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Hard disc scratch

My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
(frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.

Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.

We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
the system to hang.

I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
Scandisk can't overcome this. 
Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?


0
spam152 (134)
11/29/2003 9:44:14 AM
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Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
> 
> Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
> Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
> then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.
> 
> We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
> But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
> the system to hang.
> 
> I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
> when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
> Scandisk can't overcome this. 
> Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
> an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?
> 

First, inform the kid that he'll be paying for the new hard drive unless
he can figure out how to fix it.  That's called "motivation"...and 
behavior modification.
Figure out what model drive you have and go visit the vendor site.
Try to find a repair utility.  Sometimes these can map out bad sections 
of the disk.  Since yours locks up, it's not likely, but worth a try.
Even if it gets fixed, there's likely a pothole in the disk that gets 
crossed even if it's not accessed.  It will get worse.  In any case,
you'll probably have to reload everything.

Back in the old days when drives were expensive, I used to change the 
disk CHS parameters to make the disk think it was smaller. 
Fdisk/reformat and the bad spot never gets accessed.  Not sure that 
works any more cause the translation is internal and not linked to the
physical location in an obvious way.

mike



-- 
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
laptops and parts Test Equipment
Honda CB-125S
TEK Sampling Sweep Plugin and RM564
Tek 2465 $800, ham radio, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

0
spamme01 (155)
11/29/2003 10:56:20 AM
Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
>
> Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
> Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
> then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.
>
> We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
> But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
> the system to hang.
>
> I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
> when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
> Scandisk can't overcome this.
> Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
> an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?

I would rather think that the HD has been a problem for some time.  The
battery removal probably has nothing to do with the issue.  Failing HDs
will hang a computer, usually the first indication that the HD is
failing.

Q


0
quaoar (1575)
11/29/2003 9:52:14 PM
Well removing the batt is a horrid way to reboot a machine... if it locks
beyone OS control usually holding the power switch/button for about five to
ten seconds will turn it off, without even needing to remove the batt, batt
would be last ditch effort for a superhung machine...  As others stated
first thing i would do is find the manufacture of the hard drive and
download their software for it (not the computer maker), you will likely
loose all data on the drive, but it may be the only option, run a "Factory
Recertify" or something similar, it will run a data destructive diagnostics,
then a low level format usually (or you can do them seperately depending on
the software).   Depending on what it reports you can then proceed to
install your OS and software again.  If you can i would recommend removing
the drive and using an adapter to plug it into a PC and copying all data to
another hard disk first (or if you have ghost and a burner just burn an
image of the harddrive to CD(s) so that you have it as a backup.  Good
chance tho that the HD is toast and needs to be replaced...

-- 
HPCode(1.1)-G PS++COS++POA++GOF+++*OOTP+++FF-QS DD+++HB++TR++AR++AT---*CM+++



"Salvador Freemanson" <spam@gohome.com> wrote in message
news:j6qgsvg6cgfjceckhvvivk111t3jdt3bmr@4ax.com...
> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
>
> Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
> Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
> then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.
>
> We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
> But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
> the system to hang.
>
> I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
> when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
> Scandisk can't overcome this.
> Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
> an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?
>
>


0
no197 (47)
11/29/2003 10:02:28 PM
That is an extremely dangerous way of resetting a laptop and should be 
used ONLY in a TRUE emergency.  Yes, it can cause permanent, 
irreversible damage to the laptop (perhaps even beyond the disk drive).

To turn off a non-responding modern computer (desktop or laptop), hold 
down the power button for five FULL seconds (we are taling about REAL, 
FULL seconds here).  The computer will shut down.

The damage to the hard drive may be repairable with the drive 
manufacturer's low level format program, if one is available.  You will 
lose EVERYTHING on the hard drive, even the partition structure.  And 
even if such a utility is available, it may not resolve the problem.

Norton Disk Doctor can do a physical scan and "exclude" the bad sectors, 
but if the damage is physical, you may have started a vicious cycle in 
which more and more sectors become bad over time.


Salvador Freemanson wrote:

> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
> 
> Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
> Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
> then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.
> 
> We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
> But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
> the system to hang.
> 
> I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
> when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
> Scandisk can't overcome this. 
> Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
> an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?
> 
> 

0
WatzmanNOSPAM (5711)
11/30/2003 2:56:38 AM
It's more likely that the problem came from the mechanical shock of 
movement during battery removal than from the loss of power, but either 
way, what his son was doing is an absolutlely horrible and unnecessary 
practice with a high probability -- a near certainty if done often 
enough -- of causing some damage.


Quaoar wrote:

> Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> 
>>My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
>>(frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
>>
>>Now there appears to be a problem on the hard disc.
>>Durning the execution of Scandisk, the scan reaches around 86% and
>>then stops. It just stays there until the system is rebooted.
>>
>>We can get the machine to operate by rebooting and bypassing scandisk.
>>But certain operations, e.g. trying to delete a particular file, cause
>>the system to hang.
>>
>>I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
>>when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
>>Scandisk can't overcome this.
>>Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
>>an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?
> 
> 
> I would rather think that the HD has been a problem for some time.  The
> battery removal probably has nothing to do with the issue.  Failing HDs
> will hang a computer, usually the first indication that the HD is
> failing.
> 
> Q
> 
> 

0
WatzmanNOSPAM (5711)
11/30/2003 3:01:03 AM
I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery should
not damage the hardware in any way. All current harddrives will auto-park
as soon as power is cut. 

In case anybody wonders how this is possible, the rotational energy of the
spindle and maybe a capacitor can provide power for a few moments.
Harddrives are even more intelligent than that and will complete any
transaction, e.g. finish writing a sector. Still amazes me how all this
fits into a 2.5" hdd.

Of course removing the battery it is still a very clumsy thing to do,
pushing the powerbutton for a few seconds (count slowly to 10) almost
always shuts down the machine. 

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:44:14 +0100, Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.

If your system _frequently_ freezes then there's probably already
something wrong. My guess would be that the hdd was broken all the time,
you just have not noticed as it trashed a system file once in a while. But
once somethings wrong on the platter surface you can count on it getting
worse over time.

Cheers & good luck with a new drive
Volker
0
11/30/2003 8:03:21 PM
Scandisk cannot nor was it ever able to fix a hardware problem with a drive, you won't find a software package that will.

-- 


----------------------------------------------------------------
"Salvador Freemanson" <spam@gohome.com> wrote in message news:j6qgsvg6cgfjceckhvvivk111t3jdt3bmr@4ax.com...

> I guess the cause is that there is some kind of scratch on the disc
> when he removed the battery once too often. But I am surprised that
> Scandisk can't overcome this.
> Anyone know of any utility that can perhaps put the bad sectors into
> an "envelope" so that they are simply ignored by the system ?
>
>


0
brooks.dj (19)
12/1/2003 12:16:02 AM
Sometimes a true low-level format can fix a problem.  If this is 
possible for a given drive (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't), the 
software to do it is only available from the drive manufacturer.

However, what quite a few other programs can do is find the bad sector 
and "mark" that sector as bad in the operating system's allocation 
tables (the "FAT" table in FAT drives, NTFS as a functionally equivalent 
data structure).

This does not really "fix" the problem in terms of making the sector 
"good" again.  But it does tell the operating system that this sector 
(cluster, actually) is bad, don't use it, and the operating system will 
from that point forward ignore and never again use that sector to 
contain data.  The matter of whether this is a "fix" thus becomes a 
matter of semantics, but if that is the extent of the problem, and the 
drive is otherwise stable, the user will experience no more problems 
with that drive.

Unfortunately, it is often the case that when a drive fails, more and 
more and more sectors fail in a cascading torrent of failure that soon 
makes simply ignoring the bad sectors impossible.  But not always.



David B. wrote:

> Scandisk cannot nor was it ever able to fix a hardware problem with a drive, you won't find a software package that will.
> 

0
WatzmanNOSPAM (5711)
12/1/2003 2:17:02 AM
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:03:21 -0500, Volker Braun
<volker.braun@physik.hu-berlin.de> wrote:

>I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery should
>not damage the hardware in any way. All current harddrives will auto-park
>as soon as power is cut. 
>
>In case anybody wonders how this is possible, the rotational energy of the
>spindle and maybe a capacitor can provide power for a few moments.
>Harddrives are even more intelligent than that and will complete any
>transaction, e.g. finish writing a sector. Still amazes me how all this
>fits into a 2.5" hdd.
>

Today's laptop harddrives are marvels of engineering that can
withstand amazing  vibration and shock even while operating within
several  degrees of any of the 6 axes which includes upside down.

However, not only are there limits to the type including
repetition frequency of such events (shock and vibration),
operation outside the axes is not within these specifications.
That is a separate  non-operating parameter for shock withstand
for movement/shipping .

Drives are designed to go through a software/hardware power-off
sequence.  This ensures all data is written and the mechanism
safely idled and parked in a shipping/movement configuration..

Yes, today's drives have  emergency power-off (actually power
loss) features that do actually use the inertial rotational
-magnetic energy in reverse to try and cushion against mechanical
damage due to sudden loss of power..

 However: this design presupposes  drives operating in one of the
axes, and even so there can be data loss as writing may be not
completed.   There are also only a limited (albeit many) number of
such emergency power off cycles designed in.. 

 Even in one of the axes this is a  very mechanically stressful
event so _not_. recommended.   Outside an axis the result is
_unpredictable_. 
..
..When removing a pack the laptop is likely to be angled and
jostled.  So as outlined above, even with an idle drive this is a
not a good thing to do until suspend has fully completed (or the
laptop powered off of course).

 On those rare occasions when even depressing the power or suspend
button (try each individually and in combination for up to about
10 seconds) does not shut off the laptop  wait until the drive
does not have head movement, and seems to have idled (usually a
parking sound after some minutes);   Then  turn it over or on its
side if need be.  Wait a bit more then remove the pack all this
with  minimal vibration while the laptop remains perfectly
horizontal or vertical
..  
Again, this is _not_ a recommended normal procedure.  One of the
drives "nine lives" are being used with unpredictable
consequences.
..
>Of course removing the battery it is still a very clumsy thing to do,
>pushing the powerbutton for a few seconds (count slowly to 10) almost
>always shuts down the machine. 
>
>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:44:14 +0100, Salvador Freemanson wrote:
>> My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
>> (frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
>
>If your system _frequently_ freezes then there's probably already
>something wrong. My guess would be that the hdd was broken all the time,
>you just have not noticed as it trashed a system file once in a while. But
>once somethings wrong on the platter surface you can count on it getting
>worse over time.
>
>Cheers & good luck with a new drive
>Volker

0
hdzi1 (103)
12/1/2003 3:52:49 AM
Re: "I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery 
should not damage the hardware in any way."

You are at least potentially wrong in two ways, neither obvious:

1.  If the drive is writing as the power is removed, the low-level 
format of the drive can be destroyed.  It usually won't happen, but it's 
possible.  If this is the extent of the damage, the drive is repairable 
by low-level format, which can be done in the field on some drives, but 
only in the factory on others.

2.  More to the point, removing the battery is going to involve physical 
movement and may impart a sufficient mechanical shock to the drive 
during a critical operational phase (spin-down) to cause a head crash. 
It's not actually the removal of power that's the issue in this 
instance, it's the the mechanical shock.  Obviously, this depends on how 
the laptop is handled, and is unpredictable.


H. Dziardziel wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:03:21 -0500, Volker Braun
> <volker.braun@physik.hu-berlin.de> wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery should
>>not damage the hardware in any way. All current harddrives will auto-park
>>as soon as power is cut. 
>>
>>In case anybody wonders how this is possible, the rotational energy of the
>>spindle and maybe a capacitor can provide power for a few moments.
>>Harddrives are even more intelligent than that and will complete any
>>transaction, e.g. finish writing a sector. Still amazes me how all this
>>fits into a 2.5" hdd.
>>
> 
> 
> Today's laptop harddrives are marvels of engineering that can
> withstand amazing  vibration and shock even while operating within
> several  degrees of any of the 6 axes which includes upside down.
> 
> However, not only are there limits to the type including
> repetition frequency of such events (shock and vibration),
> operation outside the axes is not within these specifications.
> That is a separate  non-operating parameter for shock withstand
> for movement/shipping .
> 
> Drives are designed to go through a software/hardware power-off
> sequence.  This ensures all data is written and the mechanism
> safely idled and parked in a shipping/movement configuration..
> 
> Yes, today's drives have  emergency power-off (actually power
> loss) features that do actually use the inertial rotational
> -magnetic energy in reverse to try and cushion against mechanical
> damage due to sudden loss of power..
> 
>  However: this design presupposes  drives operating in one of the
> axes, and even so there can be data loss as writing may be not
> completed.   There are also only a limited (albeit many) number of
> such emergency power off cycles designed in.. 
> 
>  Even in one of the axes this is a  very mechanically stressful
> event so _not_. recommended.   Outside an axis the result is
> _unpredictable_. 
> .
> .When removing a pack the laptop is likely to be angled and
> jostled.  So as outlined above, even with an idle drive this is a
> not a good thing to do until suspend has fully completed (or the
> laptop powered off of course).
> 
>  On those rare occasions when even depressing the power or suspend
> button (try each individually and in combination for up to about
> 10 seconds) does not shut off the laptop  wait until the drive
> does not have head movement, and seems to have idled (usually a
> parking sound after some minutes);   Then  turn it over or on its
> side if need be.  Wait a bit more then remove the pack all this
> with  minimal vibration while the laptop remains perfectly
> horizontal or vertical
> .  
> Again, this is _not_ a recommended normal procedure.  One of the
> drives "nine lives" are being used with unpredictable
> consequences.
> .
> 
>>Of course removing the battery it is still a very clumsy thing to do,
>>pushing the powerbutton for a few seconds (count slowly to 10) almost
>>always shuts down the machine. 
>>
>>On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:44:14 +0100, Salvador Freemanson wrote:
>>
>>>My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
>>>(frequently)  hangs by removing the battery.
>>
>>If your system _frequently_ freezes then there's probably already
>>something wrong. My guess would be that the hdd was broken all the time,
>>you just have not noticed as it trashed a system file once in a while. But
>>once somethings wrong on the platter surface you can count on it getting
>>worse over time.
>>
>>Cheers & good luck with a new drive
>>Volker
> 
> 

0
WatzmanNOSPAM (5711)
12/1/2003 5:54:32 AM
Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> Re: "I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery 
> should not damage the hardware in any way."

> You are at least potentially wrong in two ways, neither obvious:

> 1.  If the drive is writing as the power is removed, the low-level 
> format of the drive can be destroyed.  It usually won't happen, but it's 
> possible.  If this is the extent of the damage, the drive is repairable 
> by low-level format, which can be done in the field on some drives, but 
> only in the factory on others.

This can happen (if it can happen) in any physical power down at all.
So that's not a valid objection.  (My experience is that it can happen
in power cuts on desktops, whatever the drive manufacturers like to
say).

And I know of no ide disk built in the last 6 years which has had a "low
level format" capability.  The format presented at the pins is all
logical, not physical.  The physical arrangement is buried deep within
layers of drive electronics. You'd need forensic equipment to find the
physical layout.

I think what you are trying to suggest is that you really need software
assistence to do a safe powerdown nowadays, with large disk caches and
all ...  That involves shutting down the o/s so that it stops writing
to the disk, and letting the disk cache drain, and the disk quiesce
before finally cutting the power to it.

Yeah, well, fine. If the power switch on the laptop *deliberately* does
that, I'm a dutchman, and I'm not. It may accidentally do it, by way of
signalling the o/s to do a sync as an apm or acpi event is received,
but there is no (other) special electronics involved! 

> 2.  More to the point, removing the battery is going to involve physical 
> movement and may impart a sufficient mechanical shock to the drive 

I at least take my battery out by pressing the button slider underneath
the case with the laptop in the normal position, and letting the battery
drop down into my open hand.  So that's not necessarily a valid
objection either.

> during a critical operational phase (spin-down) to cause a head crash. 

Drive heads float on an air cushion, and it takes quite a whack to drop
them to a physical surface.  Taking out a battery does not deliver such
a whack.

> It's not actually the removal of power that's the issue in this 
> instance, it's the the mechanical shock.  Obviously, this depends on how 
> the laptop is handled, and is unpredictable.

As in "completely out of the question".

Peter
0
ptb (2760)
12/1/2003 10:50:15 AM
Some of the drive makers do offer a true low-level format program for 
their drives.  For example, the Maxtor diagnostic on their modern 
(current generation) drives has a "write pack" option.  It takes 6 hours 
on an 80 gig drive, and it is a true low-level format, it rewrites 
sector headers, it may even rewrite the servo information but I'm not 
sure of that.

The question of mechanical shock when removing the battery varies by 
model.  On quite a few laptops, you have to turn the laptop upside down 
or on it's side, and you have to remove covers that don't remove smoothly.


P.T. Breuer wrote:
> Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> 
>>Re: "I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery 
>>should not damage the hardware in any way."
> 
> 
>>You are at least potentially wrong in two ways, neither obvious:
> 
> 
>>1.  If the drive is writing as the power is removed, the low-level 
>>format of the drive can be destroyed.  It usually won't happen, but it's 
>>possible.  If this is the extent of the damage, the drive is repairable 
>>by low-level format, which can be done in the field on some drives, but 
>>only in the factory on others.
> 
> 
> This can happen (if it can happen) in any physical power down at all.
> So that's not a valid objection.  (My experience is that it can happen
> in power cuts on desktops, whatever the drive manufacturers like to
> say).
> 
> And I know of no ide disk built in the last 6 years which has had a "low
> level format" capability.  The format presented at the pins is all
> logical, not physical.  The physical arrangement is buried deep within
> layers of drive electronics. You'd need forensic equipment to find the
> physical layout.
> 
> I think what you are trying to suggest is that you really need software
> assistence to do a safe powerdown nowadays, with large disk caches and
> all ...  That involves shutting down the o/s so that it stops writing
> to the disk, and letting the disk cache drain, and the disk quiesce
> before finally cutting the power to it.
> 
> Yeah, well, fine. If the power switch on the laptop *deliberately* does
> that, I'm a dutchman, and I'm not. It may accidentally do it, by way of
> signalling the o/s to do a sync as an apm or acpi event is received,
> but there is no (other) special electronics involved! 
> 
> 
>>2.  More to the point, removing the battery is going to involve physical 
>>movement and may impart a sufficient mechanical shock to the drive 
> 
> 
> I at least take my battery out by pressing the button slider underneath
> the case with the laptop in the normal position, and letting the battery
> drop down into my open hand.  So that's not necessarily a valid
> objection either.
> 
> 
>>during a critical operational phase (spin-down) to cause a head crash. 
> 
> 
> Drive heads float on an air cushion, and it takes quite a whack to drop
> them to a physical surface.  Taking out a battery does not deliver such
> a whack.
> 
> 
>>It's not actually the removal of power that's the issue in this 
>>instance, it's the the mechanical shock.  Obviously, this depends on how 
>>the laptop is handled, and is unpredictable.
> 
> 
> As in "completely out of the question".
> 
> Peter

0
WatzmanNOSPAM (5711)
12/1/2003 1:57:54 PM
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:54:32 GMT, Barry Watzman
<WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:

>Re: "I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery 
>should not damage the hardware in any way."


I was only guessing that the cause had been removing the battery. 
He does (or rather, did) it very often and I'm always telling him not
to. It suits me for him to believe that was the reason for the
failure.

Another possible cause: He had brought the computer to me with because
it had an incredibly large number of viruses on it and he had been
aked to leave his university network until he got the viruses fixed. I
installed McAfee (he didn't have any anti-virus software at all), but
it didn't manage to eliminate everything.

Finally, I reformatted the disc and installed Win 98. (he had
previously had Win2k). The installation went withough problems at all.
He came back a few days later with the problem I mentioned here
originally, i.e. what I believed to be some kind of scratch.

Is it possible for viruses to case defects of this sort?

By the way, it's an IBM Travelstar adrive, which certainly wasn't the
one orignally in the laptop (a Zitech/Assus). The drive also makes a
very large amount of noise, which would go in the same direction as
the theory that the disc is already giving trouble. Nevertheless, it
did format without any problem when I installed the OS.



0
spam152 (134)
12/1/2003 4:44:55 PM
I agree that it does place some additional stress on the drive and should
be avoided, but I still do not think that you can do any damage if you
remove the battery carefully a few dozen times over the expected lifetime
(5 years or so before obsolete) of the hdd/notebook.

Kicking the drive during an emergency-powerdown is of course a no-no. But
current hdd's can take >100g during operation, so if you are at least
moderately careful you should be able to stay below 1% while removing the
battery. Sounds safe to me.

Best,
Volker


0
12/1/2003 4:54:25 PM
Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:54:32 GMT, Barry Watzman
> <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> 
> >Re: "I'll have to contradict the other posters, but removing the battery
> >should not damage the hardware in any way."
> 
> I was only guessing that the cause had been removing the battery.
> He does (or rather, did) it very often and I'm always telling him not
> to. It suits me for him to believe that was the reason for the
> failure.
> 
> Another possible cause: He had brought the computer to me with because
> it had an incredibly large number of viruses on it and he had been
> aked to leave his university network until he got the viruses fixed. I
> installed McAfee (he didn't have any anti-virus software at all), but
> it didn't manage to eliminate everything.

With all due respect, does your son ride the "short bus" to college?

I know a father feels as though it's his responsibility to take care of his
kids, but maybe it's time to let him screw up and fix his own problems.

Sorry to go off-topic...

Larry
0
lglasser (236)
12/1/2003 4:58:58 PM
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:58:58 GMT, Lawrence Glasser
<lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote:

>
>With all due respect, does your son ride the "short bus" to college?


I don't quite know what you mean. Last year he had a room in hall,
with a LAN access point in his room.


>I know a father feels as though it's his responsibility to take care of his
>kids, but maybe it's time to let him screw up and fix his own problems.

He simply put the laptop under his bed for two months and uses other
computers on the campus. I figured I'd better try and sort out the PC
myself.
>
>Sorry to go off-topic...
>
>Larry

0
spam152 (134)
12/1/2003 5:11:39 PM
Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 16:58:58 GMT, Lawrence Glasser
> <lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >With all due respect, does your son ride the "short bus" to college?
> 
> I don't quite know what you mean. Last year he had a room in hall,
> with a LAN access point in his room.
> 
> >I know a father feels as though it's his responsibility to take care of his
> >kids, but maybe it's time to let him screw up and fix his own problems.
> 
> He simply put the laptop under his bed for two months and uses other
> computers on the campus. I figured I'd better try and sort out the PC
> myself.

"My teenage son has a habit of restarting his laptop when the system
(frequently) hangs by removing the battery."

"He had brought the computer to me with because it had an incredibly large
number of viruses on it and he had been asked to leave his university network
until he got the viruses fixed."

It's time to cut the apron strings.

*He* removed the battery.

*He* allowed viruses to invade his system. (In this day and age, it's
absolutely inexcusable to not have some type of anti-virus installed,
*especially* if you're on a LAN or WAN.)

Part of college is learning resposibility, if it hasn't been learned,
already. There comes a time when a parent has to say, "You're on your
own." In this case, "If you can't take care of your laptop, you won't
have a laptop."

Larry
0
lglasser (236)
12/1/2003 5:39:30 PM
Barry Watzman <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> 2.  More to the point, removing the battery is going to involve physical 
> movement and may impart a sufficient mechanical shock to the drive 
> during a critical operational phase (spin-down) to cause a head crash. 
> It's not actually the removal of power that's the issue in this 
> instance, it's the the mechanical shock.  Obviously, this depends on how 
> the laptop is handled, and is unpredictable.

Consider too that if the person removing the battery is doing so because of
a frustration about software problems, he is not likely to be particularly
gentle with the procedure.

0
nomail13 (304)
12/1/2003 7:09:37 PM
I'll agree with that, but that doesn't fix the problem, just hides it. This has the unfortunate effect of making it look like it
fixed it to the not so computer savvy.

-- 


----------------------------------------------------------------
"Barry Watzman" <WatzmanNOSPAM@neo.rr.com> wrote in message news:3FCAA428.3070900@neo.rr.com...
> Sometimes a true low-level format can fix a problem.  If this is
> possible for a given drive (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't), the
> software to do it is only available from the drive manufacturer.
>
> However, what quite a few other programs can do is find the bad sector
> and "mark" that sector as bad in the operating system's allocation
> tables (the "FAT" table in FAT drives, NTFS as a functionally equivalent
> data structure).
>
> This does not really "fix" the problem in terms of making the sector
> "good" again.  But it does tell the operating system that this sector
> (cluster, actually) is bad, don't use it, and the operating system will
> from that point forward ignore and never again use that sector to
> contain data.  The matter of whether this is a "fix" thus becomes a
> matter of semantics, but if that is the extent of the problem, and the
> drive is otherwise stable, the user will experience no more problems
> with that drive.
>
> Unfortunately, it is often the case that when a drive fails, more and
> more and more sectors fail in a cascading torrent of failure that soon
> makes simply ignoring the bad sectors impossible.  But not always.
>
>
>
> David B. wrote:
>
> > Scandisk cannot nor was it ever able to fix a hardware problem with a drive, you won't find a software package that will.
> >
>


0
brooks.dj (19)
12/2/2003 1:25:54 AM
On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:39:30 GMT, Lawrence Glasser
<lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote:

>
>Part of college is learning resposibility, if it hasn't been learned,
>already. There comes a time when a parent has to say, "You're on your
>own." In this case, "If you can't take care of your laptop, you won't
>have a laptop."

You're probably right. However, I could have replaced the words "my
son" with "a friend" or "a customer".

People turn to other people for help on all kinds of things. That is
exactly what this newsgroup is all about.


0
spam152 (134)
12/2/2003 5:15:53 AM
Salvador Freemanson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:39:30 GMT, Lawrence Glasser
> <lglasser@spamcop.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >Part of college is learning resposibility, if it hasn't been learned,
> >already. There comes a time when a parent has to say, "You're on your
> >own." In this case, "If you can't take care of your laptop, you won't
> >have a laptop."
> 
> You're probably right. However, I could have replaced the words "my
> son" with "a friend" or "a customer".
> 
> People turn to other people for help on all kinds of things. That is
> exactly what this newsgroup is all about.

Absolutely true.

But, in your own words, "He does (or rather, did) it very often and I'm
always telling him not to..."

To me, that spells irresponsible.

My opinion. Maybe others'. Maybe not.

Larry
0
lglasser (236)
12/2/2003 6:31:50 AM
Reply: