Hi.  I have an question I hope somebody can help me with, regarding
running Kermit-95 to emulate a VT320 on a VMS system.

For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
working only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to
do
on a VMS system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and
get some advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup
world.

I am having a problem using Kermit-95 talking to a VMS system,
emulating
a vt320. I have raised this with kermit support, and already Frank da
Cruz is on the case.  However I thought it might be possible to
shortcut
this - there must be others out there using this combination, and
maybe
have already experienced this issue and found a workaround.

The problem is that it is not displaying an ascii-26 character. A
normal
VT320 displays a backward question mark. When I tried using
Reflections
terminal emulator, that did the same.  However the company are
unwilling
to pay for Reflections, just to use on a platform they no longer see
in
their long term technical direction. Kermit does not display anything,
not even a blank space.

This is catastrophic for using TPU to edit a file, as TPU uses the
ascii
26 character as a replacement to display any undisplayable character.
So
the display puts nothing on the screen and shoves the rest of the line
leftwards on the display. So you think you are inserting something in
one place, and it ends up somewhere else.  The whole file ends up a
horrible mess.

Frank, the kermit super-hero has contacted me, and is on the case with
seeing if he can get kermit to adhere to the VT320 standard. In the
mean
time, surely someone seen this before, do you know of a workaround?

Cheers, John

In article <0b45a636-3350-4120-8d89-5de3daddef14@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Big John <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> writes:
>Hi.  I have an question I hope somebody can help me with, regarding
>running Kermit-95 to emulate a VT320 on a VMS system.
>
>For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
>working only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to
>do
>on a VMS system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and
>get some advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup
>world.
>
>I am having a problem using Kermit-95 talking to a VMS system,
>emulating
>a vt320. I have raised this with kermit support, and already Frank da
>Cruz is on the case.  However I thought it might be possible to
>shortcut
>this - there must be others out there using this combination, and
>maybe
>have already experienced this issue and found a workaround.
>
>The problem is that it is not displaying an ascii-26 character. A
>normal
>VT320 displays a backward question mark. When I tried using
>Reflections
>terminal emulator, that did the same.  However the company are
>unwilling
>to pay for Reflections, just to use on a platform they no longer see
>in
>their long term technical direction. Kermit does not display anything,
>not even a blank space.
>
>This is catastrophic for using TPU to edit a file, as TPU uses the
>ascii
>26 character as a replacement to display any undisplayable character.
>So
>the display puts nothing on the screen and shoves the rest of the line
>leftwards on the display. So you think you are inserting something in
>one place, and it ends up somewhere else.  The whole file ends up a
>horrible mess.
>
>Frank, the kermit super-hero has contacted me, and is on the case with
>seeing if he can get kermit to adhere to the VT320 standard. In the
>mean
>time, surely someone seen this before, do you know of a workaround?
>
>Cheers, John

If you're on unix, why not:

- (on VMS) setup the font server on the VMS box
  - edit SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTSERVER.COM
    change:  $ decw$start_font_server == "F" 
    to read: $ decw$start_font_server == "T"
  - restart DECWindows
    $ @SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTUP RESTART

- (on *ix) xset +fp tcp/{VMShost name or IP}:7100

- (on *ix) ssh -X {VMShost name or IP}

- (on VMS) $ CREATE/TERMINAL

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> - (on VMS) setup the font server on the VMS box
>   - edit SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTSERVER.COM
>     change:  $ decw$start_font_server == "F" 
>     to read: $ decw$start_font_server == "T"
>   - restart DECWindows
>     $ @SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTUP RESTART
> 
> - (on *ix) xset +fp tcp/{VMShost name or IP}:7100
> 
> - (on *ix) ssh -X {VMShost name or IP}
> 
> - (on VMS) $ CREATE/TERMINAL

actually, it should be CREATE/TERMINAL/DETACHED ...

also, you can use EDIT/TPU/INTERFACE=DECW and you get a decwindows TPU.
The xset command that Mr VAXman showed will ensure you get the right
fonts. No need for kermit .

On 2010-06-29 11:38, Big John wrote:
> Hi.  I have an question I hope somebody can help me with, regarding
> running Kermit-95 to emulate a VT320 on a VMS system.
>
> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
> working only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to
> do
> on a VMS system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and
> get some advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup
> world.
>
> I am having a problem using Kermit-95 talking to a VMS system,
> emulating
> a vt320. I have raised this with kermit support, and already Frank da
> Cruz is on the case.  However I thought it might be possible to
> shortcut
> this - there must be others out there using this combination, and
> maybe
> have already experienced this issue and found a workaround.
>
> The problem is that it is not displaying an ascii-26 character. A
> normal
> VT320 displays a backward question mark. When I tried using
> Reflections
> terminal emulator, that did the same.  However the company are
> unwilling
> to pay for Reflections, just to use on a platform they no longer see
> in
> their long term technical direction. Kermit does not display anything,
> not even a blank space.
>
> This is catastrophic for using TPU to edit a file, as TPU uses the
> ascii
> 26 character as a replacement to display any undisplayable character.
> So
> the display puts nothing on the screen and shoves the rest of the line
> leftwards on the display. So you think you are inserting something in
> one place, and it ends up somewhere else.  The whole file ends up a
> horrible mess.
>
> Frank, the kermit super-hero has contacted me, and is on the case with
> seeing if he can get kermit to adhere to the VT320 standard. In the
> mean
> time, surely someone seen this before, do you know of a workaround?
>
> Cheers, John


You never said what your client environment is. Unix ? Windows ?
Have you thought about or tested PyTTY ?

In article <4c29f6ec$0$5477$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> - (on VMS) setup the font server on the VMS box
>>   - edit SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTSERVER.COM
>>     change:  $ decw$start_font_server == "F" 
>>     to read: $ decw$start_font_server == "T"
>>   - restart DECWindows
>>     $ @SYS$STARTUP:DECW$STARTUP RESTART
>> 
>> - (on *ix) xset +fp tcp/{VMShost name or IP}:7100
>> 
>> - (on *ix) ssh -X {VMShost name or IP}
>> 
>> - (on VMS) $ CREATE/TERMINAL
>
>actually, it should be CREATE/TERMINAL/DETACHED ...

$ CREATE/TERMINAL 

Works... it's all in the semantics of how you want to handle the process
attached to the terminal.

>
>also, you can use EDIT/TPU/INTERFACE=DECW and you get a decwindows TPU.
>The xset command that Mr VAXman showed will ensure you get the right
>fonts. No need for kermit .

Well, this may all be moot once people degrade to V8.4.

$ MCR DECW$PUZZLE
X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
XIO:  fatal IO error 65535 (network partner disconnected logical link) on X 
server "_WSA2:"
      after 0 requests (0 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
X Error of failed request:  BadConnection (fatal error on display connection)
  Major opcode of failed request:  1 (X_CreateWindow)
  Serial number of failed request:  0
  Current serial number in output stream:  0
%XLIB-E-ERROREVENT, error event received from server
Xlib: client uses different protocol version (11) than server (0)!
%DECW-E-CANT_OPEN_DISPL, Can't open display
$

Happens on both Alpha and Integrity.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

VAXman- <@sendspamhere.org> wrote:

> If you're on unix, why not:

   If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
Kermit 95?

   There are many terminal emulators for Windows (and many of
them are free), but I don't know how many of them display what
to replace which funny characters.

   There is something to be said for running an X server
(again, free ones exist) on the Windows system, and using a
genuine DECterm (running on the VMS system, displayed on the
Windows system).

In article <b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda <sms.antinode@gmail.com> writes:
>VAXman- <@sendspamhere.org> wrote:
>
>> If you're on unix, why not:
>
>   If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>Kermit 95?

Jon wrote:

>For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some 
>advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.

Company policy... only unix...

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antinode@gmail.com>  writes:
>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>  wrote:
>>
>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>
>>    If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>> Kermit 95?
>
> Jon wrote:
>
>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>
> Company policy... only unix...
>

It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.

"Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.

In article <i0cv0m$5a8$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antinode@gmail.com>  writes:
>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>>
>>>    If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>>> Kermit 95?
>>
>> Jon wrote:
>>
>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>
>> Company policy... only unix...
>>
>
>It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>
>"Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.

Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
not implicate the use of WEENDOZE.  If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
his intentions more clearly.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article<i0cv0m$5a8$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antinode@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>>>
>>>>     If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>>>> Kermit 95?
>>>
>>> Jon wrote:
>>>
>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>>
>>> Company policy... only unix...
>>>
>>
>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>>
>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>
> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE.  If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
> his intentions more clearly.
>

You read to much into that... :-)

Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
a Windows Server admin or similar).

Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
that leaves us with Windows.


You might also try not to sound childish with your
idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...

In article <i0d010$72q$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<i0cv0m$5a8$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antinode@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>>>>
>>>>>     If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>>>>> Kermit 95?
>>>>
>>>> Jon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>>>
>>>> Company policy... only unix...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>>>
>>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>>
>> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
>> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE.  If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
>> his intentions more clearly.
>>
>
>You read to much into that... :-)
>
>Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
>that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
>a Windows Server admin or similar).

Look, If he's got *ix system then he ought use them.  


>Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
>You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.

Well, I don't follow all the nuances of Kermit.


>I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
>that leaves us with Windows.
>
>
>You might also try not to sound childish with your
>idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...

When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
the "idiotic" spelling of it.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Sorry I was so unclear on this. I will try to do a bit better on my
second
attempt
On Jun 29, 10:38=A0am, Big John <john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com>
wrote:
>  [...]
> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
> working only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to
> do on a VMS system - yeehaw
> [...]

Okay, what I actually meant was all the *remote* sites I am connecting
to are all Unix machines. The software we provide to customers is now
Unix only - except for a venerable old customer who wants help with a
VMS system.

However, I attach to the remote VMS site with a Weendoze box. This is
not my choice - not even my company's choice. Ericsson now have a
'secure' gateway connection that runs only on windows. This is the
only
way they allow us in, as their software checks if my pc is running
Ericsson-approved anti-virus software, and blocks the connection if
not (please don't laugh, but the only connections they consider
'secure' are ones that use Ericsson-approved anti-virus software, and
must therefore be running on Windows).

This leaves me in a hole. I have to use a pc for my local side. When
connecting to the Unix boxes, I use putty, but to get better VMS
terminal emulation, I am trying out Kermit-96 for this new connection.

Kermit seems a lot better, but it suffers from the problem I have
described with displaying non-displayable characters. I tried putty,
but that is just the same for this particular issue, so is just as
bad,
but without all the nice VMS keyboard emulation that Kermit has.

Cheers, John

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
> 


Next version of Windows is 8.   That is when it will have parity with
VMS 6.0 if I recall corectly.  (remember the ad that was not shown that
stated thet Windows 8 will be where VMS was back then ?)

So Windows is unfortunatly not the idiotic toy it used to be.

Note that canadian telcos as well as AT&T have deployed IPTV systems
using not only WindowsCE as the TV controller in homes, but also Windows
servers to deliver the IPTV content to customers.

What is funny is that it requires 63 Windows instances (yes, sixty
three), which Microsoft suggest can be virtualised on only 10 hardware
servers. But you still need 63 instances MINIMUM to run their IPTV service.

Perhaps Windows 88 will have parity with VMS 5.5-2  (Or perhaps HP will
regress VMS down to allow Windows to reach parity quicker !)

In article <24e6d33e-cb07-4a2a-b901-ccdb8afd5754@j4g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, Big John <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> writes:
>Sorry I was so unclear on this. I will try to do a bit better on my
>second
>attempt
>On Jun 29, 10:38=A0am, Big John <john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com>
>wrote:
>>  [...]
>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
>> working only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to
>> do on a VMS system - yeehaw
>> [...]
>
>Okay, what I actually meant was all the *remote* sites I am connecting
>to are all Unix machines. The software we provide to customers is now
>Unix only - except for a venerable old customer who wants help with a
>VMS system.
>
>However, I attach to the remote VMS site with a Weendoze box. This is
>not my choice - not even my company's choice. Ericsson now have a
>'secure' gateway connection that runs only on windows. This is the
>only
>way they allow us in, as their software checks if my pc is running
>Ericsson-approved anti-virus software, and blocks the connection if
>not (please don't laugh, but the only connections they consider
>'secure' are ones that use Ericsson-approved anti-virus software, and
>must therefore be running on Windows).
>
>This leaves me in a hole. I have to use a pc for my local side. When
>connecting to the Unix boxes, I use putty, but to get better VMS
>terminal emulation, I am trying out Kermit-96 for this new connection.
>
>Kermit seems a lot better, but it suffers from the problem I have
>described with displaying non-displayable characters. I tried putty,
>but that is just the same for this particular issue, so is just as
>bad,
>but without all the nice VMS keyboard emulation that Kermit has.

I don't use PuTTY -- save to fill cracks ;) -- but doesn't it have the
equivalent of ssh and ssh-tunneling?  Does the WEENDOZE box have an X11
server?  If so, try the ssh -X tunneling and the WEENDOZE equivalent of
the 'xset +fp' command.

Sorry but when I touch a WEENDOZE box it's via Cygwin because the ONLY
WEENDOZE box I do touch is 1500 miles away and I couldn't find any VGA
cable long enough. :)


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

In article <4c2a079b$0$10419$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
>> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>> 
>
>
>Next version of Windows is 8.   That is when it will have parity with
>VMS 6.0 if I recall corectly.  (remember the ad that was not shown that
>stated thet Windows 8 will be where VMS was back then ?)
>
>So Windows is unfortunatly not the idiotic toy it used to be.
>
>Note that canadian telcos as well as AT&T have deployed IPTV systems
>using not only WindowsCE as the TV controller in homes, but also Windows
>servers to deliver the IPTV content to customers.
>
>What is funny is that it requires 63 Windows instances (yes, sixty
>three), which Microsoft suggest can be virtualised on only 10 hardware
>servers. But you still need 63 instances MINIMUM to run their IPTV service.
>
>Perhaps Windows 88 will have parity with VMS 5.5-2  (Or perhaps HP will
>regress VMS down to allow Windows to reach parity quicker !)

Are these the same Canadian internet providers that are telling you that
you can only achieve 300kbps on DOCSIS-3?


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article<i0cv0m$5a8$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik 
>> Soderholm<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In 
>>>> article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d128a@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, 
>>>> Steven Schweda<sms.antinode@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>>>>
>>>>>     If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>>>>> Kermit 95?
>>>>
>>>> Jon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been 
>>>>> working
>>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on 
>>>>> a VMS
>>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>>>
>>>> Company policy... only unix...
>>>>
>>>
>>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>>>
>>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>>
>> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
>> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE.  If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
>> his intentions more clearly.
>>
> 
> You read to much into that... :-)
> 
> Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
> that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
> a Windows Server admin or similar).
> 
> Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
> You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
> I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
> that leaves us with Windows.
> 
> 
> You might also try not to sound childish with your
> idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
> 

A dozen years ago, Windows deserved most of the abuse directed at it.
W/2K and W/XP were and still are, desktop systems that work.  I'm using 
W/XP SP3 right now. It has been working for years.

I also use VMS, Solaris, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux.  All four 
operating systems work and have for many years now.  I keep all four 
around because each has strong points as well as week points.  I just 
try to pick the right tool for the job at hand.

On Jun 29, 7:49 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
[...]
>
> I don't use PuTTY -- save to fill cracks ;) -- but doesn't it have the
> equivalent of ssh and ssh-tunneling?  Does the WEENDOZE box have an X11
> server?  If so, try the ssh -X tunneling and the WEENDOZE equivalent of
> the 'xset +fp' command.

That assumes Big John has an X11 server running on his
desktop.  Not necessarily a good assumption.  I think I'm
the only one here at work that runs X11 (via Reflections-X).
The other unix sysadmins just use PuTTY, or telnet under
Reflections.

> Sorry but when I touch a WEENDOZE box it's via Cygwin because the ONLY
> WEENDOZE box I do touch is 1500 miles away and I couldn't find any VGA
> cable long enough. :)

I need to try putting Cygwin or similar up on my home PC.
My impression is that one needs to be pretty adept at
configuring *nix software to get it installed (which shouldn't
be a problem for OP).

    -Ken

In article <5adedcaf-19e0-4494-a72d-2f86b36cf7bc@r27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfield@gmail.com> writes:
>On Jun 29, 7:49 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>[...]
>>
>> I don't use PuTTY -- save to fill cracks ;) -- but doesn't it have the
>> equivalent of ssh and ssh-tunneling?  Does the WEENDOZE box have an X11
>> server?  If so, try the ssh -X tunneling and the WEENDOZE equivalent of
>> the 'xset +fp' command.
>
>That assumes Big John has an X11 server running on his
>desktop.  Not necessarily a good assumption.  I think I'm
>the only one here at work that runs X11 (via Reflections-X).
>The other unix sysadmins just use PuTTY, or telnet under
>Reflections.
>
>> Sorry but when I touch a WEENDOZE box it's via Cygwin because the ONLY
>> WEENDOZE box I do touch is 1500 miles away and I couldn't find any VGA
>> cable long enough. :)
>
>I need to try putting Cygwin or similar up on my home PC.
>My impression is that one needs to be pretty adept at
>configuring *nix software to get it installed (which shouldn't
>be a problem for OP).

It has a GUI (WEENDOZE GUI) interface for initial install.  Select the 
component you want installed.  A fellow at the remote site put it onto
the box and I told him to select everything.

I configured ssh and now I have no real knowledge that this box is a
WEENDOZE box.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Big John wrote:
> Sorry I was so unclear on this. I will try to do a bit better on my
> second
> attempt

   It's a start, but ...

> Okay, what I actually meant was [...]

   I guessed that.  (Others didn't, obviously.)

> [...] I am connecting to [...]

   You are "connecting to" _how_, exactly?  Dial-up modem?
Telnet?  SSH?  VPN?  ...???

   On those rare occasions when I needed to talk to a VMS
system from a Windows system, I had some success using
TeraTerm (Pro?), a free download (from somewhere).  No idea if
it'll do better on this particular complaint.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Are these the same Canadian internet providers that are telling you that
> you can only achieve 300kbps on DOCSIS-3?

Nop, windows based IPTV servers are used by telephone companies over
their old copper. (Bell Canada now pretends that copper is an optical
network to make its netowrk look a bit more modern).

DOCSIS is used by cable companies. They are the ones who stated you
couldn't get abov 10mbps in upstream speed on the coax (let alone for an
individual user).

BTW, X-windows was initially mentioned because the OP mentioned he was
using Unix.  At that point in time, it was not known that the OP was
actually using a Microsoft platform as desktop.

In this day and age though, a user managing/using Unix systems from a
desktop should have X11 terminal running on hos/het/its workstation,
even if just to run a text editor to edit configs on the unix system.
The 1970s "vi" is just a tad dated in term of technology.

Having the ability to have multiple xterms and editors opened at the
same time makes a huge difference in productivity, especially f you need
one for a "man" page as you type some convoluted unix command.

On 29 jun, 16:47, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> What is funny is that it requires 63 Windows instances (yes, sixty
> three), which Microsoft suggest can be virtualised on only 10 hardware
> servers. But you still need 63 instances MINIMUM to run their IPTV service.
>

Is this maybe not also due to the fact that most systems (OpenVMS is
definitely
no exception) only support a limited number of sockets ?

In article <593e360a-a783-4d35-ae87-37fa149c831e@d37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Jose Baars <peutbaars@googlemail.com> writes:
>On 29 jun, 16:47, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
>> What is funny is that it requires 63 Windows instances (yes, sixty
>> three), which Microsoft suggest can be virtualised on only 10 hardware
>> servers. But you still need 63 instances MINIMUM to run their IPTV service.
>>
>
>Is this maybe not also due to the fact that most systems (OpenVMS is
>definitely
>no exception) only support a limited number of sockets ?

16 bits only goes so far...

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On 2010-06-29 22:33, JF Mezei wrote:

> BTW, X-windows was initially mentioned because the OP mentioned he was
> using Unix.

No, he did not. He said he was "working on Unix".
He said nothing (directly) about his client envir.
Just as I spend most of my time "working in VMS" but do not
(not ever, actualy) have a VMS desktop.

> At that point in time, it was not known that the OP was actually using a
> Microsoft platform as desktop.

Since Kermit95 only supports Windows, it was known, in a way.
If he don't use OS/2, but I guess not...

>
> In this day and age though, a user managing/using Unix systems from a
> desktop should have X11 terminal running on hos/het/its workstation,
> even if just to run a text editor to edit configs on the unix system.
> The 1970s "vi" is just a tad dated in term of technology.
>
> Having the ability to have multiple xterms and editors opened at the
> same time makes a huge difference in productivity,

Compared with what ? I have no problem having 5-6 Reflection, PyTTY,
EXTRA! (or whatever) windows opened at the same time, if I need.

In article <i0do4n$deo$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-06-29 22:33, JF Mezei wrote:
>
>> BTW, X-windows was initially mentioned because the OP mentioned he was
>> using Unix.
>
>No, he did not. He said he was "working on Unix".
>He said nothing (directly) about his client envir.
>Just as I spend most of my time "working in VMS" but do not
>(not ever, actualy) have a VMS desktop.
>
>> At that point in time, it was not known that the OP was actually using a
>> Microsoft platform as desktop.
>
>Since Kermit95 only supports Windows, it was known, in a way.
>If he don't use OS/2, but I guess not...

He did say his company went all unix and, since I don't use WEENDOZE,
I didn't know Kermit95 was WEENDOZE only.


>> In this day and age though, a user managing/using Unix systems from a
>> desktop should have X11 terminal running on hos/het/its workstation,
>> even if just to run a text editor to edit configs on the unix system.
>> The 1970s "vi" is just a tad dated in term of technology.
>>
>> Having the ability to have multiple xterms and editors opened at the
>> same time makes a huge difference in productivity,
>
>Compared with what ? I have no problem having 5-6 Reflection, PyTTY,
>EXTRA! (or whatever) windows opened at the same time, if I need.

I get around swimmingly without WEENDOZE.  I use Linux and Mac OS X and
VMS as desktops.  I've never had any need for WEENDOZE and I don't see
any need for WEENDOZE.  I can exist in the world without it and others,
if they'd open their eyes, could do the same.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I get around swimmingly without WEENDOZE. 

I also don't need WIndows to swim.


BTW, I am not entirely sure if there is an actual font that supports the
inverse question mark. In the case of TPU (decwindows interface), the
special characters are not from a font, they are drawn by TPU if I
remember correctly. I had tried ones to find out what font it was using
so I could put DECTerm into "display control characters mode" and found
out those glyphs were not part of an X font.

On Jun 29, 3:47=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> > When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
> > the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>
> Next version of Windows is 8. =A0 That is when it will have parity with
> VMS 6.0 if I recall corectly. =A0(remember the ad that was not shown that
> stated thet Windows 8 will be where VMS was back then ?)
>
> So Windows is unfortunatly not the idiotic toy it used to be.
>
> Note that canadian telcos as well as AT&T have deployed IPTV systems
> using not only WindowsCE as the TV controller in homes, but also Windows
> servers to deliver the IPTV content to customers.
>
> What is funny is that it requires 63 Windows instances (yes, sixty
> three), which Microsoft suggest can be virtualised on only 10 hardware
> servers. But you still need 63 instances MINIMUM to run their IPTV servic=
e.
>
> Perhaps Windows 88 will have parity with VMS 5.5-2 =A0(Or perhaps HP will
> regress VMS down to allow Windows to reach parity quicker !)

The most likely reason the servers run on Windows is because only
closed-source software such as Windows is allowed to have the DRM that
the entertainment industry mandate for their high value content.

The most likely reason the clients run Windows CE is the same reason
BT Vision's IPtv set top box runs on Windows CE, i.e. dirty deals done
dirt cheap.

Obviously I doubt if anyone will admit it but the scenario is that MS
say to BT, you specify WinCE for your STB (MS had no successful STB
projects at the time BT Vision was being designed) and we'll be extra
special nice to you next time there's a potential opportunity for a
joint BT/MS project. One such opportunity might have been the NHS
National Project for IT, a major part of which is, not surprisingly
considering the players mentioned above, a complete disaster.

Practically every other piece of high performance high volume
(relatively) low value consumer electronics in the modern world apart
from WinCE PDAs and their Windows-specific phone equivalents runs ARM
hardware and non-Windows software, whether it be a Linux variant
(almost everyone), SymbianOS (e.g. Nokia), VxWorks (e.g. some
Linksys), or whatever.

In article <4c2a6fcb$0$21237$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I get around swimmingly without WEENDOZE. 
>
>I also don't need WIndows to swim.
>
>
>BTW, I am not entirely sure if there is an actual font that supports the
>inverse question mark. In the case of TPU (decwindows interface), the
>special characters are not from a font, they are drawn by TPU if I
>remember correctly. I had tried ones to find out what font it was using
>so I could put DECTerm into "display control characters mode" and found
>out those glyphs were not part of an X font.

It's not part of TPU.  Put the following in a file:

$ CTRLZ[0,8]=26
$ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "-->''CTRLZ'<--"

Then execute it in a DECterm.  You'll see the backward ?.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> It's not part of TPU.  Put the following in a file:
> 
> $ CTRLZ[0,8]=26
> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "-->''CTRLZ'<--"
> 
> Then execute it in a DECterm.  You'll see the backward ?.

Warning ! VAXman wanted me to execute a virus for VMS ! It would have
corrupted my decterm by displaying some funky character :-)

OK, so the reverse question mark is part of a font.
One possibility would be to use a font utility to convert the X font on
the Alpha to a font usable on windows.

So the TPU glyphs must have been only for the control character stiff
(like that "nl" for null, "cr" for return etc etc.

In article <4c2a58af$0$32462$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> BTW, X-windows was initially mentioned because the OP mentioned he was
> using Unix.  At that point in time, it was not known that the OP was
> actually using a Microsoft platform as desktop.

Fummy, I knew it from the beginning when he said Kermit-95.

> 
> In this day and age though, a user managing/using Unix systems from a
> desktop should have X11 terminal running on hos/het/its workstation,

Matter of opinion.

> even if just to run a text editor to edit configs on the unix system.
> The 1970s "vi" is just a tad dated in term of technology.

Vi works just fine, thank you.  Sometimes more technology just means more
overhead.

 
> Having the ability to have multiple xterms and editors opened at the
> same time makes a huge difference in productivity, especially f you need
> one for a "man" page as you type some convoluted unix command.

Don't need X-11 for that.  Multiple putty windows connected using
SSH are secure, fast and great for cutting and pasting between
windows.

And there are no convoluted Unix commands only people trying to be
Unix experts without the requisite knowledge.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4c2a98fd$0$9825$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> It's not part of TPU.  Put the following in a file:
>> 
>> $ CTRLZ[0,8]=26
>> $ WRITE SYS$OUTPUT "-->''CTRLZ'<--"
>> 
>> Then execute it in a DECterm.  You'll see the backward ?.
>
>Warning ! VAXman wanted me to execute a virus for VMS ! It would have
>corrupted my decterm by displaying some funky character :-)
>
>OK, so the reverse question mark is part of a font.
>One possibility would be to use a font utility to convert the X font on
>the Alpha to a font usable on windows.

A useable font on a useless system?  If this were a Star Trek episode,
that would posit a quandry for Landru the computer and it would explode.
 
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jun 29, 10:37=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <i0d010$72...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik=
..soderh...@telia.com> writes:
> >On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-eri=
k.soderh...@telia.com> =A0writes:
> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegr=
oups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com> =A0 writes:
> >>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org> =A0 wrote:
>
> >>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>
> >>>>> =A0 =A0 If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
> >>>>> Kermit 95?
>
> >>>> Jon wrote:
>
> >>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been w=
orking
> >>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on=
 a VMS
> >>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get so=
me
> >>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>
> >>>> Company policy... only unix...
>
> >>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>
> >>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>
> >> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, do=
es
> >> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE. =A0If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to s=
tate
> >> his intentions more clearly.
>
> >You read to much into that... :-)
>
> >Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
> >that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
> >a Windows Server admin or similar).
>
> Look, If he's got *ix system then he ought use them. =A0
>
> >Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
> >You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
>
> Well, I don't follow all the nuances of Kermit.
>
> >I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
> >that leaves us with Windows.
>
> >You might also try not to sound childish with your
> >idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>
> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG

Yeah, things like WEENDOZE often get tiresome. Like that stupid
message on Firefox when it can't recover your tabs: "Well, this is
embarrassing." (That one was barely good the first time I saw it!) And
then there's one that we once had here where I work: "Service Is
Dying...Only You can save me!". That's an exact quote. Yeah, that one
wore out rather quickly.

But I still get a kick out of WEENDOZE. I can hear it in my head as
it's said with utter contempt. Thanks, Brian.

AEF

AEF

On Jun 29, 11:08 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik
> >> Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>  writes:
> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> In
> >>>> article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroup=
s.com>,
> >>>> Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com>   writes:
> >>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
[...]
> > You might also try not to sound childish with your
> > idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>
> A dozen years ago, Windows deserved most of the abuse directed at it.
> W/2K and W/XP were and still are, desktop systems that work.  I'm using
> W/XP SP3 right now. It has been working for years.

Yep, I remember NT4. It was like driving in a jalopy on Rt. 1 South in
California, which is at the edge of a cliff. One tiny bump in the road
and over you go into bluescreensville.

But I still have problems with recent versions; Outlook, for one.
Keeps getting hung for no apparent reason. And the rules dialog box:
Why the fuck is it so bloody small! I've got 33 rules (some are on the
chopping block -- when they "timeout", they're going to gonesville.)
It shows you only 8 at a time. I need to see them all at once so I can
get them in the right order, which is crucial, of course. So why the
fixed-size window? We paid big bucks (ok, medium bucks) for the big
screens with lots of real estate. Let us use it! Why is there even
such a creature in the first place? It's just more code to maintain,
no?

I set Sticky Keys to show its status on the taskbar/system tray/
whatever-the-f%%%-it=92s-called thingie. After a few hours it starts
corrupting my video, making icons on the taskbar randomly disappear,
for one. I admit, though, that this was much worse on NT4, creating
oversized fonts and incorrectly overlapping windows and more stuff I
can't remember, I think.

More fun: Do a Windows Explorer Search and let it sit overnight. In
the morning the icons have mutated. Some files have no icon, while
many of the others have wrong icons, some of which I=92ve never seen
before, some of which I can=92t even tell what they are!

>
> I also use VMS, Solaris, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux.  All four
> operating systems work and have for many years now.  I keep all four
> around because each has strong points as well as week points.  I just
> try to pick the right tool for the job at hand.

The best things about WINDBLOWS are keyboard shortcuts and time-input
values. The Alt+Underlined_letter trick is awesome. And it actually
works the vast majority of the time. Can any other OS beat that?

Oh, there=92s also F8 in MS-DOS, with the F7/F9 combination also good,
except that F7/F9 doesn=92t let you edit the recalled command. WHY? Bash
also suffers from this stupidity. Again: F8 does let you edit the
command first. (They got *something* right!)

And then there are the various time values you can enter (at least in
Outlook Advanced Find and probably the Reminder dialog box). Here are
a few:

TODAY
TOMORROW
YESTERDAY
13 DAYS AGO
ONE MONTH FROM NOW
YYYY-MM-DD
MM/DD/YYYY
LAST MONDAY
THIS SUNDAY
6 WEEKS FROM NOW
2 MONTHS FROM NOW or simply 2 MONTHS
WED
NEXT WEEK
NOW
JANUARY

AEF

AEF wrote:
> On Jun 29, 11:08 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>> On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik
>>>> Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>  writes:
>>>>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>> In
>>>>>> article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>> Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
> [...]
>>> You might also try not to sound childish with your
>>> idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>> A dozen years ago, Windows deserved most of the abuse directed at it.
>> W/2K and W/XP were and still are, desktop systems that work.  I'm using
>> W/XP SP3 right now. It has been working for years.
> 
> Yep, I remember NT4. It was like driving in a jalopy on Rt. 1 South in
> California, which is at the edge of a cliff. One tiny bump in the road
> and over you go into bluescreensville.
> 
> But I still have problems with recent versions; Outlook, for one.

You don't have to use OUTLOOK!  I've been using the Thunderbird Mail 
Client for a couple of years now.  Before that I used Netscape.  Both 
worked without problems!

In article <9b84f13c-ece7-482b-92d3-06cd8dd7a0c6@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jun 29, 10:37�am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <i0d010$72...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> writes:
>> >On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> >> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> �writes:
>> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> >>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com> � writes:
>> >>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org> � wrote:
>>
>> >>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>
>> >>>>> � � If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>> >>>>> Kermit 95?
>>
>> >>>> Jon wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>> >>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>> >>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>> >>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>
>> >>>> Company policy... only unix...
>>
>> >>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>>
>> >>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>>
>> >> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
>> >> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE. �If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
>> >> his intentions more clearly.
>>
>> >You read to much into that... :-)
>>
>> >Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
>> >that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
>> >a Windows Server admin or similar).
>>
>> Look, If he's got *ix system then he ought use them. �
>>
>> >Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
>> >You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
>>
>> Well, I don't follow all the nuances of Kermit.
>>
>> >I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
>> >that leaves us with Windows.
>>
>> >You might also try not to sound childish with your
>> >idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>>
>> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
>> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>>
>> --
>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker � �VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
> Yeah, things like WEENDOZE often get tiresome. Like that stupid
> message on Firefox when it can't recover your tabs: "Well, this is
> embarrassing." 

What does that have to do with Windows?  Firefox is part of that
great Open Source Revolution, written by a real "perfeshonul programmer".
And, I'll bet you get the same message inthe same situation regardless of 
the underlying OS.

>                (That one was barely good the first time I saw it!) And
> then there's one that we once had here where I work: "Service Is
> Dying...Only You can save me!". That's an exact quote. Yeah, that one
> wore out rather quickly.

And, again, what does that have to do with Windows? 

> But I still get a kick out of WEENDOZE. I can hear it in my head as
> it's said with utter contempt. Thanks, Brian.

Usually by people so out of touch with the IT biz today it is a
wonder they ever find employment.  If you want real tiresome, this
constant rant is definitely it.

bill
(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
mortgage in the real world!)

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>mortgage in the real world!)

WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
for this valuable real world service.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <00A9FBD0.4320019D@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>mortgage in the real world!)
> 
> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
> for this valuable real world service.

That is strictly your choice.  It is what the IT world wants today.
If you are willing to pass up the opportunities then so be it. Bill
gates is not going to chase you to offer you a job and I am certain
he isn't loosing any sleep over the people who choose to remain in
the IT dark ages.  You know, long before there was VMS I worked with
Primos and Exec-8.  And long before that I worked with DOS/E and even
the 1401 (which didn't have an OS as far as I knew).  But I certainly
don't see any likelihood of making a living off of any of them.  Even
keeping my skillset current I still have problems when people look at
where I work and equate that to being out of touch with current tech-
nology because of the location.  When people publicly demonstrate their
total disdain for that current technology, well, I guess you can always
learn to say "Do you want fries with that?"  Or do people here think
no one ever sees any of this?  Amazing what a potential employer can
find out about the applicants for their jobs using something as simple
as Google.  ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29796962/ )

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jun 30, 11:14=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <9b84f13c-ece7-482b-92d3-06cd8dd7a...@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups=
..com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 29, 10:37=A0am, VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article <i0d010$72...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-e=
rik.soderh...@telia.com> writes:
> >> >On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> >> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-=
erik.soderh...@telia.com> =A0writes:
> >> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> >>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googl=
egroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com> =A0 writes:
> >> >>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org> =A0 wrote:
>
> >> >>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>
> >> >>>>> =A0 =A0 If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
> >> >>>>> Kermit 95?
>
> >> >>>> Jon wrote:
>
> >> >>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have bee=
n working
> >> >>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do=
 on a VMS
> >> >>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get=
 some
> >> >>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>
> >> >>>> Company policy... only unix...
>
> >> >>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>
> >> >>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>
> >> >> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC,=
 does
> >> >> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE. =A0If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs t=
o state
> >> >> his intentions more clearly.
>
> >> >You read to much into that... :-)
>
> >> >Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
> >> >that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
> >> >a Windows Server admin or similar).
>
> >> Look, If he's got *ix system then he ought use them. =A0
>
> >> >Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
> >> >You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
>
> >> Well, I don't follow all the nuances of Kermit.
>
> >> >I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
> >> >that leaves us with Windows.
>
> >> >You might also try not to sound childish with your
> >> >idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>
> >> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
> >> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>
> >> --
> >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMES=
IS(dot)ORG
> > Yeah, things like WEENDOZE often get tiresome. Like that stupid
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                     ^^^^
                 ^^^^

[Apologies if the ^'s don't line up. "things like WEENDOZE" and "Like"
were my targets.]


> > message on Firefox when it can't recover your tabs: "Well, this is
> > embarrassing."
>
> What does that have to do with Windows? =A0Firefox is part of that
> great Open Source Revolution, written by a real "perfeshonul programmer".
> And, I'll bet you get the same message inthe same situation regardless of
> the underlying OS.

Nothing, and I didn't say it did. I was talking about the
obnoxiousness of "cutesy" terms. I was talking about *terms getting
tiresome*, not WEENDOZE in particular. And I actually *like* WEENDOZE,
in particular. And I said, in both cases, *like*. Terms *like*
WEENDOZE.

>
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0(That one was barely good the first time=
 I saw it!) And
> > then there's one that we once had here where I work: "Service Is
> > Dying...Only You can save me!". That's an exact quote. Yeah, that one
> > wore out rather quickly.
>
> And, again, what does that have to do with Windows?

Again, nothing. See above.

>
> > But I still get a kick out of WEENDOZE. I can hear it in my head as
> > it's said with utter contempt. Thanks, Brian.
>
> Usually by people so out of touch with the IT biz today it is a
> wonder they ever find employment. =A0If you want real tiresome, this

Why? How? If you're out of touch, you're likely to have contempt for
Windows? I don't see how that follows.

> constant rant is definitely it.

Don't really want tiresome. Sorry, but I always get a kick out of the
term WEENDOZE.

It's like the tribbles on the tribbles episode of Star Trek. It's the
visual gag that just keeps on giving. (Again, not related to Windows,
but connected to "tiresome" via "like".)

>
> bill
> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
> mortgage in the real world!)
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

AEF (Not WEENDOZE, BULLDOZE, or NODOZ; and not a VAX option at this
time.)

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 15:31:36 +0000, VAXman- wrote:

> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill
> Gunshannon) writes:
>>(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the mortgage
>>in the real world!)
> 
> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single
> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
> for this valuable real world service.

That's because you're old.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article <891aafFprbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A9FBD0.4320019D@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>>mortgage in the real world!)
>> 
>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>> for this valuable real world service.
>
>That is strictly your choice.  It is what the IT world wants today.
>If you are willing to pass up the opportunities then so be it. Bill
>gates is not going to chase you to offer you a job and I am certain
>he isn't loosing any sleep over the people who choose to remain in
>the IT dark ages.  You know, long before there was VMS I worked with
>Primos and Exec-8.  And long before that I worked with DOS/E and even
>the 1401 (which didn't have an OS as far as I knew).  But I certainly

You really believe that only WEENDOZE exists for people to earn a living?
So, in your parochial IT world, M$-ers eat while everybody else starves?
That'd be a lot of starving people in the world.

Stop polishing your rocket in that ivory tower and have a look outside.
There's much more to the IT world than M$ Outhouse, X-hell and W(ie)RD.


>don't see any likelihood of making a living off of any of them.  Even
>keeping my skillset current I still have problems when people look at
>where I work and equate that to being out of touch with current tech-
>nology because of the location.  When people publicly demonstrate their
>total disdain for that current technology, well, I guess you can always
>learn to say "Do you want fries with that?"  Or do people here think
>no one ever sees any of this?  Amazing what a potential employer can
>find out about the applicants for their jobs using something as simple
>as Google.  ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29796962/ )

I don't "twit" with twits.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>> for this valuable real world service.
> 
> That is strictly your choice.  It is what the IT world wants today.


Isn't there a shift away from Windows nowadasy ? Isnt Linux gaining
ground for servers and OS-X for desktops ?

In article <4c2b892d$0$21240$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
>>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>>> for this valuable real world service.
>> 
>> That is strictly your choice.  It is what the IT world wants today.
>
>
>Isn't there a shift away from Windows nowadasy ? Isnt Linux gaining
>ground for servers and OS-X for desktops ?

Shhh.  You'll wake the High Lama from his slumbering nirvana of Shangri-M$.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <9b84f13c-ece7-482b-92d3-06cd8dd7a0c6@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> 	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On Jun 29, 10:37 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <i0d010$72...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> writes:
>>>> On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>  writes:
>>>>>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> In article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com>   writes:
>>>>>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org>   wrote:
>>>>>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>>>>>>>>     If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
>>>>>>>> Kermit 95?
>>>>>>> Jon wrote:
>>>>>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been working
>>>>>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on a VMS
>>>>>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get some
>>>>>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>>>>>>> Company policy... only unix...
>>>>>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>>>>>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>>>>> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, does
>>>>> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE.  If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to state
>>>>> his intentions more clearly.
>>>> You read to much into that... :-)
>>>> Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
>>>> that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
>>>> a Windows Server admin or similar).
>>> Look, If he's got *ix system then he ought use them.  
>>>
>>>> Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
>>>> You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
>>> Well, I don't follow all the nuances of Kermit.
>>>
>>>> I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
>>>> that leaves us with Windows.
>>>> You might also try not to sound childish with your
>>>> idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>>> When WEENDOZE stops being the idiotic toy that it is, I'll cease using
>>> the "idiotic" spelling of it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>> Yeah, things like WEENDOZE often get tiresome. Like that stupid
>> message on Firefox when it can't recover your tabs: "Well, this is
>> embarrassing." 
> 
> What does that have to do with Windows?  Firefox is part of that
> great Open Source Revolution, written by a real "perfeshonul programmer".
> And, I'll bet you get the same message inthe same situation regardless of 
> the underlying OS.
> 
>>                (That one was barely good the first time I saw it!) And
>> then there's one that we once had here where I work: "Service Is
>> Dying...Only You can save me!". That's an exact quote. Yeah, that one
>> wore out rather quickly.
> 
> And, again, what does that have to do with Windows? 
> 
>> But I still get a kick out of WEENDOZE. I can hear it in my head as
>> it's said with utter contempt. Thanks, Brian.
> 
> Usually by people so out of touch with the IT biz today it is a
> wonder they ever find employment.  If you want real tiresome, this
> constant rant is definitely it.
> 
> bill
> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
> mortgage in the real world!)
> 

What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
  drool" is all there is!

>
> And then there are the various time values you can enter (at least in
> Outlook Advanced Find and probably the Reminder dialog box). Here are
> a few:
>
> TODAY
> TOMORROW
> YESTERDAY
> 13 DAYS AGO
> ONE MONTH FROM NOW
> YYYY-MM-DD
> MM/DD/YYYY
> LAST MONDAY
> THIS SUNDAY
> 6 WEEKS FROM NOW
> 2 MONTHS FROM NOW or simply 2 MONTHS
> WED
> NEXT WEEK
> NOW
> JANUARY
>

That sure beats F$CVTIME() ...

-- 
Marc Van Dyck

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
> didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
>   drool" is all there is!

http://www.apple.com/ca/macosx/


http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop

In article <3tednaOsHqatCrbRnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <9b84f13c-ece7-482b-92d3-06cd8dd7a0c6@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>> mortgage in the real world!)
>> 
> 
> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
> didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
>   drool" is all there is!

Any of a number of Unix/Linux systems.  Some of which are actually
easier to install than even Windows and have all the necessary tools
available.

I'll bet everyone thought I was going to say VMS!  :-)  Well, believe
it or not, I think it could have been.  There used to be a version with
a smaller footprint designed to run on small VAXen - MicroVMS.  It could
have been all that was needed to support user level desktop apps.
But, that boat has sailed!!!

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>> mortgage in the real world!)
> 
> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
> for this valuable real world service.
> 

With your attitude there's little hope!  Most of us must deal with 
Windows because our employers insist.  Windows paid my bills for a year 
or so; I was well paid for dealing with the "electronic organisms" that 
infested my employer's PCs.  Replacing W/98 with W2K Service Pack 4 
solved most of our problems by closing most of the vulnerabilities that 
were exploited by various bits of malware.

VMS, as we know, does not require a lot of maintenance and much of what 
is required can be done with DCL scripts run under a batch scheduler 
such as JAMS or Polycenter Scheduler.  I had plenty of time to help out 
on the Windows side of the house.  Needless to say, a LOT of help was 
needed.  Upgrading W/98 to W/2K SP 4 solved a lot of the problems.  ISTR 
that W2K was the first release to be free of all traces of MS-DOS and I 
think it would be fair to call it the first really stable release of 
Windows.  The "Blue/Black screen of death" is only a painful memory 
these days.

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:02:08 +0000, VAXman- wrote:

> You really believe that only WEENDOZE exists for people to earn a
> living? So, in your parochial IT world, M$-ers eat while everybody else
> starves? That'd be a lot of starving people in the world.

Quite right. Unix, also embedded systems, is where it's at.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:26:24 +0200, Marc Van Dyck wrote:


>> And then there are the various time values you can enter (at least in
>> Outlook Advanced Find and probably the Reminder dialog box). Here are a
>> few:
>>
>> TODAY
>> TOMORROW
>> YESTERDAY
>> 13 DAYS AGO
>> ONE MONTH FROM NOW
>> YYYY-MM-DD
>> MM/DD/YYYY
>> LAST MONDAY
>> THIS SUNDAY
>> 6 WEEKS FROM NOW
>> 2 MONTHS FROM NOW or simply 2 MONTHS
>> WED
>> NEXT WEEK
>> NOW
>> JANUARY
>>
>>
> That sure beats F$CVTIME() ...

We had a mail system, back in 1980, that did all of that. You could also 
say things like 'after lunch next thursday'...



-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 15:31:49 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it
>> but didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since! 
>> "Click and
>>   drool" is all there is!
> 
> http://www.apple.com/ca/macosx/

Exactly. Unix with a GUI.

> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop

A jumped up Unix wannabe with a GUI.

Both of which are doing very well.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Jun 30, 3:54=A0pm, Bob Eager <rd...@spamcop.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:26:24 +0200, Marc Van Dyck wrote:
> >> And then there are the various time values you can enter (at least in
> >> Outlook Advanced Find and probably the Reminder dialog box). Here are =
a
> >> few:
>
> >> TODAY
> >> TOMORROW
> >> YESTERDAY
> >> 13 DAYS AGO
> >> ONE MONTH FROM NOW
> >> YYYY-MM-DD
> >> MM/DD/YYYY
> >> LAST MONDAY
> >> THIS SUNDAY
> >> 6 WEEKS FROM NOW
> >> 2 MONTHS FROM NOW or simply 2 MONTHS
> >> WED
> >> NEXT WEEK
> >> NOW
> >> JANUARY
>
> > That sure beats F$CVTIME() ...
>
> We had a mail system, back in 1980, that did all of that. You could also
> say things like 'after lunch next thursday'...
>
> --
> Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
> =A0http://www.mirrorservice.org
>
> *lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Cool!

One thing, though: How would anyone know you could type these things
into time fields in Outlook (and they would work)? Does it work in any
other programs? For years I didn't know about this. Just felt brave
one day and typed in YESTERDAY or similar and was surprised that it
worked! You can guess the rest.

That's one thing I hate about personal computers, esp. windows. You
can't just browse for things like this. I also stumbled upon the OR
operator for Windows Explorer Search and Outlook Advanced Find: the
semicolon! (doesn't work in the Phrase field in W.E., though.) How are
we supposed to know about these things! OK, you could guess the
semicolon from disk lists that sometimes appear in the Look In field.
But still. And are there any other cool ultra-secret codes we don't
know about. I've found a number of them for OS X.

Now if Outlook would only stop hanging itself so god damn often.

AEF

JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
>> didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
>>   drool" is all there is!
> 
> http://www.apple.com/ca/macosx/

Apple is too expensive for me!

> 
> 
> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop

I haven't tried Ubunto but I have installed RHEL on a spare PC.  It 
lacks the convenience of Windows.  I keep it around to do a few things 
that can't be done conveniently, or at all, on Windows.

Windows is my desktop.  In addition to Windows and RHEL, I have VMS 
running on a DEC Alpha and Solaris running on a Sun Ultra 10.

In article <97mdnVDQaLQUArbRnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>> mortgage in the real world!)
>> 
>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>> for this valuable real world service.
>> 
>
>With your attitude there's little hope!  Most of us must deal with 
>Windows because our employers insist.  Windows paid my bills for a year 
>or so; I was well paid for dealing with the "electronic organisms" that 
>infested my employer's PCs.  Replacing W/98 with W2K Service Pack 4 
>solved most of our problems by closing most of the vulnerabilities that 
>were exploited by various bits of malware.
>
>VMS, as we know, does not require a lot of maintenance and much of what 
>is required can be done with DCL scripts run under a batch scheduler 
>such as JAMS or Polycenter Scheduler.  I had plenty of time to help out 
>on the Windows side of the house.  Needless to say, a LOT of help was 
>needed.  Upgrading W/98 to W/2K SP 4 solved a lot of the problems.  ISTR 
>that W2K was the first release to be free of all traces of MS-DOS and I 
>think it would be fair to call it the first really stable release of 
>Windows.  The "Blue/Black screen of death" is only a painful memory 
>these days.

Richard, where did I say it had to be VMS if not WEENDOZE?  I have more
non-VMS systems today than I did, oh, say 10 years ago.  I believe that
JF posted two alternative to the WEENDOZE malaise -- Mac OSX and linux,
Ubuntu to be specific.  I have several of each as well as other linuxes
on servers.  I'm using the Ubuntu laptop to type this.  It's got myriad
workspaces with ssh xterm sessions -- this one to VMS to read and post
to usenet.  No terminal emulation is needed.  Nothing cost me anything
either.  X11 comes with linux.  I map a few keys with 'xmodmap' and I'm
good to go.  I can and did very similar things on Mac OSX and, if you 
have seen one, an Apple keyboard better approximates a DEC LK keyboard
far better than any PeeCee keyboard ever will.

The Apple has Keynote for presentations, Pages for word-processing (of
course, I haven't used it preferring Document), web browsers which are
*STANDARDS* based and pass the various standards tests.  Final Cut Pro,
the defacto standard for video editing, and Apreture for photography.

Mac OSX is my mobile radio studio.  It has firewire-800 so I can get a
professional digital audio feed.  I have Nicecast for broadcast and an
Apogee Duet for digital audio conversion.

Where'd I be with WEENDOZE? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tahwQtVStEM
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <3tednaOsHqatCrbRnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> In article <9b84f13c-ece7-482b-92d3-06cd8dd7a0c6@z10g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>>> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>> mortgage in the real world!)
>>>
>> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
>> didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
>>   drool" is all there is!
> 
> Any of a number of Unix/Linux systems.  Some of which are actually
> easier to install than even Windows and have all the necessary tools
> available.
> 
> I'll bet everyone thought I was going to say VMS!  :-)  Well, believe
> it or not, I think it could have been.  There used to be a version with
> a smaller footprint designed to run on small VAXen - MicroVMS.  It could
> have been all that was needed to support user level desktop apps.
> But, that boat has sailed!!!
> 
> bill
> 

I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
something like that.

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
> something like that.

I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.

DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
(DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> And, again, what does that have to do with Windows?

   And what does any of this have to do with the original
question?  Perhaps the smartest thing the original poster did
was not to mention that he was using Windows, any mention of
which here seems to trigger a never-ending avalanche of
pointless "Windows b-a-a-a-a-d" bleating, and comparably
fervent counter-bleating.

   What has noise like this contributed to the usefulness of
this forum?  Or was a useful VMS forum never the goal?

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <97mdnVDQaLQUArbRnZ2dnUVZ_hqdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>> (who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>>> mortgage in the real world!)
>>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>>> for this valuable real world service.
>>>
>> With your attitude there's little hope!  Most of us must deal with 
>> Windows because our employers insist.  Windows paid my bills for a year 
>> or so; I was well paid for dealing with the "electronic organisms" that 
>> infested my employer's PCs.  Replacing W/98 with W2K Service Pack 4 
>> solved most of our problems by closing most of the vulnerabilities that 
>> were exploited by various bits of malware.
>>
>> VMS, as we know, does not require a lot of maintenance and much of what 
>> is required can be done with DCL scripts run under a batch scheduler 
>> such as JAMS or Polycenter Scheduler.  I had plenty of time to help out 
>> on the Windows side of the house.  Needless to say, a LOT of help was 
>> needed.  Upgrading W/98 to W/2K SP 4 solved a lot of the problems.  ISTR 
>> that W2K was the first release to be free of all traces of MS-DOS and I 
>> think it would be fair to call it the first really stable release of 
>> Windows.  The "Blue/Black screen of death" is only a painful memory 
>> these days.
> 
> Richard, where did I say it had to be VMS if not WEENDOZE?  I have more
> non-VMS systems today than I did, oh, say 10 years ago.  I believe that

It doesn't, nor did I say you said it did.  I run Windows XP for my 
desktop.  I have an old PC running Red Hat Linux, an Alpha running VMS, 
and a Sun Ultra 10 running Solaris.  I even have a VAX for old times 
sake! I keep all this hardware wasting electricity because not one of 
them will do EVERYTHING that I wish to do and do it easily/conveniently!

The Windows that you so despise is my desktop.  The fact that 
applications for Windows are readily available and more or less 
affordable is why I run a Windows system as my primary system.
For VMS or Unix systems it's mostly "roll your own" or do without.
I might be able get "Hobbyist" licenses for some VMS based applications 
but most applications I need are things that I would run on my PC  I 
have the "basic three" Word Processor, Spreadsheet, and Database that I 
can use without restriction.

JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
>> something like that.
> 
> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
> 
> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.

And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology?  I 
suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with 
Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and 
database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.

In article <FpOdnULcC6okOrbRnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>JF Mezei wrote:
>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> 
>>> What would you replace Windows *with*??????  OS/2 might have done it but 
>>> didn't.  AFAIK there has not been a serious contender since!  "Click and 
>>>   drool" is all there is!
>> 
>> http://www.apple.com/ca/macosx/
>
>Apple is too expensive for me!

Ah... the myth continues...


>> http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop
>
>I haven't tried Ubunto but I have installed RHEL on a spare PC.  It 
>lacks the convenience of Windows.  I keep it around to do a few things 
>that can't be done conveniently, or at all, on Windows.
>
>Windows is my desktop.  In addition to Windows and RHEL, I have VMS 
>running on a DEC Alpha and Solaris running on a Sun Ultra 10.

It seems it's the desktop of the caretakers of the operating system from 
the commany formerly known as Digital Equipment Corporate called OpenVMS
because anyone using Mac OSX or Linux or any other unix would have seen
how badly horked DECWindows is in the latest release; hence, my postings
here.

Perhaps if HP were to crawl out of the output orifice of Billzebub Gates 
alimentary canal, they would have seen that there were issues with their
X11 mods.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <Vvidnc3gge_OL7bRnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>{...snip...}
>The Windows that you so despise is my desktop.  The fact that 
>applications for Windows are readily available and more or less 
>affordable is why I run a Windows system as my primary system.

The applications you run.  Those I run do not run on WEENDOZE.

>For VMS or Unix systems it's mostly "roll your own" or do without.
>I might be able get "Hobbyist" licenses for some VMS based applications 
>but most applications I need are things that I would run on my PC  I 
>have the "basic three" Word Processor, Spreadsheet, and Database that I 
>can use without restriction.

That's not true.  There's a wealth of open software for Linux and there
is quite an eco-system supporting Mac OS X.  There are also equivalent
packaged for these OSs to compete with those on WEENDOZE and, in great
numbers, these equivalents are better than those on WEENDOZE.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <Vvidnc3gge_OL7bRnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> {...snip...}
>> The Windows that you so despise is my desktop.  The fact that 
>> applications for Windows are readily available and more or less 
>> affordable is why I run a Windows system as my primary system.
> 
> The applications you run.  Those I run do not run on WEENDOZE.
> 
>> For VMS or Unix systems it's mostly "roll your own" or do without.
>> I might be able get "Hobbyist" licenses for some VMS based applications 
>> but most applications I need are things that I would run on my PC  I 
>> have the "basic three" Word Processor, Spreadsheet, and Database that I 
>> can use without restriction.
> 
> That's not true.  There's a wealth of open software for Linux and there
> is quite an eco-system supporting Mac OS X.  There are also equivalent
> packaged for these OSs to compete with those on WEENDOZE and, in great
> numbers, these equivalents are better than those on WEENDOZE.
> 

Sorry!  Windows XP is and will remain my desktop.  It's rock solid.  It 
works and I know how to install, configure, and use it.

Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks. 
  TurboTax does my Federal and State income tax every year. 
FamilyTreeMaker keeps track of 20,000 or so people I'm related to. 
WordPerfect V12 handles my correspondence.  An ancient but still 
functioning copy of Lotus 1-2-3 satisfies my occasional need for a 
spreadsheet.

I have RHEL running on an old PC.  I bought a copy on CD which included 
a year of support.  I eventually got tired of applying ten to thirty 
patches every week.  I still have it and even boot it up and use it once 
or twice a year.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Perhaps if HP were to crawl out of the output orifice of Billzebub Gates 
> alimentary canal, they would have seen that there were issues with their
> X11 mods.


Especially since Unix desktops (Linux and OS-X) are far more likely to
be using X to run VMS applications with the display set to their
workstation.  Since Microsoft's stuff doesn't come with X windows
support out of the box, a far lower proportion of Windows desktops would
be accessing VMS apps via Xwindows.


Mr VAXman, have you tried a simple SET
DISPLAY/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCP/NODE=w.x.y.z instead of SSH ? Does that
also fails ?

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> That's not true.  There's a wealth of open software for Linux and there
> is quite an eco-system supporting Mac OS X.  There are also equivalent
> packaged for these OSs to compete with those on WEENDOZE and, in great
> numbers, these equivalents are better than those on WEENDOZE.

I moved from VMS to OS-X for desktop and am moving from VMS to OS-X for
Server.

The amount of open source stuff available on OS-X is far greater than
for Windows since OS-X is a Unix system and thus far more compatible
with open source software.

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> Sorry!  Windows XP is and will remain my desktop.  It's rock solid.  It 
> works and I know how to install, configure, and use it.

The day you need a piece of software that won't run on your ancient OS
version, you will be forced to upgrade. And you'll have to buy a new PC
because your current one won't be powerful enough to run the new version
of Windows.

In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>{...snip...}
>Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks. 

Runs on Mac


>  TurboTax does my Federal and State income tax every year. 

Runs on Mac (as well as the Business ed.)


>FamilyTreeMaker keeps track of 20,000 or so people I'm related to. 

Don't know this.  There's an old saying that you can pick your friends but
you can't pick your family.  I'd rather a FriendTreeMaker. ;)


>WordPerfect V12 handles my correspondence.  An ancient but still 

EDT


>functioning copy of Lotus 1-2-3 satisfies my occasional need for a 
>spreadsheet.

I've never found a reason to make a spreadsheet and never have made one.
But them I've never sent a text message either.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <4c2bc297$0$21164$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Perhaps if HP were to crawl out of the output orifice of Billzebub Gates 
>> alimentary canal, they would have seen that there were issues with their
>> X11 mods.
>
>
>Especially since Unix desktops (Linux and OS-X) are far more likely to
>be using X to run VMS applications with the display set to their
>workstation.  Since Microsoft's stuff doesn't come with X windows
>support out of the box, a far lower proportion of Windows desktops would
>be accessing VMS apps via Xwindows.
>
>
>Mr VAXman, have you tried a simple SET
>DISPLAY/CREATE/TRANSPORT=TCP/NODE=w.x.y.z instead of SSH ? Does that
>also fails ?

It's the XAUTH that's horked.  Doesn't matter that I tunnel X.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <4c2bc455$0$21164$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Sorry!  Windows XP is and will remain my desktop.  It's rock solid.  It 
>> works and I know how to install, configure, and use it.
>
>The day you need a piece of software that won't run on your ancient OS
>version, you will be forced to upgrade. And you'll have to buy a new PC
>because your current one won't be powerful enough to run the new version
>of Windows.

I think each generation of WEENDOZE runs tenfold more infinite loops 
in threads to force the purchase of newer hardware.  :D
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jun 30, 5:01=A0pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > And, again, what does that have to do with Windows?
>
> =A0 =A0And what does any of this have to do with the original
> question? =A0Perhaps the smartest thing the original poster did
> was not to mention that he was using Windows, any mention of
> which here seems to trigger a never-ending avalanche of
> pointless "Windows b-a-a-a-a-d" bleating, and comparably
> fervent counter-bleating.
>
> =A0 =A0What has noise like this contributed to the usefulness of
> this forum? =A0Or was a useful VMS forum never the goal?

Something to read. There really hasn't been much traffic lately. I
keep checking and until this thread there was almost nothing new each
time. Better this than nothing. May as well dissolve the group!

Consider it filler until things pick up in actual VMSland.

AEF

Alan Feldman wrote:

> Something to read. There really hasn't been much traffic lately. I
> keep checking and until this thread there was almost nothing new each
> time. Better this than nothing. May as well dissolve the group!

   "Something to read."?  There are many more valuable things
to read.  "Better this than nothing."?  Noise is noise.
"[...] there was almost nothing new"?  Noise against a quiet
background is still noise.  Noise which drives away what's
left of the audience damages the forum.  "May as well dissolve
the group!"  If it's 100% noise, then I'd say so,  It's
getting pretty close.

> Consider it filler until things pick up in actual VMSland.

   I prefer clean fill.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> {...snip...}
>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks. 
> 
> Runs on Mac
> 
> 
>>  TurboTax does my Federal and State income tax every year. 
> 
> Runs on Mac (as well as the Business ed.)
> 
> 
>> FamilyTreeMaker keeps track of 20,000 or so people I'm related to. 
> 
> Don't know this.  There's an old saying that you can pick your friends but
> you can't pick your family.  I'd rather a FriendTreeMaker. ;)
> 
> 
>> WordPerfect V12 handles my correspondence.  An ancient but still 
> 
> EDT
> 
> 
>> functioning copy of Lotus 1-2-3 satisfies my occasional need for a 
>> spreadsheet.
> 
> I've never found a reason to make a spreadsheet and never have made one.
> But them I've never sent a text message either.
> 

I used a spreadsheet to do my Federal Income Tax return many years ago, 
before Turbo-Tax.  Turbo-Tax is better.  If I had been a little smarter 
I could have put together a set of spreadsheets for Form 1040, Schedules 
A, B, C, D,  . . . , Z  and sold it to people who were as tired as I, of 
struggling with stacks of bills, of tax forms, . . . .

We get too soon old and too late smart!

Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Jun 30, 5:01 pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>>> And, again, what does that have to do with Windows?
>>    And what does any of this have to do with the original
>> question?  Perhaps the smartest thing the original poster did
>> was not to mention that he was using Windows, any mention of
>> which here seems to trigger a never-ending avalanche of
>> pointless "Windows b-a-a-a-a-d" bleating, and comparably
>> fervent counter-bleating.
>>
>>    What has noise like this contributed to the usefulness of
>> this forum?  Or was a useful VMS forum never the goal?
> 
> Something to read. There really hasn't been much traffic lately. I
> keep checking and until this thread there was almost nothing new each
> time. Better this than nothing. May as well dissolve the group!
> 
> Consider it filler until things pick up in actual VMSland.
> 

And just when will that be?

On Jun 30, 9:28=A0pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > Something to read. There really hasn't been much traffic lately. I
> > keep checking and until this thread there was almost nothing new each
> > time. Better this than nothing. May as well dissolve the group!
>
> =A0 =A0"Something to read."? =A0There are many more valuable things
> to read. =A0"Better this than nothing."? =A0Noise is noise.
> "[...] there was almost nothing new"? =A0Noise against a quiet
> background is still noise. =A0Noise which drives away what's
> left of the audience damages the forum. =A0"May as well dissolve
> the group!" =A0If it's 100% noise, then I'd say so, =A0It's
> getting pretty close.
>
> > Consider it filler until things pick up in actual VMSland.
>
> =A0 =A0I prefer clean fill.

"Clean"? Please explain.

AEF

Alan Feldman wrote:

> >    I prefer clean fill.
>
> "Clean"? Please explain.

   More used building materials.  Less rotting garbage.

Thanks for all the contributions from everybody - although this
thread has drifted slightly off-topic.

( I don't really mind that, quite enjoy some of it, especially from
some of the bright wordsmiths, like such an eloquent GOM as Vaxman,
with whom I tend to find myself in agreement most ot the time. I
find many of these rantings an amusing diversion).


But to drag it back onto topic..


The basic problem is:
----------
- I have to (for reasons described passim) use a vt320 terminal
emulator on a Micrsoft windows PC to work on a VMS system.

- Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
----------
I received a message from Frank Da Cruz, the Kermit wizard, who
helped clarify the problem. It seems the VT320 specification (which
I must admit, I have not read)  is ambiguous.  According to Frank..

>The VT manual is poorly worded; it's not clear if the the
>character (SUB) is displayed as a reverse question mark whenever it
>is received, or only if it is received while an escape sequence is
>in progress.  (The VT102 manual seems to imply the latter.)

This explains why some VT320 emulators available do not precisely
emulate a vt320 on this issue.

I have asked around colleagues everywhere I know to see what they
use, and how well they work on this issue. By trying the simple
problem demonstrator - the two lines
$ asc26[0,8] = 26
$ write sys$output "<",asc26,">"

and see which gave the correct answer ( though, if the vt320 spec is
ambiguous, neither could be regarded as incorrect, what I mean is
they behave like a real glass and metal VT320, and display the
character on the screen).

Here is the results I came up with

The emulators found that are 'correct' are:

Reflections
KeaTerm
(I couldn't find an X11 server on Windows, but a friend said that
 worked as well)


The other emulators tried that did not work are:

Putty
Teraterm
Hummingbird Exceed
Kermit-95

Although Frank said he is on the case with Kermit-95.  That would be
ideal, thanks to its superb scripting, and as it interworks so well
with C-Kermit on the VMS machines.

Meanwhile I need to choose between convincing our people to fork out
for a copy of Reflections, or just being very careful when
displaying anything on the screen.

Thanks for everybody's help - and keep on ranting if you wish.

Cheers, John

In article <3f71035c-508f-4181-be69-6acb7aaa4619@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
	Big John <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> writes:
> Thanks for all the contributions from everybody - although this
> thread has drifted slightly off-topic.
> 
> ( I don't really mind that, quite enjoy some of it, especially from
> some of the bright wordsmiths, like such an eloquent GOM as Vaxman,
> with whom I tend to find myself in agreement most ot the time. I
> find many of these rantings an amusing diversion).
> 
> 
> But to drag it back onto topic..
> 
> 
> The basic problem is:
> ----------
> - I have to (for reasons described passim) use a vt320 terminal
> emulator on a Micrsoft windows PC to work on a VMS system.
> 
> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.

Considering that ASCII-26 (at least in octal or decimal) is a non-printing
character I am not surprised it doesn't display correctly.  I thought the
backwards "?" (which is not in the 7-bit ASCII charset at all) is just the
way they signified a non-printable character.

> ----------
> I received a message from Frank Da Cruz, the Kermit wizard, who
> helped clarify the problem. It seems the VT320 specification (which
> I must admit, I have not read)  is ambiguous.  According to Frank..
> 
>>The VT manual is poorly worded; it's not clear if the the
>>character (SUB) is displayed as a reverse question mark whenever it
>>is received, or only if it is received while an escape sequence is
>>in progress.  (The VT102 manual seems to imply the latter.)
> 
> This explains why some VT320 emulators available do not precisely
> emulate a vt320 on this issue.
> 
> I have asked around colleagues everywhere I know to see what they
> use, and how well they work on this issue. By trying the simple
> problem demonstrator - the two lines
> $ asc26[0,8] = 26
> $ write sys$output "<",asc26,">"
> 
> and see which gave the correct answer ( though, if the vt320 spec is
> ambiguous, neither could be regarded as incorrect, what I mean is
> they behave like a real glass and metal VT320, and display the
> character on the screen).
> 
> Here is the results I came up with
> 
> The emulators found that are 'correct' are:
> 
> Reflections
> KeaTerm
> (I couldn't find an X11 server on Windows, but a friend said that
>  worked as well)
> 
> 
> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
> 
> Putty
> Teraterm
> Hummingbird Exceed
> Kermit-95
> 
> Although Frank said he is on the case with Kermit-95.  That would be
> ideal, thanks to its superb scripting, and as it interworks so well
> with C-Kermit on the VMS machines.
> 
> Meanwhile I need to choose between convincing our people to fork out
> for a copy of Reflections, or just being very careful when
> displaying anything on the screen.
> 
> Thanks for everybody's help - and keep on ranting if you wish.
> 
> Cheers, John

Interesting explanation, but it doesn't really change the fact that
a backwards "?" is not an ASCII-26 and being as it is an unprintable
character used for some kind of device control, actually expecting
any character to be displayed for it is kind of silly.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:


> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.

I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...

What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
using a non-printable character ?

It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
emulators.

Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...

In article <3f71035c-508f-4181-be69-6acb7aaa4619@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, Big John <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> writes:
>Thanks for all the contributions from everybody - although this
>thread has drifted slightly off-topic.
>
>( I don't really mind that, quite enjoy some of it, especially from
>some of the bright wordsmiths, like such an eloquent GOM as Vaxman,
>with whom I tend to find myself in agreement most ot the time. I
>find many of these rantings an amusing diversion).
>
>
>But to drag it back onto topic..
>
>
>The basic problem is:
>----------
>- I have to (for reasons described passim) use a vt320 terminal
>emulator on a Micrsoft windows PC to work on a VMS system.
>
>- Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
>correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
>uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
>----------
>I received a message from Frank Da Cruz, the Kermit wizard, who
>helped clarify the problem. It seems the VT320 specification (which
>I must admit, I have not read)  is ambiguous.  According to Frank..
>
>>The VT manual is poorly worded; it's not clear if the the
>>character (SUB) is displayed as a reverse question mark whenever it
>>is received, or only if it is received while an escape sequence is
>>in progress.  (The VT102 manual seems to imply the latter.)
>
>This explains why some VT320 emulators available do not precisely
>emulate a vt320 on this issue.
>
>I have asked around colleagues everywhere I know to see what they
>use, and how well they work on this issue. By trying the simple
>problem demonstrator - the two lines
>$ asc26[0,8] = 26
>$ write sys$output "<",asc26,">"

John,

I have been maintaining a product which must track VT terminals' escapes
and controls, and repaint the screen.  While I've also "interpreted" these
VT specs, there's nothing like testing of scenarios with the real thing to
show the actual behavior.  As you can see, the little 2 line demonstrator 
that I posted does not use any escape sequences and, when used with a real
terminal or DECterm, displays the backward '?'.


>and see which gave the correct answer ( though, if the vt320 spec is
>ambiguous, neither could be regarded as incorrect, what I mean is
>they behave like a real glass and metal VT320, and display the
>character on the screen).
>
>Here is the results I came up with
>
>The emulators found that are 'correct' are:
>
>Reflections
>KeaTerm
>(I couldn't find an X11 server on Windows, but a friend said that
> worked as well)

Get the VTTEST off of the Freeware CDs. 

http://DECUSlib.com/Freeware/Freewarev40/VTTEST/

Give this a go if you want to see what truly emulates a VT.  I also put my
own tests together for the VT400/VT500 'rectangular' escapes and the other
nifty editing feature escapes of these terminals.  I've still not found an
emulator that goes 100% with these tests.  The tracking code does and will
repaint the screen correctly.  So, when I am stuck, I use this code and a 
refresh sequence (which repaints the screen and uses a rudimentary set of
VT escapes).


>The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
>Putty
>Teraterm
>Hummingbird Exceed

Isn't this also an X11 server?  If so, log in, export your display, and
then $ CREATE/TERMINAL


>Kermit-95
>
>Although Frank said he is on the case with Kermit-95.  That would be
>ideal, thanks to its superb scripting, and as it interworks so well
>with C-Kermit on the VMS machines.
>
>Meanwhile I need to choose between convincing our people to fork out
>for a copy of Reflections, or just being very careful when
>displaying anything on the screen.

Be careful there.  I'd been after the Reflections folks to fix up one of 
their flaws since the '90s.  About 5 years ago at a pharmaceutical, I was
bashed over the head because they were using Reflections and some of the
software I was setting up there exposed the Reflections flaw.


>Thanks for everybody's help - and keep on ranting if you wish.

The only ranters were those that had to fault my initial post about your
using unix.
-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <4c2bac39$0$24433$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
	JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
>> something like that.
> 
> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
> 
> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.

And before someone chimes in again about the fact that early hardware
was inadequate to run VMS, let me throw in that the requirement for a
desktop and a server are not the same.  I still believe, if they had
actually cared, DEC could have had a version of VMS that could have
run on desktop and even laptop PC's running on commodity hardware with
all the needed desktop apps even before Windows came into existence.
Just think how well something like that could have been integrated into
a whole enterprise VMS environment.  Sigh.......

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jul 1, 12:36=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
>  [Lots of stuff deleted..]
>
> Interesting explanation, but it doesn't really change the fact that
> a backwards "?" is not an ASCII-26 and being as it is an unprintable
> character used for some kind of device control, actually expecting
> any character to be displayed for it is kind of silly.
>

Silly or not, is does not matter. That is the whole idea of being an
'emulator'

It's daft metaphor time..

If I were a professional stand-up and wanted to impersonate George W
Bush, then wanted to say 'nuclear' then I would say it as
Noo-cyou-lah  - because that is what he says!

You could say that is 'kind of silly', the correct pronuncation is
Nyou-cle-ah   - and that is how I should say it.

Yes, but then I am not emulating Dubya anymore. I am something else
now, a good clear orator, but not an emulator.

(Sorry my example is based in the past, but I have not yet heard how
Obama pronounces the word.)

[/Daft metaphor time]

In summary a vt320 emulator should display a backward question mark
here because (and only because) a vt320 displays a backward question
mark here.

Cheers, John

In article <QsednVSoIPDOKLbRnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@giganews.com>,
	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> 
>>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
>>> something like that.
>> 
>> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
>> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
>> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
>> 
>> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
>> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
>> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
>> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
>> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
> 
> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology?  I 
> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with 
> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and 
> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.

Irrelevant beyond the fact that it once again shows how DEC missed the
boat.  Guess they slept thru the economics class on economies of scale.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <00A9FBE5.4AE61805@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <891aafFprbU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <00A9FBD0.4320019D@sendspamhere.org>,
>>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>> In article <8915b0Fvs3U1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>>(who doesn't particularly like Windows, but knows what pays the
>>>>mortgage in the real world!)
>>> 
>>> WEENDOZE, Micro$haft, or Billzebub Gates have never contributed a single 
>>> cent to my mortgage.  Please supply me with the URL where I can register
>>> for this valuable real world service.
>>
>>That is strictly your choice.  It is what the IT world wants today.
>>If you are willing to pass up the opportunities then so be it. Bill
>>gates is not going to chase you to offer you a job and I am certain
>>he isn't loosing any sleep over the people who choose to remain in
>>the IT dark ages.  You know, long before there was VMS I worked with
>>Primos and Exec-8.  And long before that I worked with DOS/E and even
>>the 1401 (which didn't have an OS as far as I knew).  But I certainly
> 
> You really believe that only WEENDOZE exists for people to earn a living?

Never said that.  Personally, I prefer Unix.

> So, in your parochial IT world, M$-ers eat while everybody else starves?
> That'd be a lot of starving people in the world.

No, but people who insist on publicly telling potential hiring managers
they are idiots for running Windows in their enterprise is hardly likely
to increase one's chances of actually getting hiried.

> 
> Stop polishing your rocket in that ivory tower and have a look outside.
> There's much more to the IT world than M$ Outhouse, X-hell and W(ie)RD.

There certainly is.  But it doesn't change the fact that according to
Wikipeadia (the paragon of accuracy!) this morning as of 2009 MS had 97%
of the market.  You may like and want to work with VMS, but even if you
find a VMS shop today, it is very likely that they will expect you to
have MS skills as well.  Openly "bragging" that you don't and won't is
not conducive to finding gainful employment.

> 
> 
>>don't see any likelihood of making a living off of any of them.  Even
>>keeping my skillset current I still have problems when people look at
>>where I work and equate that to being out of touch with current tech-
>>nology because of the location.  When people publicly demonstrate their
>>total disdain for that current technology, well, I guess you can always
>>learn to say "Do you want fries with that?"  Or do people here think
>>no one ever sees any of this?  Amazing what a potential employer can
>>find out about the applicants for their jobs using something as simple
>>as Google.  ( http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/29796962/ )
> 
> I don't "twit" with twits.

Neither do I, but this is just as public as Twitter.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jun 30, 9:56=A0pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > > =A0 =A0I prefer clean fill.
>
> > "Clean"? Please explain.
>
> =A0 =A0More used building materials. =A0Less rotting garbage.

Steve,

Thanks for not clearing that up.

Regardless, be happy it's at least computer-related! It could have
been quantum mechanics, Star Trek, politics, and what not.

And there _is_ VMS sprinkled in here and there, so it's really not
that bad.

AEF

In article <i0hv54$kpu$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:
>
>
>> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
>> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
>> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
>
>I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...
>
>What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
>How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
>using a non-printable character ?
>
>It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
>problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
>emulators.
>
>Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
>would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
>I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...

The backward ? is just a placeholder for a non-printable character.  Without
it, it looks like a space.  For example, suppose what you were editing had a
set of escape sequences to erase the screen and home the cursor:

<esc>[2J<esc>[H

On TPU on a terminal with the backward ? support, you'd see:

?[2J?[H   (assume the ? is the backward ?)

Without support, you'd see:

 [2J [H

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <893fsqFge0U4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>{....snip...}
>No, but people who insist on publicly telling potential hiring managers
>they are idiots for running Windows in their enterprise is hardly likely
>to increase one's chances of actually getting hiried.

I am not looking to get hired into a M$ based shop, so what does it matter
my opinion of M$, WEENDOZE and its shoddy products?  You tell them they're
idiots for running VMS.  Upon reflection...


>> Stop polishing your rocket in that ivory tower and have a look outside.
>> There's much more to the IT world than M$ Outhouse, X-hell and W(ie)RD.
>
>There certainly is.  But it doesn't change the fact that according to
>Wikipeadia (the paragon of accuracy!) this morning as of 2009 MS had 97%
>of the market.  You may like and want to work with VMS, but even if you
>find a VMS shop today, it is very likely that they will expect you to
>have MS skills as well.  Openly "bragging" that you don't and won't is
>not conducive to finding gainful employment.

There's no M$ in my shop.  VMS with plenty of linux and Mac OSX though.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <QsednVSoIPDOKLbRnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@giganews.com>,
> 	"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or 
>>>> something like that.
>>> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
>>> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
>>> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
>>>
>>> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
>>> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
>>> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
>>> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
>>> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
>> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology?  I 
>> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with 
>> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and 
>> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.
> 
> Irrelevant beyond the fact that it once again shows how DEC missed the
> boat.  Guess they slept thru the economics class on economies of scale.
> 

"Missing the boat" is a very mild way to describe it!  Somehow, the 
Longfellow poem "Excelsior" comes to mind.  Also the question "What the 
hell were they smoking?"

On Jul 1, 8:18=A0am, Big John <john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 12:36=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
>
>
> > =A0[Lots of stuff deleted..]
>
> > Interesting explanation, but it doesn't really change the fact that
> > a backwards "?" is not an ASCII-26 and being as it is an unprintable
> > character used for some kind of device control, actually expecting
> > any character to be displayed for it is kind of silly.
>
> Silly or not, is does not matter. That is the whole idea of being an
> 'emulator'
>
> It's daft metaphor time..
>
> If I were a professional stand-up and wanted to impersonate George W
> Bush, then wanted to say 'nuclear' then I would say it as
> Noo-cyou-lah =A0- because that is what he says!
>
> You could say that is 'kind of silly', the correct pronuncation is
> Nyou-cle-ah =A0 - and that is how I should say it.
>
> Yes, but then I am not emulating Dubya anymore. I am something else
> now, a good clear orator, but not an emulator.
>
> (Sorry my example is based in the past, but I have not yet heard how
> Obama pronounces the word.)
>
> [/Daft metaphor time]
>
> In summary a vt320 emulator should display a backward question mark
> here because (and only because) a vt320 displays a backward question
> mark here.
>
> Cheers, John

I have a vague recollection of Obama saying it noo-clee-er.

BTW, your version, Nyou-cle-ah, isn't right either. Unfortunately,
Webster's claim that W's version is a legitimate alternate because so
many say it that way. All I can say is, bummer.

AEF

On Jul 1, 5:47=A0am, Big John <john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the contributions from everybody - although this
> thread has drifted slightly off-topic.
>
> ( I don't really mind that, quite enjoy some of it, especially from
> some of the bright wordsmiths, like such an eloquent GOM as Vaxman,
> with whom I tend to find myself in agreement most ot the time. I
> find many of these rantings an amusing diversion).
>
> But to drag it back onto topic..
>
> The basic problem is:
> ----------
> - I have to (for reasons described passim) use a vt320 terminal
> emulator on a Micrsoft windows PC to work on a VMS system.
>
> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
> correctly - in fact not at all. =A0This makes working in TPU which
> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
> ----------
> I received a message from Frank Da Cruz, the Kermit wizard, who
> helped clarify the problem. It seems the VT320 specification (which
> I must admit, I have not read) =A0is ambiguous. =A0According to Frank..
>
> >The VT manual is poorly worded; it's not clear if the the
> >character (SUB) is displayed as a reverse question mark whenever it
> >is received, or only if it is received while an escape sequence is
> >in progress. =A0(The VT102 manual seems to imply the latter.)
>
> This explains why some VT320 emulators available do not precisely
> emulate a vt320 on this issue.
>
> I have asked around colleagues everywhere I know to see what they
> use, and how well they work on this issue. By trying the simple
> problem demonstrator - the two lines
> $ asc26[0,8] =3D 26
> $ write sys$output "<",asc26,">"
>
> and see which gave the correct answer ( though, if the vt320 spec is
> ambiguous, neither could be regarded as incorrect, what I mean is
> they behave like a real glass and metal VT320, and display the
> character on the screen).
>
> Here is the results I came up with
>
> The emulators found that are 'correct' are:
>
> Reflections
> KeaTerm
> (I couldn't find an X11 server on Windows, but a friend said that
> =A0worked as well)
>
> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> Putty

PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.

And it works on SmarTerm, too.

> Teraterm
> Hummingbird Exceed
> Kermit-95
>
> Although Frank said he is on the case with Kermit-95. =A0That would be
> ideal, thanks to its superb scripting, and as it interworks so well
> with C-Kermit on the VMS machines.
>
> Meanwhile I need to choose between convincing our people to fork out
> for a copy of Reflections, or just being very careful when
> displaying anything on the screen.
>
> Thanks for everybody's help - and keep on ranting if you wish.
>
> Cheers, John

Just curious: Where are all these ^Z's coming from?

AEF

In article <00A9FC82.F4AB3A3B@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <i0hv54$kpu$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:
>>
>>
>>> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
>>> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
>>> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
>>
>>I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...
>>
>>What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
>>How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
>>using a non-printable character ?
>>
>>It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
>>problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
>>emulators.
>>
>>Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
>>would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
>>I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...
> 
> The backward ? is just a placeholder for a non-printable character.  Without
> it, it looks like a space.  For example, suppose what you were editing had a
> set of escape sequences to erase the screen and home the cursor:
> 
> <esc>[2J<esc>[H
> 
> On TPU on a terminal with the backward ? support, you'd see:
> 
> ?[2J?[H   (assume the ? is the backward ?)
> 
> Without support, you'd see:
> 
>  [2J [H

Neither of which actually displays what is there and so both are wrong.

If anything, the application should take care of presenting the non-
pritnable character but it would be best if it did so in a way that
accurately represented what the character was.  A pretty standard (at
least de facto) way is to use the printable character it equates to
preceded by a ^.  

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <00A9FC83.E0906CF4@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <893fsqFge0U4@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>{....snip...}
>>No, but people who insist on publicly telling potential hiring managers
>>they are idiots for running Windows in their enterprise is hardly likely
>>to increase one's chances of actually getting hiried.
> 
> I am not looking to get hired into a M$ based shop, so what does it matter
> my opinion of M$, WEENDOZE and its shoddy products?  

Must be nice to be able to eschew 97% of the job market.  Sadly, I (and
I am sure many others here) do not have that luxury.

>                                                      You tell them they're
> idiots for running VMS.  Upon reflection...

I have never told anyone they are idiots for running VMS.  I fought to
keep VMS here long past everyone else's desire to see it gone.  Probably
to the detriment of my career.  But I also learned (in the real world,
long before I entered what you consider an ivory tower) that the customer
is always right and you sell what he wants and not what you think is the
better solution.

> 
> 
>>> Stop polishing your rocket in that ivory tower and have a look outside.
>>> There's much more to the IT world than M$ Outhouse, X-hell and W(ie)RD.
>>
>>There certainly is.  But it doesn't change the fact that according to
>>Wikipeadia (the paragon of accuracy!) this morning as of 2009 MS had 97%
>>of the market.  You may like and want to work with VMS, but even if you
>>find a VMS shop today, it is very likely that they will expect you to
>>have MS skills as well.  Openly "bragging" that you don't and won't is
>>not conducive to finding gainful employment.
> 
> There's no M$ in my shop.  VMS with plenty of linux and Mac OSX though.
 
OK.  I just hope you can continue to earn a decent living on 3% of the
IT world.

bill 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <893l6jFge0U5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A9FC82.F4AB3A3B@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <i0hv54$kpu$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>>>On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
>>>> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
>>>> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...
>>>
>>>What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
>>>How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
>>>using a non-printable character ?
>>>
>>>It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
>>>problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
>>>emulators.
>>>
>>>Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
>>>would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
>>>I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...
>> 
>> The backward ? is just a placeholder for a non-printable character.  Without
>> it, it looks like a space.  For example, suppose what you were editing had a
>> set of escape sequences to erase the screen and home the cursor:
>> 
>> <esc>[2J<esc>[H
>> 
>> On TPU on a terminal with the backward ? support, you'd see:
>> 
>> ?[2J?[H   (assume the ? is the backward ?)
>> 
>> Without support, you'd see:
>> 
>>  [2J [H
>
>Neither of which actually displays what is there and so both are wrong.
>
>If anything, the application should take care of presenting the non-
>pritnable character but it would be best if it did so in a way that
>accurately represented what the character was.  A pretty standard (at
>least de facto) way is to use the printable character it equates to
>preceded by a ^.  

I use EDT which displays <esc>, ^Z, ^G, etc.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <893lj6Fge0U6@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>{...snip...} 
>OK.  I just hope you can continue to earn a decent living on 3% of the
>IT world.

If the desktop is the IT world, I guess I am doomed.

Apple has bested M$'s market cap.

Linux, from one survey I saw, is the top web server platform.

Google is eschewing M$ in a recent report and many other companies
are following suit.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
mark when given ascii 26.

On Jul 1, 10:28=A0am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> mark when given ascii 26.

Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.

AEF

In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be0bc@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jul 1, 10:28�am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
>> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
>> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
>> mark when given ascii 26.
> Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.

That's vi, not putty.  

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <00A9FC90.74FE2BCE@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <893lj6Fge0U6@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>{...snip...} 
>>OK.  I just hope you can continue to earn a decent living on 3% of the
>>IT world.
> 
> If the desktop is the IT world, I guess I am doomed.

MS isn't just desktops.

> 
> Apple has bested M$'s market cap.

I have never seen a job where the primary required skill was Apple.
Come to think of it, I can not remember the last time I saw a job
posting anywhere that had Apple or OS-X anywhere but in the buzz-
word list.  And I am looking at job listing pretty much every day.  

> 
> Linux, from one survey I saw, is the top web server platform.

Survey of who?  Linux weenies?  The largest enterprises in the
world seem to be strangely absent from the Linux world.

> 
> Google is eschewing M$ in a recent report and many other companies
> are following suit.

We'll see.  I doubt they will supplant MS at the really large
organizations (like the US Government and major corporations)
who make up the majority of MS's users.

If I had any, I wouldn't be running to sell my MS stock just yet. :-)
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :

Linux   - 24 jobs
OS-X    - 1 job
Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
Unix    - 29 jobs
Windows - 107 jobs
AIX     - 1 job
HP-UX   - 0 jobs
Solaris - 8 jobs
VMS     - 3 jobs 
    1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
    1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
                                       on Windows Server.
    1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
                              all know what that means.

So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jul 1, 6:20=A0am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
> > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> > Putty
>
> PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.

PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
for me.  I would definitely be unhappy with that...

> And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>
> > Teraterm
> > Hummingbird Exceed
> > Kermit-95

It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
and only about 5 years since I used eXceed.  At
least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
rectangle (like a block cursor).  It was definitely
usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.

Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
on my desktop, and I can do the same with
Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
the DECwindows font files to the Windows
X-server.

    -Ken

On Jul 1, 9:28=A0am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> mark when given ascii 26.

eXcursion v7 terminal does the same as PowerTerm 525.

On Jul 1, 11:14=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups=
..com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> >> mark when given ascii 26.
> > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>
> That's vi, not putty. =A0
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?

AEF

On Jul 1, 12:36=A0pm, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 11:14=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegrou=
ps.com>,
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> > >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> > >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> > >> mark when given ascii 26.
> > > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>
> > That's vi, not putty. =A0
>
> > bill
>
> > --
> > Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n=
.. =A0Three wolves
> > billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> > University of Scranton =A0 |
> > Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h=
> =A0
>
> You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?
>
> AEF

SmarTerm evidence:

DCL> @A
$ asc26[0,8] =3D 26
$ write sys$output "<",asc26,">"
<=1A>
DCL>

Well, that should be a backwards questions mark between the brackets.
I'm curious how that will show up.

AEF

In article <893rq3Fvf8U3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
>results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
>
>Linux   - 24 jobs
>OS-X    - 1 job
>Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
>Unix    - 29 jobs
>Windows - 107 jobs
>AIX     - 1 job
>HP-UX   - 0 jobs
>Solaris - 8 jobs
>VMS     - 3 jobs 
>    1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
>    1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
>                                       on Windows Server.
>    1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
>                              all know what that means.
>
>So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
>I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
>similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.

That's a pretty sad search engine.  However, I put in a popular Mac OSX
application and got 1005 hits.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <48e1245c-5be3-4136-bde0-a8795bfaecf0@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
	AEF <spamsink2001@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jul 1, 11:14�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
>> >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
>> >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
>> >> mark when given ascii 26.
>> > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>>
>> That's vi, not putty. �
> You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?

Most likely, TPU just passes them and leaves it up to the terminal to
decide how to handle them.  The question really is, "What should a
terminal do when given an unprintable character?"  In my opinion, it
should either perform the action connected to the character, if it is in
fact doable (^M, ^J, ^L, ^G, ^I, ^H, etc.) or it should merely ignore
them if no action is appropriate.  The problem is when a terminal does
something inappropriate (like printing a non-ASCII character) and
people get so used to it that they think this is the correct behavior.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <00A9FCAC.D910E38D@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <893rq3Fvf8U3@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
>>results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
>>
>>Linux   - 24 jobs
>>OS-X    - 1 job
>>Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
>>Unix    - 29 jobs
>>Windows - 107 jobs
>>AIX     - 1 job
>>HP-UX   - 0 jobs
>>Solaris - 8 jobs
>>VMS     - 3 jobs 
>>    1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
>>    1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
>>                                       on Windows Server.
>>    1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
>>                              all know what that means.
>>
>>So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
>>I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
>>similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.
> 
> That's a pretty sad search engine.  

Why?  Because it didn't return what you wanted it to?

>                                    However, I put in a popular Mac OSX
> application and got 1005 hits.
 
What application and where did you search?

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

AEF wrote:

> I have a vague recollection of Obama saying it noo-clee-er.

There is no need to use phoentics.

And it is quite simple really:

Nuclear: generic term for technologies of the atom

Nukular�: Registered trade mark for proprietary US nuclear technology
used in US nuclear power plants and militry naval vessels.

The whole kafuffle with Iran is because the USA is mad that Iran bought
the technology from the Russians instead of buying its own proprietary
Nukular� technology.

You'll note that in the case of India, GW Bush agreed to not complain
about India's non compliance with the NPT in exchange for India buying
US Nukular� technology.

Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
> And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
> results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
> 
> Linux   - 24 jobs
> OS-X    - 1 job
> Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
> Unix    - 29 jobs
> Windows - 107 jobs
> AIX     - 1 job
> HP-UX   - 0 jobs
> Solaris - 8 jobs
> VMS     - 3 jobs 
>     1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
>     1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
>                                        on Windows Server.
>     1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
>                               all know what that means.
> 
> So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
> I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
> similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.
> 

So if "number of job offers" is the metric,
Windows is far away from 97%.

In article <i0j5ki$8hb$00$1@news.t-online.com>,
	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
>> And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
>> results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
>> 
>> Linux   - 24 jobs
>> OS-X    - 1 job
>> Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
>> Unix    - 29 jobs
>> Windows - 107 jobs
>> AIX     - 1 job
>> HP-UX   - 0 jobs
>> Solaris - 8 jobs
>> VMS     - 3 jobs 
>>     1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
>>     1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
>>                                        on Windows Server.
>>     1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
>>                               all know what that means.
>> 
>> So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
>> I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
>> similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.
>> 
> 
> So if "number of job offers" is the metric,
> Windows is far away from 97%.
 
I did a quick search on a single keyword on one site.  Hardly exhaustive.
I am certain there are places where all you would find were Windows jobs
because that's the corporate standard.

In any event windows beat out every other catagory by at least 3 to 1.
The race is not always to the swift but that is where the best bet is.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> In any event windows beat out every other catagory by at least 3 to 1.
> The race is not always to the swift but that is where the best bet is.

There is no denying that Microsoft has a near monopoly. However, it is
important to look at trends. It didn't take that many years for Firefox
to dethrone Microsoft's virus-laden browser.  Linus and OS-X are eroding
Windows's high market share. At first, the erosion is slow, but
eventualy, it will get to some topping point where it will happen
quickly at which point, Windows will lose a lot or market share in a
matter of years. Most of it will go to Linux because it is available on
multiple hardware vendors.

On Jul 1, 11:53=A0am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 1, 6:20=A0am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> > > Putty
>
> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>
> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> for me. =A0I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>
> > > Teraterm
> > > Hummingbird Exceed
> > > Kermit-95
>
> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. =A0At
> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> rectangle (like a block cursor). =A0It was definitely
> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> X-server.
>
> =A0 =A0 -Ken

I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
it correctly. Sorry for the goof.

AEF

In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85a2a@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 1, 11:53�am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 1, 6:20�am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>
>> > > Putty
>>
>> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>
>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>
>> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>
>> > > Teraterm
>> > > Hummingbird Exceed
>> > > Kermit-95
>>
>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>
>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>> X-server.
>>
>> � � -Ken
> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.

Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
but it definitely is not correct.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <894rstFbktU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <i0j5ki$8hb$00$1@news.t-online.com>,
>	Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
>> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
>>> And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are the
>>> results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
>>> 
>>> Linux   - 24 jobs
>>> OS-X    - 1 job
>>> Apple   - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled "apply". :-)
>>> Unix    - 29 jobs
>>> Windows - 107 jobs
>>> AIX     - 1 job
>>> HP-UX   - 0 jobs
>>> Solaris - 8 jobs
>>> VMS     - 3 jobs 
>>>     1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
>>>     1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package running
>>>                                        on Windows Server.
>>>     1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I think we
>>>                               all know what that means.
>>> 
>>> So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most promising?
>>> I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results would be
>>> similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.
>>> 
>> 
>> So if "number of job offers" is the metric,
>> Windows is far away from 97%.
> 
>I did a quick search on a single keyword on one site.  Hardly exhaustive.
>I am certain there are places where all you would find were Windows jobs
>because that's the corporate standard.

If the corporation is a bunch of pencil pushing money handling stuffed
shirts, it may be the standard.  

I know one advertising firm a friend works for and there are over 1000
Macs in just one of their buildings.  

Creative artistic types use Mac
Xhell spreadsheet dolts use WEENDOZE

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <89652nFrbvU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85a2a@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Jul 1, 11:53�am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 1, 6:20�am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>>
>>> > > Putty
>>>
>>> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>>
>>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>>> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>>
>>> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>>
>>> > > Teraterm
>>> > > Hummingbird Exceed
>>> > > Kermit-95
>>>
>>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>>> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>>
>>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>>> X-server.
>>>
>>> � � -Ken
>> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
>Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
>is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
>It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
>but it definitely is not correct.

It's a PLACEHOLDER...  Showing ^Z isn't correct either.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <00A9FD4D.CAC346F5@sendspamhere.org>,
	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <89652nFrbvU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85a2a@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>> On Jul 1, 11:53�am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jul 1, 6:20�am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>>>
>>>> > > Putty
>>>>
>>>> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>>>
>>>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>>>> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>>>
>>>> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>>>
>>>> > > Teraterm
>>>> > > Hummingbird Exceed
>>>> > > Kermit-95
>>>>
>>>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>>>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>>>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>>>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>>>> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>>>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>>>
>>>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>>>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>>>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>>>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>>>> X-server.
>>>>
>>>> � � -Ken
>>> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>>> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>>> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>>
>>Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
>>is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
>>It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
>>but it definitely is not correct.
> 
> It's a PLACEHOLDER...  Showing ^Z isn't correct either.

That is correct.  But showing an accurate representation of what
is actually there seems to me to make a lot more sense than showing
a character that is non-existant in the represented charset.  How
does someone not already familiar with this behavior interpret it?  

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jul 2, 8:40=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 11:53=A0am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 1, 6:20=A0am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
>
> >> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> >> > > Putty
>
> >> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>
> >> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> >> for me. =A0I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> >> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>
> >> > > Teraterm
> >> > > Hummingbird Exceed
> >> > > Kermit-95
>
> >> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> >> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. =A0At
> >> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> >> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> >> rectangle (like a block cursor). =A0It was definitely
> >> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> >> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> >> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> >> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> >> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> >> X-server.
>
> >> =A0 =A0 -Ken
> > I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> > But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
> > it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
> Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
> is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
> It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> but it definitely is not correct.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

I thought that is what the OP wanted. So just what exactly _is_ the
question?

AEF

In article <896a24FrbvU2@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>In article <00A9FD4D.CAC346F5@sendspamhere.org>,
>	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> In article <89652nFrbvU1@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
>>>In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85a2a@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>>>	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Jul 1, 11:53�am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jul 1, 6:20�am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>>>>
>>>>> > > Putty
>>>>>
>>>>> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>>>>
>>>>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>>>>> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>>>>
>>>>> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> > > Teraterm
>>>>> > > Hummingbird Exceed
>>>>> > > Kermit-95
>>>>>
>>>>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>>>>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>>>>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>>>>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>>>>> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>>>>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>>>>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>>>>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>>>>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>>>>> X-server.
>>>>>
>>>>> � � -Ken
>>>> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>>>> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>>>> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>>>
>>>Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
>>>is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
>>>It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
>>>but it definitely is not correct.
>> 
>> It's a PLACEHOLDER...  Showing ^Z isn't correct either.
>
>That is correct.  But showing an accurate representation of what
>is actually there seems to me to make a lot more sense than showing
>a character that is non-existant in the represented charset.  How
>does someone not already familiar with this behavior interpret it?  

Well, if I'm in a TEXT editor, non-printable characters should be
just that.  These other representations are a contrivance.  TECO,
for example, displays a '$' for 'escape'.  That's not exactly what 
is there either.

Anyway, if the expected behavior in TPU was to see the backward ?,
then the emulator should, to be faithful to its claims, display it.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

> The problem is that it is not displaying an ascii-26 character. A
> normal
> VT320 displays a backward question mark. When I tried using

It is very hard to read through all the garbage that has hijacked this
thread to see if this answer was already given so apologies if it has. What
I would do is;
  - Get a copy of Fontforge http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/
  - Get your favourite font file
  - Add something in character 26 (but make sure the width is exactly the
same as the other characters otherwise it will not be a fixed-pitch font)
  - Install your modified font
  - Open PuTTY
  - Select your new font file
  - Select "Font has XWindows encoding" under Window/Translation in PuTTY
  - See if it works

"Font has XWindows encoding" is supposed to allow you to use characters
under position 32. I have no idea if Kermit-95 has the same feature.

Disclaimer: I did not try this myself, but it should work.


Peter Weaver
http://www.weaverconsulting.ca
Winner of the OpenVMS.org Readers' Choice Award for System
Management/Performance
http://www.linkedin.com/in/peterweaver
  

On Jul 2, 10:47 am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <896a24Frb...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> >In article <00A9FD4D.CAC34...@sendspamhere.org>,
> >    VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> >> In article <89652nFrb...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) writes:
> >>>In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> >>>    Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>>> On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>>> [...]
>
> >>>>> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> >>>>> > > Putty
>
> >>>>> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>
> >>>>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> >>>>> for me.  I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> >>>>> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>
> >>>>> > > Teraterm
> >>>>> > > Hummingbird Exceed
> >>>>> > > Kermit-95
>
> >>>>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> >>>>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed.  At
> >>>>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> >>>>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> >>>>> rectangle (like a block cursor).  It was definitely
> >>>>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> >>>>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> >>>>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> >>>>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> >>>>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> >>>>> X-server.
>
> >>>>>     -Ken
> >>>> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> >>>> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
> >>>> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
> >>>Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
> >>>is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
> >>>It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> >>>but it definitely is not correct.
>
> >> It's a PLACEHOLDER...  Showing ^Z isn't correct either.
>
> >That is correct.  But showing an accurate representation of what
> >is actually there seems to me to make a lot more sense than showing
> >a character that is non-existant in the represented charset.  How
> >does someone not already familiar with this behavior interpret it?
>
> Well, if I'm in a TEXT editor, non-printable characters should be
> just that.  These other representations are a contrivance.  TECO,
> for example, displays a '$' for 'escape'.  That's not exactly what
> is there either.
>
> Anyway, if the expected behavior in TPU was to see the backward ?,
> then the emulator should, to be faithful to its claims, display it.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
> All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Alright, so if TPU *does* get a bonafide ^Z, it will show the
backwards question mark. And if TPU is not showing the backwards
question mark, it is not getting a bonafide ^Z. So the emulator is not
passing it. Isn't that the case? And if vi is showing ^Z as a single
character when run via putty, isn't that doing what the OP wants, and
is not getting?

TPU will shows the backward question mark for other non-printable
characters, so it must not be getting a bonafide ^Z. Right?

I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these editable
files in the first place. Big John, can you answer? thanks.

AEF

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85a2a@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> 	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>>>> Putty
>>>> PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>>> for me.  I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>>
>>>> And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>>>> Teraterm
>>>>> Hummingbird Exceed
>>>>> Kermit-95
>>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed.  At
>>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>>> rectangle (like a block cursor).  It was definitely
>>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>>
>>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>>> X-server.
>>>
>>>     -Ken
>> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
> 
> Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
> is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
> It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> but it definitely is not correct.
> 
> bill
> 

I don't know where to look this up quickly in the documentation that I 
have but I thought that [0-31] decimal were all non-printable control 
characters.  Some terminals can represent characters in this range with 
a glyph representing the function of the character; e.g. "c-sub-r" for 
carriage return.  It's optional and doesn't happen unless you enable it it.

In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
 "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:

> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.

Writing checks?

How quaint.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2010-07-03 14:41, Paul Sture wrote:
> In article<kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>   "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  wrote:
>
>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>
> Writing checks?
>
> How quaint.
>

I also thought about that a little.
Is Gilbert talking about those paper checks one
used back in the 80's and earlier ? Haven't written
one in something like 30 years now...

In article <893eprFge0U2@mid.individual.net>,
 billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

> And before someone chimes in again about the fact that early hardware
> was inadequate to run VMS, let me throw in that the requirement for a
> desktop and a server are not the same.  I still believe, if they had
> actually cared, DEC could have had a version of VMS that could have
> run on desktop and even laptop PC's running on commodity hardware with
> all the needed desktop apps even before Windows came into existence.
> Just think how well something like that could have been integrated into
> a whole enterprise VMS environment.  Sigh.......

VWS ran fine on my VAXstation 2000.

By contrast DECWindows left little RAM for running applications, and 
also used a goodly chunk of the RD54 disk.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <00A9FC90.109EC9CB@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
 VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <893l6jFge0U5@mid.individual.net>, billg999@cs.uofs.edu (Bill 
> Gunshannon) writes:
> >In article <00A9FC82.F4AB3A3B@sendspamhere.org>,
> >	VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> >> In article <i0hv54$kpu$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm 
> >> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> >>>On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
> >>>> correctly - in fact not at all.  This makes working in TPU which
> >>>> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
> >>>
> >>>I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...
> >>>
> >>>What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
> >>>How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
> >>>using a non-printable character ?
> >>>
> >>>It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
> >>>problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
> >>>emulators.
> >>>
> >>>Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
> >>>would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
> >>>I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...
> >> 
> >> The backward ? is just a placeholder for a non-printable character.  
> >> Without
> >> it, it looks like a space.  For example, suppose what you were editing had 
> >> a
> >> set of escape sequences to erase the screen and home the cursor:
> >> 
> >> <esc>[2J<esc>[H
> >> 
> >> On TPU on a terminal with the backward ? support, you'd see:
> >> 
> >> ?[2J?[H   (assume the ? is the backward ?)
> >> 
> >> Without support, you'd see:
> >> 
> >>  [2J [H
> >
> >Neither of which actually displays what is there and so both are wrong.
> >
> >If anything, the application should take care of presenting the non-
> >pritnable character but it would be best if it did so in a way that
> >accurately represented what the character was.  A pretty standard (at
> >least de facto) way is to use the printable character it equates to
> >preceded by a ^.  
> 
> I use EDT which displays <esc>, ^Z, ^G, etc.

But those representations aren't suitable for editing data files where 
you want to see correct column positioning. TPU is better suited for 
this, and it wouldn't surprise me if this the scenario the OP is trying 
to address.

TPU displays a form feed (^L) by a single (graphical) character 
representing "FF" (and a similar representation for vertical tab). A 
theoretical solution might have been to implement similar graphical 
representations for all non-printable characters, but now we are getting 
into what the hardware of the day could support.

-- 
Paul Sture

Paul Sture wrote:
> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>  "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
> 
> Writing checks?
> 
> How quaint.
> 

A man has to pay his bills somehow!  I've been writing checks, or having 
my computer print them out, for something like 50 years now.  I'm used 
to it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.

On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Paul Sture wrote:
>> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>
>> Writing checks?
>>
>> How quaint.
>>
>
> A man has to pay his bills somehow!

Don't you have internet banking over there ?
What has bills to do with checks *today* ??

> I've been writing checks, or having
> my computer print them out,

You *are* joking, right ?
That just can't be true...

> for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
> it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.

I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
then one with you to the bank office...

It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
a check as payment over here !

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 14:41, Paul Sture wrote:
>> In article<kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>   "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>
>> Writing checks?
>>
>> How quaint.
>>
> 
> I also thought about that a little.
> Is Gilbert talking about those paper checks one
> used back in the 80's and earlier ? Haven't written
> one in something like 30 years now...
> 

Yes!  My computer writes/prints them.  I sign them the old fashioned 
way, with a pen.  I suppose I could pay some of my bills electronically 
but what I'm doing works and has, with minimal doses of technology, for 
the last fifty years or so.

When something goes wrong, and things do go wrong, I have that 
paper/microfilm trail. . . .   I bought a car a few years ago and paid 
by check; $7000.00.  The check cleared for $700.00 and it took almost 
eight months to get it straightened out.  I saw the problem when I got 
my bank statement.  The remaining seven months were required to convince 
the automobile dealer that he had been shorted $6,300.00!!!!  Nobody 
wanted to believe it!

It finally dawned on the book keeping department, when their fiscal year 
ended, that they had mislaid a large chunk of money!  *Then* they 
started taking me seriously!

I have and use a "Debit Card" in preference to a credit card!  I also 
have credit cards but I seldom use them!

In article <i0ng0l$ubg$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>>
>>> Writing checks?
>>>
>>> How quaint.
>>>
>>
>> A man has to pay his bills somehow!
>
>Don't you have internet banking over there ?

Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods, bible-
thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons, we've managed to get banking
via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now.  Just
wish they'd devise something to keep those splinters out of the arse whilst
pecking away on the keyboard in the lil' white house loo paying those bills.


>What has bills to do with checks *today* ??

My kids have come around with forms for one thing or another that have no
information as to where to pay the item on-line.  Examples: campus and off-
campus parking decals, school clubs, etc. and these are usually very small
amounts.  With a check/cheque, there's at least a paper trail.


>> I've been writing checks, or having
>> my computer print them out,
>
>You *are* joking, right ?
>That just can't be true...

Computers have been printing checks/cheques for decades now.  Maybe it is
you who are in the backwoods?  


>> for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
>> it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
>
>I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
>just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
>a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
>And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
>then one with you to the bank office...

Sweden also limits you to what you can do, drink and eat.  I do like those
Lakerol my friend brings me.


>It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
>a check as payment over here !

I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
account number and then they automatically ping your account for anything
and everything.  That wouldn't flush here in the US.  I don't even like my
bank knowing about my money because it's not private as the gov't knows as
well.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my 
>>>> checks.
>>>
>>> Writing checks?
>>>
>>> How quaint.
>>>
>>
>> A man has to pay his bills somehow!
> 
> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
> 
>> I've been writing checks, or having
>> my computer print them out,
> 
> You *are* joking, right ?
> That just can't be true...
> 
>> for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
>> it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
> 
> I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
> just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
> a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
> And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
> then one with you to the bank office...
> 
> It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
> a check as payment over here !
> 

In the U.S.A. checks are still very much in use although some uses are 
less frequent than they used to be.  I pay for my purchases with a 
*Debit* card rather than a credit card.  The money is taken directly 
from my bank account.  I still pay for telephone service, water, natural 
gas, and electricity by check.  That may change!

On 2010-07-03 16:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:


>
> I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
> account number

I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <i0ng0l$ubg$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
>> On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>>> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>>> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>>> Writing checks?
>>>>
>>>> How quaint.
>>>>
>>> A man has to pay his bills somehow!
>> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
> 
> Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods, bible-
> thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons, we've managed to get banking
> via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now.  Just
> wish they'd devise something to keep those splinters out of the arse whilst
> pecking away on the keyboard in the lil' white house loo paying those bills.
> 
> 
>> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
> 
> My kids have come around with forms for one thing or another that have no
> information as to where to pay the item on-line.  Examples: campus and off-
> campus parking decals, school clubs, etc. and these are usually very small
> amounts.  With a check/cheque, there's at least a paper trail.
> 
> 
>>> I've been writing checks, or having
>>> my computer print them out,
>> You *are* joking, right ?
>> That just can't be true...
> 
> Computers have been printing checks/cheques for decades now.  Maybe it is
> you who are in the backwoods?  
> 
> 
>>> for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
>>> it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
>> I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
>> just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
>> a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
>> And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
>> then one with you to the bank office...
> 
> Sweden also limits you to what you can do, drink and eat.  I do like those
> Lakerol my friend brings me.
> 
> 
>> It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
>> a check as payment over here !
> 
> I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
> account number and then they automatically ping your account for anything
> and everything.  That wouldn't flush here in the US.  I don't even like my
> bank knowing about my money because it's not private as the gov't knows as
> well.
> 

<snicker, choke, gasp>

Big Brother IS Watching You!!!!!!

In article <i0nbst$o9i$1@news.albasani.net>,
	Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes:
> On 2010-07-03 14:41, Paul Sture wrote:
>> In article<kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
>>   "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilbert88@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>
>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>
>> Writing checks?
>>
>> How quaint.
>>
> 
> I also thought about that a little.
> Is Gilbert talking about those paper checks one
> used back in the 80's and earlier ? Haven't written
> one in something like 30 years now...

That's actually funny.  I had not even carried a checkbook since the
early 80's.  Until I was mobilized last year and had to get and maintain
an apartment where the Army put me.  And then I found myself back using
checks to pay a lot of bills again.  Amazing how many places either
can't deal with or are too inconvenient to deal with credit cards.
The price for living in hicksville!!

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 16:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>> I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
>> account number
> 
> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
> 

I hope that something other than your account number is required to make 
withdrawals from your account!

On 2010-07-03 16:54, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

> In the U.S.A. checks are still very much in use although some uses are
> less frequent than they used to be. I pay for my purchases with a
> *Debit* card rather than a credit card. The money is taken directly from
> my bank account. I still pay for telephone service, water, natural gas,
> and electricity by check. That may change!
>
>
>

Private purchases and ATM withdraws : my private debit-card.
Business purchases : my business credit-card.
All bills (private and business): through my internet bank(s)
(including my monthly invoice on my business credit-card)

Most private bills (like electricity, gas (car), telephone,
internet, house rent and other periodic bills) are sent directly
to my internet bank where I simpy click "accept" and they are
payed. Takes a few seconds. If I want/need a paper copy there
is a PDF copy in my internet bank to print out.

I almost never pays by cash and not in > 20 years by checks.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??

Out of cursiosity, how do corporations settle bills in Sweden ?

I can understand consumer banking having moved to electronic payments.
But would corporations still use cheques when making payments to
suppliers, especially those outside of Sweden ?

On 2010-07-03 17:06, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> On 2010-07-03 16:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their
>>> bank
>>> account number
>>
>> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
>> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
>>
>
> I hope that something other than your account number is required to make
> withdrawals from your account!

Of course.
Either access to my internet bank or some ID to prove that
you are me. To get access to my internet bank you need access to
my USB connected card-reader, the actual card for the reader
*and* my PIN code to activate the reader.

The account *number* as such is no secret. That would be like
securing a VMS account by not telling the username... :-)

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods, bible-
> thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons, 

But isn't that a correct description of the unites states ? Isn't that
how it wants to be perceived ? Seems to me that those who deny the
evolution-denying trend are the exception rather than the norm these
days :-)


> we've managed to get banking
> via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now. 

In fairness, countries with more limited number of banks have been able
to setup more integrated nationwide payment systems. In the USA, it
appears that the only national payment system remains the credit card
processing (even though some credit cards debit your chequing accounts
once the transction is done, it is still a credit card transaction).

Some european countries are far ahead with electronic payment systems
deployed for even greater uses.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

Im fairness, the USA now has something called paypall which is a big
advance in money-less/paper-less payment systems between individuals and
between companies. And it allows international transations as well.

On 2010-07-03 17:17, JF Mezei wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
>> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
>
> Out of cursiosity, how do corporations settle bills in Sweden ?
>
> I can understand consumer banking having moved to electronic payments.
> But would corporations still use cheques when making payments to
> suppliers, especially those outside of Sweden ?

Of course not.

I run a business and I have to separate internet banking ID's.

One private (with all my private accounts, savings, the "depot"
where my savings in shares and state bounds are listed). And one
business internet bank where all my business stuff are handled.

Swedish business : internet bank, payment to giro accounts.

EU payments : internet bank, usualy to some IBAN number like
"SE25 6000 0000 0001 2362 8628" (which is the IBAN number to
make payments to *my* bank account).

Non-EU payments : Depends. Wire transfer if the other part can/want
to tell me there bank account number. But mostly Paypal.

There is not a single user (private or business) over here that
have used checks for some decades now.

On 2010-07-03 17:25, JF Mezei wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
>> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
>
> Im fairness, the USA now has something called paypall which is a big
> advance in money-less/paper-less payment systems between individuals and
> between companies. And it allows international transations as well.

Of course. I have been using Paypal for some 7-8 years now. But for
national payments there is no need at all. All payments for, say,
payments for internet auction sites (think a local/national eBay)
are 100% made by direct transfers from buyers bank account to
sellers bank account. This is without any costs within Sweden.
For anything outside of Sweden, I use Paypal (and pay the fees).

JF Mezei wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods, bible-
>> thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons, 
> 
> But isn't that a correct description of the unites states ? Isn't that
> how it wants to be perceived ? Seems to me that those who deny the
> evolution-denying trend are the exception rather than the norm these
> days :-)
> 
> 
>> we've managed to get banking
>> via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now. 
> 
> In fairness, countries with more limited number of banks have been able
> to setup more integrated nationwide payment systems. In the USA, it
> appears that the only national payment system remains the credit card
> processing (even though some credit cards debit your chequing accounts
> once the transction is done, it is still a credit card transaction).

   The only resemblance between the debit and credit cards is the 
plastic card and the magnetic stripe!  They function differently behind 
the scenes.

   The debit card works at electronic speed; swipe your card, sign your 
name and the money moves from your account to the payee's account as 
fast as the computers can do it.  The vendor pays the bank for the service

The credit card moves the bank's money to the payee's account and you 
get a bill at the end of the month.  You pay for this service.

<snip>

On 2010-07-03 18:02, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods,
>>> bible-
>>> thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons,
>>
>> But isn't that a correct description of the unites states ? Isn't that
>> how it wants to be perceived ? Seems to me that those who deny the
>> evolution-denying trend are the exception rather than the norm these
>> days :-)
>>
>>
>>> we've managed to get banking
>>> via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now.
>>
>> In fairness, countries with more limited number of banks have been able
>> to setup more integrated nationwide payment systems. In the USA, it
>> appears that the only national payment system remains the credit card
>> processing (even though some credit cards debit your chequing accounts
>> once the transction is done, it is still a credit card transaction).

No it is not. A credit-card transaction goes through some
creadit card issuer (AmEx, MasterCard and Visa are probably
the largest). A deb-card works directly on-line against your
actual bank and the transaction never passes a credit card
issuer. If you do not have enough founds on your bank
account, the transaction isn't accepted.

Now, all swedish debit-cards are also connected to MasterCard
och Visa (usualy) so it works world-wide as a normal credit-card
also (might be due to some "enabling" at your bank).

>
> The only resemblance between the debit and credit cards is the plastic
> card and the magnetic stripe! They function differently behind the scenes.

Our cards has a chip instead of the magnetic stripe today.

>
> The debit card works at electronic speed; swipe your card, sign your
> name

Usualy enter your PIN code. Most places like restaurangs and such
has small portable on-line payment terminals that works over
the cellular telephone network where you pay "at the table" using
your card and your PIN code. Looks like those small Dymo label
printers. Simply a cellular phone and a card-reader integrated
into the same tool.

Here is an example :
http://www.point.se/Sweden/Produkter/Kortterminaler/Vx670-/
The page is in Swedish...
Works over GPRS (mobile internet).
Is still a deb-card payment and you need actual founds
on your bank account to make the payment.

In article <4c2f55f0$0$32474$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Yes, contrary to your media's depiction of us as a gang of backwoods, bible-
>> thumping, gun-toting, evolution-denying loons, 
>
>But isn't that a correct description of the unites states ? Isn't that
>how it wants to be perceived ? Seems to me that those who deny the
>evolution-denying trend are the exception rather than the norm these
>days :-)

No.  That's only how your media wish to portray the US.

When I have my friends here from Scandanavia, I here about how they
can to this and or they can't do that when I do something contrary
here.  To them, we appear like a group of wildass loons and, to me,
they appear as a group of political prisoners.  If they want to live
in fear of their gov't, that's fine but don't impose that fear upon
me.  

   When the people fear their government, there is tyranny;
   when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
   -- Thomas Jefferson


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jul 3, 3:03=A0pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> > Paul Sture wrote:
> >> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdn...@giganews.com>,
> >> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my chec=
ks.
>
> >> Writing checks?
>
> >> How quaint.
>
> > A man has to pay his bills somehow!
>
> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
>
> > I've been writing checks, or having
> > my computer print them out,
>
> You *are* joking, right ?
> That just can't be true...
>
> > for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
> > it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
>
> I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
> just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
> a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
> And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
> then one with you to the bank office...
>
> It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
> a check as payment over here !

Really? Impossible?

I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
"two of three signatories must be present in the branch".

So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
authorisation problem.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 18:02, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>
>>>> we've managed to get banking
>>>> via the internet piped into our backyard outhouses for some time now.
>>>
>>> In fairness, countries with more limited number of banks have been able
>>> to setup more integrated nationwide payment systems. In the USA, it
>>> appears that the only national payment system remains the credit card
>>> processing (even though some credit cards debit your chequing accounts
>>> once the transction is done, it is still a credit card transaction).
> 
> No it is not. A credit-card transaction goes through some
> creadit card issuer (AmEx, MasterCard and Visa are probably
> the largest). A deb-card works directly on-line against your
> actual bank and the transaction never passes a credit card
> issuer.

In the U.S. there is another difference.  A credit card has various 
consumer protections guaranteed by law, including theft and fraud 
protection.  Debit cards do not have anything other than the current 
policy of the issuer.

> If you do not have enough founds on your bank account, the transaction
> isn't accepted.

Before the recent financial reform, the issuer could let the transaction 
go through by issuing a very high interest loan + a high origination fee.

Under the new law, you have to opt into it by following the helpful 
instructions by returning a card like that my bank mailed me, with a 
note claiming that giving them permission to overcharge me is critical 
to giving me good service, and it was urgent that I check the box and 
bring the card back to them.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only

On Jul 3, 11:12=A0am, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 16:54, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> > In the U.S.A. checks are still very much in use although some uses are
> > less frequent than they used to be. I pay for my purchases with a
> > *Debit* card rather than a credit card. The money is taken directly fro=
m
> > my bank account. I still pay for telephone service, water, natural gas,
> > and electricity by check. That may change!
>
> Private purchases and ATM withdraws : my private debit-card.
> Business purchases : my business credit-card.
> All bills (private and business): through my internet bank(s)
> (including my monthly invoice on my business credit-card)
>
> Most private bills (like electricity, gas (car), telephone,
> internet, house rent and other periodic bills) are sent directly
> to my internet bank where I simpy click "accept" and they are
> payed. Takes a few seconds. If I want/need a paper copy there
> is a PDF copy in my internet bank to print out.

That paper copy might not do you much good if you have a problem with
the bank!

>
> I almost never pays by cash and not in > 20 years by checks.

On 2010-07-03 19:51, John Wallace wrote:
> On Jul 3, 3:03 pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Sture wrote:
>>>> In article<kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdn...@giganews.com>,
>>>> "Richard B. Gilbert"<rgilber...@comcast.net>  wrote:
>>
>>>>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
>>
>>>> Writing checks?
>>
>>>> How quaint.
>>
>>> A man has to pay his bills somehow!
>>
>> Don't you have internet banking over there ?
>> What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
>>
>>> I've been writing checks, or having
>>> my computer print them out,
>>
>> You *are* joking, right ?
>> That just can't be true...
>>
>>> for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
>>> it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
>>
>> I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
>> just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
>> a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
>> And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
>> then one with you to the bank office...
>>
>> It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
>> a check as payment over here !
>
> Really? Impossible?
>
> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>
> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
> authorisation problem.

Isn't that a specific "problem" with authorisation of *checks* ?
If you don't use checks, how is that still a problem ?

The reason I said that you can't get anyone to accept a check as
payment is that the banks will charge $10-$20 USD just to clear it.

And why make the trouble to get the check to a bank office, when you
could have the payment done directly to your account ?

(Paper) checks belongs to bank business of the 80's and earlier.
Those younger then, say, 30 years over here have never seen a check
and does not know what it is if they saw one. They just doesn't
exists.

On 2010-07-04 01:10, Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Jul 3, 11:12 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2010-07-03 16:54, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> In the U.S.A. checks are still very much in use although some uses are
>>> less frequent than they used to be. I pay for my purchases with a
>>> *Debit* card rather than a credit card. The money is taken directly from
>>> my bank account. I still pay for telephone service, water, natural gas,
>>> and electricity by check. That may change!
>>
>> Private purchases and ATM withdraws : my private debit-card.
>> Business purchases : my business credit-card.
>> All bills (private and business): through my internet bank(s)
>> (including my monthly invoice on my business credit-card)
>>
>> Most private bills (like electricity, gas (car), telephone,
>> internet, house rent and other periodic bills) are sent directly
>> to my internet bank where I simpy click "accept" and they are
>> payed. Takes a few seconds. If I want/need a paper copy there
>> is a PDF copy in my internet bank to print out.
>
> That paper copy might not do you much good if you have a problem with
> the bank!
>

What "problem" ?
I do not need a paper copy to prove anything against the *bank*,
they (and I) always have the payment log in there systems. I can
access it through my internet banking and they can see the same
data of course.

I was more thinking of such uses as my business accounting. They
still want a separate paper for each transaction/payment done.


>>
>> I almost never pays by cash and not in>  20 years by checks.
>

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0okdc$81p$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-03 19:51, John Wallace wrote:
>> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
>> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
>> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
>> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
>> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
>> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
>> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>>
>> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
>> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
>> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
>> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
>> authorisation problem.
>
> Isn't that a specific "problem" with authorisation of *checks* ?
> If you don't use checks, how is that still a problem ?
>
I think the problem was, how do you setup an account that requires multiple 
authorizations like is available with the multi-signature checks,  Many 
groups in the US have these to make sure no one person can be taking money 
that is not theirs... thus the comment "or does everyone where you are trust 
everyone else?"

Personally, I only write checks for the school (field trips, etc), PTA fund 
raisers and other similar things where I need the proof for tax purposes and 
do not have a CC option.  The school only just started accepting electronic 
payment for the lunch accounts during this year, so no more checks for them. 

"Steven Underwood" <underwood+nntp@spamcop.net> wrote in message 
news:DyRXn.5746$xZ2.4378@newsfe07.iad...
>
> "Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
> news:i0okdc$81p$1@news.albasani.net...
>> On 2010-07-03 19:51, John Wallace wrote:
>>> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
>>> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
>>> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
>>> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
>>> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
>>> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
>>> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>>>
>>> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
>>> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
>>> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
>>> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
>>> authorisation problem.
>>
>> Isn't that a specific "problem" with authorisation of *checks* ?
>> If you don't use checks, how is that still a problem ?
>>
> I think the problem was, how do you setup an account that requires 
> multiple authorizations like is available with the multi-signature checks, 
> Many groups in the US have these to make sure no one person can be taking 
> money that is not theirs... thus the comment "or does everyone where you 
> are trust everyone else?"
>
> Personally, I only write checks for the school (field trips, etc), PTA 
> fund raisers and other similar things where I need the proof for tax 
> purposes and do not have a CC option.  The school only just started 
> accepting electronic payment for the lunch accounts during this year, so 
> no more checks for them.

And while talking to my wife just now about this topic, I found out she used 
checks recently for graduation gifts because the gift cards she was going to 
give were charging $4-5 USD service fee, to big a hit for a $25 gift.  My 
daughter also just got several checks from family for her birthday.

Jan:  How do you handle small personal monetary gifts like this? 

On 3 July, 19:51, John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jul 3, 3:03=A0pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 2010-07-03 15:32, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> > > Paul Sture wrote:
> > >> In article <kdidndrMiJZfXLbRnZ2dnUVZ_hWdn...@giganews.com>,
> > >> "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >>> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my ch=
ecks.
>
> > >> Writing checks?
>
> > >> How quaint.
>
> > > A man has to pay his bills somehow!
>
> > Don't you have internet banking over there ?
> > What has bills to do with checks *today* ??
>
> > > I've been writing checks, or having
> > > my computer print them out,
>
> > You *are* joking, right ?
> > That just can't be true...
>
> > > for something like 50 years now. I'm used to
> > > it and my creditors don't seem to have any problem with it.
>
> > I just checked and most banks in Sweden charges well over $10 USD
> > just to check-in *one* of those old paper checks. That is if you are
> > a customer at the same bank, if not that charge aprox $20 USD.
> > And that is for *each* check, you do the math if you have more
> > then one with you to the bank office...
>
> > It would be absolutely impossible to get someone to accept
> > a check as payment over here !
>
> Really? Impossible?
>
> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>
> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
> authorisation problem.

CAF bank (IIRC) handles this by e-mailing the other authorised
persons, one of whom then logs in to authorise it. But I think it was
remarked in another group that few if any other banks have a similar
service, but you'll have to ask yours.

To those querying why we still have cheques in the UK: one reason is
that you'll find it _very_ difficult to persuade anyone it's safe to
give you their bank account details -- too much paranoia about
identity theft. (Yes, I know the details are on every cheque you
write, together with a specimen signature.) A newspaper columnist
tried to emphasise the  safety of giving out your account number by
printing his own in his column. Someone promptly demonstrated how to
get money out of it.

Chris

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:

>    The debit card works at electronic speed; swipe your card, sign your 
> name and the money moves from your account to the payee's account as 
> fast as the computers can do it.  The vendor pays the bank for the service

But to the merchant,  isn't it processed just like a credit card
transaction (both at the counter and for getting paid) ?


In Canada, Australia and New Zealand, there are national systems where
you use your ATM card and PIN to pay for goods/services. Totally
separate frm a credit card transactio, no signature. Any bank's ATM card
can be used at any store nationwide. (that is because of a relatively
small number of banks which makes it easy to get a coordinated system in
place)

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> No.  That's only how your media wish to portray the US.

The american side of our family denies evolution. (Except for one
cousin, but she was murdered by her husband, and the kids (who had been
thought evolution was scientificaly proven) were moved to a
evolution-denying uncle/aunt and by now, they have probably been
brainwashed.

In article 
<ce421d12-27da-404d-bf43-fc7eac6fbbb1@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
 John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".

By "computer script" do you mean someone authorising individual cheques 
at a screen? That's got to be expensive.

> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
> authorisation problem.

It's a good question, but even going back 30+ years to my first computer 
job, roughly half the suppliers were paid by cheque, and the others by 
bank transfer. The former were signed by the company secretary plus one 
director. The transfers were not individually signed, though the total 
batch handed over to the bank might have been. We didn't use tapes or 
modems back in those days; these transfers were printed on relatively 
simple pre-printed forms.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <GeKdnZ2L_IOTz7LRnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B.
Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes: 

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > On 2010-07-03 16:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>
> >> I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
> >> account number
> > 
> > I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
> > http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
> 
> I hope that something other than your account number is required to make 
> withdrawals from your account!

Of course.  Many people know your account number---anyone you have ever 
sent money to from your account.  They can't just come and say "I know 
the account number, give me money".  Same way with credit-card numbers.
At least in the old days with the paper slider-printer, anyone you 
bought from had your card number.  That doesn't mean he can use it to 
buy things for himself.

In article <i0nkck$5b5$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

   Company name Jan-Erik S�derholm Consulting AB

AB is aktiebolag, or company with stocks, right?  So you have a company
bearing your name which has issued stock?  Do you own all the stock?  If
so, wouldn't there be less overhead with some other sort of
organisation? 

In article
<5b1b62bf-1794-4984-8b3d-0caeef64aeb5@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>,
chrisj.doran@proemail.co.uk writes: 

> To those querying why we still have cheques in the UK: one reason is
> that you'll find it _very_ difficult to persuade anyone it's safe to
> give you their bank account details -- too much paranoia about
> identity theft. (Yes, I know the details are on every cheque you
> write, together with a specimen signature.) A newspaper columnist
> tried to emphasise the  safety of giving out your account number by
> printing his own in his column. Someone promptly demonstrated how to
> get money out of it.

Then your system is broken.

On 2010-07-04 03:47, Steven Underwood wrote:
>
> "Steven Underwood" <underwood+nntp@spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:DyRXn.5746$xZ2.4378@newsfe07.iad...
>>
>> "Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message
>> news:i0okdc$81p$1@news.albasani.net...
>>> On 2010-07-03 19:51, John Wallace wrote:
>>>> I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
>>>> has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
>>>> people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
>>>> phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
>>>> without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
>>>> computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
>>>> "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>>>>
>>>> So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
>>>> or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
>>>> less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
>>>> get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
>>>> authorisation problem.
>>>
>>> Isn't that a specific "problem" with authorisation of *checks* ?
>>> If you don't use checks, how is that still a problem ?
>>>
>> I think the problem was, how do you setup an account that requires
>> multiple authorizations like is available with the multi-signature
>> checks, Many groups in the US have these to make sure no one person
>> can be taking money that is not theirs... thus the comment "or does
>> everyone where you are trust everyone else?"
>>
>> Personally, I only write checks for the school (field trips, etc), PTA
>> fund raisers and other similar things where I need the proof for tax
>> purposes and do not have a CC option. The school only just started
>> accepting electronic payment for the lunch accounts during this year,
>> so no more checks for them.
>
> And while talking to my wife just now about this topic, I found out she
> used checks recently for graduation gifts because the gift cards she was
> going to give were charging $4-5 USD service fee, to big a hit for a $25
> gift. My daughter also just got several checks from family for her
> birthday.
>
> Jan: How do you handle small personal monetary gifts like this?

It all depends on the sum invovled.

Smaller sums (a few 10's of USD), probably cash.

Medium sums, maybe a "gift card" bought from some shop
that I know the target likes. Or (like how I do it muself)
simply make a transfer using my internet bank application
directly to the bank account of the "target". Fee = $0.
Just click "transfer", enter the account info, the sum and
clock "accept". Done. It's free of charge (for both parts)
between all Swedish banks.

I've not owned a check-book for 20 years and why would I write
anyone a check that would cost him/her $10-$20 to cash-in ? :-)

On 2010-07-04 08:53, JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>>     The debit card works at electronic speed; swipe your card, sign your
>> name and the money moves from your account to the payee's account as
>> fast as the computers can do it.  The vendor pays the bank for the service
>
> But to the merchant,  isn't it processed just like a credit card
> transaction (both at the counter and for getting paid) ?
>
>
> In Canada, Australia and New Zealand, there are national systems where
> you use your ATM card

In Sweden there are no "ATM cards". The standard "Bank Card" works
at the ATM terminals, in shops and (if you're > 18 yrs) as a
credit card (of you're on holliday or such).

> and PIN to pay for goods/services. Totally
> separate frm a credit card transactio, no signature.

Yes. Same here. Even if my card happens to be connected to
Visa, Visa has nothing to do with any payments done
within Sweden. They are always on-line, no matter if they
are at the ATM terminal, on a shop with direct connected
payment terminals or someone using handheld (GPRS, mobile
internet connected) terminals.

Using the newer card-ternminals it's usualy faster with the
card then to hand over cash and wait for the change. A few
secs usualy, depends on how fast you can enter your PIN. :-)

> Any bank's ATM card
> can be used at any store nationwide.

I can use my "Bank Card" world-wide (since it is connected to Visa).
But not always on-line and usualy not using the PIN outside of Sweden.


> (that is because of a relatively
> small number of banks which makes it easy to get a coordinated system in
> place)

On 2010-07-04 13:11, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
> In article<i0nkck$5b5$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  writes:
>
>> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.
>> http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
>
>     Company name Jan-Erik S�derholm Consulting AB
>
> AB is aktiebolag, or company with stocks, right?  So you have a company
> bearing your name which has issued stock?  Do you own all the stock?  If
> so, wouldn't there be less overhead with some other sort of
> organisation?
>

Correct. I'm the only owner. And it is the smalles possible
stock value allowed in Sweden (100.000 SEK).

There could be less overhead with a private owned company, but at
the time of the change to an "AB" there was some tax related
"things" to concider. And besides, there are some other things also.
I can take out some of the AB's income as "dividend" at a much lower
tax (20%) then when paying a normal sallary (aprox 35%). And it is
also easier to have fully separate economics (company vs private)
with less risk of using up money that whould have been saved
for (e.g) taxes... :-)

And, my main (and only) occupation is OpenVMS consulting (just to
get this slightly back on-track... :-) )

On Jul 4, 10:57=A0am, Paul Sture <paul.nos...@sture.ch> wrote:
> In article
> <ce421d12-27da-404d-bf43-fc7eac6fb...@b35g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
> =A0John Wallace <johnwalla...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I've been on the committee of a few voluntary groups and each of them
> > has had a cheque book with the requirement that two of three named
> > people must sign any cheque. A little local difficulty recently had me
> > phoning the bank to see if telephone banking would authorise a payment
> > without both signatures; initially the rep said "yes" but when the
> > computer script came to actually authorize the payment, it refused -
> > "two of three signatories must be present in the branch".
>
> By "computer script" do you mean someone authorising individual cheques
> at a screen? That's got to be expensive.
>
> > So how does that kind of thing work without multi-signature cheques,
> > or does everyone where you are trust everyone else? The question is
> > less academic than it may seem, as the UK banks would dearly like to
> > get rid of cheques, but I haven't yet seen an answer to the multiple
> > authorisation problem.
>
> It's a good question, but even going back 30+ years to my first computer
> job, roughly half the suppliers were paid by cheque, and the others by
> bank transfer. The former were signed by the company secretary plus one
> director. The transfers were not individually signed, though the total
> batch handed over to the bank might have been. We didn't use tapes or
> modems back in those days; these transfers were printed on relatively
> simple pre-printed forms.
>
> --
> Paul Sture

ChrisJ and Steven have the situation about right.

It's not so much authorising individual cheques (though in theory the
banks do check cheques for validity to some extent, on a sampled
basis), more about (not) authorising non-cheque payments over the
phone in the same way as a standard personal phone/internet banking
account.

In the scenario being discussed, the organisation (company, voluntary
group, whatever) has its bank account set up so as to require
authorisation from two people before making a payment. The idea is
that one of the signatories cannot run off with the money on their
own, though obviously two co-conspirators could).

The "computer script" in this picture is the one which prompts the
bank's call centre reps. Apparently the two reps I initially dealt
with, who I asked a hypothetical question - can I do this - didn't
realise that a two-signatory account couldn't make a payment over the
phone, because that's only one person's authorisation (otherwise
what's the point of having two signatories). When I actually tried to
make a payment by phone, the script programmed into the computer
correctly spots that it's a two-signatory account and therefore over-
the-phone payments cannot be authorised.

It seems the CAF (Charities Aid Foundation) have a mechanism for
handling this, but the organisations I'm involved with are low-
turnover organisations where being a formally registered charity
(which I *assume* the CAF bank requires, though it's not immediately
100% obvious) isn't really practical.

http://www.cafonline.org/default.aspx?page=3D6893

Incidentally the "journalist" who lost money after publishing his bank
details wasn't a real journalist, it was the well known stirrer/idiot
Jeremy Clarkson. He published his bank details in a rag called the Sun
and someone used those details to transfer money from Clarkson's
account to a charity. In his Sun article he was claiming that the UK
government's loss of CDs containing 25million sets of personal details
including bank accounts was not noteworthy. Apparently the direct
debit transfer did not require any proof of identity from the person
requesting the transfer. More info at:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/07/clarkson_bank_prank_backfires/

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0ps0o$vvp$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-04 03:47, Steven Underwood wrote:
>
> I've not owned a check-book for 20 years and why would I write
> anyone a check that would cost him/her $10-$20 to cash-in ? :-)
>

When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20 to clear 
a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.  Yes, in some Sci-Fi 
world (apparently you are already in that Blade Runner world) everyone will 
have a universal ID, and there will be no cash, no checks - just an 
electronic account.  It just hasn't happened here yet.

It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally 
speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my 
bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to prove 
that I did or didn't write/sign it).

I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic means and 
returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to charge 
me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.

On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
> "Jan-Erik Soderholm"<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  wrote in message
> news:i0ps0o$vvp$1@news.albasani.net...
>> On 2010-07-04 03:47, Steven Underwood wrote:
>>
>> I've not owned a check-book for 20 years and why would I write
>> anyone a check that would cost him/her $10-$20 to cash-in ? :-)
>>
>
> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20 to clear
> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.

We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.


> Yes, in some Sci-Fi
> world (apparently you are already in that Blade Runner world) everyone will
> have a universal ID, and there will be no cash, no checks - just an
> electronic account.  It just hasn't happened here yet.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. *I* never said anything
about *no* cash at all.

>
> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally
> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my
> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to prove
> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>
> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic means and
> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to charge
> me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.

Agree on that one.
It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
A step 20 years back in time ! :-)



>
>
>

Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
> 
>>
>> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20 to 
>> clear
>> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.
> 
> We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
> paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.

Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
but in principle it's similar over here.
Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
people mostly use debt orders, something which
might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
to remember.

>>
>> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally
>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my
>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to 
>> prove
>> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>>
>> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic 
>> means and
>> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to 
>> charge
>> me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.
> 
> 
> Agree on that one.
> It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
> Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
> A step 20 years back in time ! :-)

Hearing the recent news from US which made it over the pond,
I guess you can make that 200 years.

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0q4td$dj2$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>> "Jan-Erik Soderholm"<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  wrote in message
>> news:i0ps0o$vvp$1@news.albasani.net...
>>> On 2010-07-04 03:47, Steven Underwood wrote:
>>>
>>> I've not owned a check-book for 20 years and why would I write
>>> anyone a check that would cost him/her $10-$20 to cash-in ? :-)
>>>
>>
>> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20 to 
>> clear
>> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.
>
> We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
> paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.
>

You simply have one less tool to employ, and an assumption that everyone is 
internet connected and computer equipped.  The world is not universally 
network connected or savvy.  My 80yr old parents may send e-mail, but aren't 
paying their bills via the internet.  Banks would love to get rid of 
checks - but not for my convenience - but for their own bottom line.  But 
they haven't been able to find a way to do it because the ***vast*** 
majority of people here still ultimately pay their bills by check.  So 
Grandma who lives 30mi from town writes a check for her mortgage and puts it 
in the mail.  She doesn't have to buy a computer, learn to use one, or drive 
into town.

I generally speaking never use cash.  I put everything I can on my Amex (or 
Visa) card and write a check to pay them off every month (or I go online and 
pay them).  It costs me nothing except a stamp to write the check.  I 
*never* use a debit card except to get cash at an ATM - since it does not 
provide me the protections that my credit cards do.  I pay no interest in 
credit card debt since I carry none (but I do pay a yearly premium for using 
Amex).

>
>> Yes, in some Sci-Fi
>> world (apparently you are already in that Blade Runner world) everyone 
>> will
>> have a universal ID, and there will be no cash, no checks - just an
>> electronic account.  It just hasn't happened here yet.
>
> I'm not sure what you are talking about. *I* never said anything
> about *no* cash at all.
>

It's simply the next step in your evolution.  You know, get rid of that old 
paper based system that nobody will miss :-)

>>
>> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally
>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my
>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to 
>> prove
>> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>>
>> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic means 
>> and
>> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to 
>> charge
>> me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.
>
> Agree on that one.
> It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
> Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
> A step 20 years back in time ! :-)
>

They had a rational basis for it.  To take a credit/debit card transation 
they get charged, and by law they can't absorb it but must pass on the cost. 
Perhaps a stupid law.  But they don't get charged for depositing a check.

You grossly overestimate the amount it takes to process a check by the 
*banks*.  Check clearing is a massive business based on it's scale.  The 
costly parts (the checks used to have to physically transfer between banks, 
and the banks used to mail me cancelled checks) have been done away with - 
it is an automated centralized scanning and clearing process.  It probably 
costs less than a penny per check.  The biggest cost isn't to the bank, but 
to the bigger companies that take checks as payment (and have to open the 
mail and process it).  Most companies contract that work out.

Small companies/retailers in general prefer to take a check over plastic as 
long as they are not getting a large number of bad checks.  It is cheaper 
for them - since they pay a charge to the credit card company (or bank for a 
debit card) for the electronic transaction.

The $20 cost to you for a check is simply a case of making the price 
artificially high so that nobody will use it.

There is a whole to-do going on over here right now about the cost of 
transaction fees.  Retailers are unhappy about the amount they pay.  Credit 
card companies and banks don't want to give up the revenue.  Right now in 
general consumers can pay any way they want without an extra charge.  The 
new laws will undo that and one way or the other the banks/credit 
card/retailers will pass new uplifts for electronic transactions onto the 
consumer and provide new incentives to return to cash/checks!  :-)

On 2010-07-04 17:08, Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20
>>> to clear
>>> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.
>>
>> We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
>> paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.
>
> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
> but in principle it's similar over here.
> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> people mostly use debt orders, something which
> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> to remember.
>
>>>
>>> It costs me nothing to write a check. All banks take them. Generally
>>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee. I can go to my
>>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to
>>> prove
>>> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>>>
>>> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic
>>> means and
>>> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to
>>> charge
>>> me $2 to do it electronically. Talk about stupid.
>>
>>
>> Agree on that one.
>> It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
>> Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
>> A step 20 years back in time ! :-)
>
> Hearing the recent news from US which made it over the pond,
> I guess you can make that 200 years.
>

Come to think of another thing, our yearly tax forms.

Someone in this thread wrote about some PC program to
help with the tax forms.

Several years ago we had also to manualy fill in several pages
with income, loans, interest payed, real estate owned and
so on. Today, for most people, without a more complex private
economic situation, everything is pre-filled and there
is a PIN on the form that you SMS (mobile text-message) to
the tax authority to "accept" what's pre-printed on the forms.
That's it. Take a few minutes for most people.

This service was opened in 2004 and today aprox 97% of all that
have to leave a income-report can do that with a single
SMS. You can also enter your PIN on a web-page or by
entering the PIN over phone.

"Michael Kraemer" <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote in message 
news:i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com...
> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>>

> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> people mostly use debt orders, something which
> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> to remember.
>

I assume that this is an automatic monthy bank transfer.  Which is something 
easily setup with most banks here if you want.  However, I personally refuse 
to allow automatic fund transfers from my bank accounts.  I want to have 
explicit control of when and what is transfered.  When the water bill 
accidentally comes in for $3000 instead of $45 - I don't find it trivial.

For companies that allow it, I will use automatic credit card charges to my 
Amex.  It costs me nothing, and when I pay my Amex bill I know which charges 
I have authorized and for how much - and it makes it easier to dispute 
charges when there is a problem.  With a bank transfer, the horse has 
already left the barn.

What can I say.  I prefer the inconvenience of having explicit control over 
my money.

FredK wrote:

> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally 
> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my 
> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to prove 
> that I did or didn't write/sign it).

Same here.  The only charge for me is that some banks will charge for a 
printed copy of the scanned images of the check.

Some banks in the U.S. have fees for checking and minimum balance 
requirements.  I am assuming that those banks only want to do business 
with dumb customers as there are plenty of banks and credit unions that 
offer totally free checking with out stupid fees.

What I absolutely will not allow is automatic withdrawals for time 
payment.  I have had coworkers have lots of problems with them.  The 
only way to cancel them in a dispute is to close all accounts at the bank.

-John
wb8ytw@qsl.network

On 2010-07-04 17:49, FredK wrote:
> "Michael Kraemer"<M.Kraemer@gsi.de>  wrote in message
> news:i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>>> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>>>
>
>> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
>> people mostly use debt orders, something which
>> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
>> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
>> to remember.
>>
>
> I assume that this is an automatic monthy bank transfer.  Which is something
> easily setup with most banks here if you want.  However, I personally refuse
> to allow automatic fund transfers from my bank accounts.  I want to have
> explicit control of when and what is transfered.  When the water bill
> accidentally comes in for $3000 instead of $45 - I don't find it trivial.
>
> For companies that allow it, I will use automatic credit card charges to my
> Amex.  It costs me nothing, and when I pay my Amex bill I know which charges
> I have authorized and for how much - and it makes it easier to dispute
> charges when there is a problem.  With a bank transfer, the horse has
> already left the barn.
>
> What can I say.  I prefer the inconvenience of having explicit control over
> my money.
>
>
>

In my case the bills come into my internet banking application as
orders that I have to "accept". So nothing is debited my account
without my action. But I can accept and enter a number of bills
in one operation. And they are always charged on the right day
and so on. If there is something weird with a specific bill
I can always check that before accepting it.

No, I do not like automatic debiting either. Agree on that...

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0qa8s$lt8$1@news.albasani.net...

> Come to think of another thing, our yearly tax forms.
>
> Someone in this thread wrote about some PC program to
> help with the tax forms.
>
> Several years ago we had also to manualy fill in several pages
> with income, loans, interest payed, real estate owned and
> so on. Today, for most people, without a more complex private
> economic situation, everything is pre-filled and there
> is a PIN on the form that you SMS (mobile text-message) to
> the tax authority to "accept" what's pre-printed on the forms.
> That's it. Take a few minutes for most people.
>
> This service was opened in 2004 and today aprox 97% of all that
> have to leave a income-report can do that with a single
> SMS. You can also enter your PIN on a web-page or by
> entering the PIN over phone.
>

The vast majority of people in the US use the EZ form which is probably a 
couple minutes worth of work and can be electronically filed.  Provided that 
you haven't under-withheld, then you are all set.

Mine are complex enough that I have to file a stack of paper, and usually 
file an extension out of laziness.

Our tax code is complex enough that there is a big business in tax services 
and computer programs to find every possible deduction and loophole.

"John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message 
news:tfudnXzEfLi9M63RnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@mchsi.com...
> FredK wrote:
>
>> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally 
>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my 
>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to 
>> prove that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>
> Same here.  The only charge for me is that some banks will charge for a 
> printed copy of the scanned images of the check.
>

Yup.  DCU is the right balance - I can click on the check online and get a 
PDF image of it...  well. except for some checks to some companies.  But for 
the ones I care about ("who did my wife write this $59.00 check to?") - it 
works for me.

> Some banks in the U.S. have fees for checking and minimum balance 
> requirements.  I am assuming that those banks only want to do business 
> with dumb customers as there are plenty of banks and credit unions that 
> offer totally free checking with out stupid fees.
>
> What I absolutely will not allow is automatic withdrawals for time 
> payment.  I have had coworkers have lots of problems with them.  The only 
> way to cancel them in a dispute is to close all accounts at the bank.
>

***Exactly***

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0qarv$mp4$1@news.albasani.net...

>
> In my case the bills come into my internet banking application as
> orders that I have to "accept". So nothing is debited my account
> without my action. But I can accept and enter a number of bills
> in one operation. And they are always charged on the right day
> and so on. If there is something weird with a specific bill
> I can always check that before accepting it.
>

This gets back to the quaint notion that everyone has a computer - or easy 
access to one *and* that they are willing and able to learn how to use one. 
Which might be feasible in Stockholm, but perhaps not in rural West 
Virginia.

> No, I do not like automatic debiting either. Agree on that...
>

Amen.

In article <i0qa65$475$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com> writes:
>
>"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
>news:i0qarv$mp4$1@news.albasani.net...
>
>>
>> In my case the bills come into my internet banking application as
>> orders that I have to "accept". So nothing is debited my account
>> without my action. But I can accept and enter a number of bills
>> in one operation. And they are always charged on the right day
>> and so on. If there is something weird with a specific bill
>> I can always check that before accepting it.
>>
>
>This gets back to the quaint notion that everyone has a computer - or easy 
>access to one *and* that they are willing and able to learn how to use one. 
>Which might be feasible in Stockholm, but perhaps not in rural West 
>Virginia.

....and in 49 other states too.  There are people -- my mother is one and
my father in law is another and neither are in WV -- who do not want to
own, learn or use a computer.  

Fred, while I have your attention, did you see my posts about DECwindows 
under V8.4???


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

JF Mezei wrote:
> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> 
>>    The debit card works at electronic speed; swipe your card, sign your 
>> name and the money moves from your account to the payee's account as 
>> fast as the computers can do it.  The vendor pays the bank for the service
> 
> But to the merchant,  isn't it processed just like a credit card
> transaction (both at the counter and for getting paid) ?
> 

I don't really know the "system internals".  I just make use of the service!

> 
> In Canada, Australia and New Zealand, there are national systems where
> you use your ATM card and PIN to pay for goods/services. Totally
> separate frm a credit card transactio, no signature. Any bank's ATM card
> can be used at any store nationwide. (that is because of a relatively
> small number of banks which makes it easy to get a coordinated system in
> place)

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> On 2010-07-04 17:08, Michael Kraemer wrote:
>> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
>>> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20
>>>> to clear
>>>> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.
>>>
>>> We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
>>> paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.
>>
>> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
>> but in principle it's similar over here.
>> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
>> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
>> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
>> people mostly use debt orders, something which
>> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
>> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
>> to remember.
>>
>>>>
>>>> It costs me nothing to write a check. All banks take them. Generally
>>>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee. I can go 
>>>> to my
>>>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to
>>>> prove
>>>> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>>>>
>>>> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic
>>>> means and
>>>> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to
>>>> charge
>>>> me $2 to do it electronically. Talk about stupid.
>>>
>>>
>>> Agree on that one.
>>> It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
>>> Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
>>> A step 20 years back in time ! :-)
>>
>> Hearing the recent news from US which made it over the pond,
>> I guess you can make that 200 years.
>>
> 
> Come to think of another thing, our yearly tax forms.
> 
> Someone in this thread wrote about some PC program to
> help with the tax forms.

That was me!

> 
> Several years ago we had also to manually fill in several pages
> with income, loans, interest payed, real estate owned and
> so on. Today, for most people, without a more complex private

Many people can use an abbreviated tax form, called "1040A".  It's one 
sheet of paper and can be used for "simple" tax situations.

The "Long Form" is 1040 (without the A).  It's a real nightmare and a 
professional might charge anywhere from $200 to $400 to complete Form 
1040 with Schedules A, B, C, D, . . . .  and this is AFTER you have 
gathered and furnished your own records of income, withholding taxes 
paid, deductible expenses. . . .  I used to do the tax return forms 
myself but my wife has taken pity on me and agreed to do the paperwork!

FredK <fred.nospam@dec.com> wrote:
(snip)
 
> The vast majority of people in the US use the EZ form which is probably a 
> couple minutes worth of work and can be electronically filed.  Provided that 
> you haven't under-withheld, then you are all set.
 
> Mine are complex enough that I have to file a stack of paper, and usually 
> file an extension out of laziness.
 
> Our tax code is complex enough that there is a big business in tax services 
> and computer programs to find every possible deduction and loophole.

Independent of the complexity of the form, it still seems that many
charge for online tax form submission much more than the stamps
required to mail in the form.   If you are getting a refund, that
might come faster with online submission.  If you are paying tax
with the form it likely comes out of your account faster online
than mailing a check.   When mailed, the postmark date is what
counts, not the arrival date.

-- glen

FredK <fred.nospam@dec.com> wrote:
(snip)

(someone wrote) 
>> Agree on that one.
>> It probably costs them more then $2 to manualy process your check.
>> Electronically it's probably a tenth of a cent.
>> A step 20 years back in time ! :-)
 
> They had a rational basis for it.  To take a credit/debit card transation 
> they get charged, and by law they can't absorb it but must pass on the cost. 
> Perhaps a stupid law.  But they don't get charged for depositing a check.
 
> You grossly overestimate the amount it takes to process a check by the 
> *banks*.  Check clearing is a massive business based on it's scale.  The 
> costly parts (the checks used to have to physically transfer between banks, 
> and the banks used to mail me cancelled checks) have been done away with - 
> it is an automated centralized scanning and clearing process.  It probably 
> costs less than a penny per check.  The biggest cost isn't to the bank, but 
> to the bigger companies that take checks as payment (and have to open the 
> mail and process it).  Most companies contract that work out.

I had an account until last month that still mailed checks back to me.
As I had two checking accounts at two different banks, I closed that
one but I presume they still do mail them.  The other bank doesn't,
but does have an online "check viewing" system.

I have had companies forget to credit my account and needed the
check (or a copy) to prove that I had paid.  
 
> Small companies/retailers in general prefer to take a check over plastic as 
> long as they are not getting a large number of bad checks.  It is cheaper 
> for them - since they pay a charge to the credit card company (or bank for a 
> debit card) for the electronic transaction.

As I understand it, the card companies allow stores to give a
cash discount, but not an add-on charge for using a card.  Most don't
bother with the discount, though.  (Those that do usually also give 
a discount for checks.)
 
> The $20 cost to you for a check is simply a case of making the price 
> artificially high so that nobody will use it.
 
> There is a whole to-do going on over here right now about the cost of 
> transaction fees.  Retailers are unhappy about the amount they pay.  Credit 
> card companies and banks don't want to give up the revenue.  Right now in 
> general consumers can pay any way they want without an extra charge.  The 
> new laws will undo that and one way or the other the banks/credit 
> card/retailers will pass new uplifts for electronic transactions onto the 
> consumer and provide new incentives to return to cash/checks!  :-)

-- glen

On 2010-07-04 18:04, FredK wrote:
> "Jan-Erik Soderholm"<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  wrote in message
> news:i0qarv$mp4$1@news.albasani.net...
>
>>
>> In my case the bills come into my internet banking application as
>> orders that I have to "accept". So nothing is debited my account
>> without my action. But I can accept and enter a number of bills
>> in one operation. And they are always charged on the right day
>> and so on. If there is something weird with a specific bill
>> I can always check that before accepting it.
>>
>
> This gets back to the quaint notion that everyone has a computer - or easy
> access to one *and* that they are willing and able to learn how to use one.

Yes, of course.

In the year 1998 there was a new law according to which
any employer could make tax deductions if they suplied there
employed staff with "Home-PCs". The PC was payed through cuts
in the sallery, but the tax system made this very attractive
for anyone. At the places I was working at that time, everyone
signed up for a "home-PC".

That way, over a timeframe of, say, 5-7 years close to every
home i Sweden had a PC with (at that time) internet connection.
100's of thusends of PC was distributed each year in this way
over the country. This law was withdrawn 1-2 years ago since it
had no role to play anymore. Today there is a PC with internet
connection at (more or less) every household.

In 2009 71% of Swedes between 16-74 yrs used internet for there banking
activites. Probably less at higher ages so in the range 20-40 yrs I'd
say that internet banking might be aprox 90% of the private bank
business in Sweden today.

Yes, some *does* fall behind when bank offices puts fees on there
office services or shortens the opening times but, as I see it,
there is nothing stopping this now or turning time back.








> Which might be feasible in Stockholm, but perhaps not in rural West
> Virginia.
>
>> No, I do not like automatic debiting either. Agree on that...
>>
>
> Amen.
>
>
>

FredK wrote:

> The $20 cost to you for a check is simply a case of making the price 
> artificially high so that nobody will use it.

And in north america, banks tend to charge excessive feels for "modern"
electronic transactions (which is Paypal exists and succeeds).

The thing is that it really does cost a lot of money to process a
cheque. Someoe has to manuallly MICR encode every cheque with the amount
number, and then it needs to travel to that banK,s sortation centre
where it goes through a huge mechanical monster that reads the MIr
encoding of each cheque and put it in  in a folder belongting to the
bank to whome thise cheque needs to travel. It then gets sent to that
bankl who then runs out through it sonw machines to process it an debit
someone's account. And then the cheque is sewnt back to the originaling
bank where it might be included (manually) with your monthly statement
or at least appear on your monthle statement.

<VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG> wrote in message 
news:00A9FF00.D07732B2@SendSpamHere.ORG...
> In article <i0qa65$475$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "FredK" 
> <fred.nospam@dec.com> writes:

> Fred, while I have your attention, did you see my posts about DECwindows
> under V8.4???
>

Horked?  I forwarded it to someone, have not heard back.  Things are a 
little busy.

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message 
news:4c3121eb$0$13558$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> FredK wrote:
>
>> The $20 cost to you for a check is simply a case of making the price
>> artificially high so that nobody will use it.
>
> And in north america, banks tend to charge excessive feels for "modern"
> electronic transactions (which is Paypal exists and succeeds).
>
> The thing is that it really does cost a lot of money to process a
> cheque. Someoe has to manuallly MICR encode every cheque with the amount
> number, and then it needs to travel to that banK,s sortation centre
> where it goes through a huge mechanical monster that reads the MIr
> encoding of each cheque and put it in  in a folder belongting to the
> bank to whome thise cheque needs to travel. It then gets sent to that
> bankl who then runs out through it sonw machines to process it an debit
> someone's account. And then the cheque is sewnt back to the originaling
> bank where it might be included (manually) with your monthly statement
> or at least appear on your monthle statement.

Your description is at least a couple decades out of date.

In article
<f226419e-c6ff-4f5b-83da-b8c5a7b6eeb4@w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> writes: 

> Incidentally the "journalist" who lost money after publishing his bank
> details wasn't a real journalist, it was the well known stirrer/idiot
> Jeremy Clarkson. He published his bank details in a rag called the Sun
> and someone used those details to transfer money from Clarkson's
> account to a charity. In his Sun article he was claiming that the UK
> government's loss of CDs containing 25million sets of personal details
> including bank accounts was not noteworthy. Apparently the direct
> debit transfer did not require any proof of identity from the person
> requesting the transfer. More info at:
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/07/clarkson_bank_prank_backfires/

Again, this indicates that the system is broken.  Hundreds of millions 
of people have given their account number to probably hundreds of 
thousands of people/companies they don't know personally and no-one gets 
ripped off.

Maybe this is due to the lack of ID cards in England.  One common way to 
"prove" identity is to present three pieces of mail addressed to one's 
name (or the name of the person one claims to be) at the address one 
claims as one's current address.  Obviously, this is much easier to fake 
than an ID card, passport, birth certificate etc.

In article <i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer
<M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes: 

> Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
> > On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
> >>
> >> When the US banking system gets stupid to the point of charging $20 to 
> >> clear
> >> a check, then we too will be trapped into your box.
> > 
> > We are not trapped. We are finaly free from using that old
> > paper based payment called checks. Noone misses them.
> 
> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
> but in principle it's similar over here.
> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> people mostly use debt orders, something which
> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> to remember.

Right.  The main difference I see is that in Sweden, credit-card 
transactions are almost always processed via a PIN (as opposed to 
signature---probably better, since a signature is easier to fake, though 
of course vendors should require ID as well in that case, and faster as 
well) whereas in Germany most credit-card transactions are with 
signature (except for withdrawing money from an ATM, which costs a fee 
if done using a CREDIT card).

Historically, there was the credit-card transaction (buy now, pay later 
when the bill arrives) and the direct-debit transaction (funds taken out 
of one's account right away).  These days, the distinction, though still 
present in many cases, is not so clear.  First, online connectivity 
allows vendors to confirm that the credit card has enough credit to 
allow the transaction.  Also, some debit-card issuers allow customers to 
pay with a monthly bill instead of immediately.  To further confuse 
things, the de-facto successor to the Eurocheque are Maestro/Cirrus and 
Delta/Electron, which are operated by Mastercard and Visa respectively.
Extra points for understanding the difference between Maestro and Cirrus 
or between Delta and Electron.

JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> FredK wrote:
 
>> The $20 cost to you for a check is simply a case of making the price 
>> artificially high so that nobody will use it.
 
> And in north america, banks tend to charge excessive feels for "modern"
> electronic transactions (which is Paypal exists and succeeds).
 
> The thing is that it really does cost a lot of money to process a
> cheque. Someoe has to manuallly MICR encode every cheque with the amount
> number, and then it needs to travel to that banK,s sortation centre
> where it goes through a huge mechanical monster that reads the MIr
> encoding of each cheque and put it in  in a folder belongting to the
> bank to whome thise cheque needs to travel. It then gets sent to that
> bankl who then runs out through it sonw machines to process it an debit
> someone's account. And then the cheque is sewnt back to the originaling
> bank where it might be included (manually) with your monthly statement
> or at least appear on your monthle statement.

Yes, but the system is well established, and all the NRE has
been paid for.  There is a lot of NRE to get electronic payments
to work, and to verify that everything is right.  

Now, there have been changes in recent years, some documented in
the Wikipedia page Check_21_Act

Among others, the bank receiving a check can scan it into a
digital image and throw away the paper.  (Well, probably
recyle.)  Then send the digital image along instead of the
paper check, possibly printing a "substitute check" along
the way.   Paper checks that move at electronic speeds!

The Check 21 Act also reduced the time that a bank can wait
before crediting the account of the check depositor.

-- glen

On 3 jul, 16:45, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

>I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
>account number and then they automatically ping your account for anything
>and everything.

You heard wrong, that was North Korea. :-)

In article <693a340a-e5ca-4017-9ab9-89881667dc8f@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Jose Baars <peutbaars@googlemail.com> writes:
>On 3 jul, 16:45, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>>I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their bank
>>account number and then they automatically ping your account for anything
>>and everything.
>
>You heard wrong, that was North Korea. :-)

It wasn't from "hearing" it; it was from being in .NL and experiencing it!

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <i0q2so$1r2$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,
 "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com> wrote:

> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally 
> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my 
> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to prove 
> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
> 
> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic means and 
> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to charge 
> me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.

Does it cost businesses for paying in or writing cheques? The way it 
used to work in the UK was that most private accounts were free (subject 
to either a minimum balance or staying within an agreed overdraft limit) 
but business accounts weren't.

This led to the odd situation where I received the first installment of 
some compensation which strictly speaking ought to have been paid into 
my business account, but that would have cost more in transaction fees 
than the cheque was worth. Into my private account it went.

-- 
Paul Sture

glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

> Yes, but the system is well established, and all the NRE has
> been paid for. 

Cheque sorting equipment is expensive to operate and maintain. Consider
a paper jam for a photocopier. Now, consider something that operates at
least 100 times faster and have many many possible output slots.


> Among others, the bank receiving a check can scan it into a
> digital image and throw away the paper. 

OK, that is an imporvement on the process. But it is still very much a
batch process. In Canada, the rule is that cheques must be processed at
night AFTER deposits have been processed (dates back from the age of
manual banking but is requires so that a cheque written on a payday gets
processed after your pay has been deposited).

With on-line banking, you don't have that paradigm since the transaction
from your account is processed right away. The bank also holds on to
your cash until it is ready to send the funds to the company whose bill
you have just paid. (bill payment is still very much "batch" oriented in
canada, with banks having incentive to hold on to your cash since they
can play with that cash for a few days).

In Canada, some banks have "send money to a friend via email", but it is
not a standard system adopted by all banks, and they charge high fees
for it (hence paypall becomes easier and cheaper).

In article <i0rr57$6d0$2@online.de>,
 helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) 
 wrote:

> To further confuse 
> things, the de-facto successor to the Eurocheque are Maestro/Cirrus and 
> Delta/Electron, which are operated by Mastercard and Visa respectively.
> Extra points for understanding the difference between Maestro and Cirrus 
> or between Delta and Electron.

That confuses me too. The Maestro card can also act as a "sort of" 
credit card, but you are expected to clear it in full at the end of the 
month.

I found mine was hit and miss in a certain hotel, where a credit card 
would always work. The receptionist claimed that she had a lot of 
difficulty with Maestro cards from that particular bank. Go figure.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article <i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com>,
 Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> wrote:

> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
> but in principle it's similar over here.
> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> people mostly use debt orders, something which
> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> to remember.

The last Eurocheque I wrote would be in 1997, and I used it only because 
my UK bank had an inconveniently low limit per week I could withdraw 
cash at an ATM, and I needed to pay rent in Germany.

With my former bank (the one we don't talk about nowadays), they had 
excellent "Multimat" machines which I used to pay my bills. All bills 
here in Switzerland are laid out according to standards. Most bills have 
all the details filled in, all you need to do is insert you card, scan 
the bills in and confirm the total payment. Bills from small companies 
don't always have all te details filled in, so you tap them in on the 
machine's keyboard. With my local branch situated where it is, I had no 
need for internet banking - using the machine was just so incredibly 
simple, and gave me a printout of my transactions.

My current bank doesn't offer that facility so I simply take out cash 
and pay at my local post office. This is free.

One notable difference between here and the UK is that Post Office 
accounts are popular, and you can use your Post Office card to pay at 
many retail outlets. I understand that the popularity of these accounts 
was a major factor in getting the banks and Post Office together on 
defining standards.

-- 
Paul Sture

In article 
<f226419e-c6ff-4f5b-83da-b8c5a7b6eeb4@w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
 John Wallace <johnwallace4@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> ChrisJ and Steven have the situation about right.
> 
> It's not so much authorising individual cheques (though in theory the
> banks do check cheques for validity to some extent, on a sampled
> basis), more about (not) authorising non-cheque payments over the
> phone in the same way as a standard personal phone/internet banking
> account.
> 
> In the scenario being discussed, the organisation (company, voluntary
> group, whatever) has its bank account set up so as to require
> authorisation from two people before making a payment. The idea is
> that one of the signatories cannot run off with the money on their
> own, though obviously two co-conspirators could).
> 
> The "computer script" in this picture is the one which prompts the
> bank's call centre reps. Apparently the two reps I initially dealt
> with, who I asked a hypothetical question - can I do this - didn't
> realise that a two-signatory account couldn't make a payment over the
> phone, because that's only one person's authorisation (otherwise
> what's the point of having two signatories). When I actually tried to
> make a payment by phone, the script programmed into the computer
> correctly spots that it's a two-signatory account and therefore over-
> the-phone payments cannot be authorised.
> 
> It seems the CAF (Charities Aid Foundation) have a mechanism for
> handling this, but the organisations I'm involved with are low-
> turnover organisations where being a formally registered charity
> (which I *assume* the CAF bank requires, though it's not immediately
> 100% obvious) isn't really practical.
> 
> http://www.cafonline.org/default.aspx?page=6893

You've just reminded me of a service the domain name registrar for 
Switzerland offers. 

"A SWITCHguard domain name offers the holder of a domain name maximum 
security and protection against unintended changes. SWITCHguard offers 
you all the functions of a SWITCHbasic domain name, plus the following 
additional security features:

   *  Increased security through the allocation of up to five trusted 
third parties
   *  Additional checks on updates through a countercheck by at least 
one other person
   *  Additional security through the specification of an IP address 
range for the trusted third parties (optional)

If the holder or a third party submits a request for a SWITCHguard 
domain name, all the trusted third parties allocated to the domain name 
receive a confirmation request in their account. Requests relating to 
the domain name will only be executed when, in addition to the holder, 
at least half the trusted third parties have given their agreement. 
Without their agreement, no changes may be made to the domain name (e.g. 
a change of holder, deletion of the domain name or a change in the 
allocated name servers).

The trusted third parties can be persons from the company management or 
- in the private sphere - relatives, for example.

The option of restricting the IP address range is also offered. A 
specific IP address range can be defined for each individual trusted 
third party. The trusted third party must then log on from a computer in 
this IP address range for their confirmation to be accepted."

Sorry. I can't find a URL without session token. Try this:

https://www.switch.ch/en/

then enter "switchguard" in the search box, hit enter and pick the first 
result.

-- 
Paul Sture

On 2010-07-05 16:38, Paul Sture wrote:
> In article<i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com>,
>   Michael Kraemer<M.Kraemer@gsi.de>  wrote:
>
>> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
>> but in principle it's similar over here.
>> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
>> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
>> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
>> people mostly use debt orders, something which
>> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
>> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
>> to remember.
>
> The last Eurocheque I wrote would be in 1997, and I used it only because
> my UK bank had an inconveniently low limit per week I could withdraw
> cash at an ATM, and I needed to pay rent in Germany.
>
> With my former bank (the one we don't talk about nowadays), they had
> excellent "Multimat" machines which I used to pay my bills. All bills
> here in Switzerland are laid out according to standards. Most bills have
> all the details filled in, all you need to do is insert you card, scan
> the bills in and confirm the total payment. Bills from small companies
> don't always have all te details filled in, so you tap them in on the
> machine's keyboard. With my local branch situated where it is, I had no
> need for internet banking -...

Now, internet banking is not only about "paying the bills".

In my private internet-bank I have functions like :

- All kind of account info and listings (13 months back)
- Open a new account.
- Card admin (order a new card, activate a new card, enable/disable
   for intl payments and so on).
- Admin of payments and transfers ("wire-transfer").
- Buy/sell stock and founds and admin of my stock portfolio.
- Admin of my pension-founds.
- Admin of loans, request for a loan, loan-calculator.
- Some other minor functions such as a "mailbox" (where monthly
   account statements are sent).

In my business internet-bank there are some other additional
functions that are more business related.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> Yes, some *does* fall behind when bank offices puts fees on there
> office services or shortens the opening times but, as I see it,
> there is nothing stopping this now or turning time back.


And the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is the presence of
lots of gorgeous blonde females (such as Sweden), results is more rapid
adoption of electronic banking.  :-) :-) :-) :-)

Seriously though, "Star Trek" doesn't happen overnight. It is a
progression.  Telex is perhaps a good indication of how cheques will go.
It used to be the primary means of written "instant" communications,
used by Banks to transfer funds for instance. A large chunk was replaced
quickly by FAX and SWIFT. But for a long time, there remained some uses
of Telex that had not yet been replaced (for instance, some Banks in
less developped nations that couldn't get SWIFT, still relied on Telex
at a time when Telex had already begun to be dropped as a service
offering in western countries).

Consider bank drafts, certified cheques, traveler's cheques. Those are
cheques, they are simply drawn from a bank's account instead of from an
individual's account.

When I bought my server, it couldn't fit all in my credit card, so I had
to pay "cash". Bank offered a funds transfer to Apple for $30 of fees,
or a bank draft for $5. (but then I would have to pay courrier fees to
send the draft to Apple). Both options required I go to the bank branch.


Until the fee structure is reversed to make electronic transactions
cheaper than the legacy paper ones, it will hinder the move.

Banks tend to try to move the most common/simple operations to the web.
Some countries have a more liberal defintion of "common/simple" allowing
a greater type of operations that can be done on the web.


But as long as there will remain some uncommon operations, the
infrastructure to support them will still be needed.

The airline industry is one that succesfully had a "big bang" evolution
from the printed ticket to the electronic ticket. 1999 was the first
year where there was interlining with e-tickets. (airline A sells an
segment on airline B without a paper ticket). Before that, indicidual
airlines issued e-tickets for itineraries that involved only their own
flights.

June 2008 saw the official worldwide end of paper tickets. This had far
more to do with back office reconcialiation than with the traveller.
With paper tickets, the stub they collected at the gate had to go to a
huge operation that resulted in the money collected being officially
received by the airline (no longer a liability) and the commission
calculated and remitted to the travel agents. This was extremely costly
operation. Also, because blank paper tickets were like blank signed
cheques, travel agencies had to keep them in a safe at night.

The advent of electronic ticketing elikinated all fo that because ticket
reconciliation could finally be done inside a computer the minute you
checked-in. And with the IATA 2008 deadline, it also meant that all
airlines had to accept "e-tickets" from all airlines not only for
check-i, but for payment/reconcialiation purposes.

There are still a number of airlines who are paper-ticket based. Some
are mot IATA members so they do not participate in worldwide ticket
reconciliation (aka: airline A cannot sell a trip that involves airline
B), but some are. For those rare few cases where you still need a paper
ticket, they are handled on a "special case" basis and no longer a large
ticket reconciliation business.

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 17:17:09 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> In my private internet-bank I have functions like :

Interesting, but hardly unique. I too have almost all of these functions:

> - All kind of account info and listings (13 months back) - Open a new
> account.
> - Card admin (order a new card, activate a new card, enable/disable
>    for intl payments and so on).
> - Admin of payments and transfers ("wire-transfer"). - Buy/sell stock
> and founds and admin of my stock portfolio. - Admin of my
> pension-founds.
> - Admin of loans, request for a loan, loan-calculator. - Some other
> minor functions such as a "mailbox" (where monthly
>    account statements are sent).

I have never used it for stocks or pension funds as I would not be 
foolish enough to allow my bank (or most banks) to administer these.

However, there are still a few places where there is, as yet, no 
alternative to a cheque:
- paying my children's school small sums for school trips, etc.
- paying small amounts for an annual literary puzzle book (done on a
  volunteer basis by an individual)
- paying the post office for a post office box
- paying a subscription to a small private society
- paying my school alumni association
- paying the Court Service for a copy of a will
- paying my sons' music teachers and examiners
- paying a fee for a new driving licence
and so on. No doubt these will be addressed in time, but since cheques 
cost me nothing, and cost the recipients nothing if they are private 
individuals, I see no reason to moan about waht is a fast, efficient 
service.
-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:50:00 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> 
>> Yes, some *does* fall behind when bank offices puts fees on there
>> office services or shortens the opening times but, as I see it, there
>> is nothing stopping this now or turning time back.
> 
> 
> And the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is the presence of
> lots of gorgeous blonde females (such as Sweden), results is more rapid
> adoption of electronic banking.  :-) :-) :-) :-)

Of course (slaps head)....that's what it is! .-)

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message 
news:4c31e605$0$21230$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:
>
>> Yes, but the system is well established, and all the NRE has
>> been paid for.
>
> Cheque sorting equipment is expensive to operate and maintain. Consider
> a paper jam for a photocopier. Now, consider something that operates at
> least 100 times faster and have many many possible output slots.
>

Now you are just grasping at straws to attempt to "prove" your point. 

On 2010-07-05 18:18, Bob Eager wrote:

> - paying small amounts for an annual literary puzzle book (done on a
>    volunteer basis by an individual)

Cash or direct account-to-account transfer.

> - paying the post office for a post office box

The Post Office would simply bill me the annual fee just
as they do with all other post related fees.

> - paying my children's school small sums for school trips, etc.
> - paying a subscription to a small private society
> - paying my school alumni association
> - paying the Court Service for a copy of a will
> - paying my sons' music teachers and examiners
> - paying a fee for a new driving licence

Al those would be large enough to have opened a "giro"
to pay to. Like the giro numbers I have

Bankgiro : 5536-2230
Plusgiro : 401252-2

My local astronomy club (10-15 members incl me, if I'm not wrong)
have it's own giro-number for the yearly member fee ($20).
The club web-page simply says "To become a member, pay the
member fee to postgiro account 23 06 54-6". Simple as that...
Our club-economic responsable would *wildly* refuse a check, it
would take him way to much time to clear them...

"Paul Sture" <paul.nospam@sture.ch> wrote in message 
news:paul.nospam-92F855.15592105072010@pbook.sture.ch...
> In article <i0q2so$1r2$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>,
> "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com> wrote:
>
>> It costs me nothing to write a check.  All banks take them.  Generally
>> speaking neither party gets charged a check clearing fee.  I can go to my
>> bank online and examine a scanned image of the check (allowing me to 
>> prove
>> that I did or didn't write/sign it).
>>
>> I recently stopped paying my water bill to the city by electronic means 
>> and
>> returned to sending them a check by mail - because the city wanted to 
>> charge
>> me $2 to do it electronically.  Talk about stupid.
>
> Does it cost businesses for paying in or writing cheques? The way it
> used to work in the UK was that most private accounts were free (subject
> to either a minimum balance or staying within an agreed overdraft limit)
> but business accounts weren't.
>

Everything costs everyone something.  According to an article in the paper 
this AM a checking account costs the bank an average of $300/yr in costs to 
them.  A cost they were willing to pick up (i.e. "free checking") since they 
typically made up more than that from the customer in other ways.  A check 
to *me* is nearly free (I pay shipping on a box of them, and if it's a 
mailed check to someone - the cost of the stamp).  The cost to Joe-Blow or 
Joe-Small-Business is "free" in that they just deposit it.  The only nasty 
costs would come in the form of a overdraft or bounced check.

For a large retail operation that mails bills and has them returned with 
checks - there is a processing cost to open the mail and process the check 
for deposit.  For the banks there is the cost of processing and clearing it.

But at least here in the US - it is how the majority of people pay their 
bills.  A bill comes via the US mail service, you write a check and return 
it in the suppplied envelope that came with the bill.  Each business has its 
own individual "online" method that they would like you to use - but there 
isn't much of an incentive to.  You can also setup online bill payer 
services with most banks.

I have an old remnant of some HP stock that somehow is outside of the rest 
of the stock I own.  Every quarter, they send me a dividend check for 
exactly 16 cents.  Now that is funny.  The total cost to everyone from HP to 
me to the bank has to be a couple bucks.  It would cost me more to mail the 
check for deposit than to toss it in the trash (I bundle it into other mail 
deposits - or I would simply toss it).

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message 
news:4c32034a$0$21266$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
>
>
> The airline industry is one that succesfully had a "big bang" evolution
> from the printed ticket to the electronic ticket.

But unlike this discussion, it has little material impact on the consumer. 
It just means that no matter how they purchased the ticket there is no need 
to actually have the "paper" ticket in-hand until they arrive for departure. 
Airline passengers are not "forced" to purchase their tickets online.

If anything, it simplified life for the air traveler.  Getting rid of checks 
would not simplify anything for the consumer - it just takes one more tool 
away from them.

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0t44a$uve$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-05 18:18, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>> - paying small amounts for an annual literary puzzle book (done on a
>>    volunteer basis by an individual)
>
> Cash or direct account-to-account transfer.
>
>> - paying the post office for a post office box
>
> The Post Office would simply bill me the annual fee just
> as they do with all other post related fees.
>

Your concept of a post office, and the US concept differ greatly.  I pay no 
"annual fee" for the post office.  I pay for services if and when I use 
them.  Most people use it to actually send mail.

FredK wrote:

> Everything costs everyone something.  According to an article in the paper 
> this AM a checking account costs the bank an average of $300/yr in costs to 
> them.

So, my argument about the costs of cheque processing isn't so "last
straw" after all, is it ?

In canada they charge something like $40 to get cheques printed (which
probably costs them just a couple dollars. Also, the banks here charge
for widthdrawals (unless you pay a monthly fee that gives you a certain
number of free widthdrawals. So I am pretty confident that they still
make profit out of customers.

There are still accounts where you get the actual original cheque back.
The newer accounts do provide just an image of the cheque. But this
means that check processing/clearing/sorting is still done the old
fashioned way, and there there is still a human that needs to READ the
cheque and type in the amount to be added to the MICR encoding prior to
the cheque going to the sorting machine. (If your cancelled check
electronic images have MICR encoding to the right that includes the
amount for the cheque, it means that a human added it in very early in
the process).

If the processing of cheques is on a sufficiently fast negative growth,
it may not be worth the investment to change all that stuff.

I know that the scanning of films is done mostly to reduce archival
costs. In the past, every cheque was microfilmed before being sent back
to customer. Disk space was too expensive to store those. That has
obviously changed where disk space is now much cheaper than
microfilming. And once they have the images on disk, it is then cheaper
to print them instead of having to do proper sorting of cancelled
cheques so that a bunch can be inserted with a customer's monthly statement.

Having your own cancelled cheques available in electronic form does not
mean that they become electronic at the point of deposit. They could
become electronic at your bank's processing centre.

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 at 20:06 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> ... excessive feels ...

What a concept!  ;-)


-- 

Rob Brown                        b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd.      (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton                         (780)437-3367 (FAX)
                                  http://gmcl.com/

In the U.S. banks typically charge from $15.00 to $45.00 for electronic 
transfers.  Most will allow incoming transfers for free and encourage 
electronic pay deposit.

SMS service would cost me $.35 cents per message incoming or outgoing, 
so I after finding bills for some on my phone, I now have them blocked. 
  The alternative is to pay at least $10.00/phone more for some limited 
number of pre-paid SMS units, or significantly more for a higher limit.

I will not sign up for Paypal because when I started to sign up for them 
some years back, they required me to accept an agreement where they 
could remove any amount of money from my bank account, with out limit, 
and that I would waive my rights to dispute charges.  (That is a 
translation of the legalize then on the aggreement)  I stopped the 
signup at that point and canceled the account.  It then took over three 
months to get them and their affiliates to stop spamming me, as none of 
the mandatory role e-mail addresses for paypal appeared to be functioning.

Right now, the only expenses for me to use paper checks is the cost of 
printing them, and the postage for mailing them.

To avoid postage costs, I do use some online bill payments, but there 
are still some companies that charge a "convenience fee" for this or 
have not set up any service for this.

And at least in the U.S. the only people that have to pay to get checks 
cashed are people with out any bank accounts at all, or people who do 
not know to use a bank that actually wants their business.

I am quite annoyed at the U.S. IRS E-file, where to use it I have to pay 
  about $20.00 U.S. as they will only accept e-file from a limited 
number of commercial entities.

Last year, all the TAX software vendors dropped the version of their 
software that did not include E-FILE, and instead put a notice that it 
was now included "FREE".  Except that their cheapest software package 
was now $20.00 more than the previous year.

-John
wb8tyw@qsl.network
Personal Opinion Only

JF Mezei wrote:
> FredK wrote:
> 
>> Everything costs everyone something.  According to an article in the paper 
>> this AM a checking account costs the bank an average of $300/yr in costs to 
>> them.
> 
> So, my argument about the costs of cheque processing isn't so "last
> straw" after all, is it ?
> 
> In canada they charge something like $40 to get cheques printed (which
> probably costs them just a couple dollars. Also, the banks here charge
> for widthdrawals (unless you pay a monthly fee that gives you a certain
> number of free widthdrawals. So I am pretty confident that they still
> make profit out of customers.

The typical consumer's order for checks quantity 500.  That's "short run 
printing".  A business purchasing say, 10,000 checks pays a lot less per 
check because the "setup cost" is amortized over a great many more checks.

I used to work for a company that did short run printing; checks, 
stationery, business cards, etc.  The cost of paper and ink is a tiny 
fraction of the cost of taking the order, making the plates and setting 
up the press!

Anyway, if you write enough checks to justify it, inquire about how the 
cost per check varies with the quantity ordered.  You might just save 
your self some money.

As for the costs to the bank, they have your money and pay no interest 
on it.  If you carry a large balance, you may be able to get a better 
deal on fees, the price of checks, etc.

In article <4c32034a$0$21266$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>,
 JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> When I bought my server, it couldn't fit all in my credit card, so I had
> to pay "cash". Bank offered a funds transfer to Apple for $30 of fees,
> or a bank draft for $5. (but then I would have to pay courrier fees to
> send the draft to Apple). Both options required I go to the bank branch. 
> 
> Until the fee structure is reversed to make electronic transactions
> cheaper than the legacy paper ones, it will hinder the move.

Fortunately I live close enough to an Apple dealer that if I were in the 
market for a server, I would buy a probably get it from them, and ask 
them for a paying in slip. If I were going for a Max Mini or iMac I'd 
simply pay cash.

Cash is still used a lot here in Switzerland. It is still perfectly 
possible to live without a credit card. The last time I looked it was 
over USD 100 per year.

They have now introduced "pay up front" credit cards which I ought to 
look at. If I understand them correctly, your credit limit is what you 
have paid in, so you can vary it according to your needs, and reduce the 
impact of any credit card fraud. This sounds ideal for internet 
purchases, and much preferable to using Paypal.

For the record, I've been repeatedly warned to steer clear of PayPal in 
Switzerland.

-- 
Paul Sture

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 19:17:37 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> On 2010-07-05 18:18, Bob Eager wrote:
> 
>> - paying small amounts for an annual literary puzzle book (done on a
>>    volunteer basis by an individual)
> 
> Cash or direct account-to-account transfer.

It's by post. I'm not sending cash, and he doesn't want his personal bank 
account involved with the separate funds.

>> - paying the post office for a post office box
> 
> The Post Office would simply bill me the annual fee just as they do with
> all other post related fees.

They send me a bill - I have to pay it. Cheque is the only real method, 
I'm not a company.

>> - paying my children's school small sums for school trips, etc. -
>> paying a subscription to a small private society - paying my school
>> alumni association - paying the Court Service for a copy of a will -
>> paying my sons' music teachers and examiners - paying a fee for a new
>> driving licence
> 
> Al those would be large enough to have opened a "giro" to pay to. Like
> the giro numbers I have
> 
> Bankgiro : 5536-2230
> Plusgiro : 401252-2

They don't. Most schools don't. That would mean a separate bank account, 
and cost them money they could ill afford for such activities.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 2010-07-05 19:44, FredK wrote:
> "Jan-Erik Soderholm"<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com>  wrote in message
> news:i0t44a$uve$1@news.albasani.net...
>> On 2010-07-05 18:18, Bob Eager wrote:
>>
>>> - paying small amounts for an annual literary puzzle book (done on a
>>>     volunteer basis by an individual)
>>
>> Cash or direct account-to-account transfer.
>>
>>> - paying the post office for a post office box
>>
>> The Post Office would simply bill me the annual fee just
>> as they do with all other post related fees.
>>
>
> Your concept of a post office, and the US concept differ greatly.  I pay no
> "annual fee" for the post office.  I pay for services if and when I use
> them.  Most people use it to actually send mail.
>
>
>

My "Post Office" is the swedish equivalent of USPS. And no, there
is no fixed fee to "use" them.

What I ment is that, for any post sent from my business, I
stamp the letters "Postage Payed" and hand them over the counter
at the local Post Office. They then count and weight them and put
it on a form that is sent to some central place once a month and
I get a bill for all my postags used. Easy. I do not have to
keep stamps around and I get a small discount on the postage.

Now *if* I had a post box I would be *billed* that cost also.

They would *never* accept a (paper) check ! I bet my local
Post office hasn't even seen a paper check in 10-20 years now...

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:51:12 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> My "Post Office" is the swedish equivalent of USPS. And no, there is no
> fixed fee to "use" them.
> 
> What I ment is that, for any post sent from my business, I stamp the
> letters "Postage Payed" and hand them over the counter at the local Post
> Office. They then count and weight them and put it on a form that is
> sent to some central place once a month and I get a bill for all my
> postags used. Easy. I do not have to keep stamps around and I get a
> small discount on the postage.
> 
> Now *if* I had a post box I would be *billed* that cost also.

I'm a private individual, but I pay for a PO box. They give me no other 
way of paying.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Enough...

If you have all these checks/cheques, please send a few to me preferably
with large draft amounts so I can pay legal bills and buy prescriptions.

Thanks.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On 2010-07-05 19:29, FredK wrote:

> For a large retail operation that mails bills and has them returned with
> checks - there is a processing cost to open the mail and process the check
> for deposit.  For the banks there is the cost of processing and clearing it.
>
> But at least here in the US - it is how the majority of people pay their
> bills.

And *that* is what I found very hard to belive. Are we talking about 2010 ?

> A bill comes via the US mail service, you write a check and return
> it in the suppplied envelope that came with the bill.

That sounds mostly as a bad joke... :-)

Would they not prefer to get a file daily from there bank with payments
that they could match against the outstanding bills automaticly ?
And you are actualy saying that someone i sitting there opening
letters with paper checks ? :-)

On 2010-07-05 21:53, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:51:12 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>
>> My "Post Office" is the swedish equivalent of USPS. And no, there is no
>> fixed fee to "use" them.
>>
>> What I ment is that, for any post sent from my business, I stamp the
>> letters "Postage Payed" and hand them over the counter at the local Post
>> Office. They then count and weight them and put it on a form that is
>> sent to some central place once a month and I get a bill for all my
>> postags used. Easy. I do not have to keep stamps around and I get a
>> small discount on the postage.
>>
>> Now *if* I had a post box I would be *billed* that cost also.
>
> I'm a private individual, but I pay for a PO box. They give me no other
> way of paying.
>

Not your direct fault, of course.
It's a *way* old payment and banking system.

On 2010-07-05 21:59, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> Enough...
>
> If you have all these checks/cheques, please send a few to me preferably
> with large draft amounts so I can pay legal bills and buy prescriptions.
>
> Thanks.
>
>

Oh, right. We do not need large draft amounts for that, since there
is a maximum yearly cost for medicin over here (aprox $200 USD).
But that is another matter... :-)

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:02:29 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

> On 2010-07-05 21:53, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 21:51:12 +0200, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>>
>>> My "Post Office" is the swedish equivalent of USPS. And no, there is
>>> no fixed fee to "use" them.
>>>
>>> What I ment is that, for any post sent from my business, I stamp the
>>> letters "Postage Payed" and hand them over the counter at the local
>>> Post Office. They then count and weight them and put it on a form that
>>> is sent to some central place once a month and I get a bill for all my
>>> postags used. Easy. I do not have to keep stamps around and I get a
>>> small discount on the postage.
>>>
>>> Now *if* I had a post box I would be *billed* that cost also.
>>
>> I'm a private individual, but I pay for a PO box. They give me no other
>> way of paying.
>>
>>
> Not your direct fault, of course.
> It's a *way* old payment and banking system.

So you keep saying. What a perfect country you live in....

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article <paul.nospam-5404E4.16061605072010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul
Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes: 

> In article <i0rr57$6d0$2@online.de>,
>  helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) 
>  wrote:
> 
> > To further confuse 
> > things, the de-facto successor to the Eurocheque are Maestro/Cirrus and 
> > Delta/Electron, which are operated by Mastercard and Visa respectively.
> > Extra points for understanding the difference between Maestro and Cirrus 
> > or between Delta and Electron.
> 
> That confuses me too. The Maestro card can also act as a "sort of" 
> credit card, but you are expected to clear it in full at the end of the 
> month.

This is an additional complication.  Apart from credit cards (minimum
payment, the rest is a loan with interest, hence "credit" card) and
debit cards (gets deducted right away from your account), there are also
charge cards (pay in full at the end of the month).  Historically, the
first cards (Diner's Club and American Express) were like this: the idea
wasn't credit, but rather convenience, so it was no problem to pay off
in full.  Rich people don't pay with credit cards because they need to
spend more than they have; they do it for convenience.  Some vendors
take a middle ground between debit and credit, because they trust the
customer to pay it in full within a month, but not enough to give them
longer-term credit: in practice, this looks like the
charge-card-for-the-rich, but the reasons behind it are different.

More places accept Maestro/EC/whatever than credit cards.  Some
credit-card companies issue an "EC card" which is accepted at these 
places, but is otherwise like a credit card (i.e. the charges are lumped 
in with the charges from real credit cards, subject to the minimum 
monthly payment).

In article <paul.nospam-F6AA05.20585605072010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul
Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes: 

> Cash is still used a lot here in Switzerland. 

Especially that smuggled across the border in briefcases.  :-)

> It is still perfectly 
> possible to live without a credit card. The last time I looked it was 
> over USD 100 per year.

Sounds expensive.

> They have now introduced "pay up front" credit cards which I ought to 
> look at. If I understand them correctly, your credit limit is what you 
> have paid in, so you can vary it according to your needs, and reduce the 
> impact of any credit card fraud. This sounds ideal for internet 
> purchases, and much preferable to using Paypal.

In essence, you are giving the credit-card company an interest-free
loan.  As for Paypal, it is possible to pay via PayPal without having a 
PayPal account.

In article <i0tdlf$f48$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> Would they not prefer to get a file daily from there bank with payments
> that they could match against the outstanding bills automaticly ?
> And you are actualy saying that someone i sitting there opening
> letters with paper checks ? :-)

Yes.

"JF Mezei" <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> wrote in message 
news:4c321d3c$0$21236$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> FredK wrote:
>
>> Everything costs everyone something.  According to an article in the 
>> paper
>> this AM a checking account costs the bank an average of $300/yr in costs 
>> to
>> them.

Like you, they are throwing everything including the kitchen sink into 
arriving at a number that supports their argument.  That is, the $300 figure 
is likely an inflated value. 

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i0tdlf$f48$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-05 19:29, FredK wrote:
>
>> For a large retail operation that mails bills and has them returned with
>> checks - there is a processing cost to open the mail and process the 
>> check
>> for deposit.  For the banks there is the cost of processing and clearing 
>> it.
>>
>> But at least here in the US - it is how the majority of people pay their
>> bills.
>
> And *that* is what I found very hard to belive. Are we talking about 2010 
> ?
>

Yup.

>> A bill comes via the US mail service, you write a check and return
>> it in the suppplied envelope that came with the bill.
>
> That sounds mostly as a bad joke... :-)
>

Nope.  And we like it.


> Would they not prefer to get a file daily from there bank with payments
> that they could match against the outstanding bills automaticly ?

Nope.  Again, you are under the mistaken notion that everyone has a computer 
and broadband access.  Frankly, I just wrote the mortgage check today and 
stuck it in the envelope to mail in the morning.  No muss, no fuss.  The 
only connection between that mortgage payment and my bank will be the record 
of the check being cashed.  And that is the way that I want it.


> And you are actualy saying that someone i sitting there opening
> letters with paper checks ? :-)
>

Yup.  But most stuff is largely done by machine.  Actual people only get 
involved when the machines can't decipher something.

"John E. Malmberg" <wb8tyw@qsl.network> wrote in message 
news:8OWdnd9KTqBEuK_RnZ2dnUVZ_q2dnZ2d@mchsi.com...
> In the U.S. banks typically charge from $15.00 to $45.00 for electronic 
> transfers.  Most will allow incoming transfers for free and encourage 
> electronic pay deposit.
>
I was just charged a $10 fee from my bank to have my cash out from a 
re-finance of my mortgage wired to my account to eliminate having a large 
check in the house until we could get to the bank to deposit it.  A fee I 
was surprised by, but checking all the agreements, is standard.

Once again, the banks here seem to want people to use checks as opposed to 
electronic transfers. 

Paul Sture wrote:

> Fortunately I live close enough to an Apple dealer that if I were in the 
> market for a server, I would buy a probably get it from them, 

The Apple places of worship (at least the ones in Canada) do not accept
orders/payment for Xserves. Orders have to be placed on the web or by
phone (separate department catering to business customers) and payment
by credit card, certified cheque or bank transfers. The later 2 cases
involved the order being put on hold pending reception of payment, so
the wire transfer is MUCH faster than cheque.


> Cash is still used a lot here in Switzerland. 

And there I was, thiking Swiss people paid in gold bullion. I've seen a
number of documentaries over time where people had their cars loaded up
with gold bars, figured it was common practice in Switzerland :-)


> For the record, I've been repeatedly warned to steer clear of PayPal in 
> Switzerland.


I only setup my bank account with paypal when I need to have money in
paypall sent to me. Otherwise, I zap that field, and only keep the
credit card field entered.

When I had fraud done on my credit card a few weeks ago, my bank told me
Paypal was quite safe and not to suspect them. Turns out it was likely a
FedEx employee. On the weekend following my callin FedEx to update my
credit card info (newly issued card), someone in europe maxed out my
card with : FedEx transactions. The transactions used the new expiry
date and they had not attempted transaction with another expiry date.
And I had only updated 3 places that have my credit card info.

Back on topic, I was susprised to hear the bank tell me not to fear
Paypal and that they were now as safe as a bank.

In terms of signing your right to all your money, I suspect anyone
getting an Amex card would also have to sign similar words. Perhaps
Paypal should introduce a profile setting for maximum amount of
transaction value in a month. That would reduce risk of Paypal  emptying
you bank account.

Note that if you have paypal debit your credit card, you then have the
advantages of the protection offered by the credit card.

Bob Eager wrote:

> I'm a private individual, but I pay for a PO box. They give me no other 
> way of paying.

The post offices in Canada accept  Interac (direct debit from ATM card),
credit card and cash. Doubt they would accept cheque, unless it is
certified.

Interac has limited access on the internet, with some banks supporting
it (it involves convoluted web stuff because the transactiuon is done
with the bank, and the bank then confirms payment to the store. This is
so the store doesn't see your card number and pin.

What I find most convenient at Canada Post, and USPS also has that, is
the ability to create waybills for your shipments on-line and pay by
credit card. You choose level of service, package weight and dimensions,
you get the various shipping options for that type of package and
destination, choose, and voila. You get you waybill in PDF form which
you stick to the shipment and just drop it at a post office counter
(usually a pharmacy). They scan it to accept delivery.  No ackward
filling of forms with terrible handwriting !

I bought myself a electronic scale to get fairly precise weight of
packages and that has helped a lot. When sending overseas, you can test
various scenarios and know how much to cut in the shipment to get it
under the limit above shich it costs a lot more.

Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

>> A bill comes via the US mail service, you write a check and return
>> it in the suppplied envelope that came with the bill.
> 
> That sounds mostly as a bad joke... :-)


Heck, Bell Canada stopped using punched cards as "payment stub" in the
1980s. Went with MICR encoded "cheque format" payment stubs. Goes
through the same machines as cheques excepts it credits the Bell Canada
account.

Utilities still use this format for bills, since the stub is still
required if paying bill at an ATM or bank counter. But payment via
on-line banking or telephone banking avoids that hassle because you
pre-program your utility's account number so that utilities know that a
payment is to be made to your account when they get the transaction from
the bank.

However, in this day and age, even those transaction take a number of
days to get processed. Suspect the banks like to hold on to your money
for a few days and they have no motivation to make payments work overnight.

FredK wrote:

> Like you, they are throwing everything including the kitchen sink into 
> arriving at a number that supports their argument.  That is, the $300 figure 
> is likely an inflated value. 

Likely inflated. However, bear in mind that if cheque volume is going
down, they would still have infrastructure to support greater cheque
processing volumes, so the cost per cheque would rise (especially if
maintenance costs increase).

Banks are in business to make money, so you'll never see them brag about
 some new service that costs less. Like many large corporations, instead
of lowering prices on a product/service, they generally wait for a new
one to come out, at which point they come out with new pricing.

My guess is that lowering prices on existsing services would not be
something that shareholders would like.

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 22:18:41 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> Heck, Bell Canada stopped using punched cards as "payment stub" in the
> 1980s. Went with MICR encoded "cheque format" payment stubs. Goes
> through the same machines as cheques excepts it credits the Bell Canada
> account.
> 
> Utilities still use this format for bills, since the stub is still
> required if paying bill at an ATM or bank counter. But payment via
> on-line banking or telephone banking avoids that hassle because you
> pre-program your utility's account number so that utilities know that a
> payment is to be made to your account when they get the transaction from
> the bank.
> 
> However, in this day and age, even those transaction take a number of
> days to get processed. Suspect the banks like to hold on to your money
> for a few days and they have no motivation to make payments work
> overnight.

In the UK, nost of the electronic payments are actually processed on the 
same day.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article <i0tjg2$dg6$4@online.de>,
 helbig@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) 
 wrote:

> In article <paul.nospam-F6AA05.20585605072010@pbook.sture.ch>, Paul
> Sture <paul.nospam@sture.ch> writes: 
> 
> > It is still perfectly 
> > possible to live without a credit card. The last time I looked it was 
> > over USD 100 per year.
> 
> Sounds expensive.

And why a lot of people don't bother with credit cards. They are on 
becoming more popular, with various chain stores offering their own brand.

> > They have now introduced "pay up front" credit cards which I ought to 
> > look at. If I understand them correctly, your credit limit is what you 
> > have paid in, so you can vary it according to your needs, and reduce the 
> > impact of any credit card fraud. This sounds ideal for internet 
> > purchases, and much preferable to using Paypal.
> 
> In essence, you are giving the credit-card company an interest-free
> loan.

At the low interest rates banks pay you here, it's not much of an issue.
They are of course useful for those who aren't eligible for a normal
credit card. 

> As for Paypal, it is possible to pay via PayPal without having a 
> PayPal account.

There are concerns on the consumer protection side of things. The last 
time I looked, the Terms and Conditions referred to Singapore law.

-- 
Paul Sture

On Mon, 5 Jul 2010, Paul Sture wrote:

> Cash is still used a lot here in Switzerland. It is still perfectly 
> possible to live without a credit card.

Yes, in fact I use mine rather seldom.

I got my first one in the UK in early '80s and never used it as such, 
but only as guarantee to cheques when paying my plane tickets back home.

I got one in my country at the end of the '80s essentially because I was 
having a business trip to the US and there it was "required". At the 
time credit card payments (now, I suppose the cards used here are what 
Philip Helbig will call "charge card" ... I will avoid the "revolving" 
ones as plague) occurred about two months later than the expense, and 
the high interests on one's bank account on the non-spent sum was enough 
to cover the credit card fee. Later the government put a tax on credit 
cards (considered sort of luxury items), and I gave it back.

I resumed having one much later, and again mainly because I can use for 
payments abroad. There is no tax any more, the fees are variable (in 
some case forfeited), but there is a 1 euro fee on monthly statements if 
the credit card is used that month (the payment now occurs just after 
the end of the month the expense occurred ... and interests on bank 
accounts are virtually nil).

So I tend not to use the credit card as such, but as a debit card 
(physically it's the same card). I do use it as debit card, typically 
when I buy something which costs more than 100 euro and less than 500 
and that I pick up immediately, but also for instance to pay smaller 
sums like medical care "tickets" (which here cannot exceed 36 euro, and 
usually are odd sums like 9.71 or 19.72 ... it saves the clerk the fuss 
about change).

I do use it as credit card for rare, selected and reliable Internet 
buys, or when I give a deposit for something which costs several 100's 
euros and will be delivered later (say a new fridge or TV), or to pay an 
advance for a travel trip which will occurs 1-2 months later. Or for 
medium amount payments above the daily ceiling for the debit card 
function.

But usually the final settlement of a trip is either above the monthly 
ceiling for the credit card, or a significant fraction of it, so I pay 
by cheque (and keep the ceiling available in case of emergencies while 
abroad).

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

Paul Sture wrote:

>> In essence, you are giving the credit-card company an interest-free
>> loan.
> 
> At the low interest rates banks pay you here, it's not much of an issue.
> They are of course useful for those who aren't eligible for a normal
> credit card.



It also depends on how easy and convenient it is to add money to the
prepaid credit card. If it is free and "instant" (via internet or
telephone banking), then you can add money to it before going shopping.
This way, you dont have cash tied up for long periods in the prepaid
credit card.

On the other hand, if you must pay a large fee to recharge the card, or
it it takes a week for a transfer, then they want you to load it up with
lots of money which they keep until you spend it.

Again, banks are in business to make money, and they will want to
structure their offerings to get the maximum amount of fees and free
cash from you. (remember that with the cash you deposit in your account,
the banks get to play very profitable games on the various
markets^H^H^H^H^H^H casinos).

On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:59:44 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> It also depends on how easy and convenient it is to add money to the
> prepaid credit card. If it is free and "instant" (via internet or
> telephone banking), then you can add money to it before going shopping.
> This way, you dont have cash tied up for long periods in the prepaid
> credit card.

I use one for specific purposes (dealing with vendors I am not sure 
about). It can be loaded instantly via the website, and the load fee is a 
fixed percentage (about 4% I think). To me that is a fair fee, as 
essentially it's an insurance premium.



-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Jul 5, 10:17=A0am, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-05 16:38, Paul Sture wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article<i0q864$n57$0...@news.t-online.com>,
> > =A0 Michael Kraemer<M.Krae...@gsi.de> =A0wrote:
>
> >> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
> >> but in principle it's similar over here.
> >> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
> >> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
> >> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> >> people mostly use debt orders, something which
> >> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> >> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> >> to remember.
>
> > The last Eurocheque I wrote would be in 1997, and I used it only becaus=
e
> > my UK bank had an inconveniently low limit per week I could withdraw
> > cash at an ATM, and I needed to pay rent in Germany.
>
> > With my former bank (the one we don't talk about nowadays), they had
> > excellent "Multimat" machines which I used to pay my bills. All bills
> > here in Switzerland are laid out according to standards. Most bills hav=
e
> > all the details filled in, all you need to do is insert you card, scan
> > the bills in and confirm the total payment. Bills from small companies
> > don't always have all te details filled in, so you tap them in on the
> > machine's keyboard. With my local branch situated where it is, I had no
> > need for internet banking -...
>
> Now, internet banking is not only about "paying the bills".
>
> In my private internet-bank I have functions like :
> ...
>
> In my business internet-bank there are some other additional
> functions that are more business related.

Jan, all of the great paperless functions you talk about *are*
available in the USA. Just not all banks offer them and some that do
charge a fee for some of the services.

Didn't Sweden nationalize their banks during their crisis sometime
back in the 1990's? If all banks in a country have one common owner,
and that owner is the government, banking is much easier to streamline
and control. In the USA, which stands for the United _States_ of
America, there are both Federal and State regulations that banks must
follow, and there are thousands of privately and publicly owned banks
and credit unions of all sizes competing for the money.

When other countries try to compare themselves to the US, they seem to
forget the size, diversity and organization of the US. When other
countries compare themselves to the US, they are comparing themselves
to a republic of over 309,000,000 people with 3,794,101 square miles
divided into 50 individual states (plus DC & territories) across 7
time zones (8 counting Samoan).

It is about 2,500 miles from NY to LA. Draw a line 2,500 miles from
where you live to get a perspective. Shade in an area of 3,794,101
square miles around that line, sprinkle in around 310 million people
of every ethnicity, national origin, political and religious
orientation on earth; divide it up onto 50 separate smaller states
with individual governments and laws. Add to that a founding principal
of state and individual rights and freedom and maybe you'll get a
better understanding of the USA.

"Doug Phillips" <dphill46@netscape.net> wrote in message 
news:4681e3a2-c138-492e-a93b-594d90200e58@g19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

States in the US are a lot like European Countries.  Sometimes even the 
language is different :-)

On 2010-07-06 21:58, Doug Phillips wrote:
> On Jul 5, 10:17 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2010-07-05 16:38, Paul Sture wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> In article<i0q864$n57$0...@news.t-online.com>,
>>>    Michael Kraemer<M.Krae...@gsi.de>    wrote:
>>
>>>> Although Germany is probably not quite as advanced as Sweden,
>>>> but in principle it's similar over here.
>>>> Either cash or some form of electronic transfer.
>>>> The last (Euro)cheque I wrote maybe 20 years ago.
>>>> For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
>>>> people mostly use debt orders, something which
>>>> might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
>>>> But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
>>>> to remember.
>>
>>> The last Eurocheque I wrote would be in 1997, and I used it only because
>>> my UK bank had an inconveniently low limit per week I could withdraw
>>> cash at an ATM, and I needed to pay rent in Germany.
>>
>>> With my former bank (the one we don't talk about nowadays), they had
>>> excellent "Multimat" machines which I used to pay my bills. All bills
>>> here in Switzerland are laid out according to standards. Most bills have
>>> all the details filled in, all you need to do is insert you card, scan
>>> the bills in and confirm the total payment. Bills from small companies
>>> don't always have all te details filled in, so you tap them in on the
>>> machine's keyboard. With my local branch situated where it is, I had no
>>> need for internet banking -...
>>
>> Now, internet banking is not only about "paying the bills".
>>
>> In my private internet-bank I have functions like :
>> ...
>>
>> In my business internet-bank there are some other additional
>> functions that are more business related.
>
> Jan, all of the great paperless functions you talk about *are*
> available in the USA. Just not all banks offer them and some that do
> charge a fee for some of the services.
>
> Didn't Sweden nationalize their banks during their crisis sometime
> back in the 1990's?

No. Sweden did what the US did with a number of banks that had
similar "problems" reasently.

> If all banks in a country have one common owner,

There are 5-6 major banks with different (private) owners.
*One* of them have an aprox 50% ownership by the state.
Then there are a number of "nich" banks, most of them with
office-less, internet-only operations (and lower costs to
the customer).

> and that owner is the government, banking is much easier to streamline
> and control.

That is not the major driving force, it's the fact that we
(mainly thanks to the "Home-PC" law) now have a PC with
internet connection in more-or-less every home. That have
driven the fast and widespread on-line banking.

> In the USA, which stands for the United _States_ of
> America, there are both Federal and State regulations that banks must
> follow, and there are thousands of privately and publicly owned banks
> and credit unions of all sizes competing for the money.

Correct, the fact that your state has lesser control might be why
the US is "behind" in some ways, such as internet-banking.

>
> When other countries try to compare themselves to the US, they seem to
> forget the size, diversity and organization of the US. When other
> countries compare themselves to the US, they are comparing themselves
> to a republic of over 309,000,000 people with 3,794,101 square miles
> divided into 50 individual states (plus DC&  territories) across 7
> time zones (8 counting Samoan).
>
> It is about 2,500 miles from NY to LA.

Yes, I know. Sweden is 1.500 miles from south to north with
aprox 9 million people. But it is not relevant.

> Draw a line 2,500 miles from
> where you live to get a perspective. Shade in an area of 3,794,101
> square miles around that line, sprinkle in around 310 million people
> of every ethnicity, national origin, political and religious
> orientation on earth; divide it up onto 50 separate smaller states
> with individual governments and laws. Add to that a founding principal
> of state and individual rights and freedom and maybe you'll get a
> better understanding of the USA.

Now, *I* was discussion the US bank and payment system. Nothing else.

On Jun 30, 5:01=A0pm, Steven Schweda <sms.antin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > And, again, what does that have to do with Windows?
>
> =A0 =A0And what does any of this have to do with the original
> question? =A0Perhaps the smartest thing the original poster did
> was not to mention that he was using Windows, any mention of
> which here seems to trigger a never-ending avalanche of
> pointless "Windows b-a-a-a-a-d" bleating, and comparably
> fervent counter-bleating.
>
> =A0 =A0What has noise like this contributed to the usefulness of
> this forum? =A0Or was a useful VMS forum never the goal?

Now we're on checks. Be happy we were on computers before (which _did_
include an occasional reference to VMS). What's next? More QM? Heat
death of the universe? Calamity in 2012? Discovery of the Higgs boson?
Stimulus money for the International Space Station? The spread of
apostrophe disease? Past-participle disease? Neutrinos bombarding
Mars? Dark energy? Alien bigfoots eating vanilla ice cream in a
Saturnian Ammonia Storm? Movie leader? More Star Trek? Classical
music?

AEF

Alan Feldman wrote:
> What's next? More QM? Heat
> death of the universe? Calamity in 2012? Discovery of the Higgs boson?
> Stimulus money for the International Space Station? The spread of
> apostrophe disease? Past-participle disease? Neutrinos bombarding
> Mars? Dark energy? Alien bigfoots eating vanilla ice cream in a
> Saturnian Ammonia Storm? Movie leader? More Star Trek? Classical
> music?


Ok, you pose a big challenge of a number of subjects we must tackle
before we can return to VMS. I'll take the easy one first.

Heat death of the universe:

Simple. the air conditioning fails in the room that runs the simulation
of the universe (on VMS, of course) and the system does an auto shutdown
without allowing the simulation to save the game first.

Calamity in 2012:

George W Bush gets re-elected.

Discovery of Miss Higgs' bosums:
Read about it in Playboy.

In article <4c33d96f$0$16567$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Alan Feldman wrote:
>> What's next? More QM? Heat
>> death of the universe? Calamity in 2012? Discovery of the Higgs boson?
>> Stimulus money for the International Space Station? The spread of
>> apostrophe disease? Past-participle disease? Neutrinos bombarding
>> Mars? Dark energy? Alien bigfoots eating vanilla ice cream in a
>> Saturnian Ammonia Storm? Movie leader? More Star Trek? Classical
>> music?
>
>
>Ok, you pose a big challenge of a number of subjects we must tackle
>before we can return to VMS. I'll take the easy one first.
>
>Heat death of the universe:
>
>Simple. the air conditioning fails in the room that runs the simulation
>of the universe (on VMS, of course) and the system does an auto shutdown
>without allowing the simulation to save the game first.
>
>Calamity in 2012:
>
>George W Bush gets re-elected.

I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
full time and cannot.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jul 4, 11:49=A0am, "FredK" <fred.nos...@dec.com> wrote:
> "Michael Kraemer" <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote in message
>
> news:i0q864$n57$00$1@news.t-online.com...
>
> > Jan-Erik Soderholm schrieb:
> >> On 2010-07-04 16:00, FredK wrote:
>
> > For all routine transfers (electricity, water, local taxes etc)
> > people mostly use debt orders, something which
> > might be beyond comprehension for most US citizens.
> > But it keeps your head free from trivial stuff
> > to remember.
>
> I assume that this is an automatic monthy bank transfer. =A0Which is some=
thing
> easily setup with most banks here if you want. =A0However, I personally r=
efuse
> to allow automatic fund transfers from my bank accounts. =A0I want to hav=
e
> explicit control of when and what is transfered. =A0When the water bill
> accidentally comes in for $3000 instead of $45 - I don't find it trivial.

Me too. Now, if someone wants to automatically _deposit_ money into my
bank account, more power to them. I only have auto-pay with one
company, as I am quite comfortable working with them for a variety of
reasons. They've treated me well, performed their services well, small
enough to not be impersonal, yet big enough to whatever-the-word-is.

>
> For companies that allow it, I will use automatic credit card charges to =
my
> Amex. =A0It costs me nothing, and when I pay my Amex bill I know which ch=
arges
> I have authorized and for how much - and it makes it easier to dispute
> charges when there is a problem. =A0With a bank transfer, the horse has
> already left the barn.
>
> What can I say. =A0I prefer the inconvenience of having explicit control =
over
> my money.

Agreed.

AEF

> Alan Feldman wrote:
>> What's next? More QM? Heat
>> death of the universe? Calamity in 2012? Discovery of the Higgs boson?
>> Stimulus money for the International Space Station? The spread of
>> apostrophe disease? Past-participle disease? Neutrinos bombarding
>> Mars? Dark energy? Alien bigfoots eating vanilla ice cream in a
>> Saturnian Ammonia Storm? Movie leader? More Star Trek? Classical
>> music?


*Stimulus money for ISS:
Congress will never approve shipment of Viagra to the ISS. (that is
because of lobying from the guys making Cialis)

*Spread of the a postroph'e disease:
Spread of the past-participle disease:
I agree those do not belong in c.o.v. They are the responsability of the
World Healthg Organisation and Center for Disease Control.

*Neutrinos bombarding Mars:
This might be the jurisdiction of the US Food and Drug Administration.
If they want to bombard mars bars with neutrinos, it is the FDA that
will judge if this is safe or not (like they do for irradiated vegetables)

*Dark Energy:
It is called Oil. And there is lot of that dark stuff floating in the
gulf waters south of louisiana.

*Alien bigfoots eating vanilla ice cream in a Saturnian Ammonia Storm:
Since vanilla does not grow on Saturn, this is really a problem that
should be discussed in c.o.v. and involve the real VMS engineers as it
may be indicative of some incorrect memory sharing between processes
that simulate the universe. The process/thread which simulates Saturn
should not have knowledge of vanilla ice cream.

*More Star Trek
I believe that Bad Robot will produce another Star Trek movie.


*Classical Music
Yes.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
> full time and cannot.

Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.

JF Mezei wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
>> full time and cannot.
> 
> Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
> president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
> between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.

The limitation says nothing about consecutive terms!

"Article XXII
Section 1 -  No person shall be elected to the office of  he President 
more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or 
acted as President for more than two years of a term to which some other 
person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the 
President more than once. . . . "

I believe  that this was adopted after Franklin Delano Roosevelt was 
elected to his third term.

On Tue, 06 Jul 2010 22:30:08 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
>> full time and cannot.
> 
> Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
> president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
> between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.

I sure hope not.



-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, FredK wrote:

> States in the US are a lot like European Countries.  Sometimes even 
> the language is different :-)

That's something we in Europe may fail to appreciate. We tend to 
consider States in the US as mere administrative divisions. Our 
countries may have 1000-2000 years of history and/or independence, 
clearly different languages, traditions, etc.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

In article <i10dem$1fq$1@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
<jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> writes: 

> > Didn't Sweden nationalize their banks during their crisis sometime
> > back in the 1990's?
> 
> No. Sweden did what the US did with a number of banks that had
> similar "problems" reasently.
> 
> > If all banks in a country have one common owner,
> 
> There are 5-6 major banks with different (private) owners.
> *One* of them have an aprox 50% ownership by the state.
> Then there are a number of "nich" banks, most of them with
> office-less, internet-only operations (and lower costs to
> the customer).

Despite a reputation to the contrary, there is not that much state-owned 
industry in Sweden.  The state does have a large measure of control 
through high taxes and, at least in the past, more or less cooperative 
agreements between the government (almost always the Social Democrats), 
the labour unions and the employers.

> That is not the major driving force, it's the fact that we
> (mainly thanks to the "Home-PC" law) now have a PC with
> internet connection in more-or-less every home. That have
> driven the fast and widespread on-line banking.

Sweden has long been a leader and early adopter with respect to 
telecommunications.  I think this is due to a combination of few people 
living far apart (due to a land reform a few hundred years ago, designed 
to cut down on the spread of infectious diseases, there aren't even 
villages like in many other European countries), many Swedish industrial 
companies (think of all the Swedish companies---Volvo, Saab, Electrolux, 
IKEA, Ericsson, ABB---for just a population of 9 million) and a general 
climate of trust which makes possible business over the phone or 
internet where it wouldn't work, or people wouldn't want it, elsewhere.

> > It is about 2,500 miles from NY to LA.
> 
> Yes, I know. Sweden is 1.500 miles from south to north with
> aprox 9 million people. But it is not relevant.

About the size and shape of California, but with fewer people.

In article <UsidnTkea515bK7RnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> 
>>> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
>>> full time and cannot.
>> 
>> Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
>> president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
>> between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.
> 
> The limitation says nothing about consecutive terms!
> 
> "Article XXII
> Section 1 -  No person shall be elected to the office of  he President 
> more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or 
> acted as President for more than two years of a term to which some other 
> person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the 
> President more than once. . . . "
> 
> I believe  that this was adopted after Franklin Delano Roosevelt was 
> elected to his third term.

It was after he died in his fourth term, and it didn't take effect
until 1953.

I agree that an Obama 2nd term would be a calamity, even worse than
the calamity of his first term.  The nation might recover after just
one term, but two terms might result in a cancer we never recover from.


George Cook
WVNET

One last attempt to drag this back on-topic.

(I am mystified why this thread, which I started with purely
technical intentions, should have attracted such a massive landfill
of garbage)..

Sorry being so late in replying, I had an extended weekend, then it
took a huge amount of time filtering through all the replies to this
thread to find the relevant ones.

Thanks to Vaxman for pointing me to VTTEST - an excellent product
that I was unaware of. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

Thanks to Peter Weaver for pointing me to Fontforge. I have just
downloaded this, and its development aid, cygwin, and I am trying it
out today. I will report back to the newsgroup with the results of
the test, so we can all know if we can get Kermit to display a
character when there is an ascii-26 in the file.

I will also report back if Frank DC comes back with a fix.

sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question

> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?

Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..

[PW]
> According to a post I made about 4 years ago
> (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/98c3f5e75bb879e4/221c0c1ca6e9a45c?q=tpu+characters+26+weaver)
> TPU displays 26 for codes 1 through 8, 14 through 31, 127 through
> 159 and 255. So if you are working with a file containing any of
> these characters you will see whatever your terminal displays for
> ASCII 26.

[PS]
> But those representations aren't suitable for editing data files
> where you want to see correct column positioning. TPU is better
> suited for this, and it wouldn't surprise me if this the scenario
> the OP is trying to address

Sorry if I overlooked anybody else's questions that required a reply
from me.

I will inform you all about how this turns out, but I am leaving
this thread now and ignoring it, as it has lost its relevance to me.
All I will add about the other stuff is not to worry. I still write
out
cheques when I want to (just not in quatloos).  And don't worry
about the universe - it's my understanding that as soon as the sonic
screwdriver hits 88 mph, it ejects the warp-core, so we should all
be safe!

Cheers, John

In article <4c33e6b1$0$5067$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
>> full time and cannot.
>
>Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
>president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
>between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.

You're knowledge of US civics is like that of most Americans -- flawed.
Read this, it's the 22nd amendment to the US Constitution.  Its text is
readily available on-line.

   Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the
   President more than twice, and no person who has held the
   office of President, or acted as President, for more than
   two years of a term to which some other person was elected
   President shall be elected to the office of the President
   more than once. But this article shall not apply to any
   person holding the office of President when this article was
   proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person
   who may be holding the office of President, or acting as
   President, during the term within which this article becomes
   operative from holding the office of President or acting as
   President during the remainder of such term. 

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jul 7, 7:07=A0am, Big John <john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>
> > I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> > editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>
> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..

No they haven't. I'll try again.

Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost never
edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
edit files that have only printable characters.

Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
control-Z's in your files in the first place.  I hope this is clear
now.

>
> [PW]
>
> > According to a post I made about 4 years ago
> > (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/98c3f.=
...)
> > TPU displays 26 for codes 1 through 8, 14 through 31, 127 through
> > 159 and 255. So if you are working with a file containing any of
> > these characters you will see whatever your terminal displays for
> > ASCII 26.

This does not answer the question. Why do your files have ^Z's in
them?

>
> [PS]
>
> > But those representations aren't suitable for editing data files
> > where you want to see correct column positioning. TPU is better
> > suited for this, and it wouldn't surprise me if this the scenario
> > the OP is trying to address

This does not answer the question. Why do your files have ^Z's in
them?

Thanks!

[...]
> Cheers, John

AEF

On Jul 3, 8:34=A0pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-04 01:10, Alan Feldman wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 3, 11:12 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2010-07-03 16:54, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> >>> In the U.S.A. checks are still very much in use although some uses ar=
e
> >>> less frequent than they used to be. I pay for my purchases with a
> >>> *Debit* card rather than a credit card. The money is taken directly f=
rom
> >>> my bank account. I still pay for telephone service, water, natural ga=
s,
> >>> and electricity by check. That may change!
>
> >> Private purchases and ATM withdraws : my private debit-card.
> >> Business purchases : my business credit-card.
> >> All bills (private and business): through my internet bank(s)
> >> (including my monthly invoice on my business credit-card)
>
> >> Most private bills (like electricity, gas (car), telephone,
> >> internet, house rent and other periodic bills) are sent directly
> >> to my internet bank where I simpy click "accept" and they are
> >> payed. Takes a few seconds. If I want/need a paper copy there
> >> is a PDF copy in my internet bank to print out.
>
> > That paper copy might not do you much good if you have a problem with
> > the bank!
>
> What "problem" ?
> I do not need a paper copy to prove anything against the *bank*,
> they (and I) always have the payment log in there systems. I can

What if yours and theirs disagree? And what if they insist theirs is
right and yours is wrong?

> access it through my internet banking and they can see the same
> data of course.

Then why do people balance their checkbooks? Banks never make errors?

BTW, some businesses *prefer* checks.

[...]
AEF

On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
> On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com>  wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>>
>>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
>>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>>
>> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
>> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>
> No they haven't. I'll try again.
>
> Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost never
> edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
> files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
> edit files that have only printable characters.
>
> Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
> the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
> control-Z's in your files in the first place.  I hope this is clear
> now.
>

As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
unprintable characters in the file ?

"LC's No-Spam Newsreading account" <nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it> wrote in message 
news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1007071029200.23353@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg...
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2010, FredK wrote:
>
>> States in the US are a lot like European Countries.  Sometimes even the 
>> language is different :-)
>
> That's something we in Europe may fail to appreciate. We tend to consider 
> States in the US as mere administrative divisions. Our countries may have 
> 1000-2000 years of history and/or independence, clearly different 
> languages, traditions, etc.
>

Think of States as Europe post-EU :-)

I'm not really being serious in comparing the States to the EU, but we have 
a large and diverse country where many of our States are larger both 
geographically and economically than many developed nations.  While unified 
under a Federal government and laws, each State has it's own laws and 
traditions - and cultures.  Most of those "cultures" are the several hundred 
year removed cultures of the dominant heritages of those who settled there. 
We have a dominant language - English - but there are places here where you 
will find the local people speaking anything from Creole, to Polish, to 
Portuguese.  With the high immigration rate of latin Americans - dialects of 
Spanish are as common as English in many places.

We also have a large segment of the population that doesn't trust government 
and who cling to a (naive) notion of privacy.  There are thousands of things 
that would be solved by having a national ID card for example.  Yet we don't 
have one and the "universal" ID here is the drivers license (which is issued 
by States and is different in all 50 States from one another!).

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" <jan-erik.soderholm@telia.com> wrote in message 
news:i11s5l$5ib$1@news.albasani.net...
> On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
>> On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com>  wrote:
>> [...]
>>>
>>> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>>>
>>>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
>>>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>>>
>>> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
>>> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>>
>> No they haven't. I'll try again.
>>
>> Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost never
>> edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
>> files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
>> edit files that have only printable characters.
>>
>> Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
>> the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
>> control-Z's in your files in the first place.  I hope this is clear
>> now.
>>
>
> As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
> They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
> there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
> unprintable characters in the file ?
>

Now the OT thread is being thread-jacked :-)

My apologies. I tried replying to this thread, but somehow it got
given the wrong title "OT: Cheques" when it should have said "Using
Kermit-95 to emulate a VT320". I must have pressed the wrong key.  (I
have to admit I hate this google groups nonsense, and I really mourn
the passing of our company's newsfeed - such a better way of reading
this information).

So here is exactly the same reply, but (I hope) with the correct
title.

------

One last attempt to drag this back on-topic.

(I am mystified why this thread, which I started with purely
technical intentions, should have attracted such a massive landfill
of garbage)..

Sorry being so late in replying, I had an extended weekend, then it
took a huge amount of time filtering through all the replies to this
thread to find the relevant ones.

Thanks to Vaxman for pointing me to VTTEST - an excellent product
that I was unaware of. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

Thanks to Peter Weaver for pointing me to Fontforge. I have just
downloaded this, and its development aid, cygwin, and I am trying it
out today. I will report back to the newsgroup with the results of
the test, so we can all know if we can get Kermit to display a
character when there is an ascii-26 in the file.

I will also report back if Frank DC comes back with a fix.

sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question

> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?

Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..

[PW]
> According to a post I made about 4 years ago
> (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/browse_thread/thread/98c3f5e75bb879e4/221c0c1ca6e9a45c?q=tpu+characters+26+weaver)
> TPU displays 26 for codes 1 through 8, 14 through 31, 127 through
> 159 and 255. So if you are working with a file containing any of
> these characters you will see whatever your terminal displays for
> ASCII 26.

[PS]
> But those representations aren't suitable for editing data files
> where you want to see correct column positioning. TPU is better
> suited for this, and it wouldn't surprise me if this the scenario
> the OP is trying to address

Sorry if I overlooked anybody else's questions that required a reply
from me.

I will inform you all about how this turns out, but I am leaving
this thread now and ignoring it, as it has lost its relevance to me.
All I will add about the other stuff is not to worry. I still write
out
cheques when I want to (just not in quatloos).  And don't worry
about the universe - it's my understanding that as soon as the sonic
screwdriver hits 88 mph, it ejects the warp-core, so we should all
be safe!

Cheers, John

On 2010-07-07 14:30, AEF wrote:

> On Jul 3, 8:34 pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>> What "problem" ?
>> I do not need a paper copy to prove anything against the *bank*,
>> they (and I) always have the payment log in there systems. I can
>
> What if yours and theirs disagree? And what if they insist theirs is
> right and yours is wrong?

We'll see when and if that happens... :-)

>
>> access it through my internet banking and they can see the same
>> data of course.
>
> Then why do people balance their checkbooks? Banks never make errors?

What is a "checkbook"
And what do you do when you "balance" it ?

>
> BTW, some businesses *prefer* checks.

Very few business over here would even accept a check, which
isn't a real problem since they (the checks) doesn't exist anyway.

B.t.w, I wrote earlier that our banks charges aprox $20 to clear a check.
That is for *swedish* checks. The usual fee to clear (lets say) an US
check in Sweden is around $50-70 USD and it takes 2-3 weeks. But most
banks simply refuses to bother with foreign checks at all.

I saw a message from someone that tried to cash in a check from
Google AdSense. The bank would charge the equivalent of $130 USD
to cash in the check. He got Google to wire his account instead...
http://rickardandersson.com/adsense-checks-in-sweden

In article <13ae45c0-9999-4e3f-b6c9-5a7dca828fad@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Big John <john.powers@airwidesolutions.com> writes:
>{...snip...}
>Thanks to Vaxman for pointing me to VTTEST - an excellent product
>that I was unaware of. It does exactly what it says on the tin.

I'll round up my rectangular escape sequence tests and forward them to
you as well.  I'll try to get some graphics first, so you know what to
expect as a result from each.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <i11rs0$vtq$1@usenet01.boi.hp.com>, "FredK" <fred.nospam@dec.com> writes:
> 
> I'm not really being serious in comparing the States to the EU, but we have 
> a large and diverse country where many of our States are larger both 
> geographically and economically than many developed nations.

   The states of the US are truely independent States in many ways,
   such as having domain over their lands.

   The federal government of the US does not have domain over the
   territories of the states, it is granted power over such by the 
   states when they accept entry into the union.

   Only Florida was entered into the union against it's wishes, and
   that only the first time.*

   Prior to the EU, friends from the UK, having just toured the US by
   rental car, claimed no self respecting State would actually allow
   people to cross their borders without stopping them to see who
   they are.

   I understand travel between EU countries has been simplified since.

--------------------
* whether or not the states legally left and rejoined the union at the
time of the Civil War is still at debate

On Wed, 7 Jul 2010, FredK wrote:

>>> States in the US are a lot like European Countries.  Sometimes even the
>>> language is different :-)

>> That's something we in Europe may fail to appreciate.

> Think of States as Europe post-EU :-)

I guess even if EU is successful in the way the federalists hope (and I 
hope it will) that would/could not cancel 1000-2000 years of history and 
the related differences.

> We have a dominant language - English - but there are places here 
> where you will find the local people speaking anything from Creole, to 
> Polish, to Portuguese.

But that is, I guess, unrelated with the State such communities are in, 
and far from the concept of "State official language".

We have too (though in a vestigial form) historical language minorities 
without official status (there are areas in the south of Italy with 
people speaking Albanian or Greek dialects which date to the 1500 or 
earlier, or Piedmontese dialects in Calabria due to Protestants escaping 
from Piedmont some centuries ago). Conversely, even in a country with a 
dominant official language like Italy, there are areas where German, 
French or Slovenian is the second official language of a minority, but 
that's mainly the effect of pressures by an adjacent country. The rule 
"one country one language" is sort of a standard signature at least 
since 1700 (there was an essay by Toynbee on the matter; it might have 
been even a plague for Europe up to 50 years or so)

> that would be solved by having a national ID card for example.  Yet we 
> don't have one and the "universal" ID here is the drivers license

I guess that's more to do with anglosaxons vs rest of Europe. I 
understand the Brits have similar adversion to ID cards. On the other 
hand there is no *european* ID card, and each country can have a variety 
of ID documents, all valid for identification in the country, and most 
valid for expatriation within Europe (unless you fly Ryanair :-)).

We are particulary good at that :-) ... several years ago I noticed the 
fact that a bunch of Italians travelling together passing immigration 
check at Amsterdam airport all showed a different document ... some a 
passport, some a national id card, some a university professor card or 
railway concession card.

To these one should possibly add nowadays ... the new electronic (credit 
card size) id card, the old id card (two page booklet) whose validity 
has been extended from 5 to 10 years with a stamp on the back page, and 
the first electronic id cards issued more than 5 years ago, whose 
validity has been extended from 5 to 10 years by a stamp on a slip of 
paper !  :-))

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
nospam@mi.iasf.cnr.it is a newsreading account used by more persons to
avoid unwanted spam. Any mail returning to this address will be rejected.
Users can disclose their e-mail address in the article if they wish so.

In article <4c33e6b1$0$5067$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> I'd say Obama being re-elected would be more a calamity.  GWB did his
>> full time and cannot.
> 
> Doesn't the limit apply to 2 consecutive terms ? I thought that a former
> president could come back for a 3rd term if there was another president
> between the end of his first 2 terms and his running for a 3rd one.

   "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
   twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
   President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
   was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President
   more than once."

   Does not matter about consecutive or not.

On Jul 7, 8:32=A0am, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> =A0wrote:
> > [...]
>
> >> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>
> >>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> >>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>
> >> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
> >> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>
> > No they haven't. I'll try again.
>
> > Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost never
> > edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
> > files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
> > edit files that have only printable characters.
>
> > Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
> > the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
> > control-Z's in your files in the first place. =A0I hope this is clear
> > now.
>
> As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
> They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
> there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
> unprintable characters in the file ?

You're right. I did notice -- even if I didn't post it -- that TPU
uses backwards question marks for the un-printables. But this is even
worse!

Perhaps someone _is_ editing EDT journal files for undo operations.

Or perhaps system managers or system programmers need to look at such
files. I myself rarely do.

AEF

AEF

On Jul 7, 8:58=A0am, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-07 14:30, AEF wrote:
>
> > On Jul 3, 8:34 pm, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> > wrote:
> >> What "problem" ?
> >> I do not need a paper copy to prove anything against the *bank*,
> >> they (and I) always have the payment log in there systems. I can
>
> > What if yours and theirs disagree? And what if they insist theirs is
> > right and yours is wrong?
>
> We'll see when and if that happens... :-)

How would you know if it hasn't already? :-)

>
>
>
> >> access it through my internet banking and they can see the same
> >> data of course.
>
> > Then why do people balance their checkbooks? Banks never make errors?
>
> What is a "checkbook"
> And what do you do when you "balance" it ?

Why are you even posting comments on this if you don't already know.
Google it.

>
>
>
> > BTW, some businesses *prefer* checks.
>
> Very few business over here would even accept a check, which
> isn't a real problem since they (the checks) doesn't exist anyway.

I'm not over there.

>
> B.t.w, I wrote earlier that our banks charges aprox $20 to clear a check.
> That is for *swedish* checks. The usual fee to clear (lets say) an US
> check in Sweden is around $50-70 USD and it takes 2-3 weeks. But most
> banks simply refuses to bother with foreign checks at all.

Our banks charge nada for clearing checks.

>
> I saw a message from someone that tried to cash in a check from
> Google AdSense. The bank would charge the equivalent of $130 USD
> to cash in the check. He got Google to wire his account instead...http://=
rickardandersson.com/adsense-checks-in-sweden

So you have an obnoxious, unethical banks. So what? See what trouble
it caused?

AEF

On 07/07/2010 15:54, AEF wrote:
> On Jul 7, 8:32 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> wrote:
>> On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com>    wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>>>> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>>
>>>>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
>>>>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>>
>>>> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
>>>> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>>
>>> No they haven't. I'll try again.
>>
>>> Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost never
>>> edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
>>> files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
>>> edit files that have only printable characters.
>>
>>> Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
>>> the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
>>> control-Z's in your files in the first place.  I hope this is clear
>>> now.
>>
>> As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
>> They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
>> there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
>> unprintable characters in the file ?
>
> You're right. I did notice -- even if I didn't post it -- that TPU
> uses backwards question marks for the un-printables. But this is even
> worse!
>
> Perhaps someone _is_ editing EDT journal files for undo operations.
>
> Or perhaps system managers or system programmers need to look at such
> files. I myself rarely do.

Indeed - I regularly edit executables.  I have even been known to
edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
more, ahem, "imaginative".

P.s. and it's not just to look at them (that's what DUMP is for :-)

FredK wrote:

> Think of States as Europe post-EU :-)

In terms of financial regulation, do individual states have much power,
or is the power concentrated with the various federal institutions
(FDIC, SEC, Federal Bank etc) ?

R.A.Omond wrote:

> Indeed - I regularly edit executables.  I have even been known to
> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
> more, ahem, "imaginative".


What is the best way to make a normal file "directory" ? (the reverse is
easy).

Big John wrote:

> (I am mystified why this thread, which I started with purely
> technical intentions, should have attracted such a massive landfill
> of garbage)..

   I blame you:

Big John wrote:
> Thanks for all the contributions from everybody - although this
> thread has drifted slightly off-topic.
>
> ( I don't really mind that, quite enjoy some of it, especially from
> some of the bright wordsmiths, like such an eloquent GOM as Vaxman,
> with whom I tend to find myself in agreement most ot the time. I
> find many of these rantings an amusing diversion).
> [...]

JF Mezei wrote:
> FredK wrote:
> 
>> Think of States as Europe post-EU :-)
> 
> In terms of financial regulation, do individual states have much power,
> or is the power concentrated with the various federal institutions
> (FDIC, SEC, Federal Bank etc) ?

In the U.S. banks can be chartered by either state governments or the 
Federal Government.  Federally chartered banks are inclined to call 
themselves something like "'Mumble' National Bank".  The "First National 
Bank of Mumbleville" is an example.  All banks are subject to some 
federal regulation.

Banks with state charters frequently use the word "State" in their names 
e.g. Charityville State Bank".  I'm not certain whether or not Federally 
chartered banks are subject to state regulation or not.

For further information, consult an expert.

JF Mezei wrote:
> R.A.Omond wrote:
> 
>> Indeed - I regularly edit executables.  I have even been known to
>> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
>> more, ahem, "imaginative".
> 
> 
> What is the best way to make a normal file "directory" ? (the reverse is
> easy).

Delete the "normal file" and use:

$ CREATE /DIRECTORY DDCU:[MUMBLE]

There may be other ways but the above is the simple and straightforward 
way to to the job!

There is a bit in the file header that makes the file a directory, or 
not.  I strongly suggest that you do not tinker with the file header. 
It is much easier to break something than to fix it!

If you must tinker, make a backup first!!

In article <4c34b67e$0$30254$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> FredK wrote:
> 
>> Think of States as Europe post-EU :-)
> 
> In terms of financial regulation, do individual states have much power,
> or is the power concentrated with the various federal institutions
> (FDIC, SEC, Federal Bank etc) ?

   Some states have state bank insurance that banks can use, instead of
   using FDIC.  Many states have thier own financial regulations.
   They all have thier own tax laws.  All transactions across state
   lines tend to be ruled by the federal government.

   In general the states have much more power than the feds, except in
   selected areas that have been deemed as strictly powers of the
   federal government.  And in general, the lower you go in government
   the more lenient the courts are about how much power the government
   has.

   For example, only a local government can set standards of what
   constitutes pornography involving adults.

In article <4c349da8$0$277$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, "R.A.Omond" <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> writes:
> 
> Indeed - I regularly edit executables.

   That's what DEBUG and PATCH were for.  Since DEC didn't supply PATCH 
   for Alpha, someone else did.  Since IA64 uses efl and dwarf, there
   should be some portable PATCH like routine one can use.

>  I have even been known to
> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
> more, ahem, "imaginative".

   Seems like that's what create, rename, and delete are for.

   Doesn't TPU still insist on changing the file format?  Since EDT
   doesn't do that, I'd think it would make a better editor for
   directory and executable files.

On Jul 2, 2:58=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> > In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroup=
s.com>,
> > =A0 =A0Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> [...]
>
> >>>>> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
> >>>>> Putty
> >>>> PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
> >>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> >>> for me. =A0I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> >>>> And it works on SmarTerm, too.
> >>>>> Teraterm
> >>>>> Hummingbird Exceed
> >>>>> Kermit-95
> >>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> >>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. =A0At
> >>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> >>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> >>> rectangle (like a block cursor). =A0It was definitely
> >>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> >>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> >>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> >>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> >>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> >>> X-server.
>
> >>> =A0 =A0 -Ken
> >> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> >> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
> >> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
> > Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
> > is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
> > It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> > but it definitely is not correct.
>
> > bill
>
> I don't know where to look this up quickly in the documentation that I
> have but I thought that [0-31] decimal were all non-printable control
> characters. =A0Some terminals can represent characters in this range with
> a glyph representing the function of the character; e.g. "c-sub-r" for
> carriage return. =A0It's optional and doesn't happen unless you enable it=
 it.

There are some nice ASCII charts quickly findable by Google. Appendix
B, I believe, shows a nice one in the VMS user's manual. And yes,
characters 0-31 (decimal) are non-printable.

AEF

On Jul 4, 2:58=A0am, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > No. =A0That's only how your media wish to portray the US.
>
> The american side of our family denies evolution. (Except for one
> cousin, but she was murdered by her husband, and the kids (who had been
> thought evolution was scientificaly proven) were moved to a
> evolution-denying uncle/aunt and by now, they have probably been
> brainwashed.

Spare us the insults. Besides, you're basing this on a single data
point.

The dollar still rules.

Enough America-bashing.

AEF

On Jul 3, 9:27=A0am, Paul Sture <paul.nos...@sture.ch> wrote:
> In article <00A9FC90.109EC...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> =A0VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>
>
> > In article <893l6jFge...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bil=
l
> > Gunshannon) writes:
> > >In article <00A9FC82.F4AB3...@sendspamhere.org>,
> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 VAXman- =A0@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> > >> In article <i0hv54$kp...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> > >> <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> writes:
> > >>>On 2010-07-01 11:47, Big John wrote:
>
> > >>>> - Most such emulators do not display the ascii 26 character
> > >>>> correctly - in fact not at all. =A0This makes working in TPU which
> > >>>> uses it a lot a complete nightmare.
>
> > >>>I'm not sure I understood the original problem here...
>
> > >>>What *is* the problem with not displaying that character ?
> > >>>How is it used by TPU ? Why want TPU display something
> > >>>using a non-printable character ?
>
> > >>>It's seems hard to belive that noone before have seen this
> > >>>problem with TPU together with a lot of (not that uncommon)
> > >>>emulators.
>
> > >>>Anyway, what *I* would do if I had a major problem with this,
> > >>>would be to simply get a Reflection package. :-)
> > >>>I bought my current Reflection package from eBay...
>
> > >> The backward ? is just a placeholder for a non-printable character. =
=A0
> > >> Without
> > >> it, it looks like a space. =A0For example, suppose what you were edi=
ting had
> > >> a
> > >> set of escape sequences to erase the screen and home the cursor:
>
> > >> <esc>[2J<esc>[H
>
> > >> On TPU on a terminal with the backward ? support, you'd see:
>
> > >> ?[2J?[H =A0 (assume the ? is the backward ?)
>
> > >> Without support, you'd see:
>
> > >> =A0[2J [H
>
> > >Neither of which actually displays what is there and so both are wrong=
..
>
> > >If anything, the application should take care of presenting the non-
> > >pritnable character but it would be best if it did so in a way that
> > >accurately represented what the character was. =A0A pretty standard (a=
t
> > >least de facto) way is to use the printable character it equates to
> > >preceded by a ^. =A0
>
> > I use EDT which displays <esc>, ^Z, ^G, etc.
>
> But those representations aren't suitable for editing data files where
> you want to see correct column positioning. TPU is better suited for
> this, and it wouldn't surprise me if this the scenario the OP is trying
> to address.

Now wait a cotton-picking minute. Columns worth of non-printable
characters? What the f*** are you editing?

>
> TPU displays a form feed (^L) by a single (graphical) character
> representing "FF" (and a similar representation for vertical tab). A
> theoretical solution might have been to implement similar graphical
> representations for all non-printable characters, but now we are getting
> into what the hardware of the day could support.

>
> --
> Paul Sture

AEF

On Jul 7, 11:30=A0am, "R.A.Omond" <Roy.Om...@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:
> On 07/07/2010 15:54, AEF wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 8:32 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> =A0 =A0=
wrote:
> >>> [...]
>
> >>>> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>
> >>>>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> >>>>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>
> >>>> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
> >>>> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>
> >>> No they haven't. I'll try again.
>
> >>> Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost neve=
r
> >>> edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
> >>> files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
> >>> edit files that have only printable characters.
>
> >>> Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
> >>> the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
> >>> control-Z's in your files in the first place. =A0I hope this is clear
> >>> now.
>
> >> As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
> >> They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
> >> there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
> >> unprintable characters in the file ?
>
> > You're right. I did notice -- even if I didn't post it -- that TPU
> > uses backwards question marks for the un-printables. But this is even
> > worse!
>
> > Perhaps someone _is_ editing EDT journal files for undo operations.
>
> > Or perhaps system managers or system programmers need to look at such
> > files. I myself rarely do.
>
> Indeed - I regularly edit executables. =A0I have even been known to
> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-) =A0You need to be a little bit
> more, ahem, "imaginative".
>
> P.s. and it's not just to look at them (that's what DUMP is for :-)

Why?

AEF

On Jun 29, 11:08=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> > On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik
> >> Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> =A0writes:
> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> In
> >>>> article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegroup=
s.com>,
> >>>> Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com> =A0 writes:
> >>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org> =A0 wrote:
>
> >>>>>> If you're on unix, why not:
>
> >>>>> =A0 =A0 If he were "on unix", then what would he be doing with
> >>>>> Kermit 95?
>
> >>>> Jon wrote:
>
> >>>>> For the last 6 months+ as a result of company policy, I have been
> >>>>> working
> >>>>> only on Unix systems, but I have just been given something to do on
> >>>>> a VMS
> >>>>> system - yeehaw - so it's time to be a born-again newbie and get so=
me
> >>>>> advice from my favourite watering hole in the newsgroup world.
>
> >>>> Company policy... only unix...
>
> >>> It says *nothing* about his client (desktop) environment.
>
> >>> "Only unix" might very well include Windows desktops, of course.
>
> >> Jon said, "I have been working only on Unix systems" which, AFAIAC, do=
es
> >> not implicate the use of WEENDOZE. =A0If WEENDOZE, then Jon needs to s=
tate
> >> his intentions more clearly.
>
> > You read to much into that... :-)
>
> > Few people using a Windows system as there desktop would say
> > that they are "working on windows systems" (it you're not
> > a Windows Server admin or similar).
>
> > Besides, Kermit95 is not available for Unix, only Windows and OS/2.
> > You need C-Kermit for native Unix (or VMS) support.
> > I do not think he is using OS/2 as his client environment and
> > that leaves us with Windows.
>
> > You might also try not to sound childish with your
> > idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
>
> A dozen years ago, Windows deserved most of the abuse directed at it.
> W/2K and W/XP were and still are, desktop systems that work. =A0I'm using
> W/XP SP3 right now. It has been working for years.
>
> I also use VMS, Solaris, and Red Hat Enterprise Linux. =A0All four
> operating systems work and have for many years now. =A0I keep all four
> around because each has strong points as well as week points. =A0I just
> try to pick the right tool for the job at hand.

Windows is filled with numerous weak points. Sticky finders display
STILL slowly corrupts the video, or though more slowly and not as
destructively as NT4.

I'll give windows one thing: Keyboard shortcuts. You can do almost
ANYTHING with just the keyboard. Of course some of them don't work
sometimes, but overall it's pretty damn good.

What about those tiny fixed-size windows?

At work I occasionally get several svchost processes usurping 90+% of
the CPU. Yeah, I don't really know if that's a windows thing or not.

Outlook. Enough said. (Yeah, not Windows, but close enough.)

Event log: Can't sort by date/time. You can sort by date, or you can
sort by time. Sort by time?

..dll hell.

I'm sure there's plenty more.

AEF

On Jun 30, 11:12=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> AEF wrote:
> > On Jun 29, 11:08 am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> >>> On 2010-06-29 16:17, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>> In article<i0cv0m$5a...@news.albasani.net>, Jan-Erik
> >>>> Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com> =A0writes:
> >>>>> On 2010-06-29 16:06, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >>>>>> In
> >>>>>> article<b85eef6e-56be-4657-95dc-31fe703d1...@i28g2000yqa.googlegro=
ups.com>,
> >>>>>> Steven Schweda<sms.antin...@gmail.com> =A0 writes:
> >>>>>>> VAXman-<@sendspamhere.org> =A0 wrote:
> > [...]
> >>> You might also try not to sound childish with your
> >>> idiotic spelling of Windows. It's only tiresome...
> >> A dozen years ago, Windows deserved most of the abuse directed at it.
> >> W/2K and W/XP were and still are, desktop systems that work. =A0I'm us=
ing
> >> W/XP SP3 right now. It has been working for years.
>
> > Yep, I remember NT4. It was like driving in a jalopy on Rt. 1 South in
> > California, which is at the edge of a cliff. One tiny bump in the road
> > and over you go into bluescreensville.
>
> > But I still have problems with recent versions; Outlook, for one.
>
> You don't have to use OUTLOOK! =A0I've been using the Thunderbird Mail
> Client for a couple of years now. =A0Before that I used Netscape. =A0Both
> worked without problems!

Yes I do. At work that's what I have to use. Someone once tried
something else and had problems.

Hated Netscape. Back and forth and back and forth and...

AEF

Alan Feldman wrote:

>> The american side of our family denies evolution. (Except for one
>> cousin, but she was murdered by her husband, and the kids (who had been
>> thought evolution was scientificaly proven) were moved to a
>> evolution-denying uncle/aunt and by now, they have probably been
>> brainwashed.
> 
> Spare us the insults. Besides, you're basing this on a single data
> point.

Don't accuse me of insulting your country. This is a factual aspect of
part of our family. I did not claim it was representative of all
americans. But it does represent a sizeable enough community to make it
interesting for media to support/cover. Fox News would not get
advertising dollars if its editorial slant did not attract large enough
viewership. And they wouldn't be building "born again" churches capable
of holding over 1000 people for such "no to evolution" speeches if there
weren't enough people convinced that evolution has been proven to be wrong.

And there are people like that all over the world. However, outside the
USA, they have little political power, whereas in the USA, they are
coveted by the Republican party and thus gets an inordinate amount of
exposure.

On Jun 30, 5:21=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> JF Mezei wrote:
> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> >> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or
> >> something like that.
>
> > I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
> > completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
> > submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the re=
scue.
>
> > DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
> > early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
> > (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
> > etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
> > offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
>
> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology? =A0I
> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with
> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and
> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.

A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
this true?

AEF

On Jun 30, 6:14=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> > In article <Vvidnc3gge_OL7bRnZ2dnUVZ_g2dn...@giganews.com>, "Richard B.=
 Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net> writes:
> >> {...snip...}
> >> The Windows that you so despise is my desktop. =A0The fact that
> >> applications for Windows are readily available and more or less
> >> affordable is why I run a Windows system as my primary system.
>
> > The applications you run. =A0Those I run do not run on WEENDOZE.
>
> >> For VMS or Unix systems it's mostly "roll your own" or do without.
> >> I might be able get "Hobbyist" licenses for some VMS based application=
s
> >> but most applications I need are things that I would run on my PC =A0I
> >> have the "basic three" Word Processor, Spreadsheet, and Database that =
I
> >> can use without restriction.
>
> > That's not true. =A0There's a wealth of open software for Linux and the=
re
> > is quite an eco-system supporting Mac OS X. =A0There are also equivalen=
t
> > packaged for these OSs to compete with those on WEENDOZE and, in great
> > numbers, these equivalents are better than those on WEENDOZE.
>
> Sorry! =A0Windows XP is and will remain my desktop. =A0It's rock solid. =
=A0It
> works and I know how to install, configure, and use it.
>
> Quicken keeps my checking account in order as well as writing my checks.
> =A0 TurboTax does my Federal and State income tax every year.
> FamilyTreeMaker keeps track of 20,000 or so people I'm related to.
> WordPerfect V12 handles my correspondence. =A0An ancient but still
> functioning copy of Lotus 1-2-3 satisfies my occasional need for a
> spreadsheet.
>
> I have RHEL running on an old PC. =A0I bought a copy on CD which included
> a year of support. =A0I eventually got tired of applying ten to thirty
> patches every week. =A0I still have it and even boot it up and use it onc=
e
> or twice a year.

Can Turbo TAx handle moving from NYC to NJ? Will I get forms for US,
NY, and NJ when I buy it? It's not clear from the box. I do it by
hand.

AEF

On Jul 1, 2:33=A0pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <48e1245c-5be3-4136-bde0-a8795bfae...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On Jul 1, 11:14=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegro=
ups.com>,
> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> >> >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> >> >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> >> >> mark when given ascii 26.
> >> > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>
> >> That's vi, not putty. =A0
> > You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?
>
> Most likely, TPU just passes them and leaves it up to the terminal to
> decide how to handle them. =A0The question really is, "What should a
> terminal do when given an unprintable character?" =A0In my opinion, it
> should either perform the action connected to the character, if it is in
> fact doable (^M, ^J, ^L, ^G, ^I, ^H, etc.) or it should merely ignore
> them if no action is appropriate. =A0The problem is when a terminal does
> something inappropriate (like printing a non-ASCII character) and
> people get so used to it that they think this is the correct behavior.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

But it depends on your purpose. TPU replaces non-printable characters
with the backwards ?. That's what it's designed to do. The TYPE
command is another matter, as is DUMP.

AEF

On Jul 2, 8:40=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 11:53=A0am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jul 1, 6:20=A0am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
>
> >> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>
> >> > > Putty
>
> >> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>
> >> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> >> for me. =A0I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> >> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>
> >> > > Teraterm
> >> > > Hummingbird Exceed
> >> > > Kermit-95
>
> >> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> >> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. =A0At
> >> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> >> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> >> rectangle (like a block cursor). =A0It was definitely
> >> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> >> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> >> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> >> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> >> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> >> X-server.
>
> >> =A0 =A0 -Ken
> > I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> > But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
> > it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
> Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
> is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
> It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> but it definitely is not correct.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

If your editing a file, what do you want to happen? Do you want a form
feed to insert lots of blank lines? What do you want the null
character to do?

AEF

On Jul 2, 9:00=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <894rstFbk...@mid.individual.net>, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill =
Gunshannon) writes:
> >In article <i0j5ki$8hb$0...@news.t-online.com>,
> > =A0 =A0Michael Kraemer <M.Krae...@gsi.de> writes:
> >> Bill Gunshannon schrieb:
> >>> And, in case anyone is actually curious about what I see, here are th=
e
> >>> results from a simple keyword search on USAJOBS.GOV :
>
> >>> Linux =A0 - 24 jobs
> >>> OS-X =A0 =A0- 1 job
> >>> Apple =A0 - 0 jobs (but a number of hits from people who mis-spelled =
"apply". :-)
> >>> Unix =A0 =A0- 29 jobs
> >>> Windows - 107 jobs
> >>> AIX =A0 =A0 - 1 job
> >>> HP-UX =A0 - 0 jobs
> >>> Solaris - 8 jobs
> >>> VMS =A0 =A0 - 3 jobs
> >>> =A0 =A0 1 - VMS (VAX/ALPHA)
> >>> =A0 =A0 1 - Vulnerabilty Management System which is a DISA package ru=
nning
> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0on Windows Server.
> >>> =A0 =A0 1 - Virtual Memory System followed immediately by /MVS so I t=
hink we
> >>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 all know =
what that means.
>
> >>> So, if you were looking for a job, which skillset looks the most prom=
ising?
> >>> I am sure if I went to any of the larger corporations the results wou=
ld be
> >>> similar except there would actually be HP-UX and some IBM mainframe.
>
> >> So if "number of job offers" is the metric,
> >> Windows is far away from 97%.
>
> >I did a quick search on a single keyword on one site. =A0Hardly exhausti=
ve.
> >I am certain there are places where all you would find were Windows jobs
> >because that's the corporate standard.
>
> If the corporation is a bunch of pencil pushing money handling stuffed
> shirts, it may be the standard. =A0
>
> I know one advertising firm a friend works for and there are over 1000
> Macs in just one of their buildings. =A0
>
> Creative artistic types use Mac
> Xhell spreadsheet dolts use WEENDOZE
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
> All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

So what don't you like about Excel? You don't even use it!

AEF

On Jul 3, 11:00=A0am, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
wrote:
> On 2010-07-03 16:45, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>
>
> > I learned that in the Netherlands, where one simply hands over their ba=
nk
> > account number
>
> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.http:/=
/www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm

Ah, so everyone in the world can see it! This is better somehow?

OK, I'm missing some context here.

And it's getting later by the minute!

AEF

On Jul 7, 9:45=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >> The american side of our family denies evolution. (Except for one
> >> cousin, but she was murdered by her husband, and the kids (who had bee=
n
> >> thought evolution was scientificaly proven) were moved to a
> >> evolution-denying uncle/aunt and by now, they have probably been
> >> brainwashed.
>
> > Spare us the insults. Besides, you're basing this on a single data
> > point.
>
> Don't accuse me of insulting your country. This is a factual aspect of
> part of our family. I did not claim it was representative of all

Then why did you even mention it?

> americans. But it does represent a sizeable enough community to make it
> interesting for media to support/cover. Fox News would not get
> advertising dollars if its editorial slant did not attract large enough
> viewership. And they wouldn't be building "born again" churches capable
> of holding over 1000 people for such "no to evolution" speeches if there
> weren't enough people convinced that evolution has been proven to be wron=
g.

So far we're winning the fight against Inteligent Design and other
crap like that. I don't know what goes on in other countries. We also
have universities that people all around the world flock to. More
people want to immigrate to this country than probably any other. Have
you heard of Thomas Edison? (Menlo Park, New Jersey!) Einstein chose
to live the last years of his life here. In New Jersey no less!
Princeton to be more precise. We produce many great scientists and
lots of great technology.

Spare me your insults.

AEF

>
> And there are people like that all over the world. However, outside the
> USA, they have little political power, whereas in the USA, they are
> coveted by the Republican party and thus gets an inordinate amount of
> exposure.

Alan Feldman wrote:

>> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.http://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
> 
> Ah, so everyone in the world can see it! This is better somehow?


If you are concerned, you create an account that you use only to accept
deposits and don't keep any money in it. This way, if someone finds a
way to steal money from that account, they'll get nothing.

Alan Feldman wrote:

> So far we're winning the fight against Inteligent Design and other
> crap like that. I don't know what goes on in other countries. We also
> have universities that people all around the world flock to.

What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
accepted ?

We hear stories of towns in Texas banning the teaching of evolution in
their schools. Why would anyone make up such stories ?

Perhaps you are from a region of the USA where this anti-evolution crap
has never taken hold, perhaps because people in your region have better
education and are more immune from brainwashing from those cults that
are against evolution.

But I know that it is more than isolated cases. I know that there are
large new "churches" in California that cater to large congregations.
They pretend to be christian and take the bible litterally and quote
scripture whenever they wish to justify one of their actions/decisions.
(reminiscent of terrorists who find some way to quote the Koran to
support their action).

Consider yourself lucky if nobody in your family has turned that way.
Seeing children brainwashed that way by their parents is sad.

 > A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
 > DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
 > remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
 > this true?

Well, the sale price is of the correct magnitude, at least.
I sincerely doubt it cost them $400 to build though -- too small
a margin.

De

Dennis Boone schrieb:
>  > A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
>  > DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
>  > remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
>  > this true?
> 
> Well, the sale price is of the correct magnitude, at least.
> I sincerely doubt it cost them $400 to build though -- too small
> a margin.
> 
> De

what? A margin around 500% too small?

George Cook wrote:

> You do realize that even if the percentage of anti-evolution types in
> the US was as high as 3%, that that would be 10 million people? 

The worrysome portion isn't the small number of such people, it is the
trend of growth, and more importantly, the political power they yield.


> Don't condemn the entire US for the actions of a small percentage

This isn't a condemnation of a country. Just a reflexion of a portion of
a society which has runned amok.


> In any case, it is one of the freedoms we value in the US to raise
> one's children as one sees fit.  It is not the place of the
> government to decide which beliefs are correct.

That is correct. They have a right to think what they think, and a
government can't legally stop them. (just as a government can't
legislate that you must like and agree with JF :-)

But isn't it troublesome that this small group of people yield
sufficient political power to cause school boards to stop teaching
evolution ?

They are like missionaries, trying to spread their gospel. Instead of
knocking on doors like mormons/jeovahs, they support politicians to get
their ideas across.

Meanwhile, in France, they are working damned hard to remove any signs
of religion in their schools. (mostly to prevent females from being
coerced into wearing veils/burkas at school, but they are using the
"government must not get involved in religion" as the excuse to ensure
that schools are religion free.


It is just very strange to see people who used to be normal go through
something which causes them to adopt  15th century thinking that rejects
any science which they THINK contradicts the bible.

I agree that you can't prevent these people from thinking or speaking
what they believe in. But it is not productive to allow a small
percentage of population to try to prevent a nation from accepting science.

JF Mezei schrieb:
> George Cook wrote:
> 
> 
>>You do realize that even if the percentage of anti-evolution types in
>>the US was as high as 3%, that that would be 10 million people? 
> 
> 
> The worrysome portion isn't the small number of such people, it is the
> trend of growth, and more importantly, the political power they yield.

and it is kind of paradox that, at least as far as I've read,
the evolution-deniers have a higher reproduction rate
than the rationalists, so by the laws of evolution the
deniers eventually will win.
Unless, of course, denying evolution is such a big drawback
for the survival of the fittest that it offsets the higher
reproduction rate.

> Meanwhile, in France, they are working damned hard to remove any signs
> of religion in their schools. (mostly to prevent females from being
> coerced into wearing veils/burkas at school, but they are using the
> "government must not get involved in religion" as the excuse to ensure
> that schools are religion free.

And here is another paradox.
In France, as well as in the other so-called christian countries
there are lengthy discussions
whether such bans are really helpful or not.
In Turkey, undoubtedly a country with islamic background,
those religious symbols are simply banned, period.

In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> 
>> So far we're winning the fight against Inteligent Design and other
>> crap like that. I don't know what goes on in other countries. We also
>> have universities that people all around the world flock to.
> 
> What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
> universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
> accepted ?
> 
> We hear stories of towns in Texas banning the teaching of evolution in
> their schools. Why would anyone make up such stories ?
> 
> Perhaps you are from a region of the USA where this anti-evolution crap
> has never taken hold, perhaps because people in your region have better
> education and are more immune from brainwashing from those cults that
> are against evolution.
> 
> But I know that it is more than isolated cases. I know that there are
> large new "churches" in California that cater to large congregations.
> They pretend to be christian and take the bible litterally and quote
> scripture whenever they wish to justify one of their actions/decisions.
> (reminiscent of terrorists who find some way to quote the Koran to
> support their action).
> 
> Consider yourself lucky if nobody in your family has turned that way.
> Seeing children brainwashed that way by their parents is sad.

You do realize that even if the percentage of anti-evolution types in
the US was as high as 3%, that that would be 10 million people? 

Don't condemn the entire US for the actions of a small percentage
of the population.  It is insulting.  Even though I grew up in
southern WV which most of the US considers to be as backward as it
gets, I have never personally know one of the people of which you
speak.  Yes, a holy rollers church was across the road from my
childhood home, but I never knew any of the members (in fact we
made fun of them).

In any case, it is one of the freedoms we value in the US to raise
one's children as one sees fit.  It is not the place of the
government to decide which beliefs are correct.  After the US 
government murdered 76 citizens (including 20+ children) at Waco
on 4/19/93, even Bill Clinton finally came to understand that
there was no place for thought police in the US government.


George Cook

On Jul 7, 11:30=A0am, "R.A.Omond" <Roy.Om...@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:
> On 07/07/2010 15:54, AEF wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 7, 8:32 am, Jan-Erik Soderholm<jan-erik.soderh...@telia.com>
> > wrote:
> >> On 2010-07-07 14:22, AEF wrote:
>
> >>> On Jul 7, 7:07 am, Big John<john.pow...@airwidesolutions.com> =A0 =A0=
wrote:
> >>> [...]
>
> >>>> sorry to Alan Feldman for not answering his question
>
> >>>>> I'd still like to know why there are ^Z characters in these
> >>>>> editable files in the first place. Big John, can you answer?
>
> >>>> Now, checking through the replies, I see that between them, Peter
> >>>> Weaver and Paul Sture have answered this one..
>
> >>> No they haven't. I'll try again.
>
> >>> Why do your files have ^Z's in them in the first place? I almost neve=
r
> >>> edit such files. Offhand all I can think of is editing EDT journal
> >>> files to undo unwanted changes. The vast, vast majority of the time I
> >>> edit files that have only printable characters.
>
> >>> Why are there control-Z characters in your files? I'm NOT asking why
> >>> the control-Z's don't display properly. I'm asking why there are
> >>> control-Z's in your files in the first place. =A0I hope this is clear
> >>> now.
>
> >> As I understood it, there wasn't cntl-Z characters *in* the file(s).
> >> They was used by TPU to represent unprintable characters (of which
> >> there are many possible). So the question is rather, why are there
> >> unprintable characters in the file ?
>
> > You're right. I did notice -- even if I didn't post it -- that TPU
> > uses backwards question marks for the un-printables. But this is even
> > worse!
>
> > Perhaps someone _is_ editing EDT journal files for undo operations.
>
> > Or perhaps system managers or system programmers need to look at such
> > files. I myself rarely do.
>
> Indeed - I regularly edit executables. =A0I have even been known to
> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-) =A0You need to be a little bit
> more, ahem, "imaginative".
>
> P.s. and it's not just to look at them (that's what DUMP is for :-)

Are you going to edit page and swap files next? Yeah, I'm sure those
are loaded with columns that will be screwed up by multi-character
mnemonics -- <ESC>, e.g. ;-)

Please.

AEF

AEF

On 08/07/2010 02:31, Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Jul 7, 11:30 am, "R.A.Omond"<Roy.Om...@BlueBubble.UK.Com>  wrote:
>> Indeed - I regularly edit executables.  I have even been known to
>> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
>> more, ahem, "imaginative".
>>
>> P.s. and it's not just to look at them (that's what DUMP is for :-)
>
> Why?

Here's a little hint:

Just imagine you have to replace a string in an executable for which
you do not have source.

Let's say replace all occurrences of DFU_ALLPRIV with INTERACTIVE
(note that they conveniently happen to be the same length).

Not that *I* would ever do such a thing, but if you are on a system
which has a licence for XXXXXX, but you need to do a quick fix which
requires you to compile something with language YYYYYY, and the system
has no licence for YYYYYY ... I'll leave you to imagine the rest.
(Yes, I know there are other ways round this :-) ...

As I said, you have to be a little bit more "imaginative".

And the directory stuff:  I needed a quick hack to introduce the
problem with directory entries being "out-of-order" to demonstrate
that DFU could fix these (this was on several systems which require
huge shenanigans to get up-to-date ECO kits installed, and I needed
the "fix" pretty damn quick).

Hein "RMS" van den Heuvel has also demonstrated some "interesting"
examples of direct manipulation of directories over the years - to
me they're gold dust.

On 2010-07-08 12:00, George Cook wrote:

> In article<4c3582a2$0$10348$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei<jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca>  writes:

>> It is just very strange to see people who used to be normal go through
>> something which causes them to adopt  15th century thinking that rejects
>> any science which they THINK contradicts the bible.
>
> Why is it you think that 1% to 3% of the US population has that much
> control when none of the right wing media ever mention anything even
> remotely related to religion?

Those figures seems quite low, doesn't they ?
Or are the figures in this article *that* wrong ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creationism

 From that article (and from references in the article) :

God created man in present form : 45 %
Man developed, with God guiding : 38 %
Man developed, but God had no part in process : 13 %
Other/No opinion : 4 %

Where does the 1-3 % mentioned belong in this scenario ?

On Thu, 08 Jul 2010 03:47:45 -0400, JF Mezei wrote:

> But isn't it troublesome that this small group of people yield
> sufficient political power to cause school boards to stop teaching
> evolution ?

It is very troubling (althiugh I think you mean 'wield').

> They are like missionaries, trying to spread their gospel. Instead of
> knocking on doors like mormons/jeovahs, they support politicians to get
> their ideas across.

Knocking on doors is fine; the political route is not.

-- 
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article <4c352db4$0$5515$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Alan Feldman wrote:
>
>>> The american side of our family denies evolution. (Except for one
>>> cousin, but she was murdered by her husband, and the kids (who had been
>>> thought evolution was scientificaly proven) were moved to a
>>> evolution-denying uncle/aunt and by now, they have probably been
>>> brainwashed.
>> 
>> Spare us the insults. Besides, you're basing this on a single data
>> point.
>
>Don't accuse me of insulting your country. This is a factual aspect of
>part of our family. I did not claim it was representative of all
>americans. But it does represent a sizeable enough community to make it
>interesting for media to support/cover. Fox News would not get
>advertising dollars if its editorial slant did not attract large enough
>viewership. And they wouldn't be building "born again" churches capable

Fox News is building born again churches?


>of holding over 1000 people for such "no to evolution" speeches if there
>weren't enough people convinced that evolution has been proven to be wrong.

1st amendment.


>And there are people like that all over the world. However, outside the
>USA, they have little political power, whereas in the USA, they are
>coveted by the Republican party and thus gets an inordinate amount of
>exposure.

Media slant.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <bca1110d-6b6b-40e6-9d92-f9267d2f706b@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
>{...snip...}
>
>So what don't you like about Excel? You don't even use it!

Getting emailed Xhell spreadsheets when a simple email or a printout of the
spreadsheet as a PDF (of course, it would be a M$ W(ie)RD .DOC file) would
suffice.


-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Alan Feldman wrote:
> On Jun 30, 5:21 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or
>>>> something like that.
>>> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
>>> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
>>> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
>>> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
>>> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
>>> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
>>> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
>>> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
>> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology?  I
>> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with
>> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and
>> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.
> 
> A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
> DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
> remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> this true?
> 
> AEF

I don't know DEC's cost to produce a VT-100 but the $1,900 sale price is 
close.  It left a lot of room for competitors to undercut DEC on price 
and still make a healthy profit!

I purchased a clone for $700.  Many others did also.

In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>Alan Feldman wrote:
>
>> So far we're winning the fight against Inteligent Design and other
>> crap like that. I don't know what goes on in other countries. We also
>> have universities that people all around the world flock to.
>
>What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
>universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
>accepted ?

They're too busy being taxed to the gills to support the other propaganda
mills used to push, into the tiny little brain boxes of children, agenda
and indoctination.  Here in the states, they call this the public school
system.


>We hear stories of towns in Texas banning the teaching of evolution in
>their schools. Why would anyone make up such stories ?
>
>Perhaps you are from a region of the USA where this anti-evolution crap
>has never taken hold, perhaps because people in your region have better
>education and are more immune from brainwashing from those cults that
>are against evolution.
>
>But I know that it is more than isolated cases. I know that there are
>large new "churches" in California that cater to large congregations.
>They pretend to be christian and take the bible litterally and quote
>scripture whenever they wish to justify one of their actions/decisions.
>(reminiscent of terrorists who find some way to quote the Koran to
>support their action).

I thought that Californians were in on the Cult of Scientology bandwagon. 
;)

>Consider yourself lucky if nobody in your family has turned that way.
>Seeing children brainwashed that way by their parents is sad.

Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
have had here.  Keep it up.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

On Jul 8, 2:10=A0am, Michael Kraemer <M.Krae...@gsi.de> wrote:
> Dennis Boone schrieb:
>
> > =A0> A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me th=
at
> > =A0> DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I migh=
t be
> > =A0> remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> > =A0> this true?
>
> > Well, the sale price is of the correct magnitude, at least.
> > I sincerely doubt it cost them $400 to build though -- too small
> > a margin.
>
> > De
>
> what? A margin around 500% too small?

I think he's joking.

If anyone has some authoritative numbers, please do tell.

AEF

On Jul 8, 7:42=A0am, VAXman-  @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <bca1110d-6b6b-40e6-9d92-f9267d2f7...@s9g2000yqd.googlegroups.=
com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >{...snip...}
>
> >So what don't you like about Excel? You don't even use it!
>
> Getting emailed Xhell spreadsheets when a simple email or a printout of t=
he
> spreadsheet as a PDF (of course, it would be a M$ W(ie)RD .DOC file) woul=
d
> suffice.
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker =A0 =A0VAXman(at)TMESIS(=
dot)ORG
>
> All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
> All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Hmmm. Don't think that ever happened to me.

Acrobat reader _is_ pretty obnoxious. Why is it so hard, in general,
for developers to get things to fit in windows and printouts? I think
even the Mac has problems with this sometimes. Is this a difficult
computer-science problem?

Windows only recently got the ability to write PDF's, no? I guess
you've got a lot of people mailing you who have Acrobat writer (or
whatever it's called).

At least the the PDF viewer on the Mac (Preview) is mostly better. (I
think its Search, Find, whatever, needs some work, but I haven't used
it in a while, but at first I know I found it a little lacking.)

AEF

On Jul 8, 7:52=A0am, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> > On Jun 30, 5:21 pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> JF Mezei wrote:
> >>> Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> >>>> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or
> >>>> something like that.
> >>> I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
> >>> completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit =
a
> >>> submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the =
rescue.
> >>> DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
> >>> early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
> >>> (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadshe=
et
> >>> etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
> >>> offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
> >> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology? =A0I
> >> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC wit=
h
> >> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and
> >> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.
>
> > A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
> > DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
> > remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> > this true?
>
> > AEF
>
> I don't know DEC's cost to produce a VT-100 but the $1,900 sale price is
> close. =A0It left a lot of room for competitors to undercut DEC on price
> and still make a healthy profit!
>
> I purchased a clone for $700. =A0Many others did also.

Oh, he also told me that no one else could touch it. But of course
that changed at some point.

AEF

On Jul 7, 11:26=A0pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Alan Feldman wrote:
> >> I do not have to "hand over" my account number, it's on my webpage.htt=
p://www.jescab.se/Kontakt1.htm
>
> > Ah, so everyone in the world can see it! This is better somehow?
>
> If you are concerned, you create an account that you use only to accept
> deposits and don't keep any money in it. This way, if someone finds a
> way to steal money from that account, they'll get nothing.

How can you not keep money into a deposit-only account? How can you
withdraw money therefrom?

You lost me.

AEF

In article <3d80c6c6-dd48-4bc1-8099-399cdbcd418f@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 2, 2:58�pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> > In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> > � �Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >> On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>> [...]
>>
>> >>>>> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>> >>>>> Putty
>> >>>> PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>> >>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>> >>> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>
>> >>>> And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>> >>>>> Teraterm
>> >>>>> Hummingbird Exceed
>> >>>>> Kermit-95
>> >>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>> >>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>> >>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>> >>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>> >>> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>> >>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>
>> >>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>> >>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>> >>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>> >>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>> >>> X-server.
>>
>> >>> � � -Ken
>> >> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>> >> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>> >> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>>
>> > Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
>> > is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
>> > It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
>> > but it definitely is not correct.
>>
>> > bill
>>
>> I don't know where to look this up quickly in the documentation that I
>> have but I thought that [0-31] decimal were all non-printable control
>> characters. �Some terminals can represent characters in this range with
>> a glyph representing the function of the character; e.g. "c-sub-r" for
>> carriage return. �It's optional and doesn't happen unless you enable it it.
> There are some nice ASCII charts quickly findable by Google. Appendix
> B, I believe, shows a nice one in the VMS user's manual. And yes,
> characters 0-31 (decimal) are non-printable.

Which was exactly my point.  Any visual representation is vendor
specific, arbitrary and not to be expected or relied on.  Basing
a functional, production system on this kind of behavior is dangerous
at best but definitely foolish.

And blaming other people for not offering support for such foolishness
is, well, silly.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

George Cook wrote:
> In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> Alan Feldman wrote:
>>
>>> So far we're winning the fight against Inteligent Design and other
>>> crap like that. I don't know what goes on in other countries. We also
>>> have universities that people all around the world flock to.
>> What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
>> universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
>> accepted ?
>>
>> We hear stories of towns in Texas banning the teaching of evolution in
>> their schools. Why would anyone make up such stories ?
>>
>> Perhaps you are from a region of the USA where this anti-evolution crap
>> has never taken hold, perhaps because people in your region have better
>> education and are more immune from brainwashing from those cults that
>> are against evolution.
>>
>> But I know that it is more than isolated cases. I know that there are
>> large new "churches" in California that cater to large congregations.
>> They pretend to be christian and take the bible litterally and quote
>> scripture whenever they wish to justify one of their actions/decisions.
>> (reminiscent of terrorists who find some way to quote the Koran to
>> support their action).
>>
>> Consider yourself lucky if nobody in your family has turned that way.
>> Seeing children brainwashed that way by their parents is sad.
> 
> You do realize that even if the percentage of anti-evolution types in
> the US was as high as 3%, that that would be 10 million people? 
> 
> Don't condemn the entire US for the actions of a small percentage
> of the population.  It is insulting.  Even though I grew up in
> southern WV which most of the US considers to be as backward as it
> gets, I have never personally know one of the people of which you
> speak.  Yes, a holy rollers church was across the road from my
> childhood home, but I never knew any of the members (in fact we
> made fun of them).
> 
> In any case, it is one of the freedoms we value in the US to raise
> one's children as one sees fit.  It is not the place of the
> government to decide which beliefs are correct.  After the US 
> government murdered 76 citizens (including 20+ children) at Waco
> on 4/19/93, even Bill Clinton finally came to understand that
> there was no place for thought police in the US government.
> 
> 
> George Cook

The "Waco whack-0s" had some rather strange views regarding the sexual 
abuse of children!

In article <20a08aac-ab8e-4b43-9c6b-579707bafe59@k39g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 2, 8:40�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 11:53�am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jul 1, 6:20�am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> [...]
>>
>> >> > > The other emulators tried that did not work are:
>>
>> >> > > Putty
>>
>> >> > PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
>>
>> >> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
>> >> for me. �I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>>
>> >> > And it works on SmarTerm, too.
>>
>> >> > > Teraterm
>> >> > > Hummingbird Exceed
>> >> > > Kermit-95
>>
>> >> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
>> >> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. �At
>> >> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
>> >> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
>> >> rectangle (like a block cursor). �It was definitely
>> >> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>>
>> >> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
>> >> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
>> >> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
>> >> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
>> >> X-server.
>>
>> >> � � -Ken
>> > I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
>> > But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does show
>> > it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>>
>> Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-26
>> is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually is.
>> It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
>> but it definitely is not correct.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon � � � � �| �de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. �Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | �and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton � |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania � | � � � � #include <std.disclaimer.h> �
> If your editing a file, what do you want to happen? Do you want a form
> feed to insert lots of blank lines? What do you want the null
> character to do?

The behavior of vi suits me.  But I certainly don't expect anyone else
to do it the same way.  See my last post on this.  The display of non-
printable characters is dubious.  One can imitate the machine actions
of such characters, but there is no guarantee that any two people will
do it the same way so basing a production system on a particular behavior
and expecting it to remain constant when items within the system are
changed is very dangerous and unlikely to succeed.

Just for the fun of it I just created a file with ASCII chars 1-26 using
vi.  Everythying but ^I and ^J display as digraphs with the "^" symbol.
^I and ^J displayed as their functions, tab and newline.

Looking at this file on Windows, Notepad and Wordpad deal with the
file differently from not onloy vi, but each other..

Handling non-printable characters is an application dependant function
and expecting any consistancy is a bad idea.


bill


-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <7ef21399-cdd5-4298-82e4-904d8a8fa8d7@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jul 1, 2:33�pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> In article <48e1245c-5be3-4136-bde0-a8795bfae...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
>> � � � � AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 11:14�am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
>> >> In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> � � � � AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> >> > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
>> >> >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
>> >> >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
>> >> >> mark when given ascii 26.
>> >> > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>>
>> >> That's vi, not putty. �
>> > You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?
>>
>> Most likely, TPU just passes them and leaves it up to the terminal to
>> decide how to handle them. �The question really is, "What should a
>> terminal do when given an unprintable character?" �In my opinion, it
>> should either perform the action connected to the character, if it is in
>> fact doable (^M, ^J, ^L, ^G, ^I, ^H, etc.) or it should merely ignore
>> them if no action is appropriate. �The problem is when a terminal does
>> something inappropriate (like printing a non-ASCII character) and
>> people get so used to it that they think this is the correct behavior.
>>
>> bill
>>
>> --
>> Bill Gunshannon � � � � �| �de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. �Three wolves
>> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | �and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
>> University of Scranton � |
>> Scranton, Pennsylvania � | � � � � #include <std.disclaimer.h> �
> But it depends on your purpose. TPU replaces non-printable characters
> with the backwards ?. That's what it's designed to do. The TYPE
> command is another matter, as is DUMP.

I suspect that it is not TPU displaying the backwards "?".  If it were,
then Kermit-95 and Putty would both display it as well as that is a valid
character in PC charsets.  I suspect that TPU actually sends the ASCII-26
(and any other unprintable character) to the screen and the terminal was
interpreting it as a backwards "?" which is why, when the terminal was
changed the behavior changed.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

In article <4c3582a2$0$10348$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> George Cook wrote:
> 
>> You do realize that even if the percentage of anti-evolution types in
>> the US was as high as 3%, that that would be 10 million people? 
> 
> The worrysome portion isn't the small number of such people, it is the
> trend of growth, and more importantly, the political power they yield.

One can only hope.  I don't like putting my faith in extremists, but
as Goldwater said "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."
 
>> Don't condemn the entire US for the actions of a small percentage
> 
> This isn't a condemnation of a country. Just a reflexion of a portion of
> a society which has runned amok.

Yes, socialism has run amok.  It's time to put a stop to it.

>> In any case, it is one of the freedoms we value in the US to raise
>> one's children as one sees fit.  It is not the place of the
>> government to decide which beliefs are correct.
> 
> That is correct. They have a right to think what they think, and a
> government can't legally stop them. (just as a government can't
> legislate that you must like and agree with JF :-)
> 
> But isn't it troublesome that this small group of people yield
> sufficient political power to cause school boards to stop teaching
> evolution ?

Your point being?  So a few locales don't teach evolution.  Oh My God,
IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD.
 
> They are like missionaries, trying to spread their gospel. Instead of
> knocking on doors like mormons/jeovahs, they support politicians to get
> their ideas across.

Your point being?  We should lock them up?  We should silence them?
 
> Meanwhile, in France, they are working damned hard to remove any signs
> of religion in their schools. (mostly to prevent females from being
> coerced into wearing veils/burkas at school, but they are using the
> "government must not get involved in religion" as the excuse to ensure
> that schools are religion free.

Talk about fascism.  The US would never allow such discrimination.

> It is just very strange to see people who used to be normal go through
> something which causes them to adopt  15th century thinking that rejects
> any science which they THINK contradicts the bible.

Why is it you think that 1% to 3% of the US population has that much
control when none of the right wing media ever mention anything even
remotely related to religion?

> I agree that you can't prevent these people from thinking or speaking
> what they believe in. But it is not productive to allow a small
> percentage of population to try to prevent a nation from accepting science.

Is it any more productive to try to force communism (aka state socialism)
on a nation?


George Cook

In article <006dcd31-9b32-4c92-8c0f-e17ed592bdf8@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
	Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> On Jun 30, 5:21�pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> JF Mezei wrote:
>> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>>
>> >> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or
>> >> something like that.
>>
>> > I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
>> > completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit a
>> > submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the rescue.
>>
>> > DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
>> > early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
>> > (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsheet
>> > etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
>> > offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
>>
>> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology? �I
>> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC with
>> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and
>> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.
> A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
> DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
> remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> this true?

Does it matter?  I have dealt with a lot of retail that had markups of
200%, 300% and even 500%.  Just finished Microeconomics yesterday.  Got
an 85%.  I can easily understand why a company would price items that
high.  The problem arises when competition shows up and the company thinks
it can continue to charge that amount.  And we all know what happened
to DEC, which pretty much proves what I learned in class.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

Michael Kraemer wrote:
> Dennis Boone schrieb:
>>  > A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
>>  > DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
>>  > remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
>>  > this true?
>>
>> Well, the sale price is of the correct magnitude, at least.
>> I sincerely doubt it cost them $400 to build though -- too small
>> a margin.
>>
>> De
> 
> what? A margin around 500% too small?
> 

It may have been too small for DEC!  DEC seemed to be living in some 
sort of "dream world".  They either would not or could not compete on 
price!  It took a while for them to die but die they did!

In article <006dcd31-9b32-4c92-8c0f-e17ed592bdf8@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>, Alan Feldman <alanfeldman48@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
> DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
> remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> this true?

   CRT terminals with just a wee bit of intelligence, like VT100 were
   fairly expensive, but I don't know how profitable they were.

   There were many competitors willing to build and sell at cheaper
   rates, undercutting DEC's profit.  I saw a MIME 1000 (VT100 clone)
   on my first VAX, and no VT100 until my second VAX.

   And you couldn't use EDT in full screen mode on the cheaper terminals
   we had from ADM.

In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> 
> What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
> universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
> accepted ?

   Actually, some of them get educated in public schools that teach
   evolution starting in the second grade.

   And some of them grow up in churches that teach there is no conflict
   between religion and science.

   There is a hell of a lot of politics involved in what gets taught.

In article <4c359c06$0$285$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, "R.A.Omond" <Roy.Omond@BlueBubble.UK.Com> writes:
> 
> Here's a little hint:
> 
> Just imagine you have to replace a string in an executable for which
> you do not have source.

   Just imagine you have a VAX SCAN source and image, but don't have
   a SCAN compiler.  And you need one of it's routines to look somewhere
   other than the hard coded SYS$LIBRARY.

   So you PATCH the image to replace $ with _.  And if I had ever needed
   to do the same on an Alpha, I would have grabbed the PATCH for Alpha
   that someone outside of DEC supplied.

   But I couldn't VEST the patched VAX image, and VEST was the only way
   to get that code running in a hurry on Alpha, so it's a good thing
   it ran fast enough on VAX.  If I had really needed it, I would have
   tried the third party Alpha PATCH on the VESTed image.

   We also did a _lot_ of custom changes to VMS 2.x with PATCH.  The
   only source we had for VMS was the fiche, we didn't have a BLISS
   compiler, and we couldn't rebuild VMS.

   Over the years DEC supplied all but one of the missing "features". 
   That last one allowed us to run in a completely unsupported hardware
   configuration with a copy of MOUNT that had restrictions disabled
   that the rest of the world really wants enabled.  We had to be
   really carefull with those.

In article <i13q4j$c37$03$1@news.t-online.com>, Michael Kraemer <M.Kraemer@gsi.de> writes:
> 
> what? A margin around 500% too small?
> 

    We're talking DEC, remember?

In article <+6cmCeXj7sF0@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
	koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
> In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> 
>> What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
>> universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifically
>> accepted ?
> 
>    Actually, some of them get educated in public schools that teach
>    evolution starting in the second grade.
> 
>    And some of them grow up in churches that teach there is no conflict
>    between religion and science.

Glad to see someone bring this up.  Some of what people would see as
the most conservative and traditional Christians know and believe this.

There are wackos in all religions.

> 
>    There is a hell of a lot of politics involved in what gets taught.

And a realtively safe bet that the real driving force is profit rather
than belief.

bill
 

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
billg999@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

On Jul 8, 8:41=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <3d80c6c6-dd48-4bc1-8099-399cdbcd4...@q12g2000yqj.googlegroups=
..com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 2:58=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> >> > In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegr=
oups.com>,
> >> > =A0 =A0Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >> On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>> [...]
>
> >> >>>>> The other emulators tried that did not work are:
> >> >>>>> Putty
> >> >>>> PuTTY worked for me! I have version 0.58.
> >> >>> PuTTY 0.60 "gobbles up" the non-printing characters
> >> >>> for me. =A0I would definitely be unhappy with that...
>
> >> >>>> And it works on SmarTerm, too.
> >> >>>>> Teraterm
> >> >>>>> Hummingbird Exceed
> >> >>>>> Kermit-95
> >> >>> It's been a very long time since I used SmarTerm,
> >> >>> and only about 5 years since I used eXceed. =A0At
> >> >>> least with eXceed, and I suspect with SmarTerm,
> >> >>> a <something> was displayed, possibly a solid
> >> >>> rectangle (like a block cursor). =A0It was definitely
> >> >>> usable for TPU, unlike PuTTY.
>
> >> >>> Of couse, I was using eXceed to pop DECterms
> >> >>> on my desktop, and I can do the same with
> >> >>> Reflections-X, which for both products, I copied
> >> >>> the DECwindows font files to the Windows
> >> >>> X-server.
>
> >> >>> =A0 =A0 -Ken
> >> >> I was wrong about PuTTY, as Bill G. pointed out. (Thank you, Bill.)
> >> >> But in another post I showed the results on SmarTerm and it does sh=
ow
> >> >> it correctly. Sorry for the goof.
>
> >> > Except that the argument is that showing a backwards "?" for ASCII-2=
6
> >> > is not necessarily "correct" as that is not what ASCII-26 actually i=
s.
> >> > It may be behavior that people in the VMS world have come to accept,
> >> > but it definitely is not correct.
>
> >> > bill
>
> >> I don't know where to look this up quickly in the documentation that I
> >> have but I thought that [0-31] decimal were all non-printable control
> >> characters. =A0Some terminals can represent characters in this range w=
ith
> >> a glyph representing the function of the character; e.g. "c-sub-r" for
> >> carriage return. =A0It's optional and doesn't happen unless you enable=
 it it.
> > There are some nice ASCII charts quickly findable by Google. Appendix
> > B, I believe, shows a nice one in the VMS user's manual. And yes,
> > characters 0-31 (decimal) are non-printable.
>
> Which was exactly my point. =A0Any visual representation is vendor

What, that you can Google for ASCII tables? OK, you must mean the
paragraph above it. Then why did you reply to my post?

> specific, arbitrary and not to be expected or relied on. =A0Basing

That's what QA is for, no?

> a functional, production system on this kind of behavior is dangerous
> at best but definitely foolish.

I'd still like to know what files these ^Z's are in.

So relying on TPU and actual VT terminals is dangerous?


>
> And blaming other people for not offering support for such foolishness
> is, well, silly.

The guy has a problem and asks how to do a specific task with what and
for what. What should we tell him? To quit and work for you?

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

On 2010-07-08 18:17, AEF wrote:

> I'd still like to know what files these ^Z's are in.

I still don't think they actualy was *in* any file at all.

They was used by TPU to "mark" a non-printable character, not ?

On Jul 8, 8:58 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <7ef21399-cdd5-4298-82e4-904d8a8fa...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 1, 2:33 pm, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <48e1245c-5be3-4136-bde0-a8795bfae...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> >>         AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Jul 1, 11:14 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> >> In article <c844896c-a29c-4d70-b65f-51cc2d2be...@d16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> >>         AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> >> >> > On Jul 1, 10:28 am, DaveG <david.gudew...@abbott.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> Add PowerTerm 525 (came bundled with the Pathworks client last
> >> >> >> century) to the list of emulators that display the reverse question
> >> >> >> mark when given ascii 26.
> >> >> > Vi with PuTTY displays it as ^Z.
>
> >> >> That's vi, not putty.
> >> > You're right. Then what is the problem when using TPU?
>
> >> Most likely, TPU just passes them and leaves it up to the terminal to
> >> decide how to handle them.  The question really is, "What should a
> >> terminal do when given an unprintable character?"  In my opinion, it
> >> should either perform the action connected to the character, if it is in
> >> fact doable (^M, ^J, ^L, ^G, ^I, ^H, etc.) or it should merely ignore
> >> them if no action is appropriate.  The problem is when a terminal does
> >> something inappropriate (like printing a non-ASCII character) and
> >> people get so used to it that they think this is the correct behavior.
>
> >> bill
>
> >> --
> >> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> >> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> >> University of Scranton   |
> >> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> > But it depends on your purpose. TPU replaces non-printable characters
> > with the backwards ?. That's what it's designed to do. The TYPE
> > command is another matter, as is DUMP.
>
> I suspect that it is not TPU displaying the backwards "?".  If it were,
> then Kermit-95 and Putty would both display it as well as that is a valid
> character in PC charsets.  I suspect that TPU actually sends the ASCII-26
> (and any other unprintable character) to the screen and the terminal was
> interpreting it as a backwards "?" which is why, when the terminal was
> changed the behavior changed.

I stand corrected. I believe TPU does, indeed, send a ^Z to the
terminal.

>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

On Jul 8, 9:01=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <006dcd31-9b32-4c92-8c0f-e17ed592b...@e5g2000yqn.googlegroups.=
com>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 5:21=A0pm, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilber...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >> JF Mezei wrote:
> >> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
> >> >> I don't believe that boat ever sailed; it sank in the drydock, or
> >> >> something like that.
>
> >> > I sailed all right. But coming out of the harbour, just after having
> >> > completed great ceremonies to announce all the desktop stuff, it hit=
 a
> >> > submerged mine called "Palmer" and sank without anyone coming to the=
 rescue.
>
> >> > DEC had a complete desktop suite, which, for the late 1980s (or very
> >> > early 1990s), was way ahead of its time and showed great promise.
> >> > (DECwrite,compound document architecture, all-in-1, dec 2020 speadsh=
eet
> >> > etc). This was before Windows 3.1 got credible enough to be used in
> >> > offices, so offices were still using character cell Word on DOS.
>
> >> And what did DEC charge, per seat, for this marvel of technology? =A0I
> >> suspect that the record would show that you could have bought a PC wit=
h
> >> Windows and the basic three apps: word processor, spreadsheet, and
> >> database, for less than DEC charged for licenses, per seat.
> > A Unix veteran (and he was a Vietnam veteran, to boot!) told me that
> > DEC sold VT100s for $1900 and only cost them $400 to build (I might be
> > remembering the numbers wrong, but it was something like that). Is
> > this true?
>
> Does it matter? =A0I have dealt with a lot of retail that had markups of
> 200%, 300% and even 500%. =A0Just finished Microeconomics yesterday. =A0G=
ot
> an 85%. =A0I can easily understand why a company would price items that
> high. =A0The problem arises when competition shows up and the company thi=
nks
> it can continue to charge that amount. =A0And we all know what happened
> to DEC, which pretty much proves what I learned in class. =A0:-)
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

Yes. I simply want to know what the figures are. $400? $800? $1200?

AEF

On Jul 8, 5:36 am, "R.A.Omond" <Roy.Om...@BlueBubble.UK.Com> wrote:
> On 08/07/2010 02:31, Alan Feldman wrote:
>
> > On Jul 7, 11:30 am, "R.A.Omond"<Roy.Om...@BlueBubble.UK.Com>  wrote:
> >> Indeed - I regularly edit executables.  I have even been known to
> >> edit directory files (thanks Hein ;-)  You need to be a little bit
> >> more, ahem, "imaginative".
>
> >> P.s. and it's not just to look at them (that's what DUMP is for :-)
>
> > Why?
>
> Here's a little hint:
>
> Just imagine you have to replace a string in an executable for which
> you do not have source.
>
> Let's say replace all occurrences of DFU_ALLPRIV with INTERACTIVE
> (note that they conveniently happen to be the same length).
>
> Not that *I* would ever do such a thing, but if you are on a system
> which has a licence for XXXXXX, but you need to do a quick fix which
> requires you to compile something with language YYYYYY, and the system
> has no licence for YYYYYY ... I'll leave you to imagine the rest.
> (Yes, I know there are other ways round this :-) ...
>
> As I said, you have to be a little bit more "imaginative".

OK.

>
> And the directory stuff:  I needed a quick hack to introduce the
> problem with directory entries being "out-of-order" to demonstrate
> that DFU could fix these (this was on several systems which require
> huge shenanigans to get up-to-date ECO kits installed, and I needed
> the "fix" pretty damn quick).

OK.

>
> Hein "RMS" van den Heuvel has also demonstrated some "interesting"
> examples of direct manipulation of directories over the years - to
> me they're gold dust.

AEF

On Jul 8, 8:55 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <20a08aac-ab8e-4b43-9c6b-579707baf...@k39g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 2, 8:40 am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> >> In article <475acbf7-a2f4-430c-a5bf-5d17c7a85...@u7g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> >>         Alan Feldman <alanfeldma...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> > On Jul 1, 11:53 am, Ken Fairfield <ken.fairfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Jul 1, 6:20 am, AEF <spamsink2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> [...]
>
[...]
>
> Just for the fun of it I just created a file with ASCII chars 1-26 using
> vi.  Everythying but ^I and ^J display as digraphs with the "^" symbol.
> ^I and ^J displayed as their functions, tab and newline.
>
> Looking at this file on Windows, Notepad and Wordpad deal with the
> file differently from not onloy vi, but each other..

DOSSHELL was a great program that, among many other things, had a
command that let you do a dump of a file. So you could see the LF's,
CR's, and such. I made a table once about which of these programs
accepted LF's, CR's, CR-LF's, and so on, as line terminiators, and
what they wrote as such. Don't have it now, though.

>
> Handling non-printable characters is an application dependant function
> and expecting any consistancy is a bad idea.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
> have had here.  Keep it up.

I am not stereotyping.

The Waco people were wackos. So were the Jim Jones disciples who drank
the kool aid.  Yes, 1st ammendment must apply, but no politician would
ever think of actually supporting their cause.

But in the case of the born again "creation" people (who usually are
also anti-abortion, anti-this and anti-that), some politicians have seen
some politicial value in supporting their causes.

This isn't about stereotyping. It is about a group of people getting a
lot more exposure of political power than they should. (if, as people
here say, they represent such a small proportion of the population).

AEF wrote:

> How can you not keep money into a deposit-only account? How can you
> withdraw money therefrom?


You publish account #1. People send money to it. As soon as you receive
the money, you transfer it to account #2 which you do not publish. So
fraudsters might get access to account #1 but they would find it is
usually empty.

On Jul 8, 11:33=A0am, billg...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:
> In article <+6cmCeXj7...@eisner.encompasserve.org>,
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 koeh...@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) wri=
tes:
>
> > In article <4c354aab$0$13563$c3e8...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfme=
zei.spam...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
> >> What percentage of USA citizens get educated at those top notch
> >> universities where they will understand that evolution is scientifical=
ly
> >> accepted ?
>
> > =A0 =A0Actually, some of them get educated in public schools that teach
> > =A0 =A0evolution starting in the second grade.
>
> > =A0 =A0And some of them grow up in churches that teach there is no conf=
lict
> > =A0 =A0between religion and science.
>
> Glad to see someone bring this up. =A0Some of what people would see as
> the most conservative and traditional Christians know and believe this.
>
> There are wackos in all religions.

And all countries!

>
>
>
> > =A0 =A0There is a hell of a lot of politics involved in what gets taugh=
t.
>
> And a realtively safe bet that the real driving force is profit rather
> than belief.
>
> bill
>
> --
> Bill Gunshannon =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0| =A0de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. =
=A0Three wolves
> billg...@cs.scranton.edu | =A0and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton =A0 |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania =A0 | =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 #include <std.disclaimer.h> =
=A0

AEF

In article <4c3621b6$0$5397$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
>> have had here.  Keep it up.
>
>I am not stereotyping.
>
>The Waco people were wackos. So were the Jim Jones disciples who drank
>the kool aid.  Yes, 1st ammendment must apply, but no politician would
>ever think of actually supporting their cause.

Koresh and Jones were nuts, and leaders of small cult religions. 
You can claim all you want that they were backed by one political
party or another -- pick the one you seem to be so opposed to.  I
doubt either party wanted any association with Koresh and Jones.


>But in the case of the born again "creation" people (who usually are
>also anti-abortion, anti-this and anti-that), some politicians have seen
>some politicial value in supporting their causes.
>
>This isn't about stereotyping. It is about a group of people getting a
>lot more exposure of political power than they should. (if, as people
>here say, they represent such a small proportion of the population).

That's your opinion because you disagree with it.  There are those 
who believe just as strongly the other way.  The 1st Amandment was
drafted to protect all; _NOT_ just those _YOU_ agree with.  For one
so concerned about freedom, you've been pretty pretty quick to deny
it to some.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

Bob Koehler wrote:
> In article <4c3621b6$0$5397$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>
>>> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
>>> have had here.  Keep it up.
>> I am not stereotyping.
>>
>> The Waco people were wackos.
> 
>    According to the Old Testament, Moses got angry and killed half the
>    Jews.  But don't try to call him wacko in the Bible Belt.
> 

According to the Old Testament, God created man in his own image 
(Genesis 1:26).  Does God have an umbilicus (navel, or belly button for 
those of you who don't know Latin)?  If so what does he use it for?  If 
not, why not?

In article <XnDkSpzCTuJ1@eisner.encompasserve.org>, koehler@eisner.nospam.encompasserve.org (Bob Koehler) writes:
>In article <4c3621b6$0$5397$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> 
>>> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
>>> have had here.  Keep it up.
>> 
>> I am not stereotyping.
>> 
>> The Waco people were wackos.
>
>   According to the Old Testament, Moses got angry and killed half the
>   Jews.  But don't try to call him wacko in the Bible Belt.

Improper quoting/attribution.  JF said that; not I

I wonder what would happen if I told the invisible pedestrians in Lakewood
that Moses was a wacko.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <d9CdncLccZAz36vRnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@giganews.com>, "Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilbert88@comcast.net> writes:
>Bob Koehler wrote:
>> In article <4c3621b6$0$5397$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
>>>> have had here.  Keep it up.
>>> I am not stereotyping.
>>>
>>> The Waco people were wackos.
>> 
>>    According to the Old Testament, Moses got angry and killed half the
>>    Jews.  But don't try to call him wacko in the Bible Belt.
>> 
>
>According to the Old Testament, God created man in his own image 
>(Genesis 1:26).  Does God have an umbilicus (navel, or belly button for 
>those of you who don't know Latin)?  If so what does he use it for?  If 
>not, why not?

Same thing we all use it for -- collecting lint.

-- 
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker    VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

All your spirit rack abuses, come to haunt you back by day.
All your Byzantine excuses, given time, given you away.

In article <4c3621b6$0$5397$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca> writes:
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> 
>> Sheesh, talk about stereotyping.  JF, you're losing any credence you may
>> have had here.  Keep it up.
> 
> I am not stereotyping.
> 
> The Waco people were wackos.

   According to the Old Testament, Moses got angry and killed half the
   Jews.  But don't try to call him wacko in the Bible Belt.