f



Hard disc sick?

Hello,

Don't know if this is a hardware issue or if it's just s/ware causing
unnescessary concern.  My HD verifys 100% perfect but I have recently
strarted getting disc error messages when I load MPro.  Nothing seems to get
corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the errors
but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my HD's about to
expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.

Any one any thoughts?

Pity there isn't a SATA podule available, I've got an 80GB SATA drive with
about 3 hrs. use on it just sitting in a box.

Also when I've got some money I'll be looking out for a new IDE podule as
that Simtec one just isn't doing the job, am only getting onboard IDE
performance levels out of it - think it's simply not working with DMA.  If
any one has a decent IDE card for sale I'd be interested to hear from them.

Cheers, Mike....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/2/2005 12:55:16 PM
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In message <7d2abf644d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>
          Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

> expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
> re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
> periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.

You don't say if you've tried DiscKnight.

> Pity there isn't a SATA podule available, I've got an 80GB SATA drive with
> about 3 hrs. use on it just sitting in a box.

It'd be silly.  A SATA interface podule would almost certainly cost much
more than a replacement 80GB non-SATA drive (about 35UKP for a Maxtor
these days), and offer no tangible benefits on a RiscPC apart from being
able to physically connect one.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RISC OS C Programming                  | http://www.riscos.info/
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/2/2005 1:10:04 PM
On 2 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> Don't know if this is a hardware issue or if it's just s/ware causing
> unnescessary concern.  My HD verifys 100% perfect but I have recently
> strarted getting disc error messages when I load MPro.  Nothing seems to
> get corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the
> errors but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my HD's about
> to expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
> re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
> periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.
> 
> Any one any thoughts?

Exact error messages?

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/2/2005 2:43:11 PM
In message <77b4c0644d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <7d2abf644d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>
>           Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

After replying to this by email by accident (sorry Peter) the proper post.

> > expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
> > re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
> > periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.
> 
> You don't say if you've tried DiscKnight.

I have not tried DiscKnight as I don't own a copy but now you mention it and
make me think about it am I right in saying a crippled diagnostic only demo
version exists?  I can't remember.  I'll do a Google in a mo.
 
> > Pity there isn't a SATA podule available, I've got an 80GB SATA drive with
> > about 3 hrs. use on it just sitting in a box.
> 
> It'd be silly.  A SATA interface podule would almost certainly cost much

I wasn't being serious but thinking about discs reminded me of the SATA
drive.  Would be good if Iyonix II supported SATA and RAID on it too.

> more than a replacement 80GB non-SATA drive (about 35UKP for a Maxtor

I think I will order a new HD when I next build a PC for a client just to be
safe and retire the old one or stick it in something non-critical.

Cheers, Mike....


-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/2/2005 7:26:48 PM
On 2 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <77b4c0644d.peter@chocky.org>
>           Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> > You don't say if you've tried DiscKnight.
> 
> I have not tried DiscKnight as I don't own a copy but now you mention it and
> make me think about it am I right in saying a crippled diagnostic only demo
> version exists?  I can't remember.  I'll do a Google in a mo.

http://www.armclub.org.uk/products/discknight

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/2/2005 7:48:31 PM
In message <b10bc9644d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
          druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 2 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> > Don't know if this is a hardware issue or if it's just s/ware causing
> > unnescessary concern.  My HD verifys 100% perfect but I have recently
> > strarted getting disc error messages when I load MPro.  Nothing seems to
> > get corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the
> > errors but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my HD's about
> > to expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
> > re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
> > periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.
> > 
> > Any one any thoughts?
> 
> Exact error messages?

Drat!  Was hoping no one would ask;-) I always think "I really should have
noted that" after I click past it.  I will take a note next time I get one. 
I've not been the sharpest tool in the box the last month or two, normally
I'd have done that without thinking but not now.  The re-initialising just
happens with no error though.

Mike.....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/2/2005 11:37:31 PM
In message <1000e5644d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
          druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 2 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In message <77b4c0644d.peter@chocky.org>
> >           Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> > > You don't say if you've tried DiscKnight.
> > 
> > I have not tried DiscKnight as I don't own a copy but now you mention it and
> > make me think about it am I right in saying a crippled diagnostic only demo
> > version exists?  I can't remember.  I'll do a Google in a mo.
> 
> http://www.armclub.org.uk/products/discknight
> 

Thanks.



DiscKnight 1.47 (09-Jan-2005) [32bit] *CHECK ONLY*

Arguments: IDEFS 4 

Boot Block - Defect List
  Boot Block CRC is OK

Map 1 - Checksums
  Zone Checks  OK
  Cross checks OK
Map 2 - Checksums
  Zone Checks  OK
  Cross checks OK
Map - Disc Record
  Map disc record matches boot record
* Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
* Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1

Checking directory structure
...................................
[snip a whole load of "."]

* 2 objects in map not referenced by directories


> File ?.File00019A08 found

> File ?.File00027228 found


---------------------------------------------
    Disc is bad, 4 faults found
    Run a repair (-f and -u flags) to fix
---------------------------------------------


Mike.....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/2/2005 11:43:01 PM
Michael Hambley  <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

>Don't know if this is a hardware issue or if it's just s/ware causing
>unnescessary concern.  My HD verifys 100% perfect but I have recently
>strarted getting disc error messages when I load MPro.  Nothing seems to get

You keep backups, right? :)

>corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the errors
>but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my HD's about to
>expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
>re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
>periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.

One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility - the 
IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become unreliable
(I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an obvious link).
This tends to lead to strange error messages, then the drive getting junk
data written to it on large transfers, then total IDE bus failure.  Ideally,
you want to make sure that you have adequate backups - and that you're not 
overwriting them with duff data!  (I lost a several weeks worth of email
to the first one that went, many years ago now, because of this....  The
rest of the machine still works fine, and is celebrating ten happy years:)

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
5/3/2005 2:07:32 PM
In article <4778fa644d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
<URL:mailto:mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

> * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
> * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1

> * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
> 
> 
> > File ?.File00019A08 found
> 
> > File ?.File00027228 found

If you DiscKnight does it give consistant errors?

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
5/3/2005 3:18:09 PM
On 3 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [DiscKnight Check] 
>
> * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
> * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
> 
> * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories

You've got two minor faults, resulting in a small amount of data being
inaccessible. They wont cause any immediate problems using the disc, but
I do recommend you run a repair with the full version of DiscKnight, before
the disc is over 75% used.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/3/2005 5:25:03 PM
On Tue, 03 May 2005 15:07:32 +0100, Chris Joseph wrote:
> One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility - the 
> IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become unreliable
> (I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an obvious link).

Can cabling / electrical interference be an issue on RPCs? Bad cabling or
electrical noise can certainly cause problems on machines that drive hard
disks much harder than I suspect the RPC does - and lead to these sorts
of symptoms where a flat non-random verify works just fine but things go
pear-shaped under real conditions.

Just a thought anyway; quite possibly not an issue where the RPC is
concerned. Just seems odd that the verify works OK...

cheers

Jules

0
5/3/2005 6:52:18 PM
In message <mpq*PfENq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> 
> Michael Hambley  <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> >Don't know if this is a hardware issue or if it's just s/ware causing
> >unnescessary concern.  My HD verifys 100% perfect but I have recently
> >strarted getting disc error messages when I load MPro.  Nothing seems to get
> 
> You keep backups, right? :)

Yes, although perhaps not as up to date as I should.  I have one about 2
months old on CD and I have just shovelled everything accross the network to
the M$ box.

> >corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the errors
> >but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my HD's about to
> >expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as also it keeps on
> >re-initialising during use, certainly never used to park the heads after
> >periods of inactivity which is what it appears to be doing now.
> 
> One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility - the 
> IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become unreliable
> (I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an obvious link).
> This tends to lead to strange error messages, then the drive getting junk
> data written to it on large transfers, then total IDE bus failure.  Ideally,

I'm running on a Simtec IDE podule which has not been satisfactory for some
time now.  I'm convinced it's not using DMA and I only get 2.5 to 3MB/s out
of it which is much the same as the onboard IDE.

I am looking to replace it with something else (a Blitz perhaps) when I can
afford it but that'll be even further off if I have to replace the HD first.

> you want to make sure that you have adequate backups - and that you're not 
> overwriting them with duff data!  (I lost a several weeks worth of email
> to the first one that went, many years ago now, because of this....  The

I can immagine, my !Boot is over 600MB now mainly due to !NewsDir.

> rest of the machine still works fine, and is celebrating ten happy years:)

Don't know about yours but mime wasn't new when I got it so it's seen quite a
bit of life over the years, not to mention transporting 300 miiles to and
from Uni. 6 times a year for 4 years!  But then again it's a bit of a
mongrel now as that's not the origional MoBo that was in that case to start
with, swapped it when I was having some display problems a couple of years
ago, turned out to be the RAM in the end (but not the VRAM though).

Mike.....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/4/2005 8:59:51 AM
In message <ant0315090b0pErr@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
          Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <4778fa644d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> <URL:mailto:mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
> > * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
> 
> > * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
> > 
> > 
> > > File ?.File00019A08 found
> > 
> > > File ?.File00027228 found
> 
> If you DiscKnight does it give consistant errors?
> 

That I havn't tried.  It's a pretty obvious thing to do but didn't occur to
me, doh!  I will run it a few times an let you know. 

Mike.....


-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/4/2005 9:03:08 AM
In message <7ab35b654d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
          druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 3 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > [DiscKnight Check] 
> >
> > * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
> > * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
> > 
> > * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
> 
> You've got two minor faults, resulting in a small amount of data being
> inaccessible. They wont cause any immediate problems using the disc, but

Do you know what those faults are?  Wonder if they're magnetic or
mechanical.  If mechanical then I'll ditch the disc as soon as but if
magnetic I can perhaps copy everything off in a fresh back up and low lever
format the disc then copy all my data back.

> I do recommend you run a repair with the full version of DiscKnight, before
> the disc is over 75% used.

It's strange you mention the ammount used, it reminds me of the last unusual
usage of the disc I've done which was a month or so ago.  I havn't been
getting the speed out of the i/f I used to for much longer though.  The disc
(13.6GB, 12GB formatted E+) had about 2GB free then I cleared a whole load
of stuff off it onto the DarkSide box for burning onto CD (I don't normally
burn under RO any more as I can only get 3x out of it due to the IDE card
not working properly any more) and now it has about 6GB free.  Could this
have triggered something?

Mike......

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/4/2005 9:07:23 AM
In article <ant0315090b0pErr@client.cjemicros.co.uk>, Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:chris@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4778fa644d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> <URL:mailto:mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3
> > * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
> 
> > * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
> > 
> > 
> > > File ?.File00019A08 found
> > 
> > > File ?.File00027228 found
> 
> If you DiscKnight does it give consistant errors?

Sorry in english that is:

If you run DiscKnight again does it give consistant errors?

 

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
5/4/2005 9:27:48 AM
Jules  <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Tue, 03 May 2005 15:07:32 +0100, Chris Joseph wrote:
>> One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility - the 
>> IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become unreliable
>> (I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an obvious link).
>
>Can cabling / electrical interference be an issue on RPCs? Bad cabling or
>electrical noise can certainly cause problems on machines that drive hard
>disks much harder than I suspect the RPC does - and lead to these sorts

I'm not sure; they were both fairly heavily used machines, so they'd
be more likely to show such problems than some, but I suspect that some
of the other machines (that didn't have problems) have been used even
more heavily.

>of symptoms where a flat non-random verify works just fine but things go
>pear-shaped under real conditions.

Hmmm.  Could electrical "mistreatment" of the motherboard (one of them 
had an *enormous*[1] SIMM in it) contribute?

[1] the owner had cut a chunk out of the case strut in the bottom slice
   to make room for it and it had (IIRC) SIXTEEN memory chips on each side.

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
5/4/2005 9:28:31 AM
In message <pan.2005.05.03.18.52.18.8865@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
          Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 03 May 2005 15:07:32 +0100, Chris Joseph wrote:
> > One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility - the 
> > IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become unreliable
> > (I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an obvious link).
> 
> Can cabling / electrical interference be an issue on RPCs? Bad cabling or
> electrical noise can certainly cause problems on machines that drive hard
> disks much harder than I suspect the RPC does - and lead to these sorts
> of symptoms where a flat non-random verify works just fine but things go
> pear-shaped under real conditions.

I'll take a look at the route of the cable and see if it's changed any.

> Just a thought anyway; quite possibly not an issue where the RPC is
> concerned. Just seems odd that the verify works OK...

That's certainly a thought.  I was doing some speed tests a while ago (when
the card was performing as it should) and tried it with an 80 wire 40 pin
cable but it just refused to work at all with it.  Pity that as they're less
susceptable to noise.

Mike......


-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/4/2005 9:51:46 AM
In message <xrC*VvINq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Jules  <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >On Tue, 03 May 2005 15:07:32 +0100, Chris Joseph wrote:

[snip]

> Hmmm.  Could electrical "mistreatment" of the motherboard (one of them 
> had an *enormous*[1] SIMM in it) contribute?
> 
> [1] the owner had cut a chunk out of the case strut in the bottom slice
>    to make room for it and it had (IIRC) SIXTEEN memory chips on each side.

The physical size should be a problem but the No. of chips could be.  IIRC
16 was the max. No. of chips specified by Acorn in the user manual.  It was
to do with memory bus loading, the power requirements of that quantity of
chips.

Mike....


-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/4/2005 9:54:23 AM
In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
<mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

> > You keep backups, right? :)

> Yes, although perhaps not as up to date as I should.  I have one about
> 2 months old on CD and I have just shovelled everything accross the
> network to the M$ box.

Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
shovel files over the network to M$land.

> > >corrupted and everything works fine once I've clicked OK on all the
> > >errors but obviously I don't want to miss a warning sign that my
> > >HD's about to expire.  I'm thinking it could well be hardware as
> > >also it keeps on re-initialising during use, certainly never used to
> > >park the heads after periods of inactivity which is what it appears
> > >to be doing now.
> > 
> > One relatively unlikely (but still worth considering) possibility -
> > the IDE controller on the RPC motherboard has been known to become
> > unreliable (I've seen two go, out of many RPCs, and there wasn't an
> > obvious link). This tends to lead to strange error messages, then the
> > drive getting junk data written to it on large transfers, then total
> > IDE bus failure.  Ideally,

> I'm running on a Simtec IDE podule which has not been satisfactory for
> some time now.  I'm convinced it's not using DMA and I only get 2.5 to
> 3MB/s out of it which is much the same as the onboard IDE.

Simtec doesn't use DMA, but is faster than the internal IDE.

What version firmware have you got? I've got Unipod, which is basically
Simtec, and shows IDEFS as 1.30 (03 May 2004)

> I am looking to replace it with something else (a Blitz perhaps) when I
> can afford it but that'll be even further off if I have to replace the
> HD first.

Blitz/Awesome is OK on a stable machine, but it does tend to fall over at
the slightest blip. Also, beware that it only properly supports a few
drive makes. APDL will advise. Ignore anything that Microdigital tell you.

It does use DMA, but gets a bit flaky if it doesn't like another card
sharing the bus - icubed NICs and Cumana SCSI2 don't always coexist with
it.

BTW, do you have ADFSBuffers set to zero? It is necessary for versions of 
RISC OS < 4.02 and I can't remember which you have.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2005 11:55:18 AM
In message <1115207808.ac7da2eca52c8df5a786dfa59f580bed@teranews>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
> shovel files over the network to M$land.

Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But you
might lose other info, which you may or may not consider important. 

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
RISC OS C Programming                  | http://www.riscos.info/
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/4/2005 12:04:33 PM
In article <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>,
   Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> In message <1115207808.ac7da2eca52c8df5a786dfa59f580bed@teranews>
>           Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> > <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
> > shovel files over the network to M$land.

> Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But you
> might lose other info, which you may or may not consider important. 

Whatever. It's probably best though if the OP checks his backup CD to
make sure he hasn't lost the filetypes and that applications on the CD
still run on RISC OS.

I seem to remember copying directly using LanMan 98 and getting files
named HELP/TXT,FFF or something just as unhelpful.

Cheers,

Ray D

-- 

Ray Dawson
ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk
MagRay - the audio & braille specialists
0
Ray6068 (3130)
5/4/2005 12:32:17 PM
In message <4d65c4bbd3Ray@raydawson.com>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>,
>    Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> > Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But you
> > might lose other info, which you may or may not consider important. 
> 
> Whatever. It's probably best though if the OP checks his backup CD to
> make sure he hasn't lost the filetypes and that applications on the CD
> still run on RISC OS.
> 
> I seem to remember copying directly using LanMan 98 and getting files
> named HELP/TXT,FFF or something just as unhelpful.

Uh huh.  And as last time, I refer you to my article on RISC OS
filetypes:

http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact921.html

Where I point out that if the default filetype in LanMan98 (or other
Network filesystem) is fff, then the correct thing will be done in
almost every instance.   Ironically, where you lose out might be if you
have untyped files.

Posting things you haven't checked is becoming a sad habit with you,
Ray.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drobe - http://www.drobe.co.uk/        | The Premier RISC OS News Site
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/4/2005 12:53:58 PM
On 4 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <7ab35b654d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
>           druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 3 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>> [DiscKnight Check] 
>>> 
>>> * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3 
>>> * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
>>> 
>>> * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
>> 
>> You've got two minor faults, resulting in a small amount of data being
>> inaccessible. They wont cause any immediate problems using the disc, but
> 
> Do you know what those faults are?  Wonder if they're magnetic or
> mechanical.  If mechanical then I'll ditch the disc as soon as but if
> magnetic I can perhaps copy everything off in a fresh back up and low lever
> format the disc then copy all my data back.

The problem indicates the machine was interrupted at some point during
updating the filing system and has caused some fragements of files to remain
allocated, but are inaccessible. It doesn't mean there is any physical
corruption, although you should check for this separately by using the verify
option from the disc icon.

>> I do recommend you run a repair with the full version of DiscKnight,
>> before the disc is over 75% used.
> 
> It's strange you mention the ammount used, it reminds me of the last unusual
> usage of the disc I've done which was a month or so ago. 

I mention the usage, as map fragments might impact on filecores allocation
performance once the disc is fairly full.

> I havn't been getting the speed out of the i/f I used to for much longer
> though.  The disc (13.6GB, 12GB formatted E+) had about 2GB free then I
> cleared a whole load of stuff off it onto the DarkSide box for burning onto
> CD (I don't normally burn under RO any more as I can only get 3x out of it
> due to the IDE card not working properly any more) and now it has about 6GB
> free.  Could this have triggered something?

I don't think these problems are directly related.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/4/2005 4:59:48 PM
In article <3eaec6654d.peter@chocky.org>,
   Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> In message <4d65c4bbd3Ray@raydawson.com>
>           Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>, Peter Naulls
> >    <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> > > Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But
> > > you might lose other info, which you may or may not consider
> > > important. 
> > 
> > Whatever. It's probably best though if the OP checks his backup CD to
> > make sure he hasn't lost the filetypes and that applications on the CD
> > still run on RISC OS.
> > 
> > I seem to remember copying directly using LanMan 98 and getting files
> > named HELP/TXT,FFF or something just as unhelpful.

> Uh huh.  And as last time, I refer you to my article on RISC OS
> filetypes:

> http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact921.html

> Where I point out that if the default filetype in LanMan98 (or other
> Network filesystem) is fff, then the correct thing will be done in
> almost every instance.   Ironically, where you lose out might be if you
> have untyped files.

> Posting things you haven't checked is becoming a sad habit with you,
> Ray.

Peter, sorry, but I've just re-read your article and I don't understand
it. Well in the context of sending naked files from RO over the network to
the Win PC without loss of filetype.

Regardless, here, unless I stick a RISC OS application dir inside an
archive of some sort before transporting it over the network to the MS
machine I end up with a useless application, because all the filetypes
have been lost.

I don't see how your article sorts that out, unless you mean I've got to
open up the app dir and rename all the files... Like Sprites to
"Sprites/ff9 and so on.

Cheers
Dave S

-- 

0
dfs (2099)
5/4/2005 5:37:37 PM
In message <4d65e0b011dfs@ukgateway.net>
          Dave Symes <dfs@ukgateway.net> wrote:

> I don't see how your article sorts that out, unless you mean I've got to
> open up the app dir and rename all the files... Like Sprites to
> "Sprites/ff9 and so on.

That is definitely wrong.  The issue is simple for this case - the
filename on the foreign system ends up being Sprites,ff9 when it's
copied over. But you don't see the ,xxx bit from RISC OS; that's
reflected as the filetype instead.

Don't use the "notypes" option in LanMan98 et al unless you understand
the consequences.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix Programs on RISC OS               | http://www.riscos.info/unix/
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/4/2005 7:19:44 PM
In message <4c2eea654d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <4d65e0b011dfs@ukgateway.net>
>           Dave Symes <dfs@ukgateway.net> wrote:
> 
> > I don't see how your article sorts that out, unless you mean I've got to
> > open up the app dir and rename all the files... Like Sprites to
> > "Sprites/ff9 and so on.
> 
> That is definitely wrong.  The issue is simple for this case - the
> filename on the foreign system ends up being Sprites,ff9 when it's
> copied over. But you don't see the ,xxx bit from RISC OS; that's
> reflected as the filetype instead.
> 

May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested in?

I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I just
transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to a CD
will they retain their filetypes?

Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
RiscPC doesn't.

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/5/2005 9:58:18 AM
In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested in?
> 
> I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
> them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I just
> transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to a CD
> will they retain their filetypes?
> 
> Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
> RiscPC doesn't.

Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
retained.

-- 
Tim Powys-Lybbe������������������������������������������tim@powys.org
�������������For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
0
tim222 (1366)
5/5/2005 10:09:52 AM
In message <1a883b664d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk>
          Tim Powys-Lybbe <tim@powys.org> wrote:

> In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested
> > in?
> > 
> > I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
> > them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I
> > just transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to
> > a CD will they retain their filetypes?
> > 
> > Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
> > RiscPC doesn't.
> 
> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> retained.
> 

Thanks Tim

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/5/2005 10:34:32 AM
In message <pan.2005.05.05.11.58.15.470005@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
          Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> 
> > In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
[snip]
> > > 
> > > I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can
> > > burn them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.
> > > If I just transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then
> > > direct to a CD will they retain their filetypes?
[snip]
> > 
> > Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > retained.
> 
> Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though.

Some of them are, what happens if I just transfer them straight?


-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/5/2005 11:13:48 AM
On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:

> In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
>> May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested in?
>> 
>> I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
>> them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I just
>> transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to a CD
>> will they retain their filetypes?
>> 
>> Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
>> RiscPC doesn't.
> 
> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> retained.

Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though.
A single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 


0
5/5/2005 11:58:16 AM
In message <346241664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
          Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <pan.2005.05.05.11.58.15.470005@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
>           Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > > Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > > retained.
> > 
> > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though.
> 
> Some of them are, what happens if I just transfer them straight?

Well, you snipped the crucial bit of what Jules said - the point was
that a read error on a CD might cause you to lose lots of data if you
use large zips.

As for transferring files, if you're using Select, you could try
AppleTalk.  Or you could even create the ISO under RISC OS if you have
the right software to hand.   My port of mkisofs might just about do it,
but it's a bit ropey, and probably needs a new version done.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix Programs on RISC OS               | http://www.riscos.info/unix/
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/5/2005 2:49:00 PM
In message <1b1555664d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <346241664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>           Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In message <pan.2005.05.05.11.58.15.470005@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
> >           Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > > Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > > > retained.
> > > 
> > > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though.
> > 
> > Some of them are, what happens if I just transfer them straight?
> 
> Well, you snipped the crucial bit of what Jules said - the point was
> that a read error on a CD might cause you to lose lots of data if you
> use large zips.

Yes, sorry I was a bit unclear.  I understand the bit about read errors, it's
what happens if I just copy the files to the Mac that confused me.  Having
now done the obvious and sent some files back and forth I discovered that any
file without a dos-style extension comes back as data.  What I need is a list
of filetypes for the various files I want to transfer.

> 
> As for transferring files, if you're using Select, you could try
> AppleTalk.  

I'm using Adjust but haven't got a clue how AppleTalk works (on either
machine).

> Or you could even create the ISO under RISC OS if you have the right
> software to hand.   My port of mkisofs might just about do it, but it's a
> bit ropey, and probably needs a new version done.
> 

Sounds well out of my league.

As the total amount of data is relatively small (lets face it I could backup
the whole of my hard-disc to one CDRom) I'm creating a fairly large number of
small zip files, to minimise problems if one fails to read, and then I'm
going to copy two complete versions of the backup directories onto the CDRom.


-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/5/2005 3:26:38 PM
On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> 
>> In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>>> May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested
>>> in?
>>> 
>>> I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
>>> them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I
>>> just transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to
>>> a CD will they retain their filetypes?
>>> 
>>> Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
>>> RiscPC doesn't.
>> 
>> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
>> retained.
> 
> Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
> single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 

What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/5/2005 8:03:45 PM
Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> Well, you snipped the crucial bit of what Jules said - the point was
> that a read error on a CD might cause you to lose lots of data if you
> use large zips.
> 
> As for transferring files, if you're using Select, you could try
> AppleTalk.  Or you could even create the ISO under RISC OS if you have
> the right software to hand.   My port of mkisofs might just about do it,
> but it's a bit ropey, and probably needs a new version done.

Graeme won't be able to create the CD image on Mac OS, because the filename
munging that goes on for network transfer doesn't mean anything for CDs.  So
you'd get a CD with lots of something,ff9 files on it.  If you were network
mounting this CD, that would be OK.

CDFS' extensions for specifying filetypes don't touch the filenames.  The
data is encoded in a vendor-specific extension of the ISO9660 directory
(there's the text ARCHIMEDES followed by some load/execute addresses).  So
you'll either need CDBurn or a version of mkisofs that knows about this.  I
don't know whether Peter's does, but I have some ancient versions of it that
do if anyone wants them (oh, and Acorn's ISOForm, and the extension spec,
should anyone care)

Theo

-- 
Theo Markettos                 theo@markettos.org.uk
Clare Hall, Cambridge          atm26@cam.ac.uk
CB3 9AL, UK                    http://www.markettos.org.uk/
0
news539 (2440)
5/5/2005 8:49:59 PM
In message <2ae771664d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
          druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> > 
[snip]
> >> 
> >> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> >> retained.
> > 
> > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
> > single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 
> 
> What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.
> 

I never thought of that!  All I have to do is work out how to set the
compression to none. I've got Infozip or SparkFS, any clues as to how I do
it?

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/5/2005 9:28:44 PM
In message <c1ae79664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
          Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <2ae771664d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
>           druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> > > 
> [snip]
> > >> 
> > >> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > >> retained.
> > > 
> > > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
> > > single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 
> > 
> > What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> > none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.
> > 
> 
> I never thought of that!  All I have to do is work out how to set the
> compression to none. I've got Infozip or SparkFS, any clues as to how I do
> it?
> 
SparkFS choices under Archive Type Zip Method choose no compression save.

John

-- 
John Sandford   West Herts   UK

Hemel Hempstead Risc OS User Group email info @ hhrug.org
0
5/5/2005 10:29:36 PM
In article <c1ae79664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>, 
Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk says...
> In message <2ae771664d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
>           druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> > > 
> [snip]
> > >> 
> > >> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > >> retained.
> > > 
> > > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
> > > single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 
> > 
> > What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> > none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.
> > 
> 
> I never thought of that!  All I have to do is work out how to set the
> compression to none. I've got Infozip or SparkFS, any clues as to how I do
> it?

Menu over the archive that you've dragged to a folder and select 'No 
Compression'.

-- 
Greg Harris (Norwich, UK)
0
greg1 (566)
5/5/2005 10:34:37 PM
In message <62417f664d.jms@sandford.ntlworld.com>
          fornewsgroups@ntlworld.com wrote:

[snip]
> > 
> > I never thought of that!  All I have to do is work out how to set the
> > compression to none. I've got Infozip or SparkFS, any clues as to how I
> > do it?
> > 
> SparkFS choices under Archive Type Zip Method choose no compression save.
> 

Must update my copy, it does't have that option.

Thanks

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/6/2005 7:57:45 AM
In message <3Zx*9gQNq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Theo Markettos <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> CDFS' extensions for specifying filetypes don't touch the filenames.  The
> data is encoded in a vendor-specific extension of the ISO9660 directory
> (there's the text ARCHIMEDES followed by some load/execute addresses).  So
> you'll either need CDBurn or a version of mkisofs that knows about this.  I
> don't know whether Peter's does, but I have some ancient versions of it that
> do if anyone wants them (oh, and Acorn's ISOForm, and the extension spec,
> should anyone care)

True enough, but it might be plausible that a CDFS could be created that
does this - the code is very simple.  I don't remember off hand if my
mkisofs does what you suggest.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please Reply Properly - http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/6/2005 8:07:55 AM
In article <1b1555664d.peter@chocky.org>, Peter Naulls
<URL:mailto:peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> In message <346241664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>           Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In message <pan.2005.05.05.11.58.15.470005@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
> >           Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > > Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
> > > > retained.
> > > 
> > > Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though.
> > 
> > Some of them are, what happens if I just transfer them straight?
> 
> Well, you snipped the crucial bit of what Jules said - the point was
> that a read error on a CD might cause you to lose lots of data if you
> use large zips.

Which gives me an idea for an app that will automatically ZIP groups of
files limiting the zip file by size and or number of files!

I wonder how practical that is?

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
5/6/2005 9:10:44 AM
In message <ant060944f7fpErr@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
          Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> Which gives me an idea for an app that will automatically ZIP groups of
> files limiting the zip file by size and or number of files!
> 
> I wonder how practical that is?

Sounds like just the job for a bash script.  You could even just about
do it under RISC OS.   However, I would much prefer getting the correct
filenames and filetypes on the CD in the first place.

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Drobe - http://www.drobe.co.uk/        | The Premier RISC OS News Site
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/6/2005 10:01:22 AM
Michael Hambley  <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
>          Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>> Hmmm.  Could electrical "mistreatment" of the motherboard (one of them 
>> had an *enormous*[1] SIMM in it) contribute?
>> 
>> [1] the owner had cut a chunk out of the case strut in the bottom slice
>>    to make room for it and it had (IIRC) SIXTEEN memory chips on each side.
>
>The physical size should be a problem but the No. of chips could be.  IIRC
>16 was the max. No. of chips specified by Acorn in the user manual.  It was

Sixteen chips per simm - ie eight on each side of each SIMM.  This was one
SIMM with 32 chips on it....  It worked fine for many years, though, and
the machine never had memory problems even after the IDE controller borked.

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
5/6/2005 11:48:08 AM
Michael Hambley  <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
>          Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>> You keep backups, right? :)
>
>Yes, although perhaps not as up to date as I should.  I have one about 2
>months old on CD and I have just shovelled everything accross the network to
>the M$ box.

Which reminds me; I'm looking for a set of S/H RO4.xx ROMs for an A7000+
that I want to set up to do network backups.  I need 4.xx purely for the
filesystem changes (it'll be backing up my RPC and the Win2k box) rather
than for anything else, so I'm not bothered about adjust, etc.

So if anyone's got a set of 4.02/4.04 chips they'd like to sell, give
me a shout and we'll come to some arrangement.

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
5/6/2005 11:58:10 AM
In message <pan.2005.05.06.13.26.29.772263@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk>
          Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 May 2005 21:03:45 +0100, druck wrote:

> > What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> > none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.
> 
> Blimey, I admit to not even knowing that you could do that. Is that a
> portable format (i.e. Windows / Unix zip extraction progs can still read
> it) or is it an extension specific to Acorn-land?

There's nothing special about them.

> There's no mention in the Linux man page for 'zip' of it being able to
> create uncompressed archives, anyway.

There is.  Try -0

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix Programs on RISC OS               | http://www.riscos.info/unix/
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/6/2005 12:39:57 PM
On Thu, 05 May 2005 21:03:45 +0100, druck wrote:

> On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 May 2005 11:09:52 +0100, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
>> 
>>> In message of 5 May, Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> May I hijack this thread as it is heading in a direction I am interested
>>>> in?
>>>> 
>>>> I want to transfer some sprite files (by FTP) to a Mac so that I can burn
>>>> them onto a CDRom, also some Pipedream, Impression and Draw files.  If I
>>>> just transfer them to an appropriate folder on the Mac and then direct to
>>>> a CD will they retain their filetypes?
>>>> 
>>>> Reason for doing it this way is very simple the Mac has a burner and the
>>>> RiscPC doesn't.
>>> 
>>> Put them in a zip: then the filetypes, and any capitalisation, are all
>>> retained.
>> 
>> Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
>> single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 
> 
> What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.

Blimey, I admit to not even knowing that you could do that. Is that a
portable format (i.e. Windows / Unix zip extraction progs can still read
it) or is it an extension specific to Acorn-land?

There's no mention in the Linux man page for 'zip' of it being able to
create uncompressed archives, anyway.

Normally I just use tar to create uncompressed archives as I know versions
exist for any platform under the sun - but if uncompressed zips are truely
portable that might be a better way to go (a target platform is more
likely to already have a zip extraction utility on it rather than tar)

cheers

Jules

0
5/6/2005 1:26:30 PM
On Fri, 06 May 2005 12:39:57 +0000, Peter Naulls wrote:
>> There's no mention in the Linux man page for 'zip' of it being able to
>> create uncompressed archives, anyway.
> 
> There is.  Try -0

D'oh - right you are; I'm half asleep today (at least it's Friday)

A quick test under linux (zip 2.3) shows that it does work as expected
too; I deliberately corrupted the test file I created with a hex editor
and it was still able to recover past the error. It seems to be able to
handle corrupt data either in the original file contents or the local
signature for each stored file, which is a good sign. 

cheers

Jules



0
5/6/2005 2:36:33 PM
On 6 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2005 21:03:45 +0100, druck wrote:
> > On 5 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >> Don't use zip archives on a CD if this is critical backup data though. A
> >> single read error would be enough to wipe out half your archive. 
> > 
> > What you mean is dont use compressed zips. If you set the compression to
> > none, everything apart from the damaged sections can be extracted.
> 
> Blimey, I admit to not even knowing that you could do that. Is that a
> portable format (i.e. Windows / Unix zip extraction progs can still read
> it) or is it an extension specific to Acorn-land?

Yes all the gnu zip implementations will read the. Zip -FF will fix most
problems.
 
> Normally I just use tar to create uncompressed archives as I know versions
> exist for any platform under the sun - but if uncompressed zips are truely
> portable that might be a better way to go (a target platform is more
> likely to already have a zip extraction utility on it rather than tar)

!SparkFS can read tar too, however unless the files have extensions for which
SparkFS has mappings for, they will appear untyped.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/6/2005 5:02:17 PM
In article <5845b3664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>, Graeme Wall
<Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <62417f664d.jms@sandford.ntlworld.com>
>           fornewsgroups@ntlworld.com wrote:

> [snip]
> > > 
> > > I never thought of that!  All I have to do is work out how to set
> > > the compression to none. I've got Infozip or SparkFS, any clues as
> > > to how I do it?
> > > 
> > SparkFS choices under Archive Type Zip Method choose no compression
> > save.
> > 

> Must update my copy, it does't have that option.

Are you sure? The choice section for 
Method (deflate,shrink, no compression) has been there for a fair few
versions. 
NB select Zip and then go to the other menu button to select the variants.

> Thanks

0
5/7/2005 6:08:52 AM
In message <3b8858664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
          Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:


< a big snip>
> 
> Sounds well out of my league.
> 
> As the total amount of data is relatively small (lets face it I could backup
> the whole of my hard-disc to one CDRom) I'm creating a fairly large number of
> small zip files, to minimise problems if one fails to read, and then I'm
> going to copy two complete versions of the backup directories onto the CDRom.
> 
> 

Another solution is to create 10% recovery files and put these on the CD
If you have read errors on the CD you are still be able to repair your data
( If you have for example 100 x 3Mb zip files and you can't read 6 files back
to your HD there is nothing lost because you can recover the lost files)

par2 program and test/example   http://home.hccnet.nl/k-meijer/


-- 
RISCOS select 4.37
287 Mhz Strongarm
146 Mb memory
No virusses /No BSOD
0
k-meijer1 (3)
5/9/2005 12:23:05 AM
In message <192715684d.kees@hccnet.nl>
          kees meijer <k-meijer@hccnet.nl> wrote:

> In message <3b8858664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>           Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> < a big snip>
> > 
> > Sounds well out of my league.
> > 
> > As the total amount of data is relatively small (lets face it I could
> > backup the whole of my hard-disc to one CDRom) I'm creating a fairly
> > large number of small zip files, to minimise problems if one fails to
> > read, and then I'm going to copy two complete versions of the backup
> > directories onto the CDRom.
> > 
> > 
> 
> Another solution is to create 10% recovery files and put these on the CD If
> you have read errors on the CD you are still be able to repair your data (
> If you have for example 100 x 3Mb zip files and you can't read 6 files back
> to your HD there is nothing lost because you can recover the lost files)
> 
> par2 program and test/example   http://home.hccnet.nl/k-meijer/
> 
> 

Thanks, I'll give that a try

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/9/2005 7:51:35 AM
In article <3b8858664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>,
   Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Yes, sorry I was a bit unclear.  I understand the bit about read
> errors, it's what happens if I just copy the files to the Mac that
> confused me.  Having now done the obvious and sent some files back
> and forth I discovered that any file without a dos-style extension
> comes back as data.  What I need is a list of filetypes for the
> various files I want to transfer.

It doesn't matter if the files lose their filetype, they'll still
contain the same bytes.  All you need to do is arrange for a list
detailing the filenames and types to be saved as well, eg the output of
*info   or  *fileinfo   (eg issued in a taskwindow and that saved).
It's probably worth doing that anyway just to get a browsable/
searchable file of names, types, dates & sizes. 

If you're cunning you could arrange for the list to be in an Obey file
and contain a whole lot of

 SetType <Obey$Dir>.leafname1 Text
 SetType <Obey$Dir>.leafname2 Sprite

lines, so that once they're copied back to a RO machine running the
Obey file will reset the types properly.

-- 
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
0
Jeremy1 (1807)
5/10/2005 7:10:43 PM
In message <4d69003a14Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk>
          Jeremy C B Nicoll <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <3b8858664d%Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk>,
>    Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > Yes, sorry I was a bit unclear.  I understand the bit about read
> > errors, it's what happens if I just copy the files to the Mac that
> > confused me.  Having now done the obvious and sent some files back
> > and forth I discovered that any file without a dos-style extension
> > comes back as data.  What I need is a list of filetypes for the
> > various files I want to transfer.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the files lose their filetype, they'll still
> contain the same bytes.  All you need to do is arrange for a list
> detailing the filenames and types to be saved as well, eg the output of
> *info   or  *fileinfo   (eg issued in a taskwindow and that saved).
> It's probably worth doing that anyway just to get a browsable/
> searchable file of names, types, dates & sizes. 
> 
> If you're cunning you could arrange for the list to be in an Obey file
> and contain a whole lot of
> 
>  SetType <Obey$Dir>.leafname1 Text
>  SetType <Obey$Dir>.leafname2 Sprite
> 
> lines, so that once they're copied back to a RO machine running the
> Obey file will reset the types properly.
> 

That's a sneaky idea, I like it.  Thanks.

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/10/2005 10:35:50 PM
In message <1115207808.ac7da2eca52c8df5a786dfa59f580bed@teranews>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > You keep backups, right? :)
> 
> > Yes, although perhaps not as up to date as I should.  I have one about
> > 2 months old on CD and I have just shovelled everything accross the
> > network to the M$ box.
> 
> Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
> shovel files over the network to M$land.

The CD version is all in zips but LM98 seems to keep file types if you copy
then take back again but it will sometimes add a comma and the RO hex file
type if you look at the files in Doze.

However, thinking I'd been pusing my luck too long already I bought a 40GB
Maxtor from a mate's shop (for which I paid rather more than I would have
ordering it from my trade supplyers but didn't need to place an order just
now so P&P would have been terrible for one HD) and have copied all accross
onto the new HD.  It's much quieter than the IBM too which is good for night
time.

[snip]

> > I'm running on a Simtec IDE podule which has not been satisfactory for
> > some time now.  I'm convinced it's not using DMA and I only get 2.5 to
> > 3MB/s out of it which is much the same as the onboard IDE.
> 
> Simtec doesn't use DMA, but is faster than the internal IDE.

That would explain why it appeared DMA wasn't working!  Ran DiscSpeed an it
tops out at 2MB/s which I'd say was really rather poor even for the onboard
IDE?

> What version firmware have you got? I've got Unipod, which is basically
> Simtec, and shows IDEFS as 1.30 (03 May 2004)

*help idefs
1.11e (20 Oct 1999

*Rommodules
idefssimtecsupport 1.12

If any others would be of use please just let me know.

I downloaded !Snafu 1.67 some time ago but never seemed to get the modules I
tought I should from it.

> > I am looking to replace it with something else (a Blitz perhaps) when I
> > can afford it but that'll be even further off if I have to replace the
> > HD first.
> 
> Blitz/Awesome is OK on a stable machine, but it does tend to fall over at
> the slightest blip. Also, beware that it only properly supports a few
> drive makes. APDL will advise. Ignore anything that Microdigital tell you.

I'll bare that in mind.
 
> It does use DMA, but gets a bit flaky if it doesn't like another card
> sharing the bus - icubed NICs and Cumana SCSI2 don't always coexist with
> it.

Ah, I have an icubed NIC and a PowerTec SCSI2 card.

> BTW, do you have ADFSBuffers set to zero? It is necessary for versions of 
> RISC OS < 4.02 and I can't remember which you have.

Yes, I have ADFSBuffers set to zero and I have RO 4.02.  Don't suppose this
has any baring but I have an SA Rev. K 202MHz.  Took the 486 card out some
years ago.  2MB VRAM and 64MB DRAM.

Cheers, Mike.....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/11/2005 8:51:31 AM
In message <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <1115207808.ac7da2eca52c8df5a786dfa59f580bed@teranews>
>           Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> > <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
> > shovel files over the network to M$land.
> 
> Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But you
> might lose other info, which you may or may not consider important. 

From what you write this has been done before so I'll no ask for a public
rehash of it all but can you supply a link or something so I can find out
what info is lost?

Thanks, Mike.....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/11/2005 8:53:00 AM
In message <4d65c4bbd3Ray@raydawson.com>
          Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>,
>    Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:
> > In message <1115207808.ac7da2eca52c8df5a786dfa59f580bed@teranews>
> >           Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > > In article <e348b1654d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>, Michael Hambley
> > > <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > Inside zip files I hope - otherwise you lose the filetype if you just
> > > shovel files over the network to M$land.
> 
> > Not with a correct setup.  But we've done this argument before.  But you
> > might lose other info, which you may or may not consider important. 
> 
> Whatever. It's probably best though if the OP checks his backup CD to
> make sure he hasn't lost the filetypes and that applications on the CD
> still run on RISC OS.
> 
> I seem to remember copying directly using LanMan 98 and getting files
> named HELP/TXT,FFF or something just as unhelpful.

I get that when read on the Doze side but the <comma>xyz part is not visible
on the RO side and all seems to work normally.

Cheers, Mike.....


-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/11/2005 8:55:29 AM
In message <3eaec6654d.peter@chocky.org>
          Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

> In message <4d65c4bbd3Ray@raydawson.com>
>           Ray Dawson <Ray@magray.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> > In article <610ac2654d.peter@chocky.org>,
> >    Peter Naulls <peter@chocky.org> wrote:

[snip]

> Uh huh.  And as last time, I refer you to my article on RISC OS
> filetypes:
> 
> http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact921.html

Thank you Peter, please ignore my previous post asking for this sort of
thing.

[snip]

Cheers, Mike........

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/11/2005 8:56:45 AM
In message <9a39dd654d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
          druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:

> On 4 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <7ab35b654d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>
> >           druck <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> On 3 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> [DiscKnight Check] 
> >>> 
> >>> * Headless fragment ID &00019A08 found in zone 520 offset &0DE3 
> >>> * Headless fragment ID &00027228 found in zone 891 offset &01B1
> >>> 
> >>> * 2 objects in map not referenced by directories
> >> 
> >> You've got two minor faults, resulting in a small amount of data being
> >> inaccessible. They wont cause any immediate problems using the disc, but
> > 
> > Do you know what those faults are?  Wonder if they're magnetic or
> > mechanical.  If mechanical then I'll ditch the disc as soon as but if
> > magnetic I can perhaps copy everything off in a fresh back up and low lever
> > format the disc then copy all my data back.
> 
> The problem indicates the machine was interrupted at some point during
> updating the filing system and has caused some fragements of files to remain
> allocated, but are inaccessible. It doesn't mean there is any physical
> corruption, although you should check for this separately by using the verify
> option from the disc icon.

I see.  I noted down some errors, it was "Disc error 24 at:" each time but
the address given moved arround (some one, might have been you Druck?, asked
earlier in this thread if it was always the same address or moving) and the
three I noted down were:

4/000000008D07FA00
4/000000008842DE00
4/000000008842E00O

[snip]

> > I havn't been getting the speed out of the i/f I used to for much longer
> > though.  The disc (13.6GB, 12GB formatted E+) had about 2GB free then I
> > cleared a whole load of stuff off it onto the DarkSide box for burning onto
> > CD (I don't normally burn under RO any more as I can only get 3x out of it
> > due to the IDE card not working properly any more) and now it has about 6GB
> > free.  Could this have triggered something?
> 
> I don't think these problems are directly related.

Shame, two birds, one stone and all that.  Ah well.  One good thing though
is that the new HD does work with an 80 wire cable so I've used one now
which should hopefully be less susceptable to interfearance and is
marginally smaller with miniscule air circulation benifits (also they stay
folded which helps routing).  The new Maxtor seems to run a little cooler
than the old IBM.  One other thing is I've taken the feet of the side again
and turned it back into a desktop, tried it as tower for a week or two to
see if it'd make any difference.  Probably just coincidence with the drive
deteriorating but it seemed to reinitialise during operation more when in
"tower" mode. 

Cheers, Mike....

-- 
Michael Hambley - mike@armpowered.co.uk
http://www.armpowered.co.uk - My little corner of the web.
http://www.dispose-it.co.uk - IT disposal/recycling & data destruction.
http://www.ecoputers.co.uk - New and refurbished computers, peripherals etc.
0
mike2034 (136)
5/11/2005 9:11:51 AM
In message <3d824b694d.Michael@armpowered.co.uk>
          Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:

> From what you write this has been done before so I'll no ask for a public
> rehash of it all but can you supply a link or something so I can find out
> what info is lost?

I already did.  Sadly, you've decided to reply to every single message
in this thread, instead of attempting to combine some of the replies.
Also, much of this thread could have been avoided if you'd just gone in
search of the DiscKnight demo instead of talking about it :-|

-- 
Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org        | http://www.chocky.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please Reply Properly - http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/quote.html
0
peter4500 (2516)
5/11/2005 9:46:32 AM
On 11 May 2005 Michael Hambley <mike@armpowered.co.uk> wrote:
> I see.  I noted down some errors, it was "Disc error 24 at:" each time but
> the address given moved arround (some one, might have been you Druck?, asked
> earlier in this thread if it was always the same address or moving) and the
> three I noted down were:
> 
> 4/000000008D07FA00
> 4/000000008842DE00
> 4/000000008842E00O

I suggest replacing immediately. However in the mean time to stop the system
attempting to access those bad locations use:-

*Defect 4 000000008D07FA00
*Defect 4 000000008842DE00
*Defect 4 000000008842E00O

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/11/2005 5:01:21 PM
Michael Hambley wrote:
[snips]
> than the old IBM.  One other thing is I've taken the feet of the side
again
> and turned it back into a desktop, tried it as tower for a week or
two to
> see if it'd make any difference.  Probably just coincidence with the
drive
> deteriorating but it seemed to reinitialise during operation more
when in
> "tower" mode.
>
I've generally been wary of turning a drive which has always been used
horizontally to vertical use, and vice versa.  Something about wear
patterns increasing the likelihood of problems was pointed out in IIRC
an old - 1994? - Archive article describing small palls of smoke from
an old drive so treated.  I had thought this would be overcautious for
modern drives, but perhaps not...

Rgds,
Andrew

0
ajw99uk (550)
5/11/2005 7:28:10 PM
In article <1115839690.874274.193870@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Andrew Wickham <URL:mailto:ajw99uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> Michael Hambley wrote:
> [snips]
> > than the old IBM.  One other thing is I've taken the feet of the side
> again
> > and turned it back into a desktop, tried it as tower for a week or
> two to
> > see if it'd make any difference.  Probably just coincidence with the
> drive
> > deteriorating but it seemed to reinitialise during operation more
> when in
> > "tower" mode.
> >
> I've generally been wary of turning a drive which has always been used
> horizontally to vertical use, and vice versa.  Something about wear
> patterns increasing the likelihood of problems was pointed out in IIRC
> an old - 1994? - Archive article describing small palls of smoke from
> an old drive so treated.  I had thought this would be overcautious for
> modern drives,

I think you are!

> but perhaps not...

Especially when you consider a RISC OS hard disc is accessed an awful lot
less than with other os's 90%? less than WindowsXP at a guess.

Chris Evans

-- 
CJE Micro's / 4D                'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222             Fax: 01903 523679
chris@cjemicros.co.uk     http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex,     BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

0
chris8168 (2937)
5/12/2005 10:54:07 AM
Chris Evans wrote:
> In article <1115839690.874274.193870@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Andrew Wickham <URL:mailto:ajw99uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > but perhaps not...
>
> Especially when you consider a RISC OS hard disc is accessed an awful
lot
> less than with other os's 90%? less than WindowsXP at a guess.
>
But the platter is still spinning whether accessed or not, so unless
you have a standby mode the _physical_ motor/spindle wear will be much
the same. See Jules' post for other parts possibly affected (though
again on older drives).  It was just a thought, as OP mentioned having
put his RPC on its side.

Rgds,
Andrew

0
ajw99uk (550)
5/12/2005 12:42:34 PM
On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:28:10 -0700, Andrew Wickham wrote:
> I've generally been wary of turning a drive which has always been used
> horizontally to vertical use, and vice versa.  Something about wear
> patterns increasing the likelihood of problems was pointed out in IIRC
> an old - 1994? - Archive article describing small palls of smoke from
> an old drive so treated.  I had thought this would be overcautious for
> modern drives, but perhaps not...

I'd not thought of it like that. I always assumed the problem was with
servo positioning and that the change in orientation might throw it off
just enough for the existing signal recorded on the drive to be less than
optimal after the change (I could particularly believe that on very old
drives using a stepper for head positioning)

And presumably upside-down was a no-no because gravity had an effect on
head flying height...

(thinking about it, I *have* seen modern drives throw up a few bad
sectors after an orientation change but without LLF; but said drives had a
lot of hours on them in a RAID array and I can't be certain that it wasn't
just their time to keel over...)

cheers

Jules

0
5/12/2005 1:09:06 PM
On 12 May 2005 Jules <julesrichardsonuk@remove.this.yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2005 12:28:10 -0700, Andrew Wickham wrote:
>> I've generally been wary of turning a drive which has always been used
>> horizontally to vertical use, and vice versa.  Something about wear
>> patterns increasing the likelihood of problems was pointed out in IIRC an
>> old - 1994? - Archive article describing small palls of smoke from an old
>> drive so treated.  I had thought this would be overcautious for modern
>> drives, but perhaps not...
> 
> I'd not thought of it like that. I always assumed the problem was with
> servo positioning 

I there was issues bearings after reorientation, its not going to be a
problem with the latest drives, as they use air bearings to reduce the noise
caused by increasing the speed from 5400rpm to 7200rpm
 
> And presumably upside-down was a no-no because gravity had an effect on
> head flying height...

The flying height of less than 1 micron is created by the cushion of air over
the rotating disc pushing sprung heads away from the plattern. Therefor it
will work in any orientation.

Changing orinentation when the disc is spinning should be avoided as the
gyroscopic effect can cause the platterns to flex and the head to crash in to
them. Although 2.5" laptop drives are now much more resistant to this.

> (thinking about it, I *have* seen modern drives throw up a few bad
> sectors after an orientation change but without LLF; but said drives had a
> lot of hours on them in a RAID array and I can't be certain that it wasn't
> just their time to keel over...)

Symptoms are more likely to be vibration and premature catastrophic failure,
which is always a favourite of mine.

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/12/2005 10:02:30 PM
In article <3da0176a4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
<news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Symptoms are more likely to be vibration and premature catastrophic
> failure, which is always a favourite of mine.

If David were getting an income from Disc Knight one would be worried about
statements like that! ;-)

-- 
	John Cartmell	john@ followed by finnybank.com	  0845 006 8822
	Qercus magazine	FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527		www.finnybank.com
	Qercus - the best guide to RISC OS computing
                                                      
0
john233 (5650)
5/13/2005 8:09:46 AM
Jeremy C B Nicoll  <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>   Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Yes, sorry I was a bit unclear.  I understand the bit about read
>> errors, it's what happens if I just copy the files to the Mac that
>> confused me.  Having now done the obvious and sent some files back
>> and forth I discovered that any file without a dos-style extension
>> comes back as data.  What I need is a list of filetypes for the
>> various files I want to transfer.
>
>It doesn't matter if the files lose their filetype, they'll still

Unless you've got programs with old absolute files that have load and
run addresses instead of filetypes....  (I don't remember precisely how
this worked, but do remember it being a pain when transferring various
older bits of software without thinking about it!)  At this point, you
need to be extremely careful to retain the "filetype" data, since it's
usually very difficult to guess.

Chris.
0
chrisj1 (269)
5/14/2005 10:04:41 AM
In message <bhc*onxOq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>
          Chris Joseph <chrisj@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Jeremy C B Nicoll  <Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >   Graeme Wall <Graeme@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, sorry I was a bit unclear.  I understand the bit about read
> >> errors, it's what happens if I just copy the files to the Mac that
> >> confused me.  Having now done the obvious and sent some files back
> >> and forth I discovered that any file without a dos-style extension
> >> comes back as data.  What I need is a list of filetypes for the
> >> various files I want to transfer.
> >
> >It doesn't matter if the files lose their filetype, they'll still
> 
> Unless you've got programs with old absolute files that have load and
> run addresses instead of filetypes....  (I don't remember precisely how
> this worked, but do remember it being a pain when transferring various
> older bits of software without thinking about it!)  At this point, you
> need to be extremely careful to retain the "filetype" data, since it's
> usually very difficult to guess.
> 

Files are Pipedream and Impression mainly, with the odd Draw amd Sprite file.

-- 
Graeme Wall

My genealogy website:  
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
0
Graeme (792)
5/14/2005 10:48:24 AM
On 13 May 2005 John Cartmell <john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <3da0176a4d.druck@druck.freeuk.net>, druck
> <news@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> > Symptoms are more likely to be vibration and premature catastrophic
> > failure, which is always a favourite of mine.
> 
> If David were getting an income from Disc Knight one would be worried about
> statements like that! ;-)

In the case of catastrophic DiscKnight wont help :-(

---druck

-- 
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
The 32bit Conversions Page - http://www.quantumsoft.co.uk/druck/
0
news5843 (7461)
5/14/2005 11:27:01 AM
Reply: