f



FS: All manner of Acorn Hardware

Hi all
I'm loosing my room at my parents, which means my collection of Acorn
stuff has to go! This includes but is not limited to some of the
following;

A5000, standard, old college machine
A3000, with external hard drive and a 5 1/4" floppy disc (this machine
i love, grew up with it but have no where to put it), also has a
network card
RISC PC 700, another ex college one, works, think i might have put a
strong arm and PC card in it.
Acorn electron, with tapes and two power supplies
Star dot matrix printer for the acorn, includes at least one ink
ribbon
All kinds of miscellaneous hard ware for a BBC b/master including;
CUB monitor, various tape decks and modems, floppy drives
Pile of Acorn User magazines (about 30 of)
Bigger pile of manuals, probably in the region of 20 manuals and
software packs
Miscellaneous boxes of software on low density floppies

See the following for piccies, this is not everything, and not
everything pictured is available
http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm230/vannystick/
Would prefer for the whole lot to go in one go but don't expect it,
and I would like to see token gestures of cash for them. Not able to
post at the moment, located on the Wirral but can also be collected
from Liverpool with sufficient warning. Needs to go in the next two
weeks, so offered here, then eBay, then the tip!
0
3/19/2008 3:23:16 PM
comp.sys.acorn.hardware 3619 articles. 0 followers. Post Follow

87 Replies
1616 Views

Similar Articles

[PageSpeed] 50

I'd have thought ebay would be best as there has not been that much
Acorn/RISC OS stuff on there for a while, so prices should be good.
Also, if you are going, or can get the stuff along to the Wakefield
Show in 26th April, the charity stall there would be better than a
skip.
Regards,
Martin.

http://www.mathmagical.co.uk
0
mhh (336)
3/20/2008 9:43:38 AM
In message of 20 Mar, Martin <mhh@shrewsbury.org.uk> wrote:

> I'd have thought ebay would be best as there has not been that much
> Acorn/RISC OS stuff on there for a while, so prices should be good.
> Also, if you are going, or can get the stuff along to the Wakefield
> Show in 26th April, the charity stall there would be better than a
> skip.

I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
hardware for some years now.

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/20/2008 10:17:40 AM
In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:

> I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> hardware for some years now.

The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not sold
they have to pay for the disposal

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/20/2008 11:12:57 AM
In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> In message of 20 Mar, Martin <mhh@shrewsbury.org.uk> wrote:

> > I'd have thought ebay would be best as there has not been that much
> > Acorn/RISC OS stuff on there for a while, so prices should be good.
> > Also, if you are going, or can get the stuff along to the Wakefield
> > Show in 26th April, the charity stall there would be better than a
> > skip.

> I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> hardware for some years now.

It's not that, but if left unsold it costs money to dispose of it.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/20/2008 11:26:02 AM
Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> 
> > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> > to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> > competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> > hardware for some years now.
> 
> The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not sold
> they have to pay for the disposal
> 
Not if you have a roped off area and supply sledge hammers :-)

ISTR Acorn doing this at a previous show.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/20/2008 12:35:30 PM
In article <gemini.jy1440008bkrd02ec.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> > The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not sold
> > they have to pay for the disposal
> > 
> Not if you have a roped off area and supply sledge hammers :-)

> ISTR Acorn doing this at a previous show.

Yes but that was with PCs which was fair enough.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/20/2008 2:26:43 PM
In article <gemini.jy1440008bkrd02ec.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray Dawson
<URL:mailto:ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> > > to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> > > competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> > > hardware for some years now.
> > 
> > The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not sold
> > they have to pay for the disposal
> > 
> Not if you have a roped off area and supply sledge hammers :-)
> 
> ISTR Acorn doing this at a previous show.

We sold Acorn some second PCs for the show. At the end of the show someone
from Acorn said "You know those PCs we had from you, they don't seem to be
working any more..."

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
3/20/2008 2:29:18 PM
In message <ant201418bc8pErr@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
          Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <gemini.jy1440008bkrd02ec.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray Dawson
> <URL:mailto:ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>>>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
>>>> to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
>>>> competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
>>>> hardware for some years now.
>>> 
>>> The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not sold
>>> they have to pay for the disposal
>>> 
>> Not if you have a roped off area and supply sledge hammers :-)
>> 
>> ISTR Acorn doing this at a previous show.

> We sold Acorn some second PCs for the show. At the end of the show someone
> from Acorn said "You know those PCs we had from you, they don't seem to be
> working any more..."

I wonder that was....

Regards
-- 
Paul Stewart -  Far Bletchley, Milton Keynes, England.
(msn:sa110@hotmail.com)

Be Bold.  Dare To Be Different.  Use RISC OS (http://www.riscos.com).
It's blue and from outta town - The A9home 
(http://www.advantage6.co.uk/A9hsplash.html).
A9home Compatibility page - 
(http://www.phawfaux.co.uk/a9home/compatibility.asp).
0
paulstewart (757)
3/20/2008 3:12:30 PM
In article <gemini.jy1440008bkrd02ec.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that
> > > are to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled
> > > by a competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have
> > > accepted hardware for some years now.
> > 
> > The problem the charity stalls have that if computer goods are not
> > sold they have to pay for the disposal
> > 
> Not if you have a roped off area and supply sledge hammers :-)

> ISTR Acorn doing this at a previous show.

But this was before there were laws about disposing of electrical
equipment. The cost for dispoal of broken up electrical equipment is the
same as for whole items as are the fines for ignoring the law.

Alan

-- 
alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk
alan.dawes@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC
0
alan.dawes (433)
3/20/2008 7:01:35 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f8327f217alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan P Dawes <alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> But this was before there were laws about disposing of electrical
> equipment. The cost for dispoal of broken up electrical equipment is the
> same as for whole items as are the fines for ignoring the law.

What's wrong with just taking it down to the local tip?
I dumped about 15 monitors at our local tip a few weeks ago, and no one
even noticed me unload them from the car.

-- 
Usenet replies: To contact me, visit www.vigay.com/feedback/

Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
3/20/2008 7:44:26 PM
In article <4f832bde7ainvalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f8327f217alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Alan P Dawes <alan.dawes@argonet.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > But this was before there were laws about disposing of electrical
> > equipment. The cost for dispoal of broken up electrical equipment is the
> > same as for whole items as are the fines for ignoring the law.

> What's wrong with just taking it down to the local tip?

It depends on the staff.  Last year I took two big batteries, from our
amateur theatre's emergency lighting, to put in the recycling bin.  I was
not allowed to leave them, as they were considered 'trade waste'.  As I
left I hear the officious member of staff say "I hope the weight of them
breaks his expensive car." (a Citroen C5)

> I dumped about 15 monitors at our local tip a few weeks ago, and no one
> even noticed me unload them from the car.

keep it up.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/20/2008 8:30:23 PM
In article <4f8330135fcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > What's wrong with just taking it down to the local tip?

> It depends on the staff. 

Absolutely.

I was dumping some stuff yesterday and there was a bloke standing watching
like a hawk what was coming out of some cars.

I was round the corner getting rid of some wood but I've been told off in
the past [1].  If you only had a couple of monitors, say, you'd probably
be OK but 15.......

However, if the left-overs were divided up between 10-20 people and they
all went separately to the tip I don't think there would be a problem.

Stuart

[1]Pieces of tree trunk aren't wood they're "green waste" like lawn
mowings.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/20/2008 9:29:08 PM
Stuart wrote:
> 
> [1]Pieces of tree trunk aren't wood they're "green waste" like lawn
> mowings.
> 

The household waste recycling facility here (read as Tip), won't accept 
tree trunks in green waste, they go in household waste.
0
tom1717 (51)
3/21/2008 10:13:20 AM
In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> hardware for some years now.

This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and pieces?
Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical items, though. Nor
does it need a 'competent electrician' to test them - merely someone
qualified in the PAT process with the correct equipment.

-- 
*The e-mail of the species is more deadly than the mail *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/21/2008 12:29:54 PM
In article <4f8330135fcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> It depends on the staff.  Last year I took two big batteries, from our
> amateur theatre's emergency lighting, to put in the recycling bin.  I was
> not allowed to leave them, as they were considered 'trade waste'.  As I
> left I hear the officious member of staff say "I hope the weight of them
> breaks his expensive car." (a Citroen C5)

> > I dumped about 15 monitors at our local tip a few weeks ago, and no one
> > even noticed me unload them from the car.

> keep it up.

You should have taken them to a scrap yard. The value of lead is high
these days and it would likely more than have paid for your fuel.

-- 
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance. *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/21/2008 12:31:47 PM
In message <4f8387ebf6dave@davenoise.co.uk>
          "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> > to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> > competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted
> > hardware for some years now.
> 
> This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and pieces?
> Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical items, though. Nor
> does it need a 'competent electrician' to test them - merely someone
> qualified in the PAT process with the correct equipment.
> 

If you are qualified for PAT work and have the correct equipment you are, by
definition, a competent electrician.

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy>
0
Graeme (792)
3/21/2008 1:01:36 PM
In article <d1d28a834f%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>, Graeme Wall
<Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f8387ebf6dave@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
>           <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
> >    <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that
> > > are to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled
> > > by a competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have
> > > accepted hardware for some years now.
> > 
> > This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and
> > pieces? Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical items,
> > though. Nor does it need a 'competent electrician' to test them -
> > merely someone qualified in the PAT process with the correct equipment.
> > 

> If you are qualified for PAT work and have the correct equipment you are,
> by definition, a competent electrician.

No, you are competent to PAT test (yes tautology), that is all.  There's a
bit more to being an electrician than that.  Indeed you don't need to be an
electrician to do PAT work anyway, just have been on a one day course.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/21/2008 1:53:22 PM
In message <4f838f901echarles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
          charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <d1d28a834f%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>, Graeme Wall
> <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <4f8387ebf6dave@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
> >           <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
> > >    <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > > > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that
> > > > are to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled
> > > > by a competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have
> > > > accepted hardware for some years now.
> > > 
> > > This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and
> > > pieces? Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical items,
> > > though. Nor does it need a 'competent electrician' to test them -
> > > merely someone qualified in the PAT process with the correct equipment.
> > > 
> 
> > If you are qualified for PAT work and have the correct equipment you are,
> > by definition, a competent electrician.
> 
> No, you are competent to PAT test (yes tautology), that is all.  There's a
> bit more to being an electrician than that.  Indeed you don't need to be an
> electrician to do PAT work anyway, just have been on a one day course.
> 

It's the bit about having the correct equipment...

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy>
0
Graeme (792)
3/21/2008 3:15:52 PM
In article <4f8387ebf6dave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and
> pieces? Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical items,
> though. Nor does it need a 'competent electrician' to test them - merely
> someone qualified in the PAT process with the correct equipment.

The Lions group round here, who do a lot of "recycling" of unwanted
furniture and stuff, got themselves a PAT instrument and someone with some
training so they could sell on electrical items. Even so, the PAT, like
the MOT is an "it was OK at the time of test" test.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/21/2008 4:11:17 PM
In article <b81d97834f%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>,
   Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4f838f901echarles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>
>           charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <d1d28a834f%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>, Graeme Wall
> > <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In message <4f8387ebf6dave@davenoise.co.uk> "Dave Plowman (News)"
> > >           <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > > In article <a0faf7824f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
> > > >    <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > > > > I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods
> > > > > that are to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and
> > > > > labelled by a competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity
> > > > > stalls have accepted hardware for some years now.
> > > > 
> > > > This might apply to 240 volt things but not all the other bits and
> > > > pieces? Some charity shops round here do accept/sell electrical
> > > > items, though. Nor does it need a 'competent electrician' to test
> > > > them - merely someone qualified in the PAT process with the
> > > > correct equipment.
> > > > 
> > 
> > > If you are qualified for PAT work and have the correct equipment you
> > > are, by definition, a competent electrician.
> > 
> > No, you are competent to PAT test (yes tautology), that is all. 
> > There's a bit more to being an electrician than that.  Indeed you
> > don't need to be an electrician to do PAT work anyway, just have been
> > on a one day course.
> > 

> It's the bit about having the correct equipment...

No - an 'electrician' as most think of it would have little or no use for
the specialised PAT equipment. I have all the specialist test gear for
house etc installations but not that for PAT.

-- 
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/21/2008 4:37:17 PM
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> Martin wrote:
> > Also, if you are going, or can get the stuff along to the Wakefield
> > Show in 26th April, the charity stall there would be better than a
>
> I vaguely remember a problem about this: any electrical goods that are
> to be sold, even on a charity stall, must be tested and labelled by a
> competent electrician.  So, IIRC, no charity stalls have accepted

How competent? How tested? I'm a C&G236 PtII electrician,
have all my own teeth... sorry, tools...

--
JGH
0
jgh2 (975)
3/21/2008 9:38:29 PM
Thanks for all the post hi-jacks!


Unfortunately there is a time limit to getting it all moved and eBay
seems to rarely pay for the effort of bothering. We will see, if i get
the time i might ebay i, easier to take it to the tip though!
0
3/21/2008 10:02:43 PM
<vannystick@bxproject.co.uk> wrote:


> See the following for piccies, this is not everything, and not
> everything pictured is available
> http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm230/vannystick/

<snip>

I don't suppose there's a Demon modem in there is there?

Jim
-- 
"Well, well. We've come a long way from the Prime Minister's
 exploding cake." - Adam West, Batman. 

Find me at http://www.UrsaMinorBeta.co.uk
0
jim604 (556)
3/22/2008 9:10:30 AM
In article <4f838f901echarles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> No, you are competent to PAT test (yes tautology), that is all. 
> There's a bit more to being an electrician than that.  Indeed you don't
> need to be an electrician to do PAT work anyway, just have been on a
> one day course.

It depends on the equipment's owner. PATesting may be carried out by an
appointed competent person. There is no mention of any required training
qualification in the legislation - not even one day - nor any laid down
frequency of testing. The training consists of 1. Check all cables for
integrity. 2. Plug device into test equipment and press a button. How
does anyone make that last a day?

Any qualified, experienced electrician will tell you that PATesting can
be a waste of time if an installation is protected by modern safeguards,
which is why I suppose the law on PATesting seems so lax to some. Some
local authorities insist on PATesting by qualified electricians and
annual 'certificates'. They mean sticky labels which can be bought,
filled in and attached by anyone without any testing taking place. What a
great system. Are such councils over-cautious? They can be the same ones
who ask for a 'Working at Height' certificate before you are allowed to
climb a tall ladder. Soon they'll want a 'Sitting on a Chair' certificate.

PATesting equipment can be hired with full instructions. If you can
assemble Ikea furniture or build an Airfix kit it's not at all difficult
(plug it in, push a button, wait a few seconds for the word PASS to
appear on a display) BUT the visual inspection is the most important and
oft-overlooked part. Internal cables which lose their now brittle
insulation can pass a PATest as air is quite a good insulator(!) but are
a bit of a danger to probing fingers. Many a theatre technician has had a
hefty shock from bare cables, touched when changing a lamp. I wouldn't
necessarily trust a qualified electrician over a theatre techie when it
comes to checking my lanterns.

As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

As for the left-overs which won't be accepted by the local tip, I thought
it was usual to simply dump it all in a layby these days.  :-(

-- 
Want better than BT? www.timil.com/usenet.php
Want a genuine but spam-proof address for Usenet? Visit www.invalid.org.uk
The originating email address of this message is invalid: www.timil.com/ask.php

.... "Sweet, above thought I love thee" Troilus & C, Act iii, Sc.1
0
tim155 (1564)
3/22/2008 10:22:57 AM
In article <4f8388183ddave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<URL:mailto:dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f8330135fcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
>    charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > It depends on the staff.  Last year I took two big batteries, from our
> > amateur theatre's emergency lighting, to put in the recycling bin.  I was
> > not allowed to leave them, as they were considered 'trade waste'.  As I
> > left I hear the officious member of staff say "I hope the weight of them
> > breaks his expensive car." (a Citroen C5)
> 
> > > I dumped about 15 monitors at our local tip a few weeks ago, and no one
> > > even noticed me unload them from the car.
> 
> > keep it up.
> 
> You should have taken them to a scrap yard. The value of lead is high
> these days and it would likely more than have paid for your fuel.

10 odd Years ago I took a couple of car batteries to the scrap yard and got
paid for them. I tried a couple of years ago and they said that because of
the cost of disposing of the Acid they didn't now pay:-(
I wonder if the rising lead price has now made them worth more than the cost
of acid disposal.

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
3/22/2008 10:40:22 AM
In article <4f83357449Spambin@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
<URL:mailto:Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f8330135fcharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
>    charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > What's wrong with just taking it down to the local tip?
> 
> > It depends on the staff. 
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> I was dumping some stuff yesterday and there was a bloke standing watching
> like a hawk what was coming out of some cars.
> 
> I was round the corner getting rid of some wood but I've been told off in
> the past [1].  If you only had a couple of monitors, say, you'd probably
> be OK but 15.......
> 
> However, if the left-overs were divided up between 10-20 people and they
> all went separately to the tip I don't think there would be a problem.
> 
> Stuart
> 
> [1]Pieces of tree trunk aren't wood they're "green waste" like lawn
> mowings.

This is where it gets confusing, different councils have different rules,
I'm sure my local amenity tip used to be as yours but last week a took a
tree up to my tip about 8" Dia trunk and was told to put it in with all the
other garden waste, the chap said they have a big chipper where it is taken.



Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
3/22/2008 10:43:52 AM
In message <4f840022aftim@invalid.org.uk>
          Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f838f901echarles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
> <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

[snip]

>  Are such councils over-cautious? They can be the same ones
> who ask for a 'Working at Height' certificate before you are allowed to
> climb a tall ladder. Soon they'll want a 'Sitting on a Chair' certificate.
Not just local councils.

As an example if an engineer for the company I work for has to reach 
up or go on to a ladder , even one step, then they are required to 
have a "Working at Height" certificate.

In the old days I've climb along a building from window ledge to 
window ledge etc. Off course I did my own internal check on if I 
thought it safe but i can't help feeling that things like PAT and 
Working at height are nothing to do with making life safer for workers 
but more about mitigating any risks for a company being sued if 
something goes wrong.

[snip]


> As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
> non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

> As for the left-overs which won't be accepted by the local tip, I thought
> it was usual to simply dump it all in a layby these days.  :-(

Ahh yes another flaw in our Environmental laws which those who do not 
play by rules just laugh at and the rest of us pay the added tax by 
any other name.

-- 
Using a Iyonix PC and RISC OS 5.13, the thinking persons alternative 
operating system to Microsoft Windows.
0
doug.j.webb (651)
3/22/2008 10:51:46 AM
On 22-Mar-2008, Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> BUT the visual inspection is the most important and
> oft-overlooked part. Internal cables which lose their now brittle
> insulation can pass a PATest as air is quite a good insulator(!) but are
> a bit of a danger to probing fingers.

I once re-wired a house in Streatham where the wiring had passed the
standard insulation and earth loop tests only a few weeks previously. When I
lifted some floorboards I found part of the ring main completely bare of any
insulation. It was the old TRF ('cab lyre') rubber sheathed cable which had
been overloaded to such an extent that the insulation had become brittle and
completely disintegrated and fallen away leaving the 3 wires neatly draped
over a series of grooves cut in the joists. The only thing stopping the
wires shorting were the few remaining remnants of rubber here and there
(mainly in the grooves in the joists where gravity didn't have such an
effect) keeping them a couple of millimetres apart.

Testing with instruments is OK but visual inspection is the important part.

-- 
David Holden  -  APDL  -  <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
0
SpamBin5339 (850)
3/22/2008 11:11:37 AM
In message of 22 Mar, Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:

<snip>

> In the old days I've climb along a building from window ledge to 
> window ledge etc. Off course I did my own internal check on if I 
> thought it safe but i can't help feeling that things like PAT and 
> Working at height are nothing to do with making life safer for workers 
> but more about mitigating any risks for a company being sued if 
> something goes wrong.

The problem for a commercial company is insurance.  They (should) insure
themsleves against damage to employees and, indeed, any third party.
The insurance companies then require you to check that all the
installations and working practices are safe.  If you don't make these
checks and deal with any problems found, your insurers may not pay up.

Mind you this does provide a handy income for the likes of building
surveyors and safety specialists.

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/22/2008 11:31:28 AM
In article <4f840022aftim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
>
> As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
> non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

If it used at a place of work, then the Electricity at Work regulations
come into effect.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/22/2008 12:03:04 PM
In article <506806844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> In message of 22 Mar, Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:

> <snip>

> > In the old days I've climb along a building from window ledge to 
> > window ledge etc. Off course I did my own internal check on if I 
> > thought it safe but i can't help feeling that things like PAT and 
> > Working at height are nothing to do with making life safer for workers 
> > but more about mitigating any risks for a company being sued if 
> > something goes wrong.

> The problem for a commercial company is insurance.  They (should) insure
> themsleves against damage to employees and, indeed, any third party.
> The insurance companies then require you to check that all the
> installations and working practices are safe.  If you don't make these
> checks and deal with any problems found, your insurers may not pay up.

You don't even have to be a "commercial company" for this to apply.  My
amateur theatre suffers from pressure from the insurance company as well as
from the local council's H&S inspectors.  The logic is that just because
you don't get paid, you shouldn't have a less safe environment than someone
who does.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/22/2008 12:37:31 PM
In article <4f84094d02charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f840022aftim@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill
>    <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
> > non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

> If it used at a place of work, then the Electricity at Work regulations
> come into effect.

Yes indeed. I meant by non-domestic equipment anything used in the
workplace. It is location which determines its nature. A toaster used at
work is no longer domestic equipment.

-- 
Want better than BT? www.timil.com/usenet.php
Want a genuine but spam-proof address for Usenet? Visit www.invalid.org.uk
The originating email address of this message is invalid: www.timil.com/ask.php

.... "Defend your reputation, or bid farewell to your good life for ever" M W of W Act iii, Sc.2
0
tim155 (1564)
3/22/2008 12:39:16 PM
In a dim and distant universe <4f84094d02charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
> > non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

> If it used at a place of work, then the Electricity at Work regulations
> come into effect.

Computer equipment shouldn't be PAT tested anyway. Most computer equipment
has switched mode PSUs, which will be damaged or not tested correctly using
PAT equipment.

-- 
Usenet replies: To contact me, visit www.vigay.com/feedback/

Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
3/22/2008 1:28:55 PM
In article <4f840c74a2charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
   charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> You don't even have to be a "commercial company" for this to apply.  My
> amateur theatre suffers from pressure from the insurance company as well
> as from the local council's H&S inspectors.  The logic is that just
> because you don't get paid, you shouldn't have a less safe environment
> than someone who does.

I don't think you would describe a church as a commercial company either
but will still have to get stuff tested

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/22/2008 1:51:06 PM
In article <4f840c74a2charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <506806844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>, Tim Powys-Lybbe
>    <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > In message of 22 Mar, Doug Webb <doug.j.webb@btinternet.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> You don't even have to be a "commercial company" for this to apply.  My
> amateur theatre suffers from pressure from the insurance company as
> well as from the local council's H&S inspectors.  The logic is that
> just because you don't get paid, you shouldn't have a less safe
> environment than someone who does.

Volunteers such as this operate in a workplace. They just don't happen to
get paid for it. After all, some amateurs are more professional than
so-called professionals!  ;-)

-- 
Want better than BT? www.timil.com/usenet.php
Want a genuine but spam-proof address for Usenet? Visit www.invalid.org.uk
The originating email address of this message is invalid: www.timil.com/ask.php

.... "I am not of that feather, to shake off my friend when he must need  me" Tim of Ath, Act i, Sc.1
0
tim155 (1564)
3/22/2008 2:08:35 PM
In article <4f84112931invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <4f84094d02charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
>    charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:
> > > As for second-hand Acorns from a charity stall: Caveat Emptor. Only
> > > non-domestic equipment has to have had green PAT stickers.

> > If it used at a place of work, then the Electricity at Work regulations
> > come into effect.

> Computer equipment shouldn't be PAT tested anyway. Most computer
> equipment has switched mode PSUs, which will be damaged or not tested
> correctly using PAT equipment.

No, It needs to be tested with the correct type of test equipment.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 

0
charles7889 (2007)
3/22/2008 2:20:12 PM
In message <4f84112931invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>
          Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:

> Computer equipment shouldn't be PAT tested anyway. Most computer equipment
> has switched mode PSUs, which will be damaged or not tested correctly using
> PAT equipment.

Sorry, Paul, that's not true.  It *is* important, however, to use the
appropriate test levels.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
3/22/2008 9:12:24 PM
In a dim and distant universe <18983b844f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> enlightened us thusly:

> Sorry, Paul, that's not true.  It *is* important, however, to use the
> appropriate test levels.

Well, it was a couple of years ago that I did the 'one day training course'
and got my certificate. :-)

-- 
Usenet replies: To contact me, visit www.vigay.com/feedback/

Life, the Universe, RISC OS Help and Everything - http://www.vigay.com/
Share and discuss ideas or chat about the above - http://forum.vigay.com/
Quality Internet, Domain Registration & Hosting - www.orpheusinternet.co.uk/
0
3/22/2008 11:02:11 PM
In article <4f8445a525invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <18983b844f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> enlightened us thusly:

> > Sorry, Paul, that's not true.  It *is* important, however, to use the
> > appropriate test levels.

> Well, it was a couple of years ago that I did the 'one day training
> course' and got my certificate. :-)

Well if that's what you were told a couple of years ago it was still wrong.

The only test you don't perform is the flash test.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/22/2008 11:36:01 PM
In article <4f840022aftim@invalid.org.uk>,
   Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> PATesting equipment can be hired with full instructions. If you can
> assemble Ikea furniture or build an Airfix kit it's not at all difficult
> (plug it in, push a button, wait a few seconds for the word PASS to
> appear on a display) BUT the visual inspection is the most important and
> oft-overlooked part.

A PAT instrument measures earth continuity, vital in case an internal
fault causes external metal parts to become live. You cannot tell this by
simple visual inspection. It measures insulation resistance, something
which falls slowly over a period of time causing the equipment to become
dangerous, and earth leakage current non of which can be ascertained by
visual inspection alone.

The electrical test is at least as important as the visual inspection.

>Insulation this can fail slowly Internal cables which lose their now
> brittle insulation can pass a PATest as air is quite a good insulator(!)
> but are a bit of a danger to probing fingers. Many a theatre technician
> has had a hefty shock from bare cables, touched when changing a lamp.

Then you need to change your equipment and procedures.

It should never be possible to touch cables internal to equipment with
(especially an adult) fingers and lanterns should be isolated before
opening up to change lamps. Apart from anything else lamps become
extremely hot and if a lamp is plugged into a powered socket the flash of
light and sudden heat will have its own effect on the idiot doing it,
never mind the reduction in lamp life caused by the sudden current surge 

> I
> wouldn't necessarily trust a qualified electrician over a theatre techie
> when it comes to checking my lanterns.

Sounds like your techies aren't to be trusted either, all the electricians
I know would have more sense than to poke fingers into, or open up powered
equipment.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/22/2008 11:59:12 PM
In message of 22 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> A PAT instrument measures earth continuity, vital in case an internal
> fault causes external metal parts to become live. You cannot tell this by
> simple visual inspection. It measures insulation resistance, something
> which falls slowly over a period of time causing the equipment to become
> dangerous, and earth leakage current

Do you happen to know the lowest acceptable insulation resistance in
ohms.  I have recently asked this of two electricians who were doing
these tests and neither knew.

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/23/2008 12:37:54 AM
In message <6c684e844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>
          Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:

> In message of 22 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>> A PAT instrument measures earth continuity, vital in case an internal
>> fault causes external metal parts to become live. You cannot tell this by
>> simple visual inspection. It measures insulation resistance, something
>> which falls slowly over a period of time causing the equipment to become
>> dangerous, and earth leakage current
> 
> Do you happen to know the lowest acceptable insulation resistance in
> ohms.  I have recently asked this of two electricians who were doing
> these tests and neither knew.

So the point of "them" doing the test was???? I suspect the term 
electricians was loosely applied :-(

It depends on the use/voltage/environment.

See: www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/PAT_CodeRevised.pdf

Found this in under 5mins using Google!!!

Martin.


-- 
Martin Wynn, Newport, Shropshire.
A. HTML.
Q. What are the two most annoying things about emails?
0
m.wynn (161)
3/23/2008 1:28:49 AM
In message of 23 Mar, Martin Wynn <m.wynn@SPAMYENOTblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <6c684e844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>
>           Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> 
> > In message of 22 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > <snip>
> > 
> >> A PAT

Portable Appliance Test.

I was not reading this closely enough and thought that some of this
referred to wiring tests.

> >> instrument measures earth continuity, vital in case an internal
> >> fault causes external metal parts to become live. You cannot tell
> >> this by simple visual inspection. It measures insulation
> >> resistance, something which falls slowly over a period of time
> >> causing the equipment to become dangerous, and earth leakage
> >> current
> > 
> > Do you happen to know the lowest acceptable insulation resistance in
> > ohms.  I have recently asked this of two electricians who were doing
> > these tests and neither knew.
> 
> So the point of "them" doing the test was???? I suspect the term 
> electricians was loosely applied :-(

They were indeed electricians withing the meaning of the act and both
had the NICEIC qualification/certification (or whatever those letters
might signify).

> 
> It depends on the use/voltage/environment.
> 
> See: www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/PAT_CodeRevised.pdf
> 
> Found this in under 5mins using Google!!!

Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
electrician as

  "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
  regulations)"

And the recommendation was that the ring main be rewired at the very
economical price of �1700.  The occupiers were told by the electrician
that the wiring was unsafe and that it could cause fires.  Naturally
they were very worried about this.

I have now found an Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations and
on p. 88 it says that wiring should have insulation resistance of no
less than 0.25 M ohms.  So it sounds like the 'low' resistance is 100
times better that the minimum acceptable; not very low then.

How many people understand ohms I wonder?

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/23/2008 2:55:10 AM
In article <4f8445a525invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
   Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> In a dim and distant universe <18983b844f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
>    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> enlightened us thusly:

> > Sorry, Paul, that's not true.  It *is* important, however, to use the
> > appropriate test levels.

> Well, it was a couple of years ago that I did the 'one day training
> course' and got my certificate. :-)

Most SMPS (and other electronics) can use high value resistors and or
small capacitors connected between line, neutral and earth. Mainly to
suppress RFI radiation.  This can confuse PAT equipment if allowance isn't
made for it. And a flash test could well damage things.

-- 
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible? 

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/23/2008 10:00:54 AM
In article <6c684e844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> Do you happen to know the lowest acceptable insulation resistance in
> ohms.  I have recently asked this of two electricians who were doing
> these tests and neither knew.

According to the manual for the Seward PAT1000 tester:

Pass band limit  2M ohms Class 1
                 4M ohms Class 2

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/23/2008 12:44:48 PM
In article <4f844add85Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>  Apart from anything else lamps become extremely hot and if a lamp is
> plugged into a powered socket the flash of light and sudden heat will
> have its own effect on the idiot doing it, never mind the reduction in
> lamp life caused by the sudden current surge 

There is no difference in the current surge caused by plugging a bulb
into a live socket, and that caused by just turning the lamp on at the
switch!

Alan Griffin


0
ajg1 (372)
3/23/2008 12:50:18 PM
In article <4f8481f3efdave@davenoise.co.uk>,
   Dave Plowman (News) <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> Most SMPS (and other electronics) can use high value resistors and or
> small capacitors connected between line, neutral and earth. Mainly to
> suppress RFI radiation.  This can confuse PAT equipment if allowance
> isn't made for it. 

Shouldn't "confuse the tester" but sometimes requires the application of a
little knowledge. Normally mains filters are designed so that the measured
leakage current is less than the PAT limit, however, the Tektronix VM700
video measurement set would always fail a leakage test.

The limit for a "hand-held" appliance is 3mA, higher for bay mounted. Our
tester was set to fail above 2.5mA but the VM700s had "leakages" of,
typically, 3.1mA. This was down to the heavy mains filtering and
considered acceptable. When they were tested the figure was noted and only
if it changed did it give any concern.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/23/2008 1:04:57 PM
In article <4f849175e6ajg@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> There is no difference in the current surge caused by plugging a bulb
> into a live socket, and that caused by just turning the lamp on at the
> switch!

Stage lighting is normally "turned on" via a dimmer or "soft start"
circuit which prevents that surge.

Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/23/2008 2:39:00 PM
Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f844add85Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> >  Apart from anything else lamps become extremely hot and if a lamp is
> > plugged into a powered socket the flash of light and sudden heat will
> > have its own effect on the idiot doing it, never mind the reduction in
> > lamp life caused by the sudden current surge 
> 
> There is no difference in the current surge caused by plugging a bulb
> into a live socket, and that caused by just turning the lamp on at the
> switch!

But there is a big difference between plugging a theatrical lamp into a
powered socket and switching it on via the dimmer rack. The dimmer switch
on voltage is ramped up, although over a fairly short length of time, to
stop the onrush current damaging the lamp.

The flash of light in close proximity to the person plugging it in needs
no comment.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/23/2008 2:58:25 PM
"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f8445a525invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk>,
>    Paul Vigay <invalid-email-address@invalid-domain.co.uk> wrote:
> > In a dim and distant universe <18983b844f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
> >    Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> enlightened us thusly:
> 
> > > Sorry, Paul, that's not true.  It *is* important, however, to use
> > > the appropriate test levels.
> 
> > Well, it was a couple of years ago that I did the 'one day training
> > course' and got my certificate. :-)
> 
> Most SMPS (and other electronics) can use high value resistors and or
> small capacitors connected between line, neutral and earth. Mainly to
> suppress RFI radiation.  This can confuse PAT equipment if allowance
> isn't made for it. And a flash test could well damage things.

Originally the flash test voltage was 2kV for both class 1 and class 2 -
which was suficient to cause damage to SMPSUs and some filter circuits. It
was later reduced, I believe to either 400 or 500V for class 1. Perhaps
Stuart knows. At the time I was doing it, it was still 2kV for class 2,
which is what the double insulation was supposed to withstand.

Cheers,

Ray D
 
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/23/2008 2:58:25 PM
In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.

There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!

Alan Griffin


0
ajg1 (372)
3/23/2008 3:50:05 PM
In message <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>
          Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.
> 
> There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!
> 

The problem is you can momentarily make and break the contacts when inserting
a lamp into a live socket.

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy>
0
Graeme (792)
3/23/2008 4:46:51 PM
In article <gemini.jy6uo800c9oij02ek.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Originally the flash test voltage was 2kV for both class 1 and class 2 -
> which was suficient to cause damage to SMPSUs and some filter circuits.
> It was later reduced, I believe to either 400 or 500V for class 1.
> Perhaps Stuart knows. At the time I was doing it, it was still 2kV for
> class 2, which is what the double insulation was supposed to withstand.

I can only quote from the manual for my tester, others may be different,
especially if changes have been made.

Measuring range 0-6mA
Pass band limit 3mA
Open circuit voltage 1.5kV AC RMS
Class 1 3kV AC RMS
Class 2 (Nothing specified)

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/23/2008 4:57:48 PM
In article <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.

> There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!

Humf!

You just try it.

Or, safer, charge up a decent size electrolytic capacitor and short out
the contacts with a screwdriver.

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/23/2008 5:33:50 PM
In article <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.

> There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!

This surprised me, so I experimented with a light switch and a portable
radio and got a slight "pop" in the earphones when turning the light on
and a louder one when turning it off. My theory is that because the moving
contact in the switch is not moving towards the fixed contact at infinite
speed there is an instant, a fraction of a second before it makes contact,
when the gap between the two is small enough for an arc to form. Assuming
the reliability of both my memory and my O level physics teacher, the gap
would be about 0.08 mm.

Cheers!
Peter A

-- 
Peter M Adams
peter.adams@argonet.co.uk
0
3/23/2008 7:47:06 PM
In message <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>
          Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.
> 
> There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!

There can be a flash when you make contact.  Whether it's truly
worth describing as an arc is debatable.  The small initial
contact area can have a high enough resistance and current
density to melt a small amount of metal, which gives off light
due to the high temperature and gives off sound due to the
suddenly-expanding air.  Does this cause a momentary opening
of the contacts, and does the current continue to pass through
the vapourised metal?  If so, is this an arc?

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
3/23/2008 10:48:40 PM
In article <4f84ab6b68Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
> >    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.

> > There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!

> Humf!

> You just try it.

Have just done so!

> Or, safer, charge up a decent size electrolytic capacitor and short out
> the contacts with a screwdriver.

I was talking about plugging in ordinary household bulbs, not kilowatt
stage lights! That would be stupid because you'd get burnt, not because
you'd get a shock (electric!) When plugging in a bulb you do not touch
any wires or terminals.

A 100 watt bulb will only take about an amp when contact is made. A
capacitor will be many amps. The contacts for a bulb and socket are
solder and brass, whereas a screwdriver is made of steel, has a very
small area and doesn't make good contact.

I've just plugged my anglepoise bulb in with the mains on, and there was
no sign of a spark! (There wasn't when I unplugged it either, but it is
only a 60 watt bulb so is only breaking a quarter of an amp!)

Alan Griffin


0
ajg1 (372)
3/23/2008 11:28:15 PM
In article <4f84cbde0fajg@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> I was talking about plugging in ordinary household bulbs, not kilowatt
> stage lights!

But we /were/ talking about stage lighting!

-- 
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/24/2008 12:11:45 AM
In message <4f84cbde0fajg@argonet.co.uk>
          Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> A 100 watt bulb will only take about an amp when contact is made.

I beg to differ.  A 100 watt bulb on 240 V mains should consume
just under 400 mA when hot.  You normally reckon on a current
when cold of perhaps 10 times the cold current, because tungsten
follows closely the "proportional to absolute temperature" law,
and the running temperature is close to 10 times room temperature.
(Plus or minus a bit depending on the chosen running temperature
and the room temperature at switch-on.)  So the current at switch
on should be nearer 4 A.  Since this is an RMS value, if you just
happen to switch on at the mains peak voltage, you'd expect more
like 5 A instantaneous current.

Dave
0
davehigton (2157)
3/24/2008 1:50:16 PM
In article <4f84cfd987Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f84cbde0fajg@argonet.co.uk>,
>    Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > I was talking about plugging in ordinary household bulbs, not kilowatt
> > stage lights!

> But we /were/ talking about stage lighting!

No! That was introduced AFTER my original comment about there being no
spark on making a circuit!

Alan


0
ajg1 (372)
3/24/2008 11:41:01 PM
In article <63c91a854f.davehigton@dsl.pipex.com>,
   Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In message <4f84cbde0fajg@argonet.co.uk>
>           Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > A 100 watt bulb will only take about an amp when contact is made.

> I beg to differ.  A 100 watt bulb on 240 V mains should consume
> just under 400 mA when hot.  You normally reckon on a current
> when cold of perhaps 10 times the cold current, because tungsten
> follows closely the "proportional to absolute temperature" law,
> and the running temperature is close to 10 times room temperature.
> (Plus or minus a bit depending on the chosen running temperature
> and the room temperature at switch-on.)  So the current at switch
> on should be nearer 4 A.  Since this is an RMS value, if you just
> happen to switch on at the mains peak voltage, you'd expect more
> like 5 A instantaneous current.

O.K. But it only lasts for microseconds, and I still maintain that you
don't get sparks on making the circuit.

The peak voltage of the mains is about 340 volts.
The breakdown voltage through the air is about 30,000 volts/cm.
340 volts is about 0.01 of this, so you would expect the mains to arc
across about 0.1 mm!
If you approach the two contacts at 1 cm/sec you could expect to get an
arc for the last 1/1000 of a second (if you happened to do it at peak
voltage, which is unlikely), but in fact you would approach them quicker
than this. The arc would be negligible!  QED

Alan


0
ajg1 (372)
3/24/2008 11:53:12 PM
Dave Higton <davehigton@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> In message <4f84a1eb95ajg@argonet.co.uk>
>           Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <4f849b69afSpambin@argonet.co.uk>,
> >    Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Lamp socket contacts aren't designed to handle the arc which results
> > > as the lamp makes contact, neither are the contacts on the lamp.
> > 
> > There is no arc when you make contact - only when you break!
> 
> There can be a flash when you make contact.  Whether it's truly
> worth describing as an arc is debatable.  The small initial
> contact area can have a high enough resistance and current
> density to melt a small amount of metal, which gives off light
> due to the high temperature and gives off sound due to the
> suddenly-expanding air.  Does this cause a momentary opening
> of the contacts, and does the current continue to pass through
> the vapourised metal?  If so, is this an arc?

Which is how gas explosions have been caused by turning ON a light switch
in a gas filled room.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/25/2008 9:04:36 AM
In article <4f8550df3aajg@argonet.co.uk>, Alan Griffin
<ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f84cfd987Spambin@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
>    <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f84cbde0fajg@argonet.co.uk>, Alan Griffin
> >    <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > > I was talking about plugging in ordinary household bulbs, not
> > > kilowatt stage lights!

> > But we /were/ talking about stage lighting!

> No! That was introduced AFTER my original comment about there being no
> spark on making a circuit!

Is this based at all on the false misconception that an OP 'owns' a
thread and that it will stay on topic?

That's made my day, thanks.

-- 
Want better than BT? www.timil.com/usenet.php
Want a genuine but spam-proof address for Usenet? Visit www.invalid.org.uk
The originating email address of this message is invalid: www.timil.com/ask.php

.... "Better three hours too soon than a minute too late" M W of W, Act ii, Sc.2
0
tim155 (1564)
3/26/2008 7:49:22 PM
In article <gemini.jy6ufj00c2zlt02ek.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>, Ray
Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <4f844add85Spambin@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> >    <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >  Apart from anything else lamps become extremely hot and if a lamp
> > > is plugged into a powered socket the flash of light and sudden heat
> > > will have its own effect on the idiot doing it, never mind the
> > > reduction in lamp life caused by the sudden current surge 
> > 
> > There is no difference in the current surge caused by plugging a bulb
> > into a live socket, and that caused by just turning the lamp on at
> > the switch!

> But there is a big difference between plugging a theatrical lamp into a
> powered socket and switching it on via the dimmer rack. The dimmer
> switch on voltage is ramped up, although over a fairly short length of
> time, to stop the onrush current damaging the lamp.

[Snip]

That's true; once the racks of dimmers have started up, the board
finished its self-test, and the lanterns and their lamps trickled a
little power: the pre-heat is running. Close inspection will reveal that
many filaments glow a little. However, a professional techie would NEVER
bring the faders up right away. Much better for lamp-life to let the
whole rig warm up for a while before blowing lamps! This is particularly
true in cold halls with lanterns which haven't been used for a while.
Many people learn the hard way: let the rig warm up; spend less time up a
ladder.

-- 
Want better than BT? www.timil.com/usenet.php
Want a genuine but spam-proof address for Usenet? Visit www.invalid.org.uk
The originating email address of this message is invalid: www.timil.com/ask.php

.... "Wisely and slow; they stumble who run fast" Rom & Jul, Act ii, Sc.3
0
tim155 (1564)
3/26/2008 8:05:05 PM
In article <4f8550df3aajg@argonet.co.uk>,
   Alan Griffin <ajg@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > But we /were/ talking about stage lighting!

> No! That was introduced AFTER my original comment about there being no
> spark on making a circuit!

I think you need to go back and read the posting history

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/26/2008 8:22:41 PM
In message <4f84a81edcSpambin@argonet.co.uk>
          Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <gemini.jy6uo800c9oij02ek.ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk>,
>    Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>> Originally the flash test voltage was 2kV for both class 1 and class 2 -
>> which was suficient to cause damage to SMPSUs and some filter circuits.
>> It was later reduced, I believe to either 400 or 500V for class 1.
>> Perhaps Stuart knows. At the time I was doing it, it was still 2kV for
>> class 2, which is what the double insulation was supposed to withstand.

> I can only quote from the manual for my tester, others may be different,
> especially if changes have been made.

> Measuring range 0-6mA
> Pass band limit 3mA
> Open circuit voltage 1.5kV AC RMS
> Class 1 3kV AC RMS
> Class 2 (Nothing specified)

At one of the schools I support I used all 15 laptops on mains power 
one week last year. The next week I went in, the day after the PAT 
testers. 4 Laptop PSUs were no longer working, and 4 more failed 
during the next two weeks.

I queried this with the manager of the company, whose initial response 
was "that engineer is no longer working for us". He then offered to 
send me the PAT test results for the affected equipment, which showed 
that the PAT test numbers didn't match the descriptions - several 
units had the numbers from the cables. We could not *prove* that the 
PAT testing destroyed the PSUs, but it must be significant that 
wall-warts fail much more often in the 4 weeks after PAT testing, than 
during the rest of the year.

It relies on the person doing the testing to recognise that the "fat 
mains plug" is a switched-mode PSU.

They also passed a mains lead without a fuse fitted, and stuck a pass 
sticker over the air inlet of a ceiling-mounted projector, causing the 
lamp to fail two weeks later. Hang on there - Portable Equipment - 
ceiling mounted?

Expensive, and not at all funny.

Name of company supplied privately on request.

-- 
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
0
alan280 (264)
3/26/2008 11:30:35 PM
In message <a6f95a844f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>
          Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:

> In message of 23 Mar, Martin Wynn <m.wynn@SPAMYENOTblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
> wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
> insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
> electrician as

>   "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
>   regulations)"

I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

only 10^6 difference...

> And the recommendation was that the ring main be rewired at the very
> economical price of �1700.  The occupiers were told by the electrician
> that the wiring was unsafe and that it could cause fires.  Naturally
> they were very worried about this.

> I have now found an Electrician's Guide to the Building Regulations and
> on p. 88 it says that wiring should have insulation resistance of no
> less than 0.25 M ohms.  So it sounds like the 'low' resistance is 100
> times better that the minimum acceptable; not very low then.

> How many people understand ohms I wonder?



-- 
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
0
alan280 (264)
3/26/2008 11:33:19 PM
In article <e69657864f.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:
> At one of the schools I support I used all 15 laptops on mains power 
> one week last year.

<SNIP tale of woe>

What a load of tossers!

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/27/2008 12:09:20 AM
In article <9cd657864f.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]

> > How many people understand ohms I wonder?

<Dick Van dyke school of Cockney>

Ohms is wot people live in...

<\>

Dave S

-- 

0
dave128 (1212)
3/27/2008 6:15:24 AM
On 26-Mar-2008, Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:

> > Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
> > wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
> > insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
> > electrician as
>
> >   "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
> >   regulations)"
>
> I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

Then I'm very gald you're not doing the testing  :-)

-- 
David Holden  -  APDL  -  <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
0
SpamBin5339 (850)
3/27/2008 7:21:28 AM
In article <9cd657864f.Alan.Adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk>,
   Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:
> > Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
> > wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
> > insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
> > electrician as

> >   "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
> >   regulations)"

> I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

> only 10^6 difference...

Insulation reading?

-- 
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.  

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/27/2008 8:58:00 AM
In article <65107sF2d2e3kU1@mid.individual.net>,
   David Holden <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

> Then I'm very gald you're not doing the testing  :-)

I suspect (hope) he's thinking of earth loop impedance rather than
insulation resistance!

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/27/2008 8:59:12 AM
Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> > Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
> > wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
> > insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
> > electrician as
> 
> >   "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
> >   regulations)"
> 
> I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

No - insulation resistance should be high. It used to be 47 Mohms when I
was doing it so 22 Mohms is lower than it should be.

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/27/2008 9:55:57 AM
In message <4f868ba5ceSpambin@argonet.co.uk>
          Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <65107sF2d2e3kU1@mid.individual.net>,
>    David Holden <SpamBin@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)

>> Then I'm very gald you're not doing the testing  :-)

> I suspect (hope) he's thinking of earth loop impedance rather than
> insulation resistance!

That's right, I�was.


-- 
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
alan.adams@orchard-way.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/
0
alan280 (264)
3/27/2008 7:22:47 PM
In message of 27 Mar, Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Alan Adams <alan@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > Agreed.  But what I had been looking for were the limits for house
> > > wiring as this is where I had a reported problem that a circuit had an
> > > insulation resistance of 22 M ohms which was then reported by one
> > > electrician as
> > 
> > >   "low (albeit not below absolute acceptable minimum as per
> > >   regulations)"
> > 
> > I suspect this should be 22mOhms (milliOhms) not 22 MOhms (MegOhms)
> 
> No - insulation resistance should be high. It used to be 47 Mohms when I
> was doing it so 22 Mohms is lower than it should be.

Fascinating how things change.  I have now acquired a copy of the IEE
handbook "The Electricians Guide to Building Regulations" pub 2006 (the
latest version, I assume, as I only bought it off them a few days ago).
On page 88 it has a table which is:

  Circuit Nominal         Test voltage     Minimum insulation
  Voltage                 (V d.c.)         resistance (M ohms)
  ===============         ============     ===================

  SELV and PELV           250              0.25

There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can you
account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV' mean.)

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/27/2008 11:26:57 PM
In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> Fascinating how things change.  I have now acquired a copy of the IEE
> handbook "The Electricians Guide to Building Regulations" pub 2006 (the
> latest version, I assume, as I only bought it off them a few days ago).

It might not be - the 17th edition came out recently.

-- 
*When the going gets tough, use duct tape

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/28/2008 12:18:26 AM
In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can you
> account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV' mean.)

Well, ELV generally means "Extra low voltage" this is less than mains
which is "low voltage" (less than 50V DC I think) hence the 250V test
voltage which would be greater than the normal operating voltage

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/28/2008 12:19:18 AM
In message of 28 Mar, "Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > Fascinating how things change.  I have now acquired a copy of the IEE
> > handbook "The Electricians Guide to Building Regulations" pub 2006 (the
> > latest version, I assume, as I only bought it off them a few days ago).
> 
> It might not be - the 17th edition came out recently.

Can you tell me the publication date?  This edition does not say which
one it is, though it does say it was reprinted in May 2006.

More seriously, does it give a different figure for min leakage
resistance?

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/28/2008 2:17:49 AM
In message of 28 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can you
> > account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV' mean.)
> 
> Well, ELV generally means "Extra low voltage" this is less than mains
> which is "low voltage" (less than 50V DC I think) hence the 250V test
> voltage which would be greater than the normal operating voltage

There is rather a large safety issue at stake here. Can you say which is
the minimum accpetable leakage resistance: 0.25 or 47 MOhms and give
some reference to a written standard?  It may be that this test in the
Guide has nothing to do with the wiring's leakage resistance and if so,
can you - or someone - explain?  


-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/28/2008 2:21:56 AM
In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> Fascinating how things change.  I have now acquired a copy of the IEE
> handbook "The Electricians Guide to Building Regulations" pub 2006 (the
> latest version, I assume, as I only bought it off them a few days ago).
> On page 88 it has a table which is:

>   Circuit Nominal         Test voltage     Minimum insulation
>   Voltage                 (V d.c.)         resistance (M ohms)
>   ===============         ============     ===================

>   SELV and PELV           250              0.25

> There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can you
> account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV' mean.)


IEEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition   p158
  BS 7671:2008   (1st Jan 2008)

  Circuit Nominal         Test voltage     Minimum insulation
  Voltage                 (V d.c.)         resistance (M ohms)
  ===============         ============     ===================#

  SELV and PELV        250               >=0.50

  Upto 500 V with excption
   to above                     500               >=1.00
   
  Above 500 V            1000               >=1.00


PELV Protected Extra Low Voltage

HTH

-- 
Mitch

terminal_crazy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk
www.sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk/terminal_crazy

0
3/28/2008 6:18:34 AM
Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:

> In message of 28 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
> >    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > > There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can
> > > you account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV'
> > > mean.)
> > 
> > Well, ELV generally means "Extra low voltage" this is less than mains
> > which is "low voltage" (less than 50V DC I think) hence the 250V test
> > voltage which would be greater than the normal operating voltage
> 
> There is rather a large safety issue at stake here. Can you say which is
> the minimum accpetable leakage resistance: 0.25 or 47 MOhms and give
> some reference to a written standard?  It may be that this test in the
> Guide has nothing to do with the wiring's leakage resistance and if so,
> can you - or someone - explain?  

I put 'selv testing' into google and the first in the list is

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.5.4.htm

Cheers,

Ray D
0
Ray6068 (3130)
3/28/2008 8:38:05 AM
In message of 28 Mar, Ray Dawson <ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> 
> > In message of 28 Mar, Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
> > >    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > > > There is a remarkable contrast between 0.25 MOhms and 47 MOhms.  Can
> > > > you account for this?   (I have no idea what 'SELV' and 'PELV'
> > > > mean.)
> > > 
> > > Well, ELV generally means "Extra low voltage" this is less than mains
> > > which is "low voltage" (less than 50V DC I think) hence the 250V test
> > > voltage which would be greater than the normal operating voltage
> > 
> > There is rather a large safety issue at stake here. Can you say which is
> > the minimum accpetable leakage resistance: 0.25 or 47 MOhms and give
> > some reference to a written standard?  It may be that this test in the
> > Guide has nothing to do with the wiring's leakage resistance and if so,
> > can you - or someone - explain?  
> 
> I put 'selv testing' into google and the first in the list is
> 
> http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.5.4.htm

I can't work out if this means that this is a legitimate test of leakage
resistance and whether 0.25 MOhms is the current minimum resistance. Can
you assist?

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/28/2008 9:24:52 AM
In message of 28 Mar, Terminal Crazy
<Terminal_Crazy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <7017db864f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
>    Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> > Fascinating how things change.  I have now acquired a copy of the IEE
> > handbook "The Electricians Guide to Building Regulations" pub 2006 (the
> > latest version, I assume, as I only bought it off them a few days ago).

> IEEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition   p158
>   BS 7671:2008   (1st Jan 2008)

Aha: the Wiring regs of the 16th edn and the Electricians Guide of 2006
are not the same publication.  Thanks.
 
>   Circuit Nominal         Test voltage     Minimum insulation
>   Voltage                 (V d.c.)         resistance (M ohms)
>   ===============         ============     ===================#
> 
>   SELV and PELV        250               >=0.50
> 
>   Upto 500 V with excption
>    to above                     500               >=1.00
>    
>   Above 500 V            1000               >=1.00

This appears to be the same table as in the Electricians Guide
and confirms to me that the minimum acceptable resistance is indeed 0.25
MOhms.  I do hope this is right as I am berating the firm who said that
22 MOhms was low and meant the wiring needed replacing.

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
0
tim222 (1366)
3/28/2008 9:30:55 AM
In article <0e6312874f.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>,
   Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:
> >   Circuit Nominal         Test voltage     Minimum insulation
> >   Voltage                 (V d.c.)         resistance (M ohms)
> >   ===============         ============     ===================#
> > 
> >   SELV and PELV        250               >=0.50
> > 
> >   Upto 500 V with excption
> >    to above                     500               >=1.00
> >    
> >   Above 500 V            1000               >=1.00

> This appears to be the same table as in the Electricians Guide
> and confirms to me that the minimum acceptable resistance is indeed 0.25
> MOhms. 

No, the above table says that up to 500V, with the exception of "Extra low
voltage circuits" it should be >=1Mohm

> I do hope this is right as I am berating the firm who said that
> 22 MOhms was low and meant the wiring needed replacing.

In my personal view 1M is on the low side and I would be concerned if my
house wiring was that low but 22Mohm seems fine.

ELV is a voltage not exceeding 50V rms

-- 
Stuart Winsor

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
0
Spambin (1454)
3/28/2008 10:45:37 AM
In article <4f871939c6Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> ELV is a voltage not exceeding 50V rms


The warning on my Fluke DVM starts flashing at approx 30 volts. Wonder if
this 'safe' voltage varies from country to country?

-- 
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
                  To e-mail, change noise into sound.
0
dave137 (3026)
3/28/2008 2:12:47 PM
In article <4f871939c6Spambin@argonet.co.uk>,
   Stuart <Spambin@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In my personal view 1M is on the low side and I would be concerned if my
> house wiring was that low but 22Mohm seems fine.
22M is fairly low depending on the cabling but ...

1M across 220V is only allowing  a quarter of a mA
22M is only passing 100 of a mA  and is well above the limit.

Most of my cabling measures >1000M on my meter but some of the longer cable
runs (near the max length allowable drop to around >700M to 750M

It also depends on what & how they have tested the cabling. If the socket
outlets have neon indicators on them this will affect the values. They may
also have done a modified IR test. OTTOMH i'm not sure if this would have
any variation in the results but the result should still be valid.

HTH

-- 
Terminal_Crazy

Mitch - 1995 Z28 LT1 M6          terminal_crazy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk
Lancashire England          http://www.sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk/terminal_crazy/
0
3/29/2008 9:23:35 PM
On 29-Mar-2008, Terminal Crazy <Terminal_Crazy@sand-hill.freeserve.co.uk>
wrote:

> It also depends on what & how they have tested the cabling. If the socket
> outlets have neon indicators on them this will affect the values.

No, it wouldn't. IEE regs specify that *all* switches must be 'off' when the
test is carried out and neons on sockets etc. are placed after the switch so
wouldn't affect the result.However, if the tester found a low insulation
resistance in the installation as a whole then what he should have done next
was to carry out a test on each individual circuit to determine if it was a
general problem (unlikely, unless it's very old) or which actual circuit was
causing the problem. However, in most cases the reason for the test in the
first place is to inform the occupier that their wiring is sub-standard and
give them a quote for a re-wire, the actual results are irrelevant.

*Never* trust anything told to you by companies who offer a "free" check,
especially if they're leafleting. It could turn out to be a very expensive
form of "free".

-- 
David Holden  -  APDL  -  <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
0
SpamBin5339 (850)
3/30/2008 6:22:26 AM
Reply: