums.  Now, after several trips
> to the poor-house, you want to give everyone that which I cannot have.
>

And that's exactly why some form of government is necessary. You 
then-employer's reaction is scandalous and, over here, prohibited by law.

/Wilm
0
3/31/2010 4:13:59 PM
Alan Feldman mentioned  on 31-3-2010 15:16:
> On Mar 30, 1:44 pm, Wilm Boerhout<wboerhout...@spam.gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Bob Koehler mentioned  on 30-3-2010 21:06:
>>
>>> In article<00A9B30D.4758C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,   VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>>>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies?
>>
>>>      The government is going to force you to have health insurance so
>>>      that the young healthy folks who are also forced to have it will
>>>      be paying your bills.
>>
>> Right. It's called solidarity. It's one of the leftist European things
>> that Ms. Palin loathes. Did you see her the other day pronouncing
>> "European" as if we are all sponsored by Dante...
>>
>> /Wilm
>
> And you prefer that your insurance company drop you as soon as you get
> a serious illness? Andyou prefer those with pre-existing conditions be
> turned down? Those who don't suffer from this benefit from laws that
> prevent employer-sponsered insurance to do such things. So it's okay
> for you to benefit (I assume you wouldn't be arguing this if you
> weren't), but not others?
>
> Left or not is not the question. Overall benefit to the common good
> is.
>
> AEF

In my reality, insurance companies take all, no exceptions. You cannot 
be turned down. Also, you cannot be forced out once you develop a (acute 
or chronic) disease. OTOH, everyone is forced into the base insurance, 
and a (substantial) sum of tax is set aside to pay the medical bills. So 
we pay more taxes, but we are all insured, independent of employer 
sponsoring. This sponsoring may still occur, for extra and/or luxury 
and/or voluntary/eclectic medical aid, but when that stops, base 
insurance is still covered. This is considerd adequate by most. (and 
always an issue at elections, but so far the general principle holds).

/Wilm
0
3/31/2010 4:19:27 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 31-3-2010 16:31:
> In article<d58b8f09-5a7a-4637-8c1e-c290a36f0d7b@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman<alanfeldman48@gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> Oh, please. If you had serious health problems you couldn't afford,
>> should we just let you die?
>
> Some people have chosen that path over the medical practitioner's
> potions and bloodletting prolonging their agony.  There is still,
> IMHO, one thing that *is* mine.   Your buddies that have plagued
> the capitol rotunda are trying now to usurp that too.

The "right to die dignified" is somehow also in our system. You can even 
ask for euthanasia, and provided at least two independant doctors (not 
being your own GP) supervise the decision and the process, stating you 
are of sound mind, you will be assisted and no one will be prosecuted. 
Life insurance is not at risk provided all legal obligations have been 
met. Guess where we get the flak from? US of A mostly...

/Wilm

0
3/31/2010 4:35:39 PM
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 31-3-2010 20:42:
> In article<4bb379dc$0$14128$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout<wboerhout.no@spam.gmail.com>  writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 31-3-2010 16:31:
>>> In article<d58b8f09-5a7a-4637-8c1e-c290a36f0d7b@15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman<alanfeldman48@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>
>>>> Oh, please. If you had serious health problems you couldn't afford,
>>>> should we just let you die?
>>>
>>> Some people have chosen that path over the medical practitioner's
>>> potions and bloodletting prolonging their agony.  There is still,
>>> IMHO, one thing that *is* mine.   Your buddies that have plagued
>>> the capitol rotunda are trying now to usurp that too.
>>
>> The "right to die dignified" is somehow also in our system. You can even
>> ask for euthanasia, and provided at least two independant doctors (not
>> being your own GP) supervise the decision and the process, stating you
>> are of sound mind, you will be assisted and no one will be prosecuted.
>> Life insurance is not at risk provided all legal obligations have been
>> met. Guess where we get the flak from? US of A mostly...
>
> Jack Kevorkian should have practiced his art in .NL, instead of inside
> d|i|g|i|t|a|l, Compaq and HP. :)  ...just to get this back on a topical
> track.

That's just what I mean. I know of Kevorkian. I'm very sad that you 
completely miss the point, and sorry that you have the misfortune to be 
born in a country that doesn't take care of its citizens. Very sorry 
indeed. For what it's woth, I wish you the very best.

/Wilm

0
3/31/2010 6:19:42 PM
In article <4bb374c8$0$14127$703f8584@textnews.kpn.nl>, Wilm Boerhout <wboerhout.no@spam.gmail.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG mentioned  on 31-3-2010 16:48:
>> In article<06ba1205-88f8-4bdc-bf70-b413b361119d@o24g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman<alanfeldman48@gmail.com>  writes:
>>> On Mar 29, 10:14=A0pm, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<horfr0$r0...@naig.caltech.edu>, glen herrmannsfeldt<g...@ugc=
>>> s.caltech.edu>  writes:
>>>>> FrankS<sapie...@noesys.com>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> In NY State (and I suspect most, if not all others) you are required
>>>>>> to carry automobile liability insurance. =A0Clearly, we've been
>>>>>> operating with a facist government for quite some time, so get over
>>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>> Well, as far as I know, only if you actually have a car.
>>>>
>>>> So the gov't can force us to have health insurance because we have bodies=
>>> ?
>>>>
>>>> :)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
>>> dot)ORG
>>>>
>>>> =A0http://www.quirkfactory.com/popart/asskey/eqn2.png
>>>>
>>>> Yeah. You know, it occurs to me that the best way you hurt rich people is=
>>> by
>>>> turning them into poor people. -- Billy Ray Valentine
>>>
>>> You can't have a sustainable health insurance scheme if only the sick
>>> are signing up. That's how insurance works. In fact, you're playing
>>> into the hands of the insurance industry, as they would be thrilled to
>>> continue to be able to drop patients as soon as they get sick, and to
>>> deny coverage to those