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Why Do SySop`s Exist ???

Subject: Why Do SySop's Exist ??? 

Hoi Wlbbs : 

On 26 Oct'03, at 14:45, in a message to All , you Scribed: 


 WL> One follow up said... " many people don't 
 WL> even know what a BB's is !!!" 

 That may have been me. Been writing about that in C= publications 
recently as a topic. 


 WL> Why do SysOp's exist ??  ( now known as web-masters and moderators 

 Not I, Still a SysOp of the local BBS. Run on a C=128D with 4.3GN HD 
and the SCPU. FD-2000 and swiftlink at 28.8kbps 


 WL> )....  It's pretty simple... 99 % of us 
 WL> do it because we want to... we 
 WL> get great satisfaction out of knowing our effort is helping someone

 That is true! I wouldn't have spent the bread for the items used and 
the frelling phone line. IF I didn't "wanna" do this trip. 


 WL> When I shut my BB's down once and for 
 WL> all, after running on a C=64 for 
 WL> 10 years and then an "ibm" for 3 more, 
 WL> the only reason for doing that 
 WL> was the Internet......  simply put.... I 
 WL> was out numbered by the choices 
 WL> of "the WWW.COM ....   In the latter 
 WL> years of my C=64 BB's, the name was 
 WL> changed to The Commie Kazez BBs , because I knew it was suicidal ( 

 A pity but I understand. Been running mine for close to 7 yeas. First 
on Omni 128 and now on Centipede. Around my little community of about 
32k pop in the entire county. We had at one time approx 15 boards. All 
on the IBuM system. 

 Most faile after a few months. The SysOp just didn't spend the time to 
operate the BBS. This included one for a computer store. The most 
common BBS prg was spitfire. Pay boards died real fast. Only one board 
ran by a polio victim was of major worth. Called it daily. In fact in 
my early days of Computer work. Called it on a monchrome screen <amber> 
in 40c CG at 300baud. Good thing the SysOp had run a C= BBS in Portland 
[Ore] in the 80s and helped me. Good drinking buddy as well. 

 Took a long time to get Inet service that wasn't L.D. calls in this 
area. Boards were closing at that time for many reasons. The oldest one 
<Grapevine> Closed when the SysOp - well died from Agent Orange and 
loss of the liver. Nam buddy of mine. Others whose names I have 
forgotten shut down as the high schoolers who ran them, left the area. 
The last BBS to fold was the Hole in the Wall. That because the SysOp 
updated his computer and found out that the upgraded system was not 
fully compatible with the BBS software. Was rather peeved at the 
crashes when callers connected. Mine is still up and gains some local 
callers and L.D. callers. FWIW it is now the official Scene World disk 
mag BBS for the USA. {Ego boost} 


 WL> SysOp's aren't dead....SysOp's still 
 WL> exist EVERY-WHERE ....  we just 
 WL> call them by different names now.... Webmaster's, Moderators, TECH 
 WL> SUPPORT GUY, ,,,, ect. ect. 

 Or in some case we are still SysOps. Stubborn to hang onto something 
that doesn't have spam <well not too much> and no pop ups. Though I am 
speaking from my own boards point. 


 WL> And the fact is.... 99.9 % of the people 
 WL> these SYSTEM OPERATORS help.... 
 WL> still to this day never say Thanks....  some things never do 
 WL> change...........  thats why a lot of them just plain quit. 

 Hmmm, that isn't the case with my BBS. The majority of callers in the 
month will thank me for the help I give them. Could be the new feeling 
about the BBS world. 

BCNU 

 Lord Ronin from Q-Link {Sensei} David O.E. Mohr 
 SysOp of "The Village" BBS 24/7 multiplatform 503-325-2905 
 Chancellor of Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447 

.... He who lives by the Sword. Dies by the Clothyard Shaft.
-=- QWKRR128 V5.10 [R]
                                                        
-- 
D4 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= D8 
D10 Commodore PCs, Sci/Fi/Fan, Fantasy, Espionage, Role Playing Games  D20   
D6 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C=D30
0
lordronin (185)
10/28/2003 11:15:08 PM
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Believe it or not, I see the BBS system as the future of hard core
computing, and modern day sysops as keepers of the faith who will one day
not that far off enlighten us again on the in's and out's of running our own
networks.

Yes. The Internet all but killed the BBS. But the irony is, that same
Internet will eventually bring it back.
While a lot of good has come from the internet, the recent actions by the
RIAA and actual Law enforcement Agency in the wake of 9-11 make the internet
an unsafe place for many of us. What WAS shaping up to the worlds most
powerful library, and holy grail of democracy where any idea could be shared
instantly with everyone who wanted to listen to it, is being twisted into a
corporate spam machine and legislated into becoming an open door into every
piece of information you hold important.

At the same time it is driving development of a new faster, albeit shorter
range "modem" system. WiFi.

I'm predicting that at some point in the next five years the Internet will
become so draconian that most people will shy away from it out of fear of
some government agency snooping into their lives, or some "private" e-mail,
IM, or other communication protocol being invaded by some one else.
Microsoft and many other people want to charge you on a monthly basis for
the OS running on your machine. Net computer terminals and computer
appliances are their vision of our future. One devoid of any true privacy.

Enter the BBS system with WiFi becoming pervasive, computer "Purists" can
set up their own adhok networks that are actually NOT on the Internet. A
truly private WEB of networks run by those with the skills and determination
make a network not controlled by corporate monsters. It will be a hybrid of
the old BBS/Ham Radio/CB culture that works on the old principles of
relaying information instead of peer to peer connections through what has
become a public and policed  network.


<lordronin@news.vcsweb.com> wrote in message news:bnmt9s$q4a$1@vcsweb.com...
> Subject: Why Do SySop's Exist ???
>
> Hoi Wlbbs :
>
> On 26 Oct'03, at 14:45, in a message to All , you Scribed:
>
>
>  WL> One follow up said... " many people don't
>  WL> even know what a BB's is !!!"
>
>  That may have been me. Been writing about that in C= publications
> recently as a topic.
>
>
>  WL> Why do SysOp's exist ??  ( now known as web-masters and moderators
>
>  Not I, Still a SysOp of the local BBS. Run on a C=128D with 4.3GN HD
> and the SCPU. FD-2000 and swiftlink at 28.8kbps
>
>
>  WL> )....  It's pretty simple... 99 % of us
>  WL> do it because we want to... we
>  WL> get great satisfaction out of knowing our effort is helping someone
>
>  That is true! I wouldn't have spent the bread for the items used and
> the frelling phone line. IF I didn't "wanna" do this trip.
>
>
>  WL> When I shut my BB's down once and for
>  WL> all, after running on a C=64 for
>  WL> 10 years and then an "ibm" for 3 more,
>  WL> the only reason for doing that
>  WL> was the Internet......  simply put.... I
>  WL> was out numbered by the choices
>  WL> of "the WWW.COM ....   In the latter
>  WL> years of my C=64 BB's, the name was
>  WL> changed to The Commie Kazez BBs , because I knew it was suicidal (
>
>  A pity but I understand. Been running mine for close to 7 yeas. First
> on Omni 128 and now on Centipede. Around my little community of about
> 32k pop in the entire county. We had at one time approx 15 boards. All
> on the IBuM system.
>
>  Most faile after a few months. The SysOp just didn't spend the time to
> operate the BBS. This included one for a computer store. The most
> common BBS prg was spitfire. Pay boards died real fast. Only one board
> ran by a polio victim was of major worth. Called it daily. In fact in
> my early days of Computer work. Called it on a monchrome screen <amber>
> in 40c CG at 300baud. Good thing the SysOp had run a C= BBS in Portland
> [Ore] in the 80s and helped me. Good drinking buddy as well.
>
>  Took a long time to get Inet service that wasn't L.D. calls in this
> area. Boards were closing at that time for many reasons. The oldest one
> <Grapevine> Closed when the SysOp - well died from Agent Orange and
> loss of the liver. Nam buddy of mine. Others whose names I have
> forgotten shut down as the high schoolers who ran them, left the area.
> The last BBS to fold was the Hole in the Wall. That because the SysOp
> updated his computer and found out that the upgraded system was not
> fully compatible with the BBS software. Was rather peeved at the
> crashes when callers connected. Mine is still up and gains some local
> callers and L.D. callers. FWIW it is now the official Scene World disk
> mag BBS for the USA. {Ego boost}
>
>
>  WL> SysOp's aren't dead....SysOp's still
>  WL> exist EVERY-WHERE ....  we just
>  WL> call them by different names now.... Webmaster's, Moderators, TECH
>  WL> SUPPORT GUY, ,,,, ect. ect.
>
>  Or in some case we are still SysOps. Stubborn to hang onto something
> that doesn't have spam <well not too much> and no pop ups. Though I am
> speaking from my own boards point.
>
>
>  WL> And the fact is.... 99.9 % of the people
>  WL> these SYSTEM OPERATORS help....
>  WL> still to this day never say Thanks....  some things never do
>  WL> change...........  thats why a lot of them just plain quit.
>
>  Hmmm, that isn't the case with my BBS. The majority of callers in the
> month will thank me for the help I give them. Could be the new feeling
> about the BBS world.
>
> BCNU
>
>  Lord Ronin from Q-Link {Sensei} David O.E. Mohr
>  SysOp of "The Village" BBS 24/7 multiplatform 503-325-2905
>  Chancellor of Amiga & Commodore Users Group #447
>
> ... He who lives by the Sword. Dies by the Clothyard Shaft.
> -=- QWKRR128 V5.10 [R]
>
> -- 
> D4 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= D8
> D10 Commodore PCs, Sci/Fi/Fan, Fantasy, Espionage, Role Playing Games  D20
> D6 C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C= C=D30


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0
Pheuque
10/29/2003 4:35:04 AM
> Enter the BBS system with WiFi becoming pervasive, computer "Purists" can
> set up their own adhok networks that are actually NOT on the Internet. A
> truly private WEB of networks run by those with the skills and
determination
> make a network not controlled by corporate monsters. It will be a hybrid
of
> the old BBS/Ham Radio/CB culture that works on the old principles of
> relaying information instead of peer to peer connections through what has
> become a public and policed  network.

I believe the same thing, but here's an interesting question...

Will the laws currently being passed for the Internet be applicable
to these networks as well?   Yes, I know what your immediate answer is,
but will technophobic judges, etc understand the difference?  For instance,
if someone posts an MP3 on your "private" WiFi network, can the RIAA
hold you responsible?   Bottom line, will networks which employ the
protocols, and hardware of the Internet be considered "the Internet" by
the law(ie: corporate   AARRG!), thus spoiling the advantages?
Is "the Intenet" a definable network?

As for using the "old principles" or relaying information.  If we hadn't
become
lazy and just wired the thing up to "the Internet" we would have many NEW
forms to work with.    Expect us to catch up....

For those of us who are running small businesses, this means it's time to
start thinking about a new business model.   I don't mean making millions
(as with the dotCOM crap) but a way for us to "pay-the-rent" while
making this possible...  I'd be the first ISP to be happy to offer a
better alternative!

Time to start figuring this out now, boys...  The future is arriving
quickly.

Jeff





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http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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0
Jeff
10/29/2003 2:47:20 PM
Jeff Ledger wrote ...

>Will the laws currently being passed for the Internet be applicable
>to these networks as well?   Yes, I know what your immediate answer is,
>but will technophobic judges, etc understand the difference?  For instance,
>if someone posts an MP3 on your "private" WiFi network, can the RIAA
>hold you responsible?   Bottom line, will networks which employ the
>protocols, and hardware of the Internet be considered "the Internet" by
>the law(ie: corporate   AARRG!), thus spoiling the advantages?
>Is "the Intenet" a definable network?

Hate to say this, but copyright laws already apply to the BBS, maybe even
more so than the internet.  This has been the case for over a decade!

I don't remember the exact date, but it was about ten years ago that one of
the largest BBSes in the Dallas area was shut down by the FBI.  (Name of the
board was User 2 User)

Someone zipped up a commercial database program and placed a "file_id.diz"
file in the .zip stating that the contents of the .zip was a shareware
database.  The SysOp read the .diz file in the .zip and released it for
download.  In those days, on busy boards with a hundred or so uploads a day,
it was common practice for the SysOp to check the .diz file and if it looked
OK, release the file.

To make a long story short, the FBI downloaded the file, got a warrant, and
showed up on his doorstep.  They boxed up the six networked computers the
BBS was running on, plus all of his other computers, and every disk in the
house, attic included.  As far as I know he never got _any_ of his stuff
back.

Use 2 User was NOT a pirate board.  In my opinion the SysOp was set up.  By
taking down one of the largest BBSes in the area they (the feds) made an
example out of him.

Bottom line is that BBSes always have been subject to all of the laws that
the internet is subject to, plus a lot of local and state laws that the
internet is immune from.

Best regards,

Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088




0
Sam
10/29/2003 8:38:54 PM
I'm not even gonna snip this letter.....

You are  SO RIGHT Sam....    the horror story below is just barely scratching
the surface of what any SysOp or webmaster has to deal with.......    As a
SysOP.... that File_ID.DIZ .... was the best/ and worst "standard" ever
created.  My BB's was one that automaticly read that file and added it to the
downloads... as a SysOp , all I "really" had to do was read the DIZ text file
and either approve it or reject it....  I never had to actually run the upload.
......

A System's Operator, only has so much time in a day....  but as I swear on the
Bible... the SysOp WILL be held responsible for EVERY -THING that his BB's or
server contain's.......  like Sam said below...  it's sad... but what Sam says
is all true..and has been for years.

Today it is even worse, for all you "wanna be" SysOp's ....  20 years ago, the
Feds were seizing our equipment... but only after extensive investigation, or a
"sting" like Sam described below.

Well Your not even CLOSE to being in Kansas these days....  The new "Homeland
Security" act since 9/11 may seem like we are protecting our border's on the
surface..... but it is the biggest infringement on freedom in America that has
existed to date.

It allows the Feds, to act on "suspicion" instead of  PROOF .....  The local
"goon squad" no longer has to PROVIDE evidence your BBs might hold "illeagle"
stuff.... all they have to do is say they "suspect" it does.......  and any
"post 9/11"  judge will sign that search warrant in a heartbeat these days, from
some rookie cop on the beat, just so he isn't considered "un-patriotic" in the
up-coming election...............  oh and if the Fed's do take your stuff....
don't ever expect to see it back again....  like Sam said below.

So--- SysOp's beware....

I do have to dis-agree with Sam on one point.... he says (quote )

> Sam said:
"Bottom line is that BBSes always have been subject to all of the laws that
the internet is subject to, plus a lot of local and state laws that the
internet is immune from."

BB's were the "example" for OLD internet laws...  but yes... local laws played a
part in their operations... but computer savy lawmakers and lobbiest now days...
remember the old "hacking days" of their youth... thats how they got their job
as an "expert witness"

=== my bottom line Sam ===

No - One in the USA is "safe"  on-line.... your ISP records every move you
make.... Email, newsgroup postings, and sites you visit....  Every ISP in the
USA now has to log every IP address activity...  NO they don't "record" your
"keystrokes" , but they log who you are, when you were online, and your
"assigned" IP address for that session...... so you can be traced if you posted
a message that said "Blow up the world" in some newsgroup ( comp.sys.cbm ) or
something

I hated the attack on 9/11 like everyother American.... but our blind adoption
of this "homeland security act" has given the Feds the power of the Gestapo in
WW II....   SysOp's in the USA.... Beware !..... and for the rest of you...
don't even mention any thing like a pair of nail clippers in an airport these
days... or you kiss yer luggage goodbye

God Bless America.....  I just thank God we really do have the freedom here to
challange what our goverment dictates is "right" for us.... even when it's wrong
in whole or part

Sam Gillett wrote:

Hate to say this, but copyright laws already apply to the BBS, maybe even

> more so than the internet.  This has been the case for over a decade!
>
> I don't remember the exact date, but it was about ten years ago that one of
> the largest BBSes in the Dallas area was shut down by the FBI.  (Name of the
> board was User 2 User)
>
> Someone zipped up a commercial database program and placed a "file_id.diz"
> file in the .zip stating that the contents of the .zip was a shareware
> database.  The SysOp read the .diz file in the .zip and released it for
> download.  In those days, on busy boards with a hundred or so uploads a day,
> it was common practice for the SysOp to check the .diz file and if it looked
> OK, release the file.
>
> To make a long story short, the FBI downloaded the file, got a warrant, and
> showed up on his doorstep.  They boxed up the six networked computers the
> BBS was running on, plus all of his other computers, and every disk in the
> house, attic included.  As far as I know he never got _any_ of his stuff
> back.
>
> Use 2 User was NOT a pirate board.  In my opinion the SysOp was set up.  By
> taking down one of the largest BBSes in the area they (the feds) made an
> example out of him.
>
> Bottom line is that BBSes always have been subject to all of the laws that
> the internet is subject to, plus a lot of local and state laws that the
> internet is immune from.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088

--
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0
Rick
10/30/2003 3:17:20 AM
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Sam Gillett wrote:
|I don't remember the exact date, but it was about ten years ago that
|one of the largest BBSes in the Dallas area was shut down by the FBI.
|(Name of the board was User 2 User)

What was the name of that Steve Jackson BBS case?  Or did the feds
just waltz in and claim he was BBSing, regardless of whether he even
had anything to do with BBSes or pirated software?  That case was
from Texas, wasn't it?

0
Matthew
10/30/2003 5:03:55 AM
Matthew Montchalin wrote ...

>What was the name of that Steve Jackson BBS case?  Or did the feds
>just waltz in and claim he was BBSing, regardless of whether he even
>had anything to do with BBSes or pirated software?  That case was
>from Texas, wasn't it?

Sorry, but Steve Jackson doesn't ring any bells.  There was a big case in
Austin 10 or 15 years ago, but I don't remember any details other than it
involved a BBS run by a software company.

Best regards,

Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088




0
Sam
10/30/2003 8:55:23 PM
I love the Internet....  do a search for "bbs sysop arrested" ... you won't
believe what pops up !

here is a real scary one
http://www.textfiles.com/bbs/bbsburn.txt

Rick

Commodore Software on a CD Rom !!!!
    Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs


Sam Gillett wrote:

> Matthew Montchalin wrote ...
>
> >What was the name of that Steve Jackson BBS case?  Or did the feds
> >just waltz in and claim he was BBSing, regardless of whether he even
> >had anything to do with BBSes or pirated software?  That case was
> >from Texas, wasn't it?
>
> Sorry, but Steve Jackson doesn't ring any bells.  There was a big case in
> Austin 10 or 15 years ago, but I don't remember any details other than it
> involved a BBS run by a software company.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088

0
Rick
10/30/2003 11:13:21 PM
Sam Gillett wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin wrote ...
|
|>What was the name of that Steve Jackson BBS case?  Or did the feds
|>just waltz in and claim he was BBSing, regardless of whether he even
|>had anything to do with BBSes or pirated software?  That case was
|>from Texas, wasn't it?
|
|Sorry, but Steve Jackson doesn't ring any bells.

Steve Jackson Games, a company that was in association with, or derived
from, Metagaming Concepts, I believe.  They were just starting out in
software, I think.

|There was a big case in Austin 10 or 15 years ago, but I don't remember
|any details other than it involved a BBS run by a software company.

Isn't that where Steve Jackson Games was organized?

0
Matthew
10/31/2003 12:15:01 AM
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003, Sam Gillett wrote:
|Sorry, but Steve Jackson doesn't ring any bells.  There was a big case in
|Austin 10 or 15 years ago, but I don't remember any details other than it
|involved a BBS run by a software company.

Maybe Rick Balkins could comment on it?

0
Matthew
10/31/2003 12:17:42 AM
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 16:13:21 -0700, Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net>
wrote:

>I love the Internet....  do a search for "bbs sysop arrested" ... you won't
>believe what pops up !
>
>here is a real scary one
>http://www.textfiles.com/bbs/bbsburn.txt
>
>Rick
>

Yeah, I recall the Davis case.  It was a pretty famous case, and a lot
of us sysops were watching it.  The OK City detectives were actually
pretty much "Keystone Cops" in technique, but what they put Tony
through was totally bogus.

Another famous case was the "Amateur Action BBS" of Milpitas, CA. ca.
1994.  "AA BBS" was an adult BBS that somehow drew the ire of a rabid
US Postal Inspector in a totally different state, Tennessee!  The
Inspector (David Dirmeyer) even mailed *unsolicitated* child-porn to
the sysop and *forged* documents to the effect that the sysop
requested it in order to ensure a prosecution!  (Those counts were
quickly dismissed in court).  The sysops (Robert and Carleen Thomas, a
husband/wife team) were eventually sentenced to approx 3 and 2 years
respectively on charges that they shipped videotapes featuring
"bestiality" from California to Tennessee. 

There was a lot of buzz over the AA case among the adult BBS sysop
crowd, as it looked like any local yokal cop in a Bible-Belt community
could use Interstate Commerce laws to close down a BBS anywhere in the
US if he wanted tp.  The more paranoid sysops thought the
investigation to have been sopnsored by the Justice Dept. in order to
set precedent for closing down all adult BBS'es.  (Hehehe... Much ado
about nothing - Compare it to the internet nowadays and all the
sex-spammers that plague the newsgroups and email boxes!!!) 


At the time I was the sysop of a mostly geek-technoid Fidonet BBS. I
kept up with the legal stuff having to do with telecommunications
after PGP and other public key encryption came out, and Phil Zimmerman
(PGP author) started having  problems with the Feds over PGP.

Those were some interesting times...
0
Jack
10/31/2003 1:33:55 AM
Matthew Montchalin wrote ...

>Steve Jackson Games, a company that was in association with, or derived
>from, Metagaming Concepts, I believe.  They were just starting out in
>software, I think.

I found this on the internet:

http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/SJG/

On that page you will find dozens of links to various text files giving all
the details on the case of Steve Jackson Games vs. United States Secret
Service.

If you are really interested in the Steve Jackson case, it will be worth
firing up a web browser.

Best regards,

Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088




0
Sam
10/31/2003 4:00:58 AM
Sam Gillett wrote:
|Matthew Montchalin wrote ...
|
|>Steve Jackson Games, a company that was in association with, or derived
|>from, Metagaming Concepts, I believe.  They were just starting out in
|>software, I think.
|
|I found this on the internet:
|
|http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/SJG/
|
|On that page you will find dozens of links to various text files
|giving all the details on the case of Steve Jackson Games vs. United
|States Secret Service.

Okay, that sounds like the case.  It was pretty famous, way back when.

|If you are really interested in the Steve Jackson case, it will be
|worth firing up a web browser.

Is there a published opinion or two that can be shepardized?

0
Matthew
10/31/2003 5:46:35 AM
While there isn't much we can do about Homeland Security, a private network
is just that. Even the federal government is not immune to the DMCA. Hacking
into a private system would be clearly illegal and anything gathered that
was would inadmissible. What we need to do is have an authentication login
contract that requires any one using the private network to reveal if they
are a member of Law Enforcement or a Corporate entity. The only reason
people are confused about Peer to Peer Networking is that they don't
understand that each connection is a personal communication like a telephone
call.

Suing people for file sharing should be illegal because one member of the
communication is falsely representing themselves and revealing information
that was exchanged privately. I can't use a recording of  you in court
unless I can prove there was a reasonable reason to believe you knew I was
recording you. Even then it's sketchy.

"Rick Youngman" <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:3FA082C0.17E745DB@citlink.net...
> I'm not even gonna snip this letter.....
>
> You are  SO RIGHT Sam....    the horror story below is just barely
scratching
> the surface of what any SysOp or webmaster has to deal with.......    As a
> SysOP.... that File_ID.DIZ .... was the best/ and worst "standard" ever
> created.  My BB's was one that automaticly read that file and added it to
the
> downloads... as a SysOp , all I "really" had to do was read the DIZ text
file
> and either approve it or reject it....  I never had to actually run the
upload.
> .....
>
> A System's Operator, only has so much time in a day....  but as I swear on
the
> Bible... the SysOp WILL be held responsible for EVERY -THING that his BB's
or
> server contain's.......  like Sam said below...  it's sad... but what Sam
says
> is all true..and has been for years.
>
> Today it is even worse, for all you "wanna be" SysOp's ....  20 years ago,
the
> Feds were seizing our equipment... but only after extensive investigation,
or a
> "sting" like Sam described below.
>
> Well Your not even CLOSE to being in Kansas these days....  The new
"Homeland
> Security" act since 9/11 may seem like we are protecting our border's on
the
> surface..... but it is the biggest infringement on freedom in America that
has
> existed to date.
>
> It allows the Feds, to act on "suspicion" instead of  PROOF .....  The
local
> "goon squad" no longer has to PROVIDE evidence your BBs might hold
"illeagle"
> stuff.... all they have to do is say they "suspect" it does.......  and
any
> "post 9/11"  judge will sign that search warrant in a heartbeat these
days, from
> some rookie cop on the beat, just so he isn't considered "un-patriotic" in
the
> up-coming election...............  oh and if the Fed's do take your
stuff....
> don't ever expect to see it back again....  like Sam said below.
>
> So--- SysOp's beware....
>
> I do have to dis-agree with Sam on one point.... he says (quote )
>
> > Sam said:
> "Bottom line is that BBSes always have been subject to all of the laws
that
> the internet is subject to, plus a lot of local and state laws that the
> internet is immune from."
>
> BB's were the "example" for OLD internet laws...  but yes... local laws
played a
> part in their operations... but computer savy lawmakers and lobbiest now
days...
> remember the old "hacking days" of their youth... thats how they got their
job
> as an "expert witness"
>
> === my bottom line Sam ===
>
> No - One in the USA is "safe"  on-line.... your ISP records every move you
> make.... Email, newsgroup postings, and sites you visit....  Every ISP in
the
> USA now has to log every IP address activity...  NO they don't "record"
your
> "keystrokes" , but they log who you are, when you were online, and your
> "assigned" IP address for that session...... so you can be traced if you
posted
> a message that said "Blow up the world" in some newsgroup ( comp.sys.cbm )
or
> something
>
> I hated the attack on 9/11 like everyother American.... but our blind
adoption
> of this "homeland security act" has given the Feds the power of the
Gestapo in
> WW II....   SysOp's in the USA.... Beware !..... and for the rest of
you...
> don't even mention any thing like a pair of nail clippers in an airport
these
> days... or you kiss yer luggage goodbye
>
> God Bless America.....  I just thank God we really do have the freedom
here to
> challange what our goverment dictates is "right" for us.... even when it's
wrong
> in whole or part
>
> Sam Gillett wrote:
>
> Hate to say this, but copyright laws already apply to the BBS, maybe even
>
> > more so than the internet.  This has been the case for over a decade!
> >
> > I don't remember the exact date, but it was about ten years ago that one
of
> > the largest BBSes in the Dallas area was shut down by the FBI.  (Name of
the
> > board was User 2 User)
> >
> > Someone zipped up a commercial database program and placed a
"file_id.diz"
> > file in the .zip stating that the contents of the .zip was a shareware
> > database.  The SysOp read the .diz file in the .zip and released it for
> > download.  In those days, on busy boards with a hundred or so uploads a
day,
> > it was common practice for the SysOp to check the .diz file and if it
looked
> > OK, release the file.
> >
> > To make a long story short, the FBI downloaded the file, got a warrant,
and
> > showed up on his doorstep.  They boxed up the six networked computers
the
> > BBS was running on, plus all of his other computers, and every disk in
the
> > house, attic included.  As far as I know he never got _any_ of his stuff
> > back.
> >
> > Use 2 User was NOT a pirate board.  In my opinion the SysOp was set up.
By
> > taking down one of the largest BBSes in the area they (the feds) made an
> > example out of him.
> >
> > Bottom line is that BBSes always have been subject to all of the laws
that
> > the internet is subject to, plus a lot of local and state laws that the
> > internet is immune from.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088
>
> --
> **********************************************
>          Commodore Software on a CD Rom !!!!
>        Thousands of Games, Utilities and MORE !!!
>     Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
>           ( October Special expires soon )
> **********************************************
>
>


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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0
Pheuque
10/31/2003 5:57:47 AM
Matthew Montchalin wrote ...

>Sam Gillett wrote:

>|I found this on the internet:
>|
>|http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/SJG/

>Okay, that sounds like the case.  It was pretty famous, way back when.
>
>|If you are really interested in the Steve Jackson case, it will be
>|worth firing up a web browser.
>
>Is there a published opinion or two that can be shepardized?

I browsed through some of the files at the URL above quickly.  Not sure, but
I think one of the text files contains the judges ruling on the case word
for word.

However, in the link provided by Rick Youngman, it is clear that the
Oklahoma City police ignored the Federal judge's ruling a few years later,
as did the FBI when they took down User 2 User BBS in Dallas.

The winning of one battle does not mean that the war for electronic freedom
is over.

Best regards,

Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088




0
Sam
10/31/2003 5:46:07 PM
Sam Gillett wrote:

> Matthew Montchalin wrote ...
> 
> 
>>Sam Gillett wrote:
> 
> 
>>|I found this on the internet:
>>|
>>|http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/SJG/
> 
> 
>>Okay, that sounds like the case.  It was pretty famous, way back when.
>>
>>|If you are really interested in the Steve Jackson case, it will be
>>|worth firing up a web browser.
>>
>>Is there a published opinion or two that can be shepardized?
> 
> 
> I browsed through some of the files at the URL above quickly.  Not sure, but
> I think one of the text files contains the judges ruling on the case word
> for word.
> 
> However, in the link provided by Rick Youngman, it is clear that the
> Oklahoma City police ignored the Federal judge's ruling a few years later,
> as did the FBI when they took down User 2 User BBS in Dallas.
> 
> The winning of one battle does not mean that the war for electronic freedom
> is over.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Sam Gillett aka Mars Probe @ Starship Intrepid 1-972-221-4088
> 

THE HACKER CRACKDOWN
Law and Disorder on the Electronic Frontier
by Bruce Sterling
(1994)  Literary Freeware

http://www.eff.org/Misc/Publications/Bruce_Sterling/Hacker_Crackdown/

(676K) Text version at my site:
ftp://c-shore.com/Crackdown.txt


It explains a lot about the Steve Jackson case and how it came about.

A good read.


Max of Mad (Former c= BBS Sysop)
-- 
Leave a tone after the message




0
Max
10/31/2003 11:22:49 PM
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Sam Gillett wrote:
|>|If you are really interested in the Steve Jackson case, it will be
|>|worth firing up a web browser.
|>
|>Is there a published opinion or two that can be shepardized?
|
|I browsed through some of the files at the URL above quickly.  Not sure, but
|I think one of the text files contains the judges ruling on the case word
|for word.
|
|However, in the link provided by Rick Youngman, it is clear that the
|Oklahoma City police ignored the Federal judge's ruling a few years
|later, as did the FBI when they took down User 2 User BBS in Dallas.
|
|The winning of one battle does not mean that the war for electronic
|freedom is over.

Courtroom battles can go any so far, eventually there have to be
a multiplicity of computer platforms for freedom to survive.

0
Matthew
10/31/2003 11:43:50 PM
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003, Pheuque wrote:
|Believe it or not, I see the BBS system as the future of hard core
|computing, and modern day sysops as keepers of the faith who will
|one day not that far off enlighten us again on the in's and out's
|of running our own networks.
|
|Yes.

Maybe.

|The Internet all but killed the BBS. But the irony is, that same
|Internet will eventually bring it back.

'Networks' - however you want to define them - tend to change with
time.  Ten to twelve years ago, there existed Commodore 'networks'
that passed data between themselves - just as PC 'networks' passed
data between themselves.  The nature of the information transfer
will probably change a little bit, but if that's all that a BBS
is, a point in an information-transfer grid, then it is a moot point
you are mulling over.

|While a lot of good has come from the internet, the recent actions
|by the RIAA and actual Law enforcement Agency in the wake of 9-11
|make the internet an unsafe place for many of us. What WAS shaping up
|to the worlds most powerful library,

Depositing information in one place - the sysop's harddrive - is not
the only thing that a BBS concerns itself with.  It also concerns
itself with local events and happenings, and a place to discuss
things that are inherently local to the BBS.

|and holy grail of democracy where any idea could be shared instantly
|with everyone who wanted to listen to it, is being twisted into a
|corporate spam machine and legislated into becoming an open door
|into every piece of information you hold important.
|
|At the same time it is driving development of a new faster, albeit
|shorter range "modem" system. WiFi.

WiFi?  What's that?  It sounds like something new.  Can I access
it with my 1200 baud modem set to 1800 baud?  (Yes, that kind of
connection is possible.)

|I'm predicting that at some point in the next five years the Internet
|will become so draconian that most people will shy away from it out
|of fear of some government agency snooping into their lives, or some
|"private" e-mail, IM, or other communication protocol being invaded
|by some one else.

hm

|Microsoft and many other people want to charge you on a monthly basis
|for the OS running on your machine.

Sounds like one of those W.C. Fields sayings about suckers applies
here.

|Net computer terminals and computer appliances are their vision of our
|future. One devoid of any true privacy.

ok

|Enter the BBS system with WiFi becoming pervasive, computer "Purists"
|can set up their own adhok networks that are actually NOT on the
|Internet.

What does WiFi stand for?

|A truly private WEB of networks run by those with the skills and
|determination make a network not controlled by corporate monsters.
|It will be a hybrid of the old BBS/Ham Radio/CB culture that works
|on the old principles of relaying information instead of peer to
|peer connections through what has become a public and policed network.

Well, I'd hate to pass source code from here to there by Internet,
that's for sure.  I'd rather mail little 3.5 inch disks to people
actually interested in programming.

0
Matthew
11/3/2003 5:24:09 AM
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in 
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0311022114140.26280-100000@lab.oregonvos.net:
 
> Maybe.
>  
> 'Networks' - however you want to define them - tend to change with
> time.  Ten to twelve years ago, there existed Commodore 'networks'
> that passed data between themselves - just as PC 'networks' passed
> data between themselves.  The nature of the information transfer
> will probably change a little bit, but if that's all that a BBS
> is, a point in an information-transfer grid, then it is a moot point
> you are mulling over.
> 
> Depositing information in one place - the sysop's harddrive - is not
> the only thing that a BBS concerns itself with.  It also concerns
> itself with local events and happenings, and a place to discuss
> things that are inherently local to the BBS.
>  
> WiFi?  What's that?  It sounds like something new.  Can I access
> it with my 1200 baud modem set to 1800 baud?  (Yes, that kind of
> connection is possible.)

WiFi is simply a term referring to Wireless Ethernet. Meaning that 
through a Wireless Access Point/Router hooked to you Ethernet network 
which may be cannect to the internet through a T1, Cable/DSL ect. ect. & 
and possibly through a computer equipped with a Modem to the internet 
(acting as a Server and providing you access to the modem from another 
computer in your "local area" network or "home area" network. 

What you need is a wireless ethernet "card"/adapter/cartridge which uses 
one of the several WiFi protocols, a wireless access point/router, and a 
computer equipped as a server or a Cable/DSL modem to hook you up to the 
Internet. The wireless card that hooks to your PC must support the same 
protocols as the wireless access point/router. Which means if the 
Wireless Access Point/Router supports the 802.11b protocol then your 
wireless ethernet card/adapter must support 802.11b or 802.11g which is 
backward compatible with 802.11b protocol. The number here is a protocol.

The wireless Access Point/Router takes a wireless signal and convert it 
to electrical signals to be sent to the main router/Server/Cable or DSL 
"modem or box" and vice versa. The wireless adapter retrieves the 
wireless signals and converts it electrical signals in which the computer 
can use and transmits to the wireless access point/router in an RF 
frequency. Common units are 2.4GHz or 5 GHz these day as the frequency.

I am sure this will come about some time. Bandwidth capacity are from 11 
Mbps ~ 54 Mbps "half" & "full" duplex. Full duplex gives effectively 108 
Mbps throughput. 100 Mbps ethernet cards can give upto 200 Mbps 
throughput. Wireless networking of ethernet networks can give you the 
benefit of not having wires all over your house. Just watch out for 
Aluminum ducting.

> 
> hm
>  
> Sounds like one of those W.C. Fields sayings about suckers applies
> here.
>  
> ok
> 
>|Enter the BBS system with WiFi becoming pervasive, computer "Purists"
>|can set up their own adhok networks that are actually NOT on the
>|Internet.

They don't have to be ad hoc but be connected to a local area network 
that is not necassarily connected to the internet. Virtually creating a 
BBN (Bulletin Board Network) or BBS Network or the other BBS definition 
"Bulletin Board Service".

Having a Dial-Up Access Server in the network will service your dial up 
users and provide a way to send data out from say a Login Server to the 
dial up users. A WiFi server for your wireless people and an TCP/IP 
Internet/Web server (OPTIONAL) to provide a means for people to link to 
your BBS network from across the web. In some cases - one computer can 
serve two or three or all of these roles if it is equipped to do so and 
has the processing power to do it. There is a way for a dial up server to 
support multiple dial-up connections at once via a Modem rack to a rack 
of Telephone connection lines.

> What does WiFi stand for?

See my message above. I have WiFi setup in my ethernet network.
 
>|A truly private WEB of networks run by those with the skills and
>|determination make a network not controlled by corporate monsters.
>|It will be a hybrid of the old BBS/Ham Radio/CB culture that works
>|on the old principles of relaying information instead of peer to
>|peer connections through what has become a public and policed network.
> 
> Well, I'd hate to pass source code from here to there by Internet,
> that's for sure.  I'd rather mail little 3.5 inch disks to people
> actually interested in programming.

Also make sure your "home" network is secure. BTW: Wireless network 
devices are not intended to be used beyond the 300 ft. from any given 
access point/router. (Think of these as antennas transceivers capable of 
handling virtually upto 253 users at a time - which is ultimately the 
case in most networks without resorting to more advance networking 
techniques which I rather not discuss at this time. (Sub-Net Masking and 
the sort) It is too late at night to go about a lecture on this.

 

0
wildstar
11/3/2003 6:59:10 AM
On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
|>|A truly private WEB of networks run by those with the skills and
|>|determination make a network not controlled by corporate monsters.
|>|It will be a hybrid of the old BBS/Ham Radio/CB culture that works
|>|on the old principles of relaying information instead of peer to
|>|peer connections through what has become a public and policed network.
|>
|> Well, I'd hate to pass source code from here to there by Internet,
|> that's for sure.  I'd rather mail little 3.5 inch disks to people
|> actually interested in programming.
|
|Also make sure your "home" network is secure.

Snailmail is at least *one* magnitude more secure than packet passing.

|BTW: Wireless network devices are not intended to be used beyond the
|300 ft. from any given access point/router. (Think of these as antennas
|transceivers capable of handling virtually upto 253 users at a time -
|which is ultimately the case in most networks without resorting to more
|advance networking techniques which I rather not discuss at this time.
|(Sub-Net Masking and the sort) It is too late at night to go about a
|lecture on this.

Ok

0
Matthew
11/3/2003 7:12:26 AM
One more time...

SysOps exist.... because they want to ....  there is no longer a demand
for a BBs.... the internet killed that.... and most of us "old time"
SysOps are to blame for our own demise..... we cut the path thru the
forest so to speak...... and the masses of people who followed, over ran
us.

Even back then... we did it because we wanted too...  almost all BBs
were free then ...  it was a labor of love... and community.

In this age of the internet,  I stead-fastly believe, that for BB's to
be "worthwhile" for a Sysop, is for it to once again become a
"community" BULLETIN BOARD.... and thats it....strictly a LOCAL
BBs.....   no-one in this day and age is going to attempt using a "black
box" like we did in the old daze to make free long distance calls.....
they have the internet now for that !

After 20 years online... I personally think the time is right for a
re-surgence of "local" boards....  people are getting very frustrated
with constant "pop-up" adds...... not to mention the junk email ....
and more they have to endure on the internet now.....

Just like "tie-dyed Tshirts" are back in style, so will be locally run
BB's....  all we have to do is figgure out away to make them available
to the "point and clickers". ( ASCII or RIP grafix is not even on the
discussion page )... Jeff Ledger seems to have a GREAT solution, by
using "antique" ISP routers and software........  this stuff is dirt
cheap these days... and perfect for a SysOp ..... I'm testing my new
hardware even as we speak
--
**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/4/2003 1:03:20 AM
Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market. They are called 
Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days. I am thinking of integrating 
webserver/full ANSI/UNIX/C= C/G & PETSCII "multi-user" capable BBS but I am 
in midst of several projects and that is one that I plan to work on in the 
coming years. I want to support HTML/CML in the future and incorporate that 
as part of a feature for us. Of course the Terminal Emulation/HTML/CML 
viewing browser will have to be made.

This will be something I plan to run someday - perhaps on a C-One in the 
future.

Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in news:3FA6FAD7.AC88A000
@citlink.net:

> One more time...
> 
> SysOps exist.... because they want to ....  there is no longer a demand
> for a BBs.... the internet killed that.... and most of us "old time"
> SysOps are to blame for our own demise..... we cut the path thru the
> forest so to speak...... and the masses of people who followed, over 
<<< snip >>>
0
wildstar
11/4/2003 6:06:41 AM
wildstar wrote:

> Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market. They are called
> Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.

Well Duh ???   That is exactly what Jeff has suggested by using a TCP/IP router
from old ISP's to make a BBs accessable to the "point and clickers" of the
internet, by just adding a "my connection" to their Netscape or Explorer
browser.

The router Jeff suggested can handle 30 phone lines/modems ( or just one )....
and route the call to your desktop PC running your BBs....  if your BBs can
handle 30 nodes... you could logicly have 30 modems stacked up and run a mini
"ISP" with intenet accsess to boot if you wanted too for that matter.

These old serial router's are a dime a dozen these days.... and adding an
ethernet link to your PC is easy for those that have an "old" PC...( new ones
have that built in )   from there, running a BBs for the "point and clickers"
is just a matter of what HTML BBs software you run ( or write )

When I get my "next" BBs up and running with TCP/IP ,  my file section will of
course be focused on C=ommodore stuff......  but it could be anything a SysOp
wants it to be...... the "actual Bulletin Boards" is a matter of choice to

The idea is to put the BBs on YOUR desk, and not be "hosted" by some ISP ( who
you have to pay ) ... not to mention the $$$ to internic  to register
mybbs.com   or something........  and to be in complete and total control over
your BBs at all times.

If we don't cater to the lamer's who have not a clue what ASCII is, or telnet
let alone a terminal program, we have lost 90 % of the people on-line these
days.....  I personally am really looking forward to putting up a local BBs
again with the "look and feel" of what online users are used to these days (
the internet) ...  from there... it should be a lot of fun again.

So tell me  "wildstar"... do you know what a black or red box is ????


**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/5/2003 12:15:49 AM
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
|Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market.

Are they?

|They are called Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.

No, Rick, a dial-up webserver is NOT a BBS.

0
Matthew
11/5/2003 2:08:45 AM
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
|On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
||Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market.
|
|Are they?
|
||They are called Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.
|
|No, Rick, a dial-up webserver is NOT a BBS.

I may have been a little hasty in my judgment.  For instance, I have
a 'neighbor' in Toledo that has a BBS which also is capable of passing
packets to other peers on the Web, so that might be what you were
thinking of.  But the fact is, there is plenty of room for all kinds
of BBSes with all kinds of packet-swapping capabilities, one-way
routing, two-way routing, &c.

0
Matthew
11/5/2003 4:31:26 AM
Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in
news:3FA84135.3E18FF37@citlink.net: 

<<< snip >>>

> If we don't cater to the lamer's who have not a clue what ASCII is, or
> telnet let alone a terminal program, we have lost 90 % of the people
> on-line these days.....  I personally am really looking forward to
> putting up a local BBs again with the "look and feel" of what online
> users are used to these days ( the internet) ...  from there... it
> should be a lot of fun again. 
> 
> So tell me  "wildstar"... do you know what a black or red box is ????

I have used BBSs myself but yes I can tell what a black box is and a red 
box is but I am not certain to what your aim is by the question. 

I just simple like to support a wide variety of options and setups.
0
wildstar
11/5/2003 4:38:32 AM
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in 
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0311041807360.29777-100000@lab.oregonvos.net:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
>|Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market.
> 
> Are they?
> 
>|They are called Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.
> 
> No, Rick, a dial-up webserver is NOT a BBS.
> 

Actually they are. That is effectively what they are. Essentially a BBS is 
a Dial-Up Data-Center in which you log into. Think when you dial up to 
these system you often have to log in. They simply try to evolve them. They 
simply are an evolution of BBSs for specific uses. Since all a BBS 
(Electronic Bulletin Board) needs is a log in and a message. These system 
can very much do so. By technicality that is the case.

0
wildstar
11/5/2003 4:43:40 AM
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in 
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0311042023230.6117-100000@lab.oregonvos.net:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
>|On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
>||Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market.
>|
>|Are they?
>|
>||They are called Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.
>|
>|No, Rick, a dial-up webserver is NOT a BBS.
> 
> I may have been a little hasty in my judgment.  For instance, I have
> a 'neighbor' in Toledo that has a BBS which also is capable of passing
> packets to other peers on the Web, so that might be what you were
> thinking of.  But the fact is, there is plenty of room for all kinds
> of BBSes with all kinds of packet-swapping capabilities, one-way
> routing, two-way routing, &c.
> 

That is true and in other ways modern "Webserver" systems are essentially 
BBSs on the internal infrastructure. Considering BBSs from the early 
1980s in basic user features with modern features such as packet 
switching and ethernet networking. That is essentially what they did - 
years ago and renamed it. As they added new features - they eventually 
gave it a new name at some point and eventually landed with "webserver". 
Since a BBS is aka a Dial-Up Server. (Dial-Up Servers is the 1990s new 
name for BBS because some young coder wanted to make a name for 
him/herself and give a new fancy name. Then add features to provide 
Internet/Web content and services - they can up with webserver aka Dial-
Up WebServer. Not all BBS system had login names but most did. Somewhat 
the case with Webservers but it has became quite popular with broadband 
system to not have typed in login.

These days, it really depends on use. These days, BBS is commonly used to 
refer to such setups that provide local message bases/forums and local 
news. Hinting the sense "electronic bulletin board". In terms of our 
local BBS, that is different and I intend to provide my own BBS platform 
in the future.

0
wildstar
11/5/2003 6:29:32 AM
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
|> I may have been a little hasty in my judgment.  For instance, I have
|> a 'neighbor' in Toledo that has a BBS which also is capable of passing
|> packets to other peers on the Web, so that might be what you were
|> thinking of.  But the fact is, there is plenty of room for all kinds
|> of BBSes with all kinds of packet-swapping capabilities, one-way
|> routing, two-way routing, &c.
|
|That is true and in other ways modern "Webserver" systems are
|essentially BBSs on the internal infrastructure. Considering BBSs
|from the early 1980s in basic user features with modern features
|such as packet switching and ethernet networking.

I can understand the convenience of maintaining huge buffers of
packets, with each packet having a route in its header (and a
suggested alternate route), and the next thing you know, you've
got thousands of such packets, all sorted into lists, all for
the sake of facilitating distribution, and propagation, but can
you comment on 'ethernet?'  I don't believe I have ever had a use
for it, whatever it is.  Is it like, say, a leecher's network?
For people who had an unnatural need to collect and share software?

0
Matthew
11/5/2003 7:58:06 AM
Since this thread seems to be dominating lately, I'll share my thoughts on
the subject...

Q: Why do I want to run a BBS?

A: It's a way to build a little community of my own around me.  People with
common interests hang out from time to time and we share software and cool
ideas.  And we have fun discussions.

Q: Why don't I want to run a more mainstream website instead of a more
klunky telnet bbs or (God forbid) a dial up BBS?

A: Being on the internet is like being in the middle of a huge crowd.  There
are just to many people, doing to many things around you that you're not all
that interested in, and they just get in your way.  I want to hang out where
"everybody knows my name" (queue Cheers theme) and I can quickly get the
info/software I need, all in one place (all related to the **THEME** of the
BBS, most BBS systems lack a *THEME*.  The unsucessfull Sysop just puts up
another copy cat system with the same stupid games and message base topics).
Just like Starbucks, too much of the same thing gets old.

Q: What are my petpeeves about websites:

A:
    1. Usually, just anyone can log on and start post whoring.  I only want
people I invite to hang out.
    2. The minute you advertise, some script kiddie is trying to DoS you
because he can't get a date that evening.
    3. It's getting a little uncomfortable to openly talk about certain
subjects.  Example: I'd never put my old (and obsolete) phreaking files up
on a public website,
        that's just inviting a lawsuit.  On a private BBS where you know
who's logging in a little better, it's not a big deal to me.  Same goes for
warez.  I don't
        think I'd put 10,000 commodore games on a website, but I got no
problem doing it on a private BBS system.
     4. Most HTML based BBS programs **SUCK**.  They are ugly as hell, and
your ISP doesn't normally let you run one anyway.  I do like vBulletin tho.
     5. Pop-ups and *SPAM*

I thinking hacking our 8 bit systems to make them work long after they
should have been recycled is cool.  It's like the B-52, they just keep
hacking it to make it work.  They say it'll be in service until 2040, making
the design almost 100 years old when it retires (and they'll probably try to
go beyond that!).

The people who take the time to set up their end to connect to an 8-bit
system (dialup or telnet) are more likely to be more valuable to the BBS
community they participate in, because they probably have more passion for
the topics discussed than the casual AOL n00b who's not seriouis about the
hobby.

I don't want the 90%'ers who can't bring anything to the table on my system,
they just bother others.  Now, show me a little motiviation that you're
really interested, and I'll let you in my club.


0
microman
11/5/2003 5:57:15 PM
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in 
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0311042352150.18528-100000@lab.oregonvos.net:

 
> I can understand the convenience of maintaining huge buffers of
> packets, with each packet having a route in its header (and a
> suggested alternate route), and the next thing you know, you've
> got thousands of such packets, all sorted into lists, all for
> the sake of facilitating distribution, and propagation, but can
> you comment on 'ethernet?'  I don't believe I have ever had a use
> for it, whatever it is.  Is it like, say, a leecher's network?
> For people who had an unnatural need to collect and share software?
> 

It is a type of networking setup originally developed by Xerox - I believe. 
TCP/IP is a packet protocol used on an ethernet network. Ethernet is a full 
network. Ethernet is not particularly a "leecher's" network but ethernet is 
more or less the physical side of networking. Where it is the protocols and 
software measures that will determine if a leecher can suck down files at 
will and how long they can be connected. I'll explain this later.



0
wildstar
11/5/2003 6:24:03 PM
Well if you know what those are... then you have been around...  and yes
your right, you need to support a variety of options for users to connect
with different machine's.  That was a major downfalls of C=ommodore based
BB's no longer being used when the "ibm'rs" really started going online ( at
baud rates much faster than a C= ) ...  "Baemers couldn't translate our
graphic's... "Beamers" want to 80 colomns too....   I lost many users that
were with me for years, when they bought their first PC...  they tried to
keep supporting the BBs, but it just got boring for them.

I think the most "universal" BBs today will be a HTML based BBs...  thats
what people are used to now, and I doubt any of the "point N clickers" would
even investigate, or navigate a local BBs if it didn't have the graphic's
and the ease of "pointNclick".

I can just see Grandpa Jone's face if he tries to download a file or
picture, and a screen pops up asking if wants to use Xmodem, Zmodem, ASCII,
or Punter protocall ...  that would be priceless.

wildstar wrote:

> I have used BBSs myself but yes I can tell what a black box is and a red
> box is but I am not certain to what your aim is by the question.
>
> I just simple like to support a wide variety of options and setups.

--
**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/5/2003 7:33:14 PM
Exactly Matthew...  once you have the TCP/IP connection, you can route it
to your desktop and be a "BBs", or use it as a gateway to the Web.

Matthew Montchalin wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Matthew Montchalin wrote:
> |On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
> ||Hey Rick Youngman, BBSs are still used in todays market.
> |
> |Are they?
> |
> ||They are called Dial-Up WebServers/WebServers these days.
> |
> |No, Rick, a dial-up webserver is NOT a BBS.
>
> I may have been a little hasty in my judgment.  For instance, I have
> a 'neighbor' in Toledo that has a BBS which also is capable of passing
> packets to other peers on the Web, so that might be what you were
> thinking of.  But the fact is, there is plenty of room for all kinds
> of BBSes with all kinds of packet-swapping capabilities, one-way
> routing, two-way routing, &c.

--
**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/5/2003 7:37:15 PM
I totally agree Microman ....  it is important to keep control of your
BB's "close to home"  your metephor about standing in the middle of huge
crowd on the internet was perfect.

I also agree, there are a lot of really bad HTML BBs programs too....
just as there are for C=ommodore based BBs.....  but there are some good
one's too... Wildcat for instance is very easy to edit, and secure...
with little effort, you can make it appear and run totally different
from the "out of the box" BBs.

--
**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/5/2003 7:53:12 PM
Think of an Ethernet as a "mini" internet....  the difference being that
all the computers hooked to it are at YOUR house..... the more elaborate
you want to be with your "mini internet" , you could have 20 or 30
computers all hooked together, each one "specializing" and "hosting"
it's own "web site" .....  and all would be accesable to the dial-up
caller who logged into "Mathews Mini Internet"
--
**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


0
Rick
11/5/2003 8:10:32 PM
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, wildstar wrote:
|> I can understand the convenience of maintaining huge buffers of
|> packets, with each packet having a route in its header (and a
|> suggested alternate route), and the next thing you know, you've
|> got thousands of such packets, all sorted into lists, all for
|> the sake of facilitating distribution, and propagation, but can
|> you comment on 'ethernet?'  I don't believe I have ever had a use
|> for it, whatever it is.  Is it like, say, a leecher's network?
|> For people who had an unnatural need to collect and share software?
|
|It is a type of networking setup originally developed by Xerox -
|I believe.

If you were to develop a network that depended on packets that
travelled to and fro, how would you do it?

|TCP/IP is a packet protocol used on an ethernet network. Ethernet is
|a full network. Ethernet is not particularly a "leecher's" network
|but ethernet is more or less the physical side of networking.

Minimums have to be met, and maximums should not be exceeded, in
terms of baud rates, and line qualities, and stuff?

|Where it is the protocols and software measures that will determine
|if a leecher can suck down files at will and how long they can be
|connected. I'll explain this later.

Isn't it desirable to get rid of the packets that are tagged as
intended for distribution?

Or is Ethernet a hub-oriented network, and slaves have to wait
for permission to proceed, that sort of thing?

0
Matthew
11/6/2003 12:08:26 AM
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Rick Youngman wrote:
|Exactly Matthew...  once you have the TCP/IP connection, you can route
|it to your desktop and be a "BBs", or use it as a gateway to the Web.

I sure as heck wouldn't use a PC to implement TCP/IP.

0
Matthew
11/6/2003 12:15:59 AM
Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in
news:3FA9507A.1FC782BB@citlink.net: 

> Well if you know what those are... then you have been around...

The Ma Bell "box" codes. :-)

>  and
> yes your right, you need to support a variety of options for users to
> connect with different machine's.  That was a major downfalls of
> C=ommodore based BB's no longer being used when the "ibm'rs" really
> started going online ( at baud rates much faster than a C= ) ... 
> "Baemers couldn't translate our graphic's... "Beamers" want to 80
> colomns too....   I lost many users that were with me for years, when
> they bought their first PC...  they tried to keep supporting the BBs,
> but it just got boring for them. 

Well, yeah.
 
> I think the most "universal" BBs today will be a HTML based BBs... 
> thats what people are used to now, and I doubt any of the "point N
> clickers" would even investigate, or navigate a local BBs if it didn't
> have the graphic's and the ease of "pointNclick".
> 
> I can just see Grandpa Jone's face if he tries to download a file or
> picture, and a screen pops up asking if wants to use Xmodem, Zmodem,
> ASCII, or Punter protocall ...  that would be priceless.

Hehehe, yep. First test would be checking for an "HTTP" detection followed 
by ANSI check - I guess or in reverse order in this case. If ANSI is not 
detected then we must check for C= protocols. A "CMLTP" would be needed to 
test the CML and used with CML "browsers/viewer".
 
0
wildstar
11/6/2003 5:57:29 AM
Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in
news:3FA95937.DD7636A1@citlink.net: 

> Think of an Ethernet as a "mini" internet....  the difference being
> that all the computers hooked to it are at YOUR house..... the more
> elaborate you want to be with your "mini internet" , you could have 20
> or 30 computers all hooked together, each one "specializing" and
> "hosting" it's own "web site" .....  and all would be accesable to the
> dial-up caller who logged into "Mathews Mini Internet"
> --
> **********************************************
>  Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
>  Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
>  Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
> **********************************************
> 
> 
> 

True and this can be a form of a multi-computer Bulletin Board System as
well. The Ethernet is simply an internetworking method. Not to mention
content doesn't have to be HTML and can be simply text or whatever. 

Since a BBS can be defined as a Login Server/service (a service if you
are not dedicating a whole system for that particular task or you are
using multiple computers for this particular task), a Email
Server/service, File Server/service, Message Base Forum Server/service,
ect. in a unified system. 

In a single computer BBS system, each of these tasks (such as Login,
Email, File, Message Base Forum, ect.) as services. Yet a BBS does not
necassarily have to be "1" computer and thus can be multiple computers
(AKA a small local area network/Hint: "Ethernet" based networking of
computers) working in a unified form doing these different tasks to
provide you an independent online service. Though some of these systems
can be expanded to provide "Internet" access connectivity - yet they are
really an independent system. For example Chemeketa Community College in
Salem,Oregon had a BBS setup with access to the web. In this day of age,
BBSs *MUST* evolve. So a Commodore hosted BBS must evolve to keep newer
generations interested. Nevertheless, I do not see us loosing anything
but I see addition. Now a BBS setup for the C-One would be incredible.
0
wildstar
11/6/2003 7:01:13 AM
Matthew Montchalin <mmontcha@OregonVOS.net> wrote in 
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0311051614420.28352-100000@lab.oregonvos.net:

> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Rick Youngman wrote:
>|Exactly Matthew...  once you have the TCP/IP connection, you can route
>|it to your desktop and be a "BBs", or use it as a gateway to the Web.
> 
> I sure as heck wouldn't use a PC to implement TCP/IP.
> 

You don't have to use Windows. You could use the C-One for this when the 
software comes into play. You just need the processing power and throughput 
capacity to handle this at reasonable speed.
0
wildstar
11/6/2003 7:03:35 AM
> I also agree, there are a lot of really bad HTML BBs programs too....
> just as there are for C=ommodore based BBs.....  but there are some good
> one's too... Wildcat for instance is very easy to edit, and secure...
> with little effort, you can make it appear and run totally different
> from the "out of the box" BBs.

I found this true as well... So I wrote my own in perl with a HTML
interface.
Complete with login/password, newuser signup, multiuser chatrooms and main
menu.
I ran it for six months, but it lacked a few important details that exist in
"real" BBS systems.    As a result, I took it down...

1... Real BBS systems require a little knowledge to operate.
Not point and click ease... A little effort on the part of the user to get
in makes for better users.

2... Running a HTML bbs on my own server (was a dedicated ISDN)
lacked the feel of watching the user "run-the-maze" and it's interesting
to watch what people do when dialed into a BBS.

3... Webscreens that "pop" up lack the magic of the old line-by-line
updating of the screen.

I think I got as close as you can get in an HTML bbs, but it lacked the
appeal of a real BBS program.   As a result, I'm working on a "real" BBS.

Jeff (Aka Oldbitcollector)






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0
Jeff
11/7/2003 1:06:35 AM
Here is a thought I had...... probably Jeff Ledger can answer this.... ( I'm
just coming up to speed on this whole router, ethernet thing)  but from what I
can figgure.... the router is programable...

i.e. ....  in coming calls are answered by the modem... and sent to the
router... which in turn translates the protocall  and from there is sent to
your ethernet ( which ever node you have told the router to send it to )

It "appears" the modem, is not much more that a "null modem"... and the router
is actually handeling and maintaining the connection......  so considering
that... it would "seem" that the "firewall" you setup in the router, could
present a simple ASCII screen with a choice of what you are using to connect
(  i.e.   Are you using a [1] A Commodore 64 [2] Windows Explorer [3] A
Macintosh [4] ect. ect. )    and from there be directed to the correct "node"
on your ethernet.....   which can actually include a real live C=ommodore as
well as multiple "beamer" machines.

Like I said, I'm just beginning to experiment with the whole idea of the
router, and using an ethernet, instead of a straight dial-up single computer
BBs....  but what fun it would be if a single modem and router, could answer
the phone and hand the user off to your "beamer" or a real live C=64

**********************************************
 Commodore Software on a CD Rom in D64 Format!
 Games, Utilities, BBs Progarms and MORE !!!
 Click here for info http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs
**********************************************


wildstar wrote:

> Hehehe, yep. First test would be checking for an "HTTP" detection followed
> by ANSI check - I guess or in reverse order in this case. If ANSI is not
> detected then we must check for C= protocols. A "CMLTP" would be needed to
> test the CML and used with CML "browsers/viewer".
>



0
Rick
11/8/2003 10:17:36 PM
Rick Youngman <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in
news:3FAD6B80.AFC5E73B@citlink.net: 

> Here is a thought I had...... probably Jeff Ledger can answer this....
> ( I'm just coming up to speed on this whole router, ethernet thing) 
> but from what I can figgure.... the router is programable...
> 
> i.e. ....  in coming calls are answered by the modem... and sent to
> the router... which in turn translates the protocall  and from there
> is sent to your ethernet ( which ever node you have told the router to
> send it to ) 
> 
> It "appears" the modem, is not much more that a "null modem"... and
> the router is actually handeling and maintaining the connection...... 
> so considering that... it would "seem" that the "firewall" you setup
> in the router, could present a simple ASCII screen with a choice of
> what you are using to connect (  i.e.   Are you using a [1] A
> Commodore 64 [2] Windows Explorer [3] A Macintosh [4] ect. ect. )   
> and from there be directed to the correct "node" on your ethernet.....
>   which can actually include a real live C=ommodore as well as
> multiple "beamer" machines. 

It is configurable. The router is configurable. Typically you enter an 
address code like 192.100.0.0. or something of the sort. You enter the 
admin name & password code into it. Then you would get a HTML based 
firmware configuration utility. All we need to do is process the HTML & 
scripts. It is technically platform independent.

We just need to advance the browser utility somewhat still to handle this 
fully. How pretty the graphics are may not be absolutely required.

0
wildstar
11/9/2003 8:59:49 AM
"Rick Youngman" <wlbbs@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:3FAD6B80.AFC5E73B@citlink.net...
> Here is a thought I had...... probably Jeff Ledger can answer this.... (
I'm
> just coming up to speed on this whole router, ethernet thing)  but from
what I
> can figgure.... the router is programable...
>

Rick,

If I remember right... (It's been a while)  We had our portmasters'
programmed
to either provide a PPP connection or a SHELL connection depending on
the username and password.   This type of conifiguration would allow you
to take calls for your webbased BBS, and still allow callers to be
transfered
to a Telnet Style prompt.   I'm not sure if this was a RADIUS option, but
I think the portmaster directly supports it. (limited number of users)

Check the reference to the manual I sent you....

This would be cool... A C64 BBS that answered off a router.
I'm thinking this might lend itself to a Multi-computer(C64) based
system as well.  <GRIN>   A beuwulf of 64's... 1+1+1+1 = Mhz,
Naaah....  Nevermind... :)

Jeff (Aka Oldbitcollector)





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0
Jeff
11/12/2003 2:15:34 PM
Reply: